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Rory Cain
05-29-2015, 09:03 PM
There is an updating for the MacEgans chiefly line in progress, there is also a gap of four generations in his pedigree.

Every genealogy that goes back to the mythical Milesius is fabricated anyway, so I am not greatly disturbed by a four generation gap. Indeed, one could say that it represents a degree of honesty, which is refreshing.

Peter MacDonald
07-10-2015, 02:57 AM
Hello everyone,

To my understanding the Y DNA data being discussed on this thread comes primarily through the FTDNA database (although greatly refined through various groups with regard to its interpretation). I am curious if anyone on this thread has had access or a glimpse of Scotlands DNA (or Irelands/Englands DNA) database? Very curious to know the extent of their database and whether or not it has been leveraged with FTDNA's database at any point in order to support any proposed theories?

Rory Cain
07-23-2015, 11:11 AM
Hello everyone,

To my understanding the Y DNA data being discussed on this thread comes primarily through the FTDNA database (although greatly refined through various groups with regard to its interpretation). I am curious if anyone on this thread has had access or a glimpse of Scotlands DNA (or Irelands/Englands DNA) database? Very curious to know the extent of their database and whether or not it has been leveraged with FTDNA's database at any point in order to support any proposed theories?

Peter, good question. Good idea too, except that it would place customer interests over commercial interests. It appears that FTDNA and Scotlands DNA are commercial rivals. You may have noticed that each studiously avoids using SNP names that attribute an SNP to their opposition. Each either assigns their own name to an already discovered SNP, or uses the name given by a third party. So based on that observation, it is very doubtful that the two rival companies have ever shared information with each other. I hope that someone can prove me wrong here. If you can do so, then please do.

Dubhthach
07-24-2015, 08:26 AM
What we know from ScotlandsDNA research is that the House of Stewart are DF41+, they verified this by testing two Stewart Ducal lines (one of which is descended from illegitimate son of Charles II)

The original research pointed at L744/L745/L746 as been specific subclade. This has been further refined, with mainline of Stewart family (that ruled the three Kingdoms) appearing to belong to S781. The bifurcation of lineage has been traced to Alexander 4th High Steward of Scotland (1214-1283). Descendants of one of his son's show up as S781- where as descendants of other son (through both of his own sons) showed up as S781+ in ScotlandsDNA research.

Other than releasing a press statement they didn't do any actual paper about it which is abit of a disapointment to be honest.

BigY research shows this section of DF41 looks like following:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=85&star=false

-Paul

Rory Cain
08-08-2015, 09:46 PM
Oneillabu's original intention was to analyse chiefly DNA types. It looks like DF41 Stuart, DF49 O'Kelly of Ui Maine, M222 O'Conor Don, P314.2 McCarthy Reagh and others have been determined by sampling. Other folks may know of more. In the case of O'Donoghue Mor, the chiefs DNA did not match that of his clansmen. That happens. The Clan Donald folks state that the DNA of their chiefs is R1a while that of their clansmen is R1b.

Perhaps oneillabu could give us an update of where the matching of DNA to chiefly lines is at. It's an interesting topic in it's own right, even if peripheral to my own interests.

MacEochaidh
08-09-2015, 03:35 AM
Oneillabu's original intention was to analyse chiefly DNA types. It looks like DF41 Stuart, DF49 O'Kelly of Ui Maine, M222 O'Conor Don, P314.2 McCarthy Reagh and others have been determined by sampling. Other folks may know of more. In the case of O'Donoghue Mor, the chiefs DNA did not match that of his clansmen. That happens. The Clan Donald folks state that the DNA of their chiefs is R1a while that of their clansmen is R1b.

Perhaps oneillabu could give us an update of where the matching of DNA to chiefly lines is at. It's an interesting topic in it's own right, even if peripheral to my own interests.

Is DF23* part of any group? I see DF49 and M222, so I thought maybe DF23* could sneak in somewhere.

Heber
08-09-2015, 08:30 AM
Oneillabu's original intention was to analyse chiefly DNA types. It looks like DF41 Stuart, DF49 O'Kelly of Ui Maine, M222 O'Conor Don, P314.2 McCarthy Reagh and others have been determined by sampling. Other folks may know of more. In the case of O'Donoghue Mor, the chiefs DNA did not match that of his clansmen. That happens. The Clan Donald folks state that the DNA of their chiefs is R1a while that of their clansmen is R1b.

Perhaps oneillabu could give us an update of where the matching of DNA to chiefly lines is at. It's an interesting topic in it's own right, even if peripheral to my own interests.

Last year, I attended the TCD conference which marked the Millenium of the Battle of Clontarf. Bart Jaski presented an interesting paper on the Ui Brian genealogies. Here is his paper on Genealogical tables of medieval Irish royal dynasties.
It is an extraordinary piece of work with 74 detailed genealogies of chiefly lines with dates for each entry.
I believe we should set ourselves the goal of mapping these genealogies to the phylogenetic tree.

https://www.academia.edu/4144299/Genealogical_tables_of_medieval_Irish_royal_dynast ies

http://www.irish-annals.cs.tcd.ie/

5520

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-genealogies/

Rory Cain
08-09-2015, 09:32 PM
I believe we should set ourselves the goal of mapping these genealogies to the phylogenetic tree.


Absolutely, and be prepared for some of the genealogies to unravel, like when you tug at a loose thread. Even those that hold together better may look more like a patchwork quilt than a cohesive garment. Of course you know that, Gerard.

At some future point then, we may have to move on from a reliance upon genealogies as recorded by ruling dynasties for political purposes. If we had the DNA data, a genetic atlas would be one useful cross-check.

Rory Cain
08-11-2015, 09:53 PM
[QUOTE=MacEochaidh;101038]Is DF23* part of any group? I see DF49 and M222, so I thought maybe DF23* could sneak in somewhere.

Sorry, but I don't know, not having tracked oneillabu's work that closely. I just mentioned a few that I knew. Oneillabu would be the man to ask.

David Mc
08-12-2015, 03:46 AM
Is DF23* part of any group? I see DF49 and M222, so I thought maybe DF23* could sneak in somewhere.

I had thought O'Kelly of Ui Maine was DF23, but I could be mistaken.

Rory Cain
08-12-2015, 09:03 PM
I had thought O'Kelly of Ui Maine was DF23, but I could be mistaken.
The Kelleys DNA project has numerous subgroups as one would expect from such a numerous and widespread surname. Then the next problem is to sort out the Ui Maine from the numerous other Kelly Septs. One group is designated DF49 > DF23 > Z2961+ Ui Maine. From that designation, it would appear that they have lost their asterix and are now Z2961+.

David Mc
08-12-2015, 10:13 PM
Hi Rory-- that's fair; MacEochaidh did include an asterisk after DF23, but I took him to be referring to DF23xM222 in general. I'd tend to call them DF23 for the simple reason that it distinguishes them from DF49xDF23 and from M222. From a broader perspective, they inhabit the DF23 middle-ground; as you try to isolate them into smaller branches, the Z2961 will be important, of course.

Rory Cain
08-12-2015, 11:37 PM
Hi Rory-- that's fair; MacEochaidh did include an asterisk after DF23, but I took him to be referring to DF23xM222 in general. I'd tend to call them DF23 for the simple reason that it distinguishes them from DF49xDF23 and from M222. From a broader perspective, they inhabit the DF23 middle-ground; as you try to isolate them into smaller branches, the Z2961 will be important, of course.

David, I've just quoted straight from the Kelley project results page, not being a DF49 person myself. Similarly Raymond and Aidan also have several sub-clades of my clade, DF21, in the Kelley DNA Project:
Group 17, DF21 is about 1/2 Little Scots Cluster and half non-Little Scots Cluster.
Group 17A, DF21 Clan Colla null DYS425.
Group 17B, DF21 non-Colla null 425.
Group 17C, DF21 Ely O'Carroll
Group 17D, DF21 > P314.2
Group 17E, DF21 Seven Septs of Laois.

Some of those may have been created at my suggestion. I forget which, having liaised several times with the Kelley project admins. If you feel that their groups should be reshuffled in any way, Raymond and Aidan are always willing to listen. I wish all project admins were as cooperative and well informed.

N21163
08-13-2015, 12:59 AM
I have seen a number of Clan Cameron members who are MC14+....still trying to determine further subclades

Rory Cain
08-13-2015, 03:50 AM
I have seen a number of Clan Cameron members who are MC14+....still trying to determine further subclades
Are the MC14+ Cameron's the Chiefly line? I couldn't tell from the Cameron DNA project results page where the biggest group are Ungrouped, mostly M269; and the next biggest group are Lochaber-Fort William DF13.

R-DF21+ chiefly (and/or alleged chiefly) lines include;
Ely O'Carroll R-Z16284
McCarthy Reagh R-P314.2
Macdonald of Islay L1403
Montgomerie R-S5488
Ogilvie R-FGC3213
O'Neill Clanaboy R-L720

Some of the above chiefly claims have been substantiated. Others may be unsubstantiated.

N21163
08-13-2015, 07:09 AM
Are the MC14+ Cameron's the Chiefly line? I couldn't tell from the Cameron DNA project results page where the biggest group are Ungrouped, mostly M269; and the next biggest group are Lochaber-Fort William DF13.

Two Clan members who are MC14 claim descent from Donald M'Allan M'Aneduy Cameron, 1st of Clunes http://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/genealogy/TNGWebsite/getperson.php?personID=I49766&tree=CC
2 x great-grandson (through patrilineal line) of Ewen Allanson Cameron, 1st of Locheil, 13th Chief http://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/genealogy/TNGWebsite/getperson.php?personID=I19969&tree=CC

Baleiric
08-13-2015, 07:51 PM
This is a bit off topic but would you be able to tell me if MacKiernan is an Irish or Scottish sir name? I have been told both.
Cheers
Baleiric

Rory Cain
08-13-2015, 09:21 PM
[QUOTE=Baleiric;102084]This is a bit off topic but would you be able to tell me if MacKiernan is an Irish or Scottish sir name? I have been told both.
Cheers
QUOTE]

Oops! Kinda misread the surname there, having been working on McKissicks. The Irish name Mac Thighearnain can become Kiernan, Tiernan, McKiernan and McTiernan if you are looking for them, you have a few spellings to check! The Kiernan DNA project has one presumably non-chiefly Kiernan who has yet to discover SNPs and is estimated as R-M169. The Tiernan project has one Tiernan who is R-L513. Sorry, oneillabu, this is somewhat off-topic as Baleiric says.

Rory Cain
08-13-2015, 09:24 PM
Two Clan members who are MC14 claim descent from Donald M'Allan M'Aneduy Cameron, 1st of Clunes http://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/genealogy/TNGWebsite/getperson.php?personID=I49766&tree=CC
2 x great-grandson (through patrilineal line) of Ewen Allanson Cameron, 1st of Locheil, 13th Chief
Neat! Any other chiefly MC14 lines, either in the Cameron clan or other clans?

pregan
08-16-2015, 04:05 PM
Not sure this has been covered but Nigel McCarthy has taken a stab at putting SNPs to the ancient genealogy of Oilill Olum. He has it as a PDF within the CTS4466-Plus project entitled "1st Millenium Origins". So it covers the Eoghanacht, Ui Liathan, and Ui Fidgenti. Pretty interesting stuff.

Rory Cain
08-16-2015, 11:49 PM
Not sure this has been covered but Nigel McCarthy has taken a stab at putting SNPs to the ancient genealogy of Oilill Olum. He has it as a PDF within the CTS4466-Plus project entitled "1st Millenium Origins". So it covers the Eoghanacht, Ui Liathan, and Ui Fidgenti. Pretty interesting stuff.
Thanks, this does not appear to have been covered before. I found a link to a private forum on yahoo, plus another link to a Dropbox account which anyone should be able to access but from which the document or file had been moved. Too bad.

You have aroused my curiosity though, as I have long wondered how Olioll Olum could father a son Cian whose descendants are DF21, a son Cormack Cas whose descendants are Z253 and a son Eoghan whose descendants can be either P314 or CTS4466. On top of which, it has been questioned whether the Ui Fidgeinti, Ui Liathain and Ui Dedad were Eoganacht at all or were Erainn septs simply tacked onto the Eoganacht genealogy for political purposes.

If we could only see what Nigel McCarthy made of all that, it could make for an interesting discussion indeed.

pregan
08-17-2015, 03:54 PM
I uploaded the tree to dropbox. Hopefully, you can access it here :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kelddxgswltj0q6/1st%20Millenium%20Origins%20%282015-06-20%29.pdf?dl=0

George Chandler
08-18-2015, 12:20 AM
Thanks, this does not appear to have been covered before. I found a link to a private forum on yahoo, plus another link to a Dropbox account which anyone should be able to access but from which the document or file had been moved. Too bad.

You have aroused my curiosity though, as I have long wondered how Olioll Olum could father a son Cian whose descendants are DF21, a son Cormack Cas whose descendants are Z253 and a son Eoghan whose descendants can be either P314 or CTS4466. On top of which, it has been questioned whether the Ui Fidgeinti, Ui Liathain and Ui Dedad were Eoganacht at all or were Erainn septs simply tacked onto the Eoganacht genealogy for political purposes.

If we could only see what Nigel McCarthy made of all that, it could make for an interesting discussion indeed.

Once the Y DNA evidence from human remains such as King Nechtain are made public it should help to clear things up. It's interesting to see all sorts of broken lines from families going back 500 years not to mentioned lines going back 2,000 years or more.

George

Rory Cain
08-18-2015, 03:46 AM
I uploaded the tree to dropbox. Hopefully, you can access it here :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kelddxgswltj0q6/1st%20Millenium%20Origins%20%282015-06-20%29.pdf?dl=0

Thanks. Most interesting. I notice that the problem of the Dal gCas being Z253 is dealt with by not dealing with them - perhaps because there are scholars believe the Dal gCas pedigree to be fabricated anyway. Another interesting solution used is where McCarthy & O'Callaghan are P314 and O'Donoghue Mor is DF5. These septs are dealt with by being listed as branches of CTS4466, then an arrow drags them across to a separate and smaller DF21 tree. I have to admit that it is not such a bad way to deal with these problem children, except that it then makes it hard to explain why the descendats of Cian Cashel, son of Olioll Olum, the Ciannachta, are not treated the same way, especially as the necessity to have a DF21 Y-tree on this otherwise CTS4466 has been accepted as necessary.

I'll let others better qualified than me judge the extent to which the Ui Fidgeinti and Ui Liathain are CTS4466. I am aware of some males with Ui Liathain type surnames being R-DF21. This chart acknowledges that some O'Sullivans are DF21, but also clarifies that these are small numbers. That may apply to Ui Liathain too. I am not going to throw in too many criticisms because it is good that someone had a crack at this sort of chart, and it appears to hang together quite credibly. Something similar for other genetic groups would helpbuild up a more complete picture.

Rory Cain
08-18-2015, 03:49 AM
Once the Y DNA evidence from human remains such as King Nechtain are made public it should help to clear things up. It's interesting to see all sorts of broken lines from families going back 500 years not to mentioned lines going back 2,000 years or more.
George

Hi George, long time no see. You are always on the ball, as with King Nechtain, a development of which I was unaware. It sounds promising though. Please tell us more.

Rory

George Chandler
08-19-2015, 05:15 AM
Hi George, long time no see. You are always on the ball, as with King Nechtain, a development of which I was unaware. It sounds promising though. Please tell us more.

Rory

Hi Rory,
It was my understanding that the cist of bones discovered under the St Andrews Sarcophagus are suspected to be either from King Nechtan mac Der Ilei or his successor Oengus. I don't think they know for certain but there was talk of trying to test the bones. It could be like the suspected bones of Alfred where the test results are protected until a later date.

George

AtWhatCost
08-19-2015, 01:35 PM
Thanks. Most interesting. I notice that the problem of the Dal gCas being Z253 is dealt with by not dealing with them - perhaps because there are scholars believe the Dal gCas pedigree to be fabricated anyway. Another interesting solution used is where McCarthy & O'Callaghan are P314 and O'Donoghue Mor is DF5. These septs are dealt with by being listed as branches of CTS4466, then an arrow drags them across to a separate and smaller DF21 tree. I have to admit that it is not such a bad way to deal with these problem children, except that it then makes it hard to explain why the descendats of Cian Cashel, son of Olioll Olum, the Ciannachta, are not treated the same way, especially as the necessity to have a DF21 Y-tree on this otherwise CTS4466 has been accepted as necessary.

I'll let others better qualified than me judge the extent to which the Ui Fidgeinti and Ui Liathain are CTS4466. I am aware of some males with Ui Liathain type surnames being R-DF21. This chart acknowledges that some O'Sullivans are DF21, but also clarifies that these are small numbers. That may apply to Ui Liathain too. I am not going to throw in too many criticisms because it is good that someone had a crack at this sort of chart, and it appears to hang together quite credibly. Something similar for other genetic groups would helpbuild up a more complete picture.

I don't see any problem with Z253, looks good to me, perhaps the other snps have the problem.

pregan
08-19-2015, 03:53 PM
I have been looking into the proposed Fidgenti marker (CTS4466->Z16259) and the DNA results are fairly supportive. You have the expected Donovan(s) and Collins(s) found here as well as Lawton (an anglicised form of Loughlin and we know Clan Loughlin was a division of the larger O'Donovan Sept).

We do have some Driscolls and McCarthys under Z16259 which can be easily explained as due to clan affiliation. The Donovans, after being forced out of their home territory (Limerick) migrated to Carbery and occupied Driscoll territory. Not surprising that some took on the Driscoll name. Similarily, the McCarthys were the major power in Carbery so clan affiliation there would also be understandable. Our own Nigel McCarthy of the Munster project is one of these McCarthys.

Interestingly enough, and the reason for my interest in Z16259, is that my growing group of O'Regans can be found in a tight knit sub-branch of Z16259. There are 23 of us in this group and I am currently working on a theory for how we are connected to the Fidgenti. In any event, if there is a better SNP that represents the Fidgenti, I would certainly love to know what it is.

N21163
08-19-2015, 06:00 PM
Neat! Any other chiefly MC14 lines, either in the Cameron clan or other clans?

I have not come across any other chiefly lines in the MC14 subclade as yet

oneillabu
08-19-2015, 09:04 PM
I have been looking into the proposed Fidgenti marker (CTS4466->Z16259) and the DNA results are fairly supportive. You have the expected Donovan(s) and Collins(s) found here as well as Lawton (an anglicised form of Loughlin and we know Clan Loughlin was a division of the larger O'Donovan Sept).

We do have some Driscolls and McCarthys under Z16259 which can be easily explained as due to clan affiliation. The Donovans, after being forced out of their home territory (Limerick) migrated to Carbery and occupied Driscoll territory. Not surprising that some took on the Driscoll name. Similarily, the McCarthys were the major power in Carbery so clan affiliation there would also be understandable. Our own Nigel McCarthy of the Munster project is one of these McCarthys.

Interestingly enough, and the reason for my interest in Z16259, is that my growing group of O'Regans can be found in a tight knit sub-branch of Z16259. There are 23 of us in this group and I am currently working on a theory for how we are connected to the Fidgenti. In any event, if there is a better SNP that represents the Fidgenti, I would certainly love to know what it is.

Here are some statistics from an S5488 study based on surname origins, I removed all duplicate entries with the exact same STR patterns and assigned any surname with ambiguous origins to a cluster called undefined however any Scottish surnames that are given as Norman in origin I included in the Scottish clusters because they are clearly not Norman.

Total number in study = 299

Upstream of BY518 or Pre BY518

Total = 146 records

Breakdown of these are as follows

Total Irish surnames = 93

Total Scottish surnames = 15

Total surnames associated with the Lord of the Isles including related septs and territories = 4 (also included in Scottish number)

Total Welsh surnames = 3

Total undefined surnames = 35


Downstream of BY518 or BY518+ people

Total = 153 records

Total Irish surnames = 25

Total Scottish surnames = 113

Total surnames associated with the Lord of the Isles including related septs and territories = 54 (also included in Scottish number)

Total Welsh surnames = 2

Total undefined surnames = 13


Note the complete reversal in the number of Irish and Scottish matches and the very high amount of Lord of the Isles related surnames, even the McLellan cluster which I did not include come from the Hebrides Islands of Uist

You can clearly see from these that this is without a doubt the Royal Dalriada line shown in the pedigrees, remember that the origin of Caribre Riada given in the pedigrees was Munster and the early Irish matches are from these very territories of the Corca Laidhe and Muscraige, what is very interesting is the absolute association with the Lord of the Isles and the outer Hebrides and the 1450 MS pedigree’s also reflect this origin from Fergus Mor Mac Erca, also the Dal Fiatach were related to the Dal Riada and the principle name associated with them is Driscol and we have a Driscol from West Cork who is almost certainly L720+ confirming this ancient connection.

There is now another Irish match to the L720 O'Neill in Neylon at a GD of 6 so this O'Neill is not a singleton, the Driscol has the same unique Scottish markers as the McInnes, McDonald, McLellan, McQuilkin, Gillis and Clan Chattan surname matches which support the findings from the book "The ancient Kingdom of Donegal" that the St Columba line was Dal Fiatach in origin while the O'Neill seems to be a seperate line which is consistent with the Fergus Mor Mac Erc the origin of the Scottish Royal line and Muirceatach Mor Mac Erc the ancestor of O'Neill being Brothers, all of this is consistent with the Cú Roí mac Dáire origin of the Ui Fidgenti and the origin of the Dal Riada

Rory Cain
08-19-2015, 09:27 PM
I don't see any problem with Z253, looks good to me, perhaps the other snps have the problem.

Hmmm, I see a problem still, not with the SNP primers where you may be looking, but with Z253 being some 4200 years old. That doesn't fit the genealogy where it has Z253 converging with the Eoganacht. True, Like Eoghan and Cormac Cas being brothers, Z253 and FGC11134 are brothers as we presently understand the Ytree. But that would equate Olioll Olum with DF13, Eoghan with FGC11134 and Cormac Cas with Z253. That only works if we ignore Olioll Olum and his sons being on earth about 2000 years too late.

I don't know why Cormac Cas and Z253 were left off the chart, but I suspect the answer revolves around the credibility issue as above.

Rory Cain
08-19-2015, 09:36 PM
I have been looking into the proposed Fidgenti marker (CTS4466->Z16259) and the DNA results are fairly supportive. You have the expected Donovan(s) and Collins(s) found here as well as Lawton (an anglicised form of Loughlin and we know Clan Loughlin was a division of the larger O'Donovan Sept).

OK, that sounds like you have Ui Fidgenti surnames with the right SNPs fitting the pedigree. Nice when that happens. We DF21 are split over nearly all of the other dynasties - Eoganacht (as you know); Ciannachta who Nigel left out for some reason even though their ancestor Cian was allegedly a son of Olioll Olum; the Clanna Rory; Ui Fiachra; Ui Briuin and others. And that's Ireland without touching on Scotland!

JamesKane
08-19-2015, 11:38 PM
I suspect the Y tree affiliations for surname will prove out quite complex, and Nigel's attempt to map the Eóganachta will be just a hint of what really happened. The dates when branches emerge and locations will be large factors in understanding the twisted mess caused by creative editing of genealogies.

My own hypothesis is that R-A804 is someone quite close to Conchobar. The various estimations for age are converging around 1200-1300AD. Having the O'Donoghue Mor's line similarly tested could be used to see how that timing lines up for Auliffe's 'sons.'

Rory Cain
08-20-2015, 01:25 AM
I suspect the Y tree affiliations for surname will prove out quite complex, and Nigel's attempt to map the Eóganachta will be just a hint of what really happened. The dates when branches emerge and locations will be large factors in understanding the twisted mess caused by creative editing of genealogies.

My own hypothesis is that R-A804 is someone quite close to Conchobar. The various estimations for age are converging around 1200-1300AD. Having the O'Donoghue Mor's line similarly tested could be used to see how that timing lines up for Auliffe's 'sons.'

James, I suspect that you are quite right about Y tree affiliations for surname proving quite complex. And even in instances where SNPs concidentally or otherwise align with the paper edigree, the SNP coalescence dates appears far to early, or rather the alleged dates of the alleged ancestor appear far too late. The Ui Fiachra pedigree linking DF21+ O'Cathain and O'Mochain septs to the M222+ Ui Fiachra is conicidentally or otherwise correct in joining O'Cathain and O'Mochain but the respective SNPs downstream of DF21 are far older than the date of the pedigree when Iannach, ancestor fo O'Cathain, and Tadhg,ancestor of O'Mochain is a few thousand years too late. Like the M253 Dal gCas and L11134 Eoganacht example above.

O'Donoghue Mor is another another situation again, where he may well prove to be DF5 > FGC5772, FGC5780 like the O'Beirne and O'Cathain septs. He is certainly DF5+ and not CTS4466 as might otherwise have been expected. The O'Cathains were attached to the UiFiachra dynasty, the O'Beirne to the rival Ui Briuin dynasty, and O'Donoghue More to the Eoganacht dynasty leaving the problem of how to reconstruct a genuine pedigree for those three septs. O'Donoghue of the Glens rather than O'Donoghue Mor may be of more use in timing lines for Auliffe's sons as O'Donoghue ofthe Glens is CTS4466.

George Chandler
08-20-2015, 04:31 AM
Oneillabu wrote:

"You can clearly see from these that this is without a doubt the Royal Dalriada line shown in the pedigrees,"

In order for you to have a credible argument on this you need to take test results from Big Y, Y Elite etc and plot those surname results names against each. You need to be able to show that multiple SNP lines match the suspected genealogy of whatever ancient line you're testing for. The only way a person can be 100% certain (or as you say is without a doubt) is to identify remains of a certain historical figure and perform the genetic testing needed. A higher number of surnames or test subjects doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct line.

George

Rory Cain
08-20-2015, 09:53 PM
Oneillabu wrote:

"You can clearly see from these that this is without a doubt the Royal Dalriada line shown in the pedigrees,"

In order for you to have a credible argument on this you need to take test results from Big Y, Y Elite etc and plot those surname results names against each. You need to be able to show that multiple SNP lines match the suspected genealogy of whatever ancient line you're testing for. The only way a person can be 100% certain (or as you say is without a doubt) is to identify remains of a certain historical figure and perform the genetic testing needed. A higher number of surnames or test subjects doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct line.

George

George, sound advice which appears to accord with Nigel McCarthy's chart. The DF21 lines that Nigel showed (and/or did not show, like the Ciannachta) could still be a good start. The DF21 parts if his chart lack equal development to the CTS4466 parts, but it could provide a start point.

What I struggle with though is that DF21 has been tacked onto so many other non-DF21 genealogies that I have never been sure where to start - the Eoganacht, Airghialla, Ciannachta, etc. Even a distinct and discrete genetic group like the Seven Septs of Laois has been split between the Laigin and Clanna Rory pedigrees, and are clearly not the only fabricated parts of those genealogies.

AtWhatCost
08-20-2015, 11:39 PM
Hmmm, I see a problem still, not with the SNP primers where you may be looking, but with Z253 being some 4200 years old. That doesn't fit the genealogy where it has Z253 converging with the Eoganacht. True, Like Eoghan and Cormac Cas being brothers, Z253 and FGC11134 are brothers as we presently understand the Ytree. But that would equate Olioll Olum with DF13, Eoghan with FGC11134 and Cormac Cas with Z253. That only works if we ignore Olioll Olum and his sons being on earth about 2000 years too late.

I don't know why Cormac Cas and Z253 were left off the chart, but I suspect the answer revolves around the credibility issue as above.

I think they were left off because of their importance and that it might rock the boat a little too much. Regardless, solid evidence is needed and thus far it seems to be lacking. I find it interesting to follow all the speculation though none of it really seems provable at this point.

George Chandler
08-21-2015, 12:35 AM
George, sound advice which appears to accord with Nigel McCarthy's chart. The DF21 lines that Nigel showed (and/or did not show, like the Ciannachta) could still be a good start. The DF21 parts if his chart lack equal development to the CTS4466 parts, but it could provide a start point.

What I struggle with though is that DF21 has been tacked onto so many other non-DF21 genealogies that I have never been sure where to start - the Eoganacht, Airghialla, Ciannachta, etc. Even a distinct and discrete genetic group like the Seven Septs of Laois has been split between the Laigin and Clanna Rory pedigrees, and are clearly not the only fabricated parts of those genealogies.

What I find fascinating is that there are so many legitimate arguments for many different unrelated lines. It's definitely one of the more interesting ancient family trees.

George

Rory Cain
08-22-2015, 01:01 AM
What I find fascinating is that there are so many legitimate arguments for many different unrelated lines. It's definitely one of the more interesting ancient family trees.

George

If I was a Curtin, Lydon or O'Loughlin with R-L1336, I'd be looking at the Cenel Corc, part of the Clanna Rory. It remains problematic that the Ciarraige and Conmaicne descended from Corc's alleged brothers Ciar and Cormac do not appear to be DF21+, but other alleged descendants of Rory Mor possibly are, including supposed descendants of Lughaidh Laois (the Seven Septs of Laois) and Soghan Salbhuidhe (the Six Soghans).

It's still a patchwork quilt like every other set of genealogies to which DF21+ Septs have been attached. But no more so than the Laighin pedigree; the Eoghanacht/ Dal gCas/ Ciannachta pedigree; the Ui Niall/ Ui Briuin/ Ui Fiachra/ Ui Maine/ Airghialla pedigree or others.

Baleiric
08-28-2015, 12:04 AM
Thank you sir. So I am of Irish decent not Scottish. Interesting and will take some adjusting. :)

Rory Cain
08-29-2015, 09:44 PM
Thank you sir. So I am of Irish decent not Scottish. Interesting and will take some adjusting. :)

I understand your surname to be Irish. Your descent may be more complex.

The O Cathain clan from Co Galway in the far west of Ireland have one of the oldest Irish surnames, so have been there a long time. Nonetheless my O Cathain Y-DNA points to links with the Strathclyde Britons. My DF21+ ancestors possibly helped M222+ Britons from Southern Scotland who now consider themselves Irish to establish themselves in Ireland, pushing out those Irish to went to the west Coast of Scotland and now consider themselves Scots. Many Highland surnames now appear in my maternal lines. The use of modern day nationalities does not truly capture the picture, I feel.

dhubsith
08-29-2015, 11:58 PM
Are the MC14+ Cameron's the Chiefly line? I couldn't tell from the Cameron DNA project results page where the biggest group are Ungrouped, mostly M269; and the next biggest group are Lochaber-Fort William DF13.


MC14 is NOT the chiefly line for the McFie/McPhee/McDuffie clan, they are L1335/L1065. The MC14 McPhees seem to be associated with the Camerons, some lived nearby them by Loch Arkaig. One question in my mind is the ancestry of Donald Duff Cameron of Lochiel, the 15th Chief. Does "Duff" connect him to the McPhees? (McDuffie is one variant). As for the DNA Results page for Cameron, McDuffie, et all, we are all mostly listed as DF13 or L21 or M269, MC14 is not on their tree. It's easy to spot the likely MC14s, with 15-15-15-16 at 464a-b-c-d. We seem to have split many centuries ago from the other MC14 cluster, who call themselves MacWho.

AtWhatCost
08-30-2015, 12:22 AM
MC14 is NOT the chiefly line for the McFie/McPhee/McDuffie clan, they are L1335/L1065. The MC14 McPhees seem to be associated with the Camerons, some lived nearby them by Loch Arkaig. One question in my mind is the ancestry of Donald Duff Cameron of Lochiel, the 15th Chief. Does "Duff" connect him to the McPhees? (McDuffie is one variant). As for the DNA Results page for Cameron, McDuffie, et all, we are all mostly listed as DF13 or L21 or M269, MC14 is not on their tree. It's easy to spot the likely MC14s, with 15-15-15-16 at 464a-b-c-d. We seem to have split many centuries ago from the other MC14 cluster, who call themselves MacWho.

Not to my eye, they aren't Mc Who, they are Cameron and appear to be the majority. Petty obvious from the project page.

dhubsith
08-30-2015, 01:33 AM
No, the Camerons are not MacWho, they are on the same branch as me, A2070, along with Yuill and Cubbon. The separation from the MacWho happened many centuries earlier.

AtWhatCost
08-30-2015, 11:06 PM
No, the Camerons are not MacWho, they are on the same branch as me, A2070, along with Yuill and Cubbon. The separation from the MacWho happened many centuries earlier.

I got you now, I misunderstood what I was reading apparently. Rory was asking if MC14 appeared to be the chiefly line for the Camerons but then you said it's not the chiefly line for the McPhee/McDuffies, that's what threw me a little. Thanks again.

Rory Cain
08-31-2015, 02:50 AM
MC14 is NOT the chiefly line for the McFie/McPhee/McDuffie clan, they are L1335/L1065. The MC14 McPhees seem to be associated with the Camerons...

I had not mentioned the McDuffie can, but now that you have, does this leave their alleged descent from Ailpin and membership of Siol Ailpin intact or in tatters? For instance, the Grants are supposedly Siol Ailpin too, but the Grant DNA project does not indicate their chiefs to be MC14.

Jon
08-31-2015, 12:00 PM
The Siol Alpin is mysterious one indeed. Lots of interesting new work - have you guys checked out Alex Woolf of St. Andrews Uni? His 'Pictland to Alba' is well worth a read, if heavy going. The question is whether Kenneth MacAlpin was indeed a Gael, as the Irish records suggest (descent from Dalriada), or if indeed he was Pictish by descent (the name of his father, Alpin, has been more or less accepted as a Pictish one, I believe). Either way, it doesn't much matter as he seems to have been culturally Gaelic (or Gaelicized), and was of course a key figure in uniting the Picts and the Scots on the road to forging the Scottish nation.

So DNA-wise I have no idea. Pictish would make sense I suppose for Siol Alpin. We have a fair few of these surnames in our L513-193 group, including some key early markers of the Duff surname. From early clusters suggesting a heavy south-western focus, L193 in particular has now been found in those with MDKAs in central Scotland/Highland Perthshire, right on the money for ancient Royal Scotland. It wouldn't surprise me, in addition to making me incredibly proud (!), if many of the followers at least of the Siol Alpin were L513/193; it seems so far to be very much Scotland-focused, and in the right areas as well.

I keep coming back to the old chestnut: what we really need is the testing of ancient remains...

Rory Cain
09-02-2015, 10:41 AM
... Pictish would make sense I suppose for Siol Alpin. We have a fair few of these surnames in our L513-193 group, including some key early markers of the Duff surname. From early clusters suggesting a heavy south-western focus, L193 in particular has now been found in those with MDKAs in central Scotland/Highland Perthshire, right on the money for ancient Royal Scotland. It wouldn't surprise me, in addition to making me incredibly proud (!), if many of the followers at least of the Siol Alpin were L513/193; it seems so far to be very much Scotland-focused, and in the right areas as well.

I keep coming back to the old chestnut: what we really need is the testing of ancient remains...

I have seen commercial DNA tests advertised as so-called "Pictish DNA" but I don't believe that anyone has actually identified the Pictish DNA, and therefore not the Pictish clans either, as identifying their DNA would be a necessary prerequisite, one would think. The Siol Alpin would not appear to help much, as the clans supposed to make up the Siol Alpin appear to have little commonality in their Y-DNA, except for those who have yet to discover SNP markers and remain stuck on the estimated haplogroup that FTDNA assigned them:
Grant chiefly line at FTDNA is P312 > DF19 > DF88.
McAlpine, the most commonly reported haplogroup on Ysearch is "unknown".
MacAulay, most common haplogroup at FTDNA is R-M269.
MacDuffie/ Macphie, possibly CTS6838.
MacGregor, possibly CTS6838.
Mackinnon, possibly PF5236.
MacNab, most common haplogroup at FTDNA is R-M269.
MacQuarrie, most common haplogroup at FTDNA is R-M269.

Based on that, I wouldn't be using Siol Alpine as evidence for anything much, except perhaps evidence of the widescale fabrication of pedigrees.

Jon
09-02-2015, 01:13 PM
Agreed Rory. And the more I read, the more confusion there seems to be in terms of strict delineations of pedigrees and lines, even in the scholarly literature. Even the very nature of some of these groups and kingdoms, e.g. Dalriada and Pictland, seems to be highly ambiguous with little reliable documentary evidence. In L193 the TMDCA has been pushed back recently; people carrying this marker would have been in Scotland, probably widespread, and present in several of these groups anyway from very early on.

Funnily enough, I have yet to meet a single person, either in the UK or the US, actually called MacAlpin...although there is a group attempting to reconstruct the clan (Siol Alpin), also using DNA. A pretty tall order I'd say :)

George Chandler
09-02-2015, 01:58 PM
Agreed Rory. And the more I read, the more confusion there seems to be in terms of strict delineations of pedigrees and lines, even in the scholarly literature. Even the very nature of some of these groups and kingdoms, e.g. Dalriada and Pictland, seems to be highly ambiguous with little reliable documentary evidence. In L193 the TMDCA has been pushed back recently; people carrying this marker would have been in Scotland, probably widespread, and present in several of these groups anyway from very early on.

Funnily enough, I have yet to meet a single person, either in the UK or the US, actually called MacAlpin...although there is a group attempting to reconstruct the clan (Siol Alpin), also using DNA. A pretty tall order I'd say :)

The surnames McAlpin and MacAlpine do exist but it's pretty rare in terms of it's variants and number. I find it fascinating how passionate people are about this group. There can be only one! LOL

George

George Chandler
09-02-2015, 02:13 PM
I have seen commercial DNA tests advertised as so-called "Pictish DNA" but I don't believe that anyone has actually identified the Pictish DNA, and therefore not the Pictish clans either, as identifying their DNA would be a necessary prerequisite, one would think. The Siol Alpin would not appear to help much, as the clans supposed to make up the Siol Alpin appear to have little commonality in their Y-DNA, except for those who have yet to discover SNP markers and remain stuck on the estimated haplogroup that FTDNA assigned them:
Grant chiefly line at FTDNA is P312 > DF19 > DF88.
McAlpine, the most commonly reported haplogroup on Ysearch is "unknown".
MacAulay, most common haplogroup at FTDNA is R-M269.
MacDuffie/ Macphie, possibly CTS6838.
MacGregor, possibly CTS6838.
Mackinnon, possibly PF5236.
MacNab, most common haplogroup at FTDNA is R-M269.
MacQuarrie, most common haplogroup at FTDNA is R-M269.

Based on that, I wouldn't be using Siol Alpine as evidence for anything much, except perhaps evidence of the widescale fabrication of pedigrees.

The fabrication of pedigrees (or broken lines) seems pretty common among different ancient lines of many different origins. Honestly I think much of it was tribal in terms of supposed history. So let's say a line claims to be descended from Lorne son of Erc it may be that they were part of the ancient tribe but not blood. There are lots of factors to take into account when trying to establish an ancient lineage. If the claimed lines of ancient descent are true they should converge at the same genetic point in terms of SNP's and the number of SNP's should be close to the time frame for the ancient common ancestor. The problem is that some people use unreliable SNP's which bounce back and forth..many don't take proven genealogy lines of the same surname and test them using Y Elite or Big Y so to determine the most recent SNP's. You can have five surnames who claim descent from an ancient figure but when you look at the SNP structure from those five names they only differ from 3 or 4 reliable SNP's so it doesn't really validate the claim of descent. The other factor to take into account is the coverage of the test and how many sequencing gaps there are. You can have a situation with only a couple of SNP's below one that is known to be 1600 years old and the reasons are sequencing gaps and removal of unreliable SNP's.

George

oneillabu
09-02-2015, 09:03 PM
The fabrication of pedigrees (or broken lines) seems pretty common among different ancient lines of many different origins. Honestly I think much of it was tribal in terms of supposed history. So let's say a line claims to be descended from Lorne son of Erc it may be that they were part of the ancient tribe but not blood. There are lots of factors to take into account when trying to establish an ancient lineage. If the claimed lines of ancient descent are true they should converge at the same genetic point in terms of SNP's and the number of SNP's should be close to the time frame for the ancient common ancestor. The problem is that some people use unreliable SNP's which bounce back and forth..many don't take proven genealogy lines of the same surname and test them using Y Elite or Big Y so to determine the most recent SNP's. You can have five surnames who claim descent from an ancient figure but when you look at the SNP structure from those five names they only differ from 3 or 4 reliable SNP's so it doesn't really validate the claim of descent. The other factor to take into account is the coverage of the test and how many sequencing gaps there are. You can have a situation with only a couple of SNP's below one that is known to be 1600 years old and the reasons are sequencing gaps and removal of unreliable SNP's.

George

I notice the way you completely ignored S7200 and its upstream S5488, if the majority of S5488 people upstream of S7200 were predominately French or German in origin you would no doubt be lauding this as absolute proof of a migration from Europe of S5488 to Scotland and Ireland however when the evidence clearly shows a migration from Ireland to Scotland in the time frame of the very real and verifiable Dal Riada migration you choose to completely ignore it even though according to the pedigrees the Dal Riada Irish origin is from the exact place that the bulk of the upstream S5488 people's surnames hail from.

The fact that such a large number of Lord of the Isles surnames and related septs and people hailing from the territories of the Lord of the Isles Hebridean territories such as Uist obviously seem to mean nothing to you not to mention L720 from which the vast bulk of surnames are matched to the 1450ms pedigrees from the Fergus Mor Mac Erc line, not forgetting the L720 Driscol from Cork who matches to these ancient Scottish people on key markers confirming their Irish origin.

According to Brian Lacey's excellant book St Columba was actually Dal Fiatach in origin and the pedigrees show that they were related to the Dal Riada so this is once again spot on here, also the O'Neill is a differant Irish L720 line matching to another O'Neill from around 600 years ago.

If we cannot accept the facts we see in front of us then there is absolutely no point in trying to solve any pedigrees, I have looked at M222 in depth and there is absolutely no way that any of the pedigrees from Niall can be matched to a verifiable line, I graphed the genetic distance of 38 people with the O'Neill surnameor variations of it and it looked like a mountain range however when you graph L720 at 67 markers you get a nice line within an acceptable plus or minus of around 2 which is what you would expect to get from a real common ancestor.

Regarding Pictish DNA, there is absolutely no way that the L1065 line is Dalriada because there are no Southern Irish matches so this is the only likely candidate for the Scottish Pictish signature that fits the profile required so I absolutely agree with this assumption.

George Chandler
09-02-2015, 11:58 PM
Oneillabu - I never mentioned any specific genetic claim to any group because right or wrong people are very passionate about their genetic claim to that ancestry. The evidence should speak for itself and doesn't need my help. I will leave each to decide on his/her own with the evidence available. If you feel you have it all figured out then I'm happy for you.

You wrote:"If we cannot accept the facts we see in front of us then there is absolutely no point in trying to solve pedigrees" Couldn't agree with you more on that statement :)

George

Rory Cain
09-03-2015, 08:39 PM
...In L193 the TMDCA has been pushed back recently; people carrying this marker would have been in Scotland, probably widespread, and present in several of these groups anyway from early on...

Jon, my impression of L513 is that it is spread right up the Atlantic Coast from Co Kerry to Co Donegal in Ireland, and continues that westerly trend in Galloway, Argyllshire & the Hebrides. I'm thinking that makes it very old, perhaps pushed west in Ireland by the arrival of later groups, and perhaps also pushed north into Scotland.

That Ireland to Scotland hypothesis, rather than vice versa, might be controversial, but L193 is younger than it's L513 ancestor and seems to have experienced a population explosion in Galloway. Previous estimates were that this occurred ca 400 AD. How much has that age estimate been pushed back now?

Jon
09-04-2015, 06:50 PM
I replied to the thread over on the L513 conversation. I believe L193 has now been taken back to around 1800 ybp, a huge change from before. But it's being hotly discussed right now. I'm sure the westerly thing probably correlates with Gaelic speakers in Scotland, although L513 as you rightly point out seems to be old.

Rory Cain
09-05-2015, 05:38 AM
... I guess the phrase "I was wrong" does not exist in your vocabulary.

Here's one I was wrong about- accepting that the MacCurtin sept of Corca Modhruadh is predominantly haplogroup J. While they probably are, looking at the numbers, a R-L1336 group of Corca Modruadh surnames have emerged including Curtin, Lydon and O'Loughlin. No O'Connor Corcomroe yet, the other leading sept.

This may make the Corca Modruadh section of Clanna Rory one of the less difficult sections of DF21 to plot SNPs against the traditional genealogy. Not sure if this helps oneillabu's cause, but felt I should set the record straight.

oneillabu
09-05-2015, 08:21 PM
Corca Modruadh surnames have emerged including Curtin, Lydon and O'Loughlin. No O'Connor Corcomroe yet, the other leading sept.


All of the following have clearly defined S5488 signatures including 5 O'Connor matches, I contacted the O'Connor project a few times about testing but received not reply, I guess the crumbling M222 Niall fairytale is producing an osterich type response, but this is simply delaying the inevitable because with more SNP results rolling in the truth will become undeniable eventually, I am currently breaking down the Clan Colla pedigrees with some very interesting results and I have to admit that for once I actually agree with O'Rahilly (and others) when he states that the Sons of Niall and the three Collas were one and the same.

O'Laughlin kit number 311927
Mc'Laughlin kit number 149586
O'Laughlin kit number 158243
Lydon kit number 204060
Lydon kit number 65840
Lydon kit number 270947
Lydon kit number 204060
O'Connor kit number 178768
O'Connor kit number 193578
O'Connor kit number 155422
O'Connor kit number A-3
O'Connor kit number 88535

Rory Cain
09-06-2015, 06:57 AM
All of the following have clearly defined S5488 signatures including 5 O'Connor matches, I contacted the O'Connor project a few times about testing but received not reply...

O'Laughlin kit number 311927
Mc'Laughlin kit number 149586
O'Laughlin kit number 158243
Lydon kit number 204060
Lydon kit number 65840
Lydon kit number 270947
Lydon kit number 204060
O'Connor kit number 178768
O'Connor kit number 193578
O'Connor kit number 155422
O'Connor kit number A-3
O'Connor kit number 88535

Excellent work. The O'Connor entries may close the gap, as O'Connor Corcomroe is considered the leading sept and I was aware some of their traditional kin from the Curtin, Lydon and O'Loughlin Septs being DF21 > S5488 > L1336+.

We would need to get more SNPs than just L1336 onto the Y-tree, and the Corcomroe Septs would appear a reasonable chance to match SNPs to the traditional genealogy, as Nigel McCarthy did for CTS4466, and to a lesser extent, P314.2

Beyond that project it gets harder as many other branches of Clanna Rory are not DF21+. However several of the Seven Septs of Laois are, another branch of the Clanna Rory. Also some folks with surnames that may come from the Six Soghans, another Clanna Rory branch.

oneillabu
09-06-2015, 07:54 PM
Excellent work. The O'Connor entries may close the gap, as O'Connor Corcomroe is considered the leading sept and I was aware some of their traditional kin from the Curtin, Lydon and O'Loughlin Septs being DF21 > S5488 > L1336+.

We would need to get more SNPs than just L1336 onto the Y-tree, and the Corcomroe Septs would appear a reasonable chance to match SNPs to the traditional genealogy, as Nigel McCarthy did for CTS4466, and to a lesser extent, P314.2

Beyond that project it gets harder as many other branches of Clanna Rory are not DF21+. However several of the Seven Septs of Laois are, another branch of the Clanna Rory. Also some folks with surnames that may come from the Six Soghans, another Clanna Rory branch.

Matching this cluster I also have the following

Ferrall kit number 176224
Ferrall kit number 91040
Ferrall kit number 319357
Gilgunn (Mac Giolla Gunna) N4964
MacGeraghty YSEARCH EW4AE

Ferrall is a variation of Farrell who are Clanna Rory
Gilgunn or Mac Giolla Gunna is a name used by the O'Connors of Connaught
MacGeraghty are given as the same stock as the O'Connors of Connaught

Of course at least one of the above must be tested before jumping to conclusions but the pattern here is obvious

Rory Cain
09-06-2015, 08:55 PM
Matching this cluster I also have the following

Ferrall kit number 176224
Ferrall kit number 91040
Ferrall kit number 319357
Gilgunn (Mac Giolla Gunna) N4964
MacGeraghty YSEARCH EW4AE

Ferrall is a variation of Farrell who are Clanna Rory
Gilgunn or Mac Giolla Gunna is a name used by the O'Connors of Connaught
MacGeraghty are given as the same stock as the O'Connors of Connaught

Of course at least one of the above must be tested before jumping to conclusions but the pattern here is obvious

Brian de Breffney gives Gilgunn as originally Mac Giolla Duinn, associated with Co Leitrim in what was once Breifne. I'm assuming that de Breffney would know the surnames of his ancestral territory well enough. However not to dwell on a singleton. And Co Leitrim is close to Co Longford, where your list of Ferralls is persuasive. If confirmed DF21+, they would close what was a gap in the the DF21 section of Clanna Rory until you produced them.

If the Connors of Corcomroe and the Ferralls are DF21 > L1336, that would make much of Clanna Rory DF21+ with:

Clan Corc or Corcomroe Septs O'Connor Corcomroe, Curtin, Lydon and O'Loughlin descended from Corc Dosethe mac Fergus Mor mac Rossa Rua mac Rory Mor;

Conmaicne sept O'Farrell or Ferrall descended from Cormac, brother of Corc Dosethe;

Ciarraige Septs descended from Ciar, brother of Corc and Cormac not yet in the DF21 picture, so there's a gap;

Several of the DF21>>DF5 Seven Septs of Laois have a Clanna Rory pedigree, contradicting the Laigin pedigree of others. O'Lalor & O'More
Claim descent from Lugaidh Laois, son of Conall Cearnach, who was also ancestor of Soghain Salbhuidhe, ancestor of the Soghan Septs which include Lennon, Mannion and Ward. Some singleton DF21s with those names. Conall Cearnach's earlier ancestor was Cionga, brother to Rossa Rua.

To add some riders, other Clanna Rory branches appear not to be DF21. Other people with the same surnames as above are often not DF21 either. And not all of DF21 are Clanna Rory.

Despite that, we do have quite a number of Clanna Rory surnames emerging within DF21+. The main problem is that so few have tested down to their terminal SNP. Were they to do so, it may be that we would have enough of the Clanna Rory within DF21 to map the DF21 y-tree against the Clanna Rory pedigree.

I don't know how this accords with your thoughts but it takes my thinking in a new direction. I am curious to see where this leads.

George Chandler
09-06-2015, 09:22 PM
Matching this cluster I also have the following

Ferrall kit number 176224
Ferrall kit number 91040
Ferrall kit number 319357
Gilgunn (Mac Giolla Gunna) N4964
MacGeraghty YSEARCH EW4AE

Ferrall is a variation of Farrell who are Clanna Rory
Gilgunn or Mac Giolla Gunna is a name used by the O'Connors of Connaught
MacGeraghty are given as the same stock as the O'Connors of Connaught

Of course at least one of the above must be tested before jumping to conclusions but the pattern here is obvious

If you believe that the Ulaid genealogy was truly DF21 (if I'm understanding you correctly) then state your case not by just listing kit numbers and names. Take the Big Y, Full Genomes and YSEQ data and lay them out side by side so we can see. Remove the unreliable SNP's and have the reliable ones verified a second time through FTDNA, YSEQ etc. Show the genealogy comparison of the different lines you suspect to be from whatever ancestral person you suspect and show which SNP's differ using those different genealogical lines. Don't just show the "highlight SNP's" but "all" of the validated ones. Identify which testing procedure was used from what company.

George

Rory Cain
09-07-2015, 02:02 AM
If you believe that the Ulaid genealogy was truly DF21 (if I'm understanding you correctly) then state your case not by just listing kit numbers and names. Take the Big Y, Full Genomes and YSEQ data and lay them out side by side so we can see. Remove the unreliable SNP's and have the reliable ones verified a second time through FTDNA, YSEQ etc. Show the genealogy comparison of the different lines you suspect to be from whatever ancestral person you suspect and show which SNP's differ using those different genealogical lines. Don't just show the "highlight SNP's" but "all" of the validated ones. Identify which testing procedure was used from what company.
George

George, your suggestions are valid. However the R-L1336 group simply have not done that level of testing. But its a valid exercise to conduct a brief audit so you can see what we have and what we don't have. Eric Maher originally had L1336 divided into DYS617=12 & DYS617=13. If individuals did any SNP testing at all, they tested for L1336. L1337 was considered to be parallel with L1336 and so individuals did not test for it. As a result of NGS, we have split this group as follows:

DF21 > S5488 > FGC11358, Z17568 (pre- R-L1336):
332874 Taylor, England, Big Y

DF21 > S5488 > FGC11358, Z17568 > L1336, DYS617=12
N3362/ 11R9D Maher, Co Clare, R-L1336, Y Elite
292794 Cunningham, Ireland, R-L1336, Big Y
65840 Lydon, Ireland, R-DF21 Sanger
204060 Lydon, Ireland, R-M269 (estimated)
270497 Lyden, Ireland, R-M269 (estimated)
136992 Conner, Ireland, R-M269 (estimated)
123195 Kean, Co Galway, R-L1336 Sanger
144806 Roork, Ireland, R-L1336 Sanger
259097 Harmon, unknown, R-L1336 Sanger
293623 Fitzgibbon, Ireland, R-L1336 sanger
339000 Flanagan, Ireland, R-L1336 Sanger
44513 King, Co Galway, R-L1336 Sanger
72920 Lynch, Ireland, R-L1336 Sanger
N105692 O'Rourke, Ireland, R-L1336 Sanger
N11243 Maher, Co Clare, R-L1336 Geno 2.0
N17039 Mongan, R-L1336, Sanger
N82445 Meade, R-L1336 Big Y
diverse other surnames with west of Ireland trend R-M269 (estimated)

DF21 > S5488 > FGC11358, Z17568 > L1336 > L1337, DYS617=12
210550 Cullen, Ireland, R-L1337, Big Y
76306 Moore, unknown, R-L1336, Sanger
358576 Moore, unknown, R-L1337, Sanger
120616 Moore, Ireland, R-L1337 Walk The Y, A932- Sanger
N126262 Conlin, Ireland, R-DF21, Geno 2.0

DF21 > S5488 > FGC11358, Z17568 > L1336 > L1337, DYS617=13
149586 McLoughlin, Ireland (matches O'Loughlins), R-L1337, A932- Sanger
diverse other surnames with west of Ireland trend R-M269 (estimated)

DF21 > S5488 > FGC11358, Z17568 > L1336 > L1337 > A932, DYS617=13
70983 Williams, unknown, R-A932 Big Y
91126 Doyle, unknown, R-A932 Big Y

While we at least have a start, clearly it is far less than we would like, with-
- no Curtins, a Corcomroe sept, represented or tested for SNPs although they match the genotype;
- a general lack of SNP testing amongst the other Corcomroe septs too, particularly Conner & Lydon. Fortunately 149586 McLoughlin may well now position the O'Loughlins on the Y-tree.
- what SNP testing has been done is mostly DF21 and/ or L1336, if indeed that much, and very little downstream from L1336.
- group emails to the L1336 group advising that their terminal SNP may be L1337 or A932 drew little response from those L1336+ folks in the R-DF21 Project or from other relevant surnames projects such as the Curtin members, although their admin replied.

I cannot speak for oneillabu, but I am staying away from the hot potato of whatever the Ulaid might be or might not be. In the septs of O'Connor, Curtin, Lydon and O'Loughlin represented within R-L1336, there appears to be a prima facie case that we have what may prove to be the Corcomroe, whose traditional genealogy rightly or wrongly makes them a section of the Clanna Rory. The Corcomroe is one bridge to cross. The above audit shows we have further to go. The Clanna Rory would be one bridge further. There is some support for the Clanna Rory possibility in that other surnames associated with the Loighois or Seven Septs of Laois and the Six Soghains also have members who are DF21+, although different subclades such as L1402 and possibly some L130 and I wouldn't exclude the possibility of other DF21 subclades as well. It remains to be seen whether the SNP convergence dates match the probable dates of branches of the pedigree. I simply cant provide that until more of these folks that discover SNP markers exist, and not just STRs. Then they need the intellectual interest plus the $$$ to do NGS testing. You may have noticed above how I still have t repy on Erik's DYS617=12 vs DYS617=13 split, due to lack of SNP testing. It is what it is, I'm afraid. But I believe it shows some deal of promise.

George Chandler
09-07-2015, 05:12 AM
It will be interesting to see what you come up with Rory as the level of testing increases. What's the latest STR age estimate for L1336 if you don't have a larger sample size for SNP's?

Do you ever hear from Erik M? He sort of just dropped off the radar a few years ago.

George

Rory Cain
09-07-2015, 07:12 AM
It will be interesting to see what you come up with Rory as the level of testing increases. What's the latest STR age estimate for L1336 if you don't have a larger sample size for SNP's?

Do you ever hear from Erik M? He sort of just dropped off the radar a few years ago.

George

To use Erik's results as a guide, he has GDs with other L1336 folks of up to 14 & Y67, so say 1400 ybp or perhaps more for L1336's age. That takes it into pre-surnames times which is consistent with the great spread of surnames we are seeing. I think Erik just went in very hard very fast and burned out. He remained in contact for a short while after David Reynolds went off-screen, and tried to handle the workload David had been shouldering. He sounded burned out when I last heard from him. A great loss. Erik was possibly the greatest recruiter of all time.

Rory

Dubhthach
09-08-2015, 02:32 PM
Ferrall (176224), just got a BigY result. He is R1b-FGC11134* (CTS4466- and L96-)
Gilgun (N4964) is DF21-, has ordered M343 bundle test

I could be wrong but FGC11134 is on the bundle test, so as he has a GD of 5 from Ferrall (at 67 markers) good chance he might also be R1b-FGC11134*

Rory Cain
09-08-2015, 08:04 PM
Ferrall (176224), just got a BigY result. He is R1b-FGC11134* (CTS4466- and L96-)
Gilgun (N4964) is DF21-, has ordered M343 bundle test

I could be wrong but FGC11134 is on the bundle test, so as he has a GD of 5 from Ferrall (at 67 markers) good chance he might also be R1b-FGC11134*

Thanks Paul
I had looked at the Conmaicne Septs including O'Farrell and MacRannall for DF21s and had drawn a blank so was a little stunned when oneillabu found some. With other matters to attend to, my due diligence only got as far as discovering the three Ferrals all descend from one man, an American, no recorded Irish ancestor or origin, and are a very minor subgroup of the Farrell Project.That dampened my initial enthusiasm. You've now hosed it right down! But thanks. I needed a cold shower.

I would not be greatly perturbed if there is no DF21 amongst the Conmaicne as I had previously concluded that anyway. The block of Corcomroe clans with DF21 remains unaffected. So too the Loigis DF21 Septs. Oneillabu may well have more luck next time.

oneillabu
09-08-2015, 09:58 PM
I recieved confirmation from Kim Ferrall who has just recieved her Big Y results that James Ferrall is indeed R-FGC11134 (CTS4466- and L96-), and also Gillgunn tested DF21 negative which just shows how tricky SNP prediction based on STR patterns is, Gillgunn even had a 413b value of 25 which seemed to indicate a mutation from the S5488 value of 24, the cluster matched really well on some key markers and the 464c value of 15 seemed to indicate a mutation down from the S5488 value of 16, there is another Farrell kit number 134599 who seems different from this cluster that is negative and is definitely worth testing, apart from him I have nothing else in my database. Not being a project admin I do not have access to SNP results all I can do is email people regarding testing and if they have already hope they email back like Gillguann and Ferrall did in this case.

oneillabu
09-08-2015, 10:06 PM
I recieved confirmation from Kim Ferrall who has just recieved her Big Y results that James Ferrall is indeed R-FGC11134 (CTS4466- and L96-), and also Gillgunn tested DF21 negative which just shows how tricky SNP prediction based on STR patterns is, Gillgunn even had a 413b value of 25 which seemed to indicate a mutation from the S5488 value of 24, the cluster matched really well on some key markers and the 464c value of 15 seemed to indicate a mutation down from the S5488 value of 16, there is another Farrell kit number 134599 who seems different from this cluster that is negative and is definitely worth testing, apart from him I have nothing else in my database. Not being a project admin I do not have access to SNP results all I can do is email people regarding testing and if they have already hope they email back like Gillguann and Ferrall did in this case.

The Farrell 134599 is actually R-Z253 so disregard the previous post, maybe it is time to give up on the Farrell connection for now and see if some of the O'Connor will test

oneillabu
09-08-2015, 11:01 PM
George, your suggestions are valid. However the R-L1336 group simply have not done that level of testing. But its a valid exercise to conduct a brief audit so you can see what we have and what we don't have. Eric Maher originally had L1336 divided into DYS617=12 & DYS617=13. If individuals did any SNP testing at all, they tested for L1336. L1337 was considered to be parallel with L1336 and so individuals did not test for it. As a result of NGS, we have split this group as follows:

DF21 > S5488 > FGC11358, Z17568 (pre- R-L1336):
332874 Taylor, England, Big Y

DF21 > S5488 > FGC11358, Z17568 > L1336, DYS617=12
N3362/ 11R9D Maher, Co Clare, R-L1336, Y Elite
292794 Cunningham, Ireland, R-L1336, Big Y
65840 Lydon, Ireland, R-DF21 Sanger
204060 Lydon, Ireland, R-M269 (estimated)
270497 Lyden, Ireland, R-M269 (estimated)
136992 Conner, Ireland, R-M269 (estimated)
123195 Kean, Co Galway, R-L1336 Sanger
144806 Roork, Ireland, R-L1336 Sanger
259097 Harmon, unknown, R-L1336 Sanger
293623 Fitzgibbon, Ireland, R-L1336 sanger
339000 Flanagan, Ireland, R-L1336 Sanger
44513 King, Co Galway, R-L1336 Sanger
72920 Lynch, Ireland, R-L1336 Sanger
N105692 O'Rourke, Ireland, R-L1336 Sanger
N11243 Maher, Co Clare, R-L1336 Geno 2.0
N17039 Mongan, R-L1336, Sanger
N82445 Meade, R-L1336 Big Y
diverse other surnames with west of Ireland trend R-M269 (estimated)

DF21 > S5488 > FGC11358, Z17568 > L1336 > L1337, DYS617=12
210550 Cullen, Ireland, R-L1337, Big Y
76306 Moore, unknown, R-L1336, Sanger
358576 Moore, unknown, R-L1337, Sanger
120616 Moore, Ireland, R-L1337 Walk The Y, A932- Sanger
N126262 Conlin, Ireland, R-DF21, Geno 2.0

DF21 > S5488 > FGC11358, Z17568 > L1336 > L1337, DYS617=13
149586 McLoughlin, Ireland (matches O'Loughlins), R-L1337, A932- Sanger
diverse other surnames with west of Ireland trend R-M269 (estimated)

DF21 > S5488 > FGC11358, Z17568 > L1336 > L1337 > A932, DYS617=13
70983 Williams, unknown, R-A932 Big Y
91126 Doyle, unknown, R-A932 Big Y

While we at least have a start, clearly it is far less than we would like, with-
- no Curtins, a Corcomroe sept, represented or tested for SNPs although they match the genotype;
- a general lack of SNP testing amongst the other Corcomroe septs too, particularly Conner & Lydon. Fortunately 149586 McLoughlin may well now position the O'Loughlins on the Y-tree.
- what SNP testing has been done is mostly DF21 and/ or L1336, if indeed that much, and very little downstream from L1336.
- group emails to the L1336 group advising that their terminal SNP may be L1337 or A932 drew little response from those L1336+ folks in the R-DF21 Project or from other relevant surnames projects such as the Curtin members, although their admin replied.

I cannot speak for oneillabu, but I am staying away from the hot potato of whatever the Ulaid might be or might not be. In the septs of O'Connor, Curtin, Lydon and O'Loughlin represented within R-L1336, there appears to be a prima facie case that we have what may prove to be the Corcomroe, whose traditional genealogy rightly or wrongly makes them a section of the Clanna Rory. The Corcomroe is one bridge to cross. The above audit shows we have further to go. The Clanna Rory would be one bridge further. There is some support for the Clanna Rory possibility in that other surnames associated with the Loighois or Seven Septs of Laois and the Six Soghains also have members who are DF21+, although different subclades such as L1402 and possibly some L130 and I wouldn't exclude the possibility of other DF21 subclades as well. It remains to be seen whether the SNP convergence dates match the probable dates of branches of the pedigree. I simply cant provide that until more of these folks that discover SNP markers exist, and not just STRs. Then they need the intellectual interest plus the $$$ to do NGS testing. You may have noticed above how I still have t repy on Erik's DYS617=12 vs DYS617=13 split, due to lack of SNP testing. It is what it is, I'm afraid. But I believe it shows some deal of promise.

There is another person with the Neilan variation of the O'Neill surname in YSearch (UPH78) who not only matches the O'Connor cluster but also to the McLaughlin /O'Laughlin and also to a Doyle, now Cathal Craobh Dearg O'Connor King of Ireland in 1224 had a Son Hugh Dall whose name was Anglicised to Doyle, unfortunately the O'Connor cluster have only all tested to 37 markers however this indications are that the match between O'Connor and Doyle is around the 800 year time frame.

Now as you know my own markers match to another O'Neill with a GD of 6 at 67 markers who uses the Neilan variation, this indicates that the DYS391 value of 11 for the O'Laughlins and Doyle are a recent enough mutation and that the 391 value of 10 shared by the O'Connor and O'Neill clusters is the original value.

All of this poses the question, were the original Kings of Connaught DF21 and if so then their relationship to the O'Neill's through Niall is very real and as I have previously stated, I believe that the Ui Niallain of brilliant fame who was the Son of the King of the Cool lakes who was given Nine hostages is the source of the real Nine of the Nine hostages and he was from Connaught

MacEochaidh
09-09-2015, 12:07 AM
The Farrell 134599 is actually R-Z253 so disregard the previous post, maybe it is time to give up on the Farrell connection for now and see if some of the O'Connor will test

Hello oneillabu!

I hear you're the man to ask about DF23* and its connection with the Chieftains of Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. I am Z2961- and just hanging out there with two other Doherty matches, 66/67 and 64/67.

Any guesses?

oneillabu
09-09-2015, 07:24 PM
Hello oneillabu!

I hear you're the man to ask about DF23* and its connection with the Chieftains of Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. I am Z2961- and just hanging out there with two other Doherty matches, 66/67 and 64/67.

Any guesses?

Well my guess is (and I emphasise guess) is that given the number of Welsh and French matches that we are probably looking at Brythonic Celts with the French element being part of the Breton migration, we also see this in the Z2961+ people with the Welsh Norman surnames. This is also true for the early M222 with surnames like Dalton having the greatest spread in off modal markers, the old territory of the Daltons is in the Strathclyde Briton territory.

So how and when did they arrive in Ireland, well I see this in two phases, the earlier phase being around the 8th century and is linked to the Brythonic Strathclyde Britons who formed ties through marriage with the Cineal Eoghain which ultimately resulted in the defeat of their bitter enemies the Cineal Conall therefore ending the centuries old domination of the Cineal Conall and this would have resulted in the planting of M222 and DF23 in their old territories resulting in the Doherty and other Ui Neill surname matches to these areas and also to these names matching to many Welsh surnames.

These newcomers were hastily written into the Irish pedigrees by Religious scribes resulting in the later false Niall pedigrees. It is possible that the war between the Cineal Conall and Cineal Eoghain was also a Religious conflict between the Celtic Church (Cineal Conall) and the newer Roman Church of which the Strathclyde Britons would have been a part of which may explain the alliance between them and the Cineal Eogahain.

The next phase of DF23 and M222 was the arrival of the Normans many of which many were Welsh Celts which once again would have spread DF23 and M222 throughout Ireland and would possibly account for the fact that with M222 so many unrelated surnames match each other within the timeframe of surnames

Well that is my theory so I hope this is of some help to you

Rory Cain
09-09-2015, 08:38 PM
There is another person with the Neilan variation of the O'Neill surname in YSearch (UPH78) who not only matches the O'Connor cluster but also to the McLaughlin /O'Laughlin and also to a Doyle, now Cathal Craobh Dearg O'Connor King of Ireland in 1224 had a Son Hugh Dall whose name was Anglicised to Doyle, unfortunately the O'Connor cluster have only all tested to 37 markers however this indications are that the match between O'Connor and Doyle is around the 800 year time frame.

Now as you know my own markers match to another O'Neill with a GD of 6 at 67 markers who uses the Neilan variation, this indicates that the DYS391 value of 11 for the O'Laughlins and Doyle are a recent enough mutation and that the 391 value of 10 shared by the O'Connor and O'Neill clusters is the original value.

All of this poses the question, were the original Kings of Connaught DF21 and if so then their relationship to the O'Neill's through Niall is very real and as I have previously stated, I believe that the Ui Niallain of brilliant fame who was the Son of the King of the Cool lakes who was given Nine hostages is the source of the real Nine of the Nine hostages and he was from Connaught

The Eoghanacht study a few years ago found that even in surnames with a single source, like Ryan and Sullivan, only about 50% still bear the Y-DNA of the original founder. DNA from surnames like O'Connor and Kelly (and O'Cathain too) that have multiple sources are therefore even more difficult to interpret correctly.

Given the presence of Corcomroe Septs including Curtin, Lydon and O'Loighlin amongst R-L1336, one might reasonably expect that their kin the O'Connors of Corcomroe would also have some L1336. And as the Corcomroe ancestor Corc was brother to the Ciarraige ancestor Ciar then I suppose we should not discount the possibility of O'Connor Kerry also being L1336. One could go further and speculate that with other septs of the Ciannachta being R-DF21, perhaps O'Connor of Ciannachta in Co Derry could be R-DF21 also, although I would not expect them to be the R-L1336 branch.

That makes three O'Connor Septs who should be in the potential L1336 queue ahead of the most well known O'Connor sept, now known as O'Connor Don, and who I understand the O'Connor project found to be R-M222.

The O'Connor Don's ancestor Briuin was brother to Fiachra. I could well be wrong about this but both the Ui Briuin and the Ui Fiachra appear to me to be overwhelmingly R-M222. Exceptions are the O'Beirne sept of Roscommon, supposedly Ui Briuin; and the O'Cathain and O'Mochain Septs,supposedly Ui Fiachra. One would have to suspect that those genealogies were something more akin to a declaration d'noblesse from the ruling dynasty for their faithful R-DF21 allies.

That's not to deny the O'Neillan matches at all. Like the Corcomroe Septs, O'Neillan traditional territory is in Co Clare, although Tradree is South Clare and Corcomror is North Clare. There was another Tradree at Durrus in South Galway bordering north Clare. It was named Tradraige Dubh-Ros to distinguish it from Tradree in Clare. Tradraige Dubh-Ros appears after the Connachta lost the southern Tradree and indeed all of Clare to Lughaidh Meann Ca 400 AD. We might expect one day to see some DNA evidence of the Tradraige. In both locations. Maybe that's what we are seeing here. I don't know yet.

oneillabu
09-09-2015, 10:32 PM
O'Connor Don, and who I understand the O'Connor project found to be R-M222.

The O'Connor Don's ancestor Briuin was brother to Fiachra. I could well be wrong about this but both the Ui Briuin and the Ui Fiachra appear to me to be overwhelmingly R-M222.

Before you jump to conclusions look at the GD and the people that they match too because this is what determines the origin, my research indicates that the Ui Maine are actually DF21 so where does that leave the M222 O'Connor Don, well the strongest match on all off model markers is actually a Morrison with a GD of 7 at 67 and the Irish name Morrison is associated with Donegal which is the M222 hotspot, there is an O'Neill match with a GD of 14 at 67 which is too far out to match the pedigrees. Once again we find a likely Welsh match to this cluster with Maddox (150580) who looks like the most likely originator of this group, other matches are Hoy, Traynor, Darcy, Kearon, Hannon, Reid, Duncan, Wingo, Bookout, George, Graham, Boggan, Dalton, Crossgrove Now these do not indicate the O'Connor Kings of Connaught to me but I am open to correction.

Rory Cain
09-10-2015, 12:51 AM
Before you jump to conclusions ....

OK, but if you notice, I haven't jumped to any conclusions at all, except that there are other O'Connors who appear to be stronger DF21+ candidates. I prefer to avoid drawing conclusions about the "mainliners" if I may call them that, because too many people of different clades tend to attach themselves to the mainliners. While they can't all be right, any conclusion at all is going to upset someone.

I feel far more comfortable with the small, neglected Septs. O'Connor Corcomroe may be one of those. Several of the O'Connors you listed previously are in the O'Connor project as a "Thomas O'Connor -County Kerry" group, which holds out the tantalising prospect that the O'Connor project had identified the O'Connor Kerry DNA signature.

However I am with you, that these guys have the L1337 signature. A-3 O'Connor of Kerry is GD=0/37 with KRKK5 and Q8FM4 O'Connor of Co Clare on Ysearch and GD of 4/37 with Conner L1337 in the R-DF21 project. So what the O'Connor projects thinks are the O'Connors of Kerry are more likely the O'Connors of Corcomroe, as you pointed put in your earlier post.

That would fit with the O'Connor Corcomroe genealogy making them kin to Curtin, Lydon and O'Loughlin. If I may be allowed just one conclusion, It may be that you have already successfully identified the DF21 O'Connors as the O'Connors of Corcomroe.

MCQ
09-27-2015, 08:46 PM
That is correct RGM. There is no Lord of Islay now.Clan Eion Mhoir of Clan Donald South now McDonald of Antrim is the lineage .I know having been a officer of Clan Donald that a number of years we had a imposter trying to say he was chief of Clann Eion Mhoir and was setting up at highland games.Over the years I have seen many,many wantabees.If in doubt contact the Clan Donald project manager.
I guess I could call myself Lord of Kintyre since my people came from there. Saus Alba,McQ

oneillabu
10-03-2015, 09:54 PM
For Sale, one broken chariot, this chariot has no wheels thanks to Australia's Bernard Foley (now there is a good Irish surname) no reasonable offer refused, payment please in Cans of Foster or any other suitable tinnies for the purpose of celebrating this historical achievment.

G'day Cobbers

Rory Cain
10-04-2015, 11:30 AM
For Sale, one broken chariot, this chariot has no wheels thanks to Australia's Bernard Foley (now there is a good Irish surname) no reasonable offer refused, payment please in Cans of Foster or any other suitable tinnies for the purpose of celebrating this historical achievment.

G'day Cobbers
Fosters? Only foreigners drink that stuff. Queenslanders wouldn't give a XXXX for it. But Bernard Foley being from The Harbour City most likely drinks Tooheys (another good Irish name). Foley did well in his warm-up against England, but the great rugby teams are all in the Southern Hemisphere where The Wallabies will need Foley at his best against the All Blacks. But thanks for the warm-up, England. Very sporting of you chaps, what!

Jon
10-04-2015, 03:30 PM
Now we just need those borders L193 boys in the Scottish team to do their stuff against Samoa and all will be well in L21-land :)

Rory Cain
10-04-2015, 09:43 PM
That is correct RGM. There is no Lord of Islay now.Clan Eion Mhoir of Clan Donald South now McDonald of Antrim is the lineage .I know having been a officer of Clan Donald that a number of years we had a imposter trying to say he was chief of Clann Eion Mhoir and was setting up at highland games.Over the years I have seen many,many wantabees.If in doubt contact the Clan Donald project manager.
I guess I could call myself Lord of Kintyre since my people came from there. Saus Alba,McQ

The Clan Donald project has some DF21+ members but I don't see the Macdonald/Moore/Via group which includes The Lord Macdonald of Islay claimant. The Clan Donald DNA Project's DF21+ membership is restricted largely to the S971 sub-clade with Null DYS425. A clearly unrelated L627 Montgomery is also lumped in with the S971. It may be that the project staff are unaware that DF21 splits into Subclades S971 (Airghialla or Clan Colla) FGC3213 (Little Scots Cluster, which would include a few Macdonalds, one would think), FGC3903 (which includes the L627 Montogmery, and the L1403 Macdonald/Moore/Via group).

I don't dispute McQ's statement about about the chiefly line. I acknowledged earlier on this thread that the Macdonald chiefs are mostly R1a. But it is also understood that Antrim, who now represents the Lords on Dunyveg on Islay descends through the female line. He may not be R1a. Then we have the Lord MacAllan Islay claimant, who is DF21. Not sure the Clan Donald project provides all the answers, just some.

J Man
10-09-2015, 09:55 PM
Here's one I was wrong about- accepting that the MacCurtin sept of Corca Modhruadh is predominantly haplogroup J. While they probably are, looking at the numbers, a R-L1336 group of Corca Modruadh surnames have emerged including Curtin, Lydon and O'Loughlin. No O'Connor Corcomroe yet, the other leading sept.

This may make the Corca Modruadh section of Clanna Rory one of the less difficult sections of DF21 to plot SNPs against the traditional genealogy. Not sure if this helps oneillabu's cause, but felt I should set the record straight.

You must be talking about the J2-M172 Curtins from this project correct?

https://sites.google.com/site/curtinclan/dna-project

Rory Cain
10-10-2015, 08:21 PM
You must be talking about the J2-M172 Curtins from this project correct?

https://sites.google.com/site/curtinclan/dna-project

Both. Them and the R-L1336. At first glance, the numerical dominance of J-M172 in the Curtins made it look like they are the main stem if the clan.

But the ones who match other Corcumroe Septs are the R-L1336, who share that SNP with Matches named O'Connor (leading sept of Corcomroe), Lydan and O'Loughlin.

Mag Uidhir 6
10-30-2015, 12:43 AM
Whew....just re-read this entire thread.
Holy mackerel.
Thought I had something to contribute but for clarity's sake, believe I'll hold off until I chart the SNPs/Surnames/ test matrix.
Suffice to say, still awaiting a half dozen L513 SNP Pack returns and another BigY or two, BUT I'm feeling a tad bit more confident of tracing the tree back to the 10th century with likely SNP branching assigned to pedigree branches.

Work in progress for L513-A2 (aka Airgialla II)

Brad

Mag Uidhir 6
11-06-2015, 01:04 AM
OK....here goes.....

I started this little thing a few days ago but I wasn't comfortable with my "ages" (still ain't). However, today I logged into YFull to discover two kits in the A2 group have had their results analyzed. That's a good start!

Even better, it roughly mirrors my estimates....sorta.

6551

I'm polling NGS testers to see if anymore would like to go the YFull route.

Here's the data that I'm looking at, plus all of MikeWWW's awesome stuff.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=515&star=false
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S5668/

Rory Cain
11-10-2015, 08:38 PM
OK....here goes.....

I started this little thing a few days ago but I wasn't comfortable with my "ages" (still ain't). However, today I logged into YFull to discover two kits in the A2 group have had their results analyzed. That's a good start!

Even better, it roughly mirrors my estimates....sorta.

6551

I'm polling NGS testers to see if anymore would like to go the YFull route.

Here's the data that I'm looking at, plus all of MikeWWW's awesome stuff.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=515&star=false
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S5668/

An interesting piece of the puzzle comes together. The Airghialla tend to be DF21 in Eastern regions and L513 in Fermanagh. This shapes some of the L513 in a match with the traditional genealogies. Nice work.

Jon
11-11-2015, 09:09 AM
Great stuff guys. I heard some more info on L513 from my uncle who tested with SDNA...apparantly in their stats L513 (specifically L193) is highest in Hebrides and Perthshire, as well as the classic areas of Argyll and Ayrshire. So it looks like L513, wherever it pops up, is pretty western/coastal. Interesting indeed. Perthshire might of course be a Pictish element, or maybe the migration of western groups into Pictland when the Kindgom of Alba was first formed. Man, what I would give to see the Y-DNA results of Kenneth MacAlpin ;)

Dubhthach
11-11-2015, 11:30 AM
An interesting piece of the puzzle comes together. The Airghialla tend to be DF21 in Eastern regions and L513 in Fermanagh. This shapes some of the L513 in a match with the traditional genealogies. Nice work.

Which makes me think that's case of politics matching geography from later medieval period onwards. eg. the expansion of Maguire power in Fermanagh is only from the 13th century onwards. By which stage they were basically a seperate lordship from traditional "King of Oirghialla" which was basically restricted to Monaghan and McMahon's (right down to Elizabeathan period)

Jon
11-11-2015, 01:20 PM
Could the Cruithin be a possible answer to some of this? I was pretty surprised when I found out about the Perthshire/Hebrides numbers for L193, which does tend to suggest ancient Scottish (Pictish?) lineages. Also, as we know, L193 is pretty much only Scottish, with very little actual Irish representation. However the so-called Cruithin were also found in Ayrshire/Argyll, some having come from Ireland. But I have to admit I know almost nothing about them, other than the contested phrase 'Irish Picts'. The more I read, the more tangled and confusing it all becomes...!

Dubhthach
11-11-2015, 01:37 PM
Cruithin is only used in earliest strata of the Annals, by later stage you only see Dynastical names such as Dál nAraidi.

Their concentration was more in and around South Antrim, Lough Neagh and into East Tyrone/South-East Derry, see section here (not all relevant pages included in Google preview)

https://books.google.ie/books?id=g6yq2sKLlFkC&lpg=PP1&dq=early%20christian%20ireland&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false

What's evident though is there are "enhanced" connections between Northern Britain and Northern half of Ireland in period after 300BC.

Archaelogy at Clogher Hillfort pointed to connections with Roman-Britain in the 1st century AD (goods etc.)
https://www.academia.edu/7150576/Clogher_an_archaeological_window_on_early_Medieval _Tyrone_and_Mid_Ulster

Jon
11-11-2015, 04:22 PM
Thanks Paul. I have to say, the mythical story of Cairbre Riata, originating in Munster, then heading to Ulster, then over to Scotland in the coastal west, fits L513 pretty neatly, and does, from what I've seen in this thread, correspond to some of the later dynasties (e.g. Maguire). Reckon there could be something in this? Irish and Scottish myth tends to be hard to separate from historical reality...

Rory Cain
11-12-2015, 12:08 AM
Thanks Paul. I have to say, the mythical story of Cairbre Riata, originating in Munster, then heading to Ulster, then over to Scotland in the coastal west, fits L513 pretty neatly, and does, from what I've seen in this thread, correspond to some of the later dynasties (e.g. Maguire). Reckon there could be something in this? Irish and Scottish myth tends to be hard to separate from historical reality...

The layers of mythology created by the political propagandists of later ruling regimes has obscured the original history, and led to over-concentration on mythical figures like Milesius, the Three Collas, etc. The Dal Riata too, at the expense of others, but I suspect the Dal Riata may yet prove credible, just not the only possibility. While they were the only folk movement, you maybe onto something nonetheless.

While I would expect to find several DNA types involved in the Dal Riada or other folk movements like the Attacotti, L513 does appear to fit. I'd like to see if it can be genetically mapped in other tribes and locations as has been done for the Maguire etc dynasty in the Fermanagh part of L513's range.

Jon
11-12-2015, 07:31 AM
Thanks Rory. A propos mapping in other locations/dynasties - I was rather confused by the spread of L193 in Scotland. Heavy in central areas, which normally means Pictish, and also up in the north east. But also well represented in the south west, which is not the case with other 'Pictish' suspected HG's. And given the equal first highest frequency in the Hebrides, it got me speculating. Hebridean/western origins (like in Ireland), followed by a folk movement east into Perthshire (ancient royal Scotland). Could this tie into the original Canmore dynasty, originated in Kenneth MacAlpin? His own origins are being heavily discussed right now (see Woolf etc.), and are far from clear yet.

Rory Cain
11-12-2015, 12:00 PM
Thanks Rory. A propos mapping in other locations/dynasties - I was rather confused by the spread of L193 in Scotland. Heavy in central areas, which normally means Pictish, and also up in the north east. But also well represented in the south west, which is not the case with other 'Pictish' suspected HG's. And given the equal first highest frequency in the Hebrides, it got me speculating. Hebridean/western origins (like in Ireland), followed by a folk movement east into Perthshire (ancient royal Scotland). Could this tie into the original Canmore dynasty, originated in Kenneth MacAlpin? His own origins are being heavily discussed right now (see Woolf etc.), and are far from clear yet.

Jon, I may steer clear of Kenneth MacAlpin. I think there has always been a degree of uncertainty about him. In more general terms, I wondering if what I presently see in comparing the DNA record with the historical record is a thrust of M222 and DF21 from southwest Scotland into Ireland producing a corresponding movement of L513 up the west of Ireland, continuing up the west of Scotland, Airer-Gaedhel or Argyll, swinging East into Ath-Fodla (literally "New Ireland"), now Atholl, the heart of Perthshire. You appear to be describing something similar.

Jon
11-12-2015, 01:23 PM
Wow, interesting. So a real interplay between the HGs...I was kinda thinking L193 might be Pictish after all (Perthshire, and not found much at all in Ireland); but this could be a wave of Goidelic migration into Britain and Ireland for L513 (your classic 'western coast' pattern of migration), with parallel mutations after that point on both sides. Either way, with quite a frequency in Argyll and Ayrshire, I honestly doubt L193 could be exclusively Pictish anyway. I think a key to all of this is how we view the relatedness of Gaelic peoples. I know it caused some controversy at the time, but the view that there must have been Gaelic speakers in Scotland before wholesale migration from Ireland seems sensible, if not likely.

dhubsith
11-12-2015, 03:47 PM
Wow, interesting. So a real interplay between the HGs...I was kinda thinking L193 might be Pictish after all (Perthshire, and not found much at all in Ireland); but this could be a wave of Goidelic migration into Britain and Ireland for L513 (your classic 'western coast' pattern of migration), with parallel mutations after that point on both sides. Either way, with quite a frequency in Argyll and Ayrshire, I honestly doubt L193 could be exclusively Pictish anyway. I think a key to all of this is how we view the relatedness of Gaelic peoples. I know it caused some controversy at the time, but the view that there must have been Gaelic speakers in Scotland before wholesale migration from Ireland seems sensible, if not likely.

Great discussion... I'm also trying to understand how my MC14's fit into all of this. The MC14's split into "northern" and "southern" parts, which have had a separate existance for hundreds of years. The largest "northern" surname is Cameron, with MacPhee second, other surnames showing up as well. The Cameron chiefly line is MC14, but the MacPhee/McFie chiefly line is L1335/L1065, and has a long association with the Isle of Colonsay. I do not know how there came to be two very different groups with the same surname, it could be a case of name convergence, or possibly both groups had a past association on Colonsay. One other piece of the puzzle... The Cameron and MacKenzie clans had a long-running war over the fate of Lochaber and surrounding areas, which ended when peace was made after the inconclusive battle of Loch Arkaig (MacPhee territory). This could represent a movement of L513 (Gaelic) moving into MC14 (Pictish) lands, then making peace and settling down.

Jon
11-12-2015, 05:26 PM
Fascinating stuff. I just wish we had more solid ground in terms of archaeology and documentation which would help us in our speculations. Maybe one day! I'm sure you know that MacKenzie is a major surname in L513, being the core MacKenzie group. We also have a fair few Camerons. L193 seems to be right in the middle of it all, showing up in both traditionally Pictish and Goedelic areas. Recently however I've been erring towards the suspicion that L513 might well have been generally Goedelic-speaking folks rather than Brythonic; but of course it's almost impossibly hard to tell.

MacUalraig
11-12-2015, 05:36 PM
Great stuff guys. I heard some more info on L513 from my uncle who tested with SDNA...apparantly in their stats L513 (specifically L193) is highest in Hebrides and Perthshire, as well as the classic areas of Argyll and Ayrshire. So it looks like L513, wherever it pops up, is pretty western/coastal. Interesting indeed. Perthshire might of course be a Pictish element, or maybe the migration of western groups into Pictland when the Kindgom of Alba was first formed. Man, what I would give to see the Y-DNA results of Kenneth MacAlpin ;)

Jon, are you sure about that info? I was told by ScoDNA that S176 aka L193 doesn't work on Chromo2. In fact they ran some special tests for me to confirm that.

"
Re: S176 Kennedys on Chromo2
30/09/2014
To: 'MacUalraig'
Dear MacUalraig,
I've just had the result back from the lab, and as we suspected, testing a known S176+ sample has shown that S176 is not working on chromo2. I have now removed this SNP from the list of working Y markers."

AtWhatCost
11-12-2015, 07:10 PM
Fascinating stuff. I just wish we had more solid ground in terms of archaeology and documentation which would help us in our speculations. Maybe one day! I'm sure you know that MacKenzie is a major surname in L513, being the core MacKenzie group. We also have a fair few Camerons. L193 seems to be right in the middle of it all, showing up in both traditionally Pictish and Goedelic areas. Recently however I've been erring towards the suspicion that L513 might well have been generally Goedelic-speaking folks rather than Brythonic; but of course it's almost impossibly hard to tell.
That would make sense if the L513 were the foot soldiers, "regular" clan type folk. The chiefly lines would be something different of course.

Rory Cain
11-12-2015, 08:24 PM
Fascinating stuff. I just wish we had more solid ground in terms of archaeology and documentation which would help us in our speculations. Maybe one day! I'm sure you know that MacKenzie is a major surname in L513, being the core MacKenzie group. We also have a fair few Camerons. L193 seems to be right in the middle of it all, showing up in both traditionally Pictish and Goedelic areas. Recently however I've been erring towards the suspicion that L513 might well have been generally Goedelic-speaking folks rather than Brythonic; but of course it's almost impossibly hard to tell.

Jon, my linguistics background is minimal and I am happy to leave linguistics to others. But my hunch is that M222 and DF21 were originally Britonnic-speakers in Midwest Scotland until they muscled into Ireland. At the time they were bumped along the west coasts of Ireland and Scotland by M222 and DF21, I too would think that L513 were Gaelic-speakers.

Jon
11-12-2015, 08:24 PM
I think that L513 is very old, and widespread, so I guess that it would have been found in lots of 'regular' clansmen and folk: that's been my gut feeling for a while. But we do have a number of core groups of clans, including the MacKenzies, Drummonds, possibly MacLeans, and over in Ireland possibly the Maguires. Linking DNA lines to often highly fragile paper trails is always tricky though, isn't it?

Rory Cain
11-12-2015, 08:28 PM
That would make sense if the L513 were the foot soldiers, "regular" clan type folk. The chiefly lines would be something different of course.
If that were so (and I'm not suggesting it isn't), we would be seeing something similar to the Clan Donald situation where the chiefs and the clansmen have different DNA. In the case of Clan Donald the chiefs are R1a and the clansmen are R1b. Do you have instance where the clansmen are R-L513 and the chiefs are something else?

Jon
11-12-2015, 08:29 PM
I think that L513 is very old, and widespread, so I guess that it would have been found in lots of 'regular' clansmen and folk: that's been my gut feeling for a while. But we do have a number of core groups of clans, including the MacKenzies, Drummonds, possibly MacLeans, and over in Ireland possibly the Maguires. Linking DNA lines to often highly fragile paper trails is always tricky though, isn't it?

Jon
11-12-2015, 09:08 PM
Hi Iain,

These were stats based only on their customers tested positive on Y tests for S176; so probably not including Chromo2, and admittedly based on probably quite a small overall sample total.

MacUalraig
11-12-2015, 09:57 PM
Hi Iain,

These were stats based only on their customers tested positive on Y tests for S176; so probably not including Chromo2, and admittedly based on probably quite a small overall sample total.

Yes, they went back to some old samples to cross check the chip for me but as you say, I suspect limited numbers.

Rory Cain
11-13-2015, 01:50 AM
I think that L513 is very old, and widespread, so I guess that it would have been found in lots of 'regular' clansmen and folk: that's been my gut feeling for a while. But we do have a number of core groups of clans, including the MacKenzies, Drummonds, possibly MacLeans, and over in Ireland possibly the Maguires. Linking DNA lines to often highly fragile paper trails is always tricky though, isn't it?

Yes, and a different thing to what I was asking. The Clan Donald, Grant and other projects have samples from people claiming to be chiefs. Those chiefs have tested, regardless of either the fragility or the robustness of their paper trails. In those two projects, the chiefs (alleged or real) results stand out from the clansmen. Rather as Atwhatcost suggested for R-L513.

I see examples of that in R-DF21 also, where we have what you call "core groups" which may or may not include the alleged chiefs of those clans. In sevearl Scots clans with DF21+ "core groups", the chiefs have different DNA although not always. Conversely the somewhat mixed P314 and CTS4466 McCarthy clan have P314+ chiefs. In the overwhelmingly CTS4466 O'Donuoghue clan, O'Donoghue of the Glens is CTS4466 while the overall chief O'Donoghue Mor is DF21 > DF5. But if you dont have the answers in relation to R-L513 that's OK. Just checking whether you could verify Atwhatcosts's statement.

Jon
11-13-2015, 06:25 AM
Rory, as far as I know, and I'm not the expert here (Ann Starnsberger is with the Mackenzie project and is great on this stuff): the Mackenzies are the best shot for a chiefly line in a Scottish L513, as a few of the diverse core L513 group (who have their own downstream clade of L577) can trace back to Alexander Ionriac ('Upright') Mackenzie, mediaeval progenitor of the clan. We're also seeing some promising developments in the clan Drummond, and MacLean (although MacLean is such a common name one has to be careful). Brad Maguire has done some excellent recent work on trying to dig back to find their chiefly line, including timing SNPs - as we know, the majority of them are L513, and a number claim descent from Donn Mor Maguire I think. So we may indeed be seeing some chiefly lines there, but as I say, I don't have personal experience of that specific research.

AtWhatCost
11-13-2015, 02:17 PM
If that were so (and I'm not suggesting it isn't), we would be seeing something similar to the Clan Donald situation where the chiefs and the clansmen have different DNA. In the case of Clan Donald the chiefs are R1a and the clansmen are R1b. Do you have instance where the clansmen are R-L513 and the chiefs are something else?

Yes, McKenzie and Matheson, one chiefly line. I believe there is more than one though, not an expert on them by any stretch.

AtWhatCost
11-13-2015, 02:19 PM
An interesting piece of the puzzle comes together. The Airghialla tend to be DF21 in Eastern regions and L513 in Fermanagh. This shapes some of the L513 in a match with the traditional genealogies. Nice work. I gather you are talking about the Airghialla post Ulaid, since they would have been neither DF21, M222 or L513.

AtWhatCost
11-13-2015, 02:24 PM
The layers of mythology created by the political propagandists of later ruling regimes has obscured the original history, and led to over-concentration on mythical figures like Milesius, the Three Collas, etc. The Dal Riata too, at the expense of others, but I suspect the Dal Riata may yet prove credible, just not the only possibility. While they were the only folk movement, you maybe onto something nonetheless.

While I would expect to find several DNA types involved in the Dal Riada or other folk movements like the Attacotti, L513 does appear to fit. I'd like to see if it can be genetically mapped in other tribes and locations as has been done for the Maguire etc dynasty in the Fermanagh part of L513's range.

Very good point, it also seems to be very much alive and well to this very day, meaning trying to fit dna where it probably doesn't really fit etc. On the bright side, advances are coming much more quickly, than they were just a few years ago.

AtWhatCost
11-13-2015, 02:30 PM
Yes, McKenzie and Matheson, one chiefly line. I believe there is more than one though, not an expert on them by any stretch.
You have McKenzie, Matheson and Orem surnames all under L643, no other surnames yet that I'm aware of but that doesn't mean there aren't any. All surnames linked "on paper" and now proven connected by DNA testing. Are there any other snps where all three surnames appear together?

Dubhthach
11-13-2015, 03:51 PM
Jon, my linguistics background is minimal and I am happy to leave linguistics to others. But my hunch is that M222 and DF21 were originally Britonnic-speakers in Midwest Scotland until they muscled into Ireland. At the time they were bumped along the west coasts of Ireland and Scotland by M222 and DF21, I too would think that L513 were Gaelic-speakers.

In context of pre-Roman incusion into southern Britain going on about Brythonic vs. Goidelic is somewhat moot. In context of 1st century BC the difference between two branches would have been fairly minimum (less than say differences between modern Dutch and modern German). You have to remember that Brythonic underwent influence from Latin due to Roman presence (sorta like how Norman-French modified English). So alot of the differeation between two branches really dates to period 0AD-400AD.

Heber
11-13-2015, 06:42 PM
This may be of interest to those descended from the Stuart, McGregor or McAlpin Royal lines.

http://www.scotsman.com/heritage/people-places/alistair-moffat-do-you-have-scots-royal-blood-1-3947500

Rory Cain
11-13-2015, 08:46 PM
I gather you are talking about the Airghialla post Ulaid, since they would have been neither DF21, M222 or L513.

As I understand it, the Airghialla are be definition "post Ulaid" as the Airghialla Septs are the ones who conquered South Ulster and took the Ulaid capital of Emania. You are probably right that the Ulaid were neither DF21, M222 or L513. I'm not sure that anyone has really nailed that down. I confess my prime interest is DF21 which appears to have had some sort of client-state relationship with M222, both of which appear to have interacted in sone way with L513. Sorry I can't extend that further to include the Ulaid- that's getting outside my area.

Rory Cain
11-13-2015, 08:58 PM
This may be of interest to those descended from the Stuart, McGregor or McAlpin Royal lines.

http://www.scotsman.com/heritage/people-places/alistair-moffat-do-you-have-scots-royal-blood-1-3947500

With a McKinnon grandmother it's of interest to me too, thanks Heber. While much if the alleged Siol Alpin has unravelled, it seems that Macgregors and Mackinnons share R-S690. The chiefs Lauchlan MacFingon and James Macgregor, both of that Ilk, signed a bond of fellowship in 1671. Evidently they knew something all along.

rncambron
11-13-2015, 09:41 PM
With a McKinnon grandmother it's of interest to me too, thanks Heber. While much if the alleged Siol Alpin has unravelled, it seems that Macgregors and Mackinnons share R-S690. The chiefs Lauchlan MacFingon and James Macgregor, both of that Ilk, signed a bond of fellowship in 1671. Evidently they knew something all along.

This is typical Moffat of SDNA nonsense.
The nearest the two names have a relationship is S744 circa 400AD.Ref FTDNA Project L1335;Alex W Big tree et al
Mcfingdon was a fantasist in the 17th century in StrathArdle a hundred miles to the east of MacGregor heartlands ,under threat of dispossession by the Murrays of Athole.Anything he could do to ensure possession he did.

Rory Cain
11-13-2015, 11:20 PM
This is typical Moffat of SDNA nonsense.
The nearest the two names have a relationship is S744 circa 400AD.Ref FTDNA Project L1335;Alex W Big tree et al
Mcfingdon was a fantasist in the 17th century in StrathArdle a hundred miles to the east of MacGregor heartlands ,under threat of dispossession by the Murrays of Athole.Anything he could do to ensure possession he did.

You may be right, and I don't claim to know, but what of R-S690 as reported in the Scotsman?

With geography I am on surer ground, so to speak. The Mackinnon homeland before they acquired Straithaird on Skye through a Macleod heiress was north Mull, at least somewhat closer to Macgregor in Glenorchy. And their lands on Mull may well have not been the earliest Mackinnon homeland either. Neither Strathaird not Mull are to the east of the Macgregor heartlands. Maybe you meant west?

rncambron
11-13-2015, 11:39 PM
You may be right, and I don't claim to know, but what of R-S690 as reported in the Scotsman?

With geography I am on surer ground, so to speak. The Mackinnon homeland before they acquired Straithaird on Skye through a Macleod heiress was north Mull, at least somewhat closer to Macgregor in Glenorchy. And their lands on Mull may well have not been the earliest Mackinnon homeland either. Neither Strathaird not Mull are to the east of the Macgregor heartlands. Maybe you meant west?

I appreciate it is difficult for you to understand Scottish geography never mind history but Strathardle is a Glen in Perthshire to the East of StrathTay.Believe me this is Moffat fiction

Rory Cain
11-14-2015, 01:53 AM
I appreciate it is difficult for you to understand Scottish geography never mind history but Strathardle is a Glen in Perthshire to the East of StrathTay.Believe me this is Moffat fiction

Not sure why you want to transplant the Mackinnons to Perthshire, where they have no recorded connections. You may be confused by the superficial similarity of placenames. The Mackinnon'sStrathaird estate is on Skye. If Moffat or anyone else places the Mackinnons in Perthshire because of an unrelated placenamethis would indeed appear to be fiction.

rncambron
11-14-2015, 09:21 AM
You might wish to look at document GD176/264 in the National Records of Scotland Online Catalogue re Sir Lachlan and Strathardle.
Re the SNPs the MacKinnons are under PF5236 and the MacGregors are under S691/S690.The common ancestor is S744 currently being dated by YFull to c3-400AD.Can't see how that defines a MacAlpin connection.

Rory Cain
11-14-2015, 09:42 AM
Re the SNPs the MacKinnons are under PF5236 and the MacGregors are under S691/S690.The common ancestor is S744 currently being dated by YFull to c3-400AD.Can't see how that defines a MacAlpin connection.

Me neither. If you remember that wasn't me suggesting it, it was an article in the Scotsman. I think we are on the same side in that regard. Having checked out what the Scotsman article was suggesting, I don't see anything to support it.

rncambron
11-14-2015, 12:07 PM
According to an edition of the Celtic Review the old name for Strathaird was Strathordill.It looks as if there is a transcription error in the Scottish Archives Catalogue ie Strathordill has been read as Strathardle and this has been faithfully followed by subsequent chroniclers thereby misleading me.
I suppose even professional archivists are not perfect.

Rory Cain
11-14-2015, 08:01 PM
According to an edition of the Celtic Review the old name for Strathaird was Strathordill.It looks as if there is a transcription error in the Scottish Archives Catalogue ie Strathordill has been read as Strathardle and this has been faithfully followed by subsequent chroniclers thereby misleading me.
I suppose even professional archivists are not perfect.

Strathaird, the Mackinnon estate on Skye, has sometimes been rendered Strathordill, Strathairdale and other spelling variants. This is not unknown in Gaelic place names or surnames, particularly as part of the process of anglicisation. I must say though that you are possibly the first correspondent on Anthrogenica to admit a mistake. I respect that.

After being misled by The Scotsman article I have to return to my original stance that there appears to be insufficient commonality of DNA between the alleged Siol Alpin to prove any alleged common descent.

Rory Cain
12-02-2015, 03:28 AM
The Corca Laidhe used to receive mentions in this thread, although they have been forgotten of late. Out of curiosity I looked at their DNA Project. As with the last time I looked, they have a mix of names (not all necessarily Corca Laidhe if I understand correctly) and a mix of haplogroups.
The pie chart is an aid to the reader as it graphically shows that most Corca Laidhe project members are CTS4466 followed by R1b miscellaneous, I2a/L161 Isles and R-M222. According to the accompanying text, I-L161 "is what differentiates the Corca Laidhe from other Irish tribes."

pregan
12-04-2015, 09:52 PM
Yeah, as part of the Munster project, we have had a number of conversations on the Corca Laidhe. I believe the prevailing theory was that the I2a/L161 Isles descendants were "probably" the original Corca Laidhe Driscolls. I do not recall the reasoning behind this but, perhaps, it was due to the high predominance of Driscoll names in that branch versus the much wider surname variance we find in CTS4466. The thinking was that the CTS4466 people with Corca Laidhe surnames were due to clan affiliation. I am not sure I buy that theory.

One interesting tidbit I picked up while perusing the Corca Laidhe project concerns testing descendants of various royal lines. One section talks about Coffey :

Test descendants of the Coffey of Munster and compare the results with the Nicholson said to have branched of the Coffey line represented by descendants of Donald MacNicol, Chief of the Clan in the Isle of Skye, in the reigns of King Charles I. and II.

Interestingly, there are no Coffeys in the I2a/L161 group, but there is a good number of them under CTS4466 (not too mention in many other places). I guess my point would be that if we had Coffeys under the Isles group it would be more supportive of this theory. Therefore, you could probably argue CTS4466 is the place to look for the true Corca Laidhe descendants. It appears to me that the Isles group contains a smaller subset of the documented Corca Laidhe versus CTS4466. Hard to say.

Rory Cain
12-05-2015, 03:47 AM
Yeah, as part of the Munster project, we have had a number of conversations on the Corca Laidhe. I believe the prevailing theory was that the I2a/L161 Isles descendants were "probably" the original Corca Laidhe Driscolls. ... Hard to say.

I respect that you do not have a pre-conceived notion on this. I likewise respect that (despite people possibly wanting you to), you have not reached a conclusion either. I'm looking at the same mix of DNA types amongst the septs of Corca Laidhe and also not seeing a conclusive answer. Maybe confining our view to the Corca Laidhe is too narrow in scope to see it all, and we should look wider. The McCartan DNA project devote some attention to L161, of which I extract just a few lines as a brief summary:

... when found in Ireland, the distribution of L161 I2a2b-Isles appears to be confined to refuge areas such as the south-west, Connaught and parts of Ulster. It is found [as is I2b1a] in families like Cartin, Maguiness and O'Driscoll in above average numbers, but generally it is spread across these refuge areas thinly, as if subsumed by the R1b majority. This suggests a relic, pre-Gaelic population to me. Also, very importantly, subclade C1 of L161 I2a2b-Isles has a definite 'hotspot' in Rathcroghan, Roscommon, allegedly the seat of a satellite Cruthin settlement [the bulk was in Ulster]."

Clearly a Cruithin origin is being suggested here, but again the problem remains that some allegedly Cruithin septs are distingushed by a showing of I-L161 whereas other allegedly Cruithin septs appear to have little or no L161. Plus some are I-M284 rather than I-L161. Not a problem I suppose if one accepts that Haplogroup I predates the arrival of R1b in the Isles, but I didn't want to throw in alleged arrival dates as that may create more scope for disagreement.

Heber
12-05-2015, 02:58 PM
Rory,

You commented once of DF21 containing an above average number of Filidh hereditary families eg OCleirigh, ODalaigh, MacLachlan, Maolchonaire, etc.
Do you have any opinion on the Gleesons who are R1b-Z255.
Maurice is doing some research on the origin of the name.
They are also connected to the Deisi and the migration to Wales.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-z255/

oneillabu
12-05-2015, 05:06 PM
There are actually more Driscoll surname origins than just the Corca Laidhe, the following is the Dal Riada pedigree from the book of Ballymote

The origin of the of Cairbre Riada actually dates from 229 BC as is shown in the book of Ballymote pedigrees below

Aongus Tuirimheach 81st Monarch also had a Son Fiacha Fearmara from whom stem the Dal Riada (229 BC Approx)
Fiacha Fearmara
Ailill Erand
Feradach
Forgo
Maine
Arnail
Ro-Thrir
Trir
Ro-Sin
Sin
Dedad
Iar
Ailill
Eogan
Edersceal 95th Monarch
Conaire Mor 97th Monarch
Daire Dornmor
Coirpre Crom-chend
Mug-lama
Conaire Coem
Conaire Coem (Conaire Cáem)
Cairbre Riada (Coirpri Rigfhota)

The surname Driscoll also stems from Edersceal 95th Monarch of Ireland who was the ancestor of Conaire Mor, who is in turn given as the ancestor of a number of ancient Scottish pedigrees in the 1465 MS including the Lord of the Isles McDonalds.

Clan McInnes of Iona are of the same stock as the Lord of the Isles which is shown in the 1465 MS and also from this line stems Gille Chatten Mor who spawned McIntosh, McPherson, Davidson, all of these names above are reflected in the L720 cluster including a Driscoll from Cork who looks like the progenitor of the Scottish Cluster which is exactly what the Ballymote pedigree says. This Driscol has ordered a 111 marker upgrade in the recent sale so this will be extremely interesting to see what the GD between the L720 Scottish cluster and the Irish Driscoll.

The O'Neill L720 cluster looks like they split from this group around 1500 years ago and have distinctive markers such as the normal value of 12 at marke DYS425 and also the more common value of 15 for DYS464a, as I have pointed out before, this is consistent with the two Sons of Erc shown in some pedigrees producing two separate Scottish and Irish lines. There is a 111 marker upgrade ordered for one of this O'Neill cluster and the GD distance at present is 6 at 67 markers so this also will another very interesting result.

Rory Cain
12-05-2015, 08:36 PM
Rory,

You commented once of DF21 containing an above average number of Filidh hereditary families eg OCleirigh, ODalaigh, MacLachlan, Maolchonaire, etc.
Do you have any opinion on the Gleesons who are R1b-Z255.
Maurice is doing some research on the origin of the name.
They are also connected to the Deisi and the migration to Wales.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-z255/

Hi Gerard. Can't say I have a firm opinion, but with a Gleason gt gt grandmother from East Clare, I share an interest. I may be wrong but I tend to equate the Deisi with Z253. It may be that when the Deisi hit the big time they recreated themselves as the Dal gCas. Others will dispute that of course. But that's my take, and I'm thinking the Z256 Gleasons were originally Laigin. The Fitzpatricks of Ossory are producing more Z255 than any other haplogroup, which potentially makes the Gleasons akin to the Ossory. At several times in their history the Ossory, like the DF21 Eily, occupied bigger chunks of what is now Munster. So that's the general direction if my thinking. Others may well disagree. We'll see in time where further evidence leads us.

Rory Cain
12-05-2015, 08:48 PM
There are actually more Driscoll surname origins than just the Corca Laidhe, the following is the Dal Riada pedigree from the book of Ballymote

The origin of the of Cairbre Riada actually dates from 229 BC as is shown in the book of Ballymote pedigrees below

Aongus Tuirimheach 81st Monarch also had a Son Fiacha Fearmara from whom stem the Dal Riada (229 BC Approx)
Fiacha Fearmara
Ailill Erand
Feradach
Forgo
Maine
Arnail
Ro-Thrir
Trir
Ro-Sin
Sin
Dedad
Iar
Ailill
Eogan
Edersceal 95th Monarch
Conaire Mor 97th Monarch
Daire Dornmor
Coirpre Crom-chend
Mug-lama
Conaire Coem
Conaire Coem (Conaire Cáem)
Cairbre Riada (Coirpri Rigfhota)

The surname Driscoll also stems from Edersceal 95th Monarch of Ireland who was the ancestor of Conaire Mor...

I don't have personal knowledge of this 2nd O'Driscoll sept that you mention, descended from Conaire. As Conaire shares an ancestor, Dedad, with the Corca Laidhe, one might reasonably presume that they should share the same haplogroup. If you can use SNPs to map the descent to both O'Driscoll Septs, and the other Septs that you mention, and match this to the genealogies, this would be compelling.

oneillabu
12-05-2015, 11:18 PM
I don't have personal knowledge of this 2nd O'Driscoll sept that you mention, descended from Conaire. As Conaire shares an ancestor, Dedad, with the Corca Laidhe, one might reasonably presume that they should share the same haplogroup. If you can use SNPs to map the descent to both O'Driscoll Septs, and the other Septs that you mention, and match this to the genealogies, this would be compelling.

The name Driscoll stems from Ó hEidirsceoil, this is a fact so as you know from my previous posts I have investigated this possible Corca Laidhe connection regarding other surnames for L720 which has proven (so far) to be a non runner however the origin of S5488 from this region is unquestionable and the L720 Driscoll ancestors hail from Cork so due to the very rare and selective nature of L720 this is not surprising.

The Edersceal in the Ballymote pedigree which is represented by the L720 Driscoll ticks every single box for the Dalriada pedigrees so why should I have to prove the origin of Driscoll's of other haplotypes in order to justify what is simply a no brainer for S7200, let them produce the same for their own haplotype to match the given pedigrees and then I will reconsider my own research.

I am working this out from my own database which contains far more S7200 people than is currently displayed in the DF21 project so until some of these projects who are seeking to selectively prevent certain people from contacting their members regarding testing start behaving in an honest and dignified manner and actually represent all their project members instead of their own personal agendas then unfortunately these people will never be afforded the opportunity to join the DF21 project.

Regarding the L720 O'Neill cluster, I have been subjugated on various forums to derision by self proclaimed experts who are nothing more than selective copy and paste experts however the Gallowglass etc origins have been shown up for the garbage that I knew they were and now we have a very meaningful O'Neill cluster starting to form. The vast bulk of my research is carried out on Autosomal matches so regarding Y DNA matches I am quiet content to play the waiting game because the truth will eventually be undeniable.

Rory Cain
12-06-2015, 04:55 AM
... I am working this out from my own database which contains far more S7200 people than is currently displayed in the DF21 project so until some of these projects who are seeking to selectively prevent certain people from contacting their members regarding testing start behaving in an honest and dignified manner and actually represent all their project members instead of their own personal agendas then unfortunately these people will never be afforded the opportunity to join the DF21 Project....

What utter nonsense, Seamus. As you well know from when you joined, new members do not have to go through any screening process at the R-DF21 Project. If your other genetic-based claims have any merit, you do your cause no good by constantly acting like a little boy crying "wolf".

After investigating your claim that Peter Biggins application to become a co-admin, I checked with both Peter and my co-admins only to learn there was no job application, there was no refusal, and I was not even project admin at the time, it was David Reynolds who you have repeatedly attacked for placing his SNPs on FTDNA's ytree.
So I am not going to waste the time of my co-admins investigating more little boy "wolf" cries, like which co-admin refused your request to add the surname Neylon to our list of project surnames. I am satisfied that no such request was made and that no such refusal was ever issued. I challenge you to produce the email trail.

Your latest statements are simply false as any DF21 person who has joined this project knows full well. It detracts from any evidence or logic that your post might otherwise possess. Having recently had ISOGG add two sister clades of L720, I am open-minded as to what those two sister clades might also tell us about L 720. If your mind is not open, then OK, but false aims about everyone who fails to toe your line do nothing to help L720.

oneillabu
12-06-2015, 07:10 PM
What utter nonsense, Seamus. As you well know from when you joined, new members do not have to go through any screening process at the R-DF21 Project.

How does the following statement refer to the DF21 project?

"so until some of these projects who are seeking to selectively prevent certain people from contacting their members regarding testing start behaving in an honest and dignified manner and actually represent all their project members instead of their own personal agendas"

I was talking about other projects who behave in this way, I will list them all out if you like including all the email's I sent that I never received a reply to, some were sent multiple times and sent to all the admins of the project, one case in particular cost the individual involved the price of a Big Y test to be told what I already knew, that he was L720+, if the project admin had contacted him it would have only cost him the price of a single SNP test.





After investigating your claim that Peter Biggins application to become a co-admin, I checked with both Peter and my co-admins only to learn there was no job application, there was no refusal, and I was not even project admin at the time, it was David Reynolds who you have repeatedly attacked for placing his SNPs on FTDNA's ytree.

As you well know I never said a word about or to David Reynolds during his stewardship of the DF21 project and I have always had the utmost of respect for his contribution, regarding Peter Biggins my only motive here was to try and give S5488 people some representation at project level, as it turns out he used the opportunity to push for the new Z3000 pack using behind the scenes negotiations at FTDNA which he is fully entitled to do however this means that once again the 3000 year old S5488 (novel SNP) SNP is completely ignored once again. I am currently looking at the FTDNA tree which proudly boasts a dazzling array of new SNP's and is L720 there, NO, nore any other SNP's under S5488 with the exception of L130 which YOU ADDED BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT IS WAS PART OF THE FGC3903 TREE AND THAT IS THE ONLY REASON IT IS THERE.

Of course I am once again crying wolf by pointing this out




So I am not going to waste the time of my co-admins investigating more little boy "wolf" cries, like which co-admin refused your request to add the surname Neylon to our list of project surnames. I am satisfied that no such request was made and that no such refusal was ever issued. I challenge you to produce the email trail.

Once again you either misunderstand my request or simply twisted it to suit your own purpose so here it is again in very simple terms

I want a seperate L720 subgroup formed for the L720 people who have a value of 15 for marker DYS464 and a value of 12 for marker DYS444 which is a distinct separate line which split L720 around 1500 years ago from the Driscoll / Scottish line, is this really too much to ask for considering there are numerous other examples of this in the project or is this simply just one rule for S5488 people and anything goes for the rest scenario.




Your latest statements are simply false as any DF21 person who has joined this project knows full well. It detracts from any evidence or logic that your post might otherwise possess. Having recently had ISOGG add two sister clades of L720, I am open-minded as to what those two sister clades might also tell us about L 720. If your mind is not open, then OK, but false aims about everyone who fails to toe your line do nothing to help L720.

I really have no interest whatsoever in your opinion of L720 and I am certainly not getting into any argument like before with your Welsh Gangani and Ui Bairrche theories which you subsequently abandoned, your theories or opinions are completely irrelevant to me, all I want from the project is FAIR PLAY FOR S5488 PEOPLE

TigerMW
12-07-2015, 04:01 PM
I'm posting as a moderator. This is not forum for personal attacks. This is a warning.

MacUalraig
12-07-2015, 04:24 PM
There are actually more Driscoll surname origins than just the Corca Laidhe, the following is the Dal Riada pedigree from the book of Ballymote

The surname Driscoll also stems from Edersceal 95th Monarch of Ireland who was the ancestor of Conaire Mor, who is in turn given as the ancestor of a number of ancient Scottish pedigrees in the 1465 MS including the Lord of the Isles McDonalds.

Clan McInnes of Iona are of the same stock as the Lord of the Isles which is shown in the 1465 MS and also from this line stems Gille Chatten Mor who spawned McIntosh, McPherson, Davidson, all of these names above are reflected in the L720 cluster including a Driscoll from Cork who looks like the progenitor of the Scottish Cluster which is exactly what the Ballymote pedigree says.

Just to say that Davidson is a very common and very widespread surname in Scotland, being very concentrated in NE Scotland but also quite frequent in Ayrshire and Dumfriesshire. There is a bunch of them who may turn out to be in my branch of FGC4077 but we don't really know which part of the country they come from yet. Lochaber/Badenoch where some of those other names congregate probably isn't a strong bet but its not impossible. For all I know they may be from Ayrshire where some Davidsons held Greenan castle on the Carrick coast in Kennedy country.

Rory Cain
12-15-2015, 09:01 PM
. I am currently looking at the FTDNA tree which proudly boasts a dazzling array of new SNP's and is L720 there, NO, nore any other SNP's under S5488 with the exception of L130 which YOU ADDED BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT IS WAS PART OF THE FGC3903 TREE AND THAT IS THE ONLY REASON IT IS THERE


Every attack on David Reynolds has been poorly disguised as an attack on the present admins of the project David founded. Every attack drags up material from the era when David was the sole admin. So these attacks cannot claim to be aimed at anyone else but David. In David's defence, he was clearly quite busy during his first absence as project admin for his return coincided with the posting of the Ytree which is now being attacked. Why the timing, when that tree has been superseded and David is not here to defend himself? We had to start somewhere, and as the sole admin back then, David made that start. Those who now attack him did nothing to assist David. No doubt in my mind who is the better man.

Rory Cain
12-15-2015, 09:12 PM
Just to say that Davidson is a very common and very widespread surname in Scotland, being very concentrated in NE Scotland but also quite frequent in Ayrshire and Dumfriesshire. There is a bunch of them who may turn out to be in my branch of FGC4077 but we don't really know which part of the country they come from yet. Lochaber/Badenoch where some of those other names congregate probably isn't a strong bet but its not impossible. For all I know they may be from Ayrshire where some Davidsons held Greenan castle on the Carrick coast in Kennedy country.

You are quite right about anyone basing theories on ubiquitous surnames within multiple origins and attributing just a single origin to them. Almost every anthropogenica correspondent is aware of this obvious danger, except one. The rest of us accept that there could well be more than one David on earth to found the Davidsons, and that we might expect multiple origins. Equally, the surname O'Neill does not alone make one the heir to Aodh Buidhe O'Neill, Lord of Clanaboy! Just look at the diversity of O'Neill DNA. To be credible, one has to do better than that, and to keep ones options open as you have with the Davidsons. Your post is the more credible.

oneillabu
12-15-2015, 09:37 PM
Every attack on David Reynolds has been poorly disguised as an attack on the present admins of the project David founded. Every attack drags up material from the era when David was the sole admin. So these attacks cannot claim to be aimed at anyone else but David. In David's defence, he was clearly quite busy during his first absence as project admin for his return coincided with the posting of the Ytree which is now being attacked. Why the timing, when that tree has been superseded and David is not here to defend himself? We had to start somewhere, and as the sole admin back then, David made that start. Those who now attack him did nothing to assist David. No doubt in my mind who is the better man.

I contacted David on a regular basis with information on people who matched all the different DF21 clusters including you own and every single time he followed up on them and most of them ended up in the project, practically the entire L720 cluster is there because of me, most of them contacted through Y Search which allowed me to by-pass dishonest admins with agendas who refuse to contact people.

[Inflammatory text deleted by Moderator]

oneillabu
12-16-2015, 12:38 PM
You are quite right about anyone basing theories on ubiquitous surnames within multiple origins and attributing just a single origin to them. Almost every anthropogenica correspondent is aware of this obvious danger, except one. The rest of us accept that there could well be more than one David on earth to found the Davidsons, and that we might expect multiple origins. Equally, the surname O'Neill does not alone make one the heir to Aodh Buidhe O'Neill, Lord of Clanaboy! Just look at the diversity of O'Neill DNA. To be credible, one has to do better than that, and to keep ones options open as you have with the Davidsons. Your post is the more credible.

The Scottish Davidson's are related to the McIntosh and McPherson of Clan Chattan, (see link below) I don't care about the origin of other Davidson's of which there are many, that is up to them to research their own line and if they think there is a Clan Chattan connection reflected in their results then come forward with it, the fact is that the very old and rare branch of L720 HAS DAVIDSON, MCPHERSON AND MCINTOSH people exactly as the pedigrees state all with credible genetic distances between them so simple common logic dictates that this is the line of Gille Chatten Mor, especially since according to the 1450 MS they share a common ancestor with the Lord of the Isles McDonnell's who in turn were related to Clan McInnes all of these are once again reflected in L720 not to mention the ancient Munster origin that is mentioned for these lines is clearly reflected in S5488. Just look at the post and anti S7200 which swing from almost 100% Irish to nearly 90% Scottish and you will see that this is an extremely credible line indeed.

Regarding the O'Neill's, the reason I claim ancestry from the Aodh Bhuide line is simply because of a mixture of my own paper pedigree and Autosomal DNA which compliment each other, I can clearly place my Ancestors in St Columbs's in Derry and Blaris County Antrim prior to the Battle of the Boyne and in County Louth in the 1740's, an example of Autosomal evidence is a 5th Cousin match to the Blayney's of Donegal who are descended from the Lord Blayney line, Shane/Sean O’Neill was married to Letitia Blayney daughter of Lord Blayney which is the only logical expanation for this connection, I have around 40 differant Autosomal mathches including two Neely's with paper pedigrees to Ulster in the late 1600's so I see no reason to discount this overwhelming evidence for an Ulster O'Neill origin just to suit people like you who are not looking for answers but simply trying to prevent other people from finding them.

Here is the Davidson link

https://www.scotweb.co.uk/info/davidson/

Moderator
12-17-2015, 09:12 AM
Once again, all members are reminded to keep to the topic and to refrain from any form of personal attack, or reprisal. The correct procedure for reporting rule infractions is to use the report post function.

Observe the footnote below:

Rory Cain
12-17-2015, 08:48 PM
The Scottish Davidson's are related to the McIntosh and McPherson of Clan Chattan, (see link below) I don't care about the origin of other Davidson's of which there are many...

"Many" is right. The Davidson Project has 396 members. Of course if just one of them is L720, one would discard the other 395. "Never let the facts get in the way of a good (?) story." I hope you can understand if the rest of us cannot play the same game. Looking at Clan Chattan, L1335 appears to be the main unifying force. Any theory that fails to address that fact would appear incomplete, at best.

Rory Cain
12-17-2015, 11:08 PM
The name Driscoll stems from Ó hEidirsceoil, this is a fact so as you know from my previous posts I have investigated this possible Corca Laidhe connection regarding other surnames for L720 which has proven (so far) to be a non runner however the origin of S5488 from this region is unquestionable and the L720 Driscoll ancestors hail from Cork ....

You may be confusing "origin" with "history". rms2 nicely summarised the distinction in another thread. Just because a particular SNP has a particular region in it's History is not to be confused with it's origin. If still confused, rms2 may be able to assist you.
This 2nd O'Driscoll sept you have discovered remains elusive. References abound relating to the O'Driscoll lords of Baltimore, leading sept of the Corca Laidhe, descended from a man named Eidersceoil who lived Ca 10th century. This timeframe is consistent with other Surnames from Ireland, the First Nation to adopt fixed surnames.

Your discovery of a 2nd but much older O'Driscoll sept named after a man who lived another 1,000 years earlier is an amazing discovery that changes Irish history as we knew it. This Eidersceoil was Ard Ri tempo Christi, so he can be dated with some degree of certainty. Claims of an Irish surname that old is much less certain. We might hope that it is not another fabrication like David Reynolds refusing Peter Biggins application to become admin of the DF21 Project. I did done due diligence. Peter advised he never made any such application. With that in mind, we might just wait for further evidence of a 2nd O'Driscoll sept emerging 1000 years before Irish surnames were adopted. Such evidence might be more than just one singleton, I suggest.

oneillabu
12-18-2015, 04:38 PM
"Many" is right. The Davidson Project has 396 members. Of course if just one of them is L720, one would discard the other 395. "Never let the facts get in the way of a good (?) story." I hope you can understand if the rest of us cannot play the same game. Looking at Clan Chattan, L1335 appears to be the main unifying force. Any theory that fails to address that fact would appear incomplete, at best.

I really have no interest in your outlandish theories such as the Welsh Gangani origin for DF21 or when you eventually dumped this in favour of the Brigante / Ui Bairrche DF21 which you stated at the time was one of the very few things in DNA that we can take as an absolute certainty, you then dumped this also in favour of a Scottish origin for DF21 with a migration to Ireland which is your current line regardless of the fact that all the evidence suggests the opposite, like I said before your opinion is completely irrelevant to me and based on the evidence of your previous theories anything you say regarding Driscol, Clan Chattan etc is worthless to me however what is important to me is fair play for the S5488 people because this is the reason that the S5488 cluster has become static with the exception of the recent L720 O'Neill's who I asked to join.

I am curious as to why you never actually seem to research your own Ó Catháin cluster because looking at this there would seem to be a huge amount of work to be done here such as increasing the member 169902 markers to 111 to get a true picture of the distance between the common Ó Catháin ancestor and the rest and then if you look at the other FGC5780+ Byrne cluster you will see that there is a GD of 35 at 111 markers which pushes the common ancestor back to well over two thousand years ago which basically rules out your current Scottish origin theory, maybe if you spent less time trying to debunk everyone else research such as the McCarthy study which you rubbished along with what you called the SO-CALLED Ely O'Carroll's etc, my advice to you is to put forward some theories for you own origin for a change and never mind S5488 who you are not related to for at least three thousand years.

Rory Cain
12-18-2015, 07:38 PM
In attacking those who do not subscribe to his theories, oneillabu has handed his victims the right to equal time, for them to examine his theories. The string of theories that the Boii tribe became Egyption Copts and set up a branch office of that church in Ireland, only to return as the mythical Tuatha de Dana, then return again as the mythical Milesians and morph into both the Ui Niall and paradoxically also into the people the Ui Niall pushed out, the Dal Riata, has a lot if moving parts to be cobbled together. But if that's the orthodoxy we are supposed to subscribe to, we are entitled to examine it. We wouldn't want a world where oneillabu gets to attack everyone else but his own theory never comes under scrutiny. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Unless, just maybe, oneillabu is proposing some sort of truce where he will stop attacking others, in return for them not questioning his dogma. Nah, looking at oneillabu's track record he could never stick to that, even if that was his present proposal. So any attack on others should be balanced by a due consideration of what oneillabu wants to push onto us. That's fair. Then having examined both sides we should be able to freely choose which we find more credible.

oneillabu
12-18-2015, 11:31 PM
You are indulging in semantics once again, regarding the BOII this was only pure speculation on the Italian DF21 result that I dismissed myself based as the evidence of later results that discounted this possiblility, my theory on the connection between the Celtic Church of St Columba and the Egyptian Copts had nothing to do with the BOII and this theory was supported by a number of academics and mentioned on a Scottish television documentary on the Celts which proved I was right, regarding the Tuatha De Dannan and the Ogham stones and their obvious connection to the territorial areas of DF21, this is without a doubt correct based on my own research, you can take it or leave it however for you to try and connect all of these together with the Ui Neill and Dal Riada is pathetic and strikes of desperation on your part. Just try to concentrate on your own DNA and try to actually discover something meaningful and never mind everyone else who are working towards actually discovering meaningful answers for THEIR OWN DNA GROUPS

Rory Cain
12-19-2015, 09:21 PM
Oneillabu appears to lack an intellectual grasp of the term, inherent contradiction. If he continues to attack everyone who dares hold a different view to him, he ought to expect that we will examine his alternative view to assess if it truly is better. It's an inherent contradiction to expect that he can attack others and not face at least some scrutiny himself. So far we have not been swayed by the singleton-based Boii theory: the singleton-based Corca Laidhe > O'Driscoll theory or the singleton-based Davidson theory.

Hmmm, there's trend here. Can everyone else spot it? Well, everyone except oneillabu, that is. Just as well we checked it out instead if just being bullied into it. So next time we get bullied over some replacement theory, we might have to check that out too. Equal time, as in court or parliament. Of course, if oneillabu were to learn something from this and abandon the adversary style used in parliament....nah, that will never happen. We can see that from his track record. What's the saying, "a one trick dog"? Hence the fatal attraction to singletons, it seems.

TigerMW
12-19-2015, 09:37 PM
Moderation note: Please, let us move away from personal commentary and circular and repetitive arguments.

Rory Cain
12-19-2015, 11:34 PM
OK, fair call. "HUA" as my Marine buddies say. And I'll even accept oneillabu's proposal that I post something about FGC5780 and he doesn't attack me for doing so. We'll see how that goes.

Well, Yfull list DF21 as 4100 years old, DF5 at 3,500 and FGC5780 at 3300 years old. I'm not worried whether oneillabu is right with 2000 years or Yfull with 3300. It's old.

Jean's historical model on another thread lists the following arrivals in Ireland:

8000-7000 BC Mesolithic hunter-gatherers via Britain

3800-3700 BC Neolithic farmers via Britain

2400 BC Copper Age bell beaker folk from western Iberia via the Atlantic, Brittany

2200 BC Iron Age bell beaker folk from the Rhine via Britain

300 BC La Tene Celts in the northern 2/3rds of Ireland, mainly from north Britain

100 BC Belgae from Britain

47-155 Brigantes from north Britain

81-211 Damnonii from Scotland

300-400 Cruithne from Scotland

Without getting bogged down in debating detail of Jean's model, an age of 3300 years fits in after the arrival of Iron Age bell beakers via the Rhine Ca 2200 BC.

While a few singleton DF21s, residents of the USA, claim Continental origins, we lack definitive and unambiguous that DF21 arose on the Continent. But Jean's model would make it so, and for some that is sufficient evidence.

The two known FGC5780 Septs, are O'Beirne of Roscommon and O'Cathain of Galway. That tends to support FGC5780 having an Irish ancestor who lived in pre-surname times.

The O'Beirne sept have been attached to the Ui Briuin genealogy, which chiefs they served. The O'Cathain sept, like their S5456 O'Mahon followers, have been attached to the Ui Fiachra Aidhne, which chiefs they served. The neighbouring Corcomroe Septs of O'Connor, O'Loughlin, MacCurtin, Davoren and Lydon, who all have elements with L1336, we're joined to the Clanna Rory pedigree, as were O'More and O'Lalor from The Seven Septs of Laois although Doolan, O'Kelly, Devoy were joined to the Laigin pedigree. Ely O'Carroll was joined to the Eoganacht and Dal gCas pedigree.

The tend appears to be that all noble but lower ranked clans were attached to the pedigree of those provincial dynasties ruling prior to the Anglo-Norman invasion. Those fabricated pedigrees are unravelling as DNA testing proceeds. Some would still cling to them. Others struggle to fit the pieces together where they really belong, based on DNA results.

And that creates a rich field for different views. This is a natural consequence. I had one fellow on DNA Forums, an Englishman who lamented being lumped with Irish and Scots in P312, then again in L21, and who yearned for a purebred Aryan-Anglo Subclade of L21. So when Kaptein from Netherlands tested DF21+, "Cotswold Hillbilly" (pseudonym) triumphantly hailed DF21 as "Germanic". Never mind that the Germanic speakers only took over northern Belgica (modern day Nederlands) in Roman times. Or that "England" did not exist then and had not a single Anglo resident at the time except perhaps slaves from Germania. Thus far DF21 remains Isles. It is possible that oneillabu and I broadly agree on that and some other rhings. I have tried in the past to reach out and establish some of these areas of broad agreement. We'll see how it goes this time.

oneillabu
12-20-2015, 06:42 PM
Hence the fatal attraction to singletons, it seems.

I seem to recall that you posted that my singleton O'Neill match was of Scottish gallowglass origin however that particular theory or yours is now is now in the bin because we now have a nice GD spread with two (soon to be three) other O'Neill(an) matches from around 700+ years, it would be nice if you would create a separate O'Neill cluster in L720 like I have requested three times because you seem to have no problem doing for your own O'Cathain cluster and others. There is so much undiscovered DNA out there that singleton's may (or may not) represent clusters, only time will tell like my own.

Incidentally how does speculation on an Italian match from years ago amount to a theory, I have long since ruled out a continental origin for DF21 however Bell Beaker arrival in Ireland around 2500 BC seems to fit the origin for proto DF21 so that is definitely a theory I subscribe to and this also may tie in with my Tuatha De Dannann / Ogham connection which I have never bullied anyone into accepting as you suggest however when a theory is subject to ridicule by a number of individuals you must respond in kind like I did with the Celtic Church connection to the Egyptian Copts in which I was proven correct so who is to say that the connection between Ogham stones and DF21 is not also correct.

Your post in FGC5780 is interesting but the distance of 35 at 111 markers is too far for any meaningful connection between the O'Beirne and O'Cathain septs other than confirming the ancient Irish origin of the cluster, in my opinion you need to try to pin down the timeframe for the common ancestor between kit number 169902 and the rest of the O'Cathain's by extending his markers to 111 because from previous experience I can tell you that 67 marker results can be very deceptive.

The new stream of SNP results are forcing all established theories to be re-visited and this is very fluid process which will no doubt change the perception of many of these established norms that are being constantly rehashed like "A recent study from Trinity College discovered" which was posted again a few months ago on the Irishcentral website despite this study being 11 years old before the discovery of the L21 SNP so I am quiet prepared to play the waiting game as the results roll in however I WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR FAIR PLAY FOR THE S5488 PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN BADLY TREATED BY THE DF21 PROJECT to ensure that this ancient group get their fair share of new results.

Rory Cain
12-20-2015, 08:01 PM
Oh well, I gave it a try as Mike wanted. I had also added Peter Biggins as an admin some time ago as oneillabu stated he would only work with Peter on S5488 stuff. Oneillabu can now no longer point the finger at me for S5488 stuff. He got the working partner he wanted. But I wonder how that relationship is going? Has the relationship soured and turned unproductive? That seems to be the inference. Wow, what a surprise. I guess Peter can only handle so much abuse too.

oneillabu
12-21-2015, 12:04 AM
Oh well, I gave it a try as Mike wanted. I had also added Peter Biggins as an admin some time ago as oneillabu stated he would only work with Peter on S5488 stuff. Oneillabu can now no longer point the finger at me for S5488 stuff. He got the working partner he wanted. But I wonder how that relationship is going? Has the relationship soured and turned unproductive? That seems to be the inference. Wow, what a surprise. I guess Peter can only handle so much abuse too.

I was under the impression that all DF21 admins were supposed to act in a fair and impartial manner towards everyone and not in their own self interests, I have NEVER CONTACTED Peter Biggins since he became an Admin of the project because I should not have to, I naturally presumed that S5488 would be treated the same as all other SNP's and I most certainly never stated that I would only work with him, I felt it would be in the interest of the project to have a person with the level of knowledge that had produced websites on both Clan Colla and O'Carroll of Ely who happen to be S5488 and might give this neglected SNP a voice within the project, if Peter canvassed for his own Clan Colla group with FTDNA then the best of luck to him, he is entitled to do so, he is not the one that has turned this project into such a one sided affair.

I should not have to be here on this forum looking for fair play, that should be a given, the L720 SNP was discovered nearly five years ago and yet it still has not graced the FTDNA tree and yet there are no fewer than 126 SNP's (some of them are even private) beginning with S5199 associated with your own DNA and the S5488 people have the grand total of one, the L130 SNP which was a mistake on your part because you thought it was on your own tree, do you honestly think that David Reynolds would have allowed HIS PROJECT to become such a one sided affair.

Once again I say to the other DF21 people who view this forum, log in to your MYFTDNA and look at the Haplotree and SNP's section if you doubt what I am saying and let your voice be heard for fair play and speak out against this farce of a project that has become the personal plaything of certain individuals.

TigerMW
12-21-2015, 12:19 AM
I was under the impression that all DF21 admins were supposed to act in a fair and impartial manner towards everyone and not in their own self interests, I have NEVER CONTACTED Peter Biggins since he became an Admin of the project because I should not have to, I naturally presumed that S5488 would be treated the same as all other SNP's and I most certainly never stated that I would only work with him, I felt it would be in the interest of the project to have a person with the level of knowledge that had produced websites on both Clan Colla and O'Carroll of Ely who happen to be S5488 and might give this neglected SNP a voice within the project, if Peter canvassed for his own Clan Colla group with FTDNA then the best of luck to him, he is entitled to do so, he is not the one that has turned this project into such a one sided affair.

I should not have to be here on this forum looking for fair play, that should be a given, the L720 SNP was discovered nearly five years ago and yet it still has not graced the FTDNA tree and yet there are no fewer than 126 SNP's (some of them are even private) beginning with S5199 associated with your own DNA and the S5488 people have the grand total of one, the L130 SNP which was a mistake on your part because you thought it was on your own tree, do you honestly think that David Reynolds would have allowed HIS PROJECT to become such a one sided affair.

Once again I say to the other DF21 people who view this forum, log in to your MYFTDNA and look at the Haplotree and SNP's section if you doubt what I am saying and let your voice be heard for fair play and speak out against this farce of a project that has become the personal plaything of certain individuals.
oneillabu, you can blame me. I have as much to do with the L21 haplotree and the L21 SNP Packs as anyone. From a Moderator perspective, this is warning. No more negative or inflammatory personal commentary. It's time to drop this.

Rory Cain
12-21-2015, 01:43 AM
Mike, instead of any of us criticising the current tree to which you contributed and the previous tree to which David contributed, we ought to be thanking you both for your efforts. David was absent from the DF21 Project for some 6 months working on the previous tree and only returned as the previous tree was posted. That indicates that he worked on it right up until the very eve of it being posted. Yes, it was imprefect and yes, David does share DYS393=14 with R-L130 but to suggest as one serial complainant does that David added L130 for that reason is very poor gratitude for David's incredible work ethic. One can see that the current tree to which you contributed relies heavily on Big Y results, and to that extent it rewards those who did Big Y. I have no problem with that. What else are FTDNA going to use?

Its hard to explain why the LSC with so many Big Ys still got neglected. I think perhaps because our good friend Alex had his nose to the grindstone maintaining his Big Tree. That's an unjust outcome and a poor reward for Alex's efforts on all our behalfs. A soldier looks after his buddy so I have presented Alex with a formal submission covering the first three generations of the LSC and kin, starting from FGC3213. Probably imperfect but Alex will fix that. You had already commented above that this section of the tree was very underdone. As I had no input into this or the previous Ytree, I must demur from stepping onto the stage and accepting any award which is rightfull yours and David's, despite oneillabu's generous and flattering words giving me all the credit. Thank you, Mike, David, Alex, Peter and the Yfull team for getting us this far. You have reversed the situation where FTDNA was irrelevant and ISOGG was the "go to" for current information. And FYDNA seems amenable to accepting changes, which didn't happen during the lifetime of the previous tree. The glass is much better than half full. I raise my glass in the direction of yourself, David, Alex, Peter and the Yfull team.

Nor should we leave you the task of amending the Ytree, by just sitting back and criticising and doing nothing constructive. It is up to all of us to contribute. Charles Fueston had to carry too much of the load at ISOGG. Now that ISOGG added much of the human Y-genome to a SNP blacklist, we need to work through FTDNA. We shouldnt leave it to the same small group of willing workers and then bitch about their honest efforts.

TigerMW
12-21-2015, 01:58 AM
Thanks for your compliments, but much (very much is left to be done).

... Its hard to explain why the LSC with so many Big Ys still got neglected. I think perhaps because our good friend Alex had his nose to the grindstone maintaining his Big Tree. That's an unjust outcome and a poor reward for Alex's efforts on all our behalfs. A soldier looks after his buddy so I have presented Alex with a formal submission covering the first three generations of the LSC and kin, starting from FGC3213. ..
LSC is in the queue. They will be last, with the rest of DF21, of L21 to be worked on by FTDNA. It's really just a matter of the timing of thing and who asked for what, when. We need to email off-line as I have some news and the original thinking that I tried to impart to FTDNA (which I think was Alex's idea) won't work as planned so they are working on alternative "B". DF21 still gets full coverage, though.

oneillabu
12-21-2015, 05:28 PM
oneillabu, you can blame me. I have as much to do with the L21 haplotree and the L21 SNP Packs as anyone. From a Moderator perspective, this is warning. No more negative or inflammatory personal commentary. It's time to drop this.

Fair enough, I take it then that the S5488 and other neglected DF21 people can expect this matter to be addressed soon which in the long run will benefit all DF21 people and in the future it will no doubt save a lot of people money by allowing for more accurate targeting of single SNP testing.

Rory Cain
12-22-2015, 04:12 AM
[Quote] Rory,
Finally! L1446-L1448 is in the FTDNA Tree. Thank you for all you did to help make this happen. Is there any new snps I need to test for my uncle?
Thanks
Ernest [Quote]

Now that's a man who it is a pleasure to assist. He was remarkably patient about his Walk The Y SNPs not being posted to his list of SNPs results from finch2, which we finally achieved years later. He was equally patient about getting his WTY SNPs onto the Ytree, which Thomas Krahn used to do immediately on finch2. They appear now. Ernest, it wasn't just me. Our old buddy Griff did the first draft of a SNP submission based on ISOGG requirements. From that start, that made it easy for me to add the final touches, plus the swag of newer SNPs that emerges from Griff & Mr Owen's Big Ys. You guys put in the effort, so you deserve reward for effort. It was a pleasure working with you. Come back any time!

oneillabu
12-23-2015, 01:16 AM
oneillabu, you can blame me. I have as much to do with the L21 haplotree and the L21 SNP Packs as anyone. From a Moderator perspective, this is warning. No more negative or inflammatory personal commentary. It's time to drop this.

As a matter of interest as someone with the inside track at FTDNA, can you explain why my Big Y matches have been reducing on a daily basis, they started out at 68 and now they have dropped dramatically to 42, this is insane stuff that makes no sense whatsoever.

Rory Cain
12-23-2015, 01:40 AM
With all the Big Y testing that the LSC have done, it was a poor reward that they were left off the first draft of the FTDNA Y-tree. As we know, Alex Williamson has been very bust maintaining his Big Tree, upon which much of the FTDNA tree is based. Alex has been like those selfless firefighters who leave their own home to go and defend someone else's home, only to return their own address at the end of the shift and find they have no home to go to. Thanks, Alex, for proof-reading my submission. I regretted having to hit you up with that task, but you know what they say, "Ask a busy man. The other fellow won't have the time."

The first three generations of FGC3213 are now on the FTDNA Ytree.

DF21_Monkey
12-23-2015, 04:24 PM
Oh well, I gave it a try as Mike wanted. I had also added Peter Biggins as an admin some time ago as oneillabu stated he would only work with Peter on S5488 stuff. Oneillabu can now no longer point the finger at me for S5488 stuff. He got the working partner he wanted. But I wonder how that relationship is going? Has the relationship soured and turned unproductive? That seems to be the inference. Wow, what a surprise. I guess Peter can only handle so much abuse too.

I was trying to find out about Clan Chieftains and surprised to see this.

dp
12-23-2015, 04:45 PM
withdrawn

oneillabu
12-23-2015, 10:31 PM
I was trying to find out about Clan Chieftains and surprised to see this.

So was I because it is nonsense as Peter Biggins can confirm, it is time to get back to why this thread was started so if anyone wants to post any theories they have regarding the Clan Chieftains feel free to do so.

oneillabu
12-29-2015, 03:45 PM
I have long since ruled out a continental origin for DF21 however Bell Beaker arrival in Ireland around 2500 BC seems to fit the origin for proto DF21 so that is definitely a theory I subscribe to and this also may tie in with my Tuatha De Dannann / Ogham connection which I have never bullied anyone into accepting as you suggest however when a theory is subject to ridicule by a number of individuals you must respond in kind like I did with the Celtic Church connection to the Egyptian Copts in which I was proven correct so who is to say that the connection between Ogham stones and DF21 is not also correct.



Rathlin1 man is dated to early Bronze Age and tested positive for R1b-DF21. With my theory proven correct (link below) then we know now who built the Dolmens and constructed the early Ogham writing associated with the Tuatha De Dannann and the fort of Eamhain Macha, now lets move on to the Trinity college Niall fairytale and then we are really making progress.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113.abstract

oneillabu
01-01-2016, 05:18 PM
oneillabu, you can blame me. I have as much to do with the L21 haplotree and the L21 SNP Packs as anyone.

I see that S5488 has finally made its way onto FTDNA's Y-Haplotree for which I am thankful however they seem to have been given an incomplete list of SNP's which excludes the following SNP's that are derived from BY518, S7200, S6003, Z29592, S6000, S20620, L720, all of these are associated with my own DNA cluster which seems to have been completely overlooked for some strange reason. Can you enlighten me as to who provided FTDNA with this list and why these glaring omissions were made because after all L720 has been a recognised SNP for nearly five years.

David Mc
01-01-2016, 10:04 PM
Rathlin1 man is dated to early Bronze Age and tested positive for R1b-DF21. With my theory proven correct (link below) then we know now who built the Dolmens and constructed the early Ogham writing associated with the Tuatha De Dannann and the fort of Eamhain Macha, now lets move on to the Trinity college Niall fairytale and then we are really making progress.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113.abstract

The only thing the linked paper proves you right in is an earlier presence of DF21 in the Isles than some of us would have expected. I leaned towards its arrival in with the movement of Belgic tribes before and after the time of Christ. In fact, DF21 seems to have arrived at the very beginning of the IE incursions into the Isles. So let's leave behind Tuatha Dé Danann fairy tales (which wouldn't reflect the first wave of Celtic speakers anyway) and enjoy what we have: substantive evidence of the Celtic (proto-Celtic?) peoples as a newly intrusive presence in the British Isles. That is no small thing at all. And congratulations to all of you in the DF21 bracket-- it has been an especially remarkable year for you!

oneillabu
01-02-2016, 01:42 AM
So let's leave behind Tuatha Dé Danann fairy tales (which wouldn't reflect the first wave of Celtic speakers anyway)

To do this is to ignore a vast amount of evidence that states otherwise, never in the history of mankind has a vanquished foe been revered for thousands of years afterwards. The name Eire used to represent Ireland today stems from Eriu one of the three Three sisters of the Tuatha De Dannan while the others Banba and Fodhla are also mentioned over two thousand years after their supposed demise for example the Lebor Na gCeart dating from the 5th Century AD mentions the Children of Banba.

One of the Maguire Chieftains in the 16th Century named his Wolfhound after the Tuatha De Danann, these ancient people I believe are one and the same with the Sons of Mil and the whole story of their demise (which is a fairytale) was concocted by the Religious scribes because of their Pagan origins which needed to be incorporated into the new Christianity somehow.

The Ogham writing which dates from the 1st BC is linked to the Tuatha De Danann and this is very real physical evidence and has definite links to DF21 hotspots and this ancient form of writing was even brought to Wales and Cornwall by them, if you think that these DF21 people from 2000 years ago were not of a cultured and Royal people then you are wrong, just look at these magnificent Gold items shown in the link below that we can now associate with the DF21 people due to the date of their origin, also we have the ancient Royal site of Eamhain Macha where excavations have shown an earlier structure dating to around 2000 BC existed, the stories in the Ulster Cycle in my opinion are all referencing these early Royal people, this list goes on, so in answer your question about ignoring the Tuatha De Danann I would have to say an emphatic NO is my answer.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/gold-hoard-thrown-in-skip-displayed-26784372.html

TigerMW
01-02-2016, 04:01 AM
I see that S5488 has finally made its way onto FTDNA's Y-Haplotree for which I am thankful however they seem to have been given an incomplete list of SNP's which excludes the following SNP's that are derived from BY518, S7200, S6003, Z29592, S6000, S20620, L720, all of these are associated with my own DNA cluster which seems to have been completely overlooked for some strange reason. Can you enlighten me as to who provided FTDNA with this list and why these glaring omissions were made because after all L720 has been a recognised SNP for nearly five years.
I think there are a couple of people working on this along with other things. Despite what tree branching is submitted to them, FTDNA treats their haplotree like a formal tree and do their own proofs/verification themselves.

Patience... Rome was not built in a day.

David Mc
01-02-2016, 06:58 AM
if you think that these DF21 people from 2000 years ago were not of a cultured and Royal people then you are wrong, just look at these magnificent Gold items shown in the link below that we can now associate with the DF21 people due to the date of their origin, also we have the ancient Royal site of Eamhain Macha where excavations have shown an earlier structure dating to around 2000 BC existed, the stories in the Ulster Cycle in my opinion are all referencing these early Royal people, this list goes on, so in answer your question about ignoring the Tuatha De Danann I would have to say an emphatic NO is my answer.[/url]

The problem I have with all of this is your defining it as "evidence." I am familiar with the Book of Conquests and with the mythic origins of the name Ériu. That's hardly evidence. A 16th century Maguire chieftain naming his dog after a mythological personage is also, looking through my lenses anyway, not evidence. As for ogham everything points to its originating sometime around the 4th century AD. Not sure how that is supposed to factor in. No one has denied that the Bronze Age was a good time to be Irish, wealth-wise, but what does that have to do with proving the existence of the Tuatha Dé Danann?

One line stands out in your response, and it deserves a direct answer in kind. You write: "if you think that these DF21 people from 2000 years ago were not of a cultured and Royal people then you are wrong."

Of course I don't believe the DF21 people were "of a cultured and royal people! Do you actually believe that? I'm sure some of them were royal (or at least chieftains) just as surely some of them were simple pig farmers, as will be true of every other haplogroup in Ireland. There is no such thing as a royal race (with apologies to the Clan Gregor).

oneillabu
01-03-2016, 12:47 AM
but what does that have to do with proving the existence of the Tuatha Dé Danann?

The Romans worshipped the Gods such as Apollo, Mars, Venus etc, does this mean that these Gods existed? The answer is NO, does this mean that the Romans existed, the answer is YES as we all know.

According to the Ogham Tract the origin of the Ogham language is attributed to the Tuatha De Danann God Ogma, does this mean that the God Ogma existed, again the answer is NO of course however to suggest that these Gods just existed and no one actually worshipped them is ridiculous, it is quiet clear that a people known as the Tuatha De Dannan were recognised at this period before they were turned into supernatural beings by the later Religious scribes, according to Dr James Carney he believes the invention of Ogham dates from the 1st century BC and the early writings were on perishable materials that did not survive, this scenario makes perfect sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogma




One line stands out in your response, and it deserves a direct answer in kind. You write: "if you think that these DF21 people from 2000 years ago were not of a cultured and Royal people then you are wrong."

Of course I don't believe the DF21 people were "of a cultured and royal people! Do you actually believe that? I'm sure some of them were royal (or at least chieftains) just as surely some of them were simple pig farmers, as will be true of every other haplogroup in Ireland. There is no such thing as a royal race (with apologies to the Clan Gregor).



To make magnificent items such as the Gold Lunula and Sun Discs requires a very cultured people, maybe they kept a few pigs as well because I guess they had to eat but to ignorant pig farmers, I think not, regarding the Royal blood line, well a Regal list of Kings is given in various ancient manuscripts dating from this early period, Royal sites such as Cruachain and Eamhain Macha were used by such a people and this bloodline spawned not just the Kings of Ireland but Scotland as well, you give the example of Clan Gregor, do they not claim their Race is Royal due to their link to Irish Kings? I suggest you read the 1450 MS which is the oldest surviving list of pedigrees for the Scottish Clans.
[/QUOTE]

David Mc
01-03-2016, 02:25 AM
The Romans worshipped the Gods such as Apollo, Mars, Venus etc, does this mean that these Gods existed? The answer is NO, does this mean that the Romans existed, the answer is YES as we all know.

For this argument to make sense I would have had to denied the existence of DF21. I didn't. I argued that the Tuatha Dé Danann are a mythological people. The Romans were real; their gods weren't. DF21 is real; their gods weren't.


... however to suggest that these Gods just existed and no one actually worshipped them is ridiculous...

Who exactly suggested this?


To make magnificent items such as the Gold Lunula and Sun Discs requires a very cultured people, maybe they kept a few pigs as well because I guess they had to eat but to ignorant pig farmers, I think not, regarding the Royal blood line...

This is where I'll probably exit the roundabout. I'm sure there is an appeal to the idea that your ancestors became the gods that the rest of the Irish worshiped, and that they were, all of them, princes and kings. I'm also aware of your attempts to make all of the king lists conform to DF21 surnames. But that isn't how history or human cultures work. Behind every king and artisan there are hundreds of commoners and slaves. There were doubtlessly powerful DF21 kings/chieftains. There were hundreds of more uncouth DF21 pig farmers. Because that's how things work. In every culture and tribe and haplogroup. If we can't agree on that common ground, I'm not sure how fruitful discussion is even possible.

oneillabu
01-03-2016, 03:36 PM
This is where I'll probably exit the roundabout. I'm sure there is an appeal to the idea that your ancestors became the gods that the rest of the Irish worshiped, and that they were, all of them, princes and kings. I'm also aware of your attempts to make all of the king lists conform to DF21 surnames.


Of course I never suggested that my ancestors were Gods, it is ridiculous to even think that, Princes and Kings matched to ancient pedigrees is a different story however, shown below is a list of very real such Kings dating from around 600 BC according to the Annals of the Four Masters, all the evidence points to L720 as the line of Fergus Mor Mac Erc who according to some pedigrees has a Brother who was the ancestor of the O'Neill's, a credible genetic distance from 400 AD to the present day at 111 markers would be around 19 with a plus or minus of 2, in other words we would be looking at a range of between 17 and 21 giving an average of 19.

There are two distinct separate lines for L720, one with a DYS464a value of 14 and a DYS444 value of 13 which is of early Irish origin with a Dal Fiatach name of Driscol and also contains a large number of ancient Scottish surnames associated with the 1450 MS, exactly as the pedigrees from Fergus Mor Mac Erc state.

The other line to date consists of three people with variations of the O'Neill surname who have the normal value of 12 for DYS444 and a value of 15 for DYS464a, here are some GD's from these separate lines at 111 markers

Driscol to O'Neill 1 = 20
Driscol to O'Neill 2 = 21
Driscol to O'Neill 3 = 17

Now lets look at the point in time where Driscol matches the Scottish names

Driscol to McLellan of Uist = 19

Here are other surnames for this L720 Scottish cluster who have not tested to 111 markers

Clan Chattan
Four McIntosh, one McPherson, one Davidson

Gilla Iosa Gille Chattan (Gillis)

6 matches

Clan McNab

Two McLellan's from both Norh and South Uist

One Weir


Clan McInnes of Iona
Eight McInnes matches

Lord of the Isles McDonald (related to Clan McInnes)

Three McDonald's and one McCaul

Siol Gillivray

Five Morrow matches

Given the ancient and rare nature of L720 there is simply no way all of these could be a coincidence



The consistency here is very apparent and clearly indicates a point of origin for two Brothers in exactly the time frame given for the Dal Riada migration of Fergus Mor Mac Erc

So what is the distance between the three O'Neill's

O'Neill 1 to O'Neill 2 = 12
O'Neill 1 to O'Neill 3 = 14

Although a small sample this indicates a common ancestor around the 10th Century which is when the first use of the O'Neill surname took place.

I realise that there is much to do here but the indications are very good indeed so to suggest that I am indulging in some conceited vain project trying to associate myself with ancient Royalty is way off the mark, I am simply following the evidence trail and looking for answers like any proper researcher would do.




Ugaine More (Owynie the great) 66th Monarch
Gobhthach Caol-Bhreagh 69th Monarch Laoghair Lorck Brother of Caol-Bhreagh
Cobthach Prince Rechtaid Rígderg ("red king"),
Meilge Molbthach 71st Monarch
Iarn Gleofathach 74th Monarch
Conla Caomh 76th Monarch
Oilioll Caishiadclach 77th Monarch
Eochadh Altleathan 228
Aongus Tuirimheach 81st Monarch also had a Son Fiacha Fearmara from whom stem the Dal Riada below in blue (229 BC Approx)
Fiacha Fearmara (This pedigree iis taken from the book of Ballymote)
Ailill Erand
Feradach
Forgo
Maine
Arnail
Ro-Thrir
Trir
Ro-Sin
Sin
Deda mac Sin
Íar mac Dedad
Ailill
Eogan
Edersceal 95th Monarch
Conaire Mor 97th Monarch
Daire Dornmor
Coirpre Crom-chend
Mug-lama
Conaire Coem (Conaire the second) 111th Monarch descended from Fiacha Fearmara
Cairbre Riada was the first king of Dalriada in Scotland (Irish, meaning Riada's share or portion)
KIONGA, Next King of Dalriada
FELIM LAMH-FOIDH, King of Dalriada
EOCHY FORTAMAIL
FERGUS UALLACH
AENEAS FEAST
EOCHY MUN-REANHUR
EORC
EORCA (or EARCA), married Muirredach son of Eoghan (or Eugene).
FERGUS MOR MAC EORCA, the first absolute King of Scotland of the Milesian race. He was killed while fighting against the Romans in 404 A.D

Peter MacDonald
01-09-2016, 05:37 PM
Oneillabu, just wondering how far back you have traced your direct paternal ancestral line through a paper trail?

Heber
02-03-2016, 08:05 PM
Recording Ogham Stones in 3D

An information session about recording Ogham Stones in 3D was organized by Oidhreacht Chorca Dhuibhne late last year in Ballyferriter. The event was held to gauge if a proposal to establish a community project that would record the ogham stones of West Kerry in 3D was viable. In this report Isabel Bennettt, curator of the West Kerry Museum and Nora White from the Institute of Advanced Studies explain the project, it's objectives and the proposed input from the community.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0IXnbo6gV24

I understand that these stones are a mixture of territory and grave markers. What are the ethics of excavating and testing any bones which may be found presumably of chiefly lines.
In any event a good example of a crowd sourced community citizen science project.

westernisles
02-11-2016, 04:45 PM
RGM is right here. Thanks for making the correction.

All of the current chiefs of the various branches of Clan Donald are R1a except for the descendants of the last Glencoe chief who are R1b, the R1a line being broken at one point but they don't know when. Somerled, grandfather of Donald "Eponymous" from whom the Clan takes it name, was R1a and considered of Norse descent. Most of his STR signature is known today and can be seen on Clan Donald DNA Project's site.

Rory Cain
02-13-2016, 09:09 PM
Various sources make various statements about either "three or "most" or even "all current" Clan Donald chiefs being R1a. It might be useful to know who they were. Judging from the quote below, Clanranald and Keppoch may be two of the three, and it seems that in their cases, even cadet branches can be identified. It may be that Macdonald of Sleat was the third when people refer to the testing of three Clan Donald chiefs. For such a big clan with so many branches, three R1a Clan Donald chiefs sounds a bit short of the expected total. So were the others:
a. not R1a, like Glencoe, who tested as R1b;
b. not tested,
c. extinct, as I understand may be the case with the Lords of Islay?

Where the chief refused to test, or the chiefly line is extinct, it is still useful to know for instance, that men bearing the name of the related sept MacAllister also tested R1a, as did men named MacEachern and a McDougal. While not disputing the R1a results, it would be nice to have a summary of who these Clan Donald chiefs were and a less rubbery figure of how many, "three", "all current" etc.

"Just as importantly the existing mutations at 25 and 37 markers all
are consistent with the published modal values and permit us to
confidently assert that no mutations had appeared in either the
Clanranald or Keppoch chief lines before at least specific chiefs in
the mid 16th century. We also can, for example, distinguish between
Bohuntin line Keppochs and Achnacoichean line Keppochs. We can also
distinguish among Bornish,Glenaladale,and Milton line Clanranalds using
that published signature. Although each of these lines descend from
John, Lord of the Isles circa 1330 to 1380, the Sykes study which
independently concluded that my three chiefs, another Clan Donald chief,
the Mac Allister chief,and a large number of MacDougals are all of
common descent using the Oxford 10 markers further supports my Somerled
markers. I agree that to be precise to cover the potential for a
mutation in the generations Somerled,Ranald,Donald, Angus Mor, Angus Og,
and John from whom my samples of known pedigree descend, I need some R1a
MacDougalls and MacAllister samples(Dougal descended from Ranald:
Alister from Angus Mor)."

MacUalraig
02-14-2016, 08:46 AM
Various sources make various statements about either "three or "most" or even "all current" Clan Donald chiefs being R1a. It might be useful to know who they were. Judging from the quote below, Clanranald and Keppoch may be two of the three, and it seems that in their cases, even cadet branches can be identified. It may be that Macdonald of Sleat was the third when people refer to the testing of three Clan Donald chiefs. For such a big clan with so many branches, three R1a Clan Donald chiefs sounds a bit short of the expected total. So were the others:
a. not R1a, like Glencoe, who tested as R1b;
b. not tested,
c. extinct, as I understand may be the case with the Lords of Islay?

Where the chief refused to test, or the chiefly line is extinct, it is still useful to know for instance, that men bearing the name of the related sept MacAllister also tested R1a, as did men named MacEachern and a McDougal. While not disputing the R1a results, it would be nice to have a summary of who these Clan Donald chiefs were and a less rubbery figure of how many, "three", "all current" etc.

"Just as importantly the existing mutations at 25 and 37 markers all
are consistent with the published modal values and permit us to
confidently assert that no mutations had appeared in either the
Clanranald or Keppoch chief lines before at least specific chiefs in
the mid 16th century. We also can, for example, distinguish between
Bohuntin line Keppochs and Achnacoichean line Keppochs. We can also
distinguish among Bornish,Glenaladale,and Milton line Clanranalds using
that published signature. Although each of these lines descend from
John, Lord of the Isles circa 1330 to 1380, the Sykes study which
independently concluded that my three chiefs, another Clan Donald chief,
the Mac Allister chief,and a large number of MacDougals are all of
common descent using the Oxford 10 markers further supports my Somerled
markers. I agree that to be precise to cover the potential for a
mutation in the generations Somerled,Ranald,Donald, Angus Mor, Angus Og,
and John from whom my samples of known pedigree descend, I need some R1a
MacDougalls and MacAllister samples(Dougal descended from Ranald:
Alister from Angus Mor)."

Bryan Sykes enumerated the ones he tested in his book 'Adam's Curse' ch. 16 The Y Chromosome of Somhairle Mor:

Sir Ian Macdonald of Sleat
Ranald Macdonald of Clanranald
William McAlester of Loup
Ranald MacDonell of Glengarry
Lord Macdonald
...'they did indeed all share the same Y chromosome'

p221

castle3
02-14-2016, 10:23 AM
I've noticed some posters mentioning Fergus and Dalriada in connection to Argyll. I should mention that many modern authors, including Clarkson and McHardy, have cast huge doubts on that particular origin-legend. On the contrary, they suggest that influence was largely from Scotland into Antrim. Propagandists were at work even in those days, making claims to justify control of rival territories. The Pictish king lists are riddled with problems.
I think several clans will have to consider rewriting their histories in the coming years!
I mention the above as I believe there has been far too much reliance on early medieval docs that were 'altered' in later centuries. Source material needs to be evaluated before taking it as gospel.

Rory Cain
02-14-2016, 08:24 PM
Bryan Sykes enumerated the ones he tested in his book 'Adam's Curse' ch. 16 The Y Chromosome of Somhairle Mor:

Sir Ian Macdonald of Sleat
Ranald Macdonald of Clanranald
William McAlester of Loup
Ranald MacDonell of Glengarry
Lord Macdonald
...'they did indeed all share the same Y chromosome'

p221

Thanks MacUalraig. That clears up part of what I was asking- exactly who tested. It looks like representatives of Clan Donald North. And it looks like Clan Donald North is R1a. I guess the by default it also answers who didn't test, and that looks like Clan Donald South, less Glencoe who tested but was R1b. Versus Glencoe, McAlester was R1a. That leaves an unanswered question about the other chiefs of Clan Donald South- MacIain of Ardnamurchan, the Lords of Islay, the McDonnells of Antrim, etc.

Rory Cain
02-14-2016, 08:48 PM
I've noticed some posters mentioning Fergus and Dalriada in connection to Argyll. I should mention that many modern authors, including Clarkson and McHardy, have cast huge doubts on that particular origin-legend. On the contrary, they suggest that influence was largely from Scotland into Antrim. Propagandists were at work even in those days, making claims to justify control of rival territories. The Pictish king lists are riddled with problems.
I think several clans will have to consider rewriting their histories in the coming years!
I mention the above as I believe there has been far too much reliance on early medieval docs that were 'altered' in later centuries. Source material needs to be evaluated before taking it as gospel.

Some 'solutions' to genetic problems received so much attention from the pulp-mill press as to be firmly fixed in the popular imagination. I immediately think of three. Rivers running red with blood as Anglo-Saxons killed every Celt. We now know the English are as mixed-breed as any other nation. "Norman" is ready-made solution to any genetic problem. "Milesian" and "Dal Riata" seem to infer some status of superiority. Most modern writers accept that the Milesian myth is political propaganda and that there were a lot more interactions between what are now Ireland and Scotland that just the Dal Riata.
The fiction of the Book of Invasions lost interest for me long ago. We don't have a single comprehensive source to replace it, but the DNA and archeological discoveries spread across articles in less well known publications are worth the effort of searching. I confess my primary interest is the R-DF21 clade and with 4,000 years of residence in Scotland and Ireland, medieval source are far too late to do it justice. DF21 survived in two main pockets, in Central Scotland and the mid-west of Ireland where they predate the adoption of surnames and the widescale fabrication of pedigrees in the medieval period. This earlier world is hard to penetrate, thanks to the political propaganda of the medieval era, but it's also a more interesting and rewarding world. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

ARR
02-14-2016, 11:36 PM
Ui Bairrche Mag Airget Rois: not known. This branch expanded well west into Munster at least twice in their history and may well have been incorporated into fabricated pedigrees as Munstermen...


Rory,
I don't know if the Ui Bairrche Mag Airget Rois overlap with the Ui Duach or not, but the description you give is very much in line with that of the Ui Duach - pasted below.

From Onomasticon Goedelicum [http://publish.ucc.ie/doi/locus/U]: ui duach
in connection with Airget Rois, Ll. 320, 321; ¶ rí Óa nDuach Arcatrois, Ui.; ¶ in N. Ossory, F., Fg.; ¶ in Ossory, F., Fg., Tp., Fir. 627, 605, Lec. 423; ¶ of the plain of Airgedros, X. 159, Fir. 751, 780, Fep., Mi., Ui.; ¶ an Inquisition of year 1635 shows it to be co-ext. with b. of Fassaghdineen, c. Kilk.; ¶ dry. Ui Duach contained 22 pp., all b. of Fassachdinin, parts of bb. Galmoy and Crannagh, c. Kilk., and part of b. Clarmally, Queen's co., Tax. of an. 1312, Kj. i. 231; ¶ al. the wide plain of r. Nore, Tp., Bran. 153.
ui duach
Tech Fingin in Ui D., in Mun. (Mun. held Ossory for some time), Fer. 197, St. B. 397; ¶ seems same as Ui Duach of Ossory.
ui duach
in Connacht, Hz. 17, Hym. 37; ¶ sept of Ui Maine, Im.

My interest being that my working hypothesis for my family's Irish origins is that we are linked to St Rodan/Ruadan/Ruadhan, whose ancestors were of the Ui Duach of northern Kilkenny/Laois border, and who is known for the Cursing of Tara and the Abbey at Lorrha in Tipperary. It is also said that 2 of his sons? went to Iona with Columba. Note that my relative is the "Reddin" of the LSC, except that he does not carry S190, only + to S424. Some call him the Little Scottish Cousin but I prefer little Irish Cousin!

The Irish locations for Reddin/Rodans and variants are generally Co Laois, northern Tipperary and Co Clare; also Dublin but at least some of those families came from Tipperary/Laois/Offaly. We do not yet have yDNA from the family in Co Clare but I'll be surprised if they do not match, based on physical characteristics, personalities, occupations, etc. We do match with Reddins from Dublin who were earlier in Tipperary [dopplegangers for the Reddans living next door to the ruins of the Abbey to this day.]. And a match with a Roden from the southern US, with an Irish tradition.

Don't know if this means anything or not but figured I'd throw it out there as part of this very interesting discussion!Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a who lot more known about the Ui Duach, other than the link to St Rodan and their movement westward through to Co. Clare fairly early on.

Rory Cain
02-15-2016, 06:37 AM
An inevitable consequence of people focussing on the big names like the mythical Milesians or the Dal Riata, etc. is that smaller septs have been overlooked. The Ui Duach have their own story to tell. It may involve some twists and turns. Professor Padraig MacCarthaigh's 'Naoimh ages Laoich na Feoire' short history of Ossory stated: "It is that Cucraidhe, son of Duach of Cliu, who occupied that territory in spite of the sons of Condla, son of Breasal Bairrech; it was he who killed the chief of Ui Duach. Principle tribes of Ossory then were the Ui Bairrche, Ui Duach..."

What seems to have happened here is that a Corcu Laidhe sept, later attached to the Eoganacht pedigree as the Ui Duach, advanced against the Ossory and Ui Bairrche as far as Moy Airget Rois, the Plain of Silverwood, which thereafter became known as Ban O Duach, from the branch of the Corcu Laidhe led by Cucraidhe Mac Duach, who overran this district and became known as the Eoghanacht Rois-Airget. Cucraidhe's father was attached to the Eoganacht pedigree as a cousin of Corc.

What we don't know for certain is the Y-DNA of any of these septs. The leading sept of the Eoganacht were the McCarthy kings of Desmond. The McCarthy Mor line died out but septs of McCarthy Reagh and McCarthy Muskerry have been identified as DF21 > FGC3213 > P314.2 > L362. Many of their subordinate septs were R-CTS4466, so the Eoganacht dynasty apparently incorporated their followers into their own genealogy. Some consider the Corcu Laidhe to most likely have been R-CTS4466. Others note that the leading Corcu Liadhe sept, O'Driscoll, has a large component of haplogroup I which distinguishes them. Corcu Laidhe Y-DNA seems to be whatever ayone wants to make it. So if the Ui Duach were Corcu Laidhe, that may not lead us any closer to establishing their Y-DNA. But you appear to be right about the Ui Bairrche Mag Airget Rois overlapping with the Ui Duach. It appears that they did, but as rivals for the same patch of ground. That is very much the story of Ossory as a whole.

Heber
02-15-2016, 11:50 AM
My interest being that my working hypothesis for my family's Irish origins is that we are linked to St Rodan/Ruadan/Ruadhan, whose ancestors were of the Ui Duach of northern Kilkenny/Laois border, and who is known for the Cursing of Tara and the Abbey at Lorrha in Tipperary. It is also said that 2 of his sons? went to Iona with Columba. Note that my relative is the "Reddin" of the LSC, except that he does not carry S190, only + to S424. Some call him the Little Scottish Cousin but I prefer little Irish Cousin!

The Irish locations for Reddin/Rodans and variants are generally Co Laois, northern Tipperary and Co Clare; also Dublin but at least some of those families came from Tipperary/Laois/Offaly. We do not yet have yDNA from the family in Co Clare but I'll be surprised if they do not match, based on physical characteristics, personalities, occupations, etc. We do match with Reddins from Dublin who were earlier in Tipperary [dopplegangers for the Reddans living next door to the ruins of the Abbey to this day.]. And a match with a Roden from the southern US, with an Irish tradition.

Don't know if this means anything or not but figured I'd throw it out there as part of this very interesting discussion!Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a who lot more known about the Ui Duach, other than the link to St Rodan and their movement westward through to Co. Clare fairly early on.

ARR,

My closest match on Big Y is Rowan and we believe there is a connection with Ruadhan of Lorrha.
We are under the branch S5456 under DF21.

My ancestors were in Lorrha in the 17th C and a branch were resettled in Clonfert, Co. Galway in Cromwells time and returned to Lorrha in the 19th C.
The Corcorans are recorded in the Plains of Birr, close to Lorrha in the 14th C and are were a sept of the Ely O Carroll.
So I am interested in this line of research.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/corcoran-clan/

ARR
02-15-2016, 01:05 PM
An inevitable consequence of people focussing on the big names like the mythical Milesians or the Dal Riata, etc. is that smaller septs have been overlooked. The Ui Duach have their own story to tell. It may involve some twists and turns. Professor Padraig MacCarthaigh's 'Naoimh ages Laoich na Feoire' short history of Ossory stated: "It is that Cucraidhe, son of Duach of Cliu, who occupied that territory in spite of the sons of Condla, son of Breasal Bairrech; it was he who killed the chief of Ui Duach. Principle tribes of Ossory then were the Ui Bairrche, Ui Duach..."

What seems to have happened here is that a Corcu Laidhe sept, later attached to the Eoganacht pedigree as the Ui Duach, advanced against the Ossory and Ui Bairrche as far as Moy Airget Rois, the Plain of Silverwood, which thereafter became known as Ban O Duach, from the branch of the Corcu Laidhe led by Cucraidhe Mac Duach, who overran this district and became known as the Eoghanacht Rois-Airget. Cucraidhe's father was attached to the Eoganacht pedigree as a cousin of Corc.

Thanks for this Rory. Re timeframe - the Ui Duach are placed in "their" territory in Ossory as far back as Patrick's time but the intrusion you mention apparently took place "about the middle of the fifth century" so one does not necessarily negate the other. Most references just use "ancient times" for the Ui Duach being in Ossory. I also found references suggesting that part of Ossory is sometimes referred to as being in Munster - timeframe dependent.

The main family attached to the Ui Duach seem to be the O'Brennans but last time I checked none had tested [been a while though so I'll see if I can find anything now].

ARR
02-15-2016, 01:14 PM
Gerard,
I've always kept an eye out for Rowans for the reason you mention. They do seem to show up in same places as the Reddins [or variants] and in the same places connected to St Rodan, including of course at Lorrha. I was disappointed with those yDNA results as I had hoped it would help but no such luck. We need results from some O'Brennans and from Reddans in Clare. I've tried to get the latter to test but no takers to this point.

If the Ui Duach were indeed of Corcu Laidh that would seem to diminish our common hypothesis, at least as it applies to there being a direct male line back to St Rodan/Ruadhan.

ARR
02-15-2016, 03:30 PM
Thanks for this Rory. Re timeframe - the Ui Duach are placed in "their" territory in Ossory as far back as Patrick's time but the intrusion you mention apparently took place "about the middle of the fifth century" so one does not necessarily negate the other. Most references just use "ancient times" for the Ui Duach being in Ossory. I also found references suggesting that part of Ossory is sometimes referred to as being in Munster - timeframe dependent.

The main family attached to the Ui Duach seem to be the O'Brennans but last time I checked none had tested [been a while though so I'll see if I can find anything now].

Still no sign of yDNA from the Ossary O'Brennans.

I have however, found many references which seem to place doubt on the Ui Duach not being from Ossory more anciently than the mid 400s. In a nutshell, it seems the Corcu Laidhe connection may be via the mother of St Ciaran who, with Lugaidh [son of Ruman Duach from whom is derived Ui Duach] were parents of St Ciaran. Ruman Duach is listed as the 9th King of Ossory, c. 375 AD. Hogan's "St Ciaran, Patron of Ossory" [google books] has more.

Rory Cain
02-15-2016, 09:53 PM
Don't worry too much about Munster or Leinster. DF21 formed a sort of "Middle Kingdom' as the Chinese called it, or "Middle Earth"if you prefer The Lord of The Rings. This "Middle Kingdom" of DF21 sat right in the middle of present-day Connaught, Munster and Leinster and included the frontier districts of those three modernday provinces. The borders pushed either way, with DF21 resisting being incoprorated into their neighbours. Ossory changed hands repeatedly between Munster and Leinster, but always remained fiercely independent whenever they could, as did the Ciannachta of Eile. It seeems that around the edges, parcels of DF21 ultimately had no choice but to align themselves with their more powerful neighbours, or found advantage in doing so. The DF21 "Middle Kingdom" appears to have had quite a good working relationship with the Connachta, serving as their fianna or militia, some being rewarded with swordland as far away as Bregia in Meath and Airghialla in south Ulster.

Munster is such a checkerboard that it may well have been that the most southerly of the DF21 "Middle Kingdom" possibly occupied Cashel, just as the Eile also occupied Thurles (Durlas Eile) just to its north. There are hints, such as the predigree joining the Eoganachta Caiseal to the Ciannachta Eile, that rulers of the P314.2+ branch of DF21 became Kings of the Eoganachta and incorporated R-CTS4466 and other Munster clans under them.

In Leinster it was different again, with endless hostility between the Z255 Ui Cinnsealaigh or Southern Laigin and the DF21 Ui Dunlaing or Northern Laigin. Notwithstanding that hostility, the Ui Cinnsealaigh could not admit regular defeats by "commoners" so incorporated the Northern Laigin into their own genealogical scheme, along with the Ossory, whose chief sept, Fitzpatrick, appears to be Z255 also.

So where does this leave the Ui Duach.I'm not sure, but here is a listing of their septs, if that helps:
"The Kilkenny Journal of Archaeology (i. 240) describes various septs of the Ui Duach. Clann Amhlaibh (Clan Awly of Ui Duach) held the lands of Kyledonoghouekilly, Cruitt, Loyne, and Kilnabolyskeahanagh. Clann mic Conill held Kildergan alias Uskerty, Arderey, Cúlbán and Smittestown. Clann c. mhic Kelowe, alias Clann mhic Gillenanaomh held Croghtenely alias Achevonky, Monynerow and Clonyne. Clann Muirchertaigh held Rath-cally, Kilrobbin alias Rath Tomyne, Ballenchomoe, Ballyhomyne alias Dúnegid, Ballene alias Newtown, the Skeahanagh, Moy-howregh, Dromachedogher, Knockan na Shynagh, Dromgoly."

As you have possibly gathered from the above, I am finding modern province names and modern surnames, both of which developed much later, of little help as a description of where DF21 were, and who they were. So I'm discarding a lot of that to focus on the Y-DNA. A DF21+ "Middle Kingdom" makes sense, at least to me. Probably not a single united kingdom but a cluster of mini-kingdoms. Now I have to make sense of the mix of DF21 sub-clades: DF5 in the Seven Septs of Laois, the O'Cathains of Galway, the O'Beirne Roscommon Cluster and the O'Donoghue Mor; L1336 amongst the chief septs of Corcomroe and The Burren; S5488 in Ely O'Carroll and O'Meagher; P314.2 in the most important chiefs of the Eoganachta, McCarthy; and interesting ittle clusters of L130 and S5456 whose surnames appear too mixed to make a definite call. Plus the interesting case of Reddin, kind of pre-Little Scottish Cluster. Don't worry about that name. The LSC includes Cains of the Isle of Man, who are LSC. Dr Jim Wilson identifies the LSC's SNP with the Maetae, a tribe who inhabited east Stirlingshire. Some geographical alignment there as the LSC appear to be the easternmost branch of DF21. Your line must have split off at a very early date.

ARR
02-15-2016, 10:25 PM
Your line must have split off at a very early date.

Alex has the LSC proper deviating from mine roughly 2k yrs ago. Thing is my family's tradition is that we are Irish, not Scottish [I realize traditions are just that however]. There are Reddens around Kelso on the Scottish borders - a Bronze age cist was found on their farm which apparently - the farm that is - has been in the family for a long time [documents as early as 1200s]. None have tested yet so I can't say for sure we are not related, but I'm not sure how that would connect to the Strathclyde. And our closest matches are Irish - not that there are many of them. Documents confirm Reddins in Laois at least as far back as 1600s [rebels] and in Clare to the 1300s. I'm not aware of a link from Strathclyde over to Ireland as part of Scottish history, but there are ways it could go the other direction. I don't think Wilson has definitely declared a Maetae connection. My understanding is that they were a confederation of "tribes" so would have a mixed yDNA.

Heber
02-15-2016, 10:36 PM
The Middle Kingdom or Midlands of Ireland contained a high concentration of Monastic Settlements.
Here are some of the surnames of the region.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-midlands-surnames/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-clans-ely-o-carroll/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-clans-kennedy/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-clans-egan/

ARR
02-15-2016, 11:06 PM
Yes it did Gerard. I find the monastic history of Ireland quite fascinating - the politics of it all!!

The other thing that too often gets overlooked is the impact of women in this whole thing. There doesn't seem to be a lot of acknowledgement that allegiances were not always to the family of the father. I hope that down the road people won't be told they don't belong to a particular sept simply because they do not carry the "right" yDNA.

Rory Cain
02-16-2016, 12:17 AM
The "right DNA"? Sounds like when I looked for a common clan allegiance in S5456. Corcoran was a sept of Ely O'Carroll, MacCoghlan was Dal gCas, and the others were different again. Or were indeterminate. The only repeat occurrence were Kane/Keane, and Mahon, septs of the Ui Fiachra Aidhne.

Within the Ui Fiachra Aidhne we have mostly R-M222 including Hynes, O'Clery, Kilkelly, O'Shannassy, Scanlon, Cahill and Drennan. But there are also DF21 including O'Maghna (L1402), O'Cathain (L658), and O'Mochain (S5456). I suspect the S5456+ Kane/Keane folks closely matching the Mahons may be Mahons who adopted the surname of their overlords, the O'Cathains. And to add more interest, MacFiachra (now McKeary, Keary, Carey, Corrie) appears to be Z253 > FGC3222.

It took a while to get to the bottom of that, and that's just my own sept. Other sub-clades of DF21 are spread around under other local dynasties. It's not a question of "right DNA". The DNA is what it is. Some of the later identities adopted may or may not fit with the DNA, as in the above example. If the DNA fits into a surname or tribe, that's great. Where it doesn't, just remember that surname and it's pedigree is a much later invention.

ARR
02-16-2016, 12:34 PM
The "right DNA"? Sounds like when I looked for a common clan allegiance in S5456. Corcoran was a sept of Ely O'Carroll, MacCoghlan was Dal gCas, and the others were different again. Or were indeterminate. The only repeat occurrence were Kane/Keane, and Mahon, septs of the Ui Fiachra Aidhne.

Within the Ui Fiachra Aidhne we have mostly R-M222 including Hynes, O'Clery, Kilkelly, O'Shannassy, Scanlon, Cahill and Drennan. But there are also DF21 including O'Maghna (L1402), O'Cathain (L658), and O'Mochain (S5456). I suspect the S5456+ Kane/Keane folks closely matching the Mahons may be Mahons who adopted the surname of their overlords, the O'Cathains. And to add more interest, MacFiachra (now McKeary, Keary, Carey, Corrie) appears to be Z253 > FGC3222.

It took a while to get to the bottom of that, and that's just my own sept. Other sub-clades of DF21 are spread around under other local dynasties. It's not a question of "right DNA". The DNA is what it is. Some of the later identities adopted may or may not fit with the DNA, as in the above example. If the DNA fits into a surname or tribe, that's great. Where it doesn't, just remember that surname and it's pedigree is a much later invention.

Or the DF21, etc. people could be linked to the Ui Fiachra Aidne through a woman rather than a man. Saying they are not part of the Ui Fiachra Aidhne simply because they don't carry the dominant yDNA is exactly what I was talking about. [I'm not saying you are doing that - only that I hope people will not do that.] It could be they adopted the surname of the overlord, or the pedigree could be a later invention, or there could be other reasons, including that the connection could be through a daughter. In the latter case, surely they are as related to the family as those who carry the "right" yDNA. I hope people will refrain from drawing conclusions as to who does and doesn't belong based strictly on yDNA.

Heber
02-16-2016, 01:01 PM
The Irish DNA Atlas (which should be published soon) found strong autosomal alignment with the historic provinces. Hopefully this will eventually hold true for the county or even parish level. This should give us an additional tool (to Y DNA) to look at Ancient septs and clans.

Jon
02-16-2016, 01:11 PM
Is this an academic project Gerard? Any idea of where and when published?

Dubhthach
02-16-2016, 01:46 PM
Is this an academic project Gerard? Any idea of where and when published?

RCSI (Royal College of Surgeons, Ireland) are involved, in sense idea is to have counterpart to PoBI project though their criteria was stricter, they wanted 8 great-grandparents from a specific geographic region (which ruled me out!), basically gives a snapshot of Ireland in 1850!

Like PoBI I imagine one of main interests of RCSI in it is to due with insights into medical conditions that are inherited (in Irish context Cystic Fibrosis, Haemochromotosis, PKU are big ones there)

ARR
02-16-2016, 03:11 PM
Great news Gerard! Thx for letting us know.

Heber
02-16-2016, 03:48 PM
Is this an academic project Gerard? Any idea of where and when published?

There was a presentation of preliminary results last October at GGI2015.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-atlas/

Jon
02-16-2016, 06:38 PM
Thanks Gerard, I hadn't heard of this...I'm trying to find out more regarding L513 (as usual!). Any knowledge of any stats for L513 that came out of this?

Heber
02-16-2016, 06:57 PM
Thanks Gerard, I hadn't heard of this...I'm trying to find out more regarding L513 (as usual!). Any knowledge of any stats for L513 that came out of this?

Mark Jobling is doing the Y analysis of the Irish DNA Atlas.
Here is my analysis of L513.
http://pin.it/Jlp4_Nd

Jon
02-16-2016, 07:24 PM
You don't happen to have maps for the UK do you?

Rory Cain
02-16-2016, 11:42 PM
ARR, I can't vouch for the source, but here goes:
"The surname of REDDEN was a locational name 'of Redden' in the parish of Sprouston, Roxburgshire, formerly a grange of the Abbey of Kelso. The name is also spelt RODDEN, RODDAN, O'RODAIN, O'RUDDANE and REDDIN. The name was taken to Ireland by settlers where in Gaelic it is rendered as O'Roideain. They were a Dalcassian sept, the main family were hereditary stewards to the O'Briens in east Clare."

Elsewhere I saw Linlithgow mentioned in connection with the Reddens. Linlithgow would not be out of the ordinary as a location for DF21+. As you said earlier,getting the Scots Reddens to test would clear that up, one way or the other. I am unsure how a Scots family could settle in Ireland and become a Dalcassian sept, at least not in the genetic sense. As you point out, a family can be adopted into another tribe, as with at least four of the Ui Fiachra septs I mentioned.

What I find most interesting about the latter is that those septs adopted by the Ui Fiachra Aidhne appear to have originated in Musnster, when archaic Connacht included presentday Clare and parts of Limerick. The Oga Peatha were from Moy Ealla (Mallow, Co Cork) and settled in Aidhne by Eoghan of Munster as part of an alliance between Eoghan and Conn. That alliance fell apart after the death of Crimthann Mac Fidaig and Lughaidh Meann took Thomond from the Connacht. Two small septs from the lost territories of Caonrighe (Kenry, Co Limerick), and Tradraige (Tradree, Co Clare), retained their allegiance to the Connachta and relocated to Aidhne as the Caonrighe Ardrahan and the Tradraige Dubh-rois. By the time surnames were adopted, the chiefs of Oga Peathra were MacFiachrach (McKeary); the chiefs of Cainrighe Ardrahan were O'Maghna; the chiefs of Tradraigh Dubh-rois were O'Cathain; and O'Cathain's follower was O'Mochain. From Y-DNA it appears that we have R-Z253 Keary (etc) lines; R-L1402 O'Maghna (Mahon) lines; R-L658 O'Cathain (Cain, Kane, Keane) lines and R-S5456 O'Mochain (Mahon) lines. I wish I knew more about this earlier Munster period. The later Ui Fiachra identity is fine, but there is another story to be uncovered.

angscoire
02-17-2016, 09:17 AM
Thanks MacUalraig. That clears up part of what I was asking- exactly who tested. It looks like representatives of Clan Donald North. And it looks like Clan Donald North is R1a. I guess the by default it also answers who didn't test, and that looks like Clan Donald South, less Glencoe who tested but was R1b. Versus Glencoe, McAlester was R1a. That leaves an unanswered question about the other chiefs of Clan Donald South- MacIain of Ardnamurchan, the Lords of Islay, the McDonnells of Antrim, etc.

A McIain (McKane) of Ardnamurchan or Glencoe has tested and he is R1a. The problem is that McAllisters , McIains and McDougalls (see the Dunaverty Massacre ) were ,and are, far less numerous than Clan Donald -it's hard to get a grasp of their genetic story .

Rory Cain
02-18-2016, 01:58 AM
A McIain (McKane) of Ardnamurchan or Glencoe has tested and he is R1a. The problem is that McAllisters , McIains and McDougalls (see the Dunaverty Massacre ) were ,and are, far less numerous than Clan Donald -it's hard to get a grasp of their genetic story .

Thanks angscoire, that would be MacIain of Ardnamurchan, whose chiefship was claimed some years ago by a McKane or McKean from Elgin, seeing as we have already accounted for MacIain of Glencoe being R1b.

pregan
02-19-2016, 07:35 PM
Here is Nigel McCarthy's latest article on how subclade Z16259 (under CTS4466) aligns with the Ui Chairpri Aebda (sept of the Ui Fidgeinte) using a novel SNP/STR dating approach. Interested to hear your feedback. He posted on the CTS4466 yahoo group but I uploaded it to my dropbox for you guys here :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nk0rry38xh3su51/Fhidgeinti%20Origins.pdf?dl=0

ARR
02-20-2016, 02:32 AM
Rory,
These are the earliest documents I've found thus far:
1. re Co Clare: a MacNamara Rent Roll dated shortly after 1318...wherein the "stewards of the Rodan family" give testimony..."and to the will of their father and grandfather out of Tuathmore; and the said stewards are Philip and Conor O'Rodan, descendants of the red stewards." According to an Irish researcher I trust from Co Clare, the ref to "father and grandfather" is another way of saying "for many generations" and Tuathmore is defined as "the great possession of the MacNamaras, [including] the parishes of Inchicronan, Doora, Kilgraghtis, Clooney and Tulla, practically upper Bunratty with Tulla parish, corresponding to the rural deanery of Ogashin."

Other documents of abt the same time have the surname spelled var as O'Rodain, Rodain and Rodane; by the 1500s it becomes Reddan, Ruddane, O'Ruddane and O Rideene [all referring to descendants of these early stewards].

The O'Brien Rent Rolls make no reference to the surname until the 1500s as far as I've been able to tell thus far. There is a document dated 11 July 1542, by which time they are confirmed as stewards of the O'Briens. I *suspect* there may have been a change in allegiance which came about as a result of an incident between the MacNamaras and O'Briens which ended with the MacNamaras giving over 5 [from memory but I think it was 5] hostages to the O'Briens. Apparently this was not an uncommon practice and the hostages were generally people the "givers" considered important to them. Basically it was a show of trust that they would then behave and be loyal to their new overlords [MacNamaras to O'Briens that is].

There are also ogham stones in Ireland which MacAllister has interpreted to refer to what we would know as the family name Rodan in Old Irish [w appropriate accents] and Ruadan [again w app accents].

2. re Kelso: there are deeds there from 1113, the time of David, Earl of Tweeddale and Northampton, which mention the family as descendants of Hugh, and that they had been there basically from time immemorial - or abt as long as the others had been in Ireland ;-)

3. re Linlithgow, the earliest record I've ever found was for a James, son of Patrick, bap in 1658. I don't think of Patrick as a Scottish name but maybe...I did find that one of the Adventurers into Ulster was a William Reading from that area, but I've not found anything connecting us to him - if I recall correctly I found he had no family. I do remember thinking "ok, if we were in Scotland maybe that's how we got to Ireland" but then found something that made me conclude - "nope, not him".

Finally the other thing about St Rodan is that our family tradition has long been that our name has something to do with a red hand, and apparently St Rodan's hand was preserved at Lorrha until the time of Cromwell. Not saying that's it but it did make me go "hmmm".

I'm sure it will be many years yet before the genetic story of the Irish and Scots can be clearly illustrated. Great that we are getting all these clues but still too much outstanding to draw any kind of conclusions IMO. There are also a lot of clues in the monastic history of the countries, with people far wiser than me working hard to put the pieces together. And the texts being translated via CELT are another under tapped resource.

Rory Cain
02-20-2016, 11:27 PM
ARR, that is a good start, using what we all start with - the paper trail. There may not be a lot more that you can do with the paper trail. From this point, it is likely that any further advances will come through DNA. The Redeens of Kelso cannot be written off until we know their DNA. It is highly likely that DF21+ migrated through that area on its way to central Scotland. But whether it was the source of or has any connection with the irish O'Duadains is another question.

I am not seeing much DF21 come out of McNamara territory in southwest Clare, but north and east Clare have DF21+ pockets. There are hints that the Tradraige Dubh-rois of Aidhne in south Galwaywere originally the Tradraige of Tradree, Co Clare. A Mahon family from south Galway appear to have connections with the Seven septs of Laois. What I am trying to say is that we in hints that DF21 has shifted around in early times, just as your Reddan ancestor apparently went the opposite direction to the Mahons, and went east to Co Laois.

Our biggest difficulty at present is that we have just your Reddan line, and no-one else from this line, with the nearest kin being the Little Scots Cluster, who appear to have originated as the most esaterly branch of DF21. That doesn't help us with your Reddan line. I lean more towards your Reddans being Irish, at least from surname times, and possibly from the southern part of the DF21 territory that is now split between modernday Connaught, Leinster and Munster. But that's just a hunch based on the few clues we have at present.

ARR
02-20-2016, 11:56 PM
Our biggest difficulty at present is that we have just your Reddan line, and no-one else from this line...

I'd have to doublecheck whether my Reddin and Roden/Rodan matches have done any SNP testing but Alex is quite confident the results will be the same. Roden/an has Irish ancestry but is stuck on a brickwall in the southern US; Reddin is from Dublin, earlier from Tipp, with dopplegangers she's just recently become acquainted with being Reddans from Lorrha. Our common ancestor was from no more recently than the late 1600s, *maybe* very early 1700s but that's a fairly big maybe. We're trying to raise enough $ among the 3 of us to get a Big Y done - hopefully sooner rather than later.

Rory Cain
02-21-2016, 08:25 AM
I just had a similar conversation with another S3058+, S424- guy, a brother sub-clade to yours, although those guys are Scots, and I don't doubt your Irish origins.

Roden and Rhoden's STRs look close enough to share a string of SNPs with you. Alex would be right on that account. He usually is.

Romilius
02-21-2016, 10:44 AM
Very interesting discussion... but, is it possible to show a table with all the chiefs tested with their results? Is it on FTDna? Or on other sites?

Rory Cain
02-25-2016, 11:48 PM
Very interesting discussion... but, is it possible to show a table with all the chiefs tested with their results? Is it on FTDna? Or on other sites?

Not that I am aware. I don't think the guy who started this thread ever followed through with that. And starting with chiefs who have DNA tested is jumping the gun a bit anyway. One would need to start by identifying who the clan chiefs actually are. The terms "chief" and "chieftain" have been thrown around on this thread as if they are interchangeable. They are not. A chief rules the whole clan. Chieftains rule only a branch of the clan. Chiefs have been subject to a recognition process, at least for a time, while chieftains generally have not, except in those cases where their status is debateable whether a chief or a chieftain. So it is possible, with diligent research, to be on firm ground with Chiefs, due to the recognition process and one wpuld generally expect that the DNA of the chieftains would provide supporting evidence, despite the lack of a recognition process for chieftains.

The Lord Lyon of Scotland is the authority for the matriculation of Scottish clan chiefs and continues to perform that role. The Chief Herald of Ireland used to be the authority for the recognition of Irish chiefs but ceased to do so in 2003 after the McCarthy Mor hoax. A list of recognised Irish chiefs is maintained by the Standing Council of Irish Chiefs <homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/councilchiefs.html>. Anyone on that list is bona fide. Anyone on the Irish Chiefs Watch <homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/chiefswatch.htm> is dubious.

Extinct titles like McCarthy Mor and Macdonald Mor Lord of The Isles have been used on this thread to overstate a case for particular DNA types. The last McCarthy Mor was Donnall, Earl of Clancarthy, who died in exile on an island in the River Elbe, Hamburg, in 1596. No-one has dug him upand DNA tested him. His daughter Ellen married Florence, son of Sir Donough McCarthy Reagh, making McCarthy Reagh the heir-female to the McCarthy Mor title. The English considered McCarthy Reagh already too powerful to ever recognise his claim to be the McCarthy Mor. In any case one does not Y-DNA test a female-line descendant to prove Y-DNA. McCarthy Reach remains a legitimate chief in is own right. Descendants of McCarthy Reagh and related chieftains have tested DF21 > FGC3213 > P314 > L362 > ZS4608 > ZS5498, wheareas descendants of McCarthy Muskerry and related branches have tested DF21 > FGC3213 > P314 > L362 > ZS4608 > A5813. The coalescence dates of these SNPs coincides with the McCarthy pedigree. This evidence is sufficiently compelling that it does not need to be embellished or enhanced by adding the extinct McCarthy Mor into the mix to make it sound more impressive.

Other DF21+ Munster chiefs include Tighe O'Donoghue Mor DF21 > Z30233 > FGC3903 > Z246 > DF25 > DF5+; and a descendant of Charles Carroll of Carrollton, himself descended from the Ely O'Carroll, DF21 > S5488 > Z16294 > Z16281 > Z16284 > Z16289. At this point the SNPs split Ely O'Carroll from individuals named O'Meagher and O'Flanagan in a manner not incompatible with the pedigree of those septs. The McCarthy and O'Carroll DNA projects provide more detailed information. Beyond that, it is pot-luck what information you will find, although MacDonald, Macneil and Macleod have been publicised widely in the media, and surname-based projects including Grant and Nisbet, amongst others, identify the DNA of their respective chielfly lines. Happy hunting!

Romilius
02-26-2016, 09:39 AM
Not that I am aware. I don't think the guy who started this thread ever followed through with that. And starting with chiefs who have DNA tested is jumping the gun a bit anyway. One would need to start by identifying who the clan chiefs actually are. The terms "chief" and "chieftain" have been thrown around on this thread as if they are interchangeable. They are not. A chief rules the whole clan. Chieftains rule only a branch of the clan. Chiefs have been subject to a recognition process, at least for a time, while chieftains generally have not, except in those cases where their status is debateable whether a chief or a chieftain. So it is possible, with diligent research, to be on firm ground with Chiefs, due to the recognition process and one wpuld generally expect that the DNA of the chieftains would provide supporting evidence, despite the lack of a recognition process for chieftains.

The Lord Lyon of Scotland is the authority for the matriculation of Scottish clan chiefs and continues to perform that role. The Chief Herald of Ireland used to be the authority for the recognition of Irish chiefs but ceased to do so in 2003 after the McCarthy Mor hoax. A list of recognised Irish chiefs is maintained by the Standing Council of Irish Chiefs <homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/councilchiefs.html>. Anyone on that list is bona fide. Anyone on the Irish Chiefs Watch <homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/chiefswatch.htm> is dubious.

Extinct titles like McCarthy Mor and Macdonald Mor Lord of The Isles have been used on this thread to overstate a case for particular DNA types. The last McCarthy Mor was Donnall, Earl of Clancarthy, who died in exile on an island in the River Elbe, Hamburg, in 1596. No-one has dug him upand DNA tested him. His daughter Ellen married Florence, son of Sir Donough McCarthy Reagh, making McCarthy Reagh the heir-female to the McCarthy Mor title. The English considered McCarthy Reagh already too powerful to ever recognise his claim to be the McCarthy Mor. In any case one does not Y-DNA test a female-line descendant to prove Y-DNA. McCarthy Reach remains a legitimate chief in is own right. Descendants of McCarthy Reagh and related chieftains have tested DF21 > FGC3213 > P314 > L362 > ZS4608 > ZS5498, wheareas descendants of McCarthy Muskerry and related branches have tested DF21 > FGC3213 > P314 > L362 > ZS4608 > A5813. The coalescence dates of these SNPs coincides with the McCarthy pedigree. This evidence is sufficiently compelling that it does not need to be embellished or enhanced by adding the extinct McCarthy Mor into the mix to make it sound more impressive.

Other DF21+ Munster chiefs include Tighe O'Donoghue Mor DF21 > Z30233 > FGC3903 > Z246 > DF25 > DF5+; and a descendant of Charles Carroll of Carrollton, himself descended from the Ely O'Carroll, DF21 > S5488 > Z16294 > Z16281 > Z16284 > Z16289. At this point the SNPs split Ely O'Carroll from individuals named O'Meagher and O'Flanagan in a manner not incompatible with the pedigree of those septs. The McCarthy and O'Carroll DNA projects provide more detailed information. Beyond that, it is pot-luck what information you will find, although MacDonald, Macneil and Macleod have been publicised widely in the media, and surname-based projects including Grant and Nisbet, amongst others, identify the DNA of their respective chielfly lines. Happy hunting!

Very interesting... Thanks for explanation: as an Italian living in Ethiopia, I'm not aware of the complex structure of Scottish clans. It seems very similar to ancient Roman gentes.

Dubhthach
02-26-2016, 10:33 AM
Gens is often used in early Latin texts written in Ireland with regards to genealogy, particularly on earliest strata which you could term dynastical groups eg. where they don't have "true surnames", obviously later surnames developed within such groups.

An example:
Dál Cuinn/Connachta = gens of Conn (semi-mythical said to have lived at time of Marcus Aurelius)

Uí Briúin -- descendants of Brion (semi-mythical, half-brother of Niall would have lived supposedly early 5th century)

Uí Briúin Aí -- the Uí Briúin of Magh nAí (partition of wider dynastical group)

Síol Muireadhaigh -- the "seed of Muireadhach" descendants of Muireadach king of Connacht who died in 702AD


Ó Conchobhair (O'Connor -- descendants of Conchobar) -- descendants of Conchobar who lived in mid/late 10th century

Ó Conchobair Donn (O'Connor Don -- "Brown O'Connor" -- descendants of Toirdelbach Donn who died circa 1342

Ó Conchobair Rua (O'Connor Roe -- "Red O'Connor" -- descendants of Toirdelbach Rua who died circa 1425
Mac Diarmada (McDermot -- son of Diarmaid)
etc.


So in above example you have a segmentation of a gens, into subgroup based on descent from Brion up until 10th century membership of dynastical group was basically key thing as there were no permant surnames, surnames than start getting adapted in 10th/11th century using a more recent ancestor to denote descent from.

Romilius
02-26-2016, 05:53 PM
Gens is often used in early Latin texts written in Ireland with regards to genealogy, particularly on earliest strata which you could term dynastical groups eg. where they don't have "true surnames", obviously later surnames developed within such groups.

An example:
Dál Cuinn/Connachta = gens of Conn (semi-mythical said to have lived at time of Marcus Aurelius)

Uí Briúin -- descendants of Brion (semi-mythical, half-brother of Niall would have lived supposedly early 5th century)

Uí Briúin Aí -- the Uí Briúin of Magh nAí (partition of wider dynastical group)

Síol Muireadhaigh -- the "seed of Muireadhach" descendants of Muireadach king of Connacht who died in 702AD


Ó Conchobhair (O'Connor -- descendants of Conchobar) -- descendants of Conchobar who lived in mid/late 10th century

Ó Conchobair Donn (O'Connor Don -- "Brown O'Connor" -- descendants of Toirdelbach Donn who died circa 1342

Ó Conchobair Rua (O'Connor Roe -- "Red O'Connor" -- descendants of Toirdelbach Rua who died circa 1425
Mac Diarmada (McDermot -- son of Diarmaid)
etc.


So in above example you have a segmentation of a gens, into subgroup based on descent from Brion up until 10th century membership of dynastical group was basically key thing as there were no permant surnames, surnames than start getting adapted in 10th/11th century using a more recent ancestor to denote descent from.

Yes, like a latin gens: the nomen of the gens is followed by the cognomen, that denotes familiar groups.

Tomas455
03-01-2016, 06:36 AM
Hi! I'm new here, but in tracing my lines, the royalty of England, Scotland, Wales, France Spain and Portugal all married for status, or gain, and there are different nationality royalty throughout. My lines make my head spin, with all the twists and turns.

Could someone help me I am not a linear decendant in any line except one that deadend in 1600's in Maine, but tracing back I have found relation to the planetagens, French and Spanish kings, and just recently Scottish early kings, the Kenneth alpin line. And also welsh kings. Now my question is that all looks nice on paper, but without a linear DNA line, how can I prove genetically that I am related to the kings of Scotland? On one DNA area I meet the modal for King William the conqueror to the 6th, which means I'm related to him, thanks Tomas, my college genetics class was years ago!

Rory Cain
03-05-2016, 04:23 AM
I believe a DF41 lineage descended from Sir John Stewart of Bonkil is now identified as "Royal Stewart". There is some mention of it further back in this thread. That of course was identified through Y-DNA. One might still be a maternal line descendant of someone within that royal lineage. That's going to be much tougher to establish.

angscoire
03-07-2016, 11:17 AM
Hi! I'm new here, but in tracing my lines, the royalty of England, Scotland, Wales, France Spain and Portugal all married for status, or gain, and there are different nationality royalty throughout. My lines make my head spin, with all the twists and turns.

Could someone help me I am not a linear decendant in any line except one that deadend in 1600's in Maine, but tracing back I have found relation to the planetagens, French and Spanish kings, and just recently Scottish early kings, the Kenneth alpin line. And also welsh kings. Now my question is that all looks nice on paper, but without a linear DNA line, how can I prove genetically that I am related to the kings of Scotland? On one DNA area I meet the modal for King William the conqueror to the 6th, which means I'm related to him, thanks Tomas, my college genetics class was years ago!

You can't - unless perhaps you belong to the aforementioned Royal Stewart line , or unless the bones of other Scottish kings are unearthed and tested and you strike lucky by matching them. William the Conqueror's patrilineal ancestors are being tested right now (Dukes Richard I and II of Normandy) so we'll be able to identify his true paternal line before the end of the year. I am alleged to be a patrilineal descendent of Somerled , but one can never be certain until identifiable remains of his are found and tested.

Romilius
03-07-2016, 04:49 PM
You can't - unless perhaps you belong to the aforementioned Royal Stewart line , or unless the bones of other Scottish kings are unearthed and tested and you strike lucky by matching them. William the Conqueror's patrilineal ancestors are being tested right now (Dukes Richard I and II of Normandy) so we'll be able to identify his true paternal line before the end of the year. I am alleged to be a patrilineal descendent of Somerled , but one can never be certain until identifiable remains of his are found and tested.

In case of rich documental sources, it is possible to avoid the ancient bone testing: it is better to test the descendant from lines documentally proved to have stemmed at one point.

angscoire
03-07-2016, 05:54 PM
In case of rich documental sources, it is possible to avoid the ancient bone testing: it is better to test the descendant from lines documentally proved to have stemmed at one point.

That is what the Clan Donald Chiefs have done , making it almost a certainty that the genetics do indeed show their descent from Somerleds alleged great x3 grandson, Lord John of the Isles (died 1386). My line splits with theirs just before Lord John and falls into the 'probably descended from Somerled' category. Although, being a fully paid up cynic , I doubt such sensational claims.

Rory Cain
03-07-2016, 09:04 PM
The McCarthy DNA study has done that too. The MacCarthy Mor line has been extinct for centuries. So they tested modern day descendants who branched off the McCarthy stem over the centuries and who have well preserved pedigrees. They found SNP markers hated by the branches of the clan, and those branches for together the same way as their position on the pedigree. In addition they estimated the age of those SNPs. That aligns too. Where the planets align, I'm not sure one can do much better than that.

Romilius
03-08-2016, 06:09 AM
That is what the Clan Donald Chiefs have done , making it almost a certainty that the genetics do indeed show their descent from Somerleds alleged great x3 grandson, Lord John of the Isles (died 1386). My line splits with theirs just before Lord John and falls into the 'probably descended from Somerled' category. Although, being a fully paid up cynic , I doubt such sensational claims.

Interesting... but before 1386 is very difficult to have a clear documental gallery to state parental links... perhaps only some nobles and is also difficult for them.

angscoire
03-08-2016, 01:14 PM
Interesting... but before 1386 is very difficult to have a clear documental gallery to state parental links... perhaps only some nobles and is also difficult for them.

You have probably seen this before but I'll post it anyway.

http://clan-donald-usa.org/index.php/dna-layout/13-dna-project/85-dna-bigy

Romilius
03-08-2016, 05:37 PM
You have probably seen this before but I'll post it anyway.

http://clan-donald-usa.org/index.php/dna-layout/13-dna-project/85-dna-bigy

I saw that link.

The section "Before Somerled" is very interesting and explain things in a polite and educated way.

I preferred, however, to see a section of documental bibliography, or a genealogical tree with dates and their source from documents.

Rory Cain
03-27-2016, 10:08 PM
That is what the Clan Donald Chiefs have done , making it almost a certainty that the genetics do indeed show their descent from Somerleds alleged great x3 grandson, Lord John of the Isles (died 1386). My line splits with theirs just before Lord John and falls into the 'probably descended from Somerled' category. Although, being a fully paid up cynic , I doubt such sensational claims.

The fact that nothing else fits is compelling. All but one Macdonald, Macallister, MacIain chief with a documented pedigree from John The Good, Lord if the Isles, tested as R1a. Despite an earlier claim on this forum that "MacDonald Mor" is DF21, only one of these men was R1b, and he was not DF21 either. He would have been if he was Clan Colla as mythology would have it. Some clansmen evidently were DF21, but that is another matter. Plus the branching of the R1b haplotree matches the branching of the clan in their pedigree.

By all means retain your cynicism, because that means you examined the evidence. Having done so, you possibly concluded, like me, that it adds up better than other claims.

Rory Cain
03-31-2016, 11:57 PM
There is, at least among the uninitiated, a general expectation that all members of a tribe are related. A look at a small but once important tribe, the Ui Fiachra Aidhne, does not totally support that expectation. The surnames constituting the Ui Fiachra Aidhne show some commonality in their Y-DNA but also significant exceptions. The Oga Peathra are often listed as a sept with the same descent as the other Ui Fiachra tribes, but O'Donovan records them as the earliest inhabitants of Aidhne, settled in north Aidhne from Moy-ealla (Mallow, Co Cork). They fostered Eoghain, the son of Eochaidh Breac, for which he was called Eoghain Aidhne, and also fostered Eoghain Beul mac Ceallach mac Oilioll Molt mac Dathi and were his first faction when he was assumng the government of Connacht. This shows the Oga Peathra to be Ui Fiachra by political allegiance and bnds of fostergare rather than by descent. In later times the chief of Oga Peathra was MacFiachra, now rendered as Keary and Carey. Their Y-DNA appears to be Z253.

Next we have an outer ring of septs who descend from Eoghain AIdhne but not from his illustrious descendant Guaire an-einigh. These include O'Cathain, O'Mochain and O'Dubhghiolla, otherwise rendered as Cain/ Kane/ Keane, Mahon and Deely/ Devilly/ Daffily. The O'Cathains appear to be R-L658 and the O'Mochains appear to be R-S5456, sub-clades of DF21. Identifying the O'Dubhghiolla Y-DNA remains a challenge. But the trend appears to be that this outer ring of Aidhne septs not considered part of the Cinel Guaire or Ceenel Aodh are of different Y-DNA to the Cenel Guaire and Cenel Aodh.

Next the Cenel Aodh who descend from Aodh, brother of Columhan, king of Connacht 601-622. The Cenel Aodh includes O'Seanasaigh, O'Cathail and O'Scannlain, now rendered O'Shaughnessy, Cahill and Scanlan. Perons with these surnames and Co Galway rigins appear tobe riuturning R-M222+ results. Finally the inner snactum of the Ui Fiachra Aidhne, the Cenel Guaire, named from Guaite an-einigh ('the Hospitable'), son of Columhan and himself king ofConnacht 655-663. Guaire's descendants include O'hEidhin, MacGiolla-Cealligh, O'Cleirigh and allegedly O'Magna, named now rendered as Hynes, Kilkelly, Cleary/ Clarke and Mahon. The first three appear to be returneing R-M222+ Y-DNA results. O'Magna is an interesting exception, being R-A819 like the Seven Septs of Laois, a branch of DF21. But as Lord of Aidhne until dispossessed by another Cenel Guaire sept in 992, O'Maghna had to be reckoned as Ceneal Guaire rather than admit the tribe had been ruled by an outsider.

The deeper origins of O'Maghna may be revealed by his title before becoming Lord of Aidhne when he was chief of the Caonraighe Ardrahan. Similarly O'Cathain ruled a territory which had been the Tradraigh Dubh-ros. Before Lughaidh Meann successfully took Thomond from the Ui Fiachra, two Ui Fiachra client states which defended the Shannon eastuary were Caonraighe (now Kenry, Co Limerick) and Tradraige (now Tradree, Co Clare). On relocation to the Ui Fiachra's new southern border in what is now south Galway, these client states added the name of their new location to their old identity as Caonraighe Ardrahan and Tradraigh Dubh-ros.

Rory Cain
05-04-2016, 01:30 AM
Very interesting discussion... but, is it possible to show a table with all the chiefs tested with their results? Is it on FTDna? Or on other sites?

If the originator of this thread has done so, I have not seen it. Looking at DF21+ kits whose earliest ancestor listing would appear to represent a claim to descend from a chiefly line:

McCarthy Reagh and his Septs;
McCarthy Muskerry and his Septs;
O'Donoghue Mor:
Ely O'Carroll and his Septs;
O'Neill of Ivowen;
Maguire "junior line" of Tempo;
McMahon of Trohanny;
Lord MacDonald of Islay; and
Sir Andrew Ogilvie of Inchmartin.

Some of the above pedigrees are well documented, examined and accepted. Other claims remain just that. The number of DF21 chiefly claimants from Munster is noteworthy. The scarcity from Scotland, where DF21 is also well represented, is equally noteworthy.

McCown
05-25-2016, 03:22 PM
I wrote Dr. Jim Wilson of ScotlandsDNA, etc., and ran the alleged Stewart pedigree from Alan of Lochaber by him. He replied that it is interesting but in his opinion the MacGregors have the most likely claim to descent from the kings of Dalriada, and they are L1335+>L1065+. The MacGregor Clan claims descent from Griogar, a son of Alpin. Given the frequency of L1065 in Scotland, he could be right.

Anyway, barring the recovery of ancient y-dna from the remains of Kenneth Mac Alpin or someone else in that y line, it seems we never will know the truth.

Gregors don't claim descent from Alpin: See Page 22 as labeled… ( pg 35 in pdf )

Gregor Origins: https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/1842/6887/1/329829.pdf

McCown
05-25-2016, 03:27 PM
Here is something newsworthy and extremely interesting. If true, it means that we can infer that Kenneth Mac Alpin was DF41+ (aka CTS6581+, S524+).

I: Patrilinear Descent of Walter the High Steward

Note.- each succeeding generation is the son of the previous one.

24.Ere of Irish Dairiada (Dal naraide)
23.Fergus Mor Mae Ere, d.501
22.Domangart
21. K. Gabran of Dalriada, c.548-558
20.Aedan Mac Gabran, d.608, m. Ygerna de Acqs
19.Eochaid Buide (younger brother of the historical King Arthur)
18.Donald Brec
17.Domangart
16.Eochaid, d.696
15. Eochaid
14. Aed the White (Aed Find)
13.Eochaid the Poisonous, d.781
12. Alpin
11. K. Kenneth MacA]pin [sic]
10. K. Aed (Aeth), d.878
9.Doir, b.870-d.936
8.Murdoch, b.900-d.959
7.Ferguard, b.929-d.980
6.Kenneth, b.960-d.1030
5.Banquo, Thane of Lochaber, b.990-k.1043
4.Fleance, Thane of Lochaber, b.1020-d. c.1064
3.Walter, Thane of Lochaber, b. c.1045-d.1093
2.Alan of Lochaber, b. c. 1088-d. 1 153, father of-
1.WALTER FITZ ALAN, 1st HIGH STEWARD OF SCOTLAND, d. 1177

Here is the link to the very convincing argument:

http://www.mckinneyandstewart.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I2816&tree=McKinneyandStewart

Stewarts are flummoxed past Banquo. Anyone researching Stewart Origins should read this: http://archive.org/stream/isleofbuteinolde02hewiuoft#page/n23/mode/2up

McCown
05-25-2016, 03:53 PM
The 1467 MS is the oldest Scottish pedigree document so If you look through the various pedigrees descended from Erc the only surname associated with DF41 is McLellan which is simply not enough to support this theory. That is assuming the Kenneth McAlpine was actually descended from Erc however if he was not then this may fit into your theory that he was DF41. My own L720 branch of DF21 seems to tick all the boxes for a descent from Fergus Mor Mac Erc with the following all recorded in the MS1467 pedigrees


Fergus Mor Mac Erc

Clan Chattan - L720 surnames associated with clan chatten

Six matches to Gille Iosa (Gillis)
Four matches to MacIntosh (Mac an Toiseach)
One MacPherson (Son of the Parson)
One Davidson
One McKillian (McQuilkin of Rathlin Island)

Clan MacInnes of Iona L720 matches
Seven MacInnes with a good GD spread confirming the antiquity of the line

Lord of the Isles MacDonald associated with Clan MacInnes that match the MacInnes above
Three MacDonalds
One McCaul (a sept of the Lord of the Isles MacDonalds)

Clan Gille Fhaolain (McNab) L720 matches
Two McLellan's one from North Uist and the other from South Uist
One McClelland (Same name as MacLellan)
One Weir (clan McNab surname)

Muircheartach Mor Mac Erc (Brother of Fergus and ancestor of O'Neill of Ulster)
One O'Neill from Ireland
This O'Neill has markers that are distinct from the Scottish line showing a seperate Irish line, the genetic distance at 67 markers is remarkably consistant at 11 or 12 indicating a common ancestor with the Scottish line of around 1500 years ago .

Other L720 surnames

Colonial cluster stemming from a recent common ancestor, a GD of 10 at 111 markers to McLellan indicate that this group are descended from Scottish McLellan.
Farris
Williams
Singleton

Of 31 people with clear L720 signatures we have 28 who have surnames associated with the line of Erc and the other three are almost certainly descended from a Scottish McLellan and this is clearly the only SNP with this high percentage of surname matches so therefore is by far the best contender for the descendents of this line to date. I am aware that this may change in the future as more people test but for now I am sticking to my guns that L720 is the line of Fergus Mor Mac Erc


http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/

I'm not familiar with the MacLellan to Erc lineage. Can you point me to the historic/ancestral connection? I am the administrator of the MacLellan DNA project so this is good for me to know. I also maybe able to help determine which MacLellan haplogroup makes the most sense here if I understand the family connection to Erc. I tried looking at the 1467 manuscript but it's not clear to me. I see plenty of MacEoghains in the lineage ( McCown represent! ).

McCown
05-25-2016, 11:41 PM
For those claiming kinship for chiefs and kings, it would be helpful if you drew a tree showing the SNPs and surnames mapped out in a phylogeny. Show if they are consistent with the documented lineages. I have seen sweeping surname lists in this thread loosely tied to SNPs that are way older than the affiliated progenitor of the clan or kingdom in question. For example, DF21 is about 4000 years old. Which of it's appropriately aged subclades branch out into Erc, Donald, Somarlie, Maguire, etc? For M222 I'd like to see it's subclades mapped to the lineages of Niall. If these old lineages merge upstream, show that too. Without a SNP tree it's very hard to see what's what.

oneillabu
05-26-2016, 09:07 PM
I'm not familiar with the MacLellan to Erc lineage. Can you point me to the historic/ancestral connection? I am the administrator of the MacLellan DNA project so this is good for me to know. I also maybe able to help determine which MacLellan haplogroup makes the most sense here if I understand the family connection to Erc. I tried looking at the 1467 manuscript but it's not clear to me. I see plenty of MacEoghains in the lineage ( McCown represent! ).

I contacted the McLellan project years ago regarding the relationship between McLellan of North Uist and South Uist and I was basically told to mind my own business and that this has had been researched and no connection was found. Of course I was proved right in the end when the McLellan's of Uist decided to fund their own testing, (if they had not done so then they still would not know) this behaviour unfortunately is the norm rather than the exeption and to be quiet frank with you I simply cannot be bothered with dishonest admins anymore, take for instance the Lord of the Isles McDonalds who according to the pedigrees are of the same stock as Clan McInnes, if you look at the Clan McInnes project you will find a cluster of L720 McInnes with an excellant GD between them and you will find that they match a cluster of McDonald's and septs of McDonalds who also have the L720 signature, I sent numerous emails to Clan McDonald pointing out this L720 cluster to which I received no reply, indeed they would not even group the people together with this clear signature some who have actually tested L720+ instead they scattered them in the project putting them in with people who they are clearly not related to.

To answer your question regarding McLellan origins, they are of Clan McNab stock who were said to be a branch of Clan McDonald which ties in perfectly for the Uist McLellan's, of course there are many differant McLellan's just like any other Irish or Scottish clan however the evidence clearly points to these Uist McLellan's as being of McDonald Lord of the Isles stock

St. Fillan (Fhaolain, Foelan) was the son of St. Kentigerna and Feriach. was also known as Foelan.
He became an abbot near St. Andrews in 8th Century Scotland. He retired and built a church at Glendochart in Perthshire. "He died on 19 January, 703 A.D. His feast day is January 19.

Gille is an ancient Gaelic prefix meaning steward, disciple, follower, or son of . the surnames Gilliland, Gilfillian, Gilleland, McClelland, MacLelland, Leland, Whelan and Phelan all mean disciple of St. Fillan (which means "little wolf.") The root word is Mac-Giolla-Fhaolain (Gaelic). The Gillilands and the MacLellands, along with the MacRaes, were the arms bearers (warriors) for the McKenzie Clan in Rosshire for eight centuries.

https://www.scotsconnection.com/clan_crests/MacNab.htm

Hope this is of some help to you

McCown
05-26-2016, 09:17 PM
I contacted the McLellan project years ago regarding the relationship between McLellan of North Uist and South Uist and I was basically told to mind my own business and that this has had been researched and no connection was found. Of course I was proved right in the end when the McLellan's of Uist decided to fund their own testing, (if they had not done so then they still would not know) this behaviour unfortunately is the norm rather than the exeption and to be quiet frank with you I simply cannot be bothered with dishonest admins anymore
Hope this is of some help to you

I haven't always been the MacLellan admin. I'm pretty sure it wasn't me that would have turned away your input. Whatever the case, we welcome your input now. I'm pretty familiar with the Gaelic etymology of MacLellan. Do you have a tree that demonstrates L720 and the related downstream clans as they pertain to MacNab and MacLellan? It's really difficult to make sense of anyone's claims without a SNP tree.

Leitir Fura
07-05-2016, 02:32 AM
What it tells me is that at this stage L720 /S299 looks like a west coast Scottish marker and nothing more....

Leitir Fura
07-05-2016, 02:48 AM
Your comment - I am sticking to my guns that L720 is the line of Fergus Mor Mac Erc...

May I suggest there is nothing to suggest that L720 is a Dal Riatan line. The only thing it suggests is that as a terminal SNP at this stage that it appears west coast Scottish, and could be originally Cruithne or Pict rather than Irish Scot... Do you have more supporting evidence?

oneillabu
07-05-2016, 01:25 PM
Your comment - I am sticking to my guns that L720 is the line of Fergus Mor Mac Erc...

May I suggest there is nothing to suggest that L720 is a Dal Riatan line. The only thing it suggests is that as a terminal SNP at this stage that it appears west coast Scottish, and could be originally Cruithne or Pict rather than Irish Scot... Do you have more supporting evidence?

What is your surname?, what is your kit number?, what is your own DNA type? I like to know who is insulting me before I respond

Leitir Fura
07-06-2016, 08:34 AM
I'm not insulting you, and as I said in a previous post you seem to like leading with your chin. You also, it appears like to jump to assumptions, which is fine by me, but I will only be swayed by actual hard evidence not some quasi Irish rhetoric. Lets just deal with the facts and all try and see if we can make sense of ALL old and new results. You might be a lot more enlightened than me on this subject but please leave out jumping to conclusions that do not exist. Keep smiling is a good start ...

Leitir Fura
07-06-2016, 10:09 AM
I checked out the L720 list you advised thanks. I take it you are 145081 Aodh Bhuide O'Neill (died 1283). Just one question...If this us you how can you say that you have a direct paternal line to a Aodh Bhuide O'Neill who died in 1283? I just keep smiling ....

Heber
07-06-2016, 11:44 AM
I'd have to doublecheck whether my Reddin and Roden/Rodan matches have done any SNP testing but Alex is quite confident the results will be the same. Roden/an has Irish ancestry but is stuck on a brickwall in the southern US; Reddin is from Dublin, earlier from Tipp, with dopplegangers she's just recently become acquainted with being Reddans from Lorrha. Our common ancestor was from no more recently than the late 1600s, *maybe* very early 1700s but that's a fairly big maybe. We're trying to raise enough $ among the 3 of us to get a Big Y done - hopefully sooner rather than later.

Arr,

My closest match on Big Y is Rowan, and we believe the common ancestor was from Lorrha.
There were many Reddans and McNamaras living in proximity to my Corcoran ancestors in Ballymacegan, Lorrha.
They are buried in Lorrha Cemetery. I have documented Corcorans in Lorrha since mid 17th Century.
A branch crossed the nearby Shannon to Clonfert during Cromwellian times but returned to Lorrha in the 19th C.

http://www.interment.net/data/ireland/tipperary/lorrha/
http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=TN&regno=22400412


https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/corcoran-clan/


The legendary ancestor of Corcoran is Amruaidh (Red) and Rowan (Red) and the founder of Lorrha was St Ruadhan, Rodan (Red) in the 6th C..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruadh%C3%A1n_of_Lorrha

Our terminal SNP is L21>DF21>S5456.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=34
We also match Conways, Kings and Mearas who are also found in Lorrha.

oneillabu
07-07-2016, 09:35 PM
I checked out the L720 list you advised thanks. I take it you are 145081 Aodh Bhuide O'Neill (died 1283). Just one question...If this us you how can you say that you have a direct paternal line to a Aodh Bhuide O'Neill who died in 1283? I just keep smiling ....

Of course I do not have a paper pedigree back to 1283, nobody does but this is not some kind of a wishful thinking flight of fancy on my behalf, it is based purely on Autosomal evidence because 95% of all research I do is through RootsIreland and my Autosomal matches, to date I have the following people showing up as cousins to me

5th Cousin Doris Greaves, the only Irish people she has in her pedgree are Frances O'Neill daughter of Lord O'Neill of Ulster

5th Cousin Deputy Niall Blaney of Donegal, These are descended from the line of Lord Blayney who had a Daughter Letitia Blayney who was married to the O'Neill's of Shane's Castle

A cluster of six different people who show up as 5th Cousin's who have a Rose Dixon from Armagh in their pedigree dating from 1680, there was a strong association between the O'Neill's of Shane's Castle and the Dixons of Ulster who inherited the Burroughs estates in Wicklow and Kildare, the O'Neill's of Shane's Castle married into the Dixons

4th Cousin to James Dearmond of Ulster who was born in 1710 in Ulster and emigrated to the States, the surname of his first wife is unknown but she was most likely an O'Neill from Ulster or else possibly a Dixon

5th Cousin to Gary Brown who has a William Neely Son of Henry Neely born in Tyrone in 1712

5th Cousin to Alfred Warren, the only Irish he has in his pedigree are Samuel Neely Son of Thomas Neely Tyrone 1692

5th Cousin to James Robinson who has Murdoch O'Neill from Tyrone in 1720 in his pedigree

Most of my pedigrees on my Paternal side lead back to Ulster around 1700, many of these people have ancestors who have emigrated to the Southern States of North America in the early 1700's

I also do quiet a bit of research in Gedmatch and I am showing up as being a cousin to Rían ÓMaolChonaire who is DF21+ and posts on this forum, the thing about this connection is that he is descended from the O'Neill's of Shane's Castle on his Mothers side

This is just a small section of Autosomal matches that I am working on, now the evidence here leads me firmly to believe that my ancestors were in Ulster prior to the battle of the Boyne and were associated with the O'Neill's of Shane's Castle, that is why I have put Aodh Bhuide O'Neill as my oldest ancestor, however there is so much we don't know regarding the O'Neill's and I am open to alter this if other evidence points elsewhere

Hope this keeps you smiling

Leitir Fura
07-17-2016, 05:58 AM
Good stuff.. I might have to take up Irish dancing

omaolchonaire
07-18-2016, 09:18 PM
One of the most interesting things is that that list was for the most part compiled from the Book of Leinster and Yellow Book of Lecan, both of which use the Book of O'Maolchonaire as source material, closely related to the Leabhar na hUidre, and though the O'Maolchonaires professed an Ui Neill pedigree, they maintained connections that obviously relate to an earlier period, like that with the O'Roddys of Leitrim.

The most pertinent aspect if I am right is that The Seven Septs of Laois (Dal Araidhe) are descended from a first cousin (Conchobar mac Nessa) of Fergus mac Roich. We know for example L-1337 is not stable I wonder how that type of thing might affect how our groups look.

omaolchonaire
07-18-2016, 09:34 PM
I am not descended from the O'Neills of Shane's Castle on my mother's side, my grandfather's grandmother was Elizabeth O'Neill, her father was Charles Henry O'Neill, The O'Neill of Clannaboy, not Charles Henry St. John Earl O'Neill. They were alive at the same time, but only very distantly related, we are Catholics, and were Lords of the Feevagh after leaving Edaindubhcarrig now Shane's Castle 1602.

I am basing my assumptions on the O'Neill Y-DNA project on Family Tree, which has the O'Neills as DF-27 and Ui Neill (McNeelys, adopted surname O'Neill, possibly early O'Neills about the time of Aodh Athlamhan &c.) as M-222.

The O'Niallans were a very respectable family from ancient times, and being descended from The Red Branch Nights, Ruadhrighe Mór, Ollamh Fodhla, &c. is no churlish blood !

As far as being a cousin I don't know how far the Family Finder can go back, but all four of Charles Henry O'Neill'S grandparents were O'Neills and only married O'Neills back to when we left Shane's Castle, so I am literally 1/32 O'Neill, with 7/8 Irish ancestry 1/8 Welsh through Montreal and St. John's.

omaolchonaire
07-18-2016, 09:41 PM
This is the relation between the Shane's Castle O'Neill's and my grandpa's grandma Elizabeth. I also have Browns from Tyrone on my Mum's side. https://archive.org/stream/selectionofarmsa00inburk#page/n177/mode/2up

oneillabu
07-22-2016, 08:19 PM
I am not descended from the O'Neills of Shane's Castle on my mother's side, my grandfather's grandmother was Elizabeth O'Neill, her father was Charles Henry O'Neill, The O'Neill of Clannaboy, not Charles Henry St. John Earl O'Neill. They were alive at the same time, but only very distantly related, we are Catholics, and were Lords of the Feevagh after leaving Edaindubhcarrig now Shane's Castle 1602.

I am basing my assumptions on the O'Neill Y-DNA project on Family Tree, which has the O'Neills as DF-27 and Ui Neill (McNeelys, adopted surname O'Neill, possibly early O'Neills about the time of Aodh Athlamhan &c.) as M-222.

The O'Niallans were a very respectable family from ancient times, and being descended from The Red Branch Nights, Ruadhrighe Mór, Ollamh Fodhla, &c. is no churlish blood !

As far as being a cousin I don't know how far the Family Finder can go back, but all four of Charles Henry O'Neill'S grandparents were O'Neills and only married O'Neills back to when we left Shane's Castle, so I am literally 1/32 O'Neill, with 7/8 Irish ancestry 1/8 Welsh through Montreal and St. John's.


I am not descended from the O'Neills of Shane's Castle on my mother's side, my grandfather's grandmother was Elizabeth O'Neill, her father was Charles Henry O'Neill, The O'Neill of Clannaboy, not Charles Henry St. John Earl O'Neill. They were alive at the same time, but only very distantly related, we are Catholics, and were Lords of the Feevagh after leaving Edaindubhcarrig now Shane's Castle 1602.

One thing you must remember about O'Neill pedigree's is that they are completely unreliable. The O'Neill's owned much of the province of Ulster which was systematically stolen by all and sundry, it is unrealistic that so many of these O'Neill's left no male heir or that their male offspring all died young or died in accidents etc, there has been so much garbage written about name changes to Payne and Cork O'Neill's etc, none of which can be found in rootsireland even though they are in the mid to late 1800's so they should be there.

I can tell you that I have found the baptismal cert of your ancestor Elizabeth Catherine Teres Oneil who was baptised on 04-Mar-1841 in ST.PAUL'S ARRAN QUAY in Dublin and her Father is listed as Charles Henry Oneil and her Mother as Mary O'Grady so this is accurate however I failed to find any of the rest listed on the pedigree chart you provided based on the names given however I will come back to it at a later stage



I am basing my assumptions on the O'Neill Y-DNA project on Family Tree, which has the O'Neills as DF-27 and Ui Neill (McNeelys, adopted surname O'Neill, possibly early O'Neills about the time of Aodh Athlamhan &c.) as M-222.

Here is a link to the DF27 project, take a look at that and then look at the DF21 project and tell me which is ancient Irish, the genetice distances between the DF27 O'Neill's are very small and indicate a common ancestor from only a few hundred years ago, regarding the M222 Neely's you are correct however they do not match the M222 O'Neill's who do not even match each other within acceptable time frames that would be compatible with the pedigrees, the whole M222 Niall theory is coming apart due to new SNP's separating all the surnames that are supposed to share a common ancestor.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27?iframe=yresults




The O'Niallans were a very respectable family from ancient times, and being descended from The Red Branch Nights, Ruadhrighe Mór, Ollamh Fodhla, &c. is no churlish blood !


What you say is true however if you read the document from 1580 AD (link below) you will find the following passage

http://www.aughty.org/pdf/siol_fhlannchadha.pdf

A 1610 inquisition post mortem of Daniel son of James Neylan, scion of the Uí Nialláin learned medical kindred of Ballyallia, states that he was married to Fionnghuala Nic Fhlannchadha. The two learned lineages appear to have had intertwined interests for we read in 1622 the will of Hugh Mc Clanchy of Killfinane which states he is to be buried with his ancestors at Dysert parish church, and disavows any right of Nicholas O Nellan or Flann his son, to lands at Killfinane.

You will also find in the same document that Mac Fhlannchadha (McClancy) were living in Tradraighe in Co. Clare which was also the territory of the O'Neill's of Clan Dalvy who are described below

O'Neill, chief of Clan Dealbuidhe and of Tradraighe, a district in the barony of Inchiquin, county of Clare, is thus mentioned by O'Heerin :

The land of Clan Dalvy of the poets
Was ruled by O'Neill chief of Fionnluaragh,
The forces of Tradree came to his fortress,
The descendant of the yellow-haired chiefs."


It appears that these O'Neills of Thomond were originally some
of the O'Neills of Ulster, some of whom, as stated in Ferrer's
History of Limerick, (pp. 258, 865), changed the name to Nihell,
of which name there were many respectable families in the counties
of Limerick and Clare, I have also made a direct link in rootsireland showing the use of Neilan and Nihell in the same line




As far as being a cousin I don't know how far the Family Finder can go back, but all four of Charles Henry O'Neill'S grandparents were O'Neills and only married O'Neills back to when we left Shane's Castle, so I am literally 1/32 O'Neill, with 7/8 Irish ancestry 1/8 Welsh through Montreal and St. John's.

There is a Michael O'Neill, H Tynan Magennis O'Neil and Vincent Robert Herold who has a Jan Marie Neilan listed are the most likely souce of the connection between us, maybe I will contact them and see are there any male ancestors that have tested their STR Markers which would give us some insight.

Leitir Fura
07-25-2016, 02:17 AM
Can u expand on the MacInnes / MacDonald L720 association and who the MacDonald's tested were? Do u know where they were likely from and likely period? Obviously name did not come into existence until possibly late 10th century where as L720 is much earlier but may have all been western seaboard of Scotland e.g. Morvern area. Whether they were Dal Riatan prior to that is an interesting point also. Interesting also that Somerled connection to MacDonald has a strong link with MacInnes in 12th century in expelling Vikings from Morvern / Ardnarmurchan etc as his initial warriors and that Somerled's line were highly likely of Norse line of Jarl Gille (originally based Coll or Colonsay ???? I understand)

You comments would be appreciated

.... take for instance the Lord of the Isles McDonalds who according to the pedigrees are of the same stock as Clan McInnes, if you look at the Clan McInnes project you will find a cluster of L720 McInnes with an excellant GD between them and you will find that they match a cluster of McDonald's and septs of McDonalds who also have the L720 signature.

.... regarding McLellan origins, they are of Clan McNab stock who were said to be a branch of Clan McDonald which ties in perfectly for the Uist McLellan's, of course there are many differant McLellan's just like any other Irish or Scottish clan however the evidence clearly points to these Uist McLellan's as being of McDonald Lord of the Isles stock

St. Fillan (Fhaolain, Foelan) was the son of St. Kentigerna and Feriach. was also known as Foelan.
He became an abbot near St. Andrews in 8th Century Scotland. He retired and built a church at Glendochart in Perthshire. "He died on 19 January, 703 A.D. His feast day is January 19.

Gille is an ancient Gaelic prefix meaning steward, disciple, follower, or son of . the surnames Gilliland, Gilfillian, Gilleland, McClelland, MacLelland, Leland, Whelan and Phelan all mean disciple of St. Fillan (which means "little wolf.") The root word is Mac-Giolla-Fhaolain (Gaelic). The Gillilands and the MacLellands, along with the MacRaes, were the arms bearers (warriors) for the McKenzie Clan in Rosshire for eight centuries.

Peter MacDonald
08-04-2016, 12:46 AM
The Clan Donald DNA Project points to R1A for the MacInnes / MacDonald Chiefly lines. Note my paternal is not that of the MacDonald Chiefly line but R1B (L1335/L1065).

Peter MacDonald
08-04-2016, 12:48 AM
oneillabu, just wondering if you could explain how you determine which historical records/traditions are reliable or non-reliable?

oneillabu
08-06-2016, 08:52 PM
oneillabu, just wondering if you could explain how you determine which historical records/traditions are reliable or non-reliable?

Well regarding an R1A McDonald this is simple to determine because there is no such pedigree in existence. This means we are into NPE speculation or else a McDonald from the Norse Female line that used the McDonald surname, either way it is of no use whatsoever in determining the descendants of the Dal Riada migration so there is no point in dwelling on this subject.

Which pedigrees are reliable? I would say virtually none taken in their entirety however in order to produce these bogus pedigree claims some Genuine Core pedigree's must have existed and this is where we use DNA to try and match existing haplotype's to written pedigree's.

If we look at the criteria for the Dal Riada migration we find that the early origin is Munster so we must look for matches from this area in upstream SNP's, we also find this pedigree for Cairbre Riada in the Book of Ballymote which is widely believed to be the most reliable of the early sources

Aongus Tuirimheach 81st Monarch also had a Son Fiacha Fearmara from whom stem the Dal Riada (250 BC Approx)
Fiacha Fearmara
Ailill Erand
Feradach
Forgo
Maine
Arnail
Ro-Thrir
Trir
Ro-Sin
Sin
Deda mac Sin
Íar mac Dedad
Ailill
Eogan
Edersceal 95th Monarch
Conaire Mor 97th Monarch
Daire Dornmor
Coirpre Crom-chend
Mug-lama
Conaire Coem (Conaire the second) 111th Monarch descended from Fiacha Fearmara
Cairbre Riada was the first king of Dalriada in Scotland (Irish, meaning Riada's share or portion)

Now if we continue this pedigree to Erc from which stems all the Royal Scottish lines we find the following line

KIONGA, Second King of Dalriada
FELIM LAMH-FOIDH, King of Dalriada
EOCHY FORTAMAIL
FERGUS UALLACH
AENEAS FEAST
EOCHY MUN-REANHUR
EORC
LOARN, last King of Dalriada. He assisted his grandson, Fergus Mor Mac Eorca, in his war against the Picts in 498 (or, according to the Scottish Chronicles, in 424) and who became the founder of the Scottish monarchy
EORCA (or EARCA), married Muirredach son of Eoghan (or Eugene).

What we see here is that there were two migrations to Scotland, a very early one shown here and the Fergus Mor Mac Earca in the early Sixth century, we also see from this Book of Ballymote pedigree that we find a connection between the Dal Riada and Niall of the Nine Hostages, some pedigrees say that Muircheartach Mor Mac Earca was a Brother of Fergus and he was the ancestor of the O'Neill's of Ulster, other pedigrees say that Aongus Tuirimheach produced another Son who was the ancestor of the O'Neill's of Ulster shown below


Aongus Tuirimheach 81st Monarch
Enda Agneach 84th Monarch son of Aongus Tuirimheach
Asaman Eamhnadh
Roighnein Ruadh P of Ireland
Finnlaoch P of Ireland
Fionn
Eochaid Feidlioch 93rd Monarch
Breas Nar Lothair
Lugaidh Srabh-N Dearg 98th Monarch
Criomthan Niadh-Nar 100th Monarch
Fearadach 102nd Monarch
Fiacha Finn Ola 104th Monarch
Tuathal Teachmar 106th Monarch
Feidhlimhidh Reachtmar 108th Monarch
Conn Ceadcathach110th Monarch of Ireland , Fiachadh Suidhe (Ancestor of O'Faolain), Eochaid Fionn (Ancestor of O'Nolan)
Art Ean Fhear 112th Monarch ancestor of O'Hart
Cormac Mac Art 115th Monarch
Cairbre Liffechar 117th Monarch had three Sons, Eochaid Dubhlen father of the Three Collas, Eocho and Fiacha Srabhteine (284ad)
Fiacha Srabhteine 120th Monarch Ancestor of O'Neill
Eochy Moyvane 124th Monarch
Niall of the nine hostages


So if we were to look for a DNA type that shows the following

1: Early Munster origin
2:Genetic Distance consistent with around 300 BC which is the beginning of the early Scottish line from Fiacha Fearmara son of Aongus Tuirimheach
3:A separate branch from Aongus Tuirimheach with similar Genetic Distances consistent with a separate Fergus Mor Mac Earca and O'Neill line
4:Two separate lines, one Ancient Scottish and one Ancient Irish with a Genetic Distances consistent with around 500 AD
5: Scottish Surnames consistent with the 1450 MS pedigrees showing distinct lines from Earc
6: A person or Person's with the O'Neill surname

If these six criteria are found in a single SNP then Occam's razor should apply here

So now lets look at S5488 and it's downstream S7200 and L720 snp's

Criteria 1, do we find an early Munster Origin? The answer is a definitive Yes, we find the Z16294+ O'Carroll of Ely cluster whose territory exists in the Musraighe lands of Munster, we also find that the FGC11358 is very much Munster in origin with O'Connor Corcomroe Type, R-L1336 and many other ancient surnames from this region, indeed many are still living in these areas

Criteria 2, In the case of FGC11358 I checked the Genetic distance between myself and FGC11358 people and found the following

AVERAGE GD TO FGC11358 = 35 OR 2500 YEARS APPROX (22 tested to 111 markers giving this average of 35)

So this establishes the early Munster origin but what about S7200

Criteria 3:

In the case of S7200 I checked the Genetic distance between myself and S7200 people and found the following

AVERAGE GD TO S7200 = 35 OR 2500 YEARS APPROX (16 tested to 111 markers giving this average of 35 )

This is remarkable consistency and clearly indicates a split between an S7200 Scottish line and an Irish L720 line around 2500 years ago which is within the time frame given for Aongus Tuirimheach

Criteria 4:
In the case of L720 I checked the Genetic distance between myself and some L720 people and found the following

AVERAGE GD TO L720 = 20 OR 1600 YEARS APPROX (3 tested to 111 markersgiving this average of 20)

It should be noted here that one of these is an O'Driscol from Cork which is a Dal Fiatach name taken from Edersceal who you will find on the S7200 pedigree above, the other person's are McLellan from Uist and Farris, although only three people have tested to 111 markers I have no doubt that the same consistency that I found for the others would be found in the other L720 people

Criteria 5:

Here are the pedigree's for the Lord of the Isles McDonald's taken from the Scottish 1450 MS

son of Alexander
son of Donald
son of John
son of young Angus
son of big Angus
son of Donald
son of Ronald
son of Sorley (Somerled)
son of Gille Brighde
son of Gilleonan (Gilladomnan)
son of Solomon
son of Meargadh
son of Suibhne
son of Niallghus
son of Maine
son of Godfrey
son of Fergus Mor Mac Earca
son of Earc
son of Carthann (Crimthann)
son of Earc

I have the following L720 McDonald's in my database

183551 McDonald (Somerled the first)
&9hhxh McDonald (Somerled the first)
&KLMOQ McDonald (Somerled the first)
&CZAPG McCaul (Sept of McDonnell lord of the Isles)

I also have the following L720 McInnes who are of the same stock as McDonald

40253 McInnes (Siol Gillivray) t4n9d
66587 McInnes (Somerled the first)
36977 McInnes (Somerled the first)
205362 McInnes (Somerled the first)
161880 McInnes (Somerled the first)
89266 McInnes (Somerled the first)
197174 McInnes (Somerled the first)
31304 McInnes (Somerled the first)

Note, there is a really good Genetic distance between these so they do not come from one recent common ancestor

The name Gillis is also associated with the Lord of the Isles McDonald's and I have the following L720 Gillis people in my database

136568 Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)
RK986 Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)
NYWZM Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)
YX6FD Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)
15990 Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)
257775 Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)


Here is the pedigree for Clan Chattan taken from the 1450 MS

son of Gille Chriost
son of Malcolm (Maelcolaim)
son of Donald
son of Murchadh
son of Suibhne
son of Seadh
son of Neachtain
son of Gille Chattan
son of Gille Bratha
son of Diarmaid the Lector
son of Earc
son of Conlaith
son of Fearchar
son of Fearadhach
son of Fergus
son of Neachtain
son of Colman
son of Buadhan
son of Eochaid
son of Muireadhach
son of Loarne Mor
son of Earc

I have the following L720 people with Clan Chattan surnames in my database

33803 McQuilken (Clann Gille Chattain) Rathlin Island xkntx
229077 Angus MacIntosh (Clann Gille Chattain)
228771 Gussie MacIntosh (Clann Gille Chattain)
q7vts McIntosh (Clann Gille Chattain)
88843 McIntosh (Clann Gille Chattain)
22006 Davidson, (Clann Gille Chattain)
222733 McPherson (Clann Gille Chattain)

I also have the following Clan McNab L720 matches who are given from the Kenneth McAlpine line

166258 McClellan (McNab Gille Fhaolain)
207482 Weir (McNab)
140820 McLellan (McNab Gille Fhaolain) North Uist
247731 McLellan (McNab Gille Fhaolain) South Uist

Criteria 6: A person or Person's with the O'Neill surname

I currently have four persons including myself with variations of the O'Neill surname, only one of these has tested to 111 markers and the GD between myself and him is 13 which indicates a common ancestor from around 1100 years ago which is when the origin of the O'Neill surname began with Niall Glundubh, bear in mind that the only people who stem from the second line of L720 are these O'Neill's which gives an indication of how rare and old this bloodline is unlike say M222 where you could have over a thousand matches at 67 markers with completely unrelated surnames. I have not even mentioned the S7200 Scottish people, many with names associated with the Lord of the Isles such as Rogers, McDonald, McRory, Anderson etc, as you can see all six criteria above are matched which is remarkable given that S7200 is a select non diverse DNA grouping.

George Chandler
08-07-2016, 12:59 AM
Does someone have the "complete" Kings list of burials at the Iona Abbey from the 1500's?

George

oneillabu
08-07-2016, 06:06 PM
Does someone have the "complete" Kings list of burials at the Iona Abbey from the 1500's?

George

This may help

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iona

George Chandler
08-07-2016, 07:49 PM
This may help

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iona

Thanks yes I've seen that one. The quote found in it "In 1549 an inventory of 48 Scottish, 8 Norwegian and 4 Irish kings was recorded." and it's that inventory that I'm looking for.

George

oneillabu
08-07-2016, 08:05 PM
Thanks yes I've seen that one. The quote found in it "In 1549 an inventory of 48 Scottish, 8 Norwegian and 4 Irish kings was recorded." and it's that inventory that I'm looking for.

George

What about this site

http://www.ionaabbeyandclandonald.com/6-most-ancient-graveyard-in-all-scotland.html

George Chandler
08-08-2016, 01:10 AM
Great website but still doesn't provide the complete list. Hopefully there will be a campaign to exhume the bodies and identify using DNA. Now that there is such an extensive database of SNP's for all the different ancient lineages (related or not). Having most of them in unmarked graves should be enough to justify the DNA testing.

Thanks
George

Leitir Fura
08-08-2016, 03:26 AM
Interesting.... Do all those you have listed definitely test positive for L720 / S299 + or are some likely guesses, and if so which ones please as I would like to understand please. Also are you the only O'Neill / MacNeill that tests definitively positive for L720+

As an aside I understood MS 1405 as it relates to the pedigree of Clann Chattan is known to be flawed prior to 11th century Suibhne, when the Irish attached their own pedigree of kings to it for political reasons.

No doubt more actual L720+ results will help determine the likely origin of a common L720+ ancestor..... For me at this stage it appears the majority of origins from those who test positive all stem from a common ancestor who resided somewhere north of Loch Linnhe, south of Loch Torridon and west of Murray Frith.

Interestingly, the M222 marker seems to have originated with Niall Noigiallach, the 5th century High King of Ulster, who clearly fathered many children with multiple women, as I had written down from somewhere that 20% of all Irish men and 6% in Scottish, (around 150,000), carry Niall’s DNA. Analysis has shown that the M222 marker arrived in Scotland around 500 AD during the period when the tribal Scoti from the north of Ireland colonised the western seaboard creating the Scottish kingdom of Dal Riata. This is not L720 though...

We also now know that around 20,000 modern Scottish men, many of them Macdonalds, are descended from Somerled, (who was Gaelic-Norse) Lord of the Isles who died in 1164. Like Niall Noigiallach, Somerled must have had numerous children with a great many women, and also like Niall, several of his progeny were themselves powerful lords. Hence they were able to propagate their genes more widely than other men.

In addition 12% of Macdonalds do not carry the expected Norse marker of Somerled, (the others do) with several being L720 / S299, but not necessarily of Irish origin on the paternal side. I understood his line came originally from Jarl Gille who was on Coll or Colonsay and who had association with Orkney.

Also doing the maths let’s say that overall 0.18% of the Scottish male population (or 0.0018) test positive for L720 /S299. (Which is where it is at at present I understand - Please correct me as I may have this wrong?) Based on that, however, if we go back to the year 1500, (as the approximate time that my L720 MacInnes ancestors migrated to Skye from Morvern), and based on the then estimated male Scottish population of 250,000; by assuming 50% of the population were males, this equates to only 450 males that would have tested positive for the L720 / S299 at that time based on the current estimated positive testing percentage. Go back earlier and the number shrinks even more...

Your thoughts would be appreciated ...

George Chandler
08-08-2016, 02:46 PM
Does anyone know who broke the line prior to Somerled or if it in fact happened with him?