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View Full Version : Andaman Island tribe(Onge related) killed a trespassing tourist/missionary



poi
11-22-2018, 04:46 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/21/asia/andaman-nicobar-us-missionary-killed-intl/index.html

People should leave these tribes alone... They number only like 500 and are susceptible to diseases

Detailed article here http://www.ladbible.com/news/news-american-missionary-killed-with-arrows-by-tribe-on-indian-island-20181121?c=1542803291199

thejkhan
11-22-2018, 05:03 AM
People don't learn. Don't mess with the Sentinelese!

RougeS
11-22-2018, 05:13 AM
Great! These missonaries are pure cancer feeding lies and deception to ignorant people.

pegasus
11-22-2018, 05:24 AM
The guy is a moron and serves him right, reading Swiss Robinson Crusoe was living out some childhood fantasy but put these Andaman Islanders at risk. That sweet spot where stupidity and religion meet.

Raised in Vancouver, Washington, Chau was first drawn to the outdoors after discovering a copy of "Robinson Crusoe" while in elementary school, he said in an article several years ago in The Outbound Collective, a website and app that helps people discover the outdoor
He and his brother would paint their faces with wild blackberry juice and run around their backyard with bows and spears made from sticks...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/21/us/missionary-john-chau/index.html


"The Sentinelese have shown again and again that they want to be left alone, and their wishes should be respected," the group said. "The British colonial occupation of the Andaman Islands decimated the tribes living there, wiping out thousands of tribes people, and only a fraction of the original population now survive. So, the Sentinelese fear of outsiders is very understandable.

poi
11-22-2018, 05:35 AM
People don't learn. Don't mess with the Sentinelese!

If AASI were this militaristic, we would have found lots of pure Iran_N and pure Steppe aDNA in India. :biggrin1:

pegasus
11-22-2018, 06:02 AM
If AASI were this militaristic, we would have found lots of pure Iran_N and pure Steppe aDNA in India. :biggrin1:

Ironically their relatively closest descendants like the Khonda Dora form part of the hard as nails guerillla groups like the Naxalites.

poi
11-22-2018, 06:08 AM
Ironically their relatively closest descendants like the Khonda Dora form part of the hard as nails guerillla groups like the Naxalites.

https://i.imgur.com/3N0QDsyr.png

thejkhan
11-22-2018, 06:17 AM
https://i.imgur.com/3N0QDsyr.png

Quite similar to distribution of Austroasiatic speaking people.

Censored
11-22-2018, 06:28 AM
When it comes to really stupid people like this, I don't know whether to feel empathy or not.

pegasus
11-22-2018, 06:32 AM
@Khan, Khonda Dora are Dravidian speakers tho, whether they are an isolated genome or got recent SE Asian rice farmer mixture is open to debate. I think they are archaic.

thejkhan
11-22-2018, 06:35 AM
@Khan, Khonda Dora are Dravidian speakers tho, whether they are an isolated genome or got recent SE Asian rice farmer mixture

Or a recent, elite dominated language shift.

bmoney
11-22-2018, 06:40 AM
Or a recent, elite dominated language shift.

Like the Gond

Our allele frequency and haplotype-based analyses reveal that the Gond share substantial genetic ancestry with the Indian Austroasiatic (ie, Munda) groups, rather than with the other Dravidian groups to whom they are most closely related linguistically.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5386418/

And my speculation here, but similar to later elite-dominance based language shift from Maharastrian/Konkan and Gujarati Dravidian speakers to Indo-Aryan languages given the genetics

An unusual feature of Marathi, as compared to other Indo-European languages, is that it displays inclusive and exclusive we also found in Rajasthani and Gujarati and common to the Austronesian and Dravidian languages. Other similarities to Dravidian include the extensive use of participial constructions[71] and also to a certain extent the use of the two anaphoric pronouns swətah and apəṇ.[74] Numerous scholars have noted the existence of Dravidian linguistic patterns in the Marathi language.[75]

In its phonology it contrasts apico-alveolar with alveopalatal affricates and, in common with Gujarati, alveolar with retroflex laterals ([l] and [ɭ], Marathi letters ल and ळ respectively).[12]

Marathi distinguishes inclusive and exclusive forms of 'we' and possesses a three-way gender system that features the neuter in addition to the masculine and the feminine.

bmoney
11-22-2018, 06:48 AM
@Khan, Khonda Dora are Dravidian speakers tho, whether they are an isolated genome or got recent SE Asian rice farmer mixture is open to debate. I think they are archaic.

Judging by the map they seem to be archaic as SE Asia is red outside the Andamans, so sounds about right

poi
11-22-2018, 06:51 AM
Judging by the map they seem to be archaic as SE Asia is red outside the Andamans, so sounds about right

SE Asians have likely additional recent East Asian.

I am trying to get the maps done with all modern groups assigned their longitude/latitude by tomorrow... Should be interesting to see.

Censored
11-22-2018, 07:07 AM
On another note, I really hope those islanders weren't exposed to dangerous pathogens from contact with this dude. They have no immunity to our diseases at all and apparently they were seen burying him on the beach.

pegasus
11-22-2018, 07:44 AM
Judging by the map they seem to be archaic as SE Asia is red outside the Andamans, so sounds about right

Superficially they are quite similar to Gond but they clearly have an archaic shift towards to Onge and Neolithic Hoabinhians from SE Asia before Chinese rice farmers flooded the region and cluster towards them, so that cannot be recent admixture. I doubt there is an elite dominance factor as there plenty of Munda speakers not far from these people but my hunch is they are ancient.

pegasus
11-22-2018, 07:46 AM
SE Asians have likely additional recent East Asian.

I am trying to get the maps done with all modern groups assigned their longitude/latitude by tomorrow... Should be interesting to see.

What Iran_N is to South Asia , Chinese rice farmers are to SE Asia

thejkhan
11-22-2018, 07:50 AM
What Iran_N is to South Asia , Chinese rice farmers are to SE Asia

Would you classify the early Austronesians as Chinese rice farmers?

pegasus
11-22-2018, 08:56 AM
Would you classify the early Austronesians as Chinese rice farmers?

NO, early Austronesians arrived from the north before Chinese rice farmers, but the recent paper advocates a 2 way model, akin to what happened in Neolithic Europe and South Asia.


341 The clear genetic distinction between the Onge-like Hoabinhian and EA Neolithic
342 demonstrated by this study provides an overwhelming support for the Two Layer model and
343 indicates that in SEA, like in Europe, the onset of agriculture was accompanied by a
344 demographic transition

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/03/08/278374.DC1/278374-1.pdf

Awale
11-22-2018, 11:52 AM
Lol, this truly is an Anthro-forum. A lounge thread about some missionary being killed has seen stuff like Chinese rice-farmers and their effect on Southeast Asians come up. I love this place sometimes. :lol: As for the Mr. Chau... I mostly agree with the other people who've posted in this thread.


NO, early Austronesians arrived from the north before Chinese rice farmers, but the recent paper advocates a 2 way model, akin to what happened in Neolithic Europe and South Asia.


341 The clear genetic distinction between the Onge-like Hoabinhian and EA Neolithic
342 demonstrated by this study provides an overwhelming support for the Two Layer model and
343 indicates that in SEA, like in Europe, the onset of agriculture was accompanied by a
344 demographic transition

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/03/08/278374.DC1/278374-1.pdf

Pretty crazy how much agriculture and things related to it (i.e. metallurgy thanks to the specialization agriculture allows) changed up the world's genomic landscape. World would be a little more phenotypically and genotypically interesting if it wasn't for expansions from areas like West-Africa, Eastern China and the Fertile Crescent into surrounding regions heavily gobbling up the prior HG populations.

JonikW
11-22-2018, 11:35 PM
I admire the guy's courage for going in. Looks like they've created a nightmarish violent society. Still, better bows and arrows than nuclear missiles, I suppose. Anyway, I'm sure my view won't be popular...

Censored
11-22-2018, 11:40 PM
I admire the guy's courage for going in. Looks like they've created a nightmarish violent society. Still, better bows and arrows than nuclear missiles, I suppose. Anyway, I'm sure my view won't be popular...

I wouldn't describe that as courage. Idiocy sounds more like it.

poi
11-22-2018, 11:50 PM
I admire the guy's courage for going in. Looks like they've created a nightmarish violent society. Still, better bows and arrows than nuclear missiles, I suppose. Anyway, I'm sure my view won't be popular...

Courage + stupidity rolled into one adventurous package. This might offend some, but that guy is just living out the old "savages are ripe for harvesting" and/or "civilize the savages" mentality.

JonikW
11-23-2018, 12:15 AM
Well, for me it's courage. A lot of courage. I just feel sorry for the people who have to live under whatever brutal regime they've created there. Those who benefit have obviously got a lot to lose. One thing's for sure, there will be some fascinating life stories unfolded when it ends.

Censored
11-23-2018, 12:21 AM
Well, for me it's courage. A lot of courage. I just feel sorry for the people who have to live under whatever brutal regime they've created there. Those who benefit have obviously got a lot to lose. One thing's for sure, there will be some fascinating life stories unfolded when it ends.

There is no "regime" there nor is there any kind of civilization. The people are living in pre-neolithic times i.e. the stone age. They have not advanced beyond that, probably dont know how to make fire yet even.

bmoney
11-23-2018, 12:27 AM
Well, for me it's courage. A lot of courage. I just feel sorry for the people who have to live under whatever brutal regime they've created there. Those who benefit have obviously got a lot to lose. One thing's for sure, there will be some fascinating life stories unfolded when it ends.

I guess its a stupid kind of courage

But most people are ticked off by the:

- arrogance of some Christian missionaries
- the fact that this guy could have wiped out the small number of these people that still exist via infections their immune systems havent adapted to

poi
11-23-2018, 12:34 AM
Well, for me it's courage. A lot of courage. I just feel sorry for the people who have to live under whatever brutal regime they've created there. Those who benefit have obviously got a lot to lose. One thing's for sure, there will be some fascinating life stories unfolded when it ends.

In normal circumstances, who can argue against spreading freedom, democracy lol, even the word of god, but not in this case.

These Andaman Islanders are some of the last remaining purest hunter gatherers with absolutely NO IMMUNITY to outside diseases. You don't have to worry about their regimes and dictatorships, they are not bothering anyone and want to be left alone. That Alabama guy could have brought his dormant virus/bacteria and wipe out the last remaining folks that had already been decimated by outside contact in the last 300 years.

JonikW
11-23-2018, 01:05 AM
Well, we all have our views and I knew mine wouldn't be popular here. I don't see anything to admire about a violent primitive lifestyle. It's interesting for us but I'm sure has few benefits for many who are subjected to it. Good luck to them all. I hope when that society opens up it works out well. Sadly our track record isn't good on that front as we all know. Humans, capable of so much yet always dragging ourselves down while also displaying true value. That never changes, from flints to Silicon Valley.

poi
11-23-2018, 01:29 AM
Well, we all have our views and I knew mine wouldn't be popular here. I don't see anything to admire about a violent primitive lifestyle. It's interesting for us but I'm sure has few benefits for many who are subjected to it. Good luck to them all. I hope when that society opens up it works out well. Sadly our track record isn't good on that front as we all know. Humans, capable of so much yet always dragging ourselves down while also displaying true value. That never changes, from flints to Silicon Valley.

I don't think anyone is "admiring" the tribals, but wanting them to be left alone so that they are not subject to biological genocide.

JonikW
11-23-2018, 01:37 AM
I don't think anyone is "admiring" the tribals, but wanting them to be left alone so that they are not subject to biological genocide.

That's a big issue of course and is just a question of time. Surely it'll be a few decades at most. I hope nothing bad happens if they go in to collect the body as is apparently planned.

Vrump
11-23-2018, 01:56 AM
There is no interest in evangelizing them, especially since Christianity does not correspond to their origin (what interest for them to follow a Semitic religion, as the Europeans were able to do).

Even if I'm totally indifferent to what might happen to them in the future, I think they have to stay as they are, they stay in their island.

But it's still funny to see the tenacity of Christians. It's almost "admirable".

thejkhan
11-23-2018, 03:50 AM
(what interest for them to follow a Semitic religion, as the Europeans were able to do).


Can the same not be said about African Christians? Native American Chirstians? No doubt there are efforts to convert every remote tribe to Christianity.

pegasus
11-23-2018, 05:28 AM
I admire the guy's courage for going in. Looks like they've created a nightmarish violent society. Still, better bows and arrows than nuclear missiles, I suppose. Anyway, I'm sure my view won't be popular...

Courage ? Did you miss the point that its banned for the safety of those natives , on top of which its illegal. If someone puts their hand over an open flame thats not courage its stupidity. If he really cared about those Sentinelese natives, their health and well being would be of utmost prudence, not going on the island to tell them my flying spaghetti monster is better than yours.

Rahuls77
11-23-2018, 05:29 AM
Can the same not be said about African Christians? Native American Chirstians? No doubt there are efforts to convert every remote tribe to Christianity.

Americas' colonisation pretty much mirrored this same thought process or ideology. I recall Winston Churchill's dog in the manger speech, which echoed this.

alexfritz
11-23-2018, 06:12 AM
what i dont get is if the natives are that vulnarable to diseases
who figured that out? surly not the natives and their medical facilities
and isnt this also the area in which malaysia370 was last seen? i dont buy it

agent_lime
11-23-2018, 06:21 AM
Can the same not be said about African Christians? Native American Chirstians? No doubt there are efforts to convert every remote tribe to Christianity.

Yes, it's called the Joshua Project. Completely disgusting what these ignorant people are doing in India and Africa.

https://joshuaproject.net/

Look at what they are doing in India-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3c1_5OQpCc

agent_lime
11-23-2018, 06:25 AM
what i dont get is if the natives are that vulnarable to diseases
who figured that out? surly not the natives and their medical facilities
and isnt this also the area in which malaysia370 was last seen? i dont buy it

What's so hard about it? They have not been exposed to modern bacteria and viruses. A lot of immunity comes from drinking mothers milk, and your community. They don't have immunity so they will die, or get very sick. Something that this person took to the island could easily wipe out the whole tribe. Plus these people DO NOT want outside contact, and dgaf about some dude 2000 years ago in a desert half way around the world.

thejkhan
11-23-2018, 06:26 AM
what i dont get is if the natives are that vulnarable to diseases
who figured that out? surly not the natives and their medical facilities
and isnt this also the area in which malaysia370 was last seen? i dont buy it

The other islands had huge population decline since first contact with outsiders. Some tribes even went extinct.

This particular tribe in Sentinel island is extremely hostile to outsiders and the fact that they are alive and thriving proves status quo is good for them.

Any prolonged contact with visitors will probably lead to same fate as those more unfortunate tribes.

alexfritz
11-23-2018, 06:48 AM
What's so hard about it? They have not been exposed to modern bacteria and viruses. A lot of immunity comes from drinking mothers milk, and your community. They don't have immunity so they will die, or get very sick. Something that this person took to the island could easily wipe out the whole tribe. Plus these people DO NOT want outside contact, and dgaf about some dude 2000 years ago in a desert half way around the world.

forget about the dude and his intentions, but the whole concept that an island is off limits because of a native tribe and its sensitivity and hostility and then you people and airplanes disappearing, thats just a wild story;

agent_lime
11-23-2018, 06:58 AM
forget about the dude and his intentions, but the whole concept that an island is off limits because of a native tribe and its sensitivity and hostility and then you people and airplanes disappearing, thats just a wild story;

These people have no technology. And the Indian government cooperates with international search and rescue. Fishing boats go through the whole Andamans and India's EEZ. No one has prevented anyone for looking for the plane. If the plane had crashed on an island it would have been long discovered, as India has probably the best remote sensing satellites in the world. Please stop with idle rumors and conspiracy theories.

poi
11-23-2018, 07:03 AM
forget about the dude and his intentions, but the whole concept that an island is off limits because of a native tribe and its sensitivity and hostility and then you people and airplanes disappearing, thats just a wild story;

You can't be seriously thinking of some conspiracy theory about the "missing" Malaysian airline that somehow is intact in the Andaman Islands. If you don't, the answer seems obvious -- the isolated tribes need protection from foreign pathogens or their numbers (already dwindling) will be reduced further.

edit - I hope that you are somehow right that there is another reason for this offlimit territory. But, sadly, the only reason seems to be for the tribes' well being.

David Mc
11-23-2018, 11:14 PM
The tone of this thread is disappointing to say the least. Whatever people think about the man, his beliefs, or his choices, it isn't too much to expect a modicum of civility, especially on Anthrogenica which (up until now) hasn't been the kind of place where people celebrated the killing of other people with whom they disagree.

pegasus
11-23-2018, 11:24 PM
The tone of this thread is disappointing to say the least. Whatever people think about the man, his beliefs, or his choices, it isn't too much to expect a modicum of civility, especially on Anthrogenica which (up until now) hasn't been the kind of place where people celebrated the killing of other people with whom they disagree.

NO actually whats more disappointing is that because one person's stupidity and lack of basic science knowledge put an entire community at risk for diseases they don't have immunity for. No need to misconstrue what I or what others wrote. If you still have issues with it, there is a logout option on the top right of the screen.

poi
11-23-2018, 11:24 PM
The tone of this thread is disappointing to say the least. Whatever people think about the man, his beliefs, or his choices, it isn't too much to expect a modicum of civility, especially on Anthrogenica which (up until now) hasn't been the kind of place where people celebrated the killing of other people with whom they disagree.

I don't think anyone is celebrating the killing, but highlighting the utter disregard the guy had for the tribes. I guess his death was mocked here, so I can see how you would think of that as celebration of his death. His actions could unleash virus/germs that could wipe out the last remaining isolated tribe.

Mods - remove this thread if you think there is celebration of the death.

Administrator
11-23-2018, 11:41 PM
ADMIN

Two posts removed (one of which will result in an infraction) per section 3.10:



3.10 Certain standards of quality control will be enforced to ensure a productive forum atmosphere. Invectives and posts devoid of substance (e.g. threads or replies consisting solely of inflammatory content or triviality) will be considered junk postings and deleted. Breaches in basic forum etiquette include (and are not limited to) cross-posting different threads, consecutive posting in existing threads and reviving old threads whose course of discussion has long since expired ("necro-bumping").


We consider violent rhetoric to be inflammatory content and devoid of substance.

Please continue to post in this thread in keeping with our Terms. The administration is watching this thread. Thanks in advance.

thejkhan
11-23-2018, 11:43 PM
The tone of this thread is disappointing to say the least. Whatever people think about the man, his beliefs, or his choices, it isn't too much to expect a modicum of civility, especially on Anthrogenica which (up until now) hasn't been the kind of place where people celebrated the killing of other people with whom they disagree.

That's very nice of you, but I don't think this guy respected his own life. First day he went to meet tribals (breaking law), an arrow pierced his bible and he narrowly escaped. Next day he goes again and gets killed.

It's in the same category as those "selfie deaths". How do people react online? They laugh.

There is nothing to celebrate. Natives are still at risk because his body was buried in the beach.

Censored
11-24-2018, 12:33 AM
The tone of this thread is disappointing to say the least. Whatever people think about the man, his beliefs, or his choices, it isn't too much to expect a modicum of civility, especially on Anthrogenica which (up until now) hasn't been the kind of place where people celebrated the killing of other people with whom they disagree.

If you read the news stories, it's pretty clear the guy knew that his own life was in danger but proceeded anyway.


The source, who asked not to be named, said Chau wrote that he was "doing this to establish the kingdom of Jesus on the island...Do not blame the natives if I am killed."

From the Mirror. So what the guy above me said is right, he wasn't just ignorant, he was doing something he knew damn well not to do. It was a tragedy as far as Im concerned but in general most people lack sympathy for people who are extremely reckless/stupid such as drunk drivers, hard drug abusers, and yes, this guy.
And I doubt anyone here seriously enjoys his death, they're just upset that someone could do something so arrogant/reckless that endangered not only himself but others. So the comments should be put in context. I dont think bmoney should have gotten an infraction for that.

poi
11-24-2018, 12:39 AM
If you read the news stories, it's pretty clear the guy knew that his own life was in danger but proceeded anyway.



From the Mirror. So what the guy above me said is right, he wasn't just ignorant, he was doing something he knew damn well not to do. It was a tragedy as far as Im concerned but in general most people lack sympathy for people who are extremely reckless/stupid such as drunk drivers, hard drug abusers, and yes, this guy.
And I doubt anyone here seriously enjoys his death, they're just upset that someone could do something so arrogant/reckless that endangered not only himself but others. So the comments should be put in context. I dont think bmoney should have gotten an infraction for that.

Precisely. And even if the guy had not died and came back home with his mission "completed successfully", he would have gotten even more scorn. He died, so people kind of feel sorry for him and praise his "courage to civilize the natives", but had he survived, he would have been dragged into the court by the Indian government. And jailed, most likely. And mocked online.

agent_lime
11-24-2018, 06:27 AM
The tone of this thread is disappointing to say the least. Whatever people think about the man, his beliefs, or his choices, it isn't too much to expect a modicum of civility, especially on Anthrogenica which (up until now) hasn't been the kind of place where people celebrated the killing of other people with whom they disagree.

I think there is resistance here, because this board has a lot of expats. A lot of us have had religion forced down our throats in the west. People have certainly tried to save me multiple times. I don't want to complain too much because I freely choose to move to another country. With all this said, India is a secular country and people are free to preach whatever they want. Evangelicals come into India(and Africa) bribing, cheating, causing conflict, behaving unethically, dividing families, causing communal tension etc. There are multiple anti gay, trans laws in Africa caused by American/ European Evangelical Pastors and western money.

We are not savages that need saving. I wish Evangelicals would leave local cultures and religion alone. What the ignorant person did is not only insulting but harmful to natives of the island. If you jump into a pit of crocodiles knowingly people are not going to feel sorry for you. Instead of this I hope he had been caught, and send to jail for a few months; then banned from ever traveling to India.

poi
11-24-2018, 08:13 AM
I guess "modernization" is happening regardless and these tribes will cease to exist, as has already started to happen to other Andaman tribes like the Jarawas. Beautiful location + exotic culture = tourism boom.

https://www.thehindu.com/society/how-an-expensive-transport-project-in-the-andamans-threatens-the-jarawa-tribe/article25576877.ece

Censored
11-24-2018, 08:29 AM
I guess "modernization" is happening regardless and these tribes will cease to exist, as has already started to happen to other Andaman tribes like the Jarawas. Beautiful location + exotic culture = tourism boom.

https://www.thehindu.com/society/how-an-expensive-transport-project-in-the-andamans-threatens-the-jarawa-tribe/article25576877.ece

I think the Sentinelese will do fine as long as the current policy is maintained. The Jarawa, less sure about those guys but their numbers are still healthy and they've still maintained their way of life. I'm really worried about the Onge-only 100 of them left and they're entirely dependent on the government, high child mortality rates, etc. And the Great Andamanese are basically extinct with few to no pure individuals left afaik. Really sad what happened to these small and helpless tribes. It makes you all the more upset about the incident which took place a couple days ago.

khanabadoshi
11-24-2018, 10:32 AM
I don't think anyone is celebrating the killing, but highlighting the utter disregard the guy had for the tribes. I guess his death was mocked here, so I can see how you would think of that as celebration of his death. His actions could unleash virus/germs that could wipe out the last remaining isolated tribe.

Mods - remove this thread if you think there is celebration of the death.

I'm considering closing the thread for very different reasons. It's a current event article discussing a topic, the nature of which, comes packaged with inherent religious/colonial subtexts. The article involves a group of people whose genetics are of interest to the South Asian section -- however, it has nothing to do with genetics.

I suppose the article does have value from an anthropological vantage, though I think it is lost on most people. Ascribing a moral, ethical, or intelligence judgement on the individual killed is a moot point because no one is applying any of those judgments to the killers. Objectively, a person showed themselves to another group of people and was immediately killed -- his intentions, motivations, and microbial status completely unknown to the other party. We don't ascribe a moral judgement on them because of the extent of their primitiveness; but that is subjective. I'd argue viewing the incident under any moral lens is of no value on this forum -- as we are not in the business of classifying the motivations and reasons of population movement, interaction, increase or decline, in those terms. What played out here is what has played out through all of history -- one group of people met another group -- and either: one dies, the other dies, neither, or both.

It is myopic to give so much weight to the fact the individual was a missionary. In an alternate scenario this person could have been a doctor trying to provide them with a vaccination that would prevent their extinction, and the event would have played out exactly the same; the Sentinelese did not consider his intentions, nor should we. Whether a ship wrecked, someone is trying to spread the word of God, or starvation forced a movement of people... what is relevant is that a catalyst -- good or bad, logical or illogical -- motivated people to move and forced interaction with other people. These events occur in microcosms that coalesce to form the macrocosm that is the modern human population.

What is a more interesting point of discussion for myself -- considering the forum we are on -- is at what point in human history or development did a group of people meet another group of people and not immediately kill them? Exactly how old are the ways of Sentinelese?

rothaer
11-24-2018, 10:46 AM
What is more interesting point of discussion for myself -- considering the forum we are on -- is at what point in human history or development did a group of people meet another group of people and not immediately kill them? Exactly, how old are the ways of Sentinelese?

A good question.

As far as we know they kill each foreigner and they do still exist. And we know - to be honest - this is the cause they still do exist. Otherwise their "existence" would be like that of the other Andanamese.

They maybe kind of "smell" the threat by and superiority of the surrounding world. They are for sure aware of the others do have boats and they do not. This might be a condition for their behaviour. Also, this consequence in behaviour suggests to me they do not decide from time to time what to do. Likely they do have a clear internal regelement for this, maybe even supported by "moral-religious" imaginations about what is right to do.

khanabadoshi
11-24-2018, 11:07 AM
A good question.


As far as we know they kill each foreigner and they do still exist. And we know - to be honest - this is the cause they still do exist. Otherwise their "existence" would be like that of the other Andanamese.

They maybe kind of "smell" the threat by and superiority of the surrounding world. They are for sure aware of the others do have boats and they do not. This might be a condition for their behaviour.

So your viewpoint is that this behavior was developed over time as they equated superior technology with a threat so vast that is must be nipped in the bud immediately. Or perhaps, they have made a connection between boats and illness/disease?

However, I'm thinking what if this is how humans were -- that all HG groups at certain point in time used to immediately kill all "foreign" groups without interaction. I'm suggesting that maybe the Sentinelese are so old that they do not even express a pivotal rudimentary trait in human development -- curiosity. Absent a visible immediate threat, most humans favor acting on curiosity over acting on fear. [Though, to be fair, I suppose a boat is an immediate visible threat...] I'm thinking a people who do not yet have fire may also not yet have developed beyond fight or flight, or achieved a minimum level of curiosity that we take for granted humans have.

Censored
11-24-2018, 11:21 AM
So your viewpoint is that this behavior was developed over time as they equated superior technology with a threat so vast that is must be nipped in the bud immediately. Or perhaps, they have made a connection between boats and illness/disease?

However, I'm thinking what if this is how humans were -- that all HG groups at certain point in time used to immediately kill all "foreign" groups without interaction. I'm suggesting that maybe the Sentinelese are so old that they do not even express a pivotal rudimentary trait in human development -- curiosity. Absent a visible immediate threat, most humans favor acting on curiosity over acting on fear. I'm thinking a people who do not yet have fire may also not yet have developed beyond fight or flight, or achieved a minimum level of curiosity that we take for granted humans have.

You know, I think this is the foundation of racism. Back in ancient times there were likely good reasons to kill or shun foreigners just because the threats were very real I.e. they could be invaders who plan to kill you or perhaps carrying exotic diseases. That ancient instinct to fear the unknown has probably carried over into today which explains why racism is so prevalent.
I don’t know if these sentinelese just lack curiosity but they are in such a primitive state as a whole that aggression is their safest card-and I hate to admit it but they’re 100% right. Look what happened to the American natives, or even the other Andaman tribes. The sentinelese’ hostility served them well.

rothaer
11-24-2018, 11:43 AM
"I'm suggesting that maybe the Sentinelese are so old that they do not even express a pivotal rudimentary trait in human development -- curiosity.":

This seems unlikely though also chimps have that. Also, there is a film from a contact, where coconuts were given and taken by couriosity by them.

Censored is right with his above comment all this actually served the North Sentinelese well.

Maybe there already is one old wise man from outside hiding among them and giving advice how to act to survive under today conditions! :-)

khanabadoshi
11-24-2018, 11:51 AM
You know, I think this is the foundation of racism. Back in ancient times there were likely good reasons to kill or shun foreigners just because the threats were very real I.e. they could be invaders who plan to kill you or perhaps carrying exotic diseases. I don’t know if these sentinelese just lack curiosity but they are in such a primitive state as a whole that aggression is their safest card-and I hate to admit it but they’re 100% right. Look what happened to the American natives, or even the other Andaman tribes. The sentinelese’ hostility served them well.

Except, the way I see it, is that they have never actually faced a substantial threat (or at least threats much of the rest of the ancient world faced) and that their hostility isn't serving them as much as the coincidence of their circumstances are. Comparing them to Native Americans doesn't hold water, because the Native Americans were not anywhere close to being as primitive, they faced organized standing armies, resided on valued territory, and people actually settled on their land.

I'm suggesting that the Sentinelese are able to maintain their ancient way of life because since that time, they haven't faced a serious threat in however many thousands of years. They have never needed to adapt, because they are surrounded by water on non-strategic unvalued land, maintain their population low enough to subsist on gathering, and have never faced another group of people seriously attempting to populate the island. It's amazing that they have never even reached a population threshold that might require them to start investigating farming.

Basically, what I am saying, is that a lot of factors contribute to the survival of their way of life -- and by factors, I mean the absence of factors that forced much of the rest of humanity to abandon the HG lifestyle. Their hostility is only serving them, because most everyone they have faced is non-hostile; but what is really serving them is where they live.

khanabadoshi
11-24-2018, 11:53 AM
"I'm suggesting that maybe the Sentinelese are so old that they do not even express a pivotal rudimentary trait in human development -- curiosity.":

This is not just unlikely though also chimps have that, but there are films from a contact, where coconuts were given and taken by couriosity by them.

Censored is right with his above comment all this actually served the North Sentinelese well.

Maybe there already is one old wise man from outside hiding among them and giving advice how to act to survive under today conditions! :-)

I was actually thinking about the Coconut incident when writing this. Didn't they just leave the coconuts on the beach and not care about them after a few minutes?

rothaer
11-24-2018, 12:06 PM
Basically, what I am saying, is that a lot of factors contribute to the survival of their way of life -- and by factors, I mean the absence of factors that forced much of the rest of humanity to abandon the HG lifestyle. Their hostility is only serving them, because most everyone they have faced is non-hostile.

I admit, the existence on an island is often not an example for any progressive development. Mostly isolation is characterized by a lack of selective pressure.

However, their ancestors ought to have had boats to get there. Acutally we donīt know if they really were isolated from the other Andanamese in the past centuries. Maybe not.

khanabadoshi
11-24-2018, 12:13 PM
I admit, the existence on an island is often not an example for any progressive development. Mostly isolation is characterized by a lack of selective pressure.

However, their ancestors ought to have had boats to get there. Acutally we donīt know if they really were isolated from the other Andanamese in the past centuries. Maybe not.

That's a good point. Maybe internal strife between the islands is a cause of their extreme isolationism. ie. perhaps their way of life was in response to some internal pressures in the last centuries, not a unbroken continuation from thousands years ago. It does beg the question of how people who had to have traveled by boat at some point lost all knowledge of how to build a boat. Do they have canoes?

Nive1526
11-24-2018, 01:46 PM
According to google earth, the sea between North Sentinel Island and the main islands is just 70 meters deep so could have come by foot up until 8-10.000 years ago.

poi
11-24-2018, 02:44 PM
Basically, what I am saying, is that a lot of factors contribute to the survival of their way of life -- and by factors, I mean the absence of factors that forced much of the rest of humanity to abandon the HG lifestyle. Their hostility is only serving them, because most everyone they have faced is non-hostile; but what is really serving them is where they live.
I agree if you define "hostility" a certain way, but modern people/countries are capable of killing just like these HGs and I'd argue at a massive scale. And, if Andaman Islands had rare natural resources, the "civilized world" would have cut right through their primitive arrows. Overall, I agree that they are held to a different standard and treated as such. If modern justice is really applied, they would be prosecuted for the killing.

poi
11-24-2018, 03:00 PM
According to google earth, the sea between North Sentinel Island and the main islands is just 70 meters deep so could have come by foot up until 8-10.000 years ago.

Looking at G25, Onges and Jarawas are VERY close. I am assuming that Sentinelese tribals wouldn't be any different. If true, they have not drifted too far in 8-10 thousand years. I am curious about the isolation/drift.

DMXX
11-24-2018, 03:15 PM
Thank you for guiding the thread towards a more productive and reasoned set of discussions, khana.

I find it extremely unlikely that the Sentinelese lost their biological capacity for curiosity. Curiosity is observed in all sorts of mammalian species (and potentially even certain reptiles (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5845565/)) and it's considered by evolutionary biologists to be a neuro-environmental "vector" for adaptation. Curiosity, very broadly, also correlates with general intelligence. Given how highly-conserved the trait for curiosity is among multiple species, and is one of the hallmarks of our species (we're obviously more curious and exhibit more complex social structures than the others), the proposition that the Sentinelese simply "lost" it is slim to none in my view.

A related statement, which I think is both more likely and the most plausible explanation, is that the Sentinelese people have become hostile towards the outside world following their very violent formative interaction with foreigners (in this case, the company led by an administrator of the British Empire by the name of Maurice Portman). The Sentinelese initially retreated to the island's interior upon Portman's arrival - His company then captured half a dozen of them! The Sentinelese clearly identified them as a potential threat, which was clearly validated.
Given this formative event happened only ~120 years ago (4 generations), it is parsimonious for the Sentinelese to have had that deleterious event imprinted in their collective conscience, and the living memory of that experience has continued on to this very day.
The above is exacerbated if one considers their very low population count (the highest estimate today is 200, so assuming n=100 in the 19th century, meaning around 6% of their entire population was captured by outsiders).

Per the above, one could infer that the Sentinelese have assumed a permanent defensiveness and hostility towards everyone outside of their island and community.

poi
11-24-2018, 04:11 PM
Thank you for guiding the thread towards a more productive and reasoned set of discussions, khana.

I find it extremely unlikely that the Sentinelese lost their biological capacity for curiosity. Curiosity is observed in all sorts of mammalian species (and potentially even certain reptiles (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5845565/)) and it's considered by evolutionary biologists to be a neuro-environmental "vector" for adaptation. Curiosity, very broadly, also correlates with general intelligence. Given how highly-conserved the trait for curiosity is among multiple species, and is one of the hallmarks of our species (we're obviously more curious and exhibit more complex social structures than the others), the proposition that the Sentinelese simply "lost" it is slim to none in my view.

A related statement, which I think is both more likely and the most plausible explanation, is that the Sentinelese people have become hostile towards the outside world following their very violent formative interaction with foreigners (in this case, the company led by an administrator of the British empire by the name of Maurice Portman). The Sentinelese initially retreated to the island's interior upon Portman's arrival - His company then captured half a dozen of them! The Sentinelese clearly identified them as a potential threat, which was clearly validated.
Given this formative event happened only ~120 years ago (4 generations), it is parsimonious to assume that the Sentinelese have had that deleterious event imprinted in their collective conscience and the living memory of that experience has continued on to this very day.
The above is exacerbated if one considers their very low population count (the highest estimate today is 200, so assuming n=100 in the 19th century, meaning around 6% of their entire population was captured by outsiders).

Per the above, one could infer that the Sentinelese have assumed permanent stance of defensiveness and hostility towards everyone outside of their island and community.

Those genetically identical Jarawa tribals (through contact with the mainland tourists) have started taking tobacco(per the news article). The Jarawas seem to have opened up for sure and are curious about all sorts of things. Furthermore, it feels wrong to just make a blanket statement on Sentinelese's "violent" tendencies. The killing of outsiders is probably part of the "law" enforcement within their tribal community. The elders learned from their own elders and the young HGs are programmed to resist outsiders.

Censored
11-24-2018, 07:19 PM
That's a good point. Maybe internal strife between the islands is a cause of their extreme isolationism. ie. perhaps their way of life was in response to some internal pressures in the last centuries, not a unbroken continuation from thousands years ago. It does beg the question of how people who had to have traveled by boat at some point lost all knowledge of how to build a boat. Do they have canoes?

Actually from what I know there was a land bridge connecting the islands to Burma during the ice age. Along the coast of the island right up to the Burmese coast sea levels are shallow, and during the ice age it’s likely that they were low enough to completely expose the land underneath. So it was probably just some really long peninsula rather than the island chain we know now. These Onge/Jarawa/Sentinelese were likely one population of hunter gatherers who ended up trapped after getting cut off from the mainland, and then further diversifying as they became divided as more islands formed within their territory as sea levels progressively rose.

David Mc
11-24-2018, 08:49 PM
I'm considering closing the thread for very different reasons. It's a current event article discussing a topic, the nature of which, comes packaged with inherent religious/colonial subtexts. The article involves a group of people whose genetics are of interest to the South Asian section -- however, it has nothing to do with genetics.

I suppose the article does have value from an anthropological vantage, though I think it is lost on most people. Ascribing a moral, ethical, or intelligence judgement on the individual killed is a moot point because no one is applying any of those judgments to the killers. Objectively, a person showed themselves to another group of people and was immediately killed -- his intentions, motivations, and microbial status completely unknown to the other party. We don't ascribe a moral judgement on them because of the extent of their primitiveness; but that is subjective. I'd argue viewing the incident under any moral lens is of no value on this forum -- as we are not in the business of classifying the motivations and reasons of population movement, interaction, increase or decline, in those terms. What played out here is what has played out through all of history -- one group of people met another group -- and either: one dies, the other dies, neither, or both.

It is myopic to give so much weight to the fact the individual was a missionary. In an alternate scenario this person could have been a doctor trying to provide them with a vaccination that would prevent their extinction, and the event would have played out exactly the same; the Sentinelese did not consider his intentions, nor should we. Whether a ship wrecked, someone is trying to spread the word of God, or starvation forced a movement of people... what is relevant is that a catalyst -- good or bad, logical or illogical -- motivated people to move and forced interaction with other people. These events occur in microcosms that coalesce to form the macrocosm that is the modern human population.

What is a more interesting point of discussion for myself -- considering the forum we are on -- is at what point in human history or development did a group of people meet another group of people and not immediately kill them? Exactly how old are the ways of Sentinelese?

Thanks, khanabadoshi. This is the level of discussion that I and others, I think, have come to expect from Anthrogenica over the years, and it's one of the reasons I love this community.

parasar
11-26-2018, 06:10 PM
Or a recent, elite dominated language shift.

Hindi or Oriya maybe, but in Bihar and Orissa there is hardly any elite pressure on Khonds to speak Gond, Khond, Kuwi or Kui. Their neighboring Oraon speak Kurukh/Malto which is a different Dravidian line more akin to geographically distant Brahui and to Koragu, Irula.

https://cdn.britannica.com/00/2000-050-BE167405.jpg
https://cdn.britannica.com/64/67964-050-A70268B3.jpg

parasar
11-26-2018, 07:57 PM
I'm considering closing the thread for very different reasons. It's a current event article discussing a topic, the nature of which, comes packaged with inherent religious/colonial subtexts. The article involves a group of people whose genetics are of interest to the South Asian section -- however, it has nothing to do with genetics.

I suppose the article does have value from an anthropological vantage, though I think it is lost on most people. Ascribing a moral, ethical, or intelligence judgement on the individual killed is a moot point because no one is applying any of those judgments to the killers. Objectively, a person showed themselves to another group of people and was immediately killed -- his intentions, motivations, and microbial status completely unknown to the other party. We don't ascribe a moral judgement on them because of the extent of their primitiveness; but that is subjective. I'd argue viewing the incident under any moral lens is of no value on this forum -- as we are not in the business of classifying the motivations and reasons of population movement, interaction, increase or decline, in those terms. What played out here is what has played out through all of history -- one group of people met another group -- and either: one dies, the other dies, neither, or both.

It is myopic to give so much weight to the fact the individual was a missionary. In an alternate scenario this person could have been a doctor trying to provide them with a vaccination that would prevent their extinction, and the event would have played out exactly the same; the Sentinelese did not consider his intentions, nor should we. Whether a ship wrecked, someone is trying to spread the word of God, or starvation forced a movement of people... what is relevant is that a catalyst -- good or bad, logical or illogical -- motivated people to move and forced interaction with other people. These events occur in microcosms that coalesce to form the macrocosm that is the modern human population.

What is a more interesting point of discussion for myself -- considering the forum we are on -- is at what point in human history or development did a group of people meet another group of people and not immediately kill them? Exactly how old are the ways of Sentinelese?

Who knows! Not necessarily specific to the Sentinelese, but:
"In ~1296, Marco Polo described them (second hand–he never saw them) as “a most brutish and savage race, having heads, eyes, and teeth like those of dogs. They are very cruel, and kill and eat every foreigner whom they can lay their hands upon.” In 1771, an East India vessel passed by their island and sighted “a multitude of lights … upon the shore” – the first recorded mention of their island. In 1867, an Indian merchantman was wrecked on the reef of the island, and the 86 passengers and 20 crewmen made it safely to shore, whereupon the islanders attacked them with bows and arrows (the Royal British Navy rescued the ship’s company several days later but could find no sign of the attackers). In 1896, an escaped Hindu convict landed on the beach of the island; a search party later found his body, pierced by several arrows and with its throat cut.

There were no further recorded encounters with them until, in 1974, the island was visited by a film crew that was shooting a documentary titled Man in Search of Man; the natives fired arrows at them, one of which hit the film director in the thigh. In 1981, a Panamanian-registered freighter ran aground on their island, and the crew was attacked by the islanders; the Indian Navy had to send a tugboat and a helicopter to rescue the besieged sailors. In 1991, an Indian government anthropologist made the “first friendly encounter” with them, but only after 20 years of unsuccessful attempts. Jacques Cousteau once tried to shoot a documentary on the islands but was chased away. Shortly after the disastrous 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami, the Indian government sent a helicopter to ascertain the survival of the islanders who proceeded to shoot arrows at the hovering aircraft to repel it. In 2006, they killed two fishermen who were fishing illegally within range of the island and drove off the helicopter that was sent to retrieve their bodies with a hail of arrows; the bodies were never recovered ...

From 1967 on, the Indian authorities in Port Blair embarked on a limited program of attempts at contacting the Sentinelese, under the auspices of the Director of Tribal Welfare and anthropologist T. N. Pandit. These “Contact Expeditions” consisted of a series of planned visits which would progressively leave “gifts”, such as coconuts, on the shores, in an attempt to coax the Sentinelese from their hostile reception of outsiders. For a while these seemed to have some limited success; however the program was discontinued in the late 1990s following a series of hostile encounters resulting in several deaths in a similar program practiced with the Jarawa people of South and Middle Andaman Islands and because of the danger of introducing diseases ...

T. N. Pandit, the anthropologist credited with the “first friendly encounter” with the Sentinelese in 1991 (after 20 years of unsuccessful attempts) is quoted as stating, “That they voluntarily came forward to meet us – it was unbelievable. They must have come to a decision that the time had come. It could not have happened on the spur of the moment. But there was this feeling of sadness also – I did feel it. And there was the feeling that at a larger scale of human history, these people who were holding back, holding on, ultimately had to yield.

It’s like an era in history gone. The islands have gone. Until the other day, the Sentinelese were holding the flag, unknown to themselves. They were being heroes. But they have also given up. They would not have survived forever – that, I can reason out. On a scientific basis, we can say that this population might have lived for another hundred years, but eventually. . . Even destruction takes place in the natural course of things; no one can help it, it happens. But here we have been doing it in a very conscious way, knowing full well what the consequences could be. What would be and what could be are the same”"
The Most Socially Isolated People on Earth
https://geog.ucsb.edu/the-most-socially-isolated-people-on-earth/

rothaer
11-26-2018, 08:48 PM
That's a good point. Maybe internal strife between the islands is a cause of their extreme isolationism. ie. perhaps their way of life was in response to some internal pressures in the last centuries, not a unbroken continuation from thousands years ago. It does beg the question of how people who had to have traveled by boat at some point lost all knowledge of how to build a boat. Do they have canoes?

They donīt have canoes. (Actually incredible...)

Hereīs an impressing short film about meeting the Jarawa, a neighboring tribe which now is in contact with civilisation (or "civilisation"). They make to me the impression to have a pronounced curiosity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5TfYfjvTx4

Rahuls77
11-26-2018, 10:24 PM
Just had a glance at a few videos on youtube, and I guess Indians, since their very first contacts with the A&N Islanders, specifically the Jarawas, have been especially despicable, including the officialdom, the tourists as well as the coloniser populations.

agent_lime
11-27-2018, 09:17 AM
Just had a glance at a few videos on youtube, and I guess Indians, since their very first contacts with the A&N Islanders, specifically the Jarawas, have been especially despicable, including the officialdom, the tourists as well as the coloniser populations.

India is a poor country. Anything that will bring in Dollars gets exploited. The British kidnapped and killed a few Onge. The Indian government hasn't acted in bad faith for the most part. People however continue to take advantage of trying to exploit Neolithic like tribes. It's the same in the heavy tribal areas in Chhattisgarh, Bihar, MP, NE States. All for different reasons.

lukaszM
11-27-2018, 02:04 PM
I converted using BAM Analysis Kit 2.0 Andaman genome taken from https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB29074

It's on Gedmatch Geneis now KZ2535272

MDLP K16

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Indian 34.19
2 SouthEastAsian 29.56
3 Australian 10.02
4 Oceanic 8.57
5 Siberian 7.3
6 Amerindian 3.77
7 EastAfrican 3.62
8 Subsaharian 2.73
9 Neolithic 0.23

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Onge (Andaman_Islands) 5.57
2 Great_Andamanese (Andaman_Islands) 8.75
3 Bonda (Malkangiri ) 15.72
4 Gadaba (Odisha) 16.05
5 Juang (Odisha) 16.51
6 Munda (Tripura) 17.16
7 Kharia (Bihar) 17.18
8 Savara (Odisha) 18.23
9 Ho (Jharkhand) 18.47
10 Mawasi (Maharashtra) 19.44
11 Bhunjia (Odisha) 19.64
12 Dhurwa (Orissa) 19.66
13 Brahmin (Uttaranchal) 20.79
14 Sahariya (Madhya_Pradesh) 22.23
15 Khasi (Meghalaya) 23.47
16 Santhal (Jharkhand) 23.78
17 Kusunda (Nepal) 24.21
18 Asur (Jharkhand) 24.71
19 Gond (Maharashtra) 25.13
20 Dhaka (Malay_Archipelago) 25.37

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.1% Onge (Andaman_Islands) + 2.9% Melanesian (Bougainville) @ 4.97
2 98.1% Onge (Andaman_Islands) + 1.9% Karitiana (NA) @ 5.16
3 98.1% Onge (Andaman_Islands) + 1.9% Mixe (NA) @ 5.16



MDLP K23b

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Indian 48.55
2 South_East_Asian 13.95
3 Australoid 10.8
4 Austronesian 9.74
5 Melano_Polynesian 5.44
6 Tungus-Altaic 2.46
7 Amerindian 2.36
8 Subsaharian 1.65
9 East_African 1.63
10 Archaic_African 1.46
11 East_Siberian 1.3
12 European_Hunters_Gatherers 0.38
13 Arctic 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Onge ( ) 9.96
2 Tamil_Singapore ( ) 25.87
3 Kharia ( ) 25.91
4 Dhaka_mixed_popul ( ) 26.12
5 Ho ( ) 26.68
6 Satnami ( ) 27.63
7 Bengali_Bangladesh_BEB ( ) 28.35
8 Kensiu ( ) 28.48
9 Gond ( ) 29.04
10 Dhurwa ( ) 29.74
11 Tharu ( ) 29.83
12 Bhunjia ( ) 29.88
13 Pahari ( ) 31.59
14 Bhili ( ) 32.24
15 Nepalese ( ) 32.35
16 Bengali ( ) 32.62
17 Ayta_AE ( ) 32.86
18 Telugu_Kannada ( ) 33.53
19 Santhal ( ) 33.64
20 Srivastava ( ) 33.67

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.9% Onge ( ) + 7.1% Naasioi ( ) @ 5.71
2 94.1% Onge ( ) + 5.9% Bougainville ( ) @ 5.8
3 81.3% Onge ( ) + 18.7% Ayta_AE ( ) @ 6.67
4 89.6% Onge ( ) + 10.4% Australian_ECCAC ( ) @ 6.77
5 57.2% Ayta_AE ( ) + 42.8% Paniya ( ) @ 6.82
6 91.7% Onge ( ) + 8.3% Australian ( ) @ 7.05




K36

Amerindian 2.57 Pct
Central_African 1.67 Pct
East_African 0.60 Pct
East_Asian 3.92 Pct
Malayan 29.16 Pct
Oceanian 12.52 Pct
Omotic 3.12 Pct
Siberian 2.59 Pct
South_Asian 42.37 Pct
West_African 1.48 Pct

rothaer
11-27-2018, 02:20 PM
Thanks Lukasz. Hmm, what exactly is that Andamanese individual if not Onge (and even less Great Andamanese)?

However itīs interesting to see this has seemingly a Melanesian/Oceanian-like contribution.

It is said such as the Onge (I expect the same for the neighboring Jarawa and Sentinelese) does NOT have a Denisovan contribution, while other Southeast Asian Negritos do have. I interpret the above Melanesian/Oceanian-score to be in connection with such elevated Denisovan archaic forms.

Does anyone know if the Onge do have any Neanderthal contribution or did they maybe "work-around" that too when they left Africa on the coastal path?

parasar
11-27-2018, 04:21 PM
Thanks Lukasz. Hmm, what exactly is that Andamanese individual if not Onge (and even less Great Andamanese)?

However itīs interesting to see this has seemingly a Melanesian/Oceanian-like contribution.

It is said such as the Onge (I expect the same for the neighboring Jarawa and Sentinelese) does NOT have a Denisovan contribution, while other Southeast Asian Negritos do have. I interpret the above Melanesian/Oceanian-score to be in connection with such elevated Denisovan archaic forms.

Does anyone know if the Onge do have any Neanderthal contribution or did they maybe "work-around" that too when they left Africa on the coastal path?

That interpretation has changed.
Please see:

Reich group in 2011 - "These results indicate that Denisova gene flow occurred into the common ancestors of New Guineans, Australians, and Mamanwa but not into the ancestors of the Jehai and Onge and suggest that relatives of present-day East Asians were not in Southeast Asia when the Denisova gene flow occurred." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929711003958

More recently Reich group - However, we were surprised to detect a peak of Denisovan ancestry estimates in South Asians, both in the Himalayan region and in South and Central India (Figure 2A). The highest estimate is in Sherpas (0.10%), who have a Denisovan point estimate about one-tenth of that seen in Papuans (1.12%)... “Modeling the variation in Denisovan ancestry across populations”). The signal remains significant (Z = 3.1) when we remove from the analysis five populations that have ancestry very different from the majority of South Asians (Tibetan, Sherpa, Hazara, Kusunda, and Onge); however, the signals are non-significant for Central Asians (Z = 1.2) and Native Americans (Z = 0.1). Taken together, the evidence of Denisovan admixture in modern humans could in theory be explained by a single Denisovan introgression into modern humans, followed by dilution to different extents in Oceanians, South Asians, and East Asians by people with less Denisovan ancestry. If dilution does not explain these patterns, however, a minimum of three distinct Denisovan introgressions into the ancestors of modern humans must have occurred.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982216302470

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0960982216302470-gr2.jpg

Megalophias
11-27-2018, 04:32 PM
Does anyone know if the Onge do have any Neanderthal contribution or did they maybe "work-around" that too when they left Africa on the coastal path?
Yes, they have the normal Eurasian level of Neanderthal.

agent_lime
11-27-2018, 04:34 PM
Yes, they have the normal Eurasian level of Neanderthal.

Did any group make it out of Africa without Neanderthal?

Megalophias
11-27-2018, 04:47 PM
Did any group make it out of Africa without Neanderthal?
Yes, black people. ;)

Maybe Basal Eurasians, we don't know for sure about them.

DMXX
11-27-2018, 04:54 PM
Did any group make it out of Africa without Neanderthal?

The current thinking is that the first HSS encountered their Neanderthal cousins in the Near-East (approx. 50kya from memory? Please correct) with the initial admixture event taking place then.

East Eurasians appear to have up to 20% more Neanderthal admixture than West Eurasians do, and a "two pulse" model (i.e. a second stream of Neanderthal admixture after the postulated Near-Eastern one) is suspected to have been responsible for this.

According to this study (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007349), all non-African human populations today have some Neanderthal heritage.

Worth mentioning that several African groups today also possess Neanderthal heritage (albeit at lesser frequencies when compared to Eurasians). This is thought to be due to a back-migration from Eurasia.

rothaer
11-27-2018, 05:19 PM
"The [Denisovan] signal remains significant (Z = 3.1) when we remove from the analysis five populations that have ancestry very different from the majority of South Asians (Tibetan, Sherpa, Hazara, Kusunda, and Onge)":

Parasar, out of what do you conclude Onge is now regarded to have Denisovan? The aforementioned sentence does not state that.

parasar
11-27-2018, 05:28 PM
The current thinking is that the first HSS encountered their Neanderthal cousins in the Near-East (approx. 50kya from memory? Please correct) with the initial admixture event taking place then.

East Eurasians appear to have up to 20% more Neanderthal admixture than West Eurasians do, and a "two pulse" model (i.e. a second stream of Neanderthal admixture after the postulated Near-Eastern one) is suspected to have been responsible for this.

According to this study (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007349), all non-African human populations today have some Neanderthal heritage.

Worth mentioning that several African groups today also possess Neanderthal heritage (albeit at lesser frequencies when compared to Eurasians). This is thought to be due to a back-migration from Eurasia.

One the key points in that paper was the evidence from the reverse flow:
"More complete data from these archaic DNA samples [75] improved these estimates, demonstrating the gene flow event occurred at least 130–145 kya into a lineage ancestral to both Vindija and Altai Neanderthal populations[since "The split time between the Vindija and the Altai Neandertals is estimated to be 130 to 145 ka."]. Analyses of mitochondrial DNA from multiple Neanderthal and human samples suggest that an even earlier gene flow occurred from humans into Neanderthals, potentially as early as ~300 kya [76]."

Censored
11-27-2018, 05:35 PM
Thanks Lukasz. Hmm, what exactly is that Andamanese individual if not Onge (and even less Great Andamanese)?

However itīs interesting to see this has seemingly a Melanesian/Oceanian-like contribution.

It is said such as the Onge (I expect the same for the neighboring Jarawa and Sentinelese) does NOT have a Denisovan contribution, while other Southeast Asian Negritos do have. I interpret the above Melanesian/Oceanian-score to be in connection with such elevated Denisovan archaic forms.

Does anyone know if the Onge do have any Neanderthal contribution or did they maybe "work-around" that too when they left Africa on the coastal path?

I read somewhere that they lack Denisovsn ancestry completely which makes sense given their gracile features relative to Papuans and Aborigines. I think they are getting high Oceanian because they match on the non-Denisovan derived segments with Australoids. The same way they get about 50% South Indian(like I do) on Harappa, but they’re matching with the purely AASI component within that category, whereas with me some Iran Neolithic is also likely being captured by it.

DMXX
11-27-2018, 05:42 PM
I read somewhere that they lack Denisovsn ancestry completely which makes sense given their gracile features relative to Papuans and Aborigines.

Whoever's made that connection is presenting a false narrative, as there's no evidence whatsoever that physical "gracility" correlates negatively with Denisovan ancestry.

Given we don't even have a single Denisovan skull yet, that proposed correlation is particularly funny (it's kind of like inferring any bushy-eyebrowed Uyghurs acquired their trait from Sintashta, on the basis that Georgians and Chechens are overall closer to Sintashta than other modern East-Central Asians are... Despite not having any Sintashta 'brows to compare with).

Besides, non-HSS admixture probably doesn't correlate with "robust" physical features in modern populations, given the obvious selective pressures that've taken place over time (East Eurasians are arguably more "gracile" than West Eurasians despite having more Neanderthal admixture on average).

parasar
11-27-2018, 05:47 PM
"The [Denisovan] signal remains significant (Z = 3.1) when we remove from the analysis five populations that have ancestry very different from the majority of South Asians (Tibetan, Sherpa, Hazara, Kusunda, and Onge)":

Parasar, out of what do you conclude Onge is now regarded to have Denisovan? The aforementioned sentence does not state that.

Please see the figure posted.
What they are saying [not clearly I agree] is they even if we remove Tibetan, Sherpa, Hazara, Kusunda, and Onge from the analysis South Asians still show some Denisovan.

Autosomal cline from Papuan:
Papuan 1.596 (Neanderthal) 1.123 (Denisovan)
Onge 1.325 (Neanderthal) 0.057 (Denisovan)
Samaritan 0.888 (Neanderthal) 0.002 (Denisovan)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4864120/bin/NIHMS773457-supplement-2.pdf