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griffinwhale1
12-04-2018, 12:52 AM
I have had a hard time finding more info on my family. I have digital copies of various marriage registries and baptisms; all in Swords, Balbriggan, and Howth. My earliest ancestor Stephen Griffin (same name) was likely born around 1776. His wife was born about the same time. This would be my 4th GGF. Since all of my known/documented ancestors were in Dublin and I cannot push passed 1776 in this area, I thought about migration from another area of Ireland. Ways to uncover this?

My hap group is under U106, which is RBY128969. Unfortunately, I am the only one sitting on this particular branch so no clues from FTDNA. Further, in looking at those near me on the big tree, it shows Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Sweden. It made me think of Germanic people of U106 and wondered "when did my family become Irish?" If others have thought about this, please add to this posting. Also if you have ideas about my line as written, please let me know.

Steve

spruithean
12-04-2018, 03:15 AM
It could honestly have been at any time. Like you my Y-DNA doesn't match the "haplogroup stereotype" of the nation my ancestor came from. However you would be right in your assessment of it probably being "Germanic" at some point. Possibly with the Vikings who settled Dublin and other Irish cities, or with the Normans, or dare I say the English (Plantation Era).

Were your Griffin ancestors Catholic or Protestant? I've found with my own family research the family's religion can shed some light (this includes Scotland too).

Nqp15hhu
12-04-2018, 11:59 AM
What religion were your ancestors? If they're Catholic that far back, they're unlikely to be anything else beyond that point.

I have read a few Y-DNA projects of similar English looking names from ROI, and an Irish name is often the end result.

spruithean
12-04-2018, 12:06 PM
What religion were your ancestors? If they're Catholic that far back, they're unlikely to be anything else beyond that point.

I have read a few Y-DNA projects of similar English looking names from ROI, and an Irish name is often the end result.

Agreed, however in the case of Protestants it can be a bit different. I have a couple of ancestral lines that are Protestant and then a few generations earlier were Catholic. Though I suppose there were several pressures for this sort of thing to happen.

GTC
12-04-2018, 12:09 PM
Have you joined the FTDNA Griff* surname project?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/griffith?iframe=yresults

A few references to Ireland and Wales for Griffin there, across the haplogroups.

No mention of Griff* in my copy of The Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families by LC Loyd.

Reference to Cambro-Norman here:

http://sites.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/irename2.htm

"The surname Griffin was first found in the province of Munster, where they had been granted lands by Strongbow after the Anglo Norman invasion into Ireland in 1172." :

https://www.houseofnames.com/griffin-family-crest

As yet, there is no Griffin in the Guild of One-Name Studies:

https://one-name.org/

Nqp15hhu
12-04-2018, 12:49 PM
Agreed, however in the case of Protestants it can be a bit different. I have a couple of ancestral lines that are Protestant and then a few generations earlier were Catholic. Though I suppose there were several pressures for this sort of thing to happen.

I read a stat on the Irish Origenes site, that said something like ,'If 85% of your surname is Protestant in the 1911 census, it has plantation origins'?. I think this applies to Ulster though.

It might be a lower statistic for Dublin.

http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/cq/index.jsp

spruithean
12-04-2018, 01:56 PM
I read a stat on the Irish Origenes site, that said something like ,'If 85% of your surname is Protestant in the 1911 census, it has plantation origins'?. I think this applies to Ulster though.

It might be a lower statistic for Dublin.

http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/cq/index.jsp

I think that is probably accurate. I've found with my own research in Ulster that the majority of Protestant surnames in my tree are just that and not from Catholic roots, however I still have some Catholic ancestors becoming Protestants, however that seems to be restricted to ancestors from ROI and less so in NI.

griffinwhale1
12-05-2018, 01:50 AM
spruithean -My paper trail has all RC documents from baptisms to marriages.Any other thoughts? I'm on YFull and Ytree too - but damn if I'm not sitting on a private hap group because no one has tested the same.

I went digging last night reading about various Norse-Irish events in and around Dublin. Since many near my branch have Scandanavian flags at YFull, it just started to make me think. My surname aside, just got me wondering. Granted those events were like around 900-1100 AD or so (maybe earlier), but they settled in and around Dublin to Wales to Denmark and back, etc.

griffinwhale1
12-05-2018, 02:26 AM
GTC - I am a member of the Griffi* project in FTDNA. In fact I was the first to post to the group. For me, I welcome everyone's thoughts and ideas - but at the end of the day my nature prefers information closer to the science continuum. Which is why I delved into my DNA to help unearth more information than what a paper trail can tell. While my paper trail all leads to RC's in the County of Dublin (Swords, Howth, and Balbriggan) to at least 1776, I want to understand my U106 designation. The terminal provided by FTDNA is R-BY128969, a private group since its just me. Even when I use FTDNA's public tree to filter for Griffin's, none are remotely close to me. That is all well and good since at one point we all share the same surname of blank at some point ;) Since I hit a wall (momentarily), I decided to see if it was possible to determine pre-Irish since U106 is more Germanic culture. With that, I developed two goals as mentioned in my OP: push past 1776 with the help of others and also to see how or when I "became Irish?" A couple have mentioned Normans, Vikings and the like. Norse does make sense since I believe they settled Dublin - its a predominantly Viking settlement.

griffinwhale1
12-05-2018, 02:31 AM
Yep - all documents support RC up through my last known ancestor with marriage certs and RC baptism registries and their respective God-parents. When you say an Irish name is the end result -Do you mean like MacGriffin, McGriffin, O'Griffin? or simply my Griffin may be just Irish?

Has anyone dived into Gresham's website? When I did I spent many wake-less nights pouring through records and searches. I got to a point when the surname Griffin (exact spelling) started to disappear and variant spellings were more prevalent, I can't remember but it may have been mid 1600s to early 1700s. Names like MacGrufan, O'Griffey and O-Grypha and some others. Nothing with a Stephen or a variant though.

griffinwhale1
12-05-2018, 02:35 AM
The Munster angle: I had someone at FTDNA compare me to everyone in the Irish Munster clusters and a few others. Results were zero - given the fact I am the only person on my hap branch, comparing isn't a task just yet. So I look to others near me up and down - simply everyone north of Germany because of the U106 designation. The one thing I find curious (I think its at Yfull) is that many near me have Nordic, Danish, Fin, and Swede roots. The rest are what is expected: Irish, Scot, English and unfortunately half of the people don't know their paper trail origins to document or didn't take the time to fill in the blanks.

GTC
12-05-2018, 05:31 AM
While my paper trail all leads to RC's in the County of Dublin (Swords, Howth, and Balbriggan) to at least 1776, I want to understand my U106 designation.

I am also U106 and my ancestry is reportedly Anglo-Norman or Cambro-Norman, entering Ireland c1170 with Strongbow's forces according to the literature. My great-great grandfather hails from Swords parish.

Those who entered England as a result of the Norman Conquest (both during and after) were a mixed bunch, including men from Flanders among other regions where it's not surprising to find U106 these days.

If you haven't already, I suggest you join the FTDNA U106 project. That project's admin team includes some very clever and well-informed people who are continually crunching the numbers emerging from Big Y, etc. There is a Yahoo discussion group associated with the project.


I developed two goals as mentioned in my OP: push past 1776 with the help of others and also to see how or when I "became Irish?" A couple have mentioned Normans, Vikings and the like. Norse does make sense since I believe they settled Dublin - its a predominantly Viking settlement.

As you will have discovered, Irish BD&M records hit a brick wall c1860. To dig earlier than that usually requires inspecting individual church records. Over recent years there has been a push to make those and other records available online.

In case you aren't aware of these resources:

https://blog.findmypast.com.au/irish-genealogy-brick-walls-2308876156.html

spruithean
12-05-2018, 12:53 PM
GTC - I am a member of the Griffi* project in FTDNA. In fact I was the first to post to the group. For me, I welcome everyone's thoughts and ideas - but at the end of the day my nature prefers information closer to the science continuum. Which is why I delved into my DNA to help unearth more information than what a paper trail can tell. While my paper trail all leads to RC's in the County of Dublin (Swords, Howth, and Balbriggan) to at least 1776, I want to understand my U106 designation. The terminal provided by FTDNA is R-BY128969, a private group since its just me. Even when I use FTDNA's public tree to filter for Griffin's, none are remotely close to me. That is all well and good since at one point we all share the same surname of blank at some point ;) Since I hit a wall (momentarily), I decided to see if it was possible to determine pre-Irish since U106 is more Germanic culture. With that, I developed two goals as mentioned in my OP: push past 1776 with the help of others and also to see how or when I "became Irish?" A couple have mentioned Normans, Vikings and the like. Norse does make sense since I believe they settled Dublin - its a predominantly Viking settlement.

Sure the Norse settled Dublin however the leaders and others were driven out of Dublin when the Normans invaded Ireland. There are a number of possibilities as to how your specific branch of U106 made it to Ireland, be them Anglo-/Cambro-Normans, Flemings, the earlier Norsemen, or later English/Scottish/Welsh migrants in the Plantation era. Right now I can only recommend the waiting game. I am the only one of my surname (besides my tested relatives) in my surname DNA project who belongs to this haplogroup, however after roughly 10 or so years I finally got a match to a near identical surname (minus the patronymic prefix) with roots in Northern Ireland (though making contact has failed several times). Records in Ireland (and for many in Scotland) become quite scarce in the 1800s and earlier, especially with families who have made journeys to Canada, USA, Australia or NZ.

Being on your own twig of the Y-DNA tree can be frustrating. Especially since it didn't help clarify what you were looking for since the paper trail has dried up.


Yep - all documents support RC up through my last known ancestor with marriage certs and RC baptism registries and their respective God-parents. When you say an Irish name is the end result -Do you mean like MacGriffin, McGriffin, O'Griffin? or simply my Griffin may be just Irish?

Has anyone dived into Gresham's website? When I did I spent many wake-less nights pouring through records and searches. I got to a point when the surname Griffin (exact spelling) started to disappear and variant spellings were more prevalent, I can't remember but it may have been mid 1600s to early 1700s. Names like MacGrufan, O'Griffey and O-Grypha and some others. Nothing with a Stephen or a variant though.

Keep in mind that at some point there may have been a surname & Y-DNA disconnect. It's possible that an ancestor acquired the surname through a female ancestor or through adoption, or an unknown NPE event and an adoptive father whose surname was assumed.

griffinwhale1
12-05-2018, 03:09 PM
Sure the Norse settled Dublin however the leaders and others were driven out of Dublin when the Normans invaded Ireland. There are a number of possibilities as to how your specific branch of U106 made it to Ireland, be them Anglo-/Cambro-Normans, Flemings, the earlier Norsemen, or later English/Scottish/Welsh migrants in the Plantation era. Right now I can only recommend the waiting game. I am the only one of my surname (besides my tested relatives) in my surname DNA project who belongs to this haplogroup, however after roughly 10 or so years I finally got a match to a near identical surname (minus the patronymic prefix) with roots in Northern Ireland (though making contact has failed several times). Records in Ireland (and for many in Scotland) become quite scarce in the 1800s and earlier, especially with families who have made journeys to Canada, USA, Australia or NZ.

Being on your own twig of the Y-DNA tree can be frustrating. Especially since it didn't help clarify what you were looking for since the paper trail has dried up.



Keep in mind that at some point there may have been a surname & Y-DNA disconnect. It's possible that an ancestor acquired the surname through a female ancestor or through adoption, or an unknown NPE event and an adoptive father whose surname was assumed.

That is an excellent point you make and the waiting game may be what is necessary (however frustrating and likely won't stop me from trying to dig past 1776). My particular known ancestor had siblings, which I was fortunate enough to get help from Ireland Reaching Out to help uncover (hence why I was able to get records in the late 1700s - online docs for this time are really rare). Those siblings and even cousins share the Griffin surname. So if its been a female ancestor's name, NPE, etc - it would be prior to that specific time.

griffinwhale1
12-05-2018, 03:22 PM
GTC -


While my specific and private branch does not have a date given since I'm the only one - I am fine "guesstimating". With each branch older than mine there is a rough set of years between each sub. By the time my branch starts, it would be a very young branch; maybe 1000-1300 years old if I were to round (and guess). If I were to use that time range, there was just a ton going on in Ireland a thousand years ago.

griffinwhale1
12-06-2018, 06:21 PM
-GTC,

Your Z12 group looks very Germanic: Ireland (incl NI), Scot, English, Welsh, Norwegian, Finn, Dane, and Swede. Somewhat similar to mine -aside from mine is not likely the terminal SNP I will end up with. Since I have 5 additional private SNPs, I need more people to test and help with my branch. I had a great correspondence the past two days with a Griffith with Irish ancestry via Scotland. He was able to review my private SNPs to help me and also offer some guidance. Other seemingly Irish names "close" to me include Walters, McLaughlin and Roche (likely Norman-Irish as is Walters). He reviewed my data to suggest a relative would approximately be 700 years ago that cross with some of the people near me. Possibly a waiting game right now for others to test.

spruithean
12-07-2018, 02:04 AM
-GTC,

Your Z12 group looks very Germanic: Ireland (incl NI), Scot, English, Welsh, Norwegian, Finn, Dane, and Swede. Somewhat similar to mine -aside from mine is not likely the terminal SNP I will end up with. Since I have 5 additional private SNPs, I need more people to test and help with my branch. I had a great correspondence the past two days with a Griffith with Irish ancestry via Scotland. He was able to review my private SNPs to help me and also offer some guidance. Other seemingly Irish names "close" to me include Walters, McLaughlin and Roche (likely Norman-Irish as is Walters). He reviewed my data to suggest a relative would approximately be 700 years ago that cross with some of the people near me. Possibly a waiting game right now for others to test.

700 years is still probably out of a relevant genealogical timeframe but with enough people testing you could easily reduce that number to a more recent time. My closest Big Y matches are downstream of me and we are separated by ~1,700-1,800 years.

GTC
12-07-2018, 05:14 AM
-GTC,

Your Z12 group looks very Germanic: Ireland (incl NI), Scot, English, Welsh, Norwegian, Finn, Dane, and Swede. Somewhat similar to mine -aside from mine is not likely the terminal SNP I will end up with.

I've done Big Y and share a "terminal" SNP with an Englishman whose surname is a variant of mine. His family has a well documented pedigree in England. Based on that and other documents we are still in the Anglo/Cambro-Norman camp until we manage to get a match in Europe or maybe Scandinavia that proves otherwise.


Since I have 5 additional private SNPs, I need more people to test and help with my branch. I had a great correspondence the past two days with a Griffith with Irish ancestry via Scotland. He was able to review my private SNPs to help me and also offer some guidance. Other seemingly Irish names "close" to me include Walters, McLaughlin and Roche (likely Norman-Irish as is Walters). He reviewed my data to suggest a relative would approximately be 700 years ago that cross with some of the people near me. Possibly a waiting game right now for others to test.

Good to hear you've made some contact. Too many testers don't reply. Have you also joined the Ireland Y DNA group? It has something like 6,000 members, albeit with a wide range of testing depth, but you might 'land' in the middle of something interesting there.

griffinwhale1
12-07-2018, 02:48 PM
I've done Big Y and share a "terminal" SNP with an Englishman whose surname is a variant of mine. His family has a well documented pedigree in England. Based on that and other documents we are still in the Anglo/Cambro-Norman camp until we manage to get a match in Europe or maybe Scandinavia that proves otherwise.



Good to hear you've made some contact. Too many testers don't reply. Have you also joined the Ireland Y DNA group? It has something like 6,000 members, albeit with a wide range of testing depth, but you might 'land' in the middle of something interesting there.

I am am member of that project also ;) I have remained optimistic; In looking at Ytree - the block I am listed under seems like a mixed group spanning Ireland to Sweden. Very few share a common surname. The Irish names (my own included) have varying roots, but may give a clue. Let me know how off this sounds:

Names like McLaughlin have distinct unrelated clans in Ireland, similar to Griffin (my surname appears to have 4 distinct origins in(to) Ireland and are unrelated). McLaughlin has various sources, including belonging to the O'Neill's. Depending on the origin for the McLaughlin surname, it gives different meaning. But one in particular is interesting is that it can mean Son of a Scandinavian. There is only one McLaughlin in my block. I find that unusual given it has some prevalence in today's population; I would have suspected to see more. And why wouldn't it be with the Niall of the Nine Hostages if it belonged to that particular clan?

Like myself, it looks unusual when reviewing the R-S15663 block. There is also a Withers. No flag was shown, but the name has both Norse and Danish roots. Between the one McLaughlin who is attached at the same snp as Withers, The McLaughlin roots may be more Scandinavian. The other Irish ancestry in the R-S15663 block is a Roche - quite French and with Norman roots. We know who the Normans were, but prior to receiving land in France, were Scandinavian also. The Roche name grows from under 100 or so households in Ireland ~mid 1600s to well over a thousand births in the mid-1800s. So it became a prevalent enough name.

Is my Griffin clan, which is unrelated to the 3 more common understandings of the name have Scandinavian roots? My private SNPs tell me a connection to my block may have occurred in the 1200s possibly. This was a time of Normal invasion and battles. Would it mean that migration looks like this:

>>broadly Scandinavian >> settled in France creating Normandy >> set out to various UK location, including Wales and Scotland >> sent to Ireland and in time integrated?

Others on the R-S15663 block appear anything from Norway to Germany to English.

Nqp15hhu
12-07-2018, 06:30 PM
Is McLaughlin not a very Irish name from Donegal?

FionnSneachta
12-07-2018, 07:25 PM
Is McLaughlin not a very Irish name from Donegal?

Yes, McLaughlin or McLoughlin is an Irish surname but the name Lochlainn was a forename of Norse origin. However, this doesn't mean that everyone with this surname has Norse origins (like those associated with Ui Neill) but it is possible that there could be some who have the surname because of Scandinavian roots. The surname Higgins means Viking and Broderick is also derived from a Norse personal name and they're both surnames associated with Ireland. It doesn't mean that everyone with this surname might necessarily have paternal origins from Scandinavia. Maybe they just liked the name! I'm sure there are lots of people with these surnames who have done Y-DNA testing with nothing to suggest links to Scandinavia.

griffinwhale1
12-07-2018, 07:38 PM
Is McLaughlin not a very Irish name from Donegal?

It is, except the one in my block doesn't seem to be.

griffinwhale1
12-07-2018, 07:39 PM
Yes, McLaughlin or McLoughlin is an Irish surname but the name Lochlainn was a forename of Norse origin. However, this doesn't mean that everyone with this surname has Norse origins (like those associated with Ui Neill) but it is possible that there could be some who have the surname because of Scandinavian roots. The surname Higgins means Viking and Broderick is also derived from a Norse personal name and they're both surnames associated with Ireland. It doesn't mean that everyone with this surname might necessarily have paternal origins from Scandinavia. Maybe they just liked the name! I'm sure there are lots of people with these surnames who have done Y-DNA testing with nothing to suggest links to Scandinavia.

My conclusion was only based on the other people in my block. It's a small block but spans Ireland to Sweden and Norway.

GTC
12-08-2018, 12:33 AM
Would it mean that migration looks like this:

>>broadly Scandinavian >> settled in France creating Normandy >> set out to various UK location, including Wales and Scotland >> sent to Ireland and in time integrated?


Quite a reasonable proposition.

spruithean
12-08-2018, 04:07 PM
Quite a reasonable proposition.

Agreed. Although with most things genetic there isn't quite enough to say other routes aren't possible.

griffinwhale1
12-11-2018, 01:48 PM
Agreed. Although with most things genetic there isn't quite enough to say other routes aren't possible.

Very much agree. This thread is just hypotheses and guesses. When DNA tells the story from such a long time ago and paper trail dried up, filling in the middle of your tid eline leads to various stories. What was good for me, is reading as much as possible re: history and trying to lay things down to help make sense of it all. Not filled with facts of course, but we're human and filling in gaps is what we have at the moment.

MacUalraig
12-11-2018, 03:05 PM
McLaughlin is a well-discussed surname in M222 circles especially from the time the late John McLaughlin led our group. But there are also the Argyllshire McLachlans who I'm pretty sure John believed were unconnected. I haven't kept track of whether proven members of the latter have actually done any modern SNP testing. Their distribution in Scotland is quite different from McLaughlin which shows the typical distribution of an Irish immigrant surname. Really needs in situ testing.

spruithean
12-11-2018, 06:13 PM
McLaughlin is a well-discussed surname in M222 circles especially from the time the late John McLaughlin led our group. But there are also the Argyllshire McLachlans who I'm pretty sure John believed were unconnected. I haven't kept track of whether proven members of the latter have actually done any modern SNP testing. Their distribution in Scotland is quite different from McLaughlin which shows the typical distribution of an Irish immigrant surname. Really needs in situ testing.

With a cursory look on the McLaughlin DNA project at FTDNA most of the Scottish members don't seem to belong to R-M222. So it's probably reasonable to assume that the Scottish MacLachlans are an unrelated group. I know the Scottish MacLachlans and several other clans (Lamont, MacEwen, MacNeill, etc) claim to be part of an O'Neill kindred.

MacUalraig
12-13-2018, 09:05 AM
With a cursory look on the McLaughlin DNA project at FTDNA most of the Scottish members don't seem to belong to R-M222. So it's probably reasonable to assume that the Scottish MacLachlans are an unrelated group. I know the Scottish MacLachlans and several other clans (Lamont, MacEwen, MacNeill, etc) claim to be part of an O'Neill kindred.

Difficult to say since as usual at that lab most of their 'Scottish' data is too poor in terms of paper trail or even surname. There are only 2 people claiming to come from Argyllshire (base of the MacLachlans) and neither of them are McLachlans/McLaughlins. It puzzles and frustrates me when people put down Scotland as country of origin when their paper trail goes to Ireland or is stuck in the US.

sktibo
12-14-2018, 03:42 AM
Difficult to say since as usual at that lab most of their 'Scottish' data is too poor in terms of paper trail or even surname. There are only 2 people claiming to come from Argyllshire (base of the MacLachlans) and neither of them are McLachlans/McLaughlins. It puzzles and frustrates me when people put down Scotland as country of origin when their paper trail goes to Ireland or is stuck in the US.

The desire to claim Scottish ancestry is quite strong for many and it can complicate things at times

castle3
12-14-2018, 07:24 AM
As Scottish journalist Dr Robert Carruthers (1799-1878), stated: 'In the 17th century there was an absurd desire and ambition in Scotland to fabricate or magnify all ancient and lordly pedigrees'.

Nqp15hhu
12-16-2018, 02:51 PM
McLaughlin is a well-discussed surname in M222 circles especially from the time the late John McLaughlin led our group. But there are also the Argyllshire McLachlans who I'm pretty sure John believed were unconnected. I haven't kept track of whether proven members of the latter have actually done any modern SNP testing. Their distribution in Scotland is quite different from McLaughlin which shows the typical distribution of an Irish immigrant surname. Really needs in situ testing.

Interesting. I have Maternal McLaughlins (Grandmother is McLaughlin) who came from Donegal in the 1700’s, but also a Protestant Loughlin branch, from circa 1760.

I had thought that the Loughlins were McLaughlins, perhaps they are now the Scottish variant.

Another possibility.

MacUalraig
12-16-2018, 03:28 PM
As Scottish journalist Dr Robert Carruthers (1799-1878), stated: 'In the 17th century there was an absurd desire and ambition in Scotland to fabricate or magnify all ancient and lordly pedigrees'.

I'm sure the main driver at work is the extra depth of Irish pedigrees. Same thing can be seen in the way the Irish appended their genealogies onto Biblical lines.

spruithean
12-16-2018, 03:38 PM
I'm sure the main driver at work is the extra depth of Irish pedigrees. Same thing can be seen in the way the Irish appended their genealogies onto Biblical lines.

Definitely.

For modern genealogy it's unfortunate as many are lured into believing all of a surname and the chief are blood relatives.

Saetro
12-18-2018, 12:09 AM
As Scottish journalist Dr Robert Carruthers (1799-1878), stated: 'In the 17th century there was an absurd desire and ambition in Scotland to fabricate or magnify all ancient and lordly pedigrees'.

Tell me more.
I am very much aware of the Visitations of various English counties, with true pedigrees confirmed (even when they clashed with others in the same volume!) and false claimants named and shamed at the end of the volume.
I have been told that the Scottish heralds dealt with these matters firmly but privately.
So unfortunately there is no evidence kicking around.
Did Carruthers or anyone else go into more detail?

castle3
12-18-2018, 03:18 PM
David Sellar was 'Lord Lyon King of Arms' from 2008-14. Try & see his work 'Highland Family origins - Pedigree Making & Pedigree Faking'. He goes into detail re the reliance of many on MS 1467. He described some of these Highland genealogies' transcriptions as 'unreliable & ludicrous'. Sellar also noted that 'Families of undoubted Celtic descent began to claim Norman ancestors'.
Skene mentions a Mackenzie charter which claims links to the Fitzgeralds of Ireland as 'bearing the most palpable marks of having been a forgery of later times, and one by no means happy in its execution'.
Cináed mac Ailpín's role in history is also doubted by many. His supposed victory over the Picts was first mentioned around four hundred years after the event! Many believe he was a Pict himself. Fergus Mór's appearance in history is also fraught with problems.