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Muireagain
12-27-2018, 03:55 PM
It has been a number of years since SNP FGC6545 was identified with the Ui Maine line. However the results posted at ytree.org, only show two family groups: the O'Kellys (showing FGC6545 as the Ui Maine line) and the Trainors from the area associated with the Airgíalla. Are there other families that are FGC6545+, such as the Maddens, Larking, Egans?

kikkk
12-27-2018, 04:01 PM
A bit off-topic, but do you happen to know which line is associated with FGC7559?

Pallama
03-28-2019, 05:31 PM
It has been a number of years since SNP FGC6545 was identified with the Ui Maine line. However the results posted at ytree.org, only show two family groups: the O'Kellys (showing FGC6545 as the Ui Maine line) and the Trainors from the area associated with the Airgíalla. Are there other families that are FGC6545+, such as the Maddens, Larking, Egans?


From your use of last names, I surmise that you are already familiar with Alex Williamson's Big Tree project. The two clusters you describe (Ui Maine Treinfhir and Ceallaig are the dominant clusters for FGC6545. The other names you mention (as well as Pugh, Townsend Lloyd Dyer Heavey, Green, and Shannon) that descend from otherwise predominately Kelly clusters look like non-paternal events (adoption, name change, etc). It is ironic that the names linked to Threinfhir in the annals of the four masters (Braseal, Madden, etc) don't show up with much frequency. Obviously things can change with more Y-DNA tests on these names.

Muireagain
12-20-2019, 11:13 PM
I find no association of the family name Treindhir with the Ui Maine tribe? The surname is associated with the Airighialla. The O Ceallaigh, kings of Ui Maine, appear during Brian Boru’s conquest of Ireland. The O’Ceallaigh pedigree seems suspect.

FionnSneachta
12-21-2019, 01:04 AM
I find no association of the family name Treindhir with the Ui Maine tribe? The surname is associated with the Airighialla. The O Ceallaigh, kings of Ui Maine, appear during Brian Boru’s conquest of Ireland. The O’Ceallaigh pedigree seems suspect.

The O'Ceallaigh surname appears during Brian Boru's conquest of Ireland because that is around the time that surnames were introduced. Tadhg Mór was only the 2nd generation of O'Ceallaigh. The pedigrees for every surname go far back in time and therefore can't be fully relied upon for any surname. There isn't really any way to know for certain how accurate these pedigrees are. Uí Maine is mentioned in the Annals of the Four Masters as early as 531 AD. The Annals were written retrospectively but there isn't much else in terms of documentation for the time. The settlement of Maine Mór from Tyrone is recorded in the 'Life Of St. Grellan.' A poem written in 1347 addressed to chief Eoghan O'Madden gives an account of the chiefs of Uí Maine up to Gadhra (ancestor of Eoghan O'Madden) who succeeded Tadhg Mór. The pedigree is then given of Gadhra down to the then current chief Eoghan O'Madden.

So far, the pedigree would seem to be correct back to Domhnall Mór based on DNA testing with the Keogh tester allowing us to be quite certain that Domhnall Mór was positive for BY3437. Beyond that it is more uncertain since no other surnames have appeared except Traynor. The Traynor connection could be back from when the family were in Tyrone and therefore not descended from Maine Mór since the Traynors are largely based in the north.

It should be considered that even if the pedigree between Domhnall Mór and Maine Mór is incorrect, there should be other surnames appearing regardless since other lines would have taken up different surnames around the same time. Surnames were only introduced about 800 AD in Ireland so other surnames than Kelly should be appearing whether connected or not to the pedigree but they're absent. Until more surnames appear, I don't think that the pedigree can be considered incorrect. The BY3442 SNP is in a block of 7 SNPs that is between the BY3437 block and the block of SNPs that the Traynors descend from. Therefore, there is plenty of opportunity for branching in the future to split that block of 7 SNPs with other surnames.

If there is a problem with the pedigree, there could be a variety of reasons for this. The pedigree could have been falsified as you seem to be suggesting but there also could have been an NPE between Maine Mór and Domhnall Mór and there are lots of other possibilities to consider. However, I don't see why the pedigree would have been deliberately falsified when there were close connections with the O'Maddens who did act as chiefs of Uí Maine at different points in time.

Muireagain
12-24-2019, 05:16 AM
Taidg Chatha Briain O Ceallaigh reigns from 1001 to his death at Clontarf in 1014. (The length of his reign is given in the 1347 poem to O'Madden.)
his father Murchadh may or may not be the Murchadh king of Ui Maine recorded by the Annals of Inisfallen, AI962.3: Death of Murchad, king of Uí Maine. (AI records Ui Maine kings not found elsewhere.)
his grandfather Aeda is not recorded in the annals.
his great-grandfather Ceallaig is not recorded in the annals.
his gg-grandfather Fhindachtaig is not recorded in the annals.
his ggg-grandfather Ailella mac Finnrachtaig's death is record in U799.10: Ailill son of Innrechtach, king of Uí Maini of Connacht, dies.

Prior to the Tadhg O Ceallaigh, other ruling line from Maine Moir appear in the annals, however the families descended from these lines are M222>A738+.

The O'Ceallaigh does not have a strong grip of the throne of the Ui Maine until after Brian Boru. Brian Boru is also noted for placing the O'Neill over the Cenel Eoghain. Yet yDNA of the O'Neills of Ulster shown them to be unrelated to the Cenel Eoghain line.

FionnSneachta
12-24-2019, 08:50 PM
Taidg Chatha Briain O Ceallaigh reigns from 1001 to his death at Clontarf in 1014. (The length of his reign is given in the 1347 poem to O'Madden.)
his father Murchadh may or may not be the Murchadh king of Ui Maine recorded by the Annals of Inisfallen, AI962.3: Death of Murchad, king of Uí Maine. (AI records Ui Maine kings not found elsewhere.)
his grandfather Aeda is not recorded in the annals.
his great-grandfather Ceallaig is not recorded in the annals.
his gg-grandfather Fhindachtaig is not recorded in the annals.
his ggg-grandfather Ailella mac Finnrachtaig's death is record in U799.10: Ailill son of Innrechtach, king of Uí Maini of Connacht, dies.

Prior to the Tadhg O Ceallaigh, other ruling line from Maine Moir appear in the annals, however the families descended from these lines are M222>A738+.

The O'Ceallaigh does not have a strong grip of the throne of the Ui Maine until after Brian Boru. Brian Boru is also noted for placing the O'Neill over the Cenel Eoghain. Yet yDNA of the O'Neills of Ulster shown them to be unrelated to the Cenel Eoghain line.

The chief of Uí Maine was not a title that passed from father to son. Therefore, not all of Tadhg's direct paternal ancestors would be recorded in the Annals since they were not all chiefs. The Annals of the Four Masters records the death of Tadhg Mór's father Murchadh: "A.D. 960 - Murchadh, son of Aedh, lord of Hy-Many in Connaught, died."

It is stated in the Registry of Clonmacnoise that Ceallach (great grandfather of Tadhg Mór) granted several townlands to the Church of Clonmacnoise: "Kellagh, mac Finachta, mac Oililla, mac Innrachta, mac Fithiollaigh, mac Dluthaigh, mac Dithcolla, mac Eogain Finn, mac Cormaic, mac Cairbre Crum, from whom are the O'Kellies, bestowed of small cells" to various areas.

It is possible that the O'Kelly family of Uí Maine did become more prominent after Tadhg Mór fought alongside Brian Boru. However, that wouldn't be unusual. Brian Boru was High King of Ireland so naturally it may have brought Tadhg's descendants to greater prominence through association. It still happens today when someone gets in with someone high up the social ladder.

How can you be certain that those who are A738+ are the other Uí Maine families?

Muireagain
12-25-2019, 07:49 AM
Under Irish law, as recorded and present by MacNeill, Taidg Chatha Briain should not become king of the Ui Maine unless: his male line included a previous king of Ui Maine in the last three generation of his male line, i.e. his father, grandfather or great-grandfather had to have been king of Ui Maine. Now Ailella mac Finnrachtaig who is recorded in the annals as king of the Ui Maine is too far from Taidg Chatha Briain to allow him a legal claim the throne. Hence all focus is on the identity of Murchadh, those father is not identifed in the annals of Inisfallen. It is only an assumption that he can be identified with Murchadh mac Aedh, and this is what the four master did in the 17th century (much removed from the 9th century), so unless their evidence or any evidence can be presented we do not know for certain that the Murchadh who died circa 862 was Murchadh mac Aedh.

However legal rights in Ireland and elsewhere were frequently trumped by might, as can be seen in Brian Boru installation of the alien O'Neill over Cenel Eoghain.

The Ui Maine have been in Connacht since the 6th century if not earlier. Yet they are no other FGC6545+ families from Connacht (other than the O Ceallaigh). This seems very strange that there are no other Ui Maine families? Especially given the numerous families associated with the Ui Maine (shown below).

There is a problem identifying what dynastic surnames emerged from the Ui Maine for only a fraction are identified in the Book of Ui Maine. And can we accept identification such as Clann Aedagain as the MacEgans or Muintir Chobhthaigh as the O'Coffey or Munitir Lorcain as the O'Lorcain? What follows are the major branches of the Ui Maine from the Book of the Ui Maine:

Clann Cernaigh, gives rise to the O'Finain, O'Laidhin, O'Lachtnain, O'Conbhuidhi, O'Ullscaidh, O'Ceinneididh, O'Dorchaidhi, O'Sidhachain, O'Furadhain, O'Cuilein, O'Crabhadhain, per the Book of the Ui Maine
Clann Comain ??
Clann Cremthainn, identified with the O'Murcadhain and the O'Mugroin.
Ua Nadsluaigh, i. e. O'Finain, per the Book of the Ui Maine
Clann Cairpri Cruim, includes the O'Duibhginn
Clann Aedhagain, identified with the MacEgan
Clann Flaitheamhail Mic Dluthaigh ??
Ua Domhnaill ??
Clann Bresail, a quo the O'Domhnallains, per the Book of the Ui Maine
Clann Fiachra Finn ??
Clann Amlaibh ??
Cinel Critain ??
Ua Lomain ??
Cinel Fathaidh ??
Ui Cormaic of Maenmagh ??
Ui Duach ??
Cinel Aedha ??
Sil Anmchadha give rise to the Ua Draighnen, viz., Ceannfaeladh, Ua Churrain, Ua Flannchadha, Ua Cinaeith, O'Gledra and Muintir Chobhthaigh. From the Muintir Chobhthaigh are the O'Maddens and Muinter Chinaith, and Muinter Tresaigh, and Muinter Laeghaire Mic Dunadhaigh, Ua Flannchadha, Ua Gledraigh, Ua Currain, Ua Aedha, Ua Cairten, and Ua Cuagain. And the h-Ui Donngalaigh, Muinter Chonnagain, Mac Cadhusaighs, Ui Ainchine Mic Ceallaigh, Ua Bimnein Mic Muireadhaigh, Ua Tolairg Mic Neill, Ua Aithusa Mic Neill, Ua Brenainn, Muinter Chicharain, Muinter Rodaighi, Muinter Conghalaigh, and h-Ua Daigin. And Mac Uallachans, Ua Dubhlaich, Muinter Lorcain, Mac Cellaighs, Ua Finnachtaigh, Ua Coscraidh, Ua Maenaigh, Ua Connachtain, Ua Canain, and Ua Maelduibh.

As for A738 families the O'Coffey of south Roscommon can be identified as A738, the O Murchadhain of the lands of Clann Cremthainn are A738+, the Mac Aedhagain of east Galway are A738, the O Lorcain of southeast Galway are A738. All these families would normally associated with the Ui Maine, accept that they are A738 and not FGC6545 as mono-family of the O Ceallaigh. The different lines of these A738 families speak to a local diversity trending back to 6th century (based on the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of A738 is 1448.23 YBP (502 AD). with a 95% confidence interval is 228 AD to 796 AD.)

FionnSneachta
12-26-2019, 12:39 AM
Under Irish law, as recorded and present by MacNeill, Taidg Chatha Briain should not become king of the Ui Maine unless: his male line included a previous king of Ui Maine in the last three generation of his male line, i.e. his father, grandfather or great-grandfather had to have been king of Ui Maine. Now Ailella mac Finnrachtaig who is recorded in the annals as king of the Ui Maine is too far from Taidg Chatha Briain to allow him a legal claim the throne. Hence all focus is on the identity of Murchadh, those father is not identifed in the annals of Inisfallen. It is only an assumption that he can be identified with Murchadh mac Aedh, and this is what the four master did in the 17th century (much removed from the 9th century), so unless their evidence or any evidence can be presented we do not know for certain that the Murchadh who died circa 862 was Murchadh mac Aedh.

However legal rights in Ireland and elsewhere were frequently trumped by might, as can be seen in Brian Boru installation of the alien O'Neill over Cenel Eoghain.

The Ui Maine have been in Connacht since the 6th century if not earlier. Yet they are no other FGC6545+ families from Connacht (other than the O Ceallaigh). This seems very strange that there are no other Ui Maine families? Especially given the numerous families associated with the Ui Maine (shown below).

There is a problem identifying what dynastic surnames emerged from the Ui Maine for only a fraction are identified in the Book of Ui Maine. And can we accept identification such as Clann Aedagain as the MacEgans or Muintir Chobhthaigh as the O'Coffey or Munitir Lorcain as the O'Lorcain?

As for A738 families the O'Coffey of south Roscommon can be identified as A738, the O Murchadhain of the lands of Clann Cremthainn are A738+, the Mac Aedhagain of east Galway are A738, the O Lorcain of southeast Galway are A738. All these families would normally associated with the Ui Maine, accept that they are A738 and not FGC6545 as mono-family of the O Ceallaigh. The different lines of these A738 families speak to a local diversity trending back to 6th century (based on the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of A738 is 1448.23 YBP (502 AD). with a 95% confidence interval is 228 AD to 796 AD.)

The chiefs of Uí Maine did not all follow the rule that the 'male line included a previous king of Uí Maine in the last three generation of his male line, i.e. his father, grandfather or great-grandfather had to have been king of Ui Maine.' 21. Diarmaid O'Madden sl. 1135 was chief of Uí Maine. However, the last chief of Uí Maine in his line was his 2x great grandfather 17. Gadhra Mór who succeeded Tadhg Mór. The last ancestor before 17. Gadhra was his 3x great grandfather 12. Cobhthach. Before 12. Cobhthach, it was his 2x great grandfather 8. Eoghan Buac. Looking at the Kelly line, there are other examples. 14. Finnachta was chief but his last ancestor was his 4x great grandfather 8. Eoghan Finn. 23. Conchobhar O'Kelly sl. 1180 who was chief had his last ancestor as chief being his 3x great grandfather 18. Tadhg Mór.

Hypothetically, if it was a case that the chief of Uí Maine needed to have a great grandfather or closer to be chief, 18. Tadhg Mór's great grandfather 15. Ceallach is recorded as chief of Uí Maine as was Ceallach's father 14. Finnachta. I'm not sure why out of all the dates and statements provided by the Annals of the Four Masters that it is Murchadh who died in 960 and his father being called into question in particular. If it was a case that Brian Boru made the O'Kellys chiefs of Uí Maine, there were still O'Maddens becoming chiefs of Uí Maine after the Battle of Clontarf. It's not as if the O'Kellys with the aid of Brian completely supplanted the other families going by that. Brian Boru was born after Ceallach died and Murchadh (Tadhg Mór's father) had died before Brian Boru started trying to extend his authority.

I understand that it is unusual that no other FGC6545+ families have appeared in Connacht. However, as said previously, it is true that other surnames should be appearing whether connected with Uí Maine or not. Unless other surnames of other family groups start appearing that are completely unrelated, I think that it's too soon to say there is something off about the O'Kelly pedigree going back to Maine Mór. The O'Kellys are hardly the only line of that family group to survive with no other BY3442+ surnames existing. They're not some group that disppeared off the face of the earth for generations and only returned around the time of Brian Boru.

Looking at the A738+ surnames, there are a lot that I would not associate with Connacht. Dunne in particular is one that I'd associate with Leinster. I'm not very familiar with the Guinn surname but it seems to be associated with the Midlands. Also not very familiar with Knowles but seems to be associated with the Midlands as well. The Davis surname is assocaited with Wexford, Fermanagh and Dublin. Gallagher is associated with Donegal. There are Larkins associated with Leinster, Oriel, Uí Maine, Meath and Tipperary so it is not exclusive to Connacht. There are different origins for Coffey including Tipperary, Kerry, another Galway family, Cork, Uí Maine, Mayo, Westmeath, and Derry. There are various origins for Martin. The McGrails were a Gallowglass warrior family who established themselves in Counties Mayo and Leitrim. Heaneys are associated with Mayo and Limerick. The Egan surname is associated with Uí Maine, Monaghan, Armagh and Offaly. Morgan is associated with Westmeath, Longford, Offaly, and Uí Maine. To me looking at the pattern of the surnames, they seem to have a common location around the Midlands extending south to Limerick and north to Fermanagh.

Whatever the case may be, the O'Kellys were chiefs of Uí Maine, at the very least, from the 1000s up to the 1600s. I don't think that they can be dismissed as not being the 'real' Uí Maine at that stage. It may be a case that other families were also of Uí Maine that aren't FGC6545+ but, if that is the case, it doesn't make one the real Uí Maine over the other. Both groups would have ruled Uí Maine at different stages.

Colk
01-01-2020, 08:18 PM
FionnSneachta, Looking at the A738+ surnames, there are a lot that I would not associate with Connacht. Dunne in particular is one that I'd associate with Leinster. I'm not very familiar with the Guinn surname but it seems to be associated with the Midlands. Also not very familiar with Knowles but seems to be associated with the Midlands as well. The Davis surname is assocaited with Wexford, Fermanagh and Dublin. Gallagher is associated with Donegal. There are Larkins associated with Leinster, Oriel, Uí Maine, Meath and Tipperary so it is not exclusive to Connacht. There are different origins for Coffey including Tipperary, Kerry, another Galway family, Cork, Uí Maine, Mayo, Westmeath, and Derry. There are various origins for Martin. The McGrails were a Gallowglass warrior family who established themselves in Counties Mayo and Leitrim. Heaneys are associated with Mayo and Limerick. The Egan surname is associated with Uí Maine, Monaghan, Armagh and Offaly. Morgan is associated with Westmeath, Longford, Offaly, and Uí Maine. To me looking at the pattern of the surnames, they seem to have a common location around the Midlands extending south to Limerick and north to Fermanagh.
Interesting comment on the Egans as on the Clan Egan DNA Project the Group 2 (Egan & Keegan) are in number 50% of the Group and if SNP tested R-BY198+. That is Ui Briuin.
Also found this interesting in relation to Group 4 - http://curleysurname.weebly.com/dna-results.html

GogMagog
01-03-2020, 03:55 PM
Group 2 of Egan would be of the royal line.

Muireagain
01-03-2020, 11:15 PM
[QUOTE=Looking at the A738+ surnames, there are a lot that I would not associate with Connacht. Dunne in particular is one that I'd associate with Leinster. I'm not very familiar with the Guinn surname but it seems to be associated with the Midlands. Also not very familiar with Knowles but seems to be associated with the Midlands as well. The Davis surname is assocaited with Wexford, Fermanagh and Dublin. Gallagher is associated with Donegal. There are Larkins associated with Leinster, Oriel, Uí Maine, Meath and Tipperary so it is not exclusive to Connacht. There are different origins for Coffey including Tipperary, Kerry, another Galway family, Cork, Uí Maine, Mayo, Westmeath, and Derry. There are various origins for Martin. The McGrails were a Gallowglass warrior family who established themselves in Counties Mayo and Leitrim. Heaneys are associated with Mayo and Limerick. The Egan surname is associated with Uí Maine, Monaghan, Armagh and Offaly. Morgan is associated with Westmeath, Longford, Offaly, and Uí Maine. To me looking at the pattern of the surnames, they seem to have a common location around the Midlands extending south to Limerick and north to Fermanagh.

Whatever the case may be, the O'Kellys were chiefs of Uí Maine, at the very least, from the 1000s up to the 1600s. I don't think that they can be dismissed as not being the 'real' Uí Maine at that stage. It may be a case that other families were also of Uí Maine that aren't FGC6545+ but, if that is the case, it doesn't make one the real Uí Maine over the other. Both groups would have ruled Uí Maine at different stages.[/QUOTE]

Identifying surnames with certain areas of Ireland may be what the Irish surname guide books do. However, a review of the Irish medieval pedigrees shows - that many minor families across Ireland had the same surnames as the more famous families that are remembered today. Hence the exercise is limited. It is from the correlation between surname yDNA (i.e., the septs of the tribe) and the tribal pedigrees that claim them. This identifications allows with some certainty in identifying the tribe that the yDNA belongs to. For the example the close association between the M222+ MacLochlanns and O’Donnellys, plus Cenel Eoghain sept surnames (such as O’Gormley), allows for the identification of the yDNA of old royal lines of Cenel Eoghain line.

What I argue is that minor families that came to be Ui Maine, share BY198/A725, the O Ceallaigh are out on a limb:
The BY198/A725 Larkins trace themselves to Ui Maine lands of SE Galway – see https://jogg.info/pages/62/files/Larkin.pdf
The BY198/A725 Egan are the Egan Group 2, which GogMagog points out are now identified as “the royal (chiefly) line of Egans of Ui Maine”.
The BY198/A725 Coffey form group B & C, i.e., those from Meath/Westmeaht/Rosccommon http://www.coffey.ws/FamilyTree/DNA/P1F4.htm
http://www.coffey.ws/familytree/dna/CousinsData.pdf hence strongly assoicating themselves with the O'Coffey of the Ui Maine lands of Co. Rosccommon
The BY198/A725 Morgan include the Morgans of Cornpark, as well other lines from parish of Killian and Co. Roscommon. All within Ui Maine lands.

Hence it is a fact that B198/A725 clusters in the Ui Maine lands. And does so soon after assumption of dynastic surnames in the 11th century.

However, there is another clue that B198/A725 are local to these Ui Maine lands. For FamilyTreeDNA has now identified a new SNP (A18726) under S660/DF105, that combines the three former separate branches: A259 (the Ui Briuin families), BY198/A725 (Ui Maine? families) and an obscure line R-A18726 (the Keigs on the Isle of Mann).

The Ui Maine lands sit between branches of A259+ families, i.e., the Uí Briúin Aí families in northern Roscommon and the Uí Briúin Seóla families, located along the east shore of Lough Corrib in County Galway. In fact the A18726 line dominates southern Connacht.

The Ui Maine of Connacht are cited in the annals as existing in the 6th century AD. The same cannot be said for the O Ceallaigh yDNA line.

Using the yDNA logic: given that the Larkins and Egans come from in the same area. It likely that their common ancestor also lived in the same area. The Larkin/Egan common ancestor, before the split, lived approximately between 502 AD and 706 AD. And per Occam’s Razor is simpler to believe BY198/A725 represents the original Ui Maine population than the O’Ceallaigh who are simply outsiders. Who may have been raisen to power by Brian Boru, as he did elsewhere.

BY198/A725: “Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 1448.23 YBP (502 AD). The 95% confidence interval is 228 AD to 796 AD.”

FGC40502: “Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 1244.14 YBP (706 AD). The 95% confidence interval is 370 AD to 1061 AD.”

(What I have not consulted are the early 11th century Mac Liag’s praise poems to Tadg O Ceallaigh.)

FionnSneachta
01-04-2020, 04:54 PM
However, there is another clue that B198/A725 are local to these Ui Maine lands. For FamilyTreeDNA has now identified a new SNP (A18726) under S660/DF105, that combines the three former separate branches: A259 (the Ui Briuin families), BY198/A725 (Ui Maine? families) and an obscure line R-A18726 (the Keigs on the Isle of Mann).

The Ui Maine lands sit between branches of A259+ families, i.e., the Uí Briúin Aí families in northern Roscommon and the Uí Briúin Seóla families, located along the east shore of Lough Corrib in County Galway. In fact the A18726 line dominates southern Connacht.

The Ui Maine of Connacht are cited in the annals as existing in the 6th century AD. The same cannot be said for the O Ceallaigh yDNA line.

Using the yDNA logic: given that the Larkins and Egans come from in the same area. It likely that their common ancestor also lived in the same area. The Larkin/Egan common ancestor, before the split, lived approximately between 502 AD and 706 AD. And per Occam’s Razor is simpler to believe BY198/A725 represents the original Ui Maine population than the O’Ceallaigh who are simply outsiders. Who may have been raisen to power by Brian Boru, as he did elsewhere.

BY198/A725: “Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 1448.23 YBP (502 AD). The 95% confidence interval is 228 AD to 796 AD.”

FGC40502: “Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 1244.14 YBP (706 AD). The 95% confidence interval is 370 AD to 1061 AD.”

(What I have not consulted are the early 11th century Mac Liag’s praise poems to Tadg O Ceallaigh.)

You are saying that the SNP A18726 linking Uí Maine, Uí Briuin and the Keigs is a clue since it shows that they lived around the one area but Maine Mór is not supposed to have been from Connacht. He was supposed have been from Tyrone originally. I don't think that the Uí Maine family group should be closely linked to other Connacht royal families.

Maine Mór is supposed to have lived around the 4th century so yes, the family of Uí Maine should have been present in Connacht by the 6th century. However, there is nothing to say that the O'Ceallaigh Y-DNA line was in not Connacht in the 6th century also. As I have said, there are no DNA connections to other surnames around this time to support or refute the presence of this Y-DNA line in Connacht. The only other surname is Traynor which could be from when the line was in Ulster since there are a good few SNPs separting the Kellys from the Traynors. The Uí Maine family group are supposed to be outsiders to Connacht since Maine Mór was originally from Tyrone.

I'm not saying that you're wrong on this. I do understand that Egan, Larkin and Coffey are associated with Uí Maine. You could be right but, as I've said, I would just be interested to see what other surnames match with the Kellys who share an ancestor from before the introduction of surnames before making definite conclusions. I also don't see why a possibility of an NPE isn't being considered rather than some randomer getting in Brian Boru's good books so he made them head of a kingdom. Ceallach was recorded as a chief before Brian Boru's time. The article on the Larkins was written in 2010 before there had been much SNP testing and there has been much more testing since then as can be seen in my surname group: https://imgur.com/a/bZ96txw At the moment, we're just going around in circles.

Colk
01-05-2020, 06:44 AM
Cheers Muireagean and FionnScheachta good discussion. Happy NY.

GogMagog
01-05-2020, 03:52 PM
Keig, Isle of Man, MacKeegan?

Muireagain
01-08-2020, 12:15 AM
In MacLaig’s early 11th century poem starting “The blessing of Abruin be upon Brighit” or “bennacht Abruin ar Brighit". https://archive.org/details/zeitschriftfrce00meesgoog/page/n236. It names early 11th century members of Ui Maine that recovered his cattle form a raid across the Shannon. It names a Tadg mac Éidigáin.

In the paper “In the shadow of a high-king’: Tadg Mór Ua Cellaig and the Battle of Clontarf”, Dr Joe Mannion writes:
“Mentioned in one of these poems are leading individuals such asGadra, king of Síl Anmchada, Tadg mac Éidigáin of Clann Diarmada, Tadg Echtge UaConaill of Cenél Fhéichín, Aed Ua Donnchada of Uí Cormaic Máenmaige, and an unidentified Cathal amuigh a Máenmach”

He has connected “Tadg mac Éidigáin” with “Clann Diarmada”. If so, it seems Tadg could well be a son of Aodhagain of Clann Diarmada, i.e., the founder of the MacEgans.

(there is also the line: “Glantar sciath Éidigháin úais, nIr Díall éceandáil da éis, ní targa a tír Maine meand óglach bud fear tar a eis.” In another poem mentioned below.)
There is another of MacLaig’s poem that I am searching for: “Let the King of Gaela’s shield be burnished”. This in it’s opening line tells that Tadhg O Ceallaigh was given the honory tile of ‘king of Gaela’, which is mentioned in the Leabhar Na gCeart:

BOUND IS THE KING OF CRUACHAIN, conceal it not,
To give two score vats at the banquet,
And not to depart from them there
From the noble king of Eire.

The king of Gaela of substance
Is entitled to his return now,
Three score cows, two hundred steeds,
Four rings,—it is no bad award.

Four drinking-horns on which is gold,
Which he brings with him to the banquet.
And to leave them in the west, in his houte,
With the prince of Cruuchain of the host.

Four shields of red color.
Four helmets of equal color.
Four coats of mail after them.
Four lances for valiant combat.

It is one of his restrictions that Cruachain should be thrice ravaged,
It is his prerogative to have a fleet on Loch Rib;
If he observe each one of these,
He shall usually obtain Teamhair TEAMHAIR.

[Kingdom of Geala is sperate to the kingship of the Ui Maine, how have a separate section below]

ENTITLED is the king of great Ui Maine
To four drinking-horns of them for the banquet,
To twenty cows and twenty steeds,
To two hundred suits of clothes,—not a false award.

Entitled is the king of Ui Fiachrach Fionn
To four ships with a boat,
Thirty women, large [and] hardy,
And three drinking horns.

Entitled is the king of the Three Tuatha,
Although the ignorant know it not,
To twenty beeves and twenty pigs,
Twenty tinnes (salted pigs) for his brave people.

Entitled is the king of Luighne' to reward,
To four shields for deeds of valor,
To four tunics with red gold,
To four ships, not a bad gift.

They are not entitled to more than this
From the king of Cruachain, the warrior;
All are thus mutually bound,
And to repair to Teamhair.

ENTITLED is the king of Midhe (Meath) the horseman
From the king of Eire of high fame
To seven plough-yokes, which plough the land,
And to seven score flocks.

(I believe these kings are named in the MacLiag poem “Let the King of Gaela’s shield be burnished”?)

However, as John O'Donovan identifies Gaela as being located in Ui Maine terrority???

John O'Donovan’s note : “Gaela, .i.e, the king of Connacht who is called of Geala, the seat of the O’Lomain in Ui Maine. This name is now obsolete, but it appears from several references to it that it was near Loch Riach. nr Loughea, in Galway. See Tribes and Customs of Ui Maine, page 34, note ', and Annals of the Four Masters at the year 949.”

“M949.12 A victory was gained over the men of Muscraighe-thire by Ua-Lomain-Gaela.”
“U916.4 … Conligán son of Draignén, chief of Uí Lomáin Gaela, and … died.”

This note reads: “O'Lomain.—This seems to be the name Anglicised Lomond, but the Editor is not aware that it is at the present extant in Hy-Many, where a family or tribe of the name were no doubt formerly, for we learn from the Annals of the Four Masters, at the year 949, that O'Lomain, of Geala, , defeated the inhabitants of Ormond in that year. There is another branch of the family settled in Finnabhair, now Finnure in the barony of Leitrim, and county Galway. – See Map”

There pedigree is given in the “The Tribes and Customs of the Hy-Maine”, translated by John O'Donovan:

“Now THE SIL MAELANFAIDH.—PEDIGREE OF O'LOMAIN.
Ruaidhri, son of Coinnligan, son of Draighnen, son of Eochaidh, son of Connmach, son of Forbasach, son of Coidbeanach, son of Rechtagan, son of Odhran, son of Maelenaidh, son of Eochaidh, son of Ainmire, son of Aengus Loman, son of Dallan, son of Bresal, son of Maine Mor, a quo h-Ui Maine. Aengus Loman, the son of Dallan, had five sons, viz., two Eochaidhs, Ainmire, Carrthach, and Fathach; ut poeta dirit: ‘Eochaidh, Eochaidh, Ainmire, Carrthach, the beautiful, fair branch, A race of brothers I have enumerated And Fathach Finn were the sons of Aengus.’”

(I note Aengus Loman would have lived too early to be an originator for an 11th century Irish dynastic surname.)

What is the importance of Geala?

Colk
01-16-2020, 11:04 PM
Hi GogMagog, Interesting post about the Keig of Island of Man.
#742967 uploaded to YFull, very interesting with my most SNP matches being with Keig x 2 Isle of Man and the other top matches being Ireland = Galway, Donegal and Antrim. Also Wales and Scotland.

GogMagog
01-19-2020, 03:19 PM
Hi Colk, I am going a bit cross eyed, my latest DNA test (supposedly the most accurate) has 100% Irish and of that all confined to a few counties. Thought some Scots or "other" would emerge!

Colk
01-25-2020, 06:33 AM
Hi GogMagog, what was your latest testing, I have done BigY700 and am waiting on Ancestry. R-FT94609, downstream R-BY198. Cheers.

GogMagog
04-05-2020, 08:20 AM
Ancestry.

Colk
04-05-2020, 09:11 PM
Hi GogMagog, my Ancestry has me at 66% Irish, 34% England, Wales and Northern Europe. Not surprised about the Irish bit as 7 of my 8 Paternal GGgrandparents were Irish born. From Galway to Meath across the midlands. YFull now has me sitting at R-BY198, where FTDNA has me below R-BY198 at R-FT96409. Cheers mate.

GogMagog
04-06-2020, 02:08 PM
I am BY198, originally Egan. I am A8815 neg however.

Colk
04-06-2020, 10:39 PM
Hi GogMagog
YFull YTree v8.04.00 View: classicscientific new YTree statisticsArchive SEARCH
HomeA0-TA1A1bBTCTCFFGHIJKHIJKIJKKK2K2bPP1P-P337P-P226RR-Y482R1R1bR-L754R-L389R-P297R-M269R-L23R-L51R-L52R-L151R-P312R-S461R-L21R-DF13R-DF49R-Z2980R-Z2976R-DF23R-Z2961R-S645R-Z2965R-M222R-Y2605R-Y2841R-DF104R-DF109R-A18726

Simple chart
Normal size Zoom out
R-BY198 > R-FGC40507 > R-Y66755
R-BY198 > R-A15865 > R-A15877 > R-A17850
Cheers

GogMagog
04-08-2020, 01:59 PM
Ancestry, I am 100% Irish, South Ulster, East Connaught and Leinster which accords with my paper trail and recent family history. I'll look up that Y tree ref later!

Pallama
05-16-2022, 04:20 PM
It has been a number of years since SNP FGC6545 was identified with the Ui Maine line. However the results posted at ytree.org, only show two family groups: the O'Kellys (showing FGC6545 as the Ui Maine line) and the Trainors from the area associated with the Airgíalla. Are there other families that are FGC6545+, such as the Maddens, Larking, Egans?

We have a Treinfhir Big Y project on FTDNA with 35+ Big Y results. It is private due to member preference. However ytree.net shows (with the exception off a Pugh (60472) and a couple of more recent Maddens (160027 160027 and 864334) none of the names which so many people try to attribute to the UiMaine.

We have a debate about whether the Treinfhir ancestors stayed in Monaghan when MaineMor left, or returned later. Recent evidence (Trinity MS1366 (H.4.75) p135-137) may be suggesting that the ancestors of the Treanors descernded from Maine Mor and returned to Oriel later.

Trinity MS1366 (H4.75) Pp135-137 reads
Ádhamh mac an Fhir Dhorcha
mic Eog[h]ain mic Solaim
mic an Giolla Dhuibh
mic Maighistir[1] Solaimh
mic Seaain[2] mic Solaimh
mic Seain óig mic Uilliam
[p. 135b]
mic Giolla Iosa Rúaidh
mic Domnuill Chairbrigh[3]
mic Seafraidh Droma Chaoín
mic Seaain Et as é
an Seaain-sin An cédduine táinig
a nOirghiallaibh don
chineadh-sin a n-aimsir
Néill Úaibrigh mhic Mághnusa do bheith
na rí Oirghiall táinig
an Seaan-sin as machaire Connacht
, & an bhliadhain chéadna
fúair Máol Seachluinn
óg Ó Labhradha .i.
tigearna an Tríocha bás
mic Domnaill meic Eóg[h]ain
meic Tréinfhir ó n-ainmnighthir
Clann Tréinfhir


Translating

Adam son of Fear Dorcha
son of Eoghan son of Solomon (Solamh)
son of Giolla Dubh
son of Master Solomon
son of Seaán son of Solomon
son of Seaán Óg son of William
son of Giolla Íosa the red-haired
son of Domhnall Cairbreach
son of Geoffrey of Droim Caoin[4]
son of Seaán (And
this Seaán was the first person
who came into Oriel
of that family. When
Niall the Proud son of Maghnus
was king of Oriel is when that Seaán
came from the Plain of Connacht,
and the same year
Maol Seachlainn Óg
Ó Labhradha, i.e.
the lord of Tríocha[5], died)
son of Domhnall son of Eoghan
son of Tréinfhear, from whom
Clann Tréinfhir is named,

The Néill Úaibrigh is Neill the Proud also known as Neill Ladrannaibh (the bandit) Mac Mahon

It is possible son of William son of Giolla Íos could be the "William Mag Treinfher Junior died this year of disease of his leg.“ (Annals of Ulster 1505.24)
but that is speculation

However the earlier part of this document claims descent from Toirdelbach Mor O Conchobair which I think is complete hogwash

FionnSneachta
05-19-2022, 09:33 PM
We now have the surnames Egan, Keogh and Larkin who have Big Y tested and are positive for FGC6545 but not positive for any branch under BY3437 where the different Kelly branches occur. Alex Williamson's Big Tree is no longer being used. There are now 48 testers positive for BY3437 (the common shared SNP of all Kellys) on FTDNA with 2 more at YFull. There are 22 BY3439+, 8 BY3441+, 3 BY24887+, 4 FT32169+, 4 BY74457+, and 7 BY3437+ (no shared downstream SNPs). There are further sub-branches below these SNPs.There is also a Mannion Y-STR match. There are other surnames but they're descendants of Kellys.


The Néill Úaibrigh is Neill the Proud also known as Neill Ladrannaibh (the bandit) Mac Mahon

It is possible son of William son of Giolla Íos could be the "William Mag Treinfher Junior died this year of disease of his leg.“ (Annals of Ulster 1505.24)
but that is speculation

However the earlier part of this document claims descent from Toirdelbach Mor O Conchobair which I think is complete hogwash

Regarding the Treinfhirs, I'm inclined to think that the Treinfhirs could be connected to the Kellys from before Maine Mór. If that was the case, the family wouldn't have needed to go south with Maine Mór and then for the Treinfhirs to go back north. The Traynors would have just always stayed north. The problem with the pedigree is that it has Tréinfhear as the son of Murchadh O'Conor, son of Domhnall O'Conor, son of Tadhg O'Conor, son of Andrew O'Conor, son of Brian Luighneach O'Conor. This is Brian Luighneach's Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Luighnech_Ua_Conchobhair)page which shows his descendants going down to Tréinfhear's grandfather Domhnall. Granted, it is interesting that there is a story of the Tréinfhears being in Connacht before going to Ulster. However, I'm not sure if much can be taken from it when the pedigree connects the Tréinfhears to the O'Conors. The grandfather recorded for Tréinfhear is Domhnall O'Conor who died 1307 so the Tréinfhear surname would have first arose around the late 1300s. In contrast Domhnall Mór O'Kelly died in 1224 and he is believed to be represented by BY3437 so it's not possible for the Tréinfhears to be descended from the O'Kellys.

There is an alternative pedigree to consider. The Library of Ireland website has a pedigree linking the Tréinfhears to the O'Maddens of Ulster. The first no. 103 Treinfear (https://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/madden-4-heremon.php#note2)is the progenitor for Traynor while no. 103. Ceallach (https://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/o-kelly-1-heremon.php)is the progenitor for O'Kelly. Both 103. Treinfear and no. 103 Ceallach descend from no. 85 Colla da Chrioch (https://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/o-hart-1-heremon.php). Colla da Chrioch was supposed to have been the 2x great grandfather of Maine Mór. There would be a shared ancestor between the O'Kellys and Tréinfhears but the ancestor would have been before Maine Mór. We can't take these pedigrees at face value since they do tend to contradict the DNA of other families going back that far. Just a thought though. McDonald (http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html)dates FGC6546 (included in the big block of SNPs along with FGC6550) to around 368 AD. This is around the time of Maine Mór who lived in the 4th century so it's possible that the shared ancestor is before or after Maine Mór.

Cejo
05-21-2022, 03:04 PM
We now have the surnames Egan, Keogh and Larkin who have Big Y tested and are positive for FGC6545 but not positive for any branch under BY3437 where the different Kelly branches occur.

The overwhelming majority of Larkin testers with roots in Ui Maine (specifically in what was once Sil Anmchadha) are positive for BY198. There is one result with BY3437+ in the project, with an unknown ancestral location. I didn't see any who were FGC6545+/BY3437-, but I could have overlooked something. By way of comparison, there are > 20 Larkin results that are BY198+, including multiple Big Y testers with clear links to the area in question.

My reading has been that the Ui Maine families (ie: Kelly and Madden) were from farther north (Omany and Tirmany), and conquered southward pretty early on. The Larkins of Sil Anmchadha/Meelick seem to be more closely related to Ui Briuin families of Connacht, who may have held sway over the area before it became part of Ui Maine. When the Ui Maine conquered Sil Anmchadha (my reading goes), the Larkins and others weren't displaced, they were brought under Ui Maine leadership. One way this can happen is through creative genealogy.

In other words, the genealogies seem to have been devised to reflect the political situation, rather than actual kinship. This was pretty common practice, and seems to fit. To me, it seems that the Larkins and the Maddens were not very closely related. In fact, it seems to me that the Larkins are probably not even of Ui Maine stock, but rather a remnant of earlier times when Sil Anmchadha was under Connacht's overrule. Something similar probably also applies to some of the other "Ui Maine" surnames we find to be genetically distant, as well.

Cejo
05-22-2022, 03:52 PM
A correction for accuracy, I did overlook FGC6545+/BY3437-, from Co. Clare. Also, the BY3437+ result was from Northern Tipperary.

However, this doesn't really change the significant prevalence of M222+ and especially BY198+ in Larkin results with associations to this region.

GogMagog
05-30-2022, 09:24 AM
I had a thought, both the O'Kelly and MacEgan arms have as a central charge a silver castle, is heraldry echoing genetics? Fitzgerald has a red saltire, FitzMaurice has a black one.

Pallama
05-30-2022, 06:13 PM
Great conversation

As I stated in my post, I believe any connection to the O’Connors of Sligo to be complete hogwash. You can kill that horse with Y-DNA, with the elapsed years between Murchadh and Seaan and probably by a half a dozen methods of horsey execution. In any case, the horse is dead, so let us dismount on the topic of the Sligo O’Connors.

The Treinfhir Big Y YDNA project has over 35+ Treinfhir Big Y tests in six separate spontaneous, simultaneous branches under FGC6545 with a common ancestor /founder dating to around 1300AD based on SNPs (plus another unrelated Treinfhirs with ancestry near Carlingford Lough with M222 ancestry). If you are interested in seeing some of the Treinfhir Big Y SNP results, I will share them individually on condition of confidentiality which we have promised members.

Inserted from post below. Apologies.
The average number of mutations across living Big Y branches since the first Treinfhir is 7.56
- but we range from 3 to 12 across the branches.

7.56 * the industry average of 85-100 (vs 83 for McDonald?) years per mutation says our common Treinfhir ancestor lived 640-756 years ago or about 1264 - 1380 AD

Big Y shows 8 more mutations between the Treinfhir MRCA and the UiMaine Split (Ytree shows 10?), suggesting another 680-800 years, leading to a range of 466AD-700AD, well after MaineMor. You’d have to accept 120 years + per SNP to get before Maine Mor. I find that to be a stretch. It leads me to believe the Treinfhir Ceallaigh split happened after Maine Mor but significantly before 1200. How do you get to that McDonald estimate?

With respect to the genealogy, I don’t believe in either Domhnal Mor O Ceallaigh, Domhnal of the UiConchobhair Sligich or Donald O’Connor from Gene Kelly Movies. Rather, I suggest that the author of this information probably knew his most recent ancestors. I know my Irish forefathers to 7 generations, and Medieval Irish were more practiced at this than I am. So perhaps the genealogy as far back as Seaán Óg may be credible. Still, the idea that the author would have known that at some point his ancestors came from Connaught may be more credible than a modern day person suggesting that he didn’t. Credibility goes to the more contemporaneous observer, up to a point.

Beyond the suggestion that the Treinfhir came to Oriel from the Plain of Connaught in the time of “Niell the Arrogant” AKA the Bandit, I have no reason to believe that anything beyond that point is credible.

Finally, any genealogy which conflates Treinfhir emerging from Madden who emerged from Braseal is taking their material from the same genealogy which descends the Treinfhir from the Collas, which is to say, as lacking in credibility that we are descended from Toirdhailbach Mor O’Conchobair. Rather I think the Treinfhir claim to descent from the O’Connors and the claim that the Treinfhir are descended from the Collas, as you suggest, are political constructs.

Edit: me talk pretty one day

Pallama
05-30-2022, 06:38 PM
Excuse me. Skipped a thought. Old man screams at internet.

The average number of mutations across living Big Y branches since the first Treinfhir is 7.56
- but we range from 3 to 12 across the branches. this suggests caution in the use of SNPs for aging of MRCA in any case.

7.56 * the industry average of 85-100 (vs 83 for McDonald?) years per mutation says our common Treinfhir ancestor lived 640-756 years ago or about 1264 - 1380 AD

FionnSneachta
05-30-2022, 09:47 PM
I had a thought, both the O'Kelly and MacEgan arms have as a central charge a silver castle, is heraldry echoing genetics? Fitzgerald has a red saltire, FitzMaurice has a black one.

That is a possibility. For example, this (https://www.jstor.org/stable/25489844?seq=9)is an article that records the four royal chieftains under O'Conor as O'Flannagan, O'Maelbreanan (Mulrenin), O'Finnaghty and Mac Oireachtaigh (Geraghty). These surnames, including O'Conor, all feature an oak on their coar of airms.

FionnSneachta
05-30-2022, 11:27 PM
Great conversationInserted from post below. Apologies.
The average number of mutations across living Big Y branches since the first Treinfhir is 7.56
- but we range from 3 to 12 across the branches.

7.56 * the industry average of 85-100 (vs 83 for McDonald?) years per mutation says our common Treinfhir ancestor lived 640-756 years ago or about 1264 - 1380 AD

Big Y shows 8 more mutations between the Treinfhir MRCA and the UiMaine Split (Ytree shows 10?), suggesting another 680-800 years, leading to a range of 466AD-700AD, well after MaineMor. You’d have to accept 120 years + per SNP to get before Maine Mor. I find that to be a stretch. It leads me to believe the Treinfhir Ceallaigh split happened after Maine Mor but significantly before 1200. How do you get to that McDonald estimate?

With respect to the genealogy, I don’t believe in either Domhnal Mor O Ceallaigh, Domhnal of the UiConchobhair Sligich or Donald O’Connor from Gene Kelly Movies. Rather, I suggest that the author of this information probably knew his most recent ancestors. I know my Irish forefathers to 7 generations, and Medieval Irish were more practiced at this than I am. So perhaps the genealogy as far back as Seaán Óg may be credible. Still, the idea that the author would have known that at some point his ancestors came from Connaught may be more credible than a modern day person suggesting that he didn’t. Credibility goes to the more contemporaneous observer, up to a point.

Beyond the suggestion that the Treinfhir came to Oriel from the Plain of Connaught in the time of “Niell the Arrogant” AKA the Bandit, I have no reason to believe that anything beyond that point is credible.

Finally, any genealogy which conflates Treinfhir emerging from Madden who emerged from Braseal is taking their material from the same genealogy which descends the Treinfhir from the Collas, which is to say, as lacking in credibility that we are descended from Toirdhailbach Mor O’Conchobair. Rather I think the Treinfhir claim to descent from the O’Connors and the claim that the Treinfhir are descended from the Collas, as you suggest, are political constructs.

Edit: me talk pretty one day

We are similar regarding SNPs going back to our shared Kelly ancestor. We have 23 branches with the range going from 4 to 11 back to our shared common Kelly ancestor. The average number of mutations is 7.43. That gives a range of around 617-743 years ago (using 83 and 100 years per SNP) or about 1207 - 1333 AD. That coincides with around the time of Domhnall Mór O'Kelly who died in 1224.

However, the Treinfhir and Kelly branches differ going back to our shared SNP FGC6550. The Kellys have 11 SNP mutations between FGC6550 and BY3437. That puts the Kelly SNP average going back to FCG6550 (representing the common ancestor of Kellys and Treinfhirs) at 18.43. That's around 1530-1843 years ago or about 107 - 420 AD which could be before or after Maine Mór. An average of 18.43 and 15.56 gives us 16.995. That puts us at around 1411-1700 years ago or about 251 - 539 AD. Maine Mór lived in the 4th century AD (c357 - 407 AD) so the common ancestor could be before or after Maine Mór.

The 83 years per SNP is based on what I have seen online for Big Y 700 such as this (https://www.strath.ac.uk/studywithus/centreforlifelonglearning/genealogy/snpdating/)article among others. The date estimate from McDonald is from this page (http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html) where our shared SNP is represented by FGC6546. However, I do not know what year these dates were determined.

I have more confidence in the existence of Domhnall Mór O'Kelly versus Maine Mór. If there's a doubt about Domhnall Mór's existence, I think that the matter of our common ancestor being before or after Maine Mór becomes increasingly moot. Even just from this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_U%C3%AD_Maine)page (I know Wikipedia), Maine Mór is considered semi-historic while Domhnall Mór is considered a high medieval king of Uí Maine. Dates were recorded in annals such as the Annals of the Four Masters with Domhnall Mór's death recorded in the Irish Annals as 1224. The O'Kelly chiefs have been recorded up to the present day. The last King of Uí Maine died in 1611. There are old documents that refer to their existence. These lineages have been recorded in the annals and relationships deduced from battles, deaths, etc. I have a full biography for Domhnall Mór's son Conchobhar, two of his grandsons Domhnall and Donnchadh Muimhneach and his grandson William Buidhe from the Dictionary of Irish Biography published by Cambridge University Press and the Royal Irish Academy. The major O'Kelly branches descend from William Buidhe who we believe to be represented by BY3439.

For example, the Annals of Clonmacnoise wrote of Domhnall Mór's grandson Domhnall Muimhneach:

A.D. 1307. - The Englishmen of Roscommon were all killed by Donogh Moyneach O'Kelly, before his death at Ahascragh, where Philip Montyre, John Montyre, and Matthew Drew, with seventy other persons, were taken and killed. Also the sheriff of Roscommon, Dermott Gall Mac Dermot, and Cormac Mac Kehernie, were by him set at liberty, and concluded peace with him for the burning of the town by Edmond Butler, the deputy of Ireland... Donagh Moyneach O'Kelly, prince of Imaine, a common housekeeper for all Ireland in general, and a very beautiful man, died penitently, and Teig, his son, died immediately after.
He is also mentioned in the Pipe Roll, 15th Edw. I, as Donethad Moynath O'Kelly. These are the sources used for his biography: ALC, i–ii; AU, ii; Ann. Clon.; Ann. Conn.; Misc. Ir. Annals; Ann. Inisf.; NHI, ix, 161; AFM, iii (1990); A. J. Otway-Ruthven, A history of medieval Ireland (1993 ed.), 217, 227, 270
The same sources were used for his father Conchobhar.

They were considered an Irish 'royal' family. It's obviously not to the same extent but we know the pedigree of the British monarchy because it's been documented. It's generally easier to discover lineages of people who were high up in society. We have two genealogical books on the Uí Maine Kellys. There is the Leabhar Ua Maine created c. 1392 - 94 (property of the O'Kelly clan until 1757 and now belonging to the Royal Irish Academy) and The Tribes and Customs of Hy Many published in 1843. The Tribes and Customs of Hy Many used the Book of Lecan as a source created around 1397 - 1418 AD for genealogical information which itself was possibly transcribed or abridged from an older manuscript belonging to the territory of Uí Maine. There are also records of poems made for chiefs such as the one for Eoghan O'Madden who died in 1347 giving a list of successive chiefs. There were still members of the Kelly family who were quite well off as landlords such as Denis Henry Kelly who lived in Castle Kelly and died in 1877. He had a large collection of manuscripts and it would make sense that it would be the wealthier descendants who would keep track of their genealogy. This (https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/walter-lionel-bob-o-kelly-an-appreciation-1.3073203)is an obituary for Walter Lionel O'Kelly back in 2017 who is referred to as chief of the clan.

The O'Conor Dons are another Irish family who can document their lineage far back. The writer of the Tribes and Customs of Hy Many, John O'Donovan, wrote, "No family in Ireland claims greater antiquity and no family in Europe, royal or noble, can trace its descent through so many generations of legitimate ancestors.” The preservation of royal genealogies was of utmost importance for, on them, depended on royal succession.

Pallama
05-31-2022, 01:27 AM
Sorry, when I said “I don’t believe in either Domhnal Mor O Ceallaigh, Domhnal of the UiConchobhair Sligich or Donald O’Connor from Gene Kelly Movies” I meant to say that I don’t believe Treinfhirs are descended from any of the three, not that they didn’t exist. I am absolutely certain Donald O’Connor existed. I’ve seen his movies. I’m reasonably confident the other two existed as well.

FionnSneachta
05-31-2022, 10:22 AM
Sorry, when I said “I don’t believe in either Domhnal Mor O Ceallaigh, Domhnal of the UiConchobhair Sligich or Donald O’Connor from Gene Kelly Movies” I meant to say that I don’t believe Treinfhirs are descended from any of the three, not that they didn’t exist. I am absolutely certain Donald O’Connor existed. I’ve seen his movies. I’m reasonably confident the other two existed as well.

I'll be honest. I thought that you were making a joke. I've heard of Gene Kelly but not Donald O'Connor and had incorrectly assumed that Donald O'Connor was the name of a character played by Gene Kelly :doh: I thought that you were referring to these genealogies and saying that there's no way the Kelly line could be traced back to Domhnall Mór O'Kelly since you only know your ancestors going back 7 generations rather than referring to that O'Connor-Treinfhir document. I'm only certain of my own Kelly line going back to my 3x great grandfather. My dad only has one private SNP but I can't be confident in identifying how we're related to my dad's two closest Big Y matches.

I agree that I don't think that the Treinfhirs descend from the O'Kellys or O'Connors. I also don't think that the Kellys or Treinfhirs actually descend from Colla da Chrioch but rather that it was probably just created to link the different royal families together. I'm not suggesting that the Treinfhirs are descended from those Maddens but just showing that there is another genealogy for Treinfhirs out there. I'm also not saying that Treinfhirs don't descend from Maine Mór but just that it is a possibility to consider with SNP dating not contradicting or confirming descent from Maine Mór.

Cejo
06-02-2022, 11:04 PM
I had a thought, both the O'Kelly and MacEgan arms have as a central charge a silver castle, is heraldry echoing genetics? Fitzgerald has a red saltire, FitzMaurice has a black one.

It seems to me that similar to the written genealogies, any similarities in the heraldry likely echo the political situation, rather than genetics. It doesn't seem to me that heraldry should be any more reliable for determining genetic kinship than the old genealogies since they were subject to the same political forces. In fact heraldry might be less reliable, given that it came into use even later than surnames did.

It seems more likely that O'Kelly and MacEgan both feature a tower/castle (notably similar to that of Ui Maine's coat of arms) on their heraldry because they were associated with Ui Maine at the time that heraldry was adopted, not necessarily because they were kin.

GogMagog
06-03-2022, 02:11 PM
My reading of heraldry (and many years ago I looked at working in the College of Arms, London) is that a castle as a charge usually indicated that the family were making a statement "We own a castle". My Great Granny's lot, the Plunkets did so. In Scots heraldry it is far more clear cut. For example, a Campbell would have gyronny and a boars head (or variant) crest. The motto should reflect the position of cadet to chief.