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jshook
04-15-2019, 06:12 PM
Hi guys,

Just wanted to share my (funny) story. So a couple weeks ago, I sent an email to Living DNA asking why I still didn't have any German ancestry whatsoever when it shows up in other tests (I'm around 20% on 23andMe) and very clearly in my known paper trail (my mom's side is pretty significantly German.) The reply back from "Rosie" was "It is likely that your sample was testing against our old European panel, which we have since updated and improved. Please could you specify your kit ID number -(starting in LD0) and if you wish, we can reprocess your results against our new panel and revaluate the outcome." So I said, yes, that'd be great because the results about nearly two years old at this point. That happened today.

Old results (Complete mode):

European – 72.3%
Great Britain & Ireland – 70.9%
South Central England – 13.3%
South Yorkshire – 9.4%
South Wales Border – 8.5%
Northwest Scotland – 6.4%
South England – 6.2%
Cornwall – 5.2%
Southeast England – 4.9%
Cumbria – 4.8%
North Yorkshire – 4.2%
Northumbria – 3%
Northwest England – 2.9%
Lincolnshire – 2.1%
Scandinavia – 1.4%

Asian
Japan & Korea – 26.7%
North Turkey – 1%


The new, updated results in Complete Mode:

Europe - 74.8%
Great Britain and Ireland - 66.2%
Southeast England - 16.7%
Cumbria - 7.1%
South Central England - 6.9%
Ireland - 6.5%
Cornwall - 5.8%
South England - 5.6%
Northumbria - 5.1%
East Anglia - 3.9%
South Yorkshire - 3.4%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland - 3.2%
Northwest Scotland - 1.9%

Europe (South) - 8.6%
Iberian Peninsula - 8.6%

Asia (East) - 25.2%
Japan and Korea - 25.2%


To point out the obvious issue, I'm not at all Iberian and definitely not 8.6%. I've found exactly one Spanish ancestor from 300 years ago and 23andMe puts me at 0.3% Iberian (AncestryDNA doesn't find it at all.) In fairness, that goes completely to "Europe (unassigned)" in Standard mode but I'm wholly confused about how they assigned that much to begin with. Also, 9.2% of my DNA becomes "Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned)" in Standard Mode and all of the UK assignments make less sense for my paper trail that they originally did, because I do have a fairly high concentration of Yorkshire ancestors. The new Cautious mode groupings (I only get three now, Southeast England-related, Cumbria-related and Cornwall-related), are also strange. And as you can see... no German at all. I'd definitely advise waiting if you're thinking of buying this kit because this is just bizarre. lol

04-15-2019, 06:54 PM
Hi guys,

Just wanted to share my (funny) story. So a couple weeks ago, I sent an email to Living DNA asking why I still didn't have any German ancestry whatsoever when it shows up in other tests (I'm around 20% on 23andMe) and very clearly in my known paper trail (my mom's side is pretty significantly German.) The reply back from "Rosie" was "It is likely that your sample was testing against our old European panel, which we have since updated and improved. Please could you specify your kit ID number -(starting in LD0) and if you wish, we can reprocess your results against our new panel and revaluate the outcome." So I said, yes, that'd be great because the results about nearly two years old at this point. That happened today.

Old results (Complete mode):

European – 72.3%
Great Britain & Ireland – 70.9%
South Central England – 13.3%
South Yorkshire – 9.4%
South Wales Border – 8.5%
Northwest Scotland – 6.4%
South England – 6.2%
Cornwall – 5.2%
Southeast England – 4.9%
Cumbria – 4.8%
North Yorkshire – 4.2%
Northumbria – 3%
Northwest England – 2.9%
Lincolnshire – 2.1%
Scandinavia – 1.4%

Asian
Japan & Korea – 26.7%
North Turkey – 1%


The new, updated results in Complete Mode:

Europe - 74.8%
Great Britain and Ireland - 66.2%
Southeast England - 16.7%
Cumbria - 7.1%
South Central England - 6.9%
Ireland - 6.5%
Cornwall - 5.8%
South England - 5.6%
Northumbria - 5.1%
East Anglia - 3.9%
South Yorkshire - 3.4%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland - 3.2%
Northwest Scotland - 1.9%

Europe (South) - 8.6%
Iberian Peninsula - 8.6%

Asia (East) - 25.2%
Japan and Korea - 25.2%


To point out the obvious issue, I'm not at all Iberian and definitely not 8.6%. I've found exactly one Spanish ancestor from 300 years ago and 23andMe puts me at 0.3% Iberian (AncestryDNA doesn't find it at all.) In fairness, that goes completely to "Europe (unassigned)" in Standard mode but I'm wholly confused about how they assigned that much to begin with. Also, 9.2% of my DNA becomes "Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned)" in Standard Mode and all of the UK assignments make less sense for my paper trail that they originally did, because I do have a fairly high concentration of Yorkshire ancestors. The new Cautious mode groupings (I only get three now, Southeast England-related, Cumbria-related and Cornwall-related), are also strange. And as you can see... no German at all. I'd definitely advise waiting if you're thinking of buying this kit because this is just bizarre. lol


At least they now have South East England as your top score, they have said in the past that this region can be very easily mistaken for Germany.

greerpalmer
04-17-2019, 09:25 PM
Thanks for sharing. It appears the new reference panel still has difficulty differentiating your English and German. Is your German background predominately in Northwestern Germany?

My results updated to reflect 33.5% Germanic when two different 23andMe tests show 25.3% German/French & 31.6% German/French (with broadly categories to account for the remaining balance). I believe the 1/3rd assessment is fairly accurate based on my known trail of diverse Germanic lineage; though, my SE England and East Anglia values are still suspiciously high. Side note: almost all of my German on AncestryDNA falls into NW European.

jshook
04-24-2019, 10:36 PM
Thanks for sharing. It appears the new reference panel still has difficulty differentiating your English and German. Is your German background predominately in Northwestern Germany?

My results updated to reflect 33.5% Germanic when two different 23andMe tests show 25.3% German/French & 31.6% German/French (with broadly categories to account for the remaining balance). I believe the 1/3rd assessment is fairly accurate based on my known trail of diverse Germanic lineage; though, my SE England and East Anglia values are still suspiciously high. Side note: almost all of my German on AncestryDNA falls into NW European.

It's not. It's almost 100% southwest Germany (Rhineland-Palatinate and Baden-Württemberg areas.)

sktibo
04-25-2019, 05:53 AM
It's not. It's almost 100% southwest Germany (Rhineland-Palatinate and Baden-Württemberg areas.)

from what I've seen its southern and western German ancestry which has problems being classified as English both in Living and Ancestry (NW Europe England and Wales category) while 23 has a category that seems identify W and S German and French pretty decently while North and East German doesn't fit well.

The problem as I see it is that Germany cannot be a single category. If your references are based on north germans then the S and W will fall closer to England. If your reference is based on s and w germans then north will often get Scandinavia and eastern will get eastern europe.

jshook
04-26-2019, 06:02 PM
from what I've seen its southern and western German ancestry which has problems being classified as English both in Living and Ancestry (NW Europe England and Wales category) while 23 has a category that seems identify W and S German and French pretty decently while North and East German doesn't fit well.

The problem as I see it is that Germany cannot be a single category. If your references are based on north germans then the S and W will fall closer to England. If your reference is based on s and w germans then north will often get Scandinavia and eastern will get eastern europe.

Yeah, I could see that. FWIW, I get 0% Germanic on AncestryDNA as well (and a random 4% Norway result.) 23andMe is the only one to call any German for myself at all.

Ron from PA
05-04-2019, 01:03 PM
Did the survey. Similar issue. I estimate i'm 60/70% German mainly SW. They updated my results now have 74% Germanic. Which is a ton closer then the 0% I got prior. Also get 12.7% Scotland/Ireland but with no sub region breakdown. The problem now is they eliminated my English. Never told them I had none. I'd say it's a similar amount as my Scottish. Looks like they removed England from the panel when they did my sample over.

Ron from PA
05-10-2019, 01:21 PM
From the update on the German project. Seems at present they're not doing sub region breakdowns. Until they completely update their AC.

shazou
05-14-2019, 08:13 AM
Does anyone here have a list for their updated Asian regions??

Ralex004
08-07-2019, 11:23 AM
I asked the company if they would do any updates to my results for similar reasons. I got no French or German estimates and wondered if they'd expanded their sample-set. They said that they couldn't do it just yet as they're rolling out an update for all customers soon. No sign of it whenever I check.

geebee
08-07-2019, 03:14 PM
from what I've seen its southern and western German ancestry which has problems being classified as English both in Living and Ancestry (NW Europe England and Wales category) while 23 has a category that seems identify W and S German and French pretty decently while North and East German doesn't fit well.

The problem as I see it is that Germany cannot be a single category. If your references are based on north germans then the S and W will fall closer to England. If your reference is based on s and w germans then north will often get Scandinavia and eastern will get eastern europe.

What's particularly stupid about this is, where does Ancestry think the "German Palatine" ancestry of many Americans came from? It's precisely those areas that they seem to have the greatest problem with. So I get 80% "England, Wales & Northwestern Europe" and only 6% "Germanic Europe". 34.4% of my ancestry is from "Palatine Germany", with another 6.25% from Alsace-Lorraine, 3.1% from France, and 1.2% from Switzerland. But I get no "France" and, as I said, only 6% "Germanic Europe".

On the other hand, my actually "British & Irish" ancestry (combined) is only 40.6% -- not the 91% the Ancestry has for the two together. Plus, they don't see any of my Spanish ancestry, which is 12.5%. About the only thing they seem to get right is my Native American ancestry, which is almost identical on paper to Ancestry's prediction of 2%. (23andMe puts it a little higher, at 2.3%.)

Arguably, the fact that Ancestry calls the region "England, Wales & Northwestern Europe" is an acknowledgement that they realize this ancestry isn't just British. But then they proceed to talk about the region as if it were, and they call my 80% in this category a 55% increase for me from my old result. Since the only component I had pre-update that was 25% "Great Britain", it's clear that at some level Ancestry thinks that "England, Wales & Northwestern Europe" = "Great Britain" by a different name. For some reason they didn't say that my 6% "Germanic Europe" represents a 38% decrease from my 44% "Europe West", but basically that is the case.

It's obvious they did more in selecting the reference panels than just adding more samples. They brought in more "continental-leaning" samples for the "England, Wales & Northwestern Europe" panel, even if the samples were limited to England and Wales; and it's likely that they also eliminated any samples from the "Germanic Europe" panel that were deemed "too similar" to the "England, Wales & Northwestern Europe" panel. That likely means that if my Palatine ancestors themselves could be tested, many of them would lean more toward "England, Wales & Northwestern Europe" than they would toward "Germanic Europe" -- despite the fact that they actually came from Germany long before the present-day members of the reference panel (or their grandparents) were ever born.

Meanwhile, 23andMe says I have 39.2% "French & German" -- which is considerably closer to my paper trail than Ancestry is. It also says I have just 31.4% "British & Irish", which is somewhat less than what my paper trail says, but also closer to the actual amount. Another 19.7% of my ancestry is identified as "broadly northwestern European". They do see some of my Spanish ancestry, but not as much as my paper trail says I should have -- just 5.1% (instead of 12.5%). Since my Spanish ancestors were from the island of Menorca, DNA-wise they might shift more in the direction of the French. (But as I said, Ancestry doesn't see any French either.)

With LivingDNA, I have 45.5% "France"; 26.3% "Germanic"; 12.6% "Ireland"; 7.7% "Northwest Scotland"; and 7.9% "Iberian Peninsula". No Native American in their analysis, but it's just about the only company that doesn't find any -- even FTDNA says "2%".

I can't imagine that even with different DNA tests there's that much difference in the results. Different SNPs may be tested, but they shouldn't lead to markedly different ancestries. Rather, that is likely due to: (1) different reference panels; and (2) different algorithm for determining ancestry.

EDIT:

Wanted to add that at 23andMe, under "French & German" they further give "Switzerland" as a likely match, and "Hesse" as a possible match.