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JerryS.
01-01-2019, 12:27 AM
forgive me if this has been covered, I didn't find it in any title search here.

my maternal grandma always said they were Scotch/Irish which would make me about 1/4 of the same. I took a recent ethnicity test from a new company Ethnogenes (some say they are scammers)… Irish was a very low showing of 3%, Scottish did show up as 11% from the east coast regions of Scotland, I got some unexpected 5.6% Scandinavian as well, but this makes sense considering the locations represented in Scotland. I imagine the balance would be English.


so, leaving the results from this new company aside, what is the definition of Scotch/Irish from the learned folks here? Thanks.

spruithean
01-01-2019, 12:58 AM
The Scots-Irish are also often referred to as Ulster-Scots or Scots in Ulster. They aren't "Irish", in the sense of indigenous Gaelic Irish, they arrived sometime during the Plantation Era where many Scots and Northern English people, usually Protestants, settled in the north of Ireland. Many Ulster-Scots families emigrated to the the Americas due to various reasons in Ireland.

EDIT: Please note, I know that a lot of these terms, opinions, etc can be very divisive for certain groups in Ireland to this day and I in no way intend to offend or cause a forum war.

msmarjoribanks
01-01-2019, 01:00 AM
It really depends on context. It typically means immigrants to the US who were Protestant Irish or Ulster Scots or just from Ulster, often broadly grouping pre Famine Irish immigrants. Typically called just Irish until significant immigration of Catholic Irish occurred in the mid 1800s. My first exposure to the term was Gone With The Wind, where it's used negatively, though, and they were a group that tended to settle in the frontier areas in America in the 1700s/early 1800s.

My mom is on paper about 25% Scots Irish (Protestant Irish who came here in the 1700s and in a couple of cases the 1800s, and to the extent I've managed to trace it back it does seem to be from Ulster). Despite that, it often doesn't show up -- I get no Irish or Scottish at LivingDNA, and unclear results at 23andMe, but 25% at Ancestry (about half of that is likely Welsh), and my mom gets 50% Irish, etc. at MyHeritage and no English.

The names of my Irish immigrant families seem to be basically Scots or English or specifically Ulster. That will vary quite a bit depending on your family surnames. My dad has just one such family and in that case I don't really count it since it came in the 1600s and we can trace it to Yorkshire before, so likely no real Irish connections.

JerryS.
01-01-2019, 01:03 AM
The Scots-Irish are also often referred to as Ulster-Scots or Scots in Ulster. They aren't Irish, in the sense of indigenous Gaelic Irish, they arrived sometime during the Plantation Era where many Scots and Northern English people, usually Protestants, settled in the north of Ireland. Many Ulster-Scots families emigrated to the the Americas due to various reasons in Ireland.

Thanks. I was able to trace my earliest Scottish ancestor to 1862 when he came to The States. The rest with Scottish/Irish surnames just show up on American census documents as coming from Canada. surnames were Andrews, Alexander, O'Day, O'Neal, and McKinney.

spruithean
01-01-2019, 01:06 AM
Names like Alexander and Andrews would likely be Scottish or English while O'Day and O'Neal would be Irish. McKinney could be either.

There are a lot of areas in North America where Ulster-Scots (Scots-Irish, Ulster Protestants, Irish Protestants, etc whichever term one prefers) settled. Quite a few locations in Nova Scotia, Ontario, early colonial days of the Appalachian states, etc.

Were your Alexanders from PEI?

JerryS.
01-01-2019, 01:17 AM
Names like Alexander and Andrews would likely be Scottish or English while O'Day and O'Neal would be Irish. McKinney could be either.

There are a lot of areas in North America where Ulster-Scots (Scots-Irish, Ulster Protestants, Irish Protestants, etc whichever term one prefers) settled. Quite a few locations in Nova Scotia, Ontario, early colonial days of the Appalachian states, etc.

Were your Alexanders from PEI?

Andrews first landed in PEI then came to Maine. Alexander shows up in New York then Indiana and Illinois. O'Day was Ontario Canada then to Cleveland Ohio. all were mid to late 1800s. McKinney and O'Neal I haven't been able to trace beyond the late 1800s already in The States.

*** edit. I figure the Irish name stayed around but was diluted with Scottish.

msmarjoribanks
01-01-2019, 03:04 AM
My Scots-Irish are Glass (Scottish name in this case). Also names Craney, Allen, Morewood, Givens. Kirk but can trace it back to Church.

Nqp15hhu
01-04-2019, 04:22 AM
People from Northern Ireland who are ethnically Scottish.

Dave-V
01-04-2019, 02:14 PM
From what I’ve read, the term “Scots-Irish” was popularized in the US in the latter part of the 1800s by the descendants of Irish immigrants from the 1700s and very early 1800s who were for the most part Ulster Scots. They were differentiating themselves from the waves of Irish immigrants after the Great Famine who were on average Catholic (and often poorer). Since it was the age of “Irish need not apply” signs, the families of earlier Irish immigrants wanted to draw a distinction.

Like the others I’m not trying to make judgements here, just repeating the social analysis I’ve come across.

msmarjoribanks
01-04-2019, 03:50 PM
Yeah, in the US it is broader than Ulster Scots. It's also has been used negatively historically even though it probably was originally coined to distinguish between them and (at the time) more disfavored Irish immigrants.

There are lots of books about them. I've read this one: https://www.uncpress.org/book/9780807842591/the-scotch-irish/

Jim Webb wrote one called Born Fighting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_Fighting

JerryS.
01-05-2019, 09:50 PM
thanks to all for their contribution. I'd rather not rely on unvetted Wikipedia definitions as my only source..... I have to wonder how much English is part of my "Scotch/Irish"... probably only 5% or so...

...and on second look, my Scandinavian category is lower because this company puts my 1.8% Danish as Western European, but since I am part North German I guess that still fits.

thanks again.

Nqp15hhu
01-05-2019, 10:38 PM
I rely on Genetic Communities.

JerryS.
01-06-2019, 08:08 AM
I rely on Genetic Communities.

what is a genetic community?

alan
01-06-2019, 02:17 PM
However it should be noted that a dignificant minority of Ulster Protestants had and have Gaelic native Irish ancestry. It was a culture or community and religion not a closed caste and some native Irish were also absorbed into it. Surnames sometimes show that for sure but I suspect it was even more common for native Irish Gaelic women to cross into the Ulster Protestant community because that generally meant better economic status.

spruithean
01-06-2019, 03:10 PM
However it should be noted that a dignificant minority of Ulster Protestants had and have Gaelic native Irish ancestry. It was a culture or community and religion not a closed caste and some native Irish were also absorbed into it. Surnames sometimes show that for sure but I suspect it was even more common for native Irish Gaelic women to cross into the Ulster Protestant community because that generally meant better economic status.

Indeed! I've found a number probable native Gaelic Irish ancestors who've married into Ulster-Scots families. I think some degree of native Gaelic Irish did become Protestant either through intermarriage or by some "pressure".

JerryS.
01-06-2019, 03:49 PM
However it should be noted that a dignificant minority of Ulster Protestants had and have Gaelic native Irish ancestry. It was a culture or community and religion not a closed caste and some native Irish were also absorbed into it. Surnames sometimes show that for sure but I suspect it was even more common for native Irish Gaelic women to cross into the Ulster Protestant community because that generally meant better economic status.

ironically the O'Day and O'Neal were women that married Scotsmen.

Nqp15hhu
01-06-2019, 04:07 PM
Indeed! I've found a number probable native Gaelic Irish ancestors who've married into Ulster-Scots families. I think some degree of native Gaelic Irish did become Protestant either through intermarriage or by some "pressure".

Definitely. There are a lot of Protestants in my area with Irish surnames.

Nqp15hhu
01-06-2019, 04:11 PM
what is a genetic community?
On Ancestrydna it is an area where your family lived hundreds of years ago.

msmarjoribanks
01-06-2019, 05:47 PM
Indeed! I've found a number probable native Gaelic Irish ancestors who've married into Ulster-Scots families. I think some degree of native Gaelic Irish did become Protestant either through intermarriage or by some "pressure".

Especially true when talking about the group known as "Scotch-Irish" in the US, which was more diverse than generally recognized. Would not have been uncommon for people to become Protestant in the US either (especially in the frontier areas where many settled due to land availability), and to have no clue of older origins.

sktibo
01-06-2019, 06:45 PM
Indeed! I've found a number probable native Gaelic Irish ancestors who've married into Ulster-Scots families. I think some degree of native Gaelic Irish did become Protestant either through intermarriage or by some "pressure".

There might be hope of some native Irish ancestry in my family after all then... Come on DNA relative matches...

Saetro
01-06-2019, 09:43 PM
what is a genetic community?

An absolutely brilliant tool for people in the USA with ancestors from the British Isles.
With qualifications for other cases.
It collects people with similar DNA and looks at where their family trees said where they came from.
With minimal German uptake and often non-specific origins given on immigration documents, German ancestry is usually poorly served.
My Cornish are too, as most people have just entered "England" for their ancestor's Cornish origins.

Sometimes it can be eerily accurate.
At other times off. At such times it usually forbears to make a prediction, so you should be able to trust what it says. Enough to point you in a direction for documentary or other research.

msmarjoribanks
01-06-2019, 10:14 PM
I think a lot of people in the US don't get these. I don't know if it's that we are too mixed or the ancestry is too far back or what.

I don't get any, including for my relatively recent Swedish ancestry. (G grandmother was 100% Swedish, both of her parents were from the same area.) I'm less bothered by not getting any British Isles (although I'm more English than Swedish), since my locations are quite mixed.

It's also likely that there aren't enough matches from people who are known to come from the same areas, since many Americans of English ancestry are of colonial ancestry and don't have the locations on their trees or have a huge mix of locations so it's not clear what the commonalities are.

fridurich
01-07-2019, 05:02 AM
However it should be noted that a dignificant minority of Ulster Protestants had and have Gaelic native Irish ancestry. It was a culture or community and religion not a closed caste and some native Irish were also absorbed into it. Surnames sometimes show that for sure but I suspect it was even more common for native Irish Gaelic women to cross into the Ulster Protestant community because that generally meant better economic status.



Alan, you make some good points. Even though I’m an American, I have my own experience with someone who lived in the past, was born in County Cavan, Ireland about 1774, was Protestant, and had an English looking name. This man was Henry Hare, and with a name like that, and considering he was a Protestant, he would have to be English wouldn’t he (a question posed to this thread in general)?

He and his family immigrated to Ontario, Canada where most of his descendants live today. A book was written about him and his descendants (I have the book, but don’t know where it is at the moment.) by a descendant of his.

Going on something I read in the book, and what I read elsewhere, it sounds like some, or many of Henry Hare’s descendants believed they were of English descent.

Then one day, a descendant of Henry Hare took a ydna test, and over time submitted to more ydna testing. The descendant turned out confirmed for M222...>S588>S603>BY3347...
>BY18204

My last name is O’Hair. Another one of my O’Hair 4th cousins took the Big Y 500 recently. So my two 4th cousins and I also were confirmed for M222...>S588>S603>BY3347...
>BY18204 !!!

BY18204 used to be one of my O’Hair distant cousins private snps, but now my other O’Hair 4th cousin, myself, and Mr. Hare are all confirmed for it, so it is an official snp now. My O’Hair cousins and myself are each descended from a different son of Michael O’Hair/O’Hare born 1749 and from County Down, in Northern Ireland. I didnt take the Big Y, but was confirmed for all of the above snps, except S603, through a ftdna m222 snp pack. All three of us O’Hairs and Mr. Hare were confirmed for S603 through Yseq. Also, I and Mr. Hare were confirmed for BY18204 through Yseq, while my O’Hair cousins were confirmed for it through the Big Y and/or Big Y 500 tests.

Also, Mr. Hare is a close Ystr match to one of my cousins and I, and Mr.
Hare is a little more distant match to my other cousin on their ystr match.

Henry Hare’s home, County Cavan, is only 3 counties from County Down. So, I think Henry Hare’s family were originally O’Hare’s, and probably came from the Counties Down/Armagh area, for some reason dropped the O’ from their surname, moved to Cavan, and at some point converted to Protestantism.

It is said my ancestor Michael O’Hair brought a Catholic Bible with him. He first appears in Augusta County, Virginia in 1762 right in the middle of a bunch of Ulster Scot settlers, but their was a minority of settlers there who had Gaelic Irish surnames. (I have quite a bit of Ulster Scot ancestry myself.) A few even had the O’ prefix in their name. Michael’s two confirmed marriages (at different times of course) appear to be to Protestants with English looking surnames, and today almost all of his descendants are Protestant. I am Protestant as well. As far as I know, Virginia at the time had no Catholic churches.

So, this is a real life example of someone, Henry Hare, whose neighbors and outsiders could consider him to be of English lineage because of his surname and religion (especially if Mr. Hare’s family didn’t speak any Irish or weren’t interested in teaching it to future generations, and if they never mentioned any Irish ancestry they had).

So how many more examples like the above are there? Also, I believe that there were Catholic women who married Protestant men, but I also believe the number of Catholic Irish who converted to Protestantism is much greater than what was thought. (Although I think the majority of Irish Catholics remained Catholic.). I think many/most of these converts dropped the Mac and O’ over time, but especially the O’. Roger Blaney in his book, talks about this and mentions the names on the membership rolls of some Presbyterian churches in Northern Ireland. Also I think the Irish converts, often intermarried with Protestants of Scottish or English descent. Moreover, I think as the generations rolled by, a large number of their descendants would have no memory of any Irish origins. Sometimes their Irish Gaelic surnames were so anglicized they bore little resemblance to the original surname.

Additionally, I think there was occasional conversion from Protestantism to Catholicism, but not near as much as the other way around.

In the Irish Dna Atlas Project test results, they mentioned that there were 3 British clusters, and one Gaelic Irish cluster in Northern Ireland.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4

If we click on Results and scroll down to Admixture within Ireland, the authors say that there was a significant amount of admixture in all 3 British clusters with the Irish and with admixture dates that ranged from the 17th to 18th Centuries. They then talk about the percentage of Irish clusters and British clusters in each of the 3 Northern Irish British clusters. If I’m interpreting it right, it sounds like there is more than a minority of Northern Ireland Protestants today that have some Gaelic Irish ancestry. Please look at their percentages and see if I have misinterpreted it, because I can certainly be mistaken. What do you think the percentages show?

Kind Regards

Nqp15hhu
01-07-2019, 05:49 AM
Protestants in Northern Ireland drop the O’ or Mc from Irish surnames. This is quite common and easy to spot. For ex, McLaughlin becomes Laughlin or O’Niell becomes Niell and O’Doherty becomes Dougherty.

Some also add mc to their name. E.g Mullan becomes McMullan.

The degree of mixing will depend on the area. And I notice this in my matches.It would be interesting to compare an aggregate of Protestants from Bangor to an aggregate from Tyrone for example.

My matches have about 60-75% Ireland and Scotland. I myself was shocked at how little GB dna I apparently have.

I don’t think my ancestry is as Irish as it appears on the results.

Garvan
01-07-2019, 08:15 AM
The O or mac in Irish names was also dropped in many families the South of Ireland from the mid 1800’s onward, and became popular again in the early 1900’s. I drop the O from my name when it is convenient.

FionnSneachta
01-07-2019, 10:58 AM
The O or mac in Irish names was also dropped in many families the South of Ireland from the mid 1800’s onward, and became popular again in the early 1900’s. I drop the O from my name when it is convenient.

Exactly. The only surnames in my family with 'Mc' or 'O' are McDermott and McDonagh which would just look strange without the 'Mc'. Going back to the early 1800s even, these are the only surnames with a prefix in my family. It wasn't only people who converted that dropped the prefix. Even back to the 1600s when looking at the Down Survey, it would appear that the O' prefix was already starting to be dropped from surnames.

Nqp15hhu
01-07-2019, 02:01 PM
Well that is what Protestants do in Northern Ireland. It is not a lie.

spruithean
01-07-2019, 02:30 PM
One of my Y-DNA matches and the only one not within my known family tree has roots in Co. Down and the only difference in our surnames is my family seems to have kept the Mac/Mc while his dropped it at some point. I don't think the Mac/Mc dropping is restricted to just the Gaelic Irish. But then again it could be reversed and it could have been my specific branch that jumped over to Scotland and added Mac/Mc...

FionnSneachta
01-07-2019, 04:33 PM
Well that is what Protestants do in Northern Ireland. It is not a lie.

I'm not saying that it's a lie. I'm just saying that many Catholics dropped the prefix as well, in the south anyway. Maybe in the north, Catholics tended to keep the O' and Mc more than in the south but I don't know. It would be unusual to see an O'Neil or McLoughlin without the prefix where I'm living but I'd only know Doherty rather than O'Doherty.

A lot of the surnames that originally had a Mc prefix seem to have kept it while O' has been readily dropped by most surnames. O'Neil, O'Brien and O'Keeffe are the only O' surnames that I can think of at the moment where I'd find it unusual to see the surname without the O'. There are some surnames where I know of both forms with and without O' being used though. Whereas McDonagh, McDermott, McManus, McGovern, McGowan, McGrath, McNamara, etc. nearly always have the Mc. I do know both McCormack and Cormack though.

It's only with the Gaelic revival that some people began to use O' again. I know second cousins with the same surname but one lot of cousins go by Connell while the others go by O'Connell. It was only in the 20th century that O' started to be used by some of the family again. The family that started using the O' again also started giving their children Irish names like Aoife. As this website (http://www.irishidentity.com/lists/introduction.htm) says:


During the era of suppression of Catholic Ireland which began in the early 1600s the use of prefixes ‘O’ and ‘Mc’ or ‘Mac’ was widely dropped and only revived with the re-emergence of national consciousness in the late 19th century. In 1866 only 4% of the (O) Sullivan family were using the prefix O, by 1890 it had increased to 13% and by 1944 reached 60%. Another example is that of the (O)Connells, where use of the prefix increased from 9% to 33% between 1866 and 1890.

Interestingly, many surnames of the ‘O’ variety have never revived the prefix, including the most numerous Irish surname of all, Murphy. Others to fall into this category include Connolly, Donnelly, Doyle, Foley, Hogan, Kennedy, Nolan, Quinn and Sheridan. Among the O’Brien’s and O’Neill’s the prefix was widely retained, while the equally important O’Kelly family generally discarded the prefix.

The prefix ‘Mac’ has proved more resistant to change, partly because of its existence among Scottish surname in Ulster, but also because deletion of the prefix greatly alters the appearance of the name. There is little discernible difference between Brien and O’Brien, but the opposite is true of McGrath and Grath. However where ‘Mac’ has been dropped there has been little effort to revive it. Names such as Clancy, Egan and Keogh originally had the prefix ‘Mac’.

Webb
01-07-2019, 05:54 PM
In the U.S, it is very common to see many surnames where you know there was a O' but was dropped at some point. Donahue, for example is a fairly common surname in the U.S., missing the O'. I have a Maguire and Maginnis in my lines, and you can see the "c" was changed to an "a". I am not sure if it was changed deliberately, or if it was changed due to literacy issues, but these two surnames are spelled this way now. I have another large line, one that I am related to numerous times over, due to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd cousin marriages, which is Nickell. Genetically they match MacNichol in Scotland. I tell people, as a joke, that the English took their land and their "Mac" when they were cleared from the Highlands. Just a joke!!!! They might have lost it in the ocean when they came to America.

In my cartoon brain I envision a Monty Python skit where there is a English contingent that goes around with a super secret chest being pulled on a cart. They round up all the MacNichol's and in a public ceremony they strip them of their Mac, and place the Mac in the locked chest.

MacUalraig
01-07-2019, 06:39 PM
Kennedy is somewhat of an odd one out in that quoted list anyway though, as there are both Irish and Scottish origin Kennedys in genealogical Ireland plus in the past there were MacKennedys and O'Kennedys... there are for example 35 McKennedys in the 1911 Ireland census. As well as umpteen revivalist Irish spellings (based on O'Kennedy).

Nqp15hhu
01-07-2019, 06:42 PM
There are lots of names in my county that I cannot determine whether or not the origin is Irish or Gallowglass, so I can see your point.

Mum’s maiden name, McWilliams is an example. Supposedly this is Scottish but most of the people in the county, with this surname are Catholic.

This study refers to it: http://treasureyourexceptions.com/dna.html

Saetro
01-07-2019, 10:50 PM
In the U.S, it is very common to see many surnames where you know there was a O' but was dropped at some point. Donahue, for example is a fairly common surname in the U.S., missing the O'. I have a Maguire and Maginnis in my lines, and you can see the "c" was changed to an "a". I am not sure if it was changed deliberately, or if it was changed due to literacy issues, but these two surnames are spelled this way now.

MacGinnis => Maginnis is just elision: pronouncing the "c" and "g" separately disappears and they run together.
And then the name is spelled phonetically and the "c" has disappeared.

Or you can look at it the other way.
In Scotland in the 1700s and 1800s, many names were spelled just with just the M'
This case would look like M'Ginnis.
The vowel is unvoiced.
I believe this is represented by a back-to-front "e" for pronunciation purposes.
(That symbol is called "schwa" but this is easily confused with the alien face symbol like that from Area 51 that has been given the same name.)

spruithean
01-07-2019, 11:03 PM
MacGinnis => Maginnis is just elision: pronouncing the "c" and "g" separately disappears and they run together.
And then the name is spelled phonetically and the "c" has disappeared.

Or you can look at it the other way.
In Scotland in the 1700s and 1800s, many names were spelled just with just the M'
This case would look like M'Ginnis.
The vowel is unvoiced.
I believe this is represented by a back-to-front "e" for pronunciation purposes.
(That symbol is called "schwa" but this is easily confused with the alien face symbol like that from Area 51 that has been given the same name.)

Interesting! I'd never been 100% sure about how to pronounce that strange backward upside down e! I seem to recall that Maguire originates from Mag Uidhir, there are a few other surnames that have Mac rendered as Mag, which seems to appear if the prefix is followed by a vowel, such as Mag Aonghusa if I remember correctly.

FionnSneachta
01-08-2019, 12:06 AM
In the U.S, it is very common to see many surnames where you know there was a O' but was dropped at some point. Donahue, for example is a fairly common surname in the U.S., missing the O'.
In my town, the people go by Donoghue with no O' so that's not unique to emigrants. The surname Donoghue or Donahue is an Anglicised form of Ó Donnchadha or Ó Donnchú. Most Irish surnames were Anglicised in the second half of the 16th century. The O' or Mc being dropped in a surname is just further Anglicisation making the names sound more English. In 1911, there were 531 surnames with various spellings of O'Donaghue and 5,388 without the surname making the surnames with the O' accounting for 9%.

From here (https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/2016-family-history/modules-courses/surnames): After the collapse of the old Gaelic order, the only public administration was in English, even though most people spoke Irish as their first language for the following two centuries. If administrators wanted to identify people, they had to make English-language versions of their surnames. In the process, changes were forced on these names. First, Mc and O were treated as almost entirely optional. Then the stems of the names could be phonetically transcribed, or (mis-)translated or simply turned into already-existing English surname. So Ó Foghlú, from foghlaí , 'a robber', became Foley. Mac an Bhreitheamhan, 'son of the judge', became 'Judge'. And Ó Brolacháin was turned into the common English name 'Bradley', derived from an Old English place-name meaning 'broad meadow'.


Kennedy is somewhat of an odd one out in that quoted list anyway though, as there are both Irish and Scottish origin Kennedys in genealogical Ireland plus in the past there were MacKennedys and O'Kennedys... there are for example 35 McKennedys in the 1911 Ireland census. As well as umpteen revivalist Irish spellings (based on O'Kennedy).
Yes, but there are 35 named McKennedy and 40 O'Kennedy in comparison to 17,574 named Kennedy in 1911. They're not saying that it's universal that the prefixes were dropped but they were for the vast majority of Kennedys. That's 0.10% being recorded with a Mc or O' out of the total. All native Gaelic Irish surnames originally had an O' or Mc so they're not suggesting that the surnames never had those prefixes. I know plenty of Kennedys but no O'Kennedys (which seems to be the more common origin in Ireland) or McKennedys.

I actually get a chuckle around 4th July when Lidl get in some special products for the holiday. They have an 'American' food brand McEnnedy that I find amusing since it seems like, 'How can we may make the Kennedy surname sound more Irish?' I know McKennedy is a genuine surname but it actually sounds a bit ridiculous to hear nowadays since I've never heard anyone use the Mc. It's just one of those names that I don't associate with a prefix like Murphy. It reminds me of people trying to create an Irish character name and it's over the top Irish or even just like in the Simpsons when he's Kent O'Brockman for St. Patrick's Day.

Nqp15hhu
01-08-2019, 12:46 AM
ROI is the only place where English sounding names can be assumed to be mass anglicised. In Northern Ireland it seems to be 50/50 or even 60/40 that the name has not been anglicised.

FionnSneachta
01-08-2019, 01:17 AM
ROI is the only place where English sounding names can be assumed to be mass anglicised. In Northern Ireland it seems to be 50/50 or even 60/40 that the name has not been anglicised.

I agree with you. For example, I think that I can safely assume that Greene in my family is an Anglicisation but I'd be more uncertain if I lived in Northern Ireland since it could have originated in Britain rather than Ireland due to migrations. You mentioned McWilliams before. I don't think there is an Irish origin for Williams or McWilliams. It could happen that the family did originate from Scotland but had arrived in Ireland before the plantations if a lot of the McWilliams are Catholic. There have always been migrations between Ulster and Scotland, even before the plantations. Although, apparently, McWilliams can be a variant of McQuillan which does have an Irish origin.

Nqp15hhu
01-08-2019, 02:57 AM
I am sure you are right Fionn, it is just unusual to have a Scottish name associated with a large Catholic population within Northern Ireland.

fridurich
01-08-2019, 05:01 AM
I agree with you. For example, I think that I can safely assume that Greene in my family is an Anglicisation but I'd be more uncertain if I lived in Northern Ireland since it could have originated in Britain rather than Ireland due to migrations. You mentioned McWilliams before. I don't think there is an Irish origin for Williams or McWilliams. It could happen that the family did originate from Scotland but had arrived in Ireland before the plantations if a lot of the McWilliams are Catholic. There have always been migrations between Ulster and Scotland, even before the plantations. Although, apparently, McWilliams can be a variant of McQuillan which does have an Irish origin.

Also, one of the branches of the famous Burke family in Ireland took on the name McWilliams. Originally Norman, some of these Burkes took on Irish customs and a Gaelic style surname. I don’t know if the Burke’s intermarried with the Gaelic Irish, but many, if not most of the Norman families did. Many of the Normans also took on Gaelic Irish customs and could also speak Gaelic.

Kind Regards

Nqp15hhu
01-08-2019, 05:22 AM
How do I find out which one of these families I am connected to?

MacUalraig
01-08-2019, 07:34 AM
I know plenty of Kennedys ...

Good, I have a free Y sequencing offer (worth 600 Euros) on at the moment for such men if you can interest one or two of them? All areas/origins/spellings :-)

FionnSneachta
01-08-2019, 12:26 PM
Also, one of the branches of the famous Burke family in Ireland took on the name McWilliams. Originally Norman, some of these Burkes took on Irish customs and a Gaelic style surname. I don’t know if the Burke’s intermarried with the Gaelic Irish, but many, if not most of the Norman families did. Many of the Normans also took on Gaelic Irish customs and could also speak Gaelic.

Kind Regards

Thank you, I had forgotten about them. I was only watching a program that mentioned them on Sunday and they were even included in the map (https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/2016-family-history/modules-courses/surnames) on the website that I'd linked in the previous message. Yet, it didn't click with me. They were located around Mayo and Galway. I've attached an even more simplified map of the 1500s which has the Burkes divided into MacWilliam Burke and Burkes of Clanrickard. You're right that the Burkes did marry into Gaelic families giving rise to the phrase of 'more Irish than the Irish themselves'.

28213

Nqp15hhu
01-08-2019, 01:59 PM
Is McWilliams a name down there though? It strikes me as a distinctly Northern Irish name!

FionnSneachta
01-08-2019, 02:36 PM
Is McWilliams a name down there though? It strikes me as a distinctly Northern Irish name!

I don't personally know anyone with that surname while there are plenty of Burkes. In 1911, there seemed to have been 17 with the surname in Galway (7 are Catholic), 7 in Roscommon (all Church of Ireland) and none in Mayo so there doesn't seem to be many. Looking at the surname distribution in Ireland on John Grenham's website (https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=McWilliams&search_type=variants), the surname does seem to be concentrated in the north.

The website also gives this information on the surname.
MacWilliams
numerous: Ulster generally, Dublin etc. Ir. Mac Uilliam (Liam). The first name William, Teutonic Willhelm, meaning "will-helmet", was common amongst the Normans. See also Williams.

It could have been a surname introduced to Ireland during the Norman times.

MacUalraig
01-08-2019, 05:35 PM
Even though I’m an American, I have my own experience with someone who lived in the past, was born in County Cavan, Ireland about 1774, was Protestant, and had an English looking name. This man was Henry Hare, and with a name like that, and considering he was a Protestant, he would have to be English wouldn’t he (a question posed to this thread in general)?



I was taught O level English at school by a man called Patrick 'Paddy' Hare (we were the ones who called him Paddy). In those days I wasn't at all interested in such matters as the origins of surnames. Funnily enough he was very English sounding which I suppose was appropriate, and also a very good teacher - I got better grades at English Lang and Lit than anything else!

fridurich
01-09-2019, 03:57 AM
I was taught O level English at school by a man called Patrick 'Paddy' Hare (we were the ones who called him Paddy). In those days I wasn't at all interested in such matters as the origins of surnames. Funnily enough he was very English sounding which I suppose was appropriate, and also a very good teacher - I got better grades at English Lang and Lit than anything else!

That’s interesting! Do you think Patrick was of Irish descent even though he was English sounding? I’m sure you know, Hare can be an indigenous Scottish surname too. At Amazon.com, in previewing Black’s “The Surnames of Scotland”, the forms AHare, AHayer, etc., I believe are mentioned. Seems like the name was mainly in Ayrshire or close by. However, looks like the A prefix eventually got dropped from all forms of Hare. So, Hare can be an, indigenous English, Irish, or Scottish surname! And probably some English Hares migrated to Scotland as well.

Kind Regards

fridurich
01-09-2019, 04:40 AM
How do I find out which one of these families I am connected to?

Do you have any older McWilliams relatives that can give you genealogy information? Also, have you tried PRONI? They have a lot of records online too.

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/search-ecatalogue

A lot may depend if your McWilliams were actually Scottish. The name doesn’t seem very common in the Republic today. However I suppose it’s possible that centuries ago some of the (Burke) McWilliams could have immigrated to the North of Ireland.
Have you done any Ydna testing?Here is ftdnas McWilliams project.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/McWilliams?iframe=yresults

What a lot of people don’t realize, is that you almost always have to do at least 2 tests in Ydna testing, unless you do the Big Y, etc.

The first test shows what your ystr markers are and can be predictive of what your haplogroup is. You then need to do some kind of snp pack to see what your terminal snp is. Or if you dont mind spending a lot of money, you can do the Big Y 500 or Y-Elite, etc., which are really good tests and will show you what your private snps (novel variants) are as well. (If you can afford it the Big Y 500, or Y elite, or another good NGS test is the way to go.). A private snp really showed a close connection between my O’Hair family originally from County Down and a Canadian Hare family originally from County Cavan.

However, even without knowing private snps, when you find your get terminal snp, if you find someone else who has that snp, such as in a ftdna project, you can contact them and may eventually be able to tell if you are the same line as them, or, may be able, in some cases to determine your common ancestor.

Kind Regards

Nqp15hhu
01-09-2019, 05:39 AM
McWilliams is my mums Maiden name. So I cannot do a Y-DNA test.

I honestly don’t know if they came up from the south, it’s a possibility.

Regarding Y-DNA, I ordered a 37 in November and won’t receive it until March. I hope I don’t have to order another one.

Hopefully it isn’t too much of a hassle to find a pattern.

fridurich
01-09-2019, 05:50 AM
McWilliams is my mums Maiden name. So I cannot do a Y-DNA test.

I honestly don’t know if they came up from the south, it’s a possibility.

Regarding Y-DNA, I ordered a 37 in November and won’t receive it until March. I hope I don’t have to order another one.

I am keen to see my results. Hopefully it isn’t too much of a hassle to find a pattern.

I’m sorry, I knew that a ydna test for you wouldn’t shed light on the McWilliams, but I forgot and advised you to get one! What I meant to say was if you have any McWilliams uncles or male cousins who would like to ydna test.

But congrats on ordering your own Y test! Hopefully it won’t take too long to get your results. Look forward to hearing what you find. Well it’s almost midnight in Texas and I have to be up early for work!

Kind Regards!

Nqp15hhu
01-09-2019, 06:01 AM
Thanks Frid! Yes, early morning here too had a rubbish night of sleeping!!

MacUalraig
01-09-2019, 08:09 AM
That’s interesting! Do you think Patrick was of Irish descent even though he was English sounding? I’m sure you know, Hare can be an indigenous Scottish surname too. At Amazon.com, in previewing Black’s “The Surnames of Scotland”, the forms AHare, AHayer, etc., I believe are mentioned. Seems like the name was mainly in Ayrshire or close by. However, looks like the A prefix eventually got dropped from all forms of Hare. So, Hare can be an, indigenous English, Irish, or Scottish surname! And probably some English Hares migrated to Scotland as well.

Kind Regards

Not much to go on other than his first name which suggests his family were (originally) Irish. Not conclusive by any means.

MacUalraig
01-09-2019, 08:15 AM
What a lot of people don’t realize, is that you almost always have to do at least 2 tests in Ydna testing, unless you do the Big Y, etc.

The first test shows what your ystr markers are and can be predictive of what your haplogroup is. You then need to do some kind of snp pack to see what your terminal snp is.

There are alternative and cheaper strategies than that, for example YSEQ have an all-in SNP test for USD159 that will take you from no prior knowledge at all to a fully terminal SNP.

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=56898

They also have an all-in R1b-M343 test including sublevels if you fancy a slight gamble, it is pretty safe for a Gaelic surname. But the first test I mention will cover you if you are hg I too (probably about the only other possibility to worry about for Irish names).

Nqp15hhu
01-09-2019, 09:36 PM
Would it be possible to predict my haplogroup by looking at FTDNA? Most of my surname have G-M201?

FionnSneachta
01-09-2019, 11:23 PM
Would it be possible to predict my haplogroup by looking at FTDNA? Most of my surname have G-M201?

Is that for Cummins or McWilliams? I only see one with G-M201 in the McWilliams project and only three in the Cummings project so they wouldn't be the dominant haplogroup in either project. Either way, you can't really predict your haplogroup from looking at the FTDNA results of other people. Most Irish people end up being R-M269 so that would be a safe enough prediction for someone with Irish ancestry but that's not very meaningful by itself. There are different origins for the same surname and this is shown in the surname projects. There are 9 different groups currently in the McWilliams project and I think 36 in the Cummings project. As well as all the different origins for the surname, there's also the chance of an NPE that could prevent you matching people of the same surname.

Nqp15hhu
01-09-2019, 11:35 PM
That's true. It's for Cummins, it's just something I was interested in to see if I could find anything notable.

This is my predicted haplogroup:
https://i.imgur.com/USgJowI.png

Not sure if its the top one or the bottom one, but I don't see any M529's in the Cummins group. I wouldn't be surprised that my surname is an NPE, I actually have a theory that it is just because we're unconnected to the Irish Cummins and Cummins isn't a British name,

FionnSneachta
01-09-2019, 11:49 PM
That's true. It's for Cummins, it's just something I was interested in to see if I could find anything notable.

This is my predicted haplogroup:
https://i.imgur.com/USgJowI.png

Not sure if its the top one or the bottom one, but I don't see any M529's in the Cummins group. I wouldn't be surprised that my surname is an NPE, I actually have a theory that it is just because we're unconnected to the Irish Cummins and Cummins isn't a British name,

R-L459 would be a subclade of R-M269. I wouldn't mind no one in the project having R-M529. R-M529 is also known as R-L21 and this is a subclade of R-M269. Most people in the project are only known to be R-M269 which just shows that they haven't done any SNP testing. If you are R-M529, FTDNA will probably just give you a result of R-M269. However, it's the STR matches rather than the haplogroup itself that will likely provide you with the most information about your surname unless you were to do SNP testing.

Nqp15hhu
01-09-2019, 11:53 PM
Well it's from my AncestryDNA results, but I was hoping to get some clues because of the wait time.

fridurich
01-11-2019, 03:34 AM
There are alternative and cheaper strategies than that, for example YSEQ have an all-in SNP test for USD159 that will take you from no prior knowledge at all to a fully terminal SNP.

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=56898

They also have an all-in R1b-M343 test including sublevels if you fancy a slight gamble, it is pretty safe for a Gaelic surname. But the first test I mention will cover you if you are hg I too (probably about the only other possibility to worry about for Irish names).

Thanks, I’ll have to tell others about these tests. The first test sounds great for finding ones terminal snp even if they have no idea what their haplogroup is!!! And much cheaper than the Big Y! The second one sounds good too.

msmarjoribanks
01-12-2019, 04:54 AM
Thank you, I had forgotten about them. I was only watching a program that mentioned them on Sunday and they were even included in the map (https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/2016-family-history/modules-courses/surnames) on the website that I'd linked in the previous message. Yet, it didn't click with me. They were located around Mayo and Galway. I've attached an even more simplified map of the 1500s which has the Burkes divided into MacWilliam Burke and Burkes of Clanrickard. You're right that the Burkes did marry into Gaelic families giving rise to the phrase of 'more Irish than the Irish themselves'.

28213

Off topic, but I know the history and of course am familiar with Edmund Burke in particular, but in the US, the name Burke is usually just considered to be Irish Catholic, and seems to be pretty common.

Not really relevant, but possibly of interest, in current local politics in Chicago, Alderman Ed Burke recently got indicted, after being an alderman forever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_M._Burke. Among many, many other things, he is known for claiming a connection to Edmund Burke and quoting him.

Burke is now succeeded in the Chicago City Council by my (also problematic) alderman Pat O'Connor, who obviously has some Irish connections in his ancestry.

FionnSneachta
01-12-2019, 02:26 PM
Off topic, but I know the history and of course am familiar with Edmund Burke in particular, but in the US, the name Burke is usually just considered to be Irish Catholic, and seems to be pretty common.

Not really relevant, but possibly of interest, in current local politics in Chicago, Alderman Ed Burke recently got indicted, after being an alderman forever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_M._Burke. Among many, many other things, he is known for claiming a connection to Edmund Burke and quoting him.

Burke is now succeeded in the Chicago City Council by my (also problematic) alderman Pat O'Connor, who obviously has some Irish connections in his ancestry.

Yes, you're right that Burke is a very common surname. It's 16th most common in Ireland. People with the surname would be predominantly Catholic since the surname arrived with the Normans which was before the Reformation and the Plantations.

Nqp15hhu
01-12-2019, 03:58 PM
Not common in NI.

FionnSneachta
01-12-2019, 05:06 PM
Not common in NI.

Burke is mostly concentrated in the west of Ireland. Burke is ranked 4th in Connacht, 27th in Leinster and 28th in Munster while it's ranked 145th in Northern Ireland.

spruithean
01-12-2019, 10:44 PM
Would it be possible to predict my haplogroup by looking at FTDNA? Most of my surname have G-M201?

I would steer clear of making such predictions based on a surname alone. NPEs, random fostering/adoptions, etc can really make this a "risky" assumption to make.

I had predicted my haplogroup to be R-L21 or some such type of R1b however it clearly became evident that it was some branch of I1 and not the same kind of I1 found by most of the people in my DNA project.

Nqp15hhu
01-12-2019, 11:15 PM
There you are then!