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Griff
08-22-2012, 01:19 AM
I am hoping that whenever and if ever an allele downstream from the above terminus is found, the exciting news will be found here.

Thank you.

"Griff"

David
08-22-2012, 08:13 AM
We've come a long way in just one year. As of 21 August, there are 172 DF21+ project members with Y-STR results. 111 (65%) have (or will have shortly) results for the Y111 test and 49 (28%) have results for the Y67 test. There are 12 (7%) Y37 results; about half of the 12 have a close relative in the project that has higher resolution test results.

There 24 SNPs under R-DF21, including three under investigation and seven private. Eight completed DF21+ WTYs, with a ninth in-progress!

Regards,
david

Rory Cain
09-04-2012, 11:58 PM
Greetings to my cousin Griff & my buddy David

In addition to David's observations, we also have a good representation from several Irish clan groups traditionally descended from the Ciannachta, including the Ely O'Carroll group and their kinfolk who fared north as mercenaries, the Airghialla. Part of the Airghialla also used the name Clan Colla. It also appears that despite the fabricated pedigrees attaching the (DF21+) Ciannachta to the (L226+) Dal gCas and the (Irish Type 2) Eoghanachta, that the Ciannachta were in fact akin to the Ossraige (Ossory) and Ui Baircche (Brigantes). In Ossory (Co Kilkenny & west Co Laois) the DF21+ tribes appear to have held their ground against L159.2, L144, Z253 and Irish Type 2 neighbours.

Not sure where that places our Galway-north Wales O'Cathain & Griffeth group, Griff. We seem to match the locations of the Gangani, who some historians would link with the Brigantes. Further DF21+ & DF5+ results from west Ireland & north Wales may provide further pointers. Historians believe the Gangani settled in Ireland & from the established a colony in north Wales. Maybe. I have not seen enough evidence yet to write off the other possibility, of the Gangani coming from north Wales and establishing a colony in west Ireland. I always expected further DF21+ & DF5+ results from north Wales. Sure enough, a guy I recruited, the Humphreys sample from the Llyn Peninsula (formerly the "Promontory of the Gangani") is DF21+, Z246+ and his (incomplete) Y111 already has three of the four key off-modals for DF5. So 21-246-119-B (Griffeth, etc) are no longer alone as Welsh DF5+. You guys may even be the parent stock of my group in Co Galway although it seems we parted company some time about the Roman occupation of Britain.

Rory

Griff
09-05-2012, 12:46 AM
Greetings to my cousin Griff & my buddy David

In addition to David's observations, we also have a good representation from several Irish clan groups traditionally descended from the Ciannachta, including the Ely O'Carroll group and their kinfolk who fared north as mercenaries, the Airghialla. Part of the Airghialla also used the name Clan Colla. It also appears that despite the fabricated pedigrees attaching the (DF21+) Ciannachta to the (L226+) Dal gCas and the (Irish Type 2) Eoghanachta, that the Ciannachta were in fact akin to the Ossraige (Ossory) and Ui Baircche (Brigantes). In Ossory (Co Kilkenny & west Co Laois) the DF21+ tribes appear to have held their ground against L159.2, L144, Z253 and Irish Type 2 neighbours.

Not sure where that places our Galway-north Wales O'Cathain & Griffeth group, Griff. We seem to match the locations of the Gangani, who some historians would link with the Brigantes. Further DF21+ & DF5+ results from west Ireland & north Wales may provide further pointers. Historians believe the Gangani settled in Ireland & from the established a colony in north Wales. Maybe. I have not seen enough evidence yet to write off the other possibility, of the Gangani coming from north Wales and establishing a colony in west Ireland. I always expected further DF21+ & DF5+ results from north Wales. Sure enough, a guy I recruited, the Humphreys sample from the Llyn Peninsula (formerly the "Promontory of the Gangani") is DF21+, Z246+ and his (incomplete) Y111 already has three of the four key off-modals for DF5. So 21-246-119-B (Griffeth, etc) are no longer alone as Welsh DF5+. You guys may even be the parent stock of my group in Co Galway although it seems we parted company some time about the Roman occupation of Britain.

Rory

Nice to know you've joined this blog, Rory - welcome!

I'm happy that you've reproduced our possible tribal history here in this blog. You've had to replicate it at least twice before on other blogs. This one seems to be where the pros hang out.

Happy news re Humphreys! Thanks for sharing that. My cousin Bill Griffeth (our fathers were brothers) is about to join the 111-marker/Family Finder group on FTDNA. His results should be forthcoming anytime now. He and I joined his brother and their respective wives in a week-long tour of cemeteries in Kansas, Iowa and Nebraska a month ago. It's great to be retired, as long as the money holds out.

I am interested to read any responses to your post re the early origins of our DF5 families. You certainly have provided a springboard for such a conversation.

Cheers, and again, welcome!
Griff

Griff
09-05-2012, 04:29 AM
Dave, could you please check Kit No. 249295? It's my cousin, William Curtis Griffeth. He says he has results. Thanks!

-Griff

David
09-05-2012, 04:59 AM
Dave, could you please check Kit No. 249295? It's my cousin, William Curtis Griffeth. He says he has results. Thanks!

-Griff

Griff, he hasn't joined the DF21 project yet, so I have no visibility to his kit or results. Please ask him to use this join link:
http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=R-DF21&code=Y76804

Regards,
david

Griff
09-05-2012, 05:11 AM
Bill just gave me his password, so I went in and joined him up to the DF21 project. Now you should be able to keep track of him.

Thanks!
-Griff

David
09-05-2012, 04:13 PM
Bill just gave me his password, so I went in and joined him up to the DF21 project. Now you should be able to keep track of him.

Thanks!
-Griff
OK, he's in, and once his YSTR results start coming in, he will be visible in the project listings.

--david

Griff
09-05-2012, 04:30 PM
When I look for him as a match on my own FTDNA, he shows up currently as "private" but a perfect 67/67 match (so far - he is being tested up to the 111 level, plus Family Finder.

Rory Cain
09-05-2012, 09:46 PM
David, I don't see Griff's cousin Bill Griffeth listed at all in the R-DF21 & Clades project. Griff's observation that Bill shows only as "private" on Griff's own FTDNA account matches rings an alarm bell. Some thing happened with a guy in my project who I paid for in 2006, yet in 2011 he suddenly went "private". I knew it wasn't the guys own doing. Something at FTDNA defaulted after one of their upgrades. Same thing happened for a new member. My brother, if I recall. He's no "privacy freak" either.

I suspect the settings for Griff's cousin Bill also defaulted to private. Griff, as you have Bill's password, you may have to log in and search for Bill's privacy setting. FTDNA ain't making this stuff any easier to find or operate, so good luck with that. David as project admin will be blocked from making the change, as I was with a kit that I damn well paid for!

BTW, good work recruiting another member of our 21-246-119 group.

Rory

Griff
09-07-2012, 04:05 PM
Rory, he just emailed me that he overlooked the privacy agreement when he received the kit, and will sign and mail in the form I sent to him. So he will no longer be private as soon as that document is processed.

Have a great weekend!
-Griff

PS. Bill refers to my picture (left) as "Leave It to Beaver". Do you think so too? ;-)

Rory Cain
09-08-2012, 10:32 PM
Rory, he just emailed me that he overlooked the privacy agreement when he received the kit, and will sign and mail in the form I sent to him. So he will no longer be private as soon as that document is processed.

Have a great weekend!
-Griff

PS. Bill refers to my picture (left) as "Leave It to Beaver". Do you think so too? ;-)

Griff, you have correctly assessed me as old enough to remember the "Leave it to Beaver" series. Yes, I tend to agree with cousin Bill.

BTW, I found our "21-246-119" group listed on spreadsheets at www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/Files/ which I believe is work by Alex Williamson, a LSC guy also involved as admin in the R-L21 project. Numerous spreadsheets there. The last set of digits indicates the date, so look for the most recent. I contacted some of the guys that are listed closest to our 21-246-119 group. A few replies, so maybe some more DF21+/DF5+ when their results come back. Alex or whoever the author is just lists these guys without telling them, so many don't know they are potential DF21+ or DF5+. Worth telling them, even if the reply rate is rather low.

David wants to capture genotypes & surnames not yet represented in the DF21 project. The "2217" group is not represented, I think. Of that group, McCain has joined, Morgan is testing DF21, & Sivula replied briefly before ducking hurricanes in Louisiana so hadn't ordered a SNP at that time. I also contacted members of the "921" group. Less success but maybe some will think it over & act later. I see that Mahan/Mahon surname well represented in the 21-2225 Ely O'Carroll group, the "2311" Aran group and the "921" group although the response has been under-whelming from them, even though one is already confirmed DF21+.

The addition of cousin Bill to the 21-246-119 group makes it the biggest DF5+ group thus far. Nice work, Griff.

Rory

Rory Cain
09-10-2012, 09:47 PM
The "2217" group is not represented, I think. Of that group, McCain has joined, Morgan is testing DF21, & Sivula replied briefly before ducking hurricanes in Louisiana so hadn't ordered a SNP at that time. I also contacted members of the "921" group.
Rory

The 921 group is now represented, with the addition of 230830 Gammie. Not DF5 tested but states that he is open to this. Of the three different sub-groups of Mahan/ Mahon that are either proven or probable DF21+, one of those Mahan/Mahon sub-groups is "921" type. They are Group 4 in the Mahan project and also represented in the Mahan/Mahon project. The latter is the one that turned on its SNP results after I advised them of the significance of DF21. The Mahan/Mahon project already has a member from the "1123 Aran" type who is confirmed DF21+. Another Mahan is "21-2225 EC" Ely O'Carroll type.

Historically the O'Mahon sept were part of the Ui Fiachra Aidhne of south Galway. They were styled chiefs of Caonraige, linking them to the tribe who held Kenry, Co Limerick before being pushed north ca 3rd C when Limerick & Clare fell to a rival dynasty. Apparently then these (DF21+) O'Mahans were then accepted into the (M222+) Ui Fiachra as equals. Indeed. first amongst equals, as the O'Mahons were the first Lords of Ui Fiachra Aidhne before being deprived by their adopted (M222+) kin, MacGiollaCheallaigh. The DF21+, DF5+, L658+ O'Cathain sept were chiefs of Cenel Cedna which equals the Dubh-ros peninsula, so possibly represent the Tradraige from whom the territory of Tradree, Co Clare is named. Tradree and Kenry guarded opposite banks of the Shannon estuary. The Tradraige were pushed north like the Caonraige to become the Tradraige Dubh-ros of south Galway, and again neighbors of the Caonraige. Like the Caonraige, they were awarded an Ui Fiachra Aidhne pedigree which only the advent of modern DNA testing could unravel.
Rory

David
09-10-2012, 09:57 PM
Thank, Rory. I've written Gammie and suggested a Y111 upgrade, which would give us a much better idea where he would fit in. Looking at his top 15 matches in the project, 1/3 are with the Ely Carrol folks, and 2/3 are scattered around various DF5+ clusters. GD of 8/67 to 14/67.

--david

Rory Cain
09-12-2012, 10:10 PM
Thank, Rory. I've written Gammie and suggested a Y111 upgrade, which would give us a much better idea where he would fit in. Looking at his top 15 matches in the project, 1/3 are with the Ely Carrol folks, and 2/3 are scattered around various DF5+ clusters. GD of 8/67 to 14/67.
--david

David, I may have been rash in taking Alex at his word (or whoever the author of those spreadsheets was, at www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/Files as our other new member 166290 Mahan also fits the "921" cluster, but lacks the key off-modals of DF5 such as DYS643=9, etc. If I am right that 166290 Mahan is indeed "921", it looks like we can rule out "921" as being DF5+. Perhaps still DF21. A Mr Case was also listed amongst L513, encouraging him to test, only to come back L513-. In Case got moved around other SNPs on the LSC spreadsheets a bit before that, which undermines one's confidence somewhat. Also the Daniels are other kits listed near L658 are clearly not of the "21-246-119" variety at all so simply not related at all. Well, maybe Adam. My initial excitement that these lists might prove a good source of identify DF21s and DF5s had taken a direct hit, I'm afraid.

Other new member 161496 Keane looks like a strong DF21, "21-1123 Aran" based on his 12/12 match with 226344 Kane who in turn matches 106369 Mahon & 194111 Mahon, the latter being a confirmed DF21+. The LSC spreadsheets do list a Mahon in this group,so I acknowledge the role this played as a pointer to the Keane & Kane two in my project. The one whose kit I control (161496) is now also in your project. Some value from the LSC spreadsheets.

10-30-2012, 12:41 PM
William Harris Pennsylvania R1b1a2a1a1b4 L238/S182 Brythonic/Celtic Ancestry
L21+ DF21+ DF13+ Z246- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L720- L642- L641- L226- L193- L159.2- L144-

Griff
10-30-2012, 03:00 PM
William Harris Pennsylvania R1b1a2a1a1b4 L238/S182 Brythonic/Celtic Ancestry
L21+ DF21+ DF13+ Z246- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L720- L642- L641- L226- L193- L159.2- L144-

Welcome, William! Glad to have you aboard our "outlier" subgroup of DF21. Have you tested for DF5 yet? If so, I hope Dave will encourage you to do so.

Do you have a written history of your family? Do you know fairly precisely where in the British Isles your family comes from?

Again, welcome, and we hope you post often here.

Cheers,
Douglas Griffeth
Los Angeles

David
10-30-2012, 11:23 PM
Welcome, William! Glad to have you aboard our "outlier" subgroup of DF21. Have you tested for DF5 yet? If so, I hope Dave will encourage you to do so.
...

Grif, he's Z246-, so we know he is DF25- Z248- DF5-.

--david

Griff
10-30-2012, 11:32 PM
Grif, he's Z246-, so we know he is DF25- Z248- DF5-.

--david

OK, thanks for the correction, David.

11-03-2012, 06:16 PM
Thanks.

No, I'm Z246- so I didn't test for downsstream DF5.

Well, on the Harris line I'm not sure of the location. The historic name means Son of Harry or Son of the Home Ruler. Supposedly to British Isles via France. But my mother is a Campbell. Our ancester Samuel Campbell emigrated to PA with some relatives (Morrisons) by way of Ireland in the 1740's. Samuels family was originally from Scotland.

Bill

Griff
11-26-2012, 09:16 PM
Soooo … as my terminal marker remains DF5, should I test for the newly discovered L1335? Money is very tight, so I need to test only what will move the ball down the field.

Dave?

Thanks,
Griff

MJost
11-27-2012, 03:27 AM
Griff,

I think I remember that DF21 was negative in the PGP datasets. So its covered. I also think the ISSOG might still need an exact DF21 testee though. So I wouldnt sweat it. I believe it will all wash out soon.

MJost

David
11-28-2012, 03:15 AM
No need for DF21+ folks to purchase L1335. We know from a recent WTY result that R-DF21 is L1335-, and that suffices for the purpose of placing L1335 onto the ISOGG tree.

--david

David
11-28-2012, 03:17 AM
L1336 was found in the WTY of kit 120616 (J Moore), R-DF21*, a member of the 21-5909-A variety. It is available for order at this time (a new record--available for order today, and the WTY is not officially complete!)

Scope of the SNP is not known at this point. Initially, I suggest that other members of the 21-5909-A variety order L1336.

There is no reason or benefit for DF21- people to order L1336.

Known members of this variety include:
f85688 Addison
f199254 Conaway
f218112 Conroy
f210550 Cullen
f91126 Doyle
f173456 Fanning
fN71222 Keon
f44513 King
f65840 Lydon
fN3362 Maher
f149586 McLaughlin
fN82445 Meade
f120616 Moore
f76306 Moore
f127824 Nichols
f165616 Nichols
f153891 Nichols
f40533 Nichols
f112863 Nichols
fN105692 O'Rourke
f66334 Payne
f77009 Stewart
f63964 Tierney
f54577 Welsh

Regards,
david

Gorm
12-01-2012, 08:07 PM
I'm R-DF5.

Griff
12-01-2012, 10:52 PM
Welcome, Gorm. My paternal family name is Griffeth, What's yours?

David
12-01-2012, 11:43 PM
Always good to see another DF5+ person! If you haven't already, please considering the DF21 (which includes DF5) group:
http://my.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?act=groupjoin&group=R-DF21

Regards,
david

Gorm
12-02-2012, 07:48 PM
Hi My name is James Selbie. Ancestors back to 1680 in Aberdeenshire.

Griff
12-02-2012, 09:34 PM
Hi My name is James Selbie. Ancestors back to 1680 in Aberdeenshire.

Interesting! There are experts here who are far more informed than I, but I read somewhere that if a Scot bore a family name with "bie" or "by" that usually indicated a Viking heritage. But of course your patrilineal family name might have changed over time, so don't believe it unless and until someone in the know comments. My family name, Griffeth/Griffith, is usually thought of as Welsh, but given what we have now, I would be inclined to place us somewhere in the former Salop, or Shropshire.

In any case, welcome!

Griff

Gorm
12-03-2012, 07:07 PM
Thanks Griff. I don't think anyone knows what DF5 means ...yet

Regards Jim

Rory Cain
12-26-2012, 04:38 AM
Interesting! There are experts here who are far more informed than I, but I read somewhere that if a Scot bore a family name with "bie" or "by" that usually indicated a Viking heritage. But of course your patrilineal family name might have changed over time, so don't believe it unless and until someone in the know comments. My family name, Griffeth/Griffith, is usually thought of as Welsh, but given what we have now, I would be inclined to place us somewhere in the former Salop, or Shropshire.

In any case, welcome!

Griff

Griff, it's true that one family in our DYS442=11,DYS534=16,DYS450=9 group there is one surname, Hodnett, which is the name of a Shropshire village. There is also Davenport, the name of a Cheshire village. Both Shropshire & Cheshire border on Wales, where we also have the quintessential North Wales name of Griffeth/Griffith plus Hughes, Morgan & Thomas all "11169" types. The odds appear to favour North Wales.

It gets a bit more puzzling when we throw in the Cains, who from their Co Galway origins appear to be the O'Cathain clan of south Co Galway. Of course the Irish colonized North Wales at two points in history, on each side of the Roman occupation period. Another "11169" surname has emerged from Ireland, Marshall (SQ6NG on Ysearch who has escaped the notice of DNA researchers Alex Williamson & Mike Walsh). Marshall is genetically closest to the Davenport & Hodnett group. Is Marshall Irish? Or Anglo-Irish, descended from an Anglo from the Welsh Marches who in turn descended from a North Welshman who crossed the border sometime earlier, in turn descended from an Irishman who joined the Irish colonisation of North Wales?

We can almost certainly add in one more migration. The DF21+ SNP is in Ireland has an affinity with areas settled by the Brigantes, actually a British tribe, known in Ireland as the Ui Bairrche and/or their offshoots the Ossraige (Ossory) and Beantraige (Bantry). The Brigantes were the largest tribe in Britain and resisted Roman rule in 47AD, 57AD, 69AD, 73AD, 100AD, 117AD, 138 AD & 154 AD, the last occasion being after 3 generations of Britic Celts had grown up thinking of themselves as "Roman". Not the Brigantes. A Brigantan burial on Lambay Island off Dublin ca.100AD indicates that Briganten royalty and nobility found it wise to relocate to their Irish colony whenever the Romans put a price on their heads. Forget the Hodnett offshoot in Shropshire. Our numbers are stronger in northern England, Wales & Ireland. We ain't Limeys, or at least most of us aren't. We're more likely to be Geordies, Taffys or Micks.

David
12-31-2012, 07:53 AM
If you have been thinking about upgrading your YSTR markers, remember that the sale ends 31 Dec, Monday night (midnight Houston time).

There are currently 217 DF21+ people in the DF21 project. 133 (61%) already have 111 markers, while 61 (28%) have 67 markers, and 22 (10%) have 37 markers and 1 has 12 markers.

About half of the low resolution results have close relatives who have Y67 or Y111 results, and upgrades are not particularly useful for those kits. The other half, I strongly encourage to upgrade to Y67 or Y111 if possible. One Y37->Y67 upgrade is already on order.

If you are currently at Y67, then an upgrade would be most useful for people who belong to small varieties within the DF21 project where an upgrade to Y111 would help confirm whether the variety grouping is valid or not. (We've seen instances where people who have rather similar haplotypes at Y67 wildly diverge at Y111.) Five Y67->Y111 upgrades are already on order.

Regards,
david

Griff
12-31-2012, 03:48 PM
Happy New Year to all Anthrogenitists and other thrill seekers! Be prosperous and live in expectation of new discoveries in the new year!

David
01-01-2013, 03:49 AM
L876, "new" SNP, approx. equivalent to P314.2


About two months ago, Thomas added L876 to the Draft Tree as equivalent to P314.2. The ymap db lists four derived results out of 211 tests. It is clear that almost all of those 211 tests are are WTY results.


WTY shows two L876- results under DF21. Kit 120616 (Moore, 21-5909-A) and kit 163654 (Kilgore, 21-5909-LS). It was not possible to re-blast any older chromatograms to obtain L876 results for other WTY kits.


Alex W noted the SNP back in April, but it apparently did not catch any attention then.
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/7436


I cannot find any reference to any of the four L876+ results; I suspect they were not reported to the end-users. (I.e., end-user ordered DF21, got the DF21 result, but the L876 result, which is on the same trace as the DF21 result, was not ordered, so was not reported.)


I would strongly recommend L876 to the "pre-P314.2" people, who have YSTRs which are close to the P314.2 cluster, but have tested P314.2-.
f69893 Dickey
f208773 Reith
f112892 Rogers
f67944 Sterling


P314.1+ people may want to test L876, but based on the limited available info, most if not all are likely to test L876+.


Regards,
david

David
01-04-2013, 05:48 PM
<deleted, msg in error>

Rory Cain
01-04-2013, 11:14 PM
CTS3566 splits R-DF5

CTS3566 was found during the first round of Geno 2.0 testing where kits 21340 (Grant), N20114 (Coberly), and 20437 (Reynolds) tested CTS3566+. Examining the two 1000 Genomes datasets that are DF5+, one was CTS3566+ and the other was CTS3566-, leading us to believe that CTS3566 forms a new subclade under R-DF5.

I'm looking for one person out of each DF5 cluster to test so that we can verify this, and if so, determine who falls into the new R-CTS3566 clade.

To order:
* Login to your myFTDNA home page
* Click on the large orange "Order an Upgrade" button in the upper-right corner
* Click "Order an Advanced Test"
* Type "CTS3566" in the "Marker" box, select "SNP" from the "Test Type" pulldown, click "FIND"
* Click "Add" on the CTS3566 line
* Click "NEXT" in the bottom-right corner to proceed to checkout

Regards,
david

Thanks, David,however I am confused. Since mid-December I have been following the yahoo R-L21 discussion of a SNP called CTS3655 on that forum and on your WTY results summary spreadsheet. The discussion re CTS3655 gives it the same attributes as newcomer CTS3566 discussed above. Is CTS3566 a new SNP redundant with CTS3655? Or, given the confusingly similar numbers, are they in fact the same, identical but for a typo? If so, which is correct?
I have made my share of errors, so being in error is not the issue here. I just want to get this cleared up early so we can get the correct SNP on order by all the SNP enthusiasts who have been waiting for this one, whatever it is called.

Rory

David
01-05-2013, 12:02 AM
Rory, short answer is I screwed up. The correct ID is indeed CTS3655. You and Griff (and I) need to cancel the CTS3566 orders. I apologize for the inconvenience, I need to start double-checking these long SNP names even more carefully.

Regards,
david

Rory Cain
01-18-2013, 10:26 PM
Rory, short answer is I screwed up. The correct ID is indeed CTS3655. You and Griff (and I) need to cancel the CTS3566 orders. I apologize for the inconvenience, I need to start double-checking these long SNP names even more carefully.

Regards,
david

Hey, don't sweat it, David. After finding little or nothing on these two SNPs elsewhere I finally tried Finch. It lists:
CTS3566 at gene site 13541475 & positioned at approximately R-Z248 on ISOGG
CTS3655 at gene site 13604773 & syn with CTS3655 (did they get confused too and mean CTS3566?) downstream DF25 by FTDNAs reckoning & positioned at approximately R-DF5 on ISOGG.

Some of this stuff would confuse anyone. Like getting Geno2.0 results when FTDNA still cling to an obsolescent haplotree. One quickly find that Geno2.0 and FTDNA are not mutually intelligible. A FTDNA staffer told me that FTDNA were updating their haplotree in 2012 (I received that answer January 2012 and am still waiting).

I take it though, that CTS3655 is the one that appears to split DF5/Z248 and that CTS3566 has failed to do so.

DRMoore
02-02-2013, 10:51 PM
Hey, don't sweat it, David. After finding little or nothing on these two SNPs elsewhere I finally tried Finch. It lists:
CTS3566 at gene site 13541475 & positioned at approximately R-Z248 on ISOGG
CTS3655 at gene site 13604773 & syn with CTS3655 (did they get confused too and mean CTS3566?) downstream DF25 by FTDNAs reckoning & positioned at approximately R-DF5 on ISOGG.

Some of this stuff would confuse anyone. Like getting Geno2.0 results when FTDNA still cling to an obsolescent haplotree. One quickly find that Geno2.0 and FTDNA are not mutually intelligible. A FTDNA staffer told me that FTDNA were updating their haplotree in 2012 (I received that answer January 2012 and am still waiting).

I take it though, that CTS3655 is the one that appears to split DF5/Z248 and that CTS3566 has failed to do so.

Just joined this Forum, in fact the first forum I have ever joined. Just seeing if I can post a message. I am David R Moore of Dublin, GA, relatively new to computers, and my SNPs are:
P312+ L21+ Z245+ L459+ DF13+ DF21+ Z246+ DF25+ DF5+ Z248+ L627- L658- U152- P66- P313.2- M37- M222- L7- L8- L10- L61- L95- L96- L130- L144- L159.2- L193- L226- L513-.
A paternal 1st cousin (genetic distance 3/111) is DF5+ L626- L625-. A paternal uncle is DF5+ and CTS3655-.
I should be getting results from a WTY in a few weeks.

History-of-Things
02-03-2013, 03:45 PM
I forgot if this thread is for all DF21+s. If not I'll move this post. In addition to the names in the DF21+ project, the confirmed L720+ subclade now includes the Williams family who have STR signatures almost identical to mine. Our bunch also has a fairly close match with a Gillis (to my knowledge not SNP tested) 7 steps at 111 markers. Our bunch seems to continue to be seem tightly resonant islands, coasts, and maybe highlands of western Scotland and northern Ireland. Williams may well be MacWilliams in this instance. The question is am I a Farris or a Williams, I guess..... darned spotty 18th century records.

Rory Cain
02-04-2013, 12:27 AM
Just joined this Forum, in fact the first forum I have ever joined. Just seeing if I can post a message. I am David R Moore of Dublin, GA, relatively new to computers, and my SNPs are:
P312+ L21+ Z245+ L459+ DF13+ DF21+ Z246+ DF25+ DF5+ Z248+ L627- L658- U152- P66- P313.2- M37- M222- L7- L8- L10- L61- L95- L96- L130- L144- L159.2- L193- L226- L513-.
A paternal 1st cousin (genetic distance 3/111) is DF5+ L626- L625-. A paternal uncle is DF5+ and CTS3655-.
I should be getting results from a WTY in a few weeks.

David, welcome to the Forum. You are also a most welcome addition to WTY. As one of my email conversations with you may have been what persuaded you to do WTY, I sincerely hope that you get your money's worth from it.

Your cousins Geno2.0 results may help to clear up the confusion between CTS3566 which the Finch server lists as approximating Z248, and the confusingly similarly designated CTS3655 which appears to be downstream of DF5 and its Siamese twin Z248. Results as dragged over to FTDNA from Geno2.0 only list positive results but I assume that in addition to being CTS3655-, your cousin was also CTS3566-. As no DF21+ Z246- person nor any DF5+ person has yet received a CTS3566+ result that I know of, it seems that the wrong people have been testing for it. If CTS3566 is approximately Z248 but DF5+/Z248+ status is a contraindication for CTS3566, then CTS3566 is perhaps more likely a "brother" of DF5/Z248. So maybe it's the DF25+ guys who should be testing for CTS3566?

As for CT3655, I'll test one of the Cains for it when it finally become available. The 3 weeks from discovery to availability at FTDNA has blown out somewhat on this SNP. Attempts at prediction are fraught with danger, but there are some circumstantial indicators that we Cains may be CTS3655- like your cousin and also the Cornish DNA sample in 1000 Genomes. That would have some interesting implications.

Rory

Griff
02-05-2013, 10:46 PM
Well surprise, surprise. Bill turns out to belong to the I1 Haplogroup, and is therefore not a DF5. Turns out he had a different father than my Uncle Charles, so we must sadly cross him off as member of this fragment of a group!

-Griff

PS. Life is so full of irony: I was adopted out of the Griffeth family, and raised under a new name. Bill was raised as a Griffeth, and isn't.

Griff
02-07-2013, 03:49 AM
Rory and Dave, Bill will not be joining us in the 21-246-119 group, as he came into this world in an NPE situation, of which he had no knowledge until DNA testing proved the truth. He is now dealing with that at age 52.

-Griff

David
02-07-2013, 11:38 AM
Well surprise, surprise. Bill turns out to belong to the I1 Haplogroup, and is therefore not a DF5. Turns out he had a different father than my Uncle Charles, so we must sadly cross him off as member of this fragment of a group!

-Griff

PS. Life is so full of irony: I was adopted out of the Griffeth family, and raised under a new name. Bill was raised as a Griffeth, and isn't.
Irony is almost as certain in life as death and taxes.

My best wishes to Bill as he adjusts to this new knowledge.

Regards,
david

David
02-07-2013, 11:48 AM
David, welcome to the Forum. You are also a most welcome addition to WTY. As one of my email conversations with you may have been what persuaded you to do WTY, I sincerely hope that you get your money's worth from it.

Your cousins Geno2.0 results may help to clear up the confusion between CTS3566 which the Finch server lists as approximating Z248, and the confusingly similarly designated CTS3655 which appears to be downstream of DF5 and its Siamese twin Z248. Results as dragged over to FTDNA from Geno2.0 only list positive results but I assume that in addition to being CTS3655-, your cousin was also CTS3566-. As no DF21+ Z246- person nor any DF5+ person has yet received a CTS3566+ result that I know of, it seems that the wrong people have been testing for it. If CTS3566 is approximately Z248 but DF5+/Z248+ status is a contraindication for CTS3566, then CTS3566 is perhaps more likely a "brother" of DF5/Z248. So maybe it's the DF25+ guys who should be testing for CTS3566?

As for CT3655, I'll test one of the Cains for it when it finally become available. The 3 weeks from discovery to availability at FTDNA has blown out somewhat on this SNP. Attempts at prediction are fraught with danger, but there are some circumstantial indicators that we Cains may be CTS3655- like your cousin and also the Cornish DNA sample in 1000 Genomes. That would have some interesting implications.

Rory
Please forget CTS3566 and wipe it from your mental list of potentially interesting SNPs. It has nothing to do with DF21 at all, and the start of this story is with a moment (or two) of dyslexia on my part.

CTS3655 is the SNP of interest, and at this point, we have five DF5+ Geno 2.0 results that have been reported to me, and three of those are CTS3655+ and two are CTS3655-. So a very solid split.

The project pages have been re-organized for the DF5+ folks to show CTS3655 status, and once it is finally available for purchase, we can get the rest of the blanks filled in. I'm also suspecting R-L658 will be CTS3655-, so that will be interesting to see when the time comes.

If you have Geno 2.0 results, please send me a copy so I can extract the relevant SNPs, including the negative results which are not otherwise visible. See http://daver.info/geno for information on generating the raw data file and sending it to me.

I especially need the raw results files for an L720+ person, as I have a question about the validity of the L720 alleles being returned.

Regards,
david

History-of-Things
02-07-2013, 02:54 PM
I especially need the raw results files for an L720+ person, as I have a question about the validity of the L720 alleles being returned.

Regards,
david

It's in the (e)mail....

David
02-08-2013, 01:47 AM
It's in the (e)mail....
Thanks, Johnathan. Your information and results confirmed my suspicion that the Geno 2.0 results for L720 are invalid. This is unfortunately also the case for Z246. I've blacklisted both SNPs and do not add the Geno 2.0 results for those two SNPs to the R-L21 Summary Table (http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf).

Regards,
david

David
02-09-2013, 05:41 PM
Just joined this Forum, in fact the first forum I have ever joined. Just seeing if I can post a message. I am David R Moore of Dublin, GA, relatively new to computers, and my SNPs are:
P312+ L21+ Z245+ L459+ DF13+ DF21+ Z246+ DF25+ DF5+ Z248+ L627- L658- U152- P66- P313.2- M37- M222- L7- L8- L10- L61- L95- L96- L130- L144- L159.2- L193- L226- L513-.
A paternal 1st cousin (genetic distance 3/111) is DF5+ L626- L625-. A paternal uncle is DF5+ and CTS3655-.
I should be getting results from a WTY in a few weeks.

Welcome, David.

Thomas and Astrid are just finishing up four WTY tests that it looks like they have been working on the last three weeks or so (Hg B, Hg C, and two Hg Ds). I believe your test is at the top of the queue for them to work on next. My best guess is you should have your results in 2-3 weeks.

Regards,
david

Rory Cain
02-11-2013, 11:43 PM
Please forget CTS3566 and wipe it from your mental list of potentially interesting SNPs. It has nothing to do with DF21 at all, and the start of this story is with a moment (or two) of dyslexia on my part.
Regards,
david

Then the Finch database's SNP listing is corrupted as it continues to list CTS3566 as approximate to Z248, but with a different gene site ID to CTS3655, which would make it a different SNP, right?

Take comfort that you are not the only dyslexic!

Cheers
Rory

saforrest
02-13-2013, 07:21 PM
Hello all,

What's the latest on L1336? Last I heard it was found in the WTY for a kit associated with the 21-5909-A variety. Have there been other instances found, inside or outside that variety? Is it believed to be private?

David
02-13-2013, 07:51 PM
Hello all,

What's the latest on L1336? Last I heard it was found in the WTY for a kit associated with the 21-5909-A variety. Have there been other instances found, inside or outside that variety? Is it believed to be private?
Only the single L1336+ has been found; testing has been limited, though.

Previous DF21+ WTY tests were confirmed L1336-, and that information is included in the R-L21 Summary Table (http://daver.info/WTY/R-L21.pdf). One other member (Maher) of that variety has tested L1336-. Maher is pretty close to Moore, so with him testing L1336-, I'd say the odds are pretty good that L1336 is private (or at least very limited scope).

-david

David
02-13-2013, 09:11 PM
CTS3655 is now available for order. It is known to be under DF5, and above L627. Relationship to L658 is unknown.

Please double-check your group listing in the DF21 project and see whether there is a known CTS3655 status for it -- if not, please order.

Only DF5+ people should consider ordering CTS3655.

Regards,
david

Griff
02-15-2013, 06:01 AM
As you know by email message, I have paid for a CTS3655 test at FTDNA. I am eager to know whether I am + or - and hopefully soon, we will learn how the divide works out! In the meanwhile, could we please know who so far is in which camp? Thanks.

Griff

Rory Cain
02-15-2013, 09:12 AM
As you know by email message, I have paid for a CTS3655 test at FTDNA. I am eager to know whether I am + or - and hopefully soon, we will learn how the divide works out! In the meanwhile, could we please know who so far is in which camp? Thanks.

Griff

Griff
Results to date include:
20437 Reynolds, origin unknown, CTS3655+
21340 Grant, eastern Scotland, CTS3655+
N20114 Cubberley, England, CTS3655+
HG00116 in 1K Genomes, Orkney, CTS3655+
42087 Via, origin unknown, CTS3655-
122847 Moore, Ayrshire & Ulster, CTS3655-
HG00242 in 1K Genomes, Cornwall, CTS3655-

I hope that you haven't backed the wrong horse. Of course a negative result for you will still benefit the rest of us as our knowledge of CTS3655's distribution will be better informed.

My interpretation is that we have an approximately 50/50 split along a line that splits the British Isles into east & west. With all due respect to the work of Chris Tyler-Smith, the "CTS" series of SNPs come from a racially exclusive gene pool in that the 1000 Genomes so-called "British Isles" samples included England and Scotland only and excluded the two most Celtic countries, Ireland and Wales. Therefore it is almost inevitable that we will end up with a racially exclusive SNP sooner or later. I suspect that it is already here, in the form of CTS3655. I am not expecting us Irish & Welsh "11-16-9" guys to be CTS3655+. However I will of course keep my fingers crossed for you, while at the same time hoping for a western British Isles brother of CTS3655 to emerge from 122847 Moore's WTY sample kit, or from a Griffeth/Hughes/Thomas/Davenport/Sharp WTY if the rest of that group get behind and support those of us who have already donated towards the common cause.

Rory

David
02-15-2013, 09:42 AM
Griff
Results to date include:
20437 Reynolds, origin unknown, CTS3655+
21340 Grant, eastern Scotland, CTS3655+
N20114 Cubberley, England, CTS3655+
HG00116 in 1K Genomes, Orkney, CTS3655+
42087 Via, origin unknown, CTS3655-
122847 Moore, Ayrshire & Ulster, CTS3655-
HG00242 in 1K Genomes, Cornwall, CTS3655-

I hope that you haven't backed the wrong horse. Of course a negative result for you will still benefit the rest of us as our knowledge of CTS3655's distribution will be better informed.

My interpretation is that we have an approximately 50/50 split along a line that splits the British Isles into east & west. With all due respect to the work of Chris Tyler-Smith, the "CTS" series of SNPs come from a racially exclusive gene pool in that the 1000 Genomes so-called "British Isles" samples included England and Scotland only and excluded the two most Celtic countries, Ireland and Wales. Therefore it is almost inevitable that we will end up with a racially exclusive SNP sooner or later. I suspect that it is already here, in the form of CTS3655. I am not expecting us Irish & Welsh "11-16-9" guys to be CTS3655+. However I will of course keep my fingers crossed for you, while at the same time hoping for a western British Isles brother of CTS3655 to emerge from 122847 Moore's WTY sample kit, or from a Griffeth/Hughes/Thomas/Davenport/Sharp WTY if the rest of that group get behind and support those of us who have already donated towards the common cause.

Rory

Thanks for that great summary, Rory. I have also re-organized the DF21 project result page (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF21/default.aspx?section=ycolorized), with the "A" groups being CTS3655+, the "B" groups being CTS3655-, and the "C" groups do not have a CTS3655 status yet.

--david

Rory Cain
02-15-2013, 09:46 PM
Thanks for that great summary, Rory. I have also re-organized the DF21 project result page (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF21/default.aspx?section=ycolorized), with the "A" groups being CTS3655+, the "B" groups being CTS3655-, and the "C" groups do not have a CTS3655 status yet.

--david

I saw that, David, thanks. A most appropriate move as the CTS3655+/- picture becomes clearer.

I also see that David Moore's WTY has passed the PCR stage. Presumably this means he now has an alphabet soup of results, just waiting to be sequenced. As David is CTS3655-, the hope remains that his WTY produces a new SNP for the CTS3655- folks. This could be very timely for those receiving CTS3655- results back.

Rory

Griff
02-21-2013, 05:09 AM
Batched today:

Tests Lab Procedure Batch Expected
CTS3655 CTS3655 504 4/8/2013

David
02-26-2013, 11:59 PM
We are doing quite well with people ordering SNPs to ensure they are at their terminal SNP! At this point we just need a representative from each of these groups to order CTS3655 to fully understand the phylogeny under R-DF5.

Cain (21-246-255-AC), Sharpe/Davenport (21-246-255-AD), and Lusk/Montgomery/Moore (21-246-255-X).

[O'Donoghue Ross (21-246-255-misc) ordered 22 Feb.]

If you have any questions about which groups have ordered, or still need to order, CTS3655, please see the group headings in the YDNA Results listing:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF21/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

Regards,
david

Griff
02-27-2013, 05:02 PM
I read somewhere that families from the north of England (Scotland) whose names end in "bie" or "by" are descendants of Viking invaders. James, any truth to that?

Rory Cain
02-28-2013, 05:49 AM
Griff
Results to date include:
20437 Reynolds, origin unknown, CTS3655+
21340 Grant, eastern Scotland, CTS3655+
N20114 Cubberley, England, CTS3655+
HG00116 in 1K Genomes, Orkney, CTS3655+
42087 Via, origin unknown, CTS3655-
122847 Moore, Ayrshire & Ulster, CTS3655-
HG00242 in 1K Genomes, Cornwall, CTS3655-

Rory

Correction to above. I overlooked kit #178605 no surname, no haplogroup, Z248+, CTS3655-, Moore DNA Project SNP results list. Maybe 178605 will also appear on the Moore project STR results list after the haplogroup has been estimated. The estimated haplogroup will almost certainly be R1b1a2. That can be largely ignored as obsolete since we know this kit is Z248+. What will be interesting is whether this kit is placed in Moore Group 40 alongside the existing Moore CTS3655- result, or whether it belongs to Moore Group 2 which has not yet tested for CTS3655- except perhaps for this guy.

Thus we now have a 50/50 split, with four CTS3655+ and four CTS3655-.

Rory

Griff
03-05-2013, 04:31 AM
:beerchug: . but they're working on it!

Rory Cain
03-12-2013, 09:27 PM
:beerchug: . but they're working on it!

Apparently so! 122847 Moore is now listed on finch as sequenced as at 16 Feb, which of course is nearly a month ago. The mystery is why it took so long for this info to be posted. I can only assume that the delay may have been due to Thomas's absence from the lab while on holidays in Germany, hence your "beerchug" icon of clunking beer steins, I suppose.

This is the first DF5+ WTY since David Reynolds & Mike Caine in 2011, so hopes are high that it will strike gold.

Rory

David
03-15-2013, 12:00 PM
They have started posting WTY results for David Moore. They list one new SNP found, L1402, found using the M346 primers, which have been around a while.

I was able to re-blast my M346 chromatogram, as well as for both the Cain(e) kits, and determine all three of us are L1402-.

I believe the net of this is that L1402 is under DF5, and is mutually exclusive with CTS3655, L627, and L658.

I looked at the two DF5+ WGS datasets I have access to, and both were L1402-.

Thomas should have L1402 on the price list in a week or two, since no new primers are involved, and at that point we can work on figuring out what the scope of L1402 is.

While the summary table shows the L1402 results, David's full results are not shown yet, as they have not yet been exported to the Finch2 server.
http://daver.info/geno/results/R-DF21.pdf

Regards,
david

Rory Cain
03-15-2013, 11:26 PM
They have started posting WTY results for David Moore. They list one new SNP found, L1402, found using the M346 primers, which have been around a while.

I was able to re-blast my M346 chromatogram, as well as for both the Cain(e) kits, and determine all three of us are L1402-.

I believe the net of this is that L1402 is under DF5, and is mutually exclusive with CTS3655, L627, and L658.

I looked at the two DF5+ WGS datasets I have access to, and both were L1402-.

Thomas should have L1402 on the price list in a week or two, since no new primers are involved, and at that point we can work on figuring out what the scope of L1402 is.

While the summary table shows the L1402 results, David's full results are not shown yet, as they have not yet been exported to the Finch2 server.
http://daver.info/geno/results/R-DF21.pdf

Regards,
david

Thanks David. The watched pot has finally hit the boil. 122847 David Moore is also L1403+.

Rory

David
03-16-2013, 01:51 AM
David's results were also exported to the Finch2 server; I picked them up and the summary at http://daver.info/geno/results/R-DF21.pdf is now up-to-date.

L1403 was also found using older (M302) primers, so I was also able to reblast my results and the two Caine results to check it. All three of us were L1403-, as were the two WGS DF5+ samples I have access to.

As far as I can tell, both L1402 and L1403 are downstream of DF5 and mutually exclusive with CTS3655, L627, and L658.

Regards,
david

DRMoore
03-16-2013, 06:59 PM
Rory and David, Kit # 178605 in the Moore DNA Project SNP results list you referred to is Daniel Moore, my uncle, who had the Geno2.0 (whose results are listed there). He has not had been Y-STR tested. In was he who was CTS3655- and not me, David Moore, Kit # 122847, I have not been Geno2.0 tested. So there is one fewer results for CTS3655 than you said even though I am surely CTS3655- as well.
I just smoked a celebratory cigar after reading your discussion of my WTY results and etc. which seems to indicate that new SNPs L1402 & L1403 have been found under DF5. FTDNA has not notified me of my WTY results yet. So this is the first I have heard of it. Am excited about getting this sorted out and learning what this L1402 & L1403 business means for me and all the DF5 guys.
I have two first cousins (#148440 and #148439), whose accounts at FTDNA I manage, in the 21-246-255M cluster in the R-L21 Plus Project. And in the Moore Project I have two 4th cousins (#109449 and #200445 who are 2nd cousins to each other) who have not been SNP tested and so not in the R-L21 Plus Project. Also pending is a Y-STR test on a 4th cousin, once removed. I will manage this account at FTDNA. I will get at least one for the first cousins CTS3655 tested and encourage one of the 4th cousins to test as well. As soon as L1402 and L1403 are available for testing I will get at least my first cousins tested and hope other DF5 men do as well. Any other suggestions are appreciated. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Regards,
David R Moore
Dublin, GA

Rory Cain
03-17-2013, 12:32 AM
Rory and David, Kit # 178605 in the Moore DNA Project SNP results list you referred to is Daniel Moore, my uncle, who had the Geno2.0 (whose results are listed there). He has not had been Y-STR tested. In was he who was CTS3655- and not me, David Moore, Kit # 122847, I have not been Geno2.0 tested. So there is one fewer results for CTS3655 than you said even though I am surely CTS3655- as well.
I just smoked a celebratory cigar after reading your discussion of my WTY results and etc. which seems to indicate that new SNPs L1402 & L1403 have been found under DF5. FTDNA has not notified me of my WTY results yet. So this is the first I have heard of it. Am excited about getting this sorted out and learning what this L1402 & L1403 business means for me and all the DF5 guys.
I have two first cousins (#148440 and #148439), whose accounts at FTDNA I manage, in the 21-246-255M cluster in the R-L21 Plus Project. And in the Moore Project I have two 4th cousins (#109449 and #200445 who are 2nd cousins to each other) who have not been SNP tested and so not in the R-L21 Plus Project. Also pending is a Y-STR test on a 4th cousin, once removed. I will manage this account at FTDNA. I will get at least one for the first cousins CTS3655 tested and encourage one of the 4th cousins to test as well. As soon as L1402 and L1403 are available for testing I will get at least my first cousins tested and hope other DF5 men do as well. Any other suggestions are appreciated. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Regards,
David R Moore
Dublin, GA

David, thank you for providing an important answer re kit 178605. I found him in the Moore project but without a genotype it wasn't clear if he was from your own Moore sub-group or from the bigger Moore/Muir/Montgomery sub-group. Since 178605 is one of yours, it looks like the bigger Moore/Muir/Montgomery sub-group have not tested anyone for CTS3655.

As you say, testing your cousins first would be the first course of action, to confirm that L1402 & L1403 are at least family markers rather than singletons. Next priority would be the other surnames in your group, like Doolan, Downing, Kelly, Lawler, Mahon, Morrison, etc. I have contacted the Mahons & the Kellys. The only responses I received were from Louise Evans (Mahon) & Robyn Ashton (Kelly). Robyn was going to order DF21, so that's a start.

I can't help but notice that a cluster of Co Leix surnames including O Dunlaing, O Ceallaigh, O Leathlobhair & O Modha, once anglicised, look like the surnames in your group. O Dunlaing is now Dowling and/or Doolan. Downing is usually interchangeable with the Co Cork surname Dineen, but could also conceivably be a corruption of Dowling. There are numerous O Ceallaigh septs in ireland. One was from Co Leix. O Leathlobhair is now Lalor, Lawler, etc. O'Modha became O'More and now Moore. If that is so, then testing for DF5 & Z248 (and now L1402 & L1403 if they have a wide enough application) is potentially a good way for colonials with no idea of their home county in Ireland to finally answer this question. I tried to make that point with the Kelly & Mahon folks but I'm not confident that they got it. Some of the Mahons have a known location in south Galway where they were neighbours of the O'Cathains. As the Mahon genotype looks to be 21-255-M like like your Moore, Doolan, Kelly, Lawler sub-group, I suspect the Mahons might discover a deeper ancestral origin in Co Leix. It might pay the Cains and O'Donoghue Mor to also keep an open mind on the Co Leix connection.

Rory

David
03-17-2013, 01:02 AM
Exciting times! Always great when someone gets some new SNPs for their investment in WTY.

David, any of your known relatives, including the fourth cousins, are welcome in the DF21 project, no need to test DF21. There is absolutely no reason to expect someone to spend $39 to test DF21, when we know they will be DF21+.

Regards,
david

Rory Cain
03-17-2013, 02:47 AM
Exciting times! Always great when someone gets some new SNPs for their investment in WTY.

David, any of your known relatives, including the fourth cousins, are welcome in the DF21 project, no need to test DF21. There is absolutely no reason to expect someone to spend $39 to test DF21, when we know they will be DF21+.

Regards,
david

David, like you said above, both these new SNPs, L1402 and L1403, were found using old primers. Almost inevitably, any new SNPs found with primers that you, myself & Mike Caine were tested with would be a SNP that we don't have. That tends to bias further DF5 WTY tests towards finding private SNPs rather that what I might call "umbrella" SNPs. With four DF5+ guys now tested through WTY, our chances of finding "umbrella" SNPs would be improved with new primers. When is the next generation of WTY with its new batch of primers expected?

Rory

David
03-17-2013, 08:26 AM
Good question, Rory. I haven't heard anything since last Nov. I just sent an e-mail to Thomas Krahn to see if there is any update he might be able to provide.

--david

Rory Cain
03-18-2013, 03:02 AM
Good question, Rory. I haven't heard anything since last Nov. I just sent an e-mail to Thomas Krahn to see if there is any update he might be able to provide.

--david

Thanks, David. The other question on my mind is when will FTDNA upgrade their haplotree?

A staffer I emailed in January 2012 said it would be later that year. Obviously that never happened. But right now, DF21 (etc) results are invisible unless all project admins can be persuaded to turn on their project SNP results display. There are still many project admins who just don't get the significance of SNPs.

Rory

David
03-18-2013, 06:31 AM
Thanks, David. The other question on my mind is when will FTDNA upgrade their haplotree?

A staffer I emailed in January 2012 said it would be later that year. Obviously that never happened. But right now, DF21 (etc) results are invisible unless all project admins can be persuaded to turn on their project SNP results display. There are still many project admins who just don't get the significance of SNPs.

Rory
It was by year-end 2012, then it shifted to being 2-3 months out. It's been 2-3 months out since Nov... No point in asking about it any further, since their answers on that topic have lost all credibility. One day it will just happen, then we will spend 2-3 months sorting out the mistakes they have made. :)

--david

Sealgair
03-18-2013, 04:51 PM
Does anyone have a best guess as to the age of DF25 and/or DF5?


Charlie

David
03-23-2013, 02:00 AM
My son's CTS3655+ result came back, which confirms the CTS3655+ result seen in my Geno 2.0 results. His test was ordered one week earlier than the bulk of the CTS3655 tests, so hopefully we'll see most of the CTS3655 test results over the coming week.

Rory, I'll need a CTS3655 result from an individual SNP test (i.e., done via Sanger direct sequencing) for an L658+ person to get CTS3655 on the ISOGG tree. If it would expedite things for me to pick up the tab for that, let me know.

Regards,
david

Rory Cain
03-23-2013, 06:46 AM
[FONT=lucida grande
Rory, I'll need a CTS3655 result from an individual SNP test (i.e., done via Sanger direct sequencing) for an L658+ person to get CTS3655 on the ISOGG tree. If it would expedite things for me to pick up the tab for that, let me know.

Regards,
david[/FONT]

David, you know my feelings about racial discrimination and indeed you have unhesitatingly supported me on that. I can see no scientific justification for 1K Genomes hanging out the "No Irish or Welsh need apply" sign which reduced their so-called "British isles" sample to just two countries, England & Scotland. (It could have been worse. They could have excluded the Scots too.) I have abstained on conscientious grounds from testing CTS3655, preferring to contribute funds towards a L658- member of the DYS442=11, 534=16, 450=9 genetic group to do WTY.

However I can see your genuine scientific wish to place another DF21+ SNP on the database. I possibly wouldn't be reconsidering my stance for anyone else except you. I can't let you pay for it though, my old friend. If you are happy to instead put your $39 towards our 11-16-9 WTY candidate's test, I'll match that by paying for CTS3655 for one of the L658s. Since you already track kits 28714 & 120655 who have done WTY previously, I assume one of those kits would provide you with the greatest visibility. I won't be testing for it myself on principle, but it doesn't offend the principles of my affable old pal 120655 Mike Caine. He lives in England, although 1K Genomes' racial bar would exclude him too, I suspect, on account of his ancestry. This is almost deju vu! Mike's ancestors had to pretend to be Manx in order to "pass" in 19th C England.

Thanks for your ongoing work. It is appreciated.

Rory

David
03-24-2013, 04:42 AM
Thanks, Rory. Happy to make a donation to the WTY. :)

We currently have $301 set aside for the WTY.

--david

Rory Cain
03-25-2013, 12:11 AM
Thanks, Rory. Happy to make a donation to the WTY. :)

We currently have $301 set aside for the WTY.

--david

Thanks, David. After making the 1st donation and excluding myself as the candidate, I had hoped the other guys would jump in and run the fund-raising. As it is, I have had to continue to drive it, and raising funds has been like pulling teeth. So I thank you for your kind, and prompt, donation. We will take our timing from you on when to enter WTY, which would be best once WTY 3 with its updated primers becomes available.

You should receive an automated notification of a CTS3655 order placed for kit 120655 Mike Caine, the 1st L658+ so I assume the easiest for you to track.

Kind regards

Rory

TigerMW
03-30-2013, 09:43 PM
If you are interested, we also have a thread on DF21 over on Molgen's Genetic Genealogy forum.
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=122&t=435&p=14267#p14267

I am trying to find out what we know about L1336. Robert Casey has done some research on it.

Griff
04-03-2013, 04:20 PM
If you are interested, we also have a thread on DF21 over on Molgen's Genetic Genealogy forum.
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=122&t=435&p=14267#p14267

I am trying to find out what we know about L1336. Robert Casey has done some research on it.

Mike and all, I wish we could all agree to post on the same forum to keep up to date. I have a CT3655 test coming back any day now!

Griff

David
04-12-2013, 07:11 AM
Griff's test just came back, CTS3655-.


--david

Griff
04-12-2013, 03:22 PM
Griff's test just came back, CTS3655-.

--david

David, is there anything else I should test for? Not sure I am so very Irish as opposed to Scot or Welsh as you've suggested elsewhere. :\

Thank you for letting me know the result.

Griff

Rory Cain
04-14-2013, 05:22 AM
Griff's test just came back, CTS3655-.
--david

Thanks for the prompt feedback, David. Honestly though it's no great surprise. Griff's Welsh guys always looked a little too westerly to fit the easterly trend of CTS3655 and the racially-purged database from which it came- a so-called "British Isles" sample which excluded Irish & Welsh. Griff's negative result is partly balanced by David Moore's L1402 & L1403. Perhaps we need a candidate from the Griffeth/Hughes/Gibson/Thomas etc group to do WTY next. We have already raised about a third of the funds required for that.

Since the Morrisons share L1402 & L1403 , it is now looking interesting to see just how much territory they cover. The Moore-Morrison (etc) Ulster group are counter-balanced by the Co Leix half of "21-246-255-M". "21-246-255-M" includes
- Moore, a nominally English surname except that through anglicisation it now also includes the Scots name Muir and the Irish O'Modha (O'More) clan from Co Leix, a branch of the Clanna Rory.
- Morrison, a cots planter surname brought to Ulster. Morrison can also include the Irish O'Muirghis & O'Muirgheas (in lieu of Morrissey), FitzMaurice (in Irish MacMuiris) and McGilmore.
- Downing, a nominally English name also adopted by some Dineen and Downey families in Co Cork.
- Lawlor, a Co Leix sept & a branch of the Clanna Rory, akin to the O'Mores.
- Doolan, a Co Leix sept who used Doolan interchangeably with Dowling.
- Kelly, numerous Irish septs of that name & common on Man. One Kelly sept was located in Co Leix.
- Ryan, a Co Tipperary sept although two Ryans match the Lawlors.
- Phelan, a Co Waterford sept although one Phelan is from Co Leix and matches the Lawlors.
- Mahon, a Co Galway sept with the same Y12 as the "21-1123-Aran" Mahons, but a different Y67 which persuaded Alex Williamson to make them "21-246-255-M" (possibly outliers, I feel).

Unless L1402 & L1403 burn out before extending beyond the Moore & Morrison (plus Morrison variants), then the Co Leix half of 21-245-255 may warrant more attention than they have received to date.

Rory

Griff
04-15-2013, 03:35 PM
Thanks for the prompt feedback, David. Honestly though it's no great surprise. Griff's Welsh guys always looked a little too westerly to fit the easterly trend of CTS3655 and the racially-purged database from which it came- a so-called "British Isles" sample which excluded Irish & Welsh. Griff's negative result is partly balanced by David Moore's L1402 & L1403. Perhaps we need a candidate from the Griffeth/Hughes/Gibson/Thomas etc group to do WTY next. We have already raised about a third of the funds required for that.

Rory

Thanks to financial tinkering by the Federal Reserve over the past two years that have wiped out my retirement funds, I am tragically tapped out financially as today is both mortgage payment and federal income tax payment day. Will have to start selling stuff soon to stay above water.

Griff

TigerMW
04-16-2013, 03:47 AM
Thanks to financial tinkering by the Federal Reserve over the past two years that have wiped out my retirement funds, I am tragically tapped out financially as today is both mortgage payment and federal income tax payment day. Will have to start selling stuff soon to stay above water.

Griff

Sorry about that. What they are doing is going to end up very scary, I fear.

We've got a few more R1b folks coming over here to this forum and DMXX has create a few more subcategories, i.e. one for L21.

TigerMW
04-16-2013, 06:14 PM
...
We've got a few more R1b folks coming over here to this forum and DMXX has create a few more subcategories, i.e. one for L21.

Just a heads up. I think this thread will move underneath the L21 sub-category soon so please be looking and don't be alarmed.

Rory Cain
04-26-2013, 11:11 PM
David, is there anything else I should test for? Not sure I am so very Irish as opposed to Scot or Welsh as you've suggested elsewhere. :\

Griff

Griff, given that your surname is an obvious variant of Griffith, perhaps the ultimate & classic North Wales surname, and given your match with David Hughes who ancestors hailed from Flintshire, your North Wales credentials are strong. Nothing else for you to test for at present, and unlikely to be until we have any new discoveries from WTY. The latest discoveries from WTY, L1402 & L1403 appear to cover several of the surnames known as the "Seven Septs of Laois" - O'More/Moore, Doolan/Dowling, Kelly/Kelley and still spreading outwards from that core group.

Since your fellow DYS450=9 kinfolks including myself & Mike Caine are L1402-, L1403-, there appears little value in you testing for these. They appear to be a "brother" clade to L658 which Mike & I have. We don't yet have a SNP for the Griffeth/Gibson/Sharpe etc guys who are genetically very close to L658. WTY possibly offers the best chance of finding your SNP. Perhaps when WTY 3 become available with new primers. Your contribution is much appreciated and noting your remarks elsewhere, I hope you don't have to return to busking on the streets as you possibly did when a struggling young musician. Too bad a few others won't carry the load too. Apart from a struggling musician, the other contributors tend to be folks with a record of service to their country through Army, Air Force & law enforcement. Our candidate ought to be one of the contributors of course, so could be a Griffeth, a Gibson or a Sharpe.

Rory

David
04-27-2013, 05:18 AM
202200 (Dolan) came back as L1402+ L1403+. Dolan is far enough away from the Moore kits to meet the ISOGG diversity requirement, and I have sent in a request to add to the ISOGG tree.

L1402 will define a new clade (R1b1a2a1a2c1g2a1c-L1402) under R-DF5, while L1403 will be listed as "under investigation, approximately equivalent to L1402." This is an arbitrary choice of which to put on the tree, and which to list as under investigaton; preference is to *not* put both on the tree, because with the relatively small number of test results, we really don't know if they are equivalent or not. The extended Moore clan is encouraged to continue testing both.

Regards,
david

David
04-27-2013, 07:14 AM
And Kelley, kit 205429, also came back L1402+ L1403+.

In addition, the CTS3655- result for Caine (120655) just showed up, confirming the proposed phylogeny under R-DF5.

Rory Cain
04-27-2013, 08:08 AM
And Kelley, kit 205429, also came back L1402+ L1403+.



With the several Moores, Doolin & Dolan, and now Kelley, we see three of the "Seven Septs of Laois" represented amongst L1402+, L1403+ results. A fourth surname of the Seven Septs of Laois, namely Lalor/Lawlor/Lawler has a collection of test results that match the L1402+, L1303+ genotype. In addition to being one of the Seven Septs of Laois, the Gaelic genealogies record O'Lawlor as a branch of the Clanna Rory, of which O'More was prince. Surnames from the Seven septs of Laois with the L1402+, L1403+ genotype include:
O'Dunlaing (Dowling, Doolan, etc) = 6 with 2 in the R-Df21 project
O'Kelly = 8 of whom one is in the R-DF21 project
O'Lawlor = 2 but nil in the R-Df21 project
O'More (etc) = 7 with 5 in the R-Df21 projec

No-one has yet been successful in recruiting the Lawlor (etc) guys into the R-DF21 & Clades project, or persuading them to test for L1402+ & L1403+. However they match the L1402+, L1403+ genotype so we might move on to the remaining Seven Septs of Laois:
O'Devoy/ Deevy
O'Doran
McEvoy
(if any are found with the L1402+, L1403+ genotype).
In addition the L1402+, L1403+ genotype appears to have spread into several other surnames including a Phelan from Co Laois, and Ryan, a Co Tipperary surname so not far removed geographically.

GRL
05-01-2013, 12:22 AM
My surname is among the seven septs. A paternal ancestor may have been adopted, though. I'd love to know whether my DNA fits the others who have been tested.

I have had my y-chromosome DNA tested, but it was several years ago and I don't know how to correlate the results with the numbers and letters you are talking about here. Is there a resource I could use to check it out?

The markers listed on my results look like DYS385. They all start with DYS except five, which start with YCA, YGAT, GATA, and GGAAT.

Thanks!

David
05-01-2013, 09:14 AM
My surname is among the seven septs. A paternal ancestor may have been adopted, though. I'd love to know whether my DNA fits the others who have been tested.

I have had my y-chromosome DNA tested, but it was several years ago and I don't know how to correlate the results with the numbers and letters you are talking about here. Is there a resource I could use to check it out?

The markers listed on my results look like DYS385. They all start with DYS except five, which start with YCA, YGAT, GATA, and GGAAT.

Thanks!

You can look at the STR values of the results in Group B1 here:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF21/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

Or you can e-mail a copy of your results to [email protected] and I would be happy to compare for you.

Regards,
david
R-DF21 group admin

GRL
05-01-2013, 03:05 PM
Thank you! The 22 markers that I have on my record that match those on the familytreedna page match exactly with Group C3, DF21 > Z246 > DF25 > DF5 > CTS3655+ (L627-), 21-246-255-G .

Would you say that means I'm not a blood Lawlor? There is one name in that set from Ireland, but the name doesn't look Irish.

Thanks again --
Gary Lawlor


You can look at the STR values of the results in Group B1 here:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF21/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

Or you can e-mail a copy of your results to [email protected] and I would be happy to compare for you.

Regards,
david
R-DF21 group admin

Rory Cain
05-08-2013, 07:42 AM
Thank you! The 22 markers that I have on my record that match those on the familytreedna page match exactly with Group C3, DF21 > Z246 > DF25 > DF5 > CTS3655+ (L627-), 21-246-255-G .

Would you say that means I'm not a blood Lawlor? There is one name in that set from Ireland, but the name doesn't look Irish.

Thanks again --
Gary Lawlor


Gary

Group C3 have a different genotype to the Seven Septs of Laois. However they are also DF5+ & Z248+, so part of the same ethnic group, perhaps even the same tribe in ancient times. I have my thoughts on which of the recorded Celtic tribes that was, but am keeping my powder dry. My suggestion is to join the R-DF21 & Clades project.

I wouldn't say yet that you are not a blood Lawlor. Single origins are the exception and multiple surnames the norm in Irish genealogy. Together Kelly and O'Kelly are the 2nd commonest surname in Ireland, mostly because there were numerous septs of that name. The most prominent were the O'Kelly princes of Ui Maine in Co Galway. the other O'Kelly septs were smaller, including the O'Kelly sept of Co Laois. We don't have enough Lawlor DNA results to say whether Lawlor was a single sept surname or whether there were several septs of the name, in which case one of them could be yours. But if you match Group C3, join the project and join us on our voyage of discovery.

Rory

Griff
05-09-2013, 10:31 PM
Griff, given that your surname is an obvious variant of Griffith, perhaps the ultimate & classic North Wales surname, and given your match with David Hughes who ancestors hailed from Flintshire, your North Wales credentials are strong. Nothing else for you to test for at present, and unlikely to be until we have any new discoveries from WTY. The latest discoveries from WTY, L1402 & L1403 appear to cover several of the surnames known as the "Seven Septs of Laois" - O'More/Moore, Doolan/Dowling, Kelly/Kelley and still spreading outwards from that core group.

Since your fellow DYS450=9 kinfolks including myself & Mike Caine are L1402-, L1403-, there appears little value in you testing for these. They appear to be a "brother" clade to L658 which Mike & I have. We don't yet have a SNP for the Griffeth/Gibson/Sharpe etc guys who are genetically very close to L658. WTY possibly offers the best chance of finding your SNP. Perhaps when WTY 3 become available with new primers. Your contribution is much appreciated and noting your remarks elsewhere, I hope you don't have to return to busking on the streets as you possibly did when a struggling young musician. Too bad a few others won't carry the load too. Apart from a struggling musician, the other contributors tend to be folks with a record of service to their country through Army, Air Force & law enforcement. Our candidate ought to be one of the contributors of course, so could be a Griffeth, a Gibson or a Sharpe.

Rory

Thanks so much for the encouragement, cousin Rory. I am being forced to sell my $55K Steinway grand piano soon, and might have a bit more to contribute if/when that happens. Please don't worry about me (despite my complaints) because I know a lot of people who are silently in the same boat. I feel fairly positive that an unique SNP will eventually be found to give our Griffeth/Gibson/Sharpe group an identity and perhaps, a pin on the map of Northern England.

Cheers
-Griff

Rory Cain
05-09-2013, 11:41 PM
Thanks so much for the encouragement, cousin Rory. I am being forced to sell my $55K Steinway grand piano soon, and might have a bit more to contribute if/when that happens. Please don't worry about me (despite my complaints) because I know a lot of people who are silently in the same boat. I feel fairly positive that an unique SNP will eventually be found to give our Griffeth/Gibson/Sharpe group an identity and perhaps, a pin on the map of Northern England.
Cheers
-Griff

Griff, I am so sorry to hear of a musician selling his beloved grand piano. Fellow WTY Mike Caine tells me that the United Kingdom is so bad he cannot retire and is a slave to his engineering business. My superannuation and savings also took a torpedo in the guts.

Re WTY, I thank you for your contribution. We made it. You helped us to get to where Ernest (Gibson kit) was able to contribute the remainder, with contributions also from David Reynolds and Erik Maher, admins at the R-DF21 project. Ernest's uncle has a sample kit already and next his kit number should appear in WTY. David tells me there is one other kit presently in the pipeline, so the backlog is gone and hopefully the wait won't be so long as it was for Mike Caine. Among the SNPs waiting to be discovered there presumably may be a Gibson private marker, a Griffeth/Gibson (etc) brother to L658, a father to L658 that would cover all us DYS450=9 Gibson, Griffeth & Cain folks, and/or a grandfather to L658 that might pick up other CTS3655- folks. Or a nil result, an unfortunate feature of WTY at times. Nonetheless despite sometimes not delivering a product for the money outlaid, WTY seems to be the best option. It is at least capable of delivering new SNPs. The others just work over the same old, same old. Some talk of whole genome sequencing for $1K, one day.

We have a saying in the Australian Army re the beer ration: "Two cans, per man, per day, per-haps." In DNA, it's all "Perhaps".

Rory

TigerMW
05-23-2013, 05:00 PM
DF21 folks might want to check out the new version of the L21 spreadsheet. There are a number of new DF21 suspects.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?849-R1b-L21-Haplotypes-Spreadsheet

Any comments on f162032 MacNicol ? He is DF13 but untested for DF21.

He does not have close GDs with many known L21+ folks but among his closer (but not close) matches are the following
f162032 MacNicol R1b-P312>L21>DF13 DF13+ L96- L144- zzDF13unassigned
f120966 Singleton R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>L720+ L720+ 21-720-Loc
f53766 Farris R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>L720+ L720+ L144- L195- L526- L564- L580- L679- L130- 3c1g 21-720-Loc
f169548 Warthen R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L144- zzL21unassigned

They all have 391=10 389i=14 444=13 487=14. 487 is quite slow so I think there is a possibility here. Of course Singleton and Farris are DF21+.

Except for Warthen they also have 449=31 464a,b,c=14,15,16,$

History-of-Things
05-23-2013, 06:59 PM
I wouldn't rule out DF21 for MacNicol, but I'm dubious that he could be close enough to be L720 (or if he were, he'd make us much older, which could be interesting). Of course ideally he would test for DF21 and then we can debate the category wherein he may lie.....

TigerMW
05-23-2013, 07:08 PM
I wouldn't rule out DF21 for MacNicol, but I'm dubious that he could be close enough to be L720 (or if he were, he'd make us much older, which could be interesting). Of course ideally he would test for DF21 and then we can debate the category wherein he may lie.....

Agreed. Hopefully the DF21 advocates will try to contact him and ask him to test. He's already tested for DF13 so apparently he is familiar with ala carte SNP ordering.

A great way to reach him might be through the MacNicol project. It looks like there is another of his type in the project.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/macnicol,macnicol,macnicol/default.aspx?section=yresults
217296 Nichols Benjamin Nichols, ca 1746-ca 1800 R1b1a2
162032 Nichols Thomas Nichols, m. 1805, Rowan County, NC R1b1a2a1a1b4

This might show us that 162032's 459=9,9 is a red herring (recent mutation) as 217296 is the standard 9,10.

David
05-25-2013, 12:30 AM
WTY for kit 34503 (Gibson), Mike's variety 21-246-255-A-D, is now in the WTY queue, fully approved and paid for. This variety is the largest remaining clump of R-DF5* people, so it would be great if we can find a SNP specific to them. Thanks to Rory Cain and Ernest Johnson for leading the funding effort, and a big thank you to all the people who contributed towards the cost of this WTY.

TigerMW
06-05-2013, 09:06 PM
I think L1336 is very close to making ISOGG under DF21. GDs are now up to 12 at 67 within the L1336+ group.
f149586 McLaughlin is L1336+ and he is R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21* so he proves L1336 is not under the any of the other DF21 downstream subclades.



The fifth L1336+ result is in, for kit 76306 (Moore), who is in Moore Worldwide Group 36 with 120616 in whom L1336 was discovered.

Markers of interest for this kit with regard to L1336:
456=16 like 91126, as opposed to 456=15 (Gregory, McLaughlin, and the other Moore).
576=17 like 120616 (Moore) and 91126, as opposed to 576=16 (Gregory) and 576=19 (McLaughlin).
617=12 like 120616 (Moore) and 36102 (Gregory), as opposed to 617=13 (91126 and McLaughlin).

Markers not seen yet in L1336+ until this kit: 464c=15, 464d=16, H4=9, CDYb=35.


Dr Wilson confirmed today that his own sample (which is S424+ S190+) is L1336-.

He also reported that none of his WGS datasets were L1336+.

This establishes that S424 is not under L1336. It leaves open the possibility that L1336 might be under S424.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/16160

Rory Cain
06-16-2013, 11:16 PM
WTY for kit 34503 (Gibson), Mike's variety 21-246-255-A-D, is now in the WTY queue, fully approved and paid for. This variety is the largest remaining clump of R-DF5* people, so it would be great if we can find a SNP specific to them. Thanks to Rory Cain and Ernest Johnson for leading the funding effort, and a big thank you to all the people who contributed towards the cost of this WTY.

Ernest's kit is listed in finch under L21(DF13) rather than under DF5 where one would look first. The first phase of testing, his DYS464 series, was processed recently. Next will be his SNPs.

I second's David's motion of thanks to Ernest as the biggest financial contributor, with other contributions from David Reynolds & Erik Bjarling Maher of the R-DF21 project, plus Glen Sharpe, Janet Sharp MacArthur, Doug Neslund Griffeth, Mary & Gib Gibson. WTY looks somewhat passe now that fullgenomes has entered the field, with a full Y-chromosome sequencing service that also provides 300 or so STRs and also mtDNA, all for $1499. David Reynolds, Erik Maher & myself have all ordered or intend to order fullgenomes. Those orders will provide a cross-reference for any new SNP found in the Gibson kit. A fullgenomes test from one of the Griffeth/Gibson/Hughes/Jones/Morgan/Thomas/Davenport/Hodnett/Sharpe group would be an even better cross-reference, but there have been no expressions of interest to date. Jones, Morgan & the Hodnetts have been absolutely dormant & have not responded to anything nor have they joined the R-Df21 project. Ernest's new SNPs from fullgenomes might spark more interest amongst the existing members of the Griffeth/Gibson etc DYS450=9 group members of the R-Df21 project.

TigerMW
06-18-2013, 10:04 PM
I wonder if Alan has any comments on this.

P314.2 has a pretty strong STR signature that includes 388=13, which is extremely slow and a rare value within L21.
P314.2's signature includes 388=13 406s1=11 and usually 390<=23. Its distribution is pretty much Irish with a few Scots and English. There is one sub-cluster that has a Norwegian and a Benelux person.

There is a person who matches the unusual STR signature but was thrown out by SNP testing.
f208773 Reith

He ended up being P314.2- and I wouldn't have thought that much about it except he tested for DF21 and he is DF21+. There just can't be many lineages of 390<=23 388=13 406s1=11 people, especially within DF21 so I don't think it is a coincidence. Hence, I surmise that Reith is "pre-P314.2" and a cousin of a kind.

The peculiarity here is that Reith is from Germany so we have a potential path from of cousins from Germany through the Low Countries/Norway to Ireland.

Of course, we have the Wild Geese, etc., but Reith's not of an Irish cluster. He's a distant cousin only remotely related.

alan
06-18-2013, 11:14 PM
I wonder if Alan has any comments on this.

P314.2 has a pretty strong STR signature that includes 388=13, which is extremely slow and a rare value within L21.
P314.2's signature includes 388=13 406s1=11 and usually 390<=23. Its distribution is pretty much Irish with a few Scots and English. There is one sub-cluster that has a Norwegian and a Benelux person.

There is a person who matches the unusual STR signature but was thrown out by SNP testing.
f208773 Reith

He ended up being P314.2- and I wouldn't have thought that much about it except he tested for DF21 and he is DF21+. There just can't be many lineages of 390<=23 388=13 406s1=11 people, especially within DF21 so I don't think it is a coincidence. Hence, I surmise that Reith is "pre-P314.2" and a cousin of a kind.

The peculiarity here is that Reith is from Germany so we have a potential path from of cousins from Germany through the Low Countries/Norway to Ireland.

Of course, we have the Wild Geese, etc., but Reith's not of an Irish cluster. He's a distant cousin only remotely related.

If I recall correctly the Norwegian and Benelux guys are also thought to be the early break off too. I believe most of the isles are P314.2 cluster much closer and a lot of the age of the clade is caused by the continental outliers. It is unusual the way the continentals connected with this group also have a distribution more in the Germanic part of Europe. On the other hand it has an extremely maritime distribution along the western seaboard of both Ireland and Highland Scotland which is not what would be expected from its continental distribution. I dont really know what to make of it to be honest. One thought I had was it was a wayward lineage that went east early on on the continent in the Bronze Age, got integrated into the future Germanic area and that it was brought to the Atlantic fringe by Vikings at a later date. There has been a lot of discussions about this. Of course there is also the complication that this is also subordinate to the DF21 origin question. When you look at DF21 as a whole the model I just outlined is hard to sustain. It is very hard to make sense of. The only thing that stands out is how hyper-maritime much of P314.2 looks. Really looks like people in boats to me. That might explain the weirdness of distribution. Maybe at some point DF21 and pre/early P314.2 had an intermediate position between its isles far west peak and the continentals like the English channel which allowed it to pass in two very different directions by sea. To be honest I am baffled by it.

Rory Cain
06-19-2013, 01:04 AM
One thought I had was it was a wayward lineage that went east early on on the continent in the Bronze Age, got integrated into the future Germanic area and that it was brought to the Atlantic fringe by Vikings at a later date. There has been a lot of discussions about this. Of course there is also the complication that this is also subordinate to the DF21 origin question. When you look at DF21 as a whole the model I just outlined is hard to sustain. It is very hard to make sense of. The only thing that stands out is how hyper-maritime much of P314.2 looks. Really looks like people in boats to me. That might explain the weirdness of distribution. Maybe at some point DF21 and pre/early P314.2 had an intermediate position between its isles far west peak and the continentals like the English channel which allowed it to pass in two very different directions by sea. To be honest I am baffled by it.

Remember when P312 was discovered? It separated the Europeans from those further east on the steppes. All the big guys on the block missed the significance of this because the traditional wisdom was that R1b wintered out the Ice Age in Spain and spread north along the Atlantic shores. What the big guys missed, plucky little 23andme picked up on and they included it in their testing. P312 and its greater genetic diversity in the east basically flipped the coin over, to a migration started in the east, followed the Danube to the Alps and then followed the Rhine down to the Atlantic and the Isles. So whether anyone, including P314.2, went any direction depends on where they started. If the P314.2 mutation arose prior to the migration from the Alps to the Atlantic, then we would expect to see some traces of it along the migration route. Perhaps that is what we see on the continent.

Since P312/P314.2 in fact migrated to the Isles much later than the ice sheets as previously thought, "people in boats" is a logical suggestion. Inevitable, even. Very little is recorded except for Caesar using Celtic/Belgic support for their cousins across the Channel as justification for invading Britain. Caesar also wiped out the seafaring Ventei of modernday Brittany, perhaps for the same reason. The Menapi of Belgica (modernday Benelux) took over the seafaring role from the Veneti until they were forced by Romans and Germans to evacuate the continent for southeast ireland, the Isle of Man and other places to which they had established routes. Fr Tom O'Connor's Hand of History has one of the best accounts of these boat people, whose movements we may be uncovering now through DNA.

The Menapi founded numerous settlements in Ireland and elsewhere. Whether DF21 & P314.2 were branches of the Menapi, or of the Brigantes, to whom the Menapi attached their pedigree, is not yet proven. But I like Alan's suggestion of , "people in boats". Alan's suggestion of "people in boats" is looking more likely than land bridges and ice shelves of an earlier (too early) era.

rms2
06-19-2013, 08:05 AM
I think one would be hard pressed to find a clade of L21 that doesn't appear to be maritime. We are talking about a y haplogroup whose greatest frequencies occur on islands at the Atlantic periphery of a continent that is itself a big peninsula, after all.

alan
06-19-2013, 10:40 AM
Remember when P312 was discovered? It separated the Europeans from those further east on the steppes. All the big guys on the block missed the significance of this because the traditional wisdom was that R1b wintered out the Ice Age in Spain and spread north along the Atlantic shores. What the big guys missed, plucky little 23andme picked up on and they included it in their testing. P312 and its greater genetic diversity in the east basically flipped the coin over, to a migration started in the east, followed the Danube to the Alps and then followed the Rhine down to the Atlantic and the Isles. So whether anyone, including P314.2, went any direction depends on where they started. If the P314.2 mutation arose prior to the migration from the Alps to the Atlantic, then we would expect to see some traces of it along the migration route. Perhaps that is what we see on the continent.

Since P312/P314.2 in fact migrated to the Isles much later than the ice sheets as previously thought, "people in boats" is a logical suggestion. Inevitable, even. Very little is recorded except for Caesar using Celtic/Belgic support for their cousins across the Channel as justification for invading Britain. Caesar also wiped out the seafaring Ventei of modernday Brittany, perhaps for the same reason. The Menapi of Belgica (modernday Benelux) took over the seafaring role from the Veneti until they were forced by Romans and Germans to evacuate the continent for southeast ireland, the Isle of Man and other places to which they had established routes. Fr Tom O'Connor's Hand of History has one of the best accounts of these boat people, whose movements we may be uncovering now through DNA.

The Menapi founded numerous settlements in Ireland and elsewhere. Whether DF21 & P314.2 were branches of the Menapi, or of the Brigantes, to whom the Menapi attached their pedigree, is not yet proven. But I like Alan's suggestion of , "people in boats". Alan's suggestion of "people in boats" is looking more likely than land bridges and ice shelves of an earlier (too early) era.


I like your Menapi theory. Good call. That would kind of edge towards explaining the sort of distribution. As well as being on the mouth of the Rhine, they were also possibly settled in eastern Ireland and maybe too the Isle of Man. The name could just be a soundalike but if not its interesting. My own view of the possible Menapi migration is that they were probably traders who settled in coastal enclaves initially before they were shunted inland. I do not think they could have been a large settlement at the point they arrived because of a lack of Belgic type archaeological material in Ireland. I like the theory that they held Drummanagh promontory fort as a kind of trade emporium. The Brigantes may have done something similar on Lambay Island. In Ireland the Menapi have been linked with groups in other areas in later times suggesting they were shunted west over time. That would be a general DF21 theory that included a litle P314.2 within it I suppose? There were as well other Celtic groups in Britain too like the Brigantes who may have shunted to Ireland. What do we known about DF21 outside Ireland/Scotland?

alan
06-19-2013, 10:50 AM
I think one would be hard pressed to find a clade of L21 that doesn't appear to be maritime. We are talking about a y haplogroup whose greatest frequencies occur on islands at the Atlantic periphery of a continent that is itself a big peninsula, after all.

True but P312.4 in the isles has a very striking hyper Atlantic distribution all along the western coasts of the whole length of Ireland and into the hebrides. Its like it followed the outermost sea routes rather than the Irish Sea. It is possibly however that that is just the end-game of that clade and it didnt originally have that distribution. One possibility is it was very much involved in coastal trading all around the coasts of Ireland, settled in enclaves, but the more easterly part of it has been erased by later movements, leaving only the extreme western part of the coastal patterns. Another peculiarity of P312.2 is that it is spread throught dozens of surnames (names spread over the entire length of the outer Atlantic coasts of Ireland and Scotland in the main) as singletons with the same surnames only occuring multiply is a few cases. That is not the typical pattern of Irish lineage expansion. It suggests to me there is something unusual about the lineage. I have speculated in the past it could have been some sort of specialist lineage. Only traders, craftsmen and learned class people like poets, musicians, mercenaries etc could easily pass between tribes and petty kingdoms in the Gaelic world.

alan
06-19-2013, 11:14 AM
I just had a look at the FTDNA overall DF21 map. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-df21/default.aspx?section=ymap

Again, the pattern is rather like P314.2 on its own with there being a surprising representation in what is would have been the extreme north-eastern part of the old L21 world back in time (I suppose the Bronze Age) in what is now the Germanic speaking world. I would still think L21 as a whole originated in northern France and adjacent but we know there is a significant amount of L21 in Scandinavia and perhaps DF21 was one of those that at some time in prehistory partly headed in that direction. Again, an intermediate point of origin makes sense rather than one in the far west or far north-east of the distribution. I was looking at a post from about a year ago that suggested that DF21 was almost as old as L21. Is that still true? It would make sense to me if it was and its continental distribution would also provide rare evidence of the more easterly role of L21 on the continent. It is now recognised how important the beaker influence was on Scandinavia and someone has to have brought that.

TigerMW
06-19-2013, 02:44 PM
... I was looking at a post from about a year ago that suggested that DF21 was almost as old as L21. Is that still true?

Here is my logic, Alan.

STR variance is high but due to biases I wouldn't try to be too precise with concluding too much on that.

I can not find any STRs that are common off-modal STRs across all of the clusters and subclades of DF21. By that I mean that there is no off-modal (from L21) STR that I can see that appears ancestral for any particular subgroup of DF21 that also appears ancestral for all of the the major other subgroups.

Since there are zero off-modals common across DF21, my best guess for an ancestral haplotype for DF21 is DF13's, which would be equal to L21's.

If two people have the same haplotype at 67 markers they are closely related. Hence, the age of the DF21 MRCA can't be too much different than the age of DF13 and L21.

TigerMW
07-03-2013, 01:48 AM
Here are some DF21 suspects I picked up in the last week. They are only based on 67 markers so I'm not checking some of the key DF5 markers. The third column is the project you can find them in. The last column is the STR signature variety I cluster them with. There is one Frenchmen in the bunch.

228094 Delleney zzCountry Cumberland 21-1123-Aran
236793 Delleney zzCountry Cumberland 21-1123-Aran
37168 Burke Ireland Cumberland 21-1123-Aran
119946 Davidson zzCountry Davis/Davidson 21-1511
149751 Davidson zzCountry Davis/Davidson 21-1511
177245 Davison zzCountry Davis/Davidson 21-1511
22127 Davidson Ireland Davis/Davidson 21-1511
22233 Davison zzCountry Davis/Davidson 21-1511
237471 Davidfson zzCountry Davis/Davidson 21-1511
241075 Purvis zzCountry Davis/Davidson 21-1511
36704 Davison zzCountry Davis/Davidson 21-1511
41424 Davidson Scotland Davis/Davidson 21-1511
70366 Gordon zzCountry Davis/Davidson 21-1511
78574 Davison Scotland Davis/Davidson 21-1511
88694 Davidson zzCountry Davis/Davidson 21-1511
134472 Carter England Cumberland 21-1722
62154 Davidson Scotland Davis/Davidson 21-1722
178413 Davidson zzCountry Davis/Davidson 21-2225-EC
93928 Caroll zzCountry Cumberland 21-2225-EC
239585 Davis zzCountry Davis/Davidson 21-246-25-1321
24759 Nesbitt Ireland Nesbitt 21-246-25-1321
227288 Bullock zzCountry Cumberland 21-246-255- uas
31938 Runion France Cumberland 21-246-255-3655-X
47005 Moore zzCountry Cumberland 21-246-255-3655-X
136992 Conner Ireland Cumberland 21-5909-A
56344 Quinn Ireland Irish 21-5909-A
117407 Bogle zzCountry Cumberland 21-5909-LS
131964 McCall zzCountry Cumberland 21-5909-LS
158128 Sloan Ireland Cumberland 21-5909-LS
115932 Holland zzCountry Cumberland 21-9928

The caveat is they are just suspects due to their STR off-modal signatures and low to medium GDs at 67 STRs. They all need SNP testing.

Erik_Maher
07-09-2013, 04:25 PM
On the L720 front, 162032's (Nichols) result came back L720-. Ten other Nichols in his Clan MacNicol / Nicholson / Nichols grouping have 459=9-10.

On the L1336 front, my Full Genomes kit sent to Harrisonburg yesterday, kit N3362 (Maher). Besides providing data for comparison against the (so far three?) other DF21+ Full Genomes results, this will also be a massively-overkill way to find out if my L1336- result was accurate or merely a lab error. Hoping 124392 (Meagher) will test L1336+ soon.


Agreed. Hopefully the DF21 advocates will try to contact him and ask him to test. He's already tested for DF13 so apparently he is familiar with ala carte SNP ordering.

A great way to reach him might be through the MacNicol project. It looks like there is another of his type in the project.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/macnicol,macnicol,macnicol/default.aspx?section=yresults
217296 Nichols Benjamin Nichols, ca 1746-ca 1800 R1b1a2
162032 Nichols Thomas Nichols, m. 1805, Rowan County, NC R1b1a2a1a1b4

This might show us that 162032's 459=9,9 is a red herring (recent mutation) as 217296 is the standard 9,10.

Rory Cain
07-09-2013, 11:56 PM
WTY for kit 34503 (Gibson), Mike's variety 21-246-255-A-D, is now in the WTY queue, fully approved and paid for. This variety is the largest remaining clump of R-DF5* people, so it would be great if we can find a SNP specific to them. Thanks to Rory Cain and Ernest Johnson for leading the funding effort, and a big thank you to all the people who contributed towards the cost of this WTY.

34503 Gibson's WTY passed the PCR stage on 5 July so should be getting sequenced about now. If we do gain a new SNP from this WTY, my full genomes test results should soon provide a comparison.

TigerMW
07-11-2013, 12:13 PM
An Italian DF21+ has been found and, importantly, he is an outlier.


Kit 285483 (Rutelli), with a distinctive Y111 signature, just transferred from
Geno 2.0 to the R-DF21 project.

Given the current tiny scattering of NW European ancestors among the mass of
DF21+ Isles ancestors, this Italian DF21+ is a significant bit of news.

At Y111, the closest match is 112244 (Harbour) is GD=20/111, with all other kits
ranging from GD=33/111 to GD=55/111. This suggests that it is less likely that
the DF21+ Y-DNA was introduced in the last few centuries. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/16660

Here are the non-Isles DF21 people, besides Rutelli.

fE9807 Kaptein Z246+ DF25- L144- 21-246- uas Netherlands
f42087 Via DF5+ L144- 21-246-255- uas France
fN28650 Conrardy P314.2+ L362- L144- 3c1g 21-314-P13-B Luxembourg, Pratz
fN5924 Måland(Hjelmeland) P314.2+ L362- 21-314-P13-B Norway, Rogaland, Hjelmeland
f208773 Reith DF21+ P314.2- Z246- L144- L876- 21-314X Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover
f158136 Montgomery DF21+ Z2542+ Z2542+ P314.2- Z246- L144- 21-9913 France
f220430 Sanda(Hurdal) DF21+ P314.2- L144- 21-n922-A1 Norway, Østlandet, Co. Akershus, Hurdal

alan
07-11-2013, 02:37 PM
An Italian DF21+ has been found and, importantly, he is an outlier.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/16660

Here are the non-Isles DF21 people, besides Rutelli.

fE9807 Kaptein Z246+ DF25- L144- 21-246- uas Netherlands
f42087 Via DF5+ L144- 21-246-255- uas France
fN28650 Conrardy P314.2+ L362- L144- 3c1g 21-314-P13-B Luxembourg, Pratz
fN5924 Måland(Hjelmeland) P314.2+ L362- 21-314-P13-B Norway, Rogaland, Hjelmeland
f208773 Reith DF21+ P314.2- Z246- L144- L876- 21-314X Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover
f158136 Montgomery DF21+ Z2542+ Z2542+ P314.2- Z246- L144- 21-9913 France
f220430 Sanda(Hurdal) DF21+ P314.2- L144- 21-n922-A1 Norway, Østlandet, Co. Akershus, Hurdal

Its an interesting bunch. You could say the centre of gravity is much more north and east than for L21 as a whole. I would say their is more than a suggestion of maritime links there. Almost like it travelled the North Sea rather than the Atlantic. I know from looking at P314.2 in the isles it has a very markedly maritime distribution albeit a very western one. Clearly folks with boats rather than landlocked chaps.

Rory Cain
07-17-2013, 11:11 PM
34503 Gibson's WTY passed the PCR stage on 5 July so should be getting sequenced about now. If we do gain a new SNP from this WTY, my full genomes test results should soon provide a comparison.

Finch now shows L1446 text to 34503 Gibson's WTY test results. Ytree shows three new SNPs under DF5: L1446, L1447 & L1448. Nice to know our investment wasn't wasted on an equally possible "no new SNPs outcome". We now have to wait until my Fullgenomes y-genome results come in belatedly (16-20 weeks?) to see if the O Cathain half of the DYS450=9 group share these SNPs. Unless David Reynolds can re-blast the WTYs for myself or Mike Caine in finch.

Rory Cain
07-18-2013, 12:43 AM
Finch now shows L1446 text to 34503 Gibson's WTY test results. Ytree shows three new SNPs under DF5: L1446, L1447 & L1448. Nice to know our investment wasn't wasted on an equally possible "no new SNPs outcome". We now have to wait until my Fullgenomes y-genome results come in belatedly (16-20 weeks?) to see if the O Cathain half of the DYS450=9 group share these SNPs. Unless David Reynolds can re-blast the WTYs for myself or Mike Caine in finch.

Duh! With a little more research, I believe I can now answer my own question. L1446 and L1447 were found using the DF21 primer while L1448 was found using the L502 primer. Neither myself nor Mike Caine were tested for DF21 or L502 even though DF21 (and DF25, Z246 & Z248) were discovered some time prior to Mike's WTY. It seems that as with P312, FTDNA did not appreciate the significance of these discoveries at the time. Perhaps, as with P312, it took 23andme to enlighten them. So right now, despite two previous WTYs from fellow DYS442=11, DYS450=9 guys like Gibson, we are still in the dark as to whether these new SNPs are private or polymorphisms. I am guessing that it should not require very long for FTDNA to be able to re-badge their DF21 & L503 primers in L1446, L1447 & 1448 format?

Rory Cain
07-20-2013, 07:21 AM
Duh! With a little more research, I believe I can now answer my own question. L1446 and L1447 were found using the DF21 primer while L1448 was found using the L502 primer. Neither myself nor Mike Caine were tested for DF21 or L502 even though DF21 (and DF25, Z246 & Z248) were discovered some time prior to Mike's WTY. It seems that as with P312, FTDNA did not appreciate the significance of these discoveries at the time. Perhaps, as with P312, it took 23andme to enlighten them. So right now, despite two previous WTYs from fellow DYS442=11, DYS450=9 guys like Gibson, we are still in the dark as to whether these new SNPs are private or polymorphisms. I am guessing that it should not require very long for FTDNA to be able to re-badge their DF21 & L503 primers in L1446, L1447 & 1448 format?

David Reynolds asked me to advise that FTDNA have already listed L1446, L1448 & L1448 as available to order. Those DF5+ folks who have tested CTS3655-, L1402- & L1403- might be the best candidates. 34503 Gibson in whose sample these new SNPs were found is DF5+, Z248+, CTS3655-, L1402- and L1403-.

Griff
07-29-2013, 03:46 AM
David Reynolds asked me to advise that FTDNA have already listed L1446, L1448 & L1448 as available to order. Those DF5+ folks who have tested CTS3655-, L1402- & L1403- might be the best candidates. 34503 Gibson in whose sample these new SNPs were found is DF5+, Z248+, CTS3655-, L1402- and L1403-.

I am happy to report that, with a little help from my friends, I am testing for L1446, L1447 and L1448. Back to being excited again!

Griff

TigerMW
07-29-2013, 02:11 PM
I am happy to report that, with a little help from my friends, I am testing for L1446, L1447 and L1448. Back to being excited again!

Griff

I am very happy you are back at it!

Dubhthach
08-01-2013, 11:53 AM
Interesting new DF21+ in the Ireland project this morning:
Duffy (268412). Tested Geno 2.0, his closest match is another Duffy with ancestry in Mayo (L21+ confirmed, not tested for DF21) whom he has a GD of 7 from. As a Duffy I find this interesting namely as there are multiple independent origins of the surname. We know for example that the Duffy's of Monaghan cluster in Clan Colla and are also DF21+ (425 null). Traditionally there's regarded as three independent origins these been:


Donegal
Roscommon
Monaghan


In each of these cases the name in Irish is Ó Dubhthaigh (grandson/descendant of Dubhthach). Now Duffy is also a common name in Mayo, however a large number of Mayo Duffy's actually carry a different surname (in Irish) which was "assimilated" to Duffy during the angliscation process. This name use to have older angliscation of "O'Diff"


Ó DOITHE—I—O Dohie, O'Diff, (Duffy); an old Mayo surname, still common in that county and in Co. Galway, but always made Duffy in English. Baile Ui Dhoithe, anglicised Ballyduffy, in the parish of Addergoole, Co. Mayo, marks the site of the ancient residence of the family.

In comparison:

Ó DUBHTHAIGH—I—O Duffie, O Duhie, O Duhig, O Dowhie, O Dowey, O'Duffy, Duffy, Duhy, Duhig, Dowey, Douey, Dooey, Doey, &c, and sometimes, by translation, Black; 'descendant of Dubhthach' (black). This surname is found in all parts of Ireland, and, doubtless, there are several distinct families so called. The O'Duffys of Connacht are remarkable for the number of eminent prelates they formerly gave to the church in that province. The O'Duffys were also a family of note in Monaghan. In Munster, the name is generally anglicised Duhig, owing to the pronunciation of the final g. The family is, according to Keating, of Dalcassian origin. In Ulster, where the name is very common, especially in Monaghan and Donegal, it is sometimes anglicised Dowey and Dooey. See Ó Dúithche.

So it's quite possible that these two Duffy's in the Ireland project are actually of the Ó Doithe family. If not they could be of Roscommon Duffy family. What's interesting is again it shows how widespread DF21 is/was in the province of Connacht. Particulary among surnames which were not of "Lordly class" which in comparison appears dominated by Z2961+ (M222 specifically but also Z2961* in form of the Uí Maine)

-Paul
(DF41+)

TigerMW
08-01-2013, 12:59 PM
Interesting new DF21+ in the Ireland project this morning:
Duffy (268412). Tested Geno 2.0, his closest match is another Duffy with ancestry in Mayo (L21+ confirmed, not tested for DF21) whom he has a GD of 7 from. As a Duffy I find this interesting namely as there are multiple independent origins of the surname. We know for example that the Duffy's of Monaghan cluster in Clan Colla and are also DF21+ (425 null). Traditionally there's regarded as three independent origins these been:


Donegal
Roscommon
Monaghan


In each of these cases the name in Irish is Ó Dubhthaigh (grandson/descendant of Dubhthach). Now Duffy is also a common name in Mayo, however a large number of Mayo Duffy's actually carry a different surname (in Irish) which was "assimilated" to Duffy during the angliscation process. This name use to have older angliscation of "O'Diff"

In comparison:

So it's quite possible that these two Duffy's in the Ireland project are actually of the Ó Doithe family. If not they could be of Roscommon Duffy family. What's interesting is again it shows how widespread DF21 is/was in the province of Connacht. Particulary among surnames which were not of "Lordly class" which in comparison appears dominated by Z2961+ (M222 specifically but also Z2961* in form of the Uí Maine)

Very interesting, Paul.

Is there a surname project or two where I'd likely find more "Ó Doithe" descendant people?

This reminds me how lucky I am. There is an old Irish priest, surnamed Walsh, who took it upon himself to collect record on the various Walsh families in Ireland. Almost 100 years ago a J.C. Walsh organized and published those notes as "The Lament for John MacWalter Walsh: With Notes on the History of the Family of Walsh from 1170 to 1690"
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_lament_for_John_MacWalter_Walsh.html?id=to6x17 XiMAQC

Dubhthach
08-01-2013, 01:17 PM
Very interesting, Paul.

Is there a surname project or two where I'd likely find more "Ó Doithe" descendant people?

This reminds me how lucky I am. There is an old Irish priest, surnamed Walsh, who took it upon himself to collect record on the various Walsh families in Ireland. Almost 100 years ago a J.C. Walsh organized and published those notes as "The Lament for John MacWalter Walsh: With Notes on the History of the Family of Walsh from 1170 to 1690"
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_lament_for_John_MacWalter_Walsh.html?id=to6x17 XiMAQC

I doubt it by default, the name is now completely anglicised as Duffy. This is what Woulfe termed as "angliscation by attraction"


3. Attraction.—A surname of comparatively rare occurrence is often attracted to, and confounded with, a better known surname of somewhat similar sound existing in the same locality, and instead of its proper anglicised form assumes that of the better known or more numerous surname. The following are examples:

Surname in Irish -> Anglicised -> attracted to

Ó Bláthmhaic -> Blawick, Blowick -> Blake

Ó Braoin -> O'Breen, Breen -> O'Brien

Ó Duibhdhíorma -> O'Dughierma, Dooyearma -> MacDermott

Ó hEochagáin -> O'Hoghegan -> Mageoghegan

Ó Maoil Sheachlainn -> O'Melaghlin -> MacLoughlin

It must be remembered that a surname of comparatively rare occurrence in one district may be quite common in another, and vice versa, and that consequently the attracting surname in one locality may be itself attracted in another.



I modified the table from the text to use "->" above. Original can be seen here:

http://www.libraryireland.com/names/anglicisation-irish-surnames.php

Rory Cain
08-01-2013, 10:27 PM
Interesting new DF21+ in the Ireland project this morning:

What's interesting is again it shows how widespread DF21 is/was in the province of Connacht. Particulary among surnames which were not of "Lordly class" which in comparison appears dominated by Z2961+ (M222 specifically but also Z2961* in form of the Uí Maine)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Paul, I believe on an earlier occasion you referred to the Ui Fiachra grouping to which my O Cathain sept belonged, as "marcher lords". That appears to be true of the DF21+ Ui Fiachra septs: O Cathain, O Maghna and O Mochain, and quite possibly McKeary & Devilly/Deely if they should test their DNA. Notably O Maghna was actually Lord of Ui Fiachra Aidhne for a time, an interesting case of a DF21+ chief outranking the M222+ originals like Oh Eidhein and O Seanasaigh although the latter regained their status in time.

Of course other chiefly DF21+ were O'Donoghue Ross, Ely O'Carroll, the Seven Septs of Laois and the Airghialla. Some of these septs were overwhelmingly DF21+, others were a DF21+ branch grafted onto a M222 or other tree.

Dubhthach
08-02-2013, 09:21 AM
Rory,

Well "Marcher Lord" is an interesting term for it, though I think it could be argued that all of Z2961+ is somewhat intrusive into Connacht. The prime example of course is the Uí Maine who bordered the "Uí Fhiachrach Aidhne" to the North-East. They have two genealogies, these been:

1. A branch of Clann Colla eg. Airghialla / Oirialla
A branch of the Uí Néill -- through Maine mac Néill -- purported son of Niall Noígiallach (Niall na naoi nGiallach)


Now what's interesting of course is if you consider the political circumstances at the time the political genealogies (because political documents is what they are) had "Clann Colla" as a collateral branch of the Connachta/Uí Néill -- descended from same common ancestor Cairbre Lifechair.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4h2yomnrrlkvon4/cairbre-lifechair.tiff

The fact that second lineage exists pointing to even tighter connection by saying the "Uí Máine" were actually "Uí Néill" could be regarded like been promoted to the "Premier Division".

What's obviously is that among the Uí Maine we see surnames that have M222+ but that the Kelly's (paramount family) are Z2961+/M222-

M222 is after a subclade of Z2961. The SNP trail from L21 looking like the following:
L21+ -> DF13+ -> DF49+ -> DF23+ -> Z2961+ -> M222+

The fact that the Kelly's are showing as Z2961+ but M222- points to a very old connection (perhaps on order of tribal confederation). We know that the Uí Maine were probably the main sub-kingdom of wider province of Connacht and were major players right up until the 16th century.

Their genealogy which claims Clann Colla affliation paints a picture of "Maine Mór" invading Connacht and taking over the Kingdom of the Soghain in East county Galway. The Soghain in Irish genealogies are like the Loíghís regarded as "Cruithne". Likewise there is some debate that the Airghialla were originally subject peoples to the Ulaidh (Ulstermen) who provided a military function, but who later switched allegiance to the Uí Néill/Connachta.

The province of Connacht is named after the Connachta (The three Connachta been the Uí Bhriúin, the Uí Fhiachrach and the Uí nAilleo), before that the province actually had a different name namely: "Cóiced Ol nEchmacht" -- Cóiced is the Old-Irish form for Cúige (literally 1/5th eg. Province)

So the Province of the "Fir Ol nEchmacht" (Fir = men), the pseudo-history/Saga's thus give an image that some stage in the 4-6th century that the political order of what is now Connacht went through a period of turmoil with an overthrowal of the the old order.

The three Connachta (and the Uí Máine) would thus in sense have been like the Norman Burkes 800 years later. They would have overthrown the elite and taken over but most of the people on the ground would still have been "locals". The Burkes are a good comparison because they became so gaelicised that they took over the traditional inauguration sites in both their key "dynasties". In case of the Clanricarde they actually used the old "Uí Fhiachrach Aidhne" inaguration site in South-Galway.

Of course the Uí Fhiachrach Aidhne survived as separate lordship but on much reduced holdings.

Anyways back to DF21 my feeling is that DF21 in Connacht is old, I do find the correlation between the genealogies concept of both the Soghain and Loighis as been Cruithne and the presence of DF21 in both areas as interesting. Of course that part of Galway is famous also for La Tene related finds such as the Turoe stone as well as the Hillfort site discovered during the construction of the M6 Motorway (Freeway). Just over the border in Roscommon is also found the Castlestrange stone.

These groupings with supposed Cruithne origin always seem to be on or near interface areas between Provinces/Kingdoms. Makes me think that they were military "mercenaries" like what the Roman's called Foederati (Goths and such providing military service on the Borders of Empire)

It's interesting to see we have two new L1336+ results this morning in Ireland project. I've created a seperate subgroup under DF21 for them, as we now have 4 in total.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Rory Cain
08-11-2013, 06:06 AM
Rory,

Anyways back to DF21 my feeling is that DF21 in Connacht is old, I do find the correlation between the genealogies concept of both the Soghain and Loighis as been Cruithne and the presence of DF21 in both areas as interesting. Of course that part of Galway is famous also for La Tene related finds such as the Turoe stone as well as the Hillfort site discovered during the construction of the M6 Motorway (Freeway). Just over the border in Roscommon is also found the Castlestrange stone.

These groupings with supposed Cruithne origin always seem to be on or near interface areas between Provinces/Kingdoms. Makes me think that they were military "mercenaries" like what the Roman's called Foederati (Goths and such providing military service on the Borders of Empire)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Paul, I'm mostly in agreement, except for being Cruithne. There are so many groups, all with different DNA types, all claiming to be the Picts, who it is believed were simply Cruithne bearing a Roman name, that I am not about to upset them by adding my sept to the list of claimants. Actually I don't see that Cruithne really works for DF21. We certainly have a Scots contingent in CTS3655, but the Irish DF21 appear to be in the wrong place with strongholds in Leinster and survival of a tradition that the Airghialla were also Ciannachta from Bri Eile on the western border of Leinster. I'd probably cede the Pictish/ Cruithne claim to others better placed like L1335 i Scotland or the other claim for east Ulster, not that I'm totally convinced by those claims either.

Dubhthach
08-11-2013, 01:39 PM
Rory,

Well I'm not really thinking about the Picts in general. I'm thinking about the fact that we know that we see La Tene influence items coming into Ireland from Northern Britain in period after 200BC. My feeling is that "Cruithne" in sense originally just meant "ye man from the Big island over there". It wasn't specific to any tribe or anything let alone the construct of the Picts that comes down from Roman times and later.

This ties in with concept of "Alba" originally been the named for the entire island of Britain and not just Scotland.

Thus in my hypothesis (which is all that it is) you had different groupings bearing La Tene material coming into Ireland from 200BC onwards who probably served in the form of military mercanaries generally on the boundaries of provincal kingom.

You have to remember that both Laois and Éile were borderlands. Leinster was a considerably smaller province prior to the arrival of the Normans. What's intersting obviously about South Galway is that it forms general borderland of area where La Tene materials are most common. That and the pseudo-historic idea that the boundary between Leath Cuinn and Leath Mogha ran from Galway Bay to Dublin Bay.

Anyways it's an idea, no doubt of one many. At least we can say is DF21 is very old and very widespread in areas that are or were Celtic speaking.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
08-17-2013, 09:26 PM
Another L1336+ in the Ireland project today:
248536 -- Marrinan


Ó MARANNÁIN, Ó MARNÁIN—I—O Marynayne, O Marrinan, O Marnane, Marrinan, Marinane, Marnane, Marnan, Mornan, (Warren); a corruption of Ó Manannáin, which see; also Ó Murnáin, which see. It is anglicised Warren in the neighbourhood of Kenmare.

Ó MURNÁIN—I—Murnane, Murnain, Murnan, Mornan, (Warren); a corruption of Ó Manannáin, which see. In recent years the anglicised form has been absurdly changed to Warren in the neighbourhood of Kenmare.

Ó MANANNÁIN—I—O Manynane, O Mananan, Marrinan, Murnane, &c.; 'descendant of Manannán' (the name of an ancient Irish sea-god); an old Thomond surname; now found chiefly in East Limerick, Tipperary, Cork, and parts of Leinster, but long corrupted to Ó Marannáin, Ó Marnáin, Ó Murnáin, and Ó Manaráin, which see.

Ó MANARÁIN—I—O Mannerane, Mannering, Manron; a corruption of Ó Manannáin, which see.


-Paul
(DF41+)

Ernest Johnson
08-21-2013, 01:53 AM
Griff,
Glad to hear you are testing. I haven't been able to be here lately during to an aggressive schedule at work. We are bringing jobs back to the USA. How soon will it for your results? Rory and David have been a great help in making things happen with the snps in our group. I hope it will expand our group.
Regards,
Ernest

RonaldG123
08-22-2013, 12:05 AM
I am DF5 CTS3654 + CTS3655- positive for DF21+ DF25+.

RonaldG123
08-24-2013, 01:37 AM
They changed everything at FTDNA Your Haplogroup Tests Taken
R-L21 CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, DF21+, DF25+, DF5+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F212+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L11+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L151+, L16+, L21+, L23+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L51+, L52+, L566+, L585+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L781+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, P310+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000082+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000191+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+, Z248+, Z290+, U106-, Z18-

DRMoore
08-28-2013, 10:25 PM
David Reynolds asked me to advise that FTDNA have already listed L1446, L1448 & L1448 as available to order. Those DF5+ folks who have tested CTS3655-, L1402- & L1403- might be the best candidates. 34503 Gibson in whose sample these new SNPs were found is DF5+, Z248+, CTS3655-, L1402- and L1403-.

122847 David Moore here -- L1402 and L1403 under DF5 were found in my WTY earlier this year. I'm not clear on where L1446, L1447 & L1448 might end up. Could one of them be above L1402? Were the same primers used for my test as for 34503 Gibson's WTY test? Would I be assumed negative for L1446, L1447 & L1448? Is there any benefit in testing one of my Moores for them?
Thanks, David Moore

alan
08-28-2013, 10:45 PM
I understand that P314.3 is pretty old, Bronze Age in date, and has northern continental outliers. However, I am less clear that the isles-only tighter cluster is anything like as old, maybe early Medieval. Does anyone have any up to date calculations on this? I am interested by the possibility that while P314.2 is old overall that this age is largely due to the continentals with outlier STR and that the isles group may be much younger.

Rory Cain
08-29-2013, 08:06 AM
122847 David Moore here -- L1402 and L1403 under DF5 were found in my WTY earlier this year. I'm not clear on where L1446, L1447 & L1448 might end up. Could one of them be above L1402? Were the same primers used for my test as for 34503 Gibson's WTY test? Would I be assumed negative for L1446, L1447 & L1448? Is there any benefit in testing one of my Moores for them?
Thanks, David Moore

David, we only have two test candidates so far, 34503 Gibson with all three of L1446, L1447 & L1448, and N39920 Sharp with L1446+, L1447+ & L1448-. Therefore we can surmise that L1448 is downstream of the first two and unlikely to be of interest to the Moores. The other test pending for 145178 Griffeth, being genetically closer to Gibson than is Sharp, could produce the same result as either Gibson or Sharp.

Yes, the Moores could have L1446 or L1447. The only other tests that might shed light on this are the Fullgenomes.com tests for David Reynolds & myself. These will establish the relationship between these two SNPs and CTS3655 & 658, but not L1402. The only way to establish the relationship of L1446 & L1447 to L1402 is to test a L1402+ candidate for them.

Cheers

Rory

DRMoore
08-29-2013, 05:39 PM
David, we only have two test candidates so far, 34503 Gibson with all three of L1446, L1447 & L1448, and N39920 Sharp with L1446+, L1447+ & L1448-. Therefore we can surmise that L1448 is downstream of the first two and unlikely to be of interest to the Moores. The other test pending for 145178 Griffeth, being genetically closer to Gibson than is Sharp, could produce the same result as either Gibson or Sharp.

Yes, the Moores could have L1446 or L1447. The only other tests that might shed light on this are the Fullgenomes.com tests for David Reynolds & myself. These will establish the relationship between these two SNPs and CTS3655 & 658, but not L1402. The only way to establish the relationship of L1446 & L1447 to L1402 is to test a L1402+ candidate for them.

Cheers

Rory

Rory, thanks for the help. L1446 & L1447 have been ordered for 178605, Daniel Glenn Moore. He is in the Seven Septs of Laois cluster (L1402+ & L1403+) and from the Geno2 he is CTS3655-.

In the way of an update on establishing a connection to Co Laois for the cluster, 212914, Phelan (L1402+ & L1403+) still has kinsmen in the area, but can only confirm his paternal ancestors there to the early 1800's. 114197, Kelly (assumed L1402+ in the R-DF21 + Project) confirms his paternal ancestors back to early 1800's in neighboring Co Kildare and still has kinsmen there. A close match to the Moores, a Smith, has tested of L1402 & L1403. His oldest know ancestor lived in the USA. A kit has been mailed to a Moore living in neighboring Tipperary whose family moved there from Abbeyleix, Co Laois 16 years ago. My fingers are crossed hoping the kit makes it to the lab for testing. And for what it is worth, Dr Tyrone Bowes, www.irishorigenes.com, has established the genetic homeland of the Wiregrass Moores as being just north of Portlaois.

I will consider a full Y genome test for a L1402+ guy after the other DF5 full genome tests come back and the results have been sorted out.

Thanks again, and best regards,
David Moore 122847

Rory Cain
08-31-2013, 04:58 AM
Rory, thanks for the help. L1446 & L1447 have been ordered for 178605, Daniel Glenn Moore. He is in the Seven Septs of Laois cluster (L1402+ & L1403+) and from the Geno2 he is CTS3655-.

In the way of an update on establishing a connection to Co Laois for the cluster, 212914, Phelan (L1402+ & L1403+) still has kinsmen in the area, but can only confirm his paternal ancestors there to the early 1800's. 114197, Kelly (assumed L1402+ in the R-DF21 + Project) confirms his paternal ancestors back to early 1800's in neighboring Co Kildare and still has kinsmen there. A close match to the Moores, a Smith, has tested of L1402 & L1403. His oldest know ancestor lived in the USA. A kit has been mailed to a Moore living in neighboring Tipperary whose family moved there from Abbeyleix, Co Laois 16 years ago. My fingers are crossed hoping the kit makes it to the lab for testing. And for what it is worth, Dr Tyrone Bowes, www.irishorigenes.com, has established the genetic homeland of the Wiregrass Moores as being just north of Portlaois.

I will consider a full Y genome test for a L1402+ guy after the other DF5 full genome tests come back and the results have been sorted out.

Thanks again, and best regards,
David Moore 122847

David, thanks for the update. I actually recruited most of the guys you mentioned into the R-DF21 project. I have Marcia Case (a keen researcher who controls one of the Kelly kits) working on recruiting Smith. The surnames represent the Seven Septs of Laois pretty closely, not a bad result given the potential for non-paternity events that most DNA projects encounter. The geographical pattern emerging also clusters around Co Laois even if there has clearly been two-way movement across the county border, e.g. the surname Phelan moving in from neighbouring Co Waterford, & the surname Kelly moving out to neighbouring Kildare & Tipperary.

The latest news, from Justin today, is that Fullgenomes expect all outstanding Batches to be completed by 30 September. Results from David Reynolds will establish the relationship of CTS3655 & L627, my result will establish the relationship of L658, leaving the relationship of L1403/L1403 and L1446/L1447 still to be determined in full. A fullgenomes test from one of the L1402+ guys would fix that, of course. Thank you for at least considering the possibility. That would leave just L1446/L1447 to be determined in full.

rivergirl
09-01-2013, 03:01 AM
Rory I dont know if this helps, 12th century Ossory has;
Ua Faeláin (O'Phelan, Whelan) of Magh Lacha (Clarmallagh)
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ossory.htm
According to the Genealogies they desend from Aengus Osrithe and are related to the Fitzpatricks. They are not related to the Deisi Whelan/Phelans of Co Waterford/Tipperary.
212914 has so many matches with Lawlors, I wonder if this has been from a NPE at some time.
We are still waiting DF21 results for N54562 Whalen from Co Tipperary.

Rory Cain
09-02-2013, 12:07 AM
Rory I dont know if this helps, 12th century Ossory has;
Ua Faeláin (O'Phelan, Whelan) of Magh Lacha (Clarmallagh)
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ossory.htm
According to the Genealogies they desend from Aengus Osrithe and are related to the Fitzpatricks. They are not related to the Deisi Whelan/Phelans of Co Waterford/Tipperary.
212914 has so many matches with Lawlors, I wonder if this has been from a NPE at some time.
We are still waiting DF21 results for N54562 Whalen from Co Tipperary.

That is indeed helpful. While I expect that you are right about 212914 being otherwise a Lawlor but for an NPE, it is worth remembering the Ossory/Osraige included an Ua Faelain sept. Angus Osrithe, eponymous ancestor of the Osraige, descended from the same stock as the Ui Bairrche, the names the Brigantes went by in Ireland. The Ui Bairrche left their name on several places as they were pushed north by the Laigin, including the Barony of Bargy, Co Wexford, the River Barrow which they most likely followed north, and the Barony of Slievemargy in Co Leix where we find one of the major DF5 hotspots.

The Ossory territory and Osraige tribe appear to have not received much SNP testing if the Fitzpatrick DNA project is an indication. It changed hands between Leinster and Munster several times, as well as regaining it's independence under it's own kings several times. Therefore we might expect a mix of DNA types. Another DF21 and/or DF5 hotspot in Ossory would tend to provide some confirmation of the traditional relationship between the Osraige and the Ui Bairrche, albeit long since buried under fabricated pedigrees that join the L159.2 Laigin dynasty to these earlier tribes.

rivergirl
09-02-2013, 10:30 AM
That is interesting. I didnt realise Aengus was from the same stock as the Brigantes.
The "'Ossory" Fitzpatricks, some Brennan, Brodericks, Whalens and Daltons all share a unique haplotype.
390=21, though a few have 22.
459a/b=9/9
YCA II a/b=22/23
557=15
572=10

I dont know if the Fitzpatricks have done much SNP testing, they were originally testing at Relative Genetics and some at DNA Heritage. FTDNA say they have 230 members, who do not all appear on the worldfamilies website.
http://fitzsoc.com/DNA%20Study/DNA%20study%20-%20July%202007.htm

http://www.genealogy.com/genealogy/users/f/i/t/Colleen-Fitzpatrick-CA/index.html


I know Whalen 114211 and Dalton 10880, have SNP tested, so far they are;
L21+, DF13+, L144-, L159.2-, L193-, L226-, L96-, M153-, M222-, M37-, M65-, P314.2-, P66-, SRY2627-, U152-
Z255-

Griff
09-03-2013, 11:26 PM
Griff,
Glad to hear you are testing. I haven't been able to be here lately during to an aggressive schedule at work. We are bringing jobs back to the USA. How soon will it for your results? Rory and David have been a great help in making things happen with the snps in our group. I hope it will expand our group.
Regards,
Ernest

Any day now! :-)

09-04-2013, 11:00 AM
Hello folks. For those interested, I've started a new Project on FTDNA for descendants of early residents of Pennsylvania. I'm the only member so far. See link and description below and come join if it applies.
Bill Harris L21+DF21+DF13+

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/CentralPAPioneers/

New project 8/30/2013. A project intended to help descendants of pioneer families and early settlers of North Central Pennsylvania find their roots using DNA results and family tree information. The targeted groups include those of British Isles, German, French, Native American Ancestry, and others living within or traveling through Penn's Woods during the mid-1600's to late 1700's. This project is intended to help members make tree connections using DNA results and family tree information; so, prospective members must have DNA test results and enough family tree information to trace their ancestry to the targeted groups/area. GEDGOM uploads to FTDNA preferred. Please include enough information in your join request to determine your qualification as a descendant of colonial or pre-colonial Pennsylvania. This is a Dual (Y-DNA & mtDNA) Geographical Project.

Rory Cain
09-05-2013, 02:21 AM
They changed everything at FTDNA Your Haplogroup Tests Taken
DF21+, DF25+, DF5+, Z248+ CTS3655-

Ron, I have cut the list down, but that was simply your Geno2.0 results being posted. Downstream of DF13, I believe you already had DF21 & DF25. You gained two further downstream SNPs in DF5 & Z248, which are to each other on the ISOGG tree. The other SNPs tested are upstream and can be largely disregarded.

Geno2.0 does not test for newer SNPs further downstream of DF5/Z248 such as L1402, L1403, L1446 or L1447, although you did get tested for CTS3655 (negative). The scope of L1402 & L1403 has been partly determined and you would not appear a close match to those who have tested positive thus far. However L1402 & L1403 testing has only been partial so they cannot be ruled out either as possibles for you. Your genotype appears closer to the two folks who have tested L1446 & L1447, but with only two results thus far (both positive) it is early days yet for L1446 & 1447. Two further tests are on order through FTDNA, and it is hoped that Fullgenomes testing for David Reynolds & myself will include L1446 & L1447.

RonaldG123
09-07-2013, 04:58 PM
DF5 There is a Rare SNP utility many show up that would be what I consider consistent with my ancestry but two are County Kildare and Lancashire England and they show up more than once. They are from places where you would find Menapii/Firbolgs and Ui Bairrche.

Rory Cain
09-08-2013, 03:38 AM
DF5 There is a Rare SNP utility many show up that would be what I consider consistent with my ancestry but two are County Kildare and Lancashire England and they show up more than once. They are from places where you would find Menapii/Firbolgs and Ui Bairrche.

Yes, the Brigantes were spread over much of the territory between Wales and Scotland, with one of their constituent tribes occupying what is now Lancashire. The Ui Bairrche,as the Brigantes were known in Ireland, gave their name to the River Barrow which they followed from their landing place in Co Wexford inland to Co Laois & Co Kildare. Eoghan, King of Munster, was fostered by the Ui Bairrche king of Dun Ailline, Co Kildare.

The Menapi were immediate neighbours of the Ui Bairrche. They claimed, or the Laigin genealogists invented for them, a descent from Daire Barrach of the Ui Bairrche. The familial relationship may not be factually correct but evidently the relationship between the two tribes was close. Pressure on both from the rival Laigin/ Ui Cinnsealach dynasty to their south would have made it so. This also facilitated the dispersal of the Ui Bairrche and Menapi that we are only now unravelling.

RonaldG123
09-08-2013, 04:35 PM
This is what is says in the Annals about Gillespies is the Laiginian part false?
Monaig - The Journal of the Ulster Place-name Society places the Monaigh Uladh in the region of Downpatrick, which is located in the barony of Lecale (Leth Cathail). The Book of Lecan notes the Monaich Ulad of Rusat, and the Monaigh of Lough Erne. O'Curry in his Manuscript Materials mentions Monaigh Arad, being called from one of the three grandsons of Capha, in county Down.
Reeves' Antiquities of Down, Connor and Dromore places the Cenél Maelche, a sept of the Ulidians of Dal-Araidians or Dal Fiatach, near Moira (Mag Rath), county Down, or in Antrim, alias Monach. The Annals of the Four Mastersnotes Cearran, son of Colman, chief of Cenél Mailche, was slain, in alliance with the Dal-Araidhe in the year 912, at Carn-Ereann near the Ravel Water in Ulster. The Book of Ui Maine places the Cenél Mailche in Monach.
The annals make note of Mac Giolla Epscoip (e.g. Mac Gillespie) as a chief of Clann Aeilabhra, rector of Monach-an-Dúin, legislator of Cath Monaigh. O'Donovan places the Clann Ailebra in county Down (Four Masters). MacLysaght (More Irish Families) places these Mac Giolla Epscoips, chiefs of Aeilabhra in the barony of Iveagh, county Down; later becoming erenaghs of Kilraine in couny Donegal.
The Book of Lecan mentions the place-name Magh Monaigh, the four "prímthuatha na Bredcha" in Magh Monaigh in Ulster being the Cenél Dogfa, Clann Corcráin, Ui Thacain, and Artraidi. It goes on to note the Cenél Cridain in Magh Monaigh, in Ulster.

As tradition has it the the ancient Manaigh or Monaigh occupied the area near Lough Erne, giving their name to the modern county of Fermanagh. The Journal of the Ulster Place-name Societyalso noted their presence in county Down. The Monaig are often associated with the Manapioi (Menapii), a maritime Belgic tribe of Northern Gaul who are noted on Ptolemy's 2nd century map of Ireland in southeast Ireland. They spread northwards as the Fir Manach, or Monaig in Irish. Early Irish genealogists claim they migrated from south Leinster, their descent from the ancient Laiginian ancestor-god, Catháer Máir.

An early Manach genealogy (among the Uladh pedigrees): (Rawlinson)
Ragnall m. Cernaich m. Gillae Brigte m. Coscraich m. Cenndubáin m. Duiligén m. Galáin m. Cainnecháin m. Máel Tochaid m. Gilluráin m. Inglaind m. Comgaill m. Corccáin m. Manaich m. Ailella (Móir) m. Féicc m. Dáire Barraich m. Catháer Máir. I thought that U152 would be positive for me but I am DF5. Kilkenny Clan O'Nolan DYS Markers 385=11-17 My Markers DYS385=11-14.

RonaldG123
09-10-2013, 12:39 AM
Thought this would be something to see B) http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/page12.html

Rory Cain
09-13-2013, 09:44 AM
This is what is says in the Annals about Gillespies is the Laiginian part false?
Monaig - The Monaig are often associated with the Manapioi (Menapii), a maritime Belgic tribe of Northern Gaul who are noted on Ptolemy's 2nd century map of Ireland in southeast Ireland. They spread northwards as the Fir Manach, or Monaig in Irish. Early Irish genealogists claim they migrated from south Leinster, their descent from the ancient Laiginian ancestor-god, Catháer Máir.

An early Manach genealogy (among the Uladh pedigrees): (Rawlinson)
Ragnall m. Cernaich m. Gillae Brigte m. Coscraich m. Cenndubáin m. Duiligén m. Galáin m. Cainnecháin m. Máel Tochaid m. Gilluráin m. Inglaind m. Comgaill m. Corccáin m. Manaich m. Ailella (Móir) m. Féicc m. Dáire Barraich m. Catháer Máir. I thought that U152 would be positive for me but I am DF5. Kilkenny Clan O'Nolan DYS Markers 385=11-17 My Markers DYS385=11-14.

Ron, I won't pretend to be expert here, so I suggest you get hold of Norman Mongan's "Menapia Quest" (Dublin 1995), Fr Tom O'Connor's Hand of History (2005, revised 2007) & T.F O'Rahilly's Early irish History & Mythology" (Dublin 1946).

Then, educated and forewarned about the widespread fabrication of Irish genealogies, press on if you dare. The Laigin genealogy makes the ancestors of McMurrough (L159.2) and O Dunlaing aka Dowling, Doolan (DF5) to be brothers both descended from Enna Cionselach. Enna's uncle Criomthain Ain, son of Cathaoir Mor, was ancestor of O'Devoy (also DF5). Almost every dynasty of Leinster was made to descend from the same family tree. The DF5 branches outnumber the L159.2 ruling dynasty. Despite its fabricated nature, this pedigree is all we have for the DF5+ clans of Leinster, and their offshoots who gained swordland on the disputed frontiers of Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster.

Making Manach the supposedly eponymous ancestor of the Menapi descend from Eochu Guinech, 5th C king of the Ui Bairrche is far too late for two Belgic tribes that fled Gallia Belgica and were perhaps still settling in Leinster about the time of Caesar. But it may accurately reflect the fact that the Menapi and the Brigantes (as the Continental & British ancestors of the Ui Bairrche were known) were close neighbours in Belgica, Britain & later Leinster. They may well have been closely related as this fabricated genealogy indicates, but at a much earlier time. Conversely the Osraige are made to join this pedigree at a fare earlier point in time, at Breasal Bairrech, son of Labraidh Loingseach, King of Leinster ca 300 BC. Breasal's epithet Bairrech identifies him with the Ui Bairrche. Is this admittedly fabricated pedigree an Ui Cinnsealch pedigree with the original tribes who couldn't be totally overcome added on, or really an Ui Bairrche, Osraige and Menapi pedigree with the later arrivals, the Ui Cinnsealch, added on? That's anybody's guess.

Z253 appears to have an affinity with the locations where Norman Mongan places the Menapi and descendants, the Firmanagh and Colla Meann in south Ulster. DF21 appears to fit the movements of the Ui Bairrche aka Brigantes. The Ui Bairrche would appear to be more relevant to you, being DF5+. Of course their is clear evidence of both groups moving together such as the DF21 Airghialla in Co Monaghan and their Z253 Firmanagh neighbours in Co Fermanagh. So you could learn from studying both.

TigerMW
09-13-2013, 10:58 AM
L130, almost long forgotten, has made public SNP status under DF21. It looks liked Geno 2 helped save the day.


MikeW's variety 21-1412 is R-L130, and is a new clade under R-DF21. It already meets ISOGG requirements, and I will proceed with asking Alice to add to the ISOGG Hg R once she returns from her trip.

Current variety members:
84267 Campbell
256210 Corcoran
268412 Duffy
103939 Duffy
208214 Don Ward

Kits 208214 and 268412 have both test DF21+ L130+ via Geno 2.0. Although it was never explicitly stated, belief is that the 84267 Campbell kit was where Thomas found L130 during routine SNP testing, around June 2009.

If anyone is familiar with any of these folks, would be great to get Campbell and the Duffys in the DF21 project. (Ward and Cororcoran are already members.) Would also like to see Corcoran test L130 if possible.

Would also like to get the Geno 2.0 raw results from Duffy, who is in the Irish Heritage project. (Instructions at: http://daver.info/geno/ )

Note that Robert Casey did a great analysis of this quite some time ago:
http://www.rcasey.net/.../R_L21_Testing_Candidates_L130.html http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L21-Project/conversations/topics/17331

Dubhthach
09-13-2013, 02:57 PM
Rory, which genealogy are you looking at that has Dowling/Doolan as connected to Énnae Cennsalach? From some googling I see the following mentioning Hart genealogies:


Dubhlaodh ("dubh:" Irish, black; "laodh," a calf): his son; a quo O'Dublaoidh (by some written O'Dunlaing, and anglicised Dowling).

I have my doubts about this. The two root names are completely different for one. Hart also has conflated a number of surnames and genealogies, so he's a bit of a suspect source at times.

Secondly if you look at Woulfe you see:



Ó DÚNLAING, Ó DUNLAING—I—O Dowling, O Doolin, Dowling, Dowlin, Dooling, Doolin, Doolen, Doolan, &c.; 'descendant of Dunlang' (an ancient personal name, also written Dúnlang; the name (1) of a numerous family in Leinster, who were at one time lords of Leix; and (2) of a family of Corca Laoighdhe, in South-west Cork, still numerous in Cork and Kerry. This surname is pronounced Ó Dúllaing, and its anglicised forms can hardly be distinguished from those of Ó Dubhlainn, which see.




Ó DUBHLAOICH—I—O Dowlee, O Dowley, O Dooly, Dowley, Dooley, Dooly; 'descendant of Dubhlaoch' (black hero). There are three distinct families of this name, viz.: (1) Ó Dubhlaoich of Feara Tulach who are of the race of Feidlimidh, son of Enna Ceinnsealach, and before the Anglo-Norman invasion were lords of Feara Tulach, now the barony of Fertullagh, in the south-east of Co. Westmeath. They were dispossessed soon after the invasion and their lands given to the Tyrrells.


What's interesting about the Ó Dubhlaoich of Feara Tulach is they are mentioned in Annals of Four masters where the head of family had killed Conchobar Ua Conchobair (son of the High King) as he didn't recognised him as King of Meath (as imposed by his father). This is in 1144.

From what I've read the O'Dowlings of Laois were of the Loígis (Loígis -> Laoighis -> Laois) whose genealogies place them as coming from Ulster and claim descent from Conall Cearnach.

Griff
09-13-2013, 05:50 PM
Any day now! :-)

Results are in!
L1446+
L1447+
L1448-

-Griff

RonaldG123
09-13-2013, 06:28 PM
Rory Cain Thank You for this information all of it its quite helpful and I am glad to be in your group.

Rory Cain
09-14-2013, 02:30 AM
Rory, which genealogy are you looking at
.

Good question. It raises a valid point about those septs that have multiple genealogies. I am reminded of the German tourist who took an irish Station Master to task over his two clocks, at different ends of the platform, having different times. To which the irish Station master replied, "Sure, and why would I be wanting two clocks if they both told the same time?"

I was looking at Rawlinson. The website www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irikik/ihm/leinst2.htm will do, although Rawlinson can be found in numerous sites. As you point out, O'Hart's genealogies can differ from those of Rawlinson.

I don't really expect that anyone can unravel this mix of L159.2 & DF21 (and I daresay other DNA types as well) all connected by the one pedigree. judging from DNA results, other sections of the DF21 tribal grouping are tacked onto the Munster genealogies, with the Tradraighe and the Eli included as Saertuatha Mumann by the Book of Ballymote. The Tradraighe and the Eli, if we have tracked their tribal movements, are looking like good contenders for DF21 status, so likely had earlier origins in Leinster. In both Leinster and Munster it appears that the newcomers, unable to dislodge some sections of DF21, simply incorporated them into their genealogy.

If you can unravel anything further from the genealogies I look forward to hearing it.
Cheers

Rory Cain
09-14-2013, 02:39 AM
L130, almost long forgotten, has made public SNP status under DF21. It looks liked Geno 2 helped save the day.

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L21-Project/conversations/topics/17331

Glad someone saved the day. The L130 Campbells certainly didn't. When DF21 was discovered I contacted L641,L642 Simmonds and the L130 Campbell group as their results were "within the parish" as possible DF21s. Simmonds' sharp mind immediately grasped that further knowledge would be gained from establishing the relationship of these SNPs. His two SNPs have been added to the DF21 phylogenetic tree for years now. From the L130 Campbells, not a reply, not even a dim glimpse of any intellectual enlightenment. The Campbell DNA project administrator had no more luck than I had in drawing even a "Duh!" response form the 130 Campbells. Thankfully L130 covers other surnames and those other surnames have now taken the lead.

Thankfully also, ISOGG didn't hold up placement of DF21 on the official haplotree by waiting for the L130 Campbells, although that could well have been an effect.

rms2
09-14-2013, 01:49 PM
I created an L130+ category last night for the R-L21 Plus Project. Kits 208214 (Ward) and 268412 (Duffy) populate it thus far. Hopefully new positive results will come in soon.

RonaldG123
09-23-2013, 06:24 PM
DF25 where is this found in highest concentration or what is it? I have not seen anything about this?

Griff
09-23-2013, 07:00 PM
DF25 where is this found in highest concentration or what is it? I have not seen anything about this?

Throw a dart at the British Isles and a bit of northern Europe, and you might hit your home country!
:P

RonaldG123
09-24-2013, 12:12 AM
Yes the DF21,DF5,DF25 are quite spread out;)

RonaldG123
09-24-2013, 10:57 AM
I finally pieced it together with your posts and my DYS markers.:biggrin1:

MJost
09-25-2013, 06:59 PM
I wished to calculate TMRCAs for some of the oldest DF13 Subclades and the geographic locations for reference and discussion and this will be for DF21. Most of all the first few tier subclades show a larger variance from Ireland. Again as the Modal TRMCA for Z253 was around 1.1k BC so is DF21, branching mainly to Scotland and Ireland respectively.

DF13>DF21 All n=228 9.14 / 2,894.20 = Var/Coal. Ybp
Modal Ybp = 3,162.24

Wales All n=5 10.80 / 3,421.22
Soc n=28 9.10 / 2,881.32
Ire n=112 8.92 / 2,824.20
Eng n=19 8.47 / 2,681.66
Fra,Ger,It,Lux,Neth,Nor n=8 8.36 / 2,648.08


DF21>P314.2* n=8 8.23 / 2,608.48

DF21>P314.2 All n=30 6.35 / 2,012.61
Modal Ybp = 2,534.24
Ire n=20 6.44 / 2,040.85


DF21>Z246>DF25 All n=60 8.12 / 2,572.08
Modal Ybp = 2,872.14
Ulst n=3 10.89 / 3,449.38
Ire n=23 8.94 / 2,831.26
Eng n=7 7.84 / 2,482.52
Sco n=4 4.63 / 1,465.11
Sco n=9 6.52 / 2,064.94
Ire Muns n=7 4.61 / 1,461.07
Ire, Connacht n=7 3.75 / 1,187.92



DF21>Z246>DF25>DF5 All n= 55 8.15 / 2,580.94
Ire n=21 9.17 / 2,904.89
ENG n=6 7.11 / 2,252.66
Uls n=2 7.00 / 2,217.46
Sco n=9 6.52 / 2,064.94
Ire, Conn n=7 4.33 / 1,370.56
Sco, Stra n=3 3.56 / 1,126.33


DF21>Z246 all n=61 8.08 / 2,559.95
Ire n=23 8.94 / 2,831.26
Sco n=9 6.52 / 2,064.94
Eng n=7 7.84 / 2,482.52
Ire, Conn n=7 4.33 / 1,370.56



DF21>Z246>DF25* n=5 5.92 / 1,875.34
DF21>S424 all n=4 4.88 / 1,544.30
DF21>Z246>DF25>DF5 All n=9 4.62 / 1,462.66
DF21>L1336+ (mostly Ireland) n=11 3.27 / 1,036.73
DF21>L720+ (mostly Scot) n=6 2.53 / 800.75
DF21>P314.2>L362+ n=8 2.73 / 866.19
DF21>Z246>DF25>DF5>CTS3655 All n=4 0.75 / 237.58


MJost

RonaldG123
09-30-2013, 04:52 PM
Yes but DF5, DF21,DF25 are they not linked to these things? If not maybe someone should give me an idea of what my results are? I took out the R1b because it did not describe The DF21 but what I left there should.

[[[ Mikewww/Moderator on 01.Oct.2013: I don't know if DF21 is linked to Troy and the sons of Japeth. I'm just saying this looks to be a very broad topic, much broader than DF21. If that is the case, it should be placed elsewhere.. maybe in the "general" population genetics category as something like "Origins of the British" or "Haplogroups of the British" or whatever. We probably should have an "Origins of the Britons" thread somewhere.
Here is where the genetics "General" category is: http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?26-General
Her is where the Y haplogroups "Other" category is: http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?73-Other ]]]

Dubhthach
10-01-2013, 10:49 AM
Folan (151119) has come back as DF21+. He's in Mike's [21-1123-Aran] cluster. Folan is a Galway surname:


Mac FHUALAIN—IV—M'Folaine, Folan; 'son of Faolan' (diminutive of faol, a wolf); a variant of Mac Faoláin, which see; the name of an old family in Co. Galway. The initial f is aspirated in the present spoken language. Compare with the old anglicised form O Folane for Ó Faoláin.
--
Mac FAOLÁIN—IV—M'Phillan, MacPhelan; 'son of Faolán' (diminutive of faol, a wolf); extremely rare.

Griff
10-02-2013, 05:29 PM
I'm getting a bit bored by this thread seemingly going in a different direction from what I created, which was a thread where a focus on "DF21 (L21>DF13>DF21) and Subclades (DF5/S191, P314.2, S190, etc)" could be maintained and where people who discovered their newest terminal markers in the above "lineage" could more easily find a way forward through the thicket of similar topics.

And this thread has become a geographical focus on Ireland, which is fine if you're Irish, but if your genealogy is Welsh, Scot or Northern English, you read almost nothing contributed from or about those places.

For instance, it's fine to know that my terminal marker is R-L1446, but are there so few of us, nobody else is interested (other than Rory and David)? How do we keep this train from stalling into a cul-de-sac of non-interest?

Any suggestions (other than 'sod off') would be most gratefully received.

-Griff

RonaldG123
10-04-2013, 08:56 AM
My ancestors were Anglo Normans who went to Ireland with Welsh Families DF5,DF21,DF25 I am testing for L1446 and L1447 now.

Griff
10-05-2013, 12:57 AM
Excellent! Good luck, and let us know when you get the results. Thank you.

-Griff

David
10-05-2013, 08:44 PM
A CTS3655- result was posted last night for kit 63389 (Beirne). At this point, all of the varieties under R-DF5 are known to be either CTS3655+ or CTS3655-.

While the DF5+ CTS3655- folks are scattered all over the Isles, the DF5+ CTS3655+ varieties appear to be concentrated in Scotland and England.

The DF5+ R-L1402 variety is fairly well defined at this point, with just a couple of varieties not tested.

Tests are outstanding for six of the varieties for DF5+ L1446/L1447 clade, so the exact scope is still unknown, and two of the results are needed before this clade can be added to the ISOGG tree.

Generically, we still do not know the boundaries of DF21 as we are still finding people who are DF21+ who are not a close match to existing DF21+ kits.

Regards,
david

David
10-07-2013, 03:19 AM
Additions to the Little Scots Cluster clade based on early Chromo2 results. Bold SNPs are already on the ISOGG tree, other SNPs are new.

DF21
..S424, S426, S423, S3025, S3026, S3031, S3057, S3058
....S190, S308, S309, S427, S307, S3024, S3027
......S425, S3033 (Wilson, Chambers, and Sloan)


Regards,
david

TigerMW
10-07-2013, 01:11 PM
Additions to the Little Scots Cluster clade based on early Chromo2 results. Bold SNPs are already on the ISOGG tree, other SNPs are new.

DF21
..S424, S426, S423, S3025, S3026, S3031, S3057, S3058
....S190, S308, S309, S427, S307, S3024, S3027
......S425, S3033 (Wilson, Chambers, and Sloan)


Regards,
david
I just added S425 to the graphic tree I maintain. Barring further information, I'm calling S424, S190 and S425 as the "lead with" SNPs for labeling these haplogroups. The others are assumed phylogenetically equivalent.

Williamson
10-07-2013, 01:56 PM
The co-ordinates of the above Little Scottish Cluster SNPs are no longer proprietary. Jim Wilson released the co-ordinates this morning. Now I'm left wondering if FTDNA will choose to make any of them testable a la carte?

Alex

Ernest Johnson
10-08-2013, 07:40 PM
Sorry Griff,
Beside work, I have had a hard time getting into the forum. I do have an interest in learning as much as we can about L1446/47. Gib Gibson is testing L1448 to determine if it is private to the Gibsons. I do like the fact we are narrowing ourselves to a Welsh origin. I look forwar to Rory's results to see how he lines up with us. Wish we could get some Hodnett input. Not sure if this means much, but my earliest known Gibson spoke gaelic. No way of knowing if it was the P or Q dialect. Family tradition also said my maternal Gibson line was once a Mac? name. Different branches of the line mention different names following the "Mac".
Ernest


I'm getting a bit bored by this thread seemingly going in a different direction from what I created, which was a thread where a focus on "DF21 (L21>DF13>DF21) and Subclades (DF5/S191, P314.2, S190, etc)" could be maintained and where people who discovered their newest terminal markers in the above "lineage" could more easily find a way forward through the thicket of similar topics.

And this thread has become a geographical focus on Ireland, which is fine if you're Irish, but if your genealogy is Welsh, Scot or Northern English, you read almost nothing contributed from or about those places.

For instance, it's fine to know that my terminal marker is R-L1446, but are there so few of us, nobody else is interested (other than Rory and David)? How do we keep this train from stalling into a cul-de-sac of non-interest?

Any suggestions (other than 'sod off') would be most gratefully received.

-Griff

Griff
10-08-2013, 08:07 PM
Sorry Griff,
Beside work, I have had a hard time getting into the forum. I do have an interest in learning as much as we can about L1446/47. Gib Gibson is testing L1448 to determine if it is private to the Gibsons. I do like the fact we are narrowing ourselves to a Welsh origin. I look forwar to Rory's results to see how he lines up with us. Wish we could get some Hodnett input. Not sure if this means much, but my earliest known Gibson spoke gaelic. No way of knowing if it was the P or Q dialect. Family tradition also said my maternal Gibson line was once a Mac? name. Different branches of the line mention different names following the "Mac".
Ernest

I know what you mean, having to click through too many places to get here. I just bookmarked this page and avoid having to do that. I don't think it has anything to do with your "Mac" relative, but my father's mother's maiden name was McDonough. All four of my grandparents belonged to families that had been in America for at least 8 or 9 generations, meaning they were all from early Colonist origins (no potato famine Irish). I look forward to hearing from cousins Rory and David soon. It would be great to see our 1446 placed on the ISOGG tree!

-Griff

David
10-08-2013, 10:07 PM
I know what you mean, having to click through too many places to get here. I just bookmarked this page and avoid having to do that. I don't think it has anything to do with your "Mac" relative, but my father's mother's maiden name was McDonough. All four of my grandparents belonged to families that had been in America for at least 8 or 9 generations, meaning they were all from early Colonist origins (no potato famine Irish). I look forward to hearing from cousins Rory and David soon. It would be great to see our 1446 placed on the ISOGG tree!

-Griff

Full Genomes updated my status to indicate they had received my data and were in the process of analyzing it. Hopefully within the next week or two! Also should be getting Chromo2 results in a couple weeks, not expecting any surprises there, but will be interested to see how complete their coverage is for R-DF21.

--david

Ernest Johnson
10-09-2013, 01:28 AM
Griff,
How long before we hear about any other results? I'm guessing my Gibson line came by way of Ireland, but probably had a origin in Wales. My gggg grandfather Nelson Gibson had a brother named Thomas Gibson, but dna testing has proved they were not brothers at all. Neither one match any known Gibson lines. My uncle has close matches with Davenports of Patunkey Point Va. and Hodnetts(5 to 7 off at 67 markers). The Patunkey Davenports do not match any known mainstream Davenports. So my guess is there has been a number of names changes from an origin in Wales. I believe Nelson and Thomas were adopted by a Thomas and Mary Gibson in Va and ended up in NC and SC. Both fought in the Revoluntary War under Gen Francis Marion.
Ernest


I know what you mean, having to click through too many places to get here. I just bookmarked this page and avoid having to do that. I don't think it has anything to do with your "Mac" relative, but my father's mother's maiden name was McDonough. All four of my grandparents belonged to families that had been in America for at least 8 or 9 generations, meaning they were all from early Colonist origins (no potato famine Irish). I look forward to hearing from cousins Rory and David soon. It would be great to see our 1446 placed on the ISOGG tree!

-Griff

Griff
10-09-2013, 09:01 PM
Griff,
How long before we hear about any other results? I'm guessing my Gibson line came by way of Ireland, but probably had a origin in Wales. My gggg grandfather Nelson Gibson had a brother named Thomas Gibson, but dna testing has proved they were not brothers at all. Neither one match any known Gibson lines. My uncle has close matches with Davenports of Patunkey Point Va. and Hodnetts(5 to 7 off at 67 markers). The Patunkey Davenports do not match any known mainstream Davenports. So my guess is there has been a number of names changes from an origin in Wales. I believe Nelson and Thomas were adopted by a Thomas and Mary Gibson in Va and ended up in NC and SC. Both fought in the Revoluntary War under Gen Francis Marion.
Ernest

A couple of my immigrant ancestors did change their names: Griffith to Griffeth and Gaunt to Gauntt. Nobody knows why. The possible reasons are multitude! In the case of the Griffeths, it could not be the #1 cause, skipping out on an indentured servitude, since they (or someone) only changed the spelling after a couple of generations in the New World.

-Griff

Rory Cain
10-12-2013, 10:21 PM
A couple of my immigrant ancestors did change their names: Griffith to Griffeth and Gaunt to Gauntt. Nobody knows why. The possible reasons are multitude! In the case of the Griffeths, it could not be the #1 cause, skipping out on an indentured servitude, since they (or someone) only changed the spelling after a couple of generations in the New World.

-Griff

Lyons just posted negative results for L1446 & L1447. Thus far it's a North Wales thing. Griffith, the original form of your surname, is regarded as the ultimate North Wales surname. Hughes has an origin in Flintshire, North Wales. Jones and Morgan are numerous in South Wales but these particular guys don't know their place of origin within Wales. Owens and Thomas are also Welsh surnames. Davenport and Hodnett are the names of villages in the Welsh Marches, i.e. the part of England that borders Wales, where Welsh labourers would travel for work.

Then we have the O Cathains of Co Galway who share your key off-modal marker values and are the closest relations to this North Wales group. The TMRCA suggests a common ancestor about the time the Roman Legions were packing their kit and the Celtic kingdoms were reasserting themselves with assistance of (or competition from) Irish reinforcements in Cornwall, South Wales, North Wales, Galloway and Scotland. The Welsh kingdom of Gwynedd was Irish at this time, until rivals from Scotland won that particular piece of turf. Present-day nationalities like Irish, Scots & Welsh didn't have the same meaning as nowadays. It wasn't Celtic versus Rangers back then.

I'm very curious about my Fullgenomes results, particularly L1446 & L1447. Outside of North Wales guys, we O Cathains are the closest match and best potential L1446 or L1447 candidates. One way or the other my test will help define the limits of L1446/L1447. Will advise when I receive results. The advertised timetable of 6-8 weeks takes more like 6-8 months. Kits sent to USA get re-sent to Hong Kong on the proverbial "Slow Boat to China". However the company are now saying a few more weeks (read "months').

RonaldG123
10-14-2013, 02:12 PM
Did Cambro Normans and the Welsh mix with the Brigantes in Ireland?

RonaldG123
10-14-2013, 03:59 PM
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/invasion.htm

oneillabu
10-14-2013, 04:11 PM
Did Cambro Normans and the Welsh mix with the Brigantes in Ireland?
Who said that DF21 is actually Brigante in origin, this is just another wild speculative theory and to date most L21 research has been nothing more than that with the exception of the Royal Stuart line which has been confirmed.

Even the so called Niall type is nothing more than speculation and the evidence clearly points to a British origin which I pointed out as far back as two years however I was quickly shouted down by the wandering Ui Neill theorists who have become somewhat quiet of late.

You are better off to wait until some clear pictures begin to emerge from the new crop of SNP's and we can make some informed judgments based solely on the interpretation of the data instead of attaching labels based on the personal preferences of individuals which in some cases are little more than wishful thinking.

Griff
10-14-2013, 05:27 PM
Who said that DF21 is actually Brigante in origin, this is just another wild speculative theory and to date most L21 research has been nothing more than that with the exception of the Royal Stuart line which has been confirmed.

Even the so called Niall type is nothing more than speculation and the evidence clearly points to a British origin which I pointed out as far back as two years however I was quickly shouted down by the wandering Ui Neill theorists who have become somewhat quiet of late.

You are better off to wait until some clear pictures begin to emerge from the new crop of SNP's and we can make some informed judgments based solely on the interpretation of the data instead of attaching labels based on the personal preferences of individuals which in some cases are little more than wishful thinking.

I know that people - especially Americans - would like to stick a pin in a map of Northern England into the hamlet of their ancestors in the hopes of someday going there to reestablish a "homeland." Maybe I'm wrong, but if everybody who ever lived in such a hamlet were to be DNA'd, we'd find what we find today: every place, every hamlet, every village, has at least a handful of different Haplo-identified types, all living side by side. Probably no such hamlet has but one Haplo-type.

We tend to think of borders, too. And in a lot of cases, we are stuck in our thinking on modern borders, which we know changed many times (if borders could be established at all in the past). Perhaps the only true distinction in that blender of population could be (1) Celt or (2) Non-Celt.

So it's way too early to start sticking pins in a map … although I'd love to do that! And go visit. :P

-Griff

RonaldG123
10-14-2013, 05:46 PM
I base my studies on the multitude of evidence from all three 23andme, Geno.20,FTDNA and http://gedmatch.com/. My Family history the names of my matches. And I asked a question and did not make a statement. I think the main problem with these haplogroups is people being honest with themselves because they wan't to be specific things or maybe wan't to forget or not acknowledge certain things. People pay good money to learn there ancestry just to find out what they paid for is still being argued about and know one really knows what it is.

Griff
10-14-2013, 06:01 PM
I base my studies on the multitude of evidence from all three 23andme, Geno.20,FTDNA and http://gedmatch.com/. My Family history the names of my matches. And I asked a question and did not make a statement. I think the main problem with these haplogroups is people being honest with themselves because they wan't to be specific things or maybe wan't to forget or not acknowledge certain things. People pay good money to learn there ancestry just to find out what they paid for is still being argued about and know one really knows what it is.

Dear cousin Ronald, I was not referring to you or anyone in particular, but a general observation that some people are so eager to find the "homeland" they are willing to accept almost anything that supports their wishes.

One of the very first things people should be told - and on responsible websites, they are told - that genetic genealogy is a science in its infancy, and should be considered such. In the 10-15 generations in my family immediately prior to immigration to Massachusetts Colony, we can establish a "record" of ancestors, but in so doing, ignore the probability that within those 10-15 generations, adoptions and NPE's are likely to be found. In order to verify a "clean" genealogy, we would have to dig up all ancestors in that chain and test their DNAs.

Even if that were possible, we would likely end up doing a lot of guessing and conflating. At this point in time, that has to be taken for granted. Cheers!

-Griff

RonaldG123
10-14-2013, 07:11 PM
I believe Rory knows what DF21 is, and placed me with the right people in his project that we would have blended with from Wales.

oneillabu
10-15-2013, 02:50 PM
I believe Rory knows what DF21 is, and placed me with the right people in his project that we would have blended with from Wales.

So what you are saying is that Rory has decided for all DF21 people that their origin is Welsh is to suit his own THEORY, so this includes the Seven Septs of Laois, the O'Carroll's of Ely, Clan Colla with paper ancient pedigrees for a McDonald and McMahon, The O'Donaghue Mor who also has a paper pedigree that predates the Normans plus a host of names such as McCarthy, O'Callaghan, O'Neill etc that stem from the Gaelic Nobility. I have traced my own paper pedigree to a cluster of O'Neill Jacobites who are descended from the O'Neills of Ivowen, a branch of the ancient Ulster O'Neill's so according to yourself and Rory I should have matches to a large number of Welsh matches so lets take a look at the Welsh L720 matches in my database

Clan Chattan name matches
McIntosh
McIntosh
McIntosh
McIntosh
McQuilkin (Rathlin Island)
McPherson
Davidson
Gillis
Gillis
Gillis
Gillis
Gillis
Gillis

McLellan matches (Devotess of St Fillan 6th century Irish Saint)
McLellan of South Uist
McLellan of North Uist
Weir

Lord of the Isles matches
McDonald
McDonald
McCaul

McInnes of Iona
McInnes
McInnes
McInnes
McInnes
McInnes
McInnes

All of the above are listed in the 1467 MS as descended from Fergus Mor Mac Erc

L720 Colonial Cluster probably stemming from a McLellan ancestor in Scotland
Farris
Williams
Singleton

Other possible L720 matches that need testing

Carroll, Ward, Bothwell, Haverty, Morrow

Now if you can show me a Welsh origin for these people I will gladly accept Rory's theory however until then I will stick to the evidence at hand.

Griff
10-15-2013, 03:30 PM
[ deleted ]

RonaldG123
10-15-2013, 04:11 PM
@oneillabu It means they moved to those areas and blended with those people. Gillespies started out in Wales moved to Ireland and ended up in Connacht, I am DF25,DF21,DF5. I don't think DF21 is Welsh but Milesian,Celts in Wales and Normans invaded places with Milesian. Would have to look again to see what chased them all to the other Kingdoms. Brigantes or whatever you want to call them were in Scotland and Lancashire too and so were Celts.

RonaldG123
10-15-2013, 04:35 PM
There were a lot of times that I wanted to be something that I was not, but it was not until I let go and let it tell me the truth that I understood it.

Griff
10-15-2013, 04:52 PM
... I am DF25, DF21, DF5.

Ronald, have you considered testing further? Specifically, L1446, L1447 and L1448 would seem to be logical "next" tests to take. If you can afford it, please do so! Your results would be most helpful to those of us out on the frontier of testing! If you can only afford one or two of those, let David Reynolds or Rory Cain know, and they can advise you what to do next.

-Griff

RonaldG123
10-15-2013, 05:10 PM
I am done with these because I know what the real problem is. Argue amongst each other.

oneillabu
10-15-2013, 05:45 PM
@oneillabu It means they moved to those areas and blended with those people. Gillespies started out in Wales moved to Ireland and ended up in Connacht, I am DF25,DF21,DF5. I don't think DF21 is Welsh but Milesian,Celts in Wales and Normans invaded places with Milesian. Would have to look again to see what chased them all to the other Kingdoms. Brigantes or whatever you want to call them were in Scotland and Lancashire too and so were Celts.


Here is the Milesian Deise pedigree of Rhys ap Rydderch

Tuathal Teachtmar
Felim Rachtmar
Fiacha Suidhe
Cairbre Rigronn
Art Corp mac Mes Cuirb
Eochaid Allmuir (Over-Sea)
Corath mac Eochaid
Aed Brosc
Urb mac Aed
Triphun (Valerian) (mac Aed)
Aircol (Agricola)
Vortipor (Vortiporious)
Cyngar ap Gwrthefyr (Vortipor)
Petr (Pedr) ap Cyngar
Arthur map Petr
Nowy Hen (the Old)
Ceindrych ferch Rhiwallon
Cloten ap Nowy
Caten ap Cloten
Cadwgan Tredylig (ap Caten)
Regin (Rhain) ap Cadwgan
Teuder (Tewdos) ap Regin
Meredydd ap Teuder
Rhein ap Maredydd
Triffyn ap Rhein
Owain ap Meredydd
Hyfaidd ap Bledrig
Llywarch ap Hyfaidd
Rhodri ap Hyfaidd
Hywel Dda (the Good) ap Cadell
Owain Ap HYWEL
Iestyn Ap OWAIN
Rhydderch ap Iestyn
Gruffydd ap Rhydderch and Rhys ap Rydderch

There is a DF25+ person in the DF21 project who claims descent from this line, could all the Welsh DF21 actually be from this ancient line of the Kings of Ireland? Once again the ancient pedigrees match DF21 which is intriguing to say the least however I prefer to wait until we have some concrete evidence from SNP testing before engaging in any speculative claims.

Regarding the Normans, it is plain to see at this stage that they were primarily Celtic in origin, mostly Brythonic Welsh from Cornwall and Brittany however they would also have had a variety of DNA types as they were recruited by William the Conquerer with the promise of land and wealth but for the Welsh and Cornish Celts it would have been all about retribution against the saxons and regaining their ancient homeland.

rossa
10-15-2013, 06:07 PM
@oneillabu It means they moved to those areas and blended with those people. Gillespies started out in Wales moved to Ireland and ended up in Connacht, I am DF25,DF21,DF5. I don't think DF21 is Welsh but Milesian,Celts in Wales and Normans invaded places with Milesian. Would have to look again to see what chased them all to the other Kingdoms. Brigantes or whatever you want to call them were in Scotland and Lancashire too and so were Celts.

What Milesians?

Griff
10-15-2013, 06:23 PM
Griff I have been waiting on L1446 and L1447 now for about eleven days:) by recommendation. Original Email Your results were interesting in that they were not real close to any of the existing subgroups. The closest you came was to the Griffeth/Sharpe/Davenport grouping, and to date, that has been a Welsh/English cluster, so if you do have a distant connection to it, that would broaden the scope of the group. Recently, three new SNPs were found, L1446, L1447, and L1448, and one or more of those may well be definitive for defining the Griffeth/Sharpe/Davenport cluster. We currently have a Griffeth and a Sharpe testing those three, to determine which one(s) are broadly applicable. After that testing is complete in Sept.,

Sorry, are you quoting Rory Cain's posting #173?

RonaldG123
10-15-2013, 06:29 PM
Argue amongst yourselves. That was from the DF21 Administrator.

Griff
10-15-2013, 06:48 PM
Argue? No one is arguing, least of all, me!

RonaldG123
10-15-2013, 07:41 PM
I will let you know when my results come in but I will not be on here for awhile it is like beating a dead horse. http://l21plus.1up.no/DF21

oneillabu
10-15-2013, 07:50 PM
Ronald, have you considered testing further? Specifically, L1446, L1447 and L1448 would seem to be logical "next" tests to take. If you can afford it, please do so! Your results would be most helpful to those of us out on the frontier of testing! If you can only afford one or two of those, let David Reynolds or Rory Cain know, and they can advise you what to do next.

-Griff

The Z246 people should create a chart of GD at 111 markers because quiet a few have tested to that level, this will give us an indication of when the various downstream SNP's were formed and allow a mapping of the surnames to a timeline which may give us a picture of the movement of Z246 and its various branches. The oldest M222 is British in origin and has the greatest distance from the M222 Modal, in order to do this with Z246 you need to create a Z246 Modal for comparison purposes which will not be easy.

RonaldG123
10-15-2013, 09:21 PM
I think that I confused them again, but I know what they are. Probably need to quit researching them for awhile.

oneillabu
10-15-2013, 10:30 PM
The Z246 people should create a chart of GD at 111 markers because quiet a few have tested to that level, this will give us an indication of when the various downstream SNP's were formed and allow a mapping of the surnames to a timeline which may give us a picture of the movement of Z246 and its various branches. The oldest M222 is British in origin and has the greatest distance from the M222 Modal, in order to do this with Z246 you need to create a Z246 Modal for comparison purposes which will not be easy.

The Genetic distance between Arie Kaptein (Z246+ DF25-) and Wilkes (Z246+ DF25+ DF5-) at 111 markers is 38

distance between Arie Kaptein (Z246+ DF25-) and Lyon of Fairfield (Z246+ DF25+ DF5+) is 35

distance between Wilkes (Z246+ DF25+ DF5-) and Lyon of Fairfield (Z246+ DF25+ DF5+) is 33

This gives an average GD of over 35 so if we use the FTDNA figure of 10 mutations for related within the timeframe of surnames (which is around 800 years) then 10 into 35 is 3.5*800=2800 then the age of Z246 is 2800 years

Of course this is a very rough estimate but it means that the age of the DF5 mutation is very old because the diferance in distance from Arie Kaptein to Wilkes DF5- and to Lyon DF5+ is only 2 which means that the DF5 mutation occurred shortly after the DF25 mutation.

Now if we look at the Seven Septs of Laois who are recorded since very early times and also at Amlaib Mór Ua Donnchadha who has a pedigree that pre dates the Normans we see that they are DF5+ along with a cluster of O'Byrne's and a mixture of Scottish, English and Welsh DF5+ then this places the origin of DF5 in the Isles around 2500 years ago. We also see a Donaghue who is DF5- and a person who claims descent from Rhys ap Rydderch who has a given pedigree from the ancient Kings of Ireland then it is entirely feasable that Z246 is a distinct Milesian line together with seperate lines for 314.2, L720 and DF21*.

The genetic distances at 111 markers between L720 and these other lines is over 35 in all cases and as high as 45 in one example plus L720 has the unique DYS 426 value of 12 that in only shared by Arie Kaptein however other Z246 people do not have this value so in Arie Kaptein's case this is a latter mutation. If we look at the Colla group who are DF21* then we see that descent from the ancient Kings of Ireland is a distinct possibility here, in the case of 314.2 we have a large cluster of McCarthy's and other names associated with the Gaelic nobility so this line is consistant with the given Milesian McCarthy pedigree. Then we have the O'Carrolls of Ely who are another example of the Gaelic noblilty with DF21 status plus the Arran Island cluster and other Irish names such as Corcoran.

Many of the names I see in the DF21 project are showing up in my Family Finder as Fourth and Fifth cousins with origins in North and South Tipperary and Limerick which was the last bastion of the Catholic nobility both Gaelic and old English so this is a clear indication that DF21 was a large portion of these dispossed Jacobites.

As it stands DF21 is a very credible candidate for descent from the Kings of Ireland however only time will tell

RonaldG123
10-15-2013, 11:51 PM
DF5 would be Leinster. I guess Rory convinced me the Laigin was fake.

Dubhthach
10-16-2013, 10:04 AM
My certificate actually says Z248 it seems to have Scottish names is this because it is similar to Z246?

Z248 is equivalent to DF5, all DF5+ individuals are also Z248+.

Z246 is upstream of DF5/Z248, as result all DF5+ indivudals are automatically Z246+
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Current ISOGG recognised structure of DF21 is:


• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g DF21/S192
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g1 P314.2/S220.2
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g1a L362
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g2 S280/Z246
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g2* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g2a DF25/S253
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g2a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g2a1 DF5/S191, S281/Z248
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g2a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g2a1a L658
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g2a1b CTS3655
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g2a1b* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g2a1b1 L627
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g2a1c L1402
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g3 L720/S299
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g4 S424, S426 (See Notes)
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g4* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g4a S190, S308, S309, S427
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1g5 L1336



I've bolded the relevant SNP's for you (as you mention you are Z248+)
DF21+ -> Z246+ -> DF25+ -> DF5+/Z248+

It's possible some day that DF5 and Z248 may be seperated, though this would require finding either someone who is DF5+/Z248- or someone who is Z248+/DF5-

Dubhthach
10-16-2013, 10:10 AM
Alex Williamson generated a phlyogenetic tree using 111 STR markers. His TMRCA estimate for DF21 in it is: 2830±401 years. So basically between 1200BC and 400BC as possible age that SNP arose.

Tree can be seen here:
http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/Files/R-L21%20Tree%2020130428.pdf

(Ctrl-F to search for DF21) -- this was generated back in April, obviously lot more 111 results in since. An older (2012) 67STR tree can be found here:
http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/Files/R-L21%20Tree%2020121224.pdf

oneillabu
10-17-2013, 05:33 PM
I have DYS426=12

That was a typo, I meant marker DYS462, sorry about that!!!!!!

oneillabu
10-18-2013, 12:06 AM
No it is DYS246

Check the DF21 project, it shows the marker numbers at the top, just follow DYS462 down and you will see all the values are 11, only L720 and Arie Kaptein have 12

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-df21/default.aspx?section=yresults

On the subject of Arie Kaptein who is Z246+ and DF25- I have done a 111 marker comparison for Genetic Distance to the main groups in the project, here are the results

314.2 cluster, 10 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 38

L720 cluster, 3 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 47

L588+ L1336+ L1337+ cluster, 6 111 markers results checked and the average GD works out at 45

Little Scots Cluster S190+ , 8 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 41

L130+ Cluster, 3 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 39

Clan Colla Cluster, 8 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 47

O'Carroll Ely Cluster,14 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 39

Arran Island Cluster,1 111 markers result checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 41


There is a remarkable consistency here, all groups are 3000 years + in distance from Z246 which is the origin of the DF25/DF5 cluster, this clearly shows a number of lines branching of from a common ancestor over 3000 years ago.

Griff
10-18-2013, 05:11 PM
Check the DF21 project, it shows the marker numbers at the top, just follow DYS462 down and you will see all the values are 11, only L720 and Arie Kaptein have 12

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-df21/default.aspx?section=yresults

On the subject of Arie Kaptein who is Z246+ and DF25- I have done a 111 marker comparison for Genetic Distance to the main groups in the project, here are the results

314.2 cluster, 10 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 38

L720 cluster, 3 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 47

L588+ L1336+ L1337+ cluster, 6 111 markers results checked and the average GD works out at 45

Little Scots Cluster S190+ , 8 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 41

L130+ Cluster, 3 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 39

Clan Colla Cluster, 8 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 47

O'Carroll Ely Cluster,14 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 39

Arran Island Cluster,1 111 markers result checked and the average GD from Arie Kaptein works out at 41


There is a remarkable consistency here, all groups are 3000 years + in distance from Z246 which is the origin of the DF25/DF5 cluster, this clearly shows a number of lines branching of from a common ancestor over 3000 years ago.

Where do you expect L1446 to fit in? Thanks in advance …

-Griff

TigerMW
10-18-2013, 06:59 PM
....
There is a remarkable consistency here, all groups are 3000 years + in distance from Z246 which is the origin of the DF25/DF5 cluster, this clearly shows a number of lines branching of from a common ancestor over 3000 years ago.

Thank you for the analysis. Have you tried to construct an ancestral haplotype for the Z246 Most Recent Common Ancestor? That might be beneficial in that the GD's all of these folks including Kaptein to the ancestral might be an important viewpoint for analysis?

When looking at any two lineages we don't know if they are on the outter branches (most divergent) of Z246 or inner branches (most convergent). In that sense it is balanced to look at GD's to the expected ancestral haplotype. One way to estimate the Z246 ancestral is to just look at the modal of all the folks collected and then of the major/early branches. You can then try to triangulate between early branches' (of Z246) modals to see to construct a best estimate.

oneillabu
10-18-2013, 10:41 PM
Where do you expect L1446 to fit in? Thanks in advance …

-Griff

Well Arie Kaptein is the oldest upstream Z256 person who branched before the DF25 cluster formed so he is only significant to the origin of your group. We really need a lot more DF25 negative people before we can form any theory of continental or Isles origin. The surname Kaptein can be of naval or military origin both of which would be transient professions however maybe it is a translation of an old Dutch name, you cannot make any conclusion based on one result so any speculation is irrelevant.

oneillabu
10-18-2013, 10:44 PM
Thank you for the analysis. Have you tried to construct an ancestral haplotype for the Z246 Most Recent Common Ancestor? That might be beneficial in that the GD's all of these folks including Kaptein to the ancestral might be an important viewpoint for analysis?

When looking at any two lineages we don't know if they are on the outter branches (most divergent) of Z246 or inner branches (most convergent). In that sense it is balanced to look at GD's to the expected ancestral haplotype. One way to estimate the Z246 ancestral is to just look at the modal of all the folks collected and then of the major/early branches. You can then try to triangulate between early branches' (of Z246) modals to see to construct a best estimate.

What you say makes perfect sense and would be a very worthwhile excercise however to date we only have the one DF25- result and if more df25- results start coming in with completely different numbers to Kaptein then this would negate all the work done so it is better to hold off for more results. If the df25+ people work on creating a modal for each downstream SNP based on as large a group as possible and worked out from these then that would be the way to go for now however we need widespread testing to 111 markers to make this happen.

Here are the results for myself using the same control group used for the Kaptein analysis

Arie Kaptein, 1 111 marker Z256+ result checked and GD from L720 O'Neill works out at 42

314.2 cluster, 10 111 markers results checked and the average GD from L720 O'Neill works out at 36

L588+ L1336+ L1337+ cluster, 6 111 markers results checked average GD from L720 O'Neill works out at 37

Little Scots Cluster S190+ , 8 111 markers results checked and the average GD from L720 O'Neill works out at 40

L130+ Cluster, 3 111 markers results checked and the average GD from L720 O'Neill works out at 37

Clan Colla Cluster, 8 111 markers results checked and the average GD from L720 O'Neill works out at 44

O'Carroll Ely Cluster,14 111 markers results checked and the average GD from L720 O'Neill works out at 41

Arran Island Cluster,1 111 markers result checked and the average GD from L720 O'Neill works out at 39

Once again there are no recent ancestors suggesting a separate line for L720 from 3000 years ago

It is worth noting that there are two distinct lines of L720 and the average GD from L720 O'Neill to the Scottish L720 is 21 however that is only based on two 111 results and much more testing to 111 is needed for further analysis. All of the Scottish L720 has a DYS444 value of 13 whereas O’Neill has value of 12 which suggest two separate ancestors from around 400 AD which is consistent with the Dalriada Fergus Mac Erc pedigree.

David
10-19-2013, 12:37 AM
I got my results from Full Genomes; SNP calls were consistent with my previous tests. For non-INDels, 292 "private" SNPs were found, of which 40 were high quality (95+% chance of being valid calls), and were named FG575 to FG614. 31 "private" INDels were found, of which one was high quality (ChrY:23127168, T->TA).

No SNPs were found that might be equivalent to DF21 or CTS3655. Three high quality mutations were found that are present in my results, as well as the results of public datasets HG00116, HG00242, and PGP104. These three SNPs are located somewhere between CTS3655 and Z246 and may well be equivalent to existing SNPs.
5185401 G->A
9129841 T->G
8381834 C->G

I am not shown as derived for either L1446 or L1447, but until I get my BAM file, I will not know for certain that they are ancestral (vs no-calls).

Next big step will be when Rory gets his results and we are able to compare which we might have in common.

Regards,
david


"Private" high quality SNPs


SNP
hg19
anc
der


FG575
2965010
C
G


FG576
3025790
C
T


FG577
3775282
G
T


FG578
4124386
T
G


FG579
6328811
A
C


FG580
7059475
C
T


FG581
7373407
C
G


FG582
8039775
T
C


FG583
8067756
C
G


FG584
8341127
A
T


FG585
8394820
T
C


FG586
9101362
G
A


FG587
13801643
C
T


FG588
13941880
A
G


FG589
14011877
G
T


FG590
14115486
A
G


FG591
14202036
C
T


FG592
14708498
C
T


FG593
14961679
T
C


FG594
15051218
C
T


FG595
15750967
T
A


FG596
16357166
G
A


FG597
16469744
T
C


FG598
16609044
C
A


FG599
17622242
G
A


FG600
17942236
G
C


FG601
18408759
A
G


FG602
19108196
C
T


FG603
21456130
C
T


FG604
21470722
G
T


FG605
21762362
C
G


FG606
22471533
C
A


FG607
22771173
T
C


FG608
22834676
T
A


FG609
23342920
G
A


FG610
23458488
G
T


FG611
24932695
C
T


FG612
26203308
C
T


FG613
27647624
G
C


FG614
28579952
A
T

oneillabu
10-19-2013, 09:27 PM
Thank you for the analysis. Have you tried to construct an ancestral haplotype for the Z246 Most Recent Common Ancestor? That might be beneficial in that the GD's all of these folks including Kaptein to the ancestral might be an important viewpoint for analysis?

When looking at any two lineages we don't know if they are on the outter branches (most divergent) of Z246 or inner branches (most convergent). In that sense it is balanced to look at GD's to the expected ancestral haplotype. One way to estimate the Z246 ancestral is to just look at the modal of all the folks collected and then of the major/early branches. You can then try to triangulate between early branches' (of Z246) modals to see to construct a best estimate.

I created a modal for the Clan Colla group from a large number of results and compared them with the group


314.2 cluster, 10 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Clan Colla Modal works out at 39

L720 cluster, 3 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Clan Colla Modal works out at 45

L588+ L1336+ L1337+ cluster, 6 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Clan Colla Modal works out at 40

Little Scots Cluster S190+ , 8 111 markers results checked and average GD from Clan Colla Modal works out at 44

L130+ Cluster, 3 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Clan Colla Modal works out at 41

Arie Kaptein Z256+ DF25-, 1 111 markers result checked and the average GD from Clan Colla Modal works out at 42

O'Carroll Ely Cluster,14 111 markers results checked and the average GD from Clan Colla Modal works out at 36

Folan Arran Islands ,1 111 markers result checked and the average GD from Clan Colla Modal works out at 45


I think based on these results it is safe to say that the Clan Colla cluster stem from a single line from over 3000 years ago however there may be some
evidence that the O’Carroll Ely group split from this line in a lesser timeframe with one Carroll result with a GD as low as 30.


The results with 3 or less cannot only be taken as a guide however the trend is clear.

Rory Cain
10-21-2013, 04:33 AM
I got my results from Full Genomes; SNP calls were consistent with my previous tests. For non-INDels, 292 "private" SNPs were found, of which 40 were high quality (95+% chance of being valid calls), and were named FG575 to FG614. 31 "private" INDels were found, of which one was high quality (ChrY:23127168, T->TA).

No SNPs were found that might be equivalent to DF21 or CTS3655. Three high quality mutations were found that are present in my results, as well as the results of public datasets HG00116, HG00242, and PGP104. These three SNPs are located somewhere between CTS3655 and Z246 and may well be equivalent to existing SNPs.
5185401 G->A
9129841 T->G
8381834 C->G

I am not shown as derived for either L1446 or L1447, but until I get my BAM file, I will not know for certain that they are ancestral (vs no-calls).

Next big step will be when Rory gets his results and we are able to compare which we might have in common.

Regards,
david



David, thanks for that update. The first DF21 through Fullgenomes! The next step will actually be Alex Williamson's results. Mine will be later. Although Batch 4 like you and Alex, my Fullgenomes "tachometer" is stuck half-way, still in the orange band whereas you & Alex have powered on into the red band. As Alex is DF21+ and DF5-, I will share a greater number of your 39 new SNPs. About half, I expect, based on our genetic distance and the SNP mutation rates that Fullgenomes are finding.

Rory

Griff
10-21-2013, 04:46 AM
Exciting times! Patience is still a virtue.

-Griff

Rory Cain
10-22-2013, 09:51 PM
Exciting times! Patience is still a virtue.

-Griff

Griff, you ain't whistling Dixie! I believe David waited 6 months for a test advertised as taking as little as 6 weeks.

Williamson
10-22-2013, 11:21 PM
I received my FullGenomes results this afternoon, and I've just had a chance to start looking at them. It's quite a bit of data.

Similar to David Reynolds, FullGenomes is reporting 292 "private" non-INDEL SNPs. These 292 SNPs come in 4 different levels of quality from 0 to 3 stars (*), with *** being the least reliable. The breakdown of my 292 SNPs is as follows:



Quality
Likely Genuine?
Count


no *s
over 99%
10


*
over 95%
13


**
about 40%
55


***
about 10%
214



FullGenomes considers those with 0* or 1* as high quality, and reports that they have found 23 high quality private SNPs in my Y-DNA. These new SNPs were named FG1549 to FG1571. (I foresee a lot of FG SNPs in the future.)

If I understand my results correctly, there is a gentleman, NA12043 tested in the past, who looks to have a number of the Little Scottish Cluster SNPs as I have. I think these shared SNPs reduce the number of novel SNPs from my DNA. So, where David had about 40 new high quality SNPs, I have only 23.

In terms of INDELs, they found 32 private INDELs of which 2 were high quality.

The high quality private SNPs are the following:


SNPhg19ancder
FG15493779037AC
FG15503899172GT
FG15514511965AG
FG15524687827AG
FG15536067820AT
FG15547952608TC
FG15557992480CT
FG15568790228AG
FG15578980644TA
FG15589085250GT
FG15599114725GT
FG156013128633AC
FG156113979797TC
FG156215117619GT
FG156315452508GA
FG156417112718TA
FG156517546935CG
FG156618017942GA
FG156721475911GA
FG156821617233AC
FG156923275266CG
FG157026722140AC
FG157128675156TC


I recognize some of my shared and private SNPs as the ScotlandsDNA SNPs, but I still have to figure that out.

Regards,
Alex
kit 196041
FG P9UH4

Ernest Johnson
10-23-2013, 10:27 AM
Any more L1446 results? Griff do you know if any in our group has ordered the Chromo 2 test from BritainDNA.? I did for my Johnson surname. Waiting for my results before deciding whether to order the test for my uncle.
Ernest



Exciting times! Patience is still a virtue.

-Griff

Griff
10-23-2013, 03:57 PM
Any more L1446 results? Griff do you know if any in our group has ordered the Chromo 2 test from BritainDNA.? I did for my Johnson surname. Waiting for my results before deciding whether to order the test for my uncle.
Ernest

Ernest, I rely entirely on David Reynolds and Rory Cain for information. I am not qualified to comment otherwise! Best wishes,
-Griff

Rory Cain
10-23-2013, 10:00 PM
Any more L1446 results?

One of the Moore "Seven Septs of Laois" guys tested L1446- & L1447-, while Les Gibson tested L1448+. So L1448 is a Gibson SNP. The GD between Les Gibson and Ernest Gibson would appear perhaps large enough to make L1448 a polymorphism rather than a "private" marker.

L1446 and L1447 were not reported as finds in David Reynolds (CTS3655+) Fullgenomes results. David is checking to see whether they were ancestral, as opposed to no-calls. Once that is known, we have enough info on L1446 & L1447 to have them placed on the haplotree. If the GD is sufficient, that might make L1448 eligible for the ytree also.

Ernest Johnson
10-24-2013, 05:17 PM
Rory,
Thanks for the information. I know polymorphism in Nature is differences in the same species, but how does it apply to dna. I know a number of marker differences in value between my uncle and Les is on fast mutating strs so I took that to account for our appeared distance. We both claim descend from a common ancestor that was born in the late 1600s or early 1700s.



One of the Moore "Seven Septs of Laois" guys tested L1446- & L1447-, while Les Gibson tested L1448+. So L1448 is a Gibson SNP. The GD between Les Gibson and Ernest Gibson would appear perhaps large enough to make L1448 a polymorphism rather than a "private" marker.

L1446 and L1447 were not reported as finds in David Reynolds (CTS3655+) Fullgenomes results. David is checking to see whether they were ancestral, as opposed to no-calls. Once that is known, we have enough info on L1446 & L1447 to have them placed on the haplotree. If the GD is sufficient, that might make L1448 eligible for the ytree also.

Rory Cain
10-24-2013, 11:13 PM
Rory,
Thanks for the information. I know polymorphism in Nature is differences in the same species, but how does it apply to dna. I know a number of marker differences in value between my uncle and Les is on fast mutating strs so I took that to account for our appeared distance. We both claim descend from a common ancestor that was born in the late 1600s or early 1700s.

Strictly speaking "polymorphisms" simply means multiple forms. Using that definition, any mutation would create a polymorphism. However the early SNP discoveries such as those marketed in FTDNA's Deep Clade v.1 mostly proved to be singletons, therefore not very "poly", or multiple, at all. A slight shift in meaning occurred where a single mutation alone does not necessarily create a polymorphism until multiple occurrences are identified. At least that's about how I as an amateur understand it.

The term "private" is equally fraught with interpretative problems. Does it mean a singleton (i.e. single occurrence)? Or does it mean a privacy freak? Like the Campbell guy in whose kit WTY found L130, but because he opted for privacy he locked up L130 so that it was hidden in his underwear drawer for years, hidden even from other L130+ folks, until Geno2 ignored the individual, thought of the majority, started testing for it. Now that's private! Proprietorial, even! At least the singletons are willing to share. Fortunately now other L130+ are allowed to discover their identity. But we still haven't settled on a single meaning for "private" and perhaps never will.

I now confess to my own sins, that is I recall your uncle & Les being a GD of 7 from an earlier calculation I did. Had that been at 67 markers, it would have qualified L1448 as public. But my memory was faulty and that GD was at 11 markers, well under the ISOGG requirement of 10% genetic diversity at 67 markers. Nonetheless we now know that L1448 is, for the present at least, a Gibson marker.

Ernest Johnson
10-25-2013, 06:50 PM
Rory,
Refresh my memory. How do you determine the GD? Les and my uncle are 10 steps at 111 markers.
Thanks
Ernest


Strictly speaking "polymorphisms" simply means multiple forms. Using that definition, any mutation would create a polymorphism. However the early SNP discoveries such as those marketed in FTDNA's Deep Clade v.1 mostly proved to be singletons, therefore not very "poly", or multiple, at all. A slight shift in meaning occurred where a single mutation alone does not necessarily create a polymorphism until multiple occurrences are identified. At least that's about how I as an amateur understand it.

The term "private" is equally fraught with interpretative problems. Does it mean a singleton (i.e. single occurrence)? Or does it mean a privacy freak? Like the Campbell guy in whose kit WTY found L130, but because he opted for privacy he locked up L130 so that it was hidden in his underwear drawer for years, hidden even from other L130+ folks, until Geno2 ignored the individual, thought of the majority, started testing for it. Now that's private! Proprietorial, even! At least the singletons are willing to share. Fortunately now other L130+ are allowed to discover their identity. But we still haven't settled on a single meaning for "private" and perhaps never will.

I now confess to my own sins, that is I recall your uncle & Les being a GD of 7 from an earlier calculation I did. Had that been at 67 markers, it would have qualified L1448 as public. But my memory was faulty and that GD was at 11 markers, well under the ISOGG requirement of 10% genetic diversity at 67 markers. Nonetheless we now know that L1448 is, for the present at least, a Gibson marker.

Rory Cain
10-26-2013, 10:22 PM
Rory,
Refresh my memory. How do you determine the GD? Les and my uncle are 10 steps at 111 markers.
Thanks
Ernest

Two methods:
1. ISOGG Genetic Diversity method: Align two sets of results and then count up how many markers match. It is often easier to count those that do not match. If I am not mistaken, that gives your Uncle Ernest and Les a Genetic Diversity of 8 mismatches at 67 markers. Good thing you got me to recount. This would appear to meet ISOGG's requirement for 10% Genetic Diversity at 67 markers. One needs 7 mismatches at 67 markers to achieve 10% and it looks like you got that.

2. Family Tree DNA Genetic Distance method: Align two sets of results and identify the mismatches as before. Difference is this time you count not only the mismatch but also the number of steps. E.g. Ernests's DYS534=17 and Les' DYS534=14 is a two step mutation (the others are just one digit apart and are one-step mutations). It is this possible to produce a different answer, in this case GD=8 at 67 markers, not 7 as above.

Note the two methods measure appear to the same thing (GD) but they use different methods and the product is not the same thing. ISOGG's "GD" is "Genetic Diversity"and FTDNA's "GD" is "Genetic Distance". However you will often just see "GD" used for both.

TigerMW
10-26-2013, 11:14 PM
Do we know where L1448 fits. What SNP is immediately above it? What SNPs are known to be parallel or downstream? Any question marks on those?


Strictly speaking "polymorphisms" simply means multiple forms. Using that definition, any mutation would create a polymorphism. However the early SNP discoveries such as those marketed in FTDNA's Deep Clade v.1 mostly proved to be singletons, therefore not very "poly", or multiple, at all. A slight shift in meaning occurred where a single mutation alone does not necessarily create a polymorphism until multiple occurrences are identified. At least that's about how I as an amateur understand it.

The term "private" is equally fraught with interpretative problems. Does it mean a singleton (i.e. single occurrence)? Or does it mean a privacy freak? Like the Campbell guy in whose kit WTY found L130, but because he opted for privacy he locked up L130 so that it was hidden in his underwear drawer for years, hidden even from other L130+ folks, until Geno2 ignored the individual, thought of the majority, started testing for it. Now that's private! Proprietorial, even! At least the singletons are willing to share. Fortunately now other L130+ are allowed to discover their identity. But we still haven't settled on a single meaning for "private" and perhaps never will.

I now confess to my own sins, that is I recall your uncle & Les being a GD of 7 from an earlier calculation I did. Had that been at 67 markers, it would have qualified L1448 as public. But my memory was faulty and that GD was at 11 markers, well under the ISOGG requirement of 10% genetic diversity at 67 markers. Nonetheless we now know that L1448 is, for the present at least, a Gibson marker.

Rory Cain
10-27-2013, 08:30 AM
Do we know where L1448 fits. What SNP is immediately above it? What SNPs are known to be parallel or downstream? Any question marks on those?

Mike, we know where L1448 sits. The uncertainty concerns the exact relationship between the two SNPs immediately upstream. So far both are parallel but my test could well make one the "father" of the other. Results to date include:
34503 Gibson (WTY) DF5+ Z248+ L1446+ L1447+ L1448+
178330 Gibson DF21+ L1448+
145178 Griffeth DF5+ Z248+ L658- CTS3655- L1446+ L1447+ L1448-
N39920 Sharpe DF5+ Z248+ L1446+ L1447+ L1448-
Lyon (DF21 project) DF5+ Z248+ CTS3655- L1402- L1403- L1446- L1447- L1448-
Moore ("Seven Septs of Laois" DF5+ Z248+ L1402+ L1403+ Sub-group, R-DF21 project) L1446- L1447- L1448-
Reynolds (Fullgenomes) DF5+ Z248+ CTS3655+ L627+ awaiting L1446 L1447 L1448 not reported in initial results. Unknown yet if negative or no call.

I deduce L1448 to be a sub-clade of L1446 and/or L1447 and public marker given its genetic diversity but so far found only in two Gibsons.
L1447 & L1448 appear to cover the remainder of the Griffeth/Hughes/Jones/Morgan/Owen/ Thomas/Davenport/Sharpe/Hodnett North Wales DF5+ group.
Awaiting Reynolds (CTS3655+) final report from Fullgenomes & any report re my Fullgenomes test. My (L658+ CTS3655-) genetic distance is the next closest to the L1446+ L1447+ North Wales group.

Griff
10-27-2013, 06:42 PM
L1447 & L1448 appear to cover the remainder of the Griffeth/Hughes/Jones/Morgan/Owen/ Thomas/Davenport/Sharpe/Hodnett North Wales DF5+ group.

Cousin Rory, did you mean "L1446 & L1447 appear …" ?? Looked to me like a typo.

Eagerly awaiting your results and David's!

-Griff

TigerMW
10-27-2013, 07:27 PM
Mike, we know where L1448 sits. The uncertainty concerns the exact relationship between the two SNPs immediately upstream. So far both are parallel but my test could well make one the "father" of the other....
145178 Griffeth DF5+ Z248+ L658- CTS3655- L1446+ L1447+ L1448-
N39920 Sharpe DF5+ Z248+ L1446+ L1447+ L1448-
..

I read that as L1448 is downstream of both L1446 and L1447, right?

RonaldG123
10-27-2013, 11:22 PM
My L1446 and L1447 are supposed to be out on the 5th, I will be back when they come out to share the results.

Rory Cain
10-28-2013, 01:13 AM
I read that as L1448 is downstream of both L1446 and L1447, right?

Right. That much is known, or can be inferred by the results.

Having "locked in" the downstream SNP, L1448, we are now working back upstream with the hope of splitting L1446 & L1447. Since the Griffeth & Sharpe samples are positive for both, I am the next closest so my Fullgenomes results will be valuable. But with the speed that Fullgenomes are operating at, it is far more likely that Ron Gillespie will receive his FTDNA tests for L1446 & L1447 before I receive anything.

Griff
10-28-2013, 01:50 AM
Rory, these are the times that try men's souls! One way or another, we shall learn much from both impending test results!

-Griff

Ernest Johnson
10-29-2013, 12:58 AM
How long before ISOGG accepted L1446/L1447 in their tree as subclades?

Two methods:
1. ISOGG Genetic Diversity method: Align two sets of results and then count up how many markers match. It is often easier to count those that do not match. If I am not mistaken, that gives your Uncle Ernest and Les a Genetic Diversity of 8 mismatches at 67 markers. Good thing you got me to recount. This would appear to meet ISOGG's requirement for 10% Genetic Diversity at 67 markers. One needs 7 mismatches at 67 markers to achieve 10% and it looks like you got that.

2. Family Tree DNA Genetic Distance method: Align two sets of results and identify the mismatches as before. Difference is this time you count not only the mismatch but also the number of steps. E.g. Ernests's DYS534=17 and Les' DYS534=14 is a two step mutation (the others are just one digit apart and are one-step mutations). It is this possible to produce a different answer, in this case GD=8 at 67 markers, not 7 as above.

Note the two methods measure appear to the same thing (GD) but they use different methods and the product is not the same thing. ISOGG's "GD" is "Genetic Diversity"and FTDNA's "GD" is "Genetic Distance". However you will often just see "GD" used for both.

Rory Cain
10-29-2013, 02:52 AM
How long before ISOGG accepted L1446/L1447 in their tree as subclades?

Fair question. Their website has a link to their listing criteria. One "under the counter" listing criteria that does not appear is that where two SNPs like L1446/L1447 occur and are not split by either a L1446+/L1447- or L1446-/L1447+ result, they do not list both of them- one will be accepted while the other will be left in the freezer. Observe DF5/Z248. These are inseparable Siamese twins, it appears. DF5 was added to the ISOGG tree years ago, Z248 was left in the freezer and only added some weeks ago. Very likely L1446 will be selected in an entirely arbitrary process, and L1448 left in the freezer for God only knows how long.

If L1446 and L1447 can be separated, then they would be listed as "father" and "son" as one would expect. Test results for myself, David Reynolds, Paul Burn & Ron Gillespie are all pending. David's and mine are through Fullgenomes so the timeframe is anyone's guess. Paul & Ron's tests are through FTDNA and they appear to have overcome the backlog of the last several months to be about on time with their delivery, so should outpace Fullgenomes barring the need for any re-runs. It would be premature to apply to ISOGG for L1447/L1448 to be listed without first seeing if the above tests pending can split L1446 & L1447. The Genetic Diversity between the testees would meet the diversity requirements, once those results are in.

With L148, I am unsure if ISOGG would look only at your GD=10 at Y111 compared with Les Gibson, which equals 9% genetic diversity and thus fails the requirement. Or would they apply the other rule of 7 mismatches at 67 markers or less, in which case the two Gibsons meet the genetic diversity requirement. Frankly I don't know. There is a group within ISOGG who go the hardline every time, based on the strictest interpretation of a single rule to the exclusion of all other considerations and a progressive group who examine the evidence more broadly. The blinkered group clinging like limpets to a single rule appear to be the less technically competent, hence their unwillingness to consider the evidence in full. But that doesn't affect the numbers.the less technically competent and the more technically competent get equal weighting on their votes. I guess if rules always produced predictable consistent results it would put these guys out of a job!

Griff
10-29-2013, 03:29 PM
Rory, check message #205 for David's results. Thanks!

Rory Cain
10-29-2013, 11:44 PM
Rory, check message #205 for David's results. Thanks!

Griff, I have indeed. Not actually much more to report though. It's all in the comparison. Indeed but for the comparison I would have by-passed Fullgenomes and have gone straight to the Hong Kong lab a year or more ago. I had checked out whole Y sequencing for $1000 with UD firms, one of whom put me in contact with an Aussie agricultural scientist, who pointed me towards the Hong Kong lab. However without other human, especially DF21+ samples, there would have been no comparison possible and I would just have an alphabet soup of raw data. So I'm hoping Fullgenomes data interpretation is worth the long wait, firstly for Fullgenomes arrival in this field, and then the further log wait for their Slow Boat To China!

Really all we gained so far from comparison of Davids results is that he shares three SNPs with anonymous kits from 1K Genomes testing, and that these three SNPs lie between Z246 and CTS3655. So they may pad out the ytree a little further in that region, or they may be approximate to existing SNPs like DF25, DF5 & Z248.

The two SNPs we are awaiting data for, namely L1446 & L1447, were not reported in the interpretation David received so he has to wait for his raw data and see if these were genuine negatives as opposed to ambiguous, no calls, or not observed at all.

The 40 new SNPs and one new InDel reported mean nothing without comparison. Fellow DF21+ Alex Williamson received his kit after David and so should have included a report of which of David's new SNPs he shared. Inexplicably, that didn't happen so we are still in the dark. David and Alex will have to hunt for that information themselves when they receive their raw data. See the value of the interpretation report? I hope my decision to not go straight to HK a few years ago and to hold off until Fullgenomes arrives is justified by the more complete interpretation that my decision was based on. But it seems I still have a long wait before I find out.

Rory Cain
10-29-2013, 11:46 PM
Cousin Rory, did you mean "L1446 & L1447 appear …" ?? Looked to me like a typo.

Eagerly awaiting your results and David's!

-Griff

Griff, sorry I missed this post. You are quite correct. L1446 and L1447 are right, and L1448 while having the genetic diversity to qualify as public, is found in only the Gibsons thus far.

RonaldG123
11-09-2013, 03:03 PM
would anyone know if Z248 is found in large quantities along the borders of Scotland and England? And if it is not where are the largest quantities? Is there any information I would be able to get from anyone about it?

RonaldG123
11-09-2013, 05:13 PM
I have Z290,Z248 on my certificate so I am assuming that Z248 is telling me something? Maybe Z248 is Britons and would go with Celts?

Rory Cain
11-12-2013, 07:07 AM
I have Z290,Z248 on my certificate so I am assuming that Z248 is telling me something? Maybe Z248 is Britons and would go with Celts?

Ron, I see no-one has provided you with an answer. I'll have a shot. If you have Z290 & Z248 then you will also have P312, which I read as the baseline Celtic marker, found in most Celts and their descendants who may not necessarily identify as Celtic nowadays and may well speak English or another non-Celtic language. You will also have L21 which is found in the British Isles branch of the Celtic race and adjacent countries of Europe's Atlantic coast. Z290 is parallel to Z290.

Downstream of L21 and Z290 is DF21. As you know I believe DF21 equates to the movements of the tribe known as the Ui Bairrche in Ireland. Their name is the local Irish version of the name Brigantes as used in Britain. Z248, which is parallel to DF5, is but one branch of DF21. It is found in the Seven Septs of Laois whose stronghold was the Barony of Slevemargy ("mount of the Ui Bairrche), west of the River Barrow (which names also comes from the Ui Bairrche).

The parent clade of DF21 is also found in members of the Tracy sept who were chiefs of Ui Bairrche Tire ("Tire" means "land", so Ui Bairrche Land). Plus a Cullen possible DF5. The O'Cullens were another Ui Bairrche Tire sept. And in at least one Gorman, a sept who were chiefs of Crioch Ui Bairrche ("crioch" means "frontier"). Also a Brannan probable DF5. One Brannan sept were members of the Ui Bairrche Maighe hAilbe branch. These DF21+, DF5-, Z248- guys have the so-called "Ely Carroll" DNA type, based on early recruiting which was selective in recruiting Carrolls and excluding others. Wider recruiting has revealed the so-called Ely Carroll type in a number of Ui Bairrche surnames. This looks worthy of further research.

BTW, I guess you know of FTDNA's Big Y test which is presently available for $495 as an alternative to Fullgenomes' Full Y at $1250. What you pay is what you get, of course.

RonaldG123
11-12-2013, 03:48 PM
I did not get + results for the L1446 and L1447 so what does that mean for my results?

Dubhthach
11-12-2013, 04:01 PM
I did not get + results for the L1446 and L1447 so what does that mean for my results? Does it mean that I do not fit in the DF21 project, or does it mean that we did not go to Ireland. I would like to find out if my results are more English or Irish? :\

North-West European? ;)

RonaldG123
11-12-2013, 04:08 PM
I ran my results through EUtest V2 K15 Oracle, it is down at the moment. West Scottish, Southeast English, Southwest English, Danish, Irish, Orcadian,German,Norwegian and believe these would fit that , I think?

RonaldG123
11-12-2013, 04:10 PM
Rory I am back on board with the Ui Bairrche.

RonaldG123
11-12-2013, 04:12 PM
@ Griff I had hoped we would be able to connect from Wales :) I am sure that your answers will be good ones.

Griff
11-12-2013, 06:31 PM
@ Griff I had hoped we would be able to connect from Wales :) I am sure that your answers will be good ones.

Ronald, they always say that Welsh are Irish who couldn't swim …

-Griff

RonaldG123
11-12-2013, 10:55 PM
Rory, I have a book Henri Hubert The Rise Of The Celts that says the Menapii and the Brigantes also the Cauci had combined settlements.

Rory Cain
11-13-2013, 06:18 AM
Rory, I have a book Henri Hubert The Rise Of The Celts that says the Menapii and the Brigantes also the Cauci had combined settlements.

Firstly, where does L1446-, L1447- leave you? Answer: At DF5+, Z248+, but without a downstream SNP like the Seven Septs of Laois have in L1402 & L1403, or others with CTS3655, L658, L1446 and/or L1447. But perhaps some or David R's or my new SNPs will cover enough territory to take in some guys like yourself still searching for a downstream SNP.

I have read Henri. Certainly an advance on the fictional Book of Invasions although not as fresh in outlook as O'Rahilly or O'Connor's Hand of History. In addition to the tribes that you mentioned in the southeast i.e. the Menapii, Brigantes and Cauci, there were also the Coriondi. As O'Rahilly states, "The name of the Manapii has long been recognized as a variant of that of the Menapii, a Gaulish tribe who were seated on the Meuse and on the Lower Rhine." Their movements in Ireland appear to have an affinity with haplogroup Z253. O'Rahilly refers next to the Coriondi, noting that the Coriontotae were recorded on a Latin inscription at hexham in the territory of the Brigantes, suggesting that Coriondi may be a corruption of Corioni. He further mentions Corin(n)ion, the Britic name of Cirencester further south. It is likely that the Brigantes and their sub-tribe the Corioni had originally been settled in the south of Britain and pushed north by later arrivals. Next O'Rahilly refers to the Brigantes "whom it is hardly possible to disassociate from the Brigantes of Britain. Another Briganten sub-tribe the Setantii gave their names to famous Irish hero Cuchulainn whose personal name was Setanta. The Cauci may have been the Ui Cuaich, an obscure subdivision of the Ui Bairrche (i.e. Brigantes). O'Rahilly's original source is Ptolomey's 2nd century map of Ireland which names and locates the tribes of that time. Ptolomey also listed the Vodie who are elsewhere called the Usdiae, and located to the west if the Brigantes in the territory of the Osraige, which may be the original name.

According to their pedigree, the Osraige branched off the main Ui Bairrche stem. The Manapii join the stem of the Ui Bairrche pedigree at an earlier date, although I have reservations about that seeing Manapii folk movements bear an affinity to Haplogroup Z253 and Ui Bairrche folk movements bear an affinity to haplogroup DF21 locations. All this was buried under the bulldust of the Book of Invasions until O'Rahilly risked the ire of revisionists who just revised and reprinted the Book of Invasions fiction by totally reinterpreting older Irish legends that still survived and were at variance with the Book of Invasions. So you and I are in there somewhere, or at least our ancestors are. It was nice of the Munster dynasty to accept the Ui Bairrche druid Trad mac Taoiseach and his descendants the Tradraige as Saerthuatha Muma or Munster nobility until Clare was taken from the Eoganacht by the upstart Dal gCas. Nice too of our new sponsors the Ui Faichra Aidhne, when they were pushed south into Aidhne, to leave us in possession of the peninsula of Tradraige Dubh-ros and make us Connaught nobility with an Ui Fiachra pedigree. Thanks for the memories guys, but as we Cathanach of Tradraige Dubh-ros are neither M222 like our Ui Faichra pedigree says, or CTS4466 like our Eoganacht pedigree says, but DF21 we need to look for our roots amongst our Ui Bairrche kinfolks whether in Leinster or dispersed elsewhere like us.

I hope that in time, Ron, I can find information that helps you too. Don't be surprised if it doesn't match what the the pulp mill press churns out as "Irish History".

RonaldG123
11-13-2013, 10:52 AM
So probably my descendants were peasants, or from Britain and it could take years to find out. How exciting maybe I should stick to fantasy books.

Rory Cain
11-14-2013, 12:09 AM
So probably my descendants were peasants, or from Britain and it could take years to find out. How exciting maybe I should stick to fantasy books.

DF21 includes chiefs like O'Donoghue Ross, Lord Macdonald of Islay, the Seven Septs of Laois, and others. Also druids like the Tradraige. Druids were nobility. I daresay DF21 also included peasants.

It is indeed likely that all or nearly all migrations to Ireland came from Britain. There is no genetic support for the fictional sons of Mil migrating from Spain. However some migrations may have come straight from Gaul to Ireland. When the Cruithne (Irish Picts) acting as mercenaries for the Ui Cinnsealach regime, reversed the losses the Ui Bairrche had inflicted on the Cruithne and took back some turf, the Ui Bairrche were referred to as Bretnach or Britons. From the aboriginal Cruithne perspective that would be so. That could explain why the O'Cathain sept of Galway share some rare off-modal marker values with the north Wales guys like Griff. Chances are we did arrive in ireland by way of Britain. Or the north Wales group could represent a back-migration as Irish tribes reinforced the re-emerging Celtic kingdoms of Britain as Rome's hold weakened.

Maybe we will know more when my Fullgenomes results arrive. BTW, a member of the O'Beirne Roscommon DF5 cluster just tested L1446-, L1447- same as you. The north Wales guys have these SNPs. Curious whether I have.

Griff
11-14-2013, 01:39 AM
...That could explain why the O'Cathain sept of Galway share some rare off-modal marker values with the north Wales guys like Griff. Chances are we did arrive in ireland by way of Britain. Or the north Wales group could represent a back-migration as Irish tribes reinforced the re-emerging Celtic kingdoms of Britain as Rome's hold weakened.

OR, maybe the Irish are Welsh who couldn't swim (the other way)! :P

-Griff

RonaldG123
11-14-2013, 09:21 PM
Z290,Z248. Griff I heard it said that the Basque is similar to Ireland and Wales B)

Griff
11-15-2013, 12:14 AM
Z290,Z248. Griff I heard it said that the Basque is similar to Ireland and Wales B)

I am NO authority, but the possibility of a Basque connection seems to have died out.

-Griff

RonaldG123
11-15-2013, 12:45 AM
I do not know how anyone would believe that, there are many studies that talk about basque being predominant in the Isles. It seems to me that may depend on peoples beliefs. I am Z290,Z248, 390=24 DYS391=11. The mistake people make is that the later people had very similar genetic makeup as the former.

TigerMW
11-15-2013, 03:28 AM
I do not know how anyone would believe that, there are many studies that talk about basque being predominant in the Isles. It seems to me that may depend on peoples beliefs. I am Z290,Z248, 390=24 DYS391=11. The mistake people make is that the later people had very similar genetic makeup as the former.
I don't know about autosomal or mt DNA but on the Y DNA side, the primary types of R1b in the Isles are mostly of haplogroups that would have branched from the haplogroups found most in Iberia about 3000 or maybe even 4000 years ago. This would have been long before anything that we could culturally consider to be Basque.

Are you guys finding a lot of DF21 in Iberia?

RonaldG123
11-15-2013, 04:06 PM
My Z290,DF5,Z248,DF21,DF25, with DYS390=24 and DYS391=11 are from Iberia or at least the Z290,DF5 are from Gaul,Britain,Mediterranean,Iberia and were connected to ancient Aboriginal and Berber people. Of these haplogroups what ones are more Aboriginal?

Rory Cain
11-15-2013, 11:24 PM
I am NO authority, but the possibility of a Basque connection seems to have died out.

-Griff

I believe so, Griff. I recall Brian Sykes was promoting Basque origins quite vigorously. Genetists were focusing heavily on the Basque population in the early days of DNA testing. However they were wasting their time there in the Basque country, and wasting our money testing for obscure private Basque SNP markers in products like FTDNA's Deep Clade Mark I. Because of the focus on the Basque, and searching for a North-South split in western DNA, they totally overlooked or failed the appreciate the significance of P312, which produced an East-West split instead. The P312 evidence didn't match the pre-conceived answer they were seeking.

Those Basques within R1b have less genetic diversity than Eastern Europeans within R1b. That is a major clue that tends to make the Basques the end product and Eastern Europe/Caucasus/west central Asia the Mark I product.

Further, P312 indicates an east to west movement from the Caucasus, not south to north from the Pyrenees.

Further again, SNPs downstream of P312 indicate a population build-up in the Alps which spread outwards from there, U152 into Italy, L21 down the Rhine valley to the British Isles, L238 to Norway, etc.

The Basque theory appears to have been laid to rest. We Irish perhaps had a particular liking for the Basque theory as it held out the promise of supporting the fable of the sons of Mil migrating from Galicia in NW Spain. Some still cling to that although those who rely on the DNA evidence rather than mythology have moved on and now accept that the Celts most likely arrived in the British Isles as Gauls from either Gallia Belgica or Gallia Celtica (modernday Belgium with southern Netherlands, and modernday France). I think the P312+ Anglos too have been happy to move on from the Basque theory although I see evidence that not all of them are comfortable with the evidence now pointing to Celtic origins.

However perhaps the most stunning result of DNA studies has been the demolition of the notion of a pure-bred Germanic race. The Germanic peoples are more of a linguistic group, so genetically mixed it is not even possible to state with any certainty which haplogroup is the genuine Germanic haplogroup (if there really is such a thing), with the U106 branch of P312 looking like Celts who simply came to speak Germanic (don't we all nowadays!), R1a looking more Slavic than Germanic, and I being split between I1, !2a and I2b. Which of those to choose? I1 seems to be favoured the most, but that would make the Swedes the most purebred Germanic race. And maybe they are. But try telling that to a German or an Englishman! The anti-semetic part of the Nazi message has long been discredited but some still clung precariously to the Germanic master race part of it. Now that too can be dumped in the dustbin of history.

RonaldG123
11-23-2013, 05:11 PM
So the only other place my Z290,Z248,DF5,DF21,DF25 could have wen't to Ireland from according to the Gillespie ancestry is Southwest England. Sometimes it is as good to rule things out as it is to rule them in when determining your ancestry.