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ansel
02-26-2019, 09:03 PM
does anyone have more information on I1-L205 ? their origin , history , languages , most populated places now days and back then , etc..

spruithean
02-26-2019, 10:13 PM
does anyone have more information on I1-L205 ? their origin , history , languages , most populated places now days and back then , etc..

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L205/

This haplogroup formed 3800 ybp, so that's fairly old. Judging from YFulls data I would say it was probably found among various Germanic groups, perhaps more northerly oriented groups (Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, Angles, etc).

mxcrowe
06-18-2019, 01:37 AM
My L205 Y line traces to Northumberland, England in 1772 and perhaps from there into the Scottish Borders or Scotland proper. L205 was assigned by 23andMe, so I'll need to do some further SNP tests to confirm and the Y-STR tests are just beginning.

As of now, my working hypothesis is "Norweigian" or Norse Viking visits along the east coast of Scotland in the late 700s brought my Y-chromosome to Scotland, which fits both the history of the region and at least some of the paper trails for those that have tested at or below L205.

Over time, I'll have more to share and would be happy to find others down the L205 subtree to compare notes with.

JMcB
06-18-2019, 03:22 AM
My L205 Y line traces to Northumberland, England in 1772 and perhaps from there into the Scottish Borders or Scotland proper. L205 was assigned by 23andMe, so I'll need to do some further SNP tests to confirm and the Y-STR tests are just beginning.

As of now, my working hypothesis is "Norweigian" or Norse Viking visits along the east coast of Scotland in the late 700s brought my Y-chromosome to Scotland, which fits both the history of the region and at least some of the paper trails for those that have tested at or below L205.

Over time, I'll have more to share and would be happy to find others down the L205 subtree to compare notes with.

One of the nice things you can do these days - since FT made their tree public - is compare the two different trees. Unfortunately, not everyone submits their results to YFull and it may take a little bit of deciphering to match up the SNP designations but it’s a nice option to have, nevertheless. As YFull gives you an estimated timeline and FT gives you the scope of testers in their data base. Which is larger.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L205/


31002


Good luck in your endeavors!

mxcrowe
06-18-2019, 03:42 AM
Yeah, I'm tapping into all the resources I can find. It's cool that there appear to be so few subclades below L205 and that one of them (Y15022) has a TMRCA of between 1050 and 250 years ago. I hope I end up there!

Stolfi
07-12-2019, 05:21 PM
I came here looking for information on my haplogroup which is the same as yours - I-L205.1 My father's family is Southern Italian and came from Avigliano, Italy. Unfortunately, I can only trace them back to the early 1800's there. That being said, my surname (which is my username on here) is what would be considered a Lombard surname in Italy. The Lombard's conquered Italy in Medieval times and I'm guessing that my ancestor's were probably Lombard's from Germany that ended up in Italy. There's so much to learn!

Cascio
07-12-2019, 06:31 PM
I came here looking for information on my haplogroup which is the same as yours - I-L205.1 My father's family is Southern Italian and came from Avigliano, Italy. Unfortunately, I can only trace them back to the early 1800's there. That being said, my surname (which is my username on here) is what would be considered a Lombard surname in Italy. The Lombard's conquered Italy in Medieval times and I'm guessing that my ancestor's were probably Lombard's from Germany that ended up in Italy. There's so much to learn!

Your haplogroup certainly suggests a Longobard origin.

JonikW
07-12-2019, 08:15 PM
Your haplogroup certainly suggests a Longobard origin.

Certainly looks that way. Lucky Stolfi. The Langobard/Longobard/Lombard origin myth is possibly the coolest ever.

Stolfi
07-12-2019, 08:25 PM
Certainly looks that way. Lucky Stolfi. The Langobard/Longobard/Lombard origin myth is possibly the coolest ever.

Thanks! I'm not sure if you know, but is there a Y-DNA test that will be more valuable for me (actually my brother) to take that might confirm the Lombard DNA? My haplogroup of I-L205.1 came from 23andme. My brother was tested with the new v5 chip. I just tried to join a couple of groups on FTDNA, but am trying to figure out how to save my 23andme raw data to a csv file.

spruithean
07-12-2019, 09:37 PM
Could Normans not also be a source for I-L205.1 in Italy?

Cascio
07-12-2019, 09:43 PM
Could Normans not also be a source for I-L205.1 in Italy?

Very possibly, though the Longobards were probably more numerous.

Careful research is needed.

Stolfi
07-12-2019, 09:54 PM
Could Normans not also be a source for I-L205.1 in Italy?

Since I have the I-205.1 and am from Italy (well, my father was)...would my haplogroup raw data help with any answers? Not sure if it will help, but here's my ancestry composition - everything including Southern European and below is from my paternal (I-L205.1) side and all above is from my very WASP mother. After I figure out this Longobard thing, I need to move on to the Levantine and Anatolian that show up - which I think is from my Calabrian grandmother and wouldn't have anything to do with my potential Longobard dna (hoping). 31666

Bollox79
07-12-2019, 10:07 PM
Speaking of Longobards etc... remember we have genomes/samples from Longobard burial sites from Szolad and Collegno - I know at Szolad one of the major lineages was I2a... I don't know what the long hand is for I-205.1... but remember we have that older thread on those sites...

For Szolad:
SZ45 I1a1b1 L22 Central Europe, Scandinavia
SZ12 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
SZ14 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
SZ24 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
SZ43 I2a2a1a2a1a S391 Central Europe
SZ3 I2a2a1b2a2 S390 Germanic region
SZ13 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region
SZ22 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region
SZ7 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region

At Collegno there was less haplogroup I guys:
CL63 I1a3 Z79 Central Eastern Europe

And of course I have some info on the U106ers from both sites since I keep track of the aDNA U106+ samples for Dr. Iain McDonald and crew:

Dating of Szolad samples: middle third of the sixth century (550s - 570s AD? Occupied by a mobile group for 20-30 years) based on a combination of stylistic elements of the grave goods and radiocarbon analysis. Dating of Collegno samples: between 580 and 630 CE based on artefact typology.



SZ 2: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z30/S271>Z2 >Z7>Z8>ZZ58 by A. Williamson (Wayne K also ran SZ 2 in HG38 assemblies for this sample and found it Z8+, but not ZZ58+): male aged 2-3 years of age. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; periosteal lesions maxilla. Autosomal: 90%+ CEU+GBR 10% FIN

SZ 4: R-M269>U106/S21>Z18>Z372/S375 by A. Williamson: male aged 30-40 years of age. Skull shape Dolichocrany. Height: 166.0 ± 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance and rectangular enclosures surrounding graves 4 and 5 are also worth mentioning and suggest that there was some sort of a relationship between the deceased. While only a few parallels are known in the West [18], such features may point to Roman traditions [19]; given that the site was situated within the former Roman Empire, this would be an element specific to Szólád. Stress markers etc: Cribra orbitalia; enamel hypoplasia; sharp-force trauma right os parietale; periosteal lesions right maxilla; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; caries; periapical lesions. Autosomal: 90% GEU+GBR 10% FIN

SZ 11: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347>Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>~2222759 2-T-A>FGC13489>hg38:20038474-A-C by A. Williamson: male aged 35-45 years of age. Skull shape: Hyperdolichocrany. Height: 175.5 ± 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; healed right hip and right humerus fracture; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; periodontitis. Autosomal: 100% CEU+GBR

(Note from A. Williamson: SZ4 may actually be negative for Z373/S495 but because it's within DYZ19 I wasn't 100% convinced. For SZ11, I had to create a new block downstream of FGC13489 as he shares a variant with BigY kit Cemin (N23903).)

SZ 20: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263 (per Anthro user Waldemar analysis - plus I took a look at the SNPs - shows positive for U106+ and S263+ and Z381+). Male aged 25-35 years of age. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield, Arrows. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Enamel hypoplasia; double-rooted lower canine; periodontitis. Autosomal: Not as Northern European as the other U106+ "Longobards," but clusters with SE England and Hessen, Germany - some Northern Italian/more Southern admixture perhaps? May also be a case of low number of SNPs for autosomal DNA.

SZ 23: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: male aged 6-12 months. Stress makers etc: Periosteal lesions left and right maxillae. No grave goods? Autosomal: 25-30% TSI (Tuscan), rest is 60% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

SZ 16: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: male aged 45+ years of age. Stress makers etc: Caries. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield. Autosomal: about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

CL (Collegno) 84: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: Kin to 1st gen group of Northern European men who are R1b - L151+: Autosomal: Almost 100% CEU+GBR - small amount of FIN - kindred group autosomal: CL 83 (female) is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 97 is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 87 (female) is 95% CEU+GBR and about 5% TSI (Tuscan) from 50-70% Northern European mother? CL 92 and 93 about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN, CL 145, 146 90+% CEU+GBR + small amount of FIN, CL 151 (female) 100% CEU+GBR. For comparison with Bavarian samples ALH 1 is about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN. Grave goods: Rich grave goods/chamber grave no weapons for CL84 (I have yet to find a list of the exact grave goods of each sample from Collegno)? Some weapons in grave goods of kin group members. Note that because of their kingroup status with CL84 - I consider male samples of kindred CL 1 - CL 92, CL93, CL97, CL145 and CL146 very likely to also be U106+.

I know the group that did the analysis on those two sites have many more samples from that time period and Longobard areas... so looking forward to more work by them in the future - led by Professor Geary... https://genetichistory.ias.edu/content/project-workflow-and-procedures

Cheers!

JonikW
07-12-2019, 10:39 PM
Could Normans not also be a source for I-L205.1 in Italy?

I assume so, as well as the inevitable possible crusader etc, so here the likelihood is down to the comparative size of the population movements. Plus the surname is evidence, if it is considered Lombard. What would you recommend as a next course of action?

JonikW
07-12-2019, 10:48 PM
Since I have the I-205.1 and am from Italy (well, my father was)...would my haplogroup raw data help with any answers? Not sure if it will help, but here's my ancestry composition - everything including Southern European and below is from my paternal (I-L205.1) side and all above is from my very WASP mother. After I figure out this Longobard thing, I need to move on to the Levantine and Anatolian that show up - which I think is from my Calabrian grandmother and wouldn't have anything to do with my potential Longobard dna (hoping). 31666

Unfortunately your Y ancestor won't be reflected in your current ancestry composition, which is only relevant for recent centuries. You could order a cheap panel test from Yseq or a full Big Y or similar followed by an upload to YFull. Your terminal SNP will then show you the location of matches and give more clues on origin.

Stolfi
07-12-2019, 10:53 PM
Unfortunately your Y ancestor won't be reflected in your current ancestry composition, which is only relevant for recent centuries. You could order a cheap panel test from Yseq or a full Big Y or similar followed by an upload to YFull. Your terminal SNP will then show you the location of matches and give more clues on origin.

Thanks, I will order a Y-DNA kit from FTDNA. I had found the information below on my surname which is what brought me on this journey of trying to find out if I have Lombard ancestry. When I read about my haplogroup there was mention of a King Aistulf and since it sounded very much similar to my surname, I began to put two and two together.

31669

spruithean
07-12-2019, 10:54 PM
Speaking of Longobards etc... remember we have genomes/samples from Longobard burial sites from Szolad and Collegno - I know at Szolad one of the major lineages was I2a... I don't know what the long hand is for I-205.1... but remember we have that older thread on those sites...

For Szolad:
SZ45 I1a1b1 L22 Central Europe, Scandinavia
SZ12 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
SZ14 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
SZ24 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
SZ43 I2a2a1a2a1a S391 Central Europe
SZ3 I2a2a1b2a2 S390 Germanic region
SZ13 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region
SZ22 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region
SZ7 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region

At Collegno there was less haplogroup I guys:
CL63 I1a3 Z79 Central Eastern Europe

And of course I have some info on the U106ers from both sites since I keep track of the aDNA U106+ samples for Dr. Iain McDonald and crew:

Dating of Szolad samples: middle third of the sixth century (550s - 570s AD? Occupied by a mobile group for 20-30 years) based on a combination of stylistic elements of the grave goods and radiocarbon analysis. Dating of Collegno samples: between 580 and 630 CE based on artefact typology.



SZ 2: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z30/S271>Z2 >Z7>Z8>ZZ58 by A. Williamson (Wayne K also ran SZ 2 in HG38 assemblies for this sample and found it Z8+, but not ZZ58+): male aged 2-3 years of age. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; periosteal lesions maxilla. Autosomal: 90%+ CEU+GBR 10% FIN

SZ 4: R-M269>U106/S21>Z18>Z372/S375 by A. Williamson: male aged 30-40 years of age. Skull shape Dolichocrany. Height: 166.0 ± 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance and rectangular enclosures surrounding graves 4 and 5 are also worth mentioning and suggest that there was some sort of a relationship between the deceased. While only a few parallels are known in the West [18], such features may point to Roman traditions [19]; given that the site was situated within the former Roman Empire, this would be an element specific to Szólád. Stress markers etc: Cribra orbitalia; enamel hypoplasia; sharp-force trauma right os parietale; periosteal lesions right maxilla; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; caries; periapical lesions. Autosomal: 90% GEU+GBR 10% FIN

SZ 11: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347>Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>~2222759 2-T-A>FGC13489>hg38:20038474-A-C by A. Williamson: male aged 35-45 years of age. Skull shape: Hyperdolichocrany. Height: 175.5 ± 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; healed right hip and right humerus fracture; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; periodontitis. Autosomal: 100% CEU+GBR

(Note from A. Williamson: SZ4 may actually be negative for Z373/S495 but because it's within DYZ19 I wasn't 100% convinced. For SZ11, I had to create a new block downstream of FGC13489 as he shares a variant with BigY kit Cemin (N23903).)

SZ 20: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263 (per Anthro user Waldemar analysis - plus I took a look at the SNPs - shows positive for U106+ and S263+ and Z381+). Male aged 25-35 years of age. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield, Arrows. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Enamel hypoplasia; double-rooted lower canine; periodontitis. Autosomal: Not as Northern European as the other U106+ "Longobards," but clusters with SE England and Hessen, Germany - some Northern Italian/more Southern admixture perhaps? May also be a case of low number of SNPs for autosomal DNA.

SZ 23: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: male aged 6-12 months. Stress makers etc: Periosteal lesions left and right maxillae. No grave goods? Autosomal: 25-30% TSI (Tuscan), rest is 60% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

SZ 16: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: male aged 45+ years of age. Stress makers etc: Caries. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield. Autosomal: about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

CL (Collegno) 84: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: Kin to 1st gen group of Northern European men who are R1b - L151+: Autosomal: Almost 100% CEU+GBR - small amount of FIN - kindred group autosomal: CL 83 (female) is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 97 is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 87 (female) is 95% CEU+GBR and about 5% TSI (Tuscan) from 50-70% Northern European mother? CL 92 and 93 about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN, CL 145, 146 90+% CEU+GBR + small amount of FIN, CL 151 (female) 100% CEU+GBR. For comparison with Bavarian samples ALH 1 is about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN. Grave goods: Rich grave goods/chamber grave no weapons for CL84 (I have yet to find a list of the exact grave goods of each sample from Collegno)? Some weapons in grave goods of kin group members. Note that because of their kingroup status with CL84 - I consider male samples of kindred CL 1 - CL 92, CL93, CL97, CL145 and CL146 very likely to also be U106+.

I know the group that did the analysis on those two sites have many more samples from that time period and Longobard areas... so looking forward to more work by them in the future - led by Professor Geary... https://genetichistory.ias.edu/content/project-workflow-and-procedures

Cheers!

According to Deadly77's reads, SZ45 is I-Y14999 which is under L22, and CL63 is I-Y2245 which is under Z63.

spruithean
07-12-2019, 10:57 PM
Very possibly, though the Longobards were probably more numerous.

Careful research is needed.

Agreed, however the Longobards brought more than just Longobards (Goths, Gepids, etc) with them as they moved into Italy.


I assume so, as well as the inevitable possible crusader etc, so here the likelihood is down to the comparative size of the population movements. Plus the surname is evidence, if it is considered Lombard. What would you recommend as a next course of action?

I agree that Longobard could be more likely given the circumstances, however I've always been a bit wary of surnames in determining origins this far back as surnames can change so quickly or the result of undocumented adoption, NPEs etc

deadly77
07-12-2019, 11:15 PM
According to Deadly77's reads, SZ45 is I-Y14999 which is under L22, and CL63 is I-Y2245 which is under Z63.

Correct - although credit to Sassoneg for getting CL63 to I-Y2245. I got fed up with ploughing through the no calls in the poor coverage of that sample and settled for calling CL63 at I-Z63. Sassoneg as a I-Z63 guy was willing to go the extra mile in CL63's BAM file and got to the right place.
SZ45 is almost certainly one step below at I-FGC21819, but the call for that defining SNP is slightly ambiguous - 5 derived reads and 2 ancestral reads. So both YFull and I went a bit conservative and stuck SZ45 at I-Y14999 for now. Vladimir from YFull told me that SZ45 shares a reliable SNP with one of the customer samples on branch I-FGC21819 which would definitely put him on that branch.

JonikW
07-12-2019, 11:23 PM
Agreed, however the Longobards brought more than just Longobards (Goths, Gepids, etc) with them as they moved into Italy.



I agree that Longobard could be more likely given the circumstances, however I've always been a bit wary of surnames in determining origins this far back as surnames can change so quickly or the result of undocumented adoption, NPEs etc

I agree you have to look at the combined evidence, so location and name together are about the best we could hope for when they tally with a haplogroup. I'd say Lombard should be the working hypothesis for Stolfi until any other evidence arrives.

deadly77
07-12-2019, 11:29 PM
Agreed, however the Longobards brought more than just Longobards (Goths, Gepids, etc) with them as they moved into Italy.



I agree that Longobard could be more likely given the circumstances, however I've always been a bit wary of surnames in determining origins this far back as surnames can change so quickly or the result of undocumented adoption, NPEs etc

Agreed - the Amorim paper with the Collegno and Szolad cemetery analysis showed a mixture of migrants from the North and also folks picked up along the way. And in both locations, only a single example of I1 in each cemetery among a lot of others. I'd also be wary of the surname association to these times for the same reasons.

Stolfi
07-12-2019, 11:31 PM
I agree you have to look at the combined evidence, so location and name together are about the best we could hope for when they tally with a haplogroup. I'd say Lombard should be the working hypothesis for Stolfi until any other evidence arrives.

Thanks, I am guessing ordering a better kit from FTDNA might help. In the meantime, I am going to upload the raw data I have now to a few groups on FTDNA. I'm not sure if there's anything else that might provide more evidence - you all would know that more than me. I'd really love to get as close to proving it (if it is Longobard) as possible as the thought is a bit exciting to me for some reason!

Stolfi
07-12-2019, 11:48 PM
I may try to get some other Italian males in my area in Connecticut to get their Y-DNA done. We almost all came from the same area in Italy. My brother-in-law came from a little further up in Italy and his haplo is R-U152 and another guy from my area in Italy's haplo is I-M223 (he's literally from the same area in Avigliano as my relatives). That info probably doesn't help much, but maybe there are a few other's here that I can get to test - the more, the better!

JonikW
07-12-2019, 11:52 PM
Agreed - the Amorim paper with the Collegno and Szolad cemetery analysis showed a mixture of migrants from the North and also folks picked up along the way. And in both locations, only a single example of I1 in each cemetery among a lot of others. I'd also be wary of the surname association to these times for the same reasons.

You make good points, but we should bear in mind that although tribes bore names such as the Lombards they were still heterogeneous to greater or lesser extents. But their members were still "Lombards" etc.

Bollox79
07-12-2019, 11:57 PM
I personally am hoping for some migration era samples from Frankish or Western Germanic sites... i.e. House of Wettin and now Bourbon (by extension possibly Capetian and Robertians etc - Dr. Iain said he had received a positive response from the head research of the Bourbon sample, but had yet to make further progress I think) being associated with Frankish tribes... I want to see if any DF98 shows up in Frankish remains... and of course I hope for Haplogroup I guys also ;-)... anyone know of any papers coming out anytime soon on Western Germanic sites or Frankish sites? I mean there are a ton of them to be studied, but the aDNA scene moves so slowly via papers and such...!! Waiting is killing me hah. Last year was good for Germanic sites... this year so far not so much... also looking forward to any late BA into Iron Age - we need those too!

Cheers!

deadly77
07-13-2019, 12:07 AM
You make good points, but we should bear in mind that although tribes bore names such as the Lombards they were still heterogeneous to greater or lesser extents. But their members were still "Lombards" etc.

Of course - I've always said that population groups are heterogenous, but it's good to emphasize the point. I feel it's also likely that the people within the group at the time wouldn't be able to distinguish either after a few generations of incorporation.

Stolfi
07-13-2019, 03:02 AM
I'm going to ask a very simplistic question, so please bear with me as I'm sure it's obvious how little I know about haplogroups. But with regards to my haplogroup of I-L205.1, is that definitely a Germanic haplogroup? If so and we know that my father was pretty much 100% Southern European/Italian by his DNA and his father and my 2nd great grandfather all lived in Avigliano (everything Southern European and below on the ancestry composition is from him – my mother was tested and the DNA was phased against hers – everything above Southern European was matched to her DNA). I know for certain that my surname is a Germanic Lombard name and that there were settlements of Lombards in the area where my ancestors lived. I understand that there could be adoptions and so forth, but let's hypothetically say there weren't any adoptions. So, my simplistic question is – what would I need to find out to prove or disprove if my ancestor’s were Lombard’s and is it even possible? Just as an added note, I'm thinking it's likely that the Anatolian and Levantine DNA is from my father's mother who was from Calabria (I have more researching to do on that). I also attached a screenshot of where in Italy my DNA is from - which seems rather accurate according to my paper trail.

31673 31674

digital_noise
07-13-2019, 03:45 AM
It’s hard to say as these haplogroups are old, likely before Italy was even called Italy. Regionally it could be the case, but it’s likely part of a bigger picture yet to be uncovered.

If you are getting your haplogroup from 23 and me, know that it’s very high level. You should consider a FTDNA Y test if you are seriously interested in this. And yes, the west Asian is from the Italian, although it’s likely from both your calabrese and basilicatian. Or whatever the hell people from Basilicata are called lol.

Stolfi
07-13-2019, 04:27 AM
It’s hard to say as these haplogroups are old, likely before Italy was even called Italy. Regionally it could be the case, but it’s likely part of a bigger picture yet to be uncovered.

If you are getting your haplogroup from 23 and me, know that it’s very high level. You should consider a FTDNA Y test if you are seriously interested in this. And yes, the west Asian is from the Italian, although it’s likely from both your calabrese and basilicatian. Or whatever the hell people from Basilicata are called lol.

Ha! Your post made me actually laugh out loud! I don't know what they are called either! I'm going to get the Y-DNA test and I will have to patiently wait and hope for some answers, but it will probably lead to more questions!

digital_noise
07-13-2019, 04:44 AM
Ha! Your post made me actually laugh out loud! I don't know what they are called either! I'm going to get the Y-DNA test and I will have to patiently wait and hope for some answers, but it will probably lead to more questions!

Take it from me: go Big-Y or don’t bother. The lesser Y tests won’t give you what you are looking for.

Stolfi
07-13-2019, 04:53 AM
Take it from me: go Big-Y or don’t bother. The lesser Y tests won’t give you what you are looking for.

Do you know if I get the Y-111 one if I'd be able to upgrade without having to submit more DNA? I hate to dish out $650 all at once. It's my brother who would be taken the test, but I would be the one paying as he doesn't have much interest in any of this...

digital_noise
07-13-2019, 06:32 AM
Do you know if I get the Y-111 one if I'd be able to upgrade without having to submit more DNA? I hate to dish out $650 all at once. It's my brother who would be taken the test, but I would be the one paying as he doesn't have much interest in any of this...

yes that works but ends up costing more. I did exactly that. I did a Y-111, then E-V13 snp pack and eventually Big Y and Biig Y upgrade. all On same sample thankfully, lol.

I know upgrades from Y-111 to big Y are cheaper but at least in my case, a Y-111 gave me a higher stream haplogropup than 23 and me did. (Y-111 gave me E-M35, 23 and me E-V13)

Stolfi
07-13-2019, 06:44 AM
yes that works but ends up costing more. I did exactly that. I did a Y-111, then E-V13 snp pack and eventually Big Y and Biig Y upgrade. all On same sample thankfully, lol.

I know upgrades from Y-111 to big Y are cheaper but at least in my case, a Y-111 gave me a higher stream haplogropup than 23 and me did. (Y-111 gave me E-M35, 23 and me E-V13)

Thanks! It makes it a little bit easier for me if I can split up the cost a bit.

Stolfi
07-13-2019, 06:50 AM
I just went on 23andme and was looking at my matches on my paternal side and found another I.L205.1. Something tells me that right in my neighborhood I can probably find a few more with that same haplogroup. The Italians from my area in Italy literally all came over to the same area here at the same time and they all seemed to inter-marry while in Italy.

31678

deadly77
07-13-2019, 12:41 PM
L205 has always struck me as a bit of an oddball as it's a very recurrent SNP - by that I mean it's a SNP that appears in a lot of haplogroups. Most obvioulsy on both the YFull tree and the FTDNA tree as a subclade in haplogroup I1 (like we're discussing here) and also in haplogroup Q. But then YFull also reports finding this SNP (although it's not on the tree) in A-M28, G-Y14684, G-Z39670, I-S23035, J-ZS2600, T-L206, R-L2, R-FGC13517, R-Y31855, R-Y17660, R-Z17614, N-L1032 - whew! My feeling is that if it was discovered today, it would be unlikely to be used for branching on YFull's tree due to many different localizations. But I guess it's grandfathered in since it was probably an established branch before YFull started offering analysis.

All of which is very interesting but probably doesn't get you to what you're looking for. In my opinion there's no Y-DNA test that will conclusively prove a Lombard origin, and so far we didn't find any examples of I-L205 at the two Lombard cemeteries. But just because we haven't found them yet doesn't mean that they weren't there, although extension beyond the 23andme result may allow a better comparison against future samples that can may be found - Lombard or otherwise, as well as clues that you can get from comparison with modern samples.

I had a look at the SNPs that 23andme covers for I1 on their V5 chip, and there's nothing further below I-L205. It might be worth checking the upstream SNPs above such as I-L22, I-Z2336/CTS6364 just to double check that it's not a recurrent L205 in another haplogroup. This isn't to hard to do, but let me know if you need help.

Regarding the SNP packs, I'm with digital_noise on this one: do the Big Y or not at all. I've had a brief review of the SNP packs on offer at FTDNA and none of them really cover this portion of the tree very well. The I-Y3549 (P109) SNP pack has some of the I-L205 included, but not a lot - not a lot of bang for your buck as it's mostly concerned with the I-P109 barnch (which you're not). This can probably be done cheaper and more flexibly with testing single SNPs one at a time at YSEQ. I can help with advice on which SNPs to go for if you want to go down that route and narrow down where you may be on the current tree below I-L205, but sooner or later you're going to branch off from the known samples and tests like Big Y are the only further recourse. A lot of folks who have done SNP packs and then Big Y often say they wish that they bypassed the SNP packs and went directly to Big Y (as digital_noise advocates), so while I appreciate the cost is daunting, I usually recommend the next generation sequencing tests (Big Y, YElite, WGS - whole genome sequencing) above the SNP packs.

One of the reasons for the poor options for SNP packs is that I-L205 isn't a very well tested subclade. Just 9 samples at YFull and 42 at FTDNA and only 18 of those at any of the levels means that there's not very much out there currently to compare to below I-L205. More tests like Big Y help to track some of the uncharted territory, but this is still a rather young field with more questions than answers, and just a bit of caution that the more expensive tests aren't always a magic bullet for what an individual may be looking for. At this stage, I don't think there's any test that conclusively determines if your Y-DNA line was Lombard. I find the whole field of Y-DNA phylogeny rather fascinating, but I do think it's best to temper expectations with the likely reality of the outcome. So take some time and do some reading and research into what you may want to do. The I-L205 subclade branched away from the main tree some time between 4500 and 3300 years ago, so there's no need to rush and plenty of time. As always, feel free to ask questions or clarification.

angscoire
07-13-2019, 12:55 PM
My L205 Y line traces to Northumberland, England in 1772 and perhaps from there into the Scottish Borders or Scotland proper. L205 was assigned by 23andMe, so I'll need to do some further SNP tests to confirm and the Y-STR tests are just beginning.

As of now, my working hypothesis is "Norweigian" or Norse Viking visits along the east coast of Scotland in the late 700s brought my Y-chromosome to Scotland, which fits both the history of the region and at least some of the paper trails for those that have tested at or below L205.

Over time, I'll have more to share and would be happy to find others down the L205 subtree to compare notes with.

A great grandfather of mine was L205 >A1463>A1465>Y11821 . I think the key L205>A1463 group probably expanded with Germanic tribes and my Y11821 arrived in England via Angles/Saxons. However , there is evidence some L205’s arrived with the Normans too (several surnames suggest this) . Their ancestry was of course partly Germanic.

Bollox79
07-13-2019, 07:00 PM
I'm going to ask a very simplistic question, so please bear with me as I'm sure it's obvious how little I know about haplogroups. But with regards to my haplogroup of I-L205.1, is that definitely a Germanic haplogroup? If so and we know that my father was pretty much 100% Southern European/Italian by his DNA and his father and my 2nd great grandfather all lived in Avigliano (everything Southern European and below on the ancestry composition is from him – my mother was tested and the DNA was phased against hers – everything above Southern European was matched to her DNA). I know for certain that my surname is a Germanic Lombard name and that there were settlements of Lombards in the area where my ancestors lived. I understand that there could be adoptions and so forth, but let's hypothetically say there weren't any adoptions. So, my simplistic question is – what would I need to find out to prove or disprove if my ancestor’s were Lombard’s and is it even possible? Just as an added note, I'm thinking it's likely that the Anatolian and Levantine DNA is from my father's mother who was from Calabria (I have more researching to do on that). I also attached a screenshot of where in Italy my DNA is from - which seems rather accurate according to my paper trail.

31673 31674

Stolfi, the thing to remember when doing your Y-DNA and also autosomal DNA is that they are for the most part separate. Y-DNA can go back very far in the past (really just depends on your level of testing - I'd save up and got with a Big Y or equivalent test - I was an early Big Y 500 tester and I'm just waiting for matches to show up - don't really need anymore testing unless I get a very close one who is Big Y 700 then I'd consider getting upgrade etc) - see my match with the Germanic/Celtic Gladiator 6drif-3 in my signature - but your autosomal only gets you so far back in the past. Even my very inbred Gaelic native noble families of which my Mom's father was a recent descendant on both sides of his family - he was an O'Dwyer/O'Duibhir on his paternal side and a Maguire Mag Uidhir on his maternal side: (O'Duibhir of Kilnamanagh and Wicklow/Glen of Imaal and O'Byrne of Glenmalure, Maguire of Kerry and previously Fermanagh including O'Donnells and O'Neills all intermarried for several gens and Clan Ranald MacDonald and allied families from the Hebrides and Western Highlands - I have extended cousin matches supporting all these connections and more) gets back to maybe 400 years ago since the same DNA was getting used over and over again...

Anyway my point is that to confirm a Longobard or Germanic origin for your Y-DNA - you can't get back far enough with the autosomal so I wouldn't bother with that (though that CAN be useful in identifying common descent from certain families and allied family clusters - worked well for my Gaelic Irish and Scots Highlander ancestral families and also for the early Colonial English and German/Scots-Irish (German and Scots-Irish/Scottish is my father's side) in my family tree!). Your recent ancestors are going to resemble people where they came from (Italy correct - if you get family finder at FTDNA and do the Ancestry dot com test you will see a bunch of clustering with family groups that can help triangulate and confirm your descent from certain families etc). BUT, on the Y-DNA you could possibly match a sample from a "Longobard" or "Germanic" burial context if you a) get enough testing on your Y-DNA, and b) they find a sample that is in your group and the testing is GOOD enough on that sample to get down into the sub groups of your group.

To start as others such as Deadly77 have suggested - I'd save for and get Big Y 700 OR equivalent test (though I would say the largest data base for comparison would currently be the Big Y testers as I know my U106 DNA group and sub group of DF98 run by Dr. Iain McDonald is mainly Big Y testers with some Yseq)... so you are set for the future as far as matches and then it becomes a waiting game for a) European matches as they hopefully become more tested in the area where your male ancestors came from (We have such a bias for Isles testers right now - we need Continental and Eastern Euro testers!!!) and b) some ancient samples match your group and the testing is good enough to get into the sub groups etc. That should become more and more possible with the increase of aDNA testing!...

It eventually just becomes a waiting game, but I tell myself it's the journey that matters hah!

Hope that helps!

Edit: In regards to SNPs and STRs - SNPs are more important in that they define the SNP tree and when you match people at new SNPs that only you two share you form a new "sub group." STR testing, as I understand it (was more popular when I first started, but SNPs took over) that is more useful in closely related groups... really groups that related within the surname time frame (I'd say maybe 500 years ago to common ancestor) while SNPs 100% confirm your descent from a certain group (though what the culture or ethnicity of that particular "group" was that is the big question right hah - case in point many people call my group R1b-U106 the "Germanic" group of R1b and it is currently the most common Y-DNA group in Germanic Migration remains see my aDNA list of U106 samples and you will see many samples in Germanic burial contexts: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6ZFaJe9gUtwl2r2Iu33B5_kCc6er5n9oEthCe25wV0/edit?usp=sharing) But R1b-U106 was also found in the Unetice culture mature male burial in the early Bronze Age (and that guy was positive for my sub group of DF98 and S1911) so it was moving around in the EBA when there were no "Celts" or "Germans" so chances are it was there before any of that and we really just need well tested aDNA samples from all periods to really tell that story!).

mxcrowe
10-05-2019, 08:33 PM
Just to keep this dialog going: My L205.1 assignment also came from 23andMe, so I always held it as provisional. Living DNA assigned I-CTS6364, which is higher up the chain. Since then, I have done the 37 marker STR test at FTDNA, but my highest match (of circa 35 at the 37 marker level) is genetic distance 2, and not a single one of my matches shares my surname (Crowe). Of course, without a SNP test, all I have as far as haplogroup confirmation is I-M253. Further, I'm assuming (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please) that testing 111 or 700 will just shorten my list, possibly knocking the guy who is genetic distance 2 off my list.

As I posted previously, I have been going with the general I1 narrative and assumed that Vikings visited the east coast of Scotland sometime prior to where my paper trail ends (confidently in Northumberland in 1796 and provisionally in Kincardinshire, Scotland in 1772). My Y match list is certainly consistent with this idea, as the closest match has a clearly Danish surname and there are several others who have trees that are entirely Swedish. Many of the earliest known ancestors are from eastern Scotland. Maybe all this is irrelevant at the Y37 level, but I'm not sure I'll learn any more with a shorter list of folks whose genetic distances are greater than 2.

I was pretty disappointed with my STR results, as they point to a likely NPE in the 1700s. At the Crow/Crowe surname project, I am "ungrouped" and somewhat lonely. I do, however, intend to refine the haplogroup assignment. I found the L-22 test was $78 and the L-205 test was $39 at FTDNA some time ago...not sure if those values hold today. That would definitely narrow things down. I would love to contribute more knowledge to the L205 pool, but paying for the Y700 test is a bit daunting at the moment.

No Lombard connections that I can see anywhere in my ethnicity or paper trail pathways. My Y line becomes unclear in the late 1700s, so who knows where people came from prior to that? For now, I'm sticking with Vikings.

deadly77
10-06-2019, 11:47 AM
Just to keep this dialog going: My L205.1 assignment also came from 23andMe, so I always held it as provisional. Living DNA assigned I-CTS6364, which is higher up the chain. Since then, I have done the 37 marker STR test at FTDNA, but my highest match (of circa 35 at the 37 marker level) is genetic distance 2, and not a single one of my matches shares my surname (Crowe). Of course, without a SNP test, all I have as far as haplogroup confirmation is I-M253. Further, I'm assuming (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please) that testing 111 or 700 will just shorten my list, possibly knocking the guy who is genetic distance 2 off my list.

As I posted previously, I have been going with the general I1 narrative and assumed that Vikings visited the east coast of Scotland sometime prior to where my paper trail ends (confidently in Northumberland in 1796 and provisionally in Kincardinshire, Scotland in 1772). My Y match list is certainly consistent with this idea, as the closest match has a clearly Danish surname and there are several others who have trees that are entirely Swedish. Many of the earliest known ancestors are from eastern Scotland. Maybe all this is irrelevant at the Y37 level, but I'm not sure I'll learn any more with a shorter list of folks whose genetic distances are greater than 2.

I was pretty disappointed with my STR results, as they point to a likely NPE in the 1700s. At the Crow/Crowe surname project, I am "ungrouped" and somewhat lonely. I do, however, intend to refine the haplogroup assignment. I found the L-22 test was $78 and the L-205 test was $39 at FTDNA some time ago...not sure if those values hold today. That would definitely narrow things down. I would love to contribute more knowledge to the L205 pool, but paying for the Y700 test is a bit daunting at the moment.

No Lombard connections that I can see anywhere in my ethnicity or paper trail pathways. My Y line becomes unclear in the late 1700s, so who knows where people came from prior to that? For now, I'm sticking with Vikings.

Regarding higher levels of STR markers - yes, generally amount of matches gets lower as you increase the number of markers, but you can have more confidence in the closer matches at higher level. However, sometimes due to the threshold levels that FTDNA uses, it is possible to have more matches at higher levels - in my own results, I have 5 gents on my Y37 matchlist, all at genetic distance 4 (which is where FTDNA's cutoff is applied). But when I compare 67 markers, I have 53 gents on my Y67 matchlist, with genetic distance 5-7. None of the Y37 folks are on the Y67 list (so they must have more than three differences on the markers Y38-Y67) and none of the Y67 folks are on the Y37 list (so must have more than 4 mismatches in the first 37 markers). Several of the Y67 matches have tested to Y111, but don't appear on my Y111 match list, so must have more than 10 differences over the 111 STRs. Some of the Y67 matches have done SNP testing, and following the age estimates on the YFull tree, have a common ancestor about 3000 years ago, so the STR results imply a closer genetic relationship than when compared with the SNP results. This is often called STR "convergence" although more recent writings have suggested that this may result from a lack of divergence rather than real convergence, although the result is similar. This is a common issue in the I1 haplogroup because of our relatively recent common ancestor compared to some other haplogroups - also shared by some subclades of R1b, etc.

There's a good article here written by a fellow in the I-Z140 project who runs a very well organized surname project, so he can compare STR results against known pedigrees and SNP data from a number of Big Y tests, especially in the context of Y37 - worth a read https://linealarboretum.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-strange-case-of-missing-y37-match.html

Regarding refining subclade - same as the points above that I-L205 isn't a very well tested subclade so there's less of a roadmap of what may be best to test compared to some of the other subclades. Not sure if any of the SNP packs would adequately cover this branch. Single SNP testing is probably the way to go on this if you really want to confirm I-L205 or a little further. Most common options are FTDNA at $39 per SNP and YSEQ at $18 per SNP. As you can see, YSEQ is less than half the price and has a larger SNP catalogue as well as faster turnaround times. But YSEQ results can't be imported into your FTDNA profile, so if that's important that everything is in one place, that's something to consider. However, as above, I still recommend Big Y or another Next Generation Sequencing test such as YElite or Whole Genome Sequencing over the single SNP or SNP pack route. But it's important to note that while such a test gives you considerably more data, it may not necessarily answer all questions.

mwauthy
10-06-2019, 02:31 PM
Regarding higher levels of STR markers - yes, generally amount of matches gets lower as you increase the number of markers, but you can have more confidence in the closer matches at higher level. However, sometimes due to the threshold levels that FTDNA uses, it is possible to have more matches at higher levels - in my own results, I have 5 gents on my Y37 matchlist, all at genetic distance 4 (which is where FTDNA's cutoff is applied). But when I compare 67 markers, I have 53 gents on my Y67 matchlist, with genetic distance 5-7. None of the Y37 folks are on the Y67 list (so they must have more than three differences on the markers Y38-Y67) and none of the Y67 folks are on the Y37 list (so must have more than 4 mismatches in the first 37 markers). Several of the Y67 matches have tested to Y111, but don't appear on my Y111 match list, so must have more than 10 differences over the 111 STRs. Some of the Y67 matches have done SNP testing, and following the age estimates on the YFull tree, have a common ancestor about 3000 years ago, so the STR results imply a closer genetic relationship than when compared with the SNP results. This is often called STR "convergence" although more recent writings have suggested that this may result from a lack of divergence rather than real convergence, although the result is similar. This is a common issue in the I1 haplogroup because of our relatively recent common ancestor compared to some other haplogroups - also shared by some subclades of R1b, etc.

There's a good article here written by a fellow in the I-Z140 project who runs a very well organized surname project, so he can compare STR results against known pedigrees and SNP data from a number of Big Y tests, especially in the context of Y37 - worth a read https://linealarboretum.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-strange-case-of-missing-y37-match.html

Regarding refining subclade - same as the points above that I-L205 isn't a very well tested subclade so there's less of a roadmap of what may be best to test compared to some of the other subclades. Not sure if any of the SNP packs would adequately cover this branch. Single SNP testing is probably the way to go on this if you really want to confirm I-L205 or a little further. Most common options are FTDNA at $39 per SNP and YSEQ at $18 per SNP. As you can see, YSEQ is less than half the price and has a larger SNP catalogue as well as faster turnaround times. But YSEQ results can't be imported into your FTDNA profile, so if that's important that everything is in one place, that's something to consider. However, as above, I still recommend Big Y or another Next Generation Sequencing test such as YElite or Whole Genome Sequencing over the single SNP or SNP pack route. But it's important to note that while such a test gives you considerably more data, it may not necessarily answer all questions.
There is definitely a lack of divergence for many areas of the I1 Haplotree including my own. It’s quite common at 67 markers as you mentioned but I also see it sometimes at 111 markers as well where people are matches even though SNP testing proves that the TMRCAs are at least 1,000-2,000 ybp. SNP testing is crucial for patrilineal branching.

mxcrowe
10-06-2019, 03:48 PM
Regarding higher levels of STR markers - yes, generally amount of matches gets lower as you increase the number of markers, but you can have more confidence in the closer matches at higher level.

Thanks deadly77...that's what I figured. If money were no object, I'd do the Y700 test out of pure fascination, even though it appears there are few to none of my Y-line who share my surname. It would, however, shed some light on where that line of people is likely to have been prior to where my Y-line paper trail emerges. Since I have one match at genetic distance of 2, really, the best I could hope for is that he stays on the list as the number of STRs increase (until another man tests who is a close match, that is).

Thanks for the article - will read with interest.


Regarding refining subclade - same as the points above that I-L205 isn't a very well tested subclade so there's less of a roadmap of what may be best to test compared to some of the other subclades. Not sure if any of the SNP packs would adequately cover this branch.

Perhaps you guys can answer something for me regarding the confidence around I-L205. I know I'm I-M253, both my father and I get this assignment on various tests. And Living DNA assigned CTS6364/Z2336 to me, which is a couple steps down the same branch. So, if 23andMe finds L205 for my dad, can I not be fairly confident that this value is on the same path, or are you saying that the L205 SNP could show up even though my actual I path goes down a different I subtree?

Here is what I plotted based on the haplogroup assignments:

I1a1b1a3 = IL205

I-M170 (3,334 downstream branches)
I-M253 (2,099)
I-DF29 (2,038)
I-Y2592 (911)
I-CTS6364 (898)
I-CTS10028/Z2337 (752)
I-S6346 (745)
I-L22 (722)
I-Z2338/Y3549 (590)
I-L205 (11)

Possible downstream subclades:
I-A1463 (10)
I-A1465 (6)
I-Y11821 (3)
I-A5574 (2)
I-A5572 (1)
I-A14140
I-A13863
I-Y51401
I-A10198 (1)
I-A10201
I-BY123303

What's really interesting to me here is that the downstream subclades are quite limited, and one of them has a TMRCA of 550 ybp, which feels tantalizingly close - something my paper trail might even touch. I spoke to both FTDNA and YSEQ about applicable SNP tests, and both seemed to indicate that there were tests in that region that would definitely narrow things down. They also pointed out the instability you have been mentioning. But I need to refresh my research and pull the trigger. When I do, I'll report what I find.

33727

deadly77
10-06-2019, 07:28 PM
Perhaps you guys can answer something for me regarding the confidence around I-L205. I know I'm I-M253, both my father and I get this assignment on various tests. And Living DNA assigned CTS6364/Z2336 to me, which is a couple steps down the same branch. So, if 23andMe finds L205 for my dad, can I not be fairly confident that this value is on the same path, or are you saying that the L205 SNP could show up even though my actual I path goes down a different I subtree?

Here is what I plotted based on the haplogroup assignments:

I1a1b1a3 = IL205

I-M170 (3,334 downstream branches)
I-M253 (2,099)
I-DF29 (2,038)
I-Y2592 (911)
I-CTS6364 (898)
I-CTS10028/Z2337 (752)
I-S6346 (745)
I-L22 (722)
I-Z2338/Y3549 (590)
I-L205 (11)

Possible downstream subclades:
I-A1463 (10)
I-A1465 (6)
I-Y11821 (3)
I-A5574 (2)
I-A5572 (1)
I-A14140
I-A13863
I-Y51401
I-A10198 (1)
I-A10201
I-BY123303

What's really interesting to me here is that the downstream subclades are quite limited, and one of them has a TMRCA of 550 ybp, which feels tantalizingly close - something my paper trail might even touch. I spoke to both FTDNA and YSEQ about applicable SNP tests, and both seemed to indicate that there were tests in that region that would definitely narrow things down. They also pointed out the instability you have been mentioning. But I need to refresh my research and pull the trigger. When I do, I'll report what I find.

33727

One thing I would do with the data that you already have is check a few things in the 23andme raw data to see if a few things match up. Some of these on your line so would give you an idea if you're in the right genetic neighbourhood.

rsid Position SNP Ancestral Derived
rs781183295 16850779 CTS6364/Z2336 A T
rs34626372 8576009 S142/L22 A C
i702958 15477744 S239.2/L205.2/L939.2 A T

You can look up either the rsid or the position for each of these SNPs either in the raw data file (the ctrl+F find option is great for this) - so for Z2336, look up rs781183295 or 16850779 - if the result is T you're positive, if the result is A, you're negative. If all three of these come in positive you can have a bit more confidence in the I-L205 placement.

As for jumping ahead with some single SNP tests - you could for sure do that by gambling on some of these. It would be a very quick way to rule something in or out and there's only a limited number of subclades to test - bit like a lottery ticket. I'd say go with YSEQ since they have a larger catalogue, more flexible SNP request options and a lower cost than FTDNA. Could start by just testing L205 which would also be a secondary confirmation of the 23andme result.

deadly77
10-06-2019, 07:37 PM
There is definitely a lack of divergence for many areas of the I1 Haplotree including my own. It’s quite common at 67 markers as you mentioned but I also see it sometimes at 111 markers as well where people are matches even though SNP testing proves that the TMRCAs are at least 1,000-2,000 ybp. SNP testing is crucial for patrilineal branching.

Yes, I can see it at Y67, but I hadn't seen it in Y111 - in principle I guess it can be, so perhaps not surprising that you have observed it. There's a very small group of folks on one of the subclades of I-Z140 that have enough divergence that they have a much lower number of matches, even at the Y12 level. Although the flipside is that those matches are ones they can have a lot more confidence in. But yes - fully agree that SNP testing confirmation is crucial.

mxcrowe
10-06-2019, 11:35 PM
One thing I would do with the data that you already have is check a few things in the 23andme raw data ... If all three of these come in positive you can have a bit more confidence in the I-L205 placement.

What about 2 out of 3? For rs781183295 I get "T". For rs34626372 I get "A". For i702958 I get "T". Does that mean I'm not even L22?



As for jumping ahead with some single SNP tests - you could for sure do that by gambling on some of these. It would be a very quick way to rule something in or out and there's only a limited number of subclades to test - bit like a lottery ticket. I'd say go with YSEQ since they have a larger catalogue, more flexible SNP request options and a lower cost than FTDNA. Could start by just testing L205 which would also be a secondary confirmation of the 23andme result.

Yes, I've had a back and forth dialog with the folks at YSEQ some time ago and it seemed as though they had a strategy whereby if I missed the target in one test, they would credit that to another test that would then narrow things down. It looks like it's time for a SNP test.

deadly77
10-07-2019, 08:39 AM
What about 2 out of 3? For rs781183295 I get "T". For rs34626372 I get "A". For i702958 I get "T". Does that mean I'm not even L22?



Yes, I've had a back and forth dialog with the folks at YSEQ some time ago and it seemed as though they had a strategy whereby if I missed the target in one test, they would credit that to another test that would then narrow things down. It looks like it's time for a SNP test.

Hmm - perhaps. Sometimes these chip tests have a few SNPs that are false positive or false negative - I have a few in mine and I've checked those against my WGS to verify. Or as I said in post #35, L205 appears to be a recurrent SNP that appears in many branches (2 on the YFull tree, found in 12 other samples in separate branches in the YFull database). It could be that the L205 mutation in your case isn't from the same patrilineal line as those on the YFull tree. I'd at least get a second opinion to verify the 23andme results before deciding further as there's a bit of uncertainty. Could check L22 and L205 as single SNPs at YSEQ for $36, and that would get your sample into storage there for further tests after that.

mxcrowe
10-07-2019, 05:09 PM
Great guidance all the way through this discussion, deadly77. I appreciate your perspective and expertise. And, I'm really looking forward to finding out what's really going on with my Y chromosome!

lmg915
02-03-2021, 12:12 AM
Hi I’m looking for any members of Italian descent or Italian ancestors on this post has the Y chromosome halo group I-L205.1. My great grandfather on my father’s side was a foundling left in the wheel of a church in Castellamare del Golfo Sicily in 1868. We cannot trace anything beyond that. So we are trying with DNA. My cousin has connected with other people in the Y HG I-L205.1 but none have been from Italian descent. Any information you could pass along would be great. I have not done my dna yet. My male relatives have the Y I-L205.1. I see the user Stolfi has Italian descent. Thank you for your time.

deadly77
02-04-2021, 12:16 AM
Hi I’m looking for any members of Italian descent or Italian ancestors on this post has the Y chromosome halo group I-L205.1. My great grandfather on my father’s side was a foundling left in the wheel of a church in Castellamare del Golfo Sicily in 1868. We cannot trace anything beyond that. So we are trying with DNA. My cousin has connected with other people in the Y HG I-L205.1 but none have been from Italian descent. Any information you could pass along would be great. I have not done my dna yet. My male relatives have the Y I-L205.1. I see the user Stolfi has Italian descent. Thank you for your time.

Welcome to the Anthrogenica forums. It doesn't look like Stolfi has been active on this site for some time, so probably hasn't seen your post. It might be better to send them a PM if you wish to contact them. Have a read through the earlier posts on this thread - it appears that I-L205 is a rather small and not very well tested subclade of I1. Good luck in your research into your great grandfather's Y line.

lmg915
02-04-2021, 04:02 PM
Yes I saw that, I can’t send a message because I don’t have enough post. Thank you for response.

Stolfi
04-07-2021, 07:13 PM
Welcome to the Anthrogenica forums. It doesn't look like Stolfi has been active on this site for some time, so probably hasn't seen your post. It might be better to send them a PM if you wish to contact them. Have a read through the earlier posts on this thread - it appears that I-L205 is a rather small and not very well tested subclade of I1. Good luck in your research into your great grandfather's Y line.

Funny, I haven't been on here in a couple of years as I thought it's a bit pointless because I didn't have the Y-DNA tested with FTDNA. I finally got my brother to do the Y-111 test, so I am hoping that it sheds a bit more light for me. I figure once I get that test done, I will upgrade - doing it this way makes it less painful for me (financially speaking). In the meantime, I found this Y predictor online and uploaded my brother's results from 23andme and I think it confirms what 23andme had for him - I-L205.1

I'm still hoping to figure out if there's a Longobard connection - unlikely I will be able to confirm, but it will be interesting to try. It was the name King Aistulf that made me wonder. When I found some old church records for the part of Italy where my paternal line comes from (Avigliano in Potenza), I saw that Stolfi was actually Stolfo (this was in 1630). I will reply to the other person now who was looking for information from me!

Stolfi
04-07-2021, 07:28 PM
Yes I saw that, I can’t send a message because I don’t have enough post. Thank you for response.

I'm not sure if you are still on this site, but I just recently came back on here again and saw your message. My father has 100% Italian roots and his family was in Avigliano in the Basilicata region of Italy. I traced his paternal line in Avigliano back to the early 1600's. I don't believe that they were there in Avigliano too many years before that as there were very few people with my last name in the records. I also have noticed that the name Stolfi/Stolfo is prevalent in the Tuscan region and along with that, all of the DNA places where I've had my DNA tested state that my Stolfi side is Northern Italian as opposed to Southern Italian. I would recommend getting your DNA done to see who your close matches are from Italy. If you take an AncestryDNA or 23andme test you can upload it to MyHeritage and GEDmatch.

mxcrowe
05-21-2021, 03:10 AM
Hey all,
Took me some time, but I have purchased the BigY-700 test today. I re-read all the back and forth between some of us and deadly77 and decided best to get all the STRs and SNPs at one time. I'm only telling you guys now so I have someone to share my impatience with...

In the interim, I have pretty well confirmed my most distant known paternal line ancestor as William Crow or Craw, born ~1770-1772 in Chirnside, Berwickshire, Scotland. Without going into all the atDNA and paper trail details, it's him. Apparently Crow/Craw is quite common in this area of Scotland. So that sort of brackets the known near-term folks. Most unfortunately, my research indicates that my brothers, my father, and I are the only living male descendants of Wm Crow (1770), so it would require lines down from his brother, uncles, etc. to find any others. To date, none such have Y-tested at FTDNA, anyway.

As I remain ungrouped in the Crow(e) surname project, perhaps getting all these SNPs tested will both shed some light on things and also add something new to the catalog. Once I have some better indication of the line down to the terminal SNP, I will join some of the I1 SNP groups, too. Finally, I think it will be interesting to see if a more detailed test like this confirms or denies the assignments given by LDNA (CTS6364) and 23andMe (L205.1).

deadly77
05-21-2021, 07:27 PM
Good to hear that you have taken the plunge with a more comprehensive Y-DNA test - it'll definitely confirm or otherwise the I-L205 placement that the primarily autosomal chip tests have given you.

I think a lot of this comes down to a degree of luck in how developed your subclade branch is in terms of testing. Generally, Y-DNA testing at this level is really not very comprehensive through the population and the database is small compared to the autosomal chip tests. I know folks who have been able to zero in to verified genealogical ancestors based on paper trails and being able to compare high resolution Y-DNA tests, but also people who have done the same high resolution Y-DNA tests and end up with a surplus of private SNPs and branching off from everybody else on the known Y-DNA tree more than 3000 years ago. I'm in the latter category, and so Y-DNA testing hasn't achieved my primary goal, which was having some clarity on the parentage of my likely illegitimate 3rd great grandfather, but I've learned a lot more that I didn't expect to so I don't begrudge that. Unfortunately, in most cases it's difficult to predict where you fall before taking tests like these.

Good luck with the results and hope you get something good out of them.

mxcrowe
05-23-2021, 12:00 AM
Good to hear that you have taken the plunge with a more comprehensive Y-DNA test - it'll definitely confirm or otherwise the I-L205 placement that the primarily autosomal chip tests have given you.

...

Good luck with the results and hope you get something good out of them.

Thanks, bro. We shall see. I guess I'm ok with putting my little puzzle piece onto the board, even if it doesn't connect to anything yet. In time, perhaps someone else will test whose kit helps me make sense of mine.

mxcrowe
06-15-2021, 11:37 PM
Just a quick update: my Big Y 700 results are starting to trickle in. The STRs up to 111 are showing up, at least. The last two panels are still "awaiting lab results". Not sure how long it typically takes for those runs. Also, presumably, the SNP analysis follows the STR panels, as there is no updated SNP info as yet.

As a result (and as expected) my match list at the 111 level is down to one chap with GD of 8. Perhaps there's a gene on this Y chromosome that confers an aversion to Y tests (or just that good old Scottish tight-fistedness!), but I'm feeling very lonely...

Hopefully more data for you L205 folks soon!

-MXC

deadly77
07-07-2021, 10:11 PM
[moderator note] - I've moved several posts that were after this point from this thread to a new thread here https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?24173-I-BY108795 after mxcrowe's Big Y results showed that he wasn't actually I-L205.