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aaronbee2010
01-30-2019, 04:25 PM
Hey guys,

My maternal Uncle recieved his 23andMe results today. His Y-DNA assignment is R-CTS1843. I've seen that this is a subclade of R-Z2103, a rare Indo-Iranian branch of R-M269 which is seen quite a lot in the Near East. I believe R-Z2103 makes up almost all of the R-M269 seen in Iranians (descendants of Indo-Iranians), although it's much rarer in Indo-Aryans (also descendants of Indo-Iranians), who are dominated by R1a-Z93.

From data me and others have collected on paternal haplogroups in my ethnoreligious group (Punjabi Jatt Sikh's), R1a-Z93 accounts for around 40% of all men in this group, whereas R1b-Z2103 is almost nonexistant here - there are only two R1b Jatts I've seen, and one of them is my maternal uncle. Some Brahmins have R1b, and Rajasthani Lambani's (37%!), Tajik Pamiris and Pathans have it too.

I'm no expert on R1b myself. I'm hoping an actual expert can enlighten me on exactly how common this lineage is in India?

P.S: Yes, I am getting him a YSEQ test down the line :P

Joe B
01-30-2019, 04:41 PM
Hey guys,

My maternal Uncle recieved his 23andMe results today. His Y-DNA assignment is R-CTS1843. I've seen that this is a subclade of R-Z2103, a rare Indo-Iranian branch of R-M269 which is seen quite a lot in the Near East. I believe R-Z2103 makes up almost all of the R-M269 seen in Iranians (descendants of Indo-Iranians), although it's much rarer in Indo-Aryans (also descendants of Indo-Iranians), who are dominated by R1a-Z93.

From data me and others have collected on paternal haplogroups in my ethnoreligious group (Punjabi Jatt Sikh's), R1a-Z93 accounts for around 40% of all men in this group, whereas R1b-Z2103 is practically nonexistant here.

I'm no expert on R1b myself. I'm hoping an actual expert can enlighten me on exactly how common this lineage is in India?

P.S: Yes, I am getting him a YSEQ test down the line :P
CTS1843 is another name for Z2109. R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2105>Z2106>Z2108, Z2109/CTS1843
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/
Z2103 is rare on the subcontinent, but it keeps showing up. Usually with a very distant time to most recent common ancestor to other Z2103 haplotypes elsewhere.
How deeply do you plan on testing your uncle?

aaronbee2010
01-30-2019, 04:46 PM
CTS1843 is another name for Z2109. R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2105>Z2106>Z2108, Z2109/CTS1843
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/
Z2103 is rare on the subcontinent, but it keeps showing up. Usually with a very distant time to most recent common ancestor to other Z2103 haplotypes elsewhere.
How deeply do you plan on testing your uncle?

I might get a YSEQ test for now.

If Y-DNA sequencing gets cheaper and better, I'll do that in the future too! I also wish to sequence my fathers mtDNA too.

parasar
01-30-2019, 05:45 PM
I might get a YSEQ test for now.

If Y-DNA sequencing gets cheaper and better, I'll do that in the future too! I also wish to sequence my fathers mtDNA too.

There is one Gujarati on the YFull tree - NA20866.
I believe most subcontinental R1bs are on the Z2103 branch. M73 and L51 are less frequent. V88 is absent. But some very deep R1b branching is also present.

MitchellSince1893
01-30-2019, 05:53 PM
Maybe your ancestry is from the Mughal period.

aaronbee2010
01-30-2019, 07:09 PM
Maybe your ancestry is from the Mughal period.

I appreciate your input, but thats extremely unlikely. Sikhs and Mughals had a lot of bad blood with each other so it's a given they didn't mix.

It's most likely a much more ancient line, connected to Steppe migrations alongside R1a-Z93.

parasar
01-30-2019, 09:22 PM
I appreciate your input, but thats extremely unlikely. Sikhs and Mughals had a lot of bad blood with each other so it's a given they didn't mix.

It's most likely a much more ancient line, connected to Steppe migrations alongside R1a-Z93.

Or potentially even earlier than Z93.
We had R1b reported in both Iron Age (IA) Swat and at Dara i Kur Afghanistan.
At Loebanr_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan and at Darra i Kur 2850-2460 calBCE Afghanistan

aaronbee2010
01-30-2019, 10:09 PM
Or potentially even earlier than Z93.
We had R1b reported in both Iron Age (IA) Swat and at Dara i Kur Afghanistan.
At Loebanr_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan and at Darra i Kur 2850-2460 calBCE Afghanistan

So could this possibly be a BMAC lineage? Or later than that?

parasar
01-30-2019, 10:26 PM
So could this possibly be a BMAC lineage? Or later than that?

The Darr-i-Kur sample is much earlier than BMAC (2300–1700 BC) so earlier is possible too. In the Yamna timeframe.

aaronbee2010
01-30-2019, 10:45 PM
The Darr-i-Kur sample is much earlier than BMAC (23001700 BC) so earlier is possible too. In the Yamna timeframe.

I know this is not quite related to the thread here but do you think my R2a-Y1376 is also a possible BMAC line?

It seems to have a NW-biased distribution in South Asia (the most of many L295- subclade of R2a-Y8766). L295- subclades of R2a are mainly seen (according to FTDNA) in upper (mostly Hindu) castes (i.e. 2 North Indian Rajputs, 2 NI Vaniyas, a Punjabi Brahmin and a Punjabi Khatri), so this suggest's that this may be a rare Indo-Aryan branch of R2a?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y1376

R2a was absolutely non-existent in the IE homeland where R1a and R1b came from. I know with 95%+ certainty that R2a-Y8766 was a Zagros line, so I'm guessing my line perhaps went from the Zagros to the BMAC region, and then Proto-IA's picked it up when they mixed with the locals? Thats my guess on how IA's would've picked up my line (if they did pick it up from there). How do the TMRCA values line up in your opinion?

My line seems to have a similar distribution to L-M357 and R1a-Y7 albeit much rarer.

I would appreciate your expertise as my Y-DNA is an absolute enigma to me. At least I have more of an idea where my uncle got his R1b from.

pegasus
01-30-2019, 11:14 PM
I know this is not quite related to the thread here but do you think my R2a-Y1376 is also a possible BMAC line?

It seems to have a NW-biased distribution in South Asia (the most of many L295- subclade of R2a-Y8766). L295- subclades of R2a are mainly seen (according to FTDNA) in upper (mostly Hindu) castes (i.e. 2 North Indian Rajputs, 2 NI Vaniyas, a Punjabi Brahmin and a Punjabi Khatri), so this suggest's that this may be a rare Indo-Aryan branch of R2a?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y1376

R2a was absolutely non-existent in the IE homeland where R1a and R1b came from. I know with 95%+ certainty that R2a-Y8766 was a Zagros line, so I'm guessing my line perhaps went from the Zagros to the BMAC region, and then Proto-IA's picked it up when they mixed with the locals? Thats my guess on how IA's would've picked up my line (if they did pick it up from there). How do the TMRCA values line up in your opinion?

My line seems to have a similar distribution to L-M357 and R1a-Y7 albeit much rarer.

I would appreciate your expertise as my Y-DNA is an absolute enigma to me. At least I have more of an idea where my uncle got his R1b from.

In your case extremely likely, some uniparental markers piggy backed with incoming IIr related populations and you or one of your parents look to have very similar results to the Udegram Steppe shifted sample and you answered your own question and thats exactly how it very likely went down.

parasar
01-31-2019, 01:19 AM
I know this is not quite related to the thread here but do you think my R2a-Y1376 is also a possible BMAC line?

It seems to have a NW-biased distribution in South Asia (the most of many L295- subclade of R2a-Y8766). L295- subclades of R2a are mainly seen (according to FTDNA) in upper (mostly Hindu) castes (i.e. 2 North Indian Rajputs, 2 NI Vaniyas, a Punjabi Brahmin and a Punjabi Khatri), so this suggest's that this may be a rare Indo-Aryan branch of R2a?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y1376

R2a was absolutely non-existent in the IE homeland where R1a and R1b came from. I know with 95%+ certainty that R2a-Y8766 was a Zagros line, so I'm guessing my line perhaps went from the Zagros to the BMAC region, and then Proto-IA's picked it up when they mixed with the locals? Thats my guess on how IA's would've picked up my line (if they did pick it up from there). How do the TMRCA values line up in your opinion?

My line seems to have a similar distribution to L-M357 and R1a-Y7 albeit much rarer.

I would appreciate your expertise as my Y-DNA is an absolute enigma to me. At least I have more of an idea where my uncle got his R1b from.

L-M357 is present in Swat and R2 is too. IMO these were all at that time Indo Aryan lines. They didn't have to be picked up by anyone.
For sure we will know when data from Fars and the Mitanni area comes up. My thinking is that R1a will be absent in the Persians and Mitannians too, but that J, G, L, R2 and even possibly H will be present. The alternative, (to me) is difficult to believe, that R1a was the only Indo-Aryan line and the rest were picked up on the way.

aaronbee2010
01-31-2019, 02:03 AM
L-M357 is present in Swat and R2 is too. IMO these were all at that time Indo Aryan lines. They didn't have to be picked up by anyone.
For sure we will know when data from Fars and the Mitanni area comes up. My thinking is that R1a will be absent in the Persians and Mitannians too, but that J, G, L, R2 and even possibly H will be present. The alternative, (to me) is difficult to believe, that R1a was the only Indo-Aryan line and the rest were picked up on the way.

As pegasus said, it's likely my branch of R2a is Indo-Aryan, so I'm sure that it was present in the Swat Valley from 1400BC onwards.

I meant to ask how the Indo-Aryans managed to get my R2a in the first place. Would you say the Oxus civilisation that predates the Swat IA's is the best candidate? Apologies for my sub-par wording.

pegasus
01-31-2019, 05:07 AM
As pegasus said, it's likely my branch of R2a is Indo-Aryan, so I'm sure that it was present in the Swat Valley from 1400BC onwards.

I meant to ask how the Indo-Aryans managed to get my R2a in the first place. Would you say the Oxus civilisation that predates the Swat IA's is the best candidate? Apologies for my sub-par wording.

While R2a is not THE Indo Aryan uniparental marker, your subclade is rare, and localized and given you and your dad's results are almost exactly like those of a Swat Indo Aryan man found 3.0-3.2 Kya its very likely being picked up from the BMAC, I made a post on this 2 days back.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16399-The-Punjab&p=542537&viewfull=1#post542537

aaronbee2010
03-13-2019, 03:53 PM
UPDATE:

YSEQ has confirmed my maternal uncle to indeed be CTS1843+.

Given this, whats the best course of action to take regarding further analysis? I'm guessing an R1b-Z2103 panel from YSEQ.

The problem here is that most SNPs included in the panel are downstream of CTS7822, whereas all Indian samples on YFull are CTS7822-. I feel like it may only be worth testing for a few individual SNPs as opposed to testing with a whole panel as the majority of the SNPs it tests for are very likely to be a waste of money.

Also bear in mind that I'm not the richest person right now (I blew most of my expendable money on a 173 Dante Labs kit for myself, I sure hope they don't go bankrupt on me). Being a university student is painful.

aaronbee2010
03-19-2019, 11:25 AM
Bump?

Piquerobi
06-27-2019, 09:27 AM
Some Brahmins have R1b, and Rajasthani Lambani's (37%!)

That's quite high, I wonder what is the predominant subclade among them.

aaronbee2010
06-27-2019, 12:09 PM
That's quite high, I wonder what is the predominant subclade among them.

My guess would be various subclades below R-Z2103, including my uncles R-Z2109.

R-L51 appears to be almost non-existent in India, with any examples most likely being a product of the British Raj, perhaps?

I'm not sure if there are any Indo-Iranian branches of R-L51 or not. I've never heard of them but there are many people here who know a lot more about R1b than me.

kostop
07-19-2019, 12:42 PM
I just got news from 23andme that according to their analysis I belong to R-CTS1843
Up until now, all other results (Geno2, FTDNA) placed me in R-CTS7822
I'm confused now...

aaronbee2010
07-19-2019, 03:35 PM
I just got news from 23andme that according to their analysis I belong to R-CTS1843
Up until now, all other results (Geno2, FTDNA) placed me in R-CTS7822
I'm confused now...

R-CTS7822 is directly below R-CTS1843. Geno2 and FTDNA gave you a slightly more accurate result.

aaronbee2010
08-08-2019, 12:22 PM
Update: He's been confirmed Y35099+ since two months ago. He checked the account when I asked him about it just now because it got lost in his emails.

Here's the clade on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y35099/

Does anyone here have more information on it, apart from the two Hindu Punjabi samples on YFull?

Silesian
08-08-2019, 01:11 PM
Update: He's been confirmed Y35099+ since two months ago. He checked the account when I asked him about it just now because it got lost in his emails.

Here's the clade on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y35099/

Does anyone here have more information on it, apart from the two Hindu Punjabi samples on YFull?. Somehow he is related to a branch of Yamnaya and Eastern Europe and Ossetians R1b -z2110 How ,and where the lines split ? It would be nice to see how they are connected to the Swedes .

SpinosaurusN3H1
08-22-2019, 06:54 PM
Hey guys,

My maternal Uncle recieved his 23andMe results today. His Y-DNA assignment is R-CTS1843. I've seen that this is a subclade of R-Z2103, a rare Indo-Iranian branch of R-M269 which is seen quite a lot in the Near East. I believe R-Z2103 makes up almost all of the R-M269 seen in Iranians (descendants of Indo-Iranians), although it's much rarer in Indo-Aryans (also descendants of Indo-Iranians), who are dominated by R1a-Z93.

From data me and others have collected on paternal haplogroups in my ethnoreligious group (Punjabi Jatt Sikh's), R1a-Z93 accounts for around 40% of all men in this group, whereas R1b-Z2103 is almost nonexistant here - there are only two R1b Jatts I've seen, and one of them is my maternal uncle. Some Brahmins have R1b, and Rajasthani Lambani's (37%!), Tajik Pamiris and Pathans have it too.

I'm no expert on R1b myself. I'm hoping an actual expert can enlighten me on exactly how common this lineage is in India?

P.S: Yes, I am getting him a YSEQ test down the line :P

The 37% R1b Lambadi samples were from Andhra Pradesh. High R1b percentages detected among Hazaras (32%) Agharias (30%) and Newars (Nepal) (10%). All these are rather small communities.

aaronbee2010
08-26-2019, 10:35 AM
The 37% R1b Lambadi samples were from Andhra Pradesh. High R1b percentages detected among Hazaras (32%) Agharias (30%) and Newars (Nepal) (10%). All these are rather small communities.

Thanks for the correction! My bad!

SpinosaurusN3H1
08-27-2019, 05:05 PM
Thanks for the correction! My bad!

You are most welcome dear

aaronbee2010
11-11-2019, 05:39 PM
I've just purchased a Dante Labs kit for my maternal uncle - I'll let you all know when he's on YFull.

My uncle (and two other Punjabi Hindus - most likely Khatris) are the only people on YFull who are Y14415+ and Y14512-, so hopefully this helps you Z2103's out a bit :)

aaronbee2010
03-22-2020, 02:01 PM
My maternal uncles Dante Labs 30x results arrived around a month ago, but I just got his hg38 BAM two days ago. I then extracted Y-DNA and mtDNA data into a separate file and submitted his results to YFull as soon as I could. Therefore, I thought it would be a good time to make another inquiry about his Y-DNA.

My maternal uncle comes under R1b-Y35099 (his YFull ID is YF72260). The only other samples under this subclade are two other Indian Punjabi samples from an ENA BioProject titled "The South Asian genome: Low Coverage Whole Genome Sequencing" with ENA study accession code PRJEB5738.

YFull and FTDNA lack dates for R1b-Y35099 (with FTDNA lacking the subclade altogether) but YFull dates the subclade above it (R1b-Y14415) at 5000 ybp and Scaled Innovation dates it at 3200 ybp. I'm more inclined to believe YFull as their date lines up much better with the R1a-Z93 subclades found in South Asia (YFull and Scaled Innovation date R1a-Z93 at 4600 and 4900 ybp respectively).

Looking at the path predictions from PhyloGeographer and Scaled Innovation, the former puts the origin of R1b-Y14415 around West Turkey and the latter around East Croatia. Considering the presence of R1b-Z2103 in Yamnaya, I'm guessing the origin of this subclade (and the split between R1b-Y35099 and R1b-Y14420) would've occurred around East Europe. Whether the split occurred closer to East Croatia or Southwest Russia, I'm not entirely sure.

Looking at distributions of R1b-Y14415 (xY35099) on YFull and FTDNA, it appears to be seen around West and Central Europe. Could it's presence in that region possibly be attributed to the Corded Ware culture?

https://indo-european.eu/2018/04/early-indo-iranian-formed-mainly-by-r1a-z93-and-r1b-z2103-and-corded-ware-out-of-indo-european-speaking-migrations/

This appears to suggest that R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 were both prevalent in the Corded Ware culture, and R1a-Z93 is very common in South Asia (my ethnic group has roughly 40% of Y-DNA coming somewhere under R1a-Z93), so I'm guessing my uncles subclade came from there too?

I'm writing all of this as I would like to hear the thoughts of people who are far more knowledgeable with R1b than I'll ever be when it comes to my uncles subclade origins (i.e. where did it enter South Asia from?). To me, it looks like an East European lineage that travelled alongside R1a-Z93 towards South Asia. Again, I look forward to hearing anyone elses thoughts. Thank you very much!

https://i.gyazo.com/a8265c70bcdca18db7641a5e47ae464b.png

https://i.gyazo.com/67683b9c10b038c17f9a914428bee4c6.png

https://i.gyazo.com/3b0eaae385968dc38ff81917ca18c042.jpg