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View Full Version : Do L23xL51 clades in SW Asia - do they link closest to the Balkans or Caucasus/NW Ira



alan
12-06-2013, 10:55 PM
I recall comparison of STRs being used to work out that the greater similarity pointed to a clockwise route around the Caspian. Can a similar comparison be made between Anatolia and those clades in the Balkans to its west on the one hand and those clades to the east and north of Anatolia?

Related to this is whether STR comparisons of L23XL51 is indicative of a Balkans origin or an eastern/northern oriin for this clade among Armenians. If, as looks linguistically plausible, that the Armenian speakers came from the Balkans then if it is linked to L23xL51 then they should be closer to Balkans L23xL51 than say north Caucasian, Ukraine, NW Iran (other than Armenians) people of the same clade.

I just am surprised I have not seen this looked at because Anatolia would have to be accessed from either the Balkans, Caucasus or somewhere like Iran. Alternatively if it was born in Anatolia then patterns may imply that.

newtoboard
12-07-2013, 04:06 PM
Humanist looked at this before. I think he found in terms of STR's Armenian R1b was closest to Assyrians as well as Iranian minority groups around the Caspian. But you should ask him to be sure because I could be wrong on that.

R.Rocca
12-07-2013, 07:55 PM
I recall comparison of STRs being used to work out that the greater similarity pointed to a clockwise route around the Caspian. Can a similar comparison be made between Anatolia and those clades in the Balkans to its west on the one hand and those clades to the east and north of Anatolia?

Related to this is whether STR comparisons of L23XL51 is indicative of a Balkans origin or an eastern/northern oriin for this clade among Armenians. If, as looks linguistically plausible, that the Armenian speakers came from the Balkans then if it is linked to L23xL51 then they should be closer to Balkans L23xL51 than say north Caucasian, Ukraine, NW Iran (other than Armenians) people of the same clade.

I just am surprised I have not seen this looked at because Anatolia would have to be accessed from either the Balkans, Caucasus or somewhere like Iran. Alternatively if it was born in Anatolia then patterns may imply that.

I'm not sure that we even need STRs. We know the Armenians and a few Iraqi/Iranian samples are L23 > Z2103/Z2105 > L584 whereas this subclade is missing in the Balkans and in Western Europe.

Humanist
12-07-2013, 08:40 PM
I'm not sure that we even need STRs. We know the Armenians and a few Iraqi/Iranian samples are L23 > Z2103/Z2105 > L584 whereas this subclade is missing in the Balkans and in Western Europe.

What Iraqi samples are you referring to? The ones in the Iraq DNA Project? The Iraqi Arabs that have tested for L584 have been ancestral (Bani Saad, Al Enezi, and Al Araji Al-Husseini Al-Hashemi).

We still do not know what subclades Alawites fall in. The same goes for a good number of Assyrians.

Jean M
12-07-2013, 08:58 PM
We know the Armenians ... are L23 > Z2103/Z2105 > L584 whereas this subclade is missing in the Balkans ....

Not quite. There is at least one in Greece, according to Joe's map: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?112-L277-and-L584&p=6259&viewfull=1#post6259

Humanist
12-07-2013, 09:02 PM
Humanist looked at this before. I think he found in terms of STR's Armenian R1b was closest to Assyrians as well as Iranian minority groups around the Caspian. But you should ask him to be sure because I could be wrong on that.

I know that I have compared them before, but I do not believe Iranian R-L23 haplotypes are particularly close to Assyrian haplotypes. Save for one, I believe, in Khuzestan. But do not quote me on that, as I do not have access to the comparison at the moment.

From Academia. Short haplotypes, and a bit dated, but for what it is worth:

Y chromosome diversity in Kurds and Assyrians living in Armenia (http://www.yhrd.org/files/3rd_y_user_workshop_talk_abstacts.pdf)

Yepiskoposyan et al.


734 ethnic Armenian, 196 Kurd and 106 Assyrian men were sampled in Armenia. DNA was extracted from buccal swab and typed for six STR and 12 Unique Event Polymorphism (UEP) loci mapping to the nonrecombined portion of the human Y chromosome.

....

Overall, Assyrians and Kurds appear to be genetically distinct from the general Armenian population, with Fst values suggesting that Assyrians are the most differentiated group from all Armenian regional populations and from Kurds.

Joe B
12-07-2013, 10:02 PM
Not quite. There is at least one in Greece, according to Joe's map: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?112-L277-and-L584&p=6259&viewfull=1#post6259It is not clear where the L584+ from the Greek project(87265) is really from. He may have been a Greek from Anatolia. Some old forums have him in Georgia.

I'm not sure that we even need STRs. We know the Armenians and a few Iraqi/Iranian samples are L23 > Z2103/Z2105 > L584 whereas this subclade is missing in the Balkans and in Western Europe.
R1b-L584 looks like it is from the Armenian Highlands.
It's interesting that R1b-CTS7822/Z2110 has not been found east or southeast of the Balkans yet. Greece has one CTS7822+ and one CTS7822+, CTS9219+. I think this is how CTS7822 fits. M269>L23>Z2103>CTS7822>CTS9219*

Rathna
12-07-2013, 10:23 PM
I'm not sure that we even need STRs. We know the Armenians and a few Iraqi/Iranian samples are L23 > Z2103/Z2105 > L584 whereas this subclade is missing in the Balkans and in Western Europe.

Richard, let them think what they want. I have written tons of letter about this and I am waiting for my Chromo2 results which will be able to clear many things. Not only L23 from Middle East are derived from R-Z2105*, but L584* presuppose PF7580 (found in an Italian, a Romenian, a Jew (Goldschlager) I suspect introgressed from Europe), all Jewish L23 are L277+, and also Eastern European L23 is above all Z2110+, which presupposes the two SNPs you know intermediate between Z2105 and Z2110. Other subclades of Z2105 are tested Eastward of Italy.
The previous R1b1* is in the East (India and probably Caucasus) L388/L389-.
Richard, let them think what they want.

Humanist
12-08-2013, 07:58 PM
R1b-L584 looks like it is from the Armenian Highlands.

We need to find out what form of R-L23 the Iranian minorities are. Same goes for other groups. What is necessary is a study devoted to R-L23 in Near Eastern and West Asian groups, including the many non-Arab peoples of the region. No such study has ever been undertaken.


Richard, let them think what they want.

Thank you.

Joe B
12-08-2013, 11:30 PM
We need to find out what form of R-L23 the Iranian minorities are. Same goes for other groups. What is necessary is a study devoted to R-L23 in Near Eastern and West Asian groups, including the many non-Arab peoples of the region. No such study has ever been undertaken.


In the FTDNA Armenian, Assyrian, Aramaic and other ethnic projects from the region, are those kits residents of the region or from ethnic groups in the United States or elsewhere? The next best thing may be testing groups that had a relatively recent diaspora and still know their ancestory.

Humanist
12-08-2013, 11:51 PM
In the FTDNA Armenian, Assyrian, Aramaic and other ethnic projects from the region, are those kits residents of the region or from ethnic groups in the United States or elsewhere? The next best thing may be testing groups that had a relatively recent diaspora and still know their ancestory.

I cannot speak for the Armenian project, but in the Assyrian project most of the members of the project are ethnic Assyrians living in the United States and other countries outside of the Middle East. In the R1b category, in the Assyrian Project, however, the men from Lebanon are not ethnic Assyrians. I maintain a separate sheet, containing all haplotypes of ethnic Assyrian R1b men, including both FTDNA and other data (e.g. SMGF) (please see below). The Aramaic Project contains data for people that currently speak a dialect of Aramaic as their vernacular (i.e. Assyrians), or may have at one time spoken an Aramaic dialect (e.g. Jews).


Twelve-marker haplotypes for all R-M269 Assyrians that I am aware of. Almost all of them are from the "Nestorian" church. Most participants in the project, as previously mentioned, are from the "Nestorian" church. The smallest of the three churches.


A 12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28
B 12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28
C 12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27
D 12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
E 12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
F 12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30
G 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29
H 12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26 L584
I 12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
J 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
L 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584

alan
12-09-2013, 12:04 AM
The key question then (which is what I was perhaps clumsily trying to ask) is what about Anatolians? Are their L23xL51 more like Balkans or others? I am trying to establish what direction it entered Anatolia from, assuming it was not native (which seems unlikely to me for a number of reasons I have posted before).




I'm not sure that we even need STRs. We know the Armenians and a few Iraqi/Iranian samples are L23 > Z2103/Z2105 > L584 whereas this subclade is missing in the Balkans and in Western Europe.

alan
12-09-2013, 12:32 AM
Ideally we need L23xL51 more finely resolved in the following areas/peoples where it is either significant or important due to a natural barrier. If it was split in the following groups

1. The Balkans
2. Anatolia
3. Armenians
4. Iranians
4. North Caucasus/Russia/Ukraine
5. Assyrians

These are areas where significant natural barriers lie between some of them which ought to may indicating potential routes easier. Their relative SNP/STR relationships to each other could clarify roots taken and might even suggest origin.


There are only a few possible routes
1. Steppe into Balkans/Balkans into steppe
2. Balkans into Anatolia/Anatolia into Balkans
3. steppe/north Caucasus into Iran, south Caucasus and southwards into the middle east or the reverse
4. Middle east into Anatolia or the reverse


The challenge is whether both were taken or not, which directions etc. Direction may be tricky to prove but the routes taken may be implied by which groups link to each other. Worst scenario is its a P312 situation where there are lots of subclades but the centre where the ancestor of all the subclades cannot be placed with confidence.

My hunch is that the Balkan-Steppe/steppe Balkan and the Caucasus type route were both used. What I wasnt to know is how Anatolia fits as its another possible route one direction or the other. Anatolia is a problem though as the generic ethnic Turkish population of Turkey is composed of many prehistoric layers in addition to the more obvious minorities who can still be clearly distinguished. Its really the generic ethnic Turkish majority that I am interested in because I presume they contain many of the prehistoric local Anatolian strands.

Humanist
12-09-2013, 03:11 AM
Ideally we need L23xL51 more finely resolved in the following areas/peoples where it is either significant or important due to a natural barrier. If it was split in the following groups

1. The Balkans
2. Anatolia
3. Armenians
4. Iranians
4. North Caucasus/Russia/Ukraine
5. Assyrians

Arguably, one of most important groups has been omitted. Unless you are including them among the peoples of "Anatolia."* I am speaking of the N Syrian Alawites. Another group are the Druze. Two very important groups, in my opinion, if we are to understand R-L23. At least, as much as we can, as we await the arrival (fingers crossed) of aDNA from the region.

*
Wikipedia


A quasi-official name used [for the Alawites] during the 1930s by Turkish authorities was Eti Türkleri ("Hittite Turks"), to conceal their Arabic origins. Although this term is obsolete, it is still used by some older people as a euphemism.

alan
12-09-2013, 09:57 PM
The reason I particularly cited Anatolia is its a link region that basically is one of only two options of a route that links SW Asia and the Balkans in a direct way, the only other likely Europe-SW Asia link route being through the Caucasus. We know that they ended up in both the Balkans and SW Asia so having only two likely linking routes should make understanding how L23xL51 moved about theoretically more achievable than in areas with less natural barriers.

newtoboard
01-02-2014, 02:27 PM
A bit OT but is there L51 among Armenians and if so what does it say about their origins?

newtoboard
01-02-2014, 02:30 PM
Seems L51 is found in West Asia at trace frequencies.

rms2
01-02-2014, 02:42 PM
A bit OT but is there L51 among Armenians and if so what does it say about their origins?

There is one L11xP312,U106 in the Armenian Y-DNA Project (Zohrab, kit N9165): http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?vgroup=ArmeniaDNAProject&section=ycolorized.

Otherwise, L51+ Armenians seem pretty scarce.

newtoboard
01-02-2014, 02:45 PM
I guess we can't narrow down the location of Armenians then.

newtoboard
01-02-2014, 02:51 PM
Confusing that this was said about L51 since there is almost no L51 in Asia and nothing which would suggest an Anatolian origin for L51 IMO.


R1b-L51* is an intermediary clade between the Eastern L23* and the Western L11+ (P310+) subgroups of R1b. It is found at extremely low frequencies from Iran to England, with relatively more occurrence in Central Europe. It is not yet clear if it arose in Europe or in Anatolia. People with the STRs of DYS426=13 and DYS393=13 have a good chance of longing here, but having such values does not mean you are surely L51* so deep SNP testing is always advisable. See “Y Classic Chart” #2.2-3.3 subgroups and the “ht35new” subclades project.


http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=results

Seems likely that RBI entered Europe as L23 or upstream of that.

rms2
01-02-2014, 02:53 PM
I don't know. Isn't the presence of one single L11+ Armenian (and that one P312-, U106-) an example of the exception proving the rule? (That's in response to post #19 above.)

newtoboard
01-02-2014, 02:54 PM
Seems likely that R1b entered Europe as L23 or upstream of that.

newtoboard
01-02-2014, 02:56 PM
I don't know. Isn't the presence of one single L11+ Armenian (and that one P312-, U106-) an example of the exception proving the rule? (That's in response to post #19 above.)

I guess. The fact that these lineages are so rare make it hard to rule out a recent European origin ( Vikings and admixture from soviet times among others).

alan
01-02-2014, 04:34 PM
It may well have entered after L23 came into existence but I think it is more complex than that and a number of streams were involved including the L23xL51 and M269* and L51* clades and may have entered in a different order than the SNP sequence would imply. I think Michal's dating for clades rather than SNPs is a bit of an eye opener on this as it shows that it is possible that all three of those SNPs might have come into existence before any of them formed into clades that survive today. That suggests to me that the incubation/pre-expansion phase of R1b on the P297 line may have been lengthy and all three of those clades may have existed in a pre-expansion state together somewhere for a long period.




Seems likely that R1b entered Europe as L23 or upstream of that.

alan
01-02-2014, 04:50 PM
To elaborate Michal's calculations suggest to me three stages. I tend to believe that the variant of Michal's method that produces the older date range is closest to reality if the low end of his range is considered (BOLDED).

1. A c. 1000 year period of existence of the M269 and L23 SNPs but non-expansion/bare survival c. 5-6000BC

8.6 (7.3-11.3) R1b-M269
8.3 (7.1-10.9) R1b-L23

2. A period of near-simultaneous expansion of three parallel clades at the time of the collapse of old Europe c. 4500-4000BC

7.6 (6.5-10.0) R1b-L51
7.4 (6.3-9.7) R1b-Z2105
7.2 (6.1-9.5) R1b-M269(xL23)

3. A period of secondary takeoff in west-central and western Europe c. 3600-3200BC

6.6 (5.6-8.6) R1b-L11
6.2 (5.3-8.2) R1b-P312
6.1 (5.2-8.0) R1b-U152

Silesian
01-02-2014, 04:59 PM
I guess. The fact that these lineages are so rare make it hard to rule out a recent European origin ( Vikings and admixture from soviet times among others).

With more testing maybe we will find out about possible R1b in Armenians, Vikings and soviets. Just look how careful the tests are done in the following video. Here for example is the video of King Tut, the family that started sun god monotheistic trend in Egypt 3000 years ago.

From 2:09 to 2:50 the actual footage of the samples taken around three years ago. Perhaps one day they will release the results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Jjb94G5ls