PDA

View Full Version : Palestinian Christian y-DNA - 89 Sample 23andme Survey



K33
02-27-2019, 12:08 AM
I've posted before on the curious prominence of G1 in Palestinian Christians (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6605-Haplogroup-G1-founder-effect-among-Palestinian-Christians), particularly those from around the Judean Hills (Jerusalem, Bethlehem and surrounds).

Probably since Palestinian Christians are a pretty bottlenecked population, I have hundreds of relatives on this side of the family, so I was able to gather this data strictly through 23ndme's DNA Relatives browser.

I gathered a total of 89 y-dna samples including 78 distinct surnames, and 23andme now seems to have pretty good resolution for subclades of E, G, and J. I only added samples for whom I could be reasonably certain derived their male ancestry from the West Bank or Israel. Because they're my DNA relatives, these samples are heavily slanted towards Christians originating from the Judean Hills region-- the other major traditional Christian node in Nazareth is underrepresented. As far as confirming religious affiliation-- I guess there's no such indication on 23andme, but I do know the Christian-Muslim intermarriage rate in the West Bank is very low.

I can add more detail re: sample selection methodology in an ensuing post but for now, here is the data:

https://i.imgur.com/BNXPyD2.jpg


Here is the data consolidated into higher-level clades:

https://i.imgur.com/9pjzldp.jpg

K33
02-27-2019, 04:07 AM
I tried my best for quality control of the data gathered above.

Methodology:

All this was done through the DNA Relatives portal on 23andme, first by restricting the view to only those DNA relatives already sharing ancestry reports (which includes y-dna data for males) by default. There were enough samples of these alone, without having to request data from those set on private.

- Of the 89 samples I gathered, the first ~45 or so samples were taken from individuals that explicitly listed Ancestor Locations for "Dad's Dad" (ie, their paternal grandfather) as "Palestine/Israel", AND also had obviously Arab/Palestinian surnames. (Almost all of these were "Palestine", and the few "Israel" ones listed roots in Jerusalem, not Nazareth for example) I also checked to make sure their MENA ancestry lined up with their ancestral claim. Only one guy listing his paternal grandfather as Palestinian didn’t pass muster: all four grandparents he marked as originating in “Palestine”, and had an Arab surname, but he had ~25% West Euro ancestry and y-dna I1. So, uh, not sure what happened there but I threw him out.

- Another ~30 samples I mined from DNA matches that didn't bother to fill out the Parents Origin section. Their inclusion was based on having MENA ancestry and a Palestinian surname. Some of these surnames I recognized firsthand, but an invaluable tool I found online was some directory of surnames from all the Palestinian Christians that had arrived in Honduras. This was like a phonebook for Jerusalem/Bethlehem/Beit Sahur/Beit Jala etc and I found plenty of direct surname matches on 23andme this way.

- The last ~15 or so samples were included because they had MENA ancestry and a brief google search showed strong Palestinian Christian ties to this surname. In the case of two Arab-Chileans that appeared in my 23andme browser for example, google revealed one surname to be shared with a prominent Palestinian-Chilean businessman and another with an athlete.

- DNA matches with Arab surnames and MENA ancestry, but who did not have either a) confirmed Ancestor Locations in Palestine/Israel, OR b) support for Palestinian surname origin via the name directory and/or google, were EXCLUDED. Several dozen samples fit this description and were excluded; some listed paternal grandfather origins in Jordan— these are probably Palestinian-Jordanians, but I excluded these just in case the Palestinian connection was only the maternal side. Same thing with some relatives reporting ambiguous Lebanese or Syrian ancestry.

K33
02-27-2019, 04:29 AM
The most interesting thing in these frequencies is the very hefty dose of G1 (22.5%!), which is really rare anywhere.

Open Genomes just yesterday made this post on Eurogenes:

I think we can say that I1671 from Godin Tepe c. 5800 BCE was a Halafian, because the child was found in a Halaf pottery bowl, and Halaf influence extended to Godin Tepe. I1671 Iran Late Neolithic looks quite Iranian, but with 12.2% extra Levant Neolithic.
....
I1674 from Godin Tepe c. 3800 BCE may represent Ubaid ancestry.


I671 (Seh_Gabi_LN) and I674 (Seh_Gabi_C) are both males, and both are G1 y-dna as per Lazaridis 2016. AFAIK they're the only G1 aDNA on record thus far. I think it's quite likely then, the G1 clades in the modern Judean Hills derive from Mesopotamian farmer movements into the Levant. It seems this little area preserved these lineages better than most... perhaps the topography played a role in that.

hartaisarlag
02-27-2019, 07:11 AM
I was bored so I decided to put this together. I've posted before on the curious prominence of G1 in Palestinian Christians (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6605-Haplogroup-G1-founder-effect-among-Palestinian-Christians), particularly those from around the Judean Hills (Jerusalem, Bethlehem and surrounds).

So this time I've put together a major survey of all these male lineages. Probably since Palestinian Christians are a pretty bottlenecked population, I have hundreds of relatives on this side of the family, so I was able to gather this data strictly through 23ndme's DNA Relatives browser.

I gathered a total of 89 y-dna samples including 78 distinct surnames, and 23andme now seems to have pretty good resolution for subclades of E, G, and J. I only added samples for whom I could be reasonably certain derived their male ancestry from the West Bank or Israel. Because they're my DNA relatives, these samples are heavily slanted towards Christians originating from the Judean Hills region-- the other major traditional Christian node in Nazareth is most likely underrepresented here. As far as confirming religious affiliation-- I guess there's no such indication on 23andme, but I do know the Christian-Muslim intermarriage rate in the West Bank is very low.

I can add more detail to the sample selection methodology in an ensuing post but for now, here is the data:

https://i.imgur.com/BNXPyD2.jpg


Here is the data consolidated into higher-level clades:

https://i.imgur.com/9pjzldp.jpg

Bravo! This is excellent.

From my own narrow corner: could it really be that most Palestinian Christian M123s in the sample are actually M123 xM34? To be fair, if they're gonna be anywhere, it's Palestine.

hartaisarlag
02-27-2019, 07:22 AM
I was bored so I decided to put this together. I've posted before on the curious prominence of G1 in Palestinian Christians (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6605-Haplogroup-G1-founder-effect-among-Palestinian-Christians), particularly those from around the Judean Hills (Jerusalem, Bethlehem and surrounds).

So this time I've put together a major survey of all these male lineages. Probably since Palestinian Christians are a pretty bottlenecked population, I have hundreds of relatives on this side of the family, so I was able to gather this data strictly through 23ndme's DNA Relatives browser.

I gathered a total of 89 y-dna samples including 78 distinct surnames, and 23andme now seems to have pretty good resolution for subclades of E, G, and J. I only added samples for whom I could be reasonably certain derived their male ancestry from the West Bank or Israel. Because they're my DNA relatives, these samples are heavily slanted towards Christians originating from the Judean Hills region-- the other major traditional Christian node in Nazareth is most likely underrepresented here. As far as confirming religious affiliation-- I guess there's no such indication on 23andme, but I do know the Christian-Muslim intermarriage rate in the West Bank is very low.

I can add more detail to the sample selection methodology in an ensuing post but for now, here is the data:

https://i.imgur.com/BNXPyD2.jpg


Here is the data consolidated into higher-level clades:

https://i.imgur.com/9pjzldp.jpg

You know what'd be a dream come true? 89 Palestinian Christian kits uploaded to Gedmatch B)

K33
02-27-2019, 05:30 PM
Bravo! This is excellent.

From my own narrow corner: could it really be that most Palestinian Christian M123s in the sample are actually M123 xM34? To be fair, if they're gonna be anywhere, it's Palestine.It has occurred to me that some users have older 23andme chips causing inferior downstream resolution.

But I'm not sure this explanation is convincing, because I have the v4 chip after joining in August 2015 (v4 was released August 2013), and the v5 chip was released in August 2017. Unfortunately I can't view exactly when DNA relatives joined, but I'd bet that at least half of these DNA relatives are on the v5, and almost all the rest are on the v4. My DNA relatives have increased exponentially over the past 2-3 years.

Check out this link of v5 y-SNPs matched up with their ISOGG "longhand haplogroups: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8ojpasj080ilke/23andme%20called%20v5%20public.xlsx?dl=0

Then you can compare it with this spreadsheet, showing all the SNPs associated with the y-chromosome for each 23andme version, from v2 through v5: https://isogg.org/w/images/2/27/23andMe_Y_chromosome_SNPs_in_versions_2%2C_3%2C_4% 2C_and_5.xlsx

v2: 1,856 y-SNPs
v3: 1,904 y-SNPs
v4: 2,302 y-SNPs
v5: 3,733 y-SNPs

Take for example the G1* calls vs the G1a2b calls that I compiled from DNA relatives. Are the G1* calls just from relatives with chips lacking the downstream SNPs? Nope, G1a2b is SNP i706012A608/position 7514143 on the v5 chip, but there are equivalent SNPs/positions for this marker on the v2, v3, and v4 chips.

Same thing is true for M34, this SNP is in the v5 chip as rs780546602/position 7201903, but all of the earlier chips have equivalent positions that should be able to call this downstream marker.

While can't view exact join dates, I can sort my DNA Relatives by "Newest to Oldest", only check those with Palestinian Ancestor locations & ancestry sharing and a quick look shows 4 of the Top 40 most recent DNA Relatives (there are ~130 restricted to this criteria) with public ancestry sharing on my list are called for J-CTS5368 (xP58). All 3 of these guys have gotta be on the v5 chip, which means they're legitimately negative for P58...


Can anybody with a v4 kit and y-dna G, E, or J, confirm if they received more downstream SNPs when 23andme boosted their y-dna resolution in the past year or two?

K33
02-27-2019, 09:36 PM
You know what'd be a dream come true? 89 Palestinian Christian kits uploaded to Gedmatch B)

Hah. Unfortunately I don't have access to any of their raw data, I can only see the uniparentals and the ancestry results that 23andme spits out. There is a Christian_Arabs_Israel reference on some of the MDLP calculators, but if these are all from Israel (as opposed to the West Bank) they might be slanted toward Nazareth and Haifa instead of the Judean Hills.

hartaisarlag
02-27-2019, 09:41 PM
Hah. Unfortunately I don't have access to any of their raw data, I can only see the uniparentals and the ancestry results that 23andme spits out. There is a Christian_Arabs_Israel reference on some of the MDLP calculators, but if these are all from Israel (as opposed to the West Bank) they might be slanted toward Nazareth and Haifa instead of the Judean Hills.

Good to know. I'd be really curious about regional differences, among both Palestinian Christians and Muslims. The oft-circulated null hypothesis that Palestinian Christians are probably no different than Lebanese Christians genetically strike me as naive; the uniparentals strongly suggest against it.

hartaisarlag
02-27-2019, 09:48 PM
It has occurred to me that some users have older 23andme chips causing inferior downstream resolution.

But I'm not sure this explanation is convincing, because I have the v4 chip after joining in August 2015 (v4 was released August 2013), and the v5 chip was released in August 2017. Unfortunately I can't view exactly when DNA relatives joined, but I'd bet that at least half of these DNA relatives are on the v5, and almost all the rest are on the v4. My DNA relatives have increased exponentially over the past 2-3 years.

Check out this link of v5 y-SNPs matched up with their ISOGG "longhand haplogroups: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8ojpasj080ilke/23andme%20called%20v5%20public.xlsx?dl=0

Then you can compare it with this spreadsheet, showing all the SNPs associated with the y-chromosome for each 23andme version, from v2 through v5: https://isogg.org/w/images/2/27/23andMe_Y_chromosome_SNPs_in_versions_2%2C_3%2C_4% 2C_and_5.xlsx

v2: 1,856 y-SNPs
v3: 1,904 y-SNPs
v4: 2,302 y-SNPs
v5: 3,733 y-SNPs

Take for example the G1* calls vs the G1a2b calls that I compiled from DNA relatives. Are the G1* calls just from relatives with chips lacking the downstream SNPs? Nope, G1a2b is SNP i706012A608/position 7514143 on the v5 chip, but there are equivalent SNPs/positions for this marker on the v2, v3, and v4 chips.

Same thing is true for M34, this SNP is in the v5 chip as rs780546602/position 7201903, but all of the earlier chips have equivalent positions that should be able to call this downstream marker.

While can't view exact join dates, I can sort my DNA Relatives by "Newest to Oldest", only check those with Palestinian Ancestor locations & ancestry sharing and a quick look shows 4 of the Top 40 most recent DNA Relatives (there are ~130 restricted to this criteria) with public ancestry sharing on my list are called for J-CTS5368 (xP58). All 3 of these guys have gotta be on the v5 chip, which means they're legitimately negative for P58...


Can anybody with a v4 kit and y-dna G, E, or J, confirm if they received more downstream SNPs when 23andme boosted their y-dna resolution in the past year or two?


... results among my new matches as J-L210, Q-YP3924, R-CTS6, G-FGC31715, J-L70, R-Z159, J-L556, J-CTS5368, etc.

At least 2 of my recent Ashkenazi matches are called for J-CTS5368; it'd be odd if these were J-P58-.

Iseid0441
02-27-2019, 10:30 PM
I've posted before on the curious prominence of G1 in Palestinian Christians (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6605-Haplogroup-G1-founder-effect-among-Palestinian-Christians), particularly those from around the Judean Hills (Jerusalem, Bethlehem and surrounds).

Probably since Palestinian Christians are a pretty bottlenecked population, I have hundreds of relatives on this side of the family, so I was able to gather this data strictly through 23ndme's DNA Relatives browser.

I gathered a total of 89 y-dna samples including 78 distinct surnames, and 23andme now seems to have pretty good resolution for subclades of E, G, and J. I only added samples for whom I could be reasonably certain derived their male ancestry from the West Bank or Israel. Because they're my DNA relatives, these samples are heavily slanted towards Christians originating from the Judean Hills region-- the other major traditional Christian node in Nazareth is underrepresented. As far as confirming religious affiliation-- I guess there's no such indication on 23andme, but I do know the Christian-Muslim intermarriage rate in the West Bank is very low.

I can add more detail re: sample selection methodology in an ensuing post but for now, here is the data:

https://i.imgur.com/BNXPyD2.jpg


Here is the data consolidated into higher-level clades:

https://i.imgur.com/9pjzldp.jpg

Nice work. Thanks!
I was planning to make a similar study but it's more complicated than it looks. This does not reflect the actual distribution among Palestinian Christians rather than you're relatives but it should be close to the real thing. To get the real distribution, you have to survey different towns. For example, the majority of people of beit sahour are J1 but they're mostly descendents of a couple families that thrived. If you survey beit sahour only as a reference of all Palestinian Christians, then J1 will be an obvious winner. That's what your survey did here.
Like you said, Palestinian Christians are bottle necked. The majority of Palestinian Christians seem to be related. My parents are showing up as 3rd/4th cousins. I think it's just the same dna being recycled. They're not related on paper. So this phenomenon really skews ydna distribution.


The P58 subclade is ZS6261/ZS6262 etc... So far found only in Beit Sahour and Bethlehem. Outside of that, it's found in Greece and Spain.
From what I see ZS6261 is the oldest subclade in FGC4745 at TMRCA of 4500 ybp. But the majority of of people under FGC4745 are from the east side of the peninsula like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar. So that makes it's origin most likely in the the southern Levant or it could be east of the peninsula. Not Yemen like some like to claim.

But again I'm not an expert on genetics.

Iseid0441
02-27-2019, 10:39 PM
You know what'd be a dream come true? 89 Palestinian Christian kits uploaded to Gedmatch B)

There's already like 30 samples om gedmatch. I created a pca one time for them and they mostly cluster between Samaritans and Lebanese Christians. I thin there was a couple south of Samaritans and towards Palestinian Muslims but I don't know their background.

Agamemnon
02-27-2019, 10:51 PM
FGC4745 is also found in Italy.

hartaisarlag
02-27-2019, 11:47 PM
There's already like 30 samples om gedmatch. I created a pca one time for them and they mostly cluster between Samaritans and Lebanese Christians. I thin there was a couple south of Samaritans and towards Palestinian Muslims but I don't know their background.

Is that PCA posted?

K33
02-28-2019, 04:45 AM
To get the real distribution, you have to survey different towns. For example, the majority of people of beit sahour are J1 but they're mostly descendents of a couple families that thrived. If you survey beit sahour only as a reference of all Palestinian Christians, then J1 will be an obvious winner. That's what your survey did here.Well it's interesting you say that because my immediate family (that I personally know) over there are from Bethlehem and Beit Jala, not Beit Sahour. But many of these "DNA Relatives" are 3rd, 4th and 5th cousins, and like you say even that degree of relatedness is probably just an artefact of small population size.


Like you said, Palestinian Christians are bottle necked. The majority of Palestinian Christians seem to be related. My parents are showing up as 3rd/4th cousins. I think it's just the same dna being recycled. They're not related on paper. So this phenomenon really skews ydna distribution. But the surprising thing is in spite of this the y-dna is very diverse and almost evenly distributed. It's almost more like an mtdna distribution, compared to how a single clade like P58 dominates the Arabian Penninsula, or how R-L51 dominates western Europe.

ADW_1981
02-28-2019, 04:48 AM
I find 2 Palestinians under R1b-Z209 a bit surprising. Can you offer us any more details or if they come from the same founder?

K33
02-28-2019, 05:49 AM
I find 2 Palestinians under R1b-Z209 a bit surprising. Can you offer us any more details or if they come from the same founder?
Yeah, I just caught this earlier today too and made a note to revisit them.

Both of these guys are Hondurans with substantial European and Amerind ancestry in addition to MENA. They don't share the same surname-- however both are owners of prominent Bethlehem surnames and so that's how they both made the cut. While it's not impossible these lineages ended up there in the Roman/Crusade period, the most likely scenario seems these two individual cases represented non-paternity events.

I had 89 samples but only 78 distinct surnames-- 7 surnames accounted for a total of 18 combined sample entrants. But I didn't double-count samples with matching surnames and matching y-dna. One of those R-Z214 guys was among 4 owners of a surname who made my list as individual samples, since none of them shared the same exact y-dna sequence. The other 3 were J-CTS5368, J-M267, and J-P58. Now, you can say if you throw out the R-Z214 kid, the other 3 are all J1a and the discrepancy can be chalked up to differences in 23andme chip or call accuracy.

But one surname with two samples included a G-L30 and a J-P58. That discrepancy cannot be an artifact of chip version. Besides, when there is one surname that has multiple y-calls, how am I supposed to discriminate against including one y-call at the expense of the other... that's why I just threw them all in; in the end the vast majority of the dataset is still composed of distinct surnames. But yeah the R-Z209 guys are probably not legit.

The U152 guy is almost certainly one of those elusive "Roman" or "Crusader" patrilineages though. He's 99% MENA/1% SSA, traces all four ancestors back to Israel and still lives there now. The R-Z2122 guy is also full blooded Palestinian (96% MENA/2% Euro/1% SSA), this lineage is downstream of Z-93 so presumably it's of Iranian provenance.

Erikl86
02-28-2019, 11:24 AM
Nice work !

I wonder if there is any Q-M378 among these 89 samples.

ADW_1981
02-28-2019, 02:45 PM
Yeah, I just caught this earlier today too and made a note to revisit them.

Both of these guys are Hondurans with substantial European and Amerind ancestry in addition to MENA. They don't share the same surname-- however both are owners of prominent Bethlehem surnames and so that's how they both made the cut. While it's not impossible these lineages ended up there in the Roman/Crusade period, the most likely scenario seems these two individual cases represented non-paternity events.

I had 89 samples but only 78 distinct surnames-- 7 surnames accounted for a total of 18 combined sample entrants. But I didn't double-count samples with matching surnames and matching y-dna. One of those R-Z214 guys was among 4 owners of a surname who made my list as individual samples, since none of them shared the same exact y-dna sequence. The other 3 were J-CTS5368, J-M267, and J-P58. Now, you can say if you throw out the R-Z214 kid, the other 3 are all J1a and the discrepancy can be chalked up to differences in 23andme chip or call accuracy.

But one surname with two samples included a G-L30 and a J-P58. That discrepancy cannot be an artifact of chip version. Besides, when there is one surname that has multiple y-calls, how am I supposed to discriminate against including one y-call at the expense of the other... that's why I just threw them all in; in the end the vast majority of the dataset is still composed of distinct surnames. But yeah the R-Z209 guys are probably not legit.

The U152 guy is almost certainly one of those elusive "Roman" or "Crusader" patrilineages though. He's 99% MENA/1% SSA, traces all four ancestors back to Israel and still lives there now. The R-Z2122 guy is also full blooded Palestinian (96% MENA/2% Euro/1% SSA), this lineage is downstream of Z-93 so presumably it's of Iranian provenance.

What is interesting though is that Myers et al from 2011 found 2 samples of P312+(xU152) among their Palestinian sample. Z214 happens to be an Iberian, and lesser extent French subclade of Z209, so barring a NPE, the Crusades would be a possibility as DF27+ would have been quite common in the region the knights came from.

Iseid0441
02-28-2019, 04:28 PM
Is that PCA posted?

Never posted because I'm not best at making PCAs using Past3. It was only experimental for me.

I modeled using K13. See ones below, at the time there was only like 10 to 15 samples available.
29101
29102

I tried K15 for my parents using this site http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm, I'm hoping to expand it to more people when I have time.
29103

If someone wants to make a better PCA, I can provide you samples. I was hoping I can show differences between each town because from what I saw there's quite the variation within each town.

Iseid0441
02-28-2019, 04:51 PM
I'm not sure if you checked FTDNA. This is what I have. Again I don't know their background but their names could be telling.
29104

Ruderico
02-28-2019, 04:58 PM
Never posted because I'm not best at making PCAs using Past3. It was only experimental for me.

I modeled using K13. See ones below, at the time there was only like 10 to 15 samples available.
29101
29102

I tried K15 for my parents using this site http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm, I'm hoping to expand it to more people when I have time.
29103

If someone wants to make a better PCA, I can provide you samples. I was hoping I can show differences between each town because from what I saw there's quite the variation within each town.

You can just ask Ph2ter to add you to a proper plot, instead of using that jpg which is not nearly as accurate

K33
02-28-2019, 05:47 PM
Nice work !

I wonder if there is any Q-M378 among these 89 samples.
I just figured out you can download a data sheet for all Relatives, and for those with sharing you can see and sort the haplogroups in excel. Probably would have been easier than clicking on each one thru the online browser :\

When I sort the spreadsheet by y-dna, the only thing under Q is a Honduran with a Spanish surname and Q-M3... Amerindian lineage.

One guy is positive for R2>R-L295. He is 99.7% MENA with an Arab surname. I excluded him in my original sampling since I couldn't confirm his surname is Palestinian, but now I just found the surname on this site as a Bethlehemite family: http://www.palestine-family.net/index.php?nav=8-155&did=2854-1

@Iseid: that image you posted showed a guy with a Hispanic surname and R-Z209, most likely a Honduran or Chilean with a non-Palestinian paternal grandfather. It's possible he's also R-Z214 but FTDNA didn't get that downstream call. This would reinforce the idea that the Z214 is coming from the New World/conquistador side.

hartaisarlag
02-28-2019, 08:47 PM
I'm not sure if you checked FTDNA. This is what I have. Again I don't know their background but their names could be telling.
29104

E-CTS1727 is noteworthy; it’s just upstream of L791.

KingofPhoenicia001
03-01-2019, 06:48 PM
I can add more detail re: sample selection methodology in an ensuing post but for now, here is the data:

https://i.imgur.com/BNXPyD2.jpg


Here is the data consolidated into higher-level clades:

https://i.imgur.com/9pjzldp.jpg

Great work! I did the same with my Lebanese matches and it really is helpful to see these haplogroups for your own community (because personally I find some studies are difficult to trust). Comparing to a previous study on Palestinian from 2011 (Fernandes):
Palestinian Christians- 32% E1b1b, 11% G2a, and 9% J1
Palestinian Muslims- 38% J1, 19% E1b1b, and 6% T

I've previously heard that Palestinian Christians have a good amount of G, but your results are even more surprising. You certainly get higher J1 than the what the study found (I would've expected the J1 and J2 percentages to be switched)... I didn't find mention of G1 or J2 percentages in the study.

hartaisarlag
03-01-2019, 07:55 PM
Great work! I did the same with my Lebanese matches and it really is helpful to see these haplogroups for your own community (because personally I find some studies are difficult to trust). Comparing to a previous study on Palestinian from 2011 (Fernandes):
Palestinian Christians- 32% E1b1b, 11% G2a, and 9% J1
Palestinian Muslims- 38% J1, 19% E1b1b, and 6% T

I've previously heard that Palestinian Christians have a good amount of G, but your results are even more surprising. You certainly get higher J1 than the what the study found (I would've expected the J1 and J2 percentages to be switched)... I didn't find mention of G1 or J2 percentages in the study.

I requested access to the Fernandes paper - does anyone have it? Curious if they specify which locales they sampled from.

KingofPhoenicia001
03-01-2019, 09:56 PM
I requested access to the Fernandes paper - does anyone have it? Curious if they specify which locales they sampled from.

I got those percentages from Wikipedia which cited that study. Couldn't gain access to their supplemental data to see it for myself, unfortunately.

vettor
03-01-2019, 11:03 PM
Great work! I did the same with my Lebanese matches and it really is helpful to see these haplogroups for your own community (because personally I find some studies are difficult to trust). Comparing to a previous study on Palestinian from 2011 (Fernandes):
Palestinian Christians- 32% E1b1b, 11% G2a, and 9% J1
Palestinian Muslims- 38% J1, 19% E1b1b, and 6% T

I've previously heard that Palestinian Christians have a good amount of G, but your results are even more surprising. You certainly get higher J1 than the what the study found (I would've expected the J1 and J2 percentages to be switched)... I didn't find mention of G1 or J2 percentages in the study.

so explain, was all the noted muslims as per above, in the roman period either Jews, christians or pagans and where they in paestine or where they arrivals after the roman period?.....apart from E , the other markers origins are north of the zargos mountains ...............could they be "babylonians or persians "

hartaisarlag
03-01-2019, 11:56 PM
so explain, was all the noted muslims as per above, in the roman period either Jews, christians or pagans and where they in paestine or where they arrivals after the roman period?.....apart from E , the other markers origins are north of the zargos mountains ...............could they be "babylonians or persians "

J1 and J2 have been attested in/adjacent to Palestine as early as the Early Bronze Age, and T's been found there during the Chalcolithic.

One assumes the majority of Palestinian Muslims' ancestry traces back to autochthonous Christians, whose ancestors were either Jewish, Samaritan, or pagan. How overwhelming that majority was or wasn't is unresolved.

Agamemnon
03-02-2019, 12:30 AM
^^To be clear though, odds are J1-L862 and J2b1-M205 (which were found side by side both in Ayn Ghazal and Sidon) have been present in the Southern Levant at least since the Late Chalcolithic. IMO the samples from Peqi'in are unlikely to be representative of the entire Chalcolithic Levant, all the more so in the Southern Levant (which is also something Harney et al. repeatedly hinted at).

As for the origins of Palestinian Muslims, the vast majority of their ancestry is probably derived from Palęstina Prima's Christian population. These Christians were overwhelmingly descended from the early Jewish followers of Christianity, some were also of Samaritan descent however I'd argue that Samaritan ancestry amongst Palestinian Muslims is going to be more discernible than amongst the Christians whose Samaritan ancestry is bound to be more ancient (especially because the Samaritan and to a lesser extent Jewish revolts were the main event of the centuries following the Jewish-Roman wars, it could be argued that the Samaritans experienced genocide under the Byzantines). Canaanite polytheism basically ceased being an important feature in the Southern Levant's religious landscape under the Hasmoneans, who forcibly converted the Jews' pagan Canaanite neighbours to Judaism and destroyed their temples (as in Ashdod, where the temple of Dagon was burned to the ground by Jonathan circa 150 BCE, Ashdod subsequently became a Jewish city), the same was done to the Samaritans (yes, the Jews destroyed the Samaritan temple on Har Gerizim). The impact of the Hasmoneans' Judaisation campaigns is underestimated, all the more so if we're talking about the genetic impact they had (in my view, this was the beginning of Judaism in a form recognisable to us).

vettor
03-02-2019, 12:32 AM
J1 and J2 have been attested in/adjacent to Palestine as early as the Early Bronze Age, and T's been found there during the Chalcolithic.

One assumes the majority of Palestinian Muslims' ancestry traces back to autochthonous Christians, whose ancestors were either Jewish, Samaritan, or pagan. How overwhelming that majority was or wasn't is unresolved.

Yes , i know T arrived from black sea anatolian lands and departed the levant prior to 4000BC are per last years paper.

my question was,
did they migrate there or where they already there.....because a separation of haplogroups was made using religious categories....which I do not know why

KingofPhoenicia001
03-02-2019, 09:08 AM
Yes , i know T arrived from black sea anatolian lands and departed the levant prior to 4000BC are per last years paper.

my question was,
did they migrate there or where they already there.....because a separation of haplogroups was made using religious categories....which I do not know why

The answer to your question is not either/or. Obviously, people in this area have converted to Islam over time due to variety of factors and reasons. In addition, this area being the "Holy Land" has attracted numerous powers and ethnic groups to invade or settle. So it makes it more of a possibility for a Palestinian Muslim to have ancestors such as Arabs, Turks, Circassians, Muslim groups who could integrate. Of course, this trend is seen more in urban rather than rural areas. Separating Christians naturally factors these groups out since they have been isolated due to their religion.

artemv
03-11-2019, 06:08 PM
Great work! I did the same with my Lebanese matches and it really is helpful to see these haplogroups for your own community (because personally I find some studies are difficult to trust). Comparing to a previous study on Palestinian from 2011 (Fernandes):
Palestinian Christians- 32% E1b1b, 11% G2a, and 9% J1
Palestinian Muslims- 38% J1, 19% E1b1b, and 6% T

I've previously heard that Palestinian Christians have a good amount of G, but your results are even more surprising. You certainly get higher J1 than the what the study found (I would've expected the J1 and J2 percentages to be switched)... I didn't find mention of G1 or J2 percentages in the study.

Do not forget, that the investigation we are talking about is skewed and Jerusalem-Bethlehem area is over represented, and at the same time Galilean Christians are underrepresented, and this information is in the head post.
No doubts, Galilean Christians would be more close to Lebanese.

Just checked that in 1922 58% of Palestinian Christians lived in Jerusalem-Jaffa area and 37% in Galilee (numbers include some non-arab Christians, but there were really few of them, so I think the true proportion will stay more or less the same).

artemv
03-11-2019, 06:43 PM
As for the origins of Palestinian Muslims, the vast majority of their ancestry is probably derived from Palęstina Prima's Christian population. These Christians were overwhelmingly descended from the early Jewish followers of Christianity, some were also of Samaritan descent however I'd argue that Samaritan ancestry amongst Palestinian Muslims is going to be more discernible than amongst the Christians whose Samaritan ancestry is bound to be more ancient (especially because the Samaritan and to a lesser extent Jewish revolts were the main event of the centuries following the Jewish-Roman wars, it could be argued that the Samaritans experienced genocide under the Byzantines). Canaanite polytheism basically ceased being an important feature in the Southern Levant's religious landscape under the Hasmoneans, who forcibly converted the Jews' pagan Canaanite neighbours to Judaism and destroyed their temples (as in Ashdod, where the temple of Dagon was burned to the ground by Jonathan circa 150 BCE, Ashdod subsequently became a Jewish city), the same was done to the Samaritans (yes, the Jews destroyed the Samaritan temple on Har Gerizim). The impact of the Hasmoneans' Judaisation campaigns is underestimated, all the more so if we're talking about the genetic impact they had (in my view, this was the beginning of Judaism in a form recognisable to us).

Canaanite polytheism basically ceased being an important feature in the Southern Levant's religious landscape under the Hasmoneans, but not Hellenic-style polytheism. Hellenised Levantines were an important factor as late as at the end of 4th century, and they made majority in Judea for about 2 hundred years after failed Jewish rebellions. Those Hellenic polytheists are the primary source for Palestinian Arab Christians, and while Jewish converts, First Christians and later Christian migrations are the secondary source.

Not sure that Palestinian Muslims trace most of their ancestry to the same group.
Bedouins, are no doubt mostly migrants from Arabian peninsula, settled Arabs others trace significant portions of their ancestry to neighboring regions and Arab peninsula(less ancestry of course, if compared to Bedouins). There was for example a massive migration from Egypt and Syria in 1922-1936 into British Palestine, and this migration can be easily seen by family names.

Batroun
03-12-2019, 05:32 AM
Canaanite polytheism basically ceased being an important feature in the Southern Levant's religious landscape under the Hasmoneans, but not Hellenic-style polytheism. Hellenised Levantines were an important factor as late as at the end of 4th century, and they made majority in Judea for about 2 hundred years after failed Jewish rebellions. Those Hellenic polytheists are the primary source for Palestinian Arab Christians, and while Jewish converts, First Christians and later Christian migrations are the secondary source.

Not sure that Palestinian Muslims trace most of their ancestry to the same group.
Bedouins, are no doubt mostly migrants from Arabian peninsula, settled Arabs others trace significant portions of their ancestry to neighboring regions and Arab peninsula(less ancestry of course, if compared to Bedouins). There was for example a massive migration from Egypt and Syria in 1922-1936 into British Palestine, and this migration can be easily seen by family names.

Im slightly confused, are you saying that that Palestinian Christians derive most of their from the natives of that area while Muslims may not? I agree that theres a good amount of Palestinian muslims who may trace their lineages to either Arabia or Egypt, it seems hard to believe that MOST dont trace a lot of their aDNA and even Ydna from the Levant

artemv
03-12-2019, 08:46 PM
Im slightly confused, are you saying that that Palestinian Christians derive most of their from the natives of that area while Muslims may not? I agree that theres a good amount of Palestinian muslims who may trace their lineages to either Arabia or Egypt, it seems hard to believe that MOST dont trace a lot of their aDNA and even Ydna from the Levant

1. So, generally I think that about half of Palestinian Muslims DNA has non-Levantine origin.
2. It looks like Muslim immigrants to Palestine in different times were either sex-balanced or male-dominant. So, probably Palestinian Muslims trace less of their Y-DNA to Levantines compared to their autosomal ancestry.

So, during late Mameluke - early Ottoman times, the Palestine population was about 150-200 thousand people, with strong Muslim majority.
About 30% of population lived in walled cities, about 15% of population were Bedouins, who partly relied on herding, but mostly - on demanding money prom peasants for "protection", "getting" money from traders or from Muslims aiming to visit Mecca/Medina (hajj).
The rest were peasants, who mostly lived in a hill area of Jehuda/Samaria/Galilea.
This was not a typical situation for the time, as in most countries the share of peasants was much higher.

Muslim population of cities was mostly of non-local heritage, at least by male line. The region was ruled either from Cairo or from Istanbul, and there was a constant flow of administrators, soldiers and traders from outside.
Same is also true for the bedouin, as they trace little of their ancestry to pre-Muslim population.
Peasants were mostly converts from local pre-muslim population.
At this period there was also a flow of Sub-Saharan slaves, but they were mostly in cities or with bedouin tribes.

In 1840 direct Ottoman rule was restored, and this greatly increased safety, protecting peasants and travelers from bedouin. This triggered rapid population growth and at the same time the process of mass migration from Egypt to Palestine. The migrants were peasants pushed out from Egypt by lack of farming land, they mostly settled in the free territories along the coastal plane. There were a number of whole Egyptian villages in the coastal plane, as well as Egyptian majority suburbs of Jaffa. Peasants from Egypt settled densely also in the Northern part of coastal plane, near modern cities of Hadera and Netania, and in what is now 'Arab triangle', Um-el'Fahm and neighboring villages. There were tensions between the newcomers and locals, who had differences in culture, and those tensions were only settled down after Jewish mass-migration and the beginning of Arab-Jewish conflict.

So my prediction:
Arabs from Gaza Strip, including descendants of those who moved there from coastal plane villages in 1947-1948, will be overwhelmingly non-Levantine by origin, tracing maybe 80%-90% of their DNA either to Arab Peninsula or to Egypt. Palestinian Bedouins will have about the same percent of Levantine DNA, but will trace more ancestry to Arab Peninsula and to Sub-Saharan Africa, and less to Egypt.
Muslim Arabs from Judea and muslim descendants from coastal cities like Ramla, Lod, Jaffa and other places in the area will show about 50% non-Levantine admixture, and only Muslims from Samaria and Galilea will trace majority of their ancestry to pre-Muslim population of the region. But even they will have a significant percent of Arabian and Egyptian ancestry - maybe 25%-30%.

Govan
03-12-2019, 09:12 PM
You are daydreaming.

K33
03-13-2019, 06:57 AM
Canaanite polytheism basically ceased being an important feature in the Southern Levant's religious landscape under the Hasmoneans, but not Hellenic-style polytheism. Hellenised Levantines were an important factor as late as at the end of 4th century, and they made majority in Judea for about 2 hundred years after failed Jewish rebellions. Those Hellenic polytheists are the primary source for Palestinian Arab Christians, and while Jewish converts, First Christians and later Christian migrations are the secondary source.That's very dubious, do you have any evidence for this? And what "later Christian migrations" exactly are you talking about?

50%+ of pre-Slavic Greek y-DNA is going to belong to R-L23, I2a2, or various mostly Euro-specific clades of J2. If Palestinian Christians derived anywhere close to the majority of their ancestry from a "Hellenized" population they'd certainly have considerable proportions of these y-lineages, but that's not at all what the survey indicates.

The reality is, Palestinian Christians are overwhelmingly descended from Jewish converts from the local area. They are going to be the best source available for modelling the Levantine ancestry in Ashkenazim, save perhaps for Samaritans.


Not sure that Palestinian Muslims trace most of their ancestry to the same group.
Bedouins, are no doubt mostly migrants from Arabian peninsula, settled Arabs others trace significant portions of their ancestry to neighboring regions and Arab peninsula(less ancestry of course, if compared to Bedouins).The Negev Bedouin share more direct ancestry from the Natufian and Neolithic Levantine populations than any other modern Levantine populations. Peninsular Arabs might have similar proportions of Natufian-like ancestry, but that may be because Natufian-like presence extended into the Peninsula since Mesolithic times (we simply don't know). The Negev represents a shift in ecotone from the Fertile Crescent-- it's probably been more closely tied genetically to Arabia than to the rest of the Levant since the advent of pastoralism.

I just saw your next post:


So my prediction:
Arabs from Gaza Strip, including descendants of those who moved there from coastal plane villages in 1947-1948, will be overwhelmingly non-Levantine by origin, tracing maybe 80%-90% of their DNA either to Arab Peninsula or to Egypt. Palestinian Bedouins will have about the same percent of Levantine DNA, but will trace more ancestry to Arab Peninsula and to Sub-Saharan Africa, and less to Egypt.
Muslim Arabs from Judea and muslim descendants from coastal cities like Ramla, Lod, Jaffa and other places in the area will show about 50% non-Levantine admixture, and only Muslims from Samaria and Galilea will trace majority of their ancestry to pre-Muslim population of the region. But even they will have a significant percent of Arabian and Egyptian ancestry - maybe 25%-30%. LOL, you are conjuring these admixture proportions out of thin air.

Erikl86
03-13-2019, 09:05 AM
1. So, generally I think that about half of Palestinian Muslims DNA has non-Levantine origin.
2. It looks like Muslim immigrants to Palestine in different times were either sex-balanced or male-dominant. So, probably Palestinian Muslims trace less of their Y-DNA to Levantines compared to their autosomal ancestry.

So, during late Mameluke - early Ottoman times, the Palestine population was about 150-200 thousand people, with strong Muslim majority.
About 30% of population lived in walled cities, about 15% of population were Bedouins, who partly relied on herding, but mostly - on demanding money prom peasants for "protection", "getting" money from traders or from Muslims aiming to visit Mecca/Medina (hajj).
The rest were peasants, who mostly lived in a hill area of Jehuda/Samaria/Galilea.
This was not a typical situation for the time, as in most countries the share of peasants was much higher.

Muslim population of cities was mostly of non-local heritage, at least by male line. The region was ruled either from Cairo or from Istanbul, and there was a constant flow of administrators, soldiers and traders from outside.
Same is also true for the bedouin, as they trace little of their ancestry to pre-Muslim population.
Peasants were mostly converts from local pre-muslim population.
At this period there was also a flow of Sub-Saharan slaves, but they were mostly in cities or with bedouin tribes.

In 1840 direct Ottoman rule was restored, and this greatly increased safety, protecting peasants and travelers from bedouin. This triggered rapid population growth and at the same time the process of mass migration from Egypt to Palestine. The migrants were peasants pushed out from Egypt by lack of farming land, they mostly settled in the free territories along the coastal plane. There were a number of whole Egyptian villages in the coastal plane, as well as Egyptian majority suburbs of Jaffa. Peasants from Egypt settled densely also in the Northern part of coastal plane, near modern cities of Hadera and Netania, and in what is now 'Arab triangle', Um-el'Fahm and neighboring villages. There were tensions between the newcomers and locals, who had differences in culture, and those tensions were only settled down after Jewish mass-migration and the beginning of Arab-Jewish conflict.

So my prediction:
Arabs from Gaza Strip, including descendants of those who moved there from coastal plane villages in 1947-1948, will be overwhelmingly non-Levantine by origin, tracing maybe 80%-90% of their DNA either to Arab Peninsula or to Egypt. Palestinian Bedouins will have about the same percent of Levantine DNA, but will trace more ancestry to Arab Peninsula and to Sub-Saharan Africa, and less to Egypt.
Muslim Arabs from Judea and muslim descendants from coastal cities like Ramla, Lod, Jaffa and other places in the area will show about 50% non-Levantine admixture, and only Muslims from Samaria and Galilea will trace majority of their ancestry to pre-Muslim population of the region. But even they will have a significant percent of Arabian and Egyptian ancestry - maybe 25%-30%.

This is extremely false.

First of all, there is no point in dividing Palestinians in this way, because the majority of populations in Gaza do not descend from actual Gazans, but from refugees which during the Israeli independence war found themselves in the Gaza Strip and came from Jaffa, Ramle, Ashkelon etc.

I would believe that if it wasn't for that war and the events of the 20th century, there would be a cline of Egyptian admixture among Muslim Palestinians, probably culminating in Gazans. But that is irrelevant at the moment.

Muslim Palestinians are largely descended from Levantines, with significant Arabian and N. African admixture, but no more than 20-30% top.

Bedouins didn't settle in any permanent residence until the late 20th century anywhere in the Middle East, so they contributed very little to any Palestinian gene pool.

Christian Palestinians are by large almost identical to either Samaritans or Lebanese - and show almost no admixture with North Africans, SSA populations or Southern Middle Easterners, despite the famous Ghassanids.

I wouldn't go as far as claiming they are descendants of only Jews and Samaritans, because there were other Levantines in the region (despite Judaism becoming quite popular in the 1st-2nd centuries in the Roman Empire), and once the region converted to Christianity, they would all mix and marry each other. But at least in Samaria, we know several important Muslim clans that have converted quite recently to Islam - as late as the 16th century.

On a more personal tone, I just happen to hold political views that would naturally embrace this false narrative of Palestinian history (that they do not descend from indigenous populations), so one might say it would be my agenda to agree with your opinions, atermv. However, before my political stand, I'm also honest and try to be as non-biased as I can - and we have to look at what the current up-to-date data provides us with.

Muslim Palestinians are Levantines with 20-30% non-local admixture (as I said - mostly Arab and North African with some SSA), while Christian Palestinians are almost entirely pristine Northern Levantines.

John Doe
03-13-2019, 09:28 AM
This is extremely false.

First of all, there is no point in dividing Palestinians in this way, because the majority of populations in Gaza do not descend from actual Gazans, but from refugees which during the Israeli independence war found themselves in the Gaza Strip and came from Jaffa, Ramle, Ashkelon etc.

I would believe that if it wasn't for that war and the events of the 20th century, there would be a cline of Egyptian admixture among Muslim Palestinians, probably culminating in Gazans. But that is irrelevant at the moment.

Muslim Palestinians are largely descended from Levantines, with significant Arabian and N. African admixture, but no more than 20-30% top.

Bedouins didn't settle in any permanent residence until the late 20th century anywhere in the Middle East, so they contributed very little to any Palestinian gene pool.

Christian Palestinians are by large almost identical to either Samaritans or Lebanese - and show almost no admixture with North Africans, SSA populations or Southern Middle Easterners, despite the famous Ghassanids.

I wouldn't go as far as claiming they are descendants of only Jews and Samaritans, because there were other Levantines in the region (despite Judaism becoming quite popular in the 1st-2nd centuries in the Roman Empire), and once the region converted to Christianity, they would all mix and marry each other. But at least in Samaria, we know several important Muslim clans that have converted quite recently to Islam - as late as the 16th century.

On a more personal tone, I just happen to hold political views that would naturally embrace this false narrative of Palestinian history (that they do not descend from indigenous populations), so one might say it would be my agenda to agree with your opinions, atermv. However, before my political stand, I'm also honest and try to be as non-biased as I can - and we have to look at what the current up-to-date data provides us with.

Muslim Palestinians are Levantines with 20-30% non-local admixture (as I said - mostly Arab and North African with some SSA), while Christian Palestinians are almost entirely pristine Northern Levantines.

I have a question about this actually, because I hear a lot of people talking about a large migration of Arabs from throughout the Middle East in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to the Levant coming to work on the Hejaz railway as well as in ports such as Haifa and Jaffa, wanted to hear your opinion on that, is there any data to back this? Also heard that a lot of surnames of Israeli Arabs and Palestinians denote foreign origin (Husseini, Misri and even Zoabi ;-))

Erikl86
03-13-2019, 10:16 AM
I have a question about this actually, because I hear a lot of people talking about a large migration of Arabs from throughout the Middle East in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to the Levant coming to work on the Hejaz railway as well as in ports such as Haifa and Jaffa, wanted to hear your opinion on that, is there any data to back this? Also heard that a lot of surnames of Israeli Arabs and Palestinians denote foreign origin (Husseini, Misri and even Zoabi ;-))

Before seeing the genetic data, I actually believed that substantial amount of Muslim Palestinians indeed descend from populations from all around the Middle East. I now no longer believe this. The family names might represent origin of very few people that settled and intermarried with local people.

UNLESS, of course, for some weird reason all the admixtures from around the Middle East with the local Levantine populations ended up balancing each other out and still put Palestinians to plot among Levantines.

Btw, here's the GEDmatch results of a Muslim Palestinian of Gazan descent (not from a refugee camp there):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 41.69
2 Red_Sea 17.77
3 West_Asian 15.16
4 West_Med 10.07
5 Northeast_African 5.4
6 Atlantic 2.51
7 Sub-Saharan 2.4
8 Baltic 2.09
9 North_Sea 1.79
10 Siberian 0.61
11 Amerindian 0.29
12 Oceanian 0.21


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Jordanian 4.44
2 Palestinian 4.51
3 Bedouin 5.59
4 Samaritan 7.63
5 Syrian 7.76
6 Lebanese_Christian 10.2
7 Lebanese_Muslim 10.53
8 Egyptian 11.77
9 Libyan_Jewish 12.06
10 Tunisian_Jewish 12.58
11 Lebanese_Druze 13.07
12 Cyprian 13.29
13 Kurdish_Jewish 15.23
14 Iranian_Jewish 15.78
15 Sephardic_Jewish 16.28
16 Algerian_Jewish 17.04
17 Yemenite_Jewish 17.45
18 Italian_Jewish 17.52
19 Saudi 17.74
20 Assyrian 18.16


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 58.5% Bedouin + 41.5% Samaritan @ 1.96
2 65.9% Bedouin + 34.1% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.1
3 72.8% Bedouin + 27.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.92
4 58.8% Palestinian + 41.2% Bedouin @ 3.13
5 73.8% Bedouin + 26.2% Cyprian @ 3.2
6 85.4% Jordanian + 14.6% Saudi @ 3.3
7 61.6% Jordanian + 38.4% Bedouin @ 3.53
8 70% Bedouin + 30% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.64
9 91.6% Palestinian + 8.4% Moroccan @ 3.75
10 54% Lebanese_Christian + 46% Egyptian @ 3.75
11 91.2% Palestinian + 8.8% Algerian @ 3.83
12 88.4% Jordanian + 11.6% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.84
13 78.4% Bedouin + 21.6% Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.84
14 92.4% Palestinian + 7.6% Mozabite_Berber @ 3.86
15 71.7% Syrian + 28.3% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.87
16 62.8% Samaritan + 37.2% Egyptian @ 3.88
17 76% Jordanian + 24% Samaritan @ 3.93
18 91.5% Palestinian + 8.5% Tunisian @ 3.95
19 51.7% Jordanian + 48.3% Palestinian @ 3.96
20 62.9% Bedouin + 37.1% Syrian @ 3.97


^ while indeed seem to have more Bedouin descent, it also has substantial Levantine admixture.

Ruderico
03-13-2019, 10:43 AM
^ while indeed seem to have more Bedouin descent, it also has substantial Levantine admixture.

Be careful with those Gedmatch Oracles, I also get a brutal amount of Cantabrian (K13) or Basque (K15) - with some aditional north African because these groups have very low amounts - and I'm neither. This case can be just perfectly normal variation aswell

Erikl86
03-13-2019, 11:00 AM
Be careful with those Gedmatch Oracles, I also get a brutal amount of Cantabrian (K13) or Basque (K15) - with some aditional north African because these groups have very low amounts - and I'm neither. This case can be just perfectly normal variation aswell

Agreed .

LTG
03-13-2019, 01:25 PM
The Palestinians are native to the land.

[1] "distance%=2.5591"

Palestinian

Levant_BA_North,72
BedouinB,11.4
Mozabite,8.4
Mycenaean,6.2
Somali,1.2
Yoruba,0.8

Agamemnon
03-13-2019, 02:51 PM
The Palestinians are native to the land.

[1] "distance%=2.5591"

Palestinian

Levant_BA_North,72
BedouinB,11.4
Mozabite,8.4
Mycenaean,6.2
Somali,1.2
Yoruba,0.8

I can understand the inclusion of the Mozabites and the Yoruba in the fit, what I don't get though is the inclusion of the Mycenaeans and the Somalis (unless this is simply for control purposes). I mean let's face it, it's pretty unlikely the Palestinian reference has genuine Greek ancestry (even in small amounts such as in the fit here), same thing for Somali ancestry.

John Doe
03-13-2019, 03:21 PM
I can understand the inclusion of the Mozabites and the Yoruba in the fit, what I don't get though is the inclusion of the Mycenaeans and the Somalis (unless this is simply for control purposes). I mean let's face it, it's pretty unlikely the Palestinian reference has genuine Greek ancestry (even in small amounts such as in the fit here), same thing for Somali ancestry.

Couldn't Somali represent the admixture from the Arab slave trade?

jonahst
03-13-2019, 03:21 PM
This is extremely false.

First of all, there is no point in dividing Palestinians in this way, because the majority of populations in Gaza do not descend from actual Gazans, but from refugees which during the Israeli independence war found themselves in the Gaza Strip and came from Jaffa, Ramle, Ashkelon etc.

I would believe that if it wasn't for that war and the events of the 20th century, there would be a cline of Egyptian admixture among Muslim Palestinians, probably culminating in Gazans. But that is irrelevant at the moment.

Muslim Palestinians are largely descended from Levantines, with significant Arabian and N. African admixture, but no more than 20-30% top.

Bedouins didn't settle in any permanent residence until the late 20th century anywhere in the Middle East, so they contributed very little to any Palestinian gene pool.

Christian Palestinians are by large almost identical to either Samaritans or Lebanese - and show almost no admixture with North Africans, SSA populations or Southern Middle Easterners, despite the famous Ghassanids.

I wouldn't go as far as claiming they are descendants of only Jews and Samaritans, because there were other Levantines in the region (despite Judaism becoming quite popular in the 1st-2nd centuries in the Roman Empire), and once the region converted to Christianity, they would all mix and marry each other. But at least in Samaria, we know several important Muslim clans that have converted quite recently to Islam - as late as the 16th century.

On a more personal tone, I just happen to hold political views that would naturally embrace this false narrative of Palestinian history (that they do not descend from indigenous populations), so one might say it would be my agenda to agree with your opinions, atermv. However, before my political stand, I'm also honest and try to be as non-biased as I can - and we have to look at what the current up-to-date data provides us with.

Muslim Palestinians are Levantines with 20-30% non-local admixture (as I said - mostly Arab and North African with some SSA), while Christian Palestinians are almost entirely pristine Northern Levantines.

I agree with you about Palestinian Christians, but I think Muslims might be slightly more admixed than that on average.

Does anyone know details about the G25 Palestinian samples? When modeling them with modern populations (since we have no ancient samples for many important regions), they do get extremely high Egyptian, which I think is largely due to the high East and North African. I wouldn't read these results literally, but I do think they're indicative of something.

I guess it's also important to remember that modern Egyptians are mostly Levant BA North when modeling with ancient samples...

Govan
03-13-2019, 03:30 PM
Palestinians are more native to Palestine than the Jews just accept it. Jews are pretty much foreigners to Palestine. Now thousands of stateless and homeless Palestinians live in Lebanon, UAE, USA. If a group of Feroese people settle in Norway they would be foreigners too more than native Norwegians, doesn't matter if Feroese is closer to Old Norse.

This is a neutral, scientific-centered forums. Not a womb for baseless nationalist claims ą la Bernard Henry Levy.

Erikl86
03-13-2019, 03:32 PM
Couldn't Somali represent the admixture from the Arab slave trade?

Tanzania 1400 BP is much better, because this is where most SSA slaves actually arrived from. The name - Zanzibar (in Tanzania) actually comes from the Arabic word "Zanj" - which is the derogatory name Arabs called African slaves. In a sense, Zanzibar was to the Arabic-speaking Muslim world what was the Bight of Biafra, the Bight of Benin and the Gambia River slave ports combined were to the SSA transatlantic slave trade.

Erikl86
03-13-2019, 03:44 PM
Palestinians are more native to Palestine than the Jews just accept it. Jews are pretty much foreigners to Palestine. Now thousands of stateless abd homeless Palestinians live in Lebanon, UAE, USA. If a group of Feroese people settle in Norway they would be foreigners too more than native Norwegians, doesn't matter if Feroese is closer to Old Norse.

This is a neutral, scientific-centered forums. Not a womb for baseless nationalist claims ą la Bernard Henry Levy.

And here's the political TA-like speech I was trying to prevent from going into in this thread...

Jews are as native to the Levant as Palestinians are, period. In a fact, Jews also adhere to a culture and a religion with roots which goes back several millennia before any hint of the current culture Palestinians have had.

The fact that almost all of us descend from native Levantines, have Levantine uniparentals via our paternal lineages, and there have always been a Jewish community living in the land - proves this. The fact that also, aside from the city of Ramle, virtually all cities and towns in "Palestine" carry the same Biblical names, just translated into Arabic, also proves this.

As for your example with the Feroese vs. Norwegians, well, it's a false one. A better analogy would be that a group of Norwegians were banished by a bunch of French people into exile some millennia ago, where these Norwegians, after taking some local French wives to keep their community going, decided only to marry within themselves, have kept (as close as they can) the Norwegian culture and language, and essentially still carry Norwegian uniparentals, but they were unable to return home, as in the same time, Norway had become culturally French, with the local Norwegians intermarrying with the new French occupiers, and accepting their culture and language. After the French, Russians also conquered Norway, with a new religion altogether, and the remaining population then adopted Russian language, identity, language and intermarried with Russians.

Then finally after generations upon generations of persecution and being an oppressed minority, the exiled-Norwegians got the chance to come back home and create a home in their ancestral homeland.

Now would you then not consider them to be as much as native as those previously French, now Russians of Norwegian ancestry?

Govan
03-13-2019, 03:55 PM
Really? Aren't you the one who claims Jews are 60% Aegean and only 30% Levantine?

Wasn't this the whole point of your thread?

The Arabization of Levantines is hugely exaggerated by people who don't know much or anything about the Arab world. You can't exchange Palestinians with Saudis or Egyptians. The food and dance(Dabkeh) of Levantines show more interactions with Anatolian Turks and Kurds than with Arabia in the last centuries.

LTG
03-13-2019, 03:56 PM
I can understand the inclusion of the Mozabites and the Yoruba in the fit, what I don't get though is the inclusion of the Mycenaeans and the Somalis (unless this is simply for control purposes). I mean let's face it, it's pretty unlikely the Palestinian reference has genuine Greek ancestry (even in small amounts such as in the fit here), same thing for Somali ancestry.

I included the Mycenaeans because one of the posters above theorised that Palestinians owed some of their ancestry to Hellenic people. It also serves as a good component to cover general Southern European ancestry that they may have absorbed when under Roman occupation. The Somali was simply thrown in to cover all bases when it comes to African ancestry. None of this is of any real importance because these ancestries appear to be minor. The main point of the analysis is to show that Palestinians derive the overwhelming majority of their ancestry from native Levantines rather than invading people from across the Arab world.

hartaisarlag
03-13-2019, 03:59 PM
And here's the political TA-like speech I was trying to prevent from going into in this thread...

Jews are as native to the Levant as Palestinians are, period. In a fact, Jews also adhere to a culture and a religion with roots which goes back several millennia before any hint of the current culture Palestinians have had.

The fact that almost all of us descend from native Levantines, have Levantine uniparentals via our paternal lineages, and there have always been a Jewish community living in the land - proves this. The fact that also, aside from the city of Ramle, virtually all cities and towns in "Palestine" carry the same Biblical names, just translated into Arabic, also proves this.

As for your example with the Feroese vs. Norwegians, well, it's a false one. A better analogy would be that a group of Norwegians were banished by a bunch of French people into exile some millennia ago, where these Norwegians, after taking some local French wives to keep their community going, decided only to marry within themselves, have kept (as close as they can) the Norwegian culture and language, and essentially still carry Norwegian uniparentals, but they were unable to return home, as in the same time, Norway had become culturally French, with the local Norwegians intermarrying with the new French occupiers, and accepting their culture and language. After the French, Russians also conquered Norway, with a new religion altogether, and the remaining population then adopted Russian language, identity, language and intermarried with Russians.

Then finally after generations upon generations of persecution and being an oppressed minority, the exiled-Norwegians got the chance to come back home and create a home in their ancestral homeland.

Now would you then not consider them to be as much as native as those previously French, now Russians of Norwegian ancestry?

Amen. My only quibble is that many people underestimate the continuity of Canaanite/Israelite folkways preserved by Palestinian fellahin into the 20th century. It’s not a subject I’m an expert on, but Tawfiq Canaan’s work is pretty persuasive. We kept the religion, the language, and the consciousness of ancient origins; they kept the rest (in a more informal, local way). Also, I’m center-left on ‘the conflict’, but as you and Aga have demonstrated gracefully, personal politics are beside the point.

Erikl86
03-13-2019, 04:10 PM
Really? Aren't you the one who claims Jews are 60% Aegean and only 30% Levantine?

Wasn't this the whole point of ypur thread?

The Arabization of Levantines is hugely exaggerated by people who don't know much or anything about the Arab world. You can't exchange Palestinians with Saudis or Egyptians. The food and dance(Dabkeh) of Levantines show more interactions with Anatolian Turks and Kurds than with Arabia in the last centuries.

Yes, this was the "point" of my thread, but it wasn't politically motivated, plus it assumes that a lot of this admixture had already happened in the Levant itself, even before Jews left the Eastern Mediterranean shores.

Nobody claims the entirety of Arabic culture is monolithic, but wasn't it the Palestinians themselves, who claimed they are Arabs until not long ago? Now in the last few years they began claiming they are Canaanites, so they can claim that they have roots going further back than Jews.

But just look at the Samaritans - do they seem to you closer in culture to Jews, or Palestinians? And what about Syrian Jews? or Musta'arabi Jews which lived in Hebron, Tzfat and Peqi'in? and Iraqi Jews, that despite having substantial Mesopotamian admixture, alot of them still cluster among Levantines?

Is a Lebanese which is half Lebanese, half Italian/Greek, that hold true to the language and religion of the native population, should feel any less at home in Lebanon than a Lebanese which is a third North-Afircan/Arabic, 2/3 Lebanese, that adopted a different culture and a language brought in by a later conqueror?

Jeez. Instead of allowing genetics and the newfound shared ancestry to get us closer, you keep bickering. "I'm 2/3 Levantine, while you are only 1/2 Levantine at best! Ah!". I don't know if you are a Palestinian or not, but really, this kind of thinking - always looking at the glass half empty - is what will keep this conflict going on and on forever.

EDIT: Right, to prevent from this to deteriorate any longer, I won't be taking the political bait anymore - let's keep politics out of this excellent website !

Govan
03-13-2019, 04:39 PM
I'm half Algerian Berber half Danish. I don't have any link with Levant or Palestine.

But this Arab stuff is long time running BS. The vast majority of low IQs self identified Arabs such as Egyptian Copts, Arabians, Maghrebis, Levantines don't share the same culture. The culture of Palestinians is to me a mixture of Arab, Levantine and something trans-Anatolian (lots of similarities with Kurds, Turks etc).

My Algerian's mother culture is a mixture of French, Berber and Arab cultures with a dash of something Trans-Andalusian.

Just like you Israelis are a mixture of the whole world. In Israel there is a common trans-Jewish culture but alot of Moroccan, Tunisian, Yemeni, 'Ashkenazi' (?), Iranian, Indian, Ethiopian culture mixed in.

Only real Arabian cultured people are from Arabia and Bedouin folks.

MacUalraig
03-13-2019, 04:46 PM
I'm half Algerian Berber half Danish. I don't have any link with Levant or Palestine.

But this Arab stuff is long time running BS. The vast majority of low IQs self identified Arabs such as Egyptian Copts, Arabians, Maghrebis, Levantines don't share the same culture. The culture of Palestinians is to me a mixture of Arab, Levantine and something trans-Anatolian (lots of similarities with Kurds, Turks etc).

My Algerian's mother culture is a mixture of French, Berber and Arab cultures with a dash of something Trans-Andalusian.

Just like you Israelis are a mixture of the whole world. In Israel there is a common trans-Jewish culture but alot of Moroccan, Tunisian, Yemeni, 'Ashkenazi' (?), Iranian, Indian, Ethiopian culture mixed in.

Only real Arabian cultured people are from Arabia and Bedouin folks.

You used to be Anglo-Irish not long ago:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1782-What-ethnic-groups-do-you-relate-yourself-to&p=245116&viewfull=1#post245116

K33
03-13-2019, 04:50 PM
We don't have Palestinian Christian coordinates but as per Iseid0441's K13 PCA, the centroid of the Pali Christian samples he gathered was directly between Samaritan and Lebanese_Christian. I created a synthetic Palestinian Christian G25 target by using a simple average of the G25 Samaritan and Lebanese_Christian coordinates.

BedouinB is added to account for supposed Islamic-era "Arabian" admixture, Egyptian for North African admixture, and Yoruba for SSA admixture. Default overfitting penalty is ON:

"sample": "Test1: Palestinian_Christian_Synthetic",
"fit": 1.5868,
"Levant_BA_North": 94.17,
"Catacomb": 5.83,
"BedouinB": 0,
"Egyptian": 0,
"Levant_BA_South": 0,
"Yoruba": 0,

Levant_BA_North was from Sidon, which was literally an early Caananite city. So Palestinian Christians can be modeled as 94% Canaanite + ~6% steppe-related, in other words. But how did a 6% pure "Steppe_EMBA"-like population contribute to the late BA Levant?

You can use more proximate, maybe vaguely plausible steppe-related sources (Mycenaean=Sea Peoples, Hellenic colonists?, Haji Firuz_BA=???) and the fit improves while Levant_BA_North declines, but even if these donor populations are genuine, then the entire Levantine Jewish population must have had this type of admixture no later than Hellenistic times anyway.

"sample": "Test1: Palestinian_Christian_Synthetic",
"fit": 1.3582,
"Levant_BA_North": 85.83,
"Hajji_Firuz_BA": 7.5,
"Mycenaean": 6.67,
"BedouinB": 0,
"Egyptian": 0,
"Levant_BA_South": 0,
"Yoruba": 0,

As for the Palestinian HGDP samples, HGDP says they're are all from the Central District of Israel (http://www.cephb.fr/hgdp/table.php), with no other details. The G25 reference uses 12 of the 51 (I guess David excluded all related individuals?):

"sample": "Test1: Palestinian",
"fit": 1.0258,
"Levant_BA_North": 59.17,
"Egyptian": 21.67,
"Catacomb": 8.33,
"Levant_BA_South": 7.5,
"Yoruba": 2.5,

These are more heterogeneous than the Christian reference, but the Palestinian Muslim sample is at the very least 70-75% derived from what was likely the Roman-era Jewish population (besides Egyptian and Yoruba, probably everything else including most of Levant_BA_South -- yes, Levant_BA_South is from Jordan but some type of North-South BA Levant cline probably existed all the way to the Mediterranean coast)

It's also a mistake to assume ALL of the "Egyptian" admixture is from post-Islamic times. Some of it might indeed have arrived long before that-- the Canaanite population of Ashkelon could very well have been just as "Egyptian-shifted" as modern Muslim Palestinians, but this type of admixture never made it to the inland and upland Christian/Jewish populations of the Judean Hills or Galilee. Again we just don't know.

I'd also mention you can get a pretty good fit even when taking out the Egyptian reference, so the above model could just be overfitted anyway:


"sample": "Test1: Palestinian",
"fit": 1.6084,
"Levant_BA_North": 68.33,
"Levant_BA_South": 13.33,
"Catacomb": 9.17,
"BedouinB": 5,
"Yoruba": 4.17,

Govan
03-13-2019, 04:52 PM
You used to be Anglo-Irish not long ago:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1782-What-ethnic-groups-do-you-relate-yourself-to&p=245116&viewfull=1#post245116
That's my boyfriend's.

artemv
03-14-2019, 02:01 AM
50%+ of pre-Slavic Greek y-DNA is going to belong to R-L23, I2a2, or various mostly Euro-specific clades of J2. If Palestinian Christians derived anywhere close to the majority of their ancestry from a "Hellenized" population they'd certainly have considerable proportions of these y-lineages, but that's not at all what the survey indicates.
When I wrote Hellenised (probably it would be better to write "Hellenist") I meant religion, culture and language, but not genetics.
In another post I stated that I consider Palestine Christians to be mostly local genetically.

Just please read carefully what I wrote:

Canaanite polytheism basically ceased being an important feature in the Southern Levant's religious landscape under the Hasmoneans, but not Hellenic-style polytheism. Hellenised Levantines were an important factor as late as at the end of 4th century,
Where do you see a statement about Greek ancestry? From the context it can be clear that I wrote about religion.
Hellenised Levantines meant Levantines, converted from some local version of polytheism to the Hellenic-style polytheism, as well as adopting Greek language and to some degree contemporary Greek culture (ok, I will not use the term "Hellenised" later, will say Hellenist or Hellenic, meaning first of all religious practices, but also culture and language).

There were polytheists that practiced some local-born religion, like for example Idumeans before Hasmonean conquest.
Those beliefs became extinct soon after Hasmonean conquest.
But there was another sort of polytheist religion - imported from Greece, that had strong presence in the region since Alexander the Great.
Agamemnon wrote that Hasmoneans put an end to Canaanite polytheism, and that's true.
But Hellenic-style polytheism was not just alive, it played an important role in the region until mass conversion to Christian faith, that started after Constantine got to power and ended about two hundred years later.

So, here I will state some facts about polytheists in Palestine after Hasmonean rule.
Ashdod and Acco were cities never controlled by Hasmoneans, and they were Hellenist polytheist cities.
It is true that Hasmoneans destroyed the Hellenist cities when they conquered all the area outside of original Judea, and those who lived there were partially expelled, partially killed, partially converted.
But right after Pompay has captured Jerusalem in 66 BC, and Judea became Roman province, many Hellenistic cities were rebuilt, and polytheists, who lived there, returned. Those rebuilt polytheist cities include: Gadara, Hippos, Scythopolis (we know it today as Beit-Shean), Pella, Dium, Samaria, Marisa, Azotus, Jamni, Arethusa, Gaza, Joppa, Dora, Straton's Tower (sinсe Herod's time it is Ceasarea). All this were cities with strong polytheist majority, and they flourished during the Herod's dynasty rule and later under direct Roman rule. Some of those cities were captured during the Jewish revolts, but they were rebuilt later. All of them maintained their polytheist majority until the Constantine's rule.
After revolt of Bar-Kochba has failed, and many Jews from the Judea region were either killed, sold to slavery or expelled, and polytheists became majority in the Judea (there was both Samaritans and Jewish presence, as well as some early Christians, but polytheists were a majority) and archaeological data confirms this. Good example is Scythopolis, it is possible to see that local polytheist temple was rebuilt and later used as a church.

In the time when Constantine got to power, and started the process of mass conversion to Christian faith Jews probably were majority only in Galilee (but there was strong polytheist presence in Galilee also). On the Samaritan hills probably Samaritans made majority, in all the other regions of former Hasmonean Kingdom there was polytheist majority.

All these Hellenist-style polytheists, who spoke Greek and adopted Hellenistic, later Roman culture, converted to Christianity. And they made the most important contribution to the genetics of Christians of the region.
During Byzantine period many Jews also had to convert to Christian faith, but their role is secondary, as we know that Jews were not a majority and not all Jews converted, but the polytheists were a majority and finally all of them converted.


And what "later Christian migrations" exactly are you talking about?
Generally, all the christian migration into the Palestine since Byzantine times to today.
All the time Christians moved to the Palestine because they consider it Holy Land.
Most migrants were monks and left no impact on the genetics, but some were not.
We know that some crusaders stayed here after the Crusader Jerusalem Kingdom defeat, there were Greek communities at different time, finally in late Ottoman period there were French, American and German colonies.
I know, that none of this events was really a mass migration.
But we should remember that in 16th-18th century number of Christians is the region was very small, in some periods even less than 10 thousand people, making probably even less than 5% of Palestine total population. But in 19th century number of Palestinian Christians grew rapidly, in 1914 about 70 thousands Christians lived in Palestine, and they made more than 10% of overall population.
In this case even small numbers of immigrants can make some influence.

artemv
03-14-2019, 03:06 AM
First of all, there is no point in dividing Palestinians in this way, because the majority of populations in Gaza do not descend from actual Gazans, but from refugees which during the Israeli independence war found themselves in the Gaza Strip and came from Jaffa, Ramle, Ashkelon etc.

I wrote that Jaffa, Ramle, Ashkelon and all that area was generally empty at the beginning of the 19th century, with almost no population outside a few cites. Muslim peasant lived mostly on the hill area. The shore plan area was massively settled by immigrants from Egypt during the 19th century (later Jews settled there also, but this is another story). I can post more details about Egyptian villages in the area, about Egyptian suburbs of Jaffa e.t.c, if you do not believe this population was mostly Egyptian.



Bedouins didn't settle in any permanent residence until the late 20th century anywhere in the Middle East, so they contributed very little to any Palestinian gene pool.
First of all Bedouins are part of Palestinian Muslim gene pool.
When I write about Palestinian Muslims, I mean some average from all of Palestinian Arab Muslims, including Bedouin.

Generally Bedouin mostly relied on money they got from racket - they lived on money they could from settled peasants, traders, those going for hajj. Herding was secondary. After reintegration of Palestine back into Ottoman Empire in 1840 it became a problem for them to maintain there traditional way of life and they started to settle down. I do not state that all the clans settled down, the process is ending only now, but they started to settle down at that time.
Soon after that first quarters outside Jerusalem city walls were build - before 1840 that it was impossible to live outside Jerusalem city walls because of security reasons (first time after 1840 locals also were afraid to live outside city walls, as they remembered the past).

Bedouins were not present only in the Negev, as you possibly mean - they were even present to the North of Kinneret lake.



Christian Palestinians are by large almost identical to either Samaritans or Lebanese - and show almost no admixture with North Africans, SSA populations or Southern Middle Easterners, despite the famous Ghassanids.
I never stated that Christian Palestinians have significant admixture from North Africa, Egypt or SSA.



I wouldn't go as far as claiming they are descendants of only Jews and Samaritans, because there were other Levantines in the region (despite Judaism becoming quite popular in the 1st-2nd centuries in the Roman Empire), and once the region converted to Christianity, they would all mix and marry each other.
Quite popular in the 1st-2nd centuries in the Roman Empire means just about 10% of population.
In another post I provided details about strong polytheist presence in Herodian time Palestine, and they even became majority after failed Bar-Kokhba revolt.



But at least in Samaria, we know several important Muslim clans that have converted quite recently to Islam - as late as the 16th century.
And Samaritans also converted to Islam at that time. I wrote that probably Muslims of Samaria and Galilea can trace most of their ancestry to pre-Muslim Palestine.



On a more personal tone, I just happen to hold political views that would naturally embrace this false narrative of Palestinian history (that they do not descend from indigenous populations), so one might say it would be my agenda to agree with your opinions, atermv. However, before my political stand, I'm also honest and try to be as non-biased as I can - and we have to look at what the current up-to-date data provides us with.
If you want to tell me something personally you can always send me a personal message. I always try to stay away from politics or personal matters.

artemv
03-14-2019, 03:26 AM
I have a question about this actually, because I hear a lot of people talking about a large migration of Arabs from throughout the Middle East in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to the Levant coming to work on the Hejaz railway as well as in ports such as Haifa and Jaffa, wanted to hear your opinion on that, is there any data to back this? Also heard that a lot of surnames of Israeli Arabs and Palestinians denote foreign origin (Husseini, Misri and even Zoabi ;-))
Abu Ḥalāf, Abu Dien, Tuhāmi, Bandāri, and Khanūn are family names related to actual Egyptian districts or towns, for example.

artemv
03-14-2019, 03:51 AM
Does anyone know details about the G25 Palestinian samples? When modeling them with modern populations (since we have no ancient samples for many important regions), they do get extremely high Egyptian, which I think is largely due to the high East and North African. I wouldn't read these results literally, but I do think they're indicative of something.

I guess it's also important to remember that modern Egyptians are mostly Levant BA North when modeling with ancient samples...

Only I remembered about Hyksos who migrated to Egypt and likely were the same population or at least were very close to Levant BA North? :)
Seriously, I do not believe that Hyksos indeed changed the Egypt population - we just lack relevant ancient Egypt samples.

P.S. Wrote about mass Egyptian migration to the Levant.

artemv
03-14-2019, 04:36 AM
We don't have Palestinian Christian coordinates but as per Iseid0441's K13 PCA, the centroid of the Pali Christian samples he gathered was directly between Samaritan and Lebanese_Christian. I created a synthetic Palestinian Christian G25 target by using a simple average of the G25 Samaritan and Lebanese_Christian coordinates.

So Palestinian Christians can be modeled as 94% Canaanite + ~6% steppe-related, in other words. But how did a 6% pure "Steppe_EMBA"-like population contribute to the late BA Levant?

I remember it well that when comparing BA Levant to modern Lebanese Christians there were the same additional 6% of steppe ancestry.
In this case, I guess we have two possibilities:
- The source of steppe admixture is the same for both Palestinian and Lebanese Christians.
- The Palestinian_Christian_Synthetic does not represent the Palestinian Christians well enough.



It's also a mistake to assume ALL of the "Egyptian" admixture is from post-Islamic times. Some of it might indeed have arrived long before that-- the Canaanite population of Ashkelon could very well have been just as "Egyptian-shifted" as modern Muslim Palestinians, but this type of admixture never made it to the inland and upland Christian/Jewish populations of the Judean Hills or Galilee. Again we just don't know.
It is a good question if Canaanite population of Ashkelon contributed much ancestry to the Philistine era population of Ashkelon.

KingofPhoenicia001
03-14-2019, 07:33 PM
The Arabization of Levantines is hugely exaggerated by people who don't know much or anything about the Arab world. You can't exchange Palestinians with Saudis or Egyptians. The food and dance(Dabkeh) of Levantines show more interactions with Anatolian Turks and Kurds than with Arabia in the last centuries.

Many don't know that Dabké is a Phoenician-Canaanite dance... and they say there's no continuity :P

Batroun
03-14-2019, 10:16 PM
Many don't know that Dabké is a Phoenician-Canaanite dance... and they say there's no continuity :P

Just one of the many old cultural traditions that have persisted throughout time

FaerieQueene
03-29-2019, 04:07 AM
Never posted because I'm not best at making PCAs using Past3. It was only experimental for me.

I modeled using K13. See ones below, at the time there was only like 10 to 15 samples available.
29101
29102

I tried K15 for my parents using this site http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm, I'm hoping to expand it to more people when I have time.
29103

If someone wants to make a better PCA, I can provide you samples. I was hoping I can show differences between each town because from what I saw there's quite the variation within each town.I can only assume that "Nasir" in your first PCA plot is my father.
I'm not sure if you checked FTDNA. This is what I have. Again I don't know their background but their names could be telling.
29104Nasir ydna E-BY63615 mtdna H13a2c1 is most definitely my father's haplogroups.

K33
06-06-2019, 09:51 PM
Iseid was kind enough to send me the G25 coordinates from his (Palestinian Christian) parents, which I averaged into an Iseid_Parents plot on the PCA. You can see how close it is to the "Palestinian_Christian_Synthetic" component (abbreviated here), which I originally made in MS excel as a strict average between Samaritans and Lebanese Christians. My own position is shown between Abruzzo and South Italian, not too far from the Medieval mixed Crusader-Lebanese individual.

https://i.imgur.com/5xReq3u.jpg


Plausible nMonte models:



"sample": "Test1: Iseid_Parents_Avg",
"fit": 2.4347,
"Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 70.83,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 15,
"IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA": 14.17,
"TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP": 0,

"sample": "Test1: Iseid_Parents_Avg",
"fit": 1.9939,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 91.67,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 4.17,
"IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA": 4.17,
"TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP": 0,

"sample": "Test1: Iseid_Parents_Avg",
"fit": 2.6911,
"Levant_LBN_MA_NE": 95,
"IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA": 5,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 0,
"TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP": 0,

This hints at several admixture events involving the ancestors of Levantine Christians:

Between the Caananite and Roman Periods:
- South European ancestry (Hellenestic/Seleucid?) + Iranic-related ancestry (Achaemaneid? Neo-Assyrian deportations of Medes/Persians?)

Between Roman and Medieval Periods
- Additional South European ancestry (Byzantine/Greek admixture?)

Between Medieval and Modern Periods
- Additional Iranian-related admixture? (-- this one may be an artifact of overfitting, the 1:1 fit with LBN_Medieval is ~2.73%)

EDIT:

should also be noted that in the first scenario, Turkmenistan_IA works just as well as Haji_Firuz_IA. Turkmenistan_IA seems like a recent Iranic migrant to the Near East, he models as ~50% Sintashta, so requires less overall admixture (HajiFiruz_IA is only ~15% Sintashta, or alternatively <10% steppe and lots of Caucasus ancestry).


"sample": "Test1: Iseid_Parents_Avg",
"fit": 2.3524,
"Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 80,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 10.83,
"TKM_IA": 9.17,

"sample": "Test1: Iseid_Parents_Avg",
"fit": 1.9528,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 94.17,
"TKM_IA": 3.33,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 2.5,

Could West Iranic speakers have arrived in Palestine at such an early (~900 BC) date? I think the "later" diluted Iranic ancestry is more likely.

The most intriguing steppe-related sources, which we are missing, are of course the Mittani and the Hittites/Syro-Hittites

Dewsloth
06-06-2019, 10:37 PM
Iseid was kind enough to send me the G25 coordinates from his (Palestinian Christian) parents, which I averaged into an Iseid_Parents plot on the PCA. You can see how close it is to the "Palestinian_Christian_Synthetic" component (abbreviated here), which I originally made in MS excel as a strict average between Samaritans and Lebanese Christians. My own position is shown between Abruzzo and South Italian, not too far from the Medieval mixed Crusader-Lebanese individual.

https://i.imgur.com/5xReq3u.jpg


Plausible nMonte models:



"sample": "Test1: Iseid_Parents_Avg",
"fit": 2.4347,
"Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 70.83,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 15,
"IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA": 14.17,
"TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP": 0,

"sample": "Test1: Iseid_Parents_Avg",
"fit": 1.9939,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 91.67,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 4.17,
"IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA": 4.17,
"TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP": 0,

"sample": "Test1: Iseid_Parents_Avg",
"fit": 2.6911,
"Levant_LBN_MA_NE": 95,
"IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA": 5,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 0,
"TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP": 0,

This hints at several admixture events involving the ancestors of Levantine Christians:

Between the Caananite and Roman Periods:
- South European ancestry (Hellenestic/Seleucid?) + Iranic-related ancestry (Achaemaneid? Neo-Assyrian deportations of Medes/Persians?)

Between Roman and Medieval Periods
- Additional South European ancestry (Byzantine/Greek admixture?)

Between Medieval and Modern Periods
- Additional Iranian-related admixture? (-- this one may be an artifact, the fit without extra Haji Firuz is still 2.7% and no real other alternatives can get the fit below 2%)

EDIT:

should also be noted that in the first scenario, Turkmenistan_IA works just as well as Haji_Firuz_IA. Turkmenistan_IA seems like a recent migrant to the Near East, he's ~50% Sintastha, so requires less admixture (Haji Firuz only ~15% Sintashta).


"sample": "Test1:Iseid_Parents_Avg",
"fit": 2.3524,
"Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 80,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 10.83,
"TKM_IA": 9.17,

Could West Iranic speakers have arrived in Palestine at such an early (~900 BC) date? I think the "later" diluted Iranic ancestry is more likely.

The most intriguing steppe-related source, which we are missing, is of course the Mittani and the Neo-Hittites

I have a similar mix and result :)

1 Custom:AGUser_Dewsloth Italian_Abruzzo ItalyAbruzzo19 Modern; 2.429
2 Custom:AGUser_Dewsloth Italian_Abruzzo_Averaged Averaged 2.65
3 Custom:AGUser_Dewsloth Italian_South_Averaged Averaged 2.661
4 Custom:AGUser_Dewsloth Levant_LBN_MA_Mixed SI-53 2.811

and, conversely,

1 Levant_LBN_MA_Mixed:SI-53 Italian_Abruzzo ItalyAbruzzo19 Modern; 2.472
2 Levant_LBN_MA_Mixed:SI-53 Italian_Abruzzo_Averaged Averaged 2.751
3 Levant_LBN_MA_Mixed:SI-53 Custom AGUser_Dewsloth 2.811
4 Levant_LBN_MA_Mixed:SI-53 Italian_Abruzzo ItalyAbruzzo15 Modern; 2.908
5 Levant_LBN_MA_Mixed:SI-53 Italian_South_Averaged Averaged 2.953

KingofPhoenicia001
07-29-2019, 11:56 PM
Not sure if this has been discussed, but is it possible that the abundance of haplogroup G connects Palestinian Christians with the ancient Philistines? I was thinking because the Philistines are speculated to have been of Aegean origin and G is pretty strong on the Italian Adriatic coast, west Anatolia, and eastern Greece. Possibility?

Agamemnon
07-30-2019, 12:31 AM
Not sure if this has been discussed, but is it possible that the abundance of haplogroup G connects Palestinian Christians with the ancient Philistines? I was thinking because the Philistines are speculated to have been of Aegean origin and G is pretty strong on the Italian Adriatic coast, west Anatolia, and eastern Greece. Possibility?

Rootsi et al. 2012 brought up a similar parallel for M527/L13, a branch of U1:

In the G2a3b-P303 network (Figure 4), there are several region-specific clusters, indicating a considerable history for this SNP. Taken as a collective group, P303-derived chromosomes are the most widespread of all hg G lineages (Supplementary Table S1 and Figure 2b) and clearly display differential geographic partitioning between L497 (Figure 2c) and U1 (xM527) (Figure 2d). Looking still more closely at the distribution of P303 sub-clades, some distinct patterns emerge in the network (Figure 4). The non-clustering paraphyletic, hg G sub-group P303* residuals consist of samples from Near/Middle Eastern, Caucasian and European populations. Its estimated Td of 12 095±3000 years ago suggests considerable antiquity allowing time to accumulate STR diversity and also to disperse relatively widely. The hg G-U1 subclade is characterized by several sub-clusters of haplotypes, including a more diverse cluster mostly represented by Caucasus populations. A more compact cluster of Near/Middle Eastern samples is also resolved in the network. The M527-defined sub-clade is unusual in that it reflects the presence of hg G-U1 that is otherwise rare in Europe. Although M527 frequency (Supplementary Table S1) is relatively low (1–6%), its phylogeographic distribution in regions such as southern Italy, Ukraine and the Levant (Druze and Palestinians) often coincides with areas associated with the Neolithic and post-Neolithic expansions into the Greek Aegean beginning approximately 7000 years ago.41 The expansion time (Td) of M527 is 7100±2300 years ago and is consistent with a Middle to Late Neolithic expansion of M527 in the Aegean. The presence of M527 in Provence, southern Italy and Ukraine may reflect subsequent Greek maritime Iron Age colonization events16 and perhaps, given its appearance among the Druze and Palestinians, even episodes associated with the enigmatic marauding Sea Peoples.42


Roy King (who was one of the authors) reiterated this claim in a more recent paper IIRC. One of the Minoans from Odigitria (I9130) was G2a2b2a-P303 for instance, which is technically ancestral to M527/L13, so I'd say there's a fair chance this might turn out to be a genuine link to Aegean populations.

KingofPhoenicia001
07-30-2019, 12:46 AM
Rootsi et al. 2012 brought up a similar parallel for M527/L13, a branch of U1:

In the G2a3b-P303 network (Figure 4), there are several region-specific clusters, indicating a considerable history for this SNP. Taken as a collective group, P303-derived chromosomes are the most widespread of all hg G lineages (Supplementary Table S1 and Figure 2b) and clearly display differential geographic partitioning between L497 (Figure 2c) and U1 (xM527) (Figure 2d). Looking still more closely at the distribution of P303 sub-clades, some distinct patterns emerge in the network (Figure 4). The non-clustering paraphyletic, hg G sub-group P303* residuals consist of samples from Near/Middle Eastern, Caucasian and European populations. Its estimated Td of 12 095±3000 years ago suggests considerable antiquity allowing time to accumulate STR diversity and also to disperse relatively widely. The hg G-U1 subclade is characterized by several sub-clusters of haplotypes, including a more diverse cluster mostly represented by Caucasus populations. A more compact cluster of Near/Middle Eastern samples is also resolved in the network. The M527-defined sub-clade is unusual in that it reflects the presence of hg G-U1 that is otherwise rare in Europe. Although M527 frequency (Supplementary Table S1) is relatively low (1–6%), its phylogeographic distribution in regions such as southern Italy, Ukraine and the Levant (Druze and Palestinians) often coincides with areas associated with the Neolithic and post-Neolithic expansions into the Greek Aegean beginning approximately 7000 years ago.41 The expansion time (Td) of M527 is 7100±2300 years ago and is consistent with a Middle to Late Neolithic expansion of M527 in the Aegean. The presence of M527 in Provence, southern Italy and Ukraine may reflect subsequent Greek maritime Iron Age colonization events16 and perhaps, given its appearance among the Druze and Palestinians, even episodes associated with the enigmatic marauding Sea Peoples.42


Roy King (who was one of the authors) reiterated this claim in a more recent paper IIRC. One of the Minoans from Odigitria (I9130) was G2a2b2a-P303 for instance, which is technically ancestral to M527/L13, so I'd say there's a fair chance this might turn out to be a genuine link to Aegean populations.

Oh, ok that's very interesting considering it is such a large proportion. However, an Aegean trend is not reflected on in autosomal calculators or does Ydna have nothing to do with that?

Agamemnon
07-30-2019, 01:00 AM
Oh, ok that's very interesting considering it is such a large proportion. However, an Aegean trend is not reflected on in autosomal calculators or does Ydna have nothing to do with that?

It's possible not all the branches of G are of Aegean origin though, most of it easily could have been present since the Pottery Neolithic at the very least. As for the autosomal ramifications of Aegean admixture, it really depends on how we proxy the Canaanite (though really Judean in their case) part of their genome. Going off the recent Philistine results, there certainly was some substructure in Canaan during the LBA. So for example if we use the LBA Canaanites from Ashkelon, then a minimal amount of Aegean admixture is possible, if we are to use the sample from Tel Shadud though things get more complicated. Unlike what the authors in the study claimed, I do not think the Philistines were a genetic dead-end, I think this view is an illusion created by the peculiar circumstances Ashkelon found itself in (one of the sites where the Mycenaeans clearly were a minority living next to a large Canaanite population). If we were to get a similar set from Ashdod for instance, I think the survival of an Aegean component (though diluted) would be more clearly visible.

A more interesting set of sites which might provide immediately relevant data would be the mixed Judean-Philistine sites liked Beit Shemesh and Gezer.

Alanson
11-01-2019, 02:34 PM
I wrote that Jaffa, Ramle, Ashkelon and all that area was generally empty at the beginning of the 19th century, with almost no population outside a few cites. Muslim peasant lived mostly on the hill area. The shore plan area was massively settled by immigrants from Egypt during the 19th century (later Jews settled there also, but this is another story). I can post more details about Egyptian villages in the area, about Egyptian suburbs of Jaffa e.t.c, if you do not believe this population was mostly Egyptian.


First of all Bedouins are part of Palestinian Muslim gene pool.
When I write about Palestinian Muslims, I mean some average from all of Palestinian Arab Muslims, including Bedouin.

....

Arabs from Gaza Strip, including descendants of those who moved there from coastal plane villages in 1947-1948, will be overwhelmingly non-Levantine by origin, tracing maybe 80%-90% of their DNA either to Arab Peninsula or to Egypt. Palestinian Bedouins will have about the same percent of Levantine DNA, but will trace more ancestry to Arab Peninsula and to Sub-Saharan Africa, and less to Egypt.
Muslim Arabs from Judea and muslim descendants from coastal cities like Ramla, Lod, Jaffa and other places in the area will show about 50% non-Levantine admixture, and only Muslims from Samaria and Galilea will trace majority of their ancestry to pre-Muslim population of the region. But even they will have a significant percent of Arabian and Egyptian ancestry - maybe 25%-30%.


I know the post is old but the idea that most of us Palestinian derive our ancestry from outsiders is laughable at best. Here's the G25 results by my friend of Palestinian Muslim and Egyptian Muslim averages:

Egyptians are quite close to Levantines. Using Berbers, the Canaanite samples, Armenia_EBA, Arabs, Steppe and extra African I get:

"distance%=1.1742"

Egyptian

Levant_BA_North,55.4
Mozabite,20
BedouinB,15.8
Dinka,8.8

Palestinians score small, but significant amount of Steppe + more Canaanite and Armenian. Also some Berber probably due to this sample having several Egpytian mixed Palestinians.

"distance%=0.8776"

Palestinian

Levant_BA_North,61.8
BedouinB,13
Armenia_EBA,8
Sintashta_MLBA,7.8
Mozabite,5.2
Dinka,4.2
https://i.ibb.co/z6SJBcs/2019-10-31-10-47-41-vahaduo-github-io-9c3c08eef9b5.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/tzpddNN/2019-11-01-16-16-44-vahaduo-github-io-03035c25ec85.jpg

We Palestinian Muslims are overwhelmingly Levantines genetically, and our average Arabian admixture which is represented by BedouinB people is 15%. Having surnames originated from Egypt like Misri and etc does not mean that those families are purely Egyptians genetically since these Egyptian migrants tend to intermarry with the local women which is true for the Arabs from the peninsula which is why our Y-DNA is more than 38% J1e while the Christians are different. BedouinA peoples are genetically not purely Arabians, and they cluster far more closely to us Levantines and Egyptians than to Saudis and BedouinB who are predominately Arabians genetically. In other words, these Egyptian migrants from the 19th and 20th centuries did not change or alter our genepool, and most of the Gazans trace their ancestry from other regions of Palestine including those from the Galilee, and we're just as native as Jews. And that's that. We have genetic evidence to disprove the notion that Palestinians are alien colonizers from Egypt and Arabia, and it also disproves the notion that western Jews are simply White people practicing Judaism. So please, don't try to bullshit the notion that we have nothing to do with the Levant. Thank you.

Read the whole thread here to know more about the whole thing:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15971-Who-are-the-Palestinian-Arabs-and-how-quot-indigenous-quot-are-they-to-Israel-Palestine&p=522719&viewfull=1#post522719

jonahst
11-01-2019, 05:41 PM
I know the post is old but the idea that most of us Palestinian derive our ancestry from outsiders is laughable at best. Here's the G25 results by my friend of Palestinian Muslim and Egyptian Muslim averages:

https://i.ibb.co/z6SJBcs/2019-10-31-10-47-41-vahaduo-github-io-9c3c08eef9b5.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/tzpddNN/2019-11-01-16-16-44-vahaduo-github-io-03035c25ec85.jpg

We Palestinian Muslims are overwhelmingly Levantines genetically, and our average Arabian admixture which is represented by BedouinB people is 15%. Having surnames originated from Egypt like Misri and etc does not mean that those families are purely Egyptians genetically since these Egyptian migrants tend to intermarry with the local women which is true for the Arabs from the peninsula which is why our Y-DNA is more than 38% J1e while the Christians are different. BedouinA peoples are genetically not purely Arabians, and they cluster far more closely to us Levantines and Egyptians than to Saudis and BedouinB who are predominately Arabians genetically. In other words, these Egyptian migrants from the 19th and 20th centuries did not change or alter our genepool, and most of the Gazans trace their ancestry from other regions of Palestine including those from the Galilee, and we're just as native as Jews. And that's that. We have genetic evidence to disprove the notion that Palestinians are alien colonizers from Egypt and Arabia, and it also disproves the notion that western Jews are simply White people practicing Judaism. So please, don't try to bullshit the notion that we have nothing to do with the Levant. Thank you.

Read the whole thread here to know more about the whole thing:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15971-Who-are-the-Palestinian-Arabs-and-how-quot-indigenous-quot-are-they-to-Israel-Palestine&p=522719&viewfull=1#post522719

There's no doubt that modern Palestinians are largely (50+%) descended from ancient Levantines, but as I mentioned elsewhere, I'm not so sure about these models. The first model isn't terrible, but it seems off due to the low Egyptian in every population, especially Egyptians themselves. The second model, though, is all over the place. There are no Arabian, Egyptian, or East African references, which is why the Palestinian Muslim has the second highest Levantine and high Iberomaurusian. The Christian should be much more Levantine and I don't think the Samaritans should have 6.4% Central European. On the whole, there are way too many European references and not enough Middle Eastern ones.

Alanson
11-01-2019, 06:16 PM
There's no doubt that modern Palestinians are largely (50+%) descended from ancient Levantines, but as I mentioned elsewhere, I'm not so sure about these models. The first model isn't terrible, but it seems off due to the low Egyptian in every population, especially Egyptians themselves. The second model, though, is all over the place. There are no Arabian, Egyptian, or East African references, which is why the Palestinian Muslim has the second highest Levantine and high Iberomaurusian. The Christian should be much more Levantine and I don't think the Samaritans should have 6.4% Central European. On the whole, there are way too many European references and not enough Middle Eastern ones.

Actually, the average Levantine ancestry in Palestinian Muslims is over 60% which my Assyrian friend from the apricity, Aren, did the calculation which is consestent with the 1st model. Yeah, the 2nd model is kinda of a mess due to the spreadsheet only for 2500 to 2000 BCE mainly for Europeans. My bad. On the side note:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18455-New-MyTrueAncestry-feature&p=615929&viewfull=1#post615929

I'm an Israelite genetically :)

John Doe
11-01-2019, 06:22 PM
Actually, the average Levantine ancestry in Palestinian Muslims is over 60% which my Assyrian friend from the apricity, Aren, did the calculation which is consestent with the 1st model. Yeah, the 2nd model is kinda of a mess due to the spreadsheet only for 2500 to 2000 BCE mainly for Europeans. My bad. On the side note:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18455-New-MyTrueAncestry-feature&p=615929&viewfull=1#post615929

I'm an Israelite genetically :)


In the early days of the Zionist movement it was believed by many that most of the Levantine Arabs would eventually convert back to Judaism when the Jewish homeland is reestablished. Not too late ;)

jonahst
11-01-2019, 06:30 PM
Actually, the average Levantine ancestry in Palestinian Muslims is over 60% which my Assyrian friend from the apricity, Aren, did the calculation which is consestent with the 1st model. Yeah, the 2nd model is kinda of a mess due to the spreadsheet only for 2500 to 2000 BCE mainly for Europeans. My bad. On the side note:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18455-New-MyTrueAncestry-feature&p=615929&viewfull=1#post615929

I'm an Israelite genetically :)

You might be over 60%, but I don't know if you can conclude this definitively. It also varies by region. You can make all sorts of models/calculations and yield many different results, including ones that reduce Palestinian Muslim Levantine to 30%, which is obviously inaccurate. Similarly, I can make models that will give modern Jews 60-70% ancient Levantine.

Your MTA results are interesting but not surprising and mostly seem to confirm that you're northern-shifted for Palestinian Muslims. But the website as a whole is riddled with inaccuracies and seems to mostly be a flashy G25 or GEDmatch calculator with ancient references. Don't read into it too much.

Alanson
11-01-2019, 06:37 PM
You might be over 60%, but I don't know if you can conclude this definitively. It also varies by region. You can make all sorts of models/calculations and yield many different results, including ones that reduce Palestinian Muslim Levantine to 30%, which is obviously inaccurate. Similarly, I can make models that will give modern Jews 60-70% ancient Levantine.

Your MTA results are interesting but not surprising and mostly seem to confirm that you're northern-shifted for Palestinian Muslims. But the website as a whole is riddled with inaccuracies and seems to mostly be a flashy G25 or GEDmatch calculator with ancient references. Don't read into it too much.

Hmm, not really. I mean, the range of the Levantine ancestry for the average Palestinian Muslims lie between 55 to 62% which DMXX made similar results in here:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15971-Who-are-the-Palestinian-Arabs-and-how-quot-indigenous-quot-are-they-to-Israel-Palestine&p=522719&viewfull=1#post522719

You can say that at least we're just as Levantine/Israelite genetically as modern Jewish peoples today. I mean, different models can yield different results, sure, but the fit or the distance can give us how accurate these results represent, you know?

This is the model 2 results:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16087-G25-ancient-2500-BCE-2000-BCE-calculator&p=615828&viewfull=1#post615828

jonahst
11-01-2019, 06:44 PM
Hmm, not really. I mean, the range of the Levantine ancestry for the average Palestinian Muslims lie between 55 to 62% which DMXX made similar results in here:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15971-Who-are-the-Palestinian-Arabs-and-how-quot-indigenous-quot-are-they-to-Israel-Palestine&p=522719&viewfull=1#post522719

You can say that at least we're just as Levantine/Israelite genetically as modern Jewish peoples today.

Well 55-62% is in line with what I proposed. DMXX's model shows them to mostly be that much Druze, who are somewhat mixed with Mesopotamians, rather than Samaritan. But either way, models are very malleable so I'd advise not to draw definitive conclusions based on a few models. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about the amount of Levantine, but again we can make all sorts of models that show countless different results.

Alanson
11-01-2019, 06:53 PM
Well 55-62% is in line with what I proposed. DMXX's model shows them to mostly be that much Druze, who are somewhat mixed with Mesopotamians, rather than Samaritan. But either way, models are very malleable so I'd advise not to draw definitive conclusions based on a few models. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about the amount of Levantine, but again we can make all sorts of models that show countless different results.

Sure, but the fit or the distance of the results gives us a hint on how accurate these results and etc. If you read the whole thread, somebody did ask DMXX about the Druze since they carry Mesopotamian/West Asian admixture and here's his analysis on it:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15971-Who-are-the-Palestinian-Arabs-and-how-quot-indigenous-quot-are-they-to-Israel-Palestine&p=523253&viewfull=1#post523253

The Arabian admixture in Palestinians is between 16 to 20% range which is consistent with what my Assyrian calculated in the past:

Egyptians are quite close to Levantines. Using Berbers, the Canaanite samples, Armenia_EBA, Arabs, Steppe and extra African I get:

"distance%=1.1742"

Egyptian

Levant_BA_North,55.4
Mozabite,20
BedouinB,15.8
Dinka,8.8

Palestinians score small, but significant amount of Steppe + more Canaanite and Armenian. Also some Berber probably due to this sample having several Egpytian mixed Palestinians.

"distance%=0.8776"

Palestinian

Levant_BA_North,61.8
BedouinB,13
Armenia_EBA,8
Sintashta_MLBA,7.8
Mozabite,5.2
Dinka,4.2

jonahst
11-01-2019, 07:19 PM
Sure, but the fit or the distance of the results gives us a hint on how accurate these results and etc. If you read the whole thread, somebody did ask DMXX about the Druze since they carry Mesopotamian/West Asian admixture and here's his analysis on it:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15971-Who-are-the-Palestinian-Arabs-and-how-quot-indigenous-quot-are-they-to-Israel-Palestine&p=523253&viewfull=1#post523253

The Arabian admixture in Palestinians is between 16 to 20% range which is consistent with what my Assyrian calculated in the past:

I agree with the Arabian range, but I think the Egyptian is probably higher than in your first model. The fact that modern Egyptians get so much "Levant" shows how close the populations are to begin with and how easy it is for them to be interchangeable. If the Mozabite in the last model is any indication of Egyptian ancestry, it would put Egyptian admixture in Palestinians at around 25%. I'm not saying it's necessarily that high, but you are talking about thousands of years of contact between a very large population (Egypt) and a much smaller population (Palestine) that are in very close proximity. With religious barriers removed (namely Judaism vs. paganism or Christianity), mixing is much more common. Higher levels of Egyptian ancestry don't require the narrative of 19/20th century Egyptian transplants because a lot of this admixture is probably much older and was part of a gradual process of minor or occasional intermixing over hundreds of years.

Alanson
11-01-2019, 07:38 PM
I agree with the Arabian range, but I think the Egyptian is probably higher than in your first model. The fact that modern Egyptians get so much "Levant" shows how close the populations are to begin with and how easy it is for them to be interchangeable. If the Mozabite in the last model is any indication of Egyptian ancestry, it would put Egyptian admixture in Palestinians at around 25%. I'm not saying it's necessarily that high, but you are talking about thousands of years of contact between a very large population (Egypt) and a much smaller population (Palestine) that are in very close proximity. With religious barriers removed (namely Judaism vs. paganism or Christianity), mixing is much more common. Higher levels of Egyptian ancestry don't require the narrative of 19/20th century Egyptian transplants because a lot of this admixture is probably much older and was part of a gradual process of minor or occasional intermixing over hundreds of years.

I actually agree with you on that. I mean, Egypt is very close to the Southern Levant, both geographically and genetically even, so the whole differentiation between Palestinians and Egyptians is often than most exaggerated and etc. Many Palestinians do have Egyptian admixture which is no question about it which is how we got our North African ancestry indirectly from them rather than directly from the Berbers. Yes, I would say around 15 to 20% on average judging from the recent 23andMe results of Palestinians.

K33
11-06-2019, 11:45 PM
You might be over 60%, but I don't know if you can conclude this definitively. It also varies by region. You can make all sorts of models/calculations and yield many different results, including ones that reduce Palestinian Muslim Levantine to 30%, which is obviously inaccurate. Similarly, I can make models that will give modern Jews 60-70% ancient Levantine.

Your MTA results are interesting but not surprising and mostly seem to confirm that you're northern-shifted for Palestinian Muslims. But the website as a whole is riddled with inaccuracies and seems to mostly be a flashy G25 or GEDmatch calculator with ancient references. Don't read into it too much.That's why using historically relevant/proximate samples (rather than much more distal components like Yamnaya_Ukraine) is much better for this sort of thing.

I like using the Levant_LBN_Roman sample because that data point:

a) Either immediately precedes or narrowly postdates the immigration of Jews to Roman Western Europe (in other words, before ethnogensis of Ashkenazim)
b) Precedes the appearance of Islam and whatever demographic changes it might have brought.

The "Egyptian" is almost certainly from post-Islamic Egyptians since the Roman_England_outlier (3DRIF-26) most closely matches modern Egyptian Copts, and this sample provides a substantially inferior fit. Of course, the Roman-era Levant probably featured a cline with "Arabian" and "Northeast African" ancestry increasing as one moved from Lebanon towards Gaza, and so the Roman Lebanon sample might inflate those other components for Palestinian Muslims.

https://i.imgur.com/TYLDMYL.png

The Palestinian Muslim G25 samples come from the Central District of Israel, FWIW, while Iseid's Parents are Palestinian Christians