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lppt
03-23-2019, 11:18 AM
Hi there again!

Im Portuguese. Born and raised here like my father, like my grandfather, like my great grandfather etc.

Yseq tells me im J-M267. I ordered a Y37 test 2 days ago from FTDNA. After that i will probably update to Y67 or do the M267v3 SNP from them.

Ive been reading a lot but i cant find a concrete answer as to how my father line ended up here.

My ancestor probably ended up here some time between the chalcolithic and the bronze age.

Jews and gypsies carry (for the most part) haplogroup J2.

I do not think my ancestor was arab because of the reconquista but its a possibility (ive got 6% north african ancestry).

FTDNA tells me that im:
47% Iberian
29% Irish/English
17% Southeast european
6% North african

The Irish/english part is a real surprise to me and my family. According to this https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/reference-populations-next-gen/

im more Irish/English (14.5 times) than the average Iberian. Can this be a hint?

What tribes entered Iberia from the north?

Ruderico
03-23-2019, 11:23 AM
Don't pay too much attention to results from comercial tests when they vary wildly. I suggest you upload your rawdata to Gedmatch and compare your Eurogenes K13 and K15 results to that of other Portuguese, that way you'll have a standardized way to compare them. Although yes, you aer very west Euro shifted - you should research your geneaology because you might have a foreign ancestor. Maybe.

Also keep in mind that the first J2-M267 man who entered Iberia likely gave you no DNA at all besides the Y chromossome. Just because you have a certain yDNA doesn't mean your results will be shifted in his ethnic origin direction.

lppt
03-23-2019, 11:35 AM
Yes i know that. I just want to find who he was. How did he got here. Was he a slave? A member from some tribe? A pastor? A hunter? If i was R1b, i probably would not be as curious as im right now but being J1 as it only represents 2% of the portuguese population, got me thinking a lot!

RCO
03-23-2019, 01:19 PM
We have different types of J1-M267 in Portugal. We can observe different origins. We have the J1-FGC6064<FGC6035 Iranian type with a cluster expanding in the Reconquista from the North to the South, Cristãos Velhos, possible origin with the Alans in the fall of Roman Gallaecia and Lusitania. We have types of J1 with the Cohen Match, possible origin with the Jewish movements and Cristãos Novos. We have types of J1- FGC2, possible origins with the Arab tribes and Islamic movements. We have J1 types associated with Eastern Mediterranean movements probably associated with the Phoenicians. We can observe several other types of Portuguese J1 haplotypes still being investigated.
We can find the type of J1-M267 with at least 12 STR markers or the position of major J1 SNPs, so we can try to find the J1 group and possible origin.

Kelmendasi
03-23-2019, 01:21 PM
All depends on the clade. Most J1 in Portugal from my knowledge was spread by Semitic speakers, mainly Phoenicians, Arabs and Jews. If you belong to a subgroup of J-YSC234 then it is most likely your paternal ancestor spoke one of those Semitic languages. I know that there is some Portuguese J1 that belongs to the FGC6064>FGC6035 branch, this seems to be connected to the Caucasus-Iran area and it's possible that it could've spread with Iranic speakers into Europe. I know that it has been connected to Alans. There are also rarer J1 clades found in Europe that show an expansion during the Neolithic or even Mesolithic.

Agamemnon
03-23-2019, 05:45 PM
This will really depend on the branch you carry, it might also depend on the region of Portugal your paternal ancestors inhabited. Like RCO said, there's an entire cluster under M365.1 which is made up of Portuguese individuals, there's also an Iranian sample from Mazandaran province under M365.1, this branch of J1 is a relatively basal one that seems to have stayed put around the Caspian sea, it easily could've arrived with the Iberian Alans.

Still, this is a rare branch. The odds are more in favour of you carrying a branch of J1-L862, a marker that is quite likely to have been present amongst the earliest Semitic-speaking groups in the southernmost parts of the Levant (the Proto-Semites). Here too, the branch and/or specific subclade you carry should enable us to tell where and possibly when your paternal ancestors arrived in Iberia, there are numerous contenders, starting with the Phoenicians who settled along the coast of modern-day Algarve.

J Man
03-23-2019, 05:56 PM
Hi there again!

Im Portuguese. Born and raised here like my father, like my grandfather, like my great grandfather etc.

Yseq tells me im J-M267. I ordered a Y37 test 2 days ago from FTDNA. After that i will probably update to Y67 or do the M267v3 SNP from them.

Ive been reading a lot but i cant find a concrete answer as to how my father line ended up here.

My ancestor probably ended up here some time between the chalcolithic and the bronze age.

Jews and gypsies carry (for the most part) haplogroup J2.

I do not think my ancestor was arab because of the reconquista but its a possibility (ive got 6% north african ancestry).

FTDNA tells me that im:
47% Iberian
29% Irish/English
17% Southeast european
6% North african

The Irish/english part is a real surprise to me and my family. According to this https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/reference-populations-next-gen/

im more Irish/English (14.5 times) than the average Iberian. Can this be a hint?

What tribes entered Iberia from the north?

That is a broad and rather inaccurate statement about ''Jews'' and ''Gypsies'' carrying J2 for the most part. J2 is present in many more ethnic and cultural groups other than just ''Jews'' and ''Gypsies''. Jews have a lot of J1 as well plus E1b1b, G2, R1a and more. The Roma (Gypsies) also carry a lot of H with J2 and other haplogroups such as I also being present.

aaronbee2010
03-23-2019, 06:41 PM
Yes i know that. I just want to find who he was. How did he got here. Was he a slave? A member from some tribe? A pastor? A hunter? If i was R1b, i probably would not be as curious as im right now but being J1 as it only represents 2% of the portuguese population, got me thinking a lot!

The only thing you have in common with the first man on your patrilineal line to enter Portugal is the Y chromosome. Your aDNA is a product of all of your ancestors. I believe you have almost no common DNA with an ancestor who lived 10 generations before you.

Assuming 25-30 years per generation, that would correspond to having almost no common aDNA with an ancestor who lived 250-300 years ago.

This link is very good for explaining this in further detail: https://gcbias.org/2013/11/04/how-much-of-your-genome-do-you-inherit-from-a-particular-ancestor/

For example, if you come under J-FGC6035 (the branch of J-M365 that all Portuguese samples on YFull come under), then your paternal ancestor who entered Portugal would've lived around 1250 years ago at the latest. He would be way too far for you to have common aDNA with him, but the good thing with Y chromosomes is that they can't mix with other Y chromosomes as almost 100% of people don't have more than one Y chromosome. Because of this, your Y-DNA remains mostly unchanged over many generations, with the only changes being due to mutations, as mixing with other Y chromosomes is impossible as Y chromosomes are always isolated.

I know exactly what you mean. You're exactly where I was nearly a year ago! People like me who come under R2a-M124 (L295-) only account for about 2.28% of men in our group by my estimates. If I had a common subclade for my group like L1a2-M357 or R1a1a1-M417 (63.82% of men in our group combined), then I wouldn't have put anywhere near the amount of effort into Y-DNA testing as I currently have. The problem with subclades around mine is that they're generally rare, with few confirmed South Asian samples on YFull and even less South Asian samples on FTDNA. At first, my Y-DNA frustrated me, but gradually, I came to love how unique it was. The rarity that was once an annoyance became quite a charm to me.

E_M81_I3A
03-23-2019, 09:56 PM
The only thing you have in common with the first man on your patrilineal line to enter Portugal is the Y chromosome. Your aDNA is a product of all of your ancestors. I believe you have almost no common DNA with an ancestor who lived 10 generations before you..

Yes but this "only thing" (the Y chromosome) they have in common with their ancestors on the paternal line is for many people still the most important. Many ethnic groups are still mainly patrilineal and consider the Y chromosome passed on from father to son to be the most important while they often do not really care of the other lines (autosomal dna) in fact. I guess this is not the case in India but this is the case for example in many Mediterranean ethnic groups like Arabs, Berbers, Turks etc even if they know, of course, they have probably almost no common DNA with an ancestor who lived many generations ago (except what they consider to be the most important : the Y-chromosome). By the way, you can see the huge number of posts related to Y-chromosome while all people perfectly know they did not inherit so much dna from this line.

aaronbee2010
03-23-2019, 10:17 PM
Yes but this "only thing" they have in common with their ancestors on the paternal line is for many people still the most important. Many ethnic groups are still mainly patrilineal and consider the Y chromosome passed on from father to son to be the most important (and do not really care of their autosomal Dna in fact). This is not the case in India for example but this is the case in some Mediterranean ethnic groups like Arabs, Berbers etc even if they know, of course, they have probably almost no common DNA with an ancestor who lived many generations ago (except what they consider to be the most important : the Y-chromosome). By the way, you can see the huge number posts related to Y-chromosome while all people perfectly know they did not inherit so much dna from this line.

I never said anywhere that it wasn't important. I'm not sure if you think I implied this or not, but nowhere in my post did I downplay the importance of Y-DNA in any way at all. If anything, I briefly mentioned the fact that Y-DNA stays relatively unchanged through consecutive generations unlike aDNA, as well as mention the high amount of effort into my own Y-DNA, which wouldn't make any sense if I didn't think Y-DNA was not important. Again, I'm not sure if you thought that I was saying that Y-DNA is important or not, but your post did come across like that, at least to me.

I completely agree that Y-DNA is important, specifically because of its non-recombinant nature and it's link to patrilineal lineage. The latter is mainly important in Mediterranean groups who place very strong importance on patrilineal descent from a specific common ancestor for various reasons. Even in groups in India that don't claim descent from a specific person, proportions of Y-DNA as well as what subclades are present can give a very good idea of how the group originated. This principle applies to mtDNA too.

Agamemnon
03-23-2019, 10:18 PM
Yes but this "only thing" they have in common with their ancestors on the paternal line is for many people still the most important. Many ethnic groups are still mainly patrilineal and consider the Y chromosome passed on from father to son to be the most important while they often do not really care of the other lines (autosomal dna) in fact. I guess this is not the case in India but this is the case for example in many ethnic groups like Arabs, Berbers, Turks, Kurds, etc even if they know, of course, they have probably almost no common DNA with an ancestor who lived many generations ago (except what they consider to be the most important : the Y-chromosome). By the way, you can see the huge number of posts related to Y-chromosome while all people perfectly know they did not inherit so much dna from this line.

Indeed, and more importantly when a given ethnic group practices endogamy, you are bound to find the same Y-DNA lineage over many lines. I'll give a small example, my paternal grandfather's paternal grandfather and maternal grandmother were paternal cousins (they had the same family name in fact), so it's a given that his maternal grandmother's father also was J1-Z18271. Likewise if an ethnic group has been through intense demographic pressure (think of the Ashkenazi bottleneck) and the lineages either have large frequencies (as in North Africa where E-M81 is clearly predominant) or experienced founder effects (these often go hand in hand). In such cases, a given paternal lineage is bound to represent a far greater percentage of one's ancestry.

But of course, J1 in Portugal is not really concerned by such processes. R1b-DF27 is to a large extent though.

Lupriac
03-23-2019, 10:19 PM
Yes but this "only thing" (the Y chromosome) they have in common with their ancestors on the paternal line is for many people still the most important. Many ethnic groups are still mainly patrilineal and consider the Y chromosome passed on from father to son to be the most important while they often do not really care of the other lines (autosomal dna) in fact. I guess this is not the case in India but this is the case for example in many ethnic groups like Arabs, Berbers, Turks, Kurds, etc even if they know, of course, they have probably almost no common DNA with an ancestor who lived many generations ago (except what they consider to be the most important : the Y-chromosome). By the way, you can see the huge number of posts related to Y-chromosome while all people perfectly know they did not inherit so much dna from this line.
Clearly aDNA is what makes a better clear picture, they complete each other.

RCO
03-23-2019, 11:40 PM
The genetic composition of the J1 bearer 20000 yrs ago was probably associated with CHG and Iran_HG. We had posterior Anatolian and EEF admixtures probably with EHG and the movement to Western Iberia from Northern Middle East, perhaps in just one generation directly from the Caspian Sea to the Atlantic Façade in Western Iberia, Remnants of WHG and Northern African admixtures there. In my case another big jump from Portugal to Colonial Brazil in one generation with the Portuguese Empire and later some small proportions of Amerindian (part of the same admixtures of Northern Europeans) and African admixtures (part of the same admixtures present in the Mediterranean), but I am still an autossomal product of the adjacent regions where J1 was born and evolved in Northern Middle East. I imagine that I would not be considered a foreigner or an outlier in terms of phenotype in the J1 tribes 20000 years ago and I would pass as a "normal" guy there and only a genetic test would show that I am different from the average J1 man from 20000 yeras ago !

lppt
06-24-2019, 10:13 AM
RCO any idea when and how YSC235 ended up here?

RCO
06-24-2019, 06:07 PM
YSC0000235 is complex and full of different branches, just follow your matches. The only way to know is to investigate the matches and clusters in order to find your specific trail of SNPs.

lppt
06-24-2019, 06:18 PM
Thats the thing. Im YSC235 (ftdna m267v3 snp pack)! Im negative for YSC234 and everything else.

My subclade is probably Z27682. I will need to use yseq again to confirm it i guess..

RCO
06-24-2019, 06:40 PM
Yes https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z27682/

lppt
06-24-2019, 06:58 PM
Yes https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z27682/

But how can that be? Its quite old! Does it mean that my ancestor got here by the end of the neolithic?

Ruderico
06-25-2019, 08:29 AM
But how can that be? Its quite old! Does it mean that my ancestor got here by the end of the neolithic?

Mine was formed 6700 years ago, some haplogroups are just that rare

vianasemitanovo
07-29-2019, 08:31 PM
Gather what you know about your chromosome Y and more your family history and profession and genealogy.

konian lusitanum
10-05-2019, 05:15 AM
my is j1a -cts5368 and by the research i done it points at neolithic, with the arrival of Anatolian farmers , it is very rare one so its very ancient means i got ancestor dating back to 17.000 years , my parents and gran parents were farmers , from north of Portugal

konian lusitanum
10-05-2019, 05:22 AM
my is j1a -cts5368 and by the research i done it points at neolithic, with the arrival of Anatolian farmers , it is very rare one so its very ancient means i got ancestor dating back to 17.000 years , my parents and gran parents were farmers , from north of Portugal

Ruderico
10-05-2019, 06:19 AM
Just because that clade is 17000 years old it doesn't mean it arrived a very long time ago

levantino II
10-05-2019, 07:28 AM
my is j1a -cts5368 and by the research i done it points at neolithic, with the arrival of Anatolian farmers , it is very rare one so its very ancient means i got ancestor dating back to 17.000 years , my parents and gran parents were farmers , from north of Portugal

I think that Alexandra_K had similar result. Maybe this can help you to clear result. If you are negative on P58 and Z1828 you could be M365.1 or PF7263 haplogroup . Both have separate ways of coming on Iberian peninsula

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14449-J1-from-Greece&p=406934&viewfull=1#post406934

Oo yes, congratulation on the result;)

RCO
10-05-2019, 01:04 PM
I am also J1a -cts5368 but you should test more SNPs to find your specific J1 branch. As Levantino wrote, if you are negative to P58 and Z1828 you can be from our FGC6064, FGC6035 Portuguese branch. More tests are necessary.


my is j1a -cts5368 and by the research i done it points at neolithic, with the arrival of Anatolian farmers , it is very rare one so its very ancient means i got ancestor dating back to 17.000 years , my parents and gran parents were farmers , from north of Portugal

konian lusitanum
10-06-2019, 05:37 AM
thank you for the replay , hum so do you think that a test is needed to find the specific branch ? that can be costly which y-DNA company dos that sort of test? i know that family tree is the main one but they are very expensive

konian lusitanum
10-06-2019, 06:16 AM
thank you for your help , i got a reference from wegene , that says ;j1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1b1, i did cross reference it with that hint you gave me and i got cts5332/pf7472, i don't have a clue at all about what means i saw so many numbers there that i just got out confused

konian lusitanum
10-06-2019, 06:50 AM
i got that reference from wegene ; j1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1b1, its a big number , i did cross reference it in the tree and i got cts5332/pf7472 i don't really know what that stuff means

Ruderico
10-06-2019, 12:18 PM
i got that reference from wegene ; j1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1b1, its a big number , i did cross reference it in the tree and i got cts5332/pf7472 i don't really know what that stuff means

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS5332/

I suggest you upload your rawdata onto https://ytree.morleydna.com/ and see what it tells you

ArmandoR1b
10-06-2019, 02:16 PM
i got that reference from wegene ; j1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1b1, its a big number , i did cross reference it in the tree and i got cts5332/pf7472 i don't really know what that stuff means


https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS5332/

I suggest you upload your rawdata onto https://ytree.morleydna.com/ and see what it tells you

CTS5332/PF7472 is an SNP that is tested by 23andme v5, as well as some upstream SNPs, but are not reported by 23andme. CTS5332/PF7472 is not likely to be included in the Morley predictor.

If you download and run the program at https://bit.ly/2OoF9r6 then it will give you a list of positive and negative SNPs using a tree from 2017 which has CTS5332/PF7472 and the upstream SNPs tested nowadays.

You are very likely to truly be positive for CTS5332/PF7472 since Wegene gave you that result although Wegene is not 100% accurate all of the time either since it can't determine which SNPs are always false positives or false negatives.

edit: looking over the Morley tree he has CTS5332/PF7472 but not under J1. He has PF4851/L858 under J1. Does not have PF4845/YSC0000234/Z2329. Has PF4847/CTS11741, PF4843/Z2324, Z1853, CTS5551/PF4811/Z1865. PF4678/Z2316, Z1889/FGC1687, and PAGE8/P58/PF4698/PAGES00008 under J1. So you should have those J1 SNPs in green that are included in the tree at https://ytree.morleydna.com/ You can look at your raw data for PF7472/CTS5332 by looking for rs769562543 or position 16212441 and seeing if your genotype is G or A. G is negative and A is positive.

konian lusitanum
10-06-2019, 10:56 PM
thank you for the tip , yes i did tried that but it comes error all the time , i did took a look to other link it only have 1 snps +zs7550 time 3500

konian lusitanum
10-06-2019, 11:39 PM
thank you for your big help , yes i did found it there my phenotype is A positive as you indicated

ArmandoR1b
10-07-2019, 03:22 AM
thank you for your big help , yes i did found it there my phenotype is A positive as you indicatedI'll get you a list of the other SNPs later. Phenotype and genotype are two different things. Your genotype is A for that SNP. Your phenotype has to do with your features.

konian lusitanum
10-07-2019, 03:24 AM
thank you , yes i did passed all my data trough the program it got a lot of positive clad i think that i'm under j1a branch , i did took note of all positive snps rsid and distance i will work on it later to compare with some of portuguese dna . that tool did worked well,

konian lusitanum
10-07-2019, 04:00 AM
ha ha sorry I'm new in the matter yes you correct genotype

ArmandoR1b
10-07-2019, 06:20 AM
thank you , yes i did passed all my data trough the program it got a lot of positive clad i think that i'm under j1a branch , i did took note of all positive snps rsid and distance i will work on it later to compare with some of portuguese dna . that tool did worked well,

The tool at https://bit.ly/2OoF9r6? You can Save Displayed Table as a CSV then open it in Excel or Google Sheets then order by 2017 Haplogroup then filter for positive Yes. The ones you need to look for first are the following:





# rsid
Position
SNPs
2017 Haplogroup
Ancestral
Derived
mutation


rs34043621
14486667
P58/Page8/PF4698
J1a2a1a2
T
C
T to C


rs374024296
24435821
Z1889/FGC1687
J1a2a1a2d~
A
G
A to G


i703677
9962871
PF4678/Z2316
J1a2a1a2d~
T
C
T to C


rs367604111
16359006
CTS5551/PF4811/Z1865
J1a2a1a2d2~
G
T
G to T


rs370836300
7687003
Z1853
J1a2a1a2d2b~
C
T
C to T


rs374114169
23246065
PF4847/CTS11741
J1a2a1a2d2b2b2~
G
A
G to A


rs375566953
22957408
PF4845/YSC0000234/Z2329
J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c~
C
T
C to T


rs369778229
9879005
PF4851/L858
J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4~
C
T
C to T


rs769562543
16212441
PF7472/CTS5332
J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1b1~
G
A
G to A







I just looked at the file of another J1 person and I am beginning to think that you have a no-call for P58 and that might be the reason you were given CTS5368 at 23andme.

Kelmendasi
10-07-2019, 12:28 PM
I just looked at the file of another J1 person and I am beginning to think that you have a no-call for P58 and that might be the reason you were given CTS5368 at 23andme.
He could still be P58+, I'm positive for P58 but still got classified as J-CTS5368 by 23andme.

Kelmendasi
10-07-2019, 01:10 PM
i got that reference from wegene ; j1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1b1, its a big number , i did cross reference it in the tree and i got cts5332/pf7472 i don't really know what that stuff means
CTS5332 is a subclade of Z1884>Y3441 which is a fairly large group that originated sometime during the Early Bronze Age, probably around the Levant https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3441/. Z1884 itself seems to be linked to the Central Semitic language group which includes Arabic, the NW Semitic languages (Aramaic and Canaanite) and some extinct branches such as Amorite. The Arabic clades usually come under FGC11 and not Y3441, so it's very likely that CTS5332 arrived to Iberia with a group that spoke a non-Arabic Central Semitic language. I think that Y3441 has more of an association with NW Semitic, probably Canaanite. Basal Y3441 has been found in Jordan and there are several clades that have been found in Palestine and Jews (mainly Ashkenazi by the looks of it).

On Yfull, CTS5332 is represented by a guy from Kuwait and a guy from Ukraine who is likely an Ashkenzai Jew https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS5332/. They share a TMRCA of 3,200ybp which would place their common ancestor sometime during the Late Bronze Age, he probably lived around the Levant. CTS5332 brother clade, FGC8196, has been found in Sardinia (Cagliari) and Sicily (Catania) and they share a TMRCA of 2,900ybp. Interestingly Sardinia was under Phoenician control 2,900 years ago and Catania was eventually conquered by the Carthaginians during the 4th Century BC. This suggests a potential Phoenician origin. Based on this we could assume that CTS5332 arrived to Iberia with Phoenicians or Jews some time between the Late Bronze Age and after.

ArmandoR1b
10-07-2019, 03:19 PM
He could still be P58+, I'm positive for P58 but still got classified as J-CTS5368 by 23andme. I was just commenting on that because it is a possible reason for 23andme not assigning him an SNP downstream of P58 even though he is positive for an SNP downstream of P58. I didn't and I still don't have time to check a file that I have with a list of SNPs that 23andme does assign to people. I knew that 23andme v5 does not assign all SNPs that are tested positive in the raw data even after they fixed a glitch a while back but I am not 100% sure if there are any between P58 and what Wegene showed.

Ruderico
10-07-2019, 04:11 PM
CTS5332 is a subclade of Z1884>Y3441 which is a fairly large group that originated sometime during the Early Bronze Age, probably around the Levant https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3441/. Z1884 itself seems to be linked to the Central Semitic language group which includes Arabic, the NW Semitic languages (Aramaic and Canaanite) and some extinct branches such as Amorite. The Arabic clades usually come under FGC11 and not Y3441, so it's very likely that CTS5332 arrived to Iberia with a group that spoke a non-Arabic Central Semitic language. I think that Y3441 has more of an association with NW Semitic, probably Canaanite. Basal Y3441 has been found in Jordan and there are several clades that have been found in Palestine and Jews (mainly Ashkenazi by the looks of it).

On Yfull, CTS5332 is represented by a guy from Kuwait and a guy from Ukraine who is likely an Ashkenzai Jew https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS5332/. They share a TMRCA of 3,200ybp which would place their common ancestor sometime during the Late Bronze Age, he probably lived around the Levant. CTS5332 brother clade, FGC8196, has been found in Sardinia (Cagliari) and Sicily (Catania) and they share a TMRCA of 2,900ybp. Interestingly Sardinia was under Phoenician control 2,900 years ago and Catania was eventually conquered by the Carthaginians during the 4th Century BC. This suggests a potential Phoenician origin. Based on this we could assume that CTS5332 arrived to Iberia with Phoenicians or Jews some time between the Late Bronze Age and after.

I agree with your analysis, for the time being, with the (little) available evidence so far this seems the most plausible scenario. I'd put it with Phoenicians or other Levantine peoples who might have moved to Iberia during the Roman period.

konian lusitanum
10-11-2019, 08:03 AM
yes i tested my raw data on Morley tool it predicted j1a2b2~1~1 j1-pf4851(j1ysc0000080) j1-z1884, seem 's i'm from fenician ancestry i supose

Ruderico
10-11-2019, 08:47 AM
yes i tested my raw data on Morley tool it predicted j1a2b2~1~1 j1-pf4851(j1ysc0000080) j1-z1884, seem 's i'm from fenician ancestry i supose

Maybe, maybe not, there's a whole lot of peninsular Arabs under J-Z1884

RCO
10-11-2019, 10:43 AM
Now you can try Big Y or FGC to find your specific J1 SNPs.

Kelmendasi
10-11-2019, 03:38 PM
yes i tested my raw data on Morley tool it predicted j1a2b2~1~1 j1-pf4851(j1ysc0000080) j1-z1884, seem 's i'm from fenician ancestry i supose
It's likely that you are J-Z1884>CTS5332, given that the other predictor predicted you as such and Morley is predicting Z1884. These are just predictions however, so you should order a SNP or STR test. If you are J-CTS5332, then I'd say a Jewish or, possibly, Phoenician origin is likely.

konian lusitanum
10-11-2019, 10:15 PM
well from j wish i don't have any percentage of DNA so I'm inclined more for Phoenicians but is not so clear because looking into the phylogeny of j1 tree my initial branch was j1a2 so i supposed to be under Z2217 down to Z1828, i don't see that tree follows the j wish tree of j1a1b P 58 any way i must do more research because it is not matching my snp's 50% thank you soon i will have my positive snps in a 23 and me test tool elaborated to disclose here for you take a look and give me a more detailed insight , i'm just a amateur in regards of ancestry

konian lusitanum
10-11-2019, 10:25 PM
i'm going to try living DNA for that test , it is cheap and the ratings supersede the all main company's like 23 and me and even ftn family DNA They got 3-1 one test around 150 us dollars

konian lusitanum
10-11-2019, 10:36 PM
yes i see some matching of that numbers right there but i could not find the one P58 page 8/ pf 4698 there

konian lusitanum
10-12-2019, 05:15 AM
i got part of 23 and me test tool results , i'm gonna load it for matching with others , i see a lot of misinformation that it turns hard to compare with the j1a tree

konian lusitanum
10-12-2019, 05:22 AM
i hope the file format can be opened , let me know , what you all think about that , i know that my haplogroup is j1a for sure , i'm not sure about which branch or sub clad, i can spend some bucks in do testing but it will be taking the interest of it after i wanna find it myself with of the help of others online , it is more exciting

Kelmendasi
10-12-2019, 11:18 AM
i got part of 23 and me test tool results , i'm gonna load it for matching with others , i see a lot of misinformation that it turns hard to compare with the j1a tree
I'm not 100% sure how to read that but I did see that J-Z1884 was shown. Your origin could be Jewish, Phoenician or Arab, it all depends on what subclade you belong to. I would recommend testing with FTDNA (Y-37) or Yseq (Alpha-Beta), I don't suggesting testing with LivingDNA

ArmandoR1b
10-12-2019, 02:01 PM
It's likely that you are J-Z1884>CTS5332, given that the other predictor predicted you as such and Morley is predicting Z1884. These are just predictions however, so you should order a SNP or STR test. If you are J-CTS5332, then I'd say a Jewish or, possibly, Phoenician origin is likely.

The result of CTS5332 is correct. He even checked the raw data manually for CTS5332. I have files of various people tested by 23andme v5 and none of them have a false positive for CTS5332 or PF4851. They are reliable tests.

The public FTDNA tree has a person from Portugal under J-ZS4352, which is a phylogenetic equivalent of CTS5332, at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/J;name=J-ZS4352 That person is also positive for one or all of the following ZS4360, BY38103, ZS4365, ZS4367, ZS4368, ZS4369. If they don't show with the previous link try https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/J;name=J-ZS4360

I would not be surprised if konian lusitanum is positive for the same SNPs if he were to get a BigY test.

konian lusitanum
10-13-2019, 10:32 AM
j1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1b1a====j zs4360 is next aplogroup down of mine , its very close , on the phylogeny of j1 tree i did not found that subclad zs4360 , i presume that is a new sub clad found recently anyway tanks guys , for the big help probably i will be taking the family test of 37 snps if i did not come to a finding

konian lusitanum
10-15-2019, 10:13 AM
i just found it , my branch j1-z1884 down to j1-z643 , Levant &Europe , it points almost 80% to Phoenicians, taking in account that i have zero Semitic DNA on all my tests, thank you to everyone for the help i got in the forum , my next will be finding my maternal haplogroup

Ruderico
10-15-2019, 10:19 AM
i just found it , my branch j1-z1884 down to j1-z643 , Levant &Europe , it points almost 80% to Phoenicians, taking in account that i have zero Semitic DNA on all my tests, thank you to everyone for the help i got in the forum , my next will be finding my maternal haplogroup

I'm not so sure it arrived with Pheonicians just yet, Z643 is pretty old, it would depend on the branch. Having "Semitic DNA" or not is rather irrelevant because after some ~10 generations that ancestor leaves no autosomal trace on you.

Kelmendasi
10-15-2019, 01:37 PM
i just found it , my branch j1-z1884 down to j1-z643 , Levant &Europe , it points almost 80% to Phoenicians, taking in account that i have zero Semitic DNA on all my tests, thank you to everyone for the help i got in the forum , my next will be finding my maternal haplogroup
How did you find out that you're positive for Z643? As ArmandoR1b stated, your raw data seems to suggest that you are positive for CTS5332. It is likely that Z643 is of Phoenician origin in your case. I see that there is an Iberian cluster under ZS5769. There are some Colombians who fall under ZS5769>CTS130 and a Portuguese (and a Spaniard I think) that is ZS5769>FGC30554.

Kelmendasi
10-15-2019, 01:42 PM
I'm not so sure it arrived with Pheonicians just yet, Z643 is pretty old, it would depend on the branch. Having "Semitic DNA" or not is rather irrelevant because after some ~10 generations that ancestor leaves no autosomal trace on you.

I agree that auDNA doesn't always mean much in situations like this. I for example am Y3081 (ZS241) but don't have any admixture which would suggest "Semitic" input, however it's very clear that my distant paternal ancestor spoke a Semitic language.

konian lusitanum
10-15-2019, 07:39 PM
i got a snip jz643=2316, that is the most further down in the tree, all my other snips follow the Semitic branch p58 down to z643, that I'm positive to including j1 -ysc0000234-z2329 , yes there is a Spanish with same results

konian lusitanum
10-16-2019, 07:39 AM
ya you right , i'm getting a little by little more about how to know ancestry works , I'm happy that i know about my haplogroup , my next task will be discovering my maternal haplogroup and i will count on all of you guys to give me guidance in that , thank you

konian lusitanum
10-18-2019, 10:49 PM
coming to the point that , there is too much information there , too many people including myself speaking about ancestry and nobody know with certainty about it , most of DNA company's are bulshit they are there for the money nothing else , in my test of 23 and me i see there the p58/pages8/pf4698 saying not tested or no cal but i got downstream in the same branch of p58 , positive for ysc0000234=z2329 and PF 4851 L858 that follows the same branch , knowing that i'm j1a2 and not j1a1b, something is mixed up here

ArmandoR1b
10-19-2019, 06:31 PM
coming to the point that , there is too much information there , too many people including myself speaking about ancestry and nobody know with certainty about it , most of DNA company's are bulshit they are there for the money nothing else , in my test of 23 and me i see there the p58/pages8/pf4698 saying not tested or no cal but i got downstream in the same branch of p58 , positive for ysc0000234=z2329 and PF 4851 L858 that follows the same branch , knowing that i'm j1a2 and not j1a1b, something is mixed up here

You really shouldn't use longhand names such as J1a1 and J1a1b because ISOGG changes the names a lot. You should concentrate on SNP names and include phylogenetic equivalents such as Z2329/PF4845/YSC0000234 and CTS5332/PF7472 and P58/Page8/PF4698. Especially don't use Eupedia or Morley longhand names because they use outdated longhand names. J1a1b doesn't even exist as a longhand name anymore. Use the FTDNA tree, ,YFull, and ISOGG as a guide to which haplogroups exist. If you insist on using Eupedia you are on the FGC8223 branch which should have the SNP name and it's phylogenetic equivalents like this - Y3441/FGC8223/V7510

The only Y-DNA test that you have taken is 23andme whose focus is health related research. Uniparental haplogroups aren't a priority for 23andme. Testing companies such as Yseq.net and FamilyTreeDNA have Y-DNA tests that are much more reliable and accurate than 23andme. If you care about getting a definitive answer on Y-DNA then you need to get a test from one of those companies. Only the expensive Big Y from FTDNA and the WGS test from Yseq would allow for you to discover new Y-DNA mutations that have never before been discovered and allow you to create a new branch downstream of CTS5332/PF7472. That is turn would assist the genetic genealogy community.

The J1-M267 Superclade Panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=30693) doesn't have any tests for you downstream of YSC0000234 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YSC0000234/) I guess they haven't had enough testers positive for your SNPs downstream of YSC0000234.

If you never get another Y-DNA test at least 23andme did reliably test you for CTS5332/PF7472 and several upstream SNPs. You are positive for SNPs that lead to CTS5332/PF7472 and negative for all of the other reliably tested SNPs. Since CTS5332/PF7472 is the most downstream reliably tested SNP then that your haplogroup. There is no reason to be concerned about the others. Over time there will be a lot more ancient DNA remains tested and a lot more testers from around the world that get Y-DNA tests and the Y-DNA tree will grow with more testers downstream of CTS5332.

Since CTS5332 has a TMRCA of 3200 ybp there are a lot of possibilities of how it arrived in Portugal. With so few testers so far with Big Y tests that are positive for CTS5332 and a YFull upload it is hard to tell when the Portugal line diverged from the other lines. Since there is a person positive for CTS5332 at FTDNA then if you were to get a Big Y test and the two of you were to upload to YFull then your common branch would get a TMRCA.

The reason autosomal and Y-DNA tests exist is because there are enough of us that are interested in the results and some of us understand how to interpret the results and understand that there are limitations and we accept the limitations until the costs go down.

konian lusitanum
10-19-2019, 10:30 PM
you right in that point , I'm not only trying to find things for self interest but to have a more broad data base or at least contributing for it but big y test is out of reach for the moment, i just got information that Eupedia renamed j1a2 as j1b3a, that is a completely saussage pile we no longer know to from where to start

konian lusitanum
10-20-2019, 03:42 AM
actually i have a subclad downstream pf 1884 that i'm positive to , there is a spanish guy ID -HGO1686 but i can't access his results I'm not a member

ArmandoR1b
10-20-2019, 05:33 AM
actually i have a subclad downstream pf 1884 that i'm positive to , there is a spanish guy ID -HGO1686 but i can't access his results I'm not a member

Where do you get PF1884 from? I'm not finding that SNP. Did you mean Z1884? The 1000 Genomes participant with the id of HG01686 is positive for Z1884 but negative for known SNPs downstream from Z1884. You don't share a common ancestor with him in the last 4600 years. You and the other person from Portugal share a lot more SNPs downstream from Z1884 since he is also positive for CTS5332/PF7472 which means you share a common ancestor with him in at least the past 3200 years and probably even more recently. You can see the Portugal flag at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/J;name=J-ZS4360 He is not at YFull so he doesn't show up there.

konian lusitanum
10-20-2019, 10:37 AM
L858 /Z1884/PF4851

konian lusitanum
10-20-2019, 11:09 AM
i'm negative also for snips down L858, Z1884, i can't find anything down in my positive snps , i don't know where i got that pf7472/cts5332 i can't find it in my positive snips by the way i took a look at that portuguese fellow but he downstream of ysc0000076, and i'm not , i got only to L858/Z1884

ArmandoR1b
10-20-2019, 01:03 PM
i'm negative also for snips down L858, Z1884, i can't find anything down in my positive snps , i don't know where i got that pf7472/cts5332 i can't find it in my positive snips by the way i took a look at that portuguese fellow but he downstream of ysc0000076, and i'm not , i got only to L858/Z1884

Didn't you say that you looked at your raw data for rs769562543 or position 16212441 and saw that you have a genotype of A? That is what you wrote in post #32 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16744-How-J-M267-ended-up-in-Portugal&p=608266&viewfull=1#post608266) as a response to my suggestion in post #30. That means that you are positive for PF7472/CTS5332. I know that 23andme tests for that SNP. Wegene also gave you positive for PF7472/CTS5332 and they just interpret raw data which means that they found PF7472/CTS5332 in the raw data of your 23andme results. Don't pay attention to the Morley predictor. It is an outdated tool that gives incorrect results too often. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Morley doesn't look at PF7472/CTS5332.

23andme doesn't test for any other SNPs between L858/PF4851 and PF7472/CTS5332 so you couldn't have gotten a negative for anything else downstream from L858/PF4851 but before PF7472/CTS5332. You are supposed to be negative for the branches downstream from L858/PF4851 that are on different branches than what leads to PF7472/CTS5332. 23andme does not test for Z1884/CTS10835/PF4828 either but we can reliably assume you are positive for Z1884 since you are positive for both L858/PF4851 and PF7472/CTS5332.

You are also positive for YSC0000076 because you are positive for PF7472/CTS5332. You can't have a negative for YSC0000076 in your raw DNA because you weren't tested for YSC0000076. You don't need to be tested for YSC0000076 anyway because you are positive for PF7472/CTS5332.

It is hard for DNA novices, and even some not so new to DNA, to understand the intricacies of the different predictors, what is tested by the testing companies, and what is reliable and what is not. I have been doing analyses for many years and I understand these predictors and tests. So I know that you don't, or didn't, understand what you have looked at.

When you uploaded the scans was that based on the tool that I linked to earlier? It looks like it since you used the 2017 longhand haplogroup names that I used to update that tool. Try the tool again then click on File then Save Displayed Table then make a name for it. Then upload the csv file to Google Sheets, Google Drive, or another file sharing site then paste a link here or you can email me the CSV file. I'll send you the email address in a private message.

edit: Corrected info about SNPs tested downstream from L858/PF4851.

ArmandoR1b
10-21-2019, 01:24 AM
konian lusitanum, I have to make a correction to an earlier statement. The J1-M267 Superclade Panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=30693) does have any L858 and YSC0000076. However it does not have Y3442/FGC8224 * Y3441/FGC8223/V7510 or any of the SNPs downstream of those.

YSC0000076 can be purchased as a single SNP order for a low price at https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=32822

I wished an SNP at Yseq for CTS5332, ZS4360, ZS4365 so I'll find out in the next few days if those SNPs will be available as individual tests. If so then hopefully they also get added to the J1-M267 Superclade Panel.

I hope you will be interested in one of the individual tests so that you can have further proof of your placement in the tree.

For a visual, I created a fake raw 23andme file that is positive for CTS5332 and tested upstream SNPs then uploaded it to Morley. I am sure this is what you saw since it will have the same positive SNPs that your raw file has but the Morley predictor is incorrect, as I stated earlier, because of two things - 1. it does not include CTS5332 and 2. it has outdated longhand names.

Notice that YSC0000076 does not show as positive or negative. Again, that is because it is not in the 23andme raw data.

https://i.imgur.com/8vJkHqK.png

I attached the fake raw 23andme file with just the Y-DNA. You will see that it has the same Y-DNA rsid names, positions, and genotype that your raw data file has.

konian lusitanum
10-21-2019, 07:46 AM
hi yes the morsley predictor was exactly the same as illustrated, you right i'm just new to matters of DNA i just look at people say in the forums and about it online nothing else i did a few autosomal tests to have a segund opinion about my ethnicity and the curiosity about my ancient roots come up , is good to know about that things but no many people from Portugal ou Spain been tested for they ancestry so no many information out there that we can compare , ya as soon i got all positive snips ready i will send it to you for you to have a look

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-25-2019, 02:23 AM
You're of Judhami-Lakhmi (majority of YSC76)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakhmids

Ruderico
10-25-2019, 08:50 AM
You're of Judhami-Lakhmi (majority of YSC76)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakhmids

It's perfectly possible his paternal line tracks back to it, especially considering there were Lakhmids in Al-Andaluz (the Abbadids of the Taifa of Seville, for example (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Lakhm#Famous_Lakhmid_families,_emirates_and_p ersons)), but until further SNP testing is done it's a bit premature to say that with any certainty because the clade is some 5100-4000 years old.

If that is the case, one of his paternal ancestors/relatives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_ibn_Nusayr) could have been responsible for the muslim invasion of Iberia. How the tables have turned.

Kelmendasi
10-25-2019, 03:55 PM
You're of Judhami-Lakhmi (majority of YSC76)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakhmids
What clade under YSC76 (Y2919) do the Lakhmids fall under? The clade which he potentially belongs to, CTS5332, seems to have more of a Levantine affiliation, potentially Jewish or Phoenician in his case.

konian lusitanum
10-25-2019, 09:27 PM
i just purchased a YSEQ test for the j1- M 267 superclade panel, to see where it takes , and make a contribution to human DNA project

konian lusitanum
10-25-2019, 09:30 PM
Im inclined for that area but only with further testing we can find out

ArmandoR1b
10-26-2019, 03:41 AM
i just purchased a YSEQ test for the j1- M 267 superclade panel, to see where it takes , and make a contribution to human DNA project
Once you reach the most downstream SNPs available in that panel and it shows you positive for YSC0000076 then you can purchase ZS4352 and if positive for ZS4352 then you can purchase ZS4360 and ZS4365 which are SNPs that the other person from Portugal and a person from Kuwait are positive for. You could even order ZS4352 right now just to know ahead of time if you are positive for it. ZS4352 is not part of the panel so it is not redundant testing.

konian lusitanum
10-26-2019, 06:28 AM
ya its a good idea , but i'm gonna wait for the test first i'm not rely anymore in 23 and me test i wanna see everything starting from the bottom to the top got the info i belong to j1 m267 so lets see where it lead us into i think that superclade panel will take me more close than i been

ArmandoR1b
10-26-2019, 02:52 PM
ya its a good idea , but i'm gonna wait for the test first i'm not rely anymore in 23 and me test i wanna see everything starting from the bottom to the top got the info i belong to j1 m267 so lets see where it lead us into i think that superclade panel will take me more close than i been

Yseq is more reliable but I have no doubt that the positive result of CTS5332 is reliable and you will show positive for YSC0000076. If you aren't already aware of the testing process at Yseq they test certain SNPs then after a positive SNP is found they test some more SNPs then move down the tree a few days at a time. The full run can take several weeks to more than a month. See https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11521-How-Long-Does-YSEQ-Usually-Take

konian lusitanum
10-26-2019, 08:08 PM
ho that is ok , i'm not in the hurry, , i know already that i come down in the tree cts5368 down to cts5332 , i need to know where it go from there , because there is no more leads down the tree , i did observed that there is 2 guys one Ukrainian and a Yemen under cts5332 also in a tree it means that they did not come down from that clad , i know that im not very experienced in the field but i see that there is constant reviews in genetics so nothing is certain , everything is based in predictions and calculations, but by the way thank you for your guidance we will going get results

ArmandoR1b
10-26-2019, 10:01 PM
everything is based in predictions and calculations, but by the way thank you for your guidance we will going get results

You're welcome. There are a lot of predictions and calculations in DNA. Some things are definitive though. At least you are on track to getting an indisputable subclade.

konian lusitanum
10-27-2019, 09:17 AM
i just looked at this document from verifiable source

ArmandoR1b
10-27-2019, 09:24 PM
i just looked at this document from verifiable source

The study is from 2005 and a lot has been learned since then. There is still a lot more to learn too. The study might have reached the right conclusion anyway though. The most frustrating aspect of academic studies is that they are limited by funding and therefore can only do specific types of tests and with a limited number of people. Most of the time if the scope of the study is of DNA results of living individuals there is no absolute of when a specific haplogroup first appeared in a region and with which ethnic group. 16 positive for J1-M267 out of 553 people shows how rare the haplogroup is in Portugal and how difficult it will be to get a definitive answer on when and how it arrived in Portugal. Unfortunately the study did not include NGS or WGS testing and because of it the SNPs downstream from J1-M267 weren't tested. That is what makes Big Y and YFull so valuable. Big Y tests most possible Y-DNA mutations and YFull reports the positive SNPs of individuals that upload their results and they report the location of their most distant known ancestor in the direct paternal line. Even groups of academic studies can't do what Big Y and YFull have done for us.

As far as studies of ancient populations the most comprehensive has been The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years by Olalde et al. 2019. They paper and the supplementary data can be downloaded from https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/publications

Unfortunately Olalde et al. 2019 didn't find any J1, only J2, but that is not surprising since J1 is so rare in Iberia, less than 3%, and they tested only 271 ancient specimens.

I just learned something today. J1 is more common than J2 in most areas of the Middle East and the Maghreb but the opposite is true of most of Europe including Spain, Portugal, and Italy. Personally this is somewhat surprising since I figured the Maghreb during the Muslim occupation of Spain and Portugal would have had more of an impact than prior migrations. However, Olalde et al. 2019 only found J and J2 from Muslim burials in Spain. (The DNA of the J specimen I8145 was probably too degraded to get a read on J2.) So maybe there was more Muslim J2 than J1 during the Muslim period. I hope more specimens in ancient Spain, Portugal, and Italy are tested.

RCO
10-27-2019, 10:19 PM
The Eastern side of the Westernmost Europeans: Insights from subclades within Y‐chromosome haplogroup J‐M304
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.23082

konian lusitanum
10-28-2019, 07:45 AM
there is lots of information out there , about the Iberia genetics but because of political implications some of it has been removed from the internet , i got another study that is interesting if i can find it in my documents i will post it

konian lusitanum
10-28-2019, 08:01 AM
, that one is interesting too but is in portuguese

konian lusitanum
10-28-2019, 08:19 AM
i suggest to read CARIMBO GENETIC DOS PORTUGUESE , from Diana Prata , it is a study about the genetic of the Portuguese , its very interesting the official document has been removed from the internet but there is versions of it on yutub

konian lusitanum
11-02-2019, 01:29 AM
y-37 test is on special , 100 usd , good oportunity to discover your haplogroup , we never know , the first test could be misleading it is not the first time, maybe we could belong to j2

ArmandoR1b
11-02-2019, 03:17 AM
y-37 test is on special , 100 usd , good oportunity to discover your haplogroup , we never know , the first test could be misleading it is not the first time, maybe we could belong to j2

The Y37 test only provides a predicted haplogroup. It does not do SNP testing. The predicted haplogroup is normally something far upstream. In your case you would get J-M267 as your predicted haplogroup. If you were to join the J-M267 project then your haplogroup would be in red at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267?iframe=yresults The haplogroups are green when the customer purchases an SNP test and is positive for the SNP.

The Y37 tests STR markers which are used more for genealogical matching but even at 37 markers there can be too many false matches and there is no telling how far back the common ancestor lived. The Y111 is the best for genealogical matching but you will only get a match if other people with the same DNA as you has also had a Y111 test.

The person from Portugal that is also positive for CTS5332 might show up as a match at Y37 so for that reason I think that you should get the Y37 test then if there is a match it might convince you to upgrade to Y111 or Big Y.

konian lusitanum
11-02-2019, 05:26 AM
that guy in that tree is joan carvallo 1435, not a living guy , ya i did order that test too , a wana end my haplogroup search but i don't see any down stream of cts-5332 tha is why i got the super panel clad to get things right i see guys in the forums claiming that they now moved them to other j 1 branchs of tree after sometime passed

konian lusitanum
11-02-2019, 05:38 AM
family tree , is very hard to use , it is more for advanced users not novices , there is there also a American guy cts -5332 and a k wait guy zs4360

ArmandoR1b
11-02-2019, 03:30 PM
that guy in that tree is joan carvallo 1435, not a living guy , ya i did order that test too , a wana end my haplogroup search but i don't see any down stream of cts-5332 tha is why i got the super panel clad to get things right i see guys in the forums claiming that they now moved them to other j 1 branchs of tree after sometime passed

Joao Carvalho, born c. 1435, Portugal is not the person that was tested positive for CTS5332 and for ZS4360. It is a descendant of Joao Carvalho that tested and he is more likely to be living than deceased since Big Y is a test that is not very old. When you order the kit from FTDNA there is a form to fill out that allows you to list your paternal ancestor in the direct paternal line. You can also edit that information on line once you have an account number. That is what the owner of kit 99936 did. You can see the column labeled Paternal Ancestor Name at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/portugal/default.aspx?section=yresults then you can search for Joao Carvalho in that page.


, ya i did order that test too , a wana end my haplogroup search but i don't see any down stream of cts-5332 tha is why i got the super panel clad to get things right i see guys in the forums claiming that they now moved them to other j 1 branchs of tree after sometime passed

When and why were those people moved? What happened to them doesn't mean it is likely to happen to you. The cause needs to be identified and determined if it possibly applies to you or not.

konian lusitanum
11-03-2019, 07:29 AM
ya I'm close to find out if I'm a fennician , trader or a fennician sea captain or a Berber warrior descendant , there is more 2 snips down as you said in that clad cts5332 so i'm close feeling hot

Ruderico
11-03-2019, 03:59 PM
ya I'm close to find out if I'm a fennician , trader or a fennician sea captain or a Berber warrior descendant , there is more 2 snips down as you said in that clad cts5332 so i'm close feeling hot

I fear you may be too ambitious and too specific. Regardless, if you are an ethnic Portuguese plenty of your ancestors were north African, and some were farmers, some traders, some warriors. Just like anyone else's ancestors. You are looking at only one out of the gazillion lineages you have.

konian lusitanum
11-04-2019, 08:04 AM
ya looking to the one that is possible to look , but it seems i'm not the only one everyone is looking at something , i' discover that interest for ancestry recently so i will go far as it takes until i loose the interest for it, it is just a hobby better than go to the pub playing the poker machines .

ArmandoR1b
11-04-2019, 07:34 PM
i' discover that interest for ancestry recently so i will go far as it takes until i loose the interest for it, it is just a hobby better than go to the pub playing the poker machines .

I agree that if everyone put into perspective what they spend on a lot of other things in life and compare the cost of spending money on DNA testing they would find out that DNA tests aren't really as expensive as they seem. The problem with DNA testing is there isn't a way to just spend $5 or $20 at a time and get what Big Y 700 provides.

konian lusitanum
05-09-2020, 03:38 AM
That amigo was very certain about what he was talking indeed that guy there got my clad i just to come here to say thanks and asking if you know ou have any contacts of that person ? THANK YOU

lppt
05-30-2020, 08:32 AM
My ancestors are probably amorites!

According to this:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20458-Filling-Important-Gaps-in-the-Genomic-History-of-Southwest-Asia

Do you guys know if those J1 samples (Z2317) are going to be uploaded to yfull?

konian lusitanum
05-30-2020, 10:01 AM
YOU ARE smitic , your ancestor arrived in Iberia with the Romans ,most probably compare your strs with ones from iberian peninsula project from JOAO DE carvalho a Phoenician descendant dated to 1435, it will tell you 2 options , j wish or Alan , alan str; dys19-15 dys389i-13 dys389ii-29 dys390-22 dys391-10 dys392-11 dys393-13, that is the Alans strs made in a portuguese study of DNA

konian lusitanum
05-30-2020, 10:32 AM
AMORITES , are far back 4000 years , if you know your st rs you can search in Iberian project for guys with test there its a good font to match with your results that Colombian guy must have connections to Iberia too

Ruderico
05-30-2020, 11:24 AM
STR matching isn't as reliable as SNPs, we'll have to wait for sample analysis to know whether they belong to ippt's clade or not. If they do, great, but that still won't tell us how and when it got to Iberia - we can only speculate.
Regardless, his ancestors might have spoken a Semitic language (probably not Jewish as few modern J-Z2317 individuals are, and none in his subclade) at one point thousands of years ago, but that doesn't make him Semitic, he's a Portuguese like any other.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2317/

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkOvU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G&ll=33.80230113690272%2C39.76350413945552&z=6

Kelmendasi
05-30-2020, 12:07 PM
My ancestors are probably amorites!

According to this:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20458-Filling-Important-Gaps-in-the-Genomic-History-of-Southwest-Asia

Do you guys know if those J1 samples (Z2317) are going to be uploaded to yfull?
I wouldn't necessarily say that they were Amorites. J-Z2317 itself is one of the more basal downstreams of Z2331 which itself is believed to have been present among Proto-Semitic speakers, so Z2317 was for sure present among early Semitic-speaking groups. It has downstreams that are spread across populations that speak different languages or dialects of Semitic, for example the downstreams of Y3081 (ZS241) are best associated with those that belong to the Canaanite sub-group of Semitic. So it cannot be linked to a single population.

We need to wait till the BAM files for the samples are released to know for sure what downstream under Z2317 the Amorites of Alalakh belonged to.

konian lusitanum
05-30-2020, 08:50 PM
anyone that speaks about haplogroups in the tree of man kind knows that we talk about the last mutation of our ancestors not of ourselves and that is just clues that we follow not certainty, is like a game

konian lusitanum
05-30-2020, 08:57 PM
i understand your point , when we speak of a single population is just taking account of the time of that single population because most of us know that trough the centuries that been so many populations and civilizations rising in the middle east and so many migrations and invasions along it .

Kelmendasi
06-01-2020, 08:51 PM
Turns out that a sample from the paper on the Bronze Age southern Levant has been confirmed as J1-Z27681 by user Principe https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20461-The-Genomic-History-of-the-Bronze-Age-Southern-Levant/page12:

I3965; Middle Late Bronze Age (1,800-1,700 BCE), Hazor, Israel - J1-Z2331>Z27681

ZS27681 is just upstream of Z27670, so it's a very important discovery in regards to this cluster. This also confirms that ZS27681 was present in the Levant since at least the Bronze Age.

TonyScaletta
06-01-2020, 09:50 PM
Most likely from a jewish or berber ancestor

Kelmendasi
06-01-2020, 10:38 PM
Most likely from a jewish or berber ancestor
J1 in general has very little to do with North Africa. The vast majority of the clusters present in North Africa can be linked to expansions from the Levant or the Arabian Peninsula that likely occurred between the Bronze Age and Middle Ages. As far as I know, there aren't any clusters that you could confidently link to the Berbers.

Johnny ola
06-01-2020, 10:39 PM
J1 in general has very little to do with North Africa. The vast majority of the clusters present in North Africa can be linked to expansions from the Levant or the Arabian Peninsula that likely occurred between the Bronze Age and Middle Ages. As far as I know, there aren't any clusters that you could confidently link to the Berbers.

I am wondering how your clade ended in Albania.You are from a mountain region?

Kelmendasi
06-01-2020, 10:57 PM
I am wondering how your clade ended in Albania.You are from a mountain region?
My paternal side is from a town in northwestern Albania though some family members have claimed more distant origin from the ethnographic region of Malësia e Madhe (Great Highlands) in northwestern Albania and eastern Montenegro, but others have made claims contrary to this. What makes things difficult is the fact that currently no Albanian belongs to my cluster of J1, hopefully this will change with future tests.

As for how my line ended up in Albania or the Balkans, to be honest I have no idea. I personally believe that it likely came during a time frame between the Hellenistic period and Middle Ages from the direction of the Levant, with the earlier periods (Roman?) being more likely since I do not seem to have any noticeable auDNA input from the Levant though auDNA can change in a matter of generations. It was predicted by the admins of the J1 Project that I would belong to Z18271>S12192 which is a typically Jewish cluster usually linked to the Kohanim, this made me believe for a while that I may have had some distant Jewish paternal ancestry. However, recently I ordered the Z18271 SNP test from YSEQ and tested negative for this cluster, interestingly I also turned out to be negative for ZS222 which is just upstream of Z18271. So the prediction was incorrect. I have ordered Big Y, so it's only a matter of time till we see what cluster I actually belong to.

Johnny ola
06-01-2020, 11:07 PM
My paternal side is from a town in northwestern Albania though some family members have claimed more distant origin from the ethnographic region of Malësia e Madhe (Great Highlands) in northwestern Albania and eastern Montenegro, but others have made claims contrary to this. What makes things difficult is the fact that currently no Albanian belongs to my cluster of J1, hopefully this will change with future tests.

As for how my line ended up in Albania or the Balkans, to be honest I have no idea. I personally believe that it likely came during a time frame between the Hellenistic period and Middle Ages from the direction of the Levant, with the earlier periods (Roman?) being more likely since I do not seem to have any noticeable auDNA input from the Levant though auDNA can change in a matter of generations. It was predicted by the admins of the J1 Project that I would belong to Z18271>S12192 which is a typically Jewish cluster usually linked to the Kohanim, this made me believe for a while that I may have had some distant Jewish paternal ancestry. However, recently I ordered the Z18271 SNP test from YSEQ and tested negative for this cluster, interestingly I also turned out to be negative for ZS222 which is just upstream of Z18271. So the prediction was incorrect. I have ordered Big Y, so it's only a matter of time till we see what cluster I actually belong to.

Hmm interesting.I will agree with you about Hellenistic ages but i would suggest also the Roman-Byzantium ages.Albanians were under the Byzantium Empire..and as you know well, this empire was a mess.

Kelmendasi
06-01-2020, 11:20 PM
Hmm interesting.I will agree with you about Hellenistic ages but i would suggest also the Roman-Byzantium ages.Albanians were under the Byzantium Empire..and as you know well, this empire was a mess.
Yes, currently I am leaning more towards the Roman or later Byzantine periods. Sample R85 from the 2019 paper on Rome did turn out to be J-Y3081 (technically pre-Y3081) so we know that this lineage was present in the Italian Peninsula since Antiquity (sample is dated between 27 BCE and 300 CE), potentially strengthening a Roman origin.

There is also Y3081>BY143137 which I see has been linked to the Phoenicians and is currently found in Italy, Portugal, Brazil and Kuwait. I personally doubt I belong to this group since I do not match any BY143137+ individual, closely at least. As a matter of fact, I currently have no close matches.

Trojet
06-01-2020, 11:21 PM
My paternal side is from a town in northwestern Albania though some family members have claimed more distant origin from the ethnographic region of Malësia e Madhe (Great Highlands) in northwestern Albania and eastern Montenegro, but others have made claims contrary to this. What makes things difficult is the fact that currently no Albanian belongs to my cluster of J1, hopefully this will change with future tests.

As for how my line ended up in Albania or the Balkans, to be honest I have no idea. I personally believe that it likely came during a time frame between the Hellenistic period and Middle Ages from the direction of the Levant, with the earlier periods (Roman?) being more likely since I do not seem to have any noticeable auDNA input from the Levant though auDNA can change in a matter of generations. It was predicted by the admins of the J1 Project that I would belong to Z18271>S12192 which is a typically Jewish cluster usually linked to the Kohanim, this made me believe for a while that I may have had some distant Jewish paternal ancestry. However, recently I ordered the Z18271 SNP test from YSEQ and tested negative for this cluster, interestingly I also turned out to be negative for ZS222 which is just upstream of Z18271. So the prediction was incorrect. I have ordered Big Y, so it's only a matter of time till we see what cluster I actually belong to.

It's great that you're taking deeper tests. I think the ZS222- result increases the likelihood that your lineage is not "recent" in the region. And we turned out correct about not classifying you any deeper than ZS241 ;)

Kelmendasi
06-01-2020, 11:28 PM
It's great that you're taking deeper tests. I think the ZS222- result increases the likelihood that your lineage is not "recent" in the region. And we turned out correct about not classifying you any deeper than ZS241 ;)
Yeah, turns out that you guys were correct in regards to the classification :D.

Hopefully the Big Y doesn't take too long, although I have heard that they do seem to take a couple months at least.

Ignis90
06-02-2020, 08:52 AM
J1 in general has very little to do with North Africa. The vast majority of the clusters present in North Africa can be linked to expansions from the Levant or the Arabian Peninsula that likely occurred between the Bronze Age and Middle Ages. As far as I know, there aren't any clusters that you could confidently link to the Berbers.

While it's true there is for now no J1 that is linked to Berbers specifically, I don't think we can talk about modern "Berbers" before the onset of the Iron Age as all modern Berbers have Bronze Age [yamnaya - like] European ancestry for instance (lacking in Chalcolithic North Africans from Iberia and Sardinia). So an introduction of some J1 during the Bronze Age in what would become Berbers is not impossible, even though it's less likely than in Egypt.
Might explain the West-East increasing gradient of Iran_N - like ancestry in North Africa, if it's not all due to historical (Phoenician, Arabian) migrations.

TonyScaletta
06-02-2020, 09:47 AM
J1 in general has very little to do with North Africa. The vast majority of the clusters present in North Africa can be linked to expansions from the Levant or the Arabian Peninsula that likely occurred between the Bronze Age and Middle Ages. As far as I know, there aren't any clusters that you could confidently link to the Berbers.

lol I'm north african with J1-M267 (phoenicians and especially arabs never really were numerous in Iberia)

Kelmendasi
06-02-2020, 10:06 AM
lol I'm north african with J1-M267 (phoenicians and especially arabs never really were numerous in Iberia)
Sure, J1 clusters are present in North Africa. My point was that you cannot link the majority of the J1 clusters in the Iberian Peninsula to a migration from North Africa as for this to be true, we should see common ancestry and matches between the Iberian samples and North African samples that should date back to the Middle Ages or around that period, as it is in this time period where there was a major expansion from this area of Africa into the peninsula. This isn't the case however.

The Phoenicians did in fact have a number of ports and settlements along the Iberian coast, and so did the later Punics (Carthaginians) who were just an off-shoot of the Tyrians. They didn't necessarily need to be in massive numbers to leave a genetic impact.

TonyScaletta
06-02-2020, 10:44 AM
Sure, J1 clusters are present in North Africa. My point was that you cannot link the majority of the J1 clusters in the Iberian Peninsula to a migration from North Africa as for this to be true, we should see common ancestry and matches between the Iberian samples and North African samples that should date back to the Middle Ages or around that period, as it is in this time period where there was a major expansion from this area of Africa into the peninsula. This isn't the case however.

The Phoenicians did in fact have a number of ports and settlements along the Iberian coast, and so did the later Punics (Carthaginians) who were just an off-shoot of the Tyrians. They didn't necessarily need to be in massive numbers to leave a genetic impact.

Statistically speaking there is simply more chance that it came from a berber ancestor. There is at the moment no studies that supports the theory of massive arab or phoenician presence and no carthaginians were not simply an off-shoot of tyrians and especially not at the time of Barcids and their conquest of Iberia. Most of them were punicized berbers (let alone their army mainly composed of berbers).

We should also add this :


These results demonstrate that by the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24).

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230


I'm quite suprised that people here overestimate the arab/phoenician presence. Many north africans carry the J1-M267 there is nothing to be surprised here and even the jewish hypothesis is more credible.

Kelmendasi
06-02-2020, 11:05 AM
Statistically speaking there is simply more chance that it came from a berber ancestor. There is at the moment no studies that supports the theory of massive arab or phoenician presence and no carthaginians were not simply an off-shoot of tyrians and especially not at the time of Barcids and their conquest of Iberia. Most of them were punicized berbers (let alone their army mainly composed of berbers).

We should also add this :



https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230


I'm quite suprised that people here overestimate the arab/phoenician presence. Many north africans carry the J1-M267 there is nothing to be surprised here and even the jewish hypothesis is more credible.
You would have to provide evidence suggesting that most of the J1 clusters are a result of an expansion from North Africa. As I said previously, you can find more connections between the J1 found in the Levant than with the J1 found in North Africa. As for the Carthaginians, in terms of culture and identity they were essentially off-shoots of the Tyrians, a group which without a doubt left a genetic impact. But I do acknowledge that they did assimilate locals.

In regards to the Phoenicians, they also had J1 at a significant percentage. 4 out of 7 of the Iron Age samples from Beirut turned out to be J1, so the claim that only J2 can be associated with the Phoenician expansion is inaccurate.

The majority of North African J1 comes under FGC11>FGC12, so they are bound to be of Arab origin for the most part.

TonyScaletta
06-02-2020, 11:29 AM
You would have to provide evidence suggesting that most of the J1 clusters are a result of an expansion from North Africa. As I said previously, you can find more connections between the J1 found in the Levant than with the J1 found in North Africa. As for the Carthaginians, in terms of culture and identity they were essentially off-shoots of the Tyrians, a group which without a doubt left a genetic impact. But I do acknowledge that they did assimilate locals.

In regards to the Phoenicians, they also had J1 at a significant percentage. 4 out of 7 of the Iron Age samples from Beirut turned out to be J1, so the claim that only J2 can be associated with the Phoenician expansion is inaccurate.

The majority of North African J1 comes under FGC11>FGC12, so they are bound to be of Arab origin for the most part.

In the case of the OP it can easily be from a berber ancestor and as for most J1 in Iberia (and their link with the levant) it can be from jewish ancestors.

Saying carthaginians are off-shoots of the tyrians because of their culture is like saying most north africans today are off-shoots of saudis/yemenites.

let's make it simple :


All six individuals from the Punic Villamar site were inferred to have substantial levels of ancient North-African ancestry (point estimates ranging 20–35%, Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE and PCA results, Figs. 2 and 4). When fit with the same five-way admixture model, present-day Sardinians have a small but detectable level of North-African ancestry (Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE analysis, Fig. 4).


Beyond our focal interest in Sardinia, the results from individuals from the Phoenician-Punic sites Monte Sirai and Villamar shed some light on the ancestry of a historically impactful Mediterranean population. Notably, they show strong genetic relationships to ancient North-African and eastern Mediterranean sources. These results mirror other emerging ancient DNA studies37,58, and are not unexpected given that the Punic center of Carthage on the North-African coast itself has roots in the eastern Mediterranean. Interestingly, the Monte Sirai individuals, predating the Villamar individuals by several centuries, show less North-African ancestry. This could be because they harbor earlier Phoenician ancestry and North-African admixture may have been unique to the later Punic context

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6#Sec2


In the southeast, we recovered genomic data from 45 individuals dated between the 3rd and 16th centuries CE. All analyzed individuals fell outside the genetic variation of preceding Iberian Iron Age populations (Fig. 1, C and D, and fig. S3) and harbored ancestry from both Southern European and North African populations (Fig. 2D), as well as additional Levantine-related ancestry that could potentially reflect ancestry from Jewish groups (21). These results demonstrate that by the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24). Gene flow from North Africa continued into the Muslim period, as is clear from Muslim burials with elevated North African and sub-Saharan African ancestry (Fig. 2D, fig. S4, and table S22) and from uniparental markers typical of North Africa not present among pre-Islamic individuals (Fig. 2D and fig. S11). Present-day populations from southern Iberia harbor less North African ancestry (25) than the ancient Muslim burials, plausibly reflecting expulsion of moriscos (former Muslims converted to Christianity) and repopulation from the north, as supported by historical sources and genetic analysis of present-day groups (25). The impact of Muslim rule is also evident in northeast Iberia in seven individuals from Sant Julià de Ramis from the 8th to 12th centuries CE who, unlike previous ancient individuals from the same region, show North African–related ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S19) and a complete overlap in PCA with present-day Iberians (Fig. 1D).

https://i.imgur.com/YpRzmNX.jpg


again there is nothing to support the phoenician/arab massive presence that's why I said It's more likely from a berber or jewish ancestor (I'm myself j1-M267 and my subclade is originally from Yemen but it doesn't mean my children will get it from an arab)

RCO
06-02-2020, 01:51 PM
As I wrote before in this thread #4, just follow the data, find the matches, observe the structures. J1 is quite identitarian and we can understand the geographical and geopolitical movements and now we are starting the construction of the Historical Atlas of ancient J1 cases and we can recognize possible affiliations.

konian lusitanum
06-04-2020, 10:00 AM
speaking of Phoenicians ? i did hear that and i show up here i am a phoenician descendant from my paternal side i'm j1 too

konian lusitanum
06-04-2020, 10:11 AM
think twice about that statement, the lusitanians did interacted with the Phoenicians and later on with the punics they even got a leader before Viriato with the name punicus i just did my y700 and my results are in yfull tree that i can trace based in some scientific studies that my clad belongs to that seafarers of BILBO

lppt
06-25-2020, 07:16 PM
Turns out that a sample from the paper on the Bronze Age southern Levant has been confirmed as J1-Z27681 by user Principe https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20461-The-Genomic-History-of-the-Bronze-Age-Southern-Levant/page12:

I3965; Middle Late Bronze Age (1,800-1,700 BCE), Hazor, Israel - J1-Z2331>Z27681

ZS27681 is just upstream of Z27670, so it's a very important discovery in regards to this cluster. This also confirms that ZS27681 was present in the Levant since at least the Bronze Age.

Looking at Yfull, my Z27681 mutation happened 6215 years ago! way before that one. It means that my lineage is older, correct? same thing for the Z27682 mutation (older than any on that cluster). Im seeing this right?

Ruderico
06-26-2020, 06:28 AM
Looking at Yfull, my Z27681 mutation happened 6215 years ago! way before that one. It means that my lineage is older, correct? same thing for the Z27682 mutation (older than any on that cluster). Im seeing this right?

Z27681 has a TMRCA of 5600 years, both these Amorites and yourself have it and thus share that patrilinear ancestor.
Downstream of that we only know your terminal clade, Z27670, which developed a long time after the Amorites as a culture existed and seems very clearly Iberian (so far, at least). Whether these Amorites are your ancestors or not can't be known with 100% certainty, it's a strong possibility, but it's also possible that somewhen between 5600 and 4100 years ago Z27681 split into two different clades, one ancestral to your Z27670, and another ancestral to theirs. We'll need more Z27681 men to upload their data into yfull in order to find what clades exist in that gap between Z27681 and Z27670

Kelmendasi
06-26-2020, 10:53 AM
Looking at Yfull, my Z27681 mutation happened 6215 years ago! way before that one. It means that my lineage is older, correct? same thing for the Z27682 mutation (older than any on that cluster). Im seeing this right?
It doesn't necessarily mean that your lineage is older, it just means that the cluster carried by this Bronze Age Canaanite from Israel and yours diverged from Z27681 sometime 5,600ybp.

The presence of this cluster in this region of the Levant during the Bronze Age however may potentially indicate where your distant paternal ancestors came from.

Kelmendasi
06-26-2020, 11:03 AM
Z27681 has a TMRCA of 5600 years, both these Amorites and yourself have it and thus share that patrilinear ancestor.
Downstream of that we only know your terminal clade, Z27670, which developed a long time after the Amorites as a culture existed and seems very clearly Iberian (so far, at least). Whether these Amorites are your ancestors or not can't be known with 100% certainty, it's a strong possibility, but it's also possible that somewhen between 5600 and 4100 years ago Z27681 split into two different clades, one ancestral to your Z27670, and another ancestral to theirs. We'll need more Z27681 men to upload their data into yfull in order to find what clades exist in that gap between Z27681 and Z27670
As far as I am aware, the J-Z27681 sample from Bronze Age Israel wasn't an Amorite. The site that he was excavated from, Hazor, belongs to the Galilee region of northern Israel. This region is rather obscure in terms of what Canaanite group inhabited the region, most assume that it wasn't originally inhabited by the Israelites.

However, five J-P58+ Amorite samples have been discovered from the Alalakh archaeological site of southern Turkey; 1 was J-Z1884, 1 was J-MF35937, and 3 were J-Z2317*.

lppt
06-26-2020, 11:24 PM
Thank you both! Do you guys think theres any chance of that sample (Z27681) and others (those Z2317*) to be uploaded to yfull?

Iyyovi
06-28-2020, 06:26 AM
As I wrote before in this thread #4, just follow the data, find the matches, observe the structures. J1 is quite identitarian and we can understand the geographical and geopolitical movements and now we are starting the construction of the Historical Atlas of ancient J1 cases and we can recognize possible affiliations.

A historical J1 atlas would be a great help in discussing cases such as the one in this thread. Will it be based on Roberto Raciti's map or is this a completely new effort?

RCO
06-28-2020, 05:06 PM
Yes, Raciti's map is a good example

Agamemnon
06-28-2020, 05:56 PM
As far as I am aware, the J-Z27681 sample from Bronze Age Israel wasn't an Amorite. The site that he was excavated from, Hazor, belongs to the Galilee region of northern Israel. This region is rather obscure in terms of what Canaanite group inhabited the region, most assume that it wasn't originally inhabited by the Israelites.

However, five J-P58+ Amorite samples have been discovered from the Alalakh archaeological site of southern Turkey; 1 was J-Z1884, 1 was J-MF35937, and 3 were J-Z2317*.

Hazor is an extremely important site, possibly the most important Middle-Late Bronze Age site in the Southern Levant, in terms of sheer size it certainly was the largest urban area by that time covering a surface of 80-100 hectares (approximately 110 to 140 football fields), compare this with Ebla (roughly 60 hectares so ~80 football fields) and Ugarit (25 hectares so about 35 football fields) to get an idea of how immense this city was for its time, it was more than three times the size of Ugarit and just as large as the contemporary Memphis (which was the capital of Egypt under the 19th dynasty).

This site is so massive that many archeologists (including its current excavators) suspect that a large archive will eventually be uncovered there, as would befit a city of this size. The presence of several Akkadian-language tablets scattered around the city dated to different periods certainly lends credence to this idea, if such an archive is ever found it shall radically revolutionise our understanding of Bronze Age Canaan.

Hazor stands out for three other reasons.


There are at least four phonological innovations characterising Proto-Canaanite, of these the shift of PS */ā/ > PC */ō/ more commonly known as the "Canaanite vowel shift (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_shift)" is the feature that is the most easily identifiable as the other innovations are unlikely to show up considering the defective spelling of the cuneiform and more importantly the hieroglyphic systems. The earliest evidence for the existence of this vowel shift comes from the name of Hazor itself which is transcribed as ha-ṣú-ra in the Mari archives during the 16th century BCE, from this moment on the shift is generalised in the epigraphic record (mostly Egyptian transcriptions of Canaanite toponyms and personal names), strongly suggesting that the Canaanite vowel shift developed between 1800 BCE and 1500 BCE and therefore that Proto-Canaanite was spoken during the MB IIB-C and LBI periods. In other words, Hazor is the earliest place to which we can apply the Canaanite label in a purely linguistic sense.


Hazor had a very peculiar relationship with Egypt. We learn from the Amarna letters that the ruler of Hazor was the only vassal of Egypt who referred to himself as "king", unlike the very hierarchical relationship between Egypt's New Kingdom and its other Canaanite vassals the relationship seems to have been on more equal terms. Hazor had large territorial ambitions and ruled over other cities, often conquered from other Egyptian vassals:

https://i.imgur.com/69nolSi.png

It is also likely that several Egyptian military interventions had the goal of keeping Hazor within the New Kingdom's sphere of influence, after all Hazor stood at the confluence of several important trade routes that were vital to Egypt's interests:

https://i.imgur.com/3c5L0Ab.png

Hazor also was the southernmost city within the Northern Syro-Mesopotamian or Amorite cultural sphere, the fact that it was within the southern periphery of this sphere put it in direct contact with the more firmly Canaanite cultural sphere (more on that below):

https://i.imgur.com/gD9vjXU.png


The city was destroyed some time during the 13th century BCE. The obvious culprits here are the Israelites, or a group directly ancestral to them (the earliest Israelites are likely to have originated in the Northern-Central parts of Southern Canaan), as they are the only ones to have claimed the deed. The Book of Joshua also contains a very vivid memory of the place, which it describes as the "head" of the Canaanite kingdoms, this is very likely to be a genuine recollection of Hazor's important status.


As you can see, Hazor was part of an Amorite cultural sphere. And as we have just seen, it is the earliest Canaanite city we know of (at least in the linguistic sense). Isn't that a contradiction you might ask? Well, not necessarily. Hazor during the MB IIB-C had what some have called the "Amorite cultural assemblage", it was not alone in this, at least two other cities in Southern Canaan (Megiddo and Shechem) had this Amorite cultural assemblage:

https://i.imgur.com/DQqTGPl.png

Notice that Alalakh also displayed this typically Amorite material culture (one of its hallmarks is the "migdal" or "tower" temple), I would surmise that the presence of MF35937 (a branch of FGC4745) strongly suggests a spread of basal branches of Z2317 (especially xL858) with the Amorites. The Canaanites themselves might have been descended from the Southern Amorites, as it is clear that the inhabitants of Ugarit were also originally Amorites (Ugaritic might be a Western Amorite dialect). So the extent to which Amorites can be distinguished from the earliest Canaanites is unclear. It is quite plausible that Z27681 will eventually show up in Amorite samples, though considering the pattern of sharp local substructure we're seeing I'd say that this branch probably originated in the Kinneret region. All of this counts for your (and therefore my) branch as well, as it was found in a MBA individual from Megiddo (dated 1971-1782 calBCE), yet another important site for a host of different reasons (Megiddo had one of the largest, if not the largest, temples during the Early Bronze Age for example).

Shamash
06-30-2020, 04:26 PM
Notice that Alalakh also displayed this typically Amorite material culture (one of its hallmarks is the "migdal" or "tower" temple), I would surmise that the presence of MF35937 (a branch of FGC4745) strongly suggests a spread of basal branches of Z2317 (especially xL858) with the Amorites. The Canaanites themselves might have been descended from the Southern Amorites, as it is clear that the inhabitants of Ugarit were also originally Amorites (Ugaritic might be a Western Amorite dialect). So the extent to which Amorites can be distinguished from the earliest Canaanites is unclear. It is quite plausible that Z27681 will eventually show up in Amorite samples, though considering the pattern of sharp local substructure we're seeing I'd say that this branch probably originated in the Kinneret region. All of this counts for your (and therefore my) branch as well, as it was found in a MBA individual from Megiddo (dated 1971-1782 calBCE), yet another important site for a host of different reasons (Megiddo had one of the largest, if not the largest, temples during the Early Bronze Age for example).

So could we say that the Amorites are the ancestors of the Canaanites, the Aramaeans and the Arabs?

That's what Albert F. Naccache wrote in 1995 in The Empire of the Amorites revisited:

"At the start of the “Formative Period” it is as if we could see three “ethnic”
super-groups emerging from the “Amoritic” nebulae that characterized the previous
period. We could provisionally designate these super-groups as the “Arameans”, the
“Cananeans” and the “Arabs” (including all their various kingdoms and/or emirates)".

Since J-L858 lineages are present in all three groups this seems now a highly likely scenario.

Lupriac
07-02-2020, 05:49 PM
Aramaeans and Amorites seem to have a mysterious relation. Too bad there's a shortage of Amorite tablets, the early ones were semi-nomads for the most part and the ones who invaded Mesopotamia seem to have adopted the native Sumero-Akkadian culture, language and customs instead of latching on to their own. If I'm not mistaken Amorites also settled in cities with Canaanites, and I'm guessing it's safe to say the differences in the genetics of the Semitic groups (Canaanites, Amorites, Aramaeans, proto-East Semites) were virtually null. I believe this is accurate for both autosomal and uniparental lineages.
Proposing Arabs as descendants of Amorites sounds strange though. I might be misunderstanding the whole statement or what it aims to convey. The split between Arabic and Amorite & Aramaic (Northwest Semitic) seems to suggest such a relation as anachronistic though.

Shamash
07-02-2020, 07:18 PM
deleted

Shamash
07-02-2020, 07:28 PM
Proposing Arabs as descendants of Amorites sounds strange though. I might be misunderstanding the whole statement or what it aims to convey. The split between Arabic and Amorite & Aramaic (Northwest Semitic) seems to suggest such a relation as anachronistic though.

No, it's not ananchronistic as J1-FGC11 (which happens to be one of the most important y-DNA markers in the Arabian Peninsula) made it's first appearance in Bronze Age Sidon (a Canaanite site). And again I have to object that genetics and linguistics don't always follow the same pedigree. Bytheway the homeland of Proto-Arabic tribes is not so far away from where the Amorites settled (west of the Euphrates river encompassing the Hauran desert and even parts of North Western Saudi Arabia).

Agamemnon
07-02-2020, 09:43 PM
So could we say that the Amorites are the ancestors of the Canaanites, the Aramaeans and the Arabs?

That's what Albert F. Naccache wrote in 1995 in The Empire of the Amorites revisited:

"At the start of the “Formative Period” it is as if we could see three “ethnic”
super-groups emerging from the “Amoritic” nebulae that characterized the previous
period. We could provisionally designate these super-groups as the “Arameans”, the
“Cananeans” and the “Arabs” (including all their various kingdoms and/or emirates)".

Since J-L858 lineages are present in all three groups this seems now a highly likely scenario.

I honestly see no good reason to view the Proto-Arabs as descendants of the Amorites. The linguistic fragments subsumed under the Amorite label are attested starting from the second half of the 3rd millennium BCE, this period is when Central Semitic unity came to an end (Central Semitic by itself probably was a dialect chain, much like NW Semitic during the first half of the 2nd millennium). The only thing that really unites these fragments (which often come in the form of personal names that invariably happen to include verbal forms) is the fact that they all underwent the major innovations which characterise Northwest Semitic, namely the word initial shift of PCS */w/ to PNWS */y/ (as in "to give birth": Akk. https://i.imgur.com/q4cjDpN.png walādum, Arabic وَلَدَ walada vs Ugr. https://i.imgur.com/BT37mxw.png *yalada, Hb. ילד yalad), ˀa prefixed to PCS 1st ps. pl. *niḥnu and a-insertion in qvtl nouns:

https://i.imgur.com/2ps4fab.png

Because of this, it is reasonable to assume that the EBA Amorites and the PNWS speakers are actually one and the same group, we can tie them to later Ugaritians, Canaanites and Arameans (via the "Aḫlamū") with a fairly high degree of confidence thanks to linguistic and material clues throughout the epigraphic and archeological record during the 2nd millennium. So while the Amorites we know from Akkadian, Eblaite and even Sumerian sources were mainly centered on the Syrian steppe and the Middle Euphrates valley, it is likely there were Amorites groups living further south.

As you can see however, Arabic did not partake in these innovations, and yet as you have correctly pointed out Proto-Arabic emerged in the Harrat esh-Shamah desert and its immediate surroundings in the eastern Levant, in an area that roughly corresponds to the distribution of Safaitic inscriptions:

https://i.imgur.com/RdSPSi1.png

Likewise, FGC11 was found in a MBA Canaanite from Sidon. So does that not mean that the earliest Arabs were of Amorite descent as well? Unfortunately, things might not be as simple, as I said the linguistic data does not favour such a scenario to begin with. On the other hand, it is likely that the pre-Proto-Arabs were in contact first with the Canaanites, and with the Amorites before that. And while the Proto-Arabs probably weren't descended from the Amorites, we are certainly underestimating the range of Amorite settlement and I for one would argue that the existence of Ancient North Arabian languages which seem to have undergone the classic NW Semitic innovations (such as Taymanitic) strengthens the possibility of an assimilation or incorporation of southern Amorite groups into the earliest Arab tribes (this might even be related to the ˁarab bāˀida or "perished Arabs" of traditional Arabic historiography). This would explain why branches which we know are broadly NW Semitic (from the ancient data) such as YSC76, ZS241 and FGC4745 have Arabic subclades. Some FGC11 might also have been present among early NWS-speaking groups, though I would not bet on any extant branches being found in Canaanites or Arameans for instance, it's painfully clear that FGC11 was the main force behind the introduction of Central Semitic speech to the Arabian peninsula (in the form of Epigraphic South Arabian with FGC3723 and Arabic proper with FGC1723), a set of migrations that were clearly unrelated to the Amorites.

lppt
07-05-2020, 11:59 PM
According to Yfull I shared with a guy from Colombia the same ancestor 1700 years ago (around the third century). I have talked to him and he knows that his paternal line have been in the Dominican Republic since the early 1800. Jews have been in Spain since the third century (according to my research) and him having the surname "Pérez" is a reason for me to believe that that ancestor lived there. My theory is that after the expulsion from Spain (1492), our ancestor went to Portugal and while my line stayed there and probably changed surnames, his went to the Dominican Republic.


Looking at J1 FTDNA project, everyone in our cluster is in South America (except for me).

Every surname there looks jewish ("Pérez" probably a variant from Peretz, "Barreto" that used to be "de Moraes" and "Espinosa").

Theres also some that have not done the FTDNA BIG Y and looking at the project map the surnames samples are probably jewish surnames as well ("Ladino", "Rinaldi", "Barton", "Scharf" and "Santos").

"Santos" is in Azores (another place to where jews fled after the expulsion from Portugal) and to him, everything is a mystery as well.

Theres also a match with the surname "Rocha" that used to be "Lopes".

It seems that everyone was changing surnames back then! Were they afraid of something? It seems so.

It seems, at least for now, that my ancestors were probably the first jews to get here!



Will dig some more!

RCO
07-06-2020, 12:13 AM
Almost all Portuguese surnames were used by the Nobility, Farmers, Peasants, Labourers, Jews, Africans, Amerindians, Romani people, surnames were democratic and adopted by everybody and so only a good genealogical investigation can find more about distant origins. J1- Jews and Arabs can have some distinct clusters easily recognizable. As your branch formed 5600 ybp, TMRCA 1700 ybp you have several possibilities in the connection from the East to the West.

lppt
07-06-2020, 12:27 AM
RCO, Pérez is probably a variant from the jewish Peretz. Ladino is 99% jewish (judeo-spanish language). Espinosa is also a jewish (sephardic) surname (according to the Holy Office of the Catholic Church of Spain).

I think you get the point!

Also, why the surname changes then if not to hide something?

Ruderico
07-06-2020, 05:53 AM
RCO, Pérez is probably a variant from the jewish Peretz. Ladino is 99% jewish (judeo-spanish language). Espinosa is also a jewish (sephardic) surname (according to the Holy Office of the Catholic Church of Spain).

I think you get the point!

Also, why the surname changes then if not to hide something?

Perez/Pires simply means 'son of Pedro' it is not a Jewish surname. In the past surnames were of little importance unless you were wealthy or from a respectable family, family lines changed surnames all the time. You even have cases of the same person appearing with different surnames on different documents

rzak
07-06-2020, 05:37 PM
As far as I know, Pires in Portuguese means (tea/coffee) saucer.
But you are right it means son of Pedro or Pêro

Ruderico
07-11-2020, 01:05 PM
As far as I know, Pires in Portuguese means (tea/coffee) saucer.
But you are right it means son of Pedro or Pêro

Yes, 'pires' does mean just that, but the surname has a different origin, it's a patronymic, something that's extremely common in Iberia.
The original spelling of the name was 'Peres' in Portuguese because it came from the spelling 'Pero' (from Pero + es, like Rodrigo + es = Rodrigues, Fernando + es = Fernandes, or Álvaro + es = Álvares currently as Alves) which as you say was a mere variation of 'Pedro'. The famous explorer Pedro Álvares Cabral was also registered as Pero Álvares Cabral and Pedr'Álvares Cabral. Pero Vaz de Caminha was another famous one.

Just for curiosity Pero/Pedro was commonly shortened to pº and Peres/Pires to Piz - this trend was also applied to other names, Gonçalo = gº, Rodrigues = Riz/Roiz


Edit: 'pires', the object, didn't exist until the colonial period when the word was brought from SE Asia

lppt
10-30-2020, 03:29 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z27682/

Another kit uploaded to Yfull. The sample is from the United Arab Emirates but as I see it, our lineages splitted a long time ago.

tibussio
10-31-2020, 03:33 AM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z27682/

Another kit uploaded to Yfull. The sample is from the United Arab Emirates but as I see it, our lineages splitted a long time ago.

another son of the hittite hurrians be proud of it

lppt
11-04-2020, 12:22 PM
One more kit uploaded this time from Yemen.

Our lineages seem quite old. I think we need to wait for Yfull to update the estimates.

Those kits from Chechnya and the one from Yemen that Yfull identifies as Z27682* are both J1 BY78446 according to FTDNA. With this in mind, our common ancestor could be from Iran, maybe?

What do you guys think?

lppt
12-13-2020, 11:18 AM
The sample from Yemen was deleted. What happened? I cant find it on the J1 tree anymore.

lppt
12-19-2020, 09:47 AM
Yfull just got updated. My TMRCA is no longer 1700ybp but 1400. So, jews or muslims? If the guy from Russia and the one from China are muslims today, my ancestors were probably muslims in the past. Only time will tell I guess.

maroco
12-19-2020, 11:02 AM
Yfull just got updated. My TMRCA is no longer 1700ybp but 1400. So, jews or muslims? If the guy from Russia and the one from China are muslims today, my ancestors were probably muslims in the past. Only time will tell I guess.
I’m fairly certain that your lineage is from Muslims.

levantino II
12-19-2020, 12:50 PM
Yfull just got updated. My TMRCA is no longer 1700ybp but 1400. So, jews or muslims? If the guy from Russia and the one from China are muslims today, my ancestors were probably muslims in the past. Only time will tell I guess.

I think they have some problems. They radically change times estimations for PF7263/ZS4416. Best thing is wait a little to see if changes will be permanent or not

lppt
12-21-2020, 11:29 AM
I think they have some problems. They radically change times estimations for PF7263/ZS4416. Best thing is wait a little to see if changes will be permanent or not

"• An important message •

We were looking forward to the new version of the YTree, but unfortunately, many ages in this release of the YTree are incorrect due to an error during the update. Since we are continually improving our algorithms, it is difficult to avoid mistakes completely. Now we have localized the problem and will be fixing it. It was the largest release in terms of the number of added subclades and new SNPs, and the number of added ancient samples was over 400! These facts also influenced the time taken to prepare the YTree release recalculation. We expect the release of the revised version of the YTree within 10-15 days. Thank you for your patience and your support. We hope for your understanding.

Best regards, YFull Team

12.21.2020"

I guess you are right!

lppt
01-24-2021, 09:34 AM
Its all back to normal now. TMRCA again at 1700 ybp. The sample from Yemen was deleted because the guy probably did not paid Yfull for it. Its still in the FTDNA haplotree.

Checking the live tree at Yfull, my haplogroup branched out from the J-FT390859 branch.

Theres a J-FT390859* sample from UAE. Is it too far fetched to think that my ancestor was from that area? The Portuguese empire held Hormuz for more than a century!

I know that the timing is not right but that could be only a matter of time untill more samples appear.

Also, the samples from Chechnya and China are from muslim men. That Yemen one should be as well.

When googling about the Portuguese empire and Hormuz you will find out about the Persian-Portuguese war (1507-1622) and googling about that will lead you to the Safavid empire.

Could my ancestor be iranian?!

That would explain a lot (lack of matches and islam).

Finally, my FTDNA ancestry got updated. 97.6% European, 1.2% Sephardic and 1.2% north African. I never got jewish admixture before but at the same time, its not much. Could this be food for thought?

lppt
02-15-2021, 04:42 AM
I got some news. I exchanged a few emails with professor Anatole Klyosov and according to him, my lineage is definitely not jewish, at least genealogically speaking.

Yfull updated yet again their estimates. My lineage is now 1715 years old (306 AD).

Taking everything into account, my guess is that my ancestor probably arrived here with the Roman Empire.

Where was he from? Anybody's guess at this point.

Ruderico
02-15-2021, 09:20 AM
I got some news. I exchanged a few emails with professor Anatole Klyosov and according to him, my lineage is definitely not jewish, at least genealogically speaking.

Yfull updated yet again their estimates. My lineage is now 1715 years old (304 AD).

Taking everything into account, my guess is that my ancestor probably arrived here with the Roman Empire.

Where was he from? Anybody's guess at this point.

Keep in mind ybp is standardized as counting from 1950.

lppt
02-15-2021, 09:46 AM
Ruderico I never heard of that! So my lineage is 1786 years old! Here since 235 AD then.

Coincidence or not this coincides with the crisis of the third century. A period in which the Roman Empire nearly collapsed. Maybe my ancestor was a roman legionary and ended up by staying in Iberia.

Cabaon
02-21-2021, 07:35 PM
Ruderico I never heard of that! So my lineage is 1786 years old! Here since 235 AD then.

Coincidence or not this coincides with the crisis of the third century. A period in which the Roman Empire nearly collapsed. Maybe my ancestor was a roman legionary and ended up by staying in Iberia.


Most likely from a north african ancestor and are you from Algarve ?

lppt
02-21-2021, 09:46 PM
Most likely from a north african ancestor and are you from Algarve ?

I'm from central Portugal. I've got one portuguese match and he has ties to the north of the country.

An african ancestor is very unlikely (but not impossible I guess). You can read "From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome perspective". All the J1 cases in north Africa are all within the L222 haplogroup. Mine split way before that!

Cabaon
02-21-2021, 11:46 PM
I'm from central Portugal. I've got one portuguese match and he has ties to the north of the country.

An african ancestor is very unlikely (but not impossible I guess). You can read "From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome perspective". All the J1 cases in north Africa are all within the L222 haplogroup. Mine split way before that!

Well I'm under J1-M267 myself and I'm moroccan. And southern portugal used to interacts a lot with north africa during the roman era :


The comparison - possible - with African epigraphic monuments (the inscription between two columns, the profusion of rosettes ...); the uniqueness of this decoration vis-à-vis other monuments known from Roman Lusitania; and the intense relations (economic, cultural ...) of the people of the Algarve coast with the African Mediterranean coasts, in Roman times and even before, rather require the adoption of the second hypothesis.

La persistance esthétique africaine dans la décoration des monuments épigraphiques romains de l’Algarve, José d’Encarnação, p. 5 (Articles dans L'Africa Romana volume terzo)

Some guanches were already under J-M267 :

https://i.imgur.com/aUtCOS4.png

So it could have been present in North Africa during the roman era. The arab hypothesis is possible but seems very unlikely especially when we look at their numbers in comparison to North Africans.