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Farroukh
02-03-2019, 05:05 AM
Based on current information, Romani subclade is H-Y17916. It formed ~4kya probably in Northern India and it's TMRCA is ~600 years. This age calculated only based on two results from Near East and Europe.

Probably, other similar groups in Asia (Doma people and others) have their own branches.

tipirneni
03-02-2019, 09:16 PM
most of them under H-SK1225 https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-SK1225/ with additional del event

Jatt1
03-02-2019, 09:57 PM
most of them under H-SK1225 https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-SK1225/ with additional del event

Who do you think these gypsi people are originally, their original tribe or group, are these subclades found among Vanjaras?

tipirneni
03-02-2019, 10:27 PM
Who do you think these gypsi people are originally, their original tribe or group, are these subclades found among Vanjaras?

they might be mix of many castes not just Banjaras. To travel far off places without losing language & tribal customs require strong social grouping.

Mingle
03-02-2019, 10:45 PM
Who do you think these gypsi people are originally, their original tribe or group, are these subclades found among Vanjaras?

They're usually connected to the Domba/Dom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domba) people of northern South Asia as far as I'm aware.

Something interesting from the above link:


Many are nomadic and peripatetic groups in Uttar Pradesh are said to be of Dom origin such as the Bangali, Bhantu, Bazigar, Habura, Kanjar, and Sansi. It could also be that term Dom is generically used to describe any peripatetic nomad, as all these groups mentioned are distinct and strictly endogamous.

It seems like the term Dom is a very broad term that refers to a variety of "low caste" Indic tribes that are not directly related to each other with their main similarities being that jobs that they perform and their geographic distribution. This link (https://sites.google.com/site/banjarathetribeofindia/) sort of distinguishes the Banjaras from the Dombas, but says that they're very similar and are grouped together.

I'm not sure if the term Dom or any of its cognates have common usage in any parts of the Indian Subcontinent, but if they don't, the reason is probably because they're relatively common there and due to more frequent contact with them, the non-Dom locals began to eventually distinguish them by their specific tribe (Kanjar, Sansi, etc.) instead of using the more generic term Dom. Due to them being relatively less in common in Pashtunistan, West Asia, and Europe; the more generic terms Lam, Dom, Domari, Romani, Roma, etc. are used over there.

Jatt1
03-03-2019, 06:07 AM
They're usually connected to the Domba/Dom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domba) people of northern South Asia as far as I'm aware.

Something interesting from the above link:



It seems like the term Dom is a very broad term that refers to a variety of "low caste" Indic tribes that are not directly related to each other with their main similarities being that jobs that they perform and their geographic distribution. This link (https://sites.google.com/site/banjarathetribeofindia/) sort of distinguishes the Banjaras from the Dombas, but says that they're very similar and are grouped together.

I'm not sure if the term Dom or any of its cognates have common usage in any parts of the Indian Subcontinent, but if they don't, the reason is probably because they're relatively common there and due to more frequent contact with them, the non-Dom locals began to eventually distinguish them by their specific tribe (Kanjar, Sansi, etc.) instead of using the more generic term Dom. Due to them being relatively less in common in Pashtunistan, West Asia, and Europe; the more generic terms Lam, Dom, Domari, Romani, Roma, etc. are used over there.

Never heard of a Dom in Punjab, Kanjar are basically into entertainment and prostitution while Sansi are considered criminals.

tipirneni
03-03-2019, 06:19 PM
They're usually connected to the Domba/Dom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domba) people of northern South Asia as far as I'm aware.

Something interesting from the above link:



It seems like the term Dom is a very broad term that refers to a variety of "low caste" Indic tribes that are not directly related to each other with their main similarities being that jobs that they perform and their geographic distribution. This link (https://sites.google.com/site/banjarathetribeofindia/) sort of distinguishes the Banjaras from the Dombas, but says that they're very similar and are grouped together.

I'm not sure if the term Dom or any of its cognates have common usage in any parts of the Indian Subcontinent, but if they don't, the reason is probably because they're relatively common there and due to more frequent contact with them, the non-Dom locals began to eventually distinguish them by their specific tribe (Kanjar, Sansi, etc.) instead of using the more generic term Dom. Due to them being relatively less in common in Pashtunistan, West Asia, and Europe; the more generic terms Lam, Dom, Domari, Romani, Roma, etc. are used over there.

Things are not clear. These are just estimates from some anthropologists

Farroukh
03-05-2019, 01:55 AM
Dom is also selfname of Gypsy people of Azerbaijan and other Western Asian regions.

Artmar
01-04-2020, 12:45 PM
I guess that new YFull entries from Scotland and Switzerland belong to people of distant Romani background?

I thought that their H clades are less diverse, though SK1255 isn't that old either as it is estimated to be 6400 ybp.

Shamash
01-04-2020, 05:35 PM
If the European H1 samples under SK1225 are all of Romani descent then Romani H1 seems to be quite diverse.

Shamash
01-06-2020, 11:28 AM
I guess that new YFull entries from Scotland and Switzerland belong to people of distant Romani background?

I thought that their H clades are less diverse, though SK1255 isn't that old either as it is estimated to be 6400 ybp.

After checking the samples I think that only the Scottish sample is Romani but the other European sample under H-SK1225 (YF67622) might belong to a descendant of migrants from India of the 20th century. Might be interesting to know what the background of subclade H-Y17916 is? One sample is from London the other from Israel.

I just checked this thread where the specific H1a-Romani subclade is defined as H-PH124:

https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/paternal-lineages-y-dna/paternal-lineage-y-dna-str-advanced/22673-romani-h-ph124

There are unfortunately only two Yfull-samples but their TMRCA of 1250 ybp is in line with traditional historiography which places the Out-of-India-migration somewhere between 500 and 1000AD:

35748

Interesting that the closest sample (YF14879) from the Indian subcontinent is from Pakistan, the North-West Frontier Province (now Khyber Pakhtunkhwa).

TMRCA with the two Romani samples is somewhere 3500ybp. That could mean that this H1a subclade, H-PH4549, has been for a long time in the Nort-Western part of the Indian subcontinent.

I also have an autosomal match from exactly that area.

Koolmets21
01-08-2020, 02:15 PM
After checking the samples I think that only the Scottish sample is Romani but the other European sample under H-SK1225 (YF67622) might belong to a descendant of migrants from India of the 20th century. Might be interesting to know what the background of subclade H-Y17916 is? One sample is from London the other from Israel.

I just checked this thread where the specific H1a-Romani subclade is defined as H-PH124:

https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/paternal-lineages-y-dna/paternal-lineage-y-dna-str-advanced/22673-romani-h-ph124

There are unfortunately only two Yfull-samples but their TMRCA of 1250 ybp is in line with traditional historiography which places the Out-of-India-migration somewhere between 500 and 1000AD:

35748

Interesting that the closest sample (YF14879) from the Indian subcontinent is from Pakistan, the North-West Frontier Province (now Khyber Pakhtunkhwa).

TMRCA with the two Romani samples is somewhere 3500ybp. That could mean that this H1a subclade, H-PH4549, has been for a long time in the Nort-Western part of the Indian subcontinent.

I also have an autosomal match from exactly that area.

FYI I am one of the two samples that you boxed in red - i am id: YF64843.

My direct paternal great grandparent is the son of Scottish ancestors (humble opinion is that both his parents were Scottish Romanichal based on names and Y-DNA from paternal side), and grew up in Rockingham Co., Virginia.

Zorro
02-07-2020, 03:36 AM
The new Yfull entry for H-Z12533 based on sample YF67622 is not Romany at all. No known connection whatsoever to the Romany population in the last 225 years. This sample currently has no Y DNA matches above 12 panels (25 - 111 and Big Y700 = zero matches). The language spoken between 1800 to 1900 was French and later English. Yfull has been processing the STR results since receiving sample in November 2019 but still no conclusion to STR matches. But I am sure we will have zero STR matches due to the seemingly rare STR values we got on FTDNA.

Koolmets21
02-13-2020, 01:53 PM
The new Yfull entry for H-Z12533 based on sample YF67622 is not Romany at all. No known connection whatsoever to the Romany population in the last 225 years. This sample currently has no Y DNA matches above 12 panels (25 - 111 and Big Y700 = zero matches). The language spoken between 1800 to 1900 was French and later English. Yfull has been processing the STR results since receiving sample in November 2019 but still no conclusion to STR matches. But I am sure we will have zero STR matches due to the seemingly rare STR values we got on FTDNA.

Interesting - thanks for the update!

Zorro
02-19-2020, 07:01 AM
Just thought I might share that in FTDNA under SK-1225 there is a DNA sample whose MRCA is a de Silva/Carvajal from Portugal. This caught my attention since Yfull has a new sample under H-FT167357 also from Portugal. I am quite certain that both these samples from Portugal as well as the sample from H-Z12533 who are all pointing to Europe but none of them are Romany. Also in FTDNA in the Mexico Project, Iberian Peninsular and Potugal projects there are others who would definitely fall under Sk1225 who are not Romany. I dare say there will be more people who are not Romany but come from Europe under SK-1225 and who are not part of recent out of India migrations. I would add that these people I speak about have some ancient connection to the Jewish people and Eastern Europe, Caucasus and former Soviet regions. Eg. Poland, Armenia and Azerbaijan. I might further add that H-Z12533 DNA sample has more than 95% of autosomal DNA matches on Myheritage from Ashkanazi Jewish people from all over the world.

36428

Farroukh
06-01-2020, 09:06 AM
most of them under H-SK1225 https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-SK1225/ with additional del event
Yes, you are right. Scottish cants, Scandinavian Kale and Moldovan Kotlar peoples are bearers of H-PH124. PH124 really connected with Y17916 at SK1225 point.
It seems the first Romani progenitor group in Europe was very diverse and contained many H-M82 subclades.

Farroukh
06-01-2020, 09:12 AM
The new Yfull entry for H-Z12533 based on sample YF67622 is not Romany at all. No known connection whatsoever to the Romany population in the last 225 years. This sample currently has no Y DNA matches above 12 panels (25 - 111 and Big Y700 = zero matches). The language spoken between 1800 to 1900 was French and later English. Yfull has been processing the STR results since receiving sample in November 2019 but still no conclusion to STR matches. But I am sure we will have zero STR matches due to the seemingly rare STR values we got on FTDNA.
Very interesting case. Did he order Family Finder? Maybe he had Manouche (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people_in_France) paternal ancestry in the past?

eastara
06-01-2020, 10:37 AM
Having no Roma autosomally or in family records is no proof, it is quite possible some Ggreatgrandfather was Roma, however the South Asian admixture was lost in time. My observations regarding Roma admixture in Balkan people is that the Roma paternal H1 haplogroup is more common among those identifying as non Roma, than typical Roma mtDNA M5. This is because the child always stayed with its mother if it is a result of a casual relationship or rape, and men can't pass their mtDNA haplogroup. Currently we are waiting for the Big Y from a Bulgarian, who has no evident Roma admixture autosomally and we will see if he matches the British Roma (who also have no South Asian, but have a family Romanichel tradition), who are a close STR match.

J Man
06-01-2020, 11:38 AM
There are also specific Romany J2a subclades as well which is interesting.

eastara
06-19-2020, 10:55 AM
The Bulgarian H1a results are out and yes, he is from the Roma branch PH124. On FTDNA there is already some substructure as several people have taken the Big Y test. Interesting, The Bulgarian is from the same branch as a British Roma with the surname Ingram. From the same branch are also 2 Finns, who form a new subbranch FT26956 below. Several British Roma form a parallel branch BY153075. There are also a couple of PH124* - British Roma with surname Locke and a Moldavian. The closest to PH124 is a guy from Pakistan.
I wondered how the Finish Roma are connected to the British, but that is written on Wikipedia about them: The original Finnish Kale were Romanisael who came to Finland via Sweden after being deported from Sweden in the 17th century. The ancestors of Finnish, Swedish and Norwegian Romani are English and Scottish Romani, who were deported from the kingdoms of Scotland and England. In 1637, all Romani groups were declared outlaws who could be hanged without trial; this practice was discontinued in 1748
https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-PH4549/

So the mystery remain how the Bulgarian is connected to them, his distance to the Finn and the Scottish Roma is only about 8 Private variants, probably 500 years back. His ancestry is actually from Greek Macedonia, around the speculated entry point of Gypsies in Europe.
However, it is quite possible there are other, undiscovered H1a branches among the Roma, which are not so close, several Roma haplotypes from the old study are even not H-M82, but given as H-M52 only.

Koolmets21
08-26-2020, 02:39 AM
id:YF64843 is me from your link and on FT-DNA I am part of the BY153075 H-M82 downstream Romany branch related to the Bailey's. I'd like to know how I relate to the Bulgarian, Finn and further back the guy from Pakistan too! Argh ha lol

kamil154
08-26-2020, 03:02 AM
This new spreadsheet complation courtesy of aaronbee2010 has quite a few H-M82 matches across Pakistan:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/14i6IbxT7EXthj6mcN_nyuZhTeVUDnEXn3jmqvjEKV4A/htmlview#gid=799017964

I myself am downstream from H-M82, although my fathers paternal ancestors have a family tree that claims direct descent from Prithviraj Chauhan, a king from Rajasthan in the 1100's, whose descendents are considered "Chauhan Rajputs".

Afaik though, H1a-M82 forms a majority among the Banjara of Rajasthan and Meghwals of Gujarat, but not among the Kshatriya Rajput warrior class of Rajasthan that Prithviraj belonged to. The Banjaras were considered fine horsemen, and it could be that my ancestor was one of the soldiers from his cavalry who later on claimed to descend from him.

Or, it could be true as the family records claim, in which case Prithviraj might have been from Haplogroup H. No one really knows. I have two other Chauhan Rajputs from Pakistan on this forum, but they both belong to Haplogroup R2. I am from a different haplogroup from those two, but I am also the only one who has a family tree tracing my ancestry back 900 years.

Haplogroup H is a really early Haplogroup in South Asia which probably entered during the Paleolithic. It is likely the first lineage to have replaced the Haplogroup C and D lineages that first peopled Southern Asia. While it usually forms a majority only among scheduled castes and tribals in deeper pockets in Andhra Pradesh, Gujarat and Rajasthan, it is also one of those lineages that will pop up anytime in any part of South/Central Asia among Indo-Aryan, Dardic, Dravidian, Austro-Asiatic or even Easten Iranic language speakers, just because of how old and widespread it once was.

eastara
09-04-2020, 12:21 PM
The new paper based on complete mitochondrial and Y chromosome Roma sequences is out. Regarding H1a it is not very clear what they found, as are using ISOGG names only.

Sex-biased patterns shaped the genetic history of Roma

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-71066-y#MOESM2

In contrast, the single MSY lineage present in the Roma that went out of India, H1a1a4b2, has recent divergent sub-branches private to the Roma population (Fig. 3B, Supplementary Table S6). Besides these differences, the migration out of India has left genetic traces in both uniparental makers, as evidenced by the star-like divergence patterns in the M5a1b and H1a1a4b2 Roma lineages (Fig. 3). The analysis of Ne dynamics reveals a flat Bayesian skyline plot (BSP) for the South Asian Roma mtDNA lineages (Supplementary Fig. S3A-B), although the low sample size and number of segregating sites might mask the changes in population size, and the Ne absolute numbers are not comparable22. MSY BSP shows a continuous expansion after the diaspora out of India (around 1,500 ya) (Supplementary Figure S3C).
Formerly undescribed phylogenetic variants are detected in the three main Roma lineages. Within H1a-M2853, we describe a new Roma-specific branch defined by 18 polymorphisms, absent in the reference panel populations, which we propose to call H1a1a4b2d (Supplementary Table S9). Moreover, three sub-branches of H1a1a4b2d are observed: the first formed by 6 Vlax samples and defined by 6 SNPs, the second group with 7 individuals and 2 common mutations, and the last sub-branch defined by 26618569C carried by 6 males. Within the last sub-branch, 3 private variants are present in a group of 3 Spanish Roma (Supplementary Figure S6B).

kamil154
09-04-2020, 03:29 PM
The new paper based on complete mitochondrial and Y chromosome Roma sequences is out. Regarding H1a it is not very clear what they found, as are using ISOGG names only.

Sex-biased patterns shaped the genetic history of Roma

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-71066-y#MOESM2

In contrast, the single MSY lineage present in the Roma that went out of India, H1a1a4b2, has recent divergent sub-branches private to the Roma population (Fig. 3B, Supplementary Table S6). Besides these differences, the migration out of India has left genetic traces in both uniparental makers, as evidenced by the star-like divergence patterns in the M5a1b and H1a1a4b2 Roma lineages (Fig. 3). The analysis of Ne dynamics reveals a flat Bayesian skyline plot (BSP) for the South Asian Roma mtDNA lineages (Supplementary Fig. S3A-B), although the low sample size and number of segregating sites might mask the changes in population size, and the Ne absolute numbers are not comparable22. MSY BSP shows a continuous expansion after the diaspora out of India (around 1,500 ya) (Supplementary Figure S3C).
Formerly undescribed phylogenetic variants are detected in the three main Roma lineages. Within H1a-M2853, we describe a new Roma-specific branch defined by 18 polymorphisms, absent in the reference panel populations, which we propose to call H1a1a4b2d (Supplementary Table S9). Moreover, three sub-branches of H1a1a4b2d are observed: the first formed by 6 Vlax samples and defined by 6 SNPs, the second group with 7 individuals and 2 common mutations, and the last sub-branch defined by 26618569C carried by 6 males. Within the last sub-branch, 3 private variants are present in a group of 3 Spanish Roma (Supplementary Figure S6B).

I'm H1a1a4b2c1a, so almost immediately upstream.