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haleaton
12-08-2013, 01:30 AM
don't know if more than two U152+ folks opted to try out Britains Chromo2, but I thought I would start a U152 specific thread.

My raw Chromo2 results were provided to me "unofficially" with my results pending further sequencing by BritainsDNA. I appreciate the speed by which they got my results having already had a EA sample which was for just one SNP four years ago.

Like GENO 2.O Chip results there are issues with SNP reliability which all needs to be sorted out over time. Some L21 folks, which is their bread and butter clade, are having updated results and this will likely continue.

First I compared my results for 24287 SNPs using the list provided of alternative names with my Full Genomes data and found generally good agreement, though the interesting S SNPs wait to be defined. Some defined SNPs are not part of the FGC standard reports and I am not yet able to mine the bam files.

BritainsDNA also provided results added at the bottom for me being S28/U152+ and S139/L2+ which I presume was from additional sequencing as the chip does not have a working site for these SNPs.

I then looked at all Chromo2 SNPs which was reported positive for and compared them with Bolgeris (L20+) who posted his postive results. I am L2* just upstream and under U152+, so I ignored when we were both positive though there a likely simulataneous errors.

I then looked at other preliminary data posted in various places for L21+ and U106+ persons, albeit very preliminary. I also looked for where SNPs had questions based on defintion. When we were postive with U152- folks or there was a question I ignored that data.'

This left me with two positive SNPS CTS1476+ & S8709+. However CTS1476+ was a nocall in FGC with a heterosygosity rating of 0.15625.

Both myself (L2*) and Bolgeris (L20+) share S8709+, though my guess it may end up on the uncertain pile. Bolgeris was also S3856+, but I am not.

I will review this pending further updates of the raw data. Again this is all preliminary data from BritainsDNA.

It also shows the real value now in having just the summary data set from Full Genomes Corporation used in Excell with VLOOKUP.

haleaton
12-08-2013, 08:43 AM
For comparison of other preliminary raw data sets here are my positive Chromo2 SNPs, however final version is still in works "Results need further sequencing - we will contact you when ready." Similar to initial GENO 2.0 results many SNPs, but particularly for the undefined S SNPs, are also positive for folks who are clearly U152-. Many of these SNPs are under review. U152+ & L2+ were sequenced separately from the current chip.

Eaton (FTDNA Kit# 125963) R-L2*:

CTS10008+, CTS10149+, CTS11150+, CTS11226+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11948+, CTS11991+, CTS12057+, CTS12633+, CTS12773+, CTS1476+, CTS1738+, CTS2134+, CTS2254+, CTS2480+, CTS2569+, CTS2664+, CTS3229+, CTS3315+, CTS3316+, CTS3358+, CTS3654+, CTS3818+, CTS3844+, CTS4293+, CTS4437+, CTS4740+, CTS4944+, CTS5139(+), CTS5248+, CTS543+, CTS6058+, CTS6327+, CTS6376+, CTS6383+, CTS6445+, CTS7206+, CTS7301+, CTS7604+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7941+, CTS8627+, CTS8728+, CTS9200+, CTS9556+, CTS9760+, F1794+, L1002+, L1013+, L1053+, L1084+, L1098+, L1105+, L1118+, L1123+, L1129+, L1130+, L1137+, L1143+, L1145+, L1150+, L1179+, L1220+, L132+, L1345+, L1350+, L1352+, L265+, L278+, L320+, L352+, L438+, L440+, L468+, L470+, L479+, L498+, L508+, L543+, L58+, L604+, L741+, L752+, L757+, L768+, L773+, L822+, L82+, L875+, L882+, L969+, M213+, M235+, M294+, M299+, M415+, M42+, M523+, M526+, M74+, P128+, P131+, P135+, P139+, P140+, P141+, P142+, P143+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P163+, P224+, P225+, P226+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P236+, P239+, P242+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P282+, P284+, P285+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, PAGE081+, PAGE083+, PF1030+, PF1067+, PF1081+, PF1252+, PF1253+, PF1416+, PF1695+, PF1911+, PF256+, PF2590+, PF2592+, PF2615+, PF2617+, PF2619+, PF2621+, PF2622+, PF2624+, PF2626+, PF2629+, PF2651+, PF2653+, PF2655+, PF2658+, PF2660+, PF2677+, PF2679+, PF2683+, PF2684+, PF2685+, PF2688+, PF2690+, PF2700+, PF2702+, PF2704+, PF2709+, PF2716+, PF2718+, PF2722+, PF2734+, PF2736+, PF2737+, PF2739+, PF2742+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2760+, PF2762+, PF2775+, PF3495+, PF3500+, PF5459+, PF5461+, PF5480+, PF5495+, PF5857+, PF5861+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5870+, PF5872+, PF5873+, PF5885+, PF5887+, PF5893+, PF5898+, PF5908+ PF5912+, PF5914+, PF5917+, PF5918+, PF5923+, PF5927+, PF5936+, PF5940+, PF5941+, PF5945+, PF5949+, PF5953+, PF5957+, PF5958+, PF5964+, PF5966+, PF5977+, PF5980+, PF5981+, PF5982+, PF6016+, PF6040+, PF6047+, PF6055+, PF6056+, PF6063+, PF6065+, PF6079+, PF6082+, PF6114+, PF6115+, PF6116+, PF6129+, PF6136+, PF6143+, PF6145+, PF6242+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6252+, PF6258+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6267+, PF6269+, PF626+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6399+, PF6409+, PF6410+, PF6419+, PF6429+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6435+, PF643+, PF6443+, PF6451+, PF6463+, PF6467+, PF6469+, PF6471+, PF6475+, PF6481+, PF6484+, PF6487+, PF6495+, PF6497+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6524+, PF6528+, PF653+, PF6541+, PF679+, PF733+, PF744+, PF825+, PF834+, PF869+, PF948+, S10738+, S11330+, S1159+, S11638+, S116+, S12547(+), S128+, S138+, S1572+, S16059+, S163(+), S19739+, S1984(+), S19862(+) S1+, S2003+, S2017+, S20246+, S20315+, S26361+, S26903+, S26911+, S27544+, S27668+, S27730+, S349+, S3509+, S351+, S3848+, S3+, S4888+, S4+, S5025+, S6378+, S8235+, S8587+, S8620+, S8626+, S8628+, S8634+, S8648+, S8670+, S8705+, S8706+, S8709+, S8714+, S8726+, S8751+, S9040+, S9041+, S9158+, S9189+, S932+, S959+, SRY10831(+), V102+, V104+, V126+, V168+, V186+, V187+, V221+, V226+, V231+, V241+, V29+, V41+, V52+, V9+, YSC0167+, YSC0186+, YSC0203+, YSC0227+, YSC1297+, Z1244+, Z2069+, S139+, S28+

Solothurn
12-08-2013, 10:34 AM
Claxon (PF4363+) is awaiting his Chromo2 results. Maybe good for comparison?

Claxon
12-08-2013, 12:15 PM
Claxon (PF4363+) is awaiting his Chromo2 results. Maybe good for comparison?

Hi folks
Yes, I am awaiting results. They also did NOT have my prior results ( allele frequency etc) from about day one at EthnoAncestry, but DID have my saliva.

Rather than any SNP number, As an Englishman, I am more interested in what they come up with regarding
a) Area or county of origin in Britain
b) percent of "Kingdom" in Britain reflected in my DNA, such as Welsh, Cornish, Orcadian, Scots, Irish, English ( Anglo Saxon) etc,
They also said that I would be the first PF4363 in their files ( IF that is correct and the final SNP in my DNA), they are not certain of any accuracy in some things,,, so, it looks like I may be right in that the geographical origin may only be markers on a map where other u152/s28 are located.

As the Kipling/ Clarkson families seem to be one family, perhaps
pre surname, the origin would be Yorkshire. (PF4363) I have said to BritainsDNA, that I think ( per other input from our knowledgable posters) that PF4363 is a Kipling/ Clarkson clan marker, MAY be La Tene Briton, and MAY be a marker for the Parisii / Brigantes tribe. Of course, they have announced in the past that s-28 is PROBABLY, in SOME cases, a marker for Roman Legionairies.
I hope this can be narrowed down, hence my participation with Britains DNA/ research

Rich

R.Rocca
12-08-2013, 01:08 PM
don't know if more than two U152+ folks opted to try out Britains Chromo2, but I thought I would start a U152 specific thread.

My raw Chromo2 results were provided to me "unofficially" with my results pending further sequencing by BritainsDNA. I appreciate the speed by which they got my results having already had a EA sample which was for just one SNP four years ago.

Like GENO 2.O Chip results there are issues with SNP reliability which all needs to be sorted out over time. Some L21 folks, which is their bread and butter clade, are having updated results and this will likely continue.

First I compared my results for 24287 SNPs using the list provided of alternative names with my Full Genomes data and found generally good agreement, though the interesting S SNPs wait to be defined. Some defined SNPs are not part of the FGC standard reports and I am not yet able to mine the bam files.

BritainsDNA also provided results added at the bottom for me being S28/U152+ and S139/L2+ which I presume was from additional sequencing as the chip does not have a working site for these SNPs.

I then looked at all Chromo2 SNPs which was reported positive for and compared them with Bolgeris (L20+) who posted his postive results. I am L2* just upstream and under U152+, so I ignored when we were both positive though there a likely simulataneous errors.

I then looked at other preliminary data posted in various places for L21+ and U106+ persons, albeit very preliminary. I also looked for where SNPs had questions based on defintion. When we were postive with U152- folks or there was a question I ignored that data.'

This left me with two positive SNPS CTS1476+ & S8709+. However CTS1476+ was a nocall in FGC with a heterosygosity rating of 0.15625.

Both myself (L2*) and Bolgeris (L20+) share S8709+, though my guess it may end up on the uncertain pile. Bolgeris was also S3856+, but I am not.

I will review this pending further updates of the raw data. Again this is all preliminary data from BritainsDNA.

It also shows the real value now in having just the summary data set from Full Genomes Corporation used in Excell with VLOOKUP.

Hal, I think it is a long shot, but it could be that S8709 is below L2 but above Z367, which would mean it would have been no-calls in all of the 1000 Genome datasets. It is impossible to know until BritainsDNA tells you the position.

haleaton
12-08-2013, 11:29 PM
Jacques BEAUGRAND R-U152 > L2 > Z49 > Z142 > Z150 > (familial L553+) has published his Chromo2 data over in Molgen. He is S8709+ also.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=121&p=18983#p18983

R.Rocca
12-09-2013, 01:37 AM
Jacques BEAUGRAND R-U152 > L2 > Z49 > Z142 > Z150 > (familial L553+) has published his Chromo2 data over in Molgen. He is S8709+ also.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=121&p=18983#p18983

Unfortunately it looks like it will not be of use to us...it has been found in L21 and U106 samples as well.

haleaton
12-09-2013, 01:12 PM
Thanks! I thinks also even if these uncertain S SNPs were accurate for U152+ and wrong for the others it would be highly unlikely they would not appear in my Full Genomes results if we knew the definitions, though a few might be missed.

haleaton
12-16-2013, 06:01 PM
1066Received "final" Chromo2 results which includes a look at the full BritainsDNA tree as of today. Some brief discussions of U152 and European and UK distribution maps. I image copied and pasted the portion of my tree relevant to U152 though it does show the other branches and what they they test for in tree format. I hand edited in the Z SNP and L SNP definitions equivalent to the S ones used.

Though like any company they had problems such as getting L2 and U152 to work on the chip and had to back fill by additional testing, what I got was as accurate (R-L2*) with negative tests for the two main branches below L2. I think overall, for me, it is a better roll-out than GENO 2.0 was.

MitchellSince1893
12-17-2013, 02:03 AM
Would you be willing to post the S28 distribution maps? I saw on another forum where someone had posted their S145/L21 maps from BritainsDNA and am curious about how S28/U152 would look.

haleaton
12-17-2013, 05:53 AM
Would you be willing to post the S28 distribution maps? I saw on another forum where someone had posted their S145/L21 maps from BritainsDNA and am curious about how S28/U152 would look.

Just the S28/U152 for UK regions. I won't post the rest of their stuff. Not that useful without sample size and collection details.

Hopefully they will update this over time.

1071

R.Rocca
12-17-2013, 02:53 PM
1066Received "final" Chromo2 results which includes a look at the full BritainsDNA tree as of today. Some brief discussions of U152 and European and UK distribution maps. I image copied and pasted the portion of my tree relevant to U152 though it does show the other branches and what they they test for in tree format. I hand edited in the Z SNP and L SNP definitions equivalent to the S ones used.

Though like any company they had problems such as getting L2 and U152 to work on the chip and had to back fill by additional testing, what I got was as accurate (R-L2*) with negative tests for the two main branches below L2. I think overall, for me, it is a better roll-out than GENO 2.0 was.

Thanks Hal. As an FYI, please note that ISOGG also updates their SNP page with "S" named SNPs and shows the cross-references to other names:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html

Claxon
12-19-2013, 03:04 PM
I see that Yorkshire is highest s-28, at 8 %. This could go up soon. six Kipling families originate here ( who may or may not test with BDNA)....and mine may show as Essex, which is my paper genealogy.... but my link to the Kiplings is more recent than my earliest known, which really puts me in Yorkshire. I mentioned this to BDNA, which they may or may not utilize.

R.Rocca
12-20-2013, 03:53 PM
I see that Yorkshire is highest s-28, at 8 %. This could go up soon. six Kipling families originate here ( who may or may not test with BDNA)....and mine may show as Essex, which is my paper genealogy.... but my link to the Kiplings is more recent than my earliest known, which really puts me in Yorkshire. I mentioned this to BDNA, which they may or may not utilize.

I don't know for sure, but I think the frequencies are probably based on the 3,000+ samples Jim Wilson has collected over the years and not on BritainsDNA commercial customers.

MitchellSince1893
12-24-2013, 06:50 PM
Double post.

MitchellSince1893
12-24-2013, 06:52 PM
...Not that useful without sample size and collection details.

Hopefully they will update this over time.

1071

I agree. One would think the East and Southeast regions would have the highest percentages based on other results/maps. In these results Kent usually has one of the highest concentrations of U152.

I know it's autosomal DNA, but in the POBI study, "Belgium" was highest in Linconshire area. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1280-People-of-the-British-Isles-project-photos-and-maps-from-exhibition-2012&p=12763#post12763

Also, I've been doing some amateur research in English history during the 5th to 7th centuries AD. From historical sources one would expect a higher concentration of U152 in the Catuvellani tribal area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_the_Territory_of_the_Catuvellauni.svg. It appears this area might also have been in the same general location as the later Kingdom of Calchfynedd.



Though the exact area described is not known for sure, it was certainly south of Powys and tradition ascribes it the towns of Northampton and Dunstable. It may have been the precursor of Saxon Chilternset. Archaeological evidence indicates the British held out here well into the 7th century.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/history/48385-early-british-kingdoms.html

Also this same area is noted for it relative lack of Anglo-Saxon graves. I.e the island of orange in the purple sea of Saxons:
1089

Anglecynn
12-24-2013, 07:04 PM
Just the S28/U152 for UK regions. I won't post the rest of their stuff. Not that useful without sample size and collection details.

Hopefully they will update this over time.

1071

Hmm interesting, i was under the impression that it was highest on the south-coast and lower in most other places, but this sheds new light.

Bolgeris
12-25-2013, 10:44 PM
Why not.. to think "Danelaw"?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw
For some U152+ clades?
As in Italy the Lombards or Longobards.. ?!

Anglecynn
12-25-2013, 11:24 PM
Why not.. to think "Danelaw"?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw
For some U152+ clades?
As in Italy the Lombards or Longobards.. ?!

Seems unlikely, unless parts of Denmark had higher U152 than they do today, and had a massive impact. I'd think it's more probably the influence of some continental Celtic tribes in parts of Britain, either that just a bit of variation. Perhaps it's to do with the Parisii and Parisi in France and Yorkshire respectively, bit speculative.

MitchellSince1893
01-19-2014, 10:33 PM
Can some who has done the Chromo 2 test tell me whether they have a feature that tells you your closest y-dna matches like FTDNA does?

If they do is there any indication how large the y-dna database is?

Because I have no close matches at 37, 67, or 111 markers at the US biased FTDNA, I'm beginning to think few of my paternal ancestors came to the new world.


Thanks.

Claxon
01-21-2014, 01:53 PM
Can some who has done the Chromo 2 test tell me whether they have a feature that tells you your closest y-dna matches like FTDNA does?

If they do is there any indication how large the y-dna database is?

Because I have no close matches at 37, 67, or 111 markers at the US biased FTDNA, I'm beginning to think few of my paternal ancestors came to the new world.


Thanks.
No, I received nothing like that at all.
However, even though Brit DNA has said publicly that" most s=28 are descended from Roman Legionairies, although many also arrived earlier", they say that my DNA most likely came in with the Anglo Saxon invasions. Also, s-28 is referred to as "Alpine" not Alpine Celt. I tend to think this is a good departure, as I think Celtic is mainly a cultural label, like Viking or Cowboy, rather than race/ DNA.
As Nat Geno has put me closest at Germanic, this makes sense. I also see that they say s-28 is mainly Bavarian/ Swiss/ Italic alps, rather than inferring an Italic origin.

In light of their Roman Legionary input, I found this interesting.

Also, in the autosomal breakdown, it is very much like Ged Com, where one has a choice of selecting "world" European" "African" etc.... in European breakdown, I am 10% Finland, 12% Baltic etc. seems very good.

I also think that my autosomal far north Europe lends to a Jutish/ Jutland/ Danish influence.... however, the danger in thinking this, is that my mother is hap V, and may very well have some Saami...this may be what is showing up here.
Rich

MitchellSince1893
01-21-2014, 02:36 PM
So if I understand correctly, you have no access to, or indication of y-dna matches as a customer of BritainsDNA?

rms2
01-21-2014, 02:45 PM
So if I understand correctly, you have no access to, or indication of y-dna matches as a customer of BritainsDNA?

BritainsDNA does not test STRs, so, no, you don't get any STR matches through them. They only test y-dna SNPs.

Claxon
01-22-2014, 02:03 AM
So if I understand correctly, you have no access to, or indication of y-dna matches as a customer of BritainsDNA?
That's right. I was a bit surprised, as my original order with Ethnoancestry, did just that... at least giving a list of markers and frequencies.

Also, regarding my prior post, I find it unusual that Brit DNA has announced that they think s-28 is mainly a Legionary marker, but could have arrived in Britain EARLIER in some cases. .... and also realizing that by their own statement, that s28 is an ALPINE marker... why do they say my ancestors most likely came in with the Anglo Saxon invasion ?

The Alps are on the border of Italy to the south, but the Angles, Saxons, Frisians and Jutes, are closer to Denmark .

I would think that if s28 is alpine, then we are speaking a "most likely" event of Legionary or earlier, such as almost proven by the presence of the Amesbury Archer.
My Geno 2.0 puts me closest to Germany, but did BritDNA take a similar course, and take this into account ? My autosomal at BritDNA shows @ 20% Baltic, so a Jutish turn is evident, but I would be surprised if they took that much time to review things.....

So, on the one hand, I question the Anglo Saxon origin by reason of my s28, but Apparently this is a good guestimate.
Rich

rms2
01-22-2014, 02:59 AM
Sorry to butt in, but my own opinion is that most of the U152 in Britain came with the Belgae in the 1st century BC and then with the Romans. I could be wrong, but I don't think it goes back to the Bronze Age in the Isles; it is too infrequent there and not as widespread as one would expect of a haplogroup that arrived that early.

Some U152 could have come with the Anglo-Saxons. Those tribes were confederacies of older tribal units and no doubt included some Germanized Celts.

MitchellSince1893
01-22-2014, 06:31 AM
That's right. I was a bit surprised, as my original order with Ethnoancestry, did just that... at least giving a list of markers and frequencies.

Also, regarding my prior post, I find it unusual that Brit DNA has announced that they think s-28 is mainly a Legionary marker, but could have arrived in Britain EARLIER in some cases. .... and also realizing that by their own statement, that s28 is an ALPINE marker... why do they say my ancestors most likely came in with the Anglo Saxon invasion ?

The Alps are on the border of Italy to the south, but the Angles, Saxons, Frisians and Jutes, are closer to Denmark .

I would think that if s28 is alpine, then we are speaking a "most likely" event of Legionary or earlier, such as almost proven by the presence of the Amesbury Archer.
My Geno 2.0 puts me closest to Germany, but did BritDNA take a similar course, and take this into account ? My autosomal at BritDNA shows @ 20% Baltic, so a Jutish turn is evident, but I would be surprised if they took that much time to review things.....

So, on the one hand, I question the Anglo Saxon origin by reason of my s28, but Apparently this is a good guestimate.
Rich

Is it possible they are giving you both your y-dna line and your autosomal results?

I say this because, like you, I'm a U152/S28 guy paternally, but autosomally I'm quite Anglo-Saxon. My autosomal centeroid, depending on the analysis tool, comes out in the old Anglo-Saxon stomping grounds i.e. Northern Germany/Lower Saxony, Denmark/Jutland or the North Sea.

Claxon
01-22-2014, 02:56 PM
Rms and Mitchell.... thanks for the input. Apparently we are in agreement...probably anglo saxon. Mitchell... just looked at your byline re NPE in Fulham. We lived in Fulham also in 1893-1930. I am VERY closely linked to the Kiplings, who also lived in Fulham. We had an NPE at about this time, maybe a bit earlier.... but now it is starting to look like the Kiplings may be Clarksons, or vice versa. I say this because now we have a Clarkson match that is closer to my 6 Kipling families than to myself.

I am of the thought that this may have occurred not only in earlier times, such as us being one pre surname family, but also through the Pre Raphaelites in Fulham. Lots of bed jumping going on. My grandmother was Elsie Parker, and an Elsie Parker was Rudyards secretary at Batemans, not far from Tunbridge Wells, where we also lived. She also worked at the Fulham " The Grange" in WW1 as a nurse when it was used as a hospital.

Our autosomal is apparently very similar.
Rich

MitchellSince1893
01-22-2014, 03:59 PM
My dad's autosomal is a more Irish than mine on 23andme, Eurogenes K13, and Eurogenes V2 K15, yet through genealogical research I show no reason why this should be the case.

However there is that 12.5% of his ancestry that is unaccounted for because of the NPE in 1893 (hence the username MitchellSince1893).

On FTDNA, my dad has autosomal matches that are 50% Irish and 50% Mexican, and 50% Irish and 50% Slovak. He has no known ancestry from Mexico, Spain, or Slovkia, so I left to conclude this Irish is coming from that unknown 12.5%.

I recently made contact with a man on 23andme who matches my dad autosomally and is U152+L2+. His paternal line is from Galway, Ireland.

Maybe my mystery great great grandfather was Irish U152.

If this turns out to be the case I'll have to adjust my pie-chart avatar from 40% to 34% English and from 2% to 8% Irish :)

Claxon
01-22-2014, 09:17 PM
Mitchell
Great stuff ... I also have more Irish in me than I would have thought. Apparently, when it comes to physical affection, race, religion and National origin, take a back seat :-)

Elly
03-25-2014, 11:57 PM
Hal, We're cousins on 23andme. I'm R-L2* and, like you, am T1a1 mtDNA. Could you email me Britainsdna's map for T1a1 mtDNA? Holyfield413atyahoodotca I await my Chromo 2 results.

haleaton
03-26-2014, 12:32 AM
Hal, We're cousins on 23andme. I'm R-L2* and, like you, am T1a1 mtDNA. Could you email me Britainsdna's map for T1a1 mtDNA? Holyfield413atyahoodotca I await my Chromo 2 results.

Done, they provide a T distribution regional map.

If you remember could only trace my maternal mtDNA to a Barbara, possible named Thompson, in Whitehaven, Cumbria born around 1800. Her daughter, Jane Glover married Thomas Blenkinsopp and migrated to Northumbria and married Thomas Riddle who was from very near the Scottish border in Corsenside.

Claxon
03-27-2014, 01:06 PM
Is it possible they are giving you both your y-dna line and your autosomal results?

I say this because, like you, I'm a U152/S28 guy paternally, but autosomally I'm quite Anglo-Saxon. My autosomal centeroid, depending on the analysis tool, comes out in the old Anglo-Saxon stomping grounds i.e. Northern Germany/Lower Saxony, Denmark/Jutland or the North Sea.

I e mailed Bdna, and they said autosomal plays no part in their statements on probable origin.

But, it sure make sense to me.....I think though that autosomal is only valid for @ 5 generations ?. Makes no sense to me at all, knowing my past 5 generations. BDNA did say this. ( 5 gen)

But then, what is the 5 gen makeup of my oldest 5 gen ancestor ? If that person, who is JUST beyond my paper trail, was say 50% Finn, I would think it would show up.

Personally, I think it IS valid to look at autosomal origins, to decide where our particular ancestors traveled, regardless of SNP...... otherwise, a statement should be made by experts that autosomal is useless for this purpose.

I would also say that I can base my ideas on no authority... but we do have GEDMATCH and other search engines, so their must be something in it.

Phil
03-27-2014, 08:24 PM
Hi - I'm a new forum member - so please be patient ! I have used google to find this forum and it seems relevant. I have a background of researching my family history via traditional records for many years on and off. I'm fairly confident my paternal ancestors have been in a similar area of west /central England for at least 600 yrs and likely well before that.

I recently took the plunge and had testing done through BritainsDNA. It turns out I share an ancient paternal ancestor will all you guys (I am assuming S28 is identical to U152). I have other markers but the quote from Brit DNA was…. …."You do not belong to any of the subtypes of S28 that you have been tested for.You may carry markers that further define your subtype, but do not yet appear on our tree. You will find these in your genetic signature."

It looks like there are quite a few subgroups of S28. I find it surprising that I don't belong to one as I would have assumed (probably incorrectly) that my ancestors moved a long time ago from the alleged north Alps homeland… Brit DNA also gave me the quote than 'my ancestors likely came to England with the Anglo-saxon migrations'

The UK distribution map they provided does show a distribution which to my eyes could be consistent with the 'Angles'. I realise this is probably speculation but ultimately I'd like to help or receive ideas from others about how we could resolve UK subgroups of S28 as well as looking for its ultimate origin

Cheers

Phil

Kwheaton
03-27-2014, 08:34 PM
Hi Phil,

There are others here who are more knowledgeable than me but I did just check the FTDNA U152 group and it looks like there are a few that are so far negative for all downstream SNPs of S28 (U152)
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=yresults

I would suggest discussing with the project managers your situation. I would think in the next 6 months with more Big Y and Full Y results there will be some possibilities for some SNP testing for you. It is also possible that your branch had no major(public) SNPs since the U152 broke apart.

Phil
03-27-2014, 10:45 PM
Thanks for that, I'll look into those resources you have kindly posted. I am willing to post my full Britains DNA result here if it helps or anyone can read anything into it

Elly
03-27-2014, 11:53 PM
Looks like T is at its highest in Northwest Ireland when pertaining to the British Isles; my T1a1 is from Lancaster, Lancashire, England. Vikings?

Jean-Pierre
03-31-2014, 02:00 PM
However, even though Brit DNA has said publicly that" most s=28 are descended from Roman Legionairies, although many also arrived earlier", they say that my DNA most likely came in with the Anglo Saxon invasions.

Rich,

I just submitted my DNA to BritainsDNA for the y-Chromo2 raw test. I was previously tested by the Belgian (Brabant) DNA study as R-L2+, L20-. Other SNP's under L2 were not tested. I was able to analyse the positive-SNP-list of Hal Eaton and Jacques Beaugrand through this forum.
I am wondering if you made your positive SNP's public on any forum, and if yes, on wich forum you did. I'm trying to prepare myself for if my results come. I expect those by the end of May.

Regards,
Jean-Pierre.

Solothurn
03-31-2014, 04:14 PM
Hi Phil

I am a U152** and also English :)

If funds are low and you are not on FTDNA's U152 project wait until new SNPs come in from Big Y as suggested by Kwheaton. Then maybe order the SNPs from http://www.yseq.net/ at $35 each

If you have a few more $$ to spend then join FTDNA with 12, 25 or 37 STR markers and see who you most 'resemble' and possibly be assigned to a group!

Just my opinion mind :)

S.



The UK distribution map they provided does show a distribution which to my eyes could be consistent with the 'Angles'. I realise this is probably speculation but ultimately I'd like to help or receive ideas from others about how we could resolve UK subgroups of S28 as well as looking for its ultimate origin

Cheers

Phil

Jean-Pierre
03-31-2014, 06:55 PM
Thanks for that, I'll look into those resources you have kindly posted. I am willing to post my full Britains DNA result here if it helps or anyone can read anything into it

Phil,

I'm interested in the list of your positive SNP's.

Regards,

Jean-Pierre.

Claxon
04-01-2014, 01:26 PM
Jean Pierre
Here are my positive results from Brit DNA

CTS10149+, CTS11150+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11948+, CTS11991+, CTS12057+, CTS12633+, CTS12773+, CTS1738+, CTS2134+, CTS2254+, CTS2480+, CTS2569+, CTS2664+, CTS3229+, CTS3315+, CTS3316+, CTS3358+, CTS3654+, CTS3818+, CTS3844+, CTS4293+, CTS4437+, CTS4740+, CTS4944+, CTS5139(+), CTS5248+, CTS543+, CTS6327+, CTS6376+, CTS6383+, CTS6445+, CTS7206+, CTS7301+, CTS7604+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7941+, CTS8627+, CTS8728+, CTS9200+, CTS9556+, CTS9760+, F1794+, L1002+, L1013+, L1053+, L1084+, L1098+, L1105+, L1118+, L1123+, L1129+, L1130+, L1137+, L1143+, L1145+, L1150+, L1179+, L1220+, L132+, L1345+, L1350+, L1352+, L265+, L278+, L320+, L352+, L438+, L440+, L468+, L470+, L479+, L498+, L508+, L543+, L58+, L604+, L741+, L752+, L757+, L768+, L773+, L822+, L82+, L875+, L882+, L969+, M213+, M235+, M294+, M299+, M415+, M42+, M523+, M526+, M74+, P128+, P131+, P135+, P139+, P140+, P141+, P142+, P143+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P163+, P224+, P225+, P226+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P236+, P239+, P242+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P282+, P284+, P285+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, PAGE081+, PAGE083+, PF1030+, PF1067+, PF1081+, PF1252+, PF1253+, PF1416+, PF1695+, PF1911+, PF256+, PF2590+, PF2592+, PF2615+, PF2617+, PF2619+, PF2621+, PF2622+, PF2624+, PF2626+, PF2629+, PF2651+, PF2653+, PF2655+, PF2658+, PF2660+, PF2677+, PF2679+, PF2683+, PF2684+, PF2685+, PF2688+, PF2690+, PF2700+, PF2702+, PF2704+, PF2709+, PF2716+, PF2718+, PF2722+, PF2734+, PF2736+, PF2737+, PF2739+, PF2742+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2760+, PF2762+, PF2775+, PF3495+, PF3500+, PF4363+, PF5459+, PF5461+, PF5480+, PF5495+, PF5857+, PF5861+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5870+, PF5872+, PF5873+, PF5885+, PF5887+, PF5893+, PF5898+, PF5908+, PF5912+, PF5914+, PF5917+, PF5918+, PF5923+, PF5927+, PF5936+, PF5940+, PF5941+, PF5945+, PF5949+, PF5953+, PF5957+, PF5958+, PF5964+, PF5966+, PF5977+, PF5980+, PF5981+, PF5982+, PF6016+, PF6040+, PF6047+, PF6055+, PF6056+, PF6063+, PF6065+, PF6079+, PF6082+, PF6114+, PF6115+, PF6116+, PF6129+, PF6136+, PF6143+, PF6145+, PF6242+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6252+, PF6258+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6267+, PF6269+, PF626+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6399+, PF6409+, PF6410+, PF6419+, PF6429+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6435+, PF643+, PF6443+, PF6451+, PF6463+, PF6467+, PF6469+, PF6471+, PF6475+, PF6481+, PF6484+, PF6487+, PF6495+, PF6497+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6524+, PF6528+, PF653+, PF6541+, PF679+, PF733+, PF744+, PF825(+), PF834+, PF869+, PF948+, S11330(+), S1159+, S11638+, S116+, S12547(+), S128+, S138+, S15363+, S1572+, S163(+), S1984(+), S19862(+), S1+, S2003+, S2017+, S20246+, S20315+, S26361+, S26903+, S349+, S351+, S3848+, S3+, S4888+, S4+, S566+, S6378+, S8235+, S8709+, S9158+, S959+, SRY10831(+), V102+, V104+, V126+, V168+, V186+, V187+, V221+, V226+, V231+, V241+, V29+, V41+, V52+, V9+, YSC0167+, YSC0186+, YSC0203+, YSC0227+, YSC1297+, Z1244+

Jean-Pierre
04-02-2014, 04:03 AM
Thank you Rich. This will keep me quiet the rest of the day.

Claxon
04-15-2014, 04:06 PM
Letter today from B DNA
Dear Richard,
We are writing with an update on your Chromo2 YDNA results. The initial results from Chromo2 tests have allowed us to learn a huge amount, and using this new data, our geneticists have been able to extend and refine the subtypes on the Y chromosome tree. As a result of this ongoing research, we have upgraded approximately 250 Y-SNP markers to subtype status, adding further definition to many customers’ results.

As part of this work, we have been able to further define your YDNA subtype. Please note that your genetic signature may also have changed, as we have reviewed some Y-SNPs to improve the positive vs. negative allele clustering, and removed some Y-SNPs altogether, after discovering they were not working properly.

Your updated YDNA subtype and genetic signature are now available via your myDNA account. Please log in to view.

Best wishes,

The BritainsDNA Team

Now, going to take a look
Rc

Claxon
04-15-2014, 04:17 PM
Subtype

Your subtype is R1b-PF4363

Your PF4363 subtype was discovered in Sardinia. You may carry markers that further define your subtype, but do not yet appear on our tree. You will find these in your genetic signature


so, Brit Dna is recognizing R1b PF4363 and
CTS10149+, CTS11150+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11948+, CTS11991+, CTS12057+, CTS12633+, CTS12773+, CTS1738+, CTS2134+, CTS2254+, CTS2480+, CTS2569+, CTS2664+, CTS3229+, CTS3315+, CTS3316+, CTS3358+, CTS3654+, CTS3818+, CTS3844+, CTS4293+, CTS4437+, CTS4740+, CTS4944+, CTS5139(+), CTS5248+, CTS543+, CTS6327+, CTS6376+, CTS6383+, CTS6445+, CTS7301+, CTS7604+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7941+, CTS8627+, CTS8728+, CTS9200+, CTS9556+, CTS9760+, F1794+, L1002+, L1013+, L1053+, L1084+, L1098+, L1105+, L1118+, L1123+, L1129+, L1130+, L1137+, L1143+, L1145+, L1150+, L1179+, L1220+, L132+, L1345+, L1350+, L1352+, L265+, L278+, L320+, L352+, L438+, L440+, L468+, L470+, L479+, L498+, L508+, L543+, L58+, L604+, L741+, L752+, L757+, L768+, L773+, L822+, L82+, L875+, L882+, L969+, M213+, M235+, M294+, M299+, M415+, M42+, M523+, M526+, M74+, P128+, P131+, P135+, P139+, P140+, P141+, P142+, P143+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P163+, P224+, P225+, P226+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P236+, P239+, P242+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P282+, P284+, P285+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, PAGE081+, PAGE083+, PF1030+, PF1067+, PF1081+, PF1252+, PF1253+, PF1416+, PF1695+, PF1911+, PF256+, PF2590+, PF2592+, PF2615+, PF2617+, PF2619+, PF2621+, PF2622+, PF2624+, PF2626+, PF2629+, PF2640+, PF2651+, PF2653+, PF2655+, PF2658+, PF2660+, PF2677+, PF2679+, PF2683+, PF2684+, PF2685+, PF2688+, PF2690+, PF2700+, PF2702+, PF2704+, PF2709+, PF2716+, PF2718+, PF2722+, PF2734+, PF2736+, PF2737+, PF2739+, PF2742+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2760+, PF2762+, PF2775+, PF3495+, PF3500+, PF4363+, PF5459+, PF5461+, PF5480+, PF5495+, PF5857+, PF5861+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5870+, PF5872+, PF5873+, PF5885+, PF5887+, PF5893+, PF5898+, PF5908+, PF5912+, PF5914+, PF5917+, PF5918+, PF5923+, PF5927+, PF5936+, PF5940+, PF5941+, PF5945+, PF5949+, PF5953+, PF5957+, PF5958+, PF5964+, PF5966+, PF5977+, PF5980+, PF5981+, PF5982+, PF6016+, PF6040+, PF6047+, PF6055+, PF6056+, PF6063+, PF6065+, PF6079+, PF6082+, PF6114+, PF6115+, PF6116+, PF6129+, PF6136+, PF6143+, PF6145+, PF6242+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6252+, PF6258+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6267+, PF6269+, PF626+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6399+, PF6409+, PF6410+, PF6419+, PF6429+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6435+, PF643+, PF6443+, PF6451+, PF6463+, PF6467+, PF6469+, PF6471+, PF6475+, PF6481+, PF6484+, PF6487+, PF6495+, PF6497+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6524+, PF6528+, PF653+, PF6541+, PF679+, PF733+, PF744+, PF825(+), PF834+, PF869+, PF948+, S11330(+), S1159+, S11638+, S116+, S12547(+), S128+, S138+, S15363+, S1572+, S163(+), S1984(+), S19862(+), S1+, S2003+, S2017+, S20246+, S20315+, S26361+, S26903+, S349+, S351+, S3848+, S3+, S4888+, S4+, S566+, S6378+, S8235+, S8709+, S9158+, S959+, SRY10831(+), V102+, V104+, V126+, V168+, V186+, V187+, V221+, V226+, V231+, V241+, V29+, V41+, V52+, V9+, YSC0167+, YSC0186+, YSC0203+, YSC0227+, YSC1297+, Z1244+

Bolgeris
04-15-2014, 08:52 PM
The same update for me.. (S255 is L2 .. i am L20 / S144 tested from Ftdna.. )
S3856 ..= CTS9733
i see in Rocca's tree.. Ftdna 211236 and others are CTS9733!!

Your subtype is R1b-S3856

Your S3856 subtype was recently discovered using Chromo2, so its distribution is not yet understood. It belongs to the larger S255 cluster. You may carry markers that further define your subtype, but do not yet appear on our tree. You will find these in your genetic signature.

CTS10149+, CTS11150+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11948+, CTS11991+, CTS12057+, CTS12633+, CTS12773+, CTS1738+, CTS2134+, CTS2254+, CTS2480+, CTS2569+, CTS2664+, CTS3229+, CTS3315+, CTS3316+, CTS3358+, CTS3654+, CTS3818+, CTS3844+, CTS4293+, CTS4437+, CTS4740+, CTS4944+, CTS5139(+), CTS5248+, CTS543+, CTS6327+, CTS6376+, CTS6383+, CTS6445+, CTS7301+, CTS7604+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7941+, CTS8627+, CTS8728+, CTS9200+, CTS9556+, CTS9760+, F1794+, L1002+, L1013+, L1053+, L1084+, L1098+, L1105+, L1118+, L1123+, L1129+, L1130+, L1137+, L1143+, L1145+, L1150+, L1179+, L1220+, L132+, L1345+, L1350+, L1352+, L265+, L278+, L320+, L352+, L438+, L440+, L468+, L470+, L479+, L498+, L508+, L543+, L58+, L604+, L741+, L752+, L757+, L768+, L773+, L822+, L82+, L875+, L882+, L969+, M213+, M228+, M235+, M294+, M299+, M415+, M42+, M523+, M526+, M74+, P128+, P131+, P135+, P139+, P140+, P141+, P142+, P143+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P163+, P224+, P225+, P226+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P236+, P239+, P242+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P282+, P284+, P285+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, PAGE081+, PAGE083+, PF1030+, PF1067+, PF1081+, PF1252+, PF1253+, PF1416+, PF1695+, PF1911+, PF256+, PF2590+, PF2592+, PF2615+, PF2617+, PF2619+, PF2621+, PF2622+, PF2624+, PF2626+, PF2629+, PF2640+, PF2651+, PF2653+, PF2655+, PF2658+, PF2660+, PF2677+, PF2679+, PF2683+, PF2684+, PF2685+, PF2688+, PF2690+, PF2700+, PF2702+, PF2704+, PF2709+, PF2716+, PF2718+, PF2722+, PF2734+, PF2736+, PF2737+, PF2739+, PF2742+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2760+, PF2762+, PF2775+, PF3495+, PF3500+, PF5459+, PF5461+, PF5480+, PF5495+, PF5857+, PF5861+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5870+, PF5872+, PF5873+, PF5885+, PF5887+, PF5893+, PF5898+, PF5908+, PF5912+, PF5914+, PF5917+, PF5918+, PF5923+, PF5927+, PF5936+, PF5940+, PF5941+, PF5945+, PF5949+, PF5953+, PF5957+, PF5958+, PF5964+, PF5966+, PF5977+, PF5980+, PF5981+, PF5982+, PF6016+, PF6040+, PF6047+, PF6055+, PF6056+, PF6063+, PF6065+, PF6079+, PF6082+, PF6114+, PF6115+, PF6116+, PF6129+, PF6136+, PF6143+, PF6145+, PF6242+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6258+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6267+, PF6269+, PF626+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6399+, PF6409+, PF6410+, PF6419+, PF6429+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6435+, PF643+, PF6443+, PF6451+, PF6463+, PF6467+, PF6469+, PF6471+, PF6475+, PF6481+, PF6484+, PF6487+, PF6495+, PF6497+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6524+, PF6528+, PF653+, PF6541+, PF679+, PF733+, PF744+, PF825(+), PF834+, PF869+, PF948+, S11330(+), S1159+, S11638+, S116+, S12547(+), S128+, S138+, S1572+, S163(+), S1984(+), S19862(+), S1+, S2003+, S2017+, S20246+, S20315+, S255+, S26361+, S26903+, S349+, S351+, S3848+, S3856+, S3+, S4888+, S492+, S4+, S6378+, S8235+, S8709+, S9158+, S959+, SRY10831(+), V102+, V104+, V126+, V168+, V186+, V187+, V221+, V226+, V231+, V241+, V29+, V41+, V52+, V9+, YSC0167+, YSC0186+, YSC0203+, YSC0227+, YSC1297+, Z1244+

Bolgeris
04-15-2014, 08:58 PM
The same update for me.. (S255 is L2 .. i am L20 / S144 tested from Ftdna.. )
S3856 ..= CTS9733
i see in Rocca's tree.. Ftdna 211236 and others are CTS9733!!

Your subtype is R1b-S3856

Your S3856 subtype was recently discovered using Chromo2, so its distribution is not yet understood. It belongs to the larger S255 cluster. You may carry markers that further define your subtype, but do not yet appear on our tree. You will find these in your genetic signature.

CTS10149+, CTS11150+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11948+, CTS11991+, CTS12057+, CTS12633+, CTS12773+, CTS1738+, CTS2134+, CTS2254+, CTS2480+, CTS2569+, CTS2664+, CTS3229+, CTS3315+, CTS3316+, CTS3358+, CTS3654+, CTS3818+, CTS3844+, CTS4293+, CTS4437+, CTS4740+, CTS4944+, CTS5139(+), CTS5248+, CTS543+, CTS6327+, CTS6376+, CTS6383+, CTS6445+, CTS7301+, CTS7604+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7941+, CTS8627+, CTS8728+, CTS9200+, CTS9556+, CTS9760+, F1794+, L1002+, L1013+, L1053+, L1084+, L1098+, L1105+, L1118+, L1123+, L1129+, L1130+, L1137+, L1143+, L1145+, L1150+, L1179+, L1220+, L132+, L1345+, L1350+, L1352+, L265+, L278+, L320+, L352+, L438+, L440+, L468+, L470+, L479+, L498+, L508+, L543+, L58+, L604+, L741+, L752+, L757+, L768+, L773+, L822+, L82+, L875+, L882+, L969+, M213+, M228+, M235+, M294+, M299+, M415+, M42+, M523+, M526+, M74+, P128+, P131+, P135+, P139+, P140+, P141+, P142+, P143+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P163+, P224+, P225+, P226+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P236+, P239+, P242+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P282+, P284+, P285+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, PAGE081+, PAGE083+, PF1030+, PF1067+, PF1081+, PF1252+, PF1253+, PF1416+, PF1695+, PF1911+, PF256+, PF2590+, PF2592+, PF2615+, PF2617+, PF2619+, PF2621+, PF2622+, PF2624+, PF2626+, PF2629+, PF2640+, PF2651+, PF2653+, PF2655+, PF2658+, PF2660+, PF2677+, PF2679+, PF2683+, PF2684+, PF2685+, PF2688+, PF2690+, PF2700+, PF2702+, PF2704+, PF2709+, PF2716+, PF2718+, PF2722+, PF2734+, PF2736+, PF2737+, PF2739+, PF2742+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2760+, PF2762+, PF2775+, PF3495+, PF3500+, PF5459+, PF5461+, PF5480+, PF5495+, PF5857+, PF5861+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5870+, PF5872+, PF5873+, PF5885+, PF5887+, PF5893+, PF5898+, PF5908+, PF5912+, PF5914+, PF5917+, PF5918+, PF5923+, PF5927+, PF5936+, PF5940+, PF5941+, PF5945+, PF5949+, PF5953+, PF5957+, PF5958+, PF5964+, PF5966+, PF5977+, PF5980+, PF5981+, PF5982+, PF6016+, PF6040+, PF6047+, PF6055+, PF6056+, PF6063+, PF6065+, PF6079+, PF6082+, PF6114+, PF6115+, PF6116+, PF6129+, PF6136+, PF6143+, PF6145+, PF6242+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6258+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6267+, PF6269+, PF626+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6399+, PF6409+, PF6410+, PF6419+, PF6429+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6435+, PF643+, PF6443+, PF6451+, PF6463+, PF6467+, PF6469+, PF6471+, PF6475+, PF6481+, PF6484+, PF6487+, PF6495+, PF6497+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6524+, PF6528+, PF653+, PF6541+, PF679+, PF733+, PF744+, PF825(+), PF834+, PF869+, PF948+, S11330(+), S1159+, S11638+, S116+, S12547(+), S128+, S138+, S1572+, S163(+), S1984(+), S19862(+), S1+, S2003+, S2017+, S20246+, S20315+, S255+, S26361+, S26903+, S349+, S351+, S3848+, S3856+, S3+, S4888+, S492+, S4+, S6378+, S8235+, S8709+, S9158+, S959+, SRY10831(+), V102+, V104+, V126+, V168+, V186+, V187+, V221+, V226+, V231+, V241+, V29+, V41+, V52+, V9+, YSC0167+, YSC0186+, YSC0203+, YSC0227+, YSC1297+, Z1244+

I see this group in U152 project..
G1 U152> L2> Z258/Z367/Z384> L20/Z383> CTS9733-> S1505

N114697 Bolling
211236 Bolling, R1b1a2a1a1b3c1
1495 Boling,

After 6 years the "Bolgeri" are not only L20+ but CTS9733 also?!?:P

Claxon
04-15-2014, 09:17 PM
Nice to see Brit DNA doing something. Its been too quiet in the DNA front

Bolgeris
04-15-2014, 09:19 PM
With the program mcgee yutility111.html would be a distance between TMCRA "Bolgeri" and "Bolling" about 1740 1410 years ..

Our common ancestors could be born..?!? before the Lombard (Longobardi) invasions in Italy and the Anglo-Saxon and Juti invasions of England ..?

Others Hypothesis?

modal 111 720 540 720 1620 1470 960 1020
N9198 Pietro Pio Bolgeri, 1670, Civenna, Lombardy, ITALY R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a 720 111 720 660 2100 2040 1680 1740
154083 Bolgeri 1900 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 540 720 111 660 2040 1890 1410 1470
183488 Mario James Belgeri R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 720 660 660 111 1950 1890 1680 1740
217453 Thomas Pears 1779 - 1837 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 1620 21002040 1950 111 1950 2190 2100
212243 Niels Eriksson, 1575: Furved, Gesäter, Sweden R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 1470 2040 1890 1890 1950 111 1950 1950
N114697 Benjamin Bolling b. 1734 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 960 1680 1410 1680 2190 1950 111 90
211236 Benjamin Bolling, b. 1734 and d.1832 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 1020 1740 1470 1740 2100 1950 90 111


- Infinite allele mutation model is used
- Average mutation rate varies: 0.0026 to 0.0026
Custom rates
- Values on the diagonal indicate number of markers tested
- Probability is 50% that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated
- Average generaton: 30 years

R.Rocca
04-16-2014, 03:37 PM
With the program mcgee yutility111.html would be a distance between TMCRA "Bolgeri" and "Bolling" about 1740 1410 years ..

Our common ancestors could be born..?!? before the Lombard (Longobardi) invasions in Italy and the Anglo-Saxon and Juti invasions of England ..?

Others Hypothesis?

modal 111 720 540 720 1620 1470 960 1020
N9198 Pietro Pio Bolgeri, 1670, Civenna, Lombardy, ITALY R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a 720 111 720 660 2100 2040 1680 1740
154083 Bolgeri 1900 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 540 720 111 660 2040 1890 1410 1470
183488 Mario James Belgeri R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 720 660 660 111 1950 1890 1680 1740
217453 Thomas Pears 1779 - 1837 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 1620 21002040 1950 111 1950 2190 2100
212243 Niels Eriksson, 1575: Furved, Gesäter, Sweden R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 1470 2040 1890 1890 1950 111 1950 1950
N114697 Benjamin Bolling b. 1734 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 960 1680 1410 1680 2190 1950 111 90
211236 Benjamin Bolling, b. 1734 and d.1832 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 1020 1740 1470 1740 2100 1950 90 111


- Infinite allele mutation model is used
- Average mutation rate varies: 0.0026 to 0.0026
Custom rates
- Values on the diagonal indicate number of markers tested
- Probability is 50% that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated
- Average generaton: 30 years

Bolling is L20+ CTS9733+ S1505+, so it will be interesting if you belong to these groups as well. Hopefully you get your Big-Y results soon.

Acque agitate
04-16-2014, 04:17 PM
With the program mcgee yutility111.html would be a distance between TMCRA "Bolgeri" and "Bolling" about 1740 1410 years ..

Our common ancestors could be born..?!? before the Lombard (Longobardi) invasions in Italy and the Anglo-Saxon and Juti invasions of England ..?

Others Hypothesis?

modal 111 720 540 720 1620 1470 960 1020
N9198 Pietro Pio Bolgeri, 1670, Civenna, Lombardy, ITALY R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a 720 111 720 660 2100 2040 1680 1740
154083 Bolgeri 1900 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 540 720 111 660 2040 1890 1410 1470
183488 Mario James Belgeri R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 720 660 660 111 1950 1890 1680 1740
217453 Thomas Pears 1779 - 1837 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 1620 21002040 1950 111 1950 2190 2100
212243 Niels Eriksson, 1575: Furved, Gesäter, Sweden R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 1470 2040 1890 1890 1950 111 1950 1950
N114697 Benjamin Bolling b. 1734 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 960 1680 1410 1680 2190 1950 111 90
211236 Benjamin Bolling, b. 1734 and d.1832 R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 1020 1740 1470 1740 2100 1950 90 111


- Infinite allele mutation model is used
- Average mutation rate varies: 0.0026 to 0.0026
Custom rates
- Values on the diagonal indicate number of markers tested
- Probability is 50% that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated
- Average generaton: 30 years


Hello Bolgeri,
in my opinion Bolling belongs to a group characterized by the following markers:
DYS385 = 11-12
DYS439 = 14
DYS458 = 18
DYS447 = 24
DYS557 = 17
DYS572 = 10

I have not added DYS460 = 10 as this marker is typical of all R-L20.

To this group belong the following persons:
a) Bolling (N114697, 211236 and 1495);
b) Bolden (205794)
c) Harvey (N86905)

You share only DYS439 = 13 (13, not 14). Therefore, I believe possible that you belong this group, but I think statically likely that
your ancestor shared with other people lived long before the time that you assume. In my opinion not before 3800/4000 years ago.

Obviously this is my opinion.

Bolgeris
04-16-2014, 06:53 PM
Also I'm waiting for my Big y and I hope the test results will arrive soon..;)

Bolgeris
04-16-2014, 07:10 PM
Hello Bolgeri,
in my opinion Bolling belongs to a group characterized by the following markers:
DYS385 = 11-12
DYS439 = 14
DYS458 = 18
DYS447 = 24
DYS557 = 17
DYS572 = 10

I have not added DYS460 = 10 as this marker is typical of all R-L20.

To this group belong the following persons:
a) Bolling (N114697, 211236 and 1495);
b) Bolden (205794)
c) Harvey (N86905)

You share only DYS439 = 13 (13, not 14). Therefore, I believe possible that you belong this group, but I think statically likely that
your ancestor shared with other people lived long before the time that you assume. In my opinion not before 3800/4000 years ago.

Obviously this is my opinion.

Thank you for your calculation,
with this result of 3500 years ago ..
this would mean that the origin of our subdivision CTS9733 can be traced back to any source ..
Celts, Italics, Cisalpine Gauls, Celts Germanized (Lombards), etc. ..

In the old classification of L20 .. Bolgeri were in the first cluster together with Mr. Laurans and other French gentlemen.

I remember that Steve Gilbert kindly note our DYS458 = 16 and DYS557 = 16 for all Bolgeri ..

Bolgeris
04-16-2014, 07:43 PM
Nice to see Brit DNA doing something. Its been too quiet in the DNA front

Our Chromo 2 SNP differences are :
Claxon: PF4363 - S15363 - S566
Bolgeri: S255=Z367 - S492=Z384 - S3856

Jean-Pierre
04-17-2014, 06:29 AM
Question for Mr Rocca:

I see that Bolgeris has both SNP's M228 and S3856=CTS9733. What is their position under L20?

Bolgeris
04-17-2014, 07:39 AM
Question for Mr Rocca:

I see that Bolgeris has both SNP's M228 and S3856=CTS9733. What is their position under L20?

Only the branch of the Bolgeri emigrated from Civenna in 1720 (become Belgieri)... take the M228 mutation ...

The others, both those who surname remained Bolgeri or others became Belgeri , who remained in the Como's valley of origin and in the villages of Civenna, Barni, Asso .. are only L20+
.. but all with differences GD 11 of 111 STR ..
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bolgeri/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

I am Belgieri and also M228 as all others in our branch Belgieri.

I'm waiting for the test results BIG Y and, in the meantime, with the chromo2 test i became S3856 (which should be CTS9733).

M228 and S3856 all are subclassifications of L20 +.

Claxon
04-17-2014, 07:40 AM
Our Chromo 2 SNP differences are :
Claxon: PF4363 - S15363 - S566
Bolgeri: S255=Z367 - S492=Z384 - S3856

Thanks Bolgeri, but this stuff left me behind a LONG time ago. :-) Now I am only an interested bystander, who gets run over from time to time. I have placed my results here, for any that might be interested. Thank you for your input.

Bolgeris
04-17-2014, 09:34 AM
Thanks Bolgeri, but this stuff left me behind a LONG time ago. :-) Now I am only an interested bystander, who gets run over from time to time. I have placed my results here, for any that might be interested. Thank you for your input.

Thanks..
Even now I hang out on the forum as a spectator .. int...
I just did a little research to compare what SNP we had in common ..
nothing more. ..

R.Rocca
04-17-2014, 11:35 AM
Hello Bolgeri,
in my opinion Bolling belongs to a group characterized by the following markers:
DYS385 = 11-12
DYS439 = 14
DYS458 = 18
DYS447 = 24
DYS557 = 17
DYS572 = 10

I have not added DYS460 = 10 as this marker is typical of all R-L20.

To this group belong the following persons:
a) Bolling (N114697, 211236 and 1495);
b) Bolden (205794)
c) Harvey (N86905)

You share only DYS439 = 13 (13, not 14). Therefore, I believe possible that you belong this group, but I think statically likely that
your ancestor shared with other people lived long before the time that you assume. In my opinion not before 3800/4000 years ago.

Obviously this is my opinion.

I agree...Chromo 2.0 would have already tested Bolgeri for S1505, so if it is not showing in his results, he was either negative for it or got a no-call. So, Bolgeri's should now be interested to see if he shares any SNPs below CTS9733 with kits 217453 and/or 216221.

Bolgeris
04-17-2014, 04:14 PM
I agree...Chromo 2.0 would have already tested Bolgeri for S1505, so if it is not showing in his results, he was either negative for it or got a no-call. So, Bolgeri's should now be interested to see if he shares any SNPs below CTS9733 with kits 217453 and/or 216221.

kit 217453 SNP are : L2+ Z367+ L20+ YSC0000081+ PF121+ L98+ L144+ L763+ L303+ CTS358+ CTS7275+ CTS8127
a lot of SNP below L20+..:P:dance:

R.Rocca
04-17-2014, 07:56 PM
kit 217453 SNP are : L2+ Z367+ L20+ YSC0000081+ PF121+ L98+ L144+ L763+ L303+ CTS358+ CTS7275+ CTS8127
a lot of SNP below L20+..:P:dance:

Yes, but as a caution, I don't know if any of those SNPs are specific just to L20.

Armenis
04-17-2014, 08:26 PM
I'm L2* (L20-) and positive for YSC0000081+, CTS358+, CTS7275+, CTS8127+, L352+ but L353 is ?, L760+, L761+, L762+ but L763 is ? (high probability both L353 & L763 are positive).

I am however negative for L98-, L144-, L303-, PF121 is ? (high probability PF121 is in fact negative).

MitchellSince1893
04-17-2014, 08:41 PM
Yes, but as a caution, I don't know if any of those SNPs are specific just to L20.
I'm L20-

I'm positive for: YSC0000081, CTS358, CTS7275, and CTS8127
I'm negative for: L98, L144, L303
No read for: PF121, L763,

R.Rocca
04-17-2014, 10:25 PM
I'm L2* (L20-) and positive for YSC0000081+, CTS358+, CTS7275+, CTS8127+, L352+ but L353 is ?, L760+, L761+, L762+ but L763 is ?

I am however negative for L98-, L144-, L303-, PF121 is ?

CTS358.2, CTS7275, CTS8127.2, CTS11795.2, L144.2, PF121.2 and YSC0000081.2 are located downstream from L20. Listed 19 March 2013.
http://www.isogg.org/tree//ISOGG_HapgrpRPrivNotes13.html

Correct, but that is a list of private SNPs...so without more than one L20+ person testing positive for them, they will remain on the private list.

Armenis
04-18-2014, 05:05 AM
Correct, but that is a list of private SNPs...so without more than one L20+ person testing positive for them, they will remain on the private list.

There is a DF27+ also positive for some of the same SNPs ... suggesting that these are upstream from U152 & DF27.


My Big-Y results have come in (110924 - Z225). I am positive for the following known but unclassified SNPs: CTS358, CTS1169, CTS1795, CTS2619, CTS2626, CTS2636, CTS2637, CTS2638, CTS2639, CTS2663, CTS2664, CTS2988, CTS2992, CTS3063, CTS3067, CTS3231, CTS3316, CTS3475, CTS3575, CTS3622, CTS3625, CTS3649, CTS3650, CTS3697, CTS3775, CTS3813, CTS6985, CTS7275, CTS8001, CTS8127, CTS8350, CTS8507, CTS8508, CTS8896, CTS9733, F1343, L104, L105, L108, L110, L113, L114, PF5888, PF5889, PF6455, PF682, YSC0000057, YSC0000077, YSC0000081, YSC0000107, YSC0000108, YSC0000109, YSC0000110, YSC0000193.

CTS7275 & CTS358 may be upstream, since I understand that someone (217453) who is U152 is positive for those SNPs. Of course the others may be upstream as well.

Bolgeris
04-18-2014, 11:07 AM
I agree...Chromo 2.0 would have already tested Bolgeri for S1505, so if it is not showing in his results, he was either negative for it or got a no-call. So, Bolgeri's should now be interested to see if he shares any SNPs below CTS9733 with kits 217453 and/or 216221.

I have checked the various CTS9733 and I have some hypotheses.
216221 origin 1575: Furved, Gesäter, Sweden
212243 origin 1575: Furved, Gesäter, Sweden
217453 Pears ... Danelaw?!?
Since I have serious doubts that the Italics or Romans have emigrated to Sweden before 1500 and that English gentl. Pears ancestral origin is the area of the Danelaw ..

Perhaps the hypothesis that some italians L20 + (as Bolgeri and Grassi) originate from the Lombards invasion in Italy is not wrong ..

My ancestral village "Civenna" was a land of colonization of a FARA during the Lombard invasion of Italy in 600.

The FARA (plural: FARE in Italian, FARAE in Latin) was the basic unit of social organization and military of the Lombards (Longobards). It was formed by the union of a compact and homogeneous group of families (originating from the same noble clan) and was able to organize contingent with military functions of exploration, attack and occupation of territories during the great migrations that led the people Lombard (Longobards) from the Baltic to Pannonia, to Italy.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fara_(Longobardi)

R.Rocca
04-18-2014, 12:26 PM
There is a DF27+ also positive for some of the same SNPs ... suggesting that these are upstream from U152 & DF27.

Thanks for pointed that out. They would only be upstream if every U152+, L21+, DF27+ has them. If not, then they are somewhat unstable SNPs that mutated a different times in non-related men. I'm not sure which case it is, but either way, it is still not a downstream SNPs which is what we are looking for.

Phil
05-07-2014, 04:51 PM
Last time I posted I was told by Britain's DNA I wasn't in any subgroup of U152 (or S28 as they call it). I have just had an email to say they have now put me in the S139 (L2) group and then S14469 subgroup. I noticed Elly had also been recently told the same news (see L2 thread ). I'm now obviously intrigued to know more about this group. I have emailed BDNA to see if they can provide numbers / frequency/ geographical hot spots etc. I'm assuming this may be an 'English subgroup???'

R.Rocca
05-07-2014, 05:28 PM
Last time I posted I was told by Britain's DNA I wasn't in any subgroup of U152 (or S28 as they call it). I have just had an email to say they have now put me in the S139 (L2) group and then S14469 subgroup. I noticed Elly had also been recently told the same news (see L2 thread ). I'm now obviously intrigued to know more about this group. I have emailed BDNA to see if they can provide numbers / frequency/ geographical hot spots etc. I'm assuming this may be an 'English subgroup???'

Phil, in the FTDNA U152+ project there are currently two FGC4183 (a.k.a. S14469) from Italy, two from the UK and one each from Poland, and Germany. So, it is very unlikely that it is an English marker.

Phil
05-07-2014, 06:13 PM
Ok thanks Richard. I guess it must be a relatively 'old' marker then (> 2000 years?) . Is it worth setting up a subpage for this group? I'll update if I get any news from BDNA. I can only find Elly online who has this marker so (wrongly ?!) I assumed it was quite 'rare' .

R.Rocca
05-07-2014, 06:36 PM
Ok thanks Richard. I guess it must be a relatively 'old' marker then (> 2000 years?) . Is it worth setting up a subpage for this group? I'll update if I get any news from BDNA. I can only find Elly online who has this marker so (wrongly ?!) I assumed it was quite 'rare' .

Sure, no problem Phil. I think the confusion is that it is now referenced by two names; FGC4183 and S14469.

MitchellSince1893
10-24-2015, 05:57 AM
Just the S28/U152 for UK regions. I won't post the rest of their stuff. Not that useful without sample size and collection details.

Hopefully they will update this over time.

1071

Hal,

Has Britain's DNA updated their S28/U152 map? The one you posted before is almost 2 years old. Just curious what the new percentages are for U152.

Thanks

haleaton
10-24-2015, 06:09 AM
Hal,

Has Britain's DNA updated their S28/U152 map? The one you posted before is almost 2 years old. Just curious what the new percentages are for U152.

Thanks

I just checked and map has not changed. I get the impression Britain's DNA which did have some good things really does not do much. No information about other matches, though they do not really cover L2. I think for the time the did some good things. Wilson eventually released the definition of all those S SNPs, but unless there is something I missed they are an order of magnitude behind the times in short years. Sort of sad, as so many of us have British ancestors. Sad because the potential and skills are there. Hope somebody can say why I am wrong about Britain's DNA.

MitchellSince1893
10-24-2015, 07:02 AM
I just checked and map has not changed. I get the impression Britain's DNA which did have some good things really does not do much. No information about other matches, though they do not really cover L2. I think for the time the did some good things. Wilson eventually released the definition of all those S SNPs, but unless there is something I missed they are an order of magnitude behind the times in short years. Sort of sad, as so many of us have British ancestors. Sad because the potential and skills are there. Hope somebody can say why I am wrong about Britain's DNA.

Oh well, I was wanting to compare an updated map from Britain's DNA to the data I've been collecting from the FTDNA British Isles by County Project.

Here's a side by side comparison. I reordered the data to match the Britain's DNA regions, so it would be more of an apples to apples comparison.

6427


I'm assuming the sample size for Britain's DNA was greater than that from the FTDNA project (1086 confirmed SNP samples).

The pattern for Ireland, Wales, and SW England is very similar between the 2 maps.
Notable differences are in Central and Southeastern England, and SE Scotland. Differences may be due to small samples sizes available from the FTDNA data.

Also we are probably comparing mostly British/Irish samples (Britain's DNA) to mostly British/Irish American samples (FTDNA). With more samples the FTDNA project data could potentially reflect what the distribution was like 300-400 years ago (assuming most of the participants accurately knew their ancestor's home county).


It took me a long time but I've finally compiled all the haplogroups from the FTDNA British Isles project into a spreadsheet. I'm almost done. Just need to break Haplogroup I into I1 and I2, and J into J1 and J2...very tedious work but I will post the results in a new thread when I'm done.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-24-2015, 07:41 AM
I just checked and map has not changed. I get the impression Britain's DNA which did have some good things really does not do much. No information about other matches, though they do not really cover L2. I think for the time the did some good things. Wilson eventually released the definition of all those S SNPs, but unless there is something I missed they are an order of magnitude behind the times in short years. Sort of sad, as so many of us have British ancestors. Sad because the potential and skills are there. Hope somebody can say why I am wrong about Britain's DNA.

I tested Chromo 11 with Cymru DNA ( same group I believe ) and asked if there had been any recent developments on my "little known" as they described it, U106 sub-group, particularly whether any further examples had been found in the UK, as the only other known examples have turned up in Tuscany and Belgium( one in each country) I believe.
The initial impression was they didn't really know what I was referring to and no further response to date. Very disappointing for something which cost quite a lot of money. I was expecting some sort of on-going communication, but it doesn't seem to be happening, not in my case anyway.

lamahorse
10-25-2015, 10:06 PM
Actually quite surprising that the % of U152 in Ireland is higher in parts you'd expect to have the least foreign influence. I would have thought that Ulster and Leinster would be the highest.

As for U152 arrival in Ireland, outside of English settlers or Norman conquerers; it's rather interesting that the province with the least history of foreign interference has the highest percentage of U152 (that's assuming U152 arrived in Ireland more recently via the English or Normans).

Bolgeris
10-25-2015, 10:39 PM
Sorry but i think that a lot of norman or english catholic escaped in Connachta after Cromwell..
May be explained U152 in Connachta?

lamahorse
10-26-2015, 09:01 PM
That's an interesting idea.

There does seem to be a high percentage of Norman family names who settled in Ireland in the U152 group. That U152 Barry cluster is probably a good candidate for a family that has been here since the Normans conquered half the island.

Still, you'd expect U152 to be the highest in Leinster considering it was the centre of English rule for around 800 years. The Normans that conquered Ireland were in the main the grandchildren of the same Normans that conquered and settled Wales. These Normans and their descendants, were effectively assimilated by the native Irish which gave rise to the distinction of the 'Old English' of Ireland and the later arrivals, the 'New English'. These Old English suffered heavily under the Tudors and later Cromwell.

wombatofthenorth
04-11-2016, 03:17 AM
My dad got (so far we can trace his strictly paternal line back to around 1826 in Latvia to an apparent serf (i.e. not likely Baltic German and seemingly Latvian)):
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a1 L20/S144+
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a1~ L737-, L738 (not tested?), L739-, S256/Z291-, Z383+
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a1a~ CTS11795.2-, PF121.2+
which seems odd since my dad then tested negative for a few things supposedly upstream of PF121.2.
Supposedly L20 is not supposed to be from the Baltic area.