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Nqp15hhu
01-23-2019, 05:39 PM
Where I live, it's a fairly English area, but there appears to be multiple Irish descent English people and to me it is usually fairly obvious that they're Irish. You know, they've got the almond eyes, the pink pale skin and the dirty ginger hair.

To me, as a Northern Irishman this is quite odd because we don't actually have that many people who look like that. It seems to be more of a Southern Irish thing.

But I do find it quite odd that these English people would look so Irish, given that they're likely to be at least 2nd generation Irish. I also noticed this when I visited New York City.

spruithean
01-23-2019, 05:52 PM
I really don't think those phenotypic traits are restricted to Irish people. You can see that phenotype in Scots, English, Welsh, Dutch, Germans, Scandinavians, etc.

FionnSneachta
01-23-2019, 06:00 PM
Is dirty ginger meant to be a shade of ginger? The issue here is you don't actually know if they're of Irish descent unless you ask. You're making assumptions that they're of Irish descent. They could well be but you don't know. For example, Jess Glynne has pale skin and red hair but she is Ashkenazi Jewish and her surname was originally Goldstein.

Nqp15hhu
01-23-2019, 07:10 PM
This is based on skin complexion and eye colour also. It's fairly easy to spot stereotypical Irish people.

Even those who don't have ginger hair, often a give away is eye shape.

spruithean
01-23-2019, 08:20 PM
This is based on skin complexion and eye colour also. It's fairly easy to spot stereotypical Irish people.

Even those who don't have ginger hair, often a give away is eye shape.

I really don't agree at all. These phenotypic traits are not Irish exclusive. They are found elsewhere.

alan
01-23-2019, 10:12 PM
Almond eyes? Never heard that. The typical Irish eye shape is quite low from top to bottom, wide from side to side, moderately deep set, with the eyebrows set v close to the eyes on a sort of downwards slant from a high at the top of nose to a low at the outside nearer the ear - a sort of sad or slightly pained looking cast of eyes. It’s very dominant in Ireland, especially on women. Usually a deep blue or pale blue or pale green but quiet a few hazel in some areas. Almost never proper dark brown. The Irish eye type makes the eyes somehow prominent and twinkly despite not really being large and round

Nqp15hhu
01-23-2019, 10:20 PM
I really don't agree at all. These phenotypic traits are not Irish exclusive. They are found elsewhere.

Oh ok, so there is no thing as an Irish look then. Hence the British and Southern Irish are the same ethnicity.

alan
01-23-2019, 10:51 PM
Oh ok, so there is no thing as an Irish look then. Hence the British and Southern Irish are the same ethnicity.

There was a no such thing as a British look though. The British have local looks with quite major differences between one area and another. It’s think the Scots, Irish and northern English are similar in skin tone (often pale pink and often freckled when young)and dominance of light eyes and that ginger undertones (so many ginger beards on guys with brown head hair) you mention. I think that is a lot rarer in southern England

morganman3
01-23-2019, 11:24 PM
There was a no such thing as a British look though. The British have local looks with quite major differences between one area and another. It’s think the Scots, Irish and northern English are similar in skin tone (often pale pink and often freckled when young)and dominance of light eyes and that ginger undertones (so many ginger beards on guys with brown head hair) you mention. I think that is a lot rarer in southern England

Can you give me an example of a look you associate with Southern England in particular? I think all phenotypes in Britain and Ireland are found all over, just at differing rates.

spruithean
01-23-2019, 11:35 PM
Oh ok, so there is no thing as an Irish look then. Hence the British and Southern Irish are the same ethnicity.

Did I say that British and Irish were the same ethnicity? Why are you equating physical appearance with ethnicity? There are so many phenotypes within ethnic groups that walking around and guessing that someone is "this" or "that" is just not a sound argument IMO.

JoeyP37
01-24-2019, 01:45 AM
There was a no such thing as a British look though. The British have local looks with quite major differences between one area and another. It’s think the Scots, Irish and northern English are similar in skin tone (often pale pink and often freckled when young)and dominance of light eyes and that ginger undertones (so many ginger beards on guys with brown head hair) you mention. I think that is a lot rarer in southern England
My brother is one of those guys with a ginger beard and brown head hair-well, when he had hair. I'm 88% Northwest European from 23andMe, and as we are full siblings, I imagine he would be similar as well.

rms2
01-24-2019, 01:46 AM
One of the things that stood out to me the first time I went to Ireland (I've been there twice) was all the seriously good-looking girls I saw with red hair, freckles, and light colored eyes. Whoa!

ADW_1981
01-24-2019, 01:57 AM
A look that is nearly ubiquitous among British and Irish men is a high narrow forehead. Often this is accompanied with a dolichocephalic skull, and I've noted these men are often bald when they get older. Another look is mesocephalic skull with a broader forehead and a regular forehead height.

What is most perplexing is the depiction of BB NW European males being brachycephalic with a flat occipital. I rarely see this skull shape among NW Europeans at all.

Bollox79
01-24-2019, 02:51 AM
Interesting topic - since my mother's side has fairly recent (as opposed to some of the Colonial Pennsylvanians on my father's side (though those families include Scots-Irish settlers and a family who appears to have had three brothers who served in our Revolution - they were Fergusons) and early Colonials from the NE on my mother's mother's side - though her maternal line is "recently" from Ireland) Irish and Scots Highlander (MacAulay and MacDonald from Ontario and other places of Scottish settlement in Eastern Canada) on her father's side. We tend to be the very dark/blackish hair phenotype (though as we are discussing phenotypes can be found in different places) - which I think is interesting as O'Duibhir means "son or descendant of the dark or black colored one" which I take to mean hair color, eyes... etc... it would appear the O'Dwyers and O'Ryans are related on the male line and are a sub group of DF27 - with some other surnames in there.

This is my Grandfather Philip O'Dwyer - his father William Austin O'Dwyer Sr. was born in New York to Irish parents - O'Dwyers from Clare and formerly Kilnamanagh and Hayes/O'Hanrahan probably also from Clare (I have found two Philip O'Dwyers from Clare who could be my 3rd GGF Philip O'Dwyer married to Leonara - one in West Clare and one in East Clare - the one in the West was from Moyglassmore and there were Hayes in the parish records...). The O'Hanrahans were from Alta Villa, Ballingrane, Nantinan Parish, Co Limerick, Ireland. Both my GF Philip and his brother William "Bill" O'Dwyer were in WWII - GF Philip fought both behind enemy lines in Germany and also with Filipinos in the Pacific - we have letters written by a lady to my future grandmother mentioning that Grandfather had fought with her brother in the resistance versus the Japanese. I believe he was a staff Sergeant and he impersonated a superior officer to get his friend out of the Bastille. His friend Johnny Maderis spoke French and after a big bar fight they threw him in there (he had over heard some trash talk and from there it turned into a big fight) and Grandpa Phil owed him one because Johnny saved his life in combat. When the Army found out they gave him a choice - face a court marshal or finish out the War in the Pacific. That was why he was in the Pacific till the end of the War.

His brother Bill fought with the 45th Division - a quick summary of their actions: The 45th Division landed in North Africa, 22 June 1943, and trained at Arzew, French Morocco. It landed in Sicily, 10 July, in its first major amphibious operation and moved inland under minor opposition. The enemy resisted fiercely at Motta Hill, 26 July, before losing the four day battle of "Bloody Ridge." On 1 August, the Division withdrew for rest and patrols. On 10 September 1943, the second landing at Salerno occurred. Against stiff resistance, the 45th pushed to the Calore River, 27 September, crossed the Volturno River, 3 November, and took Venafro. Until 9 January 1944, the Division inched forward into the mountains reaching St. Elia north of Cassino before moving to a rest area. The 45th landed at Anzio, 22 January 1944, and for 4 months stood its ground against violent assaults. It went over to the attack, 23 May, crossed the Tiber River, 4 June, outflanking Rome and withdrew for rest and training on the 16th. The 45th participated in its fourth assault landing, 15 August 1944, at St. Maxime in Southern France. Against slight opposition, it spearheaded the drive for the Belfort Gap. It took the strongly defended city of Epinal, 24 September, crossed the Moselle River and entered the western foothills of the Vosges, taking Rambervillers on the 30th, and crossing the Mortagne River, 23 October. After a brief rest the 45th cracked the forts north of Mutzig, an anchor of the Maginot Line, 25 November, crossed the Zintzel River and pushed through the Maginot defenses. From 2 January 1945, the Division fought defensively along the German border, withdrawing to the Moder River.

Grand Uncle Bill won the Bronze Star at Anzio (and I think rank of Sergeant) and later was a 2nd Lt. and won the Silver Star in defense against the German operation Nordwind and he was KIA 14 Jan 1945 Germany. He crawled through machine fire more than once to render 1st aid to one of his men (a spotter for artillery) and then came back and went back with the stretcher team and after they left he stayed to call in fire, but unfortunately was mortally wounded. The first picture is of my Grandfather Philip and the second picture is of his brother in military uniform (on the left) over in Europe - William "Bill" O'Dwyer. I like to think they carried on the tradition of the O'Duibhirs as a famous fighting family from Kilnamanagh - I know the Irish Brigades in foreign Catholic armies had more than one O'Dwyer - 6 of them as officers in the founding/muster roll of Berwick's Regiment in the French Irish Brigade and several who fought for the Spanish army including two officers in the Grenadiers. 28575 28576

Bollox79
01-24-2019, 03:03 AM
Additionally my Grandfather Philip O'Dwyer's Grandfather McGuire born to Irish McGuires and those Scottish MacAulay/MacDonald families from Ontario - he was from Trenton, Ontario. My grandfather's mother was Isabel McGuire and her mother was a Dunleavy who married Francis McGuire. This is her father Francis J. McGuire. I believe he also had the "darker" look, but hard to tell with black and white photos... :-)! 28577

Nqp15hhu
01-24-2019, 08:58 AM
There was a no such thing as a British look though. The British have local looks with quite major differences between one area and another. It’s think the Scots, Irish and northern English are similar in skin tone (often pale pink and often freckled when young)and dominance of light eyes and that ginger undertones (so many ginger beards on guys with brown head hair) you mention. I think that is a lot rarer in southern England

I now live in Southern England where the Irish Ginger look is most definitely not native.

Nqp15hhu
01-31-2019, 10:06 AM
I now live in Southern England where the Irish Ginger look is most definitely not native.
Cringe lol