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View Full Version : Brainstorming Y6923 - a deeply diverged Ashkenazi big group with links to the Med.



hartaisarlag
01-08-2019, 04:29 PM
5.5% of Ashkenazim, including myself, belong to Y6923, a downstream subclade of E-L791, the smaller of E-M34's 2 primary branches. Y6923's deeply diverged from its sister subclade, Y4972 (which based on a small number of samples, seems to be represented in the Mediterranean, Armenia, France, and Arabia, including among Romaniote Jews), the split estimated at 5,500 BP. Until recently, Y6923 itself had reliable link to the non-Ashkenazi world.

Now we know that Y6923 itself is not an Ashkenazi marker per se, but rather, that its predominant subclade, Y6938, is (to my knowledge, no non-Ashkenazim have been asssigned to it). This year, a sister branch to Y6938—Y102667—was identified, uniting a Puerto Rican sample from FTDNA and a Libyan Jewish sample from a published paper. The split between these two lines is estimated to about 400 CE. (See tree here (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y6923/).)

Unfortunately the one or two people who've historically managed our subclade project have been AWOL, and everyone else claims to be too uninformed to play with the possibilities here. My hope is that we can start to form some hypotheses (based on very limited data) about the path of Y6938 on its way into the founding Ashkenazi community, the possible distribution of Y6923 farther afield (in subclade-untested populations), and the ultimate origins of Y6923 (null hypothesis being in Judea, but no reason to bank on it).

Some thoughts:

The Puerto Rican link is proof that, like several other large and small Ashkenazi branches, Y6923 has a link to Spain—presumably Jews in Spain—within the last 1,500 years. Unlike some in the jewishdna.net community, I do not take this as proof of an origin for the subclade in Spain, prior to its migration to medieval Ashkenaz. Given the structure and dates (Y6938 and Y102667 as sibling branches), I would guess that this suggests a common ancestry for Y6923 Ashkenazim and our Y6923 Puerto Rican cousin in some other Mediterranean location, some time during the late classical period. The structural bifurcation suggests strongly that the origin of Y6923 in Spain is not the result of an Ashkenazi migration to Sepharad, though this mechanism of Jewish panmixia is generally underrated.

Meanwhile, the Libyan Jewish link, which is an even newer discovery, raises its own set of additional questions. Is Libyan Jewish Y6923 (which sits on the same branch, Y102667, as the Puerto Rican individual) of pre-Sephardic Libyan Jewish origin, or is it an import from Spain? To that question, does anyone know what share of the Libyan Jewish gene pool we might assume is the result of Sephardic migrations? (I also seem to remember a very early Jewish uniparentals paper that demonstrated a high rate of E-M123 in Libyan Jews relative to most other Jewish groups—I wonder how much of this would turn out to be Y6923.) If it's an import from Spain, then the questions in the last paragraph apply. If not, seeking a common ancestor for Y6923 in Ashkenaz, Sepharad, and Libya becomes much more interesting. Someone in a recent thread responded to me by suggesting an Alexandrian connection, which would certainly be interesting. What I'd like to see is deep subclade testing of all E-M34 Jews (or, to make it easier, all E-M34 xM84 Jews), followed by the same for other Mediterranean populations (especially Cypriots, as we've addressed before, and Palestinians, for obvious reasons).

Another ideal goal: I'm not sure if any other Jewish subclade junkies have been able to correlate internal substructure of their subclades with intra-Ashkenazi migration patterns, but I'm holding out hope that it'll be possible. So far, nothing suggestive, but 5 main branches of Z36123 (itself directly downstream of Y6938) have been characterized. Curiously, I'm negative for 4 of the 5, and the 5th isn't available yet on YSEQ.

Thoughts? Would love collaboration and hints on this deep dive.

hartaisarlag
01-08-2019, 11:04 PM
28237Small sample sizes, not dispositive at all, but here’s an image from Shen et al 2004 on Jewish Diaspora and Samaritan uniparentals. Note the Ashkenazi/Libyan dynamic. Can we find some Libyan Jewish M34’s out there and YSEQ them for $20 a pop?

Farroukh
01-09-2019, 04:40 AM
hartaisarlag, as you noted, completely Ashkenzi subclade is E-Y6938 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y6938/) only. E-Y102667 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y102667/) seems to be Sephardic one.
I also expect other E-Y6923 (Y6938-, Y102667-) guys with Levantine (Canaanite), but non-Jewish origin, who will form new old downstream branches of E-Y6923. Formation period of E-Y6923 is 4rd millenium BC, epoch of Khirbet Kerak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khirbet_Kerak#History),

hartaisarlag
01-10-2019, 06:13 AM
Farroukh, I’ve seen you around at the Haplozone forum (a slow place, alas). Wish more people were thinking about Y6923 and adjacent subclades (Y4972, Y2947) - and curious to hear any thoughts you might have.

Farroukh
01-10-2019, 12:07 PM
Now we have no enough information for more detailed conclusions. I only know E-Y6923 is too old to be specific Jewish haplogroup, it surely spreaded among other peolpes of Levant.

hartaisarlag
01-10-2019, 03:58 PM
Now we have no enough information for more detailed conclusions. I only know E-Y6923 is too old to be specific Jewish haplogroup, it surely spreaded among other peolpes of Levant.

Wonder what the best way of looking for proof is. So far not a single direct link, unlike the major Ashkenazi M84 group.

Farroukh
01-10-2019, 05:03 PM
My speculative opinion is based on some following points:
1) North African Jews are mixture of Spanish Sephardic groups (migrated during 15-16th centuries) and local converted people (Giyur ceremony). Sure, they include both E-M34 and E-M81
2) Maximum percentage of E-M34 Jewish subclades is on E-M84 branch
3) Others are E-Z841 carriers, including our subject (E-Y6923)
4) Some of modern E-Y6923 carriers are "Marranos"/"Donme" (descendants of Jews converted into Christianity/Islam)

Most interesting will be aDNA samples from Canaanite countries

hartaisarlag
01-10-2019, 06:26 PM
My speculative opinion is based on some following points:
1) North African Jews are mixture of Spanish Sephardic groups (migrated during 15-16th centuries) and local converted people (Giyur ceremony). Sure, they include both E-M34 and E-M81
2) Maximum percentage of E-M34 Jewish subclades is on E-M84 branch
3) Others are E-Z841 carriers, including our subject (E-Y6923)
4) Some of modern E-Y6923 carriers are "Marranos"/"Donme" (descendants of Jews converted into Christianity/Islam)

Most interesting will be aDNA samples from Canaanite countries

Agree on all points except no. 1. I would bet that larger than either of those two components, at least among Tunisian, Libyan, and Egyptian Jews, is a pre-Sephardic Levantine ancestry (which blended, of course, with pagan Berbers in some proportion). Moroccan and Algerian Jews have much more distinctively Euro-Mediterranean origin, indicative of predominantly Sephardic origins. No one’s put a good number on it though.

hartaisarlag
01-11-2019, 07:39 PM
Also, does anyone know anything about Semargl? jewishdna.net lists Y-67 STR matches via Semargl, one of which for Y6923 reports a Tunisian origin. A kit number is reported, but it looks like Semargl’s been offline for years. Any way I could hunt down this kit’s bearer?

Farroukh
01-12-2019, 02:48 AM
Unfortunately, Semargl database was deactivated due to privacy laws.

Farroukh
02-07-2019, 04:09 PM
Ashkenazic downstream branch of E-Y6923 is labeled as E-Y6938, formed 1600 years ago, TMRCA 1350 years.

hartaisarlag
02-07-2019, 06:58 PM
Ashkenazic downstream branch of E-Y6923 is labeled as E-Y6938, formed 1600 years ago, TMRCA 1350 years.

Yes, to date Y6938 is the exclusively Ashkenazi marker.

hartaisarlag
06-04-2019, 03:45 PM
Some news:

1. A Tunisian Jew whose known paternal line runs through Turkey, as well as an unidentified individual from Algeria (I would guess Jewish) have tested as Y6923+ and Y6938-. The Tunisian-Turkish Jew is supposedly pretty distantly removed from the Puerto Rican (converso-origin?) at Y102667, which suggests he might be Y102667-.

2. A new clade (Y6926) defined by 15 unique SNPs has shown up on FTDNA's Y Haplotree between Y4971 and Y6923. So far the defining individuals (Y6926+ Y6923-) have not been identified with any information, including nation of origin.

Both of these updates have the potential to significantly clarify the story of Y6923, an important Jewish Diaspora lineage that now seems to comprise both Ashkenazim and Sephardim (whether its bent toward North African Jews is a sampling artifact or evidence of a real pattern is hard to say). Waiting with bated breath to find out more about the Y6926+ Y6923- individuals.

hartaisarlag
06-05-2019, 11:08 PM
Moreover:

3. One of the Y6926+ Y6923- individuals has shown up in the FTDNA E-M35 mega-group, and while he's still unidentified, he clusters with 3 Emiratis and an Omani, all from the same family/clan.

hartaisarlag
06-06-2019, 06:03 PM
Unfortunately I can't get any thoughts out of the people in the Y6923 project @ FTDNA. Does anyone else find this problem in their subclade investigations?

hartaisarlag
06-09-2019, 03:01 AM
Some news:

1. A Tunisian Jew whose known paternal line runs through Turkey, as well as an unidentified individual from Algeria (I would guess Jewish) have tested as Y6923+ and Y6938-. The Tunisian-Turkish Jew is supposedly pretty distantly removed from the Puerto Rican (converso-origin?) at Y102667, which suggests he might be Y102667-.

2. A new clade (Y6926) defined by 15 unique SNPs has shown up on FTDNA's Y Haplotree between Y4971 and Y6923. So far the defining individuals (Y6926+ Y6923-) have not been identified with any information, including nation of origin.

Both of these updates have the potential to significantly clarify the story of Y6923, an important Jewish Diaspora lineage that now seems to comprise both Ashkenazim and Sephardim (whether its bent toward North African Jews is a sampling artifact or evidence of a real pattern is hard to say). Waiting with bated breath to find out more about the Y6926+ Y6923- individuals.

Turns out our Turkish-Tunisian Jew is Y102667+.

His claim of direct paternal origins in the Turkish Jewish community is curious to me—there is no specific location attached to the datum, and the surname he was known by (which his descendant carries) is almost certainly of North African provenance. How often would Jews from Turkey have migrated to Tunisia in the early 19th century - does anyone have an idea?

I ask because the implications are somewhat different depending on whether or not there's an authentic origin outside of North Africa.

hartaisarlag
06-09-2019, 10:30 PM
Further updates:

1. Wim Penninx confirms that based on STR distance from the unidentified Y6926+ Y6923- individual, it's extremely likely that the same-clan cluster of Emiratis and Omanis (plus other unidentified individuals) is Y6926+. Considering that up until now, Y6923's closest relation, Y4972, shared a common ancestor with it in the 4th millennium BCE, and included Gulf Arabs, French, Italians, Greeks, Greek Jews, Armenians, and Russians, this is real progress.

2. I've also been notified of the existence of two *predicted* Y6923+ Y6938- individuals: a Mexican and a Peruvian. They would definitely fit the emerging pattern of Y6923+ Y6938- as a Sephardic (or at least non-Ashkenazic Western Jewish) lineage, especially if confirmed Y102667+.

hartaisarlag
06-26-2019, 03:58 AM
The latest:

YFull is reporting that of the 3 confirmed Y102667+ individuals, 2—the Puerto Rican and the Turkish-Tunisian Jew—are now characterized by a pair of newly identified SNPs, Y99093 and BY92944 (and as such are now assigned to the branch E-Y99093). These are given a TMRCA of 550 CE.

The Libyan Jew is negative for these SNPs, and remains E-Y102667*. Y102667's TMRCA has been updated to 350 CE.

hartaisarlag
07-23-2019, 07:46 PM
Updates:

The Puerto Rican and Turkish-Tunisian Jew's subclade TMRCA has been bumped up to 650 CE, and Y102667's to 400 CE.

Y6923's TMRCA stands at 400 CE, but what's most immediately relevant to questions about Ashkenazi ethnogenesis is that Y6938 has a TMRCA of 700 CE. The average TMRCA of the 10 biggest Ashkenazi branches is 670 CE, with a range of +/- 250 years or so. These dates are all based on YFull's methods, of course. If someone can give a good reason to prefer another estimation method, I'll revise my assumptions.



Next door to Y6923, at Y4972, I've found some interesting things that I had never picked up on before.

YFull identifies its main branch as K257, with a TMRCA of 2900 BCE. Under K257 on YFull's tree is one Sardinian at K257*, and a large, structured branch at Y4970, which includes Europeans (including the Bonapartes) and Arabs.

But: FTDNA's haplotree identifies 10 K257* individuals: 2 Germans (Jews?), an Italian (that Sardinian?), an Iraqi, an Armenian, a Portuguese, a Venezuelan, a Canadian, a Spaniard, and of most interest to me, a Palestinian with roots in the Nablus district.

Hopefully some more downstream structure is identified here. Either way, this makes for the closest explicitly non-Jewish Levantine connection to Y6923, although I expect closer ones to emerge.



Also, relevant to the L791 discussion that's happened in connection to the Polish-like Viking individual, it turns out I was wrong about Y2947 being exclusively attested in Europeans. There is a Lebanese individual nestled among a few Russians/Chuvashes, in an otherwise heavily West Med branch. Don't ask me to explain. Farroukh, I see you noticed this awhile ago and have speculated about it.

hartaisarlag
08-05-2019, 05:12 PM
Updates:

1. The Y6926+ individual's last name confirms the hypothesis that he is Arab. Unfortunately, no country of origin indicated.
2. I count 9 or 10 very close STR matches in the database; for all who have tested at least 111 markers, it is clear that the common ancestor is within the last 500 years. All but 1 or 2 of these men are from the same Southeast Arabian clan. Hoping at least one is waiting for Big Y results to come in.

It is also clear from running a SNP predictor that there are several Middle Eastern L791 individuals who cannot be securely placed into any of its existing subclades. Hopefully some of these guys have done Big Y recently.

I also saw an old thread suggesting that Y6923 might have been found in the Cypriot sample from Heraclides et al. I ran Nevgen on the suggested individuals, and Y6923 did not come up.

Farroukh
08-08-2019, 05:06 AM
That Jew from Northern Africa with roots from Turkey seems to be the descendant of Spanish Sephard of Reconquest times.
Some Sephardic people converted into Islam and assimilated in local Moslem ethnic groups.

If we try to find Jewish ancestral subclade of this haplogroup it must have formation period not older than 3500 years.

hartaisarlag
08-08-2019, 05:09 AM
That Jew from Northern Africa with roots from Turkey seems to be the descendant of Spanish Sephard of Reconquest times.
Some Sephardic people converted into Islam and assimilated in local Moslem ethnic groups.

If we try to find Jewish ancestral subclade of this haplogroup it must have formation period not older than 3500 years.

I don't think the Muslim Gulf Arabs who are Y6926+ are descended from Jews—I think their line diverged from Canaanites during the Bronze Age.

Farroukh
08-09-2019, 06:09 AM
I see no Arabs at Y6923 tree, Jews only. Maybe you talked about another parallel downstream of L791?

hartaisarlag
08-09-2019, 06:52 AM
I see no Arabs at Y6923 tree, Jews only. Maybe you talked about another parallel downstream of L791?

No, I've been watching this with a hawk's eye for the last 2 months.

If you look at the FTDNA block tree or public haplotree, you'll see that there is now a marker upstream of Y6923 called Y6926. It, not Y6923, is now best thought of as a direct descendant of Y4971, and a sibling to Y4972 and BY36952. If you check the statistics on Y6926, you'll find that 2 individuals are assigned it as a terminal SNP, but neither has indicated a country of origin. Of the 32 SNPs previously assigned to Y6923, Y6926 has now claimed 15 of them. Someone who's better-versed in molecular clock stuff than me roughly estimated that Y6926 has a TMRCA in the 17th century BCE. This is obviously very tentative, but still significant, considering that Y6923's next most recent relation split from it ca. 3500 BCE, and in principle, anything can happen during 4 millennia unaccounted for.

Since neither of the two has uploaded to YFull, it isn't on their canonical tree yet.

One of the two confirmed Y6926+ Y6923- individuals is in the E-M35 group at FTDNA, and was immediately assigned to a cluster of individuals from one clan in the UAE and Oman. There are a few more, one with a different surname, in the Arab E1b1 group. Altogether about 10-12. Plus, the Y6926+ Y6923- confirmed individual's name finally surfaced in the Arab E1b1, and unsurprisingly, it's an Arab name. I've checked the Y111 genetic distances between all these individuals; it looks like their TMRCA is within the last 500 years. In other words, all of them, if tested for it, would probably turn out to be Y6926+.

I've been reaching out to all the relevant parties I can find about this, and the response has been sluggish. I can't see why—this is the biggest refinement in E-L791's phylogeny in years. Just one BAM file uploaded to YFull would "make it official". I've even tracked one of the guys down on Twitter and written to him in Arabic, but it's of no avail so far. The Arab E-M35 Twitter account did respond to me, and suggested that the individuals in this cluster were probably Y16161+, downstream of Y4972—because they aren't aware that Y6926+ Y6923- is now documented. I showed them the documentation (Y16161 forms its own nicely sub-structured cluster; these folks all fall outside it, and are grouped with a confirmed Y6926+ man), and they haven't gotten back to me.

In time...

Farroukh
08-10-2019, 05:22 AM
FTDNA tree structuring is not so trustable. It will be the best way for those Arabs to upload their bam-files to Yfull.
The divergence node of Arabs and Jews fits in period of ~4kya. But all these speculations, theories and etc. are obvious things.

The great secret for me is total absence of Y6923 in aDNA samples from Canaan. Who knows, maybe they will excavate new remnants this year?

Pillar_of_fire
08-11-2019, 04:32 PM
Hi all,

I manage a Bulgarian kit 306837 proved to be positive for L791. He has Y12 only, but has tested the L791 SNP by Sanguer sequencing. There is yet another kit in the Bulgarian project, IN27831, tested Y37, possitive for L791 and after YSEQ panel - E-Y6938.

According to this paper https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0056779, the Е-M34 is around 1.9% in Bulgarians.

In case some of you are interested to test both samples with BIG Y please donate to the Bulgarian Project - https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna/ ; I may be able to put forward some funds myself

Elena Kuyumdjian - [email protected]

hartaisarlag
08-11-2019, 05:31 PM
Hi all,

I manage a Bulgarian kit 306837 proved to be positive for L791. He has Y12 only, but has tested the L791 SNP by Sanguer sequencing. There is yet another kit in the Bulgarian project, IN27831, tested Y37, possitive for L791 and after YSEQ panel - E-Y6938.

According to this paper https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0056779, the Е-M34 is around 1.9% in Bulgarians.

In case some of you are interested to test both samples with BIG Y please donate to the Bulgarian Project - https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna/ ; I may be able to put forward some funds myself

Elena Kuyumdjian - [email protected]

Elena, I’m PMing you. Want to know more about these Bulgarians.

hartaisarlag
08-14-2019, 08:31 PM
Update: false alarm re: Y6923+/Y6938+ Bulgarian.

hartaisarlag
09-10-2019, 02:19 PM
I see no Arabs at Y6923 tree, Jews only. Maybe you talked about another parallel downstream of L791?

It's YFull-official now: https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y6926/. Estimated divergence ca. 1700 BCE. If I was the sort of person who believed in Isaac and Ishmael, I'd be pushing that *hard* right now.

Farroukh
09-11-2019, 04:45 PM
Yes, the divergence point approx. fits with times of Exodus from Egypt.

hartaisarlag
09-11-2019, 05:58 PM
Yes, the divergence point approx. fits with times of Exodus from Egypt.

Which cannot be treated like a historical event. Now, on the other hand, the end of the Middle Bronze Age, which might have involved an influx of Hyksos (one possible layer of influence on the Exodus story), seems like it might’ve been an important moment for population dynamics in the southern Levant.

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems too early to conclude which periods in Bronze Age Levantine (can we say Canaanite before MB?) history were characterized by the most genomically measurable population turnover. I look forward to the possibility, which is within reach.

Farroukh
09-13-2019, 09:52 AM
Yes, we still have no archeological confirmation of massive and long-term migration from Egypt to Canaan. But it doesn't mean "Exodus is fake".

For example, we also have no archeological confirmation of Gypsy ("Domba") migration from India to Europe. But undoubtedly it was real.

I think more interesting is to find aDNA sample from that region.

hartaisarlag
10-19-2019, 06:12 PM
I don't think the Muslim Gulf Arabs who are Y6926+ are descended from Jews—I think their line diverged from Canaanites during the Bronze Age.

I have to somewhat revise my statement here, if the new YFull divergence date is to be trusted (again, it is only based on one Y6926* individual, and the addition of others I've seen might not be particularly helpful, as they're all relatively close relatives). Now we are seeing 3100 ybp, rather than 3700 ybp, which is the difference between an MBA divergence and an Iron I divergence. By 1100 BCE, it is fair to say there was a group we could call (at least retroactively) proto-Israelites. If Abu Y6926 was a proto-Israelite or a member of some adjacent, then this Gulf clan is descended from Israelites (or some adjacent group). But he easily might not have been.

Maybe this favors a seminomadic/Transjordanian origin marginally over an urban Canaanite origin? Very, very early to say, but fun that we can start.

hartaisarlag
01-22-2020, 09:12 PM
To any who are interested: a New Mexican with roots going back to 17th century Ciudad Juárez/El Paso has tested positive for Y6923, but negative for both Y6938 and Y102667. The structure of this subclade just got a lot more interesting. The way I see it, there are 4 active possibilities, which we'll hopefully be able to test using YFull:

1) This new individual forms a branch coequal with Y6938 and Y102667
2) He forms a basal branch in opposition to a branch uniting Y6938 and Y102667 (there might be circumstantial proof for this in the fact that he has no listed STR matches closer than Y12)
3) He forms a basal branch joining him with Y6938 in opposition to Y102667
4) He forms a basal branch joining him with Y102667 in opposition to Y6938

Whatever the case, this makes it likelier that Iberia plays an important role in the story—just how important is to be determined.

hartaisarlag
07-17-2020, 09:07 PM
The E-Y102667 clade now has SNP-confirmed members of Tunisian Jewish, Libyan Jewish, Sicilian, and Puerto Rican origin. There are additional non-SNP-confirmed likely branch members from each of these 4 groups, plus an Algerian Jew.

hartaisarlag
08-16-2020, 10:12 PM
Another twist:

Besides Y6938, Y102667, and the unnamed New Mexican-defined branch, we've turned up a 4th branch of E-Y6923. The exemplar: an American man of ethnic German roots with an MDKA in the Moselle region of Lorraine, just about 45 km from the early proto-Ashkenazi center of Metz. No autosomal trace of recent Jewish ancestry.

Notably, E-Y6938, despite over a thousand exemplars, has none from the Jewish communities of Alsace-Lorraine, and just a handful from all of Germany. This new branch seems to have arrived north of the Alps via a different root than E-Y6938.

ACV2
09-04-2020, 06:49 PM
Hello Hartaisarlag previously you stated: "The structural bifurcation suggests strongly that the origin of Y6923 in Spain is not the result of an Ashkenazi migration to Sepharad,".

In the thread I created: The case for E-M123* (without E-M34 coming out of Israel, Specifically), my last post might be of interest to you. There, I "speculate" on the subject from information I have gathered and others research which I have used to build my little puzzle theory upon, as a not very experienced in the field hobbyist; however, I must state that to me it is very clear.

hartaisarlag
11-21-2020, 12:50 AM
Now there's a 5th branch, defined by a Sephardi from Rhodes. This pattern—a late classical (ca. 400 CE) split into 5 branches across the Western Jewish world—is something that hasn't shown up elsewhere, yet. Might offer hints about what's to come for other Jewish Y-DNA lineages.

Farroukh
01-25-2021, 04:28 AM
So called legendary "King for a day (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Wahl)" (Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen, b. 1541 and d. 1617) seems to be E-M34 :) There are two ravvinistic lineages of Katzenellenbogen (E-M84 and E-Y6923). We do not know exactly who among them was "the same king" but claiming him as E-M34 is the best compromise :)

leorcooper19
01-28-2021, 02:43 AM
So called legendary "King for a day (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Wahl)" (Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen, b. 1541 and d. 1617) seems to be E-M34 :) There are two ravvinistic lineages of Katzenellenbogen (E-M84 and E-Y6923). We do not know exactly who among them was "the same king" but claiming him as E-M34 is the best compromise :)

Interesting! I am technically a descendant of his, as I'm sure many tens of thousands of EAJs are as well. Where did you find out he is E-M34? Most Katzenellenbogens that claim descent from the famous Rabbinical line are in J-BY101 (would be J-ZS1706* on YFull). There are no famous Rabbinical lineages in E-M84 > Y14891, yet there are a few in E-Y6923 > Y6938.

Farroukh
01-28-2021, 07:58 PM
Most Katzenellenbogens that claim descent from the famous Rabbinical line are in J-BY101 (would be J-ZS1706* on YFull). There are no famous Rabbinical lineages in E-M84 > Y14891, yet there are a few in E-Y6923 > Y6938.
http://www.avotaynuonline.com/2016/03/y-dna-genetic-signature-ethnic-origin-katzenellenbogen-rabbinical-lineage/

leorcooper19
01-28-2021, 11:40 PM
http://www.avotaynuonline.com/2016/03/y-dna-genetic-signature-ethnic-origin-katzenellenbogen-rabbinical-lineage/

Right, this study was the one that found that "most Katzenellenbogens that claim descent from the famous Rabbinical line are in J-BY101." Is there actually any evidence of him being E-M34 instead?

Farroukh
01-29-2021, 11:39 AM
Sorry.
https://www.academia.edu/9277136/Connecting_to_the_Wertheim-Giterman_Rabbinical_Lineage_through_Y-DNA

capsian
01-29-2021, 02:19 PM
Hi Farroukh
i have seen one sample of Ruba from Poland on Y DNA E-PF2431 under E-FGC18981

altvred
01-29-2021, 02:57 PM
Is there any particular historical event one could potentially correlate with the Sepheradi and Ashkenazi branches splitting off?


From what I've seen on Yfull and read here, the two branches' most recent common ancestor dates to somewhere around 400 AD.


So is it possible that the split is somehow related to the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the collapse of the age-old Mediterranean trade routes, and the subsequent isolation of Jewish communities from each other across the former Roman world?

leorcooper19
01-29-2021, 04:57 PM
Is there any particular historical event one could potentially correlate with the Sepheradi and Ashkenazi branches splitting off?


From what I've seen on Yfull and read here, the two branches' most recent common ancestor dates to somewhere around 400 AD.


So is it possible that the split is somehow related to the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the collapse of the age-old Mediterranean trade routes, and the subsequent isolation of Jewish communities from each other across the former Roman world?

Good question! It does seem like c. 300-500 CE was a major point for Western Jewry ethnogenesis and the subsequent scattering of populations, as supported by several TMRCAs between major Ashkenazi and Sephardi (as well as other groups') lineages to that date range. That said, there are also several with a much later TMRCA, being within 700-900 CE. In that sense, it's not just one "particular historical event" that denotes the Ashkenazi-Sephardi split, but rather eventual divergence of streams over many hundreds of years with some constant back-and-forth through all time periods.

altvred
01-29-2021, 09:58 PM
Good question! It does seem like c. 300-500 CE was a major point for Western Jewry ethnogenesis and the subsequent scattering of populations, as supported by several TMRCAs between major Ashkenazi and Sephardi (as well as other groups') lineages to that date range. That said, there are also several with a much later TMRCA, being within 700-900 CE. In that sense, it's not just one "particular historical event" that denotes the Ashkenazi-Sephardi split, but rather eventual divergence of streams over many hundreds of years with some constant back-and-forth through all time periods.

You are definitely correct in saying that this isn't the outcome of a single historical event; that would be a gross oversimplification of what probably was a prolonged and complicated process.

We can maybe classify the 4th century as the beginning of the process that would split the Western Jewish diaspora.

By the time Ashkenazi Jews reached Eastern Europe during the late Middle Ages, there was no direct contact with Sephardic communities beyond possible communications between the Rabbinical leadership. There already was a distinct Ashkenazi and Spanish Nusach (rite of prayer).

So by the 15th century, the separation was undoubtedly concluded.

Can you mention other patrilineal markers shared by Sepheradi and Ashkenazi Jews? I'm only really aware of Y6923 being an example of that because it's my great grandfather's haplogroup.

leorcooper19
01-30-2021, 03:25 PM
Can you mention other patrilineal markers shared by Sepheradi and Ashkenazi Jews? I'm only really aware of Y6923 being an example of that because it's my great grandfather's haplogroup.

Sure. I'll share what seem to be the most interesting lineages of the bigger Ashkenazi ones and break them up into TMRCA ranges.

Ancient Israelite:
J-Y6384 - A small, solely Sephardi lineage connects with the larger pan-Western Jewish clade of J-ZS4306 at a TMRCA of c. 700 BCE
J-Y3088 > Z18271 - A huge Jewish lineage with several independent Ashkenazi and Sephardi lineages that connect at a TMRCA of c. 1000 - 800 BCE

Mid-late classical:
E-Y6923 - see above :)
J-ZS1670 - A Mexican connects to an otherwise solely Ashkenazi lineage at c. 250 CE
J-ZS2439 - A Latino connects to an Ashkenazi lineage at c. 150 CE
J-ZS2616 - A Mexican connects to an Ashkenazi lineage at c. 50 CE
J-Y5400 - A Peruvian connects to a major Ashkenazi lineage (the source of old Cohen-Modal-Haplotype fame) at c. 400 CE

Early medieval (450 - 700 CE)
J-L254 - A Moroccan Jew connects to a large Ashkenazi lineage at c. 600 CE
J-Z43501 - A Puerto Rican connects to a large Ashkenazi lineage at c. 650 CE
R-Y5051 - Several Iberians connect to a large Ashkenazi lineage at c. 500 CE
R-Y19847 - Several Latin Americans connect to a medium-sized Ashkenazi lineage at c. 650 CE
Q-Y2200 > BZ72 - Sephardim and several likely conversos connect to a large Ashkenazi lineage at c. 650 CE, nested within the major Ashkenazi lineage of Q-Y2200
J-L823 - Several Mexicans connect to a medium-sized Ashkenazi lineage at c. 500-600 CE (not on YFull)

Medieval (700 - 1000 CE)
J-L816 - Italo-Romaniote and Balkan Sephardi connect to a major Ashkenazi lineage at c. 850 CE
G-FGC228 - Moroccan Jew and Turk connect to a large Ashkenazi lineage at c. 900 CE
R-V3476 - Mixed Sephardi and converso clade connects to two Ashkenazi lineages at c. 850 CE

Late medieval / early modern (probable Sephardi > Ashkenazi introgressions)
J-FGC5206 - a young (c. 1350 CE) yet medium-sized Ashkenazi lineage with two uncle branches of solely Iberian origin that connect to c. 650 CE.
R-FGC21016 - a young (c. 1350 CE) yet medium-sized Ashkenazi lineage connects with an older Sephardi-converso branch at c. 600 CE.
J-Z39653 - a young (c. 1300 CE) yet medium-sized Ashkenazi lineage connects with a Colombian and a Paradesi (Sephardic Jew from India) at c. 900 CE.
E-BY8536 - a young (c. 1600 CE) and small Ashkenazi lineage connects to a Moroccan Jew at c. 1000 CE.

This is NOT an exhaustive list and there are several more I could add in each category, but these are in my opinion the best and clearest examples of Ashkenazi-Sephardi splits at each time-frame. As you can see the two populations share ancestors at every point in their history, and thus were never totally separated.

Farroukh
02-09-2021, 02:05 AM
E-Y6923 branch of Katzellenbogens traced to Joel Ashkenazi, who married Saul's sister and his descendants accepted maternal surname.

One of them became Rebbe of Lubavitch, his branch at Yfull:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY165390/

alchemist223
05-01-2021, 07:49 PM
To any who are interested: a New Mexican with roots going back to 17th century Ciudad Juárez/El Paso has tested positive for Y6923, but negative for both Y6938 and Y102667. The structure of this subclade just got a lot more interesting. The way I see it, there are 4 active possibilities, which we'll hopefully be able to test using YFull:

1) This new individual forms a branch coequal with Y6938 and Y102667
2) He forms a basal branch in opposition to a branch uniting Y6938 and Y102667 (there might be circumstantial proof for this in the fact that he has no listed STR matches closer than Y12)
3) He forms a basal branch joining him with Y6938 in opposition to Y102667
4) He forms a basal branch joining him with Y102667 in opposition to Y6938

Whatever the case, this makes it likelier that Iberia plays an important role in the story—just how important is to be determined.

As I've been browsing YFull's new tree, I've noticed that this New Mexican now has been clustered with a new kit, YF80718, of unknown origins to form a new subclade, FT226426 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-FT226426/).

hartaisarlag
05-01-2021, 08:39 PM
As I've been browsing YFull's new tree, I've noticed that this New Mexican now has been clustered with a new kit, YF80718, of unknown origins to form a new subclade, FT226426 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-FT226426/).

Yes! The other guy is Peruvian. I look forward to the day when we find a Jewish-identified person in that branch, but it’s very safe to say the origin is Sephardic.

hartaisarlag
08-31-2021, 08:38 PM
Three major updates in E-Y6923 land:

1. At the beginning of 2021, there were 10 apparent primary branches of the Ashkenazi branch E-Y6938. We now know that at least six cluster under a deep single-SNP sub-branch, E-Y179930. Two other branches are negative for this SNP; two more are pending confirmation.

2. The fifth and newest primary branch of E-Y6923, defined by a Sephardi Jew from Rhodes, now has another Big Y-pending member, who is, of all backgrounds, French-Canadian. We'll have more clarity on this front soon.

3. A Nebula Genomics sample uploaded to YFull has split the Ashkenazi branch E-Y6938. We don't know his background, but it's unlikely to be Ashkenazi—so now, we can only call the new, downstream branch, E-Z36126, which accounts for every other known E-Y6938+ person, an Ashkenazi branch. Hoping the sample will soon display a flag/language.

hartaisarlag
09-17-2021, 02:44 PM
4. It looks like a new Nebula sample is about to split the branch just a few SNPs upstream of what we currently call E-Y6926 (where currently, Jews and one Baluch family split ca. 3200 ybp). Stay tuned for the new upload’s background.