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Prunj7
12-22-2018, 02:05 AM
Hello all :)

My ancestors from at least around 1800s, where all born and native to Bosnia and Montenegro.

My GEDMatch gave me these results:

Eurogenes K13


Population
Percent


Baltic
34.17


North_Atlantic
26.31


East_Med
15.02


West_Med
13.81


West_Asian
08.00



Dodecad K12b


Population
Percent


North_European
44.69


Atlantic_Med
26.20


Caucasus
19.73


Gedrosia
03.86


Southwest_Asian
03.85



I apparently match pretty well in between Croatian and Serbian, if you compare those numbers to their average numbers on GEDmatch.

Now I found that my Haplogroup is most likely to be R1b-M405

I don't know much about it, except a few google searches that says it's mainly found in Western Europe around England, Netherlands and Germany and is a "Germanic/AngloSaxon" haplogroup.

I was expecting a more Eastern/Slavic haplogroup or some local Balkan one.

Any theories or ideas how I fit into this?

spruithean
12-22-2018, 02:53 AM
Well, there could be a number of possibilities...

Your Y-DNA could have arrived in the area with any number of Germanic groups passing through the area throughout the Roman Period and the Migration Period, be them Ostrogoths, Visigoths, etc. Or perhaps Varangian guards of Germanic origin (most where of Scandinavian or Anglo-Saxon origin), or perhaps some adventurous Normans fighting against the Byzantine Empire.

Or perhaps a later settlement or migration (not full-scale) of Germans into the area, such as Danube Swabian groups?

Or an NPE (non-paternal event) at some point, which again could be a combination of any of the previously mentioned possibilities.

I understand the surprise you have with your Y-DNA. I fully expected to belong to Haplogroup R1b considering where my patrilineal line is from, but surprise I belong to Haplogroup I1a.

Bollox79
12-22-2018, 06:01 AM
Hello all :)

My ancestors from at least around 1800s, where all born and native to Bosnia and Montenegro.

My GEDMatch gave me these results:

Eurogenes K13


Population
Percent


Baltic
34.17


North_Atlantic
26.31


East_Med
15.02


West_Med
13.81


West_Asian
08.00



Dodecad K12b


Population
Percent


North_European
44.69


Atlantic_Med
26.20


Caucasus
19.73


Gedrosia
03.86


Southwest_Asian
03.85



I apparently match pretty well in between Croatian and Serbian, if you compare those numbers to their average numbers on GEDmatch.

Now I found that my Haplogroup is most likely to be R1b-M405

I don't know much about it, except a few google searches that says it's mainly found in Western Europe around England, Netherlands and Germany and is a "Germanic/AngloSaxon" haplogroup.

I was expecting a more Eastern/Slavic haplogroup or some local Balkan one.

Any theories or ideas how I fit into this?

Who did you test with? Make sure you join the R1b-U106 yahoo forum here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/info

If you test with FTDNA you can join the U106 DNA project here: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/u106/about/background

I know of one family that is in my sub group of U106 called Z156 and their paternal line is from Bosnia Herzegovina I believe - here is a link to my list of current Ancient DNA samples that are positive for R1b-U106 (and sub groups where we could find the positive calls in the results): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6ZFaJe9gUtwl2r2Iu33B5_kCc6er5n9oEthCe25wV0/edit?usp=sharing

So far U106 is quite common (the most common haplogroup to date overall) so far in Germanic Migration period burials - from Longobard cemeteries of Szolad/Collegno, Baiuvarii burial sites around Munich, and the Alamanni burial site of Niedertotzingen.

Cheers,
Charlie

Prunj7
12-22-2018, 10:36 AM
I used the MyHeritage DNA test, and downloaded the raw data. Then I uploaded it to MorleyDNA, apparently it should give me a fairly good estimation of my haplogroup. As it said it worked with MyHeritage data, and found no errors in my data.

However, I wanted to ask here as I didn't quite understand the results and maybe they where wrong.

I plan on taking an actual haplogroup test, but I don't quite know where or how. Anyone know good companies that offer to find your haplogroup?
Even though I got the haplogroup here, it might be correct but maybe I will get something more precise if I take a haplogroup test. Maybe I will go deeper into some sub-group.

Thanks for the help and info guys, you're great :)

Prunj7
12-22-2018, 11:11 AM
Well, there could be a number of possibilities...

Your Y-DNA could have arrived in the area with any number of Germanic groups passing through the area throughout the Roman Period and the Migration Period, be them Ostrogoths, Visigoths, etc. Or perhaps Varangian guards of Germanic origin (most where of Scandinavian or Anglo-Saxon origin), or perhaps some adventurous Normans fighting against the Byzantine Empire.

Or perhaps a later settlement or migration (not full-scale) of Germans into the area, such as Danube Swabian groups?

Or an NPE (non-paternal event) at some point, which again could be a combination of any of the previously mentioned possibilities.

I understand the surprise you have with your Y-DNA. I fully expected to belong to Haplogroup R1b considering where my patrilineal line is from, but surprise I belong to Haplogroup I1a.

Hmm, I probably can never be sure of this. And it's just a small wishfull thinking or theory on my part lol.

But looking at my Oracle results. The people I share the most with are
1: Moldavians
2: Croatian
3: Serbian
4: Hungarian
5: Romanian
6: Ukrainian_Lviv

Dosn't that kind of correlate a lot with where the Ostrogoths spent the majority of their time during the migration period and dark ages?
Though I can never be sure, and I am probably overlooking stuff.

oz
12-22-2018, 11:27 AM
I used the MyHeritage DNA test, and downloaded the raw data. Then I uploaded it to MorleyDNA, apparently it should give me a fairly good estimation of my haplogroup. As it said it worked with MyHeritage data, and found no errors in my data.

However, I wanted to ask here as I didn't quite understand the results and maybe they where wrong.

I plan on taking an actual haplogroup test, but I don't quite know where or how. Anyone know good companies that offer to find your haplogroup?
Even though I got the haplogroup here, it might be correct but maybe I will get something more precise if I take a haplogroup test. Maybe I will go deeper into some sub-group.

Thanks for the help and info guys, you're great :)

I'd do Ftdna, they're the best for uniparental tests. Maybe you even pay cheaper if it's still on holiday sale. They have prices and tests ranging in the amount of Snps that they test. Less snps means cheaper, more or deeper subclades more expensive. And they provide you with your ydna matches.

Or you could do 23andme regular ancestry test and they provide you with haplogroup results as well. Don't know how accurate they are but at least they were right in predicting mine is under I-Z63 (Y6228). I ordered a I1 snp-pack test as well from Ftdna about 5 days ago, hopefully i get the kit soon.

If you are under R1b-U106 there's a good chance your ancestor was similar to mine. My hg is also more common and traces back to the Germanic world. If you don't know of any recent Germanic ancestry it probably goes back to the early middle ages, most likely with some kind of Goths, or perhaps Lombards but I don't know if they ever settled in the west Balkans. Could be Viking/Norman too.

Prunj7
12-22-2018, 12:01 PM
I'd do Ftdna, they're the best for uniparental tests. Maybe you even pay cheaper if it's still on holiday sale. They have prices and tests ranging in the amount of Snps that they test. Less snps means cheaper, more or deeper subclades more expensive. And they provide you with your ydna matches.

Or you could do 23andme regular ancestry test and they provide you with haplogroup results as well. Don't know how accurate they are but at least they were right in predicting mine is under I-Z63 (Y6228). I ordered a I1 snp-pack test as well from Ftdna about 5 days ago, hopefully i get the kit soon.

If you are under R1b-U106 there's a good chance your ancestor was similar to mine. My hg is also more common and traces back to the Germanic world. If you don't know of any recent Germanic ancestry it probably goes back to the early middle ages, most likely with some kind of Goths, or perhaps Lombards but I don't know if they ever settled in the west Balkans. Could be Viking/Norman too.

Thank you for the recommendation, I will look into that company :) I was planing to do a 23andme test as well, but money is a bit of an issue at the time so I will have to wait.

I am not aware of any German ancestry, my family tree is pure Yugoslav for at least past 200 years. Even during the Austrian control of Bosnia, no family was actually ethnic Austrian to my knowledge.
All I know about the Goths is that the Visigoths where roaming around present day Yugoslavia, before going to Iberia. Ostrogoths settled around modern day Ukraine, Romania, Moldova but later migrated through Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and established a kingdom that covered Italy and parts of Yugoslavia. Lombards later also established control of Italy and parts of modern day Yugoslavia.

My population sharing results from GEDmatch, really fits well with where the Goths had settled. Since I seem to be more related to Moldavians, Romanians, Hungarians than say Austrians, Dutch, Germans. But my Haplogroup is more common around the Netherlands, than Sweden where the Goths originally originated.

Thanks again for the help, anything for me helps and im very interested in this stuff now :)

oz
12-22-2018, 12:32 PM
Thank you for the recommendation, I will look into that company :) I was planing to do a 23andme test as well, but money is a bit of an issue at the time so I will have to wait.

I am not aware of any German ancestry, my family tree is pure Yugoslav for at least past 200 years. Even during the Austrian control of Bosnia, no family was actually ethnic Austrian to my knowledge.
All I know about the Goths is that the Visigoths where roaming around present day Yugoslavia, before going to Iberia. Ostrogoths settled around modern day Ukraine, Romania, Moldova but later migrated through Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and established a kingdom that covered Italy and parts of Yugoslavia. Lombards later also established control of Italy and parts of modern day Yugoslavia.

My population sharing results from GEDmatch, really fits well with where the Goths had settled. Since I seem to be more related to Moldavians, Romanians, Hungarians than say Austrians, Dutch, Germans. But my Haplogroup is more common around the Netherlands, than Sweden where the Goths originally originated.

Thanks again for the help, anything for me helps and im very interested in this stuff now :)

No problem. Again look into Ftdna if you're REALLY interested in tracing your Y line. You could do 23andme if you also want a good autosomal report but not as much y dna information. if you're on a budget then just go with what is more important to you of the options i just explained. The 23andme report is cheaper compared with Ftdna's deeper markers tests. But I'm no expert on these things, i don't know how deep of a subclade you will get if you do a certain amount of markers and stuff. So far i only did the cheapest ftdna Y12 test and all i got is that I'm I-M253 or I1. With this snp pack thing i'm hoping they will check for deeper more recent markers than Y6228 and at the same time to get confirmation if 23andme was correct.

As far as the autosomal make up that's not really gonna help much in tracing your ydna ancestor as most Bosnians including me are closer to Moldavian and East Europe/Balkans than Northwest European populations. Thus your Ydna has little or nothing to do with your autosomal dna.

Wing Genealogist
12-22-2018, 02:21 PM
I do believe your M405 (U106) result from a MorleyDNA analysis of your MyHeritage DNA results is accurate. I would be shocked and dismayed if it turns out to be wrong.


The best advice I can give is to have further Y-DNA testing done and be patient (wait for further DNA results for this region). As others have stated, FTDNA leads the way in terms of Y-DNA testing, but there are other options such as the R1b-U106 Superclade Panel offered by YSEQ https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=18643. There are also other options for Next Generation Sequence/Whole Genome Sequence (NGS/WGS) testing offered by other companies, but they tend to be quite expensive.

Wing Genealogist
12-22-2018, 02:24 PM
We are still really in the very early days of understanding the various migrations into and through Europe throughout history. DNA testing (both living individuals as well as ancient remains) is leading the way in this discovery process.

We still don't have anywhere near enough ancient remains for most of Europe to piece together the early history. We don't even have enough people living today from many areas of Europe, such as the Slavic nations, to really hazard a guess.

As I see it, the key to Y-DNA testing is to see how far you match other individuals (and ancient remains). As such, recruiting other folks from your region to do Y-DNA testing would also help the whole community, as well as you personally.

JerryS.
12-22-2018, 02:28 PM
somewhere upstream your father's father's father et cetera......was German.

Prunj7
12-22-2018, 05:13 PM
Thank you very much, I will definantly look into it some more. My father plans to do a 23andMe test in the near future, I will too in the future. But for now, the MyHeritage test will have to do. Im going to get a Ftdna test as soon as possible.

From my understanding, both my dad, brother and I should have the same haplogroup though? Since it's from the Y Chromosome. So we should all 3 be M405(U106) correct?

I wonder if it might have anything to do with the Lombards, since they where around North Western Balkans for some time and they are U106 I believe? The Goths made sence to me, but they aren't really U106 as far as I know, but something With I1?

I don't really know how all this work all that well, might not be anything to do with these two tribes. Just that I know of no other Germanic tribe from around North West Europe (the haplogroup) that went to the Balkans. But then again, maybe some German from Saxony moved to Bosnia 300 years ago lol *shrug*

Wing Genealogist
12-22-2018, 06:28 PM
You are correct your dad, brother, and yourself would have the same haplogroup.

It is an advantage to have close relatives (such as parent-child or even siblings) take an autosomal test such as MyHeritage or 23andMe. But it would basically be wasting your money to have close relatives take Y-DNA tests (or mtDNA tests for that matter).

While U106 has been called a "Germanic Haplogroup" the estimated age of U106 is roughly 5,000 years ago (3,000 BCE) and this is roughly 1,000 years older than what wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples calls the origin of the Germanic tribes.

We currently only have two U106+ ancient DNA results which date back to roughly 2,000 BCE. One is from the Southern tip of what is now Sweden, and the other from the Únětice culture in what is now Croatia. Given this, it is possible your U106 ancestry may have been a native to the area where you was born. We simply need more information in order to make the picture clearer.

Bollox79
12-22-2018, 11:05 PM
Thank you very much, I will definantly look into it some more. My father plans to do a 23andMe test in the near future, I will too in the future. But for now, the MyHeritage test will have to do. Im going to get a Ftdna test as soon as possible.

From my understanding, both my dad, brother and I should have the same haplogroup though? Since it's from the Y Chromosome. So we should all 3 be M405(U106) correct?

I wonder if it might have anything to do with the Lombards, since they where around North Western Balkans for some time and they are U106 I believe? The Goths made sence to me, but they aren't really U106 as far as I know, but something With I1?

I don't really know how all this work all that well, might not be anything to do with these two tribes. Just that I know of no other Germanic tribe from around North West Europe (the haplogroup) that went to the Balkans. But then again, maybe some German from Saxony moved to Bosnia 300 years ago lol *shrug*

Just as Wing Genealogist and Username etc have said...

You really need to have more testing (when you can manage it - I know it gets expensive!) so you know for sure you a) U106 and b) what sub group of U106 you are in. It may be that you are in a fairly filled out (plenty of modern testers so far) section, or you may be in a less populated part of a sub group. If you end up in a less populated part of the U106 tree - don't get discouraged - as more people from Europe get tested it's more likely someone will match you! It's a game of patience! Also there are certain sub groups that are more common (for now...) in Germanic Migration burials... my sub group of DF98 has yet to be found in a Germanic Migration burial, but we are associated with the House of Wettin (Saxon noble house) so I figure either it is only a "matter of time" or we were already in the region from the middle to late Bronze Age and into the Iron Age and got caught up with the Germanic movements. One piece of evidence is that we have already found DF98's brother group DF96 in a Baiuvarii sample from Altheim near Munich and one sample from Altenerding is positive for the SNP called Z305 which is just above (ancestral of) the DF96/DF98 split! Those Baiuvarii were Northern European in their autosomal so I predict they were from further North (even if they were "local" per their isotope analysis - they probably stayed homogeneous for the most part and still resembled modern Northern Europeans) and the "Baiuvarii" had a link with the Elbe per pottery, then Bohemia, and then later around the Roman forts such as Straubing (two U106ers found there) and later the burials around Munich. There is archeological evidence that could support that kind of "move" south over time. We really need more Middle to Late BA remains from Northern Europe (and in particular the area of the Bohemia Massif and Northern Germany) into the Iron Age to see where a particular sub group either was present or not in the territory yet... to figure out the migration pattern.

Eventually with enough modern testers from further East (say Germany and further East etc - we have a testing bias in the Isles and I have a feeling there are many more of us in Germany and possibly East of that - take for example my newest match in my smaller group of FGC14840 under DF98 - his paternal line is from an area controlled by the Teutonic Order and later became part of Prussia, then fairly recently it became part of Poland) and enough ancient DNA remains that are well tested we can start to connect all the "dots" of the migrations - or at least take a very good guess at the likely breakdown of certain groups. The fact that someone matched me from that area is particularly interesting to me because I just got done a few weeks back doing some serious research per ancestry on Weaver male lines from my area of Pennsylvania from the late 1700s/early 1800s - when I know my Weaver ancestor was born in the area of Dauphin county, PA which was really Upper District of Lancaster and was changed to Dauphin county in 1785. I know of more than one Weaver male line that has tested their Y-DNA of several descendants and I don't match them past U106 (so they are not in my DF98 sub group) and one line is Swiss and U152 under R1b. The interesting thing I noticed is that statistically my Weaver family is probably German (all except one perhaps is German - and the other is from further NE of PA and is from England and they are U106, but not DF98!) - and I have a Weaver male line from the right area in one of my autosomal matches (5th cousin range so could be the right generation) that hasn't tested Y-DNA yet that I know of... and their line is from Lower Saxony - also a Prussian line or two. I am taking the ancestry DNA test not for their ethnic background prediction. Instead I am taking it so I can see which family circles I match per DNA relation and look for Weaver male lines that haven't been tested yet in those DNA related family circles! Most importantly it seems the Weaver male lines that haven't tested yet and have family trees were either from Prussia or Lower Saxony - so a match from old Prussia is interesting! My newest match has agreed to take the Big Y so hopefully we match at some of my personal variants!

I keep a list of any ancient samples that are U106+ and sub groups where possible... check it out: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6ZFaJe9gUtwl2r2Iu33B5_kCc6er5n9oEthCe25wV0/edit?usp=sharing

At the top is a general summary of the remains, but scroll down below and I have what I could find on them per the archeology and general history of the site they were found at!

Edit: I meant to say in your case - it could be a more "recent" movement that brought your paternal line to that area, or it could be an ancient movement/migration. I could have been there since the Bronze Age! We do have a sample that is descended from a family with history from Bosnia and Herzegovina who according to their clan history - they are descended from a common ancestor of around the 1500s who swore to defend the area against the Ottomans. Their male line could be ancient to the area (the SNPs ancestral of my group DF98 for example - of which they are positive - the Z305/Z306 group if I remember correctly) was found in a Unetice burial at Jinonice near Prague (see my aDNA list for info) so they technically could have been in the area a very long time ago i.e. sometime during the Bronze Age. That is why we need many more late Bronze Age and Iron Age samples from Germany and further East - so we can see where certain groups were present in what time period etc!

Prunj7
12-23-2018, 12:09 PM
Wow very detailed information, and yes I will definantly test further.

For me personally, Im mostly interested in finding out more information about my ancestors. Who they might have been, where they lived or came from etc. I know I probably won't ever know the complete truth, but any information helps. I am not so much interested in finding lost family and such, I don't mind it ofcourse but it's not my main motivation.

I see what you mean, with not enough people have been tested or old burials. So sadly not enough data out there to study or compare with. I also feel like most scientist and historians, seem to focus on the US and North Western Europe (UK, Germany, France, Scandinavia) while the rest of Europe, especially the South East gets kind of ignored/forgotten.

Also very interesting document you have, glad you're keeping a list of those ancient samples. Thanks you for doing that, and giving me a link to it :)

oz
12-24-2018, 03:21 AM
Wow very detailed information, and yes I will definantly test further.

For me personally, Im mostly interested in finding out more information about my ancestors. Who they might have been, where they lived or came from etc. I know I probably won't ever know the complete truth, but any information helps. I am not so much interested in finding lost family and such, I don't mind it ofcourse but it's not my main motivation.

I see what you mean, with not enough people have been tested or old burials. So sadly not enough data out there to study or compare with. I also feel like most scientist and historians, seem to focus on the US and North Western Europe (UK, Germany, France, Scandinavia) while the rest of Europe, especially the South East gets kind of ignored/forgotten.

Also very interesting document you have, glad you're keeping a list of those ancient samples. Thanks you for doing that, and giving me a link to it :)

I get what you mean by not interested in finding "lost family". All these commercial companies give you these matches and label them as close as 3rd or 4th cousin and I'm like what the hell. And even if they are some lost relatives, I barely even talk to my 2nd cousins that I know of and live in the same city you know what I mean? So essentially to me it's kinda useless. Like I'm gonna go connect with these people and become friends with them or something because some Dna company says we share Dna, it's just awkward. Maybe i'm a pretty anti-social person but that's how i feel about that segment. I wanna know ancestry and try to hopefully understand the world better and history, and sort of find myself perhaps a little better. So far it's been kinda interesting but it also feels like this field of study is still like a diamond in the rough or something. And who knows if it's ever gonna become anything too meaningful or popular, it's kinda interesting nonetheless. And if it does hopefully we don't get some new wave of racism or fascism or any kind of 'ism from it you know? People can get a little carried away.

To sort of reiterate my earlier point, the way i see it for now as far as Y haplogroup interest goes... doing Ftdna and if you can afford to get deeper tests done later on so you can get more TMRCA matches (time to most recent common ancestor) is the best bet in figuring out where your y dna might've come from. Ancient Dna could help also but to lesser degree in my opinion considering how little studying of is being done especially relevant to more recent history. And generally when it comes to history narratives and interpretations, it's too "belief" based which leaves too much room for biased claims, not enough undeniable facts. The only way you can ever really be confident about something that happened a long time ago is to time travel and actually see it. Too bad we can't.

Sretno ti buraz.

Prunj7
12-24-2018, 10:29 AM
I get what you mean by not interested in finding "lost family". All these commercial companies give you these matches and label them as close as 3rd or 4th cousin and I'm like what the hell. And even if they are some lost relatives, I barely even talk to my 2nd cousins that I know of and live in the same city you know what I mean? So essentially to me it's kinda useless. Like I'm gonna go connect with these people and become friends with them or something because some Dna company says we share Dna, it's just awkward. Maybe i'm a pretty anti-social person but that's how i feel about that segment. I wanna know ancestry and try to hopefully understand the world better and history, and sort of find myself perhaps a little better. So far it's been kinda interesting but it also feels like this field of study is still like a diamond in the rough or something. And who knows if it's ever gonna become anything too meaningful or popular, it's kinda interesting nonetheless. And if it does hopefully we don't get some new wave of racism or fascism or any kind of 'ism from it you know? People can get a little carried away.

To sort of reiterate my earlier point, the way i see it for now as far as Y haplogroup interest goes... doing Ftdna and if you can afford to get deeper tests done later on so you can get more TMRCA matches (time to most recent common ancestor) is the best bet in figuring out where your y dna might've come from. Ancient Dna could help also but to lesser degree in my opinion considering how little studying of is being done especially relevant to more recent history. And generally when it comes to history narratives and interpretations, it's too "belief" based which leaves too much room for biased claims, not enough undeniable facts. The only way you can ever really be confident about something that happened a long time ago is to time travel and actually see it. Too bad we can't.

Sretno ti buraz.

Yea same feeling here exactly, I already feel like I have way to many cousins. I only really have the time and interest to speak with a few of them XD Though MyHeritage did find a cousin of mine somewhere in Sweden, with a huge shared DNA pool. So that was kind of interesting, especially because she stated her haplogroup and had apparently a big updated family tree. We are apparently really closely related, she has a Bosnian name and surname but I never heard of her. I must admit I am a bit curious about her, and maybe her family tree combined with mine would help us both find new interesting things. But yea, otherwise im more interested in my/our history, ancestry etc and not finding cousins.

Hvala, i tebi sretno i sve najbolje :)

Bollox79
12-24-2018, 01:16 PM
Yea same feeling here exactly, I already feel like I have way to many cousins. I only really have the time and interest to speak with a few of them XD Though MyHeritage did find a cousin of mine somewhere in Sweden, with a huge shared DNA pool. So that was kind of interesting, especially because she stated her haplogroup and had apparently a big updated family tree. We are apparently really closely related, she has a Bosnian name and surname but I never heard of her. I must admit I am a bit curious about her, and maybe her family tree combined with mine would help us both find new interesting things. But yea, otherwise im more interested in my/our history, ancestry etc and not finding cousins.

Hvala, i tebi sretno i sve najbolje :)

Some people like to connect to distant cousins and other don't really care - but that is up to the individual. For me I've mainly focused on the Y-DNA, but I also did the autosomal for overall ancestry for me since I was born in America and we tend to be mixed (though if you have family from certain areas it tends to be certain groups - say for instance Pennsylvania - especially Eastern PA - you will probably have some Pennsylvania Dutch (really German and Dutch) and Scots-Irish). I wanted to see how well it matched up - and overall it matched up very well.

Other than seeing how recent my ancestry was from Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany, Netherlands and the Baltics... I plan to use autosomal through ancestry dot com (best and largest database for family trees - but still have to contact people to discuss their research accuracy etc - I already did family finder at FTDNA - but the family trees are not always the best there as they didn't start out as a genealogy site!), but I am testing relatives of my father (we lost him in an accident at work - so that spurred me on to research his line in honor of him) to hopefully find our "Weaver male line" distant connection through family trees of autosomal relatives from our area of Pennsylvania. That is one "way" you can try to use autosomal and 2nd-5th cousin matches - if you are trying to triangulate a family line perhaps! I am having a hard time with records back past 1780s in PA with my Weaver line - it's probably German statistically speaking and probably from either the Baden Württemberg area or Hessen or Prussian based on the many German family trees I've read about and checked out from my area of PA! My newest match from what was once Prussia is more interesting because of that likelihood! He took a Big Y - now waiting for results!

Cheers!

When you can manage to test at FTDNA and if you are in fact U106 don't forget to join the U106 DNA project there!!!

dink
12-24-2018, 02:52 PM
Your subclade is Indo-European and exists all over Europe. Nothing odd. There are u106 members even at the Serbian Dna project

Prunj7
12-24-2018, 05:49 PM
Your subclade is Indo-European and exists all over Europe. Nothing odd. There are u106 members even at the Serbian Dna project

Yea, I don't really know to much about haplogroups etc, I am interested in it and learning more but my knowledge is very limited.

I just really googled what haplogroup the Slavs and South Slavs mainly have, and expected to get that. When i got u106 and googled it, google said it was mainly a Germanic haplogroup from around the Netherlands. So with my limited knowledge, I was obviously quite suprised hehe

ADW_1981
12-25-2018, 12:01 AM
Hmm, I probably can never be sure of this. And it's just a small wishfull thinking or theory on my part lol.

But looking at my Oracle results. The people I share the most with are
1: Moldavians
2: Croatian
3: Serbian
4: Hungarian
5: Romanian
6: Ukrainian_Lviv

Dosn't that kind of correlate a lot with where the Ostrogoths spent the majority of their time during the migration period and dark ages?
Though I can never be sure, and I am probably overlooking stuff.

Those results just suggest you autosomally resemble your surrounding populations, basically south Slavic ones. Your father's uniparental marker doesn't necessarily correspond to that. If you look at where R1b-M405 rich populations exist, you would see England, Netherlands, Germany, and Scandinavian countries being the most populous ones. This doesn't mean it won't popup anywhere else.

Prunj7
12-25-2018, 03:15 AM
Those results just suggest you autosomally resemble your surrounding populations, basically south Slavic ones. Your father's uniparental marker doesn't necessarily correspond to that. If you look at where R1b-M405 rich populations exist, you would see England, Netherlands, Germany, and Scandinavian countries being the most populous ones. This doesn't mean it won't popup anywhere else.

Well dosn't that kind of depend on why they the most R1b-M405 rich population? If it's because more studies have been done there, compared to Eastern Europe. Then it makes sence that there would be more of them there no?

But I think I see your point, so even if I am a M405. It probably dosn't have anything to do with the Germanic haplogroup/people/tribes etc? Since I autosomally resemble my surrounding populations and therefor it might be a local/Balkan/Slavic R1b-M405?

Sorry if these questions don't make sence, Im really quite new at all this :)

spruithean
12-25-2018, 03:31 AM
The Y-DNA haplogroup can enter a group by many mechanisms and R-M405 can be Germanic (it's found in many Migration Era ancient DNA studies and in Corded Ware Sweden).

For example my Y-DNA is also likely Germanic however the vast majority of my paternal ancestors on that line were Gaelic, however one single lineage that happens to be my patrilineal surname line is Germanic.

Prunj7
12-25-2018, 12:21 PM
The Y-DNA haplogroup can enter a group by many mechanisms and R-M405 can be Germanic (it's found in many Migration Era ancient DNA studies and in Corded Ware Sweden).

For example my Y-DNA is also likely Germanic however the vast majority of my paternal ancestors on that line were Gaelic, however one single lineage that happens to be my patrilineal surname line is Germanic.

Also, maybe the R1b-M405 in my line is very old? Like maybe it came from Germany long before the migrations around 3-600AD, and if my ancestors all settled in the Balkans and intermarried there. Wouldn't all the "Germanic" autosomal DNA slowly shrink? And the Balkan autosomal DNA and population matches grow. But since the M405 is from the Y chromosome, it hasn't really changed since.

My brother also had an autosomal test done, and got similair to me. However after Hungary, Croatia, Serbia, Moldavia he starts getting Austrian, South Dutch, West German, East German, South German matches. Where I get Bulgarian, Poland etc.. Obviously he might just be matching with Balkan people who live there, or maybe on my mom side she is more "Germanic" and my dad is mostly autosomally from the Balkans. I don't really know, but it's an idea I had.

I don't know that much about R1b-M405, what I've read is that it might have come to Europe from the Russian steppes, and moved to present day England, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark. And that there are some clusters around Italy, Hungary, Romania?

Bollox79
12-25-2018, 07:09 PM
Also, maybe the R1b-M405 in my line is very old? Like maybe it came from Germany long before the migrations around 3-600AD, and if my ancestors all settled in the Balkans and intermarried there. Wouldn't all the "Germanic" autosomal DNA slowly shrink? And the Balkan autosomal DNA and population matches grow. But since the M405 is from the Y chromosome, it hasn't really changed since.

My brother also had an autosomal test done, and got similair to me. However after Hungary, Croatia, Serbia, Moldavia he starts getting Austrian, South Dutch, West German, East German, South German matches. Where I get Bulgarian, Poland etc.. Obviously he might just be matching with Balkan people who live there, or maybe on my mom side she is more "Germanic" and my dad is mostly autosomally from the Balkans. I don't really know, but it's an idea I had.

I don't know that much about R1b-M405, what I've read is that it might have come to Europe from the Russian steppes, and moved to present day England, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark. And that there are some clusters around Italy, Hungary, Romania?

Yes autosomal usually only gets you back 5 or so maybe 6 generations (to about 5th cousins for most people) back into your family tree - whatever mixture of the 50% of each parent you got when you were born etc... will show up in the autosomal test so a sibling can be slightly different in that they come from the same genetic pool - but their 50% from each parent isn't 100% the same as what you got - if that makes sense?

Y-chromosome is great for tracing your male line back through time even into the Bronze Ages and before - it's really only a matter of a lack of modern samples and also ancient burials that we can't immediately give you a bunch of detail on your Y-DNA. If you test and get U106 and fall into a well populated sub group - BAM you have that much more info on your male line and you can statistically predict what the more likely migration patterns were based on ancient and modern samples. If you are in rare (as of yet tested people and ancient remains) then you will get less info - but at least you get tested and all you have to do is wait for more modern and ancient samples to test (I hear there are 100s if not 1000s of ancient samples in the testing pipeline to come out in papers in the next few years...) and when you match some more hopefully it will give you clues as to whether your line came from say Germany in the migration period, or was in the Balkans in the Bronze Age and just hung around there. If you are in a rare line that isn't that common in say Germany, but you match some people in the Balkans area and generally your matches with other U106ers (other than some from the Balkans and maybe some Bronze Age samples from the East) are very old... well then it would be much more likely that your U106 line has been in the area since the Bronze Age, but to know that you need more U106 samples from your area and also more Bronze Age samples that are U106 from that area!

If instead you get more testing and end up in a well populated group that shares a common ancestor with a migration burial - then much more likely you descend from Migration era Germanic tribesmen from the "culture" of the burial site if the site has enough burial context etc ;-)!

Edit: Figured I'd count up the U106+ samples that were associated with "Germanic" burial culture in my aDNA notes:
Szolad: I have 6 U106+ samples.

Collegno: Only CL84 was U106+, the others were L151, but based on the fact that CL84 is Kindred CL 1 with other very Northern European males and females - I'd say the other three males buried close to him (CL 92, 93, and 97) and CL 145 and 146 buried a bit NW of CL84 as as 2nd gen burials and based on their kindred status I'd say it's very likely that is 5 more U106+ samples plus CL 84 making 6! I still plan on asking Alex Williamson take a final look at those male kindred of CL 84 to see if he can find a U106 result.

Straubing, Altenerding, and Altheim around Munich: 5 U106+ samples

Niederstotzingen: 6 U106+ samples - and 5 of those 6 were very closely related similar to the Collegno kindred!

Poprad, Slovakia: one U106+ in a chamber grave

Scat
12-25-2018, 08:58 PM
Hello.
Haplogroup U106 is not really a German haplogroup. That is, it may be yes, and maybe not only. Germanic tribes were formed 2500-3700 years ago in the territories of Scandinavia, Jutland, the Baltic and Central Europe. TMRCA U106 about 4900 years ago and even the main subclades appeared earlier 4000 years ago. U106 are known in Central Asia, in the Volga region, and this is generally outside Europe. Neither the u106 nor its main subclade Z381 can yet be called German, as well as the subclades z156 and z301. That is, it has not yet been proved! Since there are Tatars z301, there are Mordovians z156 and even one kazakh z156. Of course, the haplogroup is really connected with the Germanic peoples and can only be proto-German. It may not be. This of course could have been German migrations, and the Lombards or Goths fit perfectly, I agree. But it can be both later, and I suspect earlier, maybe pre-German migration. Subclades u106 ancient time of the formation of the Germanic tribes, so what am I writing this
P.S.
I like to carefully study the resettlement map of u106 and noticed interesting pockets there long ago - for example, Tatars and Mordovians in the Volga region, or there is a concentration in the region of Kosovo and Montenegro. There are also separate concentrations south of Rome and in the north of Portugal. It may be interesting. And if you look at the z156 branches, then you can surround a Serbian man, moreover in the royal trunk of Df98, moreover in the royal branch of S18823

Finn
12-25-2018, 09:24 PM
Hello.
Haplogroup U106 is not really a German haplogroup. That is, it may be yes, and maybe not only. Germanic tribes were formed 2500-3700 years ago in the territories of Scandinavia, Jutland, the Baltic and Central Europe. TMRCA U106 about 4900 years ago and even the main subclades appeared earlier 4000 years ago. U106 are known in Central Asia, in the Volga region, and this is generally outside Europe. Neither the u106 nor its main subclade Z381 can yet be called German, as well as the subclades z156 and z301. That is, it has not yet been proved! Since there are Tatars z301, there are Mordovians z156 and even one kazakh z156. Of course, the haplogroup is really connected with the Germanic peoples and can only be proto-German. It may not be. This of course could have been German migrations, and the Lombards or Goths fit perfectly, I agree. But it can be both later, and I suspect earlier, maybe pre-German migration. Subclades u106 ancient time of the formation of the Germanic tribes, so what am I writing this
P.S.
I like to carefully study the resettlement map of u106 and noticed interesting pockets there long ago - for example, Tatars and Mordovians in the Volga region, or there is a concentration in the region of Kosovo and Montenegro. There are also separate concentrations south of Rome and in the north of Portugal. It may be interesting. And if you look at the z156 branches, then you can surround a Serbian man, moreover in the royal trunk of Df98, moreover in the royal branch of S18823

Even stronger German is a Roman label. It’s not a coherent kind of people. Also not in genetic sense.The spread of R1B U106 started in Central and Northwest Europe already in LN/EBA. So R1b U106 occurs certainly mostly among the (West-) Germanic people, but it’s not unique for them.....

Tz85
12-26-2018, 01:53 AM
Hello all :)

My ancestors from at least around 1800s, where all born and native to Bosnia and Montenegro.

My GEDMatch gave me these results:

Eurogenes K13


Population
Percent


Baltic
34.17


North_Atlantic
26.31


East_Med
15.02


West_Med
13.81


West_Asian
08.00



Dodecad K12b


Population
Percent


North_European
44.69


Atlantic_Med
26.20


Caucasus
19.73


Gedrosia
03.86


Southwest_Asian
03.85



I apparently match pretty well in between Croatian and Serbian, if you compare those numbers to their average numbers on GEDmatch.

Now I found that my Haplogroup is most likely to be R1b-M405

I don't know much about it, except a few google searches that says it's mainly found in Western Europe around England, Netherlands and Germany and is a "Germanic/AngloSaxon" haplogroup.

I was expecting a more Eastern/Slavic haplogroup or some local Balkan one.

Any theories or ideas how I fit into this?

You realize that your Ydna has literally nothing to do with Autosomal dna, and "Bosnia" didn't even exist at the time of your haplogroup?

Bollox79
12-26-2018, 02:11 AM
Hello.
Haplogroup U106 is not really a German haplogroup. That is, it may be yes, and maybe not only. Germanic tribes were formed 2500-3700 years ago in the territories of Scandinavia, Jutland, the Baltic and Central Europe. TMRCA U106 about 4900 years ago and even the main subclades appeared earlier 4000 years ago. U106 are known in Central Asia, in the Volga region, and this is generally outside Europe. Neither the u106 nor its main subclade Z381 can yet be called German, as well as the subclades z156 and z301. That is, it has not yet been proved! Since there are Tatars z301, there are Mordovians z156 and even one kazakh z156. Of course, the haplogroup is really connected with the Germanic peoples and can only be proto-German. It may not be. This of course could have been German migrations, and the Lombards or Goths fit perfectly, I agree. But it can be both later, and I suspect earlier, maybe pre-German migration. Subclades u106 ancient time of the formation of the Germanic tribes, so what am I writing this
P.S.
I like to carefully study the resettlement map of u106 and noticed interesting pockets there long ago - for example, Tatars and Mordovians in the Volga region, or there is a concentration in the region of Kosovo and Montenegro. There are also separate concentrations south of Rome and in the north of Portugal. It may be interesting. And if you look at the z156 branches, then you can surround a Serbian man, moreover in the royal trunk of Df98, moreover in the royal branch of S18823

What branches of Z156 are the Mordovians and that Kazakh? Just curious as to what part of Z156 they belong.

As far as U106 being them most common male haplogroup among Germanic migration remains - if you take Longobard burial sites Szolad and Collegno, Baiuvarii around Munich and the Alamanni site at Niederstotzingen - U106 is currently the most common among those sites... though I2a2a gives it a run for it's money at Szolad... but none of that at Collegno. That's the story so far.. could change of course! It certainly played a large part in those burial sites... but I am still waiting for DF98 to turn up in Germanic migration remains - if I had to guess I might guess Saxon or Swabian (based on on the possibilities for the progenitors of the Wettins etc).

Also what do you mean about the Z156 branches here as I don't quite follow... "And if you look at the z156 branches, then you can surround a Serbian man, moreover in the royal trunk of Df98, moreover in the royal branch of S18823"?

The thing it U106 is quite common among Germanic remains currently, but that isn't the only "culture" it will be found in as it was already found in two of those Roman "York Gladiators" 6drif-3 and 3drif-16 - who are more similar to ancient Britons!

Cheers,
Charlie

Power77
12-26-2018, 02:35 AM
@Prunj7, you should order a proper Y-DNA test. You might not even be R1b-U106 for all we know.

Prunj7
12-26-2018, 02:48 PM
You realize that your Ydna has literally nothing to do with Autosomal dna, and "Bosnia" didn't even exist at the time of your haplogroup?

I am well aware that neither Bosnia nor Montenegro existed back then, but how else was I supposed to say where I am from and currently living?
I also know that Autosomal dna isn't connected to Ydna, but if I had a haplogroup mainly found in North Scandinavia and my Autosomal dna had said I was mostly matching populations in Finland, Russia, Sweden, Estonia. Then you could kind of use that to correlate why I might have that haplogroup. Just an example ofcourse.

My suprise was that I was born in Bosnia, and my ancestry is all from modern day Bosnia and Montenegro for at least 250 years from what I could track. So I obviously expected a haplogroup that the majority of people in the Balkans had. When I got this haplogroup and looked it up, people where talking about how it was mainly "Germanic" and mainly found in North Western Europe.

Also what do you mean with Bosnia don't exist at the time of this haplogroup? Both the country and the haplogroup exist right now no?

Scat
01-02-2019, 11:24 PM
Kazakh man only predictor info-z304. Mordovians and one tatar man with snp z304+ But isnt famous subclades df98and df96

Scat
01-02-2019, 11:31 PM
What branches of Z156 are the Mordovians and that Kazakh? Just curious as to what part of Z156 they belong.

Cheers,
Charlie

Kazakh man only predictor info z304.Mordovians and one tatar man have snp z304 plus but it isnt famous df98and df96

Wing Genealogist
01-03-2019, 12:08 AM
DF98 & DF96 are two major subclades of Z304. Almost everyone who is Z304+ would either fall under either DF98 or DF96.

Technically, DF96 is a subclade of an Indel (BY12480) and BY12480 is a direct subclade of Z304. However, almost everyone who is BY12480+ is DF96+

FTDNA does a good job displaying their Haplotree at: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R


Edit: Unfortunately, many test results don't try to go down below Z304 (if they even drill down that far).

Bollox79
01-03-2019, 03:08 AM
Kazakh man only predictor info z304.Mordovians and one tatar man have snp z304 plus but it isnt famous df98and df96

Scat,

Thank you very much for the response! It is interesting that they are all Z304+ (or predicted to be Z304+) and as Wing Genealogist says almost all Z304+ men are usually DF96 or DF98 positive - but there are small sub groups under Z304 that also DF98- and DF96-.

Currently I think that at earlier levels (Z304 and sub groups - including DF98) our group was moving around in the Bronze Age with the Unetice culture as we already have a Unetice mature male burial that is DF98+ and additionally S1911 and S1894/S1900 at Jinonice near Prague (I am also positive for those SNPs). My question is (and I hope it will be answered by aDNA within the next year or two...) is did it move and then stay in the area and then "became" Germanic (as in Wettin's case - but could be another culture or group also) or did it move North and then came back with Germanic tribesman and moved around a bit more in the Germanic migration period? The reason I wonder that is because we have the DF98 relationship with the House of Wettin (considered a Saxon noble family, but their paternal origin is still in debate - this is from research on that topic translated by me from German: "On the other hand, the assumptions prove that the WETTINER were descended from a group of relatives whose head name was Burkhard, and at the same time were in contact with the Harzgraves through the "agnatus" Rikdag. However, only the third approach succeeds in convincingly combining these two insights and the message of the Saxon mirror. Therefore, it is most probable that the WETTINER are paternal derived from the Swabian BURKHARDINGERN and maternal from the Resident Count of Harz [However, Thietmar von Merseburg explicitly described the Margrave Rikdag as "agnatus" Dedos I. Wenskus decides on a cognitive connection.]."

So you have the Wettin connection and we have already found Z305 (just above Z304) at Altenerding (sample AED 106) and also DF96 (sample ALH 1) in early Bavarian (Baiuvarii) samples from near Munich dated to about 450-500 AD. I think the fact that DF96 and Z305 shows up at all in Germanic remains seems to indicate that Z305 - Z304 and DF96... possibly played a part in the Germanic migrations and possibly might be true for DF98? In the small subgroups under Z304 (but that are not DF96 or DF98) there is more than one Polish sample - even one family who is nobility from 1398 Wielkopolska.

I think we need many more samples from Germany and further East (both ancient and modern) to figure this all out - as there are some interesting things East of Germany - my newest match in my small group of FGC14840 has paternal history from Prussia and possibly Poland... he and I are the guys that are FGC14840+ and negative for the SNP that the others under us share... so hopefully we share more of my variants as he has agreed to do more testing!

That brings my attention even more to the East - as my little group of FGC14840 - when looking at European members (and not American descendants of probable Colonial families of Isles descent) - are all around the Baltic - two Swedes and a Polish/Prussian. If we remember the paper with both "Roman Gladiators" 3drif-16 (who was DF96) and my distant kinsman 6drif-3 (see the shared SNPs in my signature!)... they had autosomal connection to the Baltic - more than the other "Gladiators" tested so I think it is possible their male line could have come from the area of modern day Poland or a population that moved through there (Goths?). Still that is all based on a very small number of samples so it may change... depends on what we find in the future - but there seems to be a tentative connection ;-)!

Additionally from my side of the pond - statistically my male line from Pennsylvania is very likely to have been German (considering the Weaver family trees I can find at ancestry from my area of PA) - Hessen or Prussian/Lower Saxony... I have one in mind who shows up in my autosomal cousins from near my area of Pennsylvania and their immigrant ancestor was a Michael Weber (Weaver) from Wittenburg, Hannover, Niedersachsen, Germany. One of his sons was a Johann Adam Weber (Weaver) born about the right time for my 4th GGF Adam Weaver - but in order to prove that I would need to have their Y-DNA tested to be sure! I am currently waiting on a DNA test from ancestry (I already did the FTDNA family finder) and also have one of my male line Weaver cousins from my father's generation doing the same so we can see what family DNA circles we share and I will look for that Weaver family and others that haven't tested their Y-DNA yet. Some have, but I they are not DF98+... though more than one are U106+.

If you are in contact with these samples, please ask them to check out either the FTDNA U106 DNA project (if they tested under FTDNA they can join) and even if they didn't test at FTDNA they can check out the U106 yahoo group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/info

As I said - we really need more samples from the continent and also from the East - there is currently too much of an Isles bias in the testing data that I think skews the data... I think we are going to find DF96 and DF98 where we didn't quite expect it when we get enough samples!

Cheers,
Charlie

Edit: Additionally Z156 itself (before Z305/Z306 and Z304) could have been an early movement West as we have sub groups of Z156 that are not Z305/306 or Z304 and they are more common in the West and the Isles - Scots and Irish... there is that to consider. Really we need Late Bronze Age and Iron Age samples from different places to see what haplogroups were there or not there!

Scat
01-03-2019, 02:26 PM
sorry guys, i m wrong. I belive that it isnt df98 or df96.but i saw not correctly. Its isnt df98, but of course it is df96 because it is by12480. It is info about tatar man. About kazakh it is only predictor info. I will find info about mordovian soon, i hope

Wing Genealogist
01-03-2019, 03:38 PM
sorry guys, i m wrong. I belive that it isnt df98 or df96.but i saw not correctly. Its isnt df98, but of course it is df96 because it is by12480. It is info about tatar man. About kazakh it is only predictor info. I will find info about mordovian soon, i hope

DF96 is a subclade of BY12480. However, not everyone who is BY12480+ is DF96+. There are a small number of other clades below BY12480 besides DF96.

DF96 was found before BY12480 and even today DF96 is much better known than it's parent (BY12480). If the Tartar man is called BY12480 but not called DF96 then it is more likely he would be DF96-. To be technical, depending on the test(s) this individual had taken, it is entirely possible he either never tested for DF96, or he did not receive ANY result for DF96.

Wheal
08-27-2019, 04:02 PM
my dad is BY12480 but he is U106... he is negative DF96