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View Full Version : My Big-Y700 results from FTDNA, Northern Greek.



dosas
03-05-2019, 08:48 AM
This is the results I got from my Big-Y700. I am Northern Greek (Greek Macedonia) and my paternal ancestry is from Ivaylovgrad, Bulgaria.

I have zero DNA matches and zero info on origins, on the FTDNA block tree.

Anyways, apparently I am :

R-M269 > R-L23 > R-Z2103 > R-L584 > R-PF7580 > R-Y19434 > R-A12332

Other downstream participants, on the FTDNA trees, are:

3 from Russian Federation.
2 from Armenia.
1 from Bulgaria.
1 from Albania.

Any comments or additional info, more than welcome!

Ruderico
03-05-2019, 10:14 AM
Will you be uploading your BAM file into yfull? You're not alone there https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A12332/, although it's interesting that 4 individuals are on the A12332* branch with no TMRCA. Maybe they all belong to different and old subclades that are not too closely related to the others?

rafc
03-05-2019, 10:44 AM
This is the results I got from my Big-Y700. I am Northern Greek (Greek Macedonia) and my paternal ancestry is from Ivaylovgrad, Bulgaria.

I have zero DNA matches and zero info on origins, on the FTDNA block tree.

Anyways, apparently I am :

R-M269 > R-L23 > R-Z2103 > R-L584 > R-PF7580 > R-Y19434 > R-A12332

Other downstream participants, on the FTDNA trees, are:

3 from Russian Federation.
2 from Armenia.
1 from Bulgaria.
1 from Albania.

Any comments or additional info, more than welcome!

Quite an interesting result. Over the last years it has become clear that almost all Z2103 on the Balkans belongs to the very recent BY611 cluster. So where are the Yamnaya/Steppe groups on the Balkans? They did bring a bunch of Indo-european languages afterall. L584 is becoming a nice candidate with samples from Bulgaria, Greece and Albania next to a bunch of Armenians and Iranians. Off course they could also have been younger. A lot of pontic Greeks are L584 and that could just represent Hellenisation of the local population. So it's nice to see it also in a Northern Greek.

dosas
03-05-2019, 11:55 AM
I don't know if I am going to be uploading to YFULL. I see it costs money to do so, and I don't see the benefits. They also have a similar tree now on FTDNA, called Block Tree. They, also, updated their origins bracket with my results, now showing:

Asia Minor 52.13%
Southeast Europe 38.06%
East Europe 6.79%
Other (3 regions) 3.02%

Ruderico
03-05-2019, 12:20 PM
I don't know if I am going to be uploading to YFULL. I see it costs money to do so, and I don't see the benefits. They also have a similar tree now on FTDNA, called Block Tree. They, also, updated their origins bracket with my results, now showing:

Asia Minor 52.13%
Southeast Europe 38.06%
East Europe 6.79%
Other (3 regions) 3.02%

The difference is that yfull has testers besides just FTDNA. It's mostly a joint effort to advance study on our personal clades, which is why I uploaded mine

ADW_1981
03-05-2019, 02:28 PM
Quite an interesting result. Over the last years it has become clear that almost all Z2103 on the Balkans belongs to the very recent BY611 cluster. So where are the Yamnaya/Steppe groups on the Balkans? They did bring a bunch of Indo-european languages afterall. L584 is becoming a nice candidate with samples from Bulgaria, Greece and Albania next to a bunch of Armenians and Iranians. Off course they could also have been younger. A lot of pontic Greeks are L584 and that could just represent Hellenisation of the local population. So it's nice to see it also in a Northern Greek.

Aren't you the same guy who said he had access to the FTDNA database? You didn't mention at the time that the Balkan R1b haplotypes were mostly BY611. Of course so much of the FTDNA data do not exist in projects and are thus inaccessible to the best of my knowledge.

rafc
03-05-2019, 04:21 PM
Aren't you the same guy who said he had access to the FTDNA database? You didn't mention at the time that the Balkan R1b haplotypes were mostly BY611. Of course so much of the FTDNA data do not exist in projects and are thus inaccessible to the best of my knowledge.

I think you mean the Genographic database, and yes, that was me. The Geno test has only a limited number of SNP's, so BY611-members show up in the Genographic database with a terminal SNP CTS1450/CTS9219 which is about as old as L584. As I explained above, over the last years it has become clear that most Balkan members belong to a group downstream of CTS1450 that is a lot more recent. Off course current distributions only say so much. I have no access to the FTDNA database beyond what I can see on public projects (or as admin in projects I administrate).

Kelmendasi
03-05-2019, 05:17 PM
Interesting result. L584 in general seems to have a link with Armenian speakers, and so probably also with groups related to them. It seems to have originated among the Yamnaya. Wanted to point out that the sample from Albania actually isn't an ethnic Albanian, but an Aromanian from Voskopoje.

levantino
03-05-2019, 07:09 PM
I believe that your Armenian root can be much younger. Peter Charanis wrote a paper:"The transfer of population as a policy in the Byzantine empire", with interesting ideas about moving people through Byzantine empire, mostly to resettle abandoned territories on Balkan for strengthening Balkan borders, economic development and pacifying population. You must registered for free reading but I believe it will be very informative for you. In Serbia, we have some lineages with clear Armenian connection J1 PF7257, J1 Z2223 and I2c L596 (if I remember correct)

Well, I tried to post a link but it looks like I?m not allowed to do that. So you just must google it. It's on the Jstor

ADW_1981
03-05-2019, 07:38 PM
I think you mean the Genographic database, and yes, that was me. The Geno test has only a limited number of SNP's, so BY611-members show up in the Genographic database with a terminal SNP CTS1450/CTS9219 which is about as old as L584. As I explained above, over the last years it has become clear that most Balkan members belong to a group downstream of CTS1450 that is a lot more recent. Off course current distributions only say so much. I have no access to the FTDNA database beyond what I can see on public projects (or as admin in projects I administrate).

My mistake, yes it was, thanks for correcting my big oversight.

Kelmendasi
03-05-2019, 07:38 PM
Quite an interesting result. Over the last years it has become clear that almost all Z2103 on the Balkans belongs to the very recent BY611 cluster. So where are the Yamnaya/Steppe groups on the Balkans? They did bring a bunch of Indo-european languages afterall. L584 is becoming a nice candidate with samples from Bulgaria, Greece and Albania next to a bunch of Armenians and Iranians. Off course they could also have been younger. A lot of pontic Greeks are L584 and that could just represent Hellenisation of the local population. So it's nice to see it also in a Northern Greek.
What would you say about when BY611 expanded into the Balkans and with who? To me it seems to be strongly linked to the Palaeo-Balkanic languages, Z2705 clades have strong associations with Albanian speakers. Though many basal BY611 clades do seem to be popping up among western Europeans so it could suggest possible western origin of this group in the Balkans. There is also a branch of CTS9219 in the Balkans other than BY611 which seems to show possible association with Daco-Thracians, R-Y5587, which is found in Bulgaria and Romania mainly. Though what we can say is that BY611 has Yamnaya origins.

rafc
03-05-2019, 09:20 PM
What would you say about when BY611 expanded into the Balkans and with who? To me it seems to be strongly linked to the Palaeo-Balkanic languages, Z2705 clades have strong associations with Albanian speakers. Though many basal BY611 clades do seem to be popping up among western Europeans so it could suggest possible western origin of this group in the Balkans. There is also a branch of CTS9219 in the Balkans other than BY611 which seems to show possible association with Daco-Thracians, R-Y5587, which is found in Bulgaria and Romania mainly. Though what we can say is that BY611 has Yamnaya origins.

I'm more inclined to see BY611, and especially the Balkan clusters, as Slavic.

Kelmendasi
03-05-2019, 11:34 PM
I'm more inclined to see BY611, and especially the Balkan clusters, as Slavic.
Interesting, don't want to hijack the thread, but what has made you come to believing it is Slavic? From what I have seen BY611 in general seems to have no close association with any Slavic speaking group, the Balkan clusters especially. Basal clades of BY611 seem to be showing up in western Europe as I mentioned before, Spain and Italy. Z2705, which could be considered the "Balkan cluster", has strong links to Albanians. It is highest in areas that Albanians inhabit and have had influence in the past. Basal clades of Z2705 mainly seem to pop up in Albania, Greece and Bulgaria. There have been some Z2705>Y32147 found in Ukraine(Odessa) and Romania(Teleorman), but going by the specific locations of these samples and their histories, it is clear that they are of Albanian or Balkan origin.

dosas
03-06-2019, 04:25 AM
V. interesting information. Do continue.

vasil
03-06-2019, 06:37 AM
I don't know if I am going to be uploading to YFULL. I see it costs money to do so, and I don't see the benefits. They also have a similar tree now on FTDNA, called Block Tree. They, also, updated their origins bracket with my results, now showing:

Asia Minor 52.13%
Southeast Europe 38.06%
East Europe 6.79%
Other (3 regions) 3.02%

You do realise you are not native northern greek right?You have a lot of Asia Minor which means a majority of your ancestors migrated to northen greece after the fall of the Ottoman Empire either from the islands or from Asia Minor.

dosas
03-06-2019, 08:48 AM
You do realise you are not native northern greek right?You have a lot of Asia Minor which means a majority of your ancestors migrated to northen greece after the fall of the Ottoman Empire either from the islands or from Asia Minor.

That's not my origins I posted. It's the origins that FTDNA provide for R-A12332. I am Northern Greek and I self-identify as Greek Macedonian/Thracian, because I was born and bred there, regardless of your own narrative or what you think. I realize that my genetics could be 'imported' from elsewhere. This is my K36 autosomal report map, since I see you are interested.

From LM Genetics:

29197

29198

I am the X.

Also, this is my 'match' result from the K36 tool:

29199

rafc
03-06-2019, 10:44 AM
Interesting, don't want to hijack the thread, but what has made you come to believing it is Slavic? From what I have seen BY611 in general seems to have no close association with any Slavic speaking group, the Balkan clusters especially. Basal clades of BY611 seem to be showing up in western Europe as I mentioned before, Spain and Italy. Z2705, which could be considered the "Balkan cluster", has strong links to Albanians. It is highest in areas that Albanians inhabit and have had influence in the past. Basal clades of Z2705 mainly seem to pop up in Albania, Greece and Bulgaria. There have been some Z2705>Y32147 found in Ukraine(Odessa) and Romania(Teleorman), but going by the specific locations of these samples and their histories, it is clear that they are of Albanian or Balkan origin.

I'm not a specialist in this branch, but as far as I see all Balkan samples under BY611 belong to PH970, for which Yfull gives a TMRCA of 1500 years ago. That seems to better fit a Slavic expansion. If BY611 spread Paleo-Balkanic languages wouldn't there be more basal BY611 spread out over the Balkans?

vasil
03-06-2019, 11:04 AM
That's not my origins I posted. It's the origins that FTDNA provide for R-A12332. I am Northern Greek and I self-identify as Greek Macedonian/Thracian, because I was born and bred there, regardless of your own narrative or what you think. I realize that my genetics could be 'imported' from elsewhere. This is my K36 autosomal report map, since I see you are interested.

From LM Genetics:

29197

29198

I am the X.

Also, this is my 'match' result from the K36 tool:

29199

I dont want to start a fight actually i didnt mean you arent greek.Native mainland greeks like Thessalians and Macedonians have a good amount of Bulgarian and Albanian DNA which you obviously dont have and that makes you more greek than them.I meant to say that your ancestors were probably refugees from somewhere else in the recent past.

Kelmendasi
03-06-2019, 01:18 PM
I'm not a specialist in this branch, but as far as I see all Balkan samples under BY611 belong to PH970, for which Yfull gives a TMRCA of 1500 years ago. That seems to better fit a Slavic expansion. If BY611 spread Paleo-Balkanic languages wouldn't there be more basal BY611 spread out over the Balkans?
True the TMRCA of Z2705/PH970 does have a TMRCA of around 1,500ybp between it's carriers, but that time frame is also linked to the emergence of the Albanians during the Medieval period as well as our expansion into certain areas. During that time frame there were other demographic changes in the Balkans. Z2705 lacks basal clades in Slavic speaking countries(non-South Slavs), frequency and diversity. All this seems to suggest that Z2705 has no real link to Slavs as a whole. I looked into what admins from the various projects from Balkan countries have said, and actually it seems that basal clades of Z2705 are spread across the Balkans. They have been found among Albanians, Aromanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Romanians and even Balkan Turks from western Macedonia(likely of Albanian origin though). We also have Albanian samples that are R-CTS9219* as well as R-Z2110* and R-Z2108*. Read this https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36731-R1b-BY611-Z2705-Origins-and-Expansion

BY611(especially Z2705) shows too much of a connection and diversity in the Balkans to say that it arrived with Slavs, who came from an area that BY611 is almost(if not) nonexistent as well as lacking in diversity and basal clades. I think it is certain that BY611 in the Balkans is a pre-Slavic group that arrived sometime during the Bronze Age spreading some Palaeo-Balkanic languages. Other CTS9219(Y5587) or Z2103(L584) groups may have aided in spreading some of the languages but this group seems to be the best candidate. It is carried by Albanians mainly, a group that speaks a branch of a Palaeo-Balkanic language and lacks any other R1b group.

Ownstyler
03-06-2019, 10:59 PM
I'm not a specialist in this branch, but as far as I see all Balkan samples under BY611 belong to PH970, for which Yfull gives a TMRCA of 1500 years ago. That seems to better fit a Slavic expansion. If BY611 spread Paleo-Balkanic languages wouldn't there be more basal BY611 spread out over the Balkans?

Balkan clades very often have TMRCA-s a bit younger than the Slavic ones, because they experienced severe bottlenecks during the migration period. You can see it in Z2705, PH1751, PH2180, Y82533, Y112728, etc. They all started expanding again once the situation became more stable after the 7th century, hence the 1200-1800 TMRCAs, while the Slavic clades have 1600-2200.

Z2705 virtually non-existent in Poland, Belarus and all CE Europe. There is a single Ukrainian sample from Odessa, a city with huge Balkan influx. All the oldest Z2705 branches are found in the Balkans. The other two branches of BY611 split 3300 years ago, and are found exclusively in Italy and Spain. With the current data, within Europe, it doesn't get much less Slavic than this.

dosas
03-09-2019, 07:37 AM
So, after reading various articles, could it be said, with current information that's available, that R-A12332 is of a Proto-Balkan (Thracian/Greek) and/or Hittite and/or Phrygian origin?

Kelmendasi
03-09-2019, 10:29 AM
So, after reading various articles, could it be said, with current information that's available, that R-A12332 is of a Proto-Balkan (Thracian/Greek) and/or Hittite and/or Phrygian origin?
I would link it more with Proto-Armenians and Anatolians. There are various clades of A12332 on the Armenian FTDNA project, from what I can see most carriers are actually Armenians from eastern Anatolia(seems pretty diverse there as well) which is interesting and maybe could suggest a Hittite link but it could still be due to Proto-Armenians. I also saw an Armenian from Bulgaria who was A12332>A12337. Though considering that Hellenic usually is linked to Proto-Armenian it could be possible that some A12332 is from them, Phrygians also could've carried it going by the fact that linguistically they seemed to be closest to Hellenic. As for the Thracians, imo they mainly belonged to R-CTS9219 clades such as BY611 and Y5586.

Trojet
03-09-2019, 07:43 PM
As for the Thracians, imo they mainly belonged to R-CTS9219 clades such as BY611 and Y5586.

Which R-BY611 clade do you think is Thracian? After the latest NGS tests, we can see that R-Z2705 looks Western Balkan. R-Y30192 has a TMRCA of ~2100 ybp between an Italian and the Spanish. The third and final BY611 branch is in Sardinia. Perhaps you meant BY250 instead of BY611?

Trojet
03-09-2019, 08:22 PM
I'm not a specialist in this branch, but as far as I see all Balkan samples under BY611 belong to PH970, for which Yfull gives a TMRCA of 1500 years ago. That seems to better fit a Slavic expansion. If BY611 spread Paleo-Balkanic languages wouldn't there be more basal BY611 spread out over the Balkans?

I really don't think so rafc. Besides the points Kelmendasi and Ownstyler made, R-Z2705 (PH970) is really widespread among Albanians, and among Albanians it peaks precisely in areas with limited to inexistent typical Slavic Y lineages, such as the Mat region for example.

IronHorse
03-09-2019, 08:30 PM
R1b-L584, just because it occurs in Armenians, doesn't mean every Greek L584 is Armenian, by this logic, E-V13 FTDNA project has more Englishmen than Greeks, who don't participate in projects so much.

ever heard of Graeco-Armenian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Armenian) ?

Ownstyler
03-09-2019, 08:38 PM
So, after reading various articles, could it be said, with current information that's available, that R-A12332 is of a Proto-Balkan (Thracian/Greek) and/or Hittite and/or Phrygian origin?

First let's see how YFull classifies your sample. The FTDNA classification seems to be a bit off right now as they are still working on Y-700. If YFull detects your unnamed variants in another A12332 sample, for example the Albanian one, there will be a new TMRCA and the picture could be a lot clearer.


As for the Thracians, imo they mainly belonged to R-CTS9219 clades such as BY611 and Y5586.

I agree on Y5586. BY611, as Trojet mentioned has three branches that show no connection to Thracians, and BY611's itself split from the rest of CTS9219 earlier than the existence of the Thracians, so it seems very unlikely that it was connected to them.

Kelmendasi
03-09-2019, 11:44 PM
Which R-BY611 clade do you think is Thracian? After the latest NGS tests, we can see that R-Z2705 looks Western Balkan. R-Y30192 has a TMRCA of ~2100 ybp between an Italian and the Spanish. The third and final BY611 branch is in Sardinia. Perhaps you meant BY250 instead of BY611?
I was just thinking that since this group has been in the Balkan area for ages, maybe some Thracians would've carried it. I agree with you about Z2705 showing a western origin in the Balkans, I expect it to have been pretty common among Illyric speakers. BY611 in general is pretty western considering where basal clades are found.

Kelmendasi
03-09-2019, 11:47 PM
R1b-L584, just because it occurs in Armenians, doesn't mean every Greek L584 is Armenian, by this logic, E-V13 FTDNA project has more Englishmen than Greeks, who don't participate in projects so much.

ever heard of Graeco-Armenian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Armenian) ?
I did mention that L584 in the Balkans could be from Hellenic speakers or Phrygians, precisely because of the Graeco-Armenian link. It was just that A12332 does seem very common among Armenians and a Balkan Armenian guy did belong to a subclade of A12332.

dosas
03-10-2019, 06:31 AM
I can't send PMs, so I am replying to Ownstyler, here. Thanks for your help, and I'll follow your advice. :thumb:

ADW_1981
03-10-2019, 09:31 PM
Interesting, don't want to hijack the thread, but what has made you come to believing it is Slavic? From what I have seen BY611 in general seems to have no close association with any Slavic speaking group, the Balkan clusters especially. Basal clades of BY611 seem to be showing up in western Europe as I mentioned before, Spain and Italy. Z2705, which could be considered the "Balkan cluster", has strong links to Albanians. It is highest in areas that Albanians inhabit and have had influence in the past. Basal clades of Z2705 mainly seem to pop up in Albania, Greece and Bulgaria. There have been some Z2705>Y32147 found in Ukraine(Odessa) and Romania(Teleorman), but going by the specific locations of these samples and their histories, it is clear that they are of Albanian or Balkan origin.

You're correct (in my opinion). While the age BY611 is young, there is no way the CTS9219 ancestor was living just east of the Baltic, around Belarus, like we can predict for Slavic subclades of I2-CTS10228, R1a-M458, M558...etc. These branches all have young expansion times and are very common from Czech Rep, Belarus, Poland, Ukraine, Serbia, and generally anywhere else where the Slavic family of languages is spoken. The most closely related lineages also seem to be lingering around the area as well, where as the parallel lines to BY611 are centered in western/south-western Europe.

If I had to "guess", I would predict the BY611 ancestor line was living in north Croatia prior to the arrival of Slavic speakers. The young age could be due to selective breeding or some other factor like depopulation.

Kelmendasi
03-10-2019, 09:48 PM
You're correct (in my opinion). While the age BY611 is young, there is no way the CTS9219 ancestor was living just east of the Baltic, around Belarus, like we can predict for Slavic subclades of I2-CTS10228, R1a-M458, M558...etc. These branches all have young expansion times and are very common from Czech Rep, Belarus, Poland, Ukraine, Serbia, and generally anywhere else where the Slavic family of languages is spoken. The most closely related lineages also seem to be lingering around the area as well, where as the parallel lines to BY611 are centered in western/south-western Europe.

If I had to "guess", I would predict the BY611 ancestor line was living in north Croatia prior to the arrival of Slavic speakers. The young age could be due to selective breeding or some other factor like depopulation.
Yh I fully agree. Going by the current data it is safe to say that BY611 was likely centered somewhere between the Italian and Balkan peninsulas, Croatia actually fits this pretty perfectly. The TMRCA of BY611>Z2705 should increase with further testing of individuals that have pretty interesting STR results, maybe it will reach 2,000ybp. We should also remember that many Balkan haplogroups seem to have undergone bottlenecks, attributing to the lower TMRCAs of certain groups.

dosas
04-10-2019, 06:20 PM
As a follow-up to my original post, YFULL is now listing me under R-Y155609 - 3600 ybp. I am in the same subclade with a someone from Chechnya and a TMRCA of 1750.

If anyone knows anything of this subclade, I'd love to hear your input.

Thanks in advance!

IronHorse
04-16-2019, 08:05 AM
As a follow-up to my original post, YFULL is now listing me under R-Y155609 - 3600 ybp. I am in the same subclade with a someone from Chechnya and a TMRCA of 1750.

If anyone knows anything of this subclade, I'd love to hear your input.

Thanks in advance!

Cool, but their calculation is wrong here, since the Chechen guy has zero snp's, so the tmrca=(60+3444)/2 = 1752 .. this is going to change in the future, I expect it to be older.

dosas
04-17-2019, 08:22 AM
Cool, but their calculation is wrong here, since the Chechen guy has zero snp's, so the tmrca=(60+3444)/2 = 1752 .. this is going to change in the future, I expect it to be older.

So, in layman's terms, the Y155609 classification is wrong?

Kelmendasi
09-08-2019, 07:59 PM
The TMRCA for R-Y155609 has increased from 1,750ybp to 3,500ybp, a pretty significant increase. This would mean that the common ancestor lived some time during the Middle Bronze Age. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y155609/

Johane Derite
09-12-2019, 09:57 AM
I am not as familiar with Z2103, but from a quick glance at yfull Armenia seems to be most represented with 41 samples.

Does Z2103 suggest an origin around Armenia or is this a sampling bias?

rafc
09-12-2019, 11:38 AM
Taking into account that lot's of Yamnaya (i.e. around Samara) ancient DNA belonged to Z2103 I would say an origin on the Steppe is more likely.

Johane Derite
09-12-2019, 11:55 AM
Yes i know, but there seem to be some branches in saudi arabia, kuwait, etc, which points to it being around armenia before the steppe. But i dont know enough about this clade if there is a better exlplanation I am interested

rafc
09-12-2019, 07:08 PM
Z2103 has been found as early as 3300BC in Samara, so it seems to me much more likely that the movement was from there to Eastern Anatolia. One possibility might be the speakers of Anatolian languages, but they are generally placed more westernly. On the other hand Armenian itself is offcourse an Indo-european language, and is thought to have entered Eastern Anatolia at a late time. Where the Armenian speakers lived before the Iron age is unkown (or at least there is no concensus on the subject).
Armenian is thought to be close to Greek and/or Iranian. Both could also just be the result of borrowing. I think Iranian languages/peoples are more associated with R1a, which seems scarce in Armenians. Z2103 on the other hand is found in Greeks (and on the Balkan), so it might have been a marker in common ancestors of Armenians, Greeks and Paleo-Balkan people. The smaller nephew of Z2203, PF7562 is quite comparable. Some branches seem more Armenian, while others seem more Balkan like, with Albanians in almost every different branch (while in Z2103 they almost exclusively belong to one recent branch). This seems to suggest PF6562 was also involved in the spread of Armenian, Greek and the Paleo-Balkan languages.

Johane Derite
09-12-2019, 07:44 PM
Z2103 has been found as early as 3300BC in Samara, so it seems to me much more likely that the movement was from there to Eastern Anatolia. One possibility might be the speakers of Anatolian languages, but they are generally placed more westernly. On the other hand Armenian itself is offcourse an Indo-european language, and is thought to have entered Eastern Anatolia at a late time. Where the Armenian speakers lived before the Iron age is unkown (or at least there is no concensus on the subject).
Armenian is thought to be close to Greek and/or Iranian. Both could also just be the result of borrowing. I think Iranian languages/peoples are more associated with R1a, which seems scarce in Armenians. Z2103 on the other hand is found in Greeks (and on the Balkan), so it might have been a marker in common ancestors of Armenians, Greeks and Paleo-Balkan people. The smaller nephew of Z2203, PF7562 is quite comparable. Some branches seem more Armenian, while others seem more Balkan like, with Albanians in almost every different branch (while in Z2103 they almost exclusively belong to one recent branch). This seems to suggest PF6562 was also involved in the spread of Armenian, Greek and the Paleo-Balkan languages.

If Z2103 is most probably from the steppe, then they must have entered Armenia quite early on for there to be as many old clades of Z2103 showing up as there currently are, correct? Z2013 is not negligible in Iranians.

"Another area into which an Indo-European language seems to have expanded in the third millennium BC was southern Caucasia. Archaeological evidence is clear that after 2500 BC nomadic pastoralism became prevalent here.

Eventually most of the Kura-Araxes settlements were abandoned, and those that remained through the Trialeti culture were relatively small. If PIE did not evolve in the Kura-Araxes culture, and we have good reason to think that it did not, it may have been with the arrival of nomadism in the third quarter of the third millennium BC that an Indo-European language first came to south Caucasia. Where the pastoralists may have come from, or whether most of them were simply Kura-Araxes villagers who had become pastoralists, is unclear.

Those pastoralists who did not have local roots may have come from north of the Caucasus, but it is also possible that they came from the southeast. Some specialists have argued, that is, that pastoralists from northwestern Iran began filtering into southern Caucasia in the third millennium BC. We know only that in the middle of the second millennium BC Indo-Iranian was spoken in or near to southern Caucasia"

- Militarism and the Indo-Europeanizing of Europe, Pg 21, Robert Drews.


Whether Z2103 is from the north (steppe) or southeast, I think it must be part of this group that invaded South Caucausia in 2500 BC. This is because of the Paleo-Balkan connection that you reffered to, and that Greeks seem to have come to the Aegean from that South Caucasia region around 2000-1600 BC.

rafc
09-12-2019, 08:52 PM
If Z2103 is most probably from the steppe, then they must have entered Armenia quite early on for there to be as many old clades of Z2103 showing up as there currently are, correct? Z2013 is not negligible in Iranians.

I think a later migration by a group consisting of different branches of Z2103 could show the same pattern. On the other hand the recent South Asian paper showed that 3 Afanasievo samples were Z2108, the 'least Armenian' branch of Z2103. Z2108 also has some more European brances, so maybe it's less Armenian because the other Z2103 branches left early.



"Another area into which an Indo-European language seems to have expanded in the third millennium BC was southern Caucasia. Archaeological evidence is clear that after 2500 BC nomadic pastoralism became prevalent here.

Eventually most of the Kura-Araxes settlements were abandoned, and those that remained through the Trialeti culture were relatively small. If PIE did not evolve in the Kura-Araxes culture, and we have good reason to think that it did not, it may have been with the arrival of nomadism in the third quarter of the third millennium BC that an Indo-European language first came to south Caucasia. Where the pastoralists may have come from, or whether most of them were simply Kura-Araxes villagers who had become pastoralists, is unclear.

Those pastoralists who did not have local roots may have come from north of the Caucasus, but it is also possible that they came from the southeast. Some specialists have argued, that is, that pastoralists from northwestern Iran began filtering into southern Caucasia in the third millennium BC. We know only that in the middle of the second millennium BC Indo-Iranian was spoken in or near to southern Caucasia"

- Militarism and the Indo-Europeanizing of Europe, Pg 21, Robert Drews.


Whether Z2103 is from the north (steppe) or southeast, I think it must be part of this group that invaded South Caucausia in 2500 BC. This is because of the Paleo-Balkan connection that you reffered to, and that Greeks seem to have come to the Aegean from that South Caucasia region around 2000-1600 BC.

I have read a lot of contradictory theories on where the Greeks (and Paleo Balkans) might have come from. The south Caucasian region doesn't seem unreasonable, but there are other candidates. Many specialists believe that the Indo-Iranian languages originated in the so called Sintashta culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture). If Greek and/or Armenian is indeed closer to the Indo-Iranian languages than to other IE-languages their ancestors must have lived in the neighbourhood of the Sintashta, that why if I recall correctly amongst others David Anthony has pointed to the Catacomb culture as the homeland of Greeks and Armenians.

rafc
09-13-2019, 07:00 AM
Maybe an additional point: for V13, the most numerous clade in the Balkans (and Greece, depending on the definition of clade) some people have argued that it was picked up by IE guys and brought along to Euope. Although those theories mainly concern Western European IE groups. Others believe V13 is native to the Balkans since its ancestor L618 was found there in the Cardial ware culture. Most of V13 belongs to CTS5856 wich obviously had a great expansion in a few generations. Directly beneath CTS5856 is BY3880, which contains the large majority of CTS5856. CTS5856 has two other subbranches besides BY3880: S3003 and Z1663. The former is only 2000 years old and appears only in Northeastern Europe. The latter is more Greek/mediterrenean than Balkan like. It's very present in Pontic Greeks who lived not far from the Caucasus, but common sense would dictate they migrated there from the coast of Asia minor in the Iron age. Apart from these 3 clades there is one lone CTS5856* sample, this guy comes from Ossetia of all places. He is part of a cluster that is spread in the two main Ossetian language groups, suggesting a long presence in the region. This seems to leave open a possibility that V13 was picked up near the Caucasud by Greek/Paleo-Balkan nomads.
BTW, Yfull also lists a sample from the Behar study as CTS5856*, this sample was described as a Turkish Jew, I have not verified that this sample is really negative for the three subgroups of CTS5856 but I assume Yfull know what they are doing.

If CTS5856 was really picked up near the Caucasus, this would imply the same for it's cousin, PH1246, which is also present in the Balkans and Greece. Based on it's current results I would not say this is very likely, but not impossible either. I think the L283 specialist also believe it was picked up somewhere near the Caucasus.

lgmayka
09-13-2019, 02:33 PM
Most of V13 belongs to CTS5856 wich obviously had a great expansion in a few generations. Directly beneath CTS5856 is BY3880, which contains the large majority of CTS5856. CTS5856 has two other subbranches besides BY3880: S3003 and Z1663. The former is only 2000 years old and appears only in Northeastern Europe. The latter is more Greek/mediterrenean than Balkan like.
You omit
- E-BY6550 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-BY6550/), a direct subclade of E-V13 found in men of German and Scottish ancestry, with a TMRCA of 3000 years
- E-PF6784 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-PF6784/), a direct subclade of E-Z16663 found in Poland, Slovakia, and Sardinia as well as Turkey, with a TMRCA of 3300 years.

Kelmendasi
09-13-2019, 03:35 PM
Maybe an additional point: for V13, the most numerous clade in the Balkans (and Greece, depending on the definition of clade) some people have argued that it was picked up by IE guys and brought along to Euope. Although those theories mainly concern Western European IE groups. Others believe V13 is native to the Balkans since its ancestor L618 was found there in the Cardial ware culture. Most of V13 belongs to CTS5856 wich obviously had a great expansion in a few generations. Directly beneath CTS5856 is BY3880, which contains the large majority of CTS5856. CTS5856 has two other subbranches besides BY3880: S3003 and Z1663. The former is only 2000 years old and appears only in Northeastern Europe. The latter is more Greek/mediterrenean than Balkan like. It's very present in Pontic Greeks who lived not far from the Caucasus, but common sense would dictate they migrated there from the coast of Asia minor in the Iron age. Apart from these 3 clades there is one lone CTS5856* sample, this guy comes from Ossetia of all places. He is part of a cluster that is spread in the two main Ossetian language groups, suggesting a long presence in the region. This seems to leave open a possibility that V13 was picked up near the Caucasud by Greek/Paleo-Balkan nomads.
BTW, Yfull also lists a sample from the Behar study as CTS5856*, this sample was described as a Turkish Jew, I have not verified that this sample is really negative for the three subgroups of CTS5856 but I assume Yfull know what they are doing.

If CTS5856 was really picked up near the Caucasus, this would imply the same for it's cousin, PH1246, which is also present in the Balkans and Greece. Based on it's current results I would not say this is very likely, but not impossible either. I think the L283 specialist also believe it was picked up somewhere near the Caucasus.
I personally believe that the CTS1273 in the Balkans still is mainly from the IE expansions into the region from the Carpathians or western steppe area. Though the origin of CTS1273 itself may be in the Balkans, but I do know others have argued other areas like Central Europe. There is also a potential CTS1273* from Albania (Diber-Librazhd area to be more precise, the sample is incidentally my maternal uncle), he is negative for S3003 and Z16663 however BY3880 wasn't included in the SNP pack and so we don't know if he is negative for it. There is also a E-BY3880* sample from Jegunovce, Macedonia, iirc.

I doubt that the Greeks or Paleo-Balkan groups picked up CTS1273 in the Caucasus, there doesn't seem to be any E-V13 clades in the Balkans which share ancient matches with the Caucasus or the neighbouring areas. Also I don't think the Greeks or Paleo-Balkan nomads ever went around the Caucasus. Based on all evidence so far I think that a Caucasian expansion is unlikely. I'm pretty sure J-L283 experts just believe that L283 expanded from the steppe-Caucasus area with IE groups.

rafc
09-13-2019, 03:49 PM
You omit
- E-BY6550 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-BY6550/), a direct subclade of E-V13 found in men of German and Scottish ancestry, with a TMRCA of 3000 years
- E-PF6784 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-PF6784/), a direct subclade of E-Z16663 found in Poland, Slovakia, and Sardinia as well as Turkey, with a TMRCA of 3300 years.

It was not my goal to describe the whole Yfull tree for V13. BY6550 is very rare. PF6784 is the branch containing Pontic Greeks, amongst others.

dosas
11-17-2019, 08:25 AM
As a follow up to my OP, I've recently discovered some ecclesiastical historical accounts from the Patriarchate that pinpoint the place of origin of my paternal village's folks (the people of Ortakoy) in Epirus and Western Macedonia, around Prespes Lake, and refer to them as Arvanite builders ('Αρβανιται και Αρβανιτοχώρι'). My dad also gets Albanian matches on 23andme around Proger and Devoll who recognize one of his family's last names.

I don't know how accurate all this is since it's an old historical event (16th-17th century), but there's that. My clade might be of Arvanite origin.

dosas
06-04-2020, 07:14 PM
As a final (hopefully?) follow-up to my thread, I finally managed to track down the original last name of my grandfather (before it was changed to the current one) and I found it to be exclusively Karagouni in its origin (a Hellenophone sub-branch of Aromanians) centred around Thessaly/Western Macedonia, which also coincides with one of the origin stories of Ortakoy/Ivaylovgrad in Thrace.

It's been an exhausting one year of research, but I think I can finally put a lid on this one as I am as certain as I will ever be, I think.

So, R-Y155609 is a clade of Aromanian origin, of the Karagouni variety.

eastara
06-06-2020, 01:39 AM
There is one Bulgarian with paternal origin from Macedonia, who is strongly predicted L584+, he is proven by now Z2103+, CTS7822-. However, he has no close STR matches, it is possible L584 had old presence in the Western Balkans, however could not be proven if there since the Bronze or brought later by the Byzantines. We should mention the exiled Paulicians and even the Samuil dynasty is thought to be of Armenian origin.

dosas
06-07-2020, 05:11 AM
There is one Bulgarian with paternal origin from Macedonia, who is strongly predicted L584+, he is proven by now Z2103+, CTS7822-. However, he has no close STR matches, it is possible L584 had old presence in the Western Balkans, however could not be proven if there since the Bronze or brought later by the Byzantines. We should mention the exiled Paulicians and even the Samuil dynasty is thought to be of Armenian origin.

I am doing my homework on the Karagouni people of Thessaly, and the opinions about their origins seem conflicted in the local academia. The most concrete narratives seem to be the following:

a) They are a local Thessalian population of ancient Greek origins. The proponents of this theory focus on their Hellenophony and on the fact that the rest of the Aromanians refer to them as 'Greci', among other ethnography factors.

b) They are a sub-branch of Thessalian/Macedonian Aromanians (like I mentioned in the previous post), who, having no animals or farms of their own, were moved around by the Ottomans for their manual labour.

c) They are Hellenophone Arvanites/Arvanitovlachs from Epirus who were moved to Thessaly in the 14th century to work the land.

d) They are related to the Sarakatsani-Karachani, as their non-nomadic/urban-farmer manual labourer cousins. Maybe this is another connection to Bulgaria (my father matches Sarakatsani on 23ame with Eastern Romelian origins)?

One thing that historians and ethnographers seem to agree on is that their Hellenophony is very old, going back at least to the 14th century, and that in Thessaly, they are included in the celebrations/festivals of the wider Vlach/Aromanian community.

I haven't found anything in relation to Armenians.

Hope it helps.

eastara
06-08-2020, 01:48 AM
Yes, it is possible your ancestor was Aromanian, just mentioning the way L584 could have come to the Balkans. Most Balkanians can't get back in their pedigree more than 200-300 years with certainty, the rest are speculations. It is historically documented, though, that around 200000 Paulicians from Eastern Anatolia and Syria were exiled to Thrace in 9th century. Thrace at the time included not only the current region, but also Macedonia, possibly Epyrus. They even formed something like independent state around Plovdiv. The Samuil's revolt in 10th century used them as allies, at least Samuil's wife was coming from a Paulician family. The ferocity of the conflict between Basil II and Samuil could be on a personal level as both were Armenian. Basil's father placed Samuil's as a comit in Macedonia, and his son betrayed them.
Most Paulicians were Hellenises and Slavilised, however there were a few Paulician villages in Thrace, Bulgaria, which continued to speak Armenian till 19th c. These Armenians were different to those living in all bigger cites along the Ottoman empire, who formed tight communities, which never mixed even with the other Christians till modern times. Most of the remaining Paulicians in Bulgaria were allowed by the Ottomans to convert to Catholicism, as they did not wish to go back to their old enemy, the Greek Orthodox church.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulicianism

The power of the Paulicians was broken. Meanwhile, other Paulicians, sectarians but not rebels, lived in communities throughout the Byzantine Empire. Constantine V had already transferred large numbers of them to Thrace.[1] According to Theophanes, part of the Paulicians of Armenia were moved to Thrace, in 747, to strengthen the Bulgarian frontier with a reliable population.[21] By 872, the emperor Basil I conquered their strongholds in Asia Minor (including Tephrike) and killed their leader, and the survivors fled elsewhere in the Empire.[22] One group went to the East to the Byzantine-Arab border - in Armenia, where in the 10th century the Tondrakian sect emerged.[9]
Others were transferred to the Western frontier of the empire. In 885, Byzantine general Nikephoros Phokas the Elder had a military detachment of Paulicians serving in Southern Italy.[9][22] In 970, some 200,000 Paulicians on Byzantine territory were transferred by the emperor John Tzimisces to Philippopolis in Theme of Thrace and, as a reward for their promise to keep back "the Scythians" (in fact Bulgarians), the emperor granted them religious freedom. This was the beginning of a revival of the sect in the West, however the policy of transfer besides limited economical and military benefits for the empire's Western frontier was disastrous to the empire. Not only Paulicians did not assimilate among the natives, but successfully continued the conversion of natives to their heresy. According to Anna Komnene, by the end of 11th century, Philippopolis and its surroundings were entirely inhabited by heretics and they were joined by new groups of Armenians

dosas
06-08-2020, 05:17 AM
snip

First of all, thank you for your contribution to my thread, it is very interesting.

However, the historical source you mention about the Armenians seems unlikely in my case, and in the case of Ivaylovgrad, in general. Especially when these Armenian communities remained largely unmixed and cut off from the main Ottoman religious institutions up to the 19th century. Also, your text mentions Plovdiv, which is literally on the other side of the country (both Eastern Romelia and Bulgaria). Ortakoy's history seems intertwined with that of Adrianopolis/Edirne.

Perhaps, it is my fault for not mentioning my research process, which I am going to do now, so you, ladies and gents, can pick holes in it and tell me where I went wrong.


According to a publication by the Ethnographic Museum of Thrace (ISBN 978-960-87736-3-9) (google translated):

"According to Ortakinos Constantinos Athanasios Makridis (or Ouzounoglou as it was then called), his ancestors were Epirote builders and quarries where they were transferred there for the construction of the mosque of Selim II of Adrianople in the 16th century. On the contrary, the lawyer Stodlas believed that the Ortakinoι originated from Velestino or Trikala. In 1675 the village numbered about 150 families, all Greek ..."

According to the histοrian Archbishop Meletios the 2nd of Athens (translation is mine), Ortakoy and Lytitsa are Arvanite-villages (κοινώς Αρβανιτοχώρια) and are populated by villagers of Arvanite ancestry (φέρουσαι το επώνυμον Αρβανίται).

https://i.ibb.co/37Gmqfb/96.jpg

https://books.google.gr/books?id=10PbqTSdvakC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=%CE%BC%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%AD%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%8 2+%CE%B8%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AC&source=bl&ots=Luf_E2z6J-&sig=ACfU3U1ZVlBJvSwrW13QNIGtz6zj2xPklA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi2k6bWtvHpAhWN_qQKHfe8BuoQ6AEwAHoECAYQA Q#v=onepage&q=%CE%BC%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%AD%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82 %20%CE%B8%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AC&f=false

Fortress Lytitsa seems to have a really old history as a Byzantine outpost and then Bulgarian?

http://visit.guide-bulgaria.com/a/114/lytitsa_fortress.htm


Now, for my father's last name. He remembers it being originally "Pourdalas" which in Greco-Vlach slang means "Scaredy person, one who gets frightened easily". After tracking down people on Facebook and talking to a couple of uni. professors who focus on Aromanian and Arvanite ethnography, I've learned that it originates officially as a Karagouni last name.

In Forebears it centers around Thessaly:

https://i.ibb.co/HTd7WqV/screencapture-forebears-io-surnames-pourdalas-1591592437801.png

In the Greek version of Forebears:

https://i.ibb.co/GQk0rSP/screencapture-apps-vrisko-gr-apo-pou-krataei-i-skoufia-sou-ce-a0-ce-bf-cf-85-cf-81-ce-b4-ce-b1-ce-bb-ce-ac-cf-82-1591592544272.png


There's just too many arrows pointing at Thessaly to be a coincidence.

Finally, here are my father's G25 data:


,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
dosasdad_scaled,0.118376,0.136081,0.018102,-0.001938,0.025851,-0.012829,-0.00094,0.009461,-0.008999,0.011663,-0.001949,0.002398,-0.00669,0.015551,-0.02158,-0.015778,-0.008866,0.007855,0.013073,-0.016508,-0.007487,0.003833,0.00493,-0.010001,-0.001916

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
dosasdad,0.0104,0.0134,0.0048,-0.0006,0.0084,-0.0046,-0.0004,0.0041,-0.0044,0.0064,-0.0012,0.0016,-0.0045,0.0113,-0.0159,-0.0119,-0.0068,0.0062,0.0104,-0.0132,-0.006,0.0031,0.004,-0.0083,-0.0016


His GEDMATCH # is WM7319501.

Autosomally, I don't think you can make a case for Armenian (zero Armenian matches), rather he seems to be a bit Gagauz admix'ed, I don't think it's from the paternal line, because of his last name and because there is no verbal tradition of any other language (like Bulgarian or Turkish) being spoken by the family or the residents of Ortakoy (another argument for their Arvanite/Aromanian origins).

That's all I have at the moment, as well as extensive dialogues on Facebook and in emails which I can not publish I am afraid, please do feel free to criticise and point errors in my line of thinking.

Thanks again.