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afbarwaaqo
12-17-2018, 08:00 AM
do we have any mota dna? or are we just nilotic (around 55%) and natufian (around 45%)

Awale
12-18-2018, 07:45 AM
do we have any mota dna? or are we just nilotic (around 55%) and natufian (around 45%)

I'll try and answer this alongside that PM you sent me.


huge supporter of you anthromadness blog site, i really learned a lot about the ancient genetic makeup of my people and ancient migrations, my question is regarding the origins of our ancient nilo saharan ancestry, i was told that they and other sub saharan groups diverged from the same ancient khoi ancestor as the sandawe

Right off the bat, my man, I think you're asking questions we don't fully have answers for and won't until we get enough ancient DNA. Ancient DNA from Sudan (north and south), Chad, Ethiopia, Kenya and maybe even Egypt dating back to 40,000ybp would be needed in my humble opinion. For now, I think we're really still figuring out all the components within Africa and what, on a more basal level, makes them up like what's mostly in the San, what's in differing Pygmy groups like the Mambuti and Biaka, what's in West-Africans which actually seems partially descended from the same source as what dominates our East-African component and so on.

But, you can just look at it, for now, as a cluster of ancestry that makes up most (not all) of what's in groups like Dinkas and Luos. And yes, it makes up about 40% or more of the ancestry in Horner groups like Somalis and Tigrinyas. As for whether or not Somalis have Mota-like ancestry... It does seem like it from looking at nMonte data and I think also formal stat data given how well the two tend to sync:

distance%=4.7119

Somali

Dinka 47.6
Mota 10
Natufian 31.4
Jawf-Yemeni 9.2
Mahra-Yemeni 1.8

But I still have my doubts that it's that high (10%). Does seem to actually be there, though. Nevertheless, most of what's in Mota seems quite similar to what dominates in groups like Dinkas and the rest seems like something related to more Southern Hunter-Gatherer groups. An admixture cline I tried to explain here (https://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2018/06/southeast-southern-african-ancient-dna.html). I should also point out that it doesn't seem like you can simply explain Somalis' MENA ancestry as just Natufian-like, there's definitely something minor but Iran-Neolithic related that seems owed to a South-Arabian source in there. Honestly, I prefer to just wait until we have more aDNA from areas like the Horn & Sudan before saying anything concrete but those seem to be the broad-strokes of what we're seeing for now.

Hope this satisfies for now.

afbarwaaqo
12-19-2018, 01:30 AM
I'll try and answer this alongside that PM you sent me.



Right off the bat, my man, I think you're asking questions we don't fully have answers for and won't until we get enough ancient DNA. Ancient DNA from Sudan (north and south), Chad, Ethiopia, Kenya and maybe even Egypt dating back to 40,000ybp would be needed in my humble opinion. For now, I think we're really still figuring out all the components within Africa and what, on a more basal level, makes them up like what's mostly in the San, what's in differing Pygmy groups like the Mambuti and Biaka, what's in West-Africans which actually seems partially descended from the same source as what dominates our East-African component and so on.

But, you can just look at it, for now, as a cluster of ancestry that makes up most (not all) of what's in groups like Dinkas and Luos. And yes, it makes up about 40% or more of the ancestry in Horner groups like Somalis and Tigrinyas. As for whether or not Somalis have Mota-like ancestry... It does seem like it from looking at nMonte data and I think also formal stat data given how well the two tend to sync:

distance%=4.7119

Somali

Dinka 47.6
Mota 10
Natufian 31.4
Jawf-Yemeni 9.2
Mahra-Yemeni 1.8

But I still have my doubts that it's that high (10%). Does seem to actually be there, though. Nevertheless, most of what's in Mota seems quite similar to what dominates in groups like Dinkas and the rest seems like something related to more Southern Hunter-Gatherer groups. An admixture cline I tried to explain here (https://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2018/06/southeast-southern-african-ancient-dna.html). I should also point out that it doesn't seem like you can simply explain Somalis' MENA ancestry as just Natufian-like, there's definitely something minor but Iran-Neolithic related that seems owed to a South-Arabian source in there. Honestly, I prefer to just wait until we have more aDNA from areas like the Horn & Sudan before saying anything concrete but those seem to be the broad-strokes of what we're seeing for now.

Hope this satisfies for now.

thanks for answering both questions bro, as you've stated we're gonna need more ancient dna's to unravel more of these mysteries, do you think we might even have some bushmen ancestry similar to the eyle?

NetNomad
12-19-2018, 03:42 AM
I don't think Somalis do.

E-M329 (Mota's haplogroup, and associated with his population) has never been found in Somalis while it is ubiquitous across the Ethiopian highlands. For example, Ethiopian Jews have it at over 18%. It's also always found in Amharas and Oromos.

Moreover, when you take out the handful of first cousins from the Omotic reference samples stabilizing the cluster (no inbreeding noise) it does not show up in Somalis.

In addition, when one does intra-Horn PCAs, Somalis are always at the opposite end of Southwest Ethiopians (second axis). With whole genome sequencing with the European ascertainment bias removed this will only become even starker.

NetNomad
12-19-2018, 03:47 AM
distance%=4.7119

Dinkas and other South Sudanese Nilotes are poor references for the Sub-Saharan ancestry of Somalis. They carry additional West-Central African admixture not found in Somalis. This is why it is giving a Mota score to make up for it. It does not prove Somalis descend from Mota people or Ancient Ethiopian Highlanders.

Considering the above, I firmly believe the true Mota/Omotic/Highland Ethiopian ancestry is within noise level (~1%) to essentially nonexistent in Eastern ethnic Somalis.

blackflash16
12-19-2018, 04:48 AM
Dinkas and other South Sudanese Nilotes are poor references for the Sub-Saharan ancestry of Somalis. They carry additional West-Central African admixture not found in Somalis. This is why it is giving a Mota score to make up for it. It does not prove Somalis descend from Mota people or Ancient Ethiopian Highlanders.

Considering the above, I firmly believe the true Mota/Omotic ancestry is within noise level (~1%) to nonexistent in Eastern ethnic Somalis.

Somalis have some mtDNA L3 clades restricted to the horn, such as mine (L3a) and L3i. That would suggest there might be small amounts of indigenous HG ancestry in Somalis would it not?

NetNomad
12-19-2018, 04:53 AM
Somalis have some mtDNA L3 clades restricted to the horn, such as mine (L3a) and L3i. That would suggest there might be small amounts of indigenous HG ancestry in Somalis would it not?

Also L3h2 by the way.

That does not necessarily suggest Mota ancestry, but perhaps Ancient Lowland Horn ancestry. They could have been extremely different from Mota (split off by tens of thousands of years).

I stick to the 0-1% hypothesis for now.

drobbah
12-19-2018, 07:05 AM
1-5% Mota seems reasonable for Somalis who do not have recent Ethiopian ancestry.Obviously the upper end of those who score 5% would probably descend from galbeed clans who were in contact with the highlands.The highly admixed Garre or those dual identity clans like the Jaarso,Karanle,Gurgure or Akisho etc are outliers.

afbarwaaqo
12-19-2018, 09:04 AM
1-5% Mota seems reasonable for Somalis who do not have recent Ethiopian ancestry.Obviously the upper end of those who score 5% would probably descend from galbeed clans who were in contact with the highlands.The highly admixed Garre or those dual identity clans like the Jaarso,Karanle,Gurgure or Akisho etc are outliers.

garre's are highly admixed? i know they live near borana oromos but arent they for the most part fully somali?

NetNomad
12-19-2018, 07:02 PM
garre's are highly admixed? i know they live near borana oromos but arent they for the most part fully somali?

They are similar to regular Somalis. There is one Garre guy on 23anMe and he seems to have only a slight pull towards the Khoisan relative to Somalis on the old PCA chart (second axis, intra-Africa). This can be used as a proxy for Omotic admixture in further analyses. I think 23andMe has removed this feature though.

drobbah
12-19-2018, 09:53 PM
garre's are highly admixed? i know they live near borana oromos but arent they for the most part fully somali?
Well for one they heavily intermarry with the Borana and their language is heavily influenced by Oromo.Their language is completely unintelligible with those who speak Northern standard Somali.

transqabil
12-20-2018, 12:32 PM
Were Natufians, Neolithic Levantines Ancestral North Africans essentially the same people? One minute we are East African+North African and the next we are East African+Middle Eastern? Confusion!

NetNomad
12-22-2018, 06:09 AM
Were Natufians, Neolithic Levantines Ancestral North Africans essentially the same people? One minute we are East African+North African and the next we are East African+Middle Eastern? Confusion!

Probably both, but these genome programs have difficulties distinguishing them.

Awale
12-22-2018, 07:46 PM
Were Natufians, Neolithic Levantines Ancestral North Africans essentially the same people? One minute we are East African+North African and the next we are East African+Middle Eastern? Confusion!

I'd say they're all probably, on some level, similar in sharing Dzudzuana-like ancestry and ancient North-African ancestry which, I guess on a more basal level, would be a mix of something similar to WHGs and elements like Basal Eurasian. You can actually break a lot of populations down to mostly Anatolian Neolithic + Iberomaurusian, for example:


distance%=8.2858

Somali

Dinka 54.2
Anatolian-Neolithic 27
Iberomaurusian 16.6
Iran-Neolithic 2.2

--

distance%=8.9567

Tigray-Tigrinya

Dinka 39.4
Anatolian-Neolithic 36.8
Iberomaurusian 18.6
Iran-Neolithic 5.2

--

distance%=8.322

Oromo

Dinka 48
South-Africa-HG 1.6
Anatolian-Neolithic 30.4
Iberomaurusian 16
Iran-Neolithic 4


distance%=11.3814

Jawf-Yemeni

Anatolian-Neolithic 64.4
Iran-Neolithic 18.2
Iberomaurusian 17.4

distance%=10.7916

Ma'rib-Yemeni

Anatolian-Neolithic 64
Iran-Neolithic 18.4
Iberomaurusian 17.4
Mota 0.2

distance%=12.4684

Mahra-Yemeni

Anatolian-Neolithic 64.2
Iberomaurusian 18.6
Iran-Neolithic 17.2

Anatolian Neolithic (Tepecik samples) in this case being a stand-in for Dzudzuana. So yeah, alotta these ancient groups from the Levant to some parts of North-Africa were probably in large part made up of a lot of the same stuff, just in differing degrees and separated by time to some extent.


Also L3h2 by the way.

That does not necessarily suggest Mota ancestry, but perhaps Ancient Lowland Horn ancestry. They could have been extremely different from Mota (split off by tens of thousands of years).

I stick to the 0-1% hypothesis for now.

Yeah, I have a hard-time buying that we have about as much Mota-like ancestry as Tigrinyas and all the analyses until nMonte and formal-stats saw zero signs of that until now because they were being fooled by Somalis' drift or something. Hence my cautious tone with my previous post. I don't wanna settle on anything concrete until we get more aDNA from around our neck of the woods but, for now, I'll just say there probably is same. 0-1%? 1-5%? Idk, but there probably is some.

I'm even skeptical about this later South-Arabian looking stuff, to be honest. I explained as much in private to Lank:


I'll reply to your last message soon but first I'd like to share some nMonte models I've been sitting on for quite a while because I'm plainly bemused by them:

Basal:


distance%=8.2858

Somali

Dinka 54.2
Anatolian-Neolithic 27
Iberomaurusian 16.6
Iran-Neolithic 2.2

--

distance%=8.9567

Tigray-Tigrinya

Dinka 39.4
Anatolian-Neolithic 36.8
Iberomaurusian 18.6
Iran-Neolithic 5.2

--

distance%=8.322

Oromo

Dinka 48
South-Africa-HG 1.6
Anatolian-Neolithic 30.4
Iberomaurusian 16
Iran-Neolithic 4


--

distance%=8.3978

Luxmanda

Dinka 48.6
South-Africa-HG 5
Anatolian-Neolithic 27.8
Iberomaurusian 16.4
Iran-Neolithic 2.2

More-Recent:


distance%=4.712

Somali

Dinka 47.4
Mota 10.2
Natufian 31.6
Jawf-Yemeni 10.8

--

distance%=3.8164

Tigray-Tigrinya

Dinka 33
Mota 9.8
Jawf-Yemeni 29.2
Natufian 28

--

distance%=3.7922

Oromo

Dinka 32.6
Mota 21.2
Natufian 26
Jawf-Yemeni 20.2

--

distance%=4.2406

Luxmanda

Mota 39
Natufian 29.4
Dinka 21.2
Jawf-Yemeni 10.4


(Jawf-Yemenis prove the strongest fit for Horners)

What has me confused, my old friend, is that Somalis and the Luxmandan basically look identical once you discount the Luxmandan's obvious Southeast African HG admixture. I consulted David over this several months ago and he sent me formal stats corroborating this. They showed, just like the Global25 data above, that both Somalis and the Luxmandan had Iran-Neolithic/CHG related ancestry as well as seemingly South-Arabian related ancestry, totally contradicting the Skoglund paper and the Global10 (https://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2018/06/southeast-southern-african-ancient-dna.html) where, as you may recall, only Somalis showed such ancestry.

I really did not know how to make sense of this and kept waiting and waiting for new samples or for things to suddenly change somehow but the issue persists as you can see above; I ran these runs today with the latest sheets. So yeah, I wanted to know what you made of this. I'm also pretty intrigued by my attempt at a more basal make-up where it seems Horners are more Neolithic Anatolian (Tepecik) than Iberomaurusian.


How could a woman whose people left the Horn before 1000BCE possibly be part South-Arabian? It really doesn't make sense... Maybe you were right and Agamemnon was wrong, maybe this is a mark of something from Egypt and Iran-Chalcolithic related elements in Northeast Africa far predate Semitic speakers.

But, I actually caught something VERY interesting just now... I remembered that the best fit weren't actually Jawf folk but in fact Jawf+Mahra. As in, whenever I threw in every single Yemeni population, for whatever reason, we'd all turn up as a mix between Jawf-Yemenis with a little bit of Mahra but I noticed something else today which is that the Luxmandan is an exception:


distance%=4.7119

Somali

Dinka 47.6
Mota 10
Natufian 31.4
Jawf-Yemeni 9.2
Mahra-Yemeni 1.8

--

distance%=3.8146

Tigray-Tigrinya

Dinka 33.2
Mota 9.6
Natufian 27.4
Jawf-Yemeni 24
Mahra-Yemeni 5.8

--

distance%=3.7899

Oromo

Dinka 32.6
Mota 21.4
Natufian 25.2
Jawf-Yemeni 12.6
Mahra-Yemeni 8.2

--

distance%=4.2302

Luxmanda

Mota 39
Natufian 28.8
Dinka 21.2
Mahra-Yemeni 5.6
Ma'rib-Yemeni 5.4

She turns up as Ma'rib+Mahra rather than majority Jawf + some Mahra like the modern Horner groups. Maybe this marks that there was a more ancient layer of something Egyptian or South-Arabian in the Horn that later got replaced by something Ethiosemitic speaking (Jawf) in the rest of us? But it is still quite suspicious that the Luxmandan's admixture levels (the amount of South-Arabian-like ancestry) is still comparable to the admixture level of Somalis (~11%).

I also find the appearance of the Mehri-like ancestry very interesting given that they are Modern South Arabian speakers who are only now being slowly Arabized, they're also somewhat phenotypically unique, being darker-skinned than is normal for most Peninsular Arabians (https://www.google.com/search?q=Mehri+people&safe=active&client=firefox-b-1-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrgo60t7reAhUB8IMKHa9gCuYQ_AUIEigB&biw=1408&bih=724). These are traits they share with other MSA speakers like the Soqotri (https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&client=firefox-b-1-ab&biw=1408&bih=724&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=8rzeW97kILDEjgSZop-gDA&q=Soqotri+people&oq=Soqotri+people&gs_l=img.3..0.89742.91832..91957...0.0..0.338.3826 .3-12......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i67j0i30j0i5i30j0i24.aPUN_DQ1kpo) . Perhaps they mark a more ancient layer of ancestry in Yemen. Maybe something to do with the apparently very real Erythraeic substratum in the MSA languages? Maybe there was some serious contact between Yemen and the Horn (far enough to extend into inter-mixture on both sides) going back earlier than 1000BCE? Things would appear more clear-cut if the Luxmandan only showed Mahra-like ancestry but she still shows some Ma'rib as you can see and I don't know much about the folk in that governorate but I assume they're not too different from other Yemenis. Or maybe I'm wrong... It is interesting how only she shows a Ma'rib affinity while the rest of us favor Jawf... Points to there being at least some difference between what's in the Somali-Tigrinya-Oromo bunch and what's in her.

Anyway, sorry for keeping this to myself for so long, 7awey. I was bemused and didn't want to waste your or anyone's time with might've been mere glitches with the new global25 but it's been long enough and nothing seems to be changing so here we are.


I also did some other calculating and noticed the South-Arabian in both Somalis and Tigrinyas is ~80% Jawf but this goes down to ~60% in Oromos who have more Mehri-like ancestry. Kinda interesting considering this sample-set probably includes Oromos whose ancestors lived close to where South-Erythraeic speakers used to live before they began leaving the Horn, a connection you've highlighted in the past by pointing out how some Oromos even turn up with E-M293. But lol, this is fuckin' weird. Somalis looking like they have more of later admixture than Oromos... But it's probably because the Oromo set is a mix of Boranas, West-Central Oromos and the like. I bet it's just Oromos living near the SNNP area or perhaps the Boranas causing this Mehri shift and that the more Habesha-like Oromo samples are just as Jawf shifted as the Tigrinya.



I actually find it pretty interesting that Horners are showing a decent amount of Iberomaursian. Even modern Maghrebis only show around 30% IIRC, so that is quite impressive considering how far away the Horn is, and increased SSA. Considering the lack of a Paleolithic Nile Valley reference, the Iberomaurusian should be considered a minimum estimate for Epipaleolithic North African ancestry, although it may not change much since Iberomaurusians might be mainly descended from Nile Valley immigrants. And we need to account for the presence of minor Iberomaurusian-like ancestry in the Levant since at least the Natufian, so Holocene Levantine back-migrants spread some Iberomaurusian-like ancestry too.

Yeah, I modeled Natufians and while the fit isn't good, they look to have a fair amount of Iberomaurusian-like ancestry:

distance%=14.2612

Natufian

Tepecik-Ciftlik-N 65.4
Iberomaurusian 34.6

(I threw in all of the Neolithic Anatolian groups here, Tepecik just seems preferred)

So yeah, I'd say you're correct and a fair amount of the Iberomaurusian in Horners is probably from Natufian/Levant-N types or even straight Iberomaurusian-like types from Epipaleolithic and Neolithic Egypt rather than actual Ancient-Northwest-Africans (ANWAs)


These Yemen groups are interesting but I'm not familiar with their genetic affinities, could you please offer some basal runs for them so we can see what their basal makeup (both in Eurasian and African ancestry) is like? Also makes it easier to see if Horner preferences for different Yemeni groups are a proxy for something else, since I doubt even the G25 is able to pick up on recent regional drift in Yemen. And not only is the Eurasian component in the Horn split between the ancient groups from Eurasia we now know, but the African ancestry in Yemen, including recent African ancestry, is from different African groups. The differences in Yemen of both Eurasian and African ancestry, even when minor, should form regional patterns. These minor differences could lead to overfitting when modeling Horners. As a wild speculative example, imagine a slightly higher Rift Valley HG component in the Ma'rib Yemenis causing Luxmanda to show some preference for them. But certainly, it would be interesting to find out why Horners+Luxmanda have preferences for different Yemeni groups.


Good thinking, 7awey. I'm amazed this never hit me, to be honest. So I did some basal runs for the three Yemeni groups and noticed the Ma'ribis seemingly do have a very minor extra African shift of some sort:


distance%=11.3814

Jawf-Yemeni

Anatolian-Neolithic 64.4
Iran-Neolithic 18.2
Iberomaurusian 17.4

distance%=10.7916

Ma'rib-Yemeni

Anatolian-Neolithic 64
Iran-Neolithic 18.4
Iberomaurusian 17.4
Mota 0.2

distance%=12.4684

Mahra-Yemeni

Anatolian-Neolithic 64.2
Iberomaurusian 18.6
Iran-Neolithic 17.2

----

distance%=4.6216

Jawf-Yemeni

Natufian 60.4
Iran-Chalcolithic 39.6

--

distance%=4.145

Ma'rib-Yemeni

Natufian 58.8
Iran-Chalcolithic 40.6
Kenyan-Bantu 0.6

--

distance%=4.7137

Mahra-Yemeni

Natufian 64
Iran-Chalcolithic 36

I'm assuming you're noticing the problem with using Iberomaurusians and Natufians... Unfortunately the ancient African and Basal ancestries in these groups has a way of massively deflating, if not totally eliminating, actual Sub-Saharan African admixture in modern samples. But it is intriguing that only Ma'ribis show a minor hint of something SE African Bantu in the one run and Mota in the other (I entered Dinkas, Mota, Kenyan-Bantus and South-African HGs (2000ybp) in both runs) while the Jawfis and Mehris do not. Anyway, good instincts. It might be this hint in the Ma'rib samples that's causing Luxmanda to favor them but that still doesn't quite explain why she has such a strong Mehri shift and an aversion toward Jawf even when Mota is present. But you have a bit of a point, imho, that all this time between her and Somalis (i.e. drift) might be causing the discrepancy but it is still intriguing that the Yemeni in Somalis appears more like what's in Habeshas. I'll get David to throw my Copt samples in soon and see what that yields since I haven't run Copts with G25. Would be VERY interesting is if Luxmanda (and maybe even Somalis) suddenly favor Copts.


Haha it's nice to get more support of my belief in the pre-Hyksos presence of West Asian in Egypt, but I'm relatively confident of that regardless of when the first CHG/Iran-related ancestry arrived in the Horn (which even if it were to predate D'mt, could still have arrived from Arabia). But yeah, West Asian in Luxmanda would be fascinating, for it to have reached as far as 3000 BP South Cushites, it would almost have to be present in the first pastoral Afroasiatic migrants into the Horn?

I think that could very well be the case, yes. The Proto-East-South-Agaw speaking community might've seriously carried this ancestry if Luxmanda really does have it which is crazy to think about because those chaps entered the Horn around 5,000-7,000ybp if I recall correctly and the admixture was probably incurred a fair few years and/or centuries before that in the Sudan-Egypt area so that points to Iran-Neolithic ancestry carriers being in the Nile-Valley quite a damn long time ago, predating even Proto-Semitic.



Ah, that's quite a bit of Iberomaurusian for Natufians in the nMonte model as well.

BTW those Tepecik have a minor CHG/Iran shift IIRC, so it's a bit odd that Natufians prefer them to other Anatolians. Then again, it's a pretty bad model. Too bad David doesn't have access to Dzudzuana yet...

My thoughts exactly, these models would be a lot more intriguing if we had Dzudzuana and could model everyone as a mix between them, Iberomaurusian and Iran-Neolithic.


Looool the Ma'rib actually ended up with more SE African, I considered that a possibility but wasn't expecting it to be that simple haha.

What I meant was Somalis may very well show something more recent lacking in Luxmanda, but I don't think we can say anything conclusive about that with the data available, since they still seem surprisingly similar. That's the main takeaway for me, that Luxmanda and Somalis are strikingly similar except for the HG admixture in the former. The Yemeni patterns, while interesting, it's hard to know what it really represents for now as the Ma'rib example shows.


I had a feeling you were right about the Ma'rib samples, tbh. :lol: But yeah, I agree that no real conclusions can be made with what we currently have, hence my own bringing up of how suspicious the similarity of admixture levels is between Luxmanda and Somalis. Hell, even the amount of Iran-Neolithic ancestry (2%) is virtually the same. Too coincidental if different events caused each admixture, imho.


It doesn't seem plausible that it was in Egypt that early, considering when it supposedly arrived in the Levant (that's why I don't believe there was any West Asian in Egypt until 3500 BC or so with the onset of the Bronze Age). So in that case I guess it would need to have arrived in proto-Cushites in tiny amounts via Arabia, if there were CHG-influenced pops across the strait? Highly speculative though, it may all just end up as noise or meaningless levels, actually that seems more likely if I were to make a guess.

Rofl, fuck me! How could I forget something as simple as LNFs lacking CHG/Iran-N-related elements. I've been out of the game too long, 7awey. :lol: But yeah, you're right... I think Arabia being the source makes more sense. What's also interesting is that Passa used to tell me that the T-M70 in the Horn seems more tied to Arabian clades whereas Egyptian clades are actually more tied to what's found in the Levant. Passa basically believed the T in Horners came from Arabia and not the Nile Valley. I never gave it that much thought given that I disagree with some of his other leanings but he did prove his point by showing me that the clades seemingly are mostly shared with Arabians, from what I recall. Maybe T-M70 is a mark of our ancestors intermixing with folks from across the strait not long after they entered the Horn?



Who knows, Horner T could be linked to Arabia, that seems just as likely to me. Of course a small minority of Arabian Y-DNA is also of recent African origin, and Arabians are also much more likely to get tested.

Good point regarding the Arabian testing. So I decided to take a second look and it seems like the specific clade (https://yfull.com/tree/T-Y16897/) the Somali T belongs to is mostly dominated by both Meds and Arabians rather than just Arabians and there's a subclade (T-Y45591) directly shared with Saudi and I bet your guess about recent African clades among Arabians would explain this one in particular. Anyway, T-Y16897, of which T-Y45591 is a subclade, is a subclade of T-L208 and I do see what Passa means; it's very dominated by Arabian samples but this might be an issue with how sampled they are compared to Egyptians and the other MENA-Med populations that appear under this subclade as well.


Well for one they heavily intermarry with the Borana and their language is heavily influenced by Oromo.Their language is completely unintelligible with those who speak Northern standard Somali.

Love your profile pic, by the way. :lol:

VytautusofAukstaitija
08-06-2019, 02:17 AM
Well for one they heavily intermarry with the Borana and their language is heavily influenced by Oromo.Their language is completely unintelligible with those who speak Northern standard Somali.

The reason that Garre is not intelligible to Somali is that it is a entirely different language. The Garre were a non-Somali ethnic group only recently, and many Garre still see themselves as belonging to a Garre ethnicity. The same thing has happened probabaly to the majority of the Rahanweyn, whose substrate is clearly pre-Somali languages who belonged to the same immediate language family as Somali - the Samaalic language family. The Garre broke off form the Somali before 2,300-4,000 years ago.

Garre and Gabra likely form a ethno-linguistic clade, and so do Rendille and Sakuye. Tunni and Dabarre also form a clade. Jiddu and Somali both have their own clades - as of now.

The ancestral Samaal nomads lived somewhere in the Somali territories some 4,000 years ago, and we see camel bones in northern Kenya dated around 5,000-4,000 years ago in El Bor, so some likely Samaalic speaking group had made into Kenya just around the time the South Erythreans were migrating deeper into Southeast Africa. As such, a Samaalic urheimat in the southerly Somali and Samaalic inhabited territories is plausible, especially as the diversity of the Samaalic languages is concentrated south of the Shabelle and Lake Turkana, and the Tana river delta, and NW into the Libin. But you would expect residual South Erythrean influence in Samaalic groups, which hasn't been uncovered yet.

Moos
08-08-2019, 11:09 AM
The Garre dialect which is erroneously labelled as Af Garre is actually a dialect of Af Booraan spoken by Garre Somalis in Kenya and Ethiopia border areas.

When the Boran advanced into Northern Kenya and the Somali areas, many dialects and peoples were lost to Afaan Oromo Boraan language.

The original Garre dialect still spoken by Garre speakers in Southern Somalia villages is called Af Mahaw-it’s a Somali dialect.

Others Garres in Somalia have adopted Af Tunni, Maay and so forth. You can even find Garre remnants in the Bajuni clan confederate.

Garres, Ajuuraan, Sakuye, Gabbra And a few sections Rendille are all old Somali clans by lineage.

Moos aka the Suugo scientist.

VytautusofAukstaitija
08-09-2019, 04:27 AM
The Garre dialect which is erroneously labelled as Af Garre is actually a dialect of Af Booraan spoken by Garre Somalis in Kenya and Ethiopia border areas.

When the Boran advanced into Northern Kenya and the Somali areas, many dialects and peoples were lost to Afaan Oromo Boraan language.

The original Garre dialect still spoken by Garre speakers in Southern Somalia villages is called Af Mahaw-it’s a Somali dialect.

Others Garres in Somalia have adopted Af Tunni, Maay and so forth. You can even find Garre remnants in the Bajuni clan confederate.

Garres, Ajuuraan, Sakuye, Gabbra And a few sections Rendille are all old Somali clans by lineage.

Moos aka the Suugo scientist.

Af Garre can refer to either a Boran Oromo dialect, or a Samaal language. Af Gabra also similarly refers to two different things, a Boran Oromo dialect and a Samaal language. The Garre-Gabra adopted a Boran dialect because of Oromo vassalage and military preeminence beginning the late 1400's. The Gabra were reduced to accepting social and political inferiority to the cattle herding Boran conquerors, and their clans were attached to different Boran clans and lineages. The Garre largely escaped this, but as some westerly Garre groups living on the frontiers of Boran control became more intertwined with the Boran either through economics with the rise of prominent Garre trading families and the establishment of Garre outposts in the Boran domain, or necessity - such as access to water wells and sheltering from drought. After a few hundred years of such intensive interaction between a more populous and expansionist entity as represented by the Boran dominion, as several generations of frontier Garre were born and grew up in these conditions the majority of the westerly Garre camel pastoralists began to natively speak the Boran dialect of Oromo, and some of these Garre came to be subjugated by the expanding Boran dominion like the Gabra. In the Gabra, linguistic assimilation was far more thorough than the westerly Garre, and the language is for all intents, dead.

None of those Samaal people you mentioned are offshoots of the Somali. They descend from a common ancestral population of proto-Samaal nomads who had a pastoralist camel culture around 3,500 - 4,000 years ago, initially at least somewhere in the Somali and other Samaal territories. Do the Arabs come from the Mehri? the Indo-Aryans from the Greeks? The Samaal peoples are all sibling peoples, they are not nor were they ever children or offshoots of the Somali. To state and/or believe Somalis are ancestral to other Samaal peoples is to be spurred either by ignorance or a bias towards Somalis, and countering all logic and evidence that is known as of current.

The Rendille, Gabra, Sakuye, and Garre never historically claimed any ancestry from Somalis and were completely unfamiliar with them upon first contact discounting the Garre-Gabra. But they recognized instantly some ancestral kinship between themselves and the incoming Somalis, despite the former being Waaqists and the latter heavily Arabized and Muslim. The Somalis saw this too, and the Boran Oromo considered all Samaal ethnic groups to belong to their own seperate pan-ethnicity. No one ever saw it as a parent sibling relationship, as the Rendille and Sakuye only knew they and their ancestors lived in northern Kenya for as long as they could remember, whereas the Somalis only drove south from the Gulf of Aden/Berbera in the last 1000 years. It was only due to conversion to Islam and Somali nationalism and unionism in northern Kenya amongst non-Somali ethnicities that many Gabra and Rendille began to claim Somali ancestors and change the character of the close pan-ethnic kinship these Samaal people shared and held to be of importance.

The Sakuye and Rendille broke off in the last 2 millenia, they form a ethnolinguistic clade to the exclusion of Somali - and as such are equally related to the Somali. The Ajuran are a regular northern Somali clan, and the Garre are a partially assimilated ethnic group who do indeed have lineages/clans with Somali founders, most famously the Quranyow clan which claims descent from a Somali leader from the Dir. Maay is a Somali dialect that has a non-Somali substrate, indicating that non-Somali speakers shifted to speaking the Somali language. Just a brief look at the counting systems in Maay betray it's abundance of non-Somali roots, as it's looks to be a near carbon copy of the Tunni counting system. It's peculiar (to Somali) lexicon and speech patterns is tied to a heavy transfer of vocab and lingual interference of at least 2 non-Somali Samaal languages into the Somali language, most notably Tunni.

Moos
08-20-2019, 09:50 PM
^^There is clan of Somali origin by the name of Odoola in the Rendille. They are originally said to be Garres and the Rendille acknowledge this in their neatly persevered genealogical system.Adoola is still a clan within the Garres and they are found in Gabra too.

The rest of Rendille seem to be a relic of the most-western part of the former Samaalic nomads. As you will know there are various traditions of them being lost Samaalic people aka Reerdiid. Many Somalis believe this term means the tribe who rejected Islam, however it actually refers to Rendille not migrating or fleeing from the Borana advance and thus being cut off from their brethren.

According to Sakuye oral history, Rendille are related to Southern Somali people.There is little evidence, though it is indeed interesting so many separate groups in Southern Ethiopia and Northern claim Rendille. Even the Ajuuraan Claim the Saale of Rendille are their relatives. Aside from the genealogical claims, there still exist cultural norms and customs shared between these groups, as collected by Schlee et al, which would suggest the Rendille probably broke off from other southern Samaalic people somewhat later than you suggested. The word for age grade in Rendille is Qollo-it wouldn’t be a stretch to imagine these age grades becoming larger qabils....Some Linguistic and cultural evidence suggests the Rendille may have partially been islamised in the past. If they were, it would lend credit to the other groups who claim as such.


Gabra is not a really tribal ethnic group per se; it comes from the Oromo word for client or those who were conquered by Borana politically and socially. Gabra consist of 2 groups: 1. Garre and 2. Rendille.

Similarly, the Sakuye also consist of two different groups, a group who
broke off from Rendille and a group of Garre migrants who are today known as Sakuye Miigo. It is remarkable how these groups have maintained their Somali lineages after many centuries of domination by the Borana and many even losing their language.

Lastly, you must be familar with the Madanle people folklore? They seem like an interesting group who could have been another Samaalic set of dialect speakers or even the pre inhabitants of Northern
Kenya and Southern Somalia. It is said they were lighter and taller than the current folk and were wiped out by a coalition of Jiddu,Dabarre, etc.....

Thanks for your insight btw.