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misanthropy
11-23-2018, 10:39 AM
This study of history is an interesting read. Persians (and their mixed descendants) made up 20-30% of the nobility of the Mughal empire.

https://journals.openedition.org/asiecentrale/480

agent_lime
11-23-2018, 11:14 AM
This study of history is an interesting read. Persians (and their mixed descendants) made up 20-30% of the nobility of the Mughal empire.

https://journals.openedition.org/asiecentrale/480

I read through a some of it. Most of Mughal are now gone, Anthropologically most Indians do not have any modern Iranian ancestry. Some Muslims in Delhi/ Agra/ Hyderabad do have some but I would bet it's at most a few thousand people.

Piquerobi
11-23-2018, 11:27 AM
Anthropologically most Indians do not have any modern Iranian ancestry.

What about Parsis like Freddie Mercury?

agent_lime
11-23-2018, 11:44 AM
What about Parsis like Freddie Mercury?

They would be an exception and still not in the modern era (Last few hundred years). They genetically only partially resemble Iranians because Iranian demographics changed.

DMXX
11-23-2018, 11:49 AM
There's a thread going into detail about this, but Iranians and Kurds have remained pretty much the same since the Iron Age (going by Hasanlu_IA), barring additional steppe or non-West Eurasian admixture. The main type of non-West Eurasian ancestry in Iran looks to be East Eurasian, which is about 1-3% in Persian speakers.

Parsis look like a fairly stable mixture of Iranian and Gujarati, going by previous ADMIXTURE calculator Oracles and the uniparentals (more Iranian-leaning paternally). Unfortunately, poi's G25 tool doesn't feature any Parsi groups, so determining the precise donor population isn't possible right now.

Rahuls77
11-23-2018, 11:58 AM
Mughal paternal line was most probably C, if the claim of descent from Chagatay is true.
Talking about the Mongols, some speculate that even Jochi, Changez Khan's eldest son, most probably NOT a biological one, was probably J, his descendants went on to form the Golden Horde, led by Batu Khan.
And most of the nobility of the Persian stock, which migrated to South Asia, under the Mughals, to escape Safawid persecution would have been quite diverse as well. Some even claimed Arab ancestry and were for centuries, following their settling in Persia, Persiansed Arabs.
You can find a lot of Mughals in modern Pakistan,who happen to have R1a and even H lineages, with R1a still allowing for a legitimacy to their claims, maybe even H had migrated to Central Asia and mingled with the Turks and the Mongols, the Romanis definitely were one such instance. And then among the Persians in India, the most notable was the case of the royal house of Avadh, they were definitely the real migrants, carrying their y lineages indicating their Persian/Levantine/Arab origins. I know of one such character, descendant of Wajid Ali Shah, from his father's side and of the Nawab of Tanda from his mother's, incidentally the same family which the BJP Leader Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi comes.
I am not too sure of the many Sunnis though. Who could have been anything, Persians, Arabs, Turkic or even Persianised Afghans.

passion
11-23-2018, 01:01 PM
Mughal paternal line was most probably C, if the claim of descent from Chagatay is true.
Talking about the Mongols, some speculate that even Jochi, Changez Khan's eldest son, most probably NOT a biological one, was probably J, his descendants went on to form the Golden Horde, led by Batu Khan.
And most of the nobility of the Persian stock, which migrated to South Asia, under the Mughals, to escape Safawid persecution would have been quite diverse as well. Some even claimed Arab ancestry and were for centuries, following their settling in Persia, Persiansed Arabs.
You can find a lot of Mughals in modern Pakistan,who happen to have R1a and even H lineages, with R1a still allowing for a legitimacy to their claims, maybe even H had migrated to Central Asia and mingled with the Turks and the Mongols, the Romanis definitely were one such instance. And then among the Persians in India, the most notable was the case of the royal house of Avadh, they were definitely the real migrants, carrying their y lineages indicating their Persian/Levantine/Arab origins. I know of one such character, descendant of Wajid Ali Shah, from his father's side and of the Nawab of Tanda from his mother's, incidentally the same family which the BJP Leader Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi comes.
I am not too sure of the many Sunnis though. Who could have been anything, Persians, Arabs, Turkic or even Persianised Afghans.

i think majority of Muslim elite migrated to Pakistan on partition , i have seen muhajirs claiming very diverse origins , it would be interesting to see a study on such people to see authenticity of such claims.

Censored
11-23-2018, 06:27 PM
I read through a some of it. Most of Mughal are now gone, Anthropologically most Indians do not have any modern Iranian ancestry. Some Muslims in Delhi/ Agra/ Hyderabad do have some but I would bet it's at most a few thousand people.

I have seen a lot of Indians(including Hindus strangely) claiming Persian ancestry...needless to say it’s mostly false but it’s definitely more than just a few thousand.

Rahuls77
11-23-2018, 06:44 PM
i think majority of Muslim elite migrated to Pakistan on partition , i have seen muhajirs claiming very diverse origins , it would be interesting to see a study on such people to see authenticity of such claims.

The Shia Syed I spoke of, he was a Pakistani.
There are some communities that claim foreign origins, such as the Awans, and the Abbasis, the evidence available so far indicates they were native Indic, paternally, however if any of their lineage is derived from Arab or Persian sources, its difficult to conclude as true or false.
Take for example the case of Mohammed Safdar, Nawaz Sharif's son-in-law. He claims to be an Awan and a direct descendant of Imam Ali, however in truth his family were from the community of the Mirasis, who had adopted this 'respectable' identity a few generations ago.
Then the Abbasis, the clan to which the former PM Shahid Khaqan Abbasi belongs, a few samples of that tribe belong to the Y Haplogroup H, which is mostly Indic and certainly NOT Arab. Most of the Arabs are themselves Arabised Persians.

Rahuls77
11-23-2018, 06:45 PM
I have seen a lot of Indians(including Hindus strangely) claiming Persian ancestry...needless to say it’s mostly false but it’s definitely more than just a few thousand.

Hindus claiming Persian ancestry? That's truly a subcontinental phenomenon.

Rahuls77
11-23-2018, 06:46 PM
There's a thread going into detail about this, but Iranians and Kurds have remained pretty much the same since the Iron Age (going by Hasanlu_IA), barring additional steppe or non-West Eurasian admixture. The main type of non-West Eurasian ancestry in Iran looks to be East Eurasian, which is about 1-3% in Persian speakers.

Parsis look like a fairly stable mixture of Iranian and Gujarati, going by previous ADMIXTURE calculator Oracles and the uniparentals (more Iranian-leaning paternally). Unfortunately, poi's G25 tool doesn't feature any Parsi groups, so determining the precise donor population isn't possible right now.

Let me talk to a few Parsis, in case they are willing to share their raw data to get their G25 coordinates..

parasar
11-23-2018, 07:09 PM
Mughal paternal line was most probably C, if the claim of descent from Chagatay is true.
Talking about the Mongols, some speculate that even Jochi, Changez Khan's eldest son, most probably NOT a biological one, was probably J, his descendants went on to form the Golden Horde, led by Batu Khan.
And most of the nobility of the Persian stock, which migrated to South Asia, under the Mughals, to escape Safawid persecution would have been quite diverse as well. Some even claimed Arab ancestry and were for centuries, following their settling in Persia, Persiansed Arabs.
You can find a lot of Mughals in modern Pakistan,who happen to have R1a and even H lineages, with R1a still allowing for a legitimacy to their claims, maybe even H had migrated to Central Asia and mingled with the Turks and the Mongols, the Romanis definitely were one such instance. And then among the Persians in India, the most notable was the case of the royal house of Avadh, they were definitely the real migrants, carrying their y lineages indicating their Persian/Levantine/Arab origins. I know of one such character, descendant of Wajid Ali Shah, from his father's side and of the Nawab of Tanda from his mother's, incidentally the same family which the BJP Leader Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi comes.
I am not too sure of the many Sunnis though. Who could have been anything, Persians, Arabs, Turkic or even Persianised Afghans.

C-M217, R1a-M417, R1b-M70, Q-M3 all possible.
Eg. Barlas are M70.
A descendant of Jochi Chagan is R1a (W5QKT of Kazakhstan).

Others:
"Y-SNP and Y-STR profiles indicate that the males examined belonged to the R1b-M343 haplogroup ... we propose that Genghis Khan and his family carried Y-haplogroup R1b-M343, which is prevalent in West Eurasia, rather than the Y-haplogroup C3c-M48"
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0161622

Mongol warrior MN0376, likely R1a1a-M17 L657:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?unique&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0161622.s017

parasar
11-23-2018, 07:48 PM
I have seen a lot of Indians(including Hindus strangely) claiming Persian ancestry...needless to say it’s mostly false but it’s definitely more than just a few thousand.

The Mewar line was supposedly Persian (not clear if female Maha Banu or male Naushirwan).
"Abul Fazal mentioned in his Ain-i-Akbari that the chief of Mewar formerly called Rawal, but for a long time past, had been known as Rana. He also argued that Guhilot clan descended from Noshirwan of Berar."
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/195478/7/chap_1.pdf

The word Vasudev Vahman supposedly became Vasudev Chahman-Chauhan.

Even the earliest historical mention of my line has a Persian type name.
ParaashariputreN Sarvataaten (Hourvatat) पाराशरीपुत्रेण ... सर्वतातेन अश्वमेघ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathibada_Ghosundi_Inscriptions

The Parsus were after all were Rg Vedic tribe so closely associated from remote times to recent.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv08006.htm
"A hundred thousand have I gained from Parsu, from Tirindira,
And presents of the Yadavas"

Censored
11-23-2018, 08:15 PM
Hindus claiming Persian ancestry? That's truly a subcontinental phenomenon.

Yup, I think it happens due to a misunderstanding of history. People have this idea that because the Mughal dynasty existed for centuries that somehow everyone across the north has ancestry from them. Or they misunderstand the so called Aryan invasion and conflate Aryan with Persian. I've seen a lot of people claiming that those in the north are "heavily mixed" and not in the way we understand it here but rather having Turkic, Persian, Arab bloodlines.

Edit: btw it tends to be younger folks doing this from what Ive seen

Rahuls77
11-23-2018, 08:29 PM
Yup, I think it happens due to a misunderstanding of history. People have this idea that because the Mughal dynasty existed for centuries that somehow everyone across the north has ancestry from them. Or they misunderstand the so called Aryan invasion and conflate Aryan with Persian. I've seen a lot of people claiming that those in the north are "heavily mixed" and not in the way we understand it here but rather having Turkic, Persian, Arab bloodlines.

Edit: btw it tends to be younger folks doing this from what Ive seen

What Parasar has posted above seems to be closer to the reality. Especially the fact that the North of the North Westerm Subcontinent was home to the Eastern Iranic populations, several of them. And the high caucasian there is a proof of a good flow of Iranic genes into the region. The Pashtuns comprise of certain groups that were Hindu and Zoroastrian before their conversion to Islam about a thousand years ago, by the Samanids, the Ghazanwids, however there were a good many who did NOT convert. The region was part of successive Iranic empires, the Parthians, the Indo-Sassanians etc. And prior to that the Indo-Aryans,of course, who migrated from BMAC, with clean and obvious Bronze Age 'Iranic' admixture. These may not have been totally a Persian people,but they were definitely an Easterly Iranic people.

poi
11-23-2018, 11:41 PM
I have seen a lot of Indians(including Hindus strangely) claiming Persian ancestry...needless to say it’s mostly false but it’s definitely more than just a few thousand.

Could you elaborate on this please? What Hindu groups claim Persian ancestry? Given that Persian ancestry(except for Parsis), in South Asia, was through elite dominance, I would think they would no longer be "Hindus"... I mean, an elite Persian descended group in South Asia would be Muslim (or Buddhist before the advent of Islam). If they claim Persian via Parsis, then that makes sense. The Nehru Gandhi family now is partially Persian (through Feroze Gandhi, a Parsi), so they would be the exception. People like Rahul Gandhi would probably classify themselves as Hindu, but he is paternally Parsi(and maternally Hindu/Kashmiri).

Edit -- not Indian, but there used to be a Hindu(Khas Chettri to be precise) movement in Nepal that claimed Iranic ancestry(via Khas). Most of them did not consider themselves "Hindus", which was equated with the Brahmins(migrants from India). The noted Nepali anthropologist, Dor Bahadur Bista, was at the forefront of this iirc.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dor+bahadur+bista&oq=dor+bahadur+bista

Censored
11-23-2018, 11:47 PM
Could you elaborate on this please? What Hindu groups claim Persian ancestry? Given that Persian ancestry(except for Parsis), in South Asia, was through elite dominance, I would think they would no longer be "Hindus"... I mean, an elite Persian descended group in South Asia would be Muslim (or Buddhist before the advent of Islam). If they claim Persian via Parsis, then that makes sense. The Nehru Gandhi family now is partially Persian (through Feroze Gandhi, a Parsi), so they would be the exception. People like Rahul Gandhi would probably classify themselves as Hindu, but he is paternally Parsi(and maternally Hindu/Kashmiri).

Haha no nothing of that sort. The people I've seen doing this sort of thing aren't really claiming a strong paper trail for their family or their particular community leading to Persian ancestry, they just have this vague idea that "Persians"(could be referring to the Persianized mughal dynasty, or Indo-Aryans) once came to/ruled over India and that there are huge cultural links between India and Iran, and so somewhere down the line people in north India or Pakistan are bound to have some kind of Persian ancestry. They also say this about Greek ancestry, claiming that Greeks once invaded and so there's Greek ancestry found in the area as well.

As I've said, I've mostly seen young people around my age and born in the west making these sorts of claims. They're probably not aware of the extent of endogamy and sectarian division, so it's just naivete on their part.

passion
11-24-2018, 12:34 AM
The Shia Syed I spoke of, he was a Pakistani.
There are some communities that claim foreign origins, such as the Awans, and the Abbasis, the evidence available so far indicates they were native Indic, paternally, however if any of their lineage is derived from Arab or Persian sources, its difficult to conclude as true or false.
Take for example the case of Mohammed Safdar, Nawaz Sharif's son-in-law. He claims to be an Awan and a direct descendant of Imam Ali, however in truth his family were from the community of the Mirasis, who had adopted this 'respectable' identity a few generations ago.
Then the Abbasis, the clan to which the former PM Shahid Khaqan Abbasi belongs, a few samples of that tribe belong to the Y Haplogroup H, which is mostly Indic and certainly NOT Arab. Most of the Arabs are themselves Arabised Persians.

I doubt any community in Pakistan Punjab has foreign origins since most Pakistan Punjab was rural just some decades back. Rural People tend to be very much against assimilation of foreign elements. I was mainly taking about muhajirs who migrated from urban centers of UP/Delhi and were part of urban elite there.

pnb123
11-24-2018, 01:20 AM
Could you elaborate on this please? What Hindu groups claim Persian ancestry? Given that Persian ancestry(except for Parsis), in South Asia, was through elite dominance, I would think they would no longer be "Hindus"... I mean, an elite Persian descended group in South Asia would be Muslim (or Buddhist before the advent of Islam). If they claim Persian via Parsis, then that makes sense. The Nehru Gandhi family now is partially Persian (through Feroze Gandhi, a Parsi), so they would be the exception. People like Rahul Gandhi would probably classify themselves as Hindu, but he is paternally Parsi(and maternally Hindu/Kashmiri).

Edit -- not Indian, but there used to be a Hindu(Khas Chettri to be precise) movement in Nepal that claimed Iranic ancestry(via Khas). Most of them did not consider themselves "Hindus", which was equated with the Brahmins(migrants from India). The noted Nepali anthropologist, Dor Bahadur Bista, was at the forefront of this iirc.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dor+bahadur+bista&oq=dor+bahadur+bista
Lol that guy was delusional (funded by some separatist group). But it looks like the word Khasha is used by several other communities in Himalayas as well. Pretty much every group has some kind of “myths” about their origins & they’re seldom true irl.
As for Brahmin groups, Shakdwipi Brahmins claim Iranic ancestry.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya

DMXX
11-24-2018, 01:36 AM
I have, quite curiously, met around five Indians (all northern, some Muslim, the rest Hindu) in the UK who claimed Persian ancestry. All admitted it was distant (over four generations previously) and none substantiated it with any coherent oral or religious tradition (that'd be especially unusual for the Hindu three).

All five gave a similar answer on deeper questioning - There were mere mentions of a possibility of Persian ancestry, with the strongest evidence of this in all five being either familial involvement in the Mughal court or whispers of recent ancestors being fluent in Persian. Naturally, neither of these substantiate having a significant, actual genetic contribution from any late Medieval/early Modern period Persians from Iran. Their great-grandparents and grand-parents didn't know Persian.

My assessment of the above is that the historical connection between Persian and the Mughal court still carries a fair amount of prestige, resulting in greater enthusiasm to accept fairly flimsy predicators of heritage among some Indians.

Sapporo
11-24-2018, 02:13 AM
Could you elaborate on this please? What Hindu groups claim Persian ancestry? Given that Persian ancestry(except for Parsis), in South Asia, was through elite dominance, I would think they would no longer be "Hindus"... I mean, an elite Persian descended group in South Asia would be Muslim (or Buddhist before the advent of Islam). If they claim Persian via Parsis, then that makes sense. The Nehru Gandhi family now is partially Persian (through Feroze Gandhi, a Parsi), so they would be the exception. People like Rahul Gandhi would probably classify themselves as Hindu, but he is paternally Parsi(and maternally Hindu/Kashmiri).

Edit -- not Indian, but there used to be a Hindu(Khas Chettri to be precise) movement in Nepal that claimed Iranic ancestry(via Khas). Most of them did not consider themselves "Hindus", which was equated with the Brahmins(migrants from India). The noted Nepali anthropologist, Dor Bahadur Bista, was at the forefront of this iirc.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dor+bahadur+bista&oq=dor+bahadur+bista

Isn't Rahul Gandhi half South Italian? I thought he was half Kashmiri Pandit and half South Italian. But he's a mix of Italian, Kashmiri Pandit and Parsi?

Kulin
11-24-2018, 02:41 AM
Isn't Rahul Gandhi half South Italian? I though he was half Kashmiri Pandit and half South Italian. But he's a mix of Italian, Kashmiri Pandit and Parsi?

Rajiv Gandhi, his dad was half Parsi, half Kashmiri.

Sapporo
11-24-2018, 04:18 AM
Rajiv Gandhi, his dad was half Parsi, half Kashmiri.

Ah, okay. I saw poi mentioned Rahul though so got confused.

pegasus
11-24-2018, 05:24 AM
This is a very poorly written article with no genetic basis. Also in that period Persian speaking Turks from Osh would be very genetically different from Persian speaking Kavkaz people from Shirvan.

agent_lime
11-24-2018, 06:41 AM
I have, quite curiously, met around five Indians (all northern, some Muslim, the rest Hindu) in the UK who claimed Persian ancestry. All admitted it was distant (over four generations previously) and none substantiated it with any coherent oral or religious tradition (that'd be especially unusual for the Hindu three).

All five gave a similar answer on deeper questioning - There were mere mentions of a possibility of Persian ancestry, with the strongest evidence of this in all five being either familial involvement in the Mughal court or whispers of recent ancestors being fluent in Persian. Naturally, neither of these substantiate having a significant, actual genetic contribution from any late Medieval/early Modern period Persians from Iran. Their great-grandparents and grand-parents didn't know Persian.

My assessment of the above is that the historical connection between Persian and the Mughal court still carries a fair amount of prestige, resulting in greater enthusiasm to accept fairly flimsy predicators of heritage among some Indians.

My grandparents could speak Persian. It was the language of the educated in India. Khatris and Aroras being urban and educated helped. And there is some shared ancestry between NW South Asians and Iranians but it's not recent. No one ever told me that we came from Persians. The most that ever happened was that Persians themselves would confuse me as one of their own in the states. When that started happening and I knew zero about genetics I started believing that there could be some distant relations with them. Coming to this site cleared that up quickly.

poi
11-24-2018, 06:43 AM
Rajiv Gandhi, his dad was half Parsi, half Kashmiri.


Ah, okay. I saw poi mentioned Rahul though so got confused.


Yup, I meant Rajiv, not Rahul.

Rahuls77
11-24-2018, 07:20 AM
I doubt any community in Pakistan Punjab has foreign origins since most Pakistan Punjab was rural just some decades back. Rural People tend to be very much against assimilation of foreign elements. I was mainly taking about muhajirs who migrated from urban centers of UP/Delhi and were part of urban Let me claelite there.

Let me clarify, the Hallowed Shia Syed is a descendant of Wajid Ali Shah, the last Nawab of Awadh, his grandparents moved to Pakistan in 47.

As far as your point regarding the natives is concerned, my own profile is pretty much an example of that. It is a lot closer to neighbouring groups. In fact, it appears that the Potoharis have not mixed with the outsiders for a very long time. The clan or biradari ties were(and continue to be) very strong.

deuterium_1
11-24-2018, 05:14 PM
What Parasar has posted above seems to be closer to the reality. Especially the fact that the North of the North Westerm Subcontinent was home to the Eastern Iranic populations, several of them. And the high caucasian there is a proof of a good flow of Iranic genes into the region. The Pashtuns comprise of certain groups that were Hindu and Zoroastrian before their conversion to Islam about a thousand years ago, by the Samanids, the Ghazanwids, however there were a good many who did NOT convert. The region was part of successive Iranic empires, the Parthians, the Indo-Sassanians etc. And prior to that the Indo-Aryans,of course, who migrated from BMAC, with clean and obvious Bronze Age 'Iranic' admixture. These may not have been totally a Persian people,but they were definitely an Easterly Iranic people.

What about steppe DNA too? Parthians (they descended from the Parni of the Dahae confederation), Indo-Sassanians (they imitated the Kushans after Ardeshir defeated them) and Samanids (they ruled in Central Asia) would have certainly had some steppe as well.

Rahuls77
11-24-2018, 10:05 PM
My grandparents could speak Persian. It was the language of the educated in India. Khatris and Aroras being urban and educated helped. And there is some shared ancestry between NW South Asians and Iranians but it's not recent. No one ever told me that we came from Persians. The most that ever happened was that Persians themselves would confuse me as one of their own in the states. When that started happening and I knew zero about genetics I started believing that there could be some distant relations with them. Coming to this site cleared that up quickly.

The official language across Punjab, administered by Lahore Durbar, during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time, was Parsi. And then you had the school curriculum that remained conversant with Parsi traditions, that is poetry and literature, as such people could actually speak a bit of it and were familiar with things like the Shahnameh, and Hafez, Saadi etc. And also, bits of Persian cuisine, with indigenous influence, lived on, such as Jalebis flavoured with Saffron and eaten with milk, that also lived on. It all started changing only when the Anglos changed the medium of education and the official language, in Punjab, in the second half of the19th century.
However Punjabis spoke Parsi with their own funny Punjabi accent, not the way Iranians speak, as my sister's friend told me of her own observations when she would try to teach them how to speak to it, in the US. However Punjabis tend to grasp it easily.And there are a lot of features in Potohari that cognate with Parsi, not sure if its a consequence of the Mughals introducing it or if its thanks to the much older Vedic language which Potohari, especially the dialect spoken in the hills of Poonch, has retained so much of.

Rahuls77
11-24-2018, 10:11 PM
What about steppe DNA too? Parthians (they descended from the Parni of the Dahae confederation), Indo-Sassanians (they imitated the Kushans after Ardeshir defeated them) and Samanids (they ruled in Central Asia) would have certainly had some steppe as well.

I was referring to the propensity of NW populations and their high caucasian %ages. The Steppe DNA is obviously much older and no longer as closely connected to the populations that carry very levels of it, in a nutshell,unlike the Iranians.

bored
11-24-2018, 11:44 PM
The official language across Punjab, administered by Lahore Durbar, during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time, was Parsi. And then you had the school curriculum that remained conversant with Parsi traditions, that is poetry and literature, as such people could actually speak a bit of it and were familiar with things like the Shahnameh, and Hafez, Saadi etc. And also, bits of Persian cuisine, with indigenous influence, lived on, such as Jalebis flavoured with Saffron and eaten with milk, that also lived on. It all started changing only when the Anglos changed the medium of education and the official language, in Punjab, in the second half of the19th century.
However Punjabis spoke Parsi with their own funny Punjabi accent, not the way Iranians speak, as my sister's friend told me of her own observations when she would try to teach them how to speak to it, in the US. However Punjabis tend to grasp it easily.And there are a lot of features in Potohari that cognate with Parsi, not sure if its a consequence of the Mughals introducing it or if its thanks to the much older Vedic language which Potohari, especially the dialect spoken in the hills of Poonch, has retained so much of.

So, during Ranjit Singh’s time, the average Punjabi was fluent in Farsi? I have a hard time believing that.

Kulin
11-24-2018, 11:54 PM
So, during Ranjit Singh’s time, the average Punjabi was fluent in Farsi? I have a hard time believing that.

Probably not the average, that's highly unlikely, but definitely every one who was literate was fluent in Farsi. This applies to most of the subcontinent too, except certain areas not influenced by Persianate culture.

bored
11-25-2018, 01:02 AM
Probably not the average, that's highly unlikely, but definitely every one who was literate was fluent in Farsi. This applies to most of the subcontinent too, except certain areas not influenced by Persianate culture.

Probably, only the elites were literate so I can accept that

Rahuls77
11-25-2018, 05:43 AM
So, during Ranjit Singh’s time, the average Punjabi was fluent in Farsi? I have a hard time believing that.

Certainly not fluent, however Persian was the official language since the Mughal rule and it was also used as the means of education. When Maharaja Ranjit Singh took over, he stressed on the need to educate the people, his subjects, to know the official language, in order to be able to read and write Parsi, at least in order to write letters and read government proclamations. There are claims that almost 78% of Punjab,under the Maharaja, could read and write basic Parsi, not that it was used as much, especially in the villages, where the dialects of Punjabi still remain in use.

Rahuls77
11-25-2018, 05:47 AM
Probably not the average, that's highly unlikely, but definitely every one who was literate was fluent in Farsi. This applies to most of the subcontinent too, except certain areas not influenced by Persianate culture.
Some of the officials might have been somewhat fluent, however they were certainly bilingual, with their Punjabi certainly more fluent than Parsi. However I can imagine what kind of accent even the fluent speakers would have had.
By the way, in almost all of Afghanistan, to this day, they speak Persian, even the Pashtuns in the South do it. And Parsi is virtually the 'official' language of the Taliban as well.

jesus
11-25-2018, 06:09 AM
https://youtu.be/351XAs8nC7w

agent_lime
11-25-2018, 07:14 AM
I wonder if these folks are more 20% Iranian? Someone get samples from them.

pegasus
11-25-2018, 07:27 AM
The official language across Punjab, administered by Lahore Durbar, during Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time, was Parsi. And then you had the school curriculum that remained conversant with Parsi traditions, that is poetry and literature, as such people could actually speak a bit of it and were familiar with things like the Shahnameh, and Hafez, Saadi etc. And also, bits of Persian cuisine, with indigenous influence, lived on, such as Jalebis flavoured with Saffron and eaten with milk, that also lived on. It all started changing only when the Anglos changed the medium of education and the official language, in Punjab, in the second half of the19th century.
However Punjabis spoke Parsi with their own funny Punjabi accent, not the way Iranians speak, as my sister's friend told me of her own observations when she would try to teach them how to speak to it, in the US. However Punjabis tend to grasp it easily.And there are a lot of features in Potohari that cognate with Parsi, not sure if its a consequence of the Mughals introducing it or if its thanks to the much older Vedic language which Potohari, especially the dialect spoken in the hills of Poonch, has retained so much of.

You mean Dari. Most societies in the world in the late 18th and early 19th centuries were illiterate and Agrarian and even in the UK , which was in the midst of the Industrial revoluation, illiteracy was high. Unless you were some administrative official, civil servant, educated aristocracy/zamindar the great majority of the people in this area spoke their native NW Indic dialects and were largely illiterate, which also means they did not speak Dari, because they likely could not even read their own native tongue.

Rahuls77
11-25-2018, 04:27 PM
You mean Dari. Most societies in the world in the late 18th and early 19th centuries were illiterate and Agrarian and even in the UK , which was in the midst of the Industrial revoluation, illiteracy was high. Unless you were some administrative official, civil servant, educated aristocracy/zamindar the great majority of the people in this area spoke their native NW Indic dialects and were largely illiterate, which also means they did not speak Dari, because they likely could not even read their own native tongue.

Firstly, yes, it is Eastern Dari that I referred to, there is another Dari which is apoken in and around Yazd, by Iranian Zoros.
Secondly, my claim of 78% persian literacy(the basic ability to read and write) is based on a claim by one of the current Fakir brothers of Lahire. And I kind of respect them, and therefore believe them.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-25-2018, 07:24 PM
So, during Ranjit Singh’s time, the average Punjabi was fluent in Farsi? I have a hard time believing that.

According to records by a family from Lahore that was part of Ranjit Singh's Darbar, 78% of Punjab's population could read and write a letter in farsi. It was Ranjit Singh's request as he was illiterate himself, and wanted his people to learn how to read and write, so they can write letters to him.

He came up with a solution along with his ministers, they created a Translation and learning guide which was provided to every village chief, after 3 months the village chief was required to make 5 copies of it and pass it down in village, and then whoever recieves the copy is supposed to do same, so it can multiply quickly. It was a very smart move. No wonder pre partition everyone knew Shahmukhi script or at least were able to sign in it.

Here is the Ted talk video you might be interested in. It's interesting how so many people don't know about Punjab's history and it goes underrated.


https://youtu.be/yWxDhT3ybUs

Rahuls77
11-25-2018, 09:03 PM
According to records by a family from Lahore that was part of Ranjit Singh's Darbar, 78% of Punjab's population could read and write a letter in farsi. It was Ranjit Singh's request as he was illiterate himself, and wanted his people to learn how to read and write, so they can write letters to him.

He came up with a solution along with his ministers, they created a Translation and learning guide which was provided to every village chief, after 3 months the village chief was required to make 5 copies of it and pass it down in village, and then whoever recieves the copy is supposed to do same, so it can multiply quickly. It was a very smart move. No wonder pre partition everyone knew Shahmukhi script or at least were able to sign in it.

Here is the Ted talk video you might be interested in. It's interesting how so many people don't know about Punjab's history and it goes underrated.


https://youtu.be/yWxDhT3ybUs

That is what I was referring to. This is Fakir Syed Saifuddin, he runs the Fakirkhana, a Punjabi Museum, in Lahore. Its in the walled city and very close to a friend's old Haveli.

Rahuls77
11-25-2018, 09:15 PM
https://youtu.be/351XAs8nC7w

They appear to have some traces of Iranian ancestry besides a strong Indian(Eastern & Southern) admixture. These might have been descendants of the Qizilbash, who came to South Asia in several waves.

Reza
11-25-2018, 10:37 PM
There used to be a user called rockman who had definite Iranian ancestry on a background of UP/Bengali - various waves from post Mughal era I think?

Y-DNA R1b. Shia by background.

This thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9326-Parents-Results-In-Need-Help-Interpreting/page2)had some of his results.

Rahuls77
11-26-2018, 12:41 AM
There used to be a user called rockman who had definite Iranian ancestry on a background of UP/Bengali - various waves from post Mughal era I think?

Y-DNA R1b. Shia by background.

This thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9326-Parents-Results-In-Need-Help-Interpreting/page2)had some of his results.

This one sounds like a true case of a descendant of the Persian migrants in South Asia. He was from a Bengali family with roots in UP. There were several of the Shia Aristocracy that were settled or forced to relocate to Bengal in the second half of the 19th Century, in the aftermath of the events of 1857.
But then there were Shia in Bengal that predated the ones relocated from the Awadh. The most prominent example was Iskander Mirza, 1st President of Pakistan.

agent_lime
11-26-2018, 05:17 AM
There used to be a user called rockman who had definite Iranian ancestry on a background of UP/Bengali - various waves from post Mughal era I think?

Y-DNA R1b. Shia by background.

This thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9326-Parents-Results-In-Need-Help-Interpreting/page2)had some of his results.

From that thread-

His Mom
Harappa:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 28.55
2 Baloch 26.04
3 Caucasian 19.94
4 NE-Euro 6.48
5 Mediterranean 4.96
6 SW-Asian 4.15
7 SE-Asian 2.97
8 Siberian 2.80
9 NE-Asian 2.19

His dad-

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 30.11
2 S-Indian 28.36
3 Caucasian 18.39
4 NE-Euro 5.95
5 SW-Asian 5.92
6 Mediterranean 3.37
7 NE-Asian 2.01
8 Siberian 1.76
9 SE-Asian 1.70
10 American 1.46

He was probably 30-50% Iranian. (depending on who his ancestors mixed with). Some of their proportions are not that different from mine.

parasar
11-26-2018, 04:14 PM
There used to be a user called rockman who had definite Iranian ancestry on a background of UP/Bengali - various waves from post Mughal era I think?

Y-DNA R1b. Shia by background.

This thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9326-Parents-Results-In-Need-Help-Interpreting/page2)had some of his results.

While he is R1b, his is a line completely distinct line from almost every one.

An ultimate central Asian origin is possible.

267597 https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1asterisk/default.aspx?section=ysnp
L278+ L389-
N93357 Joshi
267597 Varanasi (rockman)
Tajik1
bhu-0984 (Bhutan)
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3433-Waves-of-migration-into-South-Asia&p=334827&viewfull=1#post334827

Phylogeny of rockman:
K2015-GS000020407-Tajik1 (Tajiks, Tajikistan_lowland)
SK2057HGDP01299 (Uygur, China)
H2014-bhu-0984 (Bhutan)
FTDNA-267597 (Raza/Varanasi, India)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j04q5ivx7iah9h4/R1b%20Y-DNA%20tree.pdf?dl=0

midichlorian
11-27-2018, 10:40 PM
I have seen a lot of Indians(including Hindus strangely) claiming Persian ancestry...needless to say it’s mostly false but it’s definitely more than just a few thousand.

The claim that because Harappaworld Gedmatch says all Indians are partially Baloch :\

Censored
11-27-2018, 11:32 PM
The claim that because Harappaworld Gedmatch says all Indians are partially Baloch :\

Baloch are not Persian.

26284729292
11-27-2018, 11:57 PM
Baloch are not Persian.

He’s implying that people think shared ancestry as Balochi is an intermediate group. I don’t like the Baloch group because I think there’s some Caucasus overlap on Harappa and I also think that it should be higher than it is in actual Balochi people.

misanthropy
05-14-2020, 10:33 PM
Very interesting documentary. Iranian migrations to the subcontinent were taking place since the Late Ummayads/Early Abbasids up to the Safavid era, mostly to escape religious persecution. A lot of the Shias were Syeds and many of their descendants later converted to Sunni Hanafi.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx19SV3kmis

deuterium_1
05-14-2020, 11:16 PM
Very interesting documentary. Iranian migrations to the subcontinent were taking place since the Late Ummayads/Early Abbasids up to the Safavid era, mostly to escape religious persecution. A lot of the Shias were Syeds and many of their descendants later converted to Sunni Hanafi.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx19SV3kmis

Persian migration to the Deccan and Awadh is well documented, it would not surprising if there was some truth to such claims.

Raza94
05-14-2020, 11:45 PM
I believe a lot of the Sufi orders came from Persia and they migrated mostly to the Deccan and Awadh regions. My own family claims to come from Abdul Qadir Gilani who created the Qadiri order of sufism and he comes from Iran

misanthropy
05-15-2020, 01:57 AM
I believe a lot of the Sufi orders came from Persia and they migrated mostly to the Deccan and Awadh regions. My own family claims to come from Abdul Qadir Gilani who created the Qadiri order of sufism and he comes from Iran
I have a Jilani lineage as well among others on my maternal side. Looking at my family tree, it looks like 5 gens after Abdul Qadir Jilani, that descendent arrived at Allahabad directly from Baghdad. This is the common branch point to where they spread into the Deccan region.

Raza94
05-15-2020, 04:05 AM
I have a Jilani lineage as well among others on my maternal side. Looking at my family tree, it looks like 5 gens after Abdul Qadir Jilani, that descendent arrived at Allahabad directly from Baghdad. This is the common branch point to where they spread into the Deccan region.

Oh wow I didn't know that, did those same people by any chance go into Punjab as well?

jesus
05-15-2020, 05:08 AM
Very interesting documentary. Iranian migrations to the subcontinent were taking place since the Late Ummayads/Early Abbasids up to the Safavid era, mostly to escape religious persecution. A lot of the Shias were Syeds and many of their descendants later converted to Sunni Hanafi.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx19SV3kmis

They continued long after the safavids btw

misanthropy
05-15-2020, 05:39 AM
Oh wow I didn't know that, did those same people by any chance go into Punjab as well?

You know, I'm not sure. But that documentary I posted mentioned that Multan in Punjab is where a lot of Syeds entered the subcontinent.

deuterium_1
05-15-2020, 08:42 AM
They continued long after the safavids btw

The Qutub Shahis of Golconda and the second Nawab of Awadh, Safdar Jang were both descended from the Qara Qoyunlu who ruled in northwest Iran and south-east Turkey in the 15th Century AD.

This article by Vladimir Minorsky is worth a read:

The Qara-qoyunlu and the Qutb-shāhs (Turkmenica, 10)
V. Minorsky
Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London
Vol. 17, No. 1 (1955), pp. 50-73

https://www.jstor.org/stable/609229?seq=1


Awadh has considerable Persian influence especially around Lucknow, Ayatollah Khomeini's grandfather Syed Musavi Kintoori "Hindi" was born in Kintoor, Barabanki district. Today Lucknow remains centre of Shiism in India with particular interest from the Iranian government. They used to also send money to Najaf,Kazimayn and Karbala to help maintain sacred sites for Shia there. In more recent times, the Shia of Lucknow were traditionally a votebank for the BJP in India which has now changed since the CAA-NRC protests.

Justin Jones' "Shi'a Islam in Colonial India: Religion, Community and Sectarianism" is also worth checking out