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R.Rocca
12-09-2013, 08:20 PM
Coia et al (2013). Demographic Histories, Isolation and Social Factors as Determinants of the Genetic Structure of Alpine Linguistic Groups
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0081704

As was confirmed by Boattini et al (2013), U152 has its frequency peak in northern Italy. But, Boattini's data also showed an interesting pattern - one where U152 was less frequent in Adriatic North East Italy, but when it did occur, it was more likely to be made up of L2 lineages. Coia's data now gives us some further clarity on the matter.

- Coming in close to Brescia's 51.3% (per Boattini), Val Badia is a close second in overall U152 frequency with 50.0%. However, what constitutes U152 is very different between the two areas, with Brescia being very high in U152(xL2) (38.5%) and Val Badia dominated by L2+ (47.7%).

- In terms of overall U152 frequency, it is much more frequent in Italian speaking populations (table below - green header), is somewhat less frequent in Ladin speaking populations (blue header) and much less frequent in German speaking populations (red header):

http://r1b.org/imgs/Coia_2013_Frequency.png

- The only U152 subclade to be tested by Coia was L2. U152(xL2) dominates in Italian speaking populations (84.2% of overall U152) whereas L2+ dominates in Ladin speaking populations (91.8% of overall U152) and to a lesser extent, German speaking populations:

http://r1b.org/imgs/Coia_2013_L2_Hotspot_Map.png

- It's tough to say if the current U152/L2 divide is a product of the post-Roman linguistic breakup of Latin (Italian/Ladin) or more of a north-of-the-Alps / south-of-the-Alps division related to Copper/Bronze Age populations. Z36 seems to stretch from western Switzerland to Tuscany and L2 from eastern Switzerland to South Tyrol. As a point of reference, Bavaria also has a higher percentage of L2 (Rebala et al 2012) at 63.4%. Much of the eastern Alpine areas have cultural ties from the Central European Bell Beaker province (Begleitkeramik), continuing through the Arbon and Polada Cultures and through to the Inneralpine Bronzezeitkultur (Inner Alpine Bronze Age Culture).

Of course, we still wait for Z36, Z56 and PF6658/Z193 and their subclades to make their way into academic studies to give us a clearer picture of what is an interesting, albeit complex distribution of U152.

emmental
12-10-2013, 01:37 PM
Wow! That is a sharp break between Fersina and Fiemme. The Adige River Valley seems to be the boundary between L2 an xL2. These Alpine Valleys and the passes associated with them, may have some clues for us.

Pigmon
12-10-2013, 04:27 PM
Thanks for this information Richard! Very interesting!

I looked at the abstract and didn't see an reference to subclades of L2. Is there any mention of Z49+, Z142+, Z150+, Z152+ or other downstream subclades of L2+ in this study?

R.Rocca
12-10-2013, 05:05 PM
Thanks for this information Richard! Very interesting!

I looked at the abstract and didn't see an reference to subclades of L2. Is there any mention of Z49+, Z142+, Z150+, Z152+ or other downstream subclades of L2+ in this study?

They only tested for U152 and L2, nothing else downstream.

vettor
12-10-2013, 05:09 PM
Coia et al (2013). Demographic Histories, Isolation and Social Factors as Determinants of the Genetic Structure of Alpine Linguistic Groups
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0081704

As was confirmed by Boattini et al (2013), U152 has its frequency peak in northern Italy. But, Boattini's data also showed an interesting pattern - one where U152 was less frequent in Adriatic North East Italy, but when it did occur, it was more likely to be made up of L2 lineages. Coia's data now gives us some further clarity on the matter.

- Coming in close to Brescia's 51.3% (per Boattini), Val Badia is a close second in overall U152 frequency with 50.0%. However, what constitutes U152 is very different between the two areas, with Brescia being very high in U152(xL2) (38.5%) and Val Badia dominated by L2+ (47.7%).

- In terms of overall U152 frequency, it is much more frequent in Italian speaking populations (table below - green header), is somewhat less frequent in Ladin speaking populations (blue header) and much less frequent in German speaking populations (red header):

http://r1b.org/imgs/Coia_2013_Frequency.png

- The only U152 subclade to be tested by Coia was L2. U152(xL2) dominates in Italian speaking populations (84.2% of overall U152) whereas L2+ dominates in Ladin speaking populations (91.8% of overall U152) and to a lesser extent, German speaking populations:

http://r1b.org/imgs/Coia_2013_L2_Hotspot_Map.png

- It's tough to say if the current U152/L2 divide is a product of the post-Roman linguistic breakup of Latin (Italian/Ladin) or more of a north-of-the-Alps / south-of-the-Alps division related to Copper/Bronze Age populations. Z36 seems to stretch from western Switzerland to Tuscany and L2 from eastern Switzerland to South Tyrol. As a point of reference, Bavaria also has a higher percentage of L2 (Rebala et al 2012) at 63.4%. Much of the eastern Alpine areas have cultural ties from the Central European Bell Beaker province (Begleitkeramik), continuing through the Arbon and Polada Cultures and through to the Inneralpine Bronzezeitkultur (Inner Alpine Bronze Age Culture).

Of course, we still wait for Z36, Z56 and PF6658/Z193 and their subclades to make their way into academic studies to give us a clearer picture of what is an interesting, albeit complex distribution of U152.

the other part of the paper of the paper you commented on
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0056371

would not the L2 of the Ladin ( ancient Raetic people who learnt latin over time ) people show similar markers to modern bavarians and swabians. The ancient Raetic lands basically was south of the danube of germany to verona and to eastern switzerland ( we can include the vindelici people of the black forest area here as well ).
Considering that bavarians and swabians where the last to become germanized , I think L2 was a very early migration into the alpine areas


L2 could also be part of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canegrate_culture

emmental
12-10-2013, 05:30 PM
1053

So would the the ancient Italian population (brown) represent U152>L2 and the Transalpine Gauls (green) represent U152xL2?

R.Rocca
12-10-2013, 06:22 PM
1053

So would the the ancient Italian population (brown) represent U152>L2 and the Transalpine Gauls (green) represent U152xL2?

I don't think there is a correlation. L2 is more frequent as a percentage of U152 in some of the green "Celtic Tribe" areas on the map (Carni and Leponzi). Also, L2 makes up a very large percentage of U152 in France, etc. which were obviously Celtic. The breakup of U152 in Italy seems to be older than the Iron Age.

vettor
12-12-2013, 05:10 AM
I don't think there is a correlation. L2 is more frequent as a percentage of U152 in some of the green "Celtic Tribe" areas on the map (Carni and Leponzi). Also, L2 makes up a very large percentage of U152 in France, etc. which were obviously Celtic. The breakup of U152 in Italy seems to be older than the Iron Age.

??

clearly the 93% of L2 comes is in the brown area which states raeti and camuni ( part of the eugenei tribe along with the stoni tribe)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganei
The numbers lower as you head into central northern italy and lower still the more south you go.

clearly L2 is non Italic people, but more so a gallic/celtic/rhaetic people

The carni are either original people of the north-east alps as per italian sources ( carnico and are still there today) or gallic people as per english sources

numbers from paper
28.1% R1b-U152 [2.1% U152* / 26.0% L2] meaning 92.5% of all U152 in Ladiner folks is L2;

10.5% R1b-L21 (reaching 24.4% in Gardena-valley 12/49 samples)

Alessio B. Bedini
12-12-2013, 08:09 AM
In my opinion it is useless to test U152 and L2 because they are too common.
Should test a level below

Rathna
12-12-2013, 09:04 AM
In my opinion it is useless to test U152 and L2 because they are too common.
Should test a level below

Above all I said to you that many surprises will come from what is a paragroup L2* now, comprising yours. To think to R-L2 like something homogeneous is probably wrong.

R.Rocca
12-12-2013, 12:46 PM
In my opinion it is useless to test U152 and L2 because they are too common.
Should test a level below

That is obvious, but until the time when unbiased academic studies test for all subclades (which could be 5 years from now), this is the best we have.

haleaton
12-12-2013, 03:22 PM
That is obvious, but until the time when unbiased academic studies test for all subclades (which could be 5 years from now), this is the best we have.

I wonder if they store extra of the samples for later testing as it seems like a fraction of the cost of collecting them and getting permissions..