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Muireagain
12-27-2018, 03:55 PM
It has been a number of years since SNP FGC6545 was identified with the Ui Maine line. However the results posted at ytree.org, only show two family groups: the O'Kellys (showing FGC6545 as the Ui Maine line) and the Trainors from the area associated with the Airgíalla. Are there other families that are FGC6545+, such as the Maddens, Larking, Egans?

kikkk
12-27-2018, 04:01 PM
A bit off-topic, but do you happen to know which line is associated with FGC7559?

Pallama
03-28-2019, 05:31 PM
It has been a number of years since SNP FGC6545 was identified with the Ui Maine line. However the results posted at ytree.org, only show two family groups: the O'Kellys (showing FGC6545 as the Ui Maine line) and the Trainors from the area associated with the Airgíalla. Are there other families that are FGC6545+, such as the Maddens, Larking, Egans?


From your use of last names, I surmise that you are already familiar with Alex Williamson's Big Tree project. The two clusters you describe (Ui Maine Treinfhir and Ceallaig are the dominant clusters for FGC6545. The other names you mention (as well as Pugh, Townsend Lloyd Dyer Heavey, Green, and Shannon) that descend from otherwise predominately Kelly clusters look like non-paternal events (adoption, name change, etc). It is ironic that the names linked to Threinfhir in the annals of the four masters (Braseal, Madden, etc) don't show up with much frequency. Obviously things can change with more Y-DNA tests on these names.

Muireagain
12-20-2019, 11:13 PM
I find no association of the family name Treindhir with the Ui Maine tribe? The surname is associated with the Airighialla. The O Ceallaigh, kings of Ui Maine, appear during Brian Boru’s conquest of Ireland. The O’Ceallaigh pedigree seems suspect.

FionnSneachta
12-21-2019, 01:04 AM
I find no association of the family name Treindhir with the Ui Maine tribe? The surname is associated with the Airighialla. The O Ceallaigh, kings of Ui Maine, appear during Brian Boru’s conquest of Ireland. The O’Ceallaigh pedigree seems suspect.

The O'Ceallaigh surname appears during Brian Boru's conquest of Ireland because that is around the time that surnames were introduced. Tadhg Mór was only the 2nd generation of O'Ceallaigh. The pedigrees for every surname go far back in time and therefore can't be fully relied upon for any surname. There isn't really any way to know for certain how accurate these pedigrees are. Uí Maine is mentioned in the Annals of the Four Masters as early as 531 AD. The Annals were written retrospectively but there isn't much else in terms of documentation for the time. The settlement of Maine Mór from Tyrone is recorded in the 'Life Of St. Grellan.' A poem written in 1347 addressed to chief Eoghan O'Madden gives an account of the chiefs of Uí Maine up to Gadhra (ancestor of Eoghan O'Madden) who succeeded Tadhg Mór. The pedigree is then given of Gadhra down to the then current chief Eoghan O'Madden.

So far, the pedigree would seem to be correct back to Domhnall Mór based on DNA testing with the Keogh tester allowing us to be quite certain that Domhnall Mór was positive for BY3437. Beyond that it is more uncertain since no other surnames have appeared except Traynor. The Traynor connection could be back from when the family were in Tyrone and therefore not descended from Maine Mór since the Traynors are largely based in the north.

It should be considered that even if the pedigree between Domhnall Mór and Maine Mór is incorrect, there should be other surnames appearing regardless since other lines would have taken up different surnames around the same time. Surnames were only introduced about 800 AD in Ireland so other surnames than Kelly should be appearing whether connected or not to the pedigree but they're absent. Until more surnames appear, I don't think that the pedigree can be considered incorrect. The BY3442 SNP is in a block of 7 SNPs that is between the BY3437 block and the block of SNPs that the Traynors descend from. Therefore, there is plenty of opportunity for branching in the future to split that block of 7 SNPs with other surnames.

If there is a problem with the pedigree, there could be a variety of reasons for this. The pedigree could have been falsified as you seem to be suggesting but there also could have been an NPE between Maine Mór and Domhnall Mór and there are lots of other possibilities to consider. However, I don't see why the pedigree would have been deliberately falsified when there were close connections with the O'Maddens who did act as chiefs of Uí Maine at different points in time.

Muireagain
12-24-2019, 05:16 AM
Taidg Chatha Briain O Ceallaigh reigns from 1001 to his death at Clontarf in 1014. (The length of his reign is given in the 1347 poem to O'Madden.)
his father Murchadh may or may not be the Murchadh king of Ui Maine recorded by the Annals of Inisfallen, AI962.3: Death of Murchad, king of Uí Maine. (AI records Ui Maine kings not found elsewhere.)
his grandfather Aeda is not recorded in the annals.
his great-grandfather Ceallaig is not recorded in the annals.
his gg-grandfather Fhindachtaig is not recorded in the annals.
his ggg-grandfather Ailella mac Finnrachtaig's death is record in U799.10: Ailill son of Innrechtach, king of Uí Maini of Connacht, dies.

Prior to the Tadhg O Ceallaigh, other ruling line from Maine Moir appear in the annals, however the families descended from these lines are M222>A738+.

The O'Ceallaigh does not have a strong grip of the throne of the Ui Maine until after Brian Boru. Brian Boru is also noted for placing the O'Neill over the Cenel Eoghain. Yet yDNA of the O'Neills of Ulster shown them to be unrelated to the Cenel Eoghain line.

FionnSneachta
12-24-2019, 08:50 PM
Taidg Chatha Briain O Ceallaigh reigns from 1001 to his death at Clontarf in 1014. (The length of his reign is given in the 1347 poem to O'Madden.)
his father Murchadh may or may not be the Murchadh king of Ui Maine recorded by the Annals of Inisfallen, AI962.3: Death of Murchad, king of Uí Maine. (AI records Ui Maine kings not found elsewhere.)
his grandfather Aeda is not recorded in the annals.
his great-grandfather Ceallaig is not recorded in the annals.
his gg-grandfather Fhindachtaig is not recorded in the annals.
his ggg-grandfather Ailella mac Finnrachtaig's death is record in U799.10: Ailill son of Innrechtach, king of Uí Maini of Connacht, dies.

Prior to the Tadhg O Ceallaigh, other ruling line from Maine Moir appear in the annals, however the families descended from these lines are M222>A738+.

The O'Ceallaigh does not have a strong grip of the throne of the Ui Maine until after Brian Boru. Brian Boru is also noted for placing the O'Neill over the Cenel Eoghain. Yet yDNA of the O'Neills of Ulster shown them to be unrelated to the Cenel Eoghain line.

The chief of Uí Maine was not a title that passed from father to son. Therefore, not all of Tadhg's direct paternal ancestors would be recorded in the Annals since they were not all chiefs. The Annals of the Four Masters records the death of Tadhg Mór's father Murchadh: "A.D. 960 - Murchadh, son of Aedh, lord of Hy-Many in Connaught, died."

It is stated in the Registry of Clonmacnoise that Ceallach (great grandfather of Tadhg Mór) granted several townlands to the Church of Clonmacnoise: "Kellagh, mac Finachta, mac Oililla, mac Innrachta, mac Fithiollaigh, mac Dluthaigh, mac Dithcolla, mac Eogain Finn, mac Cormaic, mac Cairbre Crum, from whom are the O'Kellies, bestowed of small cells" to various areas.

It is possible that the O'Kelly family of Uí Maine did become more prominent after Tadhg Mór fought alongside Brian Boru. However, that wouldn't be unusual. Brian Boru was High King of Ireland so naturally it may have brought Tadhg's descendants to greater prominence through association. It still happens today when someone gets in with someone high up the social ladder.

How can you be certain that those who are A738+ are the other Uí Maine families?

Muireagain
12-25-2019, 07:49 AM
Under Irish law, as recorded and present by MacNeill, Taidg Chatha Briain should not become king of the Ui Maine unless: his male line included a previous king of Ui Maine in the last three generation of his male line, i.e. his father, grandfather or great-grandfather had to have been king of Ui Maine. Now Ailella mac Finnrachtaig who is recorded in the annals as king of the Ui Maine is too far from Taidg Chatha Briain to allow him a legal claim the throne. Hence all focus is on the identity of Murchadh, those father is not identifed in the annals of Inisfallen. It is only an assumption that he can be identified with Murchadh mac Aedh, and this is what the four master did in the 17th century (much removed from the 9th century), so unless their evidence or any evidence can be presented we do not know for certain that the Murchadh who died circa 862 was Murchadh mac Aedh.

However legal rights in Ireland and elsewhere were frequently trumped by might, as can be seen in Brian Boru installation of the alien O'Neill over Cenel Eoghain.

The Ui Maine have been in Connacht since the 6th century if not earlier. Yet they are no other FGC6545+ families from Connacht (other than the O Ceallaigh). This seems very strange that there are no other Ui Maine families? Especially given the numerous families associated with the Ui Maine (shown below).

There is a problem identifying what dynastic surnames emerged from the Ui Maine for only a fraction are identified in the Book of Ui Maine. And can we accept identification such as Clann Aedagain as the MacEgans or Muintir Chobhthaigh as the O'Coffey or Munitir Lorcain as the O'Lorcain? What follows are the major branches of the Ui Maine from the Book of the Ui Maine:

Clann Cernaigh, gives rise to the O'Finain, O'Laidhin, O'Lachtnain, O'Conbhuidhi, O'Ullscaidh, O'Ceinneididh, O'Dorchaidhi, O'Sidhachain, O'Furadhain, O'Cuilein, O'Crabhadhain, per the Book of the Ui Maine
Clann Comain ??
Clann Cremthainn, identified with the O'Murcadhain and the O'Mugroin.
Ua Nadsluaigh, i. e. O'Finain, per the Book of the Ui Maine
Clann Cairpri Cruim, includes the O'Duibhginn
Clann Aedhagain, identified with the MacEgan
Clann Flaitheamhail Mic Dluthaigh ??
Ua Domhnaill ??
Clann Bresail, a quo the O'Domhnallains, per the Book of the Ui Maine
Clann Fiachra Finn ??
Clann Amlaibh ??
Cinel Critain ??
Ua Lomain ??
Cinel Fathaidh ??
Ui Cormaic of Maenmagh ??
Ui Duach ??
Cinel Aedha ??
Sil Anmchadha give rise to the Ua Draighnen, viz., Ceannfaeladh, Ua Churrain, Ua Flannchadha, Ua Cinaeith, O'Gledra and Muintir Chobhthaigh. From the Muintir Chobhthaigh are the O'Maddens and Muinter Chinaith, and Muinter Tresaigh, and Muinter Laeghaire Mic Dunadhaigh, Ua Flannchadha, Ua Gledraigh, Ua Currain, Ua Aedha, Ua Cairten, and Ua Cuagain. And the h-Ui Donngalaigh, Muinter Chonnagain, Mac Cadhusaighs, Ui Ainchine Mic Ceallaigh, Ua Bimnein Mic Muireadhaigh, Ua Tolairg Mic Neill, Ua Aithusa Mic Neill, Ua Brenainn, Muinter Chicharain, Muinter Rodaighi, Muinter Conghalaigh, and h-Ua Daigin. And Mac Uallachans, Ua Dubhlaich, Muinter Lorcain, Mac Cellaighs, Ua Finnachtaigh, Ua Coscraidh, Ua Maenaigh, Ua Connachtain, Ua Canain, and Ua Maelduibh.

As for A738 families the O'Coffey of south Roscommon can be identified as A738, the O Murchadhain of the lands of Clann Cremthainn are A738+, the Mac Aedhagain of east Galway are A738, the O Lorcain of southeast Galway are A738. All these families would normally associated with the Ui Maine, accept that they are A738 and not FGC6545 as mono-family of the O Ceallaigh. The different lines of these A738 families speak to a local diversity trending back to 6th century (based on the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of A738 is 1448.23 YBP (502 AD). with a 95% confidence interval is 228 AD to 796 AD.)

FionnSneachta
12-26-2019, 12:39 AM
Under Irish law, as recorded and present by MacNeill, Taidg Chatha Briain should not become king of the Ui Maine unless: his male line included a previous king of Ui Maine in the last three generation of his male line, i.e. his father, grandfather or great-grandfather had to have been king of Ui Maine. Now Ailella mac Finnrachtaig who is recorded in the annals as king of the Ui Maine is too far from Taidg Chatha Briain to allow him a legal claim the throne. Hence all focus is on the identity of Murchadh, those father is not identifed in the annals of Inisfallen. It is only an assumption that he can be identified with Murchadh mac Aedh, and this is what the four master did in the 17th century (much removed from the 9th century), so unless their evidence or any evidence can be presented we do not know for certain that the Murchadh who died circa 862 was Murchadh mac Aedh.

However legal rights in Ireland and elsewhere were frequently trumped by might, as can be seen in Brian Boru installation of the alien O'Neill over Cenel Eoghain.

The Ui Maine have been in Connacht since the 6th century if not earlier. Yet they are no other FGC6545+ families from Connacht (other than the O Ceallaigh). This seems very strange that there are no other Ui Maine families? Especially given the numerous families associated with the Ui Maine (shown below).

There is a problem identifying what dynastic surnames emerged from the Ui Maine for only a fraction are identified in the Book of Ui Maine. And can we accept identification such as Clann Aedagain as the MacEgans or Muintir Chobhthaigh as the O'Coffey or Munitir Lorcain as the O'Lorcain?

As for A738 families the O'Coffey of south Roscommon can be identified as A738, the O Murchadhain of the lands of Clann Cremthainn are A738+, the Mac Aedhagain of east Galway are A738, the O Lorcain of southeast Galway are A738. All these families would normally associated with the Ui Maine, accept that they are A738 and not FGC6545 as mono-family of the O Ceallaigh. The different lines of these A738 families speak to a local diversity trending back to 6th century (based on the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of A738 is 1448.23 YBP (502 AD). with a 95% confidence interval is 228 AD to 796 AD.)

The chiefs of Uí Maine did not all follow the rule that the 'male line included a previous king of Uí Maine in the last three generation of his male line, i.e. his father, grandfather or great-grandfather had to have been king of Ui Maine.' 21. Diarmaid O'Madden sl. 1135 was chief of Uí Maine. However, the last chief of Uí Maine in his line was his 2x great grandfather 17. Gadhra Mór who succeeded Tadhg Mór. The last ancestor before 17. Gadhra was his 3x great grandfather 12. Cobhthach. Before 12. Cobhthach, it was his 2x great grandfather 8. Eoghan Buac. Looking at the Kelly line, there are other examples. 14. Finnachta was chief but his last ancestor was his 4x great grandfather 8. Eoghan Finn. 23. Conchobhar O'Kelly sl. 1180 who was chief had his last ancestor as chief being his 3x great grandfather 18. Tadhg Mór.

Hypothetically, if it was a case that the chief of Uí Maine needed to have a great grandfather or closer to be chief, 18. Tadhg Mór's great grandfather 15. Ceallach is recorded as chief of Uí Maine as was Ceallach's father 14. Finnachta. I'm not sure why out of all the dates and statements provided by the Annals of the Four Masters that it is Murchadh who died in 960 and his father being called into question in particular. If it was a case that Brian Boru made the O'Kellys chiefs of Uí Maine, there were still O'Maddens becoming chiefs of Uí Maine after the Battle of Clontarf. It's not as if the O'Kellys with the aid of Brian completely supplanted the other families going by that. Brian Boru was born after Ceallach died and Murchadh (Tadhg Mór's father) had died before Brian Boru started trying to extend his authority.

I understand that it is unusual that no other FGC6545+ families have appeared in Connacht. However, as said previously, it is true that other surnames should be appearing whether connected with Uí Maine or not. Unless other surnames of other family groups start appearing that are completely unrelated, I think that it's too soon to say there is something off about the O'Kelly pedigree going back to Maine Mór. The O'Kellys are hardly the only line of that family group to survive with no other BY3442+ surnames existing. They're not some group that disppeared off the face of the earth for generations and only returned around the time of Brian Boru.

Looking at the A738+ surnames, there are a lot that I would not associate with Connacht. Dunne in particular is one that I'd associate with Leinster. I'm not very familiar with the Guinn surname but it seems to be associated with the Midlands. Also not very familiar with Knowles but seems to be associated with the Midlands as well. The Davis surname is assocaited with Wexford, Fermanagh and Dublin. Gallagher is associated with Donegal. There are Larkins associated with Leinster, Oriel, Uí Maine, Meath and Tipperary so it is not exclusive to Connacht. There are different origins for Coffey including Tipperary, Kerry, another Galway family, Cork, Uí Maine, Mayo, Westmeath, and Derry. There are various origins for Martin. The McGrails were a Gallowglass warrior family who established themselves in Counties Mayo and Leitrim. Heaneys are associated with Mayo and Limerick. The Egan surname is associated with Uí Maine, Monaghan, Armagh and Offaly. Morgan is associated with Westmeath, Longford, Offaly, and Uí Maine. To me looking at the pattern of the surnames, they seem to have a common location around the Midlands extending south to Limerick and north to Fermanagh.

Whatever the case may be, the O'Kellys were chiefs of Uí Maine, at the very least, from the 1000s up to the 1600s. I don't think that they can be dismissed as not being the 'real' Uí Maine at that stage. It may be a case that other families were also of Uí Maine that aren't FGC6545+ but, if that is the case, it doesn't make one the real Uí Maine over the other. Both groups would have ruled Uí Maine at different stages.

Colk
01-01-2020, 08:18 PM
FionnSneachta, Looking at the A738+ surnames, there are a lot that I would not associate with Connacht. Dunne in particular is one that I'd associate with Leinster. I'm not very familiar with the Guinn surname but it seems to be associated with the Midlands. Also not very familiar with Knowles but seems to be associated with the Midlands as well. The Davis surname is assocaited with Wexford, Fermanagh and Dublin. Gallagher is associated with Donegal. There are Larkins associated with Leinster, Oriel, Uí Maine, Meath and Tipperary so it is not exclusive to Connacht. There are different origins for Coffey including Tipperary, Kerry, another Galway family, Cork, Uí Maine, Mayo, Westmeath, and Derry. There are various origins for Martin. The McGrails were a Gallowglass warrior family who established themselves in Counties Mayo and Leitrim. Heaneys are associated with Mayo and Limerick. The Egan surname is associated with Uí Maine, Monaghan, Armagh and Offaly. Morgan is associated with Westmeath, Longford, Offaly, and Uí Maine. To me looking at the pattern of the surnames, they seem to have a common location around the Midlands extending south to Limerick and north to Fermanagh.
Interesting comment on the Egans as on the Clan Egan DNA Project the Group 2 (Egan & Keegan) are in number 50% of the Group and if SNP tested R-BY198+. That is Ui Briuin.
Also found this interesting in relation to Group 4 - http://curleysurname.weebly.com/dna-results.html

GogMagog
01-03-2020, 03:55 PM
Group 2 of Egan would be of the royal line.

Muireagain
01-03-2020, 11:15 PM
[QUOTE=Looking at the A738+ surnames, there are a lot that I would not associate with Connacht. Dunne in particular is one that I'd associate with Leinster. I'm not very familiar with the Guinn surname but it seems to be associated with the Midlands. Also not very familiar with Knowles but seems to be associated with the Midlands as well. The Davis surname is assocaited with Wexford, Fermanagh and Dublin. Gallagher is associated with Donegal. There are Larkins associated with Leinster, Oriel, Uí Maine, Meath and Tipperary so it is not exclusive to Connacht. There are different origins for Coffey including Tipperary, Kerry, another Galway family, Cork, Uí Maine, Mayo, Westmeath, and Derry. There are various origins for Martin. The McGrails were a Gallowglass warrior family who established themselves in Counties Mayo and Leitrim. Heaneys are associated with Mayo and Limerick. The Egan surname is associated with Uí Maine, Monaghan, Armagh and Offaly. Morgan is associated with Westmeath, Longford, Offaly, and Uí Maine. To me looking at the pattern of the surnames, they seem to have a common location around the Midlands extending south to Limerick and north to Fermanagh.

Whatever the case may be, the O'Kellys were chiefs of Uí Maine, at the very least, from the 1000s up to the 1600s. I don't think that they can be dismissed as not being the 'real' Uí Maine at that stage. It may be a case that other families were also of Uí Maine that aren't FGC6545+ but, if that is the case, it doesn't make one the real Uí Maine over the other. Both groups would have ruled Uí Maine at different stages.[/QUOTE]

Identifying surnames with certain areas of Ireland may be what the Irish surname guide books do. However, a review of the Irish medieval pedigrees shows - that many minor families across Ireland had the same surnames as the more famous families that are remembered today. Hence the exercise is limited. It is from the correlation between surname yDNA (i.e., the septs of the tribe) and the tribal pedigrees that claim them. This identifications allows with some certainty in identifying the tribe that the yDNA belongs to. For the example the close association between the M222+ MacLochlanns and O’Donnellys, plus Cenel Eoghain sept surnames (such as O’Gormley), allows for the identification of the yDNA of old royal lines of Cenel Eoghain line.

What I argue is that minor families that came to be Ui Maine, share BY198/A725, the O Ceallaigh are out on a limb:
The BY198/A725 Larkins trace themselves to Ui Maine lands of SE Galway – see https://jogg.info/pages/62/files/Larkin.pdf
The BY198/A725 Egan are the Egan Group 2, which GogMagog points out are now identified as “the royal (chiefly) line of Egans of Ui Maine”.
The BY198/A725 Coffey form group B & C, i.e., those from Meath/Westmeaht/Rosccommon http://www.coffey.ws/FamilyTree/DNA/P1F4.htm
http://www.coffey.ws/familytree/dna/CousinsData.pdf hence strongly assoicating themselves with the O'Coffey of the Ui Maine lands of Co. Rosccommon
The BY198/A725 Morgan include the Morgans of Cornpark, as well other lines from parish of Killian and Co. Roscommon. All within Ui Maine lands.

Hence it is a fact that B198/A725 clusters in the Ui Maine lands. And does so soon after assumption of dynastic surnames in the 11th century.

However, there is another clue that B198/A725 are local to these Ui Maine lands. For FamilyTreeDNA has now identified a new SNP (A18726) under S660/DF105, that combines the three former separate branches: A259 (the Ui Briuin families), BY198/A725 (Ui Maine? families) and an obscure line R-A18726 (the Keigs on the Isle of Mann).

The Ui Maine lands sit between branches of A259+ families, i.e., the Uí Briúin Aí families in northern Roscommon and the Uí Briúin Seóla families, located along the east shore of Lough Corrib in County Galway. In fact the A18726 line dominates southern Connacht.

The Ui Maine of Connacht are cited in the annals as existing in the 6th century AD. The same cannot be said for the O Ceallaigh yDNA line.

Using the yDNA logic: given that the Larkins and Egans come from in the same area. It likely that their common ancestor also lived in the same area. The Larkin/Egan common ancestor, before the split, lived approximately between 502 AD and 706 AD. And per Occam’s Razor is simpler to believe BY198/A725 represents the original Ui Maine population than the O’Ceallaigh who are simply outsiders. Who may have been raisen to power by Brian Boru, as he did elsewhere.

BY198/A725: “Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 1448.23 YBP (502 AD). The 95% confidence interval is 228 AD to 796 AD.”

FGC40502: “Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 1244.14 YBP (706 AD). The 95% confidence interval is 370 AD to 1061 AD.”

(What I have not consulted are the early 11th century Mac Liag’s praise poems to Tadg O Ceallaigh.)

FionnSneachta
01-04-2020, 04:54 PM
However, there is another clue that B198/A725 are local to these Ui Maine lands. For FamilyTreeDNA has now identified a new SNP (A18726) under S660/DF105, that combines the three former separate branches: A259 (the Ui Briuin families), BY198/A725 (Ui Maine? families) and an obscure line R-A18726 (the Keigs on the Isle of Mann).

The Ui Maine lands sit between branches of A259+ families, i.e., the Uí Briúin Aí families in northern Roscommon and the Uí Briúin Seóla families, located along the east shore of Lough Corrib in County Galway. In fact the A18726 line dominates southern Connacht.

The Ui Maine of Connacht are cited in the annals as existing in the 6th century AD. The same cannot be said for the O Ceallaigh yDNA line.

Using the yDNA logic: given that the Larkins and Egans come from in the same area. It likely that their common ancestor also lived in the same area. The Larkin/Egan common ancestor, before the split, lived approximately between 502 AD and 706 AD. And per Occam’s Razor is simpler to believe BY198/A725 represents the original Ui Maine population than the O’Ceallaigh who are simply outsiders. Who may have been raisen to power by Brian Boru, as he did elsewhere.

BY198/A725: “Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 1448.23 YBP (502 AD). The 95% confidence interval is 228 AD to 796 AD.”

FGC40502: “Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 1244.14 YBP (706 AD). The 95% confidence interval is 370 AD to 1061 AD.”

(What I have not consulted are the early 11th century Mac Liag’s praise poems to Tadg O Ceallaigh.)

You are saying that the SNP A18726 linking Uí Maine, Uí Briuin and the Keigs is a clue since it shows that they lived around the one area but Maine Mór is not supposed to have been from Connacht. He was supposed have been from Tyrone originally. I don't think that the Uí Maine family group should be closely linked to other Connacht royal families.

Maine Mór is supposed to have lived around the 4th century so yes, the family of Uí Maine should have been present in Connacht by the 6th century. However, there is nothing to say that the O'Ceallaigh Y-DNA line was in not Connacht in the 6th century also. As I have said, there are no DNA connections to other surnames around this time to support or refute the presence of this Y-DNA line in Connacht. The only other surname is Traynor which could be from when the line was in Ulster since there are a good few SNPs separting the Kellys from the Traynors. The Uí Maine family group are supposed to be outsiders to Connacht since Maine Mór was originally from Tyrone.

I'm not saying that you're wrong on this. I do understand that Egan, Larkin and Coffey are associated with Uí Maine. You could be right but, as I've said, I would just be interested to see what other surnames match with the Kellys who share an ancestor from before the introduction of surnames before making definite conclusions. I also don't see why a possibility of an NPE isn't being considered rather than some randomer getting in Brian Boru's good books so he made them head of a kingdom. Ceallach was recorded as a chief before Brian Boru's time. The article on the Larkins was written in 2010 before there had been much SNP testing and there has been much more testing since then as can be seen in my surname group: https://imgur.com/a/bZ96txw At the moment, we're just going around in circles.

Colk
01-05-2020, 06:44 AM
Cheers Muireagean and FionnScheachta good discussion. Happy NY.

GogMagog
01-05-2020, 03:52 PM
Keig, Isle of Man, MacKeegan?

Muireagain
01-08-2020, 12:15 AM
In MacLaig’s early 11th century poem starting “The blessing of Abruin be upon Brighit” or “bennacht Abruin ar Brighit". https://archive.org/details/zeitschriftfrce00meesgoog/page/n236. It names early 11th century members of Ui Maine that recovered his cattle form a raid across the Shannon. It names a Tadg mac Éidigáin.

In the paper “In the shadow of a high-king’: Tadg Mór Ua Cellaig and the Battle of Clontarf”, Dr Joe Mannion writes:
“Mentioned in one of these poems are leading individuals such asGadra, king of Síl Anmchada, Tadg mac Éidigáin of Clann Diarmada, Tadg Echtge UaConaill of Cenél Fhéichín, Aed Ua Donnchada of Uí Cormaic Máenmaige, and an unidentified Cathal amuigh a Máenmach”

He has connected “Tadg mac Éidigáin” with “Clann Diarmada”. If so, it seems Tadg could well be a son of Aodhagain of Clann Diarmada, i.e., the founder of the MacEgans.

(there is also the line: “Glantar sciath Éidigháin úais, nIr Díall éceandáil da éis, ní targa a tír Maine meand óglach bud fear tar a eis.” In another poem mentioned below.)
There is another of MacLaig’s poem that I am searching for: “Let the King of Gaela’s shield be burnished”. This in it’s opening line tells that Tadhg O Ceallaigh was given the honory tile of ‘king of Gaela’, which is mentioned in the Leabhar Na gCeart:

BOUND IS THE KING OF CRUACHAIN, conceal it not,
To give two score vats at the banquet,
And not to depart from them there
From the noble king of Eire.

The king of Gaela of substance
Is entitled to his return now,
Three score cows, two hundred steeds,
Four rings,—it is no bad award.

Four drinking-horns on which is gold,
Which he brings with him to the banquet.
And to leave them in the west, in his houte,
With the prince of Cruuchain of the host.

Four shields of red color.
Four helmets of equal color.
Four coats of mail after them.
Four lances for valiant combat.

It is one of his restrictions that Cruachain should be thrice ravaged,
It is his prerogative to have a fleet on Loch Rib;
If he observe each one of these,
He shall usually obtain Teamhair TEAMHAIR.

[Kingdom of Geala is sperate to the kingship of the Ui Maine, how have a separate section below]

ENTITLED is the king of great Ui Maine
To four drinking-horns of them for the banquet,
To twenty cows and twenty steeds,
To two hundred suits of clothes,—not a false award.

Entitled is the king of Ui Fiachrach Fionn
To four ships with a boat,
Thirty women, large [and] hardy,
And three drinking horns.

Entitled is the king of the Three Tuatha,
Although the ignorant know it not,
To twenty beeves and twenty pigs,
Twenty tinnes (salted pigs) for his brave people.

Entitled is the king of Luighne' to reward,
To four shields for deeds of valor,
To four tunics with red gold,
To four ships, not a bad gift.

They are not entitled to more than this
From the king of Cruachain, the warrior;
All are thus mutually bound,
And to repair to Teamhair.

ENTITLED is the king of Midhe (Meath) the horseman
From the king of Eire of high fame
To seven plough-yokes, which plough the land,
And to seven score flocks.

(I believe these kings are named in the MacLiag poem “Let the King of Gaela’s shield be burnished”?)

However, as John O'Donovan identifies Gaela as being located in Ui Maine terrority???

John O'Donovan’s note : “Gaela, .i.e, the king of Connacht who is called of Geala, the seat of the O’Lomain in Ui Maine. This name is now obsolete, but it appears from several references to it that it was near Loch Riach. nr Loughea, in Galway. See Tribes and Customs of Ui Maine, page 34, note ', and Annals of the Four Masters at the year 949.”

“M949.12 A victory was gained over the men of Muscraighe-thire by Ua-Lomain-Gaela.”
“U916.4 … Conligán son of Draignén, chief of Uí Lomáin Gaela, and … died.”

This note reads: “O'Lomain.—This seems to be the name Anglicised Lomond, but the Editor is not aware that it is at the present extant in Hy-Many, where a family or tribe of the name were no doubt formerly, for we learn from the Annals of the Four Masters, at the year 949, that O'Lomain, of Geala, , defeated the inhabitants of Ormond in that year. There is another branch of the family settled in Finnabhair, now Finnure in the barony of Leitrim, and county Galway. – See Map”

There pedigree is given in the “The Tribes and Customs of the Hy-Maine”, translated by John O'Donovan:

“Now THE SIL MAELANFAIDH.—PEDIGREE OF O'LOMAIN.
Ruaidhri, son of Coinnligan, son of Draighnen, son of Eochaidh, son of Connmach, son of Forbasach, son of Coidbeanach, son of Rechtagan, son of Odhran, son of Maelenaidh, son of Eochaidh, son of Ainmire, son of Aengus Loman, son of Dallan, son of Bresal, son of Maine Mor, a quo h-Ui Maine. Aengus Loman, the son of Dallan, had five sons, viz., two Eochaidhs, Ainmire, Carrthach, and Fathach; ut poeta dirit: ‘Eochaidh, Eochaidh, Ainmire, Carrthach, the beautiful, fair branch, A race of brothers I have enumerated And Fathach Finn were the sons of Aengus.’”

(I note Aengus Loman would have lived too early to be an originator for an 11th century Irish dynastic surname.)

What is the importance of Geala?

Colk
01-16-2020, 11:04 PM
Hi GogMagog, Interesting post about the Keig of Island of Man.
#742967 uploaded to YFull, very interesting with my most SNP matches being with Keig x 2 Isle of Man and the other top matches being Ireland = Galway, Donegal and Antrim. Also Wales and Scotland.

GogMagog
01-19-2020, 03:19 PM
Hi Colk, I am going a bit cross eyed, my latest DNA test (supposedly the most accurate) has 100% Irish and of that all confined to a few counties. Thought some Scots or "other" would emerge!

Colk
01-25-2020, 06:33 AM
Hi GogMagog, what was your latest testing, I have done BigY700 and am waiting on Ancestry. R-FT94609, downstream R-BY198. Cheers.

GogMagog
04-05-2020, 08:20 AM
Ancestry.

Colk
04-05-2020, 09:11 PM
Hi GogMagog, my Ancestry has me at 66% Irish, 34% England, Wales and Northern Europe. Not surprised about the Irish bit as 7 of my 8 Paternal GGgrandparents were Irish born. From Galway to Meath across the midlands. YFull now has me sitting at R-BY198, where FTDNA has me below R-BY198 at R-FT96409. Cheers mate.

GogMagog
04-06-2020, 02:08 PM
I am BY198, originally Egan. I am A8815 neg however.

Colk
04-06-2020, 10:39 PM
Hi GogMagog
YFull YTree v8.04.00 View: classicscientific new YTree statisticsArchive SEARCH
HomeA0-TA1A1bBTCTCFFGHIJKHIJKIJKKK2K2bPP1P-P337P-P226RR-Y482R1R1bR-L754R-L389R-P297R-M269R-L23R-L51R-L52R-L151R-P312R-S461R-L21R-DF13R-DF49R-Z2980R-Z2976R-DF23R-Z2961R-S645R-Z2965R-M222R-Y2605R-Y2841R-DF104R-DF109R-A18726

Simple chart
Normal size Zoom out
R-BY198 > R-FGC40507 > R-Y66755
R-BY198 > R-A15865 > R-A15877 > R-A17850
Cheers

GogMagog
04-08-2020, 01:59 PM
Ancestry, I am 100% Irish, South Ulster, East Connaught and Leinster which accords with my paper trail and recent family history. I'll look up that Y tree ref later!