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View Full Version : E-V13 entered Greece with Illyrians and Dorian invasions



Johane Derite
03-25-2019, 02:12 AM
User Aspurg has made a monumental contribution with lots to reflect on.

Essentially, it seems to be the case that we will most likely not find EV13 in Myceneans, or not much at least, as almost all the EV13 in greeks today seems to have either entered in the Late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age. The rest seems to be Arvanite/Vlach.

I will quote him below:

"Most of Greek V13's that are known today belong to younger clades whose ancestor in Mycenean times was located North of Greece.

I have isolated E-V13 clades that as of now occur in Greeks or can be certainly identified based on STR's, and based on diversity of clades and closeness and location of their their matches I added some of my clues about their likely ancestry:

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092/BY14151* an isolated clade without matches found in Kyklades, likely arrived in Greece in EBA, likely/possibly with Cetina people. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092>BY14151* (very likely a parallel clade) One Greek from Argos area seems to possibly cluster with the Serbian Vasojevici clan (7/37), but hard to say without deeper tests how distant he is to them. So he could be either Ancient Greek or Vlach.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>S7461>BY5022>Y150909>Y150909a - Found in Arcadia. Ancient Greek. One Asia Minor sample likely clusters with him, and might have something to do with Myceneans, though with TMRCA 3000 it boomed later. S7461 has generally highest diversity in Thrace/Bulgaria so it ultimately derives from there.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684>Z19851>Z19851a - Found in a Greek from Aetolia, and based on STR's one from Pelopenesus in a study. Also found in Aromanians from Albania and Aromanian from Cogalniceanu Romania who has an identical haplotype. Certain Vlach origin.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684* - Found in two Greeks from Thessaly and Greek Thrace who cluster together. Also closely matching to them on STR's are 4 Basarabi individuals from Romania (Basarabi study). A more distant BY4684* is found around Balkan mountain in Bulgaria. Vlach ancestry for this clade seems certain.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377* - A Greek with a surname suggesting Vlach origin, clusetrs closely (4/37) with a Bulgarian from Central Balkan Mountains so he must be of Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17264 - One of the most common E-V13 clades in Greece. 2 samples at YFull and also a Bulgarian sample also clusters with Greeks (dys439=9, dys448=19). Ancient Greek definitely but paternal CTS9320 has far greater diversity to the North so it likely arrived to Greece from the North in EIA. It is generally frequent in Asia Minor Greeks, Greek Macedonia, and Greek islanders. Found also on Cyprus.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z171 07>Z38456>BY4461>Y97307 Found in a number of Greeks from Greece in various locations: Asia Minor, Peloponnesus (study). Also a few of Turks cluster with Asia Minor Greeks and ultimately Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z169 88>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Croat. Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320* (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-) - One Greek from Greek Thrace, might be Ancient Greek or Thracian. He is not tested to some other newer parallel branches under CTS9320.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784 - Common in Pontic Greeks, yet also have two parallel clades in Poland and Slovakia at TMRCA of 3400, indicating it too arrived from the North in MBA/LBA. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC33621>A10158 - Found in a Greek from Eastern Crete. Clusters with an American. Ancient Greek but parallel clades are found in Northern Albania as well as in Central Bulgaria. TMRCA of 2900 ybp suggests arrival to Greece from the North in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450>Y146086 Found in a Greek from Aetolia and another Greek. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450* (DYS458=14/DYS460=10) Found in a Greek from Euboia and one Greek from Phocaea. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183* - based on specific STR's found in a number of Greeks from Corinthia and Greek Macedonia. They cluster closely with a Macedonian (tested at Y37 and SNP confirmed as Y3183*), Romanian, Hungarian and a Bulgarian. Considering the diversity of Y3183 in Bulgaria they probably have Vlach ancestry, also some Aromanian samples might cluster with them, but Aromanians lack certain important STR's to assigned them to this clade with certainty.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z 16661>S2978 - Found in several Greeks from Messinia, Peloponnesus. Likely Ancient Greek but considering diversity of Z16661 north of Greece it likely arrived to greece in LBA or EIA. Some Eastern and Sardinian samples might fit into Greek colonisation.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>A 7135>A7136 - Found in a Greek from Laconia. Likely Ancient Greek, yet the high diversity of BY5430 (under A7135) in Central-Eastern Balkans clearly suggests the origin from the North (Eastern Balkans) and arrival to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 - Two Greeks are L241+ but without deeper tests. One from Messinia and one from Arcadia (?). Likely Ancient Greeks had their own specific clades of L241. Additionally a significant percentage of Cypriot E-V13 from studies is certainly related to a Cypriot Greek who tested Y37 and who seems almost certainly L241. Based on some STR's they might belong to L241>Z38770 subclade. L241 has plenty of diversity in more Northern areas of the Balkan so it seems Greek L241 arrived to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y16729* - One Greek clusters closely with a Macedonian and a number of Aromanians. Vlach ancestry.


Additionally
E-CTS1273* YF12550 is an ethnic Bulgarian from N.Greece, not a Greek.
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y19508* found in Malta might have something to do with Ancient Greeks.


Generally it seems most of Ancient Greek V13's arrived to Greece in LBA-EIA timeframe."

Johane Derite
03-25-2019, 02:13 AM
Obviously the LBA - EIA relates to the Dorian Invasion period:

https://i.imgur.com/3LLsUNL.jpg

Johane Derite
03-25-2019, 02:40 AM
Possibly outdated, but Coon noted Dinaricism in the "Dorian" zones of Greece:


https://i.imgur.com/t4Rgmrt.jpg

Pribislav
03-25-2019, 11:57 AM
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z16988>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Croat. Vlach ancestry.

Not Croat, Serb from Šumadija region.

Johane Derite
03-31-2019, 06:26 PM
Why haven't these ancient macedonian tumuli been DNA tested? 300 tumuli in Piera, the Makedones' home according to Hesiod, shows that Illyrians & Phrygians ruled there until at least 650 BC. Pre-historic Macedonia archaeologically shows an invasion from "northern people" around 1150BC and little Mycenean influence.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2L5f6BX0AIyIG6.jpg:large

digital_noise
03-31-2019, 09:38 PM
man, im trying to pay attention to the Eupedia thread but like every other goddamned E-V13 thread, some old Albanian/Slav/Serb superiority bullshit rises up and it turns into pages of multiple paragraph responses of people saying the same shit over and over.

Anyways, I too look forward to some reports, particularly the ancient Greece and South Italian, whenever they are released.

Johane Derite
04-08-2019, 08:56 PM
More evidence that the Dorians were originally an Illyrian tribe

https://i.imgur.com/agO6Xqv.png

Johane Derite
04-08-2019, 09:05 PM
More evidence that the Dorians were originally an Illyrian tribe

Also this:

https://i.imgur.com/b2rY9zx.jpg

vettor
04-08-2019, 10:21 PM
User Aspurg has made a monumental contribution with lots to reflect on.

Essentially, it seems to be the case that we will most likely not find EV13 in Myceneans, or not much at least, as almost all the EV13 in greeks today seems to have either entered in the Late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age. The rest seems to be Arvanite/Vlach.

I will quote him below:

"Most of Greek V13's that are known today belong to younger clades whose ancestor in Mycenean times was located North of Greece.

I have isolated E-V13 clades that as of now occur in Greeks or can be certainly identified based on STR's, and based on diversity of clades and closeness and location of their their matches I added some of my clues about their likely ancestry:

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092/BY14151* an isolated clade without matches found in Kyklades, likely arrived in Greece in EBA, likely/possibly with Cetina people. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y37092>BY14151* (very likely a parallel clade) One Greek from Argos area seems to possibly cluster with the Serbian Vasojevici clan (7/37), but hard to say without deeper tests how distant he is to them. So he could be either Ancient Greek or Vlach.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>S7461>BY5022>Y150909>Y150909a - Found in Arcadia. Ancient Greek. One Asia Minor sample likely clusters with him, and might have something to do with Myceneans, though with TMRCA 3000 it boomed later. S7461 has generally highest diversity in Thrace/Bulgaria so it ultimately derives from there.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684>Z19851>Z19851a - Found in a Greek from Aetolia, and based on STR's one from Pelopenesus in a study. Also found in Aromanians from Albania and Aromanian from Cogalniceanu Romania who has an identical haplotype. Certain Vlach origin.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>BY4684* - Found in two Greeks from Thessaly and Greek Thrace who cluster together. Also closely matching to them on STR's are 4 Basarabi individuals from Romania (Basarabi study). A more distant BY4684* is found around Balkan mountain in Bulgaria. Vlach ancestry for this clade seems certain.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377* - A Greek with a surname suggesting Vlach origin, clusetrs closely (4/37) with a Bulgarian from Central Balkan Mountains so he must be of Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z17264 - One of the most common E-V13 clades in Greece. 2 samples at YFull and also a Bulgarian sample also clusters with Greeks (dys439=9, dys448=19). Ancient Greek definitely but paternal CTS9320 has far greater diversity to the North so it likely arrived to Greece from the North in EIA. It is generally frequent in Asia Minor Greeks, Greek Macedonia, and Greek islanders. Found also on Cyprus.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z171 07>Z38456>BY4461>Y97307 Found in a number of Greeks from Greece in various locations: Asia Minor, Peloponnesus (study). Also a few of Turks cluster with Asia Minor Greeks and ultimately Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z169 88>A11837 An ethnic Greek from Southern Albania clusters closely with a Serb from Shop and a Croat. Vlach ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377>CTS9320* (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-) - One Greek from Greek Thrace, might be Ancient Greek or Thracian. He is not tested to some other newer parallel branches under CTS9320.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784 - Common in Pontic Greeks, yet also have two parallel clades in Poland and Slovakia at TMRCA of 3400, indicating it too arrived from the North in MBA/LBA. Ancient Greek.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC33621>A10158 - Found in a Greek from Eastern Crete. Clusters with an American. Ancient Greek but parallel clades are found in Northern Albania as well as in Central Bulgaria. TMRCA of 2900 ybp suggests arrival to Greece from the North in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450>Y146086 Found in a Greek from Aetolia and another Greek. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>FGC11451>FGC11450* (DYS458=14/DYS460=10) Found in a Greek from Euboia and one Greek from Phocaea. They closely cluster with Albanians. Arvanite ancestry.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183* - based on specific STR's found in a number of Greeks from Corinthia and Greek Macedonia. They cluster closely with a Macedonian (tested at Y37 and SNP confirmed as Y3183*), Romanian, Hungarian and a Bulgarian. Considering the diversity of Y3183 in Bulgaria they probably have Vlach ancestry, also some Aromanian samples might cluster with them, but Aromanians lack certain important STR's to assigned them to this clade with certainty.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z 16661>S2978 - Found in several Greeks from Messinia, Peloponnesus. Likely Ancient Greek but considering diversity of Z16661 north of Greece it likely arrived to greece in LBA or EIA. Some Eastern and Sardinian samples might fit into Greek colonisation.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>A 7135>A7136 - Found in a Greek from Laconia. Likely Ancient Greek, yet the high diversity of BY5430 (under A7135) in Central-Eastern Balkans clearly suggests the origin from the North (Eastern Balkans) and arrival to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241 - Two Greeks are L241+ but without deeper tests. One from Messinia and one from Arcadia (?). Likely Ancient Greeks had their own specific clades of L241. Additionally a significant percentage of Cypriot E-V13 from studies is certainly related to a Cypriot Greek who tested Y37 and who seems almost certainly L241. Based on some STR's they might belong to L241>Z38770 subclade. L241 has plenty of diversity in more Northern areas of the Balkan so it seems Greek L241 arrived to Greece in EIA.

E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y16729* - One Greek clusters closely with a Macedonian and a number of Aromanians. Vlach ancestry.


Additionally
E-CTS1273* YF12550 is an ethnic Bulgarian from N.Greece, not a Greek.
E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y19508* found in Malta might have something to do with Ancient Greeks.


Generally it seems most of Ancient Greek V13's arrived to Greece in LBA-EIA timeframe."

Thracians also have E-V13 and there a 4 "thracian races "..
Proper thracian from bulgaria
Getae and Dacian thracians from romania and
Moesian thracians from serbia

Johane Derite
04-09-2019, 07:53 AM
There are also literary sources from ancient greece that connect the illyrians with the dorians.


" The barbarians called Lotus-eaters are the following: Hierastamnai, Boulinoi (Hyllinoi), coterminous with Boulinoi the Hylloi. And these say Hyllos son of Herakles settled them: and they are barbarians. And they occupy a peninsula a little lesser than the Peloponnese. And from peninsula parastonion* is upright: Boulinoi live beside this. And Boulinoi are an Illyric nation. "


The Periplous of Pseudo-Skylax (translated by graham shipley)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_Pseudo-Scylax