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View Full Version : Current R-L151 Figures from the FTDNA database



MitchellSince1893
11-25-2018, 07:01 PM
L151
------------------------
P312 33,349
>R-Z290 19,213
>>L21 19,206
>>BY22760 5

>DF27 5,827

>U152 5,408

>DF19 731

>L238 178

>DF99 156

>>ZZ37_1 92

>Y18211 11

>A9063 7

>BY25512 2
------------------------
U106 12,303
------------------------
S1194 403

EDIT: Posted this in the wrong section of R. Oh well.

MitchellSince1893
11-25-2018, 07:24 PM
Current population figures are full of pitfalls in attempting to extrapolate ancient history, but I find the following of interest

Of these 4 smaller haplogroups...S1194 and the three P312 haplogroups (DF19, L238, DF99); at least 1 sample of each these four branches is found in these countries (excluding UK and Ireland):

Austria
Denmark
Germany
Italy
Poland

Ancient dna will eventually provide an answer, but this could be a hint that early branches of L151 had rapid growth from an area somewhere between the Alps and the Baltic. I know for some of you, this is a "no duh" statement and for others it might be controversial.

msmarjoribanks
11-25-2018, 09:25 PM
L151
------------------------
P312 33,349
>R-Z290 19,213
>>L21 19,206
>>BY22760 5

>DF27 5,827

>U152 5,408

>DF19 731

>L238 178

>DF99 156

>>ZZ37_1 92

>Y18211 11

>A9063 7

>BY25512 2
------------------------
U106 12,303
------------------------
S1194 403

EDIT: Posted this in the wrong section R. Oh well.

Where do you get these? Do you have to be an admin?

Based on project members only, since that's all I know how to check:

L21 -- 7159 (included for comparison)
DF63 -- 233 (I'd be interested in total numbers for this group)

I did a breakdown of DF63 that I'll put in that thread.

MitchellSince1893
11-25-2018, 11:27 PM
double post

MitchellSince1893
11-25-2018, 11:28 PM
Where do you get these? Do you have to be an admin?

Based on project members only, since that's all I know how to check:

L21 -- 7159 (included for comparison)
DF63 -- 233 (I'd be interested in total numbers for this group)

I did a breakdown of DF63 that I'll put in that thread.

No need to be an FTDNA admin... available to general public. Discussed here

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15929-Sample-Bias&p=520299&viewfull=1#post520299

1. Go to the top of the tree and click on "A".
2. Then click on 3 dots to the right of the top line "A-PR292"
3. Select "Country Report"

This will show you the total number of kits, currently 162,525, and the total for each country

msmarjoribanks
11-26-2018, 05:29 PM
Thank you! I had no idea you could see all that, very helpful.

To add R-DF63, 322 total participants. I'll put the updated country information in the DF63 thread.

GoldenHind
11-27-2018, 12:21 AM
Current population figures are full of pitfalls in attempting to extrapolate ancient history, but I find the following of interest

Of these 4 smaller haplogroups...S1194 and the three P312 haplogroups (DF19, L238, DF99); at least 1 sample of each these four branches is found in these countries (excluding UK and Ireland):

Austria
Denmark
Germany
Italy
Poland

I am not ware of a DF19 with ancestry from Denmark. However while I don't know about S1194, there are multiple examples of DF19, L238 and DF99 from Sweden.

[/QUOTE] Ancient dna will eventually provide an answer, but this could be a hint that early branches of L151 had rapid growth from an area somewhere between the Alps and the Baltic. I know for some of you, this is a "no duh" statement and for others it might be controversial.[/QUOTE]

I have suspected a similar scenario for some time. I believe it is unclear whether some spread to the north only after arriving at the Alps, or they divided into different directions before arriving in the Alpine region.

rms2
11-27-2018, 12:29 AM
Current population figures are full of pitfalls in attempting to extrapolate ancient history, but I find the following of interest

Of these 4 smaller haplogroups...S1194 and the three P312 haplogroups (DF19, L238, DF99); at least 1 sample of each these four branches is found in these countries (excluding UK and Ireland):

Austria
Denmark
Germany
Italy
Poland

Ancient dna will eventually provide an answer, but this could be a hint that early branches of L151 had rapid growth from an area somewhere between the Alps and the Baltic. I know for some of you, this is a "no duh" statement and for others it might be controversial.

You were right to begin that post with the caveat you did.

I cringe when I see anyone using modern distribution to infer haplogroup origin, expansion points, history, etc. It really can't be done, and so much baloney has come from trying it over the years.

MitchellSince1893
11-27-2018, 12:37 AM
I am not ware of a DF19 with ancestry from Denmark. However while I don't know about S1194, there are multiple examples of DF19, L238 and DF99 from Sweden.


Ancient dna will eventually provide an answer, but this could be a hint that early branches of L151 had rapid growth from an area somewhere between the Alps and the Baltic. I know for some of you, this is a "no duh" statement and for others it might be controversial.

I have suspected a similar scenario for some time. I believe it is unclear whether some spread to the north only after arriving at the Alps, or they divided into different directions before arriving in the Alpine region.

FTDNA database shows 1 DF19 from Denmark.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/44/b6/cd/44b6cd509a8f237eb5e38a47a4377c50.png

Dewsloth
11-27-2018, 12:38 AM
I am not ware of a DF19 with ancestry from Denmark. However while I don't know about S1194, there are multiple examples of DF19, L238 and DF99 from Sweden.
.

So far there is one that I know of. You can see him on the Big Tree:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=183

There are 5 Swedes and 3 Norwegians who have done Big Y in the DF19 group, but except for one DF88* from Norway, they are not on Alex's tree; so the Dane is punching above his statistical weight.

Also I think that 731 DF19s in the above has to be a typo. Maybe 371? I wish there were that many of us reporting...

MitchellSince1893
11-27-2018, 01:25 AM
L151
------------------------
P312 33,349
>R-Z290 19,213
>>L21 19,206
>>BY22760 5

>DF27 5,827

>U152 5,408

>DF19 731

>L238 178

>DF99 156

>>ZZ37_1 92

>Y18211 11

>A9063 7

>BY25512 2
------------------------
U106 12,303
------------------------
S1194 403


I wish FTDNA would send an automatic invite to those that test positive for a haplogroup to join the corresponding FTDNA project(s).
Currently only 51% of DF19, 46% of DF27+, 44% of U152+, 40% of U106, 37% of L21+, 22% of S1194+ have joined their respective FTDNA projects.

L238 and DF99 are doing really good in this regard. 94% and 85% respectively have joined their projects. These smaller projects do have a more manageable job than the bigger ones. This past year the U152 project dramatically expanded its staff to handle the ever increasing workload. Can you imagine the workload of trying to manage the R1b project (over 20000 members)?

MitchellSince1893
11-27-2018, 02:00 AM
So far there is one that I know of. You can see him on the Big Tree:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=183

There are 5 Swedes and 3 Norwegians who have done Big Y in the DF19 group, but except for one DF88* from Norway, they are not on Alex's tree; so the Dane is punching above his statistical weight.

Also I think that 731 DF19s in the above has to be a typo. Maybe 371? I wish there were that many of us reporting...

731 is correct.
England 74
Germany 68
Scotland 58
US 30
Ireland 27
United Kingdom 22
Belgium 13
Netherlands 12
Northern Ireland 10
France 8
Canada 6
Sweden 6
Norway 5
Wales 5
Czech Republic 4
US (Native American) 3
Poland 3
Austria 1
Switzerland 1
Luxembourg 1
Portugal 1
Guyana 1 1
Denmark 1
Italy 1
Isle of Man 1
Unknown Origin 369

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/2f/5b/dc2f5bffda58414e0c82204d19baaf97.png

GoldenHind
11-27-2018, 02:01 AM
You were right to begin that post with the caveat you did.

I cringe when I see anyone using modern distribution to infer haplogroup origin, expansion points, history, etc. It really can't be done, and so much baloney has come from trying it over the years.

Yes, a good case in point are those who concluded L21 must have originated in Britain because of its modern frequency there. Modern distribution is just one piece of circumstantial evidence and has to be treated with appropriate caution. However that doesn't mean it should be ignored completely. For instance you have argued for many years the connection of U106 to the Germanic people based on the modern distribution of that subclade. Jean Manco includes a number of maps showing the modern distribution of various haplogroups and subclades in her three books in order to draw various conclusions relating to the spread of YDNA. Nor do I think many would argue that the modern distribution of a subclade like M222 is completely irrelevant to its origin and history.

Webb
11-27-2018, 03:34 AM
It has crossed my brain on more than one occasion, but instead of looking at modern density of the various P312 clades, what about modern overlap? Is there one to a few places that every one of the subclades just below P312 can be found today? Is it also a coincidence that in Davidsky’s chart of Steppe component percentages, his Norwegian samples have the highest amount?

ADW_1981
11-27-2018, 04:08 AM
I am not ware of a DF19 with ancestry from Denmark. However while I don't know about S1194, there are multiple examples of DF19, L238 and DF99 from Sweden.

Ancient dna will eventually provide an answer, but this could be a hint that early branches of L151 had rapid growth from an area somewhere between the Alps and the Baltic. I know for some of you, this is a "no duh" statement and for others it might be controversial.[/QUOTE]

I have suspected a similar scenario for some time. I believe it is unclear whether some spread to the north only after arriving at the Alps, or they divided into different directions before arriving in the Alpine region.[/QUOTE]

Denmark is one of the most poorly tested countries in the FTDNA database. Of those few tested who fall under R1b, few of them have tested beyond M269 last time I looked at the project. It seems private now.

MitchellSince1893
11-27-2018, 01:36 PM
..Currently only 51% of DF19, 46% of DF27+, 44% of U152+, 40% of U106, 37% of L21+, 22% of S1194+ have joined their respective FTDNA projects.

L238 and DF99 are doing really good in this regard. 94% and 85% respectively have joined their projects.

It was pointed out in another thread that many members of these projects have not actually tested positive for SNPs that validate membership in said haplogroup. Thus the above percentages will be even lower. For example. Of the 133 members of the DF99. Project, 110 show up on the STR page. Of these, 8 of them haven’t tested positive for a DF99 SNP.