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pgo1963
11-18-2013, 11:50 AM
I'd like to pull together a list of I-M253 men who have taken the new Chromo2 test offered by BritainsDNA, ScotlandsDNA, etc. Two are acknowledged on Rootsweb. Let's hear from anyone else. Thanks,

Phil Goff

rivergirl
11-29-2013, 04:12 AM
Have just ordered Chromo 2 for 66263, L338+
Will send you results when they come in.

cheers

Sluuki
12-02-2013, 04:41 PM
Phil ~ as you know, I've sent you my Chromo 2 results. KN said (in an email to me) other I1, Z73+ should also order the Chromo 2 in order to exploit 21 SNPs of interest in my result.

Roy Silfven


I'd like to pull together a list of I-M253 men who have taken the new Chromo2 test offered by BritainsDNA, ScotlandsDNA, etc. Two are acknowledged on Rootsweb. Let's hear from anyone else. Thanks,

Phil Goff

rivergirl
01-18-2014, 04:52 AM
Results are in for James, Kit 66263
How do I extract the Raw Data?

EDIT
I just emailed BritainsDNA support as the Raw files are not showing up on the results pages.
They have my brother as I-S1954

GabeGibeau
01-18-2014, 08:58 AM
Results are in for James, Kit 66263
How do I extract the Raw Data?

EDIT
I just emailed BritainsDNA support as the Raw files are not showing up on the results pages.
They have my brother as I-S1954


rivergirl,

It took nine days after I got my initial results from BritainsDNA for the link to show up that allowed me to download my Raw YDNA Test Results Data file.

- Roger -

Wilco
01-18-2014, 04:49 PM
I'd like to pull together a list of I-M253 men who have taken the new Chromo2 test offered by BritainsDNA, ScotlandsDNA, etc. Two are acknowledged on Rootsweb. Let's hear from anyone else. Thanks,

Phil Goff

Is there a list of I-M253 men who have taken the Big Y test?

rivergirl
01-23-2014, 12:22 PM
Received my Raw Data file today and have emailed the file to Ken N.
Ken mentioned last week that my relatives kit has a ton of new SNPs, so hopefully some of them are useful.

We are also waiting on Big Y results for the same kit, due in February.

Melcombe
03-15-2014, 10:54 PM
Hi. Excuse this being my first post - I have my BritainsDNA results and Im still struggling to understand the results. I am S-1954 (a subclade? of I-M253). I would very much like to narrow down its geographic distribution. All advice gratefully received!

David

rms2
03-15-2014, 11:24 PM
Hi. Excuse this being my first post - I have my BritainsDNA results and Im still struggling to understand the results. I am S-1954 (a subclade? of I-M253). I would very much like to narrow down its geographic distribution. All advice gratefully received!

David

I'm not an I-M253 expert, but the ISOGG I Tree (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html) shows I-S1954 as I1a2a1a1a, a subclade of I-S244 (I-Z58) or I1a2.

Maciamo Hay of Eupedia has I-Z58 as leading to branches that he has labeled as "West Germanic" and "Anglo-Saxon": http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

I don't know whether that is accurate or not.

rms2
03-15-2014, 11:59 PM
Apparently S1954 is also downstream of Z60 and Z140: Z58>Z59>Z60>Z140>Z2535>S1954 or, all in "S" nomenclature, S244>S246>S337>S440>S1953>S1954. Here is what Eupedia has to say about them:



Z60+ is found throughout the Germanic world

Z140+ is a strongly West Germanic subclade, found essentially in the British Isles the Low Countries, northern France, central and southern Germany, and Switzerland. It is very rare in Nordic countries. Isolated samples were found in Spain, central and southern Italy, Slovenia, Bohemia, Poland, Ukraine and Russia. Z140* matches the AS5, AS6, AS814 and EE haplotypes in FTDNA's STR-based nomenclature.

Melcombe
03-16-2014, 01:11 AM
I'm not an I-M253 expert, but the ISOGG I Tree (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html) shows I-S1954 as I1a2a1a1a, a subclade of I-S244 (I-Z58) or I1a2.

Maciamo Hay of Eupedia has I-Z58 as leading to branches that he has labeled as "West Germanic" and "Anglo-Saxon": http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

I don't know whether that is accurate or not.

Hugely helpful, thanks.

I think I'm going to enjoy this research !

rivergirl
03-16-2014, 01:30 AM
Ken Nordtvedt is collating Chromo 2/Big Y results for the I1 Haplogroup.

Ken posts on the I1 Haplogroup mailing list at Rootsweb. You can browse the archived messages without actually joining the list from here.
http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/DNA/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I.html

If you havnt sent Ken your raw files, you should consider doing so.

His following webpage has files with the different branches
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/
Chromo2Z58.pptx has S1954/YSC00261 and subclades.

There is also a Z140 project at FTDNA,, they have a Facebook group collecting and discussing results aswell.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Z140/default.aspx?section=yresults/

pyromatic
03-16-2014, 02:20 PM
I'm not an I-M253 expert, but the ISOGG I Tree (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html) shows I-S1954 as I1a2a1a1a, a subclade of I-S244 (I-Z58) or I1a2.

Maciamo Hay of Eupedia has I-Z58 as leading to branches that he has labeled as "West Germanic" and "Anglo-Saxon": http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

I don't know whether that is accurate or not.

The maps at Eupedia are certainly very nice and well-done, but I wouldn't put too much into some of the hypotheses pushed by Eupedia. I1-Z140 and its subclades definitely have a bit more of a continental pull with a westward bias, but they are by no means solely associated with the Angles, Saxons, etc. Using Anglo-Saxon, Norse, Bothnian, etc in the names of these clades was, I believe, Nordtvedt's way of suggesting a geographic distribution and not necessarily the origin/identity of the clade's founder and the mechanism of expansion of the clade.

All that said, Melcombe, it appears you're from southern UK; so it's highly likely that your I1-S1954 paternal lineage is consistent with the current understanding of the migration of some continental Germanic tribes to southern and south-eastern England. Have you done any other testing?

Melcombe
03-16-2014, 04:40 PM
The maps at Eupedia are certainly very nice and well-done, but I wouldn't put too much into some of the hypotheses pushed by Eupedia. I1-Z140 and its subclades definitely have a bit more of a continental pull with a westward bias, but they are by no means solely associated with the Angles, Saxons, etc. Using Anglo-Saxon, Norse, Bothnian, etc in the names of these clades was, I believe, Nordtvedt's way of suggesting a geographic distribution and not necessarily the origin/identity of the clade's founder and the mechanism of expansion of the clade.

All that said, Melcombe, it appears you're from southern UK; so it's highly likely that your I1-S1954 paternal lineage is consistent with the current understanding of the migration of some continental Germanic tribes to southern and south-eastern England. Have you done any other testing?

That's very instructive, thanks.

My result came from my Chromo2 analysis - which has given me more data than I quite know what to do with. I had taken my first test in 2012, but I was 'upgraded' to Chromo2. Im now trying to master the terminology and to understand what reasonable inferences can be drawn from results.

Im sorry to say that I know little about my family history prior to my great grandfather's generation being based in Herefordshire and he and his brothers marrying into mainly Welsh families, but beyond that I suspect they were fairly itinerant and followed work where they could find it and the trail further back is quite lost.

One point of curiosity for me is the existence of a family in Cork with my surname who can trace ancestry through named individuals to the Norman invasion. Ive always been rather impressed by that sort of detective work, but TBH I find the potential to track ancient population migrations by modern methods equally compelling. Likewise, if I were able to discover as yet unknown relatives, that would be great.

I do think there is some merit in the slightly commercial approach of BDNA if it fosters broader interest in the science, but in the 2 years since joining, my results have already shifted from "Teutonic" to "Anglo Saxon" in their nomenclature - and I see that my S1954 result puts me in a subclade of I1a2 as of just over a week ago (according to a note on the ISOGG 2014 page). In Eupedia terms my possible origins have, it seems, shifted northwards from the land of timely trains and penalty shootout success to the epicentre of flatpack furniture and very safe car design...

Of more curiosity (to me at least) is that only 0.5% of the UK population share the S-197 marker which BDNA call "Anglo-Saxon". Presumably the colloquial term Anglo-Saxon encompassed a much larger population in the first millennium CE?

Im still waiting on my mDNA result from BDNA - apparently it's sufficiently uncommon for it to be still in the research phase (or maybe my order's been lost). I'm sorry to say that I can't really understand the idea of "population percentage" in my BDNA "All My Ancestry" results - but the full listing of the YDNA signature is helpful.

Regards

David

Wing Genealogist
03-23-2014, 05:19 PM
Just a note that the probe for S499 (Z301) is not working properly on the Chromo2. It is reporting everyone as negative, even when they are showing positive for its subclades.

I have asked YSEQ to make S499 available for purchase for individuals who may be S499/Z301+ but negative for its subclades. They said this SNP should be available soon (under S499).

Adrian Stevenson
05-21-2014, 05:12 PM
Hi Everyone, I have just registered on the forum.

My name is Ade Stevenson. I have taken the Chromo2 test via Britains DNA.. I am I-M253, with a subclad of I-S246. I don't carry the Red Hair gene. MT DNA is "T", subtype T2c1.

I am more than happy to share my raw data.

From my family tree research my Stevenson bloodline has certainly lived in Nottinghamshire, England since 1580.

Cheers, Ade.

lgmayka
05-21-2014, 07:37 PM
I have taken the Chromo2 test via Britains DNA.. I am I-M253, with a subclad of I-S246.
According to ISOGG (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html), S246 is the same as Z59. You might take a look at Ken Nordtvedt's haplotree for Z58 (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Chromo2Z58.pptx), the immediate parent of Z59. (It's a PowerPoint slide.)

Adrian Stevenson
05-21-2014, 08:13 PM
Thanks, I have already taken a look there. I have dropped Ken a line a few weeks ago but I have not heard back as yet? But I suspect he is a very busy man.

Cheers, Ade.

gjsmall
08-10-2014, 08:38 PM
I-M253. Chromo 2 results should be in within 2 weeks. (I have passed the 10 week estimate for results to be available.) I am on FTDNA, 23andMe and AncestryDNA also.

gjsmall
08-14-2014, 07:34 AM
Looks like I show as I-S1954 also. Initial results came in today. Positive for S337. Will do some research and see what it means.

gjsmall
08-14-2014, 07:53 AM
Sorry - I am I-S337 (I1a2a1). Negative for S-1954.

Ceri
04-11-2015, 05:35 PM
Hello Phil. Do you still want these?

Not A Number
08-21-2015, 09:48 AM
Hi. Excuse this being my first post - I have my BritainsDNA results and Im still struggling to understand the results. I am S-1954 (a subclade? of I-M253). I would very much like to narrow down its geographic distribution. All advice gratefully received!

David
Hi, Im S1954 and this is also my first post having just received my results and found the forum. I know nothing about my birth parents so any information would be fantastic. I was born on Canvey Island, Essex in 1962 and dont have much to go on. Have you been able to make contact with many other S1954 people as yet ?

BillMC
10-15-2015, 09:02 PM
I'd like to pull together a list of I-M253 men who have taken the new Chromo2 test offered by BritainsDNA, ScotlandsDNA, etc. Two are acknowledged on Rootsweb. Let's hear from anyone else. Thanks,

Phil Goff

Hi Phill,

I recently received my results from Scotland'sDNA. I am I-S1954 with H3 mtDNA and here are my Chromo results (I haven't a clue what they mean - please explain).

CTS10613+, CTS11042+, CTS11150+, CTS11575+, CTS11991+, CTS12057+, CTS12633+, CTS12773+, CTS2254+, CTS2480+, CTS2524+, CTS2569+, CTS3315+, CTS3654+, CTS3818+, CTS4293+, CTS4740+, CTS5139(+), CTS5248+, CTS543+, CTS5650+, CTS6327+, CTS6376+, CTS6383+, CTS6445+, CTS674+, CTS7301+, CTS7593+, CTS7922+, CTS8876+, CTS9556+, CTS9760+, L1002+, L1013+, L1053+, L1084+, L1098+, L1105+, L1118+, L1123+, L1129+, L1130+, L1137+, L1143+, L1145+, L1150+, L1179+, L121+, L1220+, L123+, L125+, L132+, L157+, L352+, L438+, L440+, L468+, L470+, L498+, L508+, L543+, L574+, L604+, L75+, L80+, L81+, L882+, L969+, M213+, M235+, M258+, M294+, M299+, M307+, M429+, M42+, M523+, P123+, P126+, P127+, P129+, P130+, P135+, P139+, P140+, P141+, P142+, P143+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P163+, P212+, P305+, PAGE081+, PAGE123+, PF1030+, PF1067+, PF1081+, PF1252+, PF1253+, PF1416+, PF1695+, PF1911+, PF256+, PF2590+, PF2592+, PF2615+, PF2617+, PF2619+, PF2621+, PF2622+, PF2624+, PF2626+, PF2629+, PF2640+, PF2651+, PF2653+, PF2655+, PF2658+, PF2660+, PF2677+, PF2679+, PF2683+, PF2684+, PF2685+, PF2688+, PF2690+, PF2700+, PF2702+, PF2704+, PF2709+, PF2716+, PF2718+, PF2722+, PF2734+, PF2736+, PF2737+, PF2739+, PF2742+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2760+, PF2762+, PF2775+, PF3495+, PF3500+, PF3528+, PF3553+, PF3649+, PF3654+, PF3706+, PF3739+, PF3753+, PF3807+, PF3819+, PF626+, PF643+, PF653+, PF679+, PF733+, PF744+, PF825(+), PF834+, PF869+, PF948+, S10441+, S107+, S108+, S111+, S11330(+), S12289+, S12547(+), S138+, S1572+, S163(+), S1953+, S1954+, S1962+, S1968+, S1969+, S1971+, S1978+, S1984!, S1985+, S19862(+), S1987+, S2006+, S2007+, S2013+, S20315+, S22865+, S244+, S246+, S337+, S438+, S439+, S440+, S4888!, S6378+, S63+, S8235+, SRY10831(+), V102+, V126+, V168+, V186+, V187+, V218+, V221+, V226+, V241+, V29+, V41+, V52+, V9+, YSC1297+, YSC1311+

drabcon
10-21-2015, 05:28 AM
David and others who are S1954+. . . .you should think about joining the I-Z140 facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/I1.Z140.YDNA.Project. They are collating information from all of the different testing companies on the Z-140 subclade and know in detail the various subclades and SNPs downstream of S1954 (YSC261 in the YFULL tree http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-YSC261/). If you want to go deeper they can advise on the appropriate SNPs to test.

dinallt
02-24-2016, 03:04 PM
I'd like to pull together a list of I-M253 men who have taken the new Chromo2 test offered by BritainsDNA, ScotlandsDNA, etc. Two are acknowledged on Rootsweb. Let's hear from anyone else. Thanks,

Phil Goff

I'm a bit late to the party but I just received my results from CymruDna using Chromo2.
I'm I-M253 and they tell me a recently discovered subtype of I-S2303

Mike

BillMC
08-30-2016, 12:40 AM
I'm not an I-M253 expert, but the ISOGG I Tree (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html) shows I-S1954 as I1a2a1a1a, a subclade of I-S244 (I-Z58) or I1a2.

Maciamo Hay of Eupedia has I-Z58 as leading to branches that he has labeled as "West Germanic" and "Anglo-Saxon": http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

I don't know whether that is accurate or not.

Why do they assume that I1 or I-M253 only came to the British Isles via Anglo Saxon or Viking migrations? There must surely have been interactions and migrations from the NE mainland of Europe before that time.

JMcB
08-30-2016, 03:21 AM
Why do they assume that I1 or I-M253 only came to the British Isles via Anglo Saxon or Viking migrations? There must surely have been interactions and migrations from the NE mainland of Europe before that time.


Unless I'm misreading Hay, he's not assumimg it only arrived in the British Isles during the Anglo Saxon and Viking migrations. Although, I would think it's fair to say that those two migrations are good candidates for bringing a decent portion of the haplogroup into the Isles.

At any rate, here are some excerpts:

" All Germanic tribes expanded from a small geographic core around Denmark and southern Sweden within the last 2500 years. STR (short tandem repeats) variations allows to divide I1 members in various categories. There are two main clusters, each with their own subgroups

[...]

the Southern cluster, most common in Denmark, Germany, the Low Countries and the British Isles. It corresponds to Ken Nordtvedt's Anglo-Saxon haplotype (originally Danish and North German), the Danish/Polish group usually has a DYS557 value greater than 15. the Western group, comprising the Low countries, England, Scotland and Ireland, matches the Z58+ subclade. It probably matches Anglo-Saxon and Frisian/Batavian ancestry ... the German group, is the most common type of I1 in Germany, France, Italy and Central Europe, but is also found in the British Isles and to a lower extent in Scandinavia

[...]

Z58+ is chiefly West Germanic, with a very strong presence in Germany, the Low Countries and Britain. It is also found to a lower extent in Nordic countries and throughout Continental Europe. Its age has been estimated around 4000 years before present ... Z140+ is a strongly West Germanic subclade, found essentially in the British Isles the Low Countries, northern France, central and southern Germany, and Switzerland ... "

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml#nordic

JonikW
08-30-2016, 01:50 PM
You're right that there must have been migrations from "Germanic" lands before that. For example the Medway neolithic tombs where I live in Kent have parallels in Scandinavia. I've seen one myself in Sweden. And where my Y line came from in the Peak District there are some Bronze Age rock carvings that resemble ones I've seen myself in Norway etc. However, the TMRCA for my S12289 subclade is 800BC so much too late for that. Are others the same? Mine fits with the Anglian movement up the Trent and into the Peak. Certainly the most parsimonious explanation.

JMcB
08-30-2016, 05:39 PM
I'm predicted I-Y3649 which has a TMRCA of 700 BC. I haven't bothered to confirm it as of yet because after my results came in, I had a brief exchange with Ken Nordtvedt who told me that judging from my markers he would place my ancestors in the area of the Angles, Saxons and Frisians in roughly 400 BC. So I'll wait until the time is right and take a BigY test.

Be that as it may, there's a whole lot of time between 400 BC and the Anglo Saxon and Viking migrations. So who knows where my ancestors went in the interim and how they ended up in Scotland where they kindly gave me the gaelic surname Mac Gille Brighde. Perhaps they came as Roman Auxiliaries, maybe they came on there own. Maybe they came through the Northumbrian expansion into Galloway or with the Danish Vikings around the Irish Sea. And as we are a sept of the MacDonald clan of the Isles, perhaps they were there in the days of Somhairle mac Gille Brighde and found his name worthy to take as their own

I suspect I'll never know but I'll enjoy imagining.

And who knows, maybe someday SNP testing will eventually tell the tale.

BillMC
08-31-2016, 08:51 PM
I'm predicted I-Y3649 which has a TMRCA of 700 BC. I haven't bothered to confirm it as of yet because after my results came in, I had a brief exchange with Ken Nordtvedt who told me that judging from my markers he would place my ancestors in the area of the Angles, Saxons and Frisians in roughly 400 BC. So I'll wait until the time is right and take a BigY test.

Be that as it may, there's a whole lot of time between 400 BC and the Anglo Saxon and Viking migrations. So who knows where my ancestors went in the interim and how they ended up in Scotland where they kindly gave me the gaelic surname Mac Gille Brighde. Perhaps they came as Roman Auxiliaries, maybe they came on there own. Maybe they came through the Northumbrian expansion into Galloway or with the Danish Vikings around the Irish Sea. And as we are a sept of the MacDonald clan of the Isles, perhaps they were there in the days of Somhairle mac Gille Brighde and found his name worthy to take as their own

I suspect I'll never know but I'll enjoy imagining.

And who knows, maybe someday SNP testing will eventually tell the tale.

You have the same outcome to your DNA-Y test as me - a Scot with a Celtic surname and a Germanic DNA-Y marker. ScotlandsDNA classed
mine as 'Anglo-Saxon'. It is a bit disconcerting for a patriotic Scot to have a DNA-Y marker which implies that they will be more 'English' than the majority of Englishmen LOL - so I have been toying with the idea that it may have arrived to Scotland prior to the 4th century AD Anglo-Saxon invasion - particularly since someone claimed that my marker is about 3000 years old. I now tend regard West Germanic and Anglo-Saxon as being one and the same thing.

BTW what exactly is this 'big Y test'? and who does it?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-01-2016, 05:47 AM
You have the same outcome to your DNA-Y test as me - a Scot with a Celtic surname and a Germanic DNA-Y marker. ScotlandsDNA classed
mine as 'Anglo-Saxon'. It is a bit disconcerting for a patriotic Scot to have a DNA-Y marker which implies that they will be more 'English' than the majority of Englishmen LOL - so I have been toying with the idea that it may have arrived to Scotland prior to the 4th century AD Anglo-Saxon invasion - particularly since someone claimed that my marker is about 3000 years old. I now tend regard West Germanic and Anglo-Saxon as being one and the same thing.

BTW what exactly is this 'big Y test'? and who does it?

I'm Welsh with a Welsh surname and U106 which is most likely Saxon, but perhaps that isn't surprising given a paternal history in Herefordshire and the late adoption of Welsh surnames. I did Chromo2.
I've just received a Family Finder test kit from FTDNA as a lead- in to a possible Big Y test, which is quite expensive.
I'm thinking about Big Y because it seems to offer the best hope for me of tracing my "Y" (Z326) origins and to contribute to better understanding by the U106 project group.
I'll leave it to others to explain and comment on Big Y as I'm pretty poor with the technical stuff.

JonikW
09-01-2016, 06:44 AM
You have the same outcome to your DNA-Y test as me - a Scot with a Celtic surname and a Germanic DNA-Y marker. ScotlandsDNA classed
mine as 'Anglo-Saxon'. It is a bit disconcerting for a patriotic Scot to have a DNA-Y marker which implies that they will be more 'English' than the majority of Englishmen LOL - so I have been toying with the idea that it may have arrived to Scotland prior to the 4th century AD Anglo-Saxon invasion - particularly since someone claimed that my marker is about 3000 years old. I now tend regard West Germanic and Anglo-Saxon as being one and the same thing.

BTW what exactly is this 'big Y test'? and who does it?
Hope I can help by pointing out that you are S12289 rather than S1954 (perhaps you've even got something downstream from that but you would have to check). Your S12289, which I share with you, has a TMRCA of 800BC. Our forefathers are likely to have come from the Ingvaeones ranging between today's Holland and Denmark on the North Sea coast. These were a mix of West Germanic peoples.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingaevones

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-01-2016, 08:21 AM
Hope I can help by pointing out that you are S12289 rather than S1954 (perhaps you've even got something downstream from that but you would have to check). Your S12289, which I share with you, has a TMRCA of 800BC. Our forefathers are likely to have come from the Ingvaeones ranging between today's Holland and Denmark on the North Sea coast. These were a mix of West Germanic peoples.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingaevones

My own Z326 (S11136) is estimated around the same period I believe, roughly 500BC which seems to give a probability of migration to the UK during the Anglo/Saxon period rather than earlier? There has been some speculation in relation to Z326 on links to possible remnants the Suebi absorbed by the Saxons. I'm hoping Dr, Iain McDonald will come up with some further theories maybe later in the year.
That's partly why I'm considering Big Y to see if I can get a better idea of distribution and migration patterns.

JMcB
09-01-2016, 03:28 PM
You have the same outcome to your DNA-Y test as me - a Scot with a Celtic surname and a Germanic DNA-Y marker. ScotlandsDNA classed
mine as 'Anglo-Saxon'. It is a bit disconcerting for a patriotic Scot to have a DNA-Y marker which implies that they will be more 'English' than the majority of Englishmen LOL - so I have been toying with the idea that it may have arrived to Scotland prior to the 4th century AD Anglo-Saxon invasion - particularly since someone claimed that my marker is about 3000 years old. I now tend regard West Germanic and Anglo-Saxon as being one and the same thing.

BTW what exactly is this 'big Y test'? and who does it?



Hello Bill,

I not really sure how ScotlandDNA uses their terms but if memory serves, Ken Nordtvedt divided I-M253 into two different clusters. The Northern cluster which he called Nordic (Sweden, Norway & Iceland) and the Southern cluster which he originally called Danish & Northern German and then for ease of use, he switched it to Anglo Saxon. So I think the term Anglo Saxon can be a bit of a catch all phrase.

Be that as it may, even that term is anachronistic because the TMRCA for I1 is generally believed to be around 2500 BCE, which is long before there were any references to the Angles and the Saxons. Putting that aside, I do find it fascinating that we can now trace our paternal lineage all the way back to that era and can also place it, more or less, in this general geographical area.

11310

How are ancestors got to Scotland is another story which remains to be seen. Although, I do think it's safe to say that whatever germanic DNA they were carrying at the time, it would have soon been subsumed by intermarrying into the local indigenous population. So that in just a few generations their descendants would have been primarily Scots or what would later become known as the Scots. And by the time you get down to us, I would think that all that's left of their DNA, is the marker they left us on our Y chromosome. And I'm thankful they did so. Nevertheless, I have no doubt that the part of me that is Scottish, is indeed Scottish.


BigY is a YDNA test given by FTDNA that covers a host of SNPs. It is rather expensive and may be a bit redundant in your case as you've already taken Chromo2. However, I really can't say for sure because I don't really know Chromo2 and in any case, I'm not an expert on any of these things. So caveat emptor.

JMcB
09-01-2016, 06:02 PM
My own Z326 (S11136) is estimated around the same period I believe, roughly 500BC which seems to give a probability of migration to the UK during the Anglo/Saxon period rather than earlier? There has been some speculation in relation to Z326 on links to possible remnants the Suebi absorbed by the Saxons. I'm hoping Dr, Iain McDonald will come up with some further theories maybe later in the year.
That's partly why I'm considering Big Y to see if I can get a better idea of distribution and migration patterns.

He certainly produces some beautiful work! I was just looking at his paper on U106 and it's amazing!

http://www.jodrellbank.manchester.ac.uk/~mcdonald//

JonikW
09-01-2016, 07:16 PM
My own Z326 (S11136) is estimated around the same period I believe, roughly 500BC which seems to give a probability of migration to the UK during the Anglo/Saxon period rather than earlier? There has been some speculation in relation to Z326 on links to possible remnants the Suebi absorbed by the Saxons. I'm hoping Dr, Iain McDonald will come up with some further theories maybe later in the year.
That's partly why I'm considering Big Y to see if I can get a better idea of distribution and migration patterns.

Being realistic, to really find out anything more meaningful about our immediate continental ancestry other than that we all seem to have a broadly west Germanic Angle, Frisian, Saxon etc origin we would need loads of ancient DNA from many locations, times and cultures. I would like to do a deeper dna test too but doubt that I could find out any more than the modern distribution of S12289 suggests, which looks roughly 50% Holland, 25% Germany and 25% UK. Anyone got any thoughts?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-01-2016, 07:21 PM
He certainly produces some beautiful work! I was just looking at his paper on U106 and it's amazing!

http://www.jodrellbank.manchester.ac.uk/~mcdonald//

Yes, I have a lot of time for him, he seems like a very nice chap too - prepared to explain things to people like me who only have a very basic basic grasp of dna.
To be honest I've learned more from his writings than I have anywhere else.
The reason I'm considering Big Y after doing Chromo2 is that the data isn't transferable to the U106 project group and Iain Mc Donald is one of the leading lights on that group. The more people who submit data, the more will be learned (hopefully) about U106.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi595_88O7OAhUMJMAKHU4kDDEQFggeMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.familytreedna.com%2Fgroups%2 Fu106%2Fabout%2Fbackground&usg=AFQjCNFfXC_5TVIXaGAxMmvWdCveK968dQ

JMcB
09-01-2016, 11:45 PM
Yes, I have a lot of time for him, he seems like a very nice chap too - prepared to explain things to people like me who only have a very basic basic grasp of dna.
To be honest I've learned more from his writings than I have anywhere else.
The reason I'm considering Big Y after doing Chromo2 is that the data isn't transferable to the U106 project group and Iain Mc Donald is one of the leading lights on that group. The more people who submit data, the more will be learned (hopefully) about U106.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi595_88O7OAhUMJMAKHU4kDDEQFggeMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.familytreedna.com%2Fgroups%2 Fu106%2Fabout%2Fbackground&usg=AFQjCNFfXC_5TVIXaGAxMmvWdCveK968dQ

I think you're very lucky to have someone like Iain working on your project. While there are a lot of good people working on the various I1 projects, I haven't seen anything comparable to what I saw on his website. Unfortunately, Ken Nordtvedt who did much of the foundational work on I1 is close to 80 now and has deservedly dropped from the scene.

I'm also going take BigY, hopefully when the next sale comes around. In the long run it's probably cheaper than chasing individual SNP tests and some day it may even shed some light on the migrational paths my ancestors took and when they took them.

JonikW
09-02-2016, 06:51 AM
Very interesting stuff. Do you guys think you can find out more about migration era origins now by doing BigY or is that something more for the future? I'd love to test at that level too but my budget prohibits at the moment!

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2016, 12:47 PM
Very interesting stuff. Do you guys think you can find out more about migration era origins now by doing BigY or is that something more for the future? I'd love to test at that level too but my budget prohibits at the moment!

I think it may depend on the particular group. There might be indications from other peoples' tests who have the same group.
I can only say that in relation to my own Y U106 Z326, there appear to be hints of a wide scattering of people rather than a flow in a specific direction (say Westwards) but it would need someone cleverer than me to draw conclusions from that. I hoping Iain McDonald will come up with something later in the year as he has suggested this may be a possibility. As he points out though, it would only be a theory as a basis for further research.

JMcB
09-02-2016, 02:32 PM
Very interesting stuff. Do you guys think you can find out more about migration era origins now by doing BigY or is that something more for the future? I'd love to test at that level too but my budget prohibits at the moment!

To be honest JonikW, I don't know. I suspect that it may be something that'll come to light in the future. On the other hand, I have heard some people say that they were able to get an idea by seeing where their SNP matches were clustering. Apparently, having Yfull do an analysis is also very helpful but to what degree, I don't know. Sometime in the future, I'll probably go back and read all the BigY & Yfull threads to see what I can see. At this point, I don't have the money and I'm not going to buy it until it's on sale, which I'm guessing will probably be around the end of the year.

JonikW
09-02-2016, 02:33 PM
I think it may depend on the particular group. There might be indications from other peoples' tests who have the same group.
I can only say that in relation to my own Y U106 Z326, there appear to be hints of a wide scattering of people rather than a flow in a specific direction (say Westwards) but it would need someone cleverer than me to draw conclusions from that. I hoping Iain McDonald will come up with something later in the year as he has suggested this may be a possibility. As he points out though, it would only be a theory as a basis for further research.

It's going to be tough. For instance, Tacitus, writing in about 98AD in the Germania, says the Suebi "do not, like the Tencteri and the Chatti, constitute a single nation. They occupy more than half of Germania, and are divided into distinct peoples with distinct names, although all are called Suebi". He goes on to mention the famous Suebian knot. I'm sure we're in for some fascinating aDNA studies that will shed a little light through...

JonikW
09-02-2016, 02:37 PM
To be honest JonikW, I don't know. I suspect that it may be something that will come to light in the future. On the other hand, I have heard some people say that they were able to get an idea by seeing where their SNP matches were clustering. Apparently, having Yfull do an analysis is also very helpful but to what degree, I don't know. Sometime in the future, I'll probably go back and read all the BigY & Yfull threads to see what I can see. At this point, I don't have the money and I'm not going to buy it until it's on sale, which I'm guessing will probably be around the end of the year.

Thanks JMcB. Can you please post here if you find out anything that would persuade more of us that deeper testing might reveal something beyond a broadly North Sea migration-era origin?

JMcB
09-02-2016, 03:55 PM
Thanks JMcB. Can you please post here if you find out anything that would persuade more of us that deeper testing might reveal something beyond a broadly North Sea migration-era origin?

Certainly.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2016, 05:56 PM
It's going to be tough. For instance, Tacitus, writing in about 98AD in the Germania, says the Suebi "do not, like the Tencteri and the Chatti, constitute a single nation. They occupy more than half of Germania, and are divided into distinct peoples with distinct names, although all are called Suebi". He goes on to mention the famous Suebian knot. I'm sure we're in for some fascinating aDNA studies that will shed a little light through...

Yes I agree. :) I understand my group S11136 was first found in a man from Tuscany, so the mystery for me is how did it also get to the UK?
This is a quote from Mike Maddi posted on the U106 project :-
"To specifically answer your questions (ethnicity and origins, again I have to emphasize that what Iain has written and what I'm writing is speculation or an educated guess, subject to change and more detailed information as more data is available to us. One thing I think Iain is clearly correct about is that Z326/CTS2509 is the most continental of the major U106 subclades.

In the case of my twig of CTS2509, FGC13492, it seems to be found among Italian men. FGC13492 was found in my Big Y results. My paternal line is from Sicily. Two other men have been found to be FGC13492+. One is a 104/111 match in STRs with me, with a paternal line from Calabria, about 200 miles away from where my great-grandfather lived in Sicily. The other is about an 88/111 match with me, with a paternal line from northern Italy, not far from the border with Austria. Given the northern Italian semi-close STR match with myself and the other southern Italian line, this small subclade is probably close to 2,000 years old, maybe slightly younger. I await Iain's next subclade age estimates, which will include the Big Y results of the northern Italian line to compare with the Big Y results of my line and the Calabrian line. But I think I'm not that far off from what Iain will come up with.

So, here's my working hypothesis about the ethnic/geographic origin of FGC13492 and how it arrived in Italy, a place where U106 is uncommon. (U106 is very much a northern European subclade, compared to P312, which is found at decent levels throughout Europe, including Italy.) I believe that the Lombards, an eastern Germanic tribe, possibly originally from southern Scandinavia (Sweden?), were the ones who brought FGC13492 into Italy in the period after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Lombards - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#Archaeology_and_migrations and especially https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#Kingdom_in_Italy.2C_568.E2.80.93774 - migrated southward in the centuries before the fall of the Roman Empire. Immediately at the time of the fall of the empire, they were located in Pannonia, in what is now the area of Hungary, Austria and the northern part of the former Yugoslavia. The second link I gave is discussion of the Lombard kingdom, which covered most of Italy, except Sicily and Sardinia, from 568-774. Also, Lombard dukes and princes ruled most of southern Italy until after 1000, when the Normans took over. This working hypothesis for the origin of FGC13492 found among men with both northern and southern Italian ancestry could explain the spread the subclade over a wide area of Italy and fits the time line of the history. But, as a working hypothesis, some new information may come along that would indicate different origin and spread.

I've mainly discussed what I think explains the spread of my twig of CTS2509 because that's what I know best. In general, I think Iain has given the best overall analysis of CTS2509 and my case just gives you an idea of what we may be able to say in the future with more data. A lot will depend on SNP testing by scientists of ancient remains. (I would love to see the results of deep SNP testing of the Ergolding remains that Wayne mentioned. There's a good chance that it would come back as CTS2509+ and maybe even FGC13492+.) Of course, it's genetic genealogists like us with results of Big Y and other NGS tests, who are leading the way in this area. So, again, I recommend that you seriously think about ordering Big Y, which will help us answer the questions you're asking."

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2016, 06:03 PM
Here is a further link about the Ergolding remains mentioned above:-

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjegci-ofHOAhXHDsAKHYF8AucQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stclairresearch.com%2Fcontent %2Fergolding.html&usg=AFQjCNH4HcN_u2kUz677GnvB6T29Saj6ag

JonikW
09-02-2016, 06:29 PM
Yes I agree. :) I understand my group S11136 was first found in a man from Tuscany, so the mystery for me is how did it also get to the UK?
This is a quote from Mike Maddi posted on the U106 project :-
"To specifically answer your questions (ethnicity and origins, again I have to emphasize that what Iain has written and what I'm writing is speculation or an educated guess, subject to change and more detailed information as more data is available to us. One thing I think Iain is clearly correct about is that Z326/CTS2509 is the most continental of the major U106 subclades.

In the case of my twig of CTS2509, FGC13492, it seems to be found among Italian men. FGC13492 was found in my Big Y results. My paternal line is from Sicily. Two other men have been found to be FGC13492+. One is a 104/111 match in STRs with me, with a paternal line from Calabria, about 200 miles away from where my great-grandfather lived in Sicily. The other is about an 88/111 match with me, with a paternal line from northern Italy, not far from the border with Austria. Given the northern Italian semi-close STR match with myself and the other southern Italian line, this small subclade is probably close to 2,000 years old, maybe slightly younger. I await Iain's next subclade age estimates, which will include the Big Y results of the northern Italian line to compare with the Big Y results of my line and the Calabrian line. But I think I'm not that far off from what Iain will come up with.

So, here's my working hypothesis about the ethnic/geographic origin of FGC13492 and how it arrived in Italy, a place where U106 is uncommon. (U106 is very much a northern European subclade, compared to P312, which is found at decent levels throughout Europe, including Italy.) I believe that the Lombards, an eastern Germanic tribe, possibly originally from southern Scandinavia (Sweden?), were the ones who brought FGC13492 into Italy in the period after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Lombards - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#Archaeology_and_migrations and especially https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#Kingdom_in_Italy.2C_568.E2.80.93774 - migrated southward in the centuries before the fall of the Roman Empire. Immediately at the time of the fall of the empire, they were located in Pannonia, in what is now the area of Hungary, Austria and the northern part of the former Yugoslavia. The second link I gave is discussion of the Lombard kingdom, which covered most of Italy, except Sicily and Sardinia, from 568-774. Also, Lombard dukes and princes ruled most of southern Italy until after 1000, when the Normans took over. This working hypothesis for the origin of FGC13492 found among men with both northern and southern Italian ancestry could explain the spread the subclade over a wide area of Italy and fits the time line of the history. But, as a working hypothesis, some new information may come along that would indicate different origin and spread.

I've mainly discussed what I think explains the spread of my twig of CTS2509 because that's what I know best. In general, I think Iain has given the best overall analysis of CTS2509 and my case just gives you an idea of what we may be able to say in the future with more data. A lot will depend on SNP testing by scientists of ancient remains. (I would love to see the results of deep SNP testing of the Ergolding remains that Wayne mentioned. There's a good chance that it would come back as CTS2509+ and maybe even FGC13492+.) Of course, it's genetic genealogists like us with results of Big Y and other NGS tests, who are leading the way in this area. So, again, I recommend that you seriously think about ordering Big Y, which will help us answer the questions you're asking."

As soon as I started reading your post I thought of the Lombards! Have you read their wonderful origin story? There's an aDNA project that wants to examine their cemeteries in Italy and central Europe but I believe it has had some funding difficulties. From what you've written I would assume your forebears were indeed among the Lombards. Oh, and of course they are generally thought to have been part of the Suebi, so fits your profile pic! Awesome stuff from a DNA test. Wasn't it worth every penny? And as for the story of how your line got to to the UK, read Myers' book on the English Settlements if you haven't already. Some of those older works are holding up much better to the DNA evidence than the new archaeology is, in my opinion. He says that during the main tide of fifth century migration, Angles on continent became the dominant element in a "mischgruppe" of people's passing into Frisia from the lower valleys of the Elbe and weser. Lombards or Langobardi would surely have been among them.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2016, 07:37 PM
As soon as I started reading your post I thought of the Lombards! Have you read their wonderful origin story? There's an aDNA project that wants to examine their cemeteries in Italy and central Europe but I believe it has had some funding difficulties. From what you've written I would assume your forebears were indeed among the Lombards. Oh, and of course they are generally thought to have been part of the Suebi, so fits your profile pic! Awesome stuff from a DNA test. Wasn't it worth every penny?

I don't want to be too optimistic because you can easily have reversals on this Journey. :) I am however beginning to suspect that my distant ancestors could have been Suebi/Lombards. It think it's also been suggested that remnants could have been incorporated into the Saxons and this could be how my ancestors came to Britain. If I ever get to the position where that is a reasonable assumption, I will be happy with that, further testing may help to confirm (or not). :)

JonikW
09-02-2016, 07:58 PM
Edited my post to add the Mischgruppe bit so not sure if you read it. Would all fit although I agree about the need for caution.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2016, 08:12 PM
As soon as I started reading your post I thought of the Lombards! Have you read their wonderful origin story? There's an aDNA project that wants to examine their cemeteries in Italy and central Europe but I believe it has had some funding difficulties. From what you've written I would assume your forebears were indeed among the Lombards. Oh, and of course they are generally thought to have been part of the Suebi, so fits your profile pic! Awesome stuff from a DNA test. Wasn't it worth every penny? And as for the story of how your line got to to the UK, read Myers' book on the English Settlements if you haven't already. Some of those older works are holding up much better to the DNA evidence than the new archaeology is, in my opinion. He says that during the main tide of fifth century migration, Angles on continent became the dominant element in a "mischgruppe" of people's passing into Frisia from the lower valleys of the Elbe and weser. Lombards or Langobardi would surely have been among them.

Thank you for the information. :)

JonikW
09-02-2016, 08:51 PM
You're welcome. Make sure you grow that beard in honour of your ancestors!

Stephen1986
09-02-2016, 09:49 PM
On Chromo2 I'm I-S142/I-S10891 and can trace my paternal line back to Goosnargh, Lancashire, England in the mid-1700s.

JonikW
09-02-2016, 10:26 PM
On Chromo2 I'm I-S142/I-S10891 and can trace my paternal line back to Goosnargh, Lancashire, England in the mid-1700s.

Would fit right in with a Viking origin. There were plenty of Norwegians on that side of the country.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-03-2016, 05:04 AM
You're welcome. Make sure you grow that beard in honour of your ancestors!

I'm working on it. :)

11339

JonikW
09-03-2016, 05:47 AM
I'm working on it. :)

11339

Truly impressive!:beerchug:

JMcB
09-03-2016, 03:16 PM
I'm working on it. :)

11339

That's a mighty beard you have there!

JonikW
09-09-2016, 07:58 AM
I hope someone who understands I1 STRs can keep an eye on this aDNA from Norway. The ASHG session is Oct 19.

PgmNr 1147: Y-chromosomal composition of mediaeval and contemporary populations in Norway and adjacent Scandinavian countries: Y-STR haplotypes and the rare Y-haplogroup Q.

Institutes
1) Institute of Legal Medicine, Medical University of Innsbruck, Innsbruck, Austria; 2) Department of Forensic Genetics, Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences, Charité-Universitätsmedizin, Berlin, 13353, Germany; 3) Forensic Science Program, The Pennsylvania State University, PA, USA

Abstract:
In the framework of the project “Immigration and mobility in mediaeval and post-mediaeval Norway” molecular genetic analyses were performed on 97 pre-modern human remains including genetic sexing and Y-chromosomal DNA typing.
All samples were subjected to molecular genetic analyses of the sex using “Genderplex” consisting of two different regions of the amelogenin gene, SRY and four X-STR loci. From 90% of the extracted remains (n=87) sex assignment was possible. Of these, 49 (56.3%) brought a genetically male result. All of these DNA extracts were subjected to Y-STR analysis using Yfiler Plus PCR Amplification Kit (Thermo Fisher Scientific) and/or PowerPlex Y23 System (Promega). At least partial Y-STR profiles were obtained from all samples.
A detailed comparison between mediaeval/post-mediaeval and contemporary Y-chromosomes was performed by searching the obtained haplotypes (HTs) in the Y Chromosome Haplotype Reference Database (YHRD: https://yhrd.org) comprising 154,329 haplotypes from 991 populations in 129 countries at the time of query (Release 50). YHRD searches of the pre-modern haplotypes yielded full matches plus neighbor-matches differing at only one allele from the query HT. Matches are presented with geographical and ancestry information of the contemporary HTs. For samples without direct YHRD-matches, this information is provided through their neighbor HTs.
AMOVA was performed using the YHRD online tool on pairwise RST values to create the corresponding MDS plots. The pre-modern HTs were grouped according to medieval and post-medieval origin and compared to contemporary populations from Scandinavian (Norwegian, Swedish and Danish), Northwest European, and Northeast European populations. Both pre-modern populations showed small genetic distances to contemporary Scandinavians and larger distances to Northeast Europeans with Northwest European populations in between.
As expected, an initial assessment of the Y-chromosomal haplogroups (HGs) showed that most of the samples were attributable to the main European HGs I1, R1a and R1b. However, one of the HTs seemed to be associated with HG-Q which is rare in Europe and hitherto little evaluated in this region. Network analysis was applied for detecting similar HTs in contemporary samples from Norway and adjacent Northern European countries stored in the YHRD. The outcomes of this survey should initiate a detailed SNP based HG-assessment of HG-Q candidate samples.

https://ep70.eventpilot.us/web/page.php?page=IntHtml&project=ASHG16&id=160120939

BillMC
09-18-2016, 07:27 PM
Our forefathers are likely to have come from the Ingvaeones ranging between today's Holland and Denmark on the North Sea coast. These were a mix of West Germanic peoples.


Interesting point and I forgot to point out to you that up until around the 14th century the Scots Lallands language was call Ingis. After that time it was called Scotis and later Scots.

JonikW
09-18-2016, 09:55 PM
Interesting point and I forgot to point out to you that up until around the 14th century the Scots Lallands language was call Ingis. After that time it was called Scotis and later Scots.

I knew about the extent of the Anglian Northumbrian kingdom and its influence on later lowland speech but I'd never heard of Ingis so thanks for that. Incidentally I spent part of the weekend researching and adding to what my paternal grandmother had told me about her lowland Armstrong ancestry. We really are a small island

BillMC
09-19-2016, 09:03 PM
I knew about the extent of the Anglian Northumbrian kingdom and its influence on later lowland speech but I'd never heard of Ingis so thanks for that. Incidentally I spent part of the weekend researching and adding to what my paternal grandmother had told me about her lowland Armstrong ancestry. We really are a small island

Sorry I spelt it wrong it should be Inglis. Look there is even a Scottish clan called Inglis:

https://www.scotsconnection.com/clan_crests/Inglis.htm

JonikW
09-19-2016, 09:24 PM
Sorry I spelt it wrong it should be Inglis. Look there is even a Scottish clan called Inglis:

https://www.scotsconnection.com/clan_crests/Inglis.htm

Thanks for the clarification and link. Interesting stuff