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View Full Version : R1b haplotypes amongst Alpine Linguistic Groups.



jeanL
12-03-2013, 04:13 AM
The following information comes from File-S1 of the following study: Demographic Histories, Isolation and Social Factors as Determinants of the Genetic Structure of Alpine Linguistic Groups (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0081704)

Here is a map(Figure-1) with the populations studied:

993

Luserna Cimbrians-LUS(German Speaking) (n=25)

R1b-M269+ 23/25 or 92%

994

Non-Valley-NON(Italian Speaking) (n=48)

R1b-M269+ 26/48 or 54.16%

995

Primiero valley-PRI(Italian Speaking) (n=41)

R1b-M269+ 12/41 or 29.26%

996

Sappada-SAP(German Speaking) (n=38)

R1b-M269+ 7/38 or 18.42%

997

jeanL
12-03-2013, 04:43 AM
Sauris-SAU(German Speaking) (n=29)

R1b-M269+ 11/29 or 37.93%

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Sauris_zpsdfe53e1d.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Sauris_zpsdfe53e1d.jpg.html)

Sole valley-SOL(Italian Speaking) (n=65)

R1b-M269+ 33/65 or 50.77%

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Solevalley_zpsd37bc2d8.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Solevalley_zpsd37bc2d8.jpg.html)

Timau-TIM(German Speaking) (n=24)

R1b-M269+ 0/24 or 0%

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Timau_zpsc1fd93c6.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Timau_zpsc1fd93c6.jpg.html)

jeanL
12-03-2013, 05:02 AM
SNP tested above:

R1b-M269*==>R1b-M269(xR1b-S167)

R1b-S167*==>R1b-S167(xR1b-S127)

R1b-S127*==>R1b-S127(xR1b-S116,R1b-S21)

R1b-S116*==>R1b-S116(xR1b-S28,R1b-S145)

SNPs equivalencies:

R1b-S167==R1b-L51

R1b-S127==R1b-L11

R1b-S116==R1b-P312

R1b-S21==R1b-U106

R1b-S28==R1b-U152

R1b-S145-R1b-L21

R1b-S138==R1b-L2

Rathna
12-03-2013, 12:01 PM
Actually we did know similar studies about this argument and I have written a lot about this.
Astonishing is the case of Luserna, peopled by a "Cimbrian " people, but previous investigations demonstrated that they have nothing to do with ancient Cimbri, and the presence of 21 R-M269* out of 25 samples demonstrates:
1) it is one only haplotype of R-L23* (probably Z2105 of course)
2) it is very likely that he belongs to the ancient population and not to the people speaking a German language (as I demonstrated it is the case of the most part of these populations, and German haplotypes should be searched elsewhere, where there is a presence of R-M17 for instance or other haplogroups most diffused amongst Germans than Latins)

greystones22
12-03-2013, 12:39 PM
Very pleased to see this paper. Certainly an interesting population(s) to study.

Rathna
12-03-2013, 12:58 PM
No haplotype like this on YHRD but these are the closest ones:
14 13 30 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 12 7 >>
1 of 243 Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 832 Sverdlovsk Region, Russian Federation [Russian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Asia
1 of 200 Novi Sad, Serbia [Slovakian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 591 Wroclaw, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 623 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 382 Ravenna, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 201 Macedonia [Macedonian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe

14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 2 >>
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 495 Warsaw, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 12 1 >>
1 of 760 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
14 13 30 25 11 13 13 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 12 1 >>
1 of 623 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 1 >>
1 of 495 Warsaw, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe

and of course a German origin can not be excluded. Difficult to say which was the oldest one, but we'll answer also this next.

Rathna
12-03-2013, 01:40 PM
26VN 16 13 25 31 14 13 16 18 13 10 13 22 11 12 14 10 21 R1b-M269*
27VN 16 14 25 30 15 15 10 15 14 10 10 23 11 12 14 11 20 R1b-M269*
72VN 15 13 25 29 16 14 12 17 12 11 13 23 13 13 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
73VN 15 13 24 29 16 14 12 16 12 11 13 23 13 13 15 12 18 R1b-M269*
21Rov 16 13 25 29 18 14 11 14 12 11 12 23 13 12 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
52Rov 15 13 23 30 20 15 11 14 13 12 12 23 13 12 15 13 18 R1b-M269*
60Rov 15 14 24 30 17 14 13 14 12 10 12 25 14 12 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
VF-28 16 13 23 29 17 14 11 14 13 10 11 23 13 12 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
22Mo 16 13 24 29 17 14 11 16 13 11 13 23 13 12 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
VF-41 15 13 24 30 17 14 11 14 12 11 13 23 13 13 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
VF-45 15 12 22 28 15 15 14 14 14 10 11 20 11 12 16 10 21 R1b-M269*
VF-92 15 13 24 29 17 14 11 14 12 11 13 23 13 13 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
VF-96 16 13 24 29 17 14 11 14 13 11 13 23 13 11 15 13 19 R1b-M269*
VF-97 16 13 23 29 17 14 11 14 13 11 12 23 13 12 15 12 20 R1b-M269*
VF-98 16 13 24 29 17 14 11 14 13 11 13 23 13 13 15 13 19 R1b-M269*
29Giu 15 14 24 31 16 14 11 14 12 10 12 23 13 13 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
39Giu 15 13 24 29 17 14 15 15 12 10 12 23 13 13 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
40Giu 15 13 24 29 16 14 15 15 12 10 12 23 13 14 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
1Lu 16 13 25 30 16 14 11 14 12 11 12 23 13 12 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
28FP 15 13 23 28 18 14 11 16 13 11 12 23 13 12 14 12 19 R1b-M269*
31FP 15 13 23 28 17 14 11 16 13 11 12 23 13 12 14 12 19 R1b-M269*

Others are the R-M269 present in these Italian places, even though not all R-L23.

Rathna
12-03-2013, 02:06 PM
26VN 16 13 25 31 14 13 16 18 13 10 13 22 11 12 14 10 21 R1b-M269*
27VN 16 14 25 30 15 15 10 15 14 10 10 23 11 12 14 11 20 R1b-M269*
72VN 15 13 25 29 16 14 12 17 12 11 13 23 13 13 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
73VN 15 13 24 29 16 14 12 16 12 11 13 23 13 13 15 12 18 R1b-M269*
21Rov 16 13 25 29 18 14 11 14 12 11 12 23 13 12 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
52Rov 15 13 23 30 20 15 11 14 13 12 12 23 13 12 15 13 18 R1b-M269*
60Rov 15 14 24 30 17 14 13 14 12 10 12 25 14 12 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
VF-28 16 13 23 29 17 14 11 14 13 10 11 23 13 12 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
22Mo 16 13 24 29 17 14 11 16 13 11 13 23 13 12 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
VF-41 15 13 24 30 17 14 11 14 12 11 13 23 13 13 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
VF-45 15 12 22 28 15 15 14 14 14 10 11 20 11 12 16 10 21 R1b-M269*
VF-92 15 13 24 29 17 14 11 14 12 11 13 23 13 13 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
VF-96 16 13 24 29 17 14 11 14 13 11 13 23 13 11 15 13 19 R1b-M269*
VF-97 16 13 23 29 17 14 11 14 13 11 12 23 13 12 15 12 20 R1b-M269*
VF-98 16 13 24 29 17 14 11 14 13 11 13 23 13 13 15 13 19 R1b-M269*
29Giu 15 14 24 31 16 14 11 14 12 10 12 23 13 13 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
39Giu 15 13 24 29 17 14 15 15 12 10 12 23 13 13 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
40Giu 15 13 24 29 16 14 15 15 12 10 12 23 13 14 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
1Lu 16 13 25 30 16 14 11 14 12 11 12 23 13 12 15 12 19 R1b-M269*
28FP 15 13 23 28 18 14 11 16 13 11 12 23 13 12 14 12 19 R1b-M269*
31FP 15 13 23 28 17 14 11 16 13 11 12 23 13 12 14 12 19 R1b-M269*

Others are the R-M269 present in these Italian places, even though not all R-L23.

Interesting the high variance of this R-M269* from Val di Fiemme:

VF-45 15 12 22 28 15 15 14 14 14 10 11 20 11 12 16 10 21 R1b-M269*

Rathna
12-03-2013, 02:16 PM
Interesting the high variance of this R-M269* from Val di Fiemme:

VF-45 15 12 22 28 15 15 14 14 14 10 11 20 11 12 16 10 21 R1b-M269*

Of course it is hg. G-M201! Thus as usual we should correct every haplotype before doing any other consideration.

ADW_1981
12-03-2013, 02:29 PM
It's more interesting to look at the non-R1b and if there are any implications. Timau seems almost like a Slavic or Balkan population. Not sure if there is any significance to lower R1b in PRI(Italian spk)) or SAP(German spk). The former has higher G2a, and the latter has E-V13 which offsets the R1b.

jeanL
12-03-2013, 02:52 PM
Of course it is hg. G-M201! Thus as usual we should correct every haplotype before doing any other consideration.

I doubt VF-45 is G-M201, even if it seems so from the STR signature. Per the authors they typed the SNPs in each individuals. See here:




Laboratory analyses

The DNA was extracted using the ‘Nucleic Acid Isolation System’ by the QuickGene-810 instrument following the standard protocols for blood and swab samples (FUJIFILM) or using a modified “salting-out” procedure.

The 17 Y-chromosomal short tandem repeats (STRs) included in the AmpFlSTR Yfiler Amplification Kit (AB Applied Biosystems; DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS385ab, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439, DYS448, DYS456, DYS458, DYS635 and GATA H4.1) were typed in all samples (with the exclusion of 59 samples from Non and Sole valleys belonging to the R-M269* lineage which had been previously published [3]). PCR products were analyzed by capillary electrophoresis in an ABI 3100 Genetic analyzer (Applied Biosystem, Foster City, CA). Fifty Y-specific unique-event polymorphisms were examined in hierarchical order (M17, M102, M153, M170, M172, M173, M201, M222, M223, M224, M241, M253, M26, M267, M269, M280, M282, M304, M319, M35, M410, M423, M438, M45, M47, M521, M67, M78, M89, M9, M92, P37.2, S116, S127, S139, S144, S145, S167, S21, S28, S29, SRY2627, V12, V13, V148, V19, V22, V27, V32, V65). Firstly, all samples were tested by one basal multiplex (MY1) following the protocol reported in Onofri et al. [33] with the addition of UEPs M269, M17, M201, M267, M282 and M304. Afterwards, all the samples derived for the M269 mutation (T>C), M35 (C>G), M170 (A>C), and M172 (A>C) were further analyzed using the specific multiplex for haplogroups R1b*, E*, I* and J2* , respectively ([3,34] and Brisighelli F and Capelli C, personal communication). The protocol includes first PCR amplification reactions by using the Qiagen Multiplex PCR kit with the conditions specified by the producer [35] and subsequent purification by enzymatic method (ExoSAP; [36]). The purified products were then used for a single-base extension reactions by the SNAPShot method (Applied Biosystems Carlsbad, CA).

So:

VF-45 15 12 22 28 15 15 14 14 14 10 11 20 11 12 16 10 21 R1b-M269*

Is truly an R1b-M269(xR1b-S167), not a G-M201 sample.

Rathna
12-03-2013, 02:55 PM
I doubt VF-45 is G-M201, even if it seems so from the STR signature. Per the authors they typed the SNPs in each individuals. See here:



So:

VF-45 15 12 22 28 15 15 14 14 14 10 11 20 11 12 16 10 21 R1b-M269*

Is truly an R1b-M269(xR1b-S167), not a G-M201 sample.

I was very angry and am posting this

"I have been a teacher in the High School for 40 years and my salary didn't reach 2000 euro, and we are paying of these persons for writing all this BS!"

when I read your post.

This haplotype is G-M201!

jeanL
12-03-2013, 03:03 PM
I was very angry and am posting this

"I have been a teacher in the High School for 40 years and my salary didn't reach 2000 euro, and we are paying of these persons for writing all this BS!"

when I read your post.

This haplotype is G-M201!

Why are you angry?? What reasons do you have to doubt that the authors didn't test the SNP mutations?? Please refrain from personal attacks!! I'm sorry about your position, I know teachers are severely underpaid everywhere, trust me, I work as a professor(Basic Math-Calculus-DE and Physics) at a local college right now!!:\

ADW_1981
12-03-2013, 03:31 PM
Why are you angry?? What reasons do you have to doubt that the authors didn't test the SNP mutations?? Please refrain from personal attacks!! I'm sorry about your position, I know teachers are severely underpaid everywhere, trust me, I work as a professor(Basic Math-Calculus-DE and Physics) at a local college right now!!:\

Not in Canada ;)

Silesian
12-03-2013, 03:36 PM
....and of course a German origin can not be excluded. Difficult to say which was the oldest one, but we'll answer also this next.

It would be interesting to compare Walser/Valais/Alemanni, from upper Rhone R1b to Cimbri R1b to Kromsdorf.

The Walser are the speakers of the Walser German dialects, a variety of Highest Alemannic. They inhabit the Alps of Switzerland and Liechtenstein, as well as on the fringes of Italy and Austria. The Walser people are named after the Wallis (Valais), the uppermost Rhône River valley, where they settled from roughly the 10th century in the late phase of the migration of the Alamanni,

Both speak high German;


Old High German (OHG, German: Althochdeutsch, German abbr. Ahd.) is the earliest stage of the German language ...

ADW_1981
12-03-2013, 03:53 PM
It would be interesting to compare Walser/Valais/Alemanni, from upper Rhone R1b to Cimbri R1b to Kromsdorf.


Both speak high German;

Yet oddly enough the Cimbri population look very Middle-Eastern R1b(M269* or L23*) and T. Not sure if there is a logical explanation for that. The paper did say that the M269/L23 were all associated to the same surname. Not sure why hg T appears in both LES and LUS though.

alan
12-03-2013, 03:57 PM
So they didnt test L23? So M269* is really in this case just M269xL51. So, that could be either M269* or L23xL51.

alan
12-03-2013, 03:58 PM
Cimmerians:0)


Yet oddly enough the Cimbri population look very Middle-Eastern R1b(M269* or L23*) and T. Not sure if there is a logical explanation for that. The paper did say that the M269/L23 were all associated to the same surname. Not sure why hg T appears in both LES and LUS though.

alan
12-03-2013, 04:01 PM
Or they look Balkan-like to give a less exotic explanation.


Yet oddly enough the Cimbri population look very Middle-Eastern R1b(M269* or L23*) and T. Not sure if there is a logical explanation for that. The paper did say that the M269/L23 were all associated to the same surname. Not sure why hg T appears in both LES and LUS though.

Silesian
12-03-2013, 04:02 PM
Yet oddly enough the Cimbri population look very Middle-Eastern R1b(M269* or L23*) and T. Not sure if there is a logical explanation for that. The paper did say that the M269/L23 were all associated to the same surname. Not sure why hg T appears in both LES and LUS though.
Perhaps also found in regions with specific language isolates, like high German?
R1b(M269* or L23*) Albanian, Greek,Thracian,Anatolian,Armenian

newtoboard
12-03-2013, 04:04 PM
Cimmerians?

Unlikely if they are actually the descendants of Timber-Grave.

alan
12-03-2013, 04:07 PM
Teachers wages went down and down in the UK in the 70s and early 80s but they are a lot more reasonable now. I am not one myself but most of my relatives are. Mind you teachers of essay based subjects like English and History have to do incredible amounts of evening marking and paperwork after their working day so anyone who grudges them their long holidays is just ignorant of the facts of teaching life.


Not in Canada ;)

ADW_1981
12-03-2013, 05:00 PM
Teachers wages went down and down in the UK in the 70s and early 80s but they are a lot more reasonable now. I am not one myself but most of my relatives are. Mind you teachers of essay based subjects like English and History have to do incredible amounts of evening marking and paperwork after their working day so anyone who grudges them their long holidays is just ignorant of the facts of teaching life.

They are well compensated here and have good pensions. I don't know about the UK, but I hear public school teachers in the USA don't have it as nearly as good. Anyhow, I digress. My anti-union rants might not belong on this forum!

TigerMW
12-03-2013, 05:05 PM
Let's stick to the topic. A tad bit of off-topic stuff is okay embedded with the on-topic content but let's not go off tangent with chit chat. By the way, I like teachers. I married one. Pensions? don't get me started.

alan
12-03-2013, 05:14 PM
yes it moderately well paid and has good pensions. Its a decent overall package as long as you dont have overly high expectations of the high life. I also get the impression police are poorly paid in the US, well on TV they are portrayed that way a lot. In the UK police seem to be paid well and usually seem to live in nice areas.


They are well compensated here and have good pensions. I don't know about the UK, but I hear public school teachers in the USA don't have it as nearly as good. Anyhow, I digress. My anti-union rants might not belong on this forum!

alan
12-03-2013, 05:15 PM
OK back to topic (this compartmental chatting doesnt agree with my random thinking lol)


Let's stick to the topic. A tad bit of off-topic stuff is okay embedded with the on-topic content but let's not go off tangent with chit chat. By the way, I like teachers. I married one. Pensions? don't get me started.

vettor
12-04-2013, 05:04 AM
Some scholars state , cimmerians and cimbrians are same people in regards to the cimbrians in north italian area, because genetics proved the cimbrians where not from jutland and only arrived in italy via bavaria in the 11th century.
Cimmerians fled from the sycthians from their homeland which was north side of the black sea, around 700BC, one group to pannonia and noricum ( modern hungary and Eastern Austria) and othe rgoing to anatolia

vettor
12-04-2013, 05:07 AM
I doubt VF-45 is G-M201, even if it seems so from the STR signature. Per the authors they typed the SNPs in each individuals. See here:



So:

VF-45 15 12 22 28 15 15 14 14 14 10 11 20 11 12 16 10 21 R1b-M269*

Is truly an R1b-M269(xR1b-S167), not a G-M201 sample.

I agree with rathna, in that some of the data is flawed. I tested 2 of the K-M9 and got a G for one and an I or another. I was using ypredictor and athey.

maybe the people added some cells in the sheet and skewed the table

vettor
12-04-2013, 05:13 AM
Yet oddly enough the Cimbri population look very Middle-Eastern R1b(M269* or L23*) and T. Not sure if there is a logical explanation for that. The paper did say that the M269/L23 were all associated to the same surname. Not sure why hg T appears in both LES and LUS though.

T marker is present at 4.5% to 6% in tyrol, trentino, alpine areas of Veneto and Friuli.........as well as some swiss and south german areas. There is also 8% of L marker in same areas.

Pichler, Mueller, Stefanov et al. 2006 (277 samples)
Pattaro et al. 2007 (1175 participants)
Thomas et al. 2007 (263 men)
Erhart, Berger, Niederstätter et al. 2012 (261 samples)
and then add the italian tests on top of

vettor
12-04-2013, 05:15 AM
Or they look Balkan-like to give a less exotic explanation.

?

what dinaric, noric or pontic ............which?

Rathna
12-04-2013, 06:19 AM
These data could be very interesting for understanding the origin of R-M269 and R-L23, but we should be sure of their SNP test. Some values of R-M269 for DYS385a and b are very suspect:
16 18
12 17
12 16
13 14
11 16
15 15
beyond the 14 14 of this hg. G.
Of course if these samples were confirmed R-M269 or R-L23 it could demonstrate a high variance, but I can not construct a theory upon nothing.

alan
12-04-2013, 12:40 PM
I didnt mean phenotype. I just meant geographically speaking. yDNA has little correlation with phenotype. Geographically I am being vague because its not clear. All that seems clear is that there is a higher frequency of older branchings east of the Adriatic.


?

what dinaric, noric or pontic ............which?

vettor
12-04-2013, 05:44 PM
I didnt mean phenotype. I just meant geographically speaking. yDNA has little correlation with phenotype. Geographically I am being vague because its not clear. All that seems clear is that there is a higher frequency of older branchings east of the Adriatic.

Thanks

Maybe reading the following trio of links which are Alpine based can give you more on R1b

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v21/n6/full/ejhg2012229a.html

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0056371

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0081704