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View Full Version : Huge horse paper (with major implications for the PIE homeland) coming in days



Generalissimo
04-28-2019, 06:51 AM
This has just appeared at the ENA...

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB31613

The abstract doesn't give much away, except that native Iberian and Siberian horses are now extinct, and basically so is their DNA, and that modern horses owe a lot to Medieval breeds from the Near East (Arabians, Turkomens, and so on).

The sample list is huge, and includes these horses (their dates are at the ends of the labels). Look at the list of samples from Eastern Europe and Iran. This is probably not a coincidence. Horses are important to the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) homeland debate because of the early horse cult peculiar to Indo-European cultures. My bet is that one or more of those forest steppe/steppe horses from the Mesolithic to the Copper Age is going to be shown to be ancestral to the modern domesticated horse lineage, and if so, that'll be a huge bonus for the steppe PIE homeland theory. Note also the Copper Age and Iron Age samples from Iran. They'll also be informative about where the modern domesticated horse originated and how and when it spread.

Altata_NB31_Neolithic
Belkaragay_NB13_CopperAge
Belkaragay_NB15_CopperAge
CaminoDeLasYeseras_CdY2_4678 (Bell Beaker horse?)
Derkul_NB2_Neolithic
Derkul_NB4_Neolithic
Kokorevo_Rus3_14450
LebyazhinkaIV_NB35_Neolithic
PotapovkaI_1_3900
Sagzabad_SAGS27_3117
Sintashta_NB44_3577
Sintashta_NB45_3577
TepeHasanlu_1140_2682
TepeHasanlu_2327_2352
TepeHasanlu_2529_2352
TepeHasanlu_2689_2352
TepeHasanlu_3394_2808
TepeHasanlu_3398_2352
TepeHasanlu_3459_2667
TepeHasanlu_3461_2930
TepeHasanlu_368_2896
TepeMehrAli_Trj12x31_CopperAge
Yerqorqan_YER28_2853

Generalissimo
04-28-2019, 09:45 AM
Whoops, some of those "horses" from Iran in that paper are actually onagers and donkeys.

Should've looked at their species classifications.

rms2
04-28-2019, 07:31 PM
Thanks for the news. I've been looking forward to that paper ever since I saw this interview with Dr. Outram.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50o0KSWB42Y

rms2
04-28-2019, 07:42 PM
Not trying to be insulting, but Dr. Outram reminds me of this famous character.

30140

Since Popeye was a hero of mine when I was a kid, comparison to him is actually a form of flattery.

RCO
04-29-2019, 12:05 AM
We show that the influence of Persian-related horse lineages increased following the Islamic conquests in Europe and Asia.

The biggest Iranian influence in Western Europe was related to the Alans not the Arabs.

rms2
04-29-2019, 01:10 AM
The biggest Iranian influence in Western Europe was related to the Alans not the Arabs.

Correct me if I am wrong, but, although the Alans were an Iranian-speaking people, they weren't native to Iran but to Central Asia and moved into the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the 1st century AD. They later invaded Parthia (i.e., Iran), but they were already horse-borne pastoralists.

Generalissimo
04-29-2019, 01:15 AM
The biggest Iranian influence in Western Europe was related to the Alans not the Arabs.

Strange comment.

It's actually well documented that most Western European horse breeds have recent origins post-dating the medieval (Alan) period, and in fact largely descend from Arabian and Turkomen horses, especially in terms of paternal ancestry.

There was a paper about that published recently...


We interpreted the predominance of the crown haplogroup in Western European and North American breeds as a consequence of the extreme preference of stallions of Oriental origin during the past few hundred years.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42640-w

But of course this has nothing to do with the question of whether the modern domestic horse ultimately comes from the steppe or not. It probably does, because even Arabian and Turkomen horses are closely related to Sintashta and Scythian horses.

RCO
04-29-2019, 11:34 AM
That's the best book about the Alans:
Agustí Alemany, Sources on the Alans: A Critical Compilation

https://books.google.com.br/books?isbn=9004114424

We can read a good part in google books.

Chad Rohlfsen
05-02-2019, 11:15 PM
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(19)30384-8

Generalissimo
05-03-2019, 11:16 AM
The sampling strategy in this paper was a let down. No horses from Khvalynsk, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya, etc. So it says nothing about the homeland of the modern domesticated horse lineage aka the Indo-European horse.

But there were some interesting things in this paper. It looks like Bell Beaker horses were mostly derived from Sintashta-related steppe horses, but at least some also had Iberian ancestry. And these horses with Iberian ancestry were later totally replaced in Europe.

La Tene (Celtic), Gallo-Roman, Pictish, and Viking horses are all Sintashta-related horses with no Iberian ancestry! Here's a schematic with a few words on the topic...

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Eksej8aKrns/XMzmVmbZDNI/AAAAAAAAHzA/hyKx4G1w2X4isLE5XIPJzgm71EchanuugCLcBGAs/s1600/Inferring_the_language_of_the_CWC3.jpg

Ruderico
05-03-2019, 11:18 AM
So Iron Age Iberian horses were different than modern ones such as Sorraia? I guess the change in horses was later than I expected, and BB horses died out. Pity there were no Garrano and/or Asturcon samples

rms2
05-03-2019, 11:19 PM
So Iron Age Iberian horses were different than modern ones such as Sorraia? I guess the change in horses was later than I expected, and BB horses died out. Pity there were no Garrano and/or Asturcon samples

Yeah. "Bummer" is the best summation, I think.

Helen
05-04-2019, 09:22 AM
I think the mtDNA diagram could be misleading if they have not included a sample from haplogroup R. I know that Gauntiz (2018) did not include a modern sample from haplogroup R which in Achilli (2012) is the most basal for extant horse, and the mtDNA tree in this latest paper has the same basic structure. I have analysed the sequences available from the genbank and have found New Siberian Islands JW28 KT57749 and Ural mountains 151 KT57757 to be best placed branching after node A'R but before node A'Q with Urals 151 being closer to node A'Q. Should this prove correct, this means that all the Botia and Borly horses as well as the two named above fall within the modern horse mtDNA clade and not outside like some of the ancient horses from North America do. It would be interesting if someone with more skill and a better computer than I have got to compare the mtDNA part sequences in Lira from ancient and modern Iberian horses to see if they are the same haplotype 'Lusitano C' as the ancient Iberian horses in this most recent paper. Also can anyone compare the Y DNA from the Thistle Creek horse 700K to see if it branches off before or after the Iberian Y DNA?

rms2
05-04-2019, 09:50 PM
This paper was a huge disappointment, for all the reasons Generalissimo enumerated above.

It's really a drag when you wait for something and it turns out to be nearly worthless.

johen
05-06-2019, 11:44 PM
It looks like Bell Beaker horses were mostly derived from Sintashta-related steppe horses, but at least some also had Iberian ancestry. And these horses with Iberian ancestry were later totally replaced in Europe.



So does it mean that they are all arctic horses like pazyryk horse?

Generalissimo
05-07-2019, 03:36 AM
So does it mean that they are all arctic horses like pazyryk horse?

No, they're from west of Central Asia, which means Eastern Europe.

johen
05-07-2019, 04:14 AM
No, they're from west of Central Asia, which means Eastern Europe.

But last research,

The 14 ancient genomes reported here have strong implications for the horse domestication process. First, it has recently been discovered that a now-extinct lineage of wild horses existed in the Arctic until at least ~5.2 ka and significantly contributed to the genetic makeup of present-day domesticates (14,15). The timing of the underlying admixture event(s) is, however, unknown. Using D statistics, we confirmed that this extinct lineage shared more derived polymorphisms with the Sintashta and especially Scythian horses than with present-day domesticates (Fig. 2B). The domestic horse lineage, thus, experienced a net loss of archaic introgressed tracts within the past ~2.3 ky.

Although it is west of central asia, there is a possibility of surtanda culture in east Ural where sintashta located. As far as I know, the surtanda culture has horse and cattle bones and their geometrical pottery is related with south caucasus's and sintashta pottery.

Generalissimo
05-07-2019, 06:27 AM
Although it is west of central asia, there is a possibility of surtanda culture in east Ural where sintashta located. As far as I know, the surtanda culture has horse and cattle bones and their geometrical pottery is related with south caucasus's and sintashta pottery.

Sintashta wasn't native to the east Ural area. It came from deep in Europe, because it looks like an offshoot of Corded Ware.

Censored
05-07-2019, 06:39 AM
Sintashta wasn't native to the east Ural area. It came from deep in Europe, because it looks like an offshoot of Corded Ware.

What exactly caused Corded Ware people to go to the edge of Europe and then into Central Asia? Was something pushing them?

Generalissimo
05-07-2019, 07:42 AM
What exactly caused Corded Ware people to go to the edge of Europe and then into Central Asia? Was something pushing them?

I don't know, but Sintashta culture settlements were metallurgical centers, and one of the biggest markets for metal at the time was Central Asia.

Huck Finn
05-07-2019, 07:46 AM
This point of johen, related to "First, it has recently been discovered that a now-extinct lineage of wild horses existed in the Arctic until at least ~5.2 ka and significantly contributed to the genetic makeup of present-day domesticates (14,15)...Using D statistics, we confirmed that this extinct lineage shared more derived polymorphisms with the Sintashta and especially Scythian horses than with present-day domesticates..." is interesting as in the horse study the Treemix, Fig. 3, if I recall it right, combines the Bronze Age/early iron Age Ridala horse of Estonia with an Altaian Pazyryk (i.e. Scythian?) horse.

Even if Surtanda wasn't an Uralic speaking culture based on herding, also horse herding, by semi aggressive semi nomads, Sintashta is a bit of a mystery in itself. Why a powerful group of Steppe roamers chose to hide within the EDIT Arkaim type of walls, if they were superior in terms of Steppe dominance?

Generalissimo
05-07-2019, 09:46 AM
This point of johen, related to "First, it has recently been discovered that a now-extinct lineage of wild horses existed in the Arctic until at least ~5.2 ka and significantly contributed to the genetic makeup of present-day domesticates (14,15)...Using D statistics, we confirmed that this extinct lineage shared more derived polymorphisms with the Sintashta and especially Scythian horses than with present-day domesticates..." is interesting as in the horse study the Treemix, Fig. 3, if I recall it right, combines the Bronze Age/early iron Age Ridala horse of Estonia with an Altaian Pazyryk (i.e. Scythian?) horse.

Even if Surtanda wasn't an Uralic speaking culture based on herding, also horse herding, by semi aggressive semi nomads, Sintashta is a bit of a mystery in itself. Why a powerful group of Steppe roamers chose to hide within the EDIT Arkaim type of walls, if they were superior in terms of Steppe dominance?

Sintashta settlements were metallurgical centers presumably with a lot of wealth.

Huck Finn
05-07-2019, 10:01 AM
Sintashta settlements were metallurgical centers presumably with a lot of wealth.

The point stands still. If fex Arkaim was the bank, who were the robbers?

Generalissimo
05-07-2019, 10:09 AM
The point stands still. If fex Arkaim was the bank, who were the robbers?

Disgruntled Arkaim exiles who knew a thing or two about chariot battles?

We can't assume that these people were all good friends, even though they belonged to the same culture and genetic cluster.

Huck Finn
05-07-2019, 10:37 AM
We can't assume that these people were all good friends, even though they belonged to the same culture and genetic cluster.
After just spending two weeks in Belorus and Ukraine I fully appreciate your point. National Museum in Kiev is pretty interesting also in a political context. Every possible text and sign is about Kievan Rus-Ukraine i.e. not just about Kievan Rus. After showing the size and wealth of Kiev of Kievan Rus, the museum also introduces the humble Moscow of Yuri Dolgorukiy.

Meryanic type of zoomorphic pendants are BTW wrongly classified there as being Slovenic, which is very very wrong.

alan
05-07-2019, 03:02 PM
Unless something new has been found in terms of radiocarbon dating that I havent read, Sintashta is 4-500 years younger than central European bell beaker. If bell beaker horses are largely derived from the same type of horses used by Sintashta then the horses are from a quite distant ancestor culture of Sintashta or via contact with a group (like beaker) who did use such horses. Usually Sintashta is derived from some CW derivitive in easternmost Europe while genetics may indicate a more western origin. Either way origins linking to CW seem pretty clear. So, if I am understanding the implications of this correctly, there must have been a group who fed these steppe horses into beaker and stuck around long enough to make them a feature of Sintashta. Problem is for horse riding I am not aware of any proven examples before central European beaker. So who were the group who fed horses of a type later found in Abashevo into bell beaker many centuries before Abashevo even existed? Logic would tend to suggest that the steppe horses link with beaker came at the extreme eastern end of the beaker distribution either round Poland or Hungary. The apparently deliberate sending of an offshoot to Csepel by the central European beaker peoples around Moravia seems to me to be most likely motivated by a wish to establish a supply route (or perhaps establish a new supply route) for horses into the beaker world. Its unlikely that they would have gone to all that trouble if they didnt already have a horse tradition. Perhaps the original supply line for horses was blocked off and this was a secondary supply route founded out of necessity or the wish to cut out an unreasonable middleman who controlled an alternative route around the north flanks of the Carpathians. There was a lot going on around the Carpathian-steppe interface c. 2600-2500BC

johen
05-07-2019, 03:36 PM
Even if Surtanda wasn't an Uralic speaking culture based on herding, also horse herding, by semi aggressive semi nomads, Sintashta is a bit of a mystery in itself. Why a powerful group of Steppe roamers chose to hide within the EDIT Arkaim type of walls, if they were superior in terms of Steppe dominance?

This is seima turbino territory. A finish scholar explained this thing as SM network, but looks like he did not know who the altai people were at that time. SM culture reached china, south east asia, and iberia & british isle at late bronze age, and maybe copper hoard in India. The altai culture of SM and karasuk entered bronze china, where maximum cruelty appeared. I don't think botai people, bloody wild horse killer, was a different people. Yamna dare to penetrate this butcher zone according to Anthony?

who compete with tin bronze SM? arsenic bronze sintashta?
Kuzmina stated that andronovo expansion is closely related with tin bronze expansion.


Abstract
Records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of Shang Dynasty. Human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in Shang Dynasty for worshipping spirits. Different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. As the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. In the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. The lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. The methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. With the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in Shang dynasty. These practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph/page2 (post 12, 15)

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/seima-turbino-phenomenon-parpola.jpg
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Oliver_Dietrich/publication/289671485/figure/fig1/AS:[email protected]/Model-of-the-proposed-spread-of-socketed-axes-from-east-to-west-At-present-radiocarbon.png
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Model-of-the-proposed-spread-of-socketed-axes-from-east-to-west-At-present-radiocarbon_fig1_289671485

Western scholar said sintashta culture suddenly popped up. I don't think that sintashta-like high developed culture appeared without reason: Southern Urals seemed to be a crossroad of ancient technology routes such a long time.


The contact between the southern Urals and the southern Caspian basin can clearly traced not only in the mesolithic, but also during the neolithic an eneolithic
https://books.google.ca/books?id=c_48AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=surtanda+geometry+pottery&source=bl&ots=EGg7dSyrIs&sig=ACfU3U2LvSFFU4dXP_af8q0gNuYDEdI-og&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJhMKTjfTfAhUHHDQIHUYDBPMQ6AEwEHoECAkQA Q#v=onepage&q=surtanda%20geometry%20pottery&f=false

And I want to know whether the following facts are true?

Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia).
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

This mycenaean had one long braid like aryan and china bronze people:
https://www.classics.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/styles/mt_image_medium/public/classics/images/media/collective-ritual-image.jpg?itok=5ROD-EQV

Generalissimo
05-08-2019, 01:56 AM
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/seima-turbino-phenomenon-parpola.jpg

Western scholar said sintashta culture suddenly popped up.

No, they said that Sintashta came from the west, from Corded Ware via Abashevo, which is supported by ancient DNA and what the map that you posted indicates as well.

johen
05-08-2019, 02:23 AM
No, they said that Sintashta came from the west, from Corded Ware via Abashevo, which is supported by ancient DNA and what the map that you posted indicates as well.

I think that migration has some problem as I already mentioned before. Steppe MLBA east has more EHG admixture than steppe MLBA west. Moreover, zevakinsky LBA has most EHG.

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/yamna-migrations-indo-iranian.png

Generalissimo
05-08-2019, 02:40 AM
I think that migration has some problem as I already mentioned before. Steppe MLBA east has more EHG admixture than steppe MLBA west. Moreover, zevakinsky LBA has most EHG.

You're not making any sense.

Steppe_MLBA east has West_Siberia_N-related ancestry that it acquired after migrating from Europe deep into Asia.

In other words, Corded Ware > Steppe_MLBA west > Steppe_MLBA west + West_Siberia_N > Steppe_MLBA east

Generalissimo
05-08-2019, 02:53 AM
So who were the group who fed horses of a type later found in Abashevo into bell beaker many centuries before Abashevo even existed? Logic would tend to suggest that the steppe horses link with beaker came at the extreme eastern end of the beaker distribution either round Poland or Hungary.

I don't know about this. The horse from the Bronze Age Hungarian Plain doesn't fit the profile of a Sintashta/modern domesticated horse because it has far too much Iberian ancestry.

So to me it looks like modern horses came from east of Hungary, and replaced all horses with significant Iberian ancestry. The Celts had the same type of horse as Sintashta, as well as Sintashta-like chariots.

parasar
05-08-2019, 04:35 PM
No, they said that Sintashta came from the west, from Corded Ware via Abashevo, which is supported by ancient DNA and what the map that you posted indicates as well.

Have we seen even one confirmed Z93 in Corded Ware - Central European and the Baltic CW?
It looks like R1a-Z645 splits in the forest steppes with Z283 moving west and Z93 moving east.

Helen
05-09-2019, 08:57 AM
Further to my comments on the potential groups for the Botai and Iberian horses in the recent paper Fages et al. 2019 I have made some more observations.

1. I have just found four partial mtDNA sequences in GenBank for Botai horses deposited by Bower, M.A. et al. for an as yet unpublished paper.
BOT955 and BOT956 have D-loop mutations found in haplogroup G or pre-G.
Interestingly BOT958 and BOT959 have all the D-loop mutations for haplogroup R1. As it is a unique combination I feel certain of their assignment. They may or may not be from the same individuals as the ones done by Fages etc but it is suggestive that the basal clade of Botai, Borly and Yenikapi Tur171 could well be haplogroup R. This would place JW28 outside the modern horse phylogenetic tree and it must have mutations which take priority over the ones I noted that I used to place it within. I based my deduction on the mutations I could locate using the information given in Achilli (Mitochondrial genomes from modern horses reveal the major haplogroups that underwent domestication 2012) and Domtree horse.

2. The sample El Acequion Spain39 seems to be the same individual as that partially sequenced by Cieslak M, et al. (2010) (Origin and history of mitochondrial DNA lineages in domestic horses) and to which they assigned the haplotype name H (not the ‘H’ in Achilli). They also did a lot of other ancient Iberian horses and included all the ancient horses from Lira et al. (Ancient DNA reveals traces of Iberian Neolithic and Bronze Age lineages in modern Iberian horses 2009) plus various modern Iberian ones. Many grouped together with the two diagnostic mutations first noted in Lira. This implies that the unique haplogroup from Iberia was extensive and is still to be found in a few breeds of Iberian origin namely Lusitano, Garano and Argentinean Creole.
A Palaeolithic sample Kg2 from Kniegrotte Germany also done by Cieslak M, et al. had one of the two mutations so potentially basal to the haplotype. Both papers also found other haplotypes in the ancient Iberian horses too.
I am aware that some people have a low regard for mitochondrial DNA groups but they can have some interesting biological implications.
Does any one know if it is possible to download just the mitochondrial sequences for samples in the European Nucleotide Archive?

Ztech1979
07-24-2019, 05:23 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but, although the Alans were an Iranian-speaking people, they weren't native to Iran but to Central Asia and moved into the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the 1st century AD. They later invaded Parthia (i.e., Iran), but they were already horse-borne pastoralists.

Actually the Alans as well as Scythians and many of the other tribes of the region were genetically related to populations of the Iranian plateau. This is supported by Ancient DNA studies, and why both the Max Plank institute AND David Reich have suggested a PIE homeland in the south caucaus region (Iran/Armenia). Intuitevly it would make little sense for a divegent group to adopt an Iranian language.

rms2
07-24-2019, 06:05 PM
Actually the Alans as well as Scythians and many of the other tribes of the region were genetically related to populations of the Iranian plateau. This is supported by Ancient DNA studies, and why both the Max Plank institute AND David Reich have suggested a PIE homeland in the south caucaus region (Iran/Armenia). Intuitevly it would make little sense for a divegent group to adopt an Iranian language.

"[G]enetically related to populations of the Iranian plateau" does not mean they originated there. I think you are exaggerating (and that is being kind) in suggesting that both the Max Planck Institute and David Reich have suggested a PIE homeland in the south Caucasus region. I think both have said such a thing is possible, but, of course, most people with brain power greater than that of a mouse know that is not likely.

Generalissimo
07-24-2019, 09:25 PM
Actually the Alans as well as Scythians and many of the other tribes of the region were genetically related to populations of the Iranian plateau. This is supported by Ancient DNA studies, and why both the Max Plank institute AND David Reich have suggested a PIE homeland in the south caucaus region (Iran/Armenia). Intuitevly it would make little sense for a divegent group to adopt an Iranian language.

This is not supported by Ancient DNA studies.

The scientists at Max Planck and David Reich made a mistake by assuming this.

Yamnaya isn't from Iran just like R1a isn't from India (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/06/yamnaya-isnt-from-iran-just-like-r1a.html)

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LX5_QnHA8tE/WzLe-8bQ3vI/AAAAAAAAG7o/HduY0wnObvc9O5Ce-B2g8VN1tfLxML1gQCLcBGAs/s1600/Wang_etal_Fig_1.jpg

Ztech1979
07-25-2019, 01:09 AM
This is not supported by Ancient DNA studies.

The scientists at Max Planck and David Reich made a mistake by assuming this.

Yamnaya isn't from Iran just like R1a isn't from India (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/06/yamnaya-isnt-from-iran-just-like-r1a.html)

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LX5_QnHA8tE/WzLe-8bQ3vI/AAAAAAAAG7o/HduY0wnObvc9O5Ce-B2g8VN1tfLxML1gQCLcBGAs/s1600/Wang_etal_Fig_1.jpg
Refuting it is a matter of convenience, not fact.

Ztech1979
07-25-2019, 01:16 AM
"[G]enetically related to populations of the Iranian plateau" does not mean they originated there. I think you are exaggerating (and that is being kind) in suggesting that both the Max Planck Institute and David Reich have suggested a PIE homeland in the south Caucasus region. I think both have said such a thing is possible, but, of course, most people with brain power greater than that of a mouse know that is not likely.

No exaggeration needed. Both Reich and MPI plainly suggested it. There are multiple lines of evidence to support a south caucaus homeland.

Ruderico
07-25-2019, 06:01 AM
No exaggeration needed. Both Reich and MPI plainly suggested it. There are multiple lines of evidence to support a south caucaus homeland.

You should provide such evidence, rather than just claiming something and leaving it at that

Generalissimo
07-25-2019, 08:51 AM
No exaggeration needed. Both Reich and MPI plainly suggested it. There are multiple lines of evidence to support a south caucaus homeland.

There's no such evidence.

Such evidence was expected, but it failed to show up. The data that came in from the Caucasus and the nearby steppe showed that there was no migration from the Iranian Plateau into the steppe.

Ztech1979
07-25-2019, 12:44 PM
There's no such evidence.

Such evidence was expected, but it failed to show up. The data that came in from the Caucasus and the nearby steppe showed that there was no migration from the Iranian Plateau into the steppe.


Eurogenes doesn't count. No credible genetic study that "came from the Caucasus and the nearby steppe" has rejected the Southern Caucasus homeland. (Archaeological evidence has suggested a southern source for nearly a century). Steppe theorists are highly persistent ....claim the origin of a haplotype, wait six months for a study that shows it's immediate ancestral type was either in Turkey (or Armenia/Iran), claim another haplotype...Same thing for two decades, starting with R1a1 fiascal, which Underhill's huge 2014 study using 16,244 individuals from over 126 populations from across Eurasia, concluded that there was compelling evidence that "the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran", effectively shutting up that hope for Steppe theorists.




You should provide such evidence, rather than just claiming something and leaving it at that

My sources are fairly credible. Here is Russell Gray of the Max Plank Institute plainly giving his view....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a34TgLS9Tj8&t=2s



Your wishful thinking doesn't heal your wounds.....

jdean
07-25-2019, 07:40 PM
No exaggeration needed. Both Reich and MPI plainly suggested it. There are multiple lines of evidence to support a south caucaus homeland.

Ancient Genomes Reveal Yamnaya-Related Ancestry and a Potential Source of Indo-European Speakers in Iron Age Tianshan (https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)30771-7?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com %2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982219307717%3Fshowall%3D true#secsectitle0155)


Based on the ADMIXTURE and qpAdm analysis, we conclude that the western Eurasian ancestry in the Shirenzigou individuals was most likely related to Yamnaya without significant evidence of European farmer-related gene flow that is present in later Steppe_MLBA populations. The Yamnaya-related steppe ancestry has been described as a mixture of Eastern and Caucasus hunter-gatherers from the Pontic-Caspian steppes, dating to 3,300–2,600 BCE, which eventually spread further to the Altai region in the East in the form of people associated to the Afanasievo Culture. The same population likely migrated to Europe in the West contributing substantially to present-day Europeans along with the spread of some of the region. The high amount of Yamnaya or Afanasievo-related ancestry in the Iron Age Xinjiang individuals indirectly supports the introduction of Indo-European languages into the region that survived in the form of Tocharian until the late first millennium CE.

Nice bit of timing that paper : )

rms2
07-25-2019, 08:57 PM
. . .
My sources are fairly credible. Here is Russell Gray of the Max Plank Institute plainly giving his view....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a34TgLS9Tj8&t=2s



Your wishful thinking doesn't heal your wounds.....

When you said your sources are credible, I thought you were going to cite one of those. Instead, you cited one of the men behind a totally discredited model of IE origins.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrQ_vgfkxNg

Generalissimo
07-25-2019, 11:39 PM
Same thing for two decades, starting with R1a1 fiascal, which Underhill's huge 2014 study using 16,244 individuals from over 126 populations from across Eurasia, concluded that there was compelling evidence that "the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran", effectively shutting up that hope for Steppe theorists.

Ancient DNA now shows that R1a can't be from Iran.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SF74a3xkvg4/WdDa0l5addI/AAAAAAAAGH0/BM8SEreRWfMF_tpH2pfEpd20-68zOE90gCLcBGAs/s1600/R1a-M417_The_Beast.png

Ztech1979
07-26-2019, 12:23 AM
When you said your sources are credible, I thought you were going to cite one of those. Instead, you cited one of the men behind a totally discredited model of IE origins.




Reich and MPI came forward with their Southern Caucasus hypothesis less than 2 years ago. That video link you posted is 6 years old. How did your ("credible") Steppe saviors discredit the South Caucuses hypothesis that hadn't been presented until we had ample genetic evidence with ancient DNA, some 4 years later?

Generalissimo
07-26-2019, 12:40 AM
Reich and MPI came forward with their Southern Caucasus hypothesis less than 2 years ago. That video link you posted is 6 years old. How did your ("credible") Steppe saviors discredit the South Caucuses hypothesis that hadn't been presented until we had ample genetic evidence with ancient DNA, some 4 years later?

There's no genetic evidence supporting a PIE homeland south of the Caucasus.

rms2
07-26-2019, 12:59 AM
Reich and MPI came forward with their Southern Caucasus hypothesis less than 2 years ago. That video link you posted is 6 years old. How did your ("credible") Steppe saviors discredit the South Caucuses hypothesis that hadn't been presented until we had ample genetic evidence with ancient DNA, some 4 years later?

The south-of-the-Caucasus hypothesis has been around since at least 1989, when Colin Renfrew's book, Archaeology & Language, appeared and proposed it. I believe Gamkrelidze's and Ivanov's eastern Anatolia/Armenia Urheimat idea has been around at least that long, as well.

One of the big problems with them is that they don't fit the linguistic evidence, and, since IE is a language family, that's the most important evidence.

For one thing, the ideas of Gray and Atkinson make Indo-European impossibly old and require it to remain essentially unchanged for three or four thousand years.

And, besides that, there is no genetic evidence for a south-of-the-Caucasus Urheimat.

Ztech1979
07-26-2019, 12:57 PM
The south-of-the-Caucasus hypothesis has been around since at least 1989, when Colin Renfrew's book, Archaeology & Language, appeared and proposed it. I believe Gamkrelidze's and Ivanov's eastern Anatolia/Armenia Urheimat

And, besides that, there is no genetic evidence for a south-of-the-Caucasus Urheimat.

"no genetic evidence" after I just posted a 2018 video of MPI llainly supporting a south Caucasus homeland. Your delusion is strong.

jdean
07-26-2019, 01:22 PM
"no genetic evidence" after I just posted a 2018 video of MPI llainly supporting a south Caucasus homeland. Your delusion is strong.

Russell Gray's argument isn't based in genetics but rather linguistics but he's not actually an historical linguist himself and his methods are hotly contested by people who work in that field, see Rich's early post.

There is also new DNA evidence for Ancient South Indian, who were a non Indo European group, yet contained a lot of Iranian making it very difficult for the later to have been the source for PIE.

https://youtu.be/Ef4OlJwzxxE?t=2383

rms2
07-26-2019, 01:25 PM
"no genetic evidence" after I just posted a 2018 video of MPI llainly supporting a south Caucasus homeland. Your delusion is strong.

Your argument is less than weak.

What is the genetic evidence for a south-of-the-Caucasus PIE Urheimat? It had better be pretty convincing, because it has to overcome the linguistic and archaeological evidence, not to mention the actual preponderance of the ancient dna evidence, all of which support a Pontic-Caspian Steppe PIE Urheimat.

Where is all the south-of-the-Caucasus y-dna in the Proto-Indo-Europeans, if the PIE Urheimat was south of the Caucasus? Instead, it's steppe-derived R1b and R1a.

rms2
07-26-2019, 01:51 PM
"no genetic evidence" after I just posted a 2018 video of MPI llainly supporting a south Caucasus homeland. Your delusion is strong.

BTW, that video you posted is Gray talking for a little over three minutes about his linguistic model and makes no more than a passing mention of ancient dna.

Gray's and Atkinson's model has long since been dispensed with. I already explained why.

Agamemnon
07-26-2019, 03:26 PM
"no genetic evidence" after I just posted a 2018 video of MPI llainly supporting a south Caucasus homeland. Your delusion is strong.

Funny how you think this is the first time we've dealt with someone who uses your line of reasoning. Your arguments are not new to us.

rms2
07-26-2019, 03:28 PM
Funny how you think this is the first time we've dealt with someone who uses your line of reasoning. Your arguments are not new to us.

Out of curiosity, I'd like to know his y-dna haplogroup and ethnic origins. You know, just to get some perspective.

Mine are there, yours are there, just for everyone to see. We're pretty transparent.

Agamemnon
07-26-2019, 03:30 PM
Out of curiosity, I'd like to know his y-dna haplogroup and ethnic origins. You know, just to get some perspective.

So you also noticed. The most vehement proponents of the Transcaucasian PIE Homeland have this tendency not to disclose their own background, funny how this stuff works.

David Mc
07-26-2019, 05:40 PM
Funny how you think this is the first time we've dealt with someone who uses your line of reasoning. Your arguments are not new to us.

I have a sneaking suspicion that "Ztech1979" may have been here before under a different name. His arguments and certain turns of phrase, (like, "your delusion is strong" and "Your wishful thinking doesn't heal your wounds) really, really remind me of someone who was banned not too ago, but I can't quite summon the name to mind.

jdean
07-26-2019, 05:51 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that "Ztech1979" may have been here before under a different name. His arguments and certain turns of phrase, (like, "your delusion is strong" and "Your wishful thinking doesn't heal your wounds) really, really remind me of someone who was banned not too ago, but I can't quite summon the name to mind.

One of us will remember : )

Ruderico
07-26-2019, 05:56 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that "Ztech1979" may have been here before under a different name. His arguments and certain turns of phrase, (like, "your delusion is strong" and "Your wishful thinking doesn't heal your wounds) really, really remind me of someone who was banned not too ago, but I can't quite summon the name to mind.

We're monitoring the situation, I ask people to avoid such provocations and to stick to arguments and sources/evidence for whatever it is they support

rms2
07-31-2019, 05:13 PM
I recently heard someone claim there is no reconstructed IE word for ride/riding, therefore the PIE people did not ride horses. But I looked it up, and the reconstructed PIE word for ride/riding is *reidh.

Besides that, as Anthony noted in The Horse The Wheel and Language, there is bit wear evidence for riding on the teeth of ancient horses from the third millennium BC, and there are antler cheek pieces from the same period that surely must have been used for holding bits in place, noted by Gimbutas and others.

rms2
07-31-2019, 05:56 PM
When I was a young kid, I was lucky enough to be around big animals, namely cows and horses. We kids, without much knowledge of history or prehistory, jumped on the backs of cows and horses and tried to ride them, sometimes to our regret. We found that the horses reacted more amiably than the cows.

Based on personal experience, I find it hard to believe that people who domesticated horses waited very long before starting to ride them.

In my experience. little kids even try to ride big dogs, if they have them.

BTW, I had fun even when I was thrown off. Lots of laughs.

Davidtab
08-01-2019, 07:09 AM
How could be explained presence of Iberian horse genetics as far as Hungary so far in time?? Is it coincident with Bell Beaker and mt-haplogroups expansion from West-Central Iberia?? perhaps a parallel horse domestication in Iberia to steppe one?? At least, it is something sorpresive...

rms2
08-01-2019, 01:23 PM
Except that Bell Beaker people did not expand from west central Iberia.

It looks like the Kurgan Bell Beaker people who went into Iberia from the east continued their horse breeding practices there. At the very least they were riding some of the products back to the east as far as the Carpathian Basin, and they may have been engaged in horse trading that ranged across much of Europe.

32101

etrusco
08-01-2019, 04:55 PM
It is not about horses but worth reading anyway


A new contribution from Anthony

https://www.academia.edu/39985565/Ar...ent_on_Bomhard

Bomhard’s hypothesis is that PIE was the result of interference between a substrate related to Northwest Caucasian and a dominant language related to Uralic (pre-Uralic?) that absorbed Caucasus-like elements in phonology, morphology, and lexicon. That kind of interference would imply a long period of widespread bilingualism among the pre-Uralic speakers. The shared lexical cognates that Bomhard lists include kinship terms such as ‘daughter-in-law’, suggesting the occurrence of at least occasional formal intermarriage between the two language communities. I have been asked to outline how this hypothesis might correlate with genetic and archaeological evidence ‘on the ground’ in the Pontic-Caspian-North Caucasus region. Much of my assessment is based on research that has been posted on the public server bioarxiv but is not yet formally published. I accept Mallory’s reading of the current consensus that the Yamnaya expansion, beginning about 3000 BC into both Europe and Asia from the Pontic-Caspian steppes, represented the expansion of late PIE languages (after the separation of Anatolian). Putting aside the questions of how and why that expansion occurred, my topic is the formation and origin of the Yamnaya mating network, as a genetic phenomenon; and secondarily of the Yamnaya culture, beginning about 3300 BC within the Pontic-Caspian steppes, as an archaeological phenomenon. I also assess how pre -Yamnaya genetic and archaeological patterns of interaction might correlate with Bomhard’s hypothesis for early PIE origins

Ral
08-03-2019, 08:56 PM
Of course, linguistic data does'nt speak about domesticated horse among pies. There is a only PIE word for a horse that seems as a wanderwort in the Middle East and Caucas.
But IE and Semites have several common words for animals (goat, donkey, and so on).
Other Eurasian peoples often have their own word for a horse, not related to the IE one (even Dravidian and small Yenisei peoples have own word for a horse).
I am a supporter of the late domestication of horse.
I believe that even horse milk molecules found in Botayan dishes cannot be a reliable marker of horse’s domestication.
As I know, the process of milking horse is very complicated : in early times two men fixed and immobilized a horse and woman do milking. But you can milk a wild / semi-wild horse using that method.
The present-day method of milking mares in Yakutia:
https://youtu.be/qF3gzwKwSYY?t=757

Ral
08-04-2019, 08:27 AM
Basque language:
Horse:
zaldi(male);
behorra (mare) (-related?)

rms2
08-04-2019, 11:45 AM
. . .
I am a supporter of the late domestication of horse . . .

How late?

Keeping horses for their meat and milk rather than merely hunting them is domestication, and the evidence for that is fairly early.

Riding is a different issue, but I think there is good evidence that occurred fairly early, as well, like bit wear on the teeth of horses from the 4th millennium BC, and antler cheek pieces that were pretty obviously used to hold harness and bits in place. It's also true that if people domesticated horses, riding would have made managing them a lot easier.

There is also the prominence of the horse in IE language and ritual, which is hard to explain in the absence of domestication at the very least.

Just out of curiosity, Ral, what is your y-dna haplogroup?

Ral
08-04-2019, 04:39 PM
Just out of curiosity, Ral, what is your y-dna haplogroup?

I don't know, I'm just going to be tested.

Ral
08-04-2019, 04:54 PM
How late?


I don’t know, maybe local groups of people experimented and tamed horses periodically.
As I understand it, a present-day domesticated horse is not related to the Botai horse.


and antler cheek pieces that were pretty obviously used to hold harness and bits in place.

A part of scientists believe that these "pieces of cheeks" have nothing to do with the real cheeks (These are just some
optimistic assumptions regarding pieces of obscure objects found in graves.).

rms2
08-04-2019, 07:33 PM
. . .

A part of scientists believe that these "pieces of cheeks" have nothing to do with the real cheeks (These are just some
optimistic assumptions regarding pieces of obscure objects found in graves.).

The weakness of that argument is that the archaeologists, like Gimbutas, for one, who identified those 4th and 3rd millennium cheek pieces didn't just do it out of the blue. They based their interpretation of the function of those perforated pairs of antler pieces on finds of horse harness and bits from the Iron Age, like, for example, those from the stables at Hasanlu (https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/horse-gear-from-hasanlu/) (c. 800 BC).

In other words, they knew what those Late Neolithic and Bronze Age antler cheek pieces were because newer, more intact examples of bit-and-harness that made use of them have been found.



Burned Building VI, near the main gate to the Citadel, yielded a considerable amount of gear, including a decorated bridle with an iron bit, a pair of antler cheek-pieces, two iron bits, two twisted and wrapped bronze bits, a head-stall with straps decorated with beads, and a wide band of tiny bronze tacks that presumably decorated an object made of perishable material now lost to us. All this gear had apparently been stored on a shelf running the length of the north wall of the main columned room of the building, along with many weapons, a few vessels, and additional items. Other gear was scattered within the period IVB settlement: a bridle with iron bit and antler cheekpieces was apparently dropped in the Upper Courtyard between Burned Buildings I-East and -West, and a bronze bit lay in the area of the Bead House, just south of Burned Building I . . .

These iron bits were almost always associated with antler tine cheekpieces . . .

Some bits with separate cheek-pieces were found without accompanying buttons, so we may assume that their bridles were plain. This is always true for those with iron bits and antler tine cheekpieces, one of which was dropped by the same man who carried the bridle shown in Figure 6, lower right . . .

rms2
08-06-2019, 01:41 PM
Of course, there is the following skeletal evidence that the Kurgan Bell Beaker people were riding horses by the Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age:

Skeleton I0805 (2467-2142 calBC) - osteological evidence of horseback riding, from Mathieson et al, "Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe", Supplementary Information, p. 9.

Skeleton I6581 (2456-2146 calBC) - Poirier’s Facet, frequently found in horse riders, from Olalde et al, "The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe", Supplementary Information, p. 129.

Burial 25004 - femur fracture consistent with a fall from a horse moving at speed, from Fitzpatrick, A. P., The Amesbury Archer and the Boscombe Bowmen, pp. 14, 26. This is sample I2416 (2460-2200 calBC) from Olalde et al, "The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe", Supplementary Information, p. 106.

I don't know if any of the Yamnaya or Corded Ware skeletons were examined for osteological evidence of horseback riding. It would be interesting to find out.

Davidtab
08-07-2019, 07:20 AM
In the SW of Galicia, next to Northern Portugal, there are multiples evidences of horse riding drawed on the rocks, plus men with swords, spears, daggers or shields (so metal materials), dated between 3000 and 2000 ybc:

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/santiago/teo/2016/07/17/piedras-montes-cobran-vida/0003_201607S17C6993.htm

https://www.eldiario.es/galicia/movimientos_sociales/descubrimiento-rupestre-Galicia-revelado-incendios_0_725827882.html

https://casiterides.wordpress.com/tag/petroglifo/

Only some of them.

Ruderico
08-07-2019, 07:30 AM
The last link says it's from the late Bronze Age, 3000 years ago, not 3000bc

Edit: That would put it clearly before celtic migrations took place, making the peoples who carved it probably Lusitanian speaking, considering that's the apparent substratum present in the local celtic languages of the early historical period

rms2
08-07-2019, 02:15 PM
Here are some examples of antler cheek pieces for holding bits and harness in place. One pair is from Dereivka and dates to the second half of the 5th millennium BC. The others are Bronze Age European. You can find pictures of fancier and more intact examples from the Iron Age, like those from various Scythian graves, but the function was the same.

32234 32235

I think the main argument advanced against antler cheek pieces as evidence of horseback riding is not that they weren't what they were but rather that the horses were used to pull carts, wagons, and even chariots, but weren't ridden.

Davidtab
08-07-2019, 07:18 PM
And are there evidences of horse riding somewhere between the Carphatian basin and the Pyrinees since 5000 ybc and 2500 ybc??
Evidences should exist in Central Europe, prior the arriving of Rb1 to Iberia in 2500 ybc.
Ruderico is right, I thought the rider of the third link was older than the horn helmet warrior.

rms2
08-08-2019, 01:38 AM
And are there evidences of horse riding somewhere between the Carphatian basin and the Pyrinees since 5000 ybc and 2500 ybc??
Evidences should exist in Central Europe, prior the arriving of Rb1 to Iberia in 2500 ybc.
Ruderico is right, I thought the rider of the third link was older than the horn helmet warrior.

Of course. See the osteological evidence of horseback riding on Beaker skeletons I mentioned a few posts back.

If I find anything else, I'll let you know. I'm pretty sure there's more, but I haven't hunted it down.

rms2
08-08-2019, 11:21 AM
Here's a relevant quote from page 391 of Marija Gimbutas' book, The Civilization of the Goddess:



Horse bones in a series of sites provide a clue to the mobility of the Bell Beaker people. Analysis of animal bones from the sites at Budapest (Csepel Hollandiut and Csepel-Haros) have shown that the horse was the foremost species of the domestic fauna, constituting more than 60 percent of the total animal bones. This suggests a large-scale domestication of the horse in the Carpathian basin. Bell Beaker migrations were carried out on horseback from central Europe as far as Spain (where horse bones have also been found in Bell Beaker contexts). The horse also played a significant role in religion, as can be seen from the remains of the horse sacrifice where skulls are found in cremation graves.


I know some folks think Gimbutas is old hat, but it seems to me most of what she wrote has been vindicated by ancient dna, whereas the people who mocked her in recent years turned out to be way off.

rms2
08-08-2019, 12:55 PM
Here are a few excerpts from the paper by Ksely, Rene and Peske, Lubomir, "Horse size and domestication: Early equid bones from the Czech Republic in the European context"; Anthropozoologica 51 (1): 15-39.

From page 32:



The Bell-Beaker culture represented by data from Hungary and Austria reveals relatively large horses (Fig. 9). A large variability in size of Bell-Beaker horses from Csepel-Háros (together with high abundance in the assemblage) is commonly believed to reflect domestic status (Bökönyi 1978; Uerpmann 1990; Anthony 2007). Alternatively, the large variability in this site, and the large variability in Czech horses from Vlíněves (Únětice c., with a secondary peak in distribution at this site), could reflect multiple origins of the populations. A statistically significant mutual difference in size between these chronologically proximate sites (Table 5) also supports the idea of multiple origin, which is consistent with the known mobility of Bell Beaker c. (forming the basis for the genesis of Únětice c.; Jiráň & Venclová 2013). The existence of more than one horse type within the Carpathian arch in Bell-Beaker times also stems from new findings from Vienna (Austria; Czeika 2013) and from findings of two skulls of different sizes in one grave (grave 1 at Vyškov, Moravia), estimated to belong to individuals 120 cm and 140 cm high (after Ondráček 1961).


From page 34:



The symbolic status of the horse is demonstrated by two horse craniums found in a grave with human cremation in Vyškov (Moravia, CR; Ondráček 1961) dated to Bell-Beaker culture (the period when Central Europe was very probably already indo-europanised: Mallory 2013; Klyosov & Tomezzoli 2013; Haak et al. 2015) . . .

There is rich evidence of the sacrificing of domestic horses in various Indo-European traditions, probably derived from Proto-Indo-European ritual, and of the importance of myths involving horses in Indo-Europeans (Mallory & Adams 1997, 2006; Anthony & Brown 2003; Kuzmina 2006; Anthony 2007).


From page 35:



The intentional deposition of two horse skulls in a grave (Moravia) together with the large size difference between the skulls supports the notion of the domestic status of the horse in Bell-Beaker culture.


Of course, none of that is absolute proof that Kurgan Bell Beaker people were riding horses, but taken with the other evidence it seems to make the case that they were.

rms2
08-08-2019, 01:02 PM
Sorry for another post so soon, but Outram et al, in the study reported on in "The Earliest Horse Harnessing and Milking", Science, 06 Mar 2009: 1332-1335, found unequivocal evidence of bit wear on the mandibles of Botai horses rc dated to 3521-3363 BC, and evidence the Botai were milking their horses.

From page 1335:



Although existing archaeological evidence for horse domestication at Botai is inconclusive (10), our new skeletal evidence, based on metacarpal metrics, supports the presence of a proportion of domesticated horses in the Botai herds. Moreover, our bitting damage evidence indicates the use of bridles to control working animals and supports assertions that finds of leather thong–producing tools are consistent with horse domestication (6, 7). Finally, evidence for extensive horse carcass product processing in pottery vessels provides direct evidence for their exploitation as a dietary staple. The demonstration of mares' milk processing confirms that at least some of the mares at Botai were domesticated. The fact that horse milking existed in a region remote from the locus of ruminant domestication in the “Fertile Crescent” and in an area seemingly devoid of domestic ruminants indicates that the evolution of strategies for exploiting animals for their milk was not contingent on the adoption of the conventional “agricultural package,” as it appears to have developed independently in the Botai region.

rms2
08-08-2019, 10:48 PM
Looks like I am nearly the only one posting in this thread. I am wondering, given all the evidence, what makes one think Yamnaya people weren't riding their horses.

Seems to me the natural thing to do. When I was a kid, we jumped on the backs of any animals big enough to give us a ride: cows, horses, donkeys, big dogs, etc.

I find it hard to believe that people who domesticated horses would wait over a thousand years to ride them.

spruithean
08-08-2019, 10:53 PM
Looks like I am nearly the only one posting in this thread. I am wondering, given all the evidence, what makes one think Yamnaya people weren't riding their horses.

Seems to me the natural thing to do. When I was a kid, we jumped on the backs of any animals big enough to give us a ride: cows, horses, donkeys, big dogs, etc.

I find it hard to believe that people who domesticated horses would wait over a thousand years to ride them.

Agreed. It'd be like having a bike or a car and not using either of them.

jdean
08-09-2019, 04:06 PM
Looks like I am nearly the only one posting in this thread. I am wondering, given all the evidence, what makes one think Yamnaya people weren't riding their horses.

Seems to me the natural thing to do. When I was a kid, we jumped on the backs of any animals big enough to give us a ride: cows, horses, donkeys, big dogs, etc.

I find it hard to believe that people who domesticated horses would wait over a thousand years to ride them.

My in-law's goats managed to work out how to ride their donkeys in a relatively short space of time and I'm pretty sure the donkeys weren't broken : )

It also didn't take very long for the donkeys to work out that if you needed to get a goat off your back the easiest way was to walk under an apple tree : )))

Generalissimo
08-09-2019, 08:27 PM
Horses were probably ridden almost as soon as they were domesticated, and they were definitely domesticated at least as early as the Bronze Age in multiple regions, such as the Kazakh steppe, Pontic-Caspian steppe and Iberia.

But I don't think that horse riding was systematically used for anything until the Scythian period, and, I suspect, this is why chariots were so popular from the Middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age.

So the Scythians must have come up with something specific to be able to do this, but I don't know what that was. They certainly didn't have stirrups, which came during the Middle Ages.

Kanenas
08-09-2019, 09:02 PM
In the Homeric tradition, Enetians (the people who for some reason seem to have given their name to some of the Slavs) were famous for their horses and they were associated with the region of Paphlagonia.

I have the impression that supposedly the first who used 'Enetian horses' in chariot race in Greece was Leon the Lacedaimonian around 424 BC.

Ral
08-10-2019, 07:43 AM
Horses were probably ridden almost as soon as they were domesticated, and they were definitely domesticated at least as early as the Bronze Age in multiple regions, such as the Kazakh steppe, Pontic-Caspian steppe and Iberia.

But I don't think that horse riding was systematically used for anything until the Scythian period, and, I suspect, this is why chariots were so popular from the Middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age.



Yes, probably from the three points of my opposing strategy (1. Denial of early domestication. 2 Denial of early riding. 3. Denial of the great importance of riding) the third point will be the most correct: until the Iron Age, horseback riding was local and limited. This is very strange for "super-important technology" born several thousand years earlier.



So the Scythians must have come up with something specific to be able to do this, but I don't know what that was. They certainly didn't have stirrups, which came during the Middle Ages.
Here is a very easy answer.
Scythian nomads almost lived on horses. This is a single numerous branch of an army("cavalery") that they could to have because of their lifestyle, not because of its super-efficiency.
Do not forget that a average settled cattle breeder-farmer has a dilemma due to limited resources: how much and what type of cattle to keep. Average settled farmer will not keep a horses only for his children can ride them or only for using them in sudden war.

rms2
08-10-2019, 01:27 PM
Horses were probably ridden almost as soon as they were domesticated, and they were definitely domesticated at least as early as the Bronze Age in multiple regions, such as the Kazakh steppe, Pontic-Caspian steppe and Iberia.

But I don't think that horse riding was systematically used for anything until the Scythian period, and, I suspect, this is why chariots were so popular from the Middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age.

So the Scythians must have come up with something specific to be able to do this, but I don't know what that was. They certainly didn't have stirrups, which came during the Middle Ages.

I'm guessing by "systematically" you mean in some sort of highly organized way. I agree that early steppe pastoralists did not have highly organized cavalry, with strictly disciplined units obeying the specific orders of leaders, etc.

But I do think they were loosely organized under tribal leaders and conducted raids on horseback, perhaps even acting as mounted infantry, i.e., riding to the scene of the raid or conflict, dismounting to fight, and then remounting to make a swift getaway.

They certainly knew how to ride horses to herd animals, including other horses.

IMHO, this was perhaps the chief advantage of the steppe people: the vastly increased speed and mobility they enjoyed as a consequence of having mastered the horse.

rms2
08-10-2019, 02:55 PM
You know, I haven't really delved into the historiography of the horseback riding question, so what follows are just my impressions. Needless to say, they could be wrong.

Anyway, it seems to me the chief champion of the idea that humans only started riding horses relatively recently is Robert Drews, a scholar now 83 years old. My impression is that his argument came along at about the same time as the anti-migrationist, immobilist argument was gaining ascendance, and that the two things go hand-in-hand. There was a kind of arrogant tone in both of superiority to the "old" notions of people like Childe, Hubert, and Gimbutas, a kind of snide mockery of what was parodied as the idea that the "heroic Aryans" rode in out of the east on thundering stallions, etc. Immobilism and pedestrianism (the latter being my name for Drews' late riding idea) were presented as the latest, the most modern and advanced interpretations in archaeological and historical thought.

Looks like both have been shown to be wrong in recent years.

jdean
08-10-2019, 05:12 PM
You know, I haven't really delved into the historiography of the horseback riding question, so what follows are just my impressions. Needless to say, they could be wrong.

Anyway, it seems to me the chief champion of the idea that humans only started riding horses relatively recently is Robert Drews, a scholar now 83 years old. My impression is that his argument came along at about the same time as the anti-migrationist, immobilist argument was gaining ascendance, and that the two things go hand-in-hand. There was a kind of arrogant tone in both of superiority to the "old" notions of people like Childe, Hubert, and Gimbutas, a kind of snide mockery of what was parodied as the idea that the "heroic Aryans" rode in out of the east on thundering stallions, etc. Immobilism and pedestrianism (the latter being my name for Drews' late riding idea) were presented as the latest, the most modern and advanced interpretations in archaeological and historical thought.

Looks like both have been shown to be wrong in recent years.

I can certainly see how academics pushing anti migration would also argue against innovation in travel.

'Pedestrianism', I like that : ))))

Kanenas
08-10-2019, 05:29 PM
'Minoans' had horses and also the sources indicate a class of equestrians.

That seal may indicate something about their phenotypes.
https://www.bmimages.com/pr/810073413/BMImages_00069322001_preview.jpg

Also, Herodotus mentions some people called Sigynnae, beyond the Danube. His understanding was that, in a way, their small size made it necessary to yoke them to chariots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigynnae

rms2
08-10-2019, 06:21 PM
'Minoans' had horses and also the sources indicate a class of equestrians.

That seal may indicate something about their phenotypes.
https://www.bmimages.com/pr/810073413/BMImages_00069322001_preview.jpg

Also, Herodotus mentions some people called Sigynnae, beyond the Danube. His understanding was that, in a way, their small size made it necessary to yoke them to chariots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigynnae

I don't know much about the Sigynnae, but Botai, Yamnaya, and Kurgan Bell Beaker had horses that were big enough to be ridden.

BTW, somehow the image of the seal you were trying to post doesn't show up for me.

Huck Finn
08-10-2019, 06:57 PM
So the Scythians must have come up with something specific to be able to do this, but I don't know what that was. They certainly didn't have stirrups, which came during the Middle Ages.
Sort of horse whips, instead of stirrups, are typical at least in Finnish IA context. According to a local, well known archeologist, it is an eastern feature.

rms2
08-10-2019, 07:17 PM
Although I guess it's possible to rustle cattle on foot, it would be much much easier to do on horseback. Given the centrality of the cattle raid in Indo-European myth, rustling must have been a pretty common occurrence. (Add to that the centrality of the horse in Indo-European myth and ritual.)

Does anyone really believe the Proto-Indo-Europeans were rustling cattle on foot and getting away with it?

jdean
08-11-2019, 12:57 AM
Does anyone really believe the Proto-Indo-Europeans were rustling cattle on foot and getting away with it?

Even if they were merely just raising cattle, in an open landscape without fences, it would have been hard work, but if they did domesticate horses, which apparently isn't too contentious, it's hard to imagine how they would have coped on just shanks pony.

rms2
08-11-2019, 01:02 AM
Even if they were merely just raising cattle, in an open landscape without fences, it would have been hard work, but if they did domesticate horses, which apparently isn't too contentious, it's hard to imagine how they would have coped on just shanks pony.

Exactly right. Imagine running around trying to herd horses on foot.

Good grief!

Generalissimo
08-11-2019, 02:27 AM
Even if they were merely just raising cattle, in an open landscape without fences, it would have been hard work, but if they did domesticate horses, which apparently isn't too contentious, it's hard to imagine how they would have coped on just shanks pony.

Steppe people already had access to rather fast wagons during the Steppe Maykop era, so they may have mostly relied on herding cattle with wagons.

Otherwise it's hard to explain how these sorts of "high speed" accidents occurred, if it was during travel across the steppe from A to B. Clearly this guy was trying to do something fancy in his cart...

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/03/an-exceptional-burial-indeed-but-not.html

rms2
08-11-2019, 02:44 AM
Steppe people already had access to rather fast wagons during the Steppe Maykop era, so they may have mostly relied on herding cattle with wagons.

Otherwise it's hard to explain how these sorts of "high speed" accidents occurred, if it was during travel across the steppe from A to B. Clearly this guy was trying to do something fancy in his cart...

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/03/an-exceptional-burial-indeed-but-not.html

Maybe, but why the apparent reluctance to accept the idea that the PIE people were actually riding horses and using them for herding and other activities?

Riding seems to me easier and more natural than wagon, cart or chariot building, especially fast, maneuverable wagon, cart or chariot building.

We know they had bits and harness for controlling horses by the middle of the 5th millennium BC.

Maybe one can herd cattle from a wagon, but it seems to me herding cattle and especially horses from the back of a horse is much easier and more natural.

Generalissimo
08-11-2019, 03:16 AM
Maybe, but why the apparent reluctance to accept the idea that the PIE people were actually riding horses and using them for herding and other activities?

Riding seems to me easier and more natural than wagon, cart or chariot building, especially fast, maneuverable wagon, cart or chariot building.

We know they had bits and harness for controlling horses by the middle of the 5th millennium BC.

Maybe one can herd cattle from a wagon, but it seems to me herding cattle and especially horses from the back of a horse is much easier and more natural.

They seemed to like wagons, and they could readily build very sophisticated models, because such carts were used all over the Caspian steppe by the time Yamnaya emerged.

But there are few horse burials anywhere on the steppe until the Sintashta period, and it's still not 100% clear that these horses were by and large domesticates. That's why it's still such a hot issue.

jdean
08-11-2019, 12:42 PM
This conversation reminds me of the idea that it would be impossible to use a bow from horseback until the development of compound bows. I asked a friend a while back for his thoughts, he's taught archery for years and makes his own long bows (cabinet maker by trade), he couldn't see why there should be an issue.

Webb
08-11-2019, 01:48 PM
From Wiki:

“Mongol horses are of a stocky build, with relatively short but strong legs and a large head. They weigh about 600 lbs.[1] and range in size from 12 to 14 hands (48 to 56 inches, 122 to 142 cm) high.”

“The typical Thoroughbred ranges from 15.2 to 17.0 hands (62 to 68 inches, 157 to 173 cm) high, averaging 16 hands (64 inches, 163 cm).”

“The average height of a Chincoteague Pony is between 12 and 13 hands (any horse that stands less than 14 hands is considered a Pony).”

“The average height of a mustang is 14 hands. Mustangs are a feral species, meaning they went from being domesticated to being wild.”

The Mongolian horse is not very big. This is the normal phenotype of the horse. Anything larger than this is due to selective breeding, and most horses that have returned to the wild quickly change phenotype back to a normal size, depending on diet. The Chincoteague ponies are on the smaller side because of the type grass they eat.

Generalissimo
08-11-2019, 01:57 PM
This conversation reminds me of the idea that it would be impossible to use a bow from horseback until the development of compound bows. I asked a friend a while back for his thoughts, he's taught archery for years and makes his own long bows (cabinet maker by trade), he couldn't see why there should be an issue.

Never said it was impossible, just said that there's no evidence that it was widespread during the Bronze Age.

There must be a reason why wagon burials outnumber likely domesticated horse finds on the Caspian steppe during the Early Bronze Age, and that later, during the Sintashta period, horse finds are much more common, but they're closely associated with chariots.

So it's a very different situation to the one during the Scythian period.

Webb
08-11-2019, 02:10 PM
Never said it was impossible, just said that there's no evidence that it was widespread during the Bronze Age.

There must be a reason why wagon burials outnumber likely domesticated horse finds on the Caspian steppe during the Early Bronze Age, and that later, during the Sintashta period, horse finds are much more common, but they're closely associated with chariots.

So it's a very different situation to the one during the Scythian period.

The chariot may have been more for comfort. There are many pictures of Mongolians on horse back with their feet close to the ground out of stirrups. So a man at 6 feet or taller might not be able to ride comfortably. A chariot might be a better option. The move from domestication to selective breeding might have been a long way off.

jdean
08-11-2019, 02:22 PM
Never said it was impossible, just said that there's no evidence that it was widespread during the Bronze Age.

There must be a reason why wagon burials outnumber likely domesticated horse finds on the Caspian steppe during the Early Bronze Age, and that later, during the Sintashta period, horse finds are much more common, but they're closely associated with chariots.

So it's a very different situation to the one during the Scythian period.

Possibly being buried with a wagon was flasher ?

rms2
08-11-2019, 02:23 PM
. . .
There must be a reason why wagon burials outnumber likely domesticated horse finds on the Caspian steppe during the Early Bronze Age
. . .

No offense, but I don't see how that can possibly be true, given the number of horse bones recovered at Yamnaya and other steppe sites and the strong evidence the Botai had domesticated horses by the middle of the 4th millennium BC and probably earlier.

Then there is all the other evidence for early domestication: bit wear, antler cheek pieces, evidence horses were being milked, horse sacrifice, the prominence of the horse in PIE myth and ritual and in male names, etc.

Naturally there will be more evidence the farther forward one moves in time.

rms2
08-11-2019, 02:35 PM
The chariot may have been more for comfort. There are many pictures of Mongolians on horse back with their feet close to the ground out of stirrups. So a man at 6 feet or taller might not be able to ride comfortably. A chariot might be a better option. The move from domestication to selective breeding might have been a long way off.

Kurgan Bell Beaker horses were fairly large, for example, over 140 cm (4.58 feet) at the withers, which is plenty big for riding, even for a tall man.

Ral
08-11-2019, 05:20 PM
Roman Empire 5th century BC.
The ratio of foot warriors and cavalrymen: 10: 1.
This is probably the optimal ratio for military purposes and military tactics of this state

Ral
08-11-2019, 05:43 PM
Maybe, but why the apparent reluctance to accept the idea that the PIE people were actually riding horses and using them for herding and other activities?

how do you imagine the lifestyle of ancient peoples?
After all, they did not travel in present sense. Property and family are easier to transport in carts. Horseback riding was not much needed.

jdean
08-11-2019, 06:13 PM
First time I saw this I was really amused but now it's so commonplace I hardly raise an eyebrow

32357

Of course the advantage is obvious, as good as campervans are for getting you from A to B with all your belongings they're shit for popping to the shops in : )

jdean
08-11-2019, 07:26 PM
Back in the day

32358

a work in progress.

Possibly this was state of the art transportation when the Anatolians went their merry way ?

Webb
08-11-2019, 11:54 PM
Kurgan Bell Beaker horses were fairly large, for example, over 140 cm (4.58 feet) at the withers, which is plenty big for riding, even for a tall man.

That was actually my point in the post about average hands of typical horse phenotype. Which do you think would be easier to deal with, a large aggressive auroch with horns orca little less aggressive horse that is 4.5 feet tall measured to its shoulder blades? The idea that the horse is somehow more of an enigma than a large, horned, cantankerous bovine is a bit of a mystery to me.

Webb
08-12-2019, 12:11 AM
To follow up about the chariot. It may have been reserved for elite or high ranking individuals. I would think logistically trying to maneuver a large group of chariots in tight formation would be disastrous.

Generalissimo
08-12-2019, 02:48 AM
To follow up about the chariot. It may have been reserved for elite or high ranking individuals. I would think logistically trying to maneuver a large group of chariots in tight formation would be disastrous.

Whole empires were built on maneuvering large groups of chariots in tight formations (Hittite, Egyptian and so on).

razyn
08-12-2019, 03:33 AM
Whole empires were built on maneuvering large groups of chariots in tight formations (Hittite, Egyptian and so on).

One may still doubt that large cattle ranches were built that way. And I do.

Generalissimo
08-12-2019, 04:35 AM
One may still doubt that large cattle ranches were built that way. And I do.

https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/files/2001/03/horse_chariot_drawing.jpg

https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/early-herders-of-the-eurasian-steppe/

Chad Rohlfsen
08-12-2019, 07:27 AM
The wagons were their houses and not for herding. Migration patterns were studied long ago, with Yamnaya not moving more than a few dozen km between winter and summer camps. You can easily herd cattle by foot. We always did. Sheep too.

jdean
08-12-2019, 08:27 AM
The wagons were their houses and not for herding. Migration patterns were studied long ago, with Yamnaya not moving more than a few dozen km between winter and summer camps. You can easily herd cattle by foot. We always did. Sheep too.

Something I was trying to point out : )

WRT movement, the Yamnaya were know to participate in a certain amount of tribal fighting which presumably would require traveling a little faster than a few km between seasons? Also when CW decamped that would have been a little less leisurely, though granted it would have also involved their wagons.

Generalissimo
08-12-2019, 10:53 AM
The wagons were their houses and not for herding. Migration patterns were studied long ago, with Yamnaya not moving more than a few dozen km between winter and summer camps. You can easily herd cattle by foot. We always did. Sheep too.

Right, that's why they killed themselves sometimes by going too fast. They fell asleep in their houses.

alexfritz
08-12-2019, 11:21 AM
i just have this map(german) based on kristiansen and larsson which details the so-called 'wagon complex' of eurasia it begins with the ox wagons and culminates in the horse-chariots of the sintashta-petrowka culture however app the sintashta already had a frontrunner labeled 'horse-sleds' which they combined with the old wagons of the ox

https://i.imgur.com/hq3WMmp.png

jdean
08-12-2019, 11:31 AM
Right, that's why they killed themselves sometimes by going too fast. They fell asleep in their houses.

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why they may have driven their carts in a less cautious manor, simply for the hell of it springs to mind but who knows maybe that fellow was just trying to postpone a conversation with his future brother in law : )

Generalissimo
08-12-2019, 12:02 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why they may have driven their carts in a less cautious manor, simply for the hell of it springs to mind but who knows maybe that fellow was just trying to postpone a conversation with his future brother in law : )

Dude, that guy was a pro wagon driver who had at least two major high speed accidents. He recovered from the first one and died in the second.

What were pro high speed wagon drivers doing on the steppe? Racing? More likely he had a lot of expensive cows to round up, and they were going the wrong way.

jdean
08-12-2019, 12:13 PM
Dude, that guy was a pro wagon driver who had at least two major high speed accidents. He recovered from the first one and died in the second.

What were pro high speed wagon drivers doing on the steppe? Racing? More likely he had a lot of expensive cows to round up, and they were going the wrong way.

Much as I respect your opinion (and I really do) this strikes me as an unlikely way to round cows up, anyhow this particular conversation is only going to go round in circles so I'm going to shut up : )

David Mc
08-12-2019, 06:24 PM
Dude, that guy was a pro wagon driver who had at least two major high speed accidents. He recovered from the first one and died in the second.

What were pro high speed wagon drivers doing on the steppe? Racing? More likely he had a lot of expensive cows to round up, and they were going the wrong way.

I lived in Kazakhstan for a few years in the late '90's. The Kazakhs, (and the Mongols), are probably the best proxy we have for the movement of early steppe nomads. Those Kazakhs who still live the life herd with horses and use wagons to move their yurts, families, and possessions. The wagons are capable of some speed when driving in a straight line. They would be dangerous in a fast turn and useless for herding. My guess is your pro-driver took a turn too quickly, maybe racing, maybe just letting impatience get the better of him.

Either way, the idea that a nomadic herds-people would use horses to pull wagons and not ride them seems beyond unlikely.

Coldmountains
08-12-2019, 07:59 PM
I lived in Kazakhstan for a few years in the late '90's. The Kazakhs, (and the Mongols), are probably the best proxy we have for the movement of early steppe nomads. Those Kazakhs who still live the life herd with horses and use wagons to move their yurts, families, and possessions. The wagons are capable of some speed when driving in a straight line. They would be dangerous in a fast turn and useless for herding. My guess is your pro-driver took a turn too quickly, maybe racing, maybe just letting impatience get the better of him.

Either way, the idea that a nomadic herds-people would use horses to pull wagons and not ride them seems beyond unlikely.

Yamnaya and early PIEs were not nomads. They were pastoralists yes but often practised some basic agriculture too. Kazakhs or Mongols are not a ideal proxy for the earliest steppe people.

etrusco
08-12-2019, 08:13 PM
Yamnaya and early PIEs were not nomads. They were pastoralists yes but often practised some basic agriculture too. Kazakhs or Mongols are not a ideal proxy for the earliest steppe people.


True even tough I would say that Yamanaya did see indeed a strong shift towards pastoralism the PIE folks were likely more sedentary that the Yamanaya


From Encyclopedia of IE culture:


.......From this we can see that there is no case whatsoever for assuming that the ancestors of all the Indo-European stocks did not know cereal agriculture. While there may have been speculation in the past as to whether some terms might have applied originally to the gathering and processing of wild plants, terms for the plow, cultivated field, and techniques appropriate to the processing of domesticated cereals whose home range lay outside of most of Europe, suggest that all the earliest Indo-Europeans knew agriculture before their dispersals.

Ruderico
08-12-2019, 08:14 PM
Yamnaya and early PIEs were not nomads. They were pastoralists yes but often practised some basic agriculture too. Kazakhs or Mongols are not a ideal proxy for the earliest steppe people.

Indeed, and neither are modern horses comparable to those 5000 years ago, a lot of change through selective breeding happened




Either way, the idea that a nomadic herds-people would use horses to pull wagons and not ride them seems beyond unlikely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_horse
They could use oxen, though

David Mc
08-12-2019, 08:36 PM
Yamnaya and early PIEs were not nomads. They were pastoralists yes but often practised some basic agriculture too. Kazakhs or Mongols are not a ideal proxy for the earliest steppe people.

Alright. It's fair to expect precision of language in this kind of discussion. The Kazakhs (and Mongols) were technically semi-nomadic pastoralists. Much of their time was spent on the move, but they had winter encampments/cities which were built along key trade routes and allowed for limited agriculture, although the farming itself was typically done by slaves. The Kazakh propensity for slave-raiding in Russian territory is partly why Russia would eventually move against the Kazakhs.

As such, and in this sense (the varied use of horse and wagon), I would suggest they are in fact an ideal proxy for the early PIE's.

Alain
08-12-2019, 09:04 PM
Yamnaya and early PIEs were not nomads. They were pastoralists yes but often practised some basic agriculture too. Kazakhs or Mongols are not a ideal proxy for the earliest steppe people.


A reportage in German TV and the newest study by Danish research team say that the Yamna rode on horses and were in contact with you the Botai people

Agamemnon
08-12-2019, 09:36 PM
Yamnaya and early PIEs were not nomads. They were pastoralists yes but often practised some basic agriculture too. Kazakhs or Mongols are not a ideal proxy for the earliest steppe people.

The appropriate term is "semi-nomadic pastoralists".

razyn
08-12-2019, 09:53 PM
Just by way of a footnote, we had much of this conversation four years ago, but with a good bit less information at hand. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5881-Horse-Riding-in-Bell-Beaker-and-Corded-Ware&p=122722&viewfull=1#post122722

Generalissimo
08-12-2019, 10:32 PM
I lived in Kazakhstan for a few years in the late '90's. The Kazakhs, (and the Mongols), are probably the best proxy we have for the movement of early steppe nomads. Those Kazakhs who still live the life herd with horses and use wagons to move their yurts, families, and possessions. The wagons are capable of some speed when driving in a straight line. They would be dangerous in a fast turn and useless for herding. My guess is your pro-driver took a turn too quickly, maybe racing, maybe just letting impatience get the better of him.

Either way, the idea that a nomadic herds-people would use horses to pull wagons and not ride them seems beyond unlikely.

Actually, the evidence from the steppe is that they mostly used cattle to pull their wagons. Horses were used to pull chariots. Like I said, burials of likely domesticated horses are few and far in between on the steppe before Sintashta.

So yes, there may have been widespread horse riding on the steppe during the Bronze Age and earlier, and yes, herding may have been done mostly on horses or on foot.

But of course none of this explains the data, which shows that wagons and chariots reached a very high level of development on the steppe during the Bronze Age, while the idea that there was widespread use of domesticated horses remains an idea that hasn't been tested properly yet.

Here's a video on the topic that you might find useful...

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/09/major-horse-paper-coming-soon.html

jdean
08-13-2019, 12:19 AM
open question I asked my daughter who's worked on livestock farms since her early teens.

Me- 'how difficult would it be to heard cattle on a flat open landscape without fences'
Daughter- 'As long as you had enough people with quad bikes and horses not to difficult.

Me- 'quad bikes aren't allowed and apparently these people couldn't ride horses' - then a short discussion about this conversation
Daughter- 'It would be tricky, they need something to follow.'

I might add she has a very able sheep dog but didn't mention him, I should have asked why.

Generalissimo
08-13-2019, 01:26 AM
open question I asked my daughter who's worked on livestock farms since her early teens.

Me- 'how difficult would it be to heard cattle on a flat open landscape without fences'
Daughter- 'As long as you had enough people with quad bikes and horses not to difficult.

Me- 'quad bikes aren't allowed and apparently these people couldn't ride horses' - then a short discussion about this conversation
Daughter- 'It would be tricky, they need something to follow.'

I might add she has a very able sheep dog but didn't mention him, I should have asked why.

What was the closest thing to a quad bike on the Bronze Age steppe?

David Mc
08-13-2019, 01:53 AM
Actually, the evidence from the steppe is that they mostly used cattle to pull their wagons. Horses were used to pull chariots. Like I said, burials of likely domesticated horses are few and far in between on the steppe before Sintashta.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here... The Kazakhs would often use oxen or cattle to pull huge wagons carrying their yurts as well. They would use horses or camels to carry or pull goods as well albeit for smaller loads. Just for the fun of it, a modern example of the latter with me riding shotgun.


32382

David Mc
08-13-2019, 01:56 AM
And for the fun of it as well, riding a Kazakh horse in the foothills of the Tien Shan mountains in South Kazakhstan. I think this was 1999.

32383

David Mc
08-13-2019, 02:04 AM
Actually, the evidence from the steppe is that they mostly used cattle to pull their wagons. Horses were used to pull chariots. Like I said, burials of likely domesticated horses are few and far in between on the steppe before Sintashta.[/url]

As a sub-point, cattle can't pull wagons very quickly, at least not for sustained distances. It's more likely that your Maykop pro-wagoneer either took a fall from a horse-pulled cart or maybe even took a fall from horseback. The only reason to think it as the former, I suppose, is he was buried with a wagon? This may all be explained in the video you linked. I haven't seen it yet, alas.

oz
08-13-2019, 02:23 AM
Even a goose can herd cattle

https://youtu.be/aeOVE9jjk0o

Generalissimo
08-13-2019, 02:32 AM
As a sub-point, cattle can't pull wagons very quickly, at least not for sustained distances. It's more likely that your Maykop pro-wagoneer either took a fall from a horse-pulled cart or maybe even took a fall from horseback. The only reason to think it as the former, I suppose, is he was buried with a wagon? This may all be explained in the video you linked. I haven't seen it yet, alas.

There would therefore have been limited ways, other than involving a wagon, in which a serious fall could have
been sustained. Herding of bovines and caprids, as well as the first use of bovines as draft animals, is also evidenced in the period
(Hollund et al., 2010; Kohl, 2007), so modern clinical literature dealing with injuries from encounters with animals should also be
considered. However, horses can be excluded, as the first evidence for their widespread domestication and use for riding by herders in
the steppe was during the Middle Bronze Age (Kohl, 2007; Shishlina, 2008), although they were used as food in a much earlier period
(Rassamakin, 1999). Finally, interpersonal violence, evidence for which has been recorded in other individuals from burials analysed
as part of the wider research project, should also be considered as a possible mechanism.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317291105_An_Accident_at_Work_Traumatic_lesions_in _the_skeleton_of_a_4th_millennium_BCE_wagon_driver _from_Sharakhalsun_Russia

Alain
08-13-2019, 03:32 AM
https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/terra-x/equus-die-geschichte-von-mensch-und-pferd-100.html

But in German language
Topic about

-Botai people
-Yamna culture

Alain
08-13-2019, 04:56 AM
But last research,


Although it is west of central asia, there is a possibility of surtanda culture in east Ural where sintashta located. As far as I know, the surtanda culture has horse and cattle bones and their geometrical pottery is related with south caucasus's and sintashta pottery.

Let's just say Eurasia then everyone is happy or Uralic Steppe area🙂

jdean
08-13-2019, 07:41 AM
What was the closest thing to a quad bike on the Bronze Age steppe?

A horse, though as somebody who uses quads recreationally just pointed out to me there is a similarity with a horse and cart in that both will turn over if you do something wrong.

jdean
08-13-2019, 07:48 AM
There would therefore have been limited ways, other than involving a wagon, in which a serious fall could have
been sustained. Herding of bovines and caprids, as well as the first use of bovines as draft animals, is also evidenced in the period
(Hollund et al., 2010; Kohl, 2007), so modern clinical literature dealing with injuries from encounters with animals should also be
considered. However, horses can be excluded, as the first evidence for their widespread domestication and use for riding by herders in
the steppe was during the Middle Bronze Age (Kohl, 2007; Shishlina, 2008), although they were used as food in a much earlier period
(Rassamakin, 1999). Finally, interpersonal violence, evidence for which has been recorded in other individuals from burials analysed
as part of the wider research project, should also be considered as a possible mechanism.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317291105_An_Accident_at_Work_Traumatic_lesions_in _the_skeleton_of_a_4th_millennium_BCE_wagon_driver _from_Sharakhalsun_Russia

Isn't this a circular argument, we know it wasn't a riding accident because we know they didn't ride horse back then and therefore it wasn't a riding accident : )

Generalissimo
08-13-2019, 08:25 AM
Isn't this a circular argument, we know it wasn't a riding accident because we know they didn't ride horse back then and therefore it wasn't a riding accident : )

I can't say what happened, since I don't know much about the topic or this particular case, and I can't test anything directly with any genetic data, but the authors of this paper do put together a convincing argument based on archeoogical and forensic data that this guy was a wagon driver who had at least one major accident on the job.

Davidtab
08-13-2019, 11:16 AM
A lot of people die because of tractor accident (no speed): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnBkGBOFtRc

It´s not about speed, you can be very serious damaged when a wagon overturns, for example.

My 4 grandparents used wagons with oxes in the fields until the 60´s (XXth century). Many types of accident can occur with oxes and wagons, and speed is minimum.

http://elcorreoweb.es/maspasion/video-el-carretero-de-gelves-es-arrollado-por-sus-bueyes-en-villamanrique-DH5548555

If you run a chariot with a pair of horses... accident musted be incredible frecuent, I believe even more than in case of horse riding.

rms2
08-13-2019, 01:24 PM
Maybe I'm easily baffled, but I am baffled by the reluctance to admit that early steppe people were riding horses, given all the evidence and just the simple, common sense realization that climbing onto the back of a horse is a natural thing to do, more natural than constructing carts, wagons, and chariots.

We know there was osteological evidence of horseback riding among Kurgan Bell Beaker people by the second half of the third millennium BC. I'm guessing one would have to spend a lot of time on the back of a horse for it to show up in his bones, and I doubt horseback riding was invented by Beaker people.

rms2
08-14-2019, 01:35 PM
This conversation reminds me of the idea that it would be impossible to use a bow from horseback until the development of compound bows. I asked a friend a while back for his thoughts, he's taught archery for years and makes his own long bows (cabinet maker by trade), he couldn't see why there should be an issue.

This is an interesting bit of video, if too short.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcpHB-flwJQ

rms2
08-14-2019, 01:54 PM
Lest anyone think a saddle and stirrups are absolutely necessary, there's the video below (remember that this represents this gentleman's first foray into shooting a bow from horseback).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5spz8g6q5Ig

Here's another one. The young woman spends a few minutes getting her horse used to the idea, so you can skip ahead to about 5:40 in the video. She's not using a longbow, but she's not using a saddle, stirrups or even a bridle either.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19VPiN5XLQ

SakaDo
01-10-2020, 06:05 PM
Actually we have such a PIE word for horse, which can connect Europeans as a root/source here.

In the "Nominalia of the Bulgarian Kanac" we find the forms Isperih and Esperih, and in a medieval apocryphal an old ruler is called Ispar king.
And of course Asparuh Kanac U Bigi.
the name of Paeonian King Autl-esbis, as well as the toponym Ar-isba mentioned by Homer, and concludes that esbis, isba are alternative Thracian words for horse.
We have that root and in the name of the Phrygian nobleman Asvios, mentioned by Homer, we find another Thracian word for horse, that is - asva.
Ut-aspios and Ved-espis are epithets of Heros/Thracian horseman, the supreme deity of the Thracians.

In Sanskrit aśvāroha
1. rider
2. Aśva - अश्व, in addition to "horse" means "archer" (incl. Sagittarius zodiac), and roha - रोह e and "shooting", "riding"

aspa, (aspios), espis, esbis, isba, asva are different Thracian names for horse. The considerable number of variations is
due to the fact that our Thracians were a huge people consisting of many groups, each group having its own dialect.
one of the Thracian words - aspa is identical to the Avestan (Old Iranian) word aspa-horse.
The fluctuation between A and E is typical of the Thracian language and of course Bulgarian.
This was explained more than thirty years ago by Academician Vl. Georgiev. This scientist also
mentioned another phonetic phenomenon characteristic of the Thracian, namely the transition of E to I.

the meaning of the Thracian word aspios / espis is speed, and an explanation can be obtained with the help of oldbg. спѣхъ-speed спѣшѫ- hurry,
whose more ancient form was *aспѣхъ, aспѣшѫ
The link also shows the σπέυδω / σπεῦσε used by Homer -hurry, run, speed.

parasar
01-11-2020, 06:00 AM
Lest anyone think a saddle and stirrups are absolutely necessary, there's the video below (remember that this represents this gentleman's first foray into shooting a bow from horseback).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5spz8g6q5Ig

Here's another one. The young woman spends a few minutes getting her horse used to the idea, so you can skip ahead to about 5:40 in the video. She's not using a longbow, but she's not using a saddle, stirrups or even a bridle either.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19VPiN5XLQ

RE saddle:
"They have neither saddles nor bridles for their horses, like those the Graecians or Celtae make use of"
"The Indians wear linen garments, as Nearchus says, the linen coming from the trees of which I have already made mention. This linen is either brighter than the whiteness of other linen, or the people's own blackness makes it appear unusually bright. They have a linen tunic to the middle of the calf, and for outer garments, one thrown round about their shoulders, and one wound round their heads. They wear ivory ear-rings, that is, the rich Indians; the common people do not use them. Nearchus writes that they dye their beards various colours; some therefore have these as white-looking as possible, others dark, others crimson, others purple, others grass-green. The more dignified Indians use sunshades against the summer heat. They have slippers of white skin, and these too made neatly; and the soles of their sandals are of different colours, and also high, so that the wearers seem taller. Indian war equipment differs; the infantry have a bow, of the height of the owner; this they poise on the ground, and set their left foot against it, and shoot thus; drawing the bowstring a very long way back; for their arrows are little short of three cubits, and nothing can stand against an arrow shot by an Indian archer, neither shield nor breastplate nor any strong armour. In their left hands they carry small shields of untanned hide, narrower than their bearers, but not much shorter. Some have javelins in place of bows. All carry a broad scimitar, its length not under three cubits; and this, when they have a hand-to-hand fight -- and Indians do not readily fight so among themselves -- they bring down with both hands in smiting, so that the stroke may be an effective one. Their horsemen have two javelins, like lances, and a small shield smaller than the infantry's. The horses have no saddles, nor do they use Greek bits nor any like the Celtic bits, but round the end of the horses' mouths they have an untanned stitched rein fitted; in this they have fitted, on the inner side, bronze or iron spikes, but rather blunted; the rich people have ivory spikes; within the mouth of the horses is a bit, like a spit, to either end of which the reins are attached. Then when they tighten the reins this bit masters the horse, and the spikes, being attached thereto, prick the horse and compel it to obey the rein.
VII. The Indians in shape are thin and tall and much lighter in movement than the rest of mankind. They usually ride on camels, horses, and asses; the richer men on elephants. For the elephant in India is a royal mount; then next in dignity is a four-horse chariot, and camels come third; to ride on a single horse is low."

rms2
01-11-2020, 12:23 PM
My youngest daughter and I got to ride an elephant together at a circus once. It was one of the most fun things I've ever done.

Gee
01-11-2020, 12:41 PM
Its interesting to get to know that european horses originated from east horses. But it's no suprise, since most things originated from the east.

SakaDo
01-12-2020, 12:25 PM
Horses were probably ridden almost as soon as they were domesticated, and they were definitely domesticated at least as early as the Bronze Age in multiple regions, such as the Kazakh steppe, Pontic-Caspian steppe and Iberia.

But I don't think that horse riding was systematically used for anything until the Scythian period, and, I suspect, this is why chariots were so popular from the Middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age.

So the Scythians must have come up with something specific to be able to do this, but I don't know what that was. They certainly didn't have stirrups, which came during the Middle Ages.



I know this will sound a bit unserious but obviously that was the pants. I am not a man but I can imagine if they try to ride without pantalons, that's kind of suicide... for some delicate parts of their bodies. :)

etrusco
01-24-2020, 09:18 AM
A new horse paper

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-57735-y


Abstract


While classic models for the emergence of pastoral groups in Inner Asia describe mounted, horse-borne herders sweeping across the Eurasian Steppes during the Early or Middle Bronze Age (ca. 3000–1500 BCE), the actual economic basis of many early pastoral societies in the region is poorly characterized. In this paper, we use collagen mass fingerprinting and ancient DNA analysis of some of the first stratified and directly dated archaeofaunal assemblages from Mongolia’s early pastoral cultures to undertake species identifications of this rare and highly fragmented material. Our results provide evidence for livestock-based, herding subsistence in Mongolia during the late 3rd and early 2nd millennia BCE. We observe no evidence for dietary exploitation of horses prior to the late Bronze Age, ca. 1200 BCE – at which point horses come to dominate ritual assemblages, play a key role in pastoral diets, and greatly influence pastoral mobility. In combination with the broader archaeofaunal record of Inner Asia, our analysis supports models for widespread changes in herding ecology linked to the innovation of horseback riding in Central Asia in the final 2nd millennium BCE. Such a framework can explain key broad-scale patterns in the movement of people, ideas, and material culture in Eurasian prehistory.

Silesian
01-24-2020, 11:20 AM
A new horse paper

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-57735-y


Abstract


While classic models for the emergence of pastoral groups in Inner Asia describe mounted, horse-borne herders sweeping across the Eurasian Steppes during the Early or Middle Bronze Age (ca. 3000–1500 BCE), the actual economic basis of many early pastoral societies in the region is poorly characterized. In this paper, we use collagen mass fingerprinting and ancient DNA analysis..............broad-scale patterns in the movement of people, ideas, and material culture in Eurasian prehistory.
With so many potential cow and or sheep samples, it would be interesting to see the origins of pastoralist lineages of Caucasian-Afansievo, Yamnaya, and the Northern Caucasus-Steppe groups.

rms2
01-25-2020, 03:22 PM
A new horse paper

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-57735-y


Abstract


While classic models for the emergence of pastoral groups in Inner Asia describe mounted, horse-borne herders sweeping across the Eurasian Steppes during the Early or Middle Bronze Age (ca. 3000–1500 BCE), the actual economic basis of many early pastoral societies in the region is poorly characterized. In this paper, we use collagen mass fingerprinting and ancient DNA analysis of some of the first stratified and directly dated archaeofaunal assemblages from Mongolia’s early pastoral cultures to undertake species identifications of this rare and highly fragmented material. Our results provide evidence for livestock-based, herding subsistence in Mongolia during the late 3rd and early 2nd millennia BCE. We observe no evidence for dietary exploitation of horses prior to the late Bronze Age, ca. 1200 BCE – at which point horses come to dominate ritual assemblages, play a key role in pastoral diets, and greatly influence pastoral mobility. In combination with the broader archaeofaunal record of Inner Asia, our analysis supports models for widespread changes in herding ecology linked to the innovation of horseback riding in Central Asia in the final 2nd millennium BCE. Such a framework can explain key broad-scale patterns in the movement of people, ideas, and material culture in Eurasian prehistory.

Of course, horse domestication and horseback riding came rather later to Central Asia than they did to the Pontic-Caspian steppe in eastern Europe.

jdean
01-25-2020, 10:55 PM
Of course, horse domestication and horseback riding came rather later to Central Asia than they did to the Pontic-Caspian steppe in eastern Europe.

Funny but I was also thinking if you are going to make assumptions about the connection between the Steppe folk and Western Europe regarding horses why don't you actually investigate the ancient horse remains from those areas ?

Piquerobi
05-02-2020, 02:18 PM
An interesting documentary on horse domestication and the Indo-Europeans, it features David Anthony and his wife Dorcas Brown:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA02rgd9qok

rms2
05-03-2020, 03:36 PM
An interesting documentary on horse domestication and the Indo-Europeans, it features David Anthony and his wife Dorcas Brown:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA02rgd9qok

Really enjoyable video. Too bad they're not making more such videos.

I would like to see more on horses and horseback riding in Corded Ware and Beaker.

Ral
06-04-2020, 03:35 PM
Scientists like Anthony seem to be in minority.

Piquerobi
06-04-2020, 04:10 PM
Scientists like Anthony seem to be in minority.

In what way?

Ral
06-04-2020, 04:34 PM
In what way?

Very early riding as a mass phenomenon

rms2
06-05-2020, 12:54 PM
Scientists like Anthony seem to be in minority.

That's fine, if he is right. That's what matters.

I think he is right.

dodona
06-20-2020, 08:45 AM
Scientists like Anthony seem to be in minority. what planet do you live on?

Ral
11-16-2020, 06:02 PM
That's fine, if he is right. That's what matters.

I think he is right.

An interesting part of the Russian Wikipedia article.


They raised domesticated cattle and small ruminants (which accounted for half of all domestic animals) [25], pigs, horses, goats, and sheep.
The Trypillians had advantages in domestication of horses with early domestication, anticipating by 1.5-2 thousand years dairy commercial milk production and stall keeping of animals in winter in conditions of lack of food, in the harsh conditions of a snowy winter. The foal was immediately fed with the milk of cows, which made it possible not only to tame, but also to domesticate a horse - obtaining offspring from originally tamed animals, in contrast to herd grazing and keeping.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D 0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1 %83%D1%80%D0%B0

Ral
11-16-2020, 06:28 PM
In PIE language there was a word for hay ( Slavic ,Greek, Armenian languages). This means that late PIEs knew stall cattle breeding.