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digital_noise
04-18-2019, 10:23 PM
I saw this on FTDNA, someone has created a nifty little tool to map out SNP progress. Not mine, just sharing. It was created by Rob Spencer

http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

firemonkey
04-18-2019, 10:54 PM
I'm E-BY5234 on FTDNA.



https://oi4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/labile/genealogy/E-BY5234%20SNP%20tracker.png

JMcB
04-19-2019, 12:01 AM
Here’s mine

29886

29888

29887

vettor
04-19-2019, 12:31 AM
interesting

mine below

the only purples I have is the K-M9 and north of this one....

The only issue I have is that Yfull dated the SNP at 1460BC that's 2300 years earlier than this program

https://i.postimg.cc/CK0f0S9z/snptool.png (https://postimg.cc/Wd946LNv)

digital_noise
04-19-2019, 12:41 AM
Im E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
Here's my map. My paternal line lands in deep south Calabria. Furthest back I can get documented is 1743, but likely at the least early 1700's based on birth records.

29889

digital_noise
04-19-2019, 01:01 AM
I'm E-BY5234 on FTDNA.



https://oi4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/labile/genealogy/E-BY5234%20SNP%20tracker.png

You and I split at CTS8814. You went CTS5856, I went PH1246. Kinda cool to see roughly where this occurred

firemonkey
04-19-2019, 07:06 PM
Is BY5234 with mine in France on the map?

Paul333
04-19-2019, 07:20 PM
Had entered mine earlier Y H2 P96, and it showed Paleolithic mapping route to the Varna area, of Eastern Bulgaria, from F-89+1, located in modern central Iraq, moving in a North West movement to Europe, through Anatolia, to Eastern modern Bulgaria around the Varna area only.

Today entered the same again, but it is now showing only a North Eastern movement, from the original paleolithic F-89+1 of the same Modern central Iraq area, to a modern central Iranian area, during Paleolithic period again. Seems a bit unsure, and confused, which seems to be the case again with this Haplogroup and its subclade P-96...??.

vettor
04-19-2019, 07:45 PM
interesting

mine below

the only purples I have is the K-M9 and north of this one....

The only issue I have is that Yfull dated the SNP at 1460BC that's 2300 years earlier than this program

https://i.postimg.cc/CK0f0S9z/snptool.png (https://postimg.cc/Wd946LNv)

only other program which places my SNP Z19945 is below in north Switzerland .................maybe I should just say the SNP is between these two programs

https://i.postimg.cc/8Cz66n6L/pylo.jpg (https://postimg.cc/v4CTRhXm)

sheepslayer
04-23-2019, 05:07 PM
This is stunning! Puts me in the Caucasus in the Bronze Age... lines up with everything I know. Thanks for showing me this!

Wing Genealogist
04-23-2019, 06:16 PM
This tool still has some glitches. For example, it tracks several of my SNPs (below L48) in the middle of the North Sea. The tool doesn't seem to have any comment/problem section to make them aware of this issue either.

vettor
04-23-2019, 06:29 PM
This tool still has some glitches. For example, it tracks several of my SNPs (below L48) in the middle of the North Sea. The tool doesn't seem to have any comment/problem section to make them aware of this issue either.

it uses ftdna results, is it in some form a proto ftdna program for later on in ftdna or is it a private person

digital_noise
04-23-2019, 07:08 PM
it uses ftdna results, is it in some form a proto ftdna program for later on in ftdna or is it a private person

pretty sure its just a guy who made the program using data from the public groups. Like all of this DNA stuff, i would take the results lightly until enough data can be amassed to achieve accuracy beyond a doubt

FionnSneachta
04-23-2019, 07:12 PM
Here's my dad's:

29987
29988
29989
29991

Robert1
04-24-2019, 05:07 AM
R1b>L21>DF13>L513>S5668>A7>S7834>S7828>BY11203>BY11186

29998

29999

30000
30001
30002

Robert1
04-24-2019, 05:09 AM
Edit

Sorry, duplicate post...

Paul333
04-24-2019, 01:48 PM
Had entered mine earlier Y H2 P96, and it showed Paleolithic mapping route to the Varna area, of Eastern Bulgaria, from F-89+1, located in modern central Iraq, moving in a North West movement to Europe, through Anatolia, to Eastern modern Bulgaria around the Varna area only.

Today entered the same again, but it is now showing only a North Eastern movement, from the original paleolithic F-89+1 of the same Modern central Iraq area, to a modern central Iranian area, during Paleolithic period again. Seems a bit unsure, and confused, which seems to be the case again with this Haplogroup and its subclade P-96...??.

Checked today and its Tracing H2 P96, route to Paleolithic Anatolia, which seems correct.

There is an added menu clicking 'show descendants' that includes wider Paleolithic descendant in the area,including Iran and Armenia.

It clearly shows a significant movement towards the Northern parts of Europe, as it is is actually showing, under its 'show descendants' movements several results during the Mesolithic, Neolithic, and, Bronze age,periods there.

These results show that H2 P96 had, and has reached as far as Sweden, Germany Poland, Switzerland, and Bulgaria it seems, with even one reference that is in the North Sea, West of Denmark ( possibly reflecting Doggerland Neolithic or other ).
,
It is a great, and fantastic tool, and well done to the producer/creater, it will help our understanding of the movement of peoples a far lot easier, and it can only improve, as more results are found and confirmed.

Dibran
04-24-2019, 02:07 PM
Neither this nor the other tool has my founder clade. I even provided links to the ISOGG assignment. This tool doesn't tell me anything new at base level.

Paul333
04-24-2019, 02:13 PM
Neither this nor the other tool has my founder clade. I even provided links to the ISOGG assignment. This tool doesn't tell me anything new at base level.

Well it seems to confirm both established routes, with modern findings, and as its a recent creation, it will be more accurate and usefull overall, we'll just have to wait for it to develop.

digital_noise
04-24-2019, 04:01 PM
Here's my dad's:

29987
29988
29989
29991

wow talk about taking the long way around. paleolithic accidental right at the fork in the road lol

digital_noise
04-24-2019, 04:03 PM
Checked today and its Tracing H2 P96, route to Paleolithic Anatolia, which seems correct.

There is an added menu clicking 'show descendants' that includes wider Paleolithic descendant in the area,including Iran and Armenia.

It clearly shows a significant movement towards the Northern parts of Europe, as it is is actually showing, under its 'show descendants' movements several results during the Mesolithic, Neolithic, and, Bronze age,periods there.

These results show that H2 P96 had, and has reached as far as Sweden, Germany Poland, Switzerland, and Bulgaria it seems, with even one reference that is in the North Sea, West of Denmark ( possibly reflecting Doggerland Neolithic or other ).
,
It is a great, and fantastic tool, and well done to the producer/creater, it will help our understanding of the movement of peoples a far lot easier, and it can only improve, as more results are found and confirmed.

I think its great also. This whole Y dna thing has me perplexed. i get the idea of it, and how SNP's mutate over time and can thus create a sort of "time stamp" but Im much better at visual comprehension and I can wrap my head around this much easier.

JMcB
04-24-2019, 04:15 PM
This tool still has some glitches. For example, it tracks several of my SNPs (below L48) in the middle of the North Sea. The tool doesn't seem to have any comment/problem section to make them aware of this issue either.


If you hit the Discussion tab, youíll find a contact button at the bottom, where you can send him an email.

Robert1
04-24-2019, 04:27 PM
wow talk about taking the long way around. paleolithic accidental right at the fork in the road lol

Blame it on the Caspian Sea? ;)

FionnSneachta
04-24-2019, 04:44 PM
wow talk about taking the long way around. paleolithic accidental right at the fork in the road lol

I was surprised by that too! It was quite detour, pretty much went backwards.

I've attached the map with descendants shown zoomed in on Europe. It's nice to have that feature. BY3439 is shown to be in the Irish Sea but it was definitely in Ireland at that stage. Although if I look at BY3439 separately, it is shown to be in Ireland. FGC6550 is a bit more uncertain since it is part of a bottleneck of 25 SNPs. Therefore, it could have been the first or last SNP formed in the bottleneck so its location of origin would be more uncertain. However, out of 40 people with the FGC6550 SNP all have an Irish ancestor except one in Wales.

30010

This is Phylogeographer Mygrations for comparison:
30011

The image is for BY3437 which is an SNP between BY3439 and FGC6550. Mygrations gives an estimate of 1650 AD, SNP Tracker 410 AD, the Big Tree 704 AD and Ian McDonald 1226 AD. In reality, BY3437 is thought to be from about the 1200s AD since we think that we know the shared ancestor.

Robert1
04-24-2019, 05:12 PM
I was surprised by that too! It was quite detour, pretty much went backwards.

I've attached the map with descendants shown zoomed in on Europe. It's nice to have that feature. BY3439 is shown to be in the Irish Sea but it was definitely in Ireland at that stage. Although if I look at BY3439 separately, it is shown to be in Ireland. FGC6550 is a bit more uncertain since it is part of a bottleneck of 25 SNPs. Therefore, it could have been the first or last SNP formed in the bottleneck so its location of origin would be more uncertain. However, out of 40 people with the FGC6550 SNP all have an Irish ancestor except one in Wales.

30010

This is Phylogeographer Mygrations for comparison:
30011

The image is for BY3437 which is an SNP between BY3439 and FGC6550. Mygrations gives an estimate of 1650 AD, SNP Tracker 410 AD, the Big Tree 704 AD and Ian McDonald 1226 AD. In reality, BY3437 is thought to be from about the 1200s AD since we think that we know the shared ancestor.

Our Y-line ancestors were lockstep for hundreds of millennia until we neared the English Channel. Then mine took the L513 fork in the road and northward to Scotland!

Anyway, I also like the zoom feature plus the check box for smoothing the SNP track.

30012

Trelvern
04-24-2019, 07:00 PM
Africa Baikal Europe


https://i.postimg.cc/tRwjFxYB/SNPTracker-map-2.png (https://postimg.cc/JtNvLt3X)

Robert1
04-24-2019, 07:14 PM
30013

Africa Baikal Europe express

Wow! I'm in there somewhere! :biggrin1:

JMcB
04-24-2019, 08:18 PM
30013

Africa Baikal Europe express

Apparently your entry into Northern Europe was explosive

spruithean
04-24-2019, 08:25 PM
Africa Baikal Europe


https://i.postimg.cc/tRwjFxYB/SNPTracker-map-2.png (https://postimg.cc/JtNvLt3X)

Lol, R1b and its explosive growth :lol:

Trelvern
04-24-2019, 08:29 PM
Apparently your entry into Northern Europe was explosive


Z304 is located in Burgundy (France)
then i select show descendants

https://i.postimg.cc/KYjkpWyP/SNP-map.png (https://postimg.cc/Lqd8nN55)

dink
04-24-2019, 08:30 PM
https://i.imgur.com/0CXZmAW.jpg

FionnSneachta
04-24-2019, 08:48 PM
Africa Baikal Europe

After seeing this, I thought that I'd look at the last one of my dad's SNPs that was in the continent which turned out to be L21 according to the map. It forms a very nice triangle! A closer SNP Z2961 oddly also forms a very nice triangle over Britain and Ireland.

30014
30015

Trelvern
04-24-2019, 08:57 PM
After seeing this, I thought that I'd look at the last one of my dad's SNPs that was in the continent which turned out to be L21 according to the map. It forms a very nice triangle! A closer SNP Z2961 oddly also forms a very nice triangle over Britain and Ireland.

30014
30015

a bunch of flowers
very nice

apparently your father lineage and mine had a similar trip
except detour by Germany

however, I do not know what's next (currently being analyzed by Yseq)

JMcB
04-24-2019, 09:52 PM
That’s a cool feature!

Here’s the expansion of I-M253 and my main branch I-Z140


30016

30028

30030

firemonkey
04-24-2019, 10:10 PM
It seems mine ends in Northern France in the Iron age 650BCE.

vettor
04-24-2019, 11:03 PM
double post

vettor
04-24-2019, 11:04 PM
interesting

mine below

the only purples I have is the K-M9 and north of this one....

The only issue I have is that Yfull dated the SNP at 1460BC that's 2300 years earlier than this program

https://i.postimg.cc/CK0f0S9z/snptool.png (https://postimg.cc/Wd946LNv)

https://i.postimg.cc/7P1yrPbR/new-snptracker.png (https://postimg.cc/xqdZK2vG)


how did you guys get the other data ?

rms2
04-24-2019, 11:05 PM
Fun to mess with, but not entirely accurate IMHO. I don't agree with the path of P297 out of eastern Anatolia/Armenia, and the map shows L21/DF13 coming up through France and crossing from there into Britain. Don't agree with that either.

It kind of strikes me as a type of SNP horoscope or Ouija board.

Robert1
04-25-2019, 12:31 AM
It gets a little crazy after DF13!

30022

spruithean
04-25-2019, 12:39 AM
Fun to mess with, but not entirely accurate IMHO. I don't agree with the path of P297 out of eastern Anatolia/Armenia, and the map shows L21/DF13 coming up through France and crossing from there into Britain. Don't agree with that either.

It kind of strikes me as a type of SNP horoscope or Ouija board.

It is approximated based on averages of self-reported origins, hence why things are in bizarre locations.

vettor
04-25-2019, 05:56 AM
It is approximated based on averages of self-reported origins, hence why things are in bizarre locations.

not sure about that
there are only 3 noted for my SNP in ftdna......NE-Italy, Hanover germany and Belgium ...................yet the SNP is placed in southern czech lands

Cofgene
04-25-2019, 11:21 AM
He's missing a couple of important points. For locations, he isn't undoing the testing bias present at FTDNA. For SNPs, the JSON that is used to get downloads from FTDNA doesn't include the number of private variants, which makes the ages poor. In principle, it's good work, it just needs to be tightened up with access to non-public data.

rms2
04-26-2019, 11:36 PM
It is approximated based on averages of self-reported origins, hence why things are in bizarre locations.

Yeah, it made crap of it apparently.

Paul333
04-28-2019, 03:17 PM
I Put another positive snp marker into it,that was given with my earlier living DNA positive 'RAW DATA' results for Y H2,' M9313' which is indicating a possible more recent downstream subclade to Y H2 P96, that of 'H2a1', its position is yet to be confirmed.

It then resulted in a complete change,?? from its earlier upstream ancestor F M89, missing out H2 P96,completely, and indicating I M170, to I M223, to I L801 onto its most recent ' Iron Age' location in North Eastern Holland/Netherlands with,'I S8522'.

On the Eupedia phylogenetic haplogroup tree 2017 or I2a2a. there is a snp marker of Y 5282 'Bronze age' ( also shown on the M 9313 snp tracker, as found in the UK, using the tools ), with a downstream snp marker of P.95, could this be related or close to the snp P.96 which was earlier informing of my terminal snp. ?

SNP S8522 references Y Haplogroup I2a1b1a2b1a1a1a, SNP 'P.95' references the very next downstream subclade of I2a1b1a2b1a1a1a1, which is co-incidental very close to my 'P.96' defining Y H2.

This is all confusing regarding the questions regarding H2 P96, along side the more recent downstream H2a1 with SNP M-9313.

The SNP H2 M9313 tracker information results do fit my earlier autosomal, plottings,including Holland Netherlands etc, but as Y H2 P.96 is very rare and there is still very little information regarding its path to Europe, it is still difficult to understand, but it is strange to have two separate snp results giving conflicting information, which is correctly my terminal snp, or do I have to wait future confirmation, or are they referencing two separate people within my ancestry ???.

Mixed
04-28-2019, 03:39 PM
I'm L260. It's common sense I should have some ancestors everywhere L260 has travelled.

michal3141
04-28-2019, 09:38 PM
My map below:

30148

Dorkymon
04-28-2019, 10:18 PM
Mine; at home since the Paleolithic B)

https://i.imgur.com/cuVrTJh.png

https://i.imgur.com/Jtq5bcE.png

Mykhailo
04-28-2019, 11:15 PM
Here is my Y-DNA:

Mykhailo
04-28-2019, 11:17 PM
Mine; at home since the Paleolithic B)

https://i.imgur.com/cuVrTJh.png

https://i.imgur.com/Jtq5bcE.png

I should get some Paleo Balkan in your new calculator? What do you think?

firemonkey
04-28-2019, 11:19 PM
Update. Now saying E-BY5234 is iron age.


30154

ATjunior1
04-29-2019, 12:17 AM
DELETED

Dorkymon
04-29-2019, 09:33 AM
I should get some Paleo Balkan in your new calculator? What do you think?

It might be eaten up by the Sclaveni component. Don't overthink it. The calculator is just experimental and with poor components.

Paul333
04-29-2019, 02:31 PM
Just checked on the FTDNA Y H, site on the H2 entries, put all the known lower Snps from P.96, and All show a significant location to Sweden, from the Neolithic/Bronze age through mostly the SNP SK1182, and its descendants spreading from there throughout Europe.

There is a single exeception and that is with one of two,' Armenian reference's the H2b1 with snp Z15373 is showing a location within 'medieval' for Turkey. The other Armenian entry with snp Z19080 is also showing Turkey/Anatolia Paleolithic, but with descendants again also reaching Sweden.

If this information proves correct, then it seems that 'Y H2' entered Neolithic or Bronze age Sweden, ( I cannot difference the two blue colours clearly ) and then spread further throughout Europe from that location via the snp SK1182.

All the other Y H2 FTDNA entries I checked with subclades downstream of P.96, other than the 'Armenian mentioned' are connected or linked directly to,or via descendants, with Neolithic or Bronze age Sweden, using the SNP tracker tool, mostly with a connection through the subclade SK1182.

This tool is opening the door for easier understanding of ancestral DNA journeys, and if the information is confirmed will be very beneficial to all, so fingers crossed.

ATjunior1
04-30-2019, 06:19 PM
30212
23andme P-P295
YFULL P*

digital_noise
04-30-2019, 07:22 PM
30212
23andme P-P295
YFULL P*

Nice, good to see some SE Asian represented

digital_noise
04-30-2019, 07:30 PM
Here's another similar site. Again, we need to take these with a grain of salt until enough data is accumulated and the science catches up

https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/

30216

Paul333
04-30-2019, 07:51 PM
That site is a bit more difficult, but the other is a bit simpler, and the FTDNA references are matching many of the Y Full references and others. It is early days yet, but some of the references, are matched with known locations.

Regarding my Y H2 haplogroup it cannot help me yet,as I have no further confirmed downstream subclades other than P.96,and I don't know if any on the Y Tree etc are relevant to myself, although it is showing descendants direct from P 96 again to Sweden etc.

The earlier SNP tracker has shown new information, such as there are descendant references directly associated with connections to and from Neolithic/Bronze age Sweden to the UK and Ireland now, for this Haplogroup, through real downstream Y H2 subclades, which have been confirmed.

This is good news for my Haplogroup Y H2, and it offers leads to follow up on. Its just a matter of time to get further knowledge, which will dissprove or confirm most of the locations and age etc.,and try to get further downstream subclades. Like you say we need the science to catch up, and hopefully it will not be too long.

ATjunior1
05-01-2019, 03:21 AM
I have seen that other site before but it is missing Ydna F, K and P

Paul333
05-01-2019, 02:30 PM
Not sure why, but it seems to be a new tool and may be still developing, I think the one SNP Tracker ( Robert Spencer ), the first posting from' digital-noise' is the better of the two, and Y 'F' seems ok on that, ive just typed F M89, and it came up OK, with millions of descendants, as it should.if clicking the descendants on the menu.... lol.

Try SNP Tracker - Scaled Innovation. into google.

digital_noise
05-01-2019, 05:04 PM
The first I believe is def. a work in progress. the author is active on the E-M35 FTDNA page and I believe he said its "evolving" or something like that. maybe I can message him and see if he wants or has time to chime in here.

The Phylogeographer is older, and honestly I have no idea about its accuracy or anything.

Regarding my subclade, it has been mentioned as of late that E-ph1246 might have something to do with Cetina culture in south Croatia (using modern borders as a reference), and that certainly shows on the newer SNP tracker tool, although we must wait for older samples to be found to confirm this. The Phylogeographer map shows my subclade landing in Greece, which also could be a possibility as the end location on my Y side is southern Italy, on the shores of the Ionian sea where Magna Graecia popped up

Paul333
05-01-2019, 05:14 PM
The first I believe is def. a work in progress. the author is active on the E-M35 FTDNA page and I believe he said its "evolving" or something like that. maybe I can message him and see if he wants or has time to chime in here.

The Phylogeographer is older, and honestly I have no idea about its accuracy or anything.

Regarding my subclade, it has been mentioned as of late that E-ph1246 might have something to do with Cetina culture in south Croatia (using modern borders as a reference), and that certainly shows on the newer SNP tracker tool, although we must wait for older samples to be found to confirm this. The Phylogeographer map shows my subclade landing in Greece, which also could be a possibility as the end location on my Y side is southern Italy, on the shores of the Ionian sea where Magna Graecia popped up

Well Ive been stuck a while with Y H2 P96, and a lack of information. The snp tracker has shown P96 descendants reaching the same area's as the FTDNA H2 subclades so its certainly helped with progress for me, and hopefully it can only get better.

vettor
05-02-2019, 05:07 AM
my mother's ydna
R1b-S8172

https://i.postimg.cc/9Mjc03Np/mums-ydna.png (https://postimg.cc/p9kwcSvh)

Darko
05-02-2019, 03:52 PM
MY Y-DNA R-YP1276

30248

aaronbee2010
05-02-2019, 07:39 PM
Father:

https://i.gyazo.com/1991df993ff61d10cd0d4a7cbbcdc6d0.png
https://i.gyazo.com/5638e3b8e213e728d2fc1c11cc8b6a68.png

Maternal Uncle:

https://i.gyazo.com/4e695d5914044b757591c0245bd0f0af.png
https://i.gyazo.com/ace1a70990d05cc7b2c314810e20c9c9.png

Not sure I find the dates that convincing.

digital_noise
05-02-2019, 08:24 PM
My father in law. Not very detailed as we got his haplogroup from 23 and me

30250

aaronbee2010
05-02-2019, 08:48 PM
My father in law. Not very detailed as we got his haplogroup from 23 and me

30250

Have you tried MorleyDNA.com? He may have been tested positive for a downstream SNP, like M317 for example.

digital_noise
05-03-2019, 02:28 AM
Have you tried MorleyDNA.com? He may have been tested positive for a downstream SNP, like M317 for example.

yes, just says L-M22 (L-M295). YFull has tmrca at 18,000 YBP lol

digital_noise
05-07-2019, 06:37 PM
Looks like there has been some updates to the tracker tool. There is now some sort of path check box that makes a slider scale appear and you can drag the slider around and it shows a little icon along with other types of events occurring nearby.
30318
30319

Paul333
05-07-2019, 10:25 PM
Looks like there has been some updates to the tracker tool. There is now some sort of path check box that makes a slider scale appear and you can drag the slider around and it shows a little icon along with other types of events occurring nearby.
30318
30319

Or press play, and watch the journey from 'A' first origin, through a time scaled location to your snp. The skull and crossbones are reflecting Plague area's. This is a great tool, and very user friendly.

rkenobi
05-13-2019, 11:03 PM
Greetings -- I'm the author of SNPTracker and happy to answer any questions. Since these posts I've imported all the dates from YFull (and have interpolated to assign dates to the entire FTDNA Y Tree). Most pre-Roman SNP locations will be "pinned" to archaeological locations, and recent SNPs are localized by a weighted average of user-assigned paternal ancestor nationality (with all of the error that implies). mtDNA is also included now.

timberwolf
05-13-2019, 11:21 PM
Greetings -- I'm the author of SNPTracker and happy to answer any questions. Since these posts I've imported all the dates from YFull (and have interpolated to assign dates to the entire FTDNA Y Tree). Most pre-Roman SNP locations will be "pinned" to archaeological locations, and recent SNPs are localized by a weighted average of user-assigned paternal ancestor nationality (with all of the error that implies). mtDNA is also included now.

Thanks for all your good work.

Are you including private mutations in your calculations for dating haplogroups?

rms2
05-14-2019, 02:36 AM
The SNP Tracker Tool is kind of fun, like reading one's horoscope or having one's palm read, but it isn't too accurate. Sorry to be critical, but it gets R1b wrong big time.

30408

spruithean
05-14-2019, 03:29 AM
It seems fairly accurate for my branch as of right now.

Here is both JMcB and my own branches of A13241 in Europe:

30409

Even the age estimation (380 AD) for A14097 is fairly accurate in relation to what the Z140 admin had calculated.

JMcB
05-14-2019, 04:02 AM
It seems fairly accurate for my branch as of right now.

Here is both JMcB and my own branches of A13241 in Europe:

30409

Even the age estimation (380 AD) for A14097 is fairly accurate in relation to what the Z140 admin had calculated.

It was actually better in my case when it was first rolled out. Now he seems to have folded Y7198 into BY31666 and consequently is giving A13248, Y7198’s Roman date. Instead of it’s own medieval date of 900 AD, which he correctly had before. Assuming he’s following YFull’s dating, as he seems to imply. Nevertheless, considering the task he’s taken on for himself, I would also say he’s done a reasonably nice job in our area of the tree.

timberwolf
05-14-2019, 04:16 AM
It was actually better in my case when it was first rolled out. Now he seems to have folded Y7198 into BY31666 and consequently is giving A13248, Y7198’s Roman date. Instead of it’s own medieval date of 900 AD, which he correctly had before. Assuming he’s following YFull’s dating, as he seems to imply. Nevertheless, considering the task he’s taken on for himself, I would also say he’s done a reasonably nice job in our area of the tree.

What is your thoughts on Yfull's MtDNA tree and its estimation of dates?

spruithean
05-14-2019, 10:05 AM
It was actually better in my case when it was first rolled out. Now he seems to have folded Y7198 into BY31666 and consequently is giving A13248, Y7198’s Roman date. Instead of it’s own medieval date of 900 AD, which he correctly had before. Assuming he’s following YFull’s dating, as he seems to imply. Nevertheless, considering the task he’s taken on for himself, I would also say he’s done a reasonably nice job in our area of the tree.

Interesting, I'm sure over time with some tweaking and new data things might even out. This is certainly a big task, however the A13241 part of the I1 tree is quite sparse and not as massive as R1b :lol:

I'm not necessarily sold on origins in Britain for these Y7198 branches, we still lack a good amount of continental and insular samples overall.

rkenobi
05-14-2019, 12:51 PM
The FTDNA Y Tree available data does not include private SNPs. The first version of SNP Tracker used dates calculated from the Y Tree data, but many had systematic errors for this reason. So I took the entire YFull dataset and mapped it to the Y Tree; about 30% of the Y Tree SNPs have YFull counterparts with dates, so with that I've interpolated the entire Y Tree. And since YFull uses private SNPs, my dates do too.

rkenobi
05-14-2019, 12:57 PM
I update the data every month (Y and mt in their entirety), which will cause near-terminal SNPs to bounce around.

JMcB
05-14-2019, 03:38 PM
Interesting, I'm sure over time with some tweaking and new data things might even out. This is certainly a big task, however the A13241 part of the I1 tree is quite sparse and not as massive as R1b :lol:

I'm not necessarily sold on origins in Britain for these Y7198 branches, we still lack a good amount of continental and insular samples overall.

Time will tell. Unfortunately, we can only go by what we have and at this point, we still need a lot more German, French & Danish testers, among others. However, as it stands now, I’m inclined to agree with Hartley. Especially, as my subclades seem to be bearing him out. Not to mention Nordtvedt, who basically gave me the same analysis. On the other hand, if the evidence changes, so will I.

firemonkey
05-14-2019, 04:21 PM
Unfortunately it doesn't cover my maternal and paternal hgs as given by Yfull. FTDNA being a step behind that.

vettor
05-14-2019, 05:32 PM
The FTDNA Y Tree available data does not include private SNPs. The first version of SNP Tracker used dates calculated from the Y Tree data, but many had systematic errors for this reason. So I took the entire YFull dataset and mapped it to the Y Tree; about 30% of the Y Tree SNPs have YFull counterparts with dates, so with that I've interpolated the entire Y Tree. And since YFull uses private SNPs, my dates do too.

Thanks
my map has had its 3rd change, with the 3rd map resembling more the 1st map , would this be due to Yfull tree?

Also what does the anchor mean

Wing Genealogist
05-14-2019, 06:05 PM
... Also what does the anchor mean

The anchor means the creator of the site has "anchored" the location for the clade based on scientific papers (primarily ancient DNA remains) rather than the FTDNA database. This helps off-set the "Anglo" bias of the FTDNA database.

Whether or not these locations are accurate is separate issue. For example, he has anchored U106 to be in Germany. The earliest U106 ancient DNA remains are at the Southern Tip of Sweden (RISE98) with other early U106+ results found near Prague and in Holland. I am not saying his placement in Germany is wrong. Rather I am saying we simply don't have enough data to confidently anchor its origins to ANY location.

I do understand WHY he has decided to anchor the major SNPs as he has done. Even the creator has posted where these dots should not be treated as definitive.

vettor
05-14-2019, 06:30 PM
The anchor means the creator of the site has "anchored" the location for the clade based on scientific papers (primarily ancient DNA remains) rather than the FTDNA database. This helps off-set the "Anglo" bias of the FTDNA database.

Whether or not these locations are accurate is separate issue. For example, he has anchored U106 to be in Germany. The earliest U106 ancient DNA remains are at the Southern Tip of Sweden (RISE98) with other early U106+ results found near Prague and in Holland. I am not saying his placement in Germany is wrong. Rather I am saying we simply don't have enough data to confidently anchor its origins to ANY location.

I do understand WHY he has decided to anchor the major SNPs as he has done. Even the creator has posted where these dots should not be treated as definitive.

thank you

The anchor for my line I was asking about was for SNP L490 ...........a clade/marker that ISOGG could not place or decide on for over 4 years, at one stage it was "private"

as an example https://isogg.org/tree/2014/ISOGG_HapgrpT14.html

JMcB
05-14-2019, 06:30 PM
What is your thoughts on Yfull's MtDNA tree and its estimation of dates?

YFull is still working on the algorithm for the mtDNA tree, so the dates were jumping around a lot. From what I’ve heard, they’ve now removed all of the dates until they’re finished, because it was confusing some of their customers.

dosas
05-14-2019, 06:39 PM
The website doesn't seem to include my Ytree's R-Y155609. Is that because the FTDNA doesn't reflect this but stays at R-A12332?

Theconqueror
05-14-2019, 11:32 PM
Greetings -- I'm the author of SNPTracker and happy to answer any questions. Since these posts I've imported all the dates from YFull (and have interpolated to assign dates to the entire FTDNA Y Tree). Most pre-Roman SNP locations will be "pinned" to archaeological locations, and recent SNPs are localized by a weighted average of user-assigned paternal ancestor nationality (with all of the error that implies). mtDNA is also included now.

I noticed that some descendants for R1B-DF99 were assigned to iron age and medieval individuals in Germany on the map. The only ancient DF99 I am aware of is the Lombard CL94. Am I missing something or is this actual new information about DF99? Thanks for this great tool.

Titane
05-15-2019, 12:14 PM
The tool seems to be unstable at the moment. For example, sometimes the path shown does not end or include the end point. I tried some random names: example Leslie did this.

What happens when there are several endpoints for the same surname?

Theconqueror
05-15-2019, 12:30 PM
My question: how do we interpret the colours dots from checking the descendants box? Are these actual ancient or modern samples?

After looking at the data again, I believe the era of the end snps is calculated/derived and the location averaged based on modern carriers of those snps. The map makes it look like there are actual samples from these eras carrying those snps.

rkenobi
05-15-2019, 04:43 PM
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184 which says "T-L206 [ = L490] – the numerically dominant primary branch of T-M184 – appears to have originated in Western Asia, possibly somewhere between northeastern Anatolia and the Zagros Mountains". Also the major subclade looks to have been among the early Anatolian who brought agriculture to Europe. Put those together, try to avoid backtracking, and you get the placements in SE Anatolia. Of course it's just an educated guess, as are most of these placements. But the alternative is to depend only on modern user ancestor reporting which is considerably less reliable.

rkenobi
05-15-2019, 04:44 PM
It just shows several dots, one for each endpoint for that surname. Read the documentation, including under the "notes" button on the SNP tab.

rkenobi
05-15-2019, 04:48 PM
The map shows whatever shows in the FTDNA Y Tree for that SNP, and the dates are all from YFull.

rkenobi
05-15-2019, 04:50 PM
There are no ancient samples, just the ancestry reported by modern DNA testers.

rkenobi
05-15-2019, 04:51 PM
correct

rkenobi
05-15-2019, 05:02 PM
Author here: first, I use dates interpolated from YFull which does include private variants. If and when the FTDNA JSON includes better dates, I'll use those. Also I do try to remove testing bias (how can you assert otherwise without seeing the code?): for every SNP I calculate the location as if it had a random assortment of ancestor assignments, and subtract that -- the residual is usually much better without the massive Anglo-Irish testing bias.

rkenobi
05-15-2019, 05:03 PM
Read the documentation -- the North Sea just means that it's averaging a Swede and a Scot (etc). And there's a button to contact the author...

rkenobi
05-15-2019, 05:07 PM
That's because R-Y133383 isn't in the FTDNA Y Tree. If and when it appears there, it will appear on the map.

rkenobi
05-15-2019, 05:15 PM
How about a constructive post -- if you have documentation for alternative locations for any particular SNP, that would be very helpful. The L21 mutation occurred very close to the time of the Beaker invasion of Britain, and long after the disappearance of Doggerland, so I placed it near the closest water passage.

vettor
05-15-2019, 05:44 PM
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184 which says "T-L206 [ = L490] Ė the numerically dominant primary branch of T-M184 Ė appears to have originated in Western Asia, possibly somewhere between northeastern Anatolia and the Zagros Mountains". Also the major subclade looks to have been among the early Anatolian who brought agriculture to Europe. Put those together, try to avoid backtracking, and you get the placements in SE Anatolia. Of course it's just an educated guess, as are most of these placements. But the alternative is to depend only on modern user ancestor reporting which is considerably less reliable.

SInce T split from LT haplogroup , and many ancient L are found in north caucasus to dagestan, does it one not assume that T should then be in a similar area initially ?
Then again LT come be South caucasus........maybe part of Kura-Araxes
Black sea water level was lower, it would be very very green and wide between the fresh water sea and the mountains .

Dewsloth
05-15-2019, 06:53 PM
How about a constructive post -- if you have documentation for alternative locations for any particular SNP, that would be very helpful. The L21 mutation occurred very close to the time of the Beaker invasion of Britain, and long after the disappearance of Doggerland, so I placed it near the closest water passage.

The Z43166 individual used Strassbourg, France for his MDKA, but that "MDKA's" dad was from Breitscheid, Germany - very close to the other subclade-mates.
It's one of those little details that bugs me to no end, but I have never been able to contact him (he's one of my closest matches in the DF19 FTDNA group).
https://www.geni.com/people/Johan-Jost-Petrie-1689/6000000008682792759

FionnSneachta
05-15-2019, 07:45 PM
YFull is still working on the algorithm for the mtDNA tree, so the dates were jumping around a lot. From what Iíve heard, theyíve now removed all of the dates until theyíre finished, because it was confusing some of their customers.

I hadn't actually noticed that since I look at Mt matches rather than the tree. They still display the dates for the matches. My own haplogroup is currently estimated at 425 ybp while my dad's is 1250 ybp. I can understand why they'd remove them if lots of people were sending queries about the dates but I would be disappointed if I couldn't see the dates for my matches anymore.

JMcB
05-15-2019, 09:40 PM
I hadn't actually noticed that since I look at Mt matches rather than the tree. They still display the dates for the matches. My own haplogroup is currently estimated at 425 ybp while my dad's is 1250 ybp. I can understand why they'd remove them if lots of people were sending queries about the dates but I would be disappointed if I couldn't see the dates for my matches anymore.

I can certainly understand that as I like seeing the dates myself. Fortunately, they seem to be leaving them in place on the match list and from what I’ve read on their Facebook page - from a second hand source - they’re working on the algorithm and plan to release a White Paper once they’re done. Although, I should note again, that this doesn’t come from an official announcement by YFull but from a regular commenter on their site.

timberwolf
05-15-2019, 10:09 PM
I can certainly understand that as I like seeing the dates myself. Fortunately, they seem to be leaving them in place on the match list and from what I’ve read on their Facebook page - from a second hand source - they’re working on the algorithm and plan to release a White Paper once they’re done. Although, I should note again, that this doesn’t come from an official announcement by YFull but from a regular commenter on their site.

It is the dates added, that is the most useful element of their MtDNa tree. It is all well and good having matches, but if you don't when they date too, it defeats the purpose.

looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

vettor
05-15-2019, 11:51 PM
Just to advise
I ran the tracker on my mtdna and it came out as eastern alps.....that is fine
I have 4 x eastern alps connections either italian or austrian
I did have 5 x swedes as well, but one swede contacted me lest week and said her line was from bolzano up to 1950.

https://i.postimg.cc/xdc4jBht/path-of-h95a.png (https://postimages.org/)


Interesting that my gramdfather mtdna T1a1e is in sweden
And my father mtdna T2b17 is on the rhine river area...central

spruithean
05-16-2019, 03:41 AM
It seems fairly accurate for my branch as of right now.

Here is both JMcB and my own branches of A13241 in Europe:

30409

Even the age estimation (380 AD) for A14097 is fairly accurate in relation to what the Z140 admin had calculated.

I wanted to see what this tool could produce when I entered everything under the I-A13241 node on FTDNA's block tree.

30444

Pretty interesting.

Paul333
05-26-2019, 07:34 PM
Hello, rkenobi

Help Im a bit confused again.

I have a positive snp marker M9313, I was given by LivingDNa, there is another lad on this forum that also is positive for the same marker, suggesting it points to a lower downstream subclade of our Y H2, P96, haplogroup that of 'Y' H2a1, as he was informed.

This then would suggest a more recent terminal subclade if confirmed, as it would be further downstream of Y H2, P 96. ? any further news, or information available, regarding this SNP M9313, and its associated Haplogroup, would be very usefull.

It is confusing as when I entered it M9313, into your SNP Tracker, it is representing a completely different Y Haplogroup, that of 'I' S8522, located in the Roman period in the Netherlands.

I checked with the Y 'I' haplogroup tree on Eupedia and the snps indicate other snps predating this, downstream of the I2a2a, L801 branch, with snps Y4946, and Y5282, both located in England during the Bronze age. The journey highlighted on your tracker tool to and from England back to the Netherlands, with descendants showing, one in the North Sea area, and Im aware of its meaning, through reading your earlier posts.

Strangely when I also enter the Y H2 snp 'P96', into your tracker tool, its also shows its descendants path much the same as the snp M9313 journey, ie, to both the Netherlands and England, albeit during an earlier phase. ? possibly bell beaker's entering and leaving the area's of England, during the very early Bronze age.

Then strangely again, if I place 'snp P95', into it. it confirms exactly the 'M9313' Y 'I2a2' I-S8522 journey, also with a further journey into Germany, during the Roman period ????? This is strange.

I also noticed, that many of the SNPs specific of Y H2 branches on FTDNA Y H tree, that you earlier routed to,along with descendants to Northern European area's mainly Sweden etc have now been completely removed, and relocated, since 10th May 2019.

What is going on with SNP M9313,?? and why the relocation of the Y H2 subclade snps, are they now correct and final.

rkenobi
05-31-2019, 07:51 PM
This is a SNP naming problem. H-M9313 is listed neither in YFull nor in FTDNA's Y Tree --- and as my documentation says, the SNP Tracker uses FTDNA nomenclature. There is a SNP I-M9313 which will show if you type just M9313, and of course everything about I-M9313 is irrelevant to you. Based on the ISOGG 2018 Y Tree, H-M9313 seems to be the same as FTDNA's H-Z19080, though there is an inconsistency between the two trees. In any case, this SNP was formed somewhere between 16,000 and 34,000 years ago -- definitely paleolithic. As such, any attempt to localize it based on modern testers' reported ancestry makes no sense. As far as I can see, Living DNA does not make its Y tree accessible, which means you may struggle to learn from the majority of testers who use different trees.

Dewsloth
05-31-2019, 09:02 PM
I wanted to see what this tool could produce when I entered everything under the I-A13241 node on FTDNA's block tree.

30444

Pretty interesting.

Cool. I tried having it plot the descendants of one of the larger DF19 subclade nodes:

30696

Now mind you, I don't think they all went to Britain first. It wouldn't surprise me if Mr. Z17112 lived in the Low Countries or Germany, with many of his descendants crossing the Channel, later.
There sure are a bunch of his subclades with epicenters in the North Sea...

Edit -- Here's how it plot DF19 and descendants:

30697

JMcB
06-01-2019, 06:35 PM
I wanted to see what this tool could produce when I entered everything under the I-A13241 node on FTDNA's block tree.

30444

Pretty interesting.

It is an interesting tool!

For the fun of it, I added into his format all of the subclades I know of under I-Y7198. I ran his tool up to I-F2735 and then did the rest myself. Relying on the conversations I’ve had with the participants and using the geographical and dating information found on FT & YFull. With the exception of I-Y7198 - with I left at the Trackers default formation date - the coloring is based on YFull’s TMRCA dates. Plus, some calculations I’ve done on my own, based on my Novel Variant matches and some other information I’ve gotten from William. Needless to say, I didn’t have a lot of space, so the placements are approximate. Let me know if you see any mistakes.

30708

spruithean
06-01-2019, 06:53 PM
It is an interesting tool!

For the fun of it, I added into his format all of the subclades I know of under I-Y7198. I ran his tool up to I-F2735 and then did the rest myself. Relying on the conversations I’ve had with the participants and using the geographical and dating information found on FT & YFull. With the exception of I-Y7198 - with I left at the Trackers default formation date - the coloring is based on YFull’s TMRCA dates. Plus, some calculations I’ve done on my own, based on my Novel Variant matches and some other information I’ve gotten from William. Needless to say, I didn’t have a lot of space, so the placements are approximate. Let me know if you see any mistakes.

30708

That looks really good! I know that the SNP tracker estimate for A14097 formation is Iron Age, however Hartley had calculated 150-300 AD and YFull estimates 1750 ybp, so 250 AD give or take (although, YFull is still missing my entry to split up the tree there due to my tardiness), so that fits with the Roman period.

It certainly makes you wonder where Y1798 (and A13241) originated...

JMcB
06-01-2019, 08:01 PM
That looks really good! I know that the SNP tracker estimate for A14097 formation is Iron Age, however Hartley had calculated 150-300 AD and YFull estimates 1750 ybp, so 250 AD give or take (although, YFull is still missing my entry to split up the tree there due to my tardiness), so that fits with the Roman period.

It certainly makes you wonder where Y1798 (and A13241) originated...

After originally starting out by calculating his own dates, the fellow who runs the SNP Tracker switched to using the formation (not the TMRCA) dates because he was having trouble getting all of the data he needed. That’s why he has you in the Iron Age. He also has I-Y7198 in the Bronze Age, instead of the Roman era, for the same reason. Of course, your sample would help YFull to split your (A14094) branch but I’m not sure how much of an effect it would have on their dating. Unfortunately, that area is already behind because Dan, after initially sending in his CSV file, never sent in his Bam File. So YFull is only using Eugene in their dating calculations. Which may have a greater impact, as were now talking about two people, not just one.

To be honest, I don’t know where Y7198 originated. I believe William thinks it British in origins but it’s probably too early to say for sure. My branch (A13248) appears to have formed in Britain and then quickly split into four subclades. So that would seem to fit with his interpretation. On the other hand, we need a lot more results and I wouldn’t be surprised if it started showing up on the Continent, too. We already have one branch (F2735) there already. Although, that could also be a back migration. As William says, a work in progress.

Trelvern
06-03-2019, 08:09 PM
It is an interesting tool!

For the fun of it, I added into his format all of the subclades I know of under I-Y7198. I ran his tool up to I-F2735 and then did the rest myself. Relying on the conversations Iíve had with the participants and using the geographical and dating information found on FT & YFull. With the exception of I-Y7198 - with I left at the Trackers default formation date - the coloring is based on YFullís TMRCA dates. Plus, some calculations Iíve done on my own, based on my Novel Variant matches and some other information Iíve gotten from William. Needless to say, I didnít have a lot of space, so the placements are approximate. Let me know if you see any mistakes.

30708

Do you know this another one?
https://phylogeographer.com/

3075830759

Some differences .
According specialists of U106 interesting for fun but scientifically not accurate .

JMcB
06-03-2019, 08:45 PM
Do you know this another one?
https://phylogeographer.com/

3075830759

Some differences .
According specialists of U106 interesting for fun but scientifically not accurate .

Yes, I do. Unfortunately, his site doesnít work very well, whenever I try to use it. Perhaps, because Iím using an iPad. When I am able to get the results, theyíre comparable but in my case, itís too much of a hassle to use his site. And as you said, either way theyíre just approximations.

spruithean
06-03-2019, 08:50 PM
Yes, I do. Unfortunately, his site doesn’t work very well, whenever I try to use it. Perhaps, because I’m using an iPad. When I am able to get the results, they’re comparable but in my case, it’s too much of a hassle to use his site. And as you said, either way they’re just approximations.

It's definitely a result of being on a mobile device. Provyn's phylogeographer works well on a computer in my experience.

JMcB
06-03-2019, 09:39 PM
It's definitely a result of being on a mobile device. Provyn's phylogeographer works well on a computer in my experience.

I suspect your right. The funny thing is, it used to work fine when he first started out but something changed a while back and now it’s become more of a problem. Fortunately, I was able to play around with it before any of that happened.

Nevertheless, I’m thankful for all of the efforts he’s put into it!

Trelvern
06-04-2019, 04:34 AM
Finally i am BY650 (linked to Unetice culture 4000 years ago)
SNP origin date (date SNP itself formed) 1022 BC (1490 BC - 219 BC) Last Bronze age/Iron age.

All known descendants negative.

30765)

BY650 is unknown in phylogeographer.

JMcB
06-04-2019, 01:34 PM
Finally i am BY650 (linked to Unetice culture 4000 years ago)
SNP origin date (date SNP itself formed) 1022 BC (1490 BC - 219 BC) Last Bronze age/Iron age.

All known descendants negative.

30765)

BY650 is unknown in phylogeographer.

Have you submitted your results to YFull because that’s where Hunter gets most of his data?


PhyloGeographer is a data-driven method for objectively computing migration paths of paternal lineages.

The algorithm takes YFull samples and tree as input, along with additional modern and ancient samples from each haplogroup.

What it Does Now

Computes migration paths of Y haplogroups from a set of geolocated samples

Overlays computed migration on top of a map of Archaeological Horizons

Incorporates ancient DNA samples from most haplogroups, which are weighted more by the algorithm

Regularly updated from YFull's tree to stay current


Edit: No sooner do I say it isn’t working and it’s starts working just fine.


30770

I see he’s adding the sample numbers now.

30771

spruithean
06-04-2019, 01:49 PM
Edit: No sooner do I say it isn’t working and it’s starts working just fine.


30770

I see he’s adding the sample numbers now.

30771

It heard you talking about it!

Yeah, both tools are interesting, and there are some useful articles on PhyloGeographer that are interesting reads. There is one article about I-Z140 subclades in the Azores.

Trelvern
06-04-2019, 04:18 PM
Have you submitted your results to YFull because that’s where Hunter gets most of his data?


PhyloGeographer is a data-driven method for objectively computing migration paths of paternal lineages.

The algorithm takes YFull samples and tree as input, along with additional modern and ancient samples from each haplogroup.

What it Does Now

Computes migration paths of Y haplogroups from a set of geolocated samples

Overlays computed migration on top of a map of Archaeological Horizons

Incorporates ancient DNA samples from most haplogroups, which are weighted more by the algorithm

Regularly updated from YFull's tree to stay current


Edit: No sooner do I say it isn’t working and it’s starts working just fine.


30770

I see he’s adding the sample numbers now.

30771

How to submit the results to YFull?
They ignore BY650 (very small :a dozen of testers maybe) and S1894 (small clade)
I am in touch with Iain McDonald who is the specialist of U106 (Yahoo group)

JMcB
06-04-2019, 06:31 PM
How to submit the results to YFull?
They ignore BY650 (very small :a dozen of testers maybe) and S1894 (small clade)
I am in touch with Iain McDonald who is the specialist of U106 (Yahoo group)

In your case, there’s no need to, as you already have an expert who analyzes your Haplogroup. I just mentioned it because Hunter uses YFull’s tree to run his PhyloGeographer website.

Tz85
06-04-2019, 11:31 PM
Here's mine....

Tz85
06-04-2019, 11:35 PM
Here's my MTDNA I5a...

Theconqueror
06-05-2019, 02:57 PM
Finally i am BY650 (linked to Unetice culture 4000 years ago)
SNP origin date (date SNP itself formed) 1022 BC (1490 BC - 219 BC) Last Bronze age/Iron age.

All known descendants negative.

30765)

BY650 is unknown in phylogeographer.

This is cool. However, what I don't understand of this SNP Tracker is how can a specific upstream SNP such as L151 displays in various locations depending on the downstream SNPs. For instance, L151 will display much southern if I plot DF99. Any clue?

Agamemnon
06-09-2019, 07:30 PM
I can understand placing Z18271 and its descendants in Europe (even though Z18271 in all likeliness originated in the Levant) going off the contemporary data, I'm not sure what warrants placing lineages like P58 and L862 in the Balkans and Central Anatolia though:

https://i.imgur.com/MJ3jFYH.png
https://i.imgur.com/FEzcPCq.png

The placement of L389, P297 and M269 is also untenable IMO especially if we take the ancient genomic evidence into account (using U152 here as my maternal grandfather was U152):

https://i.imgur.com/02U3DS0.png

The mtDNA maps are fairly accurate though, here's J1c5 for instance (followed by U7a5, my father's mtDNA lineage):

https://i.imgur.com/h1NcMH4.png
https://i.imgur.com/OyvZmdc.png

The estimates are way off by the way (especially for the Y-Chromosomal TMRCAs).

vettor
06-09-2019, 09:38 PM
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184 which says "T-L206 [ = L490] – the numerically dominant primary branch of T-M184 – appears to have originated in Western Asia, possibly somewhere between northeastern Anatolia and the Zagros Mountains". Also the major subclade looks to have been among the early Anatolian who brought agriculture to Europe. Put those together, try to avoid backtracking, and you get the placements in SE Anatolia. Of course it's just an educated guess, as are most of these placements. But the alternative is to depend only on modern user ancestor reporting which is considerably less reliable.

I have L490+ since first tested in 2013 ...........it was unplaced and unknown then for a few years and then stated later as North Caucasus mountain range
I have many notes with Ftdna project managers in regards to this SNP
at best, my theory is that it went into western europe by hugging both sides of the black sea

rkenobi
06-13-2019, 10:06 PM
The Y SNP dates aren't TMRCAs but rather the founding dates, according to YFull. That's because only the founding dates are calculated (based on downstream SNP counts), while a TMRCAs is just the founding date of the first child clade. When populations are growing quickly they're nearly the same, and in times of famine or disruption they can be thousands of years apart.

Trelvern
07-03-2019, 07:33 AM
New path to BY650 (recent update)

OLD (june)31423


NEW (july)3142431425


Old version:bronze age
New:iron age, medieval and modern

Trelvern
10-12-2019, 11:34 AM
New feature

click on : show by county
then map option : percent , total

1/total
33838

2/percent
33837

FionnSneachta
10-19-2019, 11:21 AM
New feature

click on : show by county
then map option : percent , total

1/total
33838

2/percent
33837

I'm not sure that I follow this. When I put in my dad's terminal SNP, it shows a few counties in Ireland and Britain. However, there's only two others with this SNP. If it's been done purely by surnames associated with the SNP, the map also doesn't correlate with where I'd expect to see the highest percentage based on other maps as provided by John Grenham and Forebears.

Paul333
12-18-2019, 07:29 PM
The SNP Tracker tool has now removed all references to European Y H2 P96, and any evidence of its historic presence there.....?? I wonder Why.

Geo Tracker
08-22-2020, 09:34 PM
Paul,

I am running several Y700 test in the US and UK for this Haplogroup:

Boyt: SNP Tree
Updated from F-M89 to: H-L901 H-P96 H-Z19080 H-SK1180 H-SK1182 H-Y20839 H-BY37188 H-BY37194





When I get the age on SNP Tracker for the most recent one BY37194 it show 83 years before present, that I understand. Then it shows 260% confidence, that sounds good, I think? and 1900CE. Is the 83-1900CE a date range?

Researching this line on the Isle of Purbeck, Dorset (home of ancient stone workers/marblers back to Saxon time and before): https://pbase.com/daveb/purbeck

Paul333
08-26-2020, 12:25 AM
Paul,

I am running several Y700 test in the US and UK for this Haplogroup:

Boyt: SNP Tree
Updated from F-M89 to: H-L901 H-P96 H-Z19080 H-SK1180 H-SK1182 H-Y20839 H-BY37188 H-BY37194





When I get the age on SNP Tracker for the most recent one BY37194 it show 83 years before present, that I understand. Then it shows 260% confidence, that sounds good, I think? and 1900CE. Is the 83-1900CE a date range?

Researching this line on the Isle of Purbeck, Dorset (home of ancient stone workers/marblers back to Saxon time and before): https://pbase.com/daveb/purbeck

Hi Geo Tracker,
I see the Boyd etc references on the FTDNA Y H Project, and I wish you luck with your big Y 700 tests. I see the results on the SNP Tracker, but it quite often changes, or updates.

There has been a few references regarding Y H2 in Europe recently,including Ireland where Y H2a1, was found in high status burial mounds mentioned on the Eurogenes Blog.

There are a few separate subclade's within the Y H2 P96 now, and its beginning to branch out, and show seperate groups within Y H2 P96 Haplogroup tree.

Boyd is in fact a Scottish surname, but the others, Boyatt,Boyett,and Boyt seem to have more of a french ring about them, but they may all also stem from Boyd, as they seem to be related by the YH2 haplogroup, and having a lot of common STR, markers.

Regarding progress, Its just a frustrating waiting game, but Eurogenes has indicated there are Ancient European papers due out soon, so fingers crossed.

Geo Tracker
08-26-2020, 03:11 AM
Thank you Paul333, our current research has focused on the early Boyte families on the ancient Isle of Purbeck along the English Channel. All of our UK members are from this area. We have located Boyte records dating back to the 1400's and they were stone workers known as "Marblers" with unique customs and currency in the area of Corfe Castle and Swanage. The "Order of Marblers" have history back to Roman and Saxon times (mining the Purbeck Marble) and some records of the order indicate that many workers were Phoenicians. Some artifacts have been located in both Cornwell and Dorset coastal areas that could support trade of tin, clay and coal ("coal money") with the Phoenicians. Just need to find some of that H2 in the ancient remains, but more likely to find only mtDNA. Purbeck's geography made it very issolated from the rest of England and most contact with the outside was along the coast. Allied families by marriage were Haviland and Cockram/Cockerham and maybe Pitt. The marble was shipped from areas near Swanage to larger ports such as Poole. The original name appears to be Boyt/e with the other spellings much later in areas outside Purbeck. The Y500-Y700 testing has certainly moved us very quickly from F-M89 to: H-L901 H-P96 H-Z19080 H-SK1180 H-SK1182 H-Y20839 H-BY37188 H-BY37194 and other changes are certain to occur as we do more Y700 testing.

Paul333
08-26-2020, 11:52 AM
Thank you Paul333, our current research has focused on the early Boyte families on the ancient Isle of Purbeck along the English Channel. All of our UK members are from this area. We have located Boyte records dating back to the 1400's and they were stone workers known as "Marblers" with unique customs and currency in the area of Corfe Castle and Swanage. The "Order of Marblers" have history back to Roman and Saxon times (mining the Purbeck Marble) and some records of the order indicate that many workers were Phoenicians. Some artifacts have been located in both Cornwell and Dorset coastal areas that could support trade of tin, clay and coal ("coal money") with the Phoenicians. Just need to find some of that H2 in the ancient remains, but more likely to find only mtDNA. Purbeck's geography made it very issolated from the rest of England and most contact with the outside was along the coast. Allied families by marriage were Haviland and Cockram/Cockerham and maybe Pitt. The marble was shipped from areas near Swanage to larger ports such as Poole. The original name appears to be Boyt/e with the other spellings much later in areas outside Purbeck. The Y500-Y700 testing has certainly moved us very quickly from F-M89 to: H-L901 H-P96 H-Z19080 H-SK1180 H-SK1182 H-Y20839 H-BY37188 H-BY37194 and other changes are certain to occur as we do more Y700 testing.

I know the area very well, I spent some time at Bovington camp, and often visited Lulworth Cove, Swanage,etc, even done a bit of sailing there, beautifull part of the South coast.

Geo Tracker
08-26-2020, 12:54 PM
A lot of history in that area. The camp is only two miles from the home town of Wool, one of our tested families.

Geo Tracker
08-26-2020, 01:02 PM
One of the ancient Purbeck boundaries was the River Frome located between Camp Bovington and Wool. Map of 1645: https://pbase.com/daveb/image/170707653

Gwydion
02-27-2021, 10:22 PM
My path is peculiar considering my Y-DNA and my closest matches are from Northwest England into Southwest Scotland and Ireland. What is curious is that besides Germans the primary continental group I share my branch with are Czechs. I wonder if given an older connection with a Pole that my U152>L2>Z49 branch may have originated in the east? Tough to determine with the later historical presence of Germans in the east I suppose. If the branch was from the east originally I wonder how they wound up along the Rhine and eventually into Britain.

https://i.ibb.co/7tPZVtZ/download.png

hantrolugharsts
02-27-2021, 11:57 PM
E-V22

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EylGuU8qxGI/X8-fywaO2YI/AAAAAAAAFJI/rka4wbTMrrsgs3pRc3nlyfTIp2g8RFrbACLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/Mapemiouncertain.jpeg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VjdJDyCKr8s/X9Dja3ntKII/AAAAAAAAFJg/dWQc5N9w8zw9LgD8EDwv9BLuznlSdqP9ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1310/MapeYdnaEuropa.jpeg



J1c5c
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EFeZpV6x1a8/X84UnNfGeQI/AAAAAAAAFIw/DXwbhS8uBUQbfeoE1UBKnaJv1FEhbGNXwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1310/MapamitocondrialJ1c5c1.jpeg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KTrQqtyKPvY/X84U12QoQhI/AAAAAAAAFI4/A5rKdUy-OtYW8pKt9h6VQzZ47x_GvnEkACLcBGAsYHQ/s1307/MapamitocondrialJ1c5c1near.jpeg



U6a3
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-c92_RQejF2w/YDrbLE2D1-I/AAAAAAAAF84/rUmmEBkw3TAS-edheWlzd-CxWzD9Xw9AQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1338/U6a3.jpeg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-j1CW7ilJU54/YDrbZOA-gkI/AAAAAAAAF88/yjcMF5pW7tAsxqkS4BFMnQFFMOur3MbPwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1319/U6a3ZoomEurope.jpeg

Nqp15hhu
05-16-2021, 02:18 PM
My route, this has changed several times. It was initially in the highlands, now it is in SW Scotland. Very interesting:

https://imgur.com/ZzeQq97.jpg

I wonder if I can take it to mean that my y line came from Ayrshire or Lanarkshire etc?

Musashi
05-23-2021, 07:56 PM
44782

44783

My direct y-dna path: E-FT40236. It seems to be connected to italic or Celtic migration in Italy