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DFSTFD
02-08-2021, 04:10 PM
Yamnaya was more like the ancestor of the first groups of Indo-Europeans in the Balkans that gave birth of the Anatolian, Greek, Armenian languages.Trzciniec was probably the ancestral culture of Balto-Slavic people. We also see that it was in close proximity to the Carpathians. However the many cognates of Thracian with Germanic probably suggests that Thracian was spoken west of Trzciniec, or the Lusatian culture which also was present in the Northern Carpathian. Probably it's not a coincidence that artifacts of both Gava Culture as a LBA Carpathian culture and the Lusatian Culture were found in the Balkans. This is what Nicholas Hammond wrote about the Lusatian finds in the Balkans:

These finds were the reason why some maps of Thracians living up to the Baltic shores circulated on internet. Maps such as this one.

Here's a known different view that has been reiterated recently by a linguist working with the languages of the area.

Brixhe 2018: "Rather, in the period between Proto-Indo-European and the emergence of Greek, Thracian, and Phrygian, it is probably necessary to posit a linguistic conglomerate to which the populations which were later to develop into Greeks, Phrygians, and Thracians belonged. They must have arrived in the Balkans in the same migratory wave at a period when they were linguistically still relatively undifferentiated"

If that's the case, then it'd another BA Balkan language formed in a Yamnaya-Balkan_C mix. The Illyrian (and Messapic) linguistic area might be of similar outcome considering the MBA-IA Croatian samples and the proto-Villanovan Adriatic coast sample from Italy. The still few Middle Helladic samples from northern Greece seem to point towards a Yamnaya-Balkan mix, as you stated, for Greek.

OTOH, Anatolian might go to an earlier pre-Yamnaya Chalcolithic migration into the Balkans and the Chalcolithic outliers and/or the low-quality Kumtepe sample with steppe ancestry could be related to it.

On the Lusatian finds, whose geographical spread seems difficult to connect them to the Thracians (if anything, it'd be the Phrygians more specifically as Hammond himself thought in that case), I recall a Serbian archaeologist expressing the view that they were the result of Balkan intermediaries but I couldn't be able to find the relevant information right now. As such, it might not be necessary that there was a direct Lusatian migration and linguistic connection with the area.

I guess we don't really have Lusatian samples so far either, the Tollense group might be the closest thing to it so far spatiotemporally and who knows how representative or connected it is.

Either way, much of all this is too speculative without further samples.

Aspar
02-08-2021, 04:27 PM
Here's a known different view that has been reiterated recently by a linguist working with the languages of the area.

Brixhe 2018: "Rather, in the period between Proto-Indo-European and the emergence of Greek, Thracian, and Phrygian, it is probably necessary to posit a linguistic conglomerate to which the populations which were later to develop into Greeks, Phrygians, and Thracians belonged. They must have arrived in the Balkans in the same migratory wave at a period when they were linguistically still relatively undifferentiated"

If that's the case, then it'd another BA Balkan language formed in a Yamnaya-Balkan_C mix. The Illyrian (and Messapic) linguistic area might be of similar outcome considering the MBA-IA Croatian samples and the proto-Vilanovan Adriatic coast sample from Italy. The still few Middle Helladic samples from northern Greece seem to point towards a Yamnaya-Balkan mix, as you stated, for Greek.

OTOH, Anatolian might go to an earlier pre-Yamnaya Chalcolithic migration into the Balkans and the Chalcolithic outliers and/or the low-quality Kumtepe sample with steppe ancestry could be related to it.

On the Lusatian finds, whose geographical spread seems difficult to connect them to the Thracians (if anything, it'd be the Phrygians more specifically as Hammond himself thought in that case), I recall a Serbian archaeologist expressing the view that they were the result of Balkan intermediaries but I couldn't be able to find the relevant information right now. As such, it might not be necessary that there was a direct Lusatian migration and linguistic connection with the area.

I guess we don't really have Lusatian samples so far either, the Tollense group might be the closest thing to it so far spatiotemporally and who knows how representative or connected it is.

Either way, much of all this is too speculative without further samples.

Good to see other contributors although this isn't associated with the thread about E-V13. Still I will reply on the bolded parts and why I think they are wrong.

By all means, linguistically, culturally etc. it doesn't seem likely that the ancestors of the Greeks and the Thracians arrived in the Balkans with the same wave of Indo-European people and that they spoke "still relatively undifferentiated language". It's clear by the contributions of Duridanov and other linguists such as Georgiev and Hamp that Thracian formed close relationship with the Baltic languages. Much closer than the Greek and closer in time split than EBA. Unless you think that the proto-Baltic arrived from the same wave in the Balkans then I don't know how this can be reliable.

As for the Lusatian finds associated with the Phrygians, it was already established that Phrygian was a close relative to proto-Greek and proto-Macedonian, languages that by all probability couldn't have descended by CWC group such as the Lusatian Culture.

The genesis of the Balkan Peoples (http://www.kroraina.com/vg/vg.html):

VI. The Proto-Phrygian Region

Ancient authors inform us that the Phrygians dwelt formerly in Macedonia () and eastern Illyria. The original region, i.e. the primitive home of the Phrygians, was probably the basin of the river Erigon (), today Černa (or Crna) in northern Macedonia.

After the recent studies of the Phrygian inscriptions of Asia Minor by O. Haas and R. Gusmani [2] it is clear that Phrygian was closely akin to Greek. In the present writer's opinion, Greek, Macedonian and Phrygian formed in the fourth millennium b.c. a common language. But when the Phrygians, in about the second half of the second millennium b.c., passed gradually over southern Thrace into the north-western part of Asia Minor, their language was influenced by Thracian and Mysian.

Riverman
02-08-2021, 04:27 PM
Probably you are right about proto-Anatolian as an earlier split. But proto-Greek and proto-Armenian are very likely descendants of a language spoken in Catacomb Culture which in turn was a Yamnaya derived culture. All three, Cernavoda, CWC and Yamnaya were probably derived from the earlier Sredny Stog because if CWC was directly descended from Yamnaya we would have seen a closer relationship uniparental markers wise but that's not the case so it's an earlier split from Sredny Stog IMO. Although I'm not sure how much archaeologically accountable is that as I never had such a big interest for the earliest Indo-European issue.

We can't completely exclude that possibility, but I rather agree with what DFSTFD wrote about that issue, since I too think that Greek-Armenian in particular came in later and not with Yamnaya. I'm just not sure yet whether they already descend directly from charioteers or just lived in the region and adopted it before completely conquering Greece.

On the other hand I totally agree with you on Yamnaya vs. Corded Ware. To me, Corded Ware looks like a descendant of Dereivka rather, pottery, farming, styles, primitive metallurgy and conservative, small, clan based units etc. general influence from the West, from farming cultures with little to no genetic contribution however. The Yamnaya people were more pastoralist, seasonal herders with little genetic and cultural input. The earlier Western groups like Cernavoda, Usatovo-Cotofeni etc. and Corded Ware itself were all rather cousins or brothers rather than direct descendants of Yamnaya. And yes, both should descent from Lower Don Culture -> Sredny Stog Culture, then came the split, before Yamnaya made its big expansion on the step and kicked everyone else out, including the mentioned brothers and cousins.

Concerning the closeness of Greek and Armenian, this is of course debatable.

DFSTFD
02-08-2021, 04:36 PM
Good to see other contributors although this isn't associated with the thread about E-V13. Still I will reply on the bolded parts and why I think they are wrong.

By all means, linguistically, culturally etc. it doesn't seem likely that the ancestors of the Greeks and the Thracians arrived in the Balkans with the same wave of Indo-European people and that they spoke "still relatively undifferentiated language". It's clear by the contributions of Duridanov and other linguists such as Georgiev and Hamp that Thracian formed close relationship with the Baltic languages. Much closer than the Greek and closer in time split than EBA. Unless you think that the proto-Baltic arrived from the same wave in the Balkans then I don't know how this can be reliable.

As for the Lusatian finds associated with the Phrygians, it was already established that Phrygian was a close relative to proto-Greek and proto-Macedonian, languages that by all probability couldn't have descended by CWC group such as the Lusatian Culture.

The genesis of the Balkan Peoples (http://www.kroraina.com/vg/vg.html):

The major point I wanted to make is that still barely anything is that "clear", even if we find one or another scenario more likely based on our readings. Not for the post-Beaker interactions in Western Europe during the BA-IA or for the Balkans. I personally do find it very likely that Yamnaya, in mixed form, might have been directly the linguistic ancestor of all the Balkan branches we find attested in the IA (rather than a "backmigration" from the west or from the Steppe_MLBA-like post-Catacomb steppe/forest steppe being responsible) but I could end up being wrong.

Re: Lusatian, that was precisely my point. They're found in areas generally associated with Phrygians (and I do think Hammond himself made that connection since you brought his view up) so the connection you brought up might be tenuous and could reflect something else.

DFSTFD
02-08-2021, 04:49 PM
We can't completely exclude that possibility, but I rather agree with what DFSTFD wrote about that issue, since I too think that Greek-Armenian in particular came in later and not with Yamnaya. I'm just not sure yet whether they already descend directly from charioteers or just lived in the region and adopted it before completely conquering Greece.

The chariot has been debated endlessly but I'm not sure if it's necessarily connected to proto-Greek (or early Greek before they moved further south at any rate) rather than being a cultural adoption, whether from the Carpathian Basin or the steppe itself during the MLBA. The intimate relationship a lot of linguists have argued exists between Greek and Indo-Iranian has made a lot of people reasonably find it likely but around the same period and later on it's also connected to various both non-IE and IE (but likely not Steppe_MLBA connected populations in the IE case like the Nordic BA/Germans and Celts), as you know. I suppose to an extent it also depends on which scenario one finds more likely, whether a late EH-early MH arrival or a rather late MH/early LH arrival, in which case the connection with the chariot is more likely. The new samples certainly point towards the former, in my view, but ideally we'll have more soon enough.

etrusco
02-08-2021, 04:57 PM
Dereivka had contribution of genes from the farmers. The influence was both cultural and in dna:

sample": "Ukraine_Eneolithic:I4110",
"fit": 3.4225,
"Globular_Amphora_Ukraine": 42.5,
"Progress_Eneolithic": 30,
"SHG": 19.17,
"EHG": 7.5,
"WHG": 0.83,
"LBK_N": 0,

What happened after was that Ukraine HG absorbed more populations from Progress rich cultures. So EEF went down and Progress went up. That is the formation of Yamanaya EBA steppe dna.
It was a shift from a more western SS to a more eastern SS genetic profile.

Riverman
02-08-2021, 05:11 PM
Dereivka had contribution of genes from the farmers. The influence was both cultural and in dna:

sample": "Ukraine_Eneolithic:I4110",
"fit": 3.4225,
"Globular_Amphora_Ukraine": 42.5,
"Progress_Eneolithic": 30,
"SHG": 19.17,
"EHG": 7.5,
"WHG": 0.83,
"LBK_N": 0,

What happened after was that Ukraine HG absorbed more populations from Progress rich cultures. So EEF went down and Progress went up. That is the formation of Yamanaya EBA steppe dna.
It was a shift from a more western SS to a more eastern SS genetic profile.

Dereivka is just a place, what matters is proven representatives of the Dereivka culture. I'm not sure any single sample found and analysed so far is really representative for the late Dereivka culture in the first place and even if it would, one single example is surely not enough for getting the full picture. But I totally agree with you on your conclusion, that this was an internal shift of SS related groups, with the Western ones being already pushed out of the steppe at that point, like Cernavoda shows to us and a whole East -> West shift took place. This was however at first not related to Yamnaya at all and later they rather pushed on, rather than being the people which moved on the forest steppe themselves, possible admixture not withstanding.

Aspar
02-08-2021, 05:12 PM
The major point I wanted to make is that still barely anything is that "clear", even if we find one or another scenario more likely based on our readings. Not for the post-Beaker interactions in Western Europe during the BA-IA or for the Balkans. I personally do find it very likely that Yamnaya, in mixed form, might have been directly the linguistic ancestor of all the Balkan branches we find attested in the IA (rather than a "backmigration" from the west or from the Steppe_MLBA-like post-Catacomb steppe/forest steppe being responsible) but I could end up being wrong.

Re: Lusatian, that was precisely my point. They're found in areas generally associated with Phrygians (and I do think Hammond himself made that connection since you brought his view up) so the connection you brought up might be tenuous and could reflect something else.

Of course we are only debating and speculating based on the material we have trying to connect the dots. I on the other hand find it likely that a Catacomb Culture people might have brought proto-Greek to Greece. It's proximity with some CWC group directly ancestral for proto-Indo-Iranian is a good point to imagine that some influences between both cultures might have formed some isoglosses and other linguistic features that Greek shares with Indo-Iranian languages.

On the other hand, the finds of the Lusatian cultures Hammond spoke about are from mount Vermion in Central Macedonian and North-Western Turkey or Hellesponte Phrygia, place that the Thracian tribes initially settled. Central and Eastern Macedonia were even known as Thraco-Macedonian region (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Macedonian).

DFSTFD
02-08-2021, 05:28 PM
Of course we are only debating and speculating based on the material we have trying to connect the dots. I on the other hand find it likely that a Catacomb Culture people might have brought proto-Greek to Greece. It's proximity with some CWC group directly ancestral for proto-Indo-Iranian is a good point to imagine that some influences between both cultures might have formed some isoglosses and other linguistic features that Greek shares with Indo-Iranian languages.

On the other hand, the finds of the Lusatian cultures Hammond spoke about are from mount Vermion in Central Macedonian and North-Western Turkey or Hellesponte Phrygia, place that the Thracian tribes initially settled. Central and Eastern Macedonia were even known as Thraco-Macedonian region (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Macedonian).

I find the first part likely too, a neighboring relationship rather than a genetic (in the linguistic sense too) one at this point but we'll see with more data.

The foothills of Bermion were the "gardens of Midas". It was where the Phrygians were supposed to have settled in Macedonia before moving towards Anatolian Phrygia (while apparently leaving some remnants behind in parts of the Balkans) via NW Anatolia, though it's true that Thracian tribes seem to have settled in the area too (e.g. the Bottiaei) before the Argead Macedonians apparently expelled them. As I said, Hammond himself made the connection of these Lusatian findings to the Phrygians specifically, especially because of the dating. You're opting for a different interpretation, reasonable enough I suppose, but the areas they are found in do have a connection with the Phrygians which is why he made the connection himself.

Another point is what Lusatian connection the historical larger Thracian area has in general, rather than those specific ones that have different interpretations too. I haven't come across that.

DFSTFD
02-08-2021, 05:44 PM
Dereivka is just a place, what matters is proven representatives of the Dereivka culture. I'm not sure any single sample found and analysed so far is really representative for the late Dereivka culture in the first place and even if it would, one single example is surely not enough for getting the full picture. But I totally agree with you on your conclusion, that this was an internal shift of SS related groups, with the Western ones being already pushed out of the steppe at that point, like Cernavoda shows to us and a whole East -> West shift took place. This was however at first not related to Yamnaya at all and later they rather pushed on, rather than being the people which moved on the forest steppe themselves, possible admixture not withstanding.

I agree. We only have 2 samples, which differ considerably between each other too, towards a UKR_N direction. That being said, the early Corded Ware samples interestingly do seem to plot between Yamnaya (or the pre-Yamnaya part of the Khvalynsk-Progress cline if you prefer) and a "Dereivka"-like population, though that might be just a fluke since a similar steppe-hg-farmer mix would probably give you similar results.

Riverman
02-08-2021, 05:57 PM
I agree. We only have 2 samples, which differ considerably between each other too, towards a UKR_N direction. That being said, the early Corded Ware samples interestingly do seem to plot between Yamnaya (or the pre-Yamnaya part of the Khvalynsk-Progress cline if you prefer) and a "Dereivka"-like population, though that might be just a fluke since a similar steppe-hg-farmer mix would probably give you similar results.

My current interpretation is that from the Lower Don Culture two branches came, first Sredny Stog, the other Khvalynsk. Early Khvalynsk was still rather pure LDC-SSC, but later the acquired admixture from local foragers and farmers to the North East, up the river. This mixed Khvalynsk branch was however largely eliminated later and Yamnaya was the next branch expanding also to the East, being again more pure LDC-SSC derived. After their specialisation, probably under influence from Maykop, they turned on the Western groups and networks, which they seem to have either pushed out, mixed or annihilated them. However, with the exception of the very fringe groups in the borderland to the farmers and Northern foragers, they had exactly the same mix of ancient ancestries, because they were all LDC-SSC, Yamnaya and the relatively unmixed Western groups. This ancestral component was not introduced by Yamnaya, it was already there, but how widespread and how Dereivka proper will look, only a large survey can conclude.

Aspar
02-08-2021, 06:20 PM
I find the first part likely too, a neighboring relationship rather than a genetic (in the linguistic sense too) one at this point but we'll see with more data.

The foothills of Bermion were the "gardens of Midas". It was where the Phrygians were supposed to have settled in Macedonia before moving towards Anatolian Phrygia (while apparently leaving some remnants behind in parts of the Balkans) via NW Anatolia, though it's true that Thracian tribes seem to have settled in the area too (e.g. the Bottiaei) before the Argead Macedonians apparently expelled them. As I said, Hammond himself made the connection of these Lusatian findings to the Phrygians specifically, especially because of the dating. You're opting for a different interpretation, reasonable enough I suppose, but the areas they are found in do have a connection with the Phrygians which is why he made the connection himself.

Another point is what Lusatian connection the historical larger Thracian area has in general, rather than those specific ones that have different interpretations too. I haven't come across that.

Exactly, I made a different interpretation of Hammond's finds because as I said, Phrygian was found to be close relative of proto-Greek and proto-Macedonian, a characteristic highly improbable of Lusatian connection. On the other hand, the Phrygians were historically associated with the Thracian which would suggest that some sort of mixing or mingling between the two peoples occured.

The Balkans are generally not well explored but going by some scarce archaeological materials the Gava Culture or the Fluted Ware certainly had a presence in the core Thracian area however I haven't found anything about Lusatian finds in the core Thracian region. Since the Gava and the Lusatian Cultures were neighbors to each other, I assume there was not a single Culture or peoples involved in the large scale LBA migrations that brought the Dark age in Greece but rather more than one. How these movements are related to each other is not well known but the picture is rather quite complex. My point was initially that some of the Carpathian Cultures such as Gava-Holihrady might have been Lusatianized sort to say, bringing the language in the Balkans but not necessarily much of the genetic material of the Lusatian Culture. Of course this all is in the range of speculation.

DFSTFD
02-08-2021, 06:43 PM
Here's another older view on that particular issue I recalled, just for the sake of extra information, from a chapter discussing the different pottery that finds itself towards the south during the LBA period of complex movements you mentioned, that helped bring the Dark Ages in southern Greece too.

Jan Bouzek, 1974: "The Macedonian 'Lausitz' ware is best paralleled in the north-west Balkan Urnfields (sometimes called Middle Danubian)"

Lausitz in quotes because I suppose he considers it a non-direct offshoot, not from the Lusatian but from the nearby more southern region, the Transdanubian groups of the image you posted (a bit like what I wrote earlier about another archaeologist's opinion I had come across). Judging from what you wrote here and in your previous posts too, I suppose you'd consider Thracian to be a recent offshoot towards the Balkans from the northwest, whether Lusatian-related or close-by, during the LBA rather than a relatively in situ eastern Balkan development since the late EBA - early MBA.

Johnny ola
02-08-2021, 07:13 PM
Exactly, I made a different interpretation of Hammond's finds because as I said, Phrygian was found to be close relative of proto-Greek and proto-Macedonian, a characteristic highly improbable of Lusatian connection. On the other hand, the Phrygians were historically associated with the Thracian which would suggest that some sort of mixing or mingling between the two peoples occured.

The Balkans are generally not well explored but going by some scarce archaeological materials the Gava Culture or the Fluted Ware certainly had a presence in the core Thracian area however I haven't found anything about Lusatian finds in the core Thracian region. Since the Gava and the Lusatian Cultures were neighbors to each other, I assume there was not a single Culture or peoples involved in the large scale LBA migrations that brought the Dark age in Greece but rather more than one. How these movements are related to each other is not well known but the picture is rather quite complex. My point was initially that some of the Carpathian Cultures such as Gava-Holihrady might have been Lusatianized sort to say, bringing the language in the Balkans but not necessarily much of the genetic material of the Lusatian Culture. Of course this all is in the range of speculation.

A small correction here:Thracian is a satem dialect and Phrygian is centum.Phrygians came THROUGH Thrace, that does not mean they came FROM Thrace, their Balkan homeland was prolly in the Macedonia, Paeonia areas.Thracians and Phrygians were not the same people.Herodotus claims are not exactly accurate.But even Herodotus says that Bryges, from whom Phrygians descend from, lived in and around Macedonia.

Hawk
02-08-2021, 07:14 PM
Here's another older view on that particular issue I recalled, just for the sake of extra information, from a chapter discussing the different pottery that finds itself towards the south during the LBA period of complex movements you mentioned, that helped bring the Dark Ages in southern Greece too.

Jan Bouzek, 1974: "The Macedonian 'Lausitz' ware is best paralleled in the north-west Balkan Urnfields (sometimes called Middle Danubian)"

Lausitz in quotes because I suppose he considers it a non-direct offshoot, not from the Lusatian but from the nearby more southern region, the Transdanubian groups of the image you posted (a bit like what I wrote earlier about another archaeologist's opinion I had come across). Judging from what you wrote here and in your previous posts too, I suppose you'd consider Thracian to be a recent offshoot towards the Balkans from the northwest, whether Lusatian-related or close-by, during the LBA rather than a relatively in situ eastern Balkan development since the late EBA - early MBA.

Well, the Middle Danubian groups influenced Illyrians, while the Eastern offshots were the ones who formed or influenced Thracians.

etrusco
02-08-2021, 07:17 PM
My current interpretation is that from the Lower Don Culture two branches came, first Sredny Stog, the other Khvalynsk. Early Khvalynsk was still rather pure LDC-SSC, but later the acquired admixture from local foragers and farmers to the North East, up the river. This mixed Khvalynsk branch was however largely eliminated later and Yamnaya was the next branch expanding also to the East, being again more pure LDC-SSC derived. After their specialisation, probably under influence from Maykop, they turned on the Western groups and networks, which they seem to have either pushed out, mixed or annihilated them. However, with the exception of the very fringe groups in the borderland to the farmers and Northern foragers, they had exactly the same mix of ancient ancestries, because they were all LDC-SSC, Yamnaya and the relatively unmixed Western groups. This ancestral component was not introduced by Yamnaya, it was already there, but how widespread and how Dereivka proper will look, only a large survey can conclude.

SSC do not derive from the Lower Don. It is based on local Dneper Donets Culture ( original PIE folks) + strong cultural imput from the Balkan Carpathian region. As per the Kotova paper

https://www.academia.edu/35556491/The_contacts_of_the_Eastern_European_steppe_people _with_the_Balkan_population_during_the_transition_ period_from_Neolithic_to_Eneolithic

From the abstract.

This article is devoted to cultural contacts of steppe population and Balkan people about 5300–4800 BC. Numerous imports (adornments from copper, cornelian, marine shells, pots, plates from the bone and nacre, pendants from the teeth of red deer), radical changes in the cultural traditions (new type ornamental compositions, flexed inhumations, stone in graves and above them, pits with alcove) and imitation of pottery have been fxed for the Late Neolithic in the Eastern European steppe. Acquaintance with first metal and strong western impact caused the formation of the new Sredniy Stog culture.

Dneper Donets Culture has a strong influence also on the Middle/Lower Volga. Khvalinsk can be modeled as having something like 40% Ukraine neolithic input.
IMHO that the way I see the IE issue

DDC= archaic PIE
SREDNI STOG ( after EEF influence with agro pastoralism and metals)= full PIE
Sredni Stog east ( proto Yamanaya) LPIE

Aspar
02-08-2021, 07:21 PM
Here's another older view on that particular issue I recalled, just for the sake of extra information, from a chapter discussing the different pottery that finds itself towards the south during the LBA period of complex movements you mentioned, that helped bring the Dark Ages in southern Greece too.

Jan Bouzek, 1974: "The Macedonian 'Lausitz' ware is best paralleled in the north-west Balkan Urnfields (sometimes called Middle Danubian)"

Lausitz in quotes because I suppose he considers it a non-direct offshoot, not from the Lusatian but from the nearby more southern region, the Transdanubian groups of the image you posted (a bit like what I wrote earlier about another archaeologist's opinion I had come across). Judging from what you wrote here and in your previous posts too, I suppose you'd consider Thracian to be a recent offshoot towards the Balkans from the northwest, whether Lusatian-related or close-by, during the LBA rather than a relatively in situ eastern Balkan development since the late EBA - early MBA.

I will definitely take a look at this "Macedonian Lausitz" ware. Trans-Danubian culture or the Encrusted Pottery Culture had great influence in the Central Balkans especially in the formation of the Girla-Mare Culture or Dubovac-Zuto group. Recently pottery from the Encrusted Pottery Culture was also found in North-Western Bulgaria. As you already mentioned, artifact of the same culture are found in Greece as well and it's almost certain that people of this culture were involved in LBA movements in Greece. I read sime Russian articles that this culture might have been proto-Dorian but this likely not the case as witnessed by the Mycenaean as a Greek language already in MBA Greece and the Dorians as Greek speakers were already in the South Balkans by MBA. I would imagine Encrusted Pottery Culture rather brought some Urnfield or Illyrian flavour to Greece.

Yes, that's exactly what I think about Thracian. It was a LBA arrival in the Balkans south of Danube. It goes hand in hand with the genetic picture of BA Bulgaria thus far where it seems there was huge replacement and change of population from EBA to EIA.

Aspar
02-08-2021, 07:24 PM
A small correction here:Thracian is a satem dialect and Phrygian is centum.Phrygians came THROUGH Thrace, that does not mean they came FROM Thrace, their Balkan homeland was prolly in the Macedonia, Paeonia areas.Thracians and Phrygians were not the same people.Herodotus claims are not exactly accurate.But even Herodotus says that Bryges, from whom Phrygians descend from, lived in and around Macedonia.

Well that's what I was saying all along, they were different people. However we can imagine there was mixing and intermingling between the two peoples as Thracian tribes did migrate in Macedonia but also going by historical accounts that made association between the two peoples.

Riverman
02-08-2021, 07:24 PM
Here's another older view on that particular issue I recalled, just for the sake of extra information, from a chapter discussing the different pottery that finds itself towards the south during the LBA period of complex movements you mentioned, that helped bring the Dark Ages in southern Greece too.

Jan Bouzek, 1974: "The Macedonian 'Lausitz' ware is best paralleled in the north-west Balkan Urnfields (sometimes called Middle Danubian)"

Lausitz in quotes because I suppose he considers it a non-direct offshoot, not from the Lusatian but from the nearby more southern region, the Transdanubian groups of the image you posted (a bit like what I wrote earlier about another archaeologist's opinion I had come across). Judging from what you wrote here and in your previous posts too, I suppose you'd consider Thracian to be a recent offshoot towards the Balkans from the northwest, whether Lusatian-related or close-by, during the LBA rather than a relatively in situ eastern Balkan development since the late EBA - early MBA.

I consider Urnfield a multi-ethnic network held together by common religious and belief systems, trade and technology. The exact relations are unclear, but I think they formed alliances to achieve goals against people outside their realm and this included the Urnfield expansions Southward. Fluted Ware, Gįva-Holigrady in particular, is extremly likely to be Proto-Daco-Thracian. What the main Urnfield groups and especially Lusatian spoke, we don't know, but Western groups are highly likely to have been Proto-Celtic speakers and in the Pannonian sphere Illyrians. This alone shows the range. Yet the strongest association of E-V13 is clearly with the Daco-Thracians, so I'd assume the South-Eastern Urnfield groups with the Fluted Ware groups are the core, but they also influenced neighbouring groups, which would mean some moved during the Urnfield times, but also later, in the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and especially early Hallstatt, to the West, even in the Celtic sphere.
The Dacians however got also influenced by new steppe people of the Cimmerian and Scythian-Iranian sphere, so this influence could have reduced the original percentages brought there during Urnfield and increased respective steppe lineages. More so in the Dacian, than the Thracian sphere, even though the same did happen in both regions.

Looking at both the archaeological and genetic data, there is no way the developments in the Pannonian, Carpathian and Balkan regions can be explained by in situ development with only cultural diffusion from the North, that's absolutely impossible. However, how exactly the genetic and archaeological-cultural relations pan out, can only be determined by large scale testing, otherwise its indeed more or less informed guesswork.

Hawk
02-08-2021, 09:39 PM
Btw, the close relationship between Thracian and Baltic languages is not supported by mainstream linguists. Worth to note it.

Granary
02-08-2021, 09:55 PM
Did phter have ever make one of his tree branch graph for E-V13?

DFSTFD
02-08-2021, 10:28 PM
A small correction here:Thracian is a satem dialect and Phrygian is centum.Phrygians came THROUGH Thrace, that does not mean they came FROM Thrace, their Balkan homeland was prolly in the Macedonia, Paeonia areas.Thracians and Phrygians were not the same people.Herodotus claims are not exactly accurate.But even Herodotus says that Bryges, from whom Phrygians descend from, lived in and around Macedonia.

That might not be completely certain either. From the same article I quoted before:

Brixhe, 2018: "...it appears that Thracian may well not have belonged to the satem group of Indo-European languages"

Certainly we're dealing with much less well attested languages so various interpretations have been at play over time. In general, even the modern "Balkan" languages that are sometimes classified as satem (Armenian and Albanian) seem like they don't fully fit the classification and similarly the RUKI rule looks like it operates incompletely in them. Either way, they overall appear to be relative greater outsiders to the potential relationship that might have tied Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian somewhere within NE Europe more intimately later on, until the final separation. And then you have many linguists who have also wondered about how diagnostic satemization in particular is about genetic relationships...

Though as Aspar said, that was his point in that case. I'm much more uncertain, I still think that the Balkan languages all might have a common 3rd millennium origin along the more northern parts of the Balkans and contemporary areas of the steppe (Catacomb etc.) before separating in different stages, separate to the rest of IE, though the scenario he and Riverman consider about e.g. Thracian is interesting.

We see various even more northern influences arriving all over the area later on, like the ones that have been mentioned, but I guess it remains to be seen what impact exactly they had.


but Western groups are highly likely to have been Proto-Celtic speakers

I guess we have a similar situation there where the post-Beaker movements within the same relative area might be even more difficult to disentangle. Koch reasonably thinks that the genetic data so far can't really completely outrule the Atlantic Bronze Age as being the proto-Celtic-speaking area on their own (though interestingly the French BA to IA data might show a potential eastern movement like I remarked on a previous topic towards you though it's still a bit flimsy to argue due to the great overall similarity, great local variation and overall small dataset), even as ABA as proto-Celtic has always been a minority position.

Riverman
02-08-2021, 11:01 PM
Though as Aspar said, that was his point in that case. I'm much more uncertain, I still think that the Balkan languages all might have a common 3rd millennium origin along the more northern parts of the Balkans and contemporary areas of the steppe (Catacomb etc.) before separating in different stages, separate to the rest of IE, though the scenario he and Riverman consider about e.g. Thracian is interesting.

We see various even more northern influences arriving all over the area later on, like the ones that have been mentioned, but I guess it remains to be seen what impact exactly they had.

The issue is that especially E-V13 is the marker which spread afterwards and this has to be connected to a movement, yet we have data from Panonnia and only in the Northern groups so far single samples, in the networks of Urnfield in the wider sense. From the Balkans, nothing so far. And the whole flow was going from the North, to the South, there was no major movement in the opposite direction. The LBA-EIA transition is just ideal for new clans and patrilineages to have spread at the expanse of the earlier layers, just like the Pannonian study seems to have proven. I just hope the full data comes out soon.



Koch reasonably thinks that the genetic data so far can't really outrule the Atlantic Bronze Age as being the proto-Celtic-speaking area on their own (though interestingly the French BA to IA data might show a potential eastern movement like I remarked on a previous topic towards you though it's still a bit flimsy to argue due to the great overall similarity, great local variation and overall small dataset), even as ABA as proto-Celtic has always been a minority position.

There is absolutely no way that the ABA was Proto-Celtic in my opinion. We got the data from Serbia recently, and even there the people were heavily influenced, quite similar to a large degree to Bell Beakers. If there was a major LBA-EIA East -> West migration spreading Proto-Celtic, the genetic impact will be limited, even more so, if it was primarily a wave-like movement, in which with every next region, the original spreaders contribution would be lower, yet still recognisable up to Britain. It is with this wave, in the Iron Age, which should have brought the first E-V13 and with it Pannonian-Balkan lineages to the British Isles.

Its possible however, even though I don't believe that, but that's more likely, that something close to Celtic, a similar, related Centum-dialect, some para-Celtic language was spoken in the West, along the Atlantic facade. So the idea of a people which language was already IE and similar to Celtic, is probably not that far fetched, but Celtic proper surely spread first with Urnfield I'd say, to some regions, with a tradition in Western Hallstatt, Eastern Hallstatt was more likely Illyrian, and then the biggest expansions with the La Tene culture.

ABA is much to idiosyncratic and again, like in the Balkans, the flow was going in the opposite direction, there was no large scale shift from West -> East, but in the opposite direction. The ABA, just like the Balkan cultures from before the LBA-EIA, did leave little traces culturally and came under the influence of more dynamic cultures which took over. But that's a very different topic, with one exception, namely that E-V13 in Hallstatt and La Tene is to be expected, like a signal of the Iron Age wave. Only as a minority, but a clear signal sticking out in the sea of Bell Beaker lineages, together with other lineages being picked up in the Urnfield spread, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, the Hallstatt formation in particular, coming from the North Carpathians, Pannonia and Balkans, and moving with the Proto-Celts proper West, into formerly more clearly, more poor Bell Beaker territories. So Celts were BB plus Eastern and South Eastern admixture, the ABA were still largely unmixed Bell Beakers, largely isoalted from the main movements of Europe afterwards.

So the story of E-V13 will be very illuminating in this respect, because it was, for much of Europe, a new marker, which creates a clear signal of patrilineages on the move, in an otherwise less differentiated environment. Just like I1 became such a fairly clear signal for Germanic migrations.

ShpataEMadhe
02-09-2021, 08:24 PM
Of course we can spot this discrepancy but I'm not sure that CTS1273 moved from West Balkans to East as you was saying before. Otherwise how would you explain the existence of E-BY6550 in North-Western Europe and none in the Balkans? It's very probable that this lineage was part of the CWC expansion and this didn't took place through the Balkans but rather from the western outskirts of the PC steppe, upwards following the eastern slopes of the Carpathians into the Baltic region and Poland. So it's very probable that E-BY6550 was assimilated somewhere on that path, somewhere around the Carpathians. In that sense, I think of E-V13 as an ultra Carpathian haplogroup, it was somewhere around the Carpathians when it was assimilated by CWC groups, not Yamnaya as you was suggesting before. Yamnaya was more like the ancestor of the first groups of Indo-Europeans in the Balkans that gave birth of the Anatolian, Greek, Armenian languages. As we all start to agree that E-V13 was very represented among the Thracian-Getae-Dacian groups and we already have seen published samples of some of these and heard rumors of unpublished yet samples, we get a clear picture of E-V13 as an ultra Carpathian group in accordance with the places inhabited by Dacians-Getae-Thracians people. What little we know about the Thracian language there is no doubt it was a close relative of the Baltic languages which of course should be descendants of some earlier CWC language that was spoken by some CWC groups. According to Ivan Duridanov, of about 200 reconstructed Thracian words, most cognates (138) appear in the Baltic languages, mostly in Lithuanian, followed by Germanic (61). Therefore we can assume that Thracian language was the language of some CWC people and E-V13 was most probably indo-europenized by CWC groups, NOT Yamnaya ones who should have been the ancestors of the proto-Greeks, Anatolians and Armenians.

This is the situation of MBA Carpathians:
https://i.postimg.cc/xT1nJSQV/MBA-Europe.png (https://postimages.org/)

And this is the situation of LBA Carpathian:
https://i.postimg.cc/XqzSjY7J/LBA-Europe.png (https://postimages.org/)

Trzciniec was probably the ancestral culture of Balto-Slavic people. We also see that it was in close proximity to the Carpathians. However the many cognates of Thracian with Germanic probably suggests that Thracian was spoken west of Trzciniec, or the Lusatian culture which also was present in the Northern Carpathian. Probably it's not a coincidence that artifacts of both Gava Culture as a LBA Carpathian culture and the Lusatian Culture were found in the Balkans. This is what Nicholas Hammond wrote about the Lusatian finds in the Balkans:


These finds were the reason why some maps of Thracians living up to the Baltic shores circulated on internet. Maps such as this one:
https://i.postimg.cc/dVJQ9Trp/Thracians.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Therefore IMO CTS1273 never moved from the West Balkans to the East but rather the ancestor of Y37092 moved to the West Balkans from an area around the Carpathians. Y37092 was probably born in the West Balkans but it's ancestor wasn't native there.

If Greek, Armenian etc languages were made from indo European r1b groups where is the adna evidence? Also modern Greeks have very little western r1b

J2a people made the Greek language, maybe alongside g2

Hawk
02-09-2021, 11:12 PM
If Greek, Armenian etc languages were made from indo European r1b groups where is the adna evidence? Also modern Greeks have very little western r1b

J2a people made the Greek language, maybe alongside g2

I really doubt it, it's even more clear that J2a was part of Cycladic Civilization and Minoan along with G2a. But certainly part of Mycenaean Civilization.

The more inland Proto-Greeks were overhelmly R1b-Z2103 and perhaps some E-V13 subclades as well.

ShpataEMadhe
02-10-2021, 11:28 AM
I really doubt it, it's even more clear that J2a was part of Cycladic Civilization and Minoan along with G2a. But certainly part of Mycenaean Civilization.

The more inland Proto-Greeks were overhelmly R1b-Z2103 and perhaps some E-V13 subclades as well.

Again, where is the adna evidence to support ancient greeks carried z2013 and v13. Maybe we have timescales mixed up.

By ancient greeks I mean myceaneans etc. Those that made the ancient Greek civilisations and language, they were j2a and g2 people, not r1b. R1b came later to Greece, what is the earliest r1b found in Greece so far?

davit
02-10-2021, 11:35 AM
Again, where is the adna evidence to support ancient greeks carried z2013 and v13. Maybe we have timescales mixed up.

By ancient greeks I mean myceaneans etc. Those that made the ancient Greek civilisations and language and they were j2a and g2 people, not r1b. R1b came later to Greece, what is the earliest r1b found in Greece so far?

There is no Greek language with R1b-Z2103.

Johnny ola
02-10-2021, 12:19 PM
Again, where is the adna evidence to support ancient greeks carried z2013 and v13. Maybe we have timescales mixed up.

By ancient greeks I mean myceaneans etc. Those that made the ancient Greek civilisations and language, they were j2a and g2 people, not r1b. R1b came later to Greece, what is the earliest r1b found in Greece so far?

So what are you saying? That an IE dialect arrived with J2 and G2 Neolithic people rather with r1b/r1a lineages? You forget that there is steppe DNA among Mycenaeans. It's impossible the Greek language to arrived in Greece from Anatolia/Aegean and not from modern Ukraine/Moldova from a steppe related source. We don't have enough samples from bronze and iron age Greeks. So, i would suggest you to not hurry. BTW there are some R1b lineages among Greeks. Without saying that proto-Greeks were R1b. There are possibilities of being R1a. We should wait for ancient DNA.

Riverman
02-10-2021, 01:05 PM
So what are you saying? That an IE dialect arrived with J2 and G2 Neolithic people rather with r1b/r1a lineages? You forget that there is steppe DNA among Mycenaeans. It's impossible the Greek language to arrived in Greece from Anatolia/Aegean and not from modern Ukraine/Moldova from a steppe related source. We don't have enough samples from bronze and iron age Greeks. So, i would suggest you to not hurry. BTW there are some R1b lineages among Greeks. Without saying that proto-Greeks were R1b. There are possibilities of being R1a. We should wait for ancient DNA.

There could have been a switch on the way, somewhere between Moldova and Northern Greece to a higher proportion of J2a in particular. This is possible, but the question is what is "Proto-Greek" in this context? The tribe still on the steppe? The tribe on the move? The group living in what is now Bulgaria most likely? Or the ones which actually entered Greece? The latter could have been J2a dominated, but rather unlikely they had no R1(b) lineage.

Aspar
02-10-2021, 01:34 PM
If Greek, Armenian etc languages were made from indo European r1b groups where is the adna evidence? Also modern Greeks have very little western r1b

J2a people made the Greek language, maybe alongside g2

The ancient DNA is scarce. However if you have followed this forum you might have heard some rumors of yet to be published data that confirms presence of R-Z2103 among the Mycenaeans. Of course this is yet to be officialized however modern Greeks and especially Armenians have have quite a lot of R-Z2103, NOT the western R1b. How did it arrive there? The Greek R-Z2103 is diverse just to mention in order someone tries to connect it to more recent R-BY611 which is of Albanian origin and spread throughout the Balkans with the Albanian migrations.


Btw, the close relationship between Thracian and Baltic languages is not supported by mainstream linguists. Worth to note it.

Nothing can be said for certain when it comes to an extinct language which is examined mainly with the help of toponyms and patronyms and which relies on reconstructed words. What the evidence suggests so far is that there is quite a similarities with the modern Baltic languages than anything else. Moreso than with other Balkan languages such as Greek or Albanian. There is a lot of material on the matter. I am aware of quite many linguists who support all this. Can you tell us something more which we don't know and who is opposing this view in particular?

ShpataEMadhe
02-10-2021, 01:50 PM
So what are you saying? That an IE dialect arrived with J2 and G2 Neolithic people rather with r1b/r1a lineages? You forget that there is steppe DNA among Mycenaeans. It's impossible the Greek language to arrived in Greece from Anatolia/Aegean and not from modern Ukraine/Moldova from a steppe related source. We don't have enough samples from bronze and iron age Greeks. So, i would suggest you to not hurry. BTW there are some R1b lineages among Greeks. Without saying that proto-Greeks were R1b. There are possibilities of being R1a. We should wait for ancient DNA.

I don't believe in current IE dialect theory because loan words exist and languages along with accents can change and grow over time dependent on new cultures, I believe dna tells the full story. There is no reason for modern Greeks to have so little r1b (some of their r1b is BY611 so doesn't count) if their civilizations were 50-100% r1b. Again a lot of r1a in modern Greeks is slavic not ancient Greek

J2a and g2 have been found in ancient greece so those are the ancient greeks until we get more data to disprove it. If you look at South Italy a lot of people there are also j2a and g2 - because ancient greeks settled south Italy and they weren't r1b at all

Johnny ola
02-10-2021, 02:12 PM
I don't believe in current IE dialect theory because loan words exist and languages along with accents can change and grow over time dependent on new cultures, I believe dna tells the full story. There is no reason for modern Greeks to have so little r1b (some of their r1b is BY611 so doesn't count) if their civilizations were 50-100% r1b. Again a lot of r1a in modern Greeks is slavic not ancient Greek

J2a and g2 have been found in ancient greece so those are the ancient greeks until we get more data to disprove it. If you look at South Italy a lot of people there are also j2a and g2 - because ancient greeks settled south Italy and they weren't r1b at all


First of all modern Greeks are not exactly the same people as their forefathers.Second,EV13 is the dominant male lineage in mainland parts.J2a is frenquent in southern areas and more specific in Crete.Cycladic and Minoan civilization would have been indeed mostly J2a/G2a people.In general our data is limited,with 2 samples you can't say for sure that bronze age Greeks were mostly J2a.Also keep in mind that Mycenaeans/Achaeans were the first tribe.After with Iron age and with the Greek Dark ages other tribes will settled southern.We lack genomes from Iron Age period.Also to mention that the J2a lineages you talking about are unsampled.We have no idea what specific clades Bronze Age Greeks belonged.That is making it a little bit hard to compare them with the J2a lineages of some Greeks and South Italians.The fact some Greeks and Italians are J2a and G2a does not making these people direct ancestors of Ancient Greeks.You have to check deeper the clades they belong and compare them with those of Bronze Age and Ancient Greeks.Such lineages like J2a/G2a can be easily coming from the bronze age anatolia.I am a G2a-M406 lineager with ancestry from Anatolia...and this specific lineage can be found in the 'east med'(from Turkey to South Italy) that means i have a Greek ancestor or my lineage is Greek?You need to explore deeper clades to have a better conclusion.G2a lineages both in Greece and Turkey can be easily considered native neolithic markers,that assilimated later to what we call Minoans/Mycenaeans etc.About Proto-Greeks i mention it above,it is impossible a language like this to come in balkans without a R1a/R1b population.You don't believe that steppe females forced neolithic/copper age non IE males to speak an IE dialect right?That seems an extreme case.

Johnny ola
02-10-2021, 02:17 PM
There could have been a switch on the way, somewhere between Moldova and Northern Greece to a higher proportion of J2a in particular. This is possible, but the question is what is "Proto-Greek" in this context? The tribe still on the steppe? The tribe on the move? The group living in what is now Bulgaria most likely? Or the ones which actually entered Greece? The latter could have been J2a dominated, but rather unlikely they had no R1(b) lineage.

There is no way females to forced males to speak a foreign dialect.What happened with proto-greek IMO is that these males were a 'small elite warrior clan' and during the periods their lineages vanished mixing badly with the natives.A similar case with anatolian Turks.They have limited to almost zero 'Turkoman' lineages.Their autosomal is there,but their yDNA markers are not.We can see this with the recent samples from Northern Greece.

ShpataEMadhe
02-10-2021, 02:27 PM
The ancient DNA is scarce. However if you have followed this forum you might have heard some rumors of yet to be published data that confirms presence of R-Z2103 among the Mycenaeans. Of course this is yet to be officialized however modern Greeks and especially Armenians have have quite a lot of R-Z2103, NOT the western R1b. How did it arrive there? The Greek R-Z2103 is diverse just to mention in order someone tries to connect it to more recent R-BY611 which is of Albanian origin and spread throughout the Balkans with the Albanian migrations.



Nothing can be said for certain when it comes to an extinct language which is examined mainly with the help of toponyms and patronyms and which relies on reconstructed words. What the evidence suggests so far is that there is quite a similarities with the modern Baltic languages than anything else. Moreso than with other Balkan languages such as Greek or Albanian. There is a lot of material on the matter. I am aware of quite many linguists who support all this. Can you tell us something more which we don't know and who is opposing this view in particular?

Rumours but we need facts. The date is also important if its around 1200bc the r1b could be from dorian invasion instead of proper ancient greeks. What are the frequencies of z2103 among modern Greeks and Armenians?

z2103 is still a mystery as is v13, it is difficult to say which one possibly formed thracian or illyrian culture without ancient dna - we need ancient dna from Bulgaria and Romania to determine a source - as far as I'm aware thracian language has little identity left today as Romania became fully romanized and then had hefty South slavic input and Bulgarians speak a South slavic language. It is unlikely that much thracian y dna remains today though they did intermingle with ancient Greeks and gave them the Dionysian and Orphean cults, so could find some there or maybe Thracians became Armenians?

J Man
02-10-2021, 02:40 PM
There is no way females to forced males to speak a foreign dialect.What happened with proto-greek IMO is that these males were a 'small elite warrior clan' and during the periods their lineages vanished mixing badly with the natives.A similar case with anatolian Turks.They have limited to almost zero 'Turkoman' lineages.Their autosomal is there,but their yDNA markers are not.We can see this with the recent samples from Northern Greece.

There is more Central Asian Turkic Y-DNA in Anatolia than you think. Some of the J2a among Anatolian Turks is of Turkish origin . Same goes for R1a and R1b as well in that some of the classes there came with Turkic groups. Very likely all of the N and Q is from Central Asian Turkic groups as well.

J Man
02-10-2021, 02:44 PM
There could have been a switch on the way, somewhere between Moldova and Northern Greece to a higher proportion of J2a in particular. This is possible, but the question is what is "Proto-Greek" in this context? The tribe still on the steppe? The tribe on the move? The group living in what is now Bulgaria most likely? Or the ones which actually entered Greece? The latter could have been J2a dominated, but rather unlikely they had no R1(b) lineage.

Isn't it more likely that the the majority of J2a among ancient Greeks came from the pre-IE groups that lived in Greece before the proto-Greek speakers arrived?

Riverman
02-10-2021, 02:55 PM
Isn't it more likely that the the majority of J2a among ancient Greeks came from the pre-IE groups that lived in Greece before the proto-Greek speakers arrived?

I think it works out like that:
On top of the Neolithic inhabitants came from Asia minor colonists which were heavy in Iranian-like ancestry and spread Minoan-related people. From these the majority of J2 in modern groups is coming from, but before those J2 already spread and with them too, further up the North. When a fairly small group of steppe agro-pastoralists came in, they fused with those and formed Proto-Greeks to the North of what is Greece, probably in Romania-Bulgaria. When the next push from the steppe came, this most likely R1b+J2 Proto-Greeks moved South and conquered Greece, where they mixed with people being even more J. Those were the Mycenaeans.
The next push was a fusion of such R1b-J2 early Greeks with new Urnfield-related elements coming with Illyrians and especially Thracians. This fused groups, mainly assocaited with Dorians, would be heavy E-V13 and introduced it to Greece on a big scale. Yet even afterwards E-V13 would have continued to trickle in, especially with Thracians, and in the North in particular. The former, more R1b heavy Mycenaean elite would have been pushed down the ranks and being not as numerous from the start, also the incoming J2 would have been less numerous than the local ones. I guess latest with the Thracians some R1a should have spread too, alongside E-V13, brought in by Iranian-related groups. On a low level of course. Part of the "Slavic-like" ancestry might be more ancient and related to Thraco-Cimmerians and Iranians too I guess.

J Man
02-10-2021, 03:05 PM
I think it works out like that:
On top of the Neolithic inhabitants came from Asia minor colonists which were heavy in Iranian-like ancestry and spread Minoan-related people. From these the majority of J2 in modern groups is coming from, but before those J2 already spread and with them too, further up the North. When a fairly small group of steppe agro-pastoralists came in, they fused with those and formed Proto-Greeks to the North of what is Greece, probably in Romania-Bulgaria. When the next push from the steppe came, this most likely R1b+J2 Proto-Greeks moved South and conquered Greece, where they mixed with people being even more J. Those were the Mycenaeans.
The next push was a fusion of such R1b-J2 early Greeks with new Urnfield-related elements coming with Illyrians and especially Thracians. This fused groups, mainly assocaited with Dorians, would be heavy E-V13 and introduced it to Greece on a big scale. Yet even afterwards E-V13 would have continued to trickle in, especially with Thracians, and in the North in particular. The former, more R1b heavy Mycenaean elite would have been pushed down the ranks and being not as numerous from the start, also the incoming J2 would have been less numerous than the local ones. I guess latest with the Thracians some R1a should have spread too, alongside E-V13, brought in by Iranian-related groups. On a low level of course. Part of the "Slavic-like" ancestry might be more ancient and related to Thraco-Cimmerians and Iranians too I guess.

Hopefully we get some more ancient Balkan Y-DNA within the next few months. I am interested in seeing what the Y-DNA haplogroup profiles of the Thracians, Illyrians and Dacians are. I have seen some information on here indicating that the upcoming Thracian results are E-V13 heavy.

Riverman
02-10-2021, 03:13 PM
Hopefully we get some more ancient Balkan Y-DNA within the next few months. I am interested in seeing what the Y-DNA haplogroup profiles of the Thracians, Illyrians and Dacians are. I have seen some information on here indicating that the upcoming Thracian results are E-V13 heavy.

They must be, that's like a puzzle, we have enough pieces, and the remaining gaps can't be anything, they must fill in. So Thracians must be very E-V13 heavy and since they were formed by massive influx from the North and East, that's the direction we have to look for and the main movement seems to have been Fluted Ware and especially Gįva-Holigrady in the LBA-EIA transition. Dacians should be more Cimmerian-Iranian shifted, so more R1b and R1a relatively, but the same influences range from Dacians down to Northern Greece, just the ratio of R1a : E-V13 : R1b : J2a will change, because that depends on the first vs. last stratum from a North -> South direction. However, the whole picture gets complicated by fusions and clans which participated in later strata, even though coming from earlier movements originally. Like I expect J2a both coming in with early Greeks and being present before.
The real question is not whether Thracians have E-V13 therefore, because if not that would be such a huge surprise, but where they got it from EXACTLY.

Johnny ola
02-10-2021, 03:26 PM
There is more Central Asian Turkic Y-DNA in Anatolia than you think. Some of the J2a among Anatolian Turks is of Turkish origin . Same goes for R1a and R1b as well in that some of the classes there came with Turkic groups. Very likely all of the N and Q is from Central Asian Turkic groups as well.

No they are Not. I have checked them many times. Onur Dincer Witch is the expert In Turkish genetics have mention it as Well. The Turkoman lineages Are very rare among modern Turks. The vast majority of their J2a Are of native stock. Similar case with R1a and R1b

J Man
02-10-2021, 03:38 PM
No they are Not. I have checked them many times. Onur Dincer Witch is the expert In Turkish genetics have mention it as Well. The Turkoman lineages Are very rare among modern Turks. The vast majority of their J2a Are of native stock. Similar case with R1a and R1b

You wrote this earlier "They have limited to almost zero 'Turkoman' lineages"....The true Turkic lineages are a minority but they are not definitely not zero.

ShpataEMadhe
02-10-2021, 04:00 PM
Isn't it more likely that the the majority of J2a among ancient Greeks came from the pre-IE groups that lived in Greece before the proto-Greek speakers arrived?

R1b doesn't make sense with ancient Greeks

1. Modern Greeks have little of it
2. J2a is widespread in south Italy, r1b isn't
3. Only j2a and g2 have been found in ancient Greek period so far

Forget linguistic theories, dna tells us the truth and right now as it stands early ancient greeks were j2a and g2 people

Johnny ola
02-10-2021, 04:03 PM
You wrote this earlier "They have limited to almost zero 'Turkoman' lineages"....The true Turkic lineages are a minority but they are not definitely not zero.

For the number of their population its really low. Definitely not more than 3-5% of the population.

Riverman
02-10-2021, 04:09 PM
R1b doesn't make sense with ancient Greeks

1. Modern Greeks have little of it
2. J2a is widespread in south Italy, r1b isn't
3. Only j2a and g2 have been found in ancient Greek period so far

Forget linguistic theories, dna tells us the truth and right now as it stands early ancient greeks were j2a and g2 people

Wait for Mycenaean Greeks, especially elite burials being sampled in larger numbers and for their direct ancestors from the steppe in their station on the way around the Carpathians South. Those matters, not moderns. And even among ancient Greeks, the massive Dorian influx could have shifted everything. If losing, elites can either fuse with the newly incoming people, usually if the old structures being kept alive, like for Mycenaeans, Hittites and Indo-Aryans, or if its a tribal replacement, the old elite can be hit the hardest. I guess Mycenaean elite was hit very hard by the dark ages already and the influx of Dorians and Thracians.

Coldmountains
02-10-2021, 04:11 PM
R1b doesn't make sense with ancient Greeks

1. Modern Greeks have little of it
2. J2a is widespread in south Italy, r1b isn't
3. Only j2a and g2 have been found in ancient Greek period so far

Forget linguistic theories, dna tells us the truth and right now as it stands early ancient greeks were j2a and g2 people

well modern dna is often misleading here because of founder effects, sample bias and genetic substrates/adstrates. I don't see Proto-Greeks without any R1b and R1b-Z2103, because way or another Proto-Greeks will be ultimately derived from the southwestern steppe, which was rich in R1b-Z2103. We already have found R1b in many cultures of the ancient balkan and the lack of it among the very ancient samples from Greece can be rather explained by the low sample size and many of them lacking steppe ancestry in the first place or being very rich in local ancestry. The question in my eyes is rather which deeper subclades of Z2103 can be associated with Proto-Greeks and which non-R1b clades were brought by Proto-Greeks from the north. Considering how many surprises we have seen in ancient dna it could often be something, which is now (almost) extinct in Greece

ShpataEMadhe
02-10-2021, 04:24 PM
well modern dna is often misleading here because of founder effects, sample bias and genetic substrates/adstrates. I don't see Proto-Greeks without any R1b and R1b-Z2103, because way or another Proto-Greeks will be ultimately derived from the southwestern steppe, which was rich in R1b-Z2103. We already have found R1b in many cultures of the ancient balkan and the lack of it among the very ancient samples from Greece can be rather explained by the low sample size and many of them lacking steppe ancestry in the first place or being very rich in local ancestry. The question in my eyes is rather which deeper subclades of Z2103 can be associated with Proto-Greeks and which non-R1b clades were brought by Proto-Greeks from the north. Considering how many surprises we have seen in ancient dna it could often be something, which is now (almost) extinct in Greece

Where is the link for ancient greeks being from the steppe? What makes you believe that so strongly?

In terms of v13 in late ancient greece there would have been some of it as can be evidenced below with modern dna - v13 is currently non existent in early periods of proper ancient greece itself but may have been brought there from either dorians, illyrians or thracians, the mystery of v13 continues

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/#!po=37.0968

Riverman
02-10-2021, 04:33 PM
well modern dna is often misleading here because of founder effects, sample bias and genetic substrates/adstrates. I don't see Proto-Greeks without any R1b and R1b-Z2103, because way or another Proto-Greeks will be ultimately derived from the southwestern steppe, which was rich in R1b-Z2103. We already have found R1b in many cultures of the ancient balkan and the lack of it among the very ancient samples from Greece can be rather explained by the low sample size and many of them lacking steppe ancestry in the first place or being very rich in local ancestry. The question in my eyes is rather which deeper subclades of Z2103 can be associated with Proto-Greeks and which non-R1b clades were brought by Proto-Greeks from the north. Considering how many surprises we have seen in ancient dna it could often be something, which is now (almost) extinct in Greece

Indeed, R1b was likely marching South with Cernavoda and Proto-Anatolians before. So not every R1b found must be Greek, unless its clearly associated with Greek language speakers of the Mycenaean period in particular and even then some might have been assimilated local elites. For the final verdict the whole migration path needs to be reconstructed with pre- and post-comparisons.

Huban
02-10-2021, 04:42 PM
Of course we can spot this discrepancy but I'm not sure that CTS1273 moved from West Balkans to East as you was saying before. Otherwise how would you explain the existence of E-BY6550 in North-Western Europe and none in the Balkans? It's very probable that this lineage was part of the CWC expansion and this didn't took place through the Balkans but rather from the western outskirts of the PC steppe, upwards following the eastern slopes of the Carpathians into the Baltic region and Poland. So it's very probable that E-BY6550 was assimilated somewhere on that path, somewhere around the Carpathians. In that sense, I think of E-V13 as an ultra Carpathian haplogroup, it was somewhere around the Carpathians when it was assimilated by CWC groups, not Yamnaya as you was suggesting before. Yamnaya was more like the ancestor of the first groups of Indo-Europeans in the Balkans that gave birth of the Anatolian, Greek, Armenian languages. As we all start to agree that E-V13 was very represented among the Thracian-Getae-Dacian groups and we already have seen published samples of some of these and heard rumors of unpublished yet samples, we get a clear picture of E-V13 as an ultra Carpathian group in accordance with the places inhabited by Dacians-Getae-Thracians people. What little we know about the Thracian language there is no doubt it was a close relative of the Baltic languages which of course should be descendants of some earlier CWC language that was spoken by some CWC groups. According to Ivan Duridanov, of about 200 reconstructed Thracian words, most cognates (138) appear in the Baltic languages, mostly in Lithuanian, followed by Germanic (61). Therefore we can assume that Thracian language was the language of some CWC people and E-V13 was most probably indo-europenized by CWC groups, NOT Yamnaya ones who should have been the ancestors of the proto-Greeks, Anatolians and Armenians.

Of course Yamnaya groups are behind the Armenian, Greek, and Albanian too.. I find it unlikely that an early branch of V13 which is very diverse in W.Balkans has nothing to do with the Cardial Neolithic remnant present there and which took part in ethnogenesis of some EBA cultures.. Years ago I remember people predicting based on Spanish Cardial V13 result that the Dalmatian Cardials, including, other descendant cultures will be V13. And it was no surprise L618 was found there..

The Steppe element did come in contact with those Cardial survivors and they continued their existence, later forming Cetina culture. This Steppe element is not exactly a clear picture. Some called it Cernavoda III people (so Anatolian speakers), others Yamnaya. But they happen to be related to the so called Balkan epi-Corded Ware pottery, and I believe V13 has certain relation to this phenomenon.

I need to look more closely what those people were exactly.. I believe this fits into the age and phylogeny of V13.

Also of those Carpathian E-V13 some, a minority of them are Vlach incomers in Medieval times.
For ex.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A7065/

Not native there.. Clustering with Albanians, Macedonian Miyak..




These finds were the reason why some maps of Thracians living up to the Baltic shores circulated on internet. Maps such as this one:

Therefore IMO CTS1273 never moved from the West Balkans to the East but rather the ancestor of Y37092 moved to the West Balkans from an area around the Carpathians. Y37092 was probably born in the West Balkans but it's ancestor wasn't native there.

Thracian language might have been related to Baltic but their autosomal profile was very far from those.

Iron Age Thracian and Moldovan Scythianized Getae being closer to IA Anatolian than to proto-Slavs..

Distance to: BGR_IA:I5769
0.08178030 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200
0.13215074 TUR_IA:MA2198
0.17006803 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.10794437 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200
0.12018260 TUR_IA:MA2198
0.13569677 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.09824277 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200
0.10829919 TUR_IA:MA2198
0.13844227 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


And there are some very interesting results when looking at some of these samples actually, which might support my POV.

Huban
02-10-2021, 04:44 PM
Second,EV13 is the dominant male lineage in mainland parts.

Are you aware how many Greek V13's are of recent Albanian or Vlach origin? A whole lot of them..

Riverman
02-10-2021, 04:52 PM
The Steppe element did come in contact with those Cardial survivors and they continued their existence...


So far I agree, but what you forgot is that E1b1b was widespread across Europe in the Neolithic. The Iberian find is a fringe group representatives. More important are Michelsberger, Lengyel-Sopot and Tripolye-Cucuteni. In all these three groups, spanning from France to Ukraine, E1b1b and likely E-V13 as well, was present. The first possible survivor of the steppe expansion being possibly found in the Nitra-culture, related to the Urnfield-networks later. There are also other E1b1b clades which seem to have survived in the North, the specific E-V13 which spread was just a more successful clan, which managed to survive and keep rising in an Epi-Corded Ware environment. You have to look at the TMRCA's, there is very little overlap between the Balkan and other E-V13 clades after the LBA-EIA transition and the Balkan ones are fairly shallow, so they all spread at the same time, to the North and West, as well as the South and East. The ideal centre is the Northern Carpathian zone and apparantly Pannonia too, which later was heavily E-V13, wasn't so in the EBA at all. From the MBA, especially LBA on, the movement of people was going North -> South with mass migrations, not the opposite direction, only in the Roman times. So the natural explanaton is the spread through Urnfield related expansions, not before, not that much afterwards.

The Proto-Thracians were not as North Eastern shifted as Proto-Slavs most likely, but we still need Lusatian and Gįva-Holigrady samples for comparison, which is a problem, because they cremated. However, in the developed IA, they already mixed with locals, so to the original difference, the admixture adds up. Historical Thracians are not necessarily identical to thier unmixed ancestors.

ShpataEMadhe
02-10-2021, 05:04 PM
So far I agree, but what you forgot is that E1b1b was widespread across Europe in the Neolithic. The Iberian find is a fringe group representatives. More important are Michelsberger, Lengyel-Sopot and Tripolye-Cucuteni. In all these three groups, spanning from France to Ukraine, E1b1b and likely E-V13 as well, was present. The first possible survivor of the steppe expansion being possibly found in the Nitra-culture, related to the Urnfield-networks later. There are also other E1b1b clades which seem to have survived in the North, the specific E-V13 which spread was just a more successful clan, which managed to survive and keep rising in an Epi-Corded Ware environment. You have to look at the TMRCA's, there is very little overlap between the Balkan and other E-V13 clades after the LBA-EIA transition and the Balkan ones are fairly shallow, so they all spread at the same time, to the North and West, as well as the South and East. The ideal centre is the Northern Carpathian zone and apparantly Pannonia too, which later was heavily E-V13, wasn't so in the EBA at all. From the MBA, especially LBA on, the movement of people was going North -> South with mass migrations, not the opposite direction, only in the Roman times. So the natural explanaton is the spread through Urnfield related expansions, not before, not that much afterwards.

It is impossible to work with what we have now if we go so far back, looking at people from 6000 years back we get something like this -

In a 2017 genetic study published in Nature, the remains of nine individuals ascribed to the Lengyel culture was analyzed. Of the nine samples of Y-DNA extracted, two belonged to H, one belonged to H1b1, one belonged to I, one belonged to I2, one belonged to G2a2a1, one belonged to J2a, one belonged to C, and one belonged to E1b1b1a1b1. mtDNA extracted were various subclades of U, N, T, H, J, W.

It is cool to know what Europeans lived back then but it doesn't help determine y dna of those who created significant tribes/cultures/languages much later. Most of these people H, H1, G2a, J2a, C etc no longer exist in Central Europe, they were killed off and pushed out at differing periods of time. It doesn't help determine who the greeks, illyrians or thracians were

Johnny ola
02-10-2021, 05:46 PM
Are you aware how many Greek V13's are of recent Albanian or Vlach origin? A whole lot of them..

EV13 in Greece can be from everywhere not just from Vlachs and Albanians and Slavs.Even Pontic Greeks have somewhere 5-7% EV13...and i am really wondering how these lineages ended up there.Anyway,that requires deeper testing and ofc ancient DNA from the LBA/IA period of balkans(inclunding Greece).

Riverman
02-10-2021, 06:01 PM
It is impossible to work with what we have now if we go so far back, looking at people from 6000 years back we get something like this -

In a 2017 genetic study published in Nature, the remains of nine individuals ascribed to the Lengyel culture was analyzed. Of the nine samples of Y-DNA extracted, two belonged to H, one belonged to H1b1, one belonged to I, one belonged to I2, one belonged to G2a2a1, one belonged to J2a, one belonged to C, and one belonged to E1b1b1a1b1. mtDNA extracted were various subclades of U, N, T, H, J, W.

It is cool to know what Europeans lived back then but it doesn't help determine y dna of those who created significant tribes/cultures/languages much later. Most of these people H, H1, G2a, J2a, C etc no longer exist in Central Europe, they were killed off and pushed out at differing periods of time. It doesn't help determine who the greeks, illyrians or thracians were

Modern E-V13 is the result of a huge scale founder effect in the Bronze Age, that is for certain, just look at the TMRCA. Its not like it spread in the Neolithic and survived everywhere, no, it survived primarily in one spot, from which it rose to a more dominant position within the steppified European context, inside Epi-Corded derived networks. That's for sure, that is without alternative. And since the main body of the expansion move down into the Balkans, which was largely E-V13 free before, we have to look for a the place where E-V13 could jump on the Epi-Corded cultural track and evolve from there on, to spread in the directions we see. And the ideal point of departure is around the North Carpathians. Looking for big radiations going from there, we end up in the LBA-EIA transition, Urnfield and Fluted Ware. And that is exactly the timing for the splits!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Check every clade, one by one, the timing is always Bronze Age or later, with the main splits, the biggest diversification happening between the LBA and the EIA. There is practically little to no overlap between the most common Balkan clades and the more Northern ones. This means one movement started, it was in the LBA-EIA transition, in different directions, with just the most successful one going down to the Balkans, most likely with Fluted Ware/Gava, most likely being Proto-Daco-Thracian.

Cetina doesn't fit. How did Cetina constitute Daco-Thracians? Why was Pannonia free of E-V13 at least up to the Middle Bronze Age? Why was the Balkan free of E-V13 up to the LBA-EIA transition? We can't know for 100 percent, but the other options just became extremely unlikely.
What we see is the Balkan was flooded, but from where? Clearly the direction was North -> South.

Read up on Gįva-Holigrady and the early Iron Age. Gįva-Holigrady produced some of the first iron weapons en masse in Europe! They provided themselves and their allies with iron weaponry, being in some places of the North the first of all. That was why E-V13 rose up for a short time so drastically, because their clans became more dominant and specialists from their group spread throughout early Iron Age Europe. The Carpathians were the metal working centre of much of Europe in the Bronze Age, and with Iron the knowledge was spread to local productions on a much broader scale.

You have to come up with a narrative how an so far unsampled, small Balkan group of E-V13 could have moved up against the tide, spread its lineage across much of Europe, with all movements going in the opposite direction. The only chance for a Balkan-story or even Cetina was a much earlier spread, but the results we have so far showed to us, E-V13 wasn't there in time. Its the timing. This option is already dead.

Aspar
02-10-2021, 06:31 PM
Of course Yamnaya groups are behind the Armenian, Greek, and Albanian too.. I find it unlikely that an early branch of V13 which is very diverse in W.Balkans has nothing to do with the Cardial Neolithic remnant present there and which took part in ethnogenesis of some EBA cultures.. Years ago I remember people predicting based on Spanish Cardial V13 result that the Dalmatian Cardials, including, other descendant cultures will be V13. And it was no surprise L618 was found there..

The Steppe element did come in contact with those Cardial survivors and they continued their existence, later forming Cetina culture. This Steppe element is not exactly a clear picture. Some called it Cernavoda III people (so Anatolian speakers), others Yamnaya. But they are happen to be related to the so called Balkan epi-Corded Ware pottery, and I believe V13 has certain relation to this phenomenon.

I need to look more closely what those people were exactly.. I believe this fits into the age and phylogeny of V13.

Also of those Carpathian E-V13 some, a minority of them are Vlach incomers in Medieval times.
For ex.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A7065/

Not native there.. Clustering with Albanians, Macedonian Miyak..




Thracian language might have been related to Baltic but their autosomal profile was very far from those.

Iron Age Thracian and Moldovan Scythianized Getae being closer to IA Anatolian than to proto-Slavs..

Distance to: BGR_IA:I5769
0.08178030 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200
0.13215074 TUR_IA:MA2198
0.17006803 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.10794437 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200
0.12018260 TUR_IA:MA2198
0.13569677 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.09824277 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200
0.10829919 TUR_IA:MA2198
0.13844227 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


And there are some very interesting results when looking at some of these samples actually, which might support my POV.

That's likely not the case imho. Both the genetic picture but the linguist as well don't add much weight on the idea that Albanian descends from some post Yamnaya groups such as the Greek and Armenian do.
First, the ultra Yamnaya haplogroup R-Z2103 is actually not really diverse among the Albanians although this doesn't have to be necessarily a huge point simply because the language and the genetic don't have to go hand in hand although most often than not they do. The very frequently found Albanian lineage under R-Z2103 was just one man in Early Medieval. How this lineage expanded at such a rate is phenomenon on it's own, very much alike I-Y3120 among Slavs. As we see with the case of the Slavs, I-Y3120 was likely not the Indo-European lineage that we can associated with the early Indo-Europeans. I would say that much more important and diverse among the Albanians is R-PF7562. Once we get to know more about this lineage, we might be a bit closer in determining more about the Albanians. It's strange though this lineage as is the case with R-L51, still hasn't been found on the PC steppe in the relevant time of Indo-European expansion in ancient DNA record. Probably it's not coincidence that some isolated R-L51 lineages can be found among the Albanians. Which makes me think that R-PF7562 was among the first steppe people that moved out of the steppe, probably accompanied with some R-L51 lineages. We see that PF7562 is quite strong in West Asia as well which might give a clue that this particular lineage was present among the proto-Anatolians. The Albanians are an interesting case, and their forefathers very likely moved in the Balkans even earlier than the Greeks.
Second, the Albanian language doesn't show such a relationship as the Greek and Armenian do. In fact, the Albanian seems to take a place in between the Greek and Armenian and the Germanic and Balto-Slavic with which it shares number of isoglosses.

We know of that the Cardial culture was rich with E-L618 and E-V13 however as we have seen with the Lengyel or Sopot cultures, E-L618 was found there as well. We also have E-M78 in Cucuteni-Tryppilia. And we can't just ignore that minor and earlier split downstream of E-V13 which because of the reasons I already mentioned, gives credence of an earlier assimilation somewhere close to PC steppe. Such a place can only be around the Carpathians.

As for that E-A7065, how do we know it's actually of Vlach origin and not some Latin speaking Roman or remnant of the Chernyakhov culture and of Dacian origin? Furthermore, the Latin language of the Romanians probably arrived from somewhere in Serbia or Bulgaria during Early Medieval.

IA Bulgaria and those 'Scythians' of very likely local origin are not relevant for the time when allegedly Carpathian people moved south during the LBA as those are IA samples and very likely mixed with already settled population. And the people who moved south were very likely as MJ12, the 'Cimmerian'. Also very similar to the proto-Villanovan who might have a similar origin. They don't have to be Baltic like at all. The steppe in this samples is already very high. But it's not coincidence that they are more Mediterranean like if we assume that E-V13 rich population mixed with the Indo-Europeans which is what we assume it happened.

ShpataEMadhe
02-10-2021, 08:00 PM
Modern E-V13 is the result of a huge scale founder effect in the Bronze Age, that is for certain, just look at the TMRCA. Its not like it spread in the Neolithic and survived everywhere, no, it survived primarily in one spot, from which it rose to a more dominant position within the steppified European context, inside Epi-Corded derived networks. That's for sure, that is without alternative. And since the main body of the expansion move down into the Balkans, which was largely E-V13 free before, we have to look for a the place where E-V13 could jump on the Epi-Corded cultural track and evolve from there on, to spread in the directions we see. And the ideal point of departure is around the North Carpathians. Looking for big radiations going from there, we end up in the LBA-EIA transition, Urnfield and Fluted Ware. And that is exactly the timing for the splits!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Check every clade, one by one, the timing is always Bronze Age or later, with the main splits, the biggest diversification happening between the LBA and the EIA. There is practically little to no overlap between the most common Balkan clades and the more Northern ones. This means one movement started, it was in the LBA-EIA transition, in different directions, with just the most successful one going down to the Balkans, most likely with Fluted Ware/Gava, most likely being Proto-Daco-Thracian.

Cetina doesn't fit. How did Cetina constitute Daco-Thracians? Why was Pannonia free of E-V13 at least up to the Middle Bronze Age? Why was the Balkan free of E-V13 up to the LBA-EIA transition? We can't know for 100 percent, but the other options just became extremely unlikely.
What we see is the Balkan was flooded, but from where? Clearly the direction was North -> South.

Read up on Gįva-Holigrady and the early Iron Age. Gįva-Holigrady produced some of the first iron weapons en masse in Europe! They provided themselves and their allies with iron weaponry, being in some places of the North the first of all. That was why E-V13 rose up for a short time so drastically, because their clans became more dominant and specialists from their group spread throughout early Iron Age Europe. The Carpathians were the metal working centre of much of Europe in the Bronze Age, and with Iron the knowledge was spread to local productions on a much broader scale.

You have to come up with a narrative how an so far unsampled, small Balkan group of E-V13 could have moved up against the tide, spread its lineage across much of Europe, with all movements going in the opposite direction. The only chance for a Balkan-story or even Cetina was a much earlier spread, but the results we have so far showed to us, E-V13 wasn't there in time. Its the timing. This option is already dead.

This is all speculation at this point until we get ancient dna. As of today where is the earliest v13?

What we do know is v13 is found in small pockets of Pakistan where Alexander the Greats army travelled to and this was in 300 BC so v13 is not just older than 300BC in balkans but it must be a few hundred years older before it had influence on greece

North to South migrations are still speculative without ancient dna, v13 could have easily come through anatolia into East Europe and settled in West Balkans spreading into North making contact with proto Germans and proto Celts, the question is always when. What I find odd is complete lack of conflict between Thracians and illyrians, its as if they were related or the same people

Riverman
02-10-2021, 08:06 PM
North to South migrations are still speculative without ancient dna, v13 could have easily come through anatolia into East Europe and settled in West Balkans spreading into North making contact with proto Germans and proto Celts

I thought about that too and there is only one phenomenon interesting in this respect, which is the so called Grey Ware. But even if there were people migrating with it in some places, the distribution and impact doesn't fit, the results we got so far doesn't. So there is, to put it that way, no currently known better options, which makes the Urnfield expansion simply the most likely scenario at the moment. But of course, until its proven by actual samples, it remains speculative, even if the available evidence suggests so.

Hawk
02-10-2021, 08:10 PM
That's likely not the case imho. Both the genetic picture but the linguist as well don't add much weight on the idea that Albanian descends from some post Yamnaya groups such as the Greek and Armenian do.
First, the ultra Yamnaya haplogroup R-Z2103 is actually not really diverse among the Albanians although this doesn't have to be necessarily a huge point simply because the language and the genetic don't have to go hand in hand although most often than not they do. The very frequently found Albanian lineage under R-Z2103 was just one man in Early Medieval. How this lineage expanded at such a rate is phenomenon on it's own, very much alike I-Y3120 among Slavs. As we see with the case of the Slavs, I-Y3120 was likely not the Indo-European lineage that we can associated with the early Indo-Europeans. I would say that much more important and diverse among the Albanians is R-PF7562. Once we get to know more about this lineage, we might be a bit closer in determining more about the Albanians. It's strange though this lineage as is the case with R-L51, still hasn't been found on the PC steppe in the relevant time of Indo-European expansion in ancient DNA record. Probably it's not coincidence that some isolated R-L51 lineages can be found among the Albanians. Which makes me think that R-PF7562 was among the first steppe people that moved out of the steppe, probably accompanied with some R-L51 lineages. We see that PF7562 is quite strong in West Asia as well which might give a clue that this particular lineage was present among the proto-Anatolians. The Albanians are an interesting case, and their forefathers very likely moved in the Balkans even earlier than the Greeks.
Second, the Albanian language doesn't show such a relationship as the Greek and Armenian do. In fact, the Albanian seems to take a place in between the Greek and Armenian and the Germanic and Balto-Slavic with which it shares number of isoglosses.

We know of that the Cardial culture was rich with E-L618 and E-V13 however as we have seen with the Lengyel or Sopot cultures, E-L618 was found there as well. We also have E-M78 in Cucuteni-Tryppilia. And we can't just ignore that minor and earlier split downstream of E-V13 which because of the reasons I already mentioned, gives credence of an earlier assimilation somewhere close to PC steppe. Such a place can only be around the Carpathians.

As for that E-A7065, how do we know it's actually of Vlach origin and not some Latin speaking Roman or remnant of the Chernyakhov culture and of Dacian origin? Furthermore, the Latin language of the Romanians probably arrived from somewhere in Serbia or Bulgaria during Early Medieval.

IA Bulgaria and those 'Scythians' of very likely local origin are not relevant for the time when allegedly Carpathian people moved south during the LBA as those are IA samples and very likely mixed with already settled population. And the people who moved south were very likely as MJ12, the 'Cimmerian'. Also very similar to the proto-Villanovan who might have a similar origin. They don't have to be Baltic like at all. The steppe in this samples is already very high. But it's not coincidence that they are more Mediterranean like if we assume that E-V13 rich population mixed with the Indo-Europeans which is what we assume it happened.

I find it very interesting that Apuglians where Messapians lived don't have R1b-Z2103 or J2b2 but E-V13 Z5018 and R-PF7562 can be found among them.

ShpataEMadhe
02-10-2021, 08:39 PM
That's likely not the case imho. Both the genetic picture but the linguist as well don't add much weight on the idea that Albanian descends from some post Yamnaya groups such as the Greek and Armenian do.
First, the ultra Yamnaya haplogroup R-Z2103 is actually not really diverse among the Albanians although this doesn't have to be necessarily a huge point simply because the language and the genetic don't have to go hand in hand although most often than not they do. The very frequently found Albanian lineage under R-Z2103 was just one man in Early Medieval. How this lineage expanded at such a rate is phenomenon on it's own, very much alike I-Y3120 among Slavs. As we see with the case of the Slavs, I-Y3120 was likely not the Indo-European lineage that we can associated with the early Indo-Europeans. I would say that much more important and diverse among the Albanians is R-PF7562. Once we get to know more about this lineage, we might be a bit closer in determining more about the Albanians. It's strange though this lineage as is the case with R-L51, still hasn't been found on the PC steppe in the relevant time of Indo-European expansion in ancient DNA record. Probably it's not coincidence that some isolated R-L51 lineages can be found among the Albanians. Which makes me think that R-PF7562 was among the first steppe people that moved out of the steppe, probably accompanied with some R-L51 lineages. We see that PF7562 is quite strong in West Asia as well which might give a clue that this particular lineage was present among the proto-Anatolians. The Albanians are an interesting case, and their forefathers very likely moved in the Balkans even earlier than the Greeks.
Second, the Albanian language doesn't show such a relationship as the Greek and Armenian do. In fact, the Albanian seems to take a place in between the Greek and Armenian and the Germanic and Balto-Slavic with which it shares number of isoglosses.

We know of that the Cardial culture was rich with E-L618 and E-V13 however as we have seen with the Lengyel or Sopot cultures, E-L618 was found there as well. We also have E-M78 in Cucuteni-Tryppilia. And we can't just ignore that minor and earlier split downstream of E-V13 which because of the reasons I already mentioned, gives credence of an earlier assimilation somewhere close to PC steppe. Such a place can only be around the Carpathians.

As for that E-A7065, how do we know it's actually of Vlach origin and not some Latin speaking Roman or remnant of the Chernyakhov culture and of Dacian origin? Furthermore, the Latin language of the Romanians probably arrived from somewhere in Serbia or Bulgaria during Early Medieval.

IA Bulgaria and those 'Scythians' of very likely local origin are not relevant for the time when allegedly Carpathian people moved south during the LBA as those are IA samples and very likely mixed with already settled population. And the people who moved south were very likely as MJ12, the 'Cimmerian'. Also very similar to the proto-Villanovan who might have a similar origin. They don't have to be Baltic like at all. The steppe in this samples is already very high. But it's not coincidence that they are more Mediterranean like if we assume that E-V13 rich population mixed with the Indo-Europeans which is what we assume it happened.

Founder effect is an interesting theory that can be applied in many ways but most important factor is language. In terms of balkans founder effects were regular not just due to many wars but also the way the tribes moved in small numbers.

'This moutaineous country was not cavalry-friendly, and smallscale settlements and villages prevented the formation of large, well-organized armies. Illyrian warfare was all about mobility, fluidity of small warbands, mostly armed as peltasts. Tactically they operated very much like the Thracians. However in addition to the latter, Illyrians also were famous for their ships"

In terms of Albanian language, in order for it to survive it means the bulk of the founders (founder effect) had to speak the same language. If you look at Romanian today it was heavily changed from Thracian and Bulgarian basically has nothing to do with Thracians anymore they speak south slavic language. The point is East Europeans lost their language to more populous groups that moved in/extreme culture shift and I believe there is a lot less thracian y dna left in those regions today whereas in Albania and Greece you will find more y dna from previous balkan inhabitants due to the languages they speak.

I think we should study previously inhabited thracian regions for possible y dna links, even small percentage clades such as pre south slavic r1a could be remnants of thracians

Aspar
02-10-2021, 09:18 PM
I find it very interesting that Apuglians where Messapians lived don't have R1b-Z2103 or J2b2 but E-V13 Z5018 and R-PF7562 can be found among them.

I would like a see a detailed view of the subclades in Italy, not just a generic nomenclature such as R1b or J2a. Is there a detailed analysis that can be found online? I would really like to see it.

By the way, I don't really think we can say that there is no R-Z2103 in Apuglia at all. Just a quick look at YFULL tree and various Italians from that region are observable.
For example:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS699/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y30192/

Hawk
02-10-2021, 11:11 PM
I would like a see a detailed view of the subclades in Italy, not just a generic nomenclature such as R1b or J2a. Is there a detailed analysis that can be found online? I would really like to see it.

By the way, I don't really think we can say that there is no R-Z2103 in Apuglia at all. Just a quick look at YFULL tree and various Italians from that region are observable.
For example:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS699/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y30192/

There was a thread here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11853-Puglia-Y-DNA

Small sample size 41, but better something than nothing.

This is E-V13: 4 E-Y3183, 1 E-L17 and 1 E-FGC11457

E-V13 Z5018 subclade mostly found in Western Europe and E-V13 => Z5018 => S2979 subclades.

Huban
02-11-2021, 05:09 AM
That's likely not the case imho. Both the genetic picture but the linguist as well don't add much weight on the idea that Albanian descends from some post Yamnaya groups such as the Greek and Armenian do.
First, the ultra Yamnaya haplogroup R-Z2103 is actually not really diverse among the Albanians although this doesn't have to be necessarily a huge point simply because the language and the genetic don't have to go hand in hand although most often than not they do. The very frequently found Albanian lineage under R-Z2103 was just one man in Early Medieval. How this lineage expanded at such a rate is phenomenon on it's own, very much alike I-Y3120 among Slavs. As we see with the case of the Slavs, I-Y3120 was likely not the Indo-European lineage that we can associated with the early Indo-Europeans. I would say that much more important and diverse among the Albanians is R-PF7562. Once we get to know more about this lineage, we might be a bit closer in determining more about the Albanians. It's strange though this lineage as is the case with R-L51, still hasn't been found on the PC steppe in the relevant time of Indo-European expansion in ancient DNA record. Probably it's not coincidence that some isolated R-L51 lineages can be found among the Albanians. Which makes me think that R-PF7562 was among the first steppe people that moved out of the steppe, probably accompanied with some R-L51 lineages. We see that PF7562 is quite strong in West Asia as well which might give a clue that this particular lineage was present among the proto-Anatolians. The Albanians are an interesting case, and their forefathers very likely moved in the Balkans even earlier than the Greeks.
Second, the Albanian language doesn't show such a relationship as the Greek and Armenian do. In fact, the Albanian seems to take a place in between the Greek and Armenian and the Germanic and Balto-Slavic with which it shares number of isoglosses.

We know of that the Cardial culture was rich with E-L618 and E-V13 however as we have seen with the Lengyel or Sopot cultures, E-L618 was found there as well. We also have E-M78 in Cucuteni-Tryppilia. And we can't just ignore that minor and earlier split downstream of E-V13 which because of the reasons I already mentioned, gives credence of an earlier assimilation somewhere close to PC steppe. Such a place can only be around the Carpathians.

As for that E-A7065, how do we know it's actually of Vlach origin and not some Latin speaking Roman or remnant of the Chernyakhov culture and of Dacian origin? Furthermore, the Latin language of the Romanians probably arrived from somewhere in Serbia or Bulgaria during Early Medieval.

IA Bulgaria and those 'Scythians' of very likely local origin are not relevant for the time when allegedly Carpathian people moved south during the LBA as those are IA samples and very likely mixed with already settled population. And the people who moved south were very likely as MJ12, the 'Cimmerian'. Also very similar to the proto-Villanovan who might have a similar origin. They don't have to be Baltic like at all. The steppe in this samples is already very high. But it's not coincidence that they are more Mediterranean like if we assume that E-V13 rich population mixed with the Indo-Europeans which is what we assume it happened.

Indeed PF7563 has more basal diversity in Albanians. But it is not possible to connect Albanian with Anatolian languages (to whom PF7562 is surely connected despite the lack of aDNA results). Nevertheless R-Z2705 is a very widespread branch found in all Albanian groups, and one can say probably they originated the language. Albanian does show some distant Armenian and Greek connections from what I know.

Albanian is probably related to Messapian, and it seems that language was not proper Illyrian, could have been an Illyrian creole with a proto-Dardanian/proto-Paeonian base, in LBA some of these people were pushed from the central Balkans to Southern Albania by Urnfield movements and there another Illyrian culture was formed separate and different from Glasinac-Mati (Illyrian proper). Either that or Bessi with Dardano-Paeonian-Thracian creole. There were peoples other than Illyrians and Thracians, such as Dardanians and Paeonians who were related according to archeological evidence. These were a pre-LBA collapse people. And I really find it difficult to believe these didn't carry some V13 branches.

Some E-V13 branches such as E-Y3183 don't seem "Urnfield" at all, there are three separate Bulgarian Y3183* clades with a MBA TRMCA, in addition to some Y3183 downstreams clades there. It resembles more Zimnicea-Plovdiv than anything else.

E-A7065 is found in a Romanian and Rusyn who is 8/67 with Albanians. In cluster with Rusyn are few others such as Hungarian with a Serb surname and also one Romanian from study. So Romanians in this clade are very suspect with regards to being Dacian. There is another Romanian at FTDNA who is E-PH1280 in cluster with Albanians. Generally it seems plenty of Vlach migrants from the South among their Z5018, more natives it seems among CTS9320.

There are some interesting results from there for example they have both clades of E-Y35953 on a weak sample. Only Poles of ethnicities in the area have as much.

The crucial point is that you and others take W.European V13 as relevant. Of course we can find British in just about every branch of V13, it doesn't mean it originates from there. Westerners must show structure in their clades, and I can tell you I know of various their clades which are clearly Roman. And after the sample increases in SE Europe we shall see how many of them will not have matches in SE Europe.. W.European show signs of being very scattered, they often fail to achieve higher TMRCA in their branches (of course they can't if they came with the Romans).. On the other hand in SE Europe there are plenty of structured branches.

It is silly to look at the current YFull tree with two Romanian samples, with 3 Greeks (more at FTDNA, most didn't upload to YFull). Albanians are best deep tested but they too have some additional samples/clades. FTDNA tree is also chaotic, it places in upstream clades people who only tested few SNP's so one thinks they are some basals when in fact many are way downstream. I know enough of Romanian and Greek V13 to add more than 40 Romanian and Greek flags each, in addition to other various SE European samples. And then you would see the whole picture. You'd see how actually diverse V13 is.

Hawk
02-11-2021, 07:33 AM
Albanian is more frequently posited somewhere between Germanic and Balto-Slavic to be honest. The most recent opinions like linguist Trumper thinking Albanian is a Central European language which linguistic bearers must have lived near by Germanic and Celtic people.

Second less popular opinion is about a common origin with Armenian and Greek. R1b-Z2103 subclades connecting Armenian, Greek and Albanian would make perfect sense, but i still have no explanation how it drastically decreased to extinction during LBA/IA, i suspect E-V13 expansion and boom decreased the R1b-Z2103 in the Balkans by mass.

Rrenjet.
02-11-2021, 08:14 AM
R-PF7563 is clearly more diverse in Albanians than R-CTS9219 is, however Albanians have several R-CTS9219 (xBY611) lines too. I recommend that you check the tree in our article on CTS9219 to see some results that are not on YFull. All the available data until now points to a BY611 origin around the Pannonian Basin, maybe its western parts, during BA or IA. You could argue some E-V13 branches have similar distribution and diversity.

Puglia has some R-Z2103, including a R-Z2108 Late Medieval sample from Foggia.

Hawk
02-11-2021, 08:45 AM
R-PF7563 is clearly more diverse in Albanians than R-CTS9219 is, however Albanians have several R-CTS9219 (xBY611) lines too. I recommend that you check the tree in our article on CTS9219 to see some results that are not on YFull. All the available data until now points to a BY611 origin around the Pannonian Basin, maybe its western parts, during BA or IA. You could argue some E-V13 branches have similar distribution and diversity.

Puglia has some R-Z2103, including a R-Z2108 Late Medieval sample from Foggia.

I do admit that we do underestimate the complexity of subclades. R1B-BY611 spreading from Pannonian Basin western parts during BA/IA? That means somewhere from Western Hungary and Eastern Alps.

Hawk
02-11-2021, 08:48 AM
I do like Riverman's approach on deducing the movement of people during Bronze Age.

Middle Bronze Age to Late Bronze Age was a huge thing going on in Europe, especially the Balkans. If not for E-V13 then we should look for another Y-DNA which benefited from this transition. But so far we don't have any better candidate which corresponds with mutations during this period.

Riverman
02-11-2021, 09:00 AM
The crucial point is that you and others take W.European V13 as relevant. Of course we can find British in just about every branch of V13, it doesn't mean it originates from there. Westerners must show structure in their clades, and I can tell you I know of various their clades which are clearly Roman. And after the sample increases in SE Europe we shall see how many of them will not have matches in SE Europe.. W.European show signs of being very scattered, they often fail to achieve higher TMRCA in their branches (of course they can't if they came with the Romans).. On the other hand in SE Europe there are plenty of structured branches.

The point is rather that we deal with independent branches which separated from each other in the LBA-EIA for the most part. And yes, E-V13 is only a small minority in the very West of Europe, but I'd say most of it came in with the Celts. And if you say it came with the Romans, some subclades surely came in Roman times, that's true, but also later, with Anglo-Saxons, with Vikings, Normans, continental immigrants. But check how many came in Roman times without a closer connection to NCE in the West. I tried to find at least some clades, because like I said, there must be some, but couldn't find any. And while I totally agree that the sample density is much too low in places like Greece and Bulgaria, it also is in places like Poland, much of Germany, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary etc., and even worse in Romania, Moldova and Ukraine. It won't be possible to explain the vast majority of NCE and WE clades by Roman Age migrations, because if that would be the case, we would have proven the case for many of the subclades already.

For single ones it will pop up, probably even for a certain percentage, but not for all, not even the majority, which will be proven to be IA in the West. Crucial is Hallstatt. Show me all the clades which have a TMRCA after Hallstatt and in historical times, connecting the Balkan with the West. If that would be the case, there should be plenty to show already, not just single ones, and I don't even see a single one so far.

Edit: Actually I expect some overlaps of TMRCA to point to Celtic migrations to Pannonia and the Balkans, even beyond, rather than the opposite. These should be present too, like Roman migrants to Britain. But both being primarily add ons to the really big movements of the LBA-EIA and the regional variation established by these shifts.

Aspar
02-11-2021, 12:18 PM
Indeed PF7563 has more basal diversity in Albanians. But it is not possible to connect Albanian with Anatolian languages (to whom PF7562 is surely connected despite the lack of aDNA results). Nevertheless R-Z2705 is a very widespread branch found in all Albanian groups, and one can say probably they originated the language. Albanian does show some distant Armenian and Greek connections from what I know.

Albanian is probably related to Messapian, and it seems that language was not proper Illyrian, could have been an Illyrian creole with a proto-Dardanian/proto-Paeonian base, in LBA some of these people were pushed from the central Balkans to Southern Albania by Urnfield movements and there another Illyrian culture was formed separate and different from Glasinac-Mati (Illyrian proper). Either that or Bessi with Dardano-Paeonian-Thracian creole. There were peoples other than Illyrians and Thracians, such as Dardanians and Paeonians who were related according to archeological evidence. These were a pre-LBA collapse people. And I really find it difficult to believe these didn't carry some V13 branches.

Some E-V13 branches such as E-Y3183 don't seem "Urnfield" at all, there are three separate Bulgarian Y3183* clades with a MBA TRMCA, in addition to some Y3183 downstreams clades there. It resembles more Zimnicea-Plovdiv than anything else.

E-A7065 is found in a Romanian and Rusyn who is 8/67 with Albanians. In cluster with Rusyn are few others such as Hungarian with a Serb surname and also one Romanian from study. So Romanians in this clade are very suspect with regards to being Dacian. There is another Romanian at FTDNA who is E-PH1280 in cluster with Albanians. Generally it seems plenty of Vlach migrants from the South among their Z5018, more natives it seems among CTS9320.

There are some interesting results from there for example they have both clades of E-Y35953 on a weak sample. Only Poles of ethnicities in the area have as much.

The crucial point is that you and others take W.European V13 as relevant. Of course we can find British in just about every branch of V13, it doesn't mean it originates from there. Westerners must show structure in their clades, and I can tell you I know of various their clades which are clearly Roman. And after the sample increases in SE Europe we shall see how many of them will not have matches in SE Europe.. W.European show signs of being very scattered, they often fail to achieve higher TMRCA in their branches (of course they can't if they came with the Romans).. On the other hand in SE Europe there are plenty of structured branches.

It is silly to look at the current YFull tree with two Romanian samples, with 3 Greeks (more at FTDNA, most didn't upload to YFull). Albanians are best deep tested but they too have some additional samples/clades. FTDNA tree is also chaotic, it places in upstream clades people who only tested few SNP's so one thinks they are some basals when in fact many are way downstream. I know enough of Romanian and Greek V13 to add more than 40 Romanian and Greek flags each, in addition to other various SE European samples. And then you would see the whole picture. You'd see how actually diverse V13 is.

R-Z2705 was one man in Early Medieval as I said so not really important for the origins of the Albanians before Early Medieval. What's more important here is not today's frequencies but the diversity. And the diversity is clearly on the side of R-PF7563 as the Albanian admin pointed out. I never tried to make a parallel between Albanian and proto-Anatolian however the presence and the diversity of this R-PF7563 is telling. Proto-Albanian moved out of the steppe at earlier stage than the Greek and Armenian. That's why it's not a surprise that proto-Albanian shares number of isoglosses with the Germanic, Baltic and Slavic languages. While the number of isoglosses between Albanian and Greek/Armenian are less than the former groups. Because Albanian shares more isoglosses with Greek than Armenian, Orel thinks that is because of secondary and later contacts with the Greek. Therefore the probability of Catacomb Culture as a culture that might gave rise of proto-Greek and proto-Armenian doesn't fit the bill for proto-Albanian. On the other hand, we underestimate the probability that many modern languages are just creole languages. Certainly in the past when literacy was not really important people didn't really care about the purity of the language like many modern nations do and who cleansed their modern languages from foreign influences in the past few centuries.

Bulgaria is naturally connected with the Carpathians and the PC steppe and that's why the major influences come from those places. But the steppe influence in Bulgaria in the form of R1b and R-Z93 lineages was significantly reduced by a secondary wave which must have arrived by the MBA-LBA-EIA transition. This secondary wave fits the bill for many E-V13 lineages and looks like a Carpathian influence. This is the period when R1b was reduced in the Balkans significantly and many R1b lineages found refuge in Greece or further east in West Asia. We have the EIA Iranian F38 (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-iron-age-iranian.html) which shows some IBS matches with the modern Balkan nations in the IBS analysis run by Davidski. This might be a hint for a recent Balkan ancestry. The sample was positive for: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y23838*/
The same process occured again millennium and a half later with the arrival of the Slavs who reduced the number of R1b even more but also those of E-V13. And the migrations happened through the same route which is not a coincidence but a natural flow of the things in regards of the geography. Those three separate Bulgarian E-Y3183* also point to a MBA-LBA migration to Bulgaria which gave rise of the Thracians. Recently in our project we got the results of a Bulgarian from Pella Macedonia, today in Greece and he was positive for E-BY5022. However as he was tested with SNP pack there are some important SNPs which weren't tested and by markers he shows closeness with the Greek from this branch: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y150909a/. He said that is looking forward to purchase Big-Y 700 in feature so we will see. What's interesting, in that same region of Meglen and Kukus there is already one E-BY3880*, other Bulgarian with origins from Kornisor who is E-BY4914 and me of course E-Y16729*. Going by markers although not yet SNP tested there are number of E-CTS9320 in the same regions. So there is quite a diversity in a such a small region and the presence of these specific E-BY5022, E-Y16729 lineages which don't have parallels in the Western Balkans but brotherly subclades pop up in Bulgaria might give a clue of an Thracian ultimate origin and arrivial in the LBA never mind that E-BY3880 is with TMRCA of around 4300 ybp. Many I-Y3120 clades in the Balkans also share TMRCA around 2200 ybp however we all agree that most of them arrived with the Slavs around the 6-th century AD. Of course, the LBA and the idea of arrival with the Thracians is just a assumption when these clades might have arrived at earliest in the Balkans.

Every E-V13 clade IS relevant. Because this diversity I've mentioned in the region of Meglen-Kukus can be also found in W.Europe as well where you can find number of E-BY3880* clusters, but also some clades such as E-S7461*, E-Y16729*, E-Z5018*, E-Z5017* or E-Z5016* that don't have parallels in the Balkans later than MBA. I find it hard to believe that these all are Roman descendants of Balkan origin. It doesn't look likely at all. What is more likely is that there was probably some MBA source which was radiating E-V13 clades around Europe. This source can't be some isolated culture but probably very interactive and influential. Such source must have been part of the Urnfield web of cultures. Presumably at the eastern end of this web which fits the Carpathian origin. My point is, even if all those Romanians or Greeks do Big-Y test there won't be a recent connection with most of those W.European people and the MBA connection will still hold.

Riverman
02-11-2021, 01:22 PM
Related to what I wrote before, do we have yDNA evidence for Celtic migrations into the Balkans and Anatolia? In theory, there should be at least some, considering that whole tribes in folk migrations moved down to Pannonia, Balkans and Anatolia. Did any Albanian project recognise such an influence? Because, regardless of how low it might be, it should be there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe

Especially noteworthy are the Scordisci:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

ShpataEMadhe
02-11-2021, 01:56 PM
There was a thread here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11853-Puglia-Y-DNA

Small sample size 41, but better something than nothing.

This is E-V13: 4 E-Y3183, 1 E-L17 and 1 E-FGC11457

E-V13 Z5018 subclade mostly found in Western Europe and E-V13 => Z5018 => S2979 subclades.

Those are not ancient dna are they? From what I can see those look like arberesh or mixed with greek. I believe arberesh settled puglia in 15th century

ShpataEMadhe
02-11-2021, 02:22 PM
R-Z2705 was one man in Early Medieval as I said so not really important for the origins of the Albanians before Early Medieval. What's more important here is not today's frequencies but the diversity. And the diversity is clearly on the side of R-PF7563 as the Albanian admin pointed out. I never tried to make a parallel between Albanian and proto-Anatolian however the presence and the diversity of this R-PF7563 is telling. Proto-Albanian moved out of the steppe at earlier stage than the Greek and Armenian. That's why it's not a surprise that proto-Albanian shares number of isoglosses with the Germanic, Baltic and Slavic languages. While the number of isoglosses between Albanian and Greek/Armenian are less than the former groups. Because Albanian shares more isoglosses with Greek than Armenian, Orel thinks that is because of secondary and later contacts with the Greek. Therefore the probability of Catacomb Culture as a culture that might gave rise of proto-Greek and proto-Armenian doesn't fit the bill for proto-Albanian. On the other hand, we underestimate the probability that many modern languages are just creole languages. Certainly in the past when literacy was not really important people didn't really care about the purity of the language like many modern nations do and who cleansed their modern languages from foreign influences in the past few centuries.

Bulgaria is naturally connected with the Carpathians and the PC steppe and that's why the major influences come from those places. But the steppe influence in Bulgaria in the form of R1b and R-Z93 lineages was significantly reduced by a secondary wave which must have arrived by the MBA-LBA-EIA transition. This secondary wave fits the bill for many E-V13 lineages and looks like a Carpathian influence. This is the period when R1b was reduced in the Balkans significantly and many R1b lineages found refuge in Greece or further east in West Asia. We have the EIA Iranian F38 (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-iron-age-iranian.html) which shows some IBS matches with the modern Balkan nations in the IBS analysis run by Davidski. This might be a hint for a recent Balkan ancestry. The sample was positive for: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y23838*/
The same process occured again millennium and a half later with the arrival of the Slavs who reduced the number of R1b even more but also those of E-V13. And the migrations happened through the same route which is not a coincidence but a natural flow of the things in regards of the geography. Those three separate Bulgarian E-Y3183* also point to a MBA-LBA migration to Bulgaria which gave rise of the Thracians. Recently in our project we got the results of a Bulgarian from Pella Macedonia, today in Greece and he was positive for E-BY5022. However as he was tested with SNP pack there are some important SNPs which weren't tested and by markers he shows closeness with the Greek from this branch: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y150909a/. He said that is looking forward to purchase Big-Y 700 in feature so we will see. What's interesting, in that same region of Meglen and Kukus there is already one E-BY3880*, other Bulgarian with origins from Kornisor who is E-BY4914 and me of course E-Y16729*. Going by markers although not yet SNP tested there are number of E-CTS9320 in the same regions. So there is quite a diversity in a such a small region and the presence of these specific E-BY5022, E-Y16729 lineages which don't have parallels in the Western Balkans but brotherly subclades pop up in Bulgaria might give a clue of an Thracian ultimate origin and arrivial in the LBA never mind that E-BY3880 is with TMRCA of around 4300 ybp. Many I-Y3120 clades in the Balkans also share TMRCA around 2200 ybp however we all agree that most of them arrived with the Slavs around the 6-th century AD. Of course, the LBA and the idea of arrival with the Thracians is just a assumption when these clades might have arrived at earliest in the Balkans.

Every E-V13 clade IS relevant. Because this diversity I've mentioned in the region of Meglen-Kukus can be also found in W.Europe as well where you can find number of E-BY3880* clusters, but also some clades such as E-S7461*, E-Y16729*, E-Z5018*, E-Z5017* or E-Z5016* that don't have parallels in the Balkans later than MBA. I find it hard to believe that these all are Roman descendants of Balkan origin. It doesn't look likely at all. What is more likely is that there was probably some MBA source which was radiating E-V13 clades around Europe. This source can't be some isolated culture but probably very interactive and influential. Such source must have been part of the Urnfield web of cultures. Presumably at the eastern end of this web which fits the Carpathian origin. My point is, even if all those Romanians or Greeks do Big-Y test there won't be a recent connection with most of those W.European people and the MBA connection will still hold.

Problem with that is western Europe has had much more testing done so will have diversity - things will change over time and more v13 will be attributed to the Romans. Also with diversity lies the issue of death, if a v13 line moved to west Europe and the rest were wiped out in its home land the home land would end up with less diversity.

I currently believe pf7563 is not Albanian, it is not common enough to continue the language, don't forget schools didn't exist back then even small schools let alone massive modern ones that teach languages - languages were taught by parents and usually the language of the father. Albanians even today live isolated in mountains so the fact that they speak the same language as city folk points to a compact spread of early y dna in a small region

It is likely pre Albanian in western balkans, could be proto greek even. I believe z2108 or v13 or L283, likely a combination came along and killed off most pf7563 in West balkans and placed the proto Albanian language. Right now it is unclear who belongs to what because not enough ancient dna. It could even be recent as no pf7563 has been found in ancient balkans, how common is it in greeks, Italians and armenians?

Riverman
02-11-2021, 03:08 PM
Problem with that is western Europe has had much more testing done so will have diversity - things will change over time and more v13 will be attributed to the Romans. Also with diversity lies the issue of death, if a v13 line moved to west Europe and the rest were wiped out in its home land the home land would end up with less diversity.

You seem to miss the point about what is relevant diversity for this debate. Because yes, some Balkan countries being relatively undertested, but in absolute numbers, since E-V13 is much more common there, they are already well represented. Yet for many major clades of E-V13, and that's especially true for Albanians, with more local people getting tested, this just adds another sample to an already known, young subclade.

The problem is exactly the same as it is with R1b in Britain and Iberia. When you just look at the current distribution, nobody would instinctively say that R1b came from Eastern Europe, but would suggest Iberia or Britain. Yet that is not the case. You can test all British or Iberian people, and still what emerges is that they come from a few branches which took the whole region, spread like crazy, replaced most of the older inhabitants lineages, and that's it. The same seems to apply to the Balkans and E-V13, just with one difference, namely that the ancestor of E-V13 was indeed coming over the Balkans, lived there, moved up, and came back primarily with one successful lineage of E-V13. So this is more kind of a "back migration", which is not true for R1b.

You need to go up the tree, you need to find old branches from which others descend from, and for that we already have enough samples from the Balkans, yet they are not there for the relevant branches spread beyond the Balkans. Here are a few examples:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y18556/

What you see is actually a lack of testing among Germans! The Balkan subclades are just fine, they form a compact tree branch, but look at the age: Just 1500 BP:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y172393/

Looking at another part below E-Z5017:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5016/

There are whole clusters of well tested subclades of Balkan or even more specifically Albanian provenience, but they all have a shallow age and they don't participate upstream.

Check:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z16988/

The German, Central European and British branches all have a TMRCA of around 1200-500 BC. There I found one case which might speak for a Balkan origin, interestingly in Norway (!):
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4222/

The direction is not proven, could be a Germanic or Celtic branch coming down too, but that's probably less likely, so this is a case of a Balkan subclade moving up, around Roman times, probably. Not sure yet, but one case. But look at the major regional branches, they all date to the LBA-EIA!
Such historical overlaps is what you have to look for to prove a higher proportion of Balkan lineages moving up. That's the only thing which matters other than ancient DNA. So far any evidence in this respect is either inconclusive or not present at all. Keep in mind that migrations happened in both directions all the time, so its actually quite astonishing how little overlap major regional branches show.

ShpataEMadhe
02-11-2021, 03:44 PM
You seem to miss the point about what is relevant diversity for this debate. Because yes, some Balkan countries being relatively undertested, but in absolute numbers, since E-V13 is much more common there, they are already well represented. Yet for many major clades of E-V13, and that's especially true for Albanians, with more local people getting tested, this just adds another sample to an already known, young subclade.

The problem is exactly the same as it is with R1b in Britain and Iberia. When you just look at the current distribution, nobody would instinctively say that R1b came from Eastern Europe, but would suggest Iberia or Britain. Yet that is not the case. You can test all British or Iberian people, and still what emerges is that they come from a few branches which took the whole region, spread like crazy, replaced most of the older inhabitants lineages, and that's it. The same seems to apply to the Balkans and E-V13, just with one difference, namely that the ancestor of E-V13 was indeed coming over the Balkans, lived there, moved up, and came back primarily with one successful lineage of E-V13. So this is more kind of a "back migration", which is not true for R1b.

You need to go up the tree, you need to find old branches from which others descend from, and for that we already have enough samples from the Balkans, yet they are not there for the relevant branches spread beyond the Balkans. Here are a few examples:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y18556/

What you see is actually a lack of testing among Germans! The Balkan subclades are just fine, they form a compact tree branch, but look at the age: Just 1500 BP:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y172393/

Looking at another part below E-Z5017:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5016/

There are whole clusters of well tested subclades of Balkan or even more specifically Albanian provenience, but they all have a shallow age and they don't participate upstream.

Check:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z16988/

The German, Central European and British branches all have a TMRCA of around 1200-500 BC. There I found one case which might speak for a Balkan origin, interestingly in Norway (!):
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4222/

The direction is not proven, could be a Germanic or Celtic branch coming down too, but that's probably less likely, so this is a case of a Balkan subclade moving up, around Roman times, probably. Not sure yet, but one case. But look at the major regional branches, they all date to the LBA-EIA!
Such historical overlaps is what you have to look for to prove a higher proportion of Balkan lineages moving up. That's the only thing which matters other than ancient DNA. So far any evidence in this respect is either inconclusive or not present at all. Keep in mind that migrations happened in both directions all the time, so its actually what astonishing how little overlap major regional branches show.

I think we are going too far back in time here. Languages are important in determining people especially at a time when there were no public schools so everyone that spoke the same language lived together and are from the same tribe.

If we look at Spain and England there are major differences, the r1b spread may have been similar at one point in time but this is not important because the British today have more North German i1 and different R1b lines, completely different clades to the Spaniards. This is also reflected in the languages, the Spaniards speak a Latin language brought to them by the Romans, and they share plenty y dna with the Romans/Italians

V13 being much more common in balkans does not mean they are not undertested - it only takes 1 instance to change an entire line's history. I am just very disappointed in the lack of ancient dna, forget modern dna - ancient dna especially in the iron age and early medieval is very important as this when more seperate languages had developed and more civilizations arose in europe

Aspar
02-11-2021, 04:36 PM
Problem with that is western Europe has had much more testing done so will have diversity - things will change over time and more v13 will be attributed to the Romans. Also with diversity lies the issue of death, if a v13 line moved to west Europe and the rest were wiped out in its home land the home land would end up with less diversity.

I currently believe pf7563 is not Albanian, it is not common enough to continue the language, don't forget schools didn't exist back then even small schools let alone massive modern ones that teach languages - languages were taught by parents and usually the language of the father. Albanians even today live isolated in mountains so the fact that they speak the same language as city folk points to a compact spread of early y dna in a small region

It is likely pre Albanian in western balkans, could be proto greek even. I believe z2108 or v13 or L283, likely a combination came along and killed off most pf7563 in West balkans and placed the proto Albanian language. Right now it is unclear who belongs to what because not enough ancient dna. It could even be recent as no pf7563 has been found in ancient balkans, how common is it in greeks, Italians and armenians?

The Albanians and the Serbs are the most tested people in the Balkans. If the Roman connection was so obvious would have been observed by now. There is no such thing. The connection is older. Sure some lineages are spread with the Romans but are absolute minority.

There is no reason to believe that PF7563 were not Albanians but some conquered people which the Albanian language was imposed to. There is no parallel with other Balkan people when it comes to the frequency and diversity of this haplogroup among the Albanians.
Founder effects happen most often than not among numerically small population. Some studies till now have proposed that the modern Albanians descend from a very small population during the Early Medieval based on the long IBD segments shared among them. A founder effect can seriously change the y-dna picture among a population. Similar thing happened with the Slavs as well. They descend from a small population that had a huge founder effect in the early Medieval. It's visible again with IBD segments shared between the Slavs. Looking at the modern y-dna picture of the South Slavs you would think that I-Y3120 was the main haplogroup among the proto-Slavs but that's not the case because there is lot more diversity in haplogroups such as R-Z280 or R-M458 with TMRCA > 2100 ybp which is the current TMRCA of I-Y3120.
To get a clear picture you have to look before those founder effects and this clearly shows that PF7563 is a winner here. R-Z2705 had a huge founder effect in the early Medieval. It could have happened by chance, genetic advantages or something else, but that's about it, nothing more Albanian about this haplogroup over PF7563.

ShpataEMadhe
02-11-2021, 04:56 PM
The Albanians and the Serbs are the most tested people in the Balkans. If the Roman connection was so obvious would have been observed by now. There is no such thing. The connection is older. Sure some lineages are spread with the Romans but are absolute minority.

There is no reason to believe that PF7563 were not Albanians but some conquered people which the Albanian language was imposed to. There is no parallel with other Balkan people when it comes to the frequency and diversity of this haplogroup among the Albanians.
Founder effects happen most often than not among numerically small population. Some studies till now have proposed that the modern Albanians descend from a very small population during the Early Medieval based on the long IBD segments shared among them. A founder effect can seriously change the y-dna picture among a population. Similar thing happened with the Slavs as well. They descend from a small population that had a huge founder effect in the early Medieval. It's visible again with IBD segments shared between the Slavs. Looking at the modern y-dna picture of the South Slavs you would think that I-Y3120 was the main haplogroup among the proto-Slavs but that's not the case because there is lot more diversity in haplogroups such as R-Z280 or R-M458 with TMRCA > 2100 ybp which is the current TMRCA of I-Y3120.
To get a clear picture you have to look before those founder effects and this clearly shows that PF7563 is a winner here. R-Z2705 had a huge founder effect in the early Medieval. It could have happened by chance, genetic advantages or something else, but that's about it, nothing more Albanian about this haplogroup over PF7563.

Again, founder effects can be important but not always the answer. Like we said Albanians were a small group, z2108 spreading from early medieval period could mean they carried the proto Albanian language - as it stands now for z2108 in Albanians - it could simply be a tribe that was anywhere from montenegro to croatia and survived the South slavic migrations by moving down into albania where other folk of the same language lived.

Not all r1a can be attributed to South slavs, regions in Greece have too much r1a compared to i3120.

The most important factor is ancient dna, we don't have that yet so what's the next best thing? Language. It is not possible for pf75663 to carry the language with such little frequency - public schools are recent from 1700s actually no, more recent than that for balkan countries.

I am not saying z2108 is definitely proto Albanian but for sure it is more important than pf7563 in carrying the Albanian language into modern age, only way we will get definite answers is from ancient dna

Aspar
02-11-2021, 05:16 PM
But if you read carefully, I've said that the situation before the founder effect clearly points to more frequency of PF7563 over Z2705. And even if we assume that much of the proto-Albanian population was reduced because of war, plagues etc. it would be strange to assume that only R-Z2103 guys died while R-PF7563 were spared.

ShpataEMadhe
02-11-2021, 05:42 PM
But if you read carefully, I've said that the situation before the founder effect clearly points to more frequency of PF7563 over Z2705. And even if we assume that much of the proto-Albanian population was reduced because of war, plagues etc. it would be strange to assume that only R-Z2103 guys died while R-PF7563 were spared.

Based on what was pf7563 more frequent than z2108? As for diversity, each line of pf7563 or anything has a birth time and birth place and without ancient dna we won't know where. The fact that many different pf7563 are found in Albania does not mean they were born there, could have come from all different directions at different times without carrying the proto Albanian language. Ancient Greece became more and more diverse over time, roman empire used people from all over the world, there is also some celtic history in balkans etc.

Frequency is continuity, just like you think it is strange for z2103 to die whilst pf7563 were spared (and I agree that didn't happen) I too think it more strange for pf7563 to single handedly be associated with the proto Albanian language with such little frequency today - it is absolutely not possible

gjergj
02-13-2021, 10:05 PM
Problem with that is western Europe has had much more testing done so will have diversity - things will change over time and more v13 will be attributed to the Romans. Also with diversity lies the issue of death, if a v13 line moved to west Europe and the rest were wiped out in its home land the home land would end up with less diversity.

I currently believe pf7563 is not Albanian, it is not common enough to continue the language, don't forget schools didn't exist back then even small schools let alone massive modern ones that teach languages - languages were taught by parents and usually the language of the father. Albanians even today live isolated in mountains so the fact that they speak the same language as city folk points to a compact spread of early y dna in a small region

It is likely pre Albanian in western balkans, could be proto greek even. I believe z2108 or v13 or L283, likely a combination came along and killed off most pf7563 in West balkans and placed the proto Albanian language. Right now it is unclear who belongs to what because not enough ancient dna. It could even be recent as no pf7563 has been found in ancient balkans, how common is it in greeks, Italians and armenians?

PF7563 has the largest % among albanians compare to other countries and the largest diversity compare to other countries. this is even more obvious if you consider the small geographical area of albanian populated areas compare to others countries. in west balkans is present from south albania up to Bosnia. I have not seen it further up in north west balkans and the presence in greece, seems related to Arvanitas migration to greece during middle ages (based on the current tests).
the presence in italy is in the lower half of the peninsula and seems to be migration from the west balkans to italian peninsula around middle to late bronze age. some of it has also moved to anatolia/levant area around the same period. I will not speculate on the language or its role in "ethnic" formation but this is clearly the earliest indoeuropean haplo in the albanian population with the oldest diversity of clades among albanians as well as distance of these clades with other countries.

gjergj
02-13-2021, 10:34 PM
Actually there are minimum two influences, one Illyrian (with Thracian?) directly on Dorians, this could even mean an increase of J2, since so far especially the coastal Illyrian core seems to have it (?), secondly a Northern broadscale infiltration even up to historical times, directly with Thracians, which should be more directly E-V13. Another way to see the latter would be like a general North -> South infiltration which was later pushed South itself or overlaid by even more recent, especially Slavic expansion. How the more Western, in the broadest sense Illyrian related, and the more Eastern, in the broadest sense more Thracian related, influences play in together and influence each other will be very interesting to investigate, as is whether E-V13 was probably even present in Greece earlier, which is possible of course.
Other than that, the results so far are very meagre and who knows what kind of individuals these were? Especially in the colonies, you have interesting people floating around, like adventurers, the son of a citizen with a slave, other traders or local people, what not. I'm not say that's the case, but that number of samples in a highly complex society like the Greek is not really to be considered representative. Its actually quite poor considering how important the Greeks were. You need many samples from the various Greek tribes and city states at best, like always, a net of samples taken, then we can rush to conclusions, especially with the right outside references. Now, its just too early and we can just say that a large scale more Northern shifted impact seems less likely.

There is a very large middle age albanian migration to Greece. especially western part of greece with significant concentration in Peloponnese. so unless deep test are done its not easy to distinguish between ancient/Dorian E-V13 or Arvanitas E-V13 in that area. the same for some other haplos as well.

gjergj
02-13-2021, 10:44 PM
In my opinion arrival of E-V13 to Greece in EIA did not go through Albania, but through what is today North Macedonia.

I base this assumption on drop in E-V13 frequency among Tosks, compared to both Ghegs (North of them), and Epirotes (South of them). Tosks also have higher frequencies of pre-E-V13 haplogroups like G-P15 or J-M410, compared to Ghegs. So it looks like there is no continuity of E-V13 when going through Albania and Epirus.
On the other hand, Northern Macedonians have significant frequency of E-V13, which means it was even higher before the Slavs came in Early Middle Ages.

There is a very good diversity of E-V13 among albanian Tosks even if you eliminate the middle age migration from north albania to south. but that does not mean the the main e-v13 migration to grece did not go through the area that is today north macedonia and east/south east albania.

gjergj
02-13-2021, 10:47 PM
The main Tosk Y-DNA is E-V13. Probably it was even higher if not the assimilation of I2a/R1a/I1 Slavs.

Most of the Tosk E-V13 in terms of quantity is middle age migration from north east albania. Especially most of the Laberia group of E-V13.

gjergj
02-13-2021, 10:50 PM
Could be like this Yes. But when It Comes to autosomal DNA Tosks and the Albanian samples We got in G25 are not that different from mainland Greeks. Gheghs usually plot northern than Tosks do. Personally i believe South Albanians have come in contact With Greeks and the region of Epirus was the meeting(and also mixing point) between Illyrians and Epirote(northwest Greek speaking) tribes. And ofc Arvanites and Souliotes who settled in Greece were Tosk related people.

More testing is needed for this detail but currently most arvanitas migration to greece originated in north east albania not the region of Toskeria.

Johnny ola
02-13-2021, 10:57 PM
More testing is needed for this detail but currently most arvanitas migration to greece originated in north east albania not the region of Toskeria.

Arvanites were tosk speakers,i have no idea from what provinces of Albania they started settling south.

gjergj
02-13-2021, 11:08 PM
That is your own theory and it dosn't making any sense!!!
Ionic-Attic Greeks and more specific Athenians considered even Macedonians as barbarians...does it making them non Greek?Northwest Greek speaking Epirote tribes are considered Greeks from all the historians.

Not to mention Herodotus but Thucydides, which is very objective compare to others has a very good description of the Epirotes during a battle/Peloponnesian War. There is nothing greek in essence about them. He is not simply naming them, he is describing their mentality and actions. Also by the way we have tested a lot of people in south albania/north epir. putting aside middle age migration from north albania there is no affinity between "local" y results and the more traditional ancient greek haplogroups. The greek influence in that area seem cultural rather than genetic/Y affinity.

Johnny ola
02-13-2021, 11:12 PM
Not to mention Herodotus but Thucydides, which is very objective compare to others has a very good description of the Epirotes during a battle/Peloponnesian War. There is nothing greek in essence about them. He is not simply naming them, he is describing their mentality and actions. Also by the way we have tested a lot of people in south albania/north epir. putting aside middle age migration from north albania there is no affinity between "local" y results and the more traditional ancient greek haplogroups. The greek influence in that area seem cultural rather than genetic/Y affinity.

Ancient Greek haplogroups?What are these haplogroups?And who told you that Epirus or Macedonia were not Greek.They belonged to the Doric/Northwest Greek spectrum.

Huban
02-13-2021, 11:35 PM
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 - Two Greeks are L241+ but without deeper tests. One from Messinia and one from Arcadia (?). Likely Ancient Greeks had their own specific clades of L241. Additionally a significant percentage of Cypriot E-V13 from studies is certainly related to a Cypriot Greek who tested Y37 and who seems almost certainly L241. Based on some STR's they might belong to L241>Z38770 subclade. L241 has plenty of diversity in more Northern areas of the Balkan so it seems Greek L241 arrived to Greece in EIA.


Actually one of these Greeks from Arcadia, Koliopoulos, recently I saw his surname and it was suspect to me immediately, it looked derived from Albanian name Kola and it is.
Dimitris Plapoutas son of Kolia Plapoutas is his direct ancestor.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Plapoutas2.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitris_Plapoutas

It seems two other Greeks at FTDNA are close to him. It doesn't look like he belongs to PH1280, main Albanian L241 clade, or to A7065. There is a new clade in Southern Albania E-L241>ZQ815, maybe these end up there.

Of the other new Greek results, first Greek FGC11450 which doesn't cluster with Albanians and also one E-Z19851 who is very distant from the others in this cluster.

trdbr1234
02-13-2021, 11:49 PM
More testing is needed for this detail but currently most arvanitas migration to greece originated in north east albania not the region of Toskeria.

What do you consider north east Albania? What are you basing this on?

Kelmendasi
02-13-2021, 11:58 PM
More testing is needed for this detail but currently most arvanitas migration to greece originated in north east albania not the region of Toskeria.
Based on historiography and the study of dialects, the most important wave of Albanian migration into Greece during the medieval should have been from the Tosk dialectal area. However, migrations from the Geg zone also took place for sure.

Now, it is certainly possible however that there was an older historical migration from the northeast of Albania into the southern Tosk-speaking areas considering that you are hinting at genetic evidence that supports this assertion.

Huban
02-13-2021, 11:58 PM
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z 16661>S2978 - Found in several Greeks from Messinia, Peloponnesus. Likely Ancient Greek but considering diversity of Z16661 north of Greece it likely arrived to greece in LBA or EIA. Some Eastern and Sardinian samples might fit into Greek colonisation.


I failed to mention their locations, Filiatra, Mystras (next to Sparta) and Sparta.

These might be the legit Laconians. And they are surely not native in Greece past the LBA.
https://i.gifer.com/NdG8.gif

Hawk
02-14-2021, 12:23 AM
I failed to mention their locations, Filiatra, Mystras (next to Sparta) and Sparta.

These might be the legit Laconians. And they are surely not native in Greece past the LBA.
https://i.gifer.com/NdG8.gif

The name Spartakos was frequently attested among Thracians, while Sparta word is unknown.

It looks like the same wave of people that influenced both during LBA had Sparta/Spartakos as some common word/name of certain meaning.

Johane Derite
02-14-2021, 06:32 AM
I failed to mention their locations, Filiatra, Mystras (next to Sparta) and Sparta.

These might be the legit Laconians. And they are surely not native in Greece past the LBA.
https://i.gifer.com/NdG8.gif

As far as I know, Maniots which are said to be from the laconian region/ near it, had blood feuding as an important part of their culture. There is no chance afaik that they are influenced by arvanites in this.

Secondly, blood feuding in Italy (vendetta) was also more concentrated in southern parts that had higher ancient balkan migration.

Blood feuding is a phenomena that arises out of a specific cultural context and background. Maybe the blood feuding in Albanians, Maniotes, and Italians has an older common cultural origin (religious, ethical views on "honour" etc).

gjergj
02-14-2021, 08:18 AM
Ancient Greek haplogroups?What are these haplogroups?And who told you that Epirus or Macedonia were not Greek.They belonged to the Doric/Northwest Greek spectrum.

Well you seem to be talking so much about Hellenes you should know what those haplos are and their subclades more importantly. You can tell us.
Regarding the "spectrum" you have two greek historians, Herodotus (the father of history) and Thucidities (the first modern historian). They both are very clear about Epir. Its not greek. Both in customs and language.
And based on genetic, Y result, I have seen in south Albania it is not connected to greeks in the last 3-4000 years thus far. The greek minority in south albania/north Epir that has been tested is slavic mostly, 75%, and some geg albanias + a few goths that have helenized, so all post Roman/middle age period.
So in short neither the haplos in that area nor ancient greek historians can suport a greek identity for Epir. May be dna of ancient remains might settle this. They have just started in south albania with ancient dna. We should get results may be this year for some of them.

Hawk
02-14-2021, 09:07 AM
Well you seem to be talking so much about Hellenes you should know what those haplos are and their subclades more importantly. You can tell us.
Regarding the "spectrum" you have two greek historians, Herodotus (the father of history) and Thucidities (the first modern historian). They both are very clear about Epir. Its not greek. Both in customs and language.
And based on genetic, Y result, I have seen in south Albania it is not connected to greeks in the last 3-4000 years thus far. The greek minority in south albania/north Epir that has been tested is slavic mostly, 75%, and some geg albanias + a few goths that have helenized, so all post Roman/middle age period.
So in short neither the haplos in that area nor ancient greek historians can suport a greek identity for Epir. May be dna of ancient remains might settle this. They have just started in south albania with ancient dna. We should get results may be this year for some of them.

Johnny ola is right, if you can deduce for us what might be Ancient Greek, Epirote, Illyrian Y-DNA or subclades within the same mutation would be good. I want to see the chronological reasoning behind your claims.

Johnny ola
02-14-2021, 12:42 PM
Well you seem to be talking so much about Hellenes you should know what those haplos are and their subclades more importantly. You can tell us.
Regarding the "spectrum" you have two greek historians, Herodotus (the father of history) and Thucidities (the first modern historian). They both are very clear about Epir. Its not greek. Both in customs and language.
And based on genetic, Y result, I have seen in south Albania it is not connected to greeks in the last 3-4000 years thus far. The greek minority in south albania/north Epir that has been tested is slavic mostly, 75%, and some geg albanias + a few goths that have helenized, so all post Roman/middle age period.
So in short neither the haplos in that area nor ancient greek historians can suport a greek identity for Epir. May be dna of ancient remains might settle this. They have just started in south albania with ancient dna. We should get results may be this year for some of them.

I think you miss your morning Medication :lol:

We have Not haplogroups from Ancient Greeks and Ancient Illyrians/Thracians especially For Iron Age period. So What you saying Is random guessworking stuff..

Johnny ola
02-14-2021, 12:43 PM
As far as I know, Maniots which are said to be from the laconian region/ near it, had blood feuding as an important part of their culture. There is no chance afaik that they are influenced by arvanites in this.

Secondly, blood feuding in Italy (vendetta) was also more concentrated in southern parts that had higher ancient balkan migration.

Blood feuding is a phenomena that arises out of a specific cultural context and background. Maybe the blood feuding in Albanians, Maniotes, and Italians has an older common cultural origin (religious, ethical views on "honour" etc).

Cretans have it as Well. Sardinians, Sicilians used to have it. Maybe Anatolian N habit ;)

gjergj
02-14-2021, 01:44 PM
I think you miss your morning Medication :lol:

We have Not haplogroups from Ancient Greeks and Ancient Illyrians/Thracians especially For Iron Age period. So What you saying Is random guessworking stuff..

If that makes you feel better about yourself than it is fine. I will accept I did not take the morning medications. ever. Guilty as charged.
As it is obvious that we all operate with some facts and with some assumptions in these discussion and I feel quite confident that the ancient Greek historians that I mentioned as well as current Y dna population in the region/Albania, which is substantial as a sample, make for more solid facts than the alternatives. Of course once the ancient dna that is being now processed from south albania in two separate batches will be analyzed this year and the next we will know for sure who should run for the meds :\

Johnny ola
02-14-2021, 01:48 PM
If that makes you feel better about yourself than it is fine. I will accept I did not take the morning medications. ever. Guilty as charged.
As it is obvious that we all operate with some facts and with some assumptions in these discussion and I feel quite confident that the ancient Greek historians that I mentioned as well as current Y dna population in the region/Albania, which is substantial as a sample, make for more solid facts than the alternatives. Of course once the ancient dna that is being now processed from south albania in two separate batches will be analyzed this year and the next we will know for sure who should run for the meds :\

You keep repeating the same stuff again and again.Can you tell us the haplogroups of ancient Greeks and Illyrians?That would be very easy to understand what is going with modern Greeks and Albanians.The only thing you saying is that Epirus is part of the Albanian genetics/heritage.Anything new? :lol::rolleyes::bounce:

gjergj
02-14-2021, 01:53 PM
You keep repeating the same stuff again and again.Can you tell us the haplogroups of ancient Greeks and Illyrians?That would be very easy to understand what is going with modern Greeks and Albanians.The only thing you saying is that Epirus is part of the Albanian genetics/heritage.Anything new? :lol::rolleyes::bounce:

I did not say that. read what I said carefully. without the meds if possible

Johnny ola
02-14-2021, 02:12 PM
I did not say that. read what I said carefully. without the meds if possible

First of all you have to learn and understand that ethnic groups/tribes/clans are not forming with only one yDNA marker/lineage.Even Illyrians/Thracians/Dardanians and Greeks would have been a mix of different lineages/clades.If EV13 took place during the LBA/EIA then it come in contact with native lineages like J2a,G2a maybe H,I2,R1b etc.EV13 in Greece is indeed highly coming from Arvanites,Vlachs,Slavs no1s doubt about it but.But EV13 peaks even in parts/regions were these people did not inhabit/settled.Witch means it has been there from before.But besides that,you will need deeper testing to check the clades.And also keep in mind Arvanites/Sioulotes did not brought only EV13 but also lineages like J2b,I2din and some weird I1 as we have seen lately with the Kolokotronis ancestor guy.A Germanic i would lineage.As for Epirus.It was never settled from Illyrian people.Epirus used to inhabit by Northwest Greek tribes and in the borders with Albania it was the cline between Greeks and Illyrians.You can't know what lineages these tribes used to carry without samples.

Hawk
02-14-2021, 02:28 PM
First of all you have to learn and understand that ethnic groups/tribes/clans are not forming with only one yDNA marker/lineage.Even Illyrians/Thracians/Dardanians and Greeks would have been a mix of different lineages/clades.If EV13 took place during the LBA/EIA then it come in contact with native lineages like J2a,G2a maybe H,I2,R1b etc.EV13 in Greece is indeed highly coming from Arvanites,Vlachs,Slavs no1s doubt about it but.But EV13 peaks even in parts/regions were these people did not inhabit/settled.Witch means it has been there from before.But besides that,you will need deeper testing to check the clades.And also keep in mind Arvanites/Sioulotes did not brought only EV13 but also lineages like J2b,I2din and some weird I1 as we have seen lately with the Kolokotronis ancestor guy.A Germanic i would lineage.As for Epirus.It was never settled from Illyrian people.Epirus used to inhabit by Northwest Greek tribes and in the borders with Albania it was the cline between Greeks and Illyrians.You can't know what lineages these tribes used to carry without samples.

I tend to view Epirotans not strictly as Greeks but some kind of non-Illyrian, non-Greek people that heavily adopted Hellenic culture. I am curious to see their Y-DNA.

If this Eastern Urnfield theory and E-V13 spread holds water then most of E-V13 in Greece is during this time, Late Bronze Age, Greece was overflooded by this people attested by archaeological evidences.

There is a Serbian sharing Y-DNA subclade(E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661>S2978) with Peloponessians from Sparta and Apuglians, so there you have the trajectory.

It's likely that some part of E-V13 were non-IE speaking as well, like Pelasgians which Gimbutas thought were Late Bronze Age invaders from the borders of Serbia and Romania (that's what Marija Gimbutas was thinking based on some archeological evidences).

Hawk
02-14-2021, 02:30 PM
...duplicate....

Johnny ola
02-14-2021, 02:41 PM
...duplicate....

Ye.It seems a very weird scenario for what exactly happened during the Bronze Age Collapse and with the Greek Dark Ages.It is very likely that people from the north.... you can call them as you want(Dorians,Sea People,Illyrians or whatever) to kicked out big amounts of native lineages-markers,thus mainland Greece becoming more EV13.And these lineages that left mainland went to islands,cyprus,anatolia etc.What it makes me wonder is why they did not brought a different dialect with them,instead we have 3 new dialects taking place in Greece and all of them belong to Greek.I think a similar senario took place in Albania.Most of the neolithic lineages kicked out and EV13 dominance for the most part.I see J2b as an important lineage as well,R1b inclunding.What we can say for sure is that the Greek and Illyrian ethnogenesis are a combination of people before the LBA collapse and the people who are responsible for it.In terms of autosomal DNA i do not expect huge diffrences between Epirotes,northern Greeks,Thracians and the Illyrian tribes of south Albania at least.I think they would have been very close to each other.Some diffrences maybe between the steppe/CHG/Iran N ratios.But mostly EEF.

Riverman
02-14-2021, 03:06 PM
It's likely that some part of E-V13 were non-IE speaking as well, like Pelasgians which Gimbutas thought were Late Bronze Age invaders from the borders of Serbia and Romania (that's what Marija Gimbutas was thinking based on some archeological evidences).

Agree with the rest, but that rather not, not in the LBA any more at least.

Hawk
02-14-2021, 03:08 PM
Ye.It seems a very weird scenario for what exactly happened during the Bronze Age Collapse and with the Greek Dark Ages.It is very likely that people from the north.... you can call them as you want(Dorians,Sea People,Illyrians or whatever) to kicked out big amounts of native lineages-markers,thus mainland Greece becoming more EV13.And these lineages that left mainland went to islands,cyprus,anatolia etc.What it makes me wonder is why they did not brought a different dialect with them,instead we have 3 new dialects taking place in Greece and all of them belong to Greek.I think a similar senario took place in Albania.Most of the neolithic lineages kicked out and EV13 dominance for the most part.I see J2b as an important lineage as well,R1b inclunding.What we can say for sure is that the Greek and Illyrian ethnogenesis are a combination of people before the LBA collapse and the people who are responsible for it.In terms of autosomal DNA i do not expect huge diffrences between Epirotes,northern Greeks,Thracians and the Illyrian tribes of south Albania at least.I think they would have been very close to each other.Some diffrences maybe between the steppe/CHG/Iran N ratios.But mostly EEF.

The funny thing is that i am expecting some E-L618 Neolithic survivors from South Albania/Epirus/North Greece that went extinct during that period.

Johnny ola
02-14-2021, 03:16 PM
The funny thing is that i am expecting some E-L618 Neolithic survivors from South Albania/Epirus/North Greece that went extinct during that period.

I think so.Many neolithic lineages must had survived until some time.Even now some Greeks have G2a lineages that i am very sure have to do with the neolithic expansion from anatolia.For Albanians the trinity of EV13,J2b and R1b is maybe an a good example of how Illyrians/Albani/Dardani, of western balkans would have been like.But ofc we need samples.Without samples you cannot be sure for anything.I think its awful that we lack samples from western balkans.

Huban
02-14-2021, 03:26 PM
Agree with the rest, but that rather not, not in the LBA any more at least.

Etruscan "Pelasgians" (which is an umbrella term denoting non-Greeks) were on Limnos island, 2 out of 3 results from there are Neolithic G2a clades. Real Peleset, real term, or the Philistines were IE speaking looking at their names. And R-M269 was found in them.

This culture Hawk speaks of on Serbian-Romanian border had W.Hungarian origins in MBA/EBA and results of its cousin cultures show no E-V13. And they won't show any in the future. Maybe some V13 did migrate with them but V13 does not originate in this culture, more precisely it has nothing to do with this culture and its origins. The lack of any discernable Etruscan V13 clade is also a testament to this.

One of these Greeks from Limnos is a rare G-L497 clade and he might show a clear linguistic link with the Rhaeto-Etruscan.

Besides I believe it is by no means determined that Dalmatian Neolithic E-L618 people ever spoke an Etruscan like tongue.

Bane
02-14-2021, 03:30 PM
For Albanians the trinity of EV13,J2b and R1b is maybe an a good example of how Illyrians/Albani/Dardani, of western balkans would have been like.

For those who support Illyrian origin theory, you are right.
But for us who are more in favor of Daco-Thracian theory, your statement is not precise.

Johnny ola
02-14-2021, 03:50 PM
For those who support Illyrian origin theory, you are right.
But for us who are more in favor of Daco-Thracian theory, your statement is not precise.

That is why i am saying that we need samples.And i will insist that ethnic Groups/Tribes/Clans do not forming with only 1 marker/lineage.Definitely with 2 or even 3.Second you need to undestand the origins of the paleo-balkan dialects.Do they have an eastern or a western source of origins?The fist Greek speaking dialect(that of Mycenaeans/Achaeans) have its origins from somewhere from modern Ukraine/Moldova.When it comes to paleo-balkan dialects that is something that i don't know and i can't answer..and i am pretty sure most people here cannot give a proper answer.Especially the Albanian dialect is very hard to classified somewhere and we have not ended up somewhere.It is an Illyrian dialect?A Thracian?A Dardanian?Or a mix of these?We need to found out if the paleo-balkan dialects arrived from the west or the east.

vettor
02-14-2021, 04:01 PM
First of all you have to learn and understand that ethnic groups/tribes/clans are not forming with only one yDNA marker/lineage.Even Illyrians/Thracians/Dardanians and Greeks would have been a mix of different lineages/clades.If EV13 took place during the LBA/EIA then it come in contact with native lineages like J2a,G2a maybe H,I2,R1b etc.EV13 in Greece is indeed highly coming from Arvanites,Vlachs,Slavs no1s doubt about it but.But EV13 peaks even in parts/regions were these people did not inhabit/settled.Witch means it has been there from before.But besides that,you will need deeper testing to check the clades.And also keep in mind Arvanites/Sioulotes did not brought only EV13 but also lineages like J2b,I2din and some weird I1 as we have seen lately with the Kolokotronis ancestor guy.A Germanic i would lineage.As for Epirus.It was never settled from Illyrian people.Epirus used to inhabit by Northwest Greek tribes and in the borders with Albania it was the cline between Greeks and Illyrians.You can't know what lineages these tribes used to carry without samples.

We are missing the point on the importance of the 14 Epirote tribes , especially the Molossians and Chaonians ............the Romans already had possession of modern North Albania , the Durres area during the Hannibal wars, to basically stop the Macedonians ( Hannibal's ally ) supplying Hannibal with material and men.
The Romans eventually called this area New Epirus and the southern one Old Epirus..............new Epirus, with its only good port of Durres in the whole region became one of the major roads for supply from Italy to Constantinople

So, Rome never let go of it's Albanian/ New Epirus land holdings from the early stage of the Hannibal wars and eventually took more coastal Epirote lands after defeating the Macedonians in the second Macedonain war of 197BC ..............to secure this land and any thoughts of a second Epirote Pyrrhus, the Romans settled many "Rroman-Italians" there, especially the old Samnites

Hawk
02-14-2021, 06:28 PM
Etruscan "Pelasgians" (which is an umbrella term denoting non-Greeks) were on Limnos island, 2 out of 3 results from there are Neolithic G2a clades. Real Peleset, real term, or the Philistines were IE speaking looking at their names. And R-M269 was found in them.

This culture Hawk speaks of on Serbian-Romanian border had W.Hungarian origins in MBA/EBA and results of its cousin cultures show no E-V13. And they won't show any in the future. Maybe some V13 did migrate with them but V13 does not originate in this culture, more precisely it has nothing to do with this culture and its origins. The lack of any discernable Etruscan V13 clade is also a testament to this.

One of these Greeks from Limnos is a rare G-L497 clade and he might show a clear linguistic link with the Rhaeto-Etruscan.

Besides I believe it is by no means determined that Dalmatian Neolithic E-L618 people ever spoke an Etruscan like tongue.

Your comparisons are very superficial. :)

ShpataEMadhe
02-16-2021, 03:23 PM
PF7563 has the largest % among albanians compare to other countries and the largest diversity compare to other countries. this is even more obvious if you consider the small geographical area of albanian populated areas compare to others countries. in west balkans is present from south albania up to Bosnia. I have not seen it further up in north west balkans and the presence in greece, seems related to Arvanitas migration to greece during middle ages (based on the current tests).
the presence in italy is in the lower half of the peninsula and seems to be migration from the west balkans to italian peninsula around middle to late bronze age. some of it has also moved to anatolia/levant area around the same period. I will not speculate on the language or its role in "ethnic" formation but this is clearly the earliest indoeuropean haplo in the albanian population with the oldest diversity of clades among albanians as well as distance of these clades with other countries.

Well i did not know it was more frequent in albanians than their neighhours - that changes things but it still doesnt explain the lack of numbers amongst albanians today. If these lines were frequent 2 thousand years ago a lot of men carrying these must have died or came together with other groups - is it possible pf7563 belongs to a southern illyrian tribe? As far as I know illyrians were not all the same people, some had slightly different cultures. Could also be a pre illyrian people who lived in southern balkans which is why i mentioned greeks, who are other candidates?

gjergj
02-16-2021, 07:38 PM
First of all you have to learn and understand that ethnic groups/tribes/clans are not forming with only one yDNA marker/lineage.Even Illyrians/Thracians/Dardanians and Greeks would have been a mix of different lineages/clades.If EV13 took place during the LBA/EIA then it come in contact with native lineages like J2a,G2a maybe H,I2,R1b etc.EV13 in Greece is indeed highly coming from Arvanites,Vlachs,Slavs no1s doubt about it but.But EV13 peaks even in parts/regions were these people did not inhabit/settled.Witch means it has been there from before.But besides that,you will need deeper testing to check the clades.And also keep in mind Arvanites/Sioulotes did not brought only EV13 but also lineages like J2b,I2din and some weird I1 as we have seen lately with the Kolokotronis ancestor guy.A Germanic i would lineage.As for Epirus.It was never settled from Illyrian people.Epirus used to inhabit by Northwest Greek tribes and in the borders with Albania it was the cline between Greeks and Illyrians.You can't know what lineages these tribes used to carry without samples.

I fully agree that "Illyrians", "Greeks" etc were not made up of one haplogroup. It appears that they were many laid on top of each other also timewise. even though some haplos/clades seem to be more part of the core of each group than some other haplos.
Yes, Arvanitas brought with them multiple haplogroups and that also does not mean that all E-V13 was brought by them. Considering the E-V13 presence in Sicily, for example, it must be there also by the greek/Dorian colonists. So yes, unless we have info about the clades and subclades just the haplogroup in itself is a very crude tool to make good interpretations and assumptions.
But if we know details about current populations subclades we can eliminate some assumptions and strengthen some others.
In this context I was saying that preroman haplos/clades with a presence in north Epir do not give any indications of proto greeks when we combine the first with the current haplos in cetral/south part of greece. This combined with the greek historians I mentioned does not support a proto greek theory in that area as from a dna point of view there would have been some traces of it, even if minimal.
Also from the historian point of view I could understand why for political expediency, for example, Demostenes might call Macedonian 'barbarians" during his speech in front of the Athenian Assembly but we have no credible reason to suspect why Thucydides would do it in a historical book. Even more he is not simply naming them like Herodotus or others, he is giving very detailed descriptions of their behavior and mentality.
So in short I do see how Epir at the pheriphery of the greek world and how it would gradually, especially the elite, borrow heavily from greek culture and political system during its apex, etc but I do not see any serious evidence of them being the "proto greek"/"original homeland".
Also, I know this is not very scientific but is a good indication in my opinion: all J2a that is in south albania/north Epir, whether they are today Muslim or Orthodox are not part of the "greek minority" in albania. They are albanian. The "greek minority" in the south is made up of slavic lines and some albanian lines from the north that have moved there during the middle ages. We also know that it is extremely unlikely that a greek speaker in Epir would assimilate to a non greek or non roman identity during the roman period. We know that in the greek areas roman was used only in official documents, all other parts of life, trade etc were conducted in greek. So if this J2a/non indoeuropean clade did speak some type of greek in the past/preroman. than when did they loose it? during bizantium? during ottomans?
Let me stress that this last point I am using only as a secondary supporting point in the context of the first two, dna and historians.
Nevertheless, once ancient dna results becomes available we should have more clarity.

Johnny ola
02-16-2021, 07:58 PM
I fully agree that "Illyrians", "Greeks" etc were not made up of one haplogroup. It appears that they were many laid on top of each other also timewise. even though some haplos/clades seem to be more part of the core of each group than some other haplos.
Yes, Arvanitas brought with them multiple haplogroups and that also does not mean that all E-V13 was brought by them. Considering the E-V13 presence in Sicily, for example, it must be there also by the greek/Dorian colonists. So yes, unless we have info about the clades and subclades just the haplogroup in itself is a very crude tool to make good interpretations and assumptions.
But if we know details about current populations subclades we can eliminate some assumptions and strengthen some others.
In this context I was saying that preroman haplos/clades with a presence in north Epir do not give any indications of proto greeks when we combine the first with the current haplos in cetral/south part of greece. This combined with the greek historians I mentioned does not support a proto greek theory in that area as from a dna point of view there would have been some traces of it, even if minimal.
Also from the historian point of view I could understand why for political expediency, for example, Demostenes might call Macedonian 'barbarians" during his speech in front of the Athenian Assembly but we have no credible reason to suspect why Thucydides would do it in a historical book. Even more he is not simply naming them like Herodotus or others, he is giving very detailed descriptions of their behavior and mentality.
So in short I do see how Epir at the pheriphery of the greek world and how it would gradually, especially the elite, borrow heavily from greek culture and political system during its apex, etc but I do not see any serious evidence of them being the "proto greek"/"original homeland".
Also, I know this is not very scientific but is a good indication in my opinion: all J2a that is in south albania/north Epir, whether they are today Muslim or Orthodox are not part of the "greek minority" in albania. They are albanian. The "greek minority" in the south is made up of slavic lines and some albanian lines from the north that have moved there during the middle ages. We also know that it is extremely unlikely that a greek speaker in Epir would assimilate to a non greek or non roman identity during the roman period. We know that in the greek areas roman was used only in official documents, all other parts of life, trade etc were conducted in greek. So if this J2a/non indoeuropean clade did speak some type of greek in the past/preroman. than when did they loose it? during bizantium? during ottomans?
Let me stress that this last point I am using only as a secondary supporting point in the context of the first two, dna and historians.
Nevertheless, once ancient dna results becomes available we should have more clarity.

IMO South Albania and Epirus their populations mixed with each other since classical ages and antiquity.Both Epirotes and Tosks(south Albos) have Greek and Albanian like DNA.And modern Epirotes having ofc Arvanite/Souliote ancestors especially at Thesprotia region.As for the proto-Greek homeland it would have been somewhere between South Albania/Epirus and Northwest Greek Macedonia.

peloponnesian
02-16-2021, 08:00 PM
I'm following this discussion out of morbid curiosity but as a G2a guy I have a question for the haplogroup aficionados here: is it correct to say that a rare haplogroup (like G) is going to have fewer branches than a populous haplogroup (like R) because fewer people carrying it means fewer mutations occuring? Or is that wrong scientifically? Are Y DNA mutations just a function of time or also of population size?

Johnny ola
02-16-2021, 08:07 PM
I'm following this discussion out of morbid curiosity but as a G2a guy I have a question for the haplogroup aficionados here: is it correct to say that a rare haplogroup (like G) is going to have fewer branches than a populous haplogroup (like R) because fewer people carrying it means fewer mutations occuring? Or is that wrong scientifically? Are Y DNA mutations just a function of time or also of population size?

Pretty much yes.G people kicked out from everywhere.They used to be a major lineage in EU at the neolithic but steppe people and the later west asian migrations from anatolia/aegean kicked them out.Anatolia(modern Turkey) and Caucasus is the last hideway of G folks.Be proud for G men xD :biggrin1::laugh::lol:

peloponnesian
02-16-2021, 08:13 PM
Pretty much yes.G people kicked out from everywhere.They used to be a major lineage in EU at the neolithic but steppe people and the later west asian migrations from anatolia/aegean kicked them out.Anatolia(modern Turkey) and Caucasus is the last hideway of G folks.Be proud for G men xD :biggrin1::laugh::lol:

This must surely mean that those of us who persevered are the strongest ;)

Hawk
02-16-2021, 08:21 PM
Pretty much yes.G people kicked out from everywhere.They used to be a major lineage in EU at the neolithic but steppe people and the later west asian migrations from anatolia/aegean kicked them out.Anatolia(modern Turkey) and Caucasus is the last hideway of G folks.Be proud for G men xD :biggrin1::laugh::lol:

I think, some kind of pandemics, like yersinia pestis during Neolithic destroyed Neolithic Europeans, and then Bronze Age migrants took their chance.

The Trypillians had this habit of burning their settlements each 50/60 years, archeologists thought it might have been some religious ritual but apparently it was to cease the bacteria spread.

Johnny ola
02-16-2021, 08:27 PM
I think, some kind of pandemics, like yersinia pestis during Neolithic destroyed Neolithic Europeans, and then Bronze Age migrants took their chance.

The Trypillians had this habit of burning their settlements each 50/60 years, archeologists thought it might have been some religious ritual but apparently it was to cease the bacteria spread.

G men started losing position even when they come in contact with WHG folks.In many areas 'I' people took their wives and kicked them out.. or they mixed hardly with them and become one society.Pandemics might played a role as well,but i think the IE expansion was the final end for them...

Huban
02-16-2021, 08:31 PM
Your comparisons are very superficial. :)

I do not make a single sentence on this topic without citing archeological and genetic evidence. You on the other hand are saying that V13 simultaneously descends of the Urnfield culture and the culture that was destroyed by the same Urnfield culture..

Riverman
02-16-2021, 08:34 PM
I think, some kind of pandemics, like yersinia pestis during Neolithic destroyed Neolithic Europeans, and then Bronze Age migrants took their chance.

The Trypillians had this habit of burning their settlements each 50/60 years, archeologists thought it might have been some religious ritual but apparently it was to cease the bacteria spread.

They couldn't stand aggressive mobile warfare. Their problem was supply. Because they build huge settlements which could function like fortresses, but the steppe pastoralists could easily move in and out, destroying and taking all they can grasp, without having to face open battle. The TCC never made it on the steppe, they always relied on alliances and indirect influence. When the steppe groups developed to a new stage, while at the same time their neighbours got under pressure and one tribe pushing on the other, bringing the whole network established in disarray, the TCC mega-settlements were just doomed.
We have historical accounts of similar incidents in Mesopotamia, even of people without horses or better equipment and tactics than the steppe people, yet the urban centres were slowly bleeding to death. They just couldn't protect their resources, so even if an epidemic did finally hit them, that was not the reason for their downfall, but their military weakness against mobile warfare was. Its quite telling that pastoralist ways spread far and wide, especially in times of unrest and destablised proto-state and state structures. By and large it was a migration period and at some point, the TCC just couldn't stand it any more and broke, and after them there was nothing to stop the steppe people from moving on in most of Europe.

Hawk
02-16-2021, 09:58 PM
G men started losing position even when they come in contact with WHG folks.In many areas 'I' people took their wives and kicked them out.. or they mixed hardly with them and become one society.Pandemics might played a role as well,but i think the IE expansion was the final end for them...

Yes, that looks like the case. E-L618 was always a minority on the other hand. New Mushabian migrants.

Hawk
02-16-2021, 10:33 PM
I do not make a single sentence on this topic without citing archeological and genetic evidence. You on the other hand are saying that V13 simultaneously descends of the Urnfield culture and the culture that was destroyed by the same Urnfield culture..

Nope, i never said that. I just posited possibilites, various scenarios that might have happened.

You are just reiterating what rafc wrote on his 2017 paper. Cetina Culture => Central Balkans culture like Armenochori and similar. That might be the case or not. But i think Riverman's hypothesis is closer to truth.

Johnny ola
02-16-2021, 10:45 PM
Yes, that looks like the case. E-L618 was always a minority on the other hand. New Mushabian migrants.

Ye, but never mind since EV13 is quite frequent in Balkans and you can see it in different parts/populations of the EU.

Huban
02-16-2021, 11:22 PM
Nope, i never said that. I just posited possibilites, various scenarios that might have happened.

You are just reiterating what rafc wrote on his 2017 paper. Cetina Culture => Central Balkans culture like Armenochori and similar. That might be the case or not. But i think Riverman's hypothesis is closer to truth.

Yes I do. 100 %. But modified with Glina III Schneckenberg culture, because unknown to most, some of those Central Balkan groups are more derived from Glina III and not Cetina. Similarity with Cetina is due to the fact that Cetina itself derives plenty of its traits from Glina or shows parallel traits. V13's TMRCA is not 3200 years (Urnfield) but much more..

Cetina people were very robust, far more than Iron Age Illyrians or Thracians, either they had heavy Steppe admixture or they "evolved" by themselves. Latter is likely as one of their main graves was from Ljubomir, of 100 % Steppe origin. Similar graves were found also in Albania, Pazhok and Piskove. And in Greece, Lefkada. It is these people who caused destruction of Lerna III and the House of Tiles. Some say these were early Greeks, others disagree.

I looked at evidence again, the Steppe element was atributed to pit-grave but some say in general it wasn't related to Yamnaya.

In any case V13 fits with these and links with Glina III would have spread the V13 around the Carpathians. And then some of these would become part of the Eastern Urnfield.

Some people here are far too obsessed with making V13 originate more towards the C.Europe. So it is more a "civilized hg". My focus is elsewhere, and I really really like what I see from these finds.

I think actually Thracians could have originated among these if they aren't related to Greeks. In any case these are not related to R-CTS11450, if so must be an older clade.

YF64088 Greek's ancestors were Lerna III invaders..

Looking at some autosomal results it seems something carried Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic admixture to the East.

Johnny ola
02-16-2021, 11:36 PM
Yes I do. 100 %. But modified with Glina III Schneckenberg culture, because unknown to most, some of those Central Balkan groups are more derived from Glina III and not Cetina. Similarity with Cetina is due to the fact that Cetina itself derives plenty of its traits from Glina or shows parallel traits. V13's TMRCA is not 3200 years (Urnfield) but much more..

Cetina people were very robust, far more than Iron Age Illyrians or Thracians, either they had heavy Steppe admixture or they "evolved" by themselves. Latter is likely as one of their main graves was from Ljubomir, of 100 % Steppe origin. Similar graves were found also in Albania, Pazhok and Piskove. And in Greece, Lefkada. It is these people who caused destruction of Lerna III and the House of Tiles. Some say these were early Greeks, others disagree.

I looked at evidence again, the Steppe element was atributed to pit-grave but some say in general it wasn't related to Yamnaya.

In any case V13 fits with these and links with Glina III would have spread the V13 around the Carpathians. And then some of these would become part of the Eastern Urnfield.

Some people here are far too obsessed with making V13 originate more towards the C.Europe. So it is more a "civilized hg". My focus is elsewhere, and I really really like what I see from these finds.

I think actually Thracians could have originated among these if they aren't related to Greeks. In any case these are not related to R-CTS11450, if so must be an older clade.

YF64088 Greek's ancestors were Lerna III invaders..

Looking at some autosomal results it seems something carried Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic admixture to the East.

How do you know they were robust? Have you seen samples(skulls etc)? And how you think the autosomal DNA of Cetina would have been?

XXD
02-17-2021, 04:17 AM
One thing I really do not understand is why some people consistently try to claim that Pyrrhus and the Epirotan tribes belong exclusively to the Albanians. This doesn't make sense historically or genetically, for reasons that I will explain.

1) That Epirotans and Macedonians were considered as barbarians by other Greeks has nothing to do with whether they were Greek or not. Other unambiguously Greek groups (e.g. Cretans, Ionians, Cypriots, Pontics) had large (or even predominant) portions of non Greek admixture yet their Greekness was not in doubt. Furthermore, Epirotans spoke an early branch of the Doric Greek tongue, and they also contributed heavily to the Macedonian ethnogenesisis. So I really think the issue is a cultural one, not a genetic one.

The primary reasons for the distinction of Epirotans from other Greeks is that being a peripheral population (like the Macedonians), they were not included as much in the ethnogenesis myths of Central and Southern Greeks, which the latter used to create a loose notion of shared ethnicity. They were also politically organised in a different way, which some later Greek authors considered barbaric.

2) Genetically, we cannot say anything about ancient Epirotans until we have samples. We know for a fact that Epirotan royalty mixed with Illyrian tribes and formed major alliances. Pyrrhus in fact looks very similar to sculptures of Constantine the Great (an Illyrian), and both have facial features that we associate with modern Epirotans (both Greeks and Albanians). However, can you rely only on genes to say whether a particular ancient people belong to modern nations who claim their heritage? What is the cutoff value that makes a historical figure Albanian or Greek? 15%, 25%, 50%? Mind you, genetic exchange was bidirectional, especially if you consider that the vast majority of what is now Albania was largely or fully Hellenised by 200 AD; the local Illyrians were either bilingual or had completely replaced their identity with a Greek one. I am mentioning this just to show that Greeks were having the biggest cultural impact in the area until the arrival of the Slavs.

Even though Albanians probably descend from Illyrians or tentatively related peoples (e.g. Dardanians and Moesians), we know that most of them have nothing to do with the southern Illyrian tribes that were in contact with the Greeks. All genetic and linguistic evidence points that the cradle of Albanians was in north Albania and Kosovo, which are even further away from the ancient Greek world. The expansion of protoAlbanians clearly had a North to South direction.

Anyway, the Romans devastated the area and exterminated most of the population, so I am not sure how much the Greeks or the Albanians from Epirus descend from ancient Epirotans. This is hard to quantify I think, even with ancient samples (that we do not currently have). I think the most realistic position to hold is that if Epirotan genes have survived at any degree, they are likely present in both Epirotan Greeks and southern Tosks. Both populations share so many similarities anyway (culture, song styles etc.).

So, Greeks and Albanians, please bear in mind that neither of you have the exclusive claim to the ancient Epirotans...

mario_12
02-17-2021, 05:29 AM
Agree with your opinion,the Rhaeto-Etruscan language contributors are some non-negligible link with some branches of G2a(probably include some branches of L497 and L13), feel pity with the lack of Ancient Etruscan and Rhaetian Samples.

Hawk
02-17-2021, 08:13 AM
Yes I do. 100 %. But modified with Glina III Schneckenberg culture, because unknown to most, some of those Central Balkan groups are more derived from Glina III and not Cetina. Similarity with Cetina is due to the fact that Cetina itself derives plenty of its traits from Glina or shows parallel traits. V13's TMRCA is not 3200 years (Urnfield) but much more..

Cetina people were very robust, far more than Iron Age Illyrians or Thracians, either they had heavy Steppe admixture or they "evolved" by themselves. Latter is likely as one of their main graves was from Ljubomir, of 100 % Steppe origin. Similar graves were found also in Albania, Pazhok and Piskove. And in Greece, Lefkada. It is these people who caused destruction of Lerna III and the House of Tiles. Some say these were early Greeks, others disagree.

I looked at evidence again, the Steppe element was atributed to pit-grave but some say in general it wasn't related to Yamnaya.

In any case V13 fits with these and links with Glina III would have spread the V13 around the Carpathians. And then some of these would become part of the Eastern Urnfield.

Some people here are far too obsessed with making V13 originate more towards the C.Europe. So it is more a "civilized hg". My focus is elsewhere, and I really really like what I see from these finds.

I think actually Thracians could have originated among these if they aren't related to Greeks. In any case these are not related to R-CTS11450, if so must be an older clade.

YF64088 Greek's ancestors were Lerna III invaders..

Looking at some autosomal results it seems something carried Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic admixture to the East.

Why Glina III - Schneckenberg? What's the dot you assume to connect with them? I read their origin is unknown yet they are related to Crnavoda. I doubt E-V13 had anything to do with Crnavoda.

I base my assumptions that any origin given for E-V13 more east than Dalmatian coast is unplausible. It has to be a place somewhere between Dalmatian coast and Spain. Everything in between is likely IMO, even more Northern but within the horizontal trajectory of Dalmatian coast and Spain.

Riverman
02-17-2021, 09:42 AM
Yes I do. 100 %. But modified with Glina III Schneckenberg culture, because unknown to most, some of those Central Balkan groups are more derived from Glina III and not Cetina. Similarity with Cetina is due to the fact that Cetina itself derives plenty of its traits from Glina or shows parallel traits. V13's TMRCA is not 3200 years (Urnfield) but much more..

Cetina people were very robust, far more than Iron Age Illyrians or Thracians, either they had heavy Steppe admixture or they "evolved" by themselves. Latter is likely as one of their main graves was from Ljubomir, of 100 % Steppe origin. Similar graves were found also in Albania, Pazhok and Piskove. And in Greece, Lefkada. It is these people who caused destruction of Lerna III and the House of Tiles. Some say these were early Greeks, others disagree.

I looked at evidence again, the Steppe element was atributed to pit-grave but some say in general it wasn't related to Yamnaya.

In any case V13 fits with these and links with Glina III would have spread the V13 around the Carpathians. And then some of these would become part of the Eastern Urnfield.

Some people here are far too obsessed with making V13 originate more towards the C.Europe. So it is more a "civilized hg". My focus is elsewhere, and I really really like what I see from these finds.

I think actually Thracians could have originated among these if they aren't related to Greeks. In any case these are not related to R-CTS11450, if so must be an older clade.

YF64088 Greek's ancestors were Lerna III invaders..

Looking at some autosomal results it seems something carried Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic admixture to the East.

Without having samples from Glina-Schneckenburg a lot is possible, I won't say its completely out of question, but what you said about the TMRCA, what do you mean? The real branching events and splits of E-V13 didn't happen much earlier at all. Of course, the group which rose to prominence and spread E-V13 began to develop and had different lineages before, so they must lived somewhere and began to diversify, but the real expansion and spread, that happened in the LBA-EIA. So you have to come up with a scenario of how they survived in place X, up to that point and profited from the shifts and transitions which took place during Urnfield and with the beginning Iron Age. That's key. Its even of secondary importance where they were sitting before, somewhat more up or down, left or right, but you have to explain how they could profit from this transition so big and being able to spread in all directions, even though the South was the main, the bulk migration. Obviously they had a history before, yes they survived and had more clades already in the EBA and MBA, but the big migrations and splits, the multiplication and growth, that's what happened primary in the LBA to EIA.
So we have just one lineage which survived the steppification, this lineage began to recover in the EBA-MBA, but I guess they were still largely staying together in one place, though first branches could have moved too, its possible. But the main body, the majority was staying together, when they were affected by the cultural transitions during Urnfield. With Urnfield they rapidly grew and spread, those which were still together, not that far from each other and began to migrate in different directions from their most likely North Carpathian homeland. That's the scenario.

Hawk
02-17-2021, 12:11 PM
In addition, i cannot really find much material on Cetina. They were good sailors, good pottery makers, and they were looking for mines in order to gain access to valuable metals, but they were trading their potteries for bronze metal (probably weapons). They sailed through Mediterranean sea, Apuglia and Greece as well. And also moved more north toward North-East Italy by land.

I cannot find if they are descended from Cardium Pottery Farmers. Of course, the only way to either confirm or get out of the equation is if David Reich tests Cetina inhumated bones (they used both inhumation on tumuli and cremation).

Riverman
02-17-2021, 12:19 PM
Besides that, i cannot really find much material on Cetina. They were good sailors, good pottery makers, and they were looking for mines in order to gain access to valuable metals, but they were trading their potteries for bronze metal (probably weapons). They sailed through Mediterranean sea, Apuglia and Greece as well.

I cannot find if they are descended from Cardium Pottery Farmers. Of course, the only way to either confirm or get out of the equation is if David Reich tests Cetina inhumated bones (they used both inhumation on tumuli and cremation).

They combined various cultural influences and are hard to pin down. Indeed, genetic tests might produce very interesting results. But for E-V13, my main problem with those is how Cetina should be responsible for the main spread of E-V13 on the Eastern Balkans and along the Carpathians? I see no pathway for that, for Cetina colonising Bulgaria-Romania-Moldova-Slovakia big time and being ancestral to Daco-Thracians. Yet that's the main group. If we search for the origin of E-V13, we always have to keep these people in mind and search for a pathway, how they got so heavily E-V13 shifted between the EBA and LBA-EIA. That's the main reason I came up with a more Northern origin around the North Carpathians first, because it can explain both the Daco-Thracians and the Western spread during Urnfield and the Iron Age transition, especially with Fluted Ware and Gįva-Holigrady in the centre. Cetina can't do that at all, it appears to be, from my point of view, rather a dead end. So regardless of what haplogroups from Cardial Ware and Bell Beakers or unknown other groups they got, I doubt they really pushed through and being spread like wildfire. Even if, this should have been noted by the Pannonian and Bulgarian studies done already, because that should have been done in the EBA-MBA. After that time, the flow was North -> South for the most part, not vice versa.
So even if Cetina shows E1b, this wouldn't prove the case nor be the final verdict. Because it needs to be a lineage which led to the later spread, not just any kind of E1b. And there needs to be a migration path from Cetina to the East, to spread it there. All of that taken together, its largely excluded from being the real thing and explanation.

gjergj
02-17-2021, 02:37 PM
Well i did not know it was more frequent in albanians than their neighhours - that changes things but it still doesnt explain the lack of numbers amongst albanians today. If these lines were frequent 2 thousand years ago a lot of men carrying these must have died or came together with other groups - is it possible pf7563 belongs to a southern illyrian tribe? As far as I know illyrians were not all the same people, some had slightly different cultures. Could also be a pre illyrian people who lived in southern balkans which is why i mentioned greeks, who are other candidates?

In my opinion diversity and the age of that diversity is the most important element. Especially for the albanian population today that is mostly derived from a genetic bottleneck that was created after the fall of the roman empire dhe the barbarian/sllavic migration in the region. PF7563 has incredible diversity among albanians and is a very good proto Illyrian candidate as is J2b-L283 but with a latter date of arrival and some regional limitations (only north).
As the other haplos followed they were layered on top of each other to create what was latter knows as Illyrians.

gjergj
02-17-2021, 03:17 PM
The same wave hit the three groups at the same time during LBA: Proto-Greeks/Proto-Thracians/Proto-Illyrians, some more some less.

I fully agree. Its the only thing that makes sense currently. One wave hitting all three groups the same as the slavs in the 6-7 century AD.

vettor
02-17-2021, 03:28 PM
One thing I really do not understand is why some people consistently try to claim that Pyrrhus and the Epirotan tribes belong exclusively to the Albanians. This doesn't make sense historically or genetically, for reasons that I will explain.

1) That Epirotans and Macedonians were considered as barbarians by other Greeks has nothing to do with whether they were Greek or not. Other unambiguously Greek groups (e.g. Cretans, Ionians, Cypriots, Pontics) had large (or even predominant) portions of non Greek admixture yet their Greekness was not in doubt. Furthermore, Epirotans spoke an early branch of the Doric Greek tongue, and they also contributed heavily to the Macedonian ethnogenesisis. So I really think the issue is a cultural one, not a genetic one.

The primary reasons for the distinction of Epirotans from other Greeks is that being a peripheral population (like the Macedonians), they were not included as much in the ethnogenesis myths of Central and Southern Greeks, which the latter used to create a loose notion of shared ethnicity. They were also politically organised in a different way, which some later Greek authors considered barbaric.

2) Genetically, we cannot say anything about ancient Epirotans until we have samples. We know for a fact that Epirotan royalty mixed with Illyrian tribes and formed major alliances. Pyrrhus in fact looks very similar to sculptures of Constantine the Great (an Illyrian), and both have facial features that we associate with modern Epirotans (both Greeks and Albanians). However, can you rely only on genes to say whether a particular ancient people belong to modern nations who claim their heritage? What is the cutoff value that makes a historical figure Albanian or Greek? 15%, 25%, 50%? Mind you, genetic exchange was bidirectional, especially if you consider that the vast majority of what is now Albania was largely or fully Hellenised by 200 AD; the local Illyrians were either bilingual or had completely replaced their identity with a Greek one. I am mentioning this just to show that Greeks were having the biggest cultural impact in the area until the arrival of the Slavs.

Even though Albanians probably descend from Illyrians or tentatively related peoples (e.g. Dardanians and Moesians), we know that most of them have nothing to do with the southern Illyrian tribes that were in contact with the Greeks. All genetic and linguistic evidence points that the cradle of Albanians was in north Albania and Kosovo, which are even further away from the ancient Greek world. The expansion of protoAlbanians clearly had a North to South direction.

Anyway, the Romans devastated the area and exterminated most of the population, so I am not sure how much the Greeks or the Albanians from Epirus descend from ancient Epirotans. This is hard to quantify I think, even with ancient samples (that we do not currently have). I think the most realistic position to hold is that if Epirotan genes have survived at any degree, they are likely present in both Epirotan Greeks and southern Tosks. Both populations share so many similarities anyway (culture, song styles etc.).

So, Greeks and Albanians, please bear in mind that neither of you have the exclusive claim to the ancient Epirotans...


Moesians are one of the 4 tribal parts comprising of the thracian tribes , others being Dacians, Getae and Odrysian .............the Dardanians ( the Gheg group of Albanians ) seem to be the original Albanians, non coastal inland people, usually attacked through much of their history by Thracians and later by macedonians ,..... while the Tosks seem to be migrating Ghegs mixed with Epirotes over a very long time ( or mixing with only a few of the 14 epirote tribes, maybe the Chaonians we will find to be one of these )

Kelmendasi
02-17-2021, 04:20 PM
Moesians are one of the 4 tribal parts comprising of the thracian tribes , others being Dacians, Getae and Odrysian .............the Dardanians ( the Gheg group of Albanians ) seem to be the original Albanians, non coastal inland people, usually attacked through much of their history by Thracians and later by macedonians ,..... while the Tosks seem to be migrating Ghegs mixed with Epirotes over a very long time ( or mixing with only a few of the 14 epirote tribes, maybe the Chaonians we will find to be one of these )
It would not be accurate to describe the Tosk dialectal groups as being mixtures of Geg Albanian-speakers and local Epirote tribes. Both the Geg and Tosk dialects split from the same linguistic ancestor, Proto-Albanian, possibly sometime after the fourth century but certainly before the seventh century CE based on the treatment of Slavic loanwords.

Hawk
02-17-2021, 04:41 PM
I fully agree. Its the only thing that makes sense currently. One wave hitting all three groups the same as the slavs in the 6-7 century AD.

Yes, that's a pattern which i have spotted. Probably they were part of Sea People coalition and after losing the Battle of Delta, the survivors settled down in the Balkans permanently.

And it looks like these people really liked the word Sparta (ancient city state in Peloponessus not attested as a word before Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age) and Spartakos (common name among Thracians) which had a certain meaning in their language which is yet unknown by origin.

Johnny ola
02-17-2021, 04:51 PM
It would not be accurate to describe the Tosk dialectal groups as being mixtures of Geg Albanian-speakers and local Epirote tribes. Both the Geg and Tosk dialects split from the same linguistic ancestor, Proto-Albanian, possibly sometime after the fourth century but certainly before the seventh century CE based on the treatment of Slavic loanwords.

Question is how the Proto-Albanian folks would have been in terms of autosomal DNA and ofc if later they assilimated some native elements in the region of Albania(and more specific at the more southern parts).I am really thinkful how Albania would have been genetically before the Slavic expansion..

Kelmendasi
02-17-2021, 04:52 PM
As for the linguistic background of the ancient Epirotes, I agree with the opinion of Croatian linguist Radoslav Katičić in his Ancient Languages of the Balkans (https://archive.org/details/AncientLanguagesOfTheBalkans/page/n61/mode/2up):

"Taking into consideration everything we know at present, we cannot possibly believe with Kretschmer and other scholars that Epirus was in classical antiquity an Illyrian country with only a small Greek enclave at Dodona. The Greek ethnic and linguistic basis there was much broader. But the possibility must be reckoned with that some tribes or parts of tribes were non-Greek and that the immigration from the northern linguistic area, which can be traced through the whole history of Epirus, had begun already at the dawn of recorded history... The slopes of the Pindus, in the broadest sense, are the homeland of the Greek language; from there it spread to the Hellas of later days. But in the highlands remained the rear-guard of the waves of Greek migration. It did not take part in the development of Hellenic culture and thus remained outside the Hellenic world."

gjergj
02-17-2021, 05:35 PM
I have been contacted by one of the admins of the Rrėnjėt project and the E-BY168279* sample on Yfull is actually from Fushė-Krujė which is a town just to the west of Kruja, and is located to the north of the Durrės County. He is not from Tirana. On the project's public results page it can also be seen that there is a E-Y3183+ sample from the ethnographic region and district of Kurbin, which is located to the south of Lezha, he likely belongs to this cluster.

Correct. And Kurbini will have high resolution test completed soon. But it is becoming more and more clear that North East Albania is the origin of many of the important northwest tribes, but not all them of course.

Kelmendasi
02-17-2021, 05:55 PM
Correct. And Kurbini will have high resolution test completed soon. But it is becoming more and more clear that North East Albania is the origin of many of the important northwest tribes, but not all them of course.
Which tribes of Malėsi e Madhe in particular seem to have come from the east or northeast based on Y-DNA?

The only tribe I can really think of where this may apply is the Hoti. The Hoti cluster of J2b-FT124757>FT124983 is parallel to the FT124757 (FT124983-) group that so far has been found in the ethnographic region of Luma which extends from northeastern Albania into the southwest of Kosovo, and I see that it has also been found in a sample from Kaēanik, Kosovo, who belongs to the Kryezi tribe. There is also a sample from Elbasan that belongs to a cluster upstream at FT125046. Historiography does support an eastern or northeastern origin for the Hoti. Their name is first mentioned in the Dečani chrysobulls of 1330 through the toponym Hotina Gora or "mountains of Hoti" which was located around Plav and Gusinje (Guci in Albanian) on the Lim River basin. There seems to have been a migration of the Hoti between 1353 and 1363, and by 1414 they ended up near their present-day tribal location in Malėsi.

Johnny ola
02-17-2021, 05:57 PM
Yes, that's a pattern which i have spotted. Probably they were part of Sea People coalition and after losing the Battle of Delta, the survivors settled down in the Balkans permanently.

And it looks like these people really liked the word Sparta (ancient city state in Peloponessus not attested as a word before Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age) and Spartakos (common name among Thracians) which had a certain meaning in their language which is yet unknown by origin.

This might be an EV13 thing xD?

gjergj
02-17-2021, 07:33 PM
Indeed PF7563 has more basal diversity in Albanians. But it is not possible to connect Albanian with Anatolian languages (to whom PF7562 is surely connected despite the lack of aDNA results). Nevertheless R-Z2705 is a very widespread branch found in all Albanian groups, and one can say probably they originated the language. Albanian does show some distant Armenian and Greek connections from what I know.

Albanian is probably related to Messapian, and it seems that language was not proper Illyrian, could have been an Illyrian creole with a proto-Dardanian/proto-Paeonian base, in LBA some of these people were pushed from the central Balkans to Southern Albania by Urnfield movements and there another Illyrian culture was formed separate and different from Glasinac-Mati (Illyrian proper). Either that or Bessi with Dardano-Paeonian-Thracian creole. There were peoples other than Illyrians and Thracians, such as Dardanians and Paeonians who were related according to archeological evidence. These were a pre-LBA collapse people. And I really find it difficult to believe these didn't carry some V13 branches.

Some E-V13 branches such as E-Y3183 don't seem "Urnfield" at all, there are three separate Bulgarian Y3183* clades with a MBA TRMCA, in addition to some Y3183 downstreams clades there. It resembles more Zimnicea-Plovdiv than anything else.

E-A7065 is found in a Romanian and Rusyn who is 8/67 with Albanians. In cluster with Rusyn are few others such as Hungarian with a Serb surname and also one Romanian from study. So Romanians in this clade are very suspect with regards to being Dacian. There is another Romanian at FTDNA who is E-PH1280 in cluster with Albanians. Generally it seems plenty of Vlach migrants from the South among their Z5018, more natives it seems among CTS9320.

There are some interesting results from there for example they have both clades of E-Y35953 on a weak sample. Only Poles of ethnicities in the area have as much.

The crucial point is that you and others take W.European V13 as relevant. Of course we can find British in just about every branch of V13, it doesn't mean it originates from there. Westerners must show structure in their clades, and I can tell you I know of various their clades which are clearly Roman. And after the sample increases in SE Europe we shall see how many of them will not have matches in SE Europe.. W.European show signs of being very scattered, they often fail to achieve higher TMRCA in their branches (of course they can't if they came with the Romans).. On the other hand in SE Europe there are plenty of structured branches.

It is silly to look at the current YFull tree with two Romanian samples, with 3 Greeks (more at FTDNA, most didn't upload to YFull). Albanians are best deep tested but they too have some additional samples/clades. FTDNA tree is also chaotic, it places in upstream clades people who only tested few SNP's so one thinks they are some basals when in fact many are way downstream. I know enough of Romanian and Greek V13 to add more than 40 Romanian and Greek flags each, in addition to other various SE European samples. And then you would see the whole picture. You'd see how actually diverse V13 is.

The diversity of PF7562 in Yfull is fully reflected of the current testing among Albanians and more new clades are comming.
Z2103 is not fully reflected in Yfull. there is more diversity of Z2103 among albanians from what is in Yfull.

vettor
02-17-2021, 08:55 PM
As for the linguistic background of the ancient Epirotes, I agree with the opinion of Croatian linguist Radoslav Katičić in his Ancient Languages of the Balkans (https://archive.org/details/AncientLanguagesOfTheBalkans/page/n61/mode/2up):

"Taking into consideration everything we know at present, we cannot possibly believe with Kretschmer and other scholars that Epirus was in classical antiquity an Illyrian country with only a small Greek enclave at Dodona. The Greek ethnic and linguistic basis there was much broader. But the possibility must be reckoned with that some tribes or parts of tribes were non-Greek and that the immigration from the northern linguistic area, which can be traced through the whole history of Epirus, had begun already at the dawn of recorded history... The slopes of the Pindus, in the broadest sense, are the homeland of the Greek language; from there it spread to the Hellas of later days. But in the highlands remained the rear-guard of the waves of Greek migration. It did not take part in the development of Hellenic culture and thus remained outside the Hellenic world."

as per your note above ....we cannot possibly believe with Kretschmer and other scholars that Epirus was in classical antiquity an Illyrian country ...........many "new" and also Italian scholars know the Epirotes have no association with the illyrians ( be they Dalmatians or others ) and that many have sought to falsely place the Epirotes where it fits their agenda.
Clearly the Epirotes sit on their own , not Greek, not Illyrian, not Macedonian nor paeonian .............The dardanians as you state , seem the only "neighbour" that has a late merger/association with the Epirotes

Huban
02-17-2021, 10:11 PM
Why Glina III - Schneckenberg? What's the dot you assume to connect with them? I read their origin is unknown yet they are related to Crnavoda.

Because Govedarica found in proto-Cetina phase links with the Glina III, which included contacts according to him. Besides the funerary ritual was also very similar.


I doubt E-V13 had anything to do with Crnavoda.

E-V13 may have lots to do with the very late Cernavoda. Even be most of their Y-DNA at the time. Either that or it belonged to the Wave after.



I base my assumptions that any origin given for E-V13 more east than Dalmatian coast is unplausible. It has to be a place somewhere between Dalmatian coast and Spain. Everything in between is likely IMO, even more Northern but within the horizontal trajectory of Dalmatian coast and Spain.

Yes the Neolithic origin seems to be Dalmatian definitely. But we are talking about the BA V13 bottleneck. So your argument based on Neolithic aDNA is not so relevant. Yet I believe V13 did start out in Dalmatia, as members of an expansive IE culture.




In addition, i cannot really find much material on Cetina. They were good sailors, good pottery makers, and they were looking for mines in order to gain access to valuable metals, but they were trading their potteries for bronze metal (probably weapons). They sailed through Mediterranean sea, Apuglia and Greece as well. And also moved more north toward North-East Italy by land.

Indeed you can't, most of relevant information is Yugoslav.



I cannot find if they are descended from Cardium Pottery Farmers. Of course, the only way to either confirm or get out of the equation is if David Reich tests Cetina inhumated bones (they used both inhumation on tumuli and cremation).

They were descended of Cardium Pottery (I wouldn't call them really Farmers, they were more fishermen) in the form of one culture they had, which was partially IE'd. Partially. They had Bell beaker influence, and they had Steppe influence. Despite the fact that most archeologists used to consider Bell Beakers non-IE, their view was that those Cardials were speaking an IE language and they were completely submerged, because of Steppe element.

Huban
02-17-2021, 10:33 PM
Without having samples from Glina-Schneckenburg a lot is possible, I won't say its completely out of question, but what you said about the TMRCA, what do you mean? The real branching events and splits of E-V13 didn't happen much earlier at all. Of course, the group which rose to prominence and spread E-V13 began to develop and had different lineages before, so they must lived somewhere and began to diversify, but the real expansion and spread, that happened in the LBA-EIA. So you have to come up with a scenario of how they survived in place X, up to that point and profited from the shifts and transitions which took place during Urnfield and with the beginning Iron Age. That's key. Its even of secondary importance where they were sitting before, somewhat more up or down, left or right, but you have to explain how they could profit from this transition so big and being able to spread in all directions, even though the South was the main, the bulk migration. Obviously they had a history before, yes they survived and had more clades already in the EBA and MBA, but the big migrations and splits, the multiplication and growth, that's what happened primary in the LBA to EIA.
So we have just one lineage which survived the steppification, this lineage began to recover in the EBA-MBA, but I guess they were still largely staying together in one place, though first branches could have moved too, its possible. But the main body, the majority was staying together, when they were affected by the cultural transitions during Urnfield. With Urnfield they rapidly grew and spread, those which were still together, not that far from each other and began to migrate in different directions from their most likely North Carpathian homeland. That's the scenario.

Legnyel culture remnants were chased off by the Steppe incursions, I find it hard to believe that E-L618 would be the guy who assimilated. Besides there are plenty of CWC, BB finds already.. If that happened in N.Carpathians I would have expected to see some results by now in CWC/BB.

Gava culture lasted from 1100 BC to 800 BC. Obviously V13 has much higher TMRCA so one has to explain the existence of various older clades. Most V13 clades surely are not related to Gava culture. Case can be made for CTS9320, FGC11451, L241.. Which are probably at least half of all V13 but still plenty of other clades..

There is plenty of unclear information about some of these cultures.

Yet the fact is there was a Cardial survivor element which was IE'd within the proto-Cetina phase. Evidence shows a Steppe element settled there and most likely prior to that they were on good terms.

Cetina cannot explain the spread of V13 but this Steppe element can. So my position is that only the E-Y37092 is Cetina proper. CTS1273 or vast majority of it not.

According to Gimbutas both Glina III Schneckenberg and Cetina affiliated Steppe elements belonged to Wave 2, Maykop related. Some other views place this Steppe element in an Earlier Wave Cernavoda III context. It is not Yamnaya by the looks of it.

Interestingly if one is to follow the linguistic path that Thracian was related to Baltic or Germanic, if Cetina Steppe element is Wave 1, it might be possible to connect it with the Baltic and related families if CWC is not Yamnaya derived.

Some conflicting views on Glina III and origin of the tumulii in Cetina related Steppe cultures. There are views that Glina was even in big part of Anatolian BA origin, others gave it various influences including Cernavoda. Same tumulii are by some connected to Caucasus, East Mediterranean. Yet Gimbutas obviously thought they were Maykop related.

Johnny ola
02-17-2021, 10:40 PM
Legnyel culture remnants were chased off by the Steppe incursions, I find it hard to believe that E-L618 would be the guy who assimilated. Besides there are plenty of CWC, BB finds already.. If that happened in N.Carpathians I would have expected to see some results by now in CWC/BB.

Gava culture lasted from 1100 BC to 800 BC. Obviously V13 has much higher TMRCA so one has to explain the existence of various older clades. Most V13 clades surely are not related to Gava culture. Case can be made for CTS9320, FGC11451, L241.. Which are probably at least half of all V13 but still plenty of other clades..

There is plenty of unclear information about some of these cultures.

Yet the fact is there was a Cardial survivor element which was IE'd within the proto-Cetina phase. Evidence shows a Steppe element settled there and most likely prior to that they were on good terms.

Cetina cannot explain the spread of V13 but this Steppe element can. So my position is that only the E-Y37092 is Cetina proper. CTS1273 or vast majority of it not.

According to Gimbutas both Glina III Schneckenberg and Cetina affiliated Steppe elements belonged to Wave 2, Maykop related. Some other views place this Steppe element in an Earlier Wave Cernavoda III context. It is not Yamnaya by the looks of it.

Interestingly if one is to follow the linguistic path that Thracian was related to Baltic or Germanic, if Cetina Steppe element is Wave 1, it might be possible to connect it with the Baltic and related families if CWC is not Yamnaya derived.

Some conflicting views on Glina III and origin of the tumulii in Cetina related Steppe cultures. There are views that Glina was even in big part of Anatolian BA origin, others gave it various influences including Cernavoda. Same tumulii are by some connected to Caucasus, East Mediterranean. Yet Gimbutas obviously thought they were Maykop related.

If you don't mind i would really love to see some of your sources about the stuff you posting in this specific thread.Would you like to show us how you ending up in these conclusions?I mean...do you have any proves or something to show?

Huban
02-17-2021, 10:49 PM
How do you know they were robust? Have you seen samples(skulls etc)? And how you think the autosomal DNA of Cetina would have been?

I read an anthropological analysis of them. Not too much was left because of nature of their burials.

Of the most preserved skulls, one very robust man was described as "paleo-Mediterranean", author meant Javier Bardem like people. However such robust types were not recorded there in Neolithic, and the same author claimed robust Iron Gates Cromagnons evolved into the Gracile Mediterranean population, and that did not happen, rather the EEF influx happened. Kurgan people were also often described as "paleo-Mediterranean". Woman was moderately robust but had very pronounced zygomatics, broad mandibles, some facial flattening. It seems these carried 50, 60 % of some Steppe admixture to me. One ultra-Steppe burial of that culture was of "foreign type".

Hawk
02-17-2021, 11:02 PM
If you don't mind i would really love to see some of your sources about the stuff you posting in this specific thread.Would you like to show us how you ending up in these conclusions?I mean...do you have any proves or something to show?

He is right on that Cetina spread to Central Balkans.


The Cetina group is identified by its characteristic decorated pottery and burials under tumuli, which spread in the central Balkans (Govedarica 2006; Forenbaher 2018a) and over Dalmatia down to Peloponnese and further across the Central Mediterranean in the second half of the 3rd millennium cal BC. Given the paucity of stratified and closed Cetina contexts and of 14C dating, to propose a reliable chronology for this widespread and long-lasting phenomenon represents a challenging enterprise (see recently Forenbaher 2018a: 135–140). It is clear that that the Ljubljana-Cetina phenomenon comprises several phases covering much of the 3rd millennium cal BC. The earliest one (Ljubljana-Adriatic) seems to belong to the second quarter of the third millennium BC, while the last two (here referred to as Cetina 1 and Cetina 2) are likely to encompass both the second half of the 3rd and the first century of the 2nd millennium cal BC (Gori 2020). On the basis of absolute dating combined with ceramic typology from different sites in the Mediterranean, Jung and Weninger (2015) suggest a terminus post quem for their classic Cetina (corresponding to Cetina 2) around 2250 cal BC. It can be thus suggested that Belotić-Bela Crkva is contemporaneous with the phase Cetina 1, while Cetina 2 would be contemporaneous with Bubanj-Hum III and the second horizon of Armenochori (see here below). The last is also suggested by the presence of few decorated potsherds with Cetina 2 features in Sovjan level 7 (Gori 2015a). However, it has to be noted that tankards recalling Belotić-Bela Crkva examples were recovered in both Sovjan levels 8 and 7 (Gori 2015a: 87–90). This is the first attempt of correlating absolute chronology of the central and western Balkans, however a larger number of radiocarbon dates from reliable contexts is required to improve this correlation and better understand cultural connections between these areas.



Read the article on general as well if you are interested: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/radiocarbon/article/radiocarbon-dating-the-3rd-millennium-bc-in-the-central-balkans-a-reexamination-of-the-early-bronze-age-sequence/EEE00CA20809AB9D0BCE858DA8E407B2

I am not really sure if Huban is right, but we really need aDNA to clear things out.

Johnny ola
02-17-2021, 11:11 PM
He is right on that Cetina spread to Central Balkans.



Read the article on general as well if you are interested: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/radiocarbon/article/radiocarbon-dating-the-3rd-millennium-bc-in-the-central-balkans-a-reexamination-of-the-early-bronze-age-sequence/EEE00CA20809AB9D0BCE858DA8E407B2

I am not really sure if Huban is right, but we really need aDNA to clear things out.

Do you think their aDNA could have been close to the Croatian IA sample ?

Hawk
02-17-2021, 11:15 PM
Do you think their aDNA could have been close to the Croatian IA sample ?

Probably more Barcin related ancestry, so in our modern context Western Mediterranean.

Huban
02-17-2021, 11:17 PM
He is right on that Cetina spread to Central Balkans.



Garašanin calls funerary practices and pottery of Belotić Bela Crkva as most closely related to Glina III Schneckenberg. In this instance it would mean probably some CTS1273 spreading from across the Danube.

Cambridge article doesn't mention the important Eastern part. And Ljubljana he mentions is Middle Adriatic Ljubljana, which was mostly Cardial in origin. I mean where did they get their funeral from? Their funeral has nothing to do with Ljubljana culture, or BB.

I think it is probably not a coincidence that tumulli with cremation occurred starting with these EBA cultures to the late Antiquity Daco-Thracian surviving cultures.

Huban
02-17-2021, 11:21 PM
Probably more Barcin related ancestry, so in our modern context Western Mediterranean.

Actually no, Western Mediterranean is defined by some WHG input which Barcin lacks. More Eastern Mediterranean and Daco-Thracians had a lot more East Med than Illyrians.

Hawk
02-17-2021, 11:22 PM
Garašanin calls funerary practices and pottery of Belotić Bela Crkva as most closely related to Glina III Schneckenberg. In this instance it would mean probably some CTS1273 spreading from across the Danube.

Cambridge article doesn't mention the important Eastern part. And Ljubljana he mentions is Middle Adriatic Ljubljana, which was mostly Cardial in origin. I mean where did they get their funeral from? Their funeral has nothing to do with Ljubljana culture, or BB.

I think it is probably not a coincidence that tumulli with cremation occurred starting with these EBA cultures to the late Antiquity Daco-Thracian surviving cultures.

I cannot find any source where Daco-Thracians used cremation under tumuli, this funerary practice was mostly practiced in Iron Age Greece.

Johnny ola
02-17-2021, 11:24 PM
Actually no, Western Mediterranean is defined by some WHG input which Barcin lacks. More Eastern Mediterranean and Daco-Thracians had a lot more East Med than Illyrians.

So you think they had some CHG/Iran N genes?

Hawk
02-17-2021, 11:24 PM
Actually no, Western Mediterranean is defined by some WHG input which Barcin lacks. More Eastern Mediterranean and Daco-Thracians had a lot more East Med than Illyrians.

An Eastern Mediterranean is classified also by the presence of Iran/CHG component.

Huban
02-17-2021, 11:24 PM
I cannot find any source where Daco-Thracians used cremation under tumuli, this funerary practice was mostly practiced in Iron Age Greece.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Tumuli_culture

Until 4th, even 5th century AD..

Hawk
02-17-2021, 11:28 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Tumuli_culture

Until 4th, even 5th century AD..

Although i agree Wikipedia is an excellent source for introductory topics, in this case citing a study would be more appropriate.

Huban
02-17-2021, 11:48 PM
G25 run with Yamnaya, German CWC, Kura Araxes to represent some CHG and EEF Cardial, Peloponnese, Bulgarian Krepost, Dzhulyunitsa, Trypillia, Lasinja.. See what G25 chooses as the best Neolithic component for these.


Target: HRV_MBA:I4331
Distance: 1.7110% / 0.01710955
45.2 Corded_Ware_DEU
31.4 GRC_Peloponnese_N
11.4 HUN_Balaton_Lasinja_CA
8.8 HRV_Cardial_N
3.2 UKR_Trypillia


Target: HRV_MBA:I4332
Distance: 2.3530% / 0.02352991
30.2 Yamnaya_UKR
29.0 HUN_Balaton_Lasinja_CA
18.6 UKR_Trypillia
10.4 BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N
10.4 GRC_Peloponnese_N
1.4 Corded_Ware_DEU

Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK17A
Distance: 2.4180% / 0.02418023
32.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
30.2 BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N
14.8 HUN_Balaton_Lasinja_CA
11.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
10.8 HRV_Cardial_N



Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK15
Distance: 3.2844% / 0.03284360
51.6 HUN_Balaton_Lasinja_CA
47.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
1.4 BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N


Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK16A
Distance: 3.7574% / 0.03757449
51.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
48.2 HUN_Balaton_Lasinja_CA



Mokrin samples have more of Lasinja related EEF element (more Central Euro)

Thracian IA

Target: BGR_IA:I5769
Distance: 1.9634% / 0.01963374
24.0 HRV_Cardial_N
18.8 BGR_Krepost_N
18.8 UKR_Trypillia
16.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
13.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
5.4 BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N
2.4 GRC_Peloponnese_N
1.0 Yamnaya_UKR

Getae

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy192
Distance: 2.6011% / 0.02601118
25.6 HRV_Cardial_N
25.2 BGR_Krepost_N
23.6 Yamnaya_UKR
8.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
7.0 UKR_Trypillia
5.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
4.6 HUN_Balaton_Lasinja_CA



Target: Scythian_MDA:scy197 E-V13+
Distance: 3.1182% / 0.03118202
28.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
26.6 BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N
20.4 HRV_Cardial_N
11.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
7.4 BGR_Krepost_N
4.6 UKR_Trypillia
1.2 Yamnaya_UKR



Target: Scythian_MDA:scy300
Distance: 3.2685% / 0.03268508
41.6 HRV_Cardial_N
25.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
14.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
8.0 BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N
7.8 Yamnaya_UKR
3.2 UKR_Trypillia


Urnfield from Hungary, others were alot more Northern.
Target: Scythian_HUN:DA198
Distance: 2.7964% / 0.02796446
55.0 HRV_Cardial_N
38.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
6.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan


Hmm, Daco-Thracians, and especially Getae from Moldova having more Dalmatian Cardial ancestry than Illyrians from Dalmatia?? :) :) And they seem to have far more of that than local Cucuteni ancestry..

Hawk
02-17-2021, 11:52 PM
Huban, can you share your model here?

Technically HRV_MBA is not Illyrian. Illyrians formed in Late Bronze Age.

Johnny ola
02-17-2021, 11:58 PM
Indeed Illyrians are a more LBA/IA issue.You can model the Croatian IA sample thought.

Huban
02-18-2021, 12:02 AM
Huban, can you share your model here?

Technically HRV_MBA is not Illyrian. Illyrians formed in Late Bronze Age.

I just used these samples randomly but to have representatives from various Neolithics in the area. Primarily my point was it seems there is some Cardial Dalmatian admixture in the Eastern parts. There is one IA Illyrian. He's like these with something like 10 % of BB like.

HUN_Balaton_Lasinja_CA:I1907,0.120652,0.182795,0.0 37335,-0.068153,0.07663,-0.028726,-0.003055,-0.001154,0.044177,0.0831,-0.001786,0.012289,-0.023042,-0.000413,-0.028094,-0.01127,0.016559,0.000507,0.002765,-0.005253,-0.003743,0.005441,-0.010353,-0.017472,0.002155
Corded_Ware_DEU,0.1298723,0.1110989,0.0568699,0.08 87606,0.0040622,0.0337179,0.001034,0.0025616,-0.0280402,-0.0395815,0.0003734,0.0023378,-0.0068234,-0.0095647,0.0240903,0.0072393,-0.0146682,0.0042188,-0.0020237,0.0046773,0.0029074,0.0013601,0.0060884, 0.0183278,8.38e-05
Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.0873355,0.0452545,0.1106285 ,-0.028313,0.042531,0.00846,-0.003461,-0.0521535,-0.0707985,0.0002435,0.004421,-0.0043115,-0.0202305,0.0323015,0.0107395,-0.0002605,-0.011529,-0.005531,0.002376,-0.0028075,0.0004325,-0.009367,0.0192795,0.0031135
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318,0.118376,0.180764,0.000377 ,-0.100776,0.048009,-0.050758,-0.00423,-0.008307,0.023725,0.07909,0.00682,0.014537,-0.029435,-0.00578,-0.043702,0.001591,0.035073,0.00038,0.010559,-0.014007,-0.021213,-0.005935,-0.003944,-0.014701,-0.010059
HRV_Cardial_N,0.1233083,0.185165,0.0110623,-0.1009917,0.058575,-0.0501073,-0.0092437,-0.0053843,0.0513353,0.0925153,0.009202,0.016685,-0.026214,0.001055,-0.0417113,-0.017281,0.0122127,0.0006757,0.0111033,-0.0136317,-0.012478,0.005894,-0.0049713,-0.0110053,-0.008143
BGR_Krepost_N,0.1161,0.152329,-0.024513,-0.071383,0.020311,-0.042112,-0.003525,-0.012461,0.005113,0.047746,-0.006333,0.009292,-0.014866,-0.013625,-0.029451,-0.014187,0.019297,0.002027,0.006536,-0.00963,-0.012977,-0.001113,-0.006162,0.000964,-0.001676
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1635,0.111547,0.132019,-0.058454,-0.046835,-0.044008,-0.008925,0.0094,-0.008769,-0.058085,-0.017859,0.00341,0.012289,-0.00773,0.002615,0.006379,-0.002121,0.010431,-0.00076,-0.003771,0.001626,0.011854,-0.00915,0.002218,-0.001687,-0.001078
UKR_Trypillia:I2110,0.124067,0.166547,0.040729,-0.044897,0.073244,-0.031236,0.002585,-0.000231,0.029451,0.054306,-0.007307,-0.002847,-0.010704,0.004954,-0.005157,0.01485,0.038985,0.011782,0.014707,-0.006503,-0.003119,0.009645,0.004437,-0.018075,-0.010179
BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I0706,0.120652,0.164516,0.02941 5,-0.050065,0.066782,-0.028168,0.003055,-0.003692,0.031292,0.065605,-0.004547,0.008393,-0.018434,-0.008945,-0.024158,-0.011668,0.015125,0.008235,0.006788,-0.020885,0.000749,0.009769,-0.007888,-0.017954,-0.00012

Hawk
02-18-2021, 12:07 AM
This is mine:

Target: Hawk_scaled
Distance: 2.6764% / 0.02676404

33.2 Corded_Ware_DEU
24.8 HRV_Cardial_N
21.8 UKR_Trypillia
18.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
2.0 BGR_Krepost_N
0.2 Yamnaya_UKR

This is Illyrian HRV_IA

Target: HRV_IA:I3313
Distance: 2.2903% / 0.02290345

46.8 HRV_Cardial_N
45.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
5.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
3.2 BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N

Huban
02-18-2021, 12:07 AM
Although i agree Wikipedia is an excellent source for introductory topics, in this case citing a study would be more appropriate.

https://archaeology.com.ua/?p=1134

If you can read Ukrainian..

Hawk
02-18-2021, 12:10 AM
Hmm, could it be that E-V13 and Cardial_N autosomal bounced back during Late Bronze Age?

Huban
02-18-2021, 12:11 AM
This is mine:

Target: Hawk_scaled
Distance: 2.6764% / 0.02676404

33.2 Corded_Ware_DEU
24.8 HRV_Cardial_N
21.8 UKR_Trypillia
18.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
2.0 BGR_Krepost_N
0.2 Yamnaya_UKR

This is Illyrian HRV_IA

Target: HRV_IA:I3313
Distance: 2.2903% / 0.02290345

46.8 HRV_Cardial_N
45.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
5.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
3.2 BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N

IA has more of Cardial here, I thought he was similar to these MBA. Modern samples will have more of Kura Araxes, probably some Sidon 700 BC too if one adds it. It seems there was some Roman/Byzantine-age migration from Anatolia/ME to Balkans.

Huban
02-18-2021, 12:12 AM
Hmm, could it be that E-V13 and Cardial_N autosomal bounced back during Late Bronze Age?

Maybe, that one Scythian who is Urnfield actually has most of it.

Hawk
02-18-2021, 12:13 AM
This one looks interesting as well.

Target: GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02
Distance: 2.1051% / 0.02105070

44.8 HRV_Cardial_N
37.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
10.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
6.8 BGR_Krepost_N

Target: GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log04
Distance: 2.7726% / 0.02772585

41.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
37.8 HRV_Cardial_N
11.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
7.8 Yamnaya_UKR
1.4 BGR_Krepost_N

Corded_Ware_DEU + HRV_Cardial_N combination?

Hawk
02-18-2021, 12:17 AM
Maybe, that one Scythian who is Urnfield actually has most of it.

Yes, was he really a Scythian or just joined their ranks. Also Scythians in Hungary? WTF, never knew that. I thought they lived on the extreme shores of Eastern Europe.

davit
02-18-2021, 12:19 AM
Yes, was he really a Scythian or just joined their ranks. Also Scythians in Hungary? WTF, never knew that. I thought they lived on the extreme shores of Eastern Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges

Huban
02-18-2021, 12:25 AM
Yes, was he really a Scythian or just joined their ranks. Also Scythians in Hungary? WTF, never knew that. I thought they lived on the extreme shores of Eastern Europe.

They did rule most Hungarian areas around that time, 500 BC. But the sample in question as well as all Hungarian Scythians have no Scythian autosomal admixture and also by archeological finds they are actually Urnfield. There were urns at those localities too. But because they were Scythian at least politically they were not cremated. Similar to those Scythians from Moldova who were really Getae. And also some "Scythians" from Ukraine, who are some pre-proto-Slavs. Only a few in those studies were real Scythians.

Riverman
02-18-2021, 03:03 PM
Yes, was he really a Scythian or just joined their ranks. Also Scythians in Hungary? WTF, never knew that. I thought they lived on the extreme shores of Eastern Europe.

There were Scythian raids far to the West, and they included real elite Scythians from the East. The Scythians influenced even later Celts, for example with the the famous animal style art and decorations.
But like mentioned, a large portion of the people living like Scythians were of local ancestry. Their story in Central Europe pretty much resembled later Hungarians imho, just less successful.

gjergj
02-18-2021, 05:34 PM
Related to what I wrote before, do we have yDNA evidence for Celtic migrations into the Balkans and Anatolia? In theory, there should be at least some, considering that whole tribes in folk migrations moved down to Pannonia, Balkans and Anatolia. Did any Albanian project recognise such an influence? Because, regardless of how low it might be, it should be there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe

Especially noteworthy are the Scordisci:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

Approximately 2% of Albanian Y should be Celtic. This is based on results at www.rrenjet.com project that has the largest y dna database for albanians. They are mostly L51 and Z631. Mostly east and southern part of albanian territories. almost non existent in the northwest albania.

broder
02-18-2021, 06:23 PM
Z631 Celtic lol

Go take a nap or something

alejandromb92
02-18-2021, 06:28 PM
As far as i know, the only non-R1b Y-DNA that was present among mainland celts were G2a and I2a2, but i don't find impossible that other haplogroups like J2 were present among them, though i find it very difficult.

Hawk
02-18-2021, 06:31 PM
As far as i know, the only non-R1b Y-DNA that was present among mainland celts were G2a and I2a2, but i don't find impossible that other haplogroups like J2 were present among them, though i find it very difficult.

Yeah, hard to believe that's the case.

Riverman
02-18-2021, 07:52 PM
As far as i know, the only non-R1b Y-DNA that was present among mainland celts were G2a and I2a2, but i don't find impossible that other haplogroups like J2 were present among them, though i find it very difficult.

The Celts will be proven to be much more diverse patrilinearly, but still dominated by R1b. So if other haplogroups entered the region with Celts, its unlikely the proportion would be totally different.
However, Ireland is no equivalent for the CE Celts which moved to the South West.
What's the percentage of Western R1b in Albania?

Rrenjet.
02-18-2021, 08:14 PM
The Celts will be proven to be much more diverse patrilinearly, but still dominated by R1b. So if other haplogroups entered the region with Celts, its unlikely the proportion would be totally different.
However, Ireland is no equivalent for the CE Celts which moved to the South West.
What's the percentage of Western R1b in Albania?

Assuming you are referring to R-L51, it is ~0.7-0.9%.

alejandromb92
02-18-2021, 08:24 PM
The Celts will be proven to be much more diverse patrilinearly, but still dominated by R1b. So if other haplogroups entered the region with Celts, its unlikely the proportion would be totally different.
However, Ireland is no equivalent for the CE Celts which moved to the South West.
What's the percentage of Western R1b in Albania?

Yes, it wasn't only R1b-P312, and i personally don't really think celt is an appropiate term to define the diversity of western european tribes all together, like i don't see accurate to call R1b-P312 the only celtic haplogroup.

Not sure about the % of R1b in Albania, but it seems that the most common clade would be Z2103, and U152 might be foundable.

gjergj
02-18-2021, 08:30 PM
For those who support Illyrian origin theory, you are right.
But for us who are more in favor of Daco-Thracian theory, your statement is not precise.

It is true that ancient samples are needed but from the current population samples and distances between clades albanians today descent mostly from "Illyrians" that were located in the area of north east albania/northwest macedonia and border area between albania/Kosova and albania/montenegro. And may be a smaller group that was pushed southwest from the slavs form the area of Kosova and southern serbia (some of this were latinized Illyrians or latinized Kelts, Goths).
Look at the majority of the Albanian clades of the major haplogroups and distances that they have between albanian and bulgarians and romanians.
J2b -L283 most of it is west balkans
R-PF7563 most west balkans
R-Z2705 west balkan
E-V13 is the only one that is more spread between these countries but its all over the balkans and it make no sense to say that it was not present in west balkans until slav migration.
etc.
The numbers are quite clear. So there is no real basis of Daco/Thracian theory with current population results (it was possible to have this when there were few results and with low resolution, but we are past that point now) unless it becomes possible with ancient samples, which I personally doubt but we should keep the option open just to be open minded.

gjergj
02-18-2021, 08:42 PM
One thing I really do not understand is why some people consistently try to claim that Pyrrhus and the Epirotan tribes belong exclusively to the Albanians. This doesn't make sense historically or genetically, for reasons that I will explain.

1) That Epirotans and Macedonians were considered as barbarians by other Greeks has nothing to do with whether they were Greek or not. Other unambiguously Greek groups (e.g. Cretans, Ionians, Cypriots, Pontics) had large (or even predominant) portions of non Greek admixture yet their Greekness was not in doubt. Furthermore, Epirotans spoke an early branch of the Doric Greek tongue, and they also contributed heavily to the Macedonian ethnogenesisis. So I really think the issue is a cultural one, not a genetic one.

The primary reasons for the distinction of Epirotans from other Greeks is that being a peripheral population (like the Macedonians), they were not included as much in the ethnogenesis myths of Central and Southern Greeks, which the latter used to create a loose notion of shared ethnicity. They were also politically organised in a different way, which some later Greek authors considered barbaric.

2) Genetically, we cannot say anything about ancient Epirotans until we have samples. We know for a fact that Epirotan royalty mixed with Illyrian tribes and formed major alliances. Pyrrhus in fact looks very similar to sculptures of Constantine the Great (an Illyrian), and both have facial features that we associate with modern Epirotans (both Greeks and Albanians). However, can you rely only on genes to say whether a particular ancient people belong to modern nations who claim their heritage? What is the cutoff value that makes a historical figure Albanian or Greek? 15%, 25%, 50%? Mind you, genetic exchange was bidirectional, especially if you consider that the vast majority of what is now Albania was largely or fully Hellenised by 200 AD; the local Illyrians were either bilingual or had completely replaced their identity with a Greek one. I am mentioning this just to show that Greeks were having the biggest cultural impact in the area until the arrival of the Slavs.

Even though Albanians probably descend from Illyrians or tentatively related peoples (e.g. Dardanians and Moesians), we know that most of them have nothing to do with the southern Illyrian tribes that were in contact with the Greeks. All genetic and linguistic evidence points that the cradle of Albanians was in north Albania and Kosovo, which are even further away from the ancient Greek world. The expansion of protoAlbanians clearly had a North to South direction.

Anyway, the Romans devastated the area and exterminated most of the population, so I am not sure how much the Greeks or the Albanians from Epirus descend from ancient Epirotans. This is hard to quantify I think, even with ancient samples (that we do not currently have). I think the most realistic position to hold is that if Epirotan genes have survived at any degree, they are likely present in both Epirotan Greeks and southern Tosks. Both populations share so many similarities anyway (culture, song styles etc.).

So, Greeks and Albanians, please bear in mind that neither of you have the exclusive claim to the ancient Epirotans...

Who said that they belonged exclusively to the albanians? can you refer to that comment?
regarding what they are check for example in Yfull haplos that are more native to south albania and not middle age migration: J2a. see if you find any albanian J2a that is close to Greek J2a. Check J1. We all know more tests are needed but the ones that we have thus far give no indication of "greek" connection.
I don't understand why when convenient we take greek historians at face value but when not we start to doubt their clarity.
Of course as we all have said before some ancient samples will clarify this issue.

gjergj
02-18-2021, 08:45 PM
Which tribes of Malėsi e Madhe in particular seem to have come from the east or northeast based on Y-DNA?

The only tribe I can really think of where this may apply is the Hoti. The Hoti cluster of J2b-FT124757>FT124983 is parallel to the FT124757 (FT124983-) group that so far has been found in the ethnographic region of Luma which extends from northeastern Albania into the southwest of Kosovo, and I see that it has also been found in a sample from Kaēanik, Kosovo, who belongs to the Kryezi tribe. There is also a sample from Elbasan that belongs to a cluster upstream at FT125046. Historiography does support an eastern or northeastern origin for the Hoti. Their name is first mentioned in the Dečani chrysobulls of 1330 through the toponym Hotina Gora or "mountains of Hoti" which was located around Plav and Gusinje (Guci in Albanian) on the Lim River basin. There seems to have been a migration of the Hoti between 1353 and 1363, and by 1414 they ended up near their present-day tribal location in Malėsi.

Kastrati and Shala with 100% certainty.

gjergj
02-18-2021, 08:52 PM
Z631 Celtic lol

Go take a nap or something

spread of z631 matches more the celtic expansion. even if they might have been initially "Illyrians" they might have been Celticized as the spread and timeline matches the Celts more than any other group.
Are you a napping specialist? please spread some more advice. may be will be more helpful.

Bane
02-18-2021, 08:56 PM
It is true that ancient samples are needed but from the current population samples and distances between clades albanians today descent mostly from "Illyrians" that were located in the area of north east albania/northwest macedonia and border area between albania/Kosova and albania/montenegro. And may be a smaller group that was pushed southwest from the slavs form the area of Kosova and southern serbia (some of this were latinized Illyrians or latinized Kelts, Goths).
Look at the majority of the Albanian clades of the major haplogroups and distances that they have between albanian and bulgarians and romanians.
J2b -L283 most of it is west balkans
R-PF7563 most west balkans
R-Z2705 west balkan
E-V13 is the only one that is more spread between these countries but its all over the balkans and it make no sense to say that it was not present in west balkans until slav migration.
etc.
The numbers are quite clear. So there is no real basis of Daco/Thracian theory with current population results (it was possible to have this when there were few results and with low resolution, but we are past that point now) unless it becomes possible with ancient samples, which I personally doubt but we should keep the option open just to be open minded.

I'd say this is not a good way to draw conclusions.
Most of R-L51 is today in Western Europe but almost no one claims that R-L23 originated in Western Europe.
I-PH908 has highest frequency in the Balkans but most people believe it originated North of Carpathians.

If we discuss only based on modern distribution what matters is diversity. For an example, if you go through R-Z2705 subclades what we see is that it does not have the highest diversity in the Western Balkans. The same is especially valid for E-BY3880.
Regarding J-L283 and R-PF7563 I really never checked.

But modern distribution is just a piece of the puzzle. There are more arguments.
One, though not a major argument could exactly be the absence of R-L51 among Albanians. It is hard to accept that R-L51 was common in Pannonian basin 2000 years ago but it was absent from the Western Balkans. If Albanians descend from Illyrians one would expect more R-L51.

And there is a lot more to say about Daco-Thracian but I'm sure I wouldn't change your mind. :)

Kelmendasi
02-18-2021, 08:59 PM
Kastrati and Shala with 100% certainty.
These must have been older migrations since both these tribes are recorded in their present-day territories by the fifteenth century CE. The Kastrati show up in the Venetian cadastre of Shkodra of 1416-1417 and the Shala are recorded in the Ottoman defter of the sanjak of Shkodra of 1485.

Kelmendasi
02-18-2021, 09:04 PM
If we discuss only based on modern distribution what matters is diversity. For an example, if you go through R-Z2705 subclades what we see is that it does not have the highest diversity in the Western Balkans.
As far as I am aware, R1b-Z2705 is most diverse in the western Balkans. Same goes for its basal diversity. Now if the same could be said for its parent clade, R1b-CTS1450 (or CTS9219), I am not too sure.

The linguistic evidence for Albanian having come from a Dacian, Thracian, or some other related language is rather weak. The burden of proof mainly lies with those who push such theories, rather than those who do not.

gjergj
02-18-2021, 09:08 PM
I'd say this is not a good way to draw conclusions.
Most of R-L51 is today in Western Europe but almost no one claims that R-L23 originated in Western Europe.
I-PH908 has highest frequency in the Balkans but most people believe it originated North of Carpathians.

If we discuss only based on modern distribution what matters is diversity. For an example, if you go through R-Z2705 subclades what we see is that it does not have the highest diversity in the Western Balkans. The same is especially valid for E-BY3880.
Regarding J-L283 and R-PF7563 I really never checked.

But modern distribution is just a piece of the puzzle. There are more arguments.
One, though not a major argument could exactly be the absence of R-L51 among Albanians. It is hard to accept that R-L51 was common in Pannonian basin 2000 years ago but it was absent from the Western Balkans. If Albanians descend from Illyrians one would expect more R-L51.

And there is a lot more to say about Daco-Thracian but I'm sure I wouldn't change your mind. :)

I see. So you have a better argument because somehow the other side is presumed not to be open minded. Brilliant.

gjergj
02-18-2021, 09:12 PM
These must have been older migrations since both these tribes are recorded in their present-day territories by the fifteenth century CE. The Kastrati show up in the Venetian cadastre of Shkodra of 1416-1417 and the Shala are recorded in the Ottoman defter of the sanjak of Shkodra of 1485.

At Rrenjet you have the other results that show that both of those lines have migrated there during middle ages. they are only a branch of a broader group that is based on the north eastern part of albania.

Hawk
02-18-2021, 09:21 PM
I see. So you have a better argument because somehow the other side is presumed not to be open minded. Brilliant.

Unfortunately they just keep refining their propaganda theory. I have never ever seen them to be fully honest.

rms2
02-18-2021, 09:27 PM
Kastrati and Shala with 100% certainty.

Kastrati?

That doesn't sound like it bodes well for any kind of offspring, let alone Y-DNA offspring.

Bane
02-18-2021, 09:30 PM
Unfortunately they just keep refining their propaganda theory. I have never ever seen them to be fully honest.

Daco-Thracian theory is well established theory for more than 50 years.
I don't see why would it be propaganda and what would I want to accomplish by supporting it?

Kelmendasi
02-18-2021, 09:46 PM
Kastrati?

That doesn't sound like it bodes well for any kind of offspring, let alone Y-DNA offspring.
The name is ultimately derived from the Latin castrum (plural castra), possibly transmitted through the Byzantine or Medieval Greek κάστρον (kįstron) however this may only be the case for Kastrioti. The castra were fortified military encampments originally used by the Romans, so the tribal names derived from this likely just signify that the group lived near a castra.

rms2
02-18-2021, 09:48 PM
The name is ultimately derived from the Latin castrum (plural castra), possibly transmitted through the Byzantine or Medieval Greek κάστρον (kįstron however this may only be the case for Kastrioti. The castra were fortified military encampments originally used the Romans, so the tribal names derived from this likely just signify that the group lived near a castra.

Sounds like the name of a tribe of eunuchs, though, you have to admit.

If I was a member of the Kastrati, I think I'd call myself something else.

rafc
02-18-2021, 10:00 PM
I know enough of Romanian and Greek V13 to add more than 40 Romanian and Greek flags each, in addition to other various SE European samples. And then you would see the whole picture. You'd see how actually diverse V13 is.

Could you post those here or send them to me by PM? I would be very interested!

rafc
02-18-2021, 10:37 PM
Because Govedarica found in proto-Cetina phase links with the Glina III, which included contacts according to him. Besides the funerary ritual was also very similar.

Can you point me to the article where he writes this? I have actually been thinking that a possible solution for reconciling the BY14151 diversity in the Western Balkans with the lack of CTS5856 diversity there is an origin around the Carpathians in for example Glina, with an early migration westwards impacting Cetina. But I could find no publication indicating links between the two.


Indeed you can't, most of relevant information is Yugoslav.

The past few years there has been a renewed interest in Cetina, and there is actually a current research project by the archeologists Maja Gori, Helena Thomas and Giulia Recchia.

Some recent information can be found in articles in these volumes:
https://www.aegeussociety.org/en/new_book/esperos-hesperos-the-aegean-seen-from-the-west/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342304983_Objects_Ideas_and_Travelers_Contacts_bet ween_the_Balkans_the_Aegean_and_Western_Anatolia_d uring_the_Bronze_and_Early_Iron_Age_Volume_to_the_ Memory_of_Alexandru_Vulpe_Proceedings_of_the_Confe rence_in_T

Riverman
02-18-2021, 10:38 PM
Could you post those here or send them to me by PM? I would be very interested!

Me too. :wave:

Hawk
02-18-2021, 10:46 PM
Can you point me to the article where he writes this? I have actually been thinking that a possible solution for reconciling the BY14151 diversity in the Western Balkans with the lack of CTS5856 diversity there is an origin around the Carpathians in for example Glina, with an early migration westwards impacting Cetina. But I could find no publication indicating links between the two.



The past few years there has been a renewed interest in Cetina, and there is actually a current research project by the archeologists Maja Gori, Helena Thomas and Giulia Recchia.

Some recent information can be found in articles in these volumes:
https://www.aegeussociety.org/en/new_book/esperos-hesperos-the-aegean-seen-from-the-west/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342304983_Objects_Ideas_and_Travelers_Contacts_bet ween_the_Balkans_the_Aegean_and_Western_Anatolia_d uring_the_Bronze_and_Early_Iron_Age_Volume_to_the_ Memory_of_Alexandru_Vulpe_Proceedings_of_the_Confe rence_in_T

What's your current opinion or guess on E-V13?

Aspar
02-18-2021, 11:38 PM
From the available archaeological material on internet there is absolutely no relationship between Cetina and Glina III Schneckenberg. Cetina seems to be amalgam of the previous cultures in the region such as Vucedol and incoming Bell Beaker groups. Glina III Schneckenberg (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vXljf8JqmkoC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=monteoru+culture&source=bl&ots=QyshfoFjPp&sig=ACfU3U1hCexmf1OHpK_iS6BnBvEdvi_Lpw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwipiZfd5qnqAhW_aRUIHWjCCS0Q6AEwDHoECAoQA Q#v=onepage&q=schneckenberg&f=false) on the other hand developed on the basis of Gumelnitsa and was influenced by Cernavoda and Foltesti.
The only similarity seems to be the burial rite, cist graves surrounded by stone slabs under tumuli although there aren't many graves from Glina III Schneckenberg found. The 'small' problem however is that this kind of burial was very widespread in the EBA and it's not restricted to Schneckenberg only so doesn't have to indicate Schneckenberg influence on Cetina.
On the other hand, it does seem likely that E-BY14151 or it's ancestor were born around the Carpathians and an earlier migration towards the Western Balkans contributed to it's diversity there. However E-BY14151's age and the aforementioned archaeological context makes me believe that this earlier migration didn't effect Cetina but rather it's ancestor the Vucedol Culture. When it comes to Vucedol, there certainly seem to be observed a migration of Steppe pastoralists, coming from direction of the Carpathians. The single most greatest influence these pastoralists brought was the burial under tumuli. In the last phase of Vucedol a new phenomenon is observed (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=m_mAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=vucedol+burials&source=bl&ots=0x7z1HC-rb&sig=ACfU3U2_66kNHVS9OVZmelU8srs0gK_ccQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjGpYvEl6XqAhU2REEAHZsFCQsQ6AEwBnoECAgQA Q#v=onepage&q=vucedol%20burials&f=false), a central cremation burial under tumuli. These kind of burials appear at the eastern most sphere of the Vucedol Culture, in Batajnica and Vojka in Serbia and Moldova Veche in Romania.

Kelmendasi
02-18-2021, 11:56 PM
At Rrenjet you have the other results that show that both of those lines have migrated there during middle ages. they are only a branch of a broader group that is based on the north eastern part of albania.
Very interesting. I do see on the phylogenetic trees that J2b-PH1751>Z38299 does seem to have a centre around Malėsia e Gjakovės with the Z38299>Y52453+ cluster of the Krasniqi, Gashi, and Nikaj, as well as a divergent Z38299 cluster that has been found in Morinė. The Z38299>FT134628 cluster that the Kastrati belong to is also shared with a couple samples from Lurė, Dibėr, who form a parallel cluster. However, there are some basal or divergent clusters under PH1751 that have been found more in the northwest or north-central regions, such as the Y52453- cluster found around Puka.

Vasile
02-19-2021, 02:02 AM
My three friends are E haplogroup from website morley,
Krushevo
https://i.imgur.com/eS0mQ90.jpg

Prilep&Ohrid
https://i.imgur.com/U4UEZl7.jpg

Veles
https://i.imgur.com/egS3j2O.jpg

And my female friends father have following results i don't know what's that but E appears also, they are from Kavadarci,

https://i.imgur.com/DS7i6me.jpg

Is there a specific E which is for some Balkan ethnicities or no?

Hawk
02-19-2021, 06:18 AM
They are all E-V13 except for your female friend father who is predicted as A weirdly.

gjergj
02-19-2021, 07:28 AM
Very interesting. I do see on the phylogenetic trees that J2b-PH1751>Z38299 does seem to have a centre around Malėsia e Gjakovės with the Z38299>Y52453+ cluster of the Krasniqi, Gashi, and Nikaj, as well as a divergent Z38299 cluster that has been found in Morinė. The Z38299>FT134628 cluster that the Kastrati belong to is also shared with a couple samples from Lurė, Dibėr, who form a parallel cluster. However, there are some basal or divergent clusters under PH1751 that have been found more in the northwest or north-central regions, such as the Y52453- cluster found around Puka.

Yes, The central part of northeast has the largest diversity. There are possibly other tribes that fit this trend but it will require a bit more testing in north east to confirm more definitively. But Kelmend tribe seems safe for the moment from this trend even though two new results are expected soon that will shed more light on Kelmendi.

Hawk
02-19-2021, 07:35 AM
Pretty much yes.G people kicked out from everywhere.They used to be a major lineage in EU at the neolithic but steppe people and the later west asian migrations from anatolia/aegean kicked them out.Anatolia(modern Turkey) and Caucasus is the last hideway of G folks.Be proud for G men xD :biggrin1::laugh::lol:

According to eupedia notorious crime boss Al Capone was Y-DNA G2a. :lol:

rafc
02-19-2021, 07:53 AM
What's your current opinion or guess on E-V13?

I think an origin in Central/Eastern Europe is likely, with the first expansion happening there. It would have spread to NW-Europe and the Western Balkans with parts staying in the region of origin. This first expansion was between 2700 and 2200 BC. Then there was a bottleneck of some 600 years before a second expansion happened in a number of clades, probably between 1600 and 1100BC. Most successful were CTS9320, FGC11450 and L241. Those are the clades that dominate the Balkans today, and they probably moved there at the LBA/EAI transition. As a result I also think Greek colonization was not such a big factor in the spread of V13, I think most V13 arrived in Greece and Italy at the end of the Roman age and early middle ages. So fleeing the Balkans from the succession of invasions towards regions under Roman control (Southern Italy, Greece).
But there's still issues, I think branching would support an older origin for V13 in Greece and Southern Italy, but if so, why don't we see it in ancient DNA? Maybe with more testing we will see more recent connections.

Now the original region of origin doesn't need to be identical to the one where the second expansion started, but it's also not excluded. I think both were probably somewhere around the Carpathian mountains. But the first expansion was quite impressive and you would expect it to be somewhat visible in a way BB makes P312 expansion visible. I think it's very hard today to point out exactly where that was. Too far east and you're in the region of well tested Steppe-cultures that today have much less genetic impact in the Balkans than V13. Too much to the west and you are again faced with explaining why the Western Balkans has so little diversity, which is not the case for other groups like PF7589. To the north you get in the region of BB and CW and it becomes hard to understand why V13 would have been so successful on the Balkans, but L51 not.

So when I use that nice map with all ancient DNA from 3000-1000BC there is a big gap that fits an area in between (A), that would be my guess, but I would like to narrow it down:

43397

Aspar
02-19-2021, 08:02 AM
My three friends are E haplogroup from website morley,
Krushevo
https://i.imgur.com/eS0mQ90.jpg

Prilep&Ohrid
https://i.imgur.com/U4UEZl7.jpg

Veles
https://i.imgur.com/egS3j2O.jpg

And my female friends father have following results i don't know what's that but E appears also, they are from Kavadarci,

https://i.imgur.com/DS7i6me.jpg

Is there a specific E which is for some Balkan ethnicities or no?

E haplogroup is the second most represented haplogroup in Macedonians: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20725-Y-dna-of-ethnic-Macedonians-from-four-DNA-studies/page2
Most of it is E-V13, > 20%. E-V13 among the Slavic speakers in Macedonia it's not only frequent but quite diverse as well even on very few testees unlike other Balkan people who have way more samples.
Your friends are downstream of E-CTS1273. So far, based on NGS tests and SNP packs the following subclades downstream of E-CTS1273 are found among the Slavic speaking people with origins from Macedonia:
E-BY14150*; E-BY3880*; E-Y16729*; E-BY5022*; various subclades downstream of E-CTS9320; various subclades downstream of E-Z5018 etc.
E-CTS1273 in general is a very widespread haplogroup in Europe whose likely origin we are discussing here is around the Carpathians. The most ancient sample with this haplogroup found so far is an Iron Age sample from Moldova's south. During the Iron Age in Southern Moldova used to live people called Carpi and Getae. These were part of a broader group known to ancient authors as Daco-Thracians. However it's not out of ordinary that E-V13 was present among other people such as ancient Macedonians as well.
I recommend to get your friends into genetic testing for ancestry and to test their male line. Your subclade is also interesting and very rare among the Macedonians, just over 2%. The best thing to buy is Big-Y from FTDNA which during promotion can cost as little as 399$. However if that's too expensive you can start with a Y37 str markers in addition to a SNP test either with FTDNA or Yseq.

Now, the biggest surprise is your female friends father. A0a is an African subclade, mostly found among people with origins from Sub Saharan Africa. It's not encountered among the Macedonians either on public testing or academic studies. You might want to tell this interesting find to your friend and get her to test her father Y chromosome further with the tests I already mentioned above. There is also Macedonian DNA Project on FTDNA you can become a member of but only if you test.

If you have further questions come back to me...

Edit: I forgot to ask, to who does the raw data which returned A0a belong? Is it hers or her father raw data?

Hawk
02-19-2021, 08:15 AM
I think an origin in Central/Eastern Europe is likely, with the first expansion happening there. It would have spread to NW-Europe and the Western Balkans with parts staying in the region of origin. This first expansion was between 2700 and 2200 BC. Then there was a bottleneck of some 600 years before a second expansion happened in a number of clades, probably between 1600 and 1100BC. Most successful were CTS9320, FGC11450 and L241. Those are the clades that dominate the Balkans today, and they probably moved there at the LBA/EAI transition. As a result I also think Greek colonization was not such a big factor in the spread of V13, I think most V13 arrived in Greece and Italy at the end of the Roman age and early middle ages. So fleeing the Balkans from the succession of invasions towards regions under Roman control (Southern Italy, Greece).
But there's still issues, I think branching would support an older origin for V13 in Greece and Southern Italy, but if so, why don't we see it in ancient DNA? Maybe with more testing we will see more recent connections.

Now the original region of origin doesn't need to be identical to the one where the second expansion started, but it's also not excluded. I think both were probably somewhere around the Carpathian mountains. But the first expansion was quite impressive and you would expect it to be somewhat visible in a way BB makes P312 expansion visible. I think it's very hard today to point out exactly where that was. Too far east and you're in the region of well tested Steppe-cultures that today have much less genetic impact in the Balkans than V13. Too much to the west and you are again faced with explaining why the Western Balkans has so little diversity, which is not the case for other groups like PF7589. To the north you get in the region of BB and CW and it becomes hard to understand why V13 would have been so successful on the Balkans, but L51 not.

So when I use that nice map with all ancient DNA from 3000-1000BC there is a big gap that fits an area in between (A), that would be my guess, but I would like to narrow it down:

43397

So what is this first expansion, what archeological culture can you associate with that?

The second expansion during LBA perfectly fits the various Urnfield-related groups that flooded the Balkans and Greece. Otherwise if not E-V13, then for such a movement and change we should find other Y-DNA which benefited from that period of transition and so far no other Y-DNA is fitter candidate from Balkans.

losAntonis
02-19-2021, 08:42 AM
And my female friends father have following results i don't know what's that but E appears also, they are from Kavadarci,

https://i.imgur.com/DS7i6me.jpg

A0a is a strange result and I doubt it is the right one. It is just the most likely prediction, so it is quite likely from my point of view, that he is E1b, also.
Therefore please do the Morley prediction again and show a screenshot ot the right site of the screen, after scrolling completely down for the Suggestions A0a and E1b1a1a1e.
Then we can look together if it is the one or the other. See my blog article about how to read Morley predictions. https://antoniosdnaproject.de/y-haplogroup-from-atdna-raw-data/

On the other side you can use the https://cladefinder.yseq.net/ which is an other predictor from YSEQ and Hunter Provyn.

Riverman
02-19-2021, 09:47 AM
I also think Greek colonization was not such a big factor in the spread of V13, I think most V13 arrived in Greece and Italy at the end of the Roman age and early middle ages.

I completely agree with your view, but in this respect I think that your doubts are justified and it spread earlier. Its possible the frequency rose, but I guess Greeks brought a lot of E-V13 especially from Dorian settlements to Southern Italy. I don't think a much later or other movement could explain the modern distribution that well.


According to eupedia notorious crime boss Al Capone was Y-DNA G2a. :lol:

The most prominent member was Stalin:

Joseph Stalin (born Ioseb Besarionis dzе Jugashvili) was, according to a genetic test on one of his grandsons (Alexander Burdonsky), a member of Y-DNA haplogroup G2a1a (FGC595/Z6553)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M201

rafc
02-19-2021, 10:50 AM
So what is this first expansion, what archeological culture can you associate with that?

The second expansion during LBA perfectly fits the various Urnfield-related groups that flooded the Balkans and Greece. Otherwise if not E-V13, then for such a movement and change we should find other Y-DNA which benefited from that period of transition and so far no other Y-DNA is fitter candidate from Balkans.

A culture that was present in that red circled region. Glina seems like a good candidate, but it's hard to find good information on it. As far as I know there are no C14 dates for Glina, so it's chronology is only estimated, and links to other cultures like Schneckenberg are disputed.
In a broader sense I think V13 itself probably originated in a late Cucuteni-Tripolye context. We know M78 was present there, and genetic wise CCT was more neolithic like than steppe, that would fit a group like V13 whose ancestor L618 was present in the Neolithic in SE-Europe. CCT groups survived in different ways after the collapse of most CCT mega-settlements. So several scenario's are possible. Maybe V13 fled to safety in the Carpathians early on, and later expansion started from there? Maybe V13 remained east of the Carpathians in old CCT areas, and expanded there, with some groups moving westwards?

Riverman
02-19-2021, 11:30 AM
A culture that was present in that red circled region. Glina seems like a good candidate, but it's hard to find good information on it. As far as I know there are no C14 dates for Glina, so it's chronology is only estimated, and links to other cultures like Schneckenberg are disputed.
In a broader sense I think V13 itself probably originated in a late Cucuteni-Tripolye context. We know M78 was present there, and genetic wise CCT was more neolithic like than steppe, that would fit a group like V13 whose ancestor L618 was present in the Neolithic in SE-Europe. CCT groups survived in different ways after the collapse of most CCT mega-settlements. So several scenario's are possible. Maybe V13 fled to safety in the Carpathians early on, and later expansion started from there? Maybe V13 remained east of the Carpathians in old CCT areas, and expanded there, with some groups moving westwards?

I too tend towards Lengyel-Sopot and TCC, but I don't think they survived in isolation, because that wouldn't have worked out. Rather they were, similar to I1 or R1b, present in the Epi-Corded cultural networks that emerged after the huge spread of Corded Ware people and culture. And from within, by factors unknown to us, an assimilated clan became more prominent within these networks. So there is actually no real need for them to be very isolated, even less so for the second wave expansion after the second bottleneck for the E1b1b survivors. Latest after that, I would completely deny any sort of isolation. Probably during the first phase they were still a people on their own, but in the second, that was after they became, probably by force, fully integrated in the steppified world - latest.
Its like it was in historical times too, we have such notices of one formerly small clan rising to prominence, probably in a situation of unrest and disarray, or a transitionary phase, and over a couple of generations a new group emerges or an old one being dominated by those which rose to power. And that's exactly what happened in the single biggest event for E-V13, which is directly connected to Urnfield and the Iron Age transition.

The question is why they survived in the first place and what helped them to rise to first a more stable, then more influential position, and the reason was most likely that TCC was a metallurgical centre, especially in the Carpathian mountains. So I guess the most valuable people for the new steppe masters were miners and smiths. The Carpathian centre of metallurgy was highly important throughout the whole Bronze Age. They also participated the first in the iron metal working innovations, yet at the same time, the Carpathians lost part of their strategical position afterwards, because Iron is "more democratic or tribal" than Bronze. It could be mined in many places, so the trade routes collapsed and the iron metal work started to be more local. That's again when smiths and miners from the Carpathians are likely to have moved out to both influence and work for new tribes and groups, especially after the original early Iron Age centres like Teleac collapsed. I see places like Teleac trying to keep a monopolistis position on Iron metal works, especially weapons. Eventually, that trial failed in my opinion. This should have led to a real, large scale dispersion of mining and metal working experts.
Especially early Hallstatt was so strongly influenced by the East, including the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, that this is a direct pathway, after Urnfield first, for E-V13 carriers to the West and into the realm of the Celts, helping them to actually take more land and unify the old Bell Beaker world under their rule. In Thracia and Greece too, the Urnfield and early Iron Age movements were key, because afterwards things became somewhat more stable for a time. So that's the time window where big shifts should have taken place.
And in the red circled area lies exactly the source and centre of Gįva-Holigrady and Fluted Ware, with the first being the epicentre of early Iron working and they build fortresses like Teleac, trying to monopolise iron weapons.

Hawk
02-19-2021, 11:31 AM
A culture that was present in that red circled region. Glina seems like a good candidate, but it's hard to find good information on it. As far as I know there are no C14 dates for Glina, so it's chronology is only estimated, and links to other cultures like Schneckenberg are disputed.
In a broader sense I think V13 itself probably originated in a late Cucuteni-Tripolye context. We know M78 was present there, and genetic wise CCT was more neolithic like than steppe, that would fit a group like V13 whose ancestor L618 was present in the Neolithic in SE-Europe. CCT groups survived in different ways after the collapse of most CCT mega-settlements. So several scenario's are possible. Maybe V13 fled to safety in the Carpathians early on, and later expansion started from there? Maybe V13 remained east of the Carpathians in old CCT areas, and expanded there, with some groups moving westwards?

I just see a fundamental problem with your model, Cucuteni-Tripolye so far doesn't even have E-L618 or E-V13, it didn't show. The culture was predominantly G2a, even the Bulgarian Late Neolithic which more or less would have been similar groups to Cucuteni showed 0% E-L618/E-V13.

On the other hand we have both archeological evidence and genetical for E-L618/E-V13 connection with Cardium Pottery Culture who seems to have been influenced by an Natufian-like/Iberomaurusian-like culture.

1. E-L168 was found in Neolithic Croatia, Cardium Pottery Culture.

2. E-V13 mutation was found in Spain, Late Neolithic and with 500 year difference with E-L618 in Croatia. We know from archeological evidence Cardium farmers started from South Albania/North Greece where we do have some chunks of E-L618 here and there and expanded on Dalmatia, North Italy, South France and ultimately North-East Spain. So we have the trajectory of migration and this migration was very slow, not fast paced.

3. We have for the first time a group of E-M78 in Late Neolithic Micheslberger Culture which are yet unresolved, and according to Stephen Shennan Michelsberger farmers came from Mediterranean shores.

rafc
02-19-2021, 12:14 PM
I just see a fundamental problem with your model, Cucuteni-Tripolye so far doesn't even have E-L618 or E-V13, it didn't show. The culture was predominantly G2a, even the Bulgarian Late Neolithic which more or less would have been similar groups to Cucuteni showed 0% E-L618/E-V13.

On the other hand we have both archeological evidence and genetical for E-L618/E-V13 connection with Cardium Pottery Culture who seems to have been influenced by an Natufian-like/Iberomaurusian-like culture.

G2a has also been found in Cardium Pottery. This was an early Neolithic culture, dating from the first arrival of farmers in SE-Europe. It might very well be that L618 arrived with Cardium pottery, but that does not exclude that it's descendants are present in a late Neolithic culture more to the east. As I said, M78 was found in CCT and could be something deeper. Where do you think V13 originated?

Hawk
02-19-2021, 12:29 PM
G2a has also been found in Cardium Pottery. This was an early Neolithic culture, dating from the first arrival of farmers in SE-Europe. It might very well be that L618 arrived with Cardium pottery, but that does not exclude that it's descendants are present in a late Neolithic culture more to the east. As I said, M78 was found in CCT and could be something deeper. Where do you think V13 originated?

Since the earliest split in yfull is from Germany and Scotland (probably a Central European migrant again) i think somewhere between Alps and North/West Carpathians(probably mountain dwellers) heading more east following the Danube river trajectory during Middle Bronze Age. Exactly the time when we see desctruction of Ottomani Culture and similar ones from South Carpathians and heading deeper in Balkans around Serbia, then during LBA pushing further South in various directions.

Or it is as Huban is proposing.

Riverman
02-19-2021, 12:47 PM
I just see a fundamental problem with your model, Cucuteni-Tripolye so far doesn't even have E-L618 or E-V13, it didn't show. The culture was predominantly G2a, even the Bulgarian Late Neolithic which more or less would have been similar groups to Cucuteni showed 0% E-L618/E-V13.

On the other hand we have both archeological evidence and genetical for E-L618/E-V13 connection with Cardium Pottery Culture who seems to have been influenced by an Natufian-like/Iberomaurusian-like culture.

1. E-L168 was found in Neolithic Croatia, Cardium Pottery Culture.

2. E-V13 mutation was found in Spain, Late Neolithic and with 500 year difference with E-L618 in Croatia. We know from archeological evidence Cardium farmers started from South Albania/North Greece where we do have some chunks of E-L618 here and there and expanded on Dalmatia, North Italy, South France and ultimately North-East Spain. So we have the trajectory of migration and this migration was very slow, not fast paced.

3. We have for the first time a group of E-M78 in Late Neolithic Micheslberger Culture which are yet unresolved, and according to Stephen Shennan Michelsberger farmers came from Mediterranean shores.

That's no issue, because E-L618/E-V13 is very unlikely to have been in the majority anywhere. The majority of these early groups was always G2, so what do you make out of it? The real importance lies in the fact that Lengyel-Sopot and TCC where in the region and carried E1b1b. We know from the general low level variation, that E1b1b was fairly widespread in Neolithic Europe, it accompanied other patrilineages throughout. Yet the rise of E-V13 can be attributed to special circumstances, to a rise to prominence from within a steppified population and cultural environment. In that sense it was pure chance and you won't prove it by saying that this or that group had more E1b1b in the Neolithic, because it doesn't matter. More than 90 percent of those early Neolithic lineages died, nearly everywhere. They left no significant legacy at all. Even the modern G2a can be, in Europe, in many places attributed to secondary expansions, to similar scenarios as for E-V13. So the percentages in the Neolithic are totally unimportant. The only thing that matters is that the precursor or E-V13 itself was present, and that's probably true from Spain to the Ukraine, from Germany to Sicily. That doesn't help.
The bottleneck really means that it was probably just one clan, one small group of men, possibly even one single man, which "really made it". You can't deduce his origin from percentages in the Neolithic. And again, TCC and Lengyel-Sopot are extremely, really extremely likely to have carried E-V13, even if we don't have found it yet. We can't solve that this way anyway, because just assume the successful clan/individual came from a people which just carried 5 percent E-V13. How are the chances to spot it in the record at all? Its possibile we will never know, but what we can know, what we should be able to recognise, is when the increase in frequency did place and from which direction it was coming from. We probalby have a first sample from Nitra of E-V13, which would be extremely, extremely important, because while Nitra is in my opinion too Western and was very much dominated by R1a, it could point in the right direction. So far we have almost nothing from early Lusatian and Gįva-Holigrady culture respectively. These might be absolutely key.

Vasile
02-19-2021, 05:58 PM
E haplogroup is the second most represented haplogroup in Macedonians: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20725-Y-dna-of-ethnic-Macedonians-from-four-DNA-studies/page2
Most of it is E-V13, > 20%. E-V13 among the Slavic speakers in Macedonia it's not only frequent but quite diverse as well even on very few testees unlike other Balkan people who have way more samples.
Your friends are downstream of E-CTS1273. So far, based on NGS tests and SNP packs the following subclades downstream of E-CTS1273 are found among the Slavic speaking people with origins from Macedonia:
E-BY14150*; E-BY3880*; E-Y16729*; E-BY5022*; various subclades downstream of E-CTS9320; various subclades downstream of E-Z5018 etc.
E-CTS1273 in general is a very widespread haplogroup in Europe whose likely origin we are discussing here is around the Carpathians. The most ancient sample with this haplogroup found so far is an Iron Age sample from Moldova's south. During the Iron Age in Southern Moldova used to live people called Carpi and Getae. These were part of a broader group known to ancient authors as Daco-Thracians. However it's not out of ordinary that E-V13 was present among other people such as ancient Macedonians as well.
I recommend to get your friends into genetic testing for ancestry and to test their male line. Your subclade is also interesting and very rare among the Macedonians, just over 2%. The best thing to buy is Big-Y from FTDNA which during promotion can cost as little as 399$. However if that's too expensive you can start with a Y37 str markers in addition to a SNP test either with FTDNA or Yseq.

Now, the biggest surprise is your female friends father. A0a is an African subclade, mostly found among people with origins from Sub Saharan Africa. It's not encountered among the Macedonians either on public testing or academic studies. You might want to tell this interesting find to your friend and get her to test her father Y chromosome further with the tests I already mentioned above. There is also Macedonian DNA Project on FTDNA you can become a member of but only if you test.

If you have further questions come back to me...

Edit: I forgot to ask, to who does the raw data which returned A0a belong? Is it hers or her father raw data?

Bra , i mixed DNA data's , that's her results , her father is also E, but how she can receive results for y-dna ?

Father's results

https://i.imgur.com/5xVJ2GG.png

Riverman
02-19-2021, 06:36 PM
Bra , i mixed DNA data's , that's her results , her father is also E, but how she can receive results for y-dna ?

The chip tries to get a result for both sexes, and picks up some snippets of DNA I guess. Since there is not much to get from her, the prediction takes the most basal option.

Aspar
02-19-2021, 06:47 PM
Bra , i mixed DNA data's , that's her results , her father is also E, but how she can receive results for y-dna ?

Father's results

https://i.imgur.com/5xVJ2GG.png

If it's a MyHeritage test, there are still SNPs related to the Y chromosome found even if it's a female though these are so few that most of the time gives an A haplogroup...

This is astonishing, four of four. You know, I run statistics for Macedonians based on results off FTDNA and 23andMe and E-V13 is in lead. However from the public studies on Macedonians it comes second best. Only one study have shown prevalence of E-V13, ironically tho it had more samples >270 than the other studies. Is it because most of the samples are collected from Skopje and the surrounding I'm not sure but the slight lead of I-CTS10228 over E-V13 is contradicting these private tests.
If you have 23andMe test can you give me the results of Macedonians? I'm interested mostly in Y haplogroups. It will help me adding more samples to the statistics.

Vasile
02-20-2021, 10:21 AM
If it's a MyHeritage test, there are still SNPs related to the Y chromosome found even if it's a female though these are so few that most of the time gives an A haplogroup...

This is astonishing, four of four. You know, I run statistics for Macedonians based on results off FTDNA and 23andMe and E-V13 is in lead. However from the public studies on Macedonians it comes second best. Only one study have shown prevalence of E-V13, ironically tho it had more samples >270 than the other studies. Is it because most of the samples are collected from Skopje and the surrounding I'm not sure but the slight lead of I-CTS10228 over E-V13 is contradicting these private tests.
If you have 23andMe test can you give me the results of Macedonians? I'm interested mostly in Y haplogroups. It will help me adding more samples to the statistics.

I think all these group tests are from Capitals? Skopje is multi-cultural living with many ethnicities and mixed people especially Macedo-Serbs/Bosnians, I personally have few mixed friends, two of them are refugees one is half Bosnian one full Bosnian, so I think these tests do not show the right picture? I'm pretty new but if you looking for Macedonian genetics, search everywhere except Skopje in this times, there are still old Skopjans but half of the population is not native here in Skopje:D
Btw i have only one from 23andMe of these friends , i will send you data in private message.

Hawk
02-20-2021, 11:17 AM
I have checked Sicilian E-V13 in FTDNA(those who tested downstream) and they are nothing like Balkan E-V13.

peloponnesian
02-20-2021, 12:28 PM
According to eupedia notorious crime boss Al Capone was Y-DNA G2a. :lol:

Also Stalin and King Richard III.. Reminds me of old discussions when people thought that haplogroups defined personality lol

BukeKrypEZemer
02-20-2021, 03:16 PM
Regarding BY4526,Albanian under E-S10743 is basal in life mode on Yfull, so at least no close connection to Hungary. Though I must admit I really struggle with understandig our path.

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 04:13 PM
This must surely mean that those of us who persevered are the strongest ;)

G seemed to survive most amongst ancient greeks - could be that it played a big role in the civilization that j2a people were building. You also find big amounts of g2a in turkey and south italy where greeks moved to

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 04:15 PM
G seemed to survive most amongst ancient greeks - could be that it played a big role in the civilization that j2a people were building. You also find big amounts of g2a in turkey and south italy where greeks moved to

Βoth J and G arrived in Greece and Italy from Anatolia and not the opposite.

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 04:39 PM
In my opinion diversity and the age of that diversity is the most important element. Especially for the albanian population today that is mostly derived from a genetic bottleneck that was created after the fall of the roman empire dhe the barbarian/sllavic migration in the region. PF7563 has incredible diversity among albanians and is a very good proto Illyrian candidate as is J2b-L283 but with a latter date of arrival and some regional limitations (only north).
As the other haplos followed they were layered on top of each other to create what was latter knows as Illyrians.

No thats not how it works. A tribe isnt created by coming to new land and learning the language of the originals - thats assimilation. The illyrians clearly pushed the greeks further south (and some mixed to later become epirotes etc) which is why i believe pf7563 might have something to do with greeks. It looks like it has ancient presence but much stronger in south - i believe illyrians outnumbered these after wiping most of them out - right now it looks like illyrians may have carried 2/3 of these when they moved into the balkans - r1b z2103, j2b l283, v13, (less chance r1a l1029) but without ancient dna from the correct time we cant say which

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 04:40 PM
Βoth J and G arrived in Greece and Italy from Anatolia and not the opposite.

Whats your point? Looks like ancient greeks were from anatolia

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 04:46 PM
Moesians are one of the 4 tribal parts comprising of the thracian tribes , others being Dacians, Getae and Odrysian .............the Dardanians ( the Gheg group of Albanians ) seem to be the original Albanians, non coastal inland people, usually attacked through much of their history by Thracians and later by macedonians ,..... while the Tosks seem to be migrating Ghegs mixed with Epirotes over a very long time ( or mixing with only a few of the 14 epirote tribes, maybe the Chaonians we will find to be one of these )

There are very few reported conflicts between illyrians and thracians - looks like illyrians were more violent than thracians overall and may have survived their heritage better. This is why you find less thracian influence today as most of east europe has turned slavic and latin (romanian) yet a non thracian language in the west survived - albanian. If you look at where most of thracians lived, those regions are greatly outnumbered today by south slavs and even roman remnants at times

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 04:47 PM
Whats your point? Looks like ancient greeks were from anatolia

Υou mean minoan/cycladic Greece and even helladic Greece?Yes...pretty much G and J.But IE Greeks i don't think so.G and J are both west asian markers.They arrived in europe with migrations towards the west...

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 04:57 PM
Approximately 2% of Albanian Y should be Celtic. This is based on results at www.rrenjet.com project that has the largest y dna database for albanians. They are mostly L51 and Z631. Mostly east and southern part of albanian territories. almost non existent in the northwest albania.

Z631 likely has nothing to do with celts it could be a re-input through western romans or germans, L51 is likely to be celtic

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 05:03 PM
I'd say this is not a good way to draw conclusions.
Most of R-L51 is today in Western Europe but almost no one claims that R-L23 originated in Western Europe.
I-PH908 has highest frequency in the Balkans but most people believe it originated North of Carpathians.

If we discuss only based on modern distribution what matters is diversity. For an example, if you go through R-Z2705 subclades what we see is that it does not have the highest diversity in the Western Balkans. The same is especially valid for E-BY3880.
Regarding J-L283 and R-PF7563 I really never checked.

But modern distribution is just a piece of the puzzle. There are more arguments.
One, though not a major argument could exactly be the absence of R-L51 among Albanians. It is hard to accept that R-L51 was common in Pannonian basin 2000 years ago but it was absent from the Western Balkans. If Albanians descend from Illyrians one would expect more R-L51.

And there is a lot more to say about Daco-Thracian but I'm sure I wouldn't change your mind. :)

Your idea of illyrians is clearly wrong, they had nothing to do with L51 people but were in conflicts against them

R-Z2705 diversity is higher up, they were wiped out by south slavic invasions and assimilated and the few that survived either moved to albania or were already there. Z2705 has very tiny frequency in south slavic people but has diversity

vettor
02-20-2021, 05:06 PM
There are very few reported conflicts between illyrians and thracians - looks like illyrians were more violent than thracians overall and may have survived their heritage better. This is why you find less thracian influence today as most of east europe has turned slavic and latin (romanian) yet a non thracian language in the west survived - albanian. If you look at where most of thracians lived, those regions are greatly outnumbered today by south slavs and even roman remnants at times

maybe , the Illyrians being more closer ( living next to ) to the celts of central europe and Halstatt culture groups are more violent than the thracians, even though the thracians are a bigger group

romanhad a hard time in the illyrian wars than against thracians ( dacian s)

illyrians involved in the illyrian revolt

https://i.postimg.cc/Dyg1DJvb/illyrian-revolt.png (https://postimages.org/)

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 05:14 PM
Yes, The central part of northeast has the largest diversity. There are possibly other tribes that fit this trend but it will require a bit more testing in north east to confirm more definitively. But Kelmend tribe seems safe for the moment from this trend even though two new results are expected soon that will shed more light on Kelmendi.

Could L283 be an indicator of a Dardanian tribe - though obviously they wouldnt have carried just that. Ethnically they were classified as illyrians but sometimes also as part thracian so would have had other branches in any case

lacreme
02-20-2021, 05:18 PM
If it's a MyHeritage test, there are still SNPs related to the Y chromosome found even if it's a female though these are so few that most of the time gives an A haplogroup...



I'm sorry for going off topic but reading your post I have the following question,
I'm currently trying to help a greek friend of mine gather whatever info he can about his unknown maternal grandfather (recently discovered NPE) . His mother took a MyHeritage test and after reading your exchange of posts with Vasile (and realising that his female friend's father really had a E clade though a different subclade than her prediction) I ran her data through Morley's YDNA predictor.
I got the following results using the 2 different trees

43432
43433

What would be the most probable YDNA clade of her biological father ? A subclade of J (being a prediction on both trees ) , a different subclade of E, a subclade of R1b or could it be something completely different altogether ?

peloponnesian
02-20-2021, 05:28 PM
G seemed to survive most amongst ancient greeks - could be that it played a big role in the civilization that j2a people were building. You also find big amounts of g2a in turkey and south italy where greeks moved to

Problem with G2a is it went all over south and central Europe with the Early Neolithic Farmers and we don't have many modern samples so it's hard to discern specific migration paths (for the time being). Some of it is from historical Greeks for sure but a lot of Italian G2a is indigenous and not from the Greek colonisation period, like the subclades that are ubiquitous in Sardinia. Even my clade G-L91 which is "European" (don't like these descriptives but for the sake of argument) is found from Barcin to Tyrol, also in Vučedol and Kleitos in Kozani, Greece. So my own paternal line could be indigenous in Greece or it could've come from the Balkans at a later period.


Βoth J and G arrived in Greece and Italy from Anatolia and not the opposite.

Yeah, I agree that G2a in Turkey is most likely indigenous Anatolian. Even the clades that are mostly found in Europe today. The L91 mutation happened in Anatolia for example, some sites like SNPtracker that show it appearing in Europe don't have up to date data.

Sorry for the off-topic but the haplogroup G subforum isn't very active lol

BukeKrypEZemer
02-20-2021, 05:29 PM
IMO, PF7563 looks indeed pretty possible as Illyrian clade. Why should it be linked to Greeks just due to presence in the south? If we had a severe number of Greeks in that clade I would understandm but now it looks pretty much the opposite..

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 05:29 PM
I think an origin in Central/Eastern Europe is likely, with the first expansion happening there. It would have spread to NW-Europe and the Western Balkans with parts staying in the region of origin. This first expansion was between 2700 and 2200 BC. Then there was a bottleneck of some 600 years before a second expansion happened in a number of clades, probably between 1600 and 1100BC. Most successful were CTS9320, FGC11450 and L241. Those are the clades that dominate the Balkans today, and they probably moved there at the LBA/EAI transition. As a result I also think Greek colonization was not such a big factor in the spread of V13, I think most V13 arrived in Greece and Italy at the end of the Roman age and early middle ages. So fleeing the Balkans from the succession of invasions towards regions under Roman control (Southern Italy, Greece).
But there's still issues, I think branching would support an older origin for V13 in Greece and Southern Italy, but if so, why don't we see it in ancient DNA? Maybe with more testing we will see more recent connections.

Now the original region of origin doesn't need to be identical to the one where the second expansion started, but it's also not excluded. I think both were probably somewhere around the Carpathian mountains. But the first expansion was quite impressive and you would expect it to be somewhat visible in a way BB makes P312 expansion visible. I think it's very hard today to point out exactly where that was. Too far east and you're in the region of well tested Steppe-cultures that today have much less genetic impact in the Balkans than V13. Too much to the west and you are again faced with explaining why the Western Balkans has so little diversity, which is not the case for other groups like PF7589. To the north you get in the region of BB and CW and it becomes hard to understand why V13 would have been so successful on the Balkans, but L51 not.

So when I use that nice map with all ancient DNA from 3000-1000BC there is a big gap that fits an area in between (A), that would be my guess, but I would like to narrow it down:

43397

Those dates are too old for v13 to form the tribes we call thracians, illrians, dacians, dardani etc. V13 could simply have split into western v13 (illyrian) along with other y dna, east v13 (thracian) along with other y dna etc.

We know v13 isnt originally greek but we want to see it appear in 1000bc - 100ad in balkans so we can attribute it to the correct tribes. Greeks were originally j2a and g2

BukeKrypEZemer
02-20-2021, 05:29 PM
IMO, PF7563 looks indeed pretty possible as Illyrian clade. Why should it be linked to Greeks just due to presence in the south? If we had a severe number of Greeks in that clade I would understand but now it looks pretty much the opposite..

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 05:46 PM
That's no issue, because E-L618/E-V13 is very unlikely to have been in the majority anywhere. The majority of these early groups was always G2, so what do you make out of it? The real importance lies in the fact that Lengyel-Sopot and TCC where in the region and carried E1b1b. We know from the general low level variation, that E1b1b was fairly widespread in Neolithic Europe, it accompanied other patrilineages throughout. Yet the rise of E-V13 can be attributed to special circumstances, to a rise to prominence from within a steppified population and cultural environment. In that sense it was pure chance and you won't prove it by saying that this or that group had more E1b1b in the Neolithic, because it doesn't matter. More than 90 percent of those early Neolithic lineages died, nearly everywhere. They left no significant legacy at all. Even the modern G2a can be, in Europe, in many places attributed to secondary expansions, to similar scenarios as for E-V13. So the percentages in the Neolithic are totally unimportant. The only thing that matters is that the precursor or E-V13 itself was present, and that's probably true from Spain to the Ukraine, from Germany to Sicily. That doesn't help.
The bottleneck really means that it was probably just one clan, one small group of men, possibly even one single man, which "really made it". You can't deduce his origin from percentages in the Neolithic. And again, TCC and Lengyel-Sopot are extremely, really extremely likely to have carried E-V13, even if we don't have found it yet. We can't solve that this way anyway, because just assume the successful clan/individual came from a people which just carried 5 percent E-V13. How are the chances to spot it in the record at all? Its possibile we will never know, but what we can know, what we should be able to recognise, is when the increase in frequency did place and from which direction it was coming from. We probalby have a first sample from Nitra of E-V13, which would be extremely, extremely important, because while Nitra is in my opinion too Western and was very much dominated by R1a, it could point in the right direction. So far we have almost nothing from early Lusatian and Gįva-Holigrady culture respectively. These might be absolutely key.

V13 people didnt live peacefully alongside g2a - they came along and wiped them out but did not do it alone - in neolithic obviously g2a and i2a2 were numerous

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 05:50 PM
Problem with G2a is it went all over south and central Europe with the Early Neolithic Farmers and we don't have many modern samples so it's hard to discern specific migration paths (for the time being). Some of it is from historical Greeks for sure but a lot of Italian G2a is indigenous and not from the Greek colonisation period, like the subclades that are ubiquitous in Sardinia. Even my clade G-L91 which is "European" (don't like these descriptives but for the sake of argument) is found from Barcin to Tyrol, also in Vučedol and Kleitos in Kozani, Greece. So my own paternal line could be indigenous in Greece or it could've come from the Balkans at a later period.



Yeah, I agree that G2a in Turkey is most likely indigenous Anatolian. Even the clades that are mostly found in Europe today. The L91 mutation happened in Anatolia for example, some sites like SNPtracker that show it appearing in Europe don't have up to date data.

Sorry for the off-topic but the haplogroup G subforum isn't very active lol

G is quite unsampled.Not to mention how rare it is..xD but i dont think your ydna is foreign to Greece.

broder
02-20-2021, 06:11 PM
If we discuss only based on modern distribution what matters is diversity. For an example, if you go through R-Z2705 subclades what we see is that it does not have the highest diversity in the Western Balkans. The same is especially valid for E-BY3880.

Where does the Z2705 highest diversity lie according to you?

rafc
02-20-2021, 06:14 PM
V13 people didnt live peacefully alongside g2a - they came along and wiped them out but did not do it alone - in neolithic obviously g2a and i2a2 were numerous

I don't think that is the case. The collapse of the Neolithic in the Balkans happened around 4200BC, long before V13 originated. It's likely that around this period diversity and absolute numbers of Neolithic groups (including V13's ancestors) greatly diminished.

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 06:19 PM
Υou mean minoan/cycladic Greece and even helladic Greece?Yes...pretty much G and J.But IE Greeks i don't think so.G and J are both west asian markers.They arrived in europe with migrations towards the west...

Minoan and helladic greeks were the ancient greeks and looks like they carried j2a and g2. Why do you keep linking ancient greece to IE?

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 06:46 PM
Minoan and helladic greeks were the ancient greeks and looks like they carried j2a and g2. Why do you keep linking ancient greece to IE?


Ancient Greeks Is a term to describe the Greeks of archaic and clasical times. What Minoan, cycladic culture and helladic Greece have to do with Ancient Greeks lol?

G and J arrived In Greece from Anatolia during the Neolithic, Chalcolithic and EBA period. These lineages assilimated into the later Mycenaean civilization and What We call after the IA as Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans etc. To put it simple.The Greek ethnos is a mix of IE steppe people who arrived from somewhere near Ukraine-Moldova(Also responisble For the Greek language, religion, culture) with the native folks(pelasgians,leleges,kares).

Hawk
02-20-2021, 06:52 PM
Where does the Z2705 highest diversity lie according to you?

Nitpicking Y-DNA subclades. I can say R1b-Z2103 is generic Balkan, and Z20705 specific Albanian. There is no Bulgarian/Romanian or whatsoever. If there is some lone wolf no matter his subclade age he is probably some Albanian.

Imagine they cite me Govedarica in front of Hammond and Gimbutas regarding Illyrians. I rest my case there.

Aspar
02-20-2021, 06:55 PM
I don't think that is the case. The collapse of the Neolithic in the Balkans happened around 4200BC, long before V13 originated. It's likely that around this period diversity and absolute numbers of Neolithic groups (including V13's ancestors) greatly diminished.

Exactly.

People talk a lot about the Indo-Europeans however very little is known about the Caucasian related migration during the Late Neolithic and Early Chalcolithic which have increased the Caucasian dna described by Lazaridis et al. 2017. These new migrants might have brought most of J2a lineages in Europe and perhaps J-M241. We see this clearly with the Minoans who although can be modeled as 80% of old Neolithic stock and 20% Caucasian Hunter Gatherer, they were probably in majority J2a by y-Dna lineages and very little G2a which might indicate there was quite a change of y-Dna lineages during the Chalcolithic with the new migrants having the upper hand and the better share of Neolithic women.

Hawk
02-20-2021, 07:07 PM
The only E-M78 groups we have seen so far are Michelsbergers, all others are lone wolfs, E-L618 was in absolute minority among Farmers, something like 1-2%.

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 07:08 PM
The New steppe samples have also maykop Like DNA.Suggests that west Asian migrations took place during LC/EBA-MBA.

43435

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 07:46 PM
Ancient Greeks Is a term to describe the Greeks of archaic and clasical times. What Minoan, cycladic culture and helladic Greece have to do with Ancient Greeks lol?

G and J arrived In Greece from Anatolia during the Neolithic, Chalcolithic and EBA period. These lineages assilimated into the later Mycenaean civilization and What We call after the IA as Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans etc. To put it simple.The Greek ethnos is a mix of IE steppe people who arrived from somewhere near Ukraine-Moldova(Also responisble For the Greek language, religion, culture) with the native folks(pelasgians,leleges,kares).

What do you base this IE greek heritage on? Where is the adna to support ancient greece being IE and them being responsible for the civilization when clearly it contradicts with j2a and g2. J2a and g2 predates any IE in greece and it also greatly outnumbers them today. It was these people who created the ancient greek language, culture etc.

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 07:51 PM
What do you base this IE greek heritage on? Where is the adna to support ancient greece being IE and them being responsible for the civilization when clearly it contradicts with j2a and g2

Maybe the bronze age and classical period samples we have on G25? :suspicious:?

Isn't time to read the lazaridis paper? What do you think?

Bane
02-20-2021, 08:00 PM
Where does the Z2705 highest diversity lie according to you?


I'm not sure. Somewhere between Albania and Shopluk.
Actually I will be specific. In my opinion R-Z2705 could possibly be related to the Paeonian ancestry.



https://i.imgur.com/xp94B35.png

peloponnesian
02-20-2021, 08:00 PM
What do you base this IE greek heritage on? Where is the adna to support ancient greece being IE and them being responsible for the civilization when clearly it contradicts with j2a and g2

The reason ancient Greek samples (which we have very few of) aren't flooded with R1b like we see in other places is because there were already established and populous civilisations in Greece when the proto-Greeks arrived - assuming proto-Greeks were primarily R1b, of course. They were genetically assimilated but their language and aspects of their culture came to dominate in the Mycenean period. You seem to think the only pattern in history is that a new haplogroup shows up and just eats up the rest of the haplogroups like Pacman. Autosomal-wise, Mycenean-period Greeks had minor steppe ancestry, per the Lazaridis paper. Anyway, this is why uniparentals can only tell you so much. Thankfully we have actual sources from the Ancient Greek period so we don't have to rely solely on Y DNA lol

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 08:02 PM
Maybe the bronze age and classical period samples we have on G25? :suspicious:?

Isn't time to read the lazaridis paper? What do you think?

Can i have a link?

"The earliest written evidence is a Linear B clay tablet found in Messenia that dates to between 1450 and 1350 BC, making Greek the world's oldest recorded living language."

It was minoans and mycaneans who created the greek language and culture and both were similar in terms of dna. Whoever came later would have been as an migrant -

"Samples are scarce, and there is only one Y-DNA haplogroup of Mycenaeans, J2a1 (in Galatas Apatheia, ca. 1700-1200"

ShpataEMadhe
02-20-2021, 08:08 PM
The reason ancient Greek samples (which we have very few of) aren't flooded with R1b like we see in other places is because there were already established and populous civilisations in Greece when the proto-Greeks arrived - assuming proto-Greeks were primarily R1b, of course. They were genetically assimilated but their language and aspects of their culture came to dominate in the Mycenean period. You seem to think the only pattern in history is that a new haplogroup shows up and just eats up the rest of the haplogroups like Pacman. Autosomal-wise, Mycenean-period Greeks had minor steppe ancestry, per the Lazaridis paper. Anyway, this is why uniparentals can only tell you so much. Thankfully we have actual sources from the Ancient Greek period so we don't have to rely solely on Y DNA lol

See my answer above, proto greeks were unlikely to be r1b - maybe pf7562 but nothing else. Greeks who carry r1b today is usually recent from neighbouring people and it is smaller than those that carry j2a and g2 which are the true haplotypes found in ancient greece.

It makes no sense for ancient greeks to be r1b when almost all ancient r1b in greece is missing yet j2a and g2 (which predate it) remain