View Full Version : Q-L804 as possible descendants of early migrants from Greenland?

02-03-2019, 05:26 AM
Dear friends,
Let me share my old speculative scenario about Q-L804 origin.

This haplogroup is too old (formation period 15 kya, brother branch of Q-M3 from New World), but it's TMRCA is extremely young (3,2 kya).

All living tested persons are from Norwegian sea costal region (Britain& Scandinavia). It guides me to consider them as descendants of a migrant from Greenland.

Eskimo people are known as good sea walkers and maybe one group of them moved from Greenland to pre-Germanic Northern Europe?

There are also the controversial theory about originof Q-L804 in Western Siberia with longlong way migration to Northern Europe.

02-04-2019, 08:34 AM
The thing is all the ancient eskimo samples from Saqqaq till Dorset culture are some sort of Q1a1 clade.

02-04-2019, 04:24 PM
Which SNP labels Q1a1?

02-04-2019, 05:19 PM
Which SNP labels Q1a1?

Q-F746 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-F746/)

02-04-2019, 05:24 PM
Q-NWT01 probably, samples are from this paper. http://science.sciencemag.org/content/345/6200/1255832/tab-figures-data

02-05-2019, 01:21 AM
Perhaps, Q-L804 completely expired in Greenland due to extremely hard life conditions in the past.

Also there is no Q-L804 from Siberia too. It guides me to place it homeland in the New Wirld like it's brother line Q-M3.

02-05-2019, 02:33 AM
Greenland was uninhabitable for a long time. The first occupation was by the Palaeo-Eskimo Saqqaq and Independence I cultures about 2500 BC. The only Y DNA from this period I know of is Saqqaq-1, who had Q1a1-NWT01, it is possible that they also had other haplogroups. These people did, in fact, largely or entirely die out; at least they left no clear mitochondrial or autosomal trace in modern Inuit.

Under Q-L53 there are Q-YP4004 and Q-L54. Q-YP4004 has both Asian and American branches. Q-L54 divides into Asian Q-L330, American Q-Z780, and Q-M930 (only a single SNP unites the last two). Then Q-M930 divides into European Q-L804 and American Q-M3. So Q-L53 splits into American and Eurasian branches at 3 different levels. The only remarkable thing about Q-L804 is that is restricted to Europe (so far - the same could be said until very recently for the most basal branch of N).

02-05-2019, 12:47 PM
Therefore I guess Q-L804 origin from relatively close Greenland, neither Eastern Siberia

02-05-2019, 03:31 PM
Your theory makes sense (especially geographically), but the young trmca is problematic, and if you add the clade L527 (trmca 3kya) to the equation it gets more difficult.

02-06-2019, 04:27 PM
Q-L527 and it's brother line Q-L932 are origin from Q-L940, completely Western Eurasian haplogroup. I see no connections with New World

02-06-2019, 09:06 PM
That is correct but the TRMCA and distribution pattern do not differ much

03-03-2019, 05:03 PM
Also let's keep in mind C1e mt-haplogroup from Iceland. C1a is completely Asiatic, C1b, C1d and C1c is typical for Native Americans.
Maybe, C1e is the one of the footprints of migrations from New World to Northern Europe?

03-17-2019, 06:07 PM
By the way...

Of course it is very interesting to see Russians (most likely they are not Russians, but peoples of Siberia) in the same sub-warehouse together with Greenlanders and Native Americans.

jose luis
06-08-2021, 05:44 PM
Also let's keep in mind C1e mt-haplogroup from Iceland. C1a is completely Asiatic, C1b, C1d and C1c is typical for Native Americans.
Maybe, C1e is the one of the footprints of migrations from New World to Northern Europe?

I defended the same as you, in the thread "Origin of Ice-Europeans and WHG" in posts #35, 46, 48 and 67, despite not mastering the subject.


New incarnation of everything I said.
M3 , the haplogroup of approx. 90% of pre-Columbian Native Americans and 3% of some native populations of Siberia closer to America, is in fact the only brother of the L804, but if the L804 had been born in the same places as its M3 brother and then traveled to the North Atlantic Europe, easily, at least some M3 would also have gone to North Atlantic Europe, with it, and some L804 would have stayed by the route and at the origin, America or/and Siberia. Where is this intercontinental mix? The first idea that occurs to me is that the father of these two brothers, the M930, could have reached North Atlantic Europe even before giving rise to the M3 (the Scandinavian Atlantic coast as far as the Arctic was already inhabited and free of ice at c. 11,700 years before present). Later, in the time and space of the Nordic Bronze culture, the M930 underwent the L804 mutation. How did the M930 reach North Atlantic Europe? Naturally, ever since they reached the beaches of the Atlantic, the most reckless Europeans and Native Americans, cyclically, tried to find out what was beyond the sea (Atlantic ocean). As they did not know the techniques of modern navigation, with some sea currents they could not advance, with others they did not return, they were taken to the opposite continent, from America they went directly to the beaches of northern Europe. How did they get to the coast, still alive? 1) With the supplies and equipment that they had to take on the boat, to withstand a long journey of exploration. 2) With the speed of currents/winds and the frequent rainwater of the North Atlantic. 3) With some tuna caught along the way. 4) also, with the defrost water the currents/winds could be more favorable. Later, when the M3 mutation appeared, a taboo similar to the one that prevailed in Europe until the end of the Middle Ages should have spread among Native Americans: anyone who ventured offshore was carried away by the ocean waters, which flowed quickly towards the abyss at the edges of our round wafer world. As taboos in archaic societies have an overwhelming force, hardly any M3 was tempted to discover new territories or fished very far from the coast, and thus never an M3 made it to Europe.

5) Those who embarked on these adventures had a higher survival capacity than normal. Those who survived the wreck even more so. Even if cases of survival were rare, once they regained strength in the host land, they would have no difficulty in giving rise to a successful reproductive lineage.
The average speed of the Gulf Stream is 4 miles/6.4 kilometers per hour, in 30 days it is 2,880 miles/4,608 kilometers.
European castaways may have survived in pre-Columbian America, but because the natives of the Caribbean and Atlantic coast of North America have been virtually extinct and the DNA of these castaways can also be taken to be of colonial origin, it is difficult to know.
I have no knowledge to assert or deny that the M930 reached Europe heading west from Siberia.