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penlanach
02-10-2019, 11:23 AM
Hey,

My Livingdna results came back, and as expected I am 100% GB with a colossal 58% Cumbria related DNA. This isnt a surprise as my family have resided in Cumbria and slightly further afield for generations. A few Irish, a few Scots and a few Yorkshiremen in the midst.

What I am surprised about is my Y-DNA haplogroup: R-Z93 and subclade R-Z2122. Living DNA describes this haplogroup as the 'main Asian' group, and says that less than 1% of Britons have this paternal lineage.

I guess it was brought at some point in the Bronze Age but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or theories about R-Z93 presence in the British Isles?

Further does anybody have any info on R-Z2122? I can find precious little online.

Thanks!

aaronbee2010
02-10-2019, 01:11 PM
Hey,

My Livingdna results came back, and as expected I am 100% GB with a colossal 58% Cumbria related DNA. This isnt a surprise as my family have resided in Cumbria and slightly further afield for generations. A few Irish, a few Scots and a few Yorkshiremen in the midst.

What I am surprised about is my Y-DNA haplogroup: R-Z93 and subclade R-Z2122. Living DNA describes this haplogroup as the 'main Asian' group, and says that less than 1% of Britons have this paternal lineage.

I guess it was brought at some point in the Bronze Age but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or theories about R-Z93 presence in the British Isles?

Further does anybody have any info on R-Z2122? I can find precious little online.

Thanks!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

Most R-Z93 travelled east of the Indo-European homeland however it still has a decent presence mainly in East Europe/West Russia, as I'm guessing a decent chunk of it travelled westward alongside R-Z283 (European R1a) perhaps?

The origin of R-Z93 was around East Europe/West Russia (similar to R-Z283) so it's not unusual for it to be observed in fair amounts in the European continent. The oldest R-Z93 sample I'm aware of was found near Samara (Southwest Russia) and dated to 4658 calBP (calendar years before 1950).

Looking at the link above, R-Z93 has a noticeable presence in Russia, East Europe and even West Europe, most of which come under subclades with no South Asians, which suggests these subclades went westwards from the Indo-European homeland instead of eastwards. Your R-Z2122 subclade is a good example of this.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2122/

Your subclade appears to be a majority-European/Russian one. Men under this subclade are usually located in Russia and East Europe, however a significant amount are located in Western Europe. Only a few men under R-Z2122 are located outside of Europe/Russia, and none of them are located within South Asia (where the majority of R-Z93 today is found).

As for how it got to the British Isles, I'm guessing the same way as R-Z283 did (via Viking invaders). R1a in the British Isles is mainly observed around places where Vikings entered the British Isles. East England and Scotland are two particularly notable regions of entry and I believe they entered Ireland too. These Viking entry points line up astonishingly well with what you've said about the history of your family.

Coldmountains
02-10-2019, 01:17 PM
Hey,

My Livingdna results came back, and as expected I am 100% GB with a colossal 58% Cumbria related DNA. This isnt a surprise as my family have resided in Cumbria and slightly further afield for generations. A few Irish, a few Scots and a few Yorkshiremen in the midst.

What I am surprised about is my Y-DNA haplogroup: R-Z93 and subclade R-Z2122. Living DNA describes this haplogroup as the 'main Asian' group, and says that less than 1% of Britons have this paternal lineage.

I guess it was brought at some point in the Bronze Age but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or theories about R-Z93 presence in the British Isles?

Further does anybody have any info on R-Z2122? I can find precious little online.

Thanks!

It probably arrived in the British isles after the Bronze Age. Either with Alan/Sarmatian mercenaries or some ancient Central/East Europeans. Halstatt Celts seem to have some scythian-like admixture and maybe some Proto-Celts from Central Europe had a bit Z93 from Scythians or other Iranics which settled in Central Europe.


To further explore this issue I ran a series of mixture models using the G25/nMonte method. Below is an example of one of the models that made good sense and also returned a fairly reasonable statistical fit. Hence, it appears to me that DA112 was in some part, perhaps mostly, of Scythian origin, with resulting minor admixture from Iron Age Central Asia.

Hallstatt_Bylany_DA112
Scythian_Hungary,80.6
Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111,16.2
Scythian_Pazyryk,3.2
[1] distance%=3.9953

Since it's extremely unlikely that DA112 was the only Hallstatt Celt with this type of genetic structure, then it's reasonable to conclude that at least some Hallstatt populations harbored Scythian ancestry. Admittedly, this isn't a very surprising conclusion considering the close contacts, as inferred from archaeological data, between the Hallstatt culture and various nomadic groups with assumed origins far to the east of Central Europe. In fact, here's what the Damgaard et al. supplement says about the Bylany burial site:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/08/central-asian-admixture-in-hallstatt.html

Coldmountains
02-10-2019, 01:30 PM
Hey,

My Livingdna results came back, and as expected I am 100% GB with a colossal 58% Cumbria related DNA. This isnt a surprise as my family have resided in Cumbria and slightly further afield for generations. A few Irish, a few Scots and a few Yorkshiremen in the midst.

What I am surprised about is my Y-DNA haplogroup: R-Z93 and subclade R-Z2122. Living DNA describes this haplogroup as the 'main Asian' group, and says that less than 1% of Britons have this paternal lineage.

I guess it was brought at some point in the Bronze Age but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or theories about R-Z93 presence in the British Isles?

Further does anybody have any info on R-Z2122? I can find precious little online.

Thanks!

Our R1a-Z93 lineage is a marker of ancient steppe Indo-Iranians. Ultimately it is from the Central-East European Corded Ware culture, which is generally seen as ancestral to Balto-Slavs and Indo-Iranians. Maybe they are also ancestral to Italo-Celts and Germanics but this is not 100% confirmed yet. The Corded Ware culture was from a modern point of view genetically very North European and a mix of Eneolithic steppe people and GAC-like farmers.

The first 100% confirmed R1a-Z93 was found in the Poltavka culture but there are also rumours about R1a-Z93 in the Sredny Stog culture. In my opinion R1a-Z93 is ultimately from the Dnjepr region but migrated eastwards to Central Asia and South Asia via Middle Dnjepr culture<Fatyanovo-Balanovo<Abashevo<Andronovo/Sintashta. The first 3 cultures i named here are CWC subcultures.

Artmar
02-10-2019, 02:11 PM
Maybe we have someone of your surname tested at R1a Project with more complex test. You can PM me your surname if you want. I'm staff member here and we have gathered many rare lines.

For the story on how Z93 arrived to the British Isles - I think that @coldmountains and @aaronbee2010 are correct.

Mich Glitch
02-10-2019, 11:08 PM
You need Big Y-700 from FTDNA + YFull.

Easy.

parasar
02-11-2019, 12:36 AM
Hey,

My Livingdna results came back, and as expected I am 100% GB with a colossal 58% Cumbria related DNA. This isnt a surprise as my family have resided in Cumbria and slightly further afield for generations. A few Irish, a few Scots and a few Yorkshiremen in the midst.

What I am surprised about is my Y-DNA haplogroup: R-Z93 and subclade R-Z2122. Living DNA describes this haplogroup as the 'main Asian' group, and says that less than 1% of Britons have this paternal lineage.

I guess it was brought at some point in the Bronze Age but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or theories about R-Z93 presence in the British Isles?

Further does anybody have any info on R-Z2122? I can find precious little online.

Thanks!

It is present in the Ashkenazi Jews (CTS6, M582 variety).
Was possibly present in the Huns/Khazars.
See also:
R1b1a1a1 (9.21%), R1a1a1b2a1a (7.89%), R1a1a1b2a2b (6.58%), R1a1a1b2a2 (5.26%), C3c1
(6.58%) 频率相对较高,对应的 SNP 高频突变位点分别为 (M478), (Y7), (Z2122), (Z2124),
(M77, M86).
http://www.ivpp.cas.cn/cbw/rlxxb/xbwzxz/201805/P020180515379362334965.pdf

aaronbee2010
02-11-2019, 12:44 AM
You need Big Y-700 from FTDNA + YFull.

Easy.

It depends what his end goal is I guess. If he only wants a more detailed subclade result on YFull then he's better off getting the R1a-Z93 Panel from YSEQ (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?currency=GBP&products_id=11867). This test will give him a very detailed result at a fraction of the cost of a full Y-DNA sequence.

If he wants to help expand the Z2122 tree, then he will need Y-DNA full sequencing. There are a few notable options, with different pricing and advantages:

1. Full Genomes Y Elite

This test costs around $395 for the test (if you use the FGCAG18 coupon code) + $35 for standard shipping (I've messaged a representative and they can do slow shipping for $10). We don't know how good at SNP discovery the Big Y-700 service is compared to Y Elite, however Y Elite is somewhat famous for having a very accurate service, delivering a high number of newly discovered SNPs (noticeably more so than the discontinued Big Y-500 service, however the Big Y-700 service is unknown at this point). This service doesn't come with .BAM analysis and novel SNP discovery, so YFull is needed for this.

2. Dante Labs WGS

This test currently costs (on offer) $299 (226.68 on the international site - usually $399, or 300) with free shipping , however they have had an aggressive Black Friday price in the past ($199, or 150), so this test can be very tempting if they give another aggressive offer in the future. I've been told that SNP discovery is pretty much identical to Y Elite however STR detection will probably be less accurate, although external utilities can still find 5000 STRs from Dante Labs, with a varying degree of reliability (Source: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16412-Big-Y-700/page6&p=545050#post545050). The main problem is that you will probably be waiting a year for your results, however at a low price, this may be worth it. Another very big advantage is that this service analyses your whole genome, so you get autosomal and mtDNA results too, which can be very advantageous for various reasons (i.e. medical reasons, discovering various SNPs that have an effect on your health). This service doesn't come with .BAM analysis and novel SNP discovery, so YFull is needed for this.

3. FamilyTreeDNA Big Y-500

This test currently costs $649, with $9.95 shipping, however offers for $499 were somewhat frequent with Big Y-500 (and I'm assuming nothing has changed), so I would wait until then if one chooses to buy this service. This test is the most expensive here regardless of whether there's an offer or not. The main advantages of this service are that novel SNP discovery is included, so YFull is not mandatory for this (although I still recommend it!). The other advantage is more specific to ethnic Europeans (i.e. penlanach). Europeans are very frequent on FTDNA's database (the most of any group of people), so new Big Y-500 customers benefit a lot from having access to said database, so they can find their closest Y-DNA matches there (the degree of success depends on the customers Y-DNA subclade).

YFull accepts .BAM files from all three services above. I would absolutely recommend YFull to everybody, as you get access to YFull's user databases for closest matches (FTDNA's database is noticeably larger though), SNP discovery, and they add you to their public tree, which is the best experimental Y-DNA tree on the internet right now (in my opinion)!

As for what service I would recommend, I would wait for more information to come out about how good the Big Y-700 service is for coverage and SNP discovery, as it's a new service. This useful website (https://haplogroup-r.org/stats.html) shows frequency of SNP discovery with various sequencing services via Est. Years/SNP (the lower the better), and it could be worthwhile to wait for some Big Y-700 results to be added to the table.

All 3 services are very good in my opinion, and the choice ultimately comes down to the person making it, as different advantages are important to different people. In particular, Big Y-700 appears to be a good choice for ethnic Europeans, including penlanach, however I would still wait for more information regarding their coverage and how good their SNP discovery turns out to be.

Artmar
02-11-2019, 09:28 PM
I have indentified a clade of @penlanach, because he revealed me the surname and location. There is just one such person tested at FTDNA but luckily, his match is a member of R1a Project and he also tested with Big Y.

He is placed under Y52, what makes Scythian or Alanic origins of his paternal lineage very plausible.

02-11-2019, 09:46 PM
Welcome to the R1a UK club, Vikings or Normans, or further back with Roman troops, maybe of the Sarmatian flavour, is your surname Considered a Norman surname or Viking? Or?

Alain
02-12-2019, 04:26 AM
It probably arrived in the British isles after the Bronze Age. Either with Alan/Sarmatian mercenaries or some ancient Central/East Europeans. Halstatt Celts seem to have some scythian-like admixture and maybe some Proto-Celts from Central Europe had a bit Z93 from Scythians or other Iranics which settled in Central Europe.

In any case, I think that Celts and Scythians had cultural contact with each other. There are some parallels with them, for example, Celts and Scythians painted and tattooed their bodies, both cut off their heads and fastened them to their horses ... The Celts were also the the only ones in Europe who used a chariot for warlike purposes, which were otherwise only used in Persia and India, and among the Mitani in the Orient, Scythian Hungary was certainly also a contact zone between East and West

btmacdowell
02-12-2019, 11:58 AM
Shoot! Was hoping for another British Isles F2935!

penlanach
02-12-2019, 02:35 PM
Thanks so much for your contributions everyone. Some really enlightening comments. Learned more here from you guys than from hours of scrolling through academic literature and other posts. Keep the ideas on R-Z93 in Britain flowing.

@[email protected] my surname is supposedly Old Norse in origin, or a 'Scandification' of an Anglo-Saxon Germanic place name. The second element in my surname is extremely common in Northern England, and specifically Cumbria, and is certainly Norse. There is also a theory that the first element is a Brythonic personal name element coming from the Gallo-Brittonic deity Lugus, as the nearby Hadrianic city of Carlisle also takes its name from Lugus (Latin: Luguvalium). There are about 600+ of us in Britain according to the latest surname data made available to me, and most of us are concentrated in Cumbria, Scotland and surrounding areas. Obviously there will be many more in the Anglo-sphere and Commonwealth.

Cumbria where my paternal line comes from on paper since at least the 1400s, has seen migrations from pretty much all of the major British movements. Being at the centre of Britain on land and sea ways it is most associated with having a strong Brythonic heritage being the likely centre of the post-Roman kingdom of Rheged (which I did my undergrad dissertation on). Many of the place names in Cumbria are Old Norse, from Norse-Gael migration from the Isle of Man, Ireland and western Scotland: Bassenthwaite, Whitehaven, Barrow-in-Furness, Ulverston etc. There seems to be a minimal Scandinavian genetic impact on modern Cumbrians today which I find surprising, including none in my autosomal. Lancashire just to the south has a much more noticeable Scandinavian contribution. My theory is much of Cumbria's Scandi shows up as Irish.

Regarding the mercenary idea, there was a large cohort of Sarmatians stationed at Ribchester in Lancashire, also in the North West of England. A large portion of the British Sarmatian population of 5500. I'm currently looking to see if any of the Cumbrian and Hardianic and further afield British Roman sites had any considerable Iranic/Sarmatian/Scythian presence. I'm sceptical of mercenary ideas of descent, although I'm sure some groups which came over were large enough to have a genetic impact. Were this to truly be the origin of my R-Z93/Y52 haplogroup, it would be an astonishing origin. Although of course there would be no way of knowing.

@coldmountains and @aaronbee2010 thanks for the info guys. I'm going to look into the movement of R1a and R-Z93 throughout Europe some more. Do you recommend any sites or books on the origin of R-Z93?

@Artmar, incredible! The other individual with my surname confirms that there is something interesting going on here with our lineage! Whether its a Bronze Age movement, something to do with the Iron Age transmissions, a mercenary settlement or a medieval Norseman bringing it over, this is a fascinating discovery for me. Thanks for this, I owe you one.

aaronbee2010
02-27-2019, 10:56 AM
@aaronbee2010 thanks for the info guys. I'm going to look into the movement of R1a and R-Z93 throughout Europe some more. Do you recommend any sites or books on the origin of R-Z93?

Apologies for the late reply. My university studies have been hampering my free time significantly, and I nearly forgot about this question as a result.

From what I've seen, books don't appear to be a very practical source of information regarding paternal haplogroups. The internet is a much better source, as updating websites is a lot easier than releasing updated revisions of a book. There are always many members here who are happy to answer any questions you may have.

R1a-Z93 appears to have mainly travelled east from the PC-Steppe, in contrast to R1a-Z283, however it is the case that small amounts of each subclade have gone in the opposite direction, with some R1a-Z283 travelling eastwards with the majority of R1a-Z93 (the best example being AG moderator khanabadoshi, whose recent paternal lineage is South Asian I believe) and some R1a-Z93 travelling westwards with the majority of R1a-Z283 (the best example being you, of course).

When I was learning about my paternal lineage (also rare), what helped me the most were FTDNA projects relevant to my subclade, as well as looking at YFull samples within my subclade and observing their geographic locations.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-origins-of-the-Y-haplogroup-R1a1-Z93-among-Europeans-especially-among-the-Vikings

The top comment from Grant Lee in the above link is brilliant. It should help you a lot.

AJL
03-20-2019, 02:06 PM
I also have ancestors from Cumbria and Durham. This is the area of Hadrian's Wall, where Romans used many auxiliary soldiers (including Sarmatians). Some probably stayed in Britain, which could explain why I have a Balkan-type V-13 ancestor from an area of Durham where Dacian mercenaries were quartered.

ketty
10-28-2019, 05:18 PM
Hi,
Such an interesting subject my results are very similar. Also 100 percent Great Britain and Ireland. But I am R1a Z93 - Z94 I am enjoying the possible theory's .

aaronbee2010
10-28-2019, 07:27 PM
Hi,
Such an interesting subject my results are very similar. Also 100 percent Great Britain and Ireland. But I am R1a Z93 - Z94 I am enjoying the possible theory's .

The original poster's subclade (R-Y52) is also downstream of Z94.

Based on your heritage, you probably come somewhere R-Z2122. I would guess you also come either under R-Y52 or R-YP4768.

I would refer you to this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?231-R2a-M124-updates&p=596075&viewfull=1#post596075) reply I gave to another AG user regarding possible testing options. Replace YSEQ's "R2-M479 Panel" with their "R1a-Z93 Panel", and with individual SNPs, replace "L295" with "Z2122".

The context applies to R2, not R1a, but most of the content applies to anyone for testing options.

TL;DR: YSEQ SNP testing or Y-DNA sequencing are your best options for trying to find a more detailed subclade result.

ketty
10-28-2019, 08:19 PM
The original poster's subclade (R-Y52) is also downstream of Z94.

Based on your heritage, you probably come somewhere R-Z2122. I would guess you also come either under R-Y52 or R-YP4768.

I would refer you to this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?231-R2a-M124-updates&p=596075&viewfull=1#post596075) reply I gave to another AG user regarding possible testing options. Replace YSEQ's "R2-M479 Panel" with their "R1a-Z93 Panel", and with individual SNPs, replace "L295" with "Z2122".

The context applies to R2, not R1a, but most of the content applies to anyone for testing options.

TL;DR: YSEQ SNP testing or Y-DNA sequencing are your best options for trying to find a more detailed subclade result.

Thank you so much, I have been interested and wondered how it would be possible to go forward.

TribalSky
11-26-2019, 08:46 PM
Hello
I'm still waiting for my 23andme Y DNA test to come back. I ran my Ancestry Gedcom through the MorleyDNA predictor and it gave my likeliest Y haplo also as R1a1a1b2 and R1a-Z93.
My paternal line is so far traced back with records to the late 17th century in Nuneaton, Warwickshire with the very common surname of Taylor.
Is this name and area in the R1a project?

aaronbee2010
11-27-2019, 02:45 AM
Hello
I'm still waiting for my 23andme Y DNA test to come back. I ran my Ancestry Gedcom through the MorleyDNA predictor and it gave my likeliest Y haplo also as R1a1a1b2 and R1a-Z93.
My paternal line is so far traced back with records to the late 17th century in Nuneaton, Warwickshire with the very common surname of Taylor.
Is this name and area in the R1a project?

Do you have a screenshot of your MorleyDNA results?

TribalSky
11-27-2019, 09:28 AM
Do you have a screenshot of your MorleyDNA results?

Hello
Yes, I currently have one from when I ran it through with the ISOGG filter. Im away from computer at the minute so I've screenshot from my mobile device. I have also attached a screenshot of the experimental tree filter as well.
34966
34950

aaronbee2010
11-28-2019, 01:11 PM
Hello
Yes, I currently have one from when I ran it through with the ISOGG filter. Im away from computer at the minute so I've screenshot from my mobile device. I have also attached a screenshot of the experimental tree filter as well.
34966
34950

I didn't think AncestryDNA were this detailed for Y-SNPs, but I guess we're all wrong sometimes.

That looks like a pretty reliable result for you, especially being positive for the SNPs under R-Z93's parent subclade (R-Z645) and negative for the SNPs under R-Z93's brother subclade (R-Z283).

The majority of R1a in Europe appears to be R-Z283, and R-Z283 in the British Isles is generally associated with Norse and Germanic invasions. You probably come under R-Z2122, but pinning down an exact position solely by guesswork is difficult. I've looked on FTDNA and I found two UK samples and one US sample (with paternal surname Taylor) who come under R-Y2619, which appears to be a Jewish subclade underneath R-Z2122. Looking at other subclades, R-PH4192 has several samples from England and Scotland and R-Y52 has probably the most English samples of any of the subclades mentioned, as well as one Scottish sample. YFull seems to tell roughly the same story as FTDNA, just without as many samples.

As far as pinning down a subclade goes, I would refer you to part of another post of mine on this thread:


I would refer you to this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?231-R2a-M124-updates&p=596075&viewfull=1#post596075) reply I gave to another AG user regarding possible testing options. Replace YSEQ's "R2-M479 Panel" with their "R1a-Z93 Panel", and with individual SNPs, replace "L295" with "Z2122".

The context applies to R2, not R1a, but most of the content applies to anyone for testing options.

There is a very high chance that you come somewhere under R-Z2122, which all of the three major subclades I mentioned (R-Y2619, R-PH4192, R-Y52) come under. The first two subclades also come under R-F1345, so if you go the route of individual SNPs then F1345 would be a very good choice to test for if you've confirmed yourself as Z2122+. Considering the amount of SNPs available for testing under YSEQ's tree underneath Z2122, a SNP pack seems like a much safer bet. Of course, I would recommend Y-DNA sequencing to anyone as the best option, but for many people, the cost isn't feasible. Regarding the decision between SNP testing and sequencing, if you were to end up getting the latter down the line, part of the sequencing includes being tested for existing SNPs, so if you purchased a SNP pack in the past, this pack would essentially be made redundant. Therefore, if you feel like sequencing may be a possibility in the future, then I would just focus on saving up for that and not spending money on a SNP pack. A SNP pack is the best choice only if you're certain that you're not getting your Y-DNA sequenced in the near future.

StillWater
11-28-2019, 02:47 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

Most R-Z93 travelled east of the Indo-European homeland however it still has a decent presence mainly in East Europe/West Russia, as I'm guessing a decent chunk of it travelled westward alongside R-Z283 (European R1a) perhaps?



Are you sure you're not confusing Ashkenazi data points for East European and Russian? They appear under the same flags.

StillWater
11-28-2019, 02:49 PM
Given that you traced your line to the 1700's, this isn't very likely, but many Jews changed their name to Taylor by mere translation from Shuster, Snyder, Portnoy etc. Being a tailor used to be the most common Jewish profession in some areas.

aaronbee2010
11-28-2019, 02:55 PM
Are you sure you're not confusing Ashkenazi data points for East European and Russian? They appear under the same flags.

The majority of people under R-Y2619 on FTDNA's R1a project are of Jewish paternal heritage, judging by the ancestor names. I would assume most of those Jews are Ashkenazi. You can check this for yourself on the R1a project by going to pages 11 and 12 (assuming your page size is 500).

I did mention I made these observations on FTDNA, not YFull. If you don't believe me, have a look for yourself.

StillWater
11-28-2019, 03:01 PM
The majority of people under R-Y2619 on FTDNA's R1a project are of Jewish paternal heritage, judging by the ancestor names. I would assume most of those Jews are Ashkenazi. You can check this for yourself on the R1a project by going to pages 11 and 12 (assuming your page size is 500).

I did mention I made these observations on FTDNA, not YFull. If you don't believe me, have a look for yourself.

That's what I'm saying - that Z93's are from Eastern Europe are likely not ethnically Eastern European.

aaronbee2010
11-28-2019, 03:08 PM
That's what I'm saying - that Z93's are from Eastern Europe are likely not ethnically Eastern European.

To be honest it probably depends on the branch. The R-Y2619 in Eastern Europe is almost certainly Jewish (Benjamin Netanyahu comes under this subclade) and not locally Eastern European.

To me, R-F2935 does seem fairly likely to have originated in Eastern Europe, and R-Y52 also seems very likely to have originated there as well, more so than R-F2935.

So I would say there are some native European subclades of R-Z93 that were probably associated with R-Z283 and expanded from Eastern Europe but of course there are non-European subclades of R-Z93 present as well, like R-Y2619 for example.

falconson1
11-28-2019, 04:45 PM
Hello
I'm still waiting for my 23andme Y DNA test to come back. I ran my Ancestry Gedcom through the MorleyDNA predictor and it gave my likeliest Y haplo also as R1a1a1b2 and R1a-Z93.
My paternal line is so far traced back with records to the late 17th century in Nuneaton, Warwickshire with the very common surname of Taylor.
Is this name and area in the R1a project?

The use of predictors that purport to translate haplotypes (STR results) into haplogroups (SNP estimation) can be misleading. For years I assumed that my maternal grandfather Williamson's R1a haplogroup was the same as that of Mongolian ancient R1a samples based solely on the fact that at the 17 STR marker level the two were highly similar. With haplogroup testing it became apparent that the similarity was misleading. The Mongolians were Z93 and my grandfather was Z284 (the most common R1a haplogroup in ancient Icelanders, and in R1a individuals of Shetland Islands ancestry - as was my grandfather). Thus Mongolian and Norse haplotypes could be easily confused without specific haplogroup testing. I am still wiping egg off my face with this one.

TribalSky
11-28-2019, 08:47 PM
Thank you very much for your detailed response. My 23andme is currently in testing so I should get the results soon, Although is this test just going to tell me the basics for example (R1a1a1ab2 R1a-Z93) the same as the Morley calculator?
Given that you think I would likely come under R-Z2122, How would this have reached England? The same as the other R1a groups? With Anglo-Saxons, Vikings or Sarmatian troops?
I'm not too sure about the Jewish connection, I can look through the registers and see the surname Taylor in Nuneaton to 1587 and the surrounding villages to the mid 1500s. If I'm not mistaken, Weren't Jews banned from England until 1655?
The trouble with the name Taylor is that its very common in the UK, so there is very little Y DNA consistency between the families as its an occupational name.
So, It would be a step forward to purchase the R1a-Z93 Panel alongside an SNP Z2122?
I'm all very new to the Y DNA genetics.

aaronbee2010
11-28-2019, 10:19 PM
Thank you very much for your detailed response. My 23andme is currently in testing so I should get the results soon, Although is this test just going to tell me the basics for example (R1a1a1ab2 R1a-Z93) the same as the Morley calculator?
Given that you think I would likely come under R-Z2122, How would this have reached England? The same as the other R1a groups? With Anglo-Saxons, Vikings or Sarmatian troops?
I'm not too sure about the Jewish connection, I can look through the registers and see the surname Taylor in Nuneaton to 1587 and the surrounding villages to the mid 1500s. If I'm not mistaken, Weren't Jews banned from England until 1655?
The trouble with the name Taylor is that its very common in the UK, so there is very little Y DNA consistency between the families as its an occupational name.
So, It would be a step forward to purchase the R1a-Z93 Panel alongside an SNP Z2122?
I'm all very new to the Y DNA genetics.

https://i.gyazo.com/0838dfbb4709ce51fcbad41bd8f69637.png

I'm guessing 23andMe will give you at least R-Z93 as a result. Even if they don't display a more detailed result, they do test for the subclades in the above picture - you can find your status for these mutations in your raw data (I've verified these SNPs are present as they're present in my raw data, although in my case they're negative for obvious reasons). Until then, you may wish to hold off on further testing until you've got your 23andMe raw data all figured out. Afterwards, you can consider your options as far as further testing is concerned.

Where your lineage came from depends on the branch. For R-Y52, this is probably a Germanic branch - the distribution in the Nordic countries seems nonexistent currently, although there are a lot of German samples, and a French and Dutch sample (on top of all the British samples), so it looks Germanic to me. Apologies, but I'm not an expert on European Y-DNA history, so hopefully somebody who is can bring some additional insight here. I haven't found any Nordic R-Z2122 (there is one Swedish R-Z2123 which is interesting, but you're far more likely to come under Z2122 instead of Z2123). R-PH4192 appears to be European too, but the distribution is different, so it's hard for me to pin this lineage down to a specific group of people, although somebody else here could. R-Y2619 appears to be Jewish, so is probably not native to Europe, instead I would guess that it's an import from the Levant that entered Europe after 0 AD.

Personally, I think the Jewish lineage is unlikely, statistically speaking. I mentioned it because somebody with Taylor as a paternal surname comes under the Jewish branch. As far as Warwickshire is concerned, there is one R-Z2122 sample on FTDNA (Nason) who is Y52+. I haven't found anyone who traces their paternal ancestry back to a Taylor living in Warwickshire.

As you've said, Taylor is a common surname, so many men with completely different Y-DNA groups have it. Looking at the Taylor FTDNA project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/taylorfamilygenes?iframe=yresults), there are all sorts of different haplogroups present. The two R1a's with confirmed SNPs are Z93-, although the other R1a's may or may not be Z93+.

Hope this helps :)

xripkan
12-02-2019, 10:58 AM
https://i.gyazo.com/0838dfbb4709ce51fcbad41bd8f69637.png

I'm guessing 23andMe will give you at least R-Z93 as a result. Even if they don't display a more detailed result, they do test for the subclades in the above picture - you can find your status for these mutations in your raw data (I've verified these SNPs are present as they're present in my raw data, although in my case they're negative for obvious reasons). Until then, you may wish to hold off on further testing until you've got your 23andMe raw data all figured out. Afterwards, you can consider your options as far as further testing is concerned.

Where your lineage came from depends on the branch. For R-Y52, this is probably a Germanic branch - the distribution in the Nordic countries seems nonexistent currently, although there are a lot of German samples, and a French and Dutch sample (on top of all the British samples), so it looks Germanic to me. Apologies, but I'm not an expert on European Y-DNA history, so hopefully somebody who is can bring some additional insight here. I haven't found any Nordic R-Z2122 (there is one Swedish R-Z2123 which is interesting, but you're far more likely to come under Z2122 instead of Z2123). R-PH4192 appears to be European too, but the distribution is different, so it's hard for me to pin this lineage down to a specific group of people, although somebody else here could. R-Y2619 appears to be Jewish, so is probably not native to Europe, instead I would guess that it's an import from the Levant that entered Europe after 0 AD.

Personally, I think the Jewish lineage is unlikely, statistically speaking. I mentioned it because somebody with Taylor as a paternal surname comes under the Jewish branch. As far as Warwickshire is concerned, there is one R-Z2122 sample on FTDNA (Nason) who is Y52+. I haven't found anyone who traces their paternal ancestry back to a Taylor living in Warwickshire.

As you've said, Taylor is a common surname, so many men with completely different Y-DNA groups have it. Looking at the Taylor FTDNA project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/taylorfamilygenes?iframe=yresults), there are all sorts of different haplogroups present. The two R1a's with confirmed SNPs are Z93-, although the other R1a's may or may not be Z93+.

Hope this helps :)

My haplogroup is R-PH4192. This clade seems to be connected with the Alan/Sarmatian tribes of Northern Balkans/Danube area.

jamtastic
12-02-2019, 02:46 PM
My haplogroup is R-PH4192. This clade seems to be connected with the Alan/Sarmatian tribes of Northern Balkans/Danube area.

Glad to see another "close" cousin on here! I am beginning to wonder if in the western littoral (Spain, England, Scotland) at least, our spread was with the Goths/Huns if not as Roman cavalry, given the current spread from Ruthenia, Greece, Italy, Spain, British Isles. But that doesn't narrow it down much...

xripkan
12-02-2019, 03:01 PM
Glad to see another "close" cousin on here! I am beginning to wonder if in the western littoral (Spain, England, Scotland) at least, our spread was with the Goths/Huns if not as Roman cavalry, given the current spread from Ruthenia, Greece, Italy, Spain, British Isles. But that doesn't narrow it down much...

Do you also have the same haplogroup? Where are you from? I received the results about my final clade recently and I opened a thread here https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19076-My-YSEQ-results Do you agree with my hypothesis?

jamtastic
12-02-2019, 03:23 PM
Do you also have the same haplogroup? Where are you from? I received the results about my final clade recently and I opened a thread here https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19076-My-YSEQ-results Do you agree with my hypothesis?

Yes, I'm one of the Scots (Y86945/BY32011) - though our line(s) came to what are now the States over 300 years ago. Hadn't seen that thread, but will take a look! Thanks!

Edit: Now that I've looked at your hypothesis, I think the broad outlines are definitely there. Perhaps I am not knowledgeable enough, but I think it might be early yet to come to even as firm a conclusion as your hypothesis proposes. I wonder if there might yet be some other possibilities as to particular tribes of Sarmatians or Alans or even an earlier Scythian/Celtic interchange. I used to wonder if our y-dna could not have gotten to the British Isles with the vikings (through well-founded connections with Magyar or Volga Bulgars, for example) but there are no modern survivals in Scandinavia to indicate our line ever having been there and the closeness of the Spanish samples has had me definitely thinking more of the Migration Period melding of Steppe (Iranic and/or Hunnic) and Germanic: Goths, Suebi/Quadi, Lombards, etc. being the counterparts. As best as I can remember, weren't the Sarmatian 5,500 stationed in Britain by the Romans in the 200s later moved? Were they even of a particular tribe? Meanwhile, I think there is some indication that the Taifals were still in Lincolnshire after the withdrawal of most of the Roman military around 410. Dr. Caitlin Green has an interesting blog post or posts on this. One other idea I had was that perhaps our line got to Britain in Edward Aetheling's retinue after his exile in Hungary in the 11th Century. Plenty of idle speculation!

I must say I find this hypothesizing to be very interesting and I thank you for the work you have done on it and shared! I hope you keep at it! I look forward to seeing more! Will you be submitting your results to yfull, by the way?

TribalSky
12-03-2019, 11:19 AM
Hello Everyone.
I just received my YDNA results from 23andMe so thought I would update.
My haplogroup is R-Y57. Coming from R-M512 and then R-M420.

Is there anymore info on R-Y57 in England or in general?
I've seen one post where its been thought that R-Y57 is linked to Scythians and to a lesser extent Alans, who assimilated with Germanic tribes. So this could have reached England via Scythian and then Germanic then Anglo-Saxon to England or could have arrived with the Scythian/Sarmation roman troops.

xripkan
12-03-2019, 12:04 PM
Yes, I'm one of the Scots (Y86945/BY32011) - though our line(s) came to what are now the States over 300 years ago. Hadn't seen that thread, but will take a look! Thanks!

Edit: Now that I've looked at your hypothesis, I think the broad outlines are definitely there. Perhaps I am not knowledgeable enough, but I think it might be early yet to come to even as firm a conclusion as your hypothesis proposes. I wonder if there might yet be some other possibilities as to particular tribes of Sarmatians or Alans or even an earlier Scythian/Celtic interchange. I used to wonder if our y-dna could not have gotten to the British Isles with the vikings (through well-founded connections with Magyar or Volga Bulgars, for example) but there are no modern survivals in Scandinavia to indicate our line ever having been there and the closeness of the Spanish samples has had me definitely thinking more of the Migration Period melding of Steppe (Iranic and/or Hunnic) and Germanic: Goths, Suebi/Quadi, Lombards, etc. being the counterparts. As best as I can remember, weren't the Sarmatian 5,500 stationed in Britain by the Romans in the 200s later moved? Were they even of a particular tribe? Meanwhile, I think there is some indication that the Taifals were still in Lincolnshire after the withdrawal of most of the Roman military around 410. Dr. Caitlin Green has an interesting blog post or posts on this. One other idea I had was that perhaps our line got to Britain in Edward Aetheling's retinue after his exile in Hungary in the 11th Century. Plenty of idle speculation!

I must say I find this hypothesizing to be very interesting and I thank you for the work you have done on it and shared! I hope you keep at it! I look forward to seeing more! Will you be submitting your results to yfull, by the way?

Yes we need more samples to be 100% sure but I have gathered some more data I would like to share.
According to historical sources about 30000 Alans and Sarmatians (Roxolani and Iazyges) moved to Britain during the whole Roman era. They were from the areas of Danube and Northern Balkans. So far there is no connection of Vikings to R-Z93. The fact that you cluster with a Spanish is a strong indication that the common ancestor is from Dacian teritorries. R-Z93 arrived in Spain with Vissigoths who had assimilated the local Sarmatian tribes (mostly Roxolani) of Northern Balkans where Vissigoths were living for over one century.
This hypothesis is enhanced by the fact that the Eastern European individual from Ukrainian-Polish borders who has also our haplogroup is descendant of a noble Wallachian family which moved to Poland from Wallachia during Middle-Ages.
Last what I know about my paternal origin is that my paternal ancestors were living in Constantinople since at least 12th century or possibly even earlier.
So the Spanish-British link in combination with the distant Wallachian ancestry of the other individual makes me believe that our common paternal ancestors were living in Dacian teritorries and were either Alans-Sarmatians or Scythians who were living in these areas before Sarmatians arrive. The fact that the other clade under R-F2935, F1019 is found in Kazakhstan, China and other Turkic peoples like Balkars of Caucasus and in medieval samples of Khazars Turks makes me believe that it is more possible our ydna to be from an Alan/Sarmatian tribe becauese these tribes arrived in Europe during late Antiquity while European Scythians were in Europe many centuries before and any Asian connection is less possible.

aaronbee2010
12-03-2019, 01:07 PM
Hello Everyone.
I just received my YDNA results from 23andMe so thought I would update.
My haplogroup is R-Y57. Coming from R-M512 and then R-M420.

Is there anymore info on R-Y57 in England or in general?
I've seen one post where its been thought that R-Y57 is linked to Scythians and to a lesser extent Alans, who assimilated with Germanic tribes. So this could have reached England via Scythian and then Germanic then Anglo-Saxon to England or could have arrived with the Scythian/Sarmation roman troops.

Congratulations! In that case, you're very likely to be Y52+ and therefore very likely to be either Y2631+ or YP1269+. You can purchase these three SNPs individually from YSEQ (46.81 for three SNPs + a one-off sample kit shipping fee for the first SNP only - subsequent orders should be made using the IDONTNEEDAKIT voucher code so they reuse your first kit instead of shipping you a new one). It was good that you held off on YSEQ testing before your 23andMe results arrived, as there are only three major SNPs you need to test for, and you don't need to purchase them all at once. Hopefully you'll consider sequencing one day, but until then, this will give you an up-to-date subclade result for a relatively small fee.

There's one ancient R1a-Y52 sample on YFull, a Mediterranean Nomad from Damgaard et al. 2018 - "137 ancient human genomes from across the Eurasian steppes" that is dated to around 1100-1400 ybp, so the theories you've come up with appear to have a valid archaeological basis. There are also three samples from Southwest Russia, two samples from Germany and one sample from East China present under R1a-Y52 as well, which also suggests this too. The two South American samples also suggests the presence of an Iberian branch of R1a-Y52 as well.

Hopefully, somebody here with much more knowledge on R1a than me could provide their input too :)

JoeyP37
12-03-2019, 01:38 PM
On YFull, Y57 appears to be predominantly European (or New World European-descended), except for the Chinese guy.

TribalSky
12-03-2019, 02:04 PM
Congratulations! In that case, you're very likely to be Y52+ and therefore very likely to be either Y2631+ or YP1269+. You can purchase these three SNPs individually from YSEQ (46.81 for three SNPs + a one-off sample kit shipping fee for the first SNP only - subsequent orders should be made using the IDONTNEEDAKIT voucher code so they reuse your first kit instead of shipping you a new one). It was good that you held off on YSEQ testing before your 23andMe results arrived, as there are only three major SNPs you need to test for, and you don't need to purchase them all at once. Hopefully you'll consider sequencing one day, but until then, this will give you an up-to-date subclade result for a relatively small fee.

There's one ancient R1a-Y52 sample on YFull, a Mediterranean Nomad from Damgaard et al. 2018 - "137 ancient human genomes from across the Eurasian steppes" that is dated to around 1100-1400 ybp, so the theories you've come up appear to have a valid archaeological basis. There are also three samples from Southwest Russia, two samples from Germany and one sample from East China present under R1a-Y52 as well, which also suggests this too. The two South American samples also suggests the presence of an Iberian branch of R1a-Y52 as well.

Hopefully, somebody here with much more knowledge on R1a than me could provide their input too :)

Thank you for your reply.
I scoured forums and noted that Y52 appears to be referred to as a 'Sarmatian Clade' and is present in Iberia due to the Visigoths who were from the Dacian Steppes. The Sarmatians were also in the dacian steppes as well. The presence in England seems to be due to the case of Marcus Aurelius sending 5,500 Iazyges Sarmatian defeated troops to England and didn't let them leave.

I'm having a bit of trouble in YSEQ, I cant seem to find the SNPs for Y2631 or YP1269. I think I have the Y52 SNP but the is no '+' I searched through the R1a SNP filter.35120
I don't mean to sound like an idiot or am I just being blind haha
Ill screenshot the Y52 I have.

aaronbee2010
12-03-2019, 02:18 PM
Thank you for your reply.
I scoured forums and noted that Y52 appears to be referred to as a 'Sarmatian Clade' and is present in Iberia due to the Visigoths who were from the Dacian Steppes. The Sarmatians were also in the dacian steppes as well. The presence in England seems to be due to the case of Marcus Aurelius sending 5,500 Iazyges Sarmatian defeated troops to England and didn't let them leave.

I'm having a bit of trouble in YSEQ, I cant seem to find the SNPs for Y2631 or YP1269. I think I have the Y52 SNP but the is no '+' I searched through the R1a SNP filter.35120
I don't mean to sound like an idiot or am I just being blind haha
Ill screenshot the Y52 I have.

As you said, that theory appears to make the most sense considering it's the most consistent with ancient and modern evidence out of the ones I've seen. The Yancai were a branch of the Sarmatians who were located in China, who the Chinese R1a-Y2631 sample likely can trace his Y-DNA to.

That's partially my fault. They do test for Y2631 individually, but not YP1269 (instead, they test for YP1270, which is currently equivalent to YP1269). If a YFull SNP is not present on the YSEQ store, you can add one to their store for a $1 fee (serves as an anti-spam measure), but they usually have equivalent SNPs to test for anyways. Here are the other links for you:

Y2631: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=48301
YP1270: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=15182

Sorry for that XD

TribalSky
12-22-2019, 09:17 PM
Hello Everyone.

I received my YSEQ results. I'm not really sure I completely understand the - and + and what each letter represents.

My quick summary is -
Y52 A+
Y2631 Still Processing
YP1270 C+

So does this mean that I am indeed Y52 and then the downclade of YP1270?
I notice on the allele chart I also have another + for L1127 G+, what is this?
I shall also show a screenshot of my Allele chart.35565

xripkan
12-22-2019, 11:25 PM
It seems this is your final clade https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1269/
Another British and a Swiss are under this clade. In general Y52 exists in Central Europe so it could exist in a tribe with a presence in this area like Iazyges for example.

aaronbee2010
12-23-2019, 02:09 AM
Hello Everyone.

I received my YSEQ results. I'm not really sure I completely understand the - and + and what each letter represents.

My quick summary is -
Y52 A+
Y2631 Still Processing
YP1270 C+

So does this mean that I am indeed Y52 and then the downclade of YP1270?
I notice on the allele chart I also have another + for L1127 G+, what is this?
I shall also show a screenshot of my Allele chart.35565

Congratulations!

Since you're YP1270+, you're Y2631- (this is a different subclade of R-Y52). You come under here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1269/

If you want, you can test for the SNPs under it's subclade (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY27616/). One of the SNPs (BY27617) is available on the YSEQ store already: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=64082. The rest would have to be added to their store for $1. Since this subclade doesn't have the location of it's participants (one of which appears to have his results hidden from the tree), I'm not sure if testing for BY27617 for now may be particularly valuable to you. What you have already is very detailed, and you can always purchase more individual SNPs once the tree beneath R-YP1269 becomes more developed.

L1127 comes under A0-T, so is an extremely ancient SNP, dating back over 161000 years ago to Africa. All major haplogroups (A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I1, I2, J1, J2, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R1a, R1b, R2, S and T) descend from A0-T.

aaronbee2010
12-23-2019, 02:12 AM
Its cool that british and indians have the same haplogroup

It makes sense. Northern India and most of Europe speak Indo-European languages. You can correlate the distribution of Indo-European languages with Y-DNA R1-M173, which dominates the aforementioned regions. Y-DNA J-M304 also seems to be prevalent in both regions to a lesser extent but I wouldn't associate this group with the spread of IE languages. Some theories claim this, but R1-M173 being the vector of these languages seems more plausible to me rather than J-M304.

xripkan
12-23-2019, 09:08 AM
Sorry, little hard for me to understand.

But youre saying that indians and brits have some distant ancestors(although we ALL share ancestors far ago) who spread the indo-european languages, hence why you share the same haplogroup + somewhat similiar language. Is that right?

R-Z93 is the haplogroup of ancient Indo-Iranian people who were an Indo-European group. In eupedia you can read:
The Indo-Iranian migrations progressed further south across the Hindu Kush. By 1700 BCE, horse-riding pastoralists had penetrated into Balochistan (south-west Pakistan). The Indus valley succumbed circa 1500 BCE, and the northern and central parts of the Indian subcontinent were taken over by 500 BCE. Westward migrations led Old Indic Sanskrit speakers riding war chariots to Assyria, where they became the Mitanni rulers from circa 1500 BCE. The Medes, Parthians and Persians, all Iranian speakers from the Andronovo culture, moved into the Iranian plateau from 800 BCE. Those that stayed in Central Asia are remembered by history as the Scythians, while the Yamna descendants who remained in the Pontic-Caspian steppe became known as the Sarmatians to the ancient Greeks and Romans.

R-Z93 in Britain is low in frequency and it comes from some Scytho-Sarmatian tribes who moved to Britain during Roman era as mercenaries of Romans. R-Z93 in India is from Indo-Aryan people who moved to India many thousands years ago and brought the Indo-European language to India. So different subclades of R-Z93 exist in India and Britain because different branches of Indo-Iranian people settled in each place. The common root of Scythians/Sarmatians and Indo-Aryans of India goes thousands years back to prehistory.

xripkan
12-23-2019, 09:16 AM
Yeah, heard about that. Pretty interesting though the OG indo-aryans looked VERY different to modern day indo-aryans.

Probably the ancient Indo-Aryans mixed with the locals.

aaronbee2010
12-23-2019, 05:55 PM
Sorry, little hard for me to understand.

But youre saying that indians and brits have some distant ancestors(although we ALL share ancestors far ago) who spread the indo-european languages, hence why you share the same haplogroup + somewhat similiar language. Is that right?

Yes. These common ancestors would be Indo-Europeans. I'm not an expert on their history, but I'm guessing they diverged in different directions (i.e. England and India) around 5000 years ago, or something in that general ballpark.

While all sorts of haplogroups exist in both countries, it's their high levels of R1 that they have in common, and this is probably what correlates so well with the presence of Indo-European languages in both countries. Other haplogroups can also be shared (i.e. G, J) between them but some are pretty much found in one country but not another (i.e I1 in England and H1 in India). To be honest, I1 in India might be present in extremely small amounts as a byproduct of the British Raj (or perhaps even from Dutch or Portuguese colonials), and H1 in England might be present in extremely small amounts from very infrequent Romani migrations to England, but my point is that not all haplogroups are shared between the two countries.

My own haplogroup (R2) is extremely rare in England, but one of the most common haplogroups in India, which is funny considering that R1 and R2 are essentially brothers, from a phylogenetic perspective.

My ancestral language (Punjabi) is classed as an Indo-European language, which would be the same family as English for example. They diverged around 5000 years ago, so it can be difficult to tell from a laymans perspective that the languages are related at all, but if you look at the numbers in North Indian languages as opposed to European languages, you can spot a few similarities.

PapaJoe
05-06-2021, 11:37 PM
Hey,

My Livingdna results came back, and as expected I am 100% GB with a colossal 58% Cumbria related DNA. This isnt a surprise as my family have resided in Cumbria and slightly further afield for generations. A few Irish, a few Scots and a few Yorkshiremen in the midst.

What I am surprised about is my Y-DNA haplogroup: R-Z93 and subclade R-Z2122. Living DNA describes this haplogroup as the 'main Asian' group, and says that less than 1% of Britons have this paternal lineage.

I guess it was brought at some point in the Bronze Age but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or theories about R-Z93 presence in the British Isles?

Further does anybody have any info on R-Z2122? I can find precious little online.

Thanks!

I'm R-Z92, and that came from Poland, fwiw. Your father likely came from a line from the Poland/Russia/Lithuania/Baltic area.

FWIW, I'm also mtDNA K1b1b, which is described as ancient Irish/Scot/Welsh/Briton - pre-Celt,Pre-Anglo as best I can tell. Modern DNA makes that half most likely Irish.

Coldmountains
05-07-2021, 06:01 AM
I'm R-Z92, and that came from Poland, fwiw. Your father likely came from a line from the Poland/Russia/Lithuania/Baltic area.

FWIW, I'm also mtDNA K1b1b, which is described as ancient Irish/Scot/Welsh/Briton - pre-Celt,Pre-Anglo as best I can tell. Modern DNA makes that half most likely Irish.

R1a-Z93 and Z92 are two different subclades which diverged more than 6000 years ago from each other. R1a-Z92 is under Z283 and linked to Balto-Slavs whereas Z93 is linked to Indo-Iranians.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z92/

PapaJoe
05-07-2021, 01:45 PM
R1a-Z93 and Z92 are two different subclades which diverged more than 6000 years ago from each other. R1a-Z92 is under Z283 and linked to Balto-Slavs whereas Z93 is linked to Indo-Iranians.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z92/


Thanks, I guess I was barking up the wrong tree thinking Z92 and Z93 might have been closely related, I'll continue searching to see where R-Z92 best fits.