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Leitir Fura
08-09-2016, 09:39 AM
Broke what line... and if what happened with him..?????? Sorry, I don't understand your question. Can u rephrase it and I maybe able to help..

MacUalraig
08-09-2016, 01:08 PM
Thanks yes I've seen that one. The quote found in it "In 1549 an inventory of 48 Scottish, 8 Norwegian and 4 Irish kings was recorded." and it's that inventory that I'm looking for.

George

1549 is a well known date in Scottish Gaelic historiography as it was the year Donald Monro wrote his account of the isles 'Description of the Occidental ie Western Isles of Scotland.

You can get it along with Martin Martin's Description of the Western Islands of Scotland circa 1695, they are both fascinating reads.

"Narrest this be twa mile of sea lyis ane Ile callit in Irish leid Icholum chille, that is to say in English Saint Colms Ile, ane fair mayne Ile...

... Within this Tomb, according to our Scottis and Irish Chronicles, thair lyis 48 crownit Scottis Kings, throw the quhilk this Ile has bene richlie dotit be the Scottis Kings, as we have hard. "

I guess this is why people are citing 1549 but that would not appear to be the date of the inventory - Monro doesn't name any individual Scottish royal.

George Chandler
08-09-2016, 01:49 PM
Broke what line... and if what happened with him..?????? Sorry, I don't understand your question. Can u rephrase it and I maybe able to help..

My understanding was that the original suspected genealogy for Somerled went back to the royal Dal Riata line but the DNA testing confirmed the line is R1a and likely Scandinavian Viking descent. If that's the case then who is the ancestor? Was the break in the line attributed to a Viking raider farther back in his ancestry or something more recent?

George

oneillabu
08-09-2016, 11:12 PM
Interesting.... Do all those you have listed definitely test positive for L720 / S299 + or are some likely guesses, and if so which ones please as I would like to understand please. Also are you the only O'Neill / MacNeill that tests definitively positive for L720+

As an aside I understood MS 1405 as it relates to the pedigree of Clann Chattan is known to be flawed prior to 11th century Suibhne, when the Irish attached their own pedigree of kings to it for political reasons.

No doubt more actual L720+ results will help determine the likely origin of a common L720+ ancestor..... For me at this stage it appears the majority of origins from those who test positive all stem from a common ancestor who resided somewhere north of Loch Linnhe, south of Loch Torridon and west of Murray Frith.

Interestingly, the M222 marker seems to have originated with Niall Noigiallach, the 5th century High King of Ulster, who clearly fathered many children with multiple women, as I had written down from somewhere that 20% of all Irish men and 6% in Scottish, (around 150,000), carry Niall’s DNA. Analysis has shown that the M222 marker arrived in Scotland around 500 AD during the period when the tribal Scoti from the north of Ireland colonised the western seaboard creating the Scottish kingdom of Dal Riata. This is not L720 though...

We also now know that around 20,000 modern Scottish men, many of them Macdonalds, are descended from Somerled, (who was Gaelic-Norse) Lord of the Isles who died in 1164. Like Niall Noigiallach, Somerled must have had numerous children with a great many women, and also like Niall, several of his progeny were themselves powerful lords. Hence they were able to propagate their genes more widely than other men.

In addition 12% of Macdonalds do not carry the expected Norse marker of Somerled, (the others do) with several being L720 / S299, but not necessarily of Irish origin on the paternal side. I understood his line came originally from Jarl Gille who was on Coll or Colonsay and who had association with Orkney.

Also doing the maths let’s say that overall 0.18% of the Scottish male population (or 0.0018) test positive for L720 /S299. (Which is where it is at at present I understand - Please correct me as I may have this wrong?) Based on that, however, if we go back to the year 1500, (as the approximate time that my L720 MacInnes ancestors migrated to Skye from Morvern), and based on the then estimated male Scottish population of 250,000; by assuming 50% of the population were males, this equates to only 450 males that would have tested positive for the L720 / S299 at that time based on the current estimated positive testing percentage. Go back earlier and the number shrinks even more...

Your thoughts would be appreciated ...


Interesting.... Do all those you have listed definitely test positive for L720 / S299 + or are some likely guesses, and if so which ones please as I would like to understand please.

Of the Scottish side of the L720 cluster some have tested for L720 and some have not however because it is a unique signature there really is no doubt regarding their status, especially those who have tested to 111 markers because DYS462 is a really slow marker and all have the unique DF21 value of 12 for this marker, I would have to say that every single person I contacted about testing for L720 proved to be positive so I would have to say that I am 100% confident as to their status

QUOTE=Leitir Fura;177601]
Also are you the only O'Neill / MacNeill that tests definitively positive for L720+ [/QUOTE]

The answer is no, the Neylon's of Clare have tested positive for L720 and there is a GD of 13 between myself and them. The Neylon's of Clare were hereditary Physicians to the O'Brien High Kings and this connection between the O'Neill's and the O'Brien's began with Maoilseachlainn sometimes friendly and sometimes not however there were many intermarriages between them, indeed a badge on the Harp of Brian Boru had the Red Hand of O'Neill flanked by two Wolfhounds. which was the Dal gCais signature found on their throne, the O'Neill's of Thomond and the O'Neills of Ballyneale are from this Ulster line


87 Niall 'of the Nine Hostages' +405
88. Conal Cremthainn
89. Fearghus Cearbhaill
90. Diarmond
91. Colman Mor
92. Suibhne
93. Airmedeach Caech
94. Diermod Dian
95. Murchadh Midheach
96. Domhnall High King +763
97. Donnchadh High King +797
98. Maolruanaidh +843
99. Maoilseachlainn (Malachy I) High King +862

In my opinion this is the true core pedigree of Niall of the Nine Hostages, Conall Gulban and others were appended to this in the Eight Century, bear in mind that the name Cremthainn was also used by St Columba




As an aside I understood MS 1405 as it relates to the pedigree of Clann Chattan is known to be flawed prior to 11th century Suibhne, when the Irish attached their own pedigree of kings to it for political reasons.

This is why we compare DNA matches to written pedigrees and check Genetic Distances within given subclades and slow marker matches,



No doubt more actual L720+ results will help determine the likely origin of a common L720+ ancestor..... For me at this stage it appears the majority of origins from those who test positive all stem from a common ancestor who resided somewhere north of Loch Linnhe, south of Loch Torridon and west of Murray Frith.

Not so, the L720 cluster stems from an Irish O’Driscol and there is also an O’Carroll match that almost certainly L720+, note that the name Fearghus Cearbhaill is on the pedigree above, the source of the O’Carroll surname is the name Cearbhaill. This O’Carroll may well be the remnants of a line of the O’Carroll’s thought to be extinct namely the O’Carroll’s of Tara



Interestingly, the M222 marker seems to have originated with Niall Noigiallach, the 5th century High King of Ulster, who clearly fathered many children with multiple women, as I had written down from somewhere that 20% of all Irish men and 6% in Scottish, (around 150,000), carry Niall’s DNA. Analysis has shown that the M222 marker arrived in Scotland around 500 AD during the period when the tribal Scoti from the north of Ireland colonised the western seaboard creating the Scottish kingdom of Dal Riata. This is not L720 though..


Not so, the M222 marker is over two thousand years old and in my opinion based on my own research has no connection to Niall Noigiallach and most likely began in the Strathclyde area of Scotland and May well be the DNA type of the Strathclyde Britons. Regarding all these alleged offspring of Niall unless he was a Celtic God flying around all over Britain and Ireland and beyond impregnating females in his wake then this is total bunkum, what was it Trinity College called it, “The Genghis Khan effect” what a load of nonsense to compare a Petty Irish Chieftain on a small Island that the Romans did not even bother with to the Mongol ruler who ruled over entire continents and was provided with a fresh supply of Virgins on a daily basis, the Irish Chieftains spent most of their time fighting and killing their own Kin so being a Clan ruler was a very hazardous pastime, also the Early Royal families supplied most of the members of the early Celtic Church which would have resulted in small select Royal lineages and not as you suggest
.




Like Niall Noigiallach, Somerled must have had numerous children with a great many women, and also like Niall, several of his progeny were themselves powerful lords. Hence they were able to propagate their genes more widely than other men.

In addition 12% of Macdonalds do not carry the expected Norse marker of Somerled, (the others do) with several being L720 / S299, but not necessarily of Irish origin on the paternal side. I understood his line came originally from Jarl Gille who was on Coll or Colonsay and who had association with Orkney.



This is not reflected in any of the written pedigrees for the Lord of the Isles because Illegitimate Children of Royal birth were usually acknowledged and if you look at the Royal Scottish lines there were not that many male heirs







Also doing the maths let’s say that overall 0.18% of the Scottish male population (or 0.0018) test positive for L720 /S299. (Which is where it is at at present I understand - Please correct me as I may have this wrong?) Based on that, however, if we go back to the year 1500, (as the approximate time that my L720 MacInnes ancestors migrated to Skye from Morvern), and based on the then estimated male Scottish population of 250,000; by assuming 50% of the population were males, this equates to only 450 males that would have tested positive for the L720 / S299 at that time based on the current estimated positive testing percentage. Go back earlier and the number shrinks even more...

Your thoughts would be appreciated ...

The fact that S7200 is almost 100% Scottish and Irish speaks for itself, only a handful of people of Irish and Scottish descent have actually had their DNA tested take for example my own surname, it is estimated that there are nearly 30,000 people with a variation of the O’Neill surname and there are less than 500 people tested to date so there is so much we don’t know yet

Peter MacDonald
08-17-2016, 10:10 PM
My understanding was that the original suspected genealogy for Somerled went back to the royal Dal Riata line but the DNA testing confirmed the line is R1a and likely Scandinavian Viking descent. If that's the case then who is the ancestor? Was the break in the line attributed to a Viking raider farther back in his ancestry or something more recent?

George

Hello George,

I would suspect that the ancestry from Somerled to the current Clan Donald Chiefs has not been broken (please note that I am not stating this for any sort of personal agenda). The connection to Dal Riata would most likely have been through a marriage or perhaps even a fabrication in order to stronger their prestige and claim to lead. Please note that my paternal descent is not that of the Chiefly line.

Here is a link to the SNP results to date from the Clan Donald DNA Project:

http://www.clan-donald-usa.org/index.php/dna-layout/13-dna-project/85-dna-bigy

Peter MacDonald
08-17-2016, 10:46 PM
Well regarding an R1A McDonald this is simple to determine because there is no such pedigree in existence. This means we are into NPE speculation or else a McDonald from the Norse Female line that used the McDonald surname, either way it is of no use whatsoever in determining the descendants of the Dal Riada migration so there is no point in dwelling on this subject.

Which pedigrees are reliable? I would say virtually none taken in their entirety however in order to produce these bogus pedigree claims some Genuine Core pedigree's must have existed and this is where we use DNA to try and match existing haplotype's to written pedigree's.

If we look at the criteria for the Dal Riada migration we find that the early origin is Munster so we must look for matches from this area in upstream SNP's, we also find this pedigree for Cairbre Riada in the Book of Ballymote which is widely believed to be the most reliable of the early sources

Aongus Tuirimheach 81st Monarch also had a Son Fiacha Fearmara from whom stem the Dal Riada (250 BC Approx)
Fiacha Fearmara
Ailill Erand
Feradach
Forgo
Maine
Arnail
Ro-Thrir
Trir
Ro-Sin
Sin
Deda mac Sin
Íar mac Dedad
Ailill
Eogan
Edersceal 95th Monarch
Conaire Mor 97th Monarch
Daire Dornmor
Coirpre Crom-chend
Mug-lama
Conaire Coem (Conaire the second) 111th Monarch descended from Fiacha Fearmara
Cairbre Riada was the first king of Dalriada in Scotland (Irish, meaning Riada's share or portion)

Now if we continue this pedigree to Erc from which stems all the Royal Scottish lines we find the following line

KIONGA, Second King of Dalriada
FELIM LAMH-FOIDH, King of Dalriada
EOCHY FORTAMAIL
FERGUS UALLACH
AENEAS FEAST
EOCHY MUN-REANHUR
EORC
LOARN, last King of Dalriada. He assisted his grandson, Fergus Mor Mac Eorca, in his war against the Picts in 498 (or, according to the Scottish Chronicles, in 424) and who became the founder of the Scottish monarchy
EORCA (or EARCA), married Muirredach son of Eoghan (or Eugene).

What we see here is that there were two migrations to Scotland, a very early one shown here and the Fergus Mor Mac Earca in the early Sixth century, we also see from this Book of Ballymote pedigree that we find a connection between the Dal Riada and Niall of the Nine Hostages, some pedigrees say that Muircheartach Mor Mac Earca was a Brother of Fergus and he was the ancestor of the O'Neill's of Ulster, other pedigrees say that Aongus Tuirimheach produced another Son who was the ancestor of the O'Neill's of Ulster shown below


Aongus Tuirimheach 81st Monarch
Enda Agneach 84th Monarch son of Aongus Tuirimheach
Asaman Eamhnadh
Roighnein Ruadh P of Ireland
Finnlaoch P of Ireland
Fionn
Eochaid Feidlioch 93rd Monarch
Breas Nar Lothair
Lugaidh Srabh-N Dearg 98th Monarch
Criomthan Niadh-Nar 100th Monarch
Fearadach 102nd Monarch
Fiacha Finn Ola 104th Monarch
Tuathal Teachmar 106th Monarch
Feidhlimhidh Reachtmar 108th Monarch
Conn Ceadcathach110th Monarch of Ireland , Fiachadh Suidhe (Ancestor of O'Faolain), Eochaid Fionn (Ancestor of O'Nolan)
Art Ean Fhear 112th Monarch ancestor of O'Hart
Cormac Mac Art 115th Monarch
Cairbre Liffechar 117th Monarch had three Sons, Eochaid Dubhlen father of the Three Collas, Eocho and Fiacha Srabhteine (284ad)
Fiacha Srabhteine 120th Monarch Ancestor of O'Neill
Eochy Moyvane 124th Monarch
Niall of the nine hostages


So if we were to look for a DNA type that shows the following

1: Early Munster origin
2:Genetic Distance consistent with around 300 BC which is the beginning of the early Scottish line from Fiacha Fearmara son of Aongus Tuirimheach
3:A separate branch from Aongus Tuirimheach with similar Genetic Distances consistent with a separate Fergus Mor Mac Earca and O'Neill line
4:Two separate lines, one Ancient Scottish and one Ancient Irish with a Genetic Distances consistent with around 500 AD
5: Scottish Surnames consistent with the 1450 MS pedigrees showing distinct lines from Earc
6: A person or Person's with the O'Neill surname

If these six criteria are found in a single SNP then Occam's razor should apply here

So now lets look at S5488 and it's downstream S7200 and L720 snp's

Criteria 1, do we find an early Munster Origin? The answer is a definitive Yes, we find the Z16294+ O'Carroll of Ely cluster whose territory exists in the Musraighe lands of Munster, we also find that the FGC11358 is very much Munster in origin with O'Connor Corcomroe Type, R-L1336 and many other ancient surnames from this region, indeed many are still living in these areas

Criteria 2, In the case of FGC11358 I checked the Genetic distance between myself and FGC11358 people and found the following

AVERAGE GD TO FGC11358 = 35 OR 2500 YEARS APPROX (22 tested to 111 markers giving this average of 35)

So this establishes the early Munster origin but what about S7200

Criteria 3:

In the case of S7200 I checked the Genetic distance between myself and S7200 people and found the following

AVERAGE GD TO S7200 = 35 OR 2500 YEARS APPROX (16 tested to 111 markers giving this average of 35 )

This is remarkable consistency and clearly indicates a split between an S7200 Scottish line and an Irish L720 line around 2500 years ago which is within the time frame given for Aongus Tuirimheach

Criteria 4:
In the case of L720 I checked the Genetic distance between myself and some L720 people and found the following

AVERAGE GD TO L720 = 20 OR 1600 YEARS APPROX (3 tested to 111 markersgiving this average of 20)

It should be noted here that one of these is an O'Driscol from Cork which is a Dal Fiatach name taken from Edersceal who you will find on the S7200 pedigree above, the other person's are McLellan from Uist and Farris, although only three people have tested to 111 markers I have no doubt that the same consistency that I found for the others would be found in the other L720 people

Criteria 5:

Here are the pedigree's for the Lord of the Isles McDonald's taken from the Scottish 1450 MS

son of Alexander
son of Donald
son of John
son of young Angus
son of big Angus
son of Donald
son of Ronald
son of Sorley (Somerled)
son of Gille Brighde
son of Gilleonan (Gilladomnan)
son of Solomon
son of Meargadh
son of Suibhne
son of Niallghus
son of Maine
son of Godfrey
son of Fergus Mor Mac Earca
son of Earc
son of Carthann (Crimthann)
son of Earc

I have the following L720 McDonald's in my database

183551 McDonald (Somerled the first)
&9hhxh McDonald (Somerled the first)
&KLMOQ McDonald (Somerled the first)
&CZAPG McCaul (Sept of McDonnell lord of the Isles)

I also have the following L720 McInnes who are of the same stock as McDonald

40253 McInnes (Siol Gillivray) t4n9d
66587 McInnes (Somerled the first)
36977 McInnes (Somerled the first)
205362 McInnes (Somerled the first)
161880 McInnes (Somerled the first)
89266 McInnes (Somerled the first)
197174 McInnes (Somerled the first)
31304 McInnes (Somerled the first)

Note, there is a really good Genetic distance between these so they do not come from one recent common ancestor

The name Gillis is also associated with the Lord of the Isles McDonald's and I have the following L720 Gillis people in my database

136568 Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)
RK986 Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)
NYWZM Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)
YX6FD Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)
15990 Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)
257775 Gillis or Gillechrist (Somerled the first)


Here is the pedigree for Clan Chattan taken from the 1450 MS

son of Gille Chriost
son of Malcolm (Maelcolaim)
son of Donald
son of Murchadh
son of Suibhne
son of Seadh
son of Neachtain
son of Gille Chattan
son of Gille Bratha
son of Diarmaid the Lector
son of Earc
son of Conlaith
son of Fearchar
son of Fearadhach
son of Fergus
son of Neachtain
son of Colman
son of Buadhan
son of Eochaid
son of Muireadhach
son of Loarne Mor
son of Earc

I have the following L720 people with Clan Chattan surnames in my database

33803 McQuilken (Clann Gille Chattain) Rathlin Island xkntx
229077 Angus MacIntosh (Clann Gille Chattain)
228771 Gussie MacIntosh (Clann Gille Chattain)
q7vts McIntosh (Clann Gille Chattain)
88843 McIntosh (Clann Gille Chattain)
22006 Davidson, (Clann Gille Chattain)
222733 McPherson (Clann Gille Chattain)

I also have the following Clan McNab L720 matches who are given from the Kenneth McAlpine line

166258 McClellan (McNab Gille Fhaolain)
207482 Weir (McNab)
140820 McLellan (McNab Gille Fhaolain) North Uist
247731 McLellan (McNab Gille Fhaolain) South Uist

Criteria 6: A person or Person's with the O'Neill surname

I currently have four persons including myself with variations of the O'Neill surname, only one of these has tested to 111 markers and the GD between myself and him is 13 which indicates a common ancestor from around 1100 years ago which is when the origin of the O'Neill surname began with Niall Glundubh, bear in mind that the only people who stem from the second line of L720 are these O'Neill's which gives an indication of how rare and old this bloodline is unlike say M222 where you could have over a thousand matches at 67 markers with completely unrelated surnames. I have not even mentioned the S7200 Scottish people, many with names associated with the Lord of the Isles such as Rogers, McDonald, McRory, Anderson etc, as you can see all six criteria above are matched which is remarkable given that S7200 is a select non diverse DNA grouping.

oneillabu,

From what I can make from your "argument" is that since the Clan Donald Chiefs (who are R1A) don't specifically match your R1B L720 Y DNA, there must be a NPE in their line???? Do you ever take a step back and look at what you are writing?? From what I have been able to gather from these and a number of other posts that you have authored, is that you are obsessed with linking your terminal SNP to historic family lines regardless of the fact that you really don't have anything to back up your statements (aside from wishful thinking of course).

I am sure that many individuals on this forum have similar data to yours that could be used to craft many fanciful ancestries but do not do that. I assume this is due to the fact that most people realize that a couple of pieces of data and a personal theory (that has a great deal of bias) isn't research.

George Chandler
08-17-2016, 11:29 PM
Hello George,

I would suspect that the ancestry from Somerled to the current Clan Donald Chiefs has not been broken (please note that I am not stating this for any sort of personal agenda). The connection to Dal Riata would most likely have been through a marriage or perhaps even a fabrication in order to stronger their prestige and claim to lead. Please note that my paternal descent is not that of the Chiefly line.



George

Here is a link to the SNP results to date from the Clan Donald DNA Project:

http://www.clan-donald-usa.org/index.php/dna-layout/13-dna-project/85-dna-bigy

Hello Peter.

Thanks for the information an no offense meant. I find the Somerled line really interesting and was wondering there was anything known pre the Clan Donald Chiefly lineage. I notice that the web site says "An additional historical note supporting the Gaelic descent of Somerled was that contemporary Norse historians treated him as descended from the Dalriadic family of Argyll." I wasn't sure what the most recent consensus was regarding the paternal origin of Somerled.

George

Peter MacDonald
08-17-2016, 11:59 PM
George,

No offence taken. As I said I suspect that the line is not broken, the one thing that is for sure is that the current chiefs who have tested share a common ancestor that would be John 1st Lord of the Isles. Anything beyond this is mot absolute, this said I personally see no reason to doubt that John 1st Lord of the Isles paternal ancestry is unbroken directly from Somerled (contrary to what some others might think, which is usually connected with some personal agenda or claim).

Peter

Dubhthach
08-18-2016, 07:16 AM
The other way to look at is is that Somerled was given a genealogy for political reasons. By linking him into the Aírghialla they then can use the clearly suspect Aírghialla genealogy to link to the Dál Cuinn.

ergo there is no break in the lineage, simply because the lineage pre-Somerled is a fabrication for political purposes.

Alex Woolf has decent article up on academia.edu

https://www.academia.edu/313174/The_origins_and_ancestry_of_Somerled

Peter MacDonald
08-20-2016, 03:10 AM
George,

I do not think an actual complete list of the names exist. Here is the table of contents of John Marsden's book "The Tombs of the kings"

11083

The person who shared this information has a website on the Iona Abbey, however be warned the site is heavily focused on the Somerled and Clan Donald connection to Iona:

http://www.ionaabbeyandclandonald.com/apps/search?q=1549

Hope this helps.


Peter

Muireagain
08-20-2016, 05:32 PM
The MacDougalls are also descendants of Somerled and are not R1a. The results from the northern Clan Donald are not by themselves a definite identification of Somerled's origin...

George Chandler
08-20-2016, 05:55 PM
George,

I do not think an actual complete list of the names exist. Here is the table of contents of John Marsden's book "The Tombs of the kings"

11083


The person who shared this information has a website on the Iona Abbey, however be warned the site is heavily focused on the Somerled and Clan Donald connection to Iona:

http://www.ionaabbeyandclandonald.com/apps/search?q=1549

Hope this helps.


Peter

Thanks Peter that does help. If true..those graves could provide so many genetic answers.

George

Peter MacDonald
08-20-2016, 06:57 PM
The MacDougalls are also descendants of Somerled and are not R1a. The results from the northern Clan Donald are not by themselves a definite identification of Somerled's origin...

Muireagain,

There isn't much data on MacDougalls in the FTDNA McDougall project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/McDougall/default.aspx?section=yresults

As well the Clan McDougall Society appears to disagree with your point (expert below link):
http://macdougall.org/our-heritage-2/our-heritage/somerled/

"Descendants

Somerled is proudly claimed as a patrilineal ancestor by several Scottish clans. Recent genetic studies suggest that Somerled has hundreds of thousands of patrilineal descendants, and that his patrilineal origins may lie in Scandinavia. Since the early 2000s, several genetic studies have been conducted on men bearing surnames traditionally associated with patrilineal descendants of Somerled. The results of one such study, published in 2004, revealed that five chiefs of Clan Donald, who all traced their patrilineal descent from Somerled, were indeed descended from a common ancestor. Further testing of men bearing the surnames MacAlister, MacDonald, and MacDougall, found that, of a small sample group, 40 percent of MacAlisters, 30 percent of MacDougalls, and 18 percent of MacDonalds shared this genetic marker. These percentages suggest that Somerled may have almost 500,000 living patrilineal descendants. The results of a later study, published in 2011, revealed that, of a sample of 164 men bearing the surname MacDonald, 23 percent carried the same marker borne by the clan chiefs. This marker was identified as a subgroup of haplogroup M17, known to be extremely rare in Celtic-speaking areas of Scotland, but very common in Norway. Both genetic studies concluded that Somerled’s patrilineal ancestors originated in Scandinavia."

Muireagain
08-20-2016, 09:10 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/McDougall/default.aspx?section=yresults

R1a MacDougall are very rare (only 2), if the MacDougall are descendants of Somerled why aren't there more?

Peter MacDonald
08-20-2016, 09:50 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/McDougall/default.aspx?section=yresults

R1a MacDougall are very rare (only 2), if the MacDougall are descendants of Somerled why aren't there more?

Mulreagain,

Unfortunately only a very limited number of MacDougalls have tested their Y DNA through FTDNA. The number of persons with the surname of McDougall don't total a very large number unfortunately. I didn't notice if the current McDougall Chief has tested his Y DNA, if so do you know if he made his results public? Do you have any knowledge of his Y DNA? You probably already know the MacDonald Chief's Y DNA (R1A) type only accounts for a limited amount (20-30%) of the Y DNA of Clan Donald males.

Peter

Muireagain
08-20-2016, 10:00 PM
The chiefs of the northern Clan Donald have been tested. However southern Clan Donald, Lord of the Isles, are lost. Without confirmation from another of Somerled descendants it an assumption that's the northern Chiefs of Clan Donald represent the descendants of Somerled.

Peter MacDonald
08-20-2016, 10:15 PM
The chiefs of the northern Clan Donald have been tested. However southern Clan Donald, Lord of the Isles, are lost. Without confirmation from another of Somerled descendants it an assumption that's the northern Chiefs of Clan Donald represent the descendants of Somerled.

Do you know whether or not the Clan McDougall or MacAlister Chiefs have taken Y DNA tests? If so, what were the results?

I assume you realize that both Clan Donald North and South both descend paternally from John 1st Lord of the Isles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacDonald_of_Dunnyveg

Peter

oneillabu
08-20-2016, 10:23 PM
oneillabu,

From what I can make from your "argument" is that since the Clan Donald Chiefs (who are R1A) don't specifically match your R1B L720 Y DNA, there must be a NPE in their line???? Do you ever take a step back and look at what you are writing?? From what I have been able to gather from these and a number of other posts that you have authored, is that you are obsessed with linking your terminal SNP to historic family lines regardless of the fact that you really don't have anything to back up your statements (aside from wishful thinking of course).

I am sure that many individuals on this forum have similar data to yours that could be used to craft many fanciful ancestries but do not do that. I assume this is due to the fact that most people realize that a couple of pieces of data and a personal theory (that has a great deal of bias) isn't research.

I did not write the Irish pedigrees that Clan Donald like to proudly display, you cannot have it both ways, if the as you say an Irish Lord of the Isles ancestor prior to the Vikings did not exist THEN I SUGGEST CLAN DONALD STOP DISPLAYING SUCH MATERIAL OR ELSE LABEL IT AS FALSE and stick to their guns regarding this fictitious Irish Lord of the Isles. This does not stop me however from researching these ancient pedigrees and matching them to surnames such as the link between Clan McInnes and Clan Donald etc no matter how much the McDonald DNA project may try to hide people with clear L720 signatures to prevent them from ever being tested, this is a disgusting way to treat members of a project because the blood in their veins will never change not matter how much others may wish it to be so. I always back up my statements with DNA facts such as Genetic Distance within SNP's, slow marker matches etc which is something that is sadly lacking by others on this forum, keep it vague and wooly seems to be the order of the day and please don't upset the Status Quo regardless of what the actual DNA evidence says

Peter MacDonald
08-20-2016, 10:47 PM
I did not write the Irish pedigrees that Clan Donald like to proudly display, you cannot have it both ways, if the as you say an Irish Lord of the Isles ancestor prior to the Vikings did not exist THEN I SUGGEST CLAN DONALD STOP DISPLAYING SUCH MATERIAL OR ELSE LABEL IT AS FALSE and stick to their guns regarding this fictitious Irish Lord of the Isles. This does not stop me however from researching these ancient pedigrees and matching them to surnames such as the link between Clan McInnes and Clan Donald etc no matter how much the McDonald DNA project may try to hide people with clear L720 signatures to prevent them from ever being tested, this is a disgusting way to treat members of a project because the blood in their veins will never change not matter how much others may wish it to be so. I always back up my statements with DNA facts such as Genetic Distance within SNP's, slow marker matches etc which is something that is sadly lacking by others on this forum, keep it vague and wooly seems to be the order of the day and please don't upset the Status Quo regardless of what the actual DNA evidence says

If you take the time to look at all the results of the Clan Donald DNA Project, and just not those of L720, you might realize that Clan Donald is a joining of many diverse paternal ancestries. Further, I think at this point in time using the term "DNA Facts" is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps observations can be made, however I don't think much can be considered fact at this time unfortunately.

As for your comments, perhaps there is a conspiracy to hide L720 persons to cover up their "birth right"...perhaps they descend from Irish royalty and/or Clan Chiefs. It is possible as nothing has been proved of ancient lines as of yet. I feel however this seems like a lot of work on the part many people to suppress the knowledge of old defeated royal and/or family lines of persons who are L720. All this conspiracy makes it seem very plausible that the line of L720 would have to be much greater...perhaps L720 is the Holy Grail...the blood line of Jesus!!!

oneillabu
08-20-2016, 11:17 PM
If you take the time to look at all the results of the Clan Donald DNA Project, and just not those of L720, you might realize that Clan Donald is a joining of many diverse paternal ancestries. Further, I think at this point in time using the term "DNA Facts" is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps observations can be made, however I don't think much can be considered fact at this time unfortunately.

As for your comments, perhaps there is a conspiracy to hide L720 persons to cover up their "birth right"...perhaps they descend from Irish royalty and/or Clan Chiefs. It is possible as nothing has been proved of ancient lines as of yet. I feel however this seems like a lot of work on the part many people to suppress the knowledge of old defeated royal and/or family lines of persons who are L720. All this conspiracy makes it seem very plausible that the line of L720 would have to be much greater...perhaps L720 is the Holy Grail...the blood line of Jesus!!!

You know what I am talking about, people who had tested L720+ were not ever grouped together in the McDonald project but were scattered in various unassigned groups with people they were clearly not related to, so tell me why would a project group refuse to advise its members as to the best possible path to follow to advance their knowledge of their ancient ancestors unless there was an agenda at play.

The fact that this project has become hidden from prying eyes speaks for itself, it has nothing to do with privacy but more to do with the status quo, you can make all the silly remarks you like but it will not alter the fact that this project does not act in the best interest of all its members. If future L720 results change the direction of my research then I will gladly amend my current position, but I do not see why I should ignore so many pointers that lead to the Dal Riada migration, remember that Clan McDonald years ago proudly proclaimed that they had found this Dal Riada DNA in L1065 which many now believe is the Scottish Pictish signature so their record is not very good to date. I have no agenda other then the truth and FAIR PLAY because everyone's DNA tells a story that deserves to be told and it should not be in the hands of others to determine what they should or should not know.

Peter MacDonald
08-20-2016, 11:41 PM
You know what I am talking about, people who had tested L720+ were not ever grouped together in the McDonald project but were scattered in various unassigned groups with people they were clearly not related to, so tell me why would a project group refuse to advise its members as to the best possible path to follow to advance their knowledge of their ancient ancestors unless there was an agenda at play.

The fact that this project has become hidden from prying eyes speaks for itself, it has nothing to do with privacy but more to do with the status quo, you can make all the silly remarks you like but it will not alter the fact that this project does not act in the best interest of all its members. If future L720 results change the direction of my research then I will gladly amend my current position, but I do not see why I should ignore so many pointers that lead to the Dal Riada migration, remember that Clan McDonald years ago proudly proclaimed that they had found this Dal Riada DNA in L1065 which many now believe is the Scottish Pictish signature so their record is not very good to date. I have no agenda other then the truth and FAIR PLAY because everyone's DNA tells a story that deserves to be told and it should not be in the hands of others to determine what they should or should not know.

What are you talking about...."The fact that this project has become hidden from prying eyes speaks for itself, it has nothing to do with privacy but more to do with the status quo,"???? The Clan Donald DNA Project has all of its results available on their website. Further to this, all the persons who wished to be contacted by others are given the YSearch option to allow people to send them email.

Are you upset that various project admins don't bend over backwards to carry out your requests/demands of them?? If this matter is so important to you why haven't you set up an L720 group either on FTDNA or elsewhere?? You are able to email L720 persons/potential persons from your matches and you can post on the project pages (have you ever done this?). If people don't get back to you, that is their personal choice. I know project admins take a lot of flak from members even just for sending out testing options or bulk emails WRT project news.

Peter MacDonald
08-21-2016, 12:25 AM
oneillabu,

You might get greater benefit from testing and having others testing with an NGS test such as Big Y or Y Elite. I only see 4 persons on Alex Williamson's Big Y Tree who are L720 (Farris, McClellan, McLure and O'Neill). Makes it appear there is not much data to date for L720 unfortunately.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=6

oneillabu
08-21-2016, 12:40 AM
What are you talking about...."The fact that this project has become hidden from prying eyes speaks for itself, it has nothing to do with privacy but more to do with the status quo,"???? The Clan Donald DNA Project has all of its results available on their website. Further to this, all the persons who wished to be contacted by others are given the YSearch option to allow people to send them email.

Are you upset that various project admins don't bend over backwards to carry out your requests/demands of them?? If this matter is so important to you why haven't you set up an L720 group either on FTDNA or elsewhere?? You are able to email L720 persons/potential persons from your matches and you can post on the project pages (have you ever done this?). If people don't get back to you, that is their personal choice. I know project admins take a lot of flak from members even just for sending out testing options or bulk emails WRT project news.

Here is the link to the Clan McDonald website if anybody doubts what I am saying

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/mcdonald/dna-results

I agree with you about YSearch being the best way to by-pass project groups, only for YSearch there would not be many people in the L720 group of the DF21 project and it also protects the individual's privacy however uploading to YSearch is not widespread and unless FTDNA automatically upload all members then this does not solve this issue. Regarding my demands on Admins to do my bidding below is a copy of an email I sent to Clan Donald in 2011

Hi Mark, my name is Seamus O’Neill, I am currently working on a DNA cluster that is Dalriada in origin and linked to the ancient Celtic Church. While browsing through your results I spotted &KLMOQ C. R. McDonald who seems to fit the cluster I am working on really well. This cluster is DF21+ and also positive for a new subclade of DF21 called L720.There is also another McDonald in my database who matches 24/25 to R. M. McDonald so this could be a cluster. Would it be possible to contact R. M. McDonald to see if he would be interested in testing for DF21 which costs $29 from FTDNA.


Kind Regards
Seamus O’Neill

Merry Christmas and a peaceful New Year

I don't think there is anything demanding about this request, I sent a number of similar emails over a period of 12 months and not a single one was replied to so eventually I contacted the Archivist of the Project who was very polite and gave me the email address of the person to contact which happened to be the same address that I had received no reply to so in the end I gave up.

Regarding setting up an L720 project, if every branch of a large parent subclade such as S5488 was to set up a project then FTDNA would grind to a halt, besides would it not be much easier just to show people the common courtesy of actually replying because after all if a project Admin wants to represent all the members of the project then they should be delighted to receive helpful suggestions for their members regarding testing

Peter MacDonald
08-21-2016, 01:00 AM
oneillabu,

I guess the admins of the Clan Donald DNA Project wrongly assumed that people who are into genetic genealogy have the ability to read and comprehend. Apparently they were mistaken in this assumption. If you take the time to read their page banner you might have seen this:

"Our results are at http://clandonaldusa.org they are not at familytreedna.com"

In case you have trouble using google here is a link:

http://www.clan-donald-usa.org/index.php/dna-history

Peter MacDonald
08-21-2016, 01:19 AM
Here is the link to the Clan McDonald website if anybody doubts what I am saying

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/mcdonald/dna-results

I agree with you about YSearch being the best way to by-pass project groups, only for YSearch there would not be many people in the L720 group of the DF21 project and it also protects the individual's privacy however uploading to YSearch is not widespread and unless FTDNA automatically upload all members then this does not solve this issue. Regarding my demands on Admins to do my bidding below is a copy of an email I sent to Clan Donald in 2011

Hi Mark, my name is Seamus O’Neill, I am currently working on a DNA cluster that is Dalriada in origin and linked to the ancient Celtic Church. While browsing through your results I spotted &KLMOQ C. R. McDonald who seems to fit the cluster I am working on really well. This cluster is DF21+ and also positive for a new subclade of DF21 called L720.There is also another McDonald in my database who matches 24/25 to R. M. McDonald so this could be a cluster. Would it be possible to contact R. M. McDonald to see if he would be interested in testing for DF21 which costs $29 from FTDNA.


Kind Regards
Seamus O’Neill

Merry Christmas and a peaceful New Year

I don't think there is anything demanding about this request, I sent a number of similar emails over a period of 12 months and not a single one was replied to so eventually I contacted the Archivist of the Project who was very polite and gave me the email address of the person to contact which happened to be the same address that I had received no reply to so in the end I gave up.

Regarding setting up an L720 project, if every branch of a large parent subclade such as S5488 was to set up a project then FTDNA would grind to a halt, besides would it not be much easier just to show people the common courtesy of actually replying because after all if a project Admin wants to represent all the members of the project then they should be delighted to receive helpful suggestions for their members regarding testing

How many people do you think email the Project admins in the run of a year? They both have jobs and do this as a hobby as I assume most involved in this field are. Do you think it reasonable to answer and action 100s to 1000s of emails that may not be associated with the project goals?? How much time would this take?

I see that the person you wanted to contact did not join YSearch which indicates that he wished not to be contacted by others. As I mentioned many people lose their minds if the receive a bulk email on project news and updates, could you imagine the response and drama that such a person would display if they received an email to test for an additional SNP which they may or may not test positive for? If I was the admin I wouldn't have answered your email either, however I might have if you were offering to buy it for that person as it would be seen as a gift and not an attempted sale.

This said it seems that you didn't even have the proper email addresses. Read through the Clan Donald DNA website you will find contact information (I don't post email addresses on forums).

oneillabu
08-21-2016, 12:47 PM
How many people do you think email the Project admins in the run of a year? They both have jobs and do this as a hobby as I assume most involved in this field are. Do you think it reasonable to answer and action 100s to 1000s of emails that may not be associated with the project goals?? How much time would this take?

I see that the person you wanted to contact did not join YSearch which indicates that he wished not to be contacted by others. As I mentioned many people lose their minds if the receive a bulk email on project news and updates, could you imagine the response and drama that such a person would display if they received an email to test for an additional SNP which they may or may not test positive for? If I was the admin I wouldn't have answered your email either, however I might have if you were offering to buy it for that person as it would be seen as a gift and not an attempted sale.

This said it seems that you didn't even have the proper email addresses. Read through the Clan Donald DNA website you will find contact information (I don't post email addresses on forums).

I sent the emails to the address furnished by the Donald Project group and they all sent OK, none of them were returned as undeliverable. There is a contradiction in what you say, if Admins are bombarded by emails the most of which they do not read then what is the point in providing an email address and also if a person was offering to sponsor and SNP test (which I have done before) then how could the project Admin know about the offer if they do not read all of the emails. I would have no problem in sponsoring a test for your member listed as &9hhxh even though they have only tested to 25 markers, if successful (The result of which I am 100% confident) I would consider also sponsoring tests for &KLMOQ and &CZAPG at a later date.

What the McDonald Project do is absolutely none of my business however you must agree that you should do the right thing for all of your members and simply let the DNA results do the talking, sure we can argue about cluster origins etc but depriving people of an invaluable insight into their past should not happen, pinning down the SNP type of every group regardless whether they are Celtic, Norse or other should by the priority of every Project including Clan Donald.

Peter MacDonald
08-21-2016, 01:30 PM
I sent the emails to the address furnished by the Donald Project group and they all sent OK, none of them were returned as undeliverable. There is a contradiction in what you say, if Admins are bombarded by emails the most of which they do not read then what is the point in providing an email address and also if a person was offering to sponsor and SNP test (which I have done before) then how could the project Admin know about the offer if they do not read all of the emails. I would have no problem in sponsoring a test for your member listed as &9hhxh even though they have only tested to 25 markers, if successful (The result of which I am 100% confident) I would consider also sponsoring tests for &KLMOQ and &CZAPG at a later date.

What the McDonald Project do is absolutely none of my business however you must agree that you should do the right thing for all of your members and simply let the DNA results do the talking, sure we can argue about cluster origins etc but depriving people of an invaluable insight into their past should not happen, pinning down the SNP type of every group regardless whether they are Celtic, Norse or other should by the priority of every Project including Clan Donald.

Looks like all the more reason to take on some responsibility and start your own L720 group (looks like you have the time, if you stopped complaining about people who don't want to go out of their way to assist you). You can see for yourself the responses of people in your group who have already paid for a DNA when you ask them to pay for any other test.

Peter MacDonald
08-21-2016, 01:32 PM
Here is the link to the Clan McDonald website if anybody doubts what I am saying

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/mcdonald/dna-results

I agree with you about YSearch being the best way to by-pass project groups, only for YSearch there would not be many people in the L720 group of the DF21 project and it also protects the individual's privacy however uploading to YSearch is not widespread and unless FTDNA automatically upload all members then this does not solve this issue. Regarding my demands on Admins to do my bidding below is a copy of an email I sent to Clan Donald in 2011

Hi Mark, my name is Seamus O’Neill, I am currently working on a DNA cluster that is Dalriada in origin and linked to the ancient Celtic Church. While browsing through your results I spotted &KLMOQ C. R. McDonald who seems to fit the cluster I am working on really well. This cluster is DF21+ and also positive for a new subclade of DF21 called L720.There is also another McDonald in my database who matches 24/25 to R. M. McDonald so this could be a cluster. Would it be possible to contact R. M. McDonald to see if he would be interested in testing for DF21 which costs $29 from FTDNA.


Kind Regards
Seamus O’Neill

Merry Christmas and a peaceful New Year

I don't think there is anything demanding about this request, I sent a number of similar emails over a period of 12 months and not a single one was replied to so eventually I contacted the Archivist of the Project who was very polite and gave me the email address of the person to contact which happened to be the same address that I had received no reply to so in the end I gave up.

Regarding setting up an L720 project, if every branch of a large parent subclade such as S5488 was to set up a project then FTDNA would grind to a halt, besides would it not be much easier just to show people the common courtesy of actually replying because after all if a project Admin wants to represent all the members of the project then they should be delighted to receive helpful suggestions for their members regarding testing

oneillabu (I think you missed a post directed to you for your benefit),

I guess the admins of the Clan Donald DNA Project wrongly assumed that people who are into genetic genealogy have the ability to read and comprehend. Apparently they were mistaken in this assumption. If you take the time to read their page banner you might have seen this:

"Our results are at http://clandonaldusa.org they are not at familytreedna.com"

In case you have trouble using google here is a link:

http://www.clan-donald-usa.org/index.php/dna-history

Muireagain
08-21-2016, 04:44 PM
Do you know whether or not the Clan McDougall or MacAlister Chiefs have taken Y DNA tests? If so, what were the results?

I assume you realize that both Clan Donald North and South both descend paternally from John 1st Lord of the Isles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacDonald_of_Dunnyveg

Peter

All that can be proved currently is that branches of the Northern Clan Donald descend from a common ancestor. And there have been that question to the legitimacy of the Northern Clan Donald. The same issue as the claim that Somerled was from Oriel.

Peter MacDonald
08-21-2016, 08:24 PM
All that can be proved currently is that branches of the Northern Clan Donald descend from a common ancestor. And there have been that question to the legitimacy of the Northern Clan Donald. The same issue as the claim that Somerled was from Oriel.

Muiregain,

As far as I know there is no current Chiefs that are are from Clan Donald South. The Antrim line was broken and the Chief of that branch is not a direct paternal descendant from John 1st Lord of the Isles.

From what I have heard a couple of the current claimants for the Glencoe Chiefship are M222, how ever I am unaware of what the other claimants are.

What do you think the Y DNA Signature is? I know one person on this forum who believes it is L720.


Peter

Muireagain
08-23-2016, 07:40 PM
I don't know what Somerled Y DNA Signature is. I would love to know and am hoping that the search for it expands to include other descendants beyond the chiefs of the northern branch of Clan Donald.

Leitir Fura
08-25-2016, 02:46 AM
I don't know if any of the following helps... re Somerled

Y-chromosome DNA had confirmed ancient history relating to Clan Colla and other groups. It also has revealed a few areas where the history is wrong. One of these has to do with MacDonalds who were Lord of the Isles.

The histories state that the Lord of the Isles, MacDonalds, were supposedly descended from Clan Colla, through Somerled, via his great, great, grandson Angus Og. DNA testing has proven, however, that descendants of Lord of the Isles MacDonalds have a R1a DNA Viking heritage rather than R1b Clan Colla DNA. Strangely, testing also has shown that MacDonald descendants of Angus Og's brother Alasdair Og have the R1b ancestry. We know that R1a and R1b split off from each other 25,000 years ago, so these two brothers, who lived in the 13th / 14th century, obviously, therefore, had different fathers. This naturally leaves the quandary as to which son was descended from Somerled, or in other words, was Somerled R1a or R1b?... The jury is saying R1a as Clan MacDonald have accepted I understand.

As of April 2013, there were 25 McDonalds with R1b-DF21 SNP and 84 McDonalds with Viking R1a-L176 SNP. We also know that they were not all descended, necessarily, from Angus Og or Alasdair Og, and given that the majority, we have to assume, would have been of Somerled’s line this would confirm Somerled to have been R1a, as his pedigree now suggests. We also know that R1b Alasdair Og allied himself with Edward I, the king of England, against Robert the Bruce, the titular king of Scotland, in the War of Scottish Independence, contrary to R1a Angus. This data is from a total of 338 R1a and R1b MacDonalds who had tested to 67 markers in the Clann Donald DNA project.

Interestingly the R1b MacDonalds also throw up in four R1b subgroups within the project. These are also designated by colour and the majority can be distinguished by their ‘nil’ value at marker 425. The Viking McDonalds are in one R1a subgroup.

MacDonald Magenta-Black subgroup R1b-P312-L21-DF13-DF21 indicates that signatures parallel to this group can be found among the McMahons of Fermanagh, that was one of the territories of ancient Oriel founded by the Three Collas who allegedly conquered Ulster around 330 AD. This group was one of the tribes from which Somerled's father, Gillebride, sought assistance against the Norse. It is distinguished by the marker DF21 and by a ‘nil’ value (0) at marker DYS425.

A few people who are DF21+, however, are 12 at DYS425, (and these fit nowhere else in the MacDonald project subgroups), and these are the ones we are interested in. These are the MacDonald ‘Gray-Blue' and ‘Violet’ subgroups, (of the MacDonald Magenta-Black subgroup R1b-P312-L21-DF13-DF21), where DYS425 is not equal to zero.

Interestingly, included in this grouping is a G C McQuilken whose distance to a common MacDonald ancestor is shown at 17 generations. His results as compared to Neil MacInnes from Morvern had a genetic distance of only 3. This places a common ancestor of Neil MacInnes and this MacQuilken back only 11 generations (with a 95% probability) - 11 generations equates to approximately 330 years, or circa.1680. It would appear, therefore, that this MacQuilkin may have changed his name from MacInnes sometime after 1680, or that the results are coincidental given that there is another L720/S299+ MacQuilken from Rathlin Island. This of course maybe the same MacQuilken, and if so it looks like he might have migrated to Rathlin Island and changed his name sometime after 1680. One has to wonder whether this was something to do with the Jacobite uprising of the arrival of Presbyterianism. The Glorious Revolution of 1688–89 resulted in the Roman Catholic Stuart king, James II of England and VII of Scotland, fleeing to exile in France under the protection of Louis XIV. In 1690 Presbyterianism was established as the state religion of Scotland.

On 22nd December 1715 the ‘the Pretender’, James II, landed in Scotland at Peterhead, but by the time he arrived at Perth on 9th January 1716, the Jacobite army numbered less than 5,000. In contrast, Argyll's forces had acquired heavy artillery and were advancing quickly. Mar decided to burn a number of villages in between Perth and Stirling, so as to deprive Argyll's army of supplies. On 30th January Mar led his Jacobites out of Perth and on 4th February the Pretender wrote a farewell letter to Scotland, sailing from Montrose the day after. Many Jacobites who were taken prisoner were tried for treason and sentenced to death. However, in July 1717, the Indemnity Act 1717 had the effect of pardoning all those who had taken part in the Rising, apart from the whole of the Clan Gregor, which was specifically excluded from the benefits of the Act. One of those who thus was not pardoned was Rob Roy MacGregor. Was our L720 McQuilkin ancestor one of these, and remembering the past lair of Robert the Bruce as having been the small insignificant Rathlin, that had easy access to northern Ireland, decided on this isle to escape to, changing his name after meeting a nice young Irish lass on arrival?

It is indicated that you have a better chance of matching Clan Colla if you have a value of 15 or more for Marker 385b, 13 or more for 439, 28 or less for 449, and 18 or more for 570. As a L720 McInnes I have none of these and my ancestors are not genetically associated with Clann Colla.

The Clan Colla Null 425 Project stems from the discovery that in haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b4 (L21) there is a single subset carrying a null (0) result at DYS 425 and probably unique, or nearly unique, values at 2 or 3 other loci. What is important is that this haplotype clearly is associated with only one grouping of Irish clanns and surnames, each of which by historical records emanates from The Three Collas, a successful aggressive clan flourishing 300-400 AD. They are looking for evidence that this ‘null’ (0) is associated with other families with different ancestry and as yet have not definitively found it. This gives us an estimate of the time of the mutation to the null (0) mutation a little before 300 AD.

From the other markers, they have found (using 67 Y markers) that the genetic distances among the Colla Group, and Colla Modal DNA, range between 1 and 11, with an average of 6. Of the 232 people, 218 or 94% of the group have a genetic distance of 3 to 9. This data is consistent with their estimate of the timing of the ‘null’ (0) mutation.

One great advantage of this grouping is that it is well defined molecularly, therefore confined, small enough and yet old enough, to make genealogical sense coordinating molecular and historical evidence. By more detailed analysis they will no doubt get a better understanding of specific genealogical relationships among other clusters of the several clanns and many surnames.

In this regard a database has been compiled of over 400 men. These men are predicted to have Clan Colla DNA based key STR markers as 511=9, 425=0, 505=9, 441=12. All who have ‘BIG Y’ test results share unique Y-chromosome mutations such as the SNP Z3000 SNP, and many other unique SNPs downstream of R-L21, DF21, and S971. The identification of Clan Colla DNA, therefore, rests upon the similarity between two sets of 33 names with the key shared markers above.

Peter MacDonald
08-25-2016, 08:04 PM
Hello Leitir Fura

Could you explain what data exists of the descendants of Alasdair Og and what exactly you mean by “..testing also has shown that MacDonald descendants of Angus Og's brother Alasdair Og have the R1b ancestry.”

From your post I get the feeling that you are implying that Somerled was M222+ and perhaps L720 is descended from him. Is this feeling of mine correct?

Leitir Fura
08-25-2016, 11:29 PM
No.... Somerled is the Viking R1a-L176 SNP or Norse strain (along with Angus Og) and this has nothing to do with M222, or DF21/S192 >S7200 >S5488 > L720 /S299

(L720 is R1b but not a subclade of M222, but of DF21. Both M222 are DF21 separate distinct subclasses of R1b - R-P312(S116) >L21(S145) >DF13)

There are other MacDonalds who descend from Angus Og's brother Alasdair Og who are Rb1. He obviously has a different father.... Mum was playing up while Somerled was away. This is Alasdair Og's R1b Rb1 / DF21 strain with one group categorised by a ‘nil’ value (0) at marker DYS425, that relate back to descent from the Irish and the Three Collas. Of these 232 people, 218 or 94% of the group have a genetic distance of 3 to 9. This data is consistent with their estimate of the timing of the ‘null’ (0) mutation.

A few MacDonalds who are DF21+, however, are 12 at DYS425 that fit nowhere else in the MacDonald project subgroups(refer Clan Donald project). At 37 markers XKNTX McQuilken (MacDonald project - Gray-Blue subgroup) shows a GD of only 3 to L720+ 
MacInnes 
Niel c1750 Morvern FTDNA 
197174 
and MacInnes unknown R-M269 
FTDNA 6
6587. You are the only one, I am aware of, that is Rb1 / DF21/S192 >S7200 >S5488 > L720 /S299, which possibly harks back to Morvern and clan McInnes's close association with Somerled and then the Lords of the Isles.

As Sean says we need more L720 candidates to test to 111 markers to home in on TMRCA date of origin, as the GD of 3 above at 37 markers maybe greater than that. What it does say though is that both McInnes's and McQuilken had a reasonably close MCRA.

Hope this all makes sense as I am still learning also..

Peter MacDonald
08-25-2016, 11:36 PM
No.... Somerled is the Viking R1a-L176 SNP or Norse strain (along with Angus Og) and this has nothing to do with M222, or DF21/S192 >S7200 >S5488 > L720 /S299

(L720 is R1b but not a subclade of M222, but of DF21. Both M222 are DF21 separate distinct subclasses of R1b - R-P312(S116) >L21(S145) >DF13)

There are other MacDonalds who descend from Angus Og's brother Alasdair Og who are Rb1. He obviously has a different father.... Mum was playing up while Somerled was away. This is Alasdair Og's R1b Rb1 / DF21 strain with one group categorised by a ‘nil’ value (0) at marker DYS425, that relate back to descent from the Irish and the Three Collas. Of these 232 people, 218 or 94% of the group have a genetic distance of 3 to 9. This data is consistent with their estimate of the timing of the ‘null’ (0) mutation.

A few MacDonalds who are DF21+, however, are 12 at DYS425 that fit nowhere else in the MacDonald project subgroups(refer Clan Donald project).
You are the only one, I am aware of, that is Rb1 / DF21/S192 >S7200 >S5488 > L720 /S299, which possibly harks back to Morvern and clan McInnes's close association with Somerled and then the Lords of the Isles.

What proof exists that the descendants of Alasdair Og are R1B. Is there a Chief that exists today that descends directly from this line? If not what proof do you have to support your belief?

JMcB
08-26-2016, 12:17 AM
<< He obviously has a different father.... Mum was playing up while Somerled was away. >>

In fairness to Somerled's poor wife couldn't the playfulness be attributed to one of her subsequent daughter in laws? ;-)

Assuming, that all of this can be confirmed.

Leitir Fura
08-26-2016, 03:01 AM
Quite correct... it more than likely was.

Leitir Fura
08-26-2016, 03:08 AM
The genetic trail from Clan MacDonald analysis... This is not my research but Clan Donald's, I understand..

As I mentioned as of April 2013, there were 25 McDonalds with R1b-DF21 SNP and 84 McDonalds with Viking R1a-L176 SNP. We also know that they were not all descended, necessarily, from Angus Og or Alasdair Og, and given that the majority, we have to assume, would have been of Somerled’s line this would confirm Somerled to have been R1a, as his pedigree now suggests and as Clan MacDonald now accepts I understand. If the majority of Rb1's weren't descended from Alasdair Og who were they descended from would have to be the question? Possibly they are from any number of tribes that simply later took the name MacDonald, just as you now know you are L720 and other MacDonalds are not.

The R1b MacDonalds throw up in four R1b subgroups within the Clan MacDonald project. These are also designated by colour and the majority can be distinguished by their ‘nil’ value at marker 425, while others are 12 etc...

Does this answer it..?

Dubhthach
08-26-2016, 06:06 AM
How many of the R1b McDonalds were American? The reason I ask is you might actually be looking at "Mac Domhnaill" (McDonnell) of Ireland who were members of Clann Ceallaigh within the Aírgialla (basically Fermanagh/Monaghan border area). We've seen several of these McDonnell/McDonald turn up as DF21+ (might be one or two who are L513+ as well) -- if the tester weren't sure of their ancestry they might just assume they were Scottish McDonald's. (or "Scots-Irish")

angscoire
08-26-2016, 08:18 AM
Trust me , there are many more McDougall R1a's than just the one or two at FTDNA .There is a McDougall colony of the R1a-YP326 'Somerled type' in North East England, that has been established there for 200 years. I'm one of them. McDougall R1a's of the Somerled type in that region alone will likely exceed the entire number of R1b McDougalls in the FTDNA McDougall Group.
Trouble is , McDougalls are rare - it's just not a common surname .The clan has long been diminished .The massacre at Dunaverty, which wiped out hundreds of males in 1647 , didn't help. Anyway, R1b will certainly dominate its numbers , just as it does Clan Donald .

Leitir Fura
08-26-2016, 10:52 PM
I am unsure.. The Clan Donald project would know I suspect.... but some likely are and no doubt distinguished by the marker DF21 and by a ‘nil’ value (0) at marker DYS425.

Peter MacDonald
09-26-2016, 03:32 PM
Leitir Fura, justing wondering if you know why the Clam Macinnis Group on FTDNA has their results locked away from public viewing? If you could let me know either way it would be much appreciated.

Peter

Leitir Fura
09-27-2016, 08:41 AM
Go to the American Clan MacInnes website at www.macinnes.org and click on the DNA Project link and then on 'Up to date Clan MacInnes match data'
This will give you the results... Sorry about the delay in replying

Peter MacDonald
09-27-2016, 11:20 PM
Go to the American Clan MacInnes website at www.macinnes.org and click on the DNA Project link and then on 'Up to date Clan MacInnes match data'
This will give you the results... Sorry about the delay in replying


Thanks for the link.

Peter MacDonald
12-14-2016, 10:17 PM
Leitir Fura,

What proof do you have that Alasdair Og and his descendants were of the L720 Haplogroup? It appears that you are making some assumptions with no data to back it up. Do you have some information that you have not disclosed? With the current information I see it seems you are biasing your point of view with regard to the origins ofL720.

Leitir Fura
01-28-2017, 10:11 PM
I am not biased to anything Peter.. far from it.... but I do get a bit miffed at others assumptions. I throw out suggestions in the hope that others will qualify their findings. Where the Morvern mhic Aonghais lines came from is open to conjecture although we know they had a link to Iona and that L720 has an Irish link - The question is whether this is through a Dalriatan strain or from elsewhere is open to conjecture. Without knowing much about western Scotland Pictish lines including Northern Irish Cruithne I am holding my bet open.... Your thoughts

Leitir Fura
01-28-2017, 10:24 PM
As a stated the info I supplied came from Clan MacDonald project and you need to ask them

angscoire
01-28-2017, 11:22 PM
The MacDougalls are also descendants of Somerled and are not R1a. The results from the northern Clan Donald are not by themselves a definite identification of Somerled's origin...

Myself , my father , uncle , cousin, and 1st cousin once removed, would beg to differ that McDougalls are not R1a.

Romilius
01-29-2017, 08:54 AM
Myself , my father , uncle , cousin, and 1st cousin once removed, would beg to differ that McDougalls are not R1a.

We need ancient DNA from chiefs' remains... For now, arguments are always the same: partisans of I don't know what struggling.

rms2
01-29-2017, 12:54 PM
We need ancient DNA from chiefs' remains... For now, arguments are always the same: partisans of I don't know what struggling.

Yes, I agree. I would like to see some y-dna from famous old leaders. Probably won't happen though.

angscoire
01-29-2017, 02:00 PM
Yes, I agree. I would like to see some y-dna from famous old leaders. Probably won't happen though.

Digging up the tiny St Oran's Church on Iona would be a start - if there are even any remains there to be found . The hunt for 'Rollo's DNA' ended in farce as we know.

Ah, but Romilius I am largely indifferent as to whether Somerled was R1a or R1b (my YDNA is interesting enough to me without the links to Somerled) - but to those who cry 'there are no McDougall R1a, therefore Somerled wasn't R1a either', I simply draw attention to my own family history , that's all.

George Chandler
01-29-2017, 03:10 PM
There is an interesting piece of evidence from the most recent McCauley S1051 testing. He shares two SNP's and one InDel with the MacAlpine/McAlpin results that are not shared with anyone else in the FGC17906 subgroup. Unfortunately even though they are only found in these members the three mutations do not meet Sanger validation standards. The Ardincaple MacCauley's were supposed to have descended from the Gregor line a son of King Alpin..which on it's own isn't much evidence but when you combine the Henry line possibly originating from Nechtain and the McLain line coming from the Lorne tribe (along with a few other pieces) it does seem to fit a bit more. Some SNP's have not been posted including those which don't meet Sanger validation. *Doesn't mean this is 100 percent but the evidence is mounting*

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VaNKMFUePcVc17HR0vycf8k0M-GXMI5h2G_EjOgBIcA/edit#gid=0

George

Romilius
01-30-2017, 08:53 AM
Digging up the tiny St Oran's Church on Iona would be a start - if there are even any remains there to be found . The hunt for 'Rollo's DNA' ended in farce as we know.

Ah, but Romilius I am largely indifferent as to whether Somerled was R1a or R1b (my YDNA is interesting enough to me without the links to Somerled) - but to those who cry 'there are no McDougall R1a, therefore Somerled wasn't R1a either', I simply draw attention to my own family history , that's all.

Ok, I saw the FTDna project about MacDougal/McDougall etc... and I saw only one R1a... I want to understand: with only one R1a, with the ancient documental ancestor in 1790 cca (I don't remember well), how can we be sure that he belongs to the chiefly line? Also about onomastic: we have a lot of names in all the haplogroups lined somewhat to the Somerled line.

Dubhthach
01-30-2017, 10:16 AM
Digging up the tiny St Oran's Church on Iona would be a start - if there are even any remains there to be found . The hunt for 'Rollo's DNA' ended in farce as we know.

Ah, but Romilius I am largely indifferent as to whether Somerled was R1a or R1b (my YDNA is interesting enough to me without the links to Somerled) - but to those who cry 'there are no McDougall R1a, therefore Somerled wasn't R1a either', I simply draw attention to my own family history , that's all.

Well if Iona has acidic soil like large parts of Scotland ⁊ Ireland than there probably won't be much in way of remains to sequence.

angscoire
01-30-2017, 04:29 PM
Ok, I saw the FTDna project about MacDougal/McDougall etc... and I saw only one R1a... I want to understand: with only one R1a, with the ancient documental ancestor in 1790 cca (I don't remember well), how can we be sure that he belongs to the chiefly line? Also about onomastic: we have a lot of names in all the haplogroups lined somewhat to the Somerled line.

In 2006 Sykes found more . Regardless , the only things I know for sure is that I belong to the same lineage as the current Clan Donald Chiefs , splitting off that line around 750ybp (according to YFull) and before the birth of Lord John circa 1310 (according to Clan Donald ) , and that I am a McDougall and there are many of us in North East England . That isn't cast iron evidence of my descent from Somerled via Dougall . Genetics , name , tradition of descent, etc... it is all highly suggestive . No more no less.

McDougall numbers are low . It's a small clan . It fails to make an appearance in the top 100 surnames in Scotland . Eleven other names with the 'Mac' prefix do. Don't underestimate the impact the 1647 massacre at Dunaverty had on McDougall numbers.

The number of McDougall participants in the FTDNA surname project has largely been static for years , hovering around the 30 mark. Compare that figure to the hundreds of McDonalds who have tested , 23% of whom are R1a . All things considered it is little wonder why FTDNA has picked up so few R1a McDougalls .

Actually , of those individuals of alleged descent from Somerled, I see little variety in names . It is mainly McDonalds and its variants , plus other Highland names (my own ,McAllister , McKane, for instance), that have traditional descent from Somerled .

angscoire
01-30-2017, 04:30 PM
Ok, I saw the FTDna project about MacDougal/McDougall etc... and I saw only one R1a... I want to understand: with only one R1a, with the ancient documental ancestor in 1790 cca (I don't remember well), how can we be sure that he belongs to the chiefly line? Also about onomastic: we have a lot of names in all the haplogroups lined somewhat to the Somerled line.

Double post

Peter MacDonald
02-02-2017, 11:10 PM
I am not biased to anything Peter.. far from it.... but I do get a bit miffed at others assumptions. I throw out suggestions in the hope that others will qualify their findings. Where the Morvern mhic Aonghais lines came from is open to conjecture although we know they had a link to Iona and that L720 has an Irish link - The question is whether this is through a Dalriatan strain or from elsewhere is open to conjecture. Without knowing much about western Scotland Pictish lines including Northern Irish Cruithne I am holding my bet open.... Your thoughts

Leitir,

You stated a couple of posts ago that "There are other MacDonalds who descend from Angus Og's brother Alasdair Og who are Rb1." I do not see any substantiation that backs this statement up, are there person with who have concrete paper trails to Alasdair Og? Are these persons of the L720 branch of R1B?

The only reference in the Clan Donald DNA Project R1B results to Angus Og (no mention of Alasdair Og which I can see there) is:

"Haplogroup R1b-P312-DF27-Z195-Z272-DF17/CTS7768 ··· Pale blue subgroup

This group contains several persons known to descend from the line of the Glencoe chiefs. This line traditionally descends from Somerled. It originated at Iain Og, son of Angus Og and brother of John first Lord of the Isles. It appears that the failure of the Somerled line occurred at or before the 7th Chief circa 1550. All of the lines match with that hypothesis. See Ryan Littrell, Reunion A Search for Ancestors p. 176. It appears clear that the surviving lines are of pictish origin. The oral history of the Mac EnRuigh indicates descent from Nechtan, a pictish king of the 8th Century. This sample differs materially from the Dalriadic samples since it diverges at P312 and represents time to a common ancestor of more than 4200 years."

I am not sure how they qualify the statement "It appears clear that the surviving lines are of pictish origin." I guess I will have to read page 176 of the book mentioned.

What information/data do you have that confirms your statement "Where the Morvern mhic Aonghais lines came from is open to conjecture although we know they had a link to Iona and that L720 has an Irish link"?

My thoughts are that with the current information available, it is not possible to confirm that an SNP is either Pictish, Cruithin/Cruithne, Dal Riatian, etc. I do believe that people have to remember that cultures whether Pictish, Irish, Cruithin more likely than not contain multiple paternal lines within them.

While it is interesting to hear everyone's theories on origins and the various connections of SNPs, I try to stay focused on trying to hold to the genealogical principle of moving from the known to unknown. I am focused in determining connections between myself and matches who share the most recent SNPs in my paternal line. I do track and keep up to date (to a degree) on more distant paternal connections out of interest, but in reality I believe it would be highly improbable to determine a linage back beyond a certain point. That point for me at this point in time is 1755.

oneillabu
02-13-2017, 07:56 PM
One of the most interesting things is that that list was for the most part compiled from the Book of Leinster and Yellow Book of Lecan, both of which use the Book of O'Maolchonaire as source material, closely related to the Leabhar na hUidre, and though the O'Maolchonaires professed an Ui Neill pedigree, they maintained connections that obviously relate to an earlier period, like that with the O'Roddys of Leitrim.



This was posted by me on

04-07-2015, 08:26 PM

this list can now be expanded using the up to date data from tested DF21 people




Here are the actual pedigrees of the Ui Maine taken from the Book of Lecan
broken down into sections, note that the name Trainor is not included in any
pedigree. I have included the kit number or YSearch ID of any DF21 matches
to each branch. If you compare this with theDF23/Z2961 matches you will see
that DF21 has a far stronger claim to be Ui Maine, especially since this is
the main DF21 hotspot. The only DF23 names from these pedigrees are one
Madden and a cluster of Kelly's who share a fairly recent common ancestor
and yet the M222 Niall propaganda has labelled this as Ui Maine even though
there is no supporting evidence.

Here are the various Ui Maine Branches

CLANN CERNAIGH

O'Finain Finan, Fanning One match 173456 Feehan One Match 98203 (clan colla)
Feeney

O'Laidhin Lyons, Lynne One example B8179

O'Lachtnain Loughnan Laughlin Four matches 103901, 158243, 311927, 149586
443955

Conbhuidhe Conway, Conroy, Conry two matches 218112, 199254, possible third
Conlon 324600

O'Ceinneididh Kennedy Four matches 169021, N30683, N21843, 81497

O'Dorchaidhi Darcy, Dorsey One Match 23504

Sidhachain Sheehan, One Match 205682

Cuilein, Cullen and Collins, One Match 210550 Cullen

THE CLANN AEDHAGAIN

Mac Egans Three matches 67599, 3676, 51686

THE CLANN FLAITHEAMHAIL MIC DLUTHAIGH.

O'Domnallains, Donnelan, Donald, Daniels Six matches, 44725, 286983, 183628,
177135, 278841, 184048

O'Maeilalaidfi's, Lally, Mulally, One Match, 217777

THE CINEL FATHAIDH

O'Fathaidh Faherty, Fahy, Flaherty,

PEDIGREE OF HY-CORMAIC OF MAENMAGH

Niall, son of Cerbhall, numerous DF21 Carrolls

SIL ANMCHADA

O'Maddens, One Match N61052

Ua Churrain Curran, No Curran match, one possible Curry mistranslation Kit
number 116797

Ua Cinaeith, Kenny, One Match V8A7U

Muinter Chobhthaigh, Coffey, One Match, 95987

Ua Brenainn Brennan, One Mulvihill Match, 163988

Muintir Chicharain, Keighry, Carey, One Carey Match 84279

Muintir Rodaighi, Ruddy, Roddy, Reidy Two Matches, 204692, 63208

Muinter Conghalaigh, Conely, Two Matches 263699, 111808

Ua Dubhlaigh, Dooley, Six Matches, 24765, 115408, 214229, 3224, 168720, 1405

Muinter Lorcain, Larkin, Six matches, L-0088, L-0078, L-0083, L-0004,
L-0065, L-0087

Ua Maenaigh, Mooney, Three matches LSC 146064, N92313, 76448,

THE MUINNTER CHOBHTHAIGH,

Muinter Madadhain. Madden, One Match N61052

Muinter Chinaith, Kenny, One Match V8A7U

Muinter Tresaigh, Tracey Seven matches, 289639, 335793, 164932, 129222,
185725, 45013, 271750

Ua Churrain Curran, No Curran match, one possible Curry mistranslation Kit
number 116797

Ua Aedha, Hughes, Hugh. McHugh Four matches, 7996 (Colla), 182014, MESPS,
EBJTD

Muinter Ruairc, O'Rourke, Six Matches, N105692, H1730, 144806, 126218,
67651, 133193

Muinter Dubhlainn, now Dowling, Doolin, Five Matches, 202200, N127012,
148622, N57631, 198281

Muinter Arrachtain, Harrington, One Match, 119300 (Colla)

Muinter Conrui, Conry, King, Five Matches, 157485, 271391, 44513, 218112,
170847

Domhnall Mor, son of Tadhg Taillte, O'Kelly, Very large DF21 cluster

UI BRIUN AI

O'Connor, Four Matches, 193578, 178768, 155422, MacDermott, Two Matches,
171696, N71588

UI BRIUN BREFFNEY

O'Rourke, Six Matches, 67651, 133193, N105692, H1730, 144806, 126218,
O'Reilly, Two matches 110716 (314.2), 91903

UA DUBHCHONNA

Downey Two DF5 Downing matches (161348) (187591)

5 Doolin's DF5 202200, N127012, 148622, N57631, 198281

Ua Mongain Mongan One example S5488 (N17039)

O'Ruaidhre, Rogers one S5488 Rogers (115854)

O'Cormaic Cormack or McCormack Two Clan Colla DF21 matches 253386 and 278906

Leitir Fura
02-14-2017, 08:31 AM
What information/data do you have that confirms your statement "Where the Morvern mhic Aonghais lines came from is open to conjecture although we know they had a link to Iona and that L720 has an Irish link"?

The traditional account was that the Morvern MacInnes clan gained their later name through an association prior to Somerled with Dalriata, that supposedly harks back to Islay. So what do we

know from history...

That MacInnes chiefs were buried on Iona and were closely associated with the culdees their, and supposedly originally Columba
That MacInnes's helped Somerled expel the Norse from the western seaboard. He lived in the caves in Morvern supposedly with MacInnes's living there
The MacInnes chief was a close confidant of the 1st Lord of the Isles
That the MacInnes's were dispersed with 5 families migrating to Skye in circa 1510. and to Appin / Glencoe and other parts of Argyle
There is no accurate verifiable evidential link of those of the name of mhic Aonghais (MacInnes) back to Islay. As the name more than likely came into vogue in the 10th century it could just as well been attributed a the Pict king Oenghus 1 as to any Dalriata origin account.

From DNA..
That several ex Morvern MacInnes's carry the Rb1 - L720 marker
That the oldest MCRA for L720 appear to be that of an O'Neill from Ireland - I believe it has been estimated at circa 220BC. Until more test to 111 markers no accurate conclusions can be drawn
The Dalriata migration myth does not occur until 500 AD

I am open to any outcome and we need more L720 people to test to 111 markers (including me), and all other clan L720 candidates.

Your thoughts appreciated

MacUalraig
02-14-2017, 10:14 AM
A good approach would be to cite some actual records - do these men show up in the POMS database for example? You are stretching the concept of Scottish surnames a lot further back than anyone I would regard as having expertise in the subject.

Peter MacDonald
02-14-2017, 11:13 AM
What information/data do you have that confirms your statement "Where the Morvern mhic Aonghais lines came from is open to conjecture although we know they had a link to Iona and that L720 has an Irish link"?

The traditional account was that the Morvern MacInnes clan gained their later name through an association prior to Somerled with Dalriata, that supposedly harks back to Islay. So what do we

know from history...

That MacInnes chiefs were buried on Iona and were closely associated with the culdees their, and supposedly originally Columba
That MacInnes's helped Somerled expel the Norse from the western seaboard. He lived in the caves in Morvern supposedly with MacInnes's living there
The MacInnes chief was a close confidant of the 1st Lord of the Isles
That the MacInnes's were dispersed with 5 families migrating to Skye in circa 1510. and to Appin / Glencoe and other parts of Argyle
There is no accurate verifiable evidential link of those of the name of mhic Aonghais (MacInnes) back to Islay. As the name more than likely came into vogue in the 10th century it could just as well been attributed a the Pict king Oenghus 1 as to any Dalriata origin account.

From DNA..
That several ex Morvern MacInnes's carry the Rb1 - L720 marker
That the oldest MCRA for L720 appear to be that of an O'Neill from Ireland - I believe it has been estimated at circa 220BC. Until more test to 111 markers no accurate conclusions can be drawn
The Dalriata migration myth does not occur until 500 AD

I am open to any outcome and we need more L720 people to test to 111 markers (including me), and all other clan L720 candidates.

Your thoughts appreciated

My thoughts on this is that you have no evidence, proof or Y-DNA data that backup your statements (which are not joined together in a coherent manner). It appears to me (but I could be mistaken) that you are setting out with a preconceived notion of the origin of L720 and are extremely stretching the Y-DNA data and history in an attempt to prove your idea (which you have been unable to do up to this point).

Peter MacDonald
02-14-2017, 11:21 AM
Leitir,

You stated a couple of posts ago that "There are other MacDonalds who descend from Angus Og's brother Alasdair Og who are Rb1." I do not see any substantiation that backs this statement up, are there person with who have concrete paper trails to Alasdair Og? Are these persons of the L720 branch of R1B?

The only reference in the Clan Donald DNA Project R1B results to Angus Og (no mention of Alasdair Og which I can see there) is:

"Haplogroup R1b-P312-DF27-Z195-Z272-DF17/CTS7768 ··· Pale blue subgroup

This group contains several persons known to descend from the line of the Glencoe chiefs. This line traditionally descends from Somerled. It originated at Iain Og, son of Angus Og and brother of John first Lord of the Isles. It appears that the failure of the Somerled line occurred at or before the 7th Chief circa 1550. All of the lines match with that hypothesis. See Ryan Littrell, Reunion A Search for Ancestors p. 176. It appears clear that the surviving lines are of pictish origin. The oral history of the Mac EnRuigh indicates descent from Nechtan, a pictish king of the 8th Century. This sample differs materially from the Dalriadic samples since it diverges at P312 and represents time to a common ancestor of more than 4200 years."

I was hoping you could direct me to were on the Clan Donald DNA Project I could find the reference that you pulled our statement of "There are other MacDonalds who descend from Angus Og's brother Alasdair Og who are Rb1.". Please advise.

Thanks.

Peter MacDonald
02-14-2017, 11:27 AM
oneillabu (I think you missed a post directed to you for your benefit),

I guess the admins of the Clan Donald DNA Project wrongly assumed that people who are into genetic genealogy have the ability to read and comprehend. Apparently they were mistaken in this assumption. If you take the time to read their page banner you might have seen this:

"Our results are at http://clandonaldusa.org they are not at familytreedna.com"

In case you have trouble using google here is a link:

http://www.clan-donald-usa.org/index.php/dna-history


Oneillabu,

Just wondering if you have been able to find your way onto the Clan Donald DNA Project webpage yet? If you are still having issues, please let me know and I will attempt to assist you further.

If you have been able to view the Clan Donald DNA Project, I assume the data provided from the test results have not supported any of your theory as you have not commented on this topic for some time.

Romilius
02-14-2017, 05:18 PM
Leitir,

You stated a couple of posts ago that "There are other MacDonalds who descend from Angus Og's brother Alasdair Og who are Rb1." I do not see any substantiation that backs this statement up, are there person with who have concrete paper trails to Alasdair Og? Are these persons of the L720 branch of R1B?

The only reference in the Clan Donald DNA Project R1B results to Angus Og (no mention of Alasdair Og which I can see there) is:

"Haplogroup R1b-P312-DF27-Z195-Z272-DF17/CTS7768 ··· Pale blue subgroup

This group contains several persons known to descend from the line of the Glencoe chiefs. This line traditionally descends from Somerled. It originated at Iain Og, son of Angus Og and brother of John first Lord of the Isles. It appears that the failure of the Somerled line occurred at or before the 7th Chief circa 1550. All of the lines match with that hypothesis. See Ryan Littrell, Reunion A Search for Ancestors p. 176. It appears clear that the surviving lines are of pictish origin. The oral history of the Mac EnRuigh indicates descent from Nechtan, a pictish king of the 8th Century. This sample differs materially from the Dalriadic samples since it diverges at P312 and represents time to a common ancestor of more than 4200 years."

I was hoping you could direct me to were on the Clan Donald DNA Project I could find the reference that you pulled our statement of "There are other MacDonalds who descend from Angus Og's brother Alasdair Og who are Rb1.". Please advise.

Thanks.

I'm sorry... but how's it possible to have a line from Somerled that is R1a and another one from Somerled that is R1b?

oneillabu
02-14-2017, 07:00 PM
Oneillabu,



If you have been able to view the Clan Donald DNA Project, I assume the data provided from the test results have not supported any of your theory as you have not commented on this topic for some time.

I have better things to do with my time than trade insults with you, I actually work for a living like I have done for over 40 years, regarding the DNA I am playing the waiting game and letting the results trickle in which will I am sure eventually give a definite answer one way or another, the only thing thing we can be certain of is that there is no Norse Lord of the Isles because such a pedigree does not exist so you can fantasise all you like but there is no evidence to support your claim because speculation about NPE's is only a theory not historical research

Leitir Fura
02-14-2017, 07:12 PM
I beg your pardon... Prove what.... as I say ....I am open to any outcome and we need more L720 people to test to 111 markers (including me), and all other clan L720 candidates. Why is it that people who use this site seem to have trouble reading... What above do you consider wrong or are u just on a witch hunt?

Leitir Fura
02-14-2017, 07:27 PM
Any comments on the following article seeing there seems to be interest in it...???

A HISTORIC Celtic hero credited with driving the Vikings out of western Scotland was actually descended from a Norseman, according to research by a leading DNA expert.

According to traditional genealogies, Somerled, who is said to have died in 1164 after ousting the Vikings from Argyll, Kintyre and the Western Isles, was descended from an ancient royal line going back to when the Scots were living in Ireland.

But Bryan Sykes, an Oxford University professor of human genetics who set up a company called Oxford Ancestors to research people’s DNA past, has discovered that Somerled’s Y-chromosome - which is inherited through the male line - is of Norse origin.

Prof Sykes’ studies of three Scottish clans have also led to the conclusion that some 500,000 people alive today are descended from Somerled - a number only bettered by Genghis Khan, who, among historical figures studied to date, has an estimated 16 million living descendants.

The MacDonald, MacDougall and MacAllister clans all claim descent from Somerled and Prof Sykes found that between 25 and 45 per cent of them shared the same Y-chromosome, of a kind normally found in Norway but rare in Scotland and Ireland.

By analysing the rate of mutation in DNA samples from clan members, Prof Sykes was able to show that the Y-chromosome came from a common ancestor who lived roughly 1,000 years ago.
He then tested five chiefs from the clans and discovered they all shared the same chromosome, which convinced him that the common ancestor must be Somerled, Lord of the Isles, in keeping with clan histories.

However, the analysis threw into doubt Somerled’s own origins. Prof Sykes told The Scotsman: "In the traditional genealogy, Somerled is a great Celtic hero who drives the Norse from Scotland, but his Y- chromosome is definitely Norse. The genealogies trace him back to a long line of Irish kings. But that’s not what the Y-chromosome says.

"He is certainly of Norse Viking paternal origin."
It is open to question whether Somerled, who made driving the Vikings from western Scotland his "cause clbre", would have known the truth.

But Prof Sykes said: "I think it is something you would want to keep quiet."
The fact that clan chiefs still share the same basic Y-chromosome after some 87 generations shows that high-status women in the MacDonald, MacDougall and MacAllister clans were extremely faithful.

However, the large number of people alive today with the same Y-chromosome means the men in the family did not share this virtue to the same extent.
Maggie Macdonald, archivist of the Museum of the Isles on Skye, said Somerled was traditionally viewed as a Celtic hero.

But she added: "Maybe at that time it was more important who it was said you were descended from than who you were actually descended from.

"People may well have known his great-great-grandfather was a Viking.

"But it could have been that his great-great-grandmother had relations with someone who wasn’t her husband - it could be Somerled wouldn’t have known and thought he was this great Celtic hero."


Thought for the day .... Have u ever considered it may have been Somerled's wife that did the playing around making Alasdair Og not of Somerled's line and Rb1

Romilius
02-14-2017, 08:38 PM
Thought for the day .... Have u ever considered it may have been Somerled's wife that did the playing around making Alasdair Og not of Somerled's line and Rb1

I think that it is a more educated hypothesis to think that the high-status women of MacDonald clan were raped and violented by viking raiders, so the original R1b line from Ireland was changed with a R1a line from Norway. This respects the origin from Irish kings and the violent possibility (not rare in that period) to have the introgression of R1a in the chiefly line.

Peter MacDonald
02-14-2017, 10:49 PM
I have better things to do with my time than trade insults with you, I actually work for a living like I have done for over 40 years, regarding the DNA I am playing the waiting game and letting the results trickle in which will I am sure eventually give a definite answer one way or another, the only thing thing we can be certain of is that there is no Norse Lord of the Isles because such a pedigree does not exist so you can fantasise all you like but there is no evidence to support your claim because speculation about NPE's is only a theory not historical research

oneillabu, I assume than that the data on the Clan Donald DNA Project does not support your claims. Since I am not R1A nor do I claim paternal ancestry from Somerled, I really don't understand what point you are trying to make aside from the fact you have no facts/Y-DNA data to support your theories on the origins of L720. Oh....congratulations on "working for a living for over 40 years" :)

Peter MacDonald
02-14-2017, 11:04 PM
I think that it is a more educated hypothesis to think that the high-status women of MacDonald clan were raped and violented by viking raiders, so the original R1b line from Ireland was changed with a R1a line from Norway. This respects the origin from Irish kings and the violent possibility (not rare in that period) to have the introgression of R1a in the chiefly line.

Romilius, there is another theory which was discussed a couple of pages back on this thread which was post by Dubhthach (here it is):

"The other way to look at is is that Somerled was given a genealogy for political reasons. By linking him into the Aírghialla they then can use the clearly suspect Aírghialla genealogy to link to the Dál Cuinn.

ergo there is no break in the lineage, simply because the lineage pre-Somerled is a fabrication for political purposes.

Alex Woolf has decent article up on academia.edu

https://www.academia.edu/313174/The_...ry_of_Somerled "

Leitir Fura
02-14-2017, 11:43 PM
Romilius and Peter - Your comments appreciated on the following.... (I thought it was proven that Somerled was R1a Norse) and here it is again... which may answer a few questions for you and others...


Somhairle mac Gillebride, Ri Innse Gall - Also Known As: ‘Somerled’, ‘Sumarliði’, ‘Somhairle’, ‘Sorley’, ‘Somerled’, ‘Somerled Of The Isles’, ‘Local King (Regulus) Of Argyll’, ‘Sumarlioi’, ‘Solaimh’, ‘Macmeargaigh’

Y-DNA - R1a1 - Norse

Birthdate: between circa 1113 and circa 1117

Birthplace: Morvern, Argyll (Argyleshire), Scotland

Death: Died January 1, 1164 in Renfrew, Scotland

Place of Burial: Abbey of Saddell, Kintyre, Argule, Scotland

Immediate Family:
Son of Giolla Brighid mac Gille Adomnain and NN Sigurdsdattir

Husband of :
N.N. ;
(unknown) mac Godfrey;
Elfrica (Rachel);
N.N.;
Ragnhildis Olavesdottir
and 2 others

Father of :
Daughter of Somerled;
Stepfather of Somhairle Og mac Somairle - King of Kintyre and of the Hebrides;
Stepfather of Gilliecolum mac Somairle;
Ragnall mac Somhairle - Lord of the Isles - MacDonald line (but not all MacDonalds as name could have simply been taken if supporting clan in early times);
Dougal mac Somerled - King of the Isles
and 6 others

Brother of :
NN MacGillebride Doittir
Angus Macgillebride - indicated on this tree as the founder of Clan MacInnes (Question: This would have to have been a half brother from his mother’s side with a NN, or a brother-in-law, as Clan MacInnes is predominently Rb1 - and with Morvern MacInnes DNA also testing positive for L720 marker.)
Half brother of NN Gillebridedatter, of the Isles

Titles:
Lord of the Isles, 1st Lord of the Isles; Eighth Thane / Regulus / Lord of Argyll, Lord of Cantyre, Lord of the Hebrides; Norse King of the Sudreys., Lord of Isles, Lord i Argyll, Skottland 1154-1164, kung på Isle of Man 1158-1164

Then for stepson....

Somhairle Og mac Somairle, King of Kintyre and of the Hebrides
Son of Somerled, King of the Hebrides and N.N. (This has to be a stepson of his wife (NN) and to a different father as this line is Rb1 - Maybe Somerled was aware or unaware of this, along also with Gilliecolum mac Somairle, but they were considered his sons - not unusual in early Scots upbringing or today for that matter.)

Birthdate: 1164
Death: (Date and location unknown)

Immediate Family:
Brother of :
Gilliecolum mac Somairle (also Rb1)

Half brother of:
Daughter of Somerled;
Ragnall mac Somhairle, Lord of the Isles (projenator of Clan Donald);
Dougal mac Somerled, King of the Isles;
Angus of Bute & Arran;
Bethoc, Prioress of Iona
and 4 others

Peter MacDonald
02-15-2017, 12:01 AM
Romilius and Peter - Your comments appreciated on the following.... (I thought it was proven that Somerled was R1a Norse) and here it is again... which may answer a few questions for you and others...


Somhairle mac Gillebride, Ri Innse Gall - Also Known As: ‘Somerled’, ‘Sumarliði’, ‘Somhairle’, ‘Sorley’, ‘Somerled’, ‘Somerled Of The Isles’, ‘Local King (Regulus) Of Argyll’, ‘Sumarlioi’, ‘Solaimh’, ‘Macmeargaigh’

Y-DNA - R1a1 - Norse

Birthdate: between circa 1113 and circa 1117

Birthplace: Morvern, Argyll (Argyleshire), Scotland

Death: Died January 1, 1164 in Renfrew, Scotland

Place of Burial: Abbey of Saddell, Kintyre, Argule, Scotland

Immediate Family:
Son of Giolla Brighid mac Gille Adomnain and NN Sigurdsdattir

Husband of :
N.N. ;
(unknown) mac Godfrey;
Elfrica (Rachel);
N.N.;
Ragnhildis Olavesdottir
and 2 others

Father of :
Daughter of Somerled;
Stepfather of Somhairle Og mac Somairle - King of Kintyre and of the Hebrides;
Stepfather of Gilliecolum mac Somairle;
Ragnall mac Somhairle - Lord of the Isles - MacDonald line (but not all MacDonalds as name could have simply been taken if supporting clan in early times);
Dougal mac Somerled - King of the Isles
and 6 others

Brother of :
NN MacGillebride Doittir
Angus Macgillebride - indicated on this tree as the founder of Clan MacInnes (Question: This would have to have been a half brother from his mother’s side with a NN, or a brother-in-law, as Clan MacInnes is predominently Rb1 - and with Morvern MacInnes DNA also testing positive for L720 marker.)
Half brother of NN Gillebridedatter, of the Isles

Titles:
Lord of the Isles, 1st Lord of the Isles; Eighth Thane / Regulus / Lord of Argyll, Lord of Cantyre, Lord of the Hebrides; Norse King of the Sudreys., Lord of Isles, Lord i Argyll, Skottland 1154-1164, kung på Isle of Man 1158-1164

Then for stepson....

Somhairle Og mac Somairle, King of Kintyre and of the Hebrides
Son of Somerled, King of the Hebrides and N.N. (This has to be a stepson of his wife (NN) and to a different father as this line is Rb1 - Maybe Somerled was aware or unaware of this, along also with Gilliecolum mac Somairle, but they were considered his sons - not unusual in early Scots upbringing or today for that matter.)

Birthdate: 1164
Death: (Date and location unknown)

Immediate Family:
Brother of :
Gilliecolum mac Somairle (also Rb1)

Half brother of:
Daughter of Somerled;
Ragnall mac Somhairle, Lord of the Isles (projenator of Clan Donald);
Dougal mac Somerled, King of the Isles;
Angus of Bute & Arran;
Bethoc, Prioress of Iona
and 4 others

Leitir, I would like to read in full and would appreciate if could you provide a book reference or hyperlink (if from an online source) for this post. Thanks.

Leitir Fura
02-15-2017, 12:23 AM
This was from an online genealogy which is the closest I have seen to my findings, and where it had the males above all listed as sons of Somerled .. not stepsons. But we know that could not have been the case as Somerled is proven R1a1 and MacInnes is Rb1 as are you, and the descendants of Somhairle Og mac Somairle and Gilliecolum mac Somairle as I understood it but not L720....

You are right about Somerled's pedigree being used by Irish monks to prop up their own genealogies for political reasons with him as a great Celtic warrior (although it would not be unnatural to see him in those terms).... along with using a Dalriada creation myth (Not to say that Dalriada as a kingdom did not exist as it certainly did and with both Irish Scots and what were termed Picts.)

On another subject what do you have as the origin age of L720... I have circa 900BC and TMRCA of 220BC (Irish O'Neill). Am I up the creek here ...?

Leitir Fura
02-15-2017, 01:01 AM
This was from an online genealogy which is the closest I have seen to my findings, and where it had the males above all listed as sons of Somerled .. not stepsons. But we know that could not have been the case as Somerled is proven R1a1 and MacInnes is Rb1 as are you, and the descendants of Somhairle Og mac Somairle and Gilliecolum mac Somairle as I understood it but not L720....

You are right about Somerled's pedigree being used by Irish monks to prop up their own genealogies for political reasons with him as a great Celtic warrior (although it would not be unnatural to see him in those terms).... along with using a Dalriada creation myth (Not to say that Dalriada as a kingdom did not exist as it certainly did and with both Irish Scots and what were termed Picts.)

On another subject what do you have as the origin age of L720... I have circa 900BC and TMRCA of 220BC (Irish O'Neill). Am I up the creek here ...?

angscoire
02-15-2017, 01:44 PM
[QUOTE=Leitir Fura;214513]Romilius and Peter - Your comments appreciated on the following.... (I thought it was proven that Somerled was R1a Norse) and here it is again... which may answer a few questions for you and others...


Somhairle mac Gillebride, Ri Innse Gall - Also Known As: ‘Somerled’, ‘Sumarliði’, ‘Somhairle’, ‘Sorley’, ‘Somerled’, ‘Somerled Of The Isles’, ‘Local King (Regulus) Of Argyll’, ‘Sumarlioi’, ‘Solaimh’, ‘Macmeargaigh’

Y-DNA - R1a1 - Norse

Birthdate: between circa 1113 and circa 1117

Birthplace: Morvern, Argyll (Argyleshire), Scotland

Death: Died January 1, 1164 in Renfrew, Scotland

Place of Burial: Abbey of Saddell, Kintyre, Argule, Scotland

Immediate Family:
Son of Giolla Brighid mac Gille Adomnain and NN Sigurdsdattir

Husband of :
N.N. ;
(unknown) mac Godfrey;
Elfrica (Rachel);
N.N.;
Ragnhildis Olavesdottir
and 2 others

Father of :
Daughter of Somerled;
Stepfather of Somhairle Og mac Somairle - King of Kintyre and of the Hebrides;
Stepfather of Gilliecolum mac Somairle;
Ragnall mac Somhairle - Lord of the Isles - MacDonald line (but not all MacDonalds as name could have simply been taken if supporting clan in early times);
Dougal mac Somerled - King of the Isles
and 6 others

Brother of :
NN MacGillebride Doittir
Angus Macgillebride - indicated on this tree as the founder of Clan MacInnes (Question: This would have to have been a half brother from his mother’s side with a NN, or a brother-in-law, as Clan MacInnes is predominently Rb1 - and with Morvern MacInnes DNA also testing positive for L720 marker.)
Half brother of NN Gillebridedatter, of the Isles

Titles:
Lord of the Isles, 1st Lord of the Isles; Eighth Thane / Regulus / Lord of Argyll, Lord of Cantyre, Lord of the Hebrides; Norse King of the Sudreys., Lord of Isles, Lord i Argyll, Skottland 1154-1164, kung på Isle of Man 1158-1164

Then for stepson....

Somhairle Og mac Somairle, King of Kintyre and of the Hebrides
Son of Somerled, King of the Hebrides and N.N. (This has to be a stepson of his wife (NN) and to a different father as this line is Rb1 - Maybe Somerled was aware or unaware of this, along also with Gilliecolum mac Somairle, but they were considered his sons - not unusual in early Scots upbringing or today for that matter.)

Birthdate: 1164
Death: (Date and location unknown)

Immediate Family:
Brother of :
Gilliecolum mac Somairle (also Rb1)

Half brother of:
Daughter of Somerled;
Ragnall mac Somhairle, Lord of the Isles (projenator of Clan Donald);
Dougal mac Somerled, King of the Isles;
Angus of Bute & Arran;
Bethoc, Prioress of Iona
and 4 others[/QUOTE



Somerleds mother is unknown - we can only speculate on her identity as there is no record at all. Iona is the more likely place of burial for Somerled .

ADW_1981
02-15-2017, 03:45 PM
My money would be on the DF17+ lineage rather than a R1a lineage, simply because it doesn't make sense that a guy who fought off the vikings would have been derived from a viking lineage around the same time. Otherwise, we really need to rethink the origin of R1a in Britain and Ireland. Maybe my logic is a tad weak, but there is plenty of time for adoptions and NPE over a 1000 year span.

ADW_1981
02-15-2017, 04:27 PM
Any comments on the following article seeing there seems to be interest in it...???

A HISTORIC Celtic hero credited with driving the Vikings out of western Scotland was actually descended from a Norseman, according to research by a leading DNA expert.

According to traditional genealogies, Somerled, who is said to have died in 1164 after ousting the Vikings from Argyll, Kintyre and the Western Isles, was descended from an ancient royal line going back to when the Scots were living in Ireland.

But Bryan Sykes, an Oxford University professor of human genetics who set up a company called Oxford Ancestors to research people’s DNA past, has discovered that Somerled’s Y-chromosome - which is inherited through the male line - is of Norse origin.

Prof Sykes’ studies of three Scottish clans have also led to the conclusion that some 500,000 people alive today are descended from Somerled - a number only bettered by Genghis Khan, who, among historical figures studied to date, has an estimated 16 million living descendants.

The MacDonald, MacDougall and MacAllister clans all claim descent from Somerled and Prof Sykes found that between 25 and 45 per cent of them shared the same Y-chromosome, of a kind normally found in Norway but rare in Scotland and Ireland.

By analysing the rate of mutation in DNA samples from clan members, Prof Sykes was able to show that the Y-chromosome came from a common ancestor who lived roughly 1,000 years ago.
He then tested five chiefs from the clans and discovered they all shared the same chromosome, which convinced him that the common ancestor must be Somerled, Lord of the Isles, in keeping with clan histories.

However, the analysis threw into doubt Somerled’s own origins. Prof Sykes told The Scotsman: "In the traditional genealogy, Somerled is a great Celtic hero who drives the Norse from Scotland, but his Y- chromosome is definitely Norse. The genealogies trace him back to a long line of Irish kings. But that’s not what the Y-chromosome says.

"He is certainly of Norse Viking paternal origin."
It is open to question whether Somerled, who made driving the Vikings from western Scotland his "cause clbre", would have known the truth.

But Prof Sykes said: "I think it is something you would want to keep quiet."
The fact that clan chiefs still share the same basic Y-chromosome after some 87 generations shows that high-status women in the MacDonald, MacDougall and MacAllister clans were extremely faithful.

However, the large number of people alive today with the same Y-chromosome means the men in the family did not share this virtue to the same extent.
Maggie Macdonald, archivist of the Museum of the Isles on Skye, said Somerled was traditionally viewed as a Celtic hero.

But she added: "Maybe at that time it was more important who it was said you were descended from than who you were actually descended from.

"People may well have known his great-great-grandfather was a Viking.

"But it could have been that his great-great-grandmother had relations with someone who wasn’t her husband - it could be Somerled wouldn’t have known and thought he was this great Celtic hero."


Thought for the day .... Have u ever considered it may have been Somerled's wife that did the playing around making Alasdair Og not of Somerled's line and Rb1

Why would the person to drive the vikings out of Scotland be derived from a viking? This is believable if we talk about family feuds between the invading Danes in England and the local Anglo-Saxons whom had a degree of kinship and pedigrees to back up their relationship, but I am not all that familiar with Scottish history. If Somerled descended from a viking, I would have expected this to be noted at the time he lived, not in the age of DNA, 1000 years later. For the record it's R1b, not Rb1....

Romilius
02-15-2017, 04:29 PM
My money would be on the DF17+ lineage rather than a R1a lineage, simply because it doesn't make sense that a guy who fought off the vikings would have been derived from a viking lineage around the same time. Otherwise, we really need to rethink the origin of R1a in Britain and Ireland. Maybe my logic is a tad weak, but there is plenty of time for adoptions and NPE over a 1000 year span.

I really agree... after all, I think we can't fall into the error made in other fora, i.e. to say: "If it is R1b, then it must be false". Time to cease to overestimate R1a above other haplogroups (behaviour seen many times on the Web).

Some posts up there say that the erasing of the Norse origin was made for political motivations.

And another thing... I read some of the works of Bryan Sykes... well... I was astonished by the number of papers successfully refuted by other scholars. So, I think that, probably, also the study about the 5 lines of MacDonald is somewhat not on top of the situation, because, a study like this needs a lot of documentation upon genealogical papers and only after that, you can proceed with genetic testing and, of course, also genetic tests on ancient samples. Five lines are way too few and I couldn't read if the ancestry from Somerled was documented or only supposed. We are talking about a clan and a social organisation that needs much more samples in order to have an answer. It isn't like the great Larmuseau's paper about the three Bourbon lineages branching from Henry IV, so about three (or four... I don't remember) well documented lineages with plenty of documents.

ADW_1981
02-15-2017, 04:32 PM
I really agree... after all, I think we can't fall into the error made in other fora, i.e. to say: "If it is R1b, it must be false". Time to cease to overestimate R1a and to give R1b the place it deserves.

Some posts up there say that the erasing of the Norse origin was made for political motivations.

Or if the MacDonald clan truly has a R1a1 origin, which is completely plausible because I know NE Scotland is heavily Norwegian shifted and has a high % of R1a1, then there appears to be holes in the fables and stories of these famous figures. Again, I'm not the expert in the field, just going on common sense.

Dubhthach
02-15-2017, 04:56 PM
One word for ye: GallGoídil or as well say in modern Irish Gall-Ghaeil

Some relevant papers:
https://www.academia.edu/313174/The_origins_and_ancestry_of_Somerled

https://www.academia.edu/19596633/The_break_up_of_D%C3%A1l_Riata_and_the_rise_of_Gal lgo%C3%ADdil

JMcB
02-15-2017, 05:30 PM
One word for ye: GallGoídil or as well say in modern Irish Gall-Ghaeil

Some relevant papers:
https://www.academia.edu/313174/The_origins_and_ancestry_of_Somerled

https://www.academia.edu/19596633/The_break_up_of_D%C3%A1l_Riata_and_the_rise_of_Gal lgo%C3%ADdil

Yes, thank you!

oneillabu
02-15-2017, 07:39 PM
Oneillabu,

Just wondering if you have been able to find your way onto the Clan Donald DNA Project webpage yet? If you are still having issues, please let me know and I will attempt to assist you further.



The earliest Vikings in Scotland were recorded at the end of the Ninth Century (see link) and because you have decreed that Somerled was Norse then all of the following pedigrees are according to you fake


Book of Ballymote

Colla Uais
Ecach
Fergusa
Goffrid
Maini
Niallgusa
Suibni
Indirgi
Solamh
Gilladamnain
Gillebrigid
Somharli

Book of Lecan

Colla Uais
Eathach
Eircc
Fergag
Gofrag
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Miargaigi
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillabridi
Somairli

1467 MS

Colla Uais
Eathach Feighlioch
Cartain
Eirc
Fergusa
Gofrig
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Meargad
Solaim
Gill Eagamain
Gillbrigde
Somairle

Annals of Clonmacnoise

Colla Wais
Eahagh
Eirck
Fergussa
Cathwaye
Godfrey
Mayne
Nealgusa
Swyne
Meargaye
Salomon
Gille Gilladawnayne
Gillebride
Sawarle

Harleian MS 1425

Colla U Uais

Eache
Caraghan
Earc
Mayne
Nihallaghus
Gafrough
Meargaen
Suyvune
Solamh
Giolla Aghanam
Giolla Bruade
Somhairle


Monro 1549

Thola Craisme
Ethoy
Carlayne
Ericke
Fergus
Gothofreid
Racime
Malghwssa
Swyffine
Mearghaighe
Solla
Gille Adam
Gillebryde
Somarle

Keating

Colla Uais
Eochaid
Crimthann
Erc
Fergus
Goffradh
Mani
Niallgus
Suibhni
Medraide
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillebhridi na mbo
Samharli


O’Cleary

Colla Uais
Eirc
Carthenn
Fergus
Goffradha
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibhne
Merguidhe
Solamh
Giolla Adamnan
Giolla Bhride
Somhairle


These are all Celtic in origin and are proudly displayed on the McDonald website so according to you they basically have no relevance whatsoever to anyone bearing the surname McDonald so you might as well be displaying Norman or Saxon pedigrees on the website because they are meaningless.

I contacted this project a number of times asking them to contact people with likely L720 signatures regarding testing for this SNP and not once did I receive a reply which as you professed is exactly the way a project admin should behave, so basically according to you anyone R1b person with the surname McDonald does not have a right to follow any ancestral trail to the above pedigrees because they are fake so there is no point in any further testing of any individuals which is why you support the actions of the McDonald project in scattering people into unrelated clusters and not advising them about any further SNP testing, indeed actively discouraging them from doing so by preventing anyone who may try to help these individuals from contacting them.

SO WHY WOULD I HAVE ANY INTEREST IN ACCESSING THE CLAN DONALD WEBPAGE IF THIS IS ALL THEY HAVE TO OFFER THEIR MEMBERS


http://www.scottish-history.com/origins3.shtml

Peter MacDonald
02-15-2017, 10:57 PM
The earliest Vikings in Scotland were recorded at the end of the Ninth Century (see link) and because you have decreed that Somerled was Norse then all of the following pedigrees are according to you fake


Book of Ballymote

Colla Uais
Ecach
Fergusa
Goffrid
Maini
Niallgusa
Suibni
Indirgi
Solamh
Gilladamnain
Gillebrigid
Somharli

Book of Lecan

Colla Uais
Eathach
Eircc
Fergag
Gofrag
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Miargaigi
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillabridi
Somairli

1467 MS

Colla Uais
Eathach Feighlioch
Cartain
Eirc
Fergusa
Gofrig
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Meargad
Solaim
Gill Eagamain
Gillbrigde
Somairle

Annals of Clonmacnoise

Colla Wais
Eahagh
Eirck
Fergussa
Cathwaye
Godfrey
Mayne
Nealgusa
Swyne
Meargaye
Salomon
Gille Gilladawnayne
Gillebride
Sawarle

Harleian MS 1425

Colla U Uais

Eache
Caraghan
Earc
Mayne
Nihallaghus
Gafrough
Meargaen
Suyvune
Solamh
Giolla Aghanam
Giolla Bruade
Somhairle


Monro 1549

Thola Craisme
Ethoy
Carlayne
Ericke
Fergus
Gothofreid
Racime
Malghwssa
Swyffine
Mearghaighe
Solla
Gille Adam
Gillebryde
Somarle

Keating

Colla Uais
Eochaid
Crimthann
Erc
Fergus
Goffradh
Mani
Niallgus
Suibhni
Medraide
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillebhridi na mbo
Samharli


O’Cleary

Colla Uais
Eirc
Carthenn
Fergus
Goffradha
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibhne
Merguidhe
Solamh
Giolla Adamnan
Giolla Bhride
Somhairle


These are all Celtic in origin and are proudly displayed on the McDonald website so according to you they basically have no relevance whatsoever to anyone bearing the surname McDonald so you might as well be displaying Norman or Saxon pedigrees on the website because they are meaningless.

I contacted this project a number of times asking them to contact people with likely L720 signatures regarding testing for this SNP and not once did I receive a reply which as you professed is exactly the way a project admin should behave, so basically according to you anyone R1b person with the surname McDonald does not have a right to follow any ancestral trail to the above pedigrees because they are fake so there is no point in any further testing of any individuals which is why you support the actions of the McDonald project in scattering people into unrelated clusters and not advising them about any further SNP testing, indeed actively discouraging them from doing so by preventing anyone who may try to help these individuals from contacting them.

SO WHY WOULD I HAVE ANY INTEREST IN ACCESSING THE CLAN DONALD WEBPAGE IF THIS IS ALL THEY HAVE TO OFFER THEIR MEMBERS


http://www.scottish-history.com/origins3.shtml

oneillabu,

We discussed all this a number of posts ago I sure you could find them fairly quickly if you wanted to (these posts include among other things the idea of you creating your own L720 group for a number of various reasons). Originally you were claiming that Clan Donald was keeping their DNA Project secret (not available for public viewing) which I previously posted was not the case (you believed this to be so as you did not take the time to read their FTDNA page for the Clan Donald DNA Project). Since you are able to access all of the Clan Donald's R1B results you are more than free to determine who are good candidates to test for L720. All individuals who expressed a desire to be notified of new tests and/or being contacted by matches have a Yseach link on the data tables which will allow you to contact them. Best of luck ;)

Peter MacDonald
02-15-2017, 11:04 PM
The earliest Vikings in Scotland were recorded at the end of the Ninth Century (see link) and because you have decreed that Somerled was Norse then all of the following pedigrees are according to you fake


Book of Ballymote

Colla Uais
Ecach
Fergusa
Goffrid
Maini
Niallgusa
Suibni
Indirgi
Solamh
Gilladamnain
Gillebrigid
Somharli

Book of Lecan

Colla Uais
Eathach
Eircc
Fergag
Gofrag
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Miargaigi
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillabridi
Somairli

1467 MS

Colla Uais
Eathach Feighlioch
Cartain
Eirc
Fergusa
Gofrig
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Meargad
Solaim
Gill Eagamain
Gillbrigde
Somairle

Annals of Clonmacnoise

Colla Wais
Eahagh
Eirck
Fergussa
Cathwaye
Godfrey
Mayne
Nealgusa
Swyne
Meargaye
Salomon
Gille Gilladawnayne
Gillebride
Sawarle

Harleian MS 1425

Colla U Uais

Eache
Caraghan
Earc
Mayne
Nihallaghus
Gafrough
Meargaen
Suyvune
Solamh
Giolla Aghanam
Giolla Bruade
Somhairle


Monro 1549

Thola Craisme
Ethoy
Carlayne
Ericke
Fergus
Gothofreid
Racime
Malghwssa
Swyffine
Mearghaighe
Solla
Gille Adam
Gillebryde
Somarle

Keating

Colla Uais
Eochaid
Crimthann
Erc
Fergus
Goffradh
Mani
Niallgus
Suibhni
Medraide
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillebhridi na mbo
Samharli


O’Cleary

Colla Uais
Eirc
Carthenn
Fergus
Goffradha
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibhne
Merguidhe
Solamh
Giolla Adamnan
Giolla Bhride
Somhairle


These are all Celtic in origin and are proudly displayed on the McDonald website so according to you they basically have no relevance whatsoever to anyone bearing the surname McDonald so you might as well be displaying Norman or Saxon pedigrees on the website because they are meaningless.

I contacted this project a number of times asking them to contact people with likely L720 signatures regarding testing for this SNP and not once did I receive a reply which as you professed is exactly the way a project admin should behave, so basically according to you anyone R1b person with the surname McDonald does not have a right to follow any ancestral trail to the above pedigrees because they are fake so there is no point in any further testing of any individuals which is why you support the actions of the McDonald project in scattering people into unrelated clusters and not advising them about any further SNP testing, indeed actively discouraging them from doing so by preventing anyone who may try to help these individuals from contacting them.

SO WHY WOULD I HAVE ANY INTEREST IN ACCESSING THE CLAN DONALD WEBPAGE IF THIS IS ALL THEY HAVE TO OFFER THEIR MEMBERS


http://www.scottish-history.com/origins3.shtml


PS- I highly recommend reading the Clan Donald DNA Project website again a little more carefully as it appears you did not fully comprehend what is written on their site.

oneillabu
02-15-2017, 11:14 PM
People who have tested positive for the same SNP belong in the same group, this is basic project management, I offered to sponsor an L720 test for some of these people before in one of my previous emails and the offer still stands, lets start with McCaul (a sept of Clan McDonald) who has this ID in the project &CZAPG, then I will sponsor a test for McDonald with this ID &KLMOQ, now I do not think these people are L720+ I know they are and I have never been wrong with anyone I contacted before, not everyone uploads their results to YSearch or even knows how so they will simply sit there indefinitely in an undefined group which is not fair to them or anyone else who wishes to carry out meaningful research.

Peter MacDonald
02-15-2017, 11:23 PM
So what is the exact number of persons in all the Clan Donald DNA Project that you think is L720?

oneillabu
02-15-2017, 11:25 PM
Don't know, I have not done any research for over 6 months, too busy at work, the one's I quoted are in my database with years so they would be a good start.

Leitir Fura
02-15-2017, 11:26 PM
I think I will stick with supporting Bryan Sykes, the Oxford University professor of human genetics when it comes to Somerled... or have I missed something genetically discovered later...???

spruithean
02-15-2017, 11:32 PM
The earliest Vikings in Scotland were recorded at the end of the Ninth Century (see link) and because you have decreed that Somerled was Norse then all of the following pedigrees are according to you fake


Book of Ballymote

Colla Uais
Ecach
Fergusa
Goffrid
Maini
Niallgusa
Suibni
Indirgi
Solamh
Gilladamnain
Gillebrigid
Somharli

Book of Lecan

Colla Uais
Eathach
Eircc
Fergag
Gofrag
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Miargaigi
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillabridi
Somairli

1467 MS

Colla Uais
Eathach Feighlioch
Cartain
Eirc
Fergusa
Gofrig
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Meargad
Solaim
Gill Eagamain
Gillbrigde
Somairle

Annals of Clonmacnoise

Colla Wais
Eahagh
Eirck
Fergussa
Cathwaye
Godfrey
Mayne
Nealgusa
Swyne
Meargaye
Salomon
Gille Gilladawnayne
Gillebride
Sawarle

Harleian MS 1425

Colla U Uais

Eache
Caraghan
Earc
Mayne
Nihallaghus
Gafrough
Meargaen
Suyvune
Solamh
Giolla Aghanam
Giolla Bruade
Somhairle


Monro 1549

Thola Craisme
Ethoy
Carlayne
Ericke
Fergus
Gothofreid
Racime
Malghwssa
Swyffine
Mearghaighe
Solla
Gille Adam
Gillebryde
Somarle

Keating

Colla Uais
Eochaid
Crimthann
Erc
Fergus
Goffradh
Mani
Niallgus
Suibhni
Medraide
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillebhridi na mbo
Samharli


O’Cleary

Colla Uais
Eirc
Carthenn
Fergus
Goffradha
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibhne
Merguidhe
Solamh
Giolla Adamnan
Giolla Bhride
Somhairle


These are all Celtic in origin and are proudly displayed on the McDonald website so according to you they basically have no relevance whatsoever to anyone bearing the surname McDonald so you might as well be displaying Norman or Saxon pedigrees on the website because they are meaningless.

I contacted this project a number of times asking them to contact people with likely L720 signatures regarding testing for this SNP and not once did I receive a reply which as you professed is exactly the way a project admin should behave, so basically according to you anyone R1b person with the surname McDonald does not have a right to follow any ancestral trail to the above pedigrees because they are fake so there is no point in any further testing of any individuals which is why you support the actions of the McDonald project in scattering people into unrelated clusters and not advising them about any further SNP testing, indeed actively discouraging them from doing so by preventing anyone who may try to help these individuals from contacting them.

SO WHY WOULD I HAVE ANY INTEREST IN ACCESSING THE CLAN DONALD WEBPAGE IF THIS IS ALL THEY HAVE TO OFFER THEIR MEMBERS


http://www.scottish-history.com/origins3.shtml

Aren't some of these pedigrees semi-mythical if not entirely mythical? I would take some of them with a grain of salt.

Also even if the pedigrees are legitimate NPEs and such events are not uncommon.

oneillabu
02-15-2017, 11:36 PM
People are entitled to support any research they wish but that does not mean that their chosen researcher is right, look at O'Rahilly who was frequently quoted on this forum however most of his theories have been debunked at this stage, carry out as much SNP testing as possible with as many people as possible tested to 111 markers and then lets look at which pedigrees are plausible based on these results by comparing surnames and genetic distances, this is what is required.

Peter MacDonald
02-15-2017, 11:48 PM
Don't know, I have not done any research for over 6 months, too busy at work, the one's I quoted are in my database with years so they would be a good start.

oneillabu, from your reply it appears that you have only found two persons who you believe to be L720+ in all of the Clan Donald DNA Project results? And both didn't bother signing up for YSearch? Too bad.

Peter MacDonald
02-16-2017, 12:07 AM
I think I will stick with supporting Bryan Sykes, the Oxford University professor of human genetics when it comes to Somerled... or have I missed something genetically discovered later...???

Are you kidding me? Have you even read any of Bryan Skyes books? Mainly "Adam's Curse: The Science That Reveals Our Genetic Destiny"??

First Edition page 181:

"Somerled's own traditional genealogy stretches back through his father, Gillebride, to his grandfather, Gilledomnan, and back to the kings of Ireland - to Colla Uais in the four century and as far back to the legendary Conn of the Hundred Battles in the second century. This is a fitting pedigree for a Celtic hero. However, I do not think it can be accurate, for the following reason. Somerled's Y-chromosome is class 3 - a type that is almost unknown in Ireland outside the Scandinavian enclaves......"

I recommend going back and reading or rereading Skyes work as it does not support what you state it does.

Leitir Fura
02-16-2017, 12:21 AM
What is it you do not understand Peter .... All I have stated is that Sykes believes Somerled was of Norse blood e.g. Scandinavian enclave - as you yourself have stated above.

Have I missed something genetically discovered later...??? All I have said is that it means that a number of Somerled's listed sons must have been stepsons as they were R1b.... Also I have no doubt that many who supported the later Macdonalds no doubt took that name, the same as they did in many clanns. This does not impact on the fact that Somerled was of Norse blood and that church scribes made a genealogical link to Somerled in various Irish genealogies for political reasons and to no doubt justify their claim that all roads lead back to Rome. Likewise the myth (not proven one way of the other) of the early Dalriata genealogy maybe a fiction also.... but not to say there wasn't a movement from northern Ireland to the western seaboard with others supporting it.

In this I found the two articles very interesting...

I know many get very precious about their own pet theories but I would rather believe an Oxford geneticist than a lot of unsubstantiated church political history

As for L720... any number of Macdonalds that were R1b could be L720 positive (as per your suggestion) and the origin of L720 may have an early Irish connection as O'Neill appears to be early in L720 origin.

Question : Did anyone conclude the approximate age of L720.... or was it just that a common ancestor existed around 220 BC that looks like it was Irish?

Peter MacDonald
02-16-2017, 12:55 AM
What is it you do not understand Peter .... All I have stated is that Sykes believes Somerled was of Norse blood e.g. Scandinavian enclave - as you yourself have stated above.

Have I missed something genetically discovered later...??? All I have said is that it means that a number of Somerled's listed sons must have been stepsons as they were R1b.... Also I have no doubt that many who supported the later Macdonalds no doubt took that name, the same as they did in many clanns. This does not impact on the fact that Somerled was of Norse blood and that church scribes made a genealogical link to Somerled in various Irish genealogies for political reasons and to no doubt justify their claim that all roads lead back to Rome. Likewise the myth (not proven one way of the other) of the early Dalriata genealogy maybe a fiction also.... but not to say there wasn't a movement from northern Ireland to the western seaboard with others supporting it.

In this I found the two articles very interesting...

I know many get very precious about their own pet theories but I would rather believe an Oxford geneticist than a lot of unsubstantiated church political history

As for L720... any number of Macdonalds that were R1b could be L720 positive (as per your suggestion) and the origin of L720 may have an early Irish connection as O'Neill appears to be early in L720 origin.

Question : Did anyone conclude the approximate age of L720.... or was it just that a common ancestor existed around 220 BC that looks like it was Irish?

Leitir Fura, I guess I must have been confused WRT your thoughts on Somerled's Y DNA signature. My apologies for the confusion on my part. One question though, what evidence have you come across that supports your statement "Somerled's listed sons must have been stepsons as they were R1b..."?

WRT your last post, what evidence have you come across that supports your statement "....the origin of L720 may have an early Irish connection as O'Neill appears to be early in L720 origin." I was under the understanding that most claim that the O'Neill line has an M222 signature, I haven't read much about M222 for a fairly long time though.

castle3
02-16-2017, 09:04 AM
I'm afraid many clan histories are built on dubious origin myths & legends. One of the origin legends for my own surname suggested that our progenitor was a famed warrior. Closer inspection revealed that his only two sons died without male issue. Sadly, that hasn't prevented numerous works from supporting that scenario!
Interestingly, there was a drive in the Victorian era by some to claim Germanic ancestry for their ancestors. This stemmed from a keenness to ape Victoria's ancestry. Periodicals of the time often portrayed Scots as kilt-wearing drunks, sat on the floor, surrounded by empty whisky bottles. Luckily, we've moved on since those days!
As we know, much doubt surrounds the Dalriada-Argyll scenario, plus many are now aware of the bias shown by Medieval scribes wishing to show the supremacy of their own particular branch of the church.
The influence of Roman & Norman DNA, particularly in Scotland, is now being down-graded. Also, the influence of Norse DNA in the Orkneys was shown by PoBI to be equally over-blown. From memory, some 75% of the DNA found in the Orkneys is now thought to be indigenous, and not Norse, so one can imagine that regions further south might be even more solidly indigenous. Luckily, we're all getting far more sceptical & cynical.
On a slightly different tack: 'Who Do You Think You Are?' recently featured Greg Davies' family tree. They told Greg he was a descendant of the Medieval Prince of Wales. He was ecstatic. However, he later went to a Gwynedd pub and met dozens of others who had similar claims. One wonders how many were truly of that line!

Romilius
02-16-2017, 10:59 AM
I'm afraid many clan histories are built on dubious origin myths & legends. One of the origin legends for my own surname suggested that our progenitor was a famed warrior. Closer inspection revealed that his only two sons died without male issue. Sadly, that hasn't prevented numerous works from supporting that scenario!
Interestingly, there was a drive in the Victorian era by some to claim Germanic ancestry for their ancestors. This stemmed from a keenness to ape Victoria's ancestry. Periodicals of the time often portrayed Scots as kilt-wearing drunks, sat on the floor, surrounded by empty whisky bottles. Luckily, we've moved on since those days!
As we know, much doubt surrounds the Dalriada-Argyll scenario, plus many are now aware of the bias shown by Medieval scribes wishing to show the supremacy of their own particular branch of the church.
The influence of Roman & Norman DNA, particularly in Scotland, is now being down-graded. Also, the influence of Norse DNA in the Orkneys was shown by PoBI to be equally over-blown. From memory, some 75% of the DNA found in the Orkneys is now thought to be indigenous, and not Norse - so one can imagine that regions further south might be even more solidly indigenous. Luckily, we're all getting far more sceptical & cynical.
On a slightly different tack: 'Who Do You Think You Are?' recently featured Greg Davies' family tree. They told Greg he was a descendant of the Medieval Prince of Wales. He was ecstatic. However, he later went to the local Gwynedd pub and met dozens of others who had similar claims. One wonders how many were truly of that line!

Holy words... indeed. Thanks for your contribution.

I think that, more or less, all of us descended from prominents also in paternal line of a precise era (think about that prominent of the Tumulus culture in Untermeitingen who was R-DF27, the first DF27 found to date)... obviously, the luckiest are those who have a complete genealogical documented records linking them to some prominents historically existed. For the others, it is like the situation of the hidalguìa in Spain: in the Basque Country (Vizcaia and Guipuzkoa) the population was 100% noble of hidalgo extraction. On the contrary, in the south of Spain, only a tiny minority of population was hidalga... so, you can understand that to be noble in the Basque Country wasn't so exciting, but being noble in the South was a real privilège and distinction.

oneillabu
02-16-2017, 10:41 PM
oneillabu, from your reply it appears that you have only found two persons who you believe to be L720+ in all of the Clan Donald DNA Project results? And both didn't bother signing up for YSearch? Too bad.

I really do not have time to argue with you, there is no reason why my offer to sponsor tests for these people could not be passed on to them by the project but if that is your choice then fine, that does not change the fact that they are L720+ the same as all the members shown below in your project some who have tested because I contacted them by YSearch and some not, if I were running the project then I would make sure all these people are in a seperate L720 group because they are all clearly L720+ but its your project and I am not a McDonald so it does not concern me, maybe they will decide to upgrade themselves at some stage so then it becomes irrelevant however there can be no doubt as to their L720 status so I will use them in my database anyway.

&PVWFC
&CZAPG
&KLMOQ
&42RHY
&D3HFH
&MUKLM
&PSWSW
&AUKTK

oneillabu
02-16-2017, 10:53 PM
I know many get very precious about their own pet theories but I would rather believe an Oxford geneticist than a lot of unsubstantiated church political history

As for L720... any number of Macdonalds that were R1b could be L720 positive (as per your suggestion) and the origin of L720 may have an early Irish connection as O'Neill appears to be early in L720 origin.

Question : Did anyone conclude the approximate age of L720.... or was it just that a common ancestor existed around 220 BC that looks like it was Irish?

Based on genetic distances L720 is approximately 1500 years old and the ancestor of the Scottish group is also Irish (Driscol) also with consistent Genetic distances showing two distinct lines of L720 which as I have pointed out in numerous posts before is exactly as the pedigrees state but in case you missed it here is one of my earlier posts again however it does not include O'Driscol or some other later matches to the L720 signature

It is safe to assume then that there is no male Norse pedigree for Somerled Mac Gillebride so what possibilities does that give us for the R1a Clan Chief’s

1: That all of the pedigrees are pure fiction and there was no male Celtic ancestor

2: That the Norse DNA is from male ancestors of the female line (in-laws) who used the name surname McDonald.

3: That there was an NPE event sometime after Somerled.

It is highly unlikely that all of these pedigrees are fabricated because of the entries in the various Annals so it is entirely reasonable that we may search for a Celtic McDonald descended from the line of Somerled that pre-dates the Norse Clan Chief’s.

Somerled’s Father is given as Gillebride of Clan Angus so he was effectively of the same line as Clan Mac Aonghuis (McInnes) and is actually recorded as leading Clan McInnes against the Viking’s, he is also supposed to be buried on the Island of Iona the same as the ancient McInnes clan which further supports the McInnes connection. He is recorded in the Annals of Ulster in 1164 as trying to persuade the then Abbot of Derry Flaithbertach Ua Brolchain to relocate to the Island of Iona further supporting his connection with Iona. According to the old Seanachies and supported by the given pedigrees Gillebride was a descendent of Aonghuis son of Erc, hence the name Mac Aonghuis, this Aonghuis was a Brother of Fergus Mor Mac Erc.

Somerled’s Mother is reputed to be a Daughter of Sigurd Hlodvisson or Sigurd the Stout whose Mother was said to be Eithne a Daughter of Cerball Mac Dunlainge King of Ossory. This shows that Somerled had Norse blood on his Mothers side and is mentioned by Scotland’s foremost genealogist Donald Whyte who states that Somerled was of Celtic origin but had Norse blood.


Somerled married Raghnailt the daughter of Olaf King of Mann and the Isles further reinforcing the Norse connection into subsequent generations.


The 1467 MS was partially written in the year 1467 (hence the name) by member of the MacMhuirich bardic family who were bards to the Lords of the Isles. This further supports the authenticity of the Somerled pedigree in this manuscript because they would have had first hand knowledge.


The 1467 MS is the oldest Scottish pedigree document so If you look through the various pedigrees descended from Erc the only surname associated with DF41 is McLellan which is simply not enough to support this theory. That is assuming the Kenneth McAlpine was actually descended from Erc however if he was not then this may fit into your theory that he was DF41. My own L720 branch of DF21 seems to tick all the boxes for a descent from Fergus Mor Mac Erc with the following all recorded in the MS1467 pedigrees


Fergus Mor Mac Erc

Clan Chattan - L720 surnames associated with clan chatten

Six matches to Gille Iosa (Gillis)
Four matches to MacIntosh (Mac an Toiseach)
One MacPherson (Son of the Parson)
One Davidson
One McKillian (McQuilkin of Rathlin Island)

Clan MacInnes of Iona L720 matches
Seven MacInnes with a good GD spread confirming the antiquity of the line

Lord of the Isles MacDonald associated with Clan MacInnes that match the MacInnes above
Three MacDonalds
One McCaul (a sept of the Lord of the Isles MacDonalds)

Clan Gille Fhaolain (McNab) L720 matches
Two McLellan's one from North Uist and the other from South Uist
One McClelland (Same name as MacLellan)
One Weir (clan McNab surname)

Muircheartach Mor Mac Erc (Brother of Fergus and ancestor of O'Neill of Ulster)
One O'Neill from Ireland
This O'Neill has markers that are distinct from the Scottish line showing a seperate Irish line, the genetic distance at 67 markers is remarkably consistant at 11 or 12 indicating a common ancestor with the Scottish line of around 1500 years ago .

Other L720 surnames

Colonial cluster stemming from a recent common ancestor, a GD of 10 at 111 markers to McLellan indicate that this group are descended from Scottish McLellan.
Farris
Williams
Singleton

Of 31 people with clear L720 signatures we have 28 who have surnames associated with the line of Erc and the other three are almost certainly descended from a Scottish McLellan and this is clearly the only SNP with this high percentage of surname matches so therefore is by far the best contender for the descendents of this line to date. I am aware that this may change in the future as more people test but for now I am sticking to my guns that L720 is the line of Fergus Mor Mac Erc


http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/


Now compare that to the Genetic distances from O’Neill to the various L720 matches

McInnes 1 distance at 67 = 13
McInnes 2 distance at 67 = 12
Farris distance at 67 = 13
Davidson distance at 67 = 11
McPherson distance at 67 = 11
Singleton distance at 67 = 11
McLellan distance at 67 = 11
Gillis 1 distance at 67 = 11
Gillis 2 distance at 67 = 11

Average GD at 67 = 12 (11.55)

This is the correct distance you would expect from a common ancestor from around 1500 years ago and is right on the money for the Kings of Dalriada as the L720 surnames suggest.

Peter MacDonald
02-16-2017, 11:11 PM
Based on genetic distances L720 is approximately 1500 years old and the ancestor of the Scottish group is also Irish (Driscol) also with consistent Genetic distances showing two distinct lines of L720 which as I have pointed out in numerous posts before is exactly as the pedigrees state but in case you missed it here is one of my earlier posts again however it does not include O'Driscol or some other later matches to the L720 signature

It is safe to assume then that there is no male Norse pedigree for Somerled Mac Gillebride so what possibilities does that give us for the R1a Clan Chief’s

1: That all of the pedigrees are pure fiction and there was no male Celtic ancestor

2: That the Norse DNA is from male ancestors of the female line (in-laws) who used the name surname McDonald.

3: That there was an NPE event sometime after Somerled.

It is highly unlikely that all of these pedigrees are fabricated because of the entries in the various Annals so it is entirely reasonable that we may search for a Celtic McDonald descended from the line of Somerled that pre-dates the Norse Clan Chief’s.

Somerled’s Father is given as Gillebride of Clan Angus so he was effectively of the same line as Clan Mac Aonghuis (McInnes) and is actually recorded as leading Clan McInnes against the Viking’s, he is also supposed to be buried on the Island of Iona the same as the ancient McInnes clan which further supports the McInnes connection. He is recorded in the Annals of Ulster in 1164 as trying to persuade the then Abbot of Derry Flaithbertach Ua Brolchain to relocate to the Island of Iona further supporting his connection with Iona. According to the old Seanachies and supported by the given pedigrees Gillebride was a descendent of Aonghuis son of Erc, hence the name Mac Aonghuis, this Aonghuis was a Brother of Fergus Mor Mac Erc.

Somerled’s Mother is reputed to be a Daughter of Sigurd Hlodvisson or Sigurd the Stout whose Mother was said to be Eithne a Daughter of Cerball Mac Dunlainge King of Ossory. This shows that Somerled had Norse blood on his Mothers side and is mentioned by Scotland’s foremost genealogist Donald Whyte who states that Somerled was of Celtic origin but had Norse blood.


Somerled married Raghnailt the daughter of Olaf King of Mann and the Isles further reinforcing the Norse connection into subsequent generations.


The 1467 MS was partially written in the year 1467 (hence the name) by member of the MacMhuirich bardic family who were bards to the Lords of the Isles. This further supports the authenticity of the Somerled pedigree in this manuscript because they would have had first hand knowledge.


The 1467 MS is the oldest Scottish pedigree document so If you look through the various pedigrees descended from Erc the only surname associated with DF41 is McLellan which is simply not enough to support this theory. That is assuming the Kenneth McAlpine was actually descended from Erc however if he was not then this may fit into your theory that he was DF41. My own L720 branch of DF21 seems to tick all the boxes for a descent from Fergus Mor Mac Erc with the following all recorded in the MS1467 pedigrees


Fergus Mor Mac Erc

Clan Chattan - L720 surnames associated with clan chatten

Six matches to Gille Iosa (Gillis)
Four matches to MacIntosh (Mac an Toiseach)
One MacPherson (Son of the Parson)
One Davidson
One McKillian (McQuilkin of Rathlin Island)

Clan MacInnes of Iona L720 matches
Seven MacInnes with a good GD spread confirming the antiquity of the line

Lord of the Isles MacDonald associated with Clan MacInnes that match the MacInnes above
Three MacDonalds
One McCaul (a sept of the Lord of the Isles MacDonalds)

Clan Gille Fhaolain (McNab) L720 matches
Two McLellan's one from North Uist and the other from South Uist
One McClelland (Same name as MacLellan)
One Weir (clan McNab surname)

Muircheartach Mor Mac Erc (Brother of Fergus and ancestor of O'Neill of Ulster)
One O'Neill from Ireland
This O'Neill has markers that are distinct from the Scottish line showing a seperate Irish line, the genetic distance at 67 markers is remarkably consistant at 11 or 12 indicating a common ancestor with the Scottish line of around 1500 years ago .

Other L720 surnames

Colonial cluster stemming from a recent common ancestor, a GD of 10 at 111 markers to McLellan indicate that this group are descended from Scottish McLellan.
Farris
Williams
Singleton

Of 31 people with clear L720 signatures we have 28 who have surnames associated with the line of Erc and the other three are almost certainly descended from a Scottish McLellan and this is clearly the only SNP with this high percentage of surname matches so therefore is by far the best contender for the descendents of this line to date. I am aware that this may change in the future as more people test but for now I am sticking to my guns that L720 is the line of Fergus Mor Mac Erc


http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/


Now compare that to the Genetic distances from O’Neill to the various L720 matches

McInnes 1 distance at 67 = 13
McInnes 2 distance at 67 = 12
Farris distance at 67 = 13
Davidson distance at 67 = 11
McPherson distance at 67 = 11
Singleton distance at 67 = 11
McLellan distance at 67 = 11
Gillis 1 distance at 67 = 11
Gillis 2 distance at 67 = 11

Average GD at 67 = 12 (11.55)

This is the correct distance you would expect from a common ancestor from around 1500 years ago and is right on the money for the Kings of Dalriada as the L720 surnames suggest.

Congratulations on figuring it all out with such a limited amount of data or historical records!!! Spot on ;)

oneillabu
02-16-2017, 11:45 PM
At least I use data which makes me the only one on this site, opinions are not data

Peter MacDonald
02-17-2017, 12:02 AM
At least I use data which makes me the only one on this site, opinions are not data

What's with the insults??? Didn't i just congratulate you on your great success?? Do you have plans to publish in the near future? If so are you planning on an article or perhaps a book? I personally recommend a book, as this discovery will have a profound impact on various aspects of Scottish/Irish culture and history!!!!! CONGRATULATIONS once again!!!!!

Peter MacDonald
02-17-2017, 12:04 AM
At least I use data which makes me the only one on this site, opinions are not data


You know what?? You are absolutely correct. Reading your posts is a breath of fresh air!!! Look forward to reading your next one :)

Peter MacDonald
02-17-2017, 12:11 AM
I really do not have time to argue with you, there is no reason why my offer to sponsor tests for these people could not be passed on to them by the project but if that is your choice then fine, that does not change the fact that they are L720+ the same as all the members shown below in your project some who have tested because I contacted them by YSearch and some not, if I were running the project then I would make sure all these people are in a seperate L720 group because they are all clearly L720+ but its your project and I am not a McDonald so it does not concern me, maybe they will decide to upgrade themselves at some stage so then it becomes irrelevant however there can be no doubt as to their L720 status so I will use them in my database anyway.

&PVWFC
&CZAPG
&KLMOQ
&42RHY
&D3HFH
&MUKLM
&PSWSW
&AUKTK

You do realize that you can email the last five persons on your list without any assistance from Clan Donald Admins right??

RobertCasey
02-17-2017, 03:36 PM
Here is a recent post that I made on the FTDNA L226 activity feed on an update on the King Brian Boru genetic line. This takes a pretty genetic data only point of view vs. using genetic data to support the existing literature on the royalty of Ireland and Scotland:

The descendants of Brian Boru (who lived in the 900s) are based on our titled descendant whose ancestors are required to prove their all male line from Brian Boru (around 40 generations). We know that this line is Y5610 > DC1 > Y5913 > FGC13418. This is based on two assumptions: 1) our royal line is confirmed to be FGC13418; 2) the dominance of the surname being O'Brien and variants along this path of YSNP mutations. Below is a summary of percentage of testers who are O'Brien or O'Brien variant surnames:

ZZ34_1__________2 of 15 - 13 %
DC33____________1 of 3 - 33 %
Y5610___________6 of 6 - 100 %
DC1_____________9 of 11 - 82 %
Y6913___________2 of 3 - 67 %
FGC13418_______2 of 2 - 100 %

Before Brian Boru, usually only royalty carried surnames - not even sure they did. But surnames started around 1,000 years ago for English surnames and maybe 100 to 300 years earlier for Scottish and Irish clan names. So tracking lines before Brian Boru will be problematic since surnames were not used in any quantity or consistency prior to or even just after the Brian Boru time frame. I would defer to surname origin experts on this subject since this is a relatively new issue for me (I am still stuck in the 1750s for my Casey line in South Carolina for my L226 line).

However, since it is obvious that descendants of Brian Boru carry the O'Brien surname and all the recent variants, Y5610 looks like the time frame that the O'Brien surname was used by descendants of the royal line of O'Brien testers. It used to be DC1 but with discovery of Y5610, it moved up another YSNP branch. Also, DC33 and ZZ34_1 are not well tested to date. In this time frame, there is no YSTR signature for these branches below the L226 signature at 67 makers (only 481 (22>23), so only YSNP testing will reveal more detail. 481 (22>23) is not unique to ZZ34_1 and DC33, as it shows up all across the L226 haplotree. Again, only YSNP testing would reveal which YSTR branch of 481 (22>23) that you belong to.

Since DC33 can only be tested by NGS testing, this would be hard to test. One thing that could be done to help out. 154629/Dunphy is the only predicted submission to be DC33 positive based on the signature of 164407/Goodhind. This person could test the two private YSNPs of 164407, DC290 and DC291 at YSEQ. If one of these private YSNPs tested positive, this would create a branch for both testers and would only leave the O'Brien/176989 as the last remaining DC33 tester known to be DC33 positive and negative for all sons of DC33. This would increase O'Brien percentage from 33 % to 100 %.

Also, the Dunphy tester would make an ideal NGS tester since only three individuals belong to DC33 POS and all sons negative. But the SNP pack would not help the Dunphy tester since DC33 is not included in the L226 SNP Pack due to being in an unstable area. It would asking a lot of the Dunphy tester for this kind of testing, so you may have to sponsor his testing for YSEQ or NGS testing. Also, Full Genomes Y Elite 2.1 would be a much better NGS choice as there more possibility of discovering more YSNPs and there is so little YSTR diversity along this chain of YSNP branches.

Update - Five Kennedy submissions are now predicted to be DC33 positive based on the signature of Goodhind. So it now appears that DC33 may be prior to the usage of the surname of O'Brien. But if Dunphy and Goodhind create a new branch, the Kennedy genetic cluster could be an early NPE line off the O'Brien line as well. Also, none of the Kennedy submissions have taken a NGS test to confirm their status of DC33 (only NGS tests can confirm this branch). The Kennedy cluster could move up to the ZZ34_1 branch with future testing. NGS testing of this Kennedy cluster would be very useful to determining which YSNP branch most likely represents the origins of the King Brian Boru line (at least when they started regularly using the O'Brien surname).

Here is my haplotree chart of L226 (now 78 % coverage) that is the source for this information:

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf

(http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf)

CillKenny
02-17-2017, 06:53 PM
Here is a recent post that I made on the FTDNA L226 activity feed on an update on the King Brian Boru genetic line. This takes a pretty genetic data only point of view vs. using genetic data to support the existing literature on the royalty of Ireland and Scotland:

The descendants of Brian Boru (who lived in the 900s) are based on our titled descendant whose ancestors are required to prove their all male line from Brian Boru (around 40 generations). We know that this line is Y5610 > DC1 > Y5913 > FGC13418. This is based on two assumptions: 1) our royal line is confirmed to be FGC13418; 2) the dominance of the surname being O'Brien and variants along this path of YSNP mutations. Below is a summary of percentage of testers who are O'Brien or O'Brien variant surnames:

ZZ34_1__________2 of 15 - 13 %
DC33____________1 of 3 - 33 %
Y5610___________6 of 6 - 100 %
DC1_____________9 of 11 - 82 %
Y6913___________2 of 3 - 67 %
FGC13418_______2 of 2 - 100 %

Before Brian Boru, usually only royalty carried surnames - not even sure they did. But surnames started around 1,000 years ago for English surnames and maybe 100 to 300 years earlier for Scottish and Irish clan names. So tracking lines before Brian Boru will be problematic since surnames were not used in any quantity or consistency prior to or even just after the Brian Boru time frame. I would defer to surname origin experts on this subject since this is a relatively new issue for me (I am still stuck in the 1750s for my Casey line in South Carolina for my L226 line).

However, since it is obvious that descendants of Brian Boru carry the O'Brien surname and all the recent variants, Y5610 looks like the time frame that the O'Brien surname was used by descendants of the royal line of O'Brien testers. It used to be DC1 but with discovery of Y5610, it moved up another YSNP branch. Also, DC33 and ZZ34_1 are not well tested to date. In this time frame, there is no YSTR signature for these branches below the L226 signature at 67 makers (only 481 (22>23), so only YSNP testing will reveal more detail. 481 (22>23) is not unique to ZZ34_1 and DC33, as it shows up all across the L226 haplotree. Again, only YSNP testing would reveal which YSTR branch of 481 (22>23) that you belong to.

Since DC33 can only be tested by NGS testing, this would be hard to test. One thing that could be done to help out. 154629/Dunphy is the only predicted submission to be DC33 positive based on the signature of 164407/Goodhind. This person could test the two private YSNPs of 164407, DC290 and DC291 at YSEQ. If one of these private YSNPs tested positive, this would create a branch for both testers and would only leave the O'Brien/176989 as the last remaining DC33 tester known to be DC33 positive and negative for all sons of DC33. This would increase O'Brien percentage from 33 % to 100 %.

Also, the Dunphy tester would make an ideal NGS tester since only three individuals belong to DC33 POS and all sons negative. But the SNP pack would not help the Dunphy tester since DC33 is not included in the L226 SNP Pack due to being in an unstable area. It would asking a lot of the Dunphy tester for this kind of testing, so you may have to sponsor his testing for YSEQ or NGS testing. Also, Full Genomes Y Elite 2.1 would be a much better NGS choice as there more possibility of discovering more YSNPs and there is so little YSTR diversity along this chain of YSNP branches.

Update - Five Kennedy submissions are now predicted to be DC33 positive based on the signature of Goodhind. So it now appears that DC33 may be prior to the usage of the surname of O'Brien. But if Dunphy and Goodhind create a new branch, the Kennedy genetic cluster could be an early NPE line off the O'Brien line as well. Also, none of the Kennedy submissions have taken a NGS test to confirm their status of DC33 (only NGS tests can confirm this branch). The Kennedy cluster could move up to the ZZ34_1 branch with future testing. NGS testing of this Kennedy cluster would be very useful to determining which YSNP branch most likely represents the origins of the King Brian Boru line (at least when they started regularly using the O'Brien surname).

Here is my haplotree chart of L226 (now 78 % coverage) that is the source for this information:

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf

(http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf)

Robert, thanks for that. For anyone interested here are the links to two very interesting lectures on the O'Briens at GGI 2016.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp-1bfxaXYs (includes a bit at the end from Conor O'Brien - Baron Inchiquin)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoNNHRWIXQ0

Webb
02-17-2017, 07:29 PM
Has anyone discussed the Scottish Clans who are positive for DF27>L165? Jean M is sticking to her guns that it is a Scandinavian marker, but I don't see how you can look at the growing FTDNA L165 project and start to doubt that is the case. The BY132 branch consists of numerous Scottish clans, while BY132>BY209 includes the MacDonalds of Caithness and the MacNiells of Barra. The BY132>BY3257 branch includes a French surname and numerous English and Scottish surnames.
On a separate branch, BY456 includes again a French surname and numerous English and Scottish surnames including the MacLeods of Iverness and McNeill of Skye. The British L165 members far outnumber the few Scandinavian members and the TMRCA dates are not supporting Viking incursions. Any thoughts?

oneillabu
02-17-2017, 08:09 PM
You do realize that you can email the last five persons on your list without any assistance from Clan Donald Admins right??

If you read my post you would see that I already have, three replied and tested positive for L720 however I found them by doing a search on markers in YSearch not from the links in the McDonald website, this does not prevent your project from grouping people together who are clearly related or replying to numerous polite requests to contact the other four for testing.

Peter MacDonald
02-17-2017, 08:48 PM
If you read my post you would see that I already have, three replied and tested positive for L720 however I found them by doing a search on markers in YSearch not from the links in the McDonald website, this does not prevent your project from grouping people together who are clearly related or replying to numerous polite requests to contact the other four for testing.

What ever you say. Fortunately you will not require any further testers from the content of your previous posts. Congratulations once again!!!

oneillabu
02-17-2017, 10:34 PM
This was posted by me on

04-07-2015, 08:26 PM

this list can now be expanded using the up to date data from tested DF21 people




Here are the actual pedigrees of the Ui Maine taken from the Book of Lecan
broken down into sections, note that the name Trainor is not included in any
pedigree. I have included the kit number or YSearch ID of any DF21 matches
to each branch. If you compare this with theDF23/Z2961 matches you will see
that DF21 has a far stronger claim to be Ui Maine, especially since this is
the main DF21 hotspot. The only DF23 names from these pedigrees are one
Madden and a cluster of Kelly's who share a fairly recent common ancestor
and yet the M222 Niall propaganda has labelled this as Ui Maine even though
there is no supporting evidence.

Here are the various Ui Maine Branches

CLANN CERNAIGH

O'Finain Finan, Fanning One match 173456 Feehan One Match 98203 (clan colla)
Feeney

O'Laidhin Lyons, Lynne One example B8179

O'Lachtnain Loughnan Laughlin Four matches 103901, 158243, 311927, 149586
443955

Conbhuidhe Conway, Conroy, Conry two matches 218112, 199254, possible third
Conlon 324600

O'Ceinneididh Kennedy Four matches 169021, N30683, N21843, 81497

O'Dorchaidhi Darcy, Dorsey One Match 23504

Sidhachain Sheehan, One Match 205682

Cuilein, Cullen and Collins, One Match 210550 Cullen

THE CLANN AEDHAGAIN

Mac Egans Three matches 67599, 3676, 51686

THE CLANN FLAITHEAMHAIL MIC DLUTHAIGH.

O'Domnallains, Donnelan, Donald, Daniels Six matches, 44725, 286983, 183628,
177135, 278841, 184048

O'Maeilalaidfi's, Lally, Mulally, One Match, 217777

THE CINEL FATHAIDH

O'Fathaidh Faherty, Fahy, Flaherty,

PEDIGREE OF HY-CORMAIC OF MAENMAGH

Niall, son of Cerbhall, numerous DF21 Carrolls

SIL ANMCHADA

O'Maddens, One Match N61052

Ua Churrain Curran, No Curran match, one possible Curry mistranslation Kit
number 116797

Ua Cinaeith, Kenny, One Match V8A7U

Muinter Chobhthaigh, Coffey, One Match, 95987

Ua Brenainn Brennan, One Mulvihill Match, 163988

Muintir Chicharain, Keighry, Carey, One Carey Match 84279

Muintir Rodaighi, Ruddy, Roddy, Reidy Two Matches, 204692, 63208

Muinter Conghalaigh, Conely, Two Matches 263699, 111808

Ua Dubhlaigh, Dooley, Six Matches, 24765, 115408, 214229, 3224, 168720, 1405

Muinter Lorcain, Larkin, Six matches, L-0088, L-0078, L-0083, L-0004,
L-0065, L-0087

Ua Maenaigh, Mooney, Three matches LSC 146064, N92313, 76448,

THE MUINNTER CHOBHTHAIGH,

Muinter Madadhain. Madden, One Match N61052

Muinter Chinaith, Kenny, One Match V8A7U

Muinter Tresaigh, Tracey Seven matches, 289639, 335793, 164932, 129222,
185725, 45013, 271750

Ua Churrain Curran, No Curran match, one possible Curry mistranslation Kit
number 116797

Ua Aedha, Hughes, Hugh. McHugh Four matches, 7996 (Colla), 182014, MESPS,
EBJTD

Muinter Ruairc, O'Rourke, Six Matches, N105692, H1730, 144806, 126218,
67651, 133193

Muinter Dubhlainn, now Dowling, Doolin, Five Matches, 202200, N127012,
148622, N57631, 198281

Muinter Arrachtain, Harrington, One Match, 119300 (Colla)

Muinter Conrui, Conry, King, Five Matches, 157485, 271391, 44513, 218112,
170847

Domhnall Mor, son of Tadhg Taillte, O'Kelly, Very large DF21 cluster

UI BRIUN AI

O'Connor, Four Matches, 193578, 178768, 155422, MacDermott, Two Matches,
171696, N71588

UI BRIUN BREFFNEY

O'Rourke, Six Matches, 67651, 133193, N105692, H1730, 144806, 126218,
O'Reilly, Two matches 110716 (314.2), 91903

UA DUBHCHONNA

Downey Two DF5 Downing matches (161348) (187591)

5 Doolin's DF5 202200, N127012, 148622, N57631, 198281

Ua Mongain Mongan One example S5488 (N17039)

O'Ruaidhre, Rogers one S5488 Rogers (115854)

O'Cormaic Cormack or McCormack Two Clan Colla DF21 matches 253386 and 278906



All of the following pedigrees are taken from

THE TRIBES AND CUSTOMS HY-MANY, COMMONLY CALLED O'KELLY'S COUNTRY,
TRANSLATED FROM THE BOOK OF LECAN, A MANUSCRIPT IN THE LIBRARY OF THE ROYAL IRISH ACADEMY ;
WITH A TRANSLATION AND NOTES, BY JOHN O'DONOVAN.

I will look at the various Ui Maine branches with a view to finding S5488 matches and checking downstream SNP's and Genetic Distance

Starting with CLANN CERNAIGH we find the following matches with the unique Ui Maine S5488 signature

443955 Michael O'Loughlin,
210550 John F. Cullen
406631 Pleasant H. Kennedy
218112 Lucas Malachi Conry,
44513 King (Conroy)
Patrick Conlin,
N126262 Jacob Fanning, 3EDN4
173456 Lionel Ewen Noel McLaughlin
324600 Conlon
205682 Sheehan

Note that I am only showing one example of individual names here but there are multiple examples of some names

Remarkably of the Nine surname branches of CLANN CERNAIGH Seven of these are represented by the S5488 Ui Maine signature

If we do some Genetic distance comparisons between the above the following have tested to 111 markers

443955 Michael O'Loughlin
210550 John F. Cullen
N126262 Patrick Conlin
44513 King (Conroy)

The genetic distance from O'Loughlin to Cullen at 111 markers is 18 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

The genetic distance from O'Loughlin to Conlin at 111 markers is 17 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

The genetic distance from Conlon to Cullen at 111 markers is 18 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

This shows a remarkable consistency which is the pattern amongst the various S5488 branches which indicates that these are genuine pedigree matches however because any of the rest of the matches above have not tested to 111 markers then this is a provisional 8th Century date for CLANN CERNAIGH

If we look at 44513 King (Conroy) compared to the other 111 marker matches we find the following

The genetic distance from King (Conroy) to Cullen at 111 markers is 15 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1200 years ago

The genetic distance from King (Conroy) to Conlen at 111 markers is 16 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1300 years ago

Again we find the same type of consistency which all points to a Common Big Ancestor consistent with the Ui Maine pedigree

THE CLANN CAIRPRI CRUIM.

Cairpri Crom had one son, namely, Cormac.

Cormac had two
sons, viz.,

Eoghan Finn and Eoghan Buac.

From Eoghan Finn, the Northern Ui Maine are descended, and

From Eoghan Buac, the Southern Ui Maine.

Eoghan Finn had four sons, namely, Dicholla, Fithchellach, Maelanfaidh,
Scannlan,

THE CLANN CERNAIGH HERE.

Connagan, son of Cernach, son of Ailell, son of Cernach, son of Coscrach, son of Fidhchellach, son of Dicholla, son of Eoghan Finn.

Because we have Seven out of Nine surnames associated with Clan Cernaigh with the S5488 signature this represents without doubt a real bloodline

Here is the pedigree from Colla Da Chrioch to Clan Cernaigh

Colla Da Chrioch 4th Century AD -> Bresal -> Dallan -> Lughaidh -> The two Eoghains

Connagan, son of Cernach, son of Ailell, son of Cernach, son of Coscrach, son of Fidhchellach, son of Dicholla, son of Eoghan Finn

This shows nine generations from Colla Da Chrioch to Clan Cernach which giving around three generations per hundred years brings us to around the Seventh Century which is consistent with the genetic distances shown between the S5488 Ui Maine people shown above at 111 markers

More to follow

RobertCasey
02-18-2017, 12:35 AM
Robert, thanks for that. For anyone interested here are the links to two very interesting lectures on the O'Briens at GGI 2016.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp-1bfxaXYs (includes a bit at the end from Conor O'Brien - Baron Inchiquin)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoNNHRWIXQ0

I was there at this Genetic Genealogy Ireland conference and presented as well. Dennis O'Brien, Dennis Wright and myself are the admins for the L226 project. All three of us were at this conference giving presentations. Conor watched the Barrymore presentation and is willing to give any necessary relative approval for testing the remains of some of Brian Boru's male descendants. He is quite interested in helping Dennis O'Brien with YDNA research on Brian Boru's line. There were a lot of high quality YDNA presentations at this conference - Maurice Gleason does a very good job of getting interesting speakers every year.

Dennis O'Brien has driven this testing but is not real active in the L226 Activity Feed or this forum. So I am just trying make others aware of his research. There is a lot of interest of which YSNPs are associated with the Brian Boru line. It is very surprising that there are around ten other branches under L226 that have O'Briens that can not be descendants of Brian Boru since the YSNP testing results are very distant to the chain of YSNPs associated with Brian Boru's line. Many of these lines have genetic distance of seven or less at 67 markers - but can not be related to Brian Boru's line since these other branches are much older than Brian Boru's chain of YSNPs. In fact, when I sort all the lowest genetic distance from the L226 signature that have been YSNP tested, I was shocked to find a whopping 80 % error in simplistic genetic distance matching methodology. YSNPs really matter in this time frame - YSTRs are just not reliable in predicting relatedness without extensive YSNP testing.

Also, I am really amazed that parallel mutations are so numerous under L226 (and probably with other similar aged haplogroups). For 391, there are 19 branches in the L226 haplotree with 391 (11>10) and 7 branches with 391 (11>12). Submissions having these values are 45 with 391 (11>10) and 13 with 391 (11>12). This is with only 78 % charted, so the number of branches resulting parallel mutations will go even higher as more can be charted. So just for what has been charted to date, there are 24 parallel mutations of just 391. For other YSTRs here are the parallel mutations found: 393 - 7; 390 - 16, 19 - 7, 391 - 24, 385a - 6, 385b - 19. Most of the earlier branches under L226 do not have any early YSTR mutations associated with the branches that would greatly reduce the numbers of parallel mutations. Around half of the branches under L226 have no YSTR mutation associated with the branch. There is one large exception of 481 (22>23) that covers 13 branches which starts at ZZ34_1 which is prior to Brian Boru but in his string of YSNP mutations from L226 to present.

Leitir Fura
02-18-2017, 08:14 AM
If ignorance in how to communicate was a subject at university you Oneillabu would have a Masters in it. You should be renamed 'Oneillabu of the Big Ego'

With that said the only problem with the Erc - Oenghusa tale that supposedly leads to Clan MacInnes is that...

1) At that time (6th century) a name was only handed on to a son... e.g. Niall son of Oenghusa... His son would have been XXX son of Niall
2) Clan names did not come into existence until the 11th century and there were more highly likely candidates for the origins of the name of the clan than the only evidence being an account written in circa 13th century, supposedly from an 8th century document that no longer exists. To add to this the account details are obviously fictitious if anyone cares to do some work on them e.g. in the number of birlinns listed that a purported Cinel Oenghusa had to keep - if you calculate the numbers involved / numbers each carried / time to build / access to timber etc on Islay - with it being nigh on an impossibility.... This leads to the conclusion that it is simply an origin tale. (Not to say Fergus and King Erc did actually exist)
3) There is no genetic evidence remaining on Islay, Kintyre or points further north, until Argyle proper and Morvern, of any MacInnes link either name wise or genetically, or of any MacInnes line as one might have expected. This also supports the evidence that the origin account of Clan MacInnes is only a tale. That is not to say that the L720 in a number of MacInnes's from Morvern did not come from Dal Riata or even the line of Erc as you suggest, but it was only small number (or even only one initially) as Clan MacInnes project also suggests.
4) If there was a migration to Morvern of any bloodline as your over simplify and are assuming there is no record of it and no evidence to suggest it so your wild leap is nothing more than that.. a wild leap and another assumption... not FACT at all.

You yourself state ....

"Somerled’s Father is given as Gillebride of Clan Angus so he was effectively of the same line as Clan Mac Aonghuis (McInnes) and is actually recorded as leading Clan McInnes against the Viking’s,

Where did this come from..???? It is the first I have read or heard that Gillebride was of Clan Angus, or is this another twisted version of your own making???.

The original account has the MacInnes chief having died and the clan selecting Somerled to lead them against the Vikings... (viz - the salmon story, also supported by the bee story). There is no suggestion, or evidence, (that I am aware of or others more distinguished than me or you) that he was of their bloodline. Old John MacInnes the renowned Gaelic historian must have a wry smile on his dial in his grave about now, as many of their bloodlines were different also, hence the odd L720 MacInnes line like myself and others from, Morvern but on a small number.

If you are so good at 'facts' how do you account for the above and then dismissing outright all of a leading geneticists work on the genetics of Somerled. I know who I would rather accept and it isn't you.... So 'Oneillabu of the Big Ego' ... and Peter... I wish you both luck ..... I have better things to do with my life that all of this BS

CillKenny
02-18-2017, 10:47 AM
It is very surprising that there are around ten other branches under L226 that have O'Briens that can not be descendants of Brian Boru since the YSNP testing results are very distant to the chain of YSNPs associated with Brian Boru's line. Many of these lines have genetic distance of seven or less at 67 markers - but can not be related to Brian Boru's line since these other branches are much older than Brian Boru's chain of YSNPs.

Robert, given how important genealogies were at the time many other groups probably knew that they connected to Brian Boru's line further back in history and may have been able to adopt the name when it came time to adopt a surname. I have looked at other groups in the same terms - what % of tested men under a particular SNP share the name. I think it is useful but we need to be cautious due to self selection.

oneillabu
02-18-2017, 01:16 PM
If ignorance in how to communicate was a subject at university you Oneillabu would have a Masters in it. You should be renamed 'Oneillabu of the Big Ego'
Its interesting how you are using universities as an analogy of how ignorant I am because universities tend to be staffed by liberals who promote group think and these liberals usually shout down or demonise anyone that dares to voice an independent opinion which is exactly what I am doing.

You are free to think what you like or to believe in whatever research you like because there is plenty of it out there, you believe that Clan McInnes are not related to Clan McDonald fine, there are L720 McDonalds and L720 McInnes who may disagree with you and they have that right too, personally I really could not give a fiddlers about Somerled, the only reason I am even mentioning him is because all the pedigrees link him to Ireland, if you believe like Peter McDonald that these pedigrees are all fake that is fine also.

One thing I do take exception too is the suggestion that I make things up because if I wrote it down then I obviously read it somewhere, I really have no idea where at the moment but if I come across it again I will post it here.

Incidentally, the only reason I even posted anything regarding your little debate about Somerled with Peter McDonald was in response to smart alec comments he posted about me, I really have no interest beyond that in debating about Somerled

Regarding my big Ego, if that is your definition of voicing an opinion and trying to match surnames to pedigrees using genetic distances to verify their possible authenticity then I guess you can call me an Egotistical Ignorant Paddy who dares to paddle his own canoe rather than sail in the good ship DNA FAKE NEWS

Leitir Fura
02-18-2017, 07:52 PM
Oneillabu of the Big Ego - Talk about not dealing in facts.........One again you make giant leaps and make comments that were never said... Learn to read my friend.

I never said MacInnes was not associated to, or related to many Macdonalds for that matter - (with the names of clans only coming into vogue until the 11th century).... This is the blatant misconstruction of what is actually being said that gets up my nose....

oneillabu
02-18-2017, 10:49 PM
Oneillabu of the Big Ego - Talk about not dealing in facts.........One again you make giant leaps and make comments that were never said... Learn to read my friend.

I never said MacInnes was not associated to, or related to many Macdonalds for that matter - (with the names of clans only coming into vogue until the 11th century).... This is the blatant misconstruction of what is actually being said that gets up my nose....

I can read very well thank you very much, thats why I have hundreds of books and looking at your post shown below it clearly states that the McDonalds and McInnes were not related by blood



The original account has the MacInnes chief having died and the clan selecting Somerled to lead them against the Vikings... (viz - the salmon story, also supported by the bee story). There is no suggestion, or evidence, (that I am aware of or others more distinguished than me or you) that he was of their bloodline.

so I presume you support this statement or you would not have posted it, you certainly make no mention of disagreeing with it indeed you state that you support this view with the comment shown below


If you are so good at 'facts' how do you account for the above and then dismissing outright all of a leading geneticists work on the genetics of Somerled. I know who I would rather accept and it isn't you


Now Letir Fura of the Big ???? please go away and stop annoying me !!!

rms2
02-19-2017, 12:48 AM
All the arguments on this topic make it seem like a joke.

castle3
02-19-2017, 08:09 AM
Ancient claims need treating with a great deal of caution. Here's one example:

Gildas claimed the Picts set sail from Scythia* & were blown by gales onto the coast of Ulster. They tried to settle there, but the local tribe said: "We can give you good counsel. There is another island, not far from ours, to the eastward, which we often see at a distance. Go thither & obtain settlements. If opposed, we'll help you." According to Gildas, these settlers arrived with no women, so the Scots offered them some of theirs! Gildas then explains about the Dalreudini & their language. If you remove the mythology, you're left with a far more logical reason for the tribes of Argyll sharing a language with their Ulster neighbours: it was the language of trade in that region. Gildas' theory rings alarm bells for most scholars when reading his simplistic yarn, yet some slavishly believe every word he wrote.

On a slightly different tack: I've seen works quoting Ptolomey's maps as proof of various theories. One scholar mentioned the Picts arriving in Scotland 'from the south'. A modern researcher would look at the current map of Britain & might take this to mean Northumberland & Cumbria. However, one of Ptolomey's maps shows Scotland placed at right-angles to northern England, meaning the south could be somewhere such as Belgium or the Netherlands!

Bede was largely writing about places he'd never visited & was thought to be basing much of his 'knowledge' on tales told to him by travellers. Once again, his works are treated with a reverence they don't always deserve.

As I've droned on about in previous posts, Scottish clan histories are riddled with inaccuracies, origin myths & legends. I imagine Irish surnames are similarly affected. The influence of outsiders such as Normans & others has been hugely over-stated. I find it useful to try & find which haplogroup represents the mainstream for each Scottish surname, then seeing which group the chiefly lines fit into. It's a smoother ride if the chief is via the mainstream, for obvious reasons!

To conclude, we desperately need aDNA to find something that more closely resembles the truth. Scientists have recently discovered a Pictish skeleton in north-east Scotland**. Hopefully, aDNA from that, plus other Scottish projects, will help us.

* Some believe Gildas thought Scythia was in Scandinavia, while others thought he was referring to a land bordering the Black Sea. Even this 'gem' is contentious!

** Google: Daily Telegraph Pict Black Isle Skeleton. They reconstructed the chap's face. Very interesting.

RobertCasey
02-19-2017, 04:13 PM
Robert, given how important genealogies were at the time many other groups probably knew that they connected to Brian Boru's line further back in history and may have been able to adopt the name when it came time to adopt a surname. I have looked at other groups in the same terms - what % of tested men under a particular SNP share the name. I think it is useful but we need to be cautious due to self selection.

The other lines listed can not share a common ancestor that first used the O'Brien surname (due to diversity of surnames under these branches and estimated ages of these branches):

Y5610 - 23 (this Brian Boru's line)
DC69 - 1 (earliest large branch of L226)
DC63 - 7 (belong to an early starburst of branches long before surname usage)
DC25 - 3 (belong to an early starburst of branches long before surname usage)
DC28 - 1 (belong to an early starburst of branches long before surname usage)
DC50 - 2 (old branch off of FGC5628 - definitely not genealogically related)

DC36 - 12 (this is a branch off of DC33) - so this group could actually be Brian Boru
descendants if DC33 becomes O'Brien dominated. DC33 could definitely
has the potential to be part of the Brian Boru line, therefore, DC36 is
possible branch of the royal O'Brien line.

Unfortunately, DC33 is an unstable branch that can only be tested via NGS testing
and I recently discovered a major Kennedy branch matching one of the DC33
NGS testers. So it would take some substantial testing of DC33 to get DC36 into
the royal O'Brien fold. - Hey motivation for the DC36 testers to help solve the
upper limit and breadth of the royal O'Brien line.

There are also eight more O'Briens that are only partially tested and
could land into several different branches. Plus there are probably
a few more that have not YSNP tested at all and do not match any
of the signatures associated with tested lines.

But there are six lines that have no chance of belong to the royal line.

Royal line (Y5610) - 23
DC36 (maybe) - 12
Not related - 15 (from six genealogically unrelated lines)
Total charted - 50

Part of trunk - 8 (actual placement unknown due to partial YSNP testing and
no prediction of branches based on signatures of tested)

oneillabu
02-20-2017, 06:13 PM
All the arguments on this topic make it seem like a joke.

Agreed, and this also apples to most other topics on this forum, after over three years of posts not one single fact has been established only baseless claims and counter claims. The only thing that has been established is the age of DF21 in Ireland and also its downstream S5488 both of which are over 4000 years old and this was mainly thanks to Queens University in Belfast for publishing the results.

So we have M222 Niall which has been virtually ruled out by later SNP research, Ui Maine DF49 which looks to be Welsh in origin, a handful of Clan Chieftains who had the courage to test such as O'Carroll Ely and the O'Donaghue Mor both of whom who tested different branches of DF21, an excellent study by the McCarthy project which found that the McCarthy Mor was most likely from the 314.2 branch of DF21 and various other unproven claims.

Testing of ancient remains or is the only way to prove beyond doubt the various blood lines however I seriously doubt that the will to do this exists, we were promised a whole raft of testing of ancient remains by Trinity College over two years ago and none of these have materialised, I suspect the hand of liberal political correctness in this because Trinity College is a bastion of liberalism, a Radio show called Talking History held a program discussing the Celts a few years ago in which various professors from Trinity and elsewhere discussed this topic, the end result being a declaration that there is no such thing as a Celt and it is simply an ancient term for a Beardy Fellow.

They had Dan Bradley from Trinity DNA department on the show as a token voice, he was only allowed to speak for about 30 seconds in which he tried to mutter that there are certain DNA patterns that show a common Celtic heritage however he was quickly drowned out by a warning that "We need to be careful not to marginalise other people by claiming that such a thing as a common Celtic ancestry exists" So this is what we are up against, just look at the way that the discovery of DF21 on Rathlin Island was spun in the media

The Guardian "Irish DNA originated in Middle East and eastern Europe"

The Daily Mail "Irish people originate from the MIDDLE EAST"

The Irish Examiner " Origin of Irish people has links to Middle East"

The Irish Times "Ancient Irish had Middle Eastern ancestry"

Now people who can claim an ancestry over Four Thousand years where they currently live is a very big thing, this is the time frame when most ancient Civilisations began to emerge, just remember that only 150 years ago we were using Candles and Oil lamps and travelled on horseback so the discovery of DF21 from over 4000 years ago was a major find.

Did anyone post an article such as "Many Irish Clans can trace their ancestry over 4000 years in Ireland" of course not, they simply would not be allowed to print such a thing, if you read many of the articles on the Rathlin find you will see that DF21 YDNA is not even mentioned and neither is L21 for that matter and its connection to Bell Beaker peoples even though the Rathlin skeletons were in a Beaker burial mound.

I really have no interest in arguing with you or anyone else on this forum, it is a complete waste of time, I argued with you for many posts on the Egyptian Coptic Church connection to Ireland (in which I was right) and also with you and others on the age of DF21 (in which I was also right) however once you try to conduct any form of research, instead of having a meaningful discussion you get drowned out by the usual suspects who simply will not accept anything other than their own biased opinions which usually have no basis in fact such as the assertion by Dubhtach that my own L720 DNA was due to a Scottish Gallowglass NPE which was completely refuted by 1000 year old matches to other people with variations of the O'Neill surname.

I will continue to post here because I created this thread however I do not wish to interact with your or any of the usual suspect so kindly keep your smart alec comments to yourself unless you intend to contribute something meaningful.

RobertCasey
02-20-2017, 09:09 PM
I will continue to post here because I created this thread however I do not wish to interact with your or any of the usual suspect so kindly keep your smart alec comments to yourself unless you intend to contribute something meaningful.

Oneillabu - Could you comment on my more unique approach looking at surviving surname percentages in the present AND having one firm genealogy associated with Brian Boru. My assumption is that any branch with a lot more than 50 % of any surname within each YSNP branch probably have a common ancestor who first used the surname (in this case O'Brien). Almost half of the L226 O'Briens appear to be descendants of Brian Boru. Another roughly 25 % are not related and belong to six different O'Brien genetic clusters that can not be descendants of Brian Boru (or related to the other five lines). The last 25 % are DC36 which may and may not be related but need more testing to firm up.

rms2
02-20-2017, 09:19 PM
. . .

I really have no interest in arguing with you or anyone else on this forum, it is a complete waste of time, I argued with you for many posts on the Egyptian Coptic Church connection to Ireland (in which I was right) . . .

Proclaiming yourself right does not make it so. There is no evidence Monophysites ever founded a church in Ireland, and since the Copts were and are Monophysites who rejected the Council of Chalcedon and the famous Tome of St. Leo, if they were in Ireland we'd know about it.



I will continue to post here because I created this thread however I do not wish to interact with your or any of the usual suspect so kindly keep your smart alec comments to yourself unless you intend to contribute something meaningful.

I will post whatever I wish wherever I wish. However, like I said, the arguments here make this topic look like a joke. It certainly looks that way to me, so you can rest at ease. I probably won't be participating in it.

Moderator
02-20-2017, 10:53 PM
All members are reminded to keep on topic and to refrain from personal attacks.

If this reminder is not heeded, sanctions will follow.

oneillabu
02-26-2017, 05:46 PM
Oneillabu - Could you comment on my more unique approach looking at surviving surname percentages in the present AND having one firm genealogy associated with Brian Boru. My assumption is that any branch with a lot more than 50 % of any surname within each YSNP branch probably have a common ancestor who first used the surname (in this case O'Brien). Almost half of the L226 O'Briens appear to be descendants of Brian Boru. Another roughly 25 % are not related and belong to six different O'Brien genetic clusters that can not be descendants of Brian Boru (or related to the other five lines). The last 25 % are DC36 which may and may not be related but need more testing to firm up.

Hi Robert, sorry about the delay in posting a reply, I do not have much time lately for any kind of research. I would say you are definitely on the right track, very similar to the McCarthy study in which they looked at all the different DNA types with the McCarthy surname and compared them to the given McCarthy pedigree and any matching surnames that are from the same pedigree, they then eliminated each DNA type one at a time until they came up with the most likely candidate that corresponded with the pedigree and these surnames and established that this was DF21 / 314.2.

It is very important to look at genetic distances to try and ascertain the time frame to the oldest common ancestor, you should be ideally looking at around a GD of 12 to 14 at 111 markers to bring you back to the root pedigree of Brian Boru in the middle of the Tenth Century. According to the Geneology I found on the internet (link below) Brian Boru had numerous Brothers so quiet a few of them would have left issue, do you know if any of these are associated with different surnames other than O'Brien, if they are then you need to find examples of these within the Genetic Distance given above.

Marcán macCennétig,
Abt of Terryglas;
Lachtna mac Lorcain;
Órlaith íngen Cinnétig;
Donnucain mac Lorcain;
Anluan of Thomond;
Mathgamain macCennetig, Munster;
Eichtigern of Thomond;
Dub mac Cennétig
Finn mac Cennétig

There is also quiet a link between the Ui Neill both Southern and Northern and the O'Briens, for instance Brian Boru's first Wife was Souther Ui Neill and his Second Wife was of the Uí Fiachrach Aidhne, his Daughter Bebhinn Married Flaithberthach Ui Neill. I will do a post on this connection sometime in the future because it would be beneficial to both of our different lines of research

https://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Boru-High-King-of-Ireland/6000000002043263223

Peter MacDonald
03-09-2017, 03:06 AM
Hi Robert, sorry about the delay in posting a reply, I do not have much time lately for any kind of research. I would say you are definitely on the right track, very similar to the McCarthy study in which they looked at all the different DNA types with the McCarthy surname and compared them to the given McCarthy pedigree and any matching surnames that are from the same pedigree, they then eliminated each DNA type one at a time until they came up with the most likely candidate that corresponded with the pedigree and these surnames and established that this was DF21 / 314.2.

It is very important to look at genetic distances to try and ascertain the time frame to the oldest common ancestor, you should be ideally looking at around a GD of 12 to 14 at 111 markers to bring you back to the root pedigree of Brian Boru in the middle of the Tenth Century. According to the Geneology I found on the internet (link below) Brian Boru had numerous Brothers so quiet a few of them would have left issue, do you know if any of these are associated with different surnames other than O'Brien, if they are then you need to find examples of these within the Genetic Distance given above.

Marcán macCennétig,
Abt of Terryglas;
Lachtna mac Lorcain;
Órlaith íngen Cinnétig;
Donnucain mac Lorcain;
Anluan of Thomond;
Mathgamain macCennetig, Munster;
Eichtigern of Thomond;
Dub mac Cennétig
Finn mac Cennétig

There is also quiet a link between the Ui Neill both Southern and Northern and the O'Briens, for instance Brian Boru's first Wife was Souther Ui Neill and his Second Wife was of the Uí Fiachrach Aidhne, his Daughter Bebhinn Married Flaithberthach Ui Neill. I will do a post on this connection sometime in the future because it would be beneficial to both of our different lines of research

https://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Boru-High-King-of-Ireland/6000000002043263223

oneillabu,

Looking forward to reading your next post!!!

oneillabu
03-09-2017, 07:39 PM
oneillabu,

Looking forward to reading your next post!!!

Here's a mad idea, I see that you are L1065+ so why don't you do some research into your own DNA type, I believe that Clan McDonald proclaimed this as the DNA of the Dalriada Kings however recent thinking seems to be leaning more towards Scottish Pictish in origin. Maybe you will be the one that solves this mystery by actually researching the different L1065 SNP branches, matching them to Irish surnames which are Munster in origin and looking for clusters with a Genetic Distance that are credible for a common 6th Century ancestor, maybe you can prove Clan McDonald are right in their assertion that this is indeed the DNA of the Dalriada Kings and be the first on this forum to actually achieve something meaningful. I wish you luck in your quest for your true ancestors.

Peter MacDonald
03-10-2017, 04:17 AM
Here's a mad idea, I see that you are L1065+ so why don't you do some research into your own DNA type, I believe that Clan McDonald proclaimed this as the DNA of the Dalriada Kings however recent thinking seems to be leaning more towards Scottish Pictish in origin. Maybe you will be the one that solves this mystery by actually researching the different L1065 SNP branches, matching them to Irish surnames which are Munster in origin and looking for clusters with a Genetic Distance that are credible for a common 6th Century ancestor, maybe you can prove Clan McDonald are right in their assertion that this is indeed the DNA of the Dalriada Kings and be the first on this forum to actually achieve something meaningful. I wish you luck in your quest for your true ancestors.

oneillabu, I am pretty sure that L1065 has not been proven to be either Irish, Pictish or anything else for that matter at this point in time. As such, I try to avoid creating theories with no basis and publishing them on the internet as fact. I prefer to focus on moving from the known to the unknown one step at a time which I'm currently stuck at the year 1755. Thank you for your well wishes, they are much appreciated.

Muireagain
03-11-2017, 04:34 PM
I thought Bannerman had traced the MacKinnons back to a son of MacBeth, a king of Cenel Loairn and later Alba. And I thought the MacKinnons are L1065+ ?

Peter MacDonald
03-12-2017, 06:13 PM
I thought Bannerman had traced the MacKinnons back to a son of MacBeth, a king of Cenel Loairn and later Alba. And I thought the MacKinnons are L1065+ ?

I am not sure what data Scotlands DNA holds for the MacKinnon's however, the FTDNA MacKinnon project doesn't seem to have much data gathered at this point:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/MacKinnon/default.aspx?section=yresults

Muireagain
03-13-2017, 01:53 AM
The MacKinnon FTDNA maybe a small project. However there is a clear grouping of haplotypes around members that have tested PF5236+ (i.e. L1065+) and I understand the group includes the MacKinnon chief.

rncambron
03-13-2017, 05:05 PM
I thought Bannerman had traced the MacKinnons back to a son of MacBeth, a king of Cenel Loairn and later Alba. And I thought the MacKinnons are L1065+ ?

Citation, ie the reference for the academic publication, please, for Bannerman re the MacKinnons

Peter MacDonald
03-13-2017, 05:39 PM
The MacKinnon FTDNA maybe a small project. However there is a clear grouping of haplotypes around members that have tested PF5236+ (i.e. L1065+) and I understand the group includes the MacKinnon chief.

The current Clan MacKinnon Chief is Madam Anne Gunhild MacKinnon of MacKinnon.

http://www.themackinnon.com/leadership.html

Muireagain
03-13-2017, 08:22 PM
I found out about Steer and Bannerman opinion in Sellar's essay "Highland Family Origins", in 'The Middle Ages in the Highlands', Inverness Field Club, 1981, p. 105-6.

Sellar is drawing on "Late Mediaeval Monumental Sculpture in the West Highlands", Streer & Bannerman, Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland, 1977, p. 105.

I believe the crux of Bannerman argument (based Sellar retelling) is the 1970s discovery of an inscription on the tomb marker of Gille-Brigde MacKinnon, which Sellar informs us was "+ HIC ICAET. FINGONE. MAC CARMAIC. ET FIN/LAID MAC. FINGONE. ET EOGAN." The multiple generations named conform with that of the MacKinnon pedigree in MS1467, given here:

Niall m. Gille Brighde m. Eogan m. Gille Brighde m. Old Eoghan m. Finlay m. Finnghuine from whom are the MacKinnons m. Cormac m. Airbheartach m. Murchadh m. Feachar Og m. MacBeth.

Those in bold are deemed by Bannerman to confirmed by this grave marker.

Also mentioned by Sellar is Cormac m. Airbheartach who MacFirbis tells us (under the MacMillan pedigree): "Cormaic mic Airbeartaigh reamraieth a se an tairbertach sin do aitreabh da threibh deg i. Fionnlochlannach i. Greagraidh na ngaisgeathach das comainim Muile agus Tir no Tire aodha agus Cribhinis, no Craobhinis"

Hence Cormaic mic Airbeartaigh is an Aire Tuise (a Lord of Precedence) in lands ruler over by Norway, i.e. lord of homesteads within the lands of the Greagraidh na ngaisgeathach (Isle of Mull), the land of descendants of Aodh (Isle of Tiree) and Tree Island (Isle of Iona). And so thought to be a real person.

If L1065 does not represent Dal Riada, what else does? The MacKenizes, MacLean, MacKennedy, Clan Little and Clan Elliot are L513, however they share their branch of L513 with the Maguires of Fermangh, a Airgialla people. (I note an Airgiallan people were noted as allies of Cenel Loairn.) While the Cameroons are MC14 and so related to families of Southern Ireland. I don't think their is any option other than the Dal Riada being L1065?

Muireagain
03-15-2017, 02:47 AM
A more provocative question: looking at the small MacDougall DNA project, the one MacDougall from Lorne looks as if he is DF27+.

The MacDonald DNA project has identified the MacIans of Glencoe as being DF27+. If memory services me correctly the R1a MacDonald are so far only from Clan Donald North. While the MacIans of Glencoe are representative of Clan Donald South. Could Somerled have been DF27 (it seems possible that the O'Neills of Ulster and Douglases of Galloway are also DF27+) ?

(Mackinnon chief in question is Lachlan Og (died circa 1600), his descendant (from a cadet branch) reports that he matches the DNA of the present chief of Clan MacGregor, who I understand in L1065+.)

corner
03-15-2017, 03:39 PM
looking at the small MacDougall DNA project, the one MacDougall from Lorne looks as if he is DF27+.

The MacDonald DNA project has identified the MacIans of Glencoe as being DF27+.Any idea what downstream subclade of DF27 the MacDougall from Lorne and the MacIans of Glencoe are? I hope they might join the FTDNA DF27 and Subclades project:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b-df27/about

Muireagain
03-15-2017, 11:14 PM
The Clan Donald, USA, Website associates Glencoe MacDonalds (MacIan) with R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z272 > BY907 > FGC14113

see: https://clandonaldusa.org/index.php/dna-layout/13-dna-project/85-dna-bigy

"An interesting variation on the half brother issue arises from discovery that one of our Glencoe MacDonald reference point sources who can directly trace his line to a MacDonald born in Glencoe and who died in Glencoe in 1730, a descendent of the youngest son of the Glencoe chief in 1745, and a third Glencoe descendant all turned out to be R1b in their pure paternal descent rather than R1a like Somerled. We historically know that Iain Fraoch, the root of the Glencoe MacDonald line was the result of an irregular union between Angus Og and the daughter of the local McEnruig chief at about the time that Angus Og had been granted control over Glencoe by Robert the Bruce. It clearly was a politically convenient union which was undoubtedly strongly supported by her father as well as Angus Og; Angus Og recognized his son, granted him the lands historically held by his maternal grandfather, and that son of irregular union was ultimately buried in Iona. The point on which we fail to focus is the probable subsequent children of the chief’s daughter by existing Glencoe men. She undoubtedly would have been considered quite a “catch” since she had borne the son of the overlord of the district and came from the line of the local chief. This could have easily resulted in a series of Celtic half brothers who were raised with Iain Fraoch and ultimately became the surviving line."
https://clandonaldusa.org/index.php/dna-other-ancestry

The MacDougall from Lorne has not taken an SNP test.

(I find the Mac Dhughail of Morar claim descent from Clanranald, was the original R1a MacDougall (used to justify the Somerled claim) a member of Clanranald?)

Muireagain
03-21-2017, 10:15 PM
I used the SNP predictor at http://www.nevgen.org/ to identify the haplogroup of MacDougall from Lorne. The predictor came up with R1b L21>DF13> BY2868, an SNP shared with a MacDowell. Hence it seems the MacDougall from Lorne is not going to be DF27, instead BY2868. Which doesn't seem to be share by current MacDonald testees. (I did notice that Z16891 was split between Irish MacDonells/MacDonalds and Dowells from Colonial USA.)

The interesting thing about the MacDowell DNA Project is that it is dominated by M222 testees, including those identifying themselves with Galloway. Two of the M222 testees have tested their SNPs and are from a branch of Sil Lugdach mac Setna of Cenel Conaill. Hence suggesting that Fergus of Galloway was also of Sil Lugdach mac Setna of Cenel Conaill and that Galloway was ruled over by Cenel Conaill from Donegal.

They are not the only Scottish family with a possible Dal Cuinn origin:
The Grierson of Lag seem to be a branch of the O Maoileagain, who are found in mid-Antrim.
The chief of Clan Robertson (I believe) is M222+ and those that have tested their SNPs are from a branch of Clann Conchobhair of Cenel Eogain.
While the neighboring Clan Ferguson have also said to have tested as M222+ and are also from Clann Conchobhair of Cenel Eogain.

Muireagain
04-12-2017, 06:19 PM
Struggling with the fact that the MacKinnons are PF5236 and not S764 or S691 which are the dominant branches of S744. The assumption that MacFinnon's Cormac is a match for Cormac m. Airbheartach is based on the idea of overlapping geographic areas.

I found the MacQuarries also overlapped the area of their said ancestor Cormac m. Airbheartach areas. Taking the first three R1b MacQuarries whose DNA match, but not ancestor (one has an ancestor from from Mull) in the MacQuarries DNA project, the predictor at http://www.nevgen.org/ to identifies their haplogroup as S764.

I wonder if descendants of Clann Cormac m. Airbheartach are the Gaelic families from Innse Gall region and not mainland families?

castle3
04-12-2017, 08:45 PM
MS1467 is a doc that is thought by many to be highly suspect. See David Sellar's 'Highland Family Origins - Pedigree Making & Pedigree Faking' . He is well worth reading as he casts doubt on many origin-legends & myths. He specifically mentions MS1467 as being unreliable.

Muireagain
04-12-2017, 09:00 PM
Which part of the MS1457 suspect? Is the dubious portion that half that concerns the descendants of Cormac m. Airbheartach and not the Siolach Ghoirridh half?

My thought is there is also a problem with the inherited Anglo understanding of the segmented society of Gaelic Scotland. Victorian seems to have lumped those with shared surnames into one family of the ilk. The Ferguson DNA results clearly show the lie in this, with the implication that the Gaelic segmented society of Scotland was as complicated as that of Gaelic Ireland. Hence the dubiousness of MS1457 may simply be due to the pedigrees are being applied to the wrong families?

castle3
04-13-2017, 06:31 AM
Which part of the MS1457 suspect? Is the dubious portion that half that concerns the descendants of Cormac m. Airbheartach and not the Siolach Ghoirridh half?

My thought is there is also a problem with the inherited Anglo understanding of the segmented society of Gaelic Scotland. Victorian seems to have lumped those with shared surnames into one family of the ilk. The Ferguson DNA results clearly show the lie in this, with the implication that the Gaelic segmented society of Scotland was as complicated as that of Gaelic Ireland. Hence the dubiousness of MS1457 may simply be due to the pedigrees are being applied to the wrong families?

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I wasn't referring to any specific surnames, merely pointing out that there is a lot doubt as to the truth regarding many Scottish surname myths and origin-legends. Several modern authors doubt that the Ulster-Argyll 'invasion' ever took place. Indeed, many believe any influence was probably in the opposite direction. It's been discussed in other posts.
As you rightly state, the Victorians weren't always terribly accurate. Sellar noted that 'Families of undoubted Celtic descent began to claim Norman ancestors'. He went on to say that 'In Gaelic society, a pedigree was a political statement, and not infrequently an exercise in political propaganda. Because antiquity was at a premium, forgery and manipulation, some of it very skilful, became commonplace'.
Skene highlighted the MacKenzies claim of Norman descent, which relied on docs no-one has ever seen! He also highlighted the confusion of the word 'hiberno', which at one time was used to describe Highlanders as well as those of Irish stock.
From memory, William Gillies wrote a paper 'The Invention of Tradition', which I think focused on several Argyll surnames. You rightly noted the Ferguson surname, who had an important presence in Argyll.

Heber
05-05-2017, 11:24 AM
Bart Jackie documented the Ancient Irish Genealogies and Chiefly Lines.
http://pin.it/Mt4Qwty

Here he reviews the Kingship and Landscape of Tara.
review: Edel Bhreathnach (ed), The kingship and landscape of Tara.
https://www.academia.edu/1273933/review_Edel_Bhreathnach_ed_The_kingship_and_landsc ape_of_Tara

oneillabu
06-05-2017, 03:19 PM
Here is a breakdown of the current DF49 project pre M222, I only included people whose surnames I could resolve, I excluded singletons

TOTAL INCLUDED = 117

ENGLISH SURNAMES BOTH NORMAN AND SAXON = 37

SCOTTISH SURNAMES BOTH SCOTTISH AND SCOTTISH NORMAN = 34

IRISH SURNAMES BOTH IRISH AND NORMAN IRISH = 18

WELSH SURNAMES = 10

CONTINENTAL SURNAMES = 18


Here is the breakdown

English Surnames = 23
English Norman surnames = 14

Scottish Surnames = 23
Scottish Norman Surnames = 11

Irish Surnames = 14
Iriish Norman surnames = 4

Welsh Surnames = 10

Continental Surnames = 18

French = 6
Iberian = 4
Sweden = 2
Poland = 2
Germany = 1
Austria = 1
Italy = 1
Holland = 1

Here are the percentages

Britain = 70%
Ireland = 15%
Non Isles = 15%

British plus French accounts for 75% of all matches, this strongly suggests that this is Strathclyde Britain in origin given the bulk of William the Conquerors invasion force consisted of Celtic Britons from Brittany who were of the same Brythonic Celtic stock as the Scottish Strathclyde Britons and their Welsh counterparts, Irish matches are varied with the Madden Kelly cluster strongly matching to Welsh surnames of the Irish Norman Tribes of Galway origin such as Joyce, other Irish names are Carroll, Sullivan, Gallagher, Byrne, O'Dea, Daugherty, McCaffry, McCreary, Trainor and Madden

rms2
06-06-2017, 11:32 AM
YFull's current tmrca estimate for DF49 is 4300 ybp or around 2300 BC. Since Bell Beaker is pretty obviously the original source of L21 in the Isles, if DF49 was born in Strathclyde or anywhere else in the Isles, it must have happened very soon after the Bell Beaker people arrived, because the oldest Bell Beaker burials in Britain date to around 2400 BC. That's a pretty narrow window, and if YFull is underestimating the age of DF49 by a couple of hundred years, then what?

Thank God for ancient y-dna. We can hope for more continental and Isles Bell Beaker results soon that might settle some of these controversies.

I think Olalde et al pretty much put the whammy on the idea that L21 or even DF13 arose in the Isles. It will be interesting to see how much info we get on the various DF13 subclades in the next few years.

castle3
06-06-2017, 12:07 PM
'... the bulk of William the Conquerors invasion force consisted of Celtic Britons from Brittany...'

Not too sure that the bulk were from Brittany. I recall reading that there were approx. 5,800 men in total, with the Bretons estimated at approx. 2,100 men. The 5,800 total included 2,000 cavalry & 800 archers.

oneillabu
06-06-2017, 12:12 PM
YFull's current tmrca estimate for DF49 is 4300 ybp or around 2300 BC. Since Bell Beaker is pretty obviously the original source of L21 in the Isles, if DF49 was born in Strathclyde or anywhere else in the Isles, it must have happened very soon after the Bell Beaker people arrived, because the oldest Bell Beaker burials in Britain date to around 2400 BC. That's a pretty narrow window, and if YFull is underestimating the age of DF49 by a couple of hundred years, then what?
The jury is still out on the place of origin of L21 as indeed the origins of the Celtic tribes in Europe, an Iron age La Tene type sword found in Ireland that was cited as proof of an Iron age La Tene migration was actually recently found in Bronze in Ireland which means that the origin for that sword type may actually be the Isles so there is so much we do not know yet. I don't think there are any people that disagree with the Bell beaker origin of L21 at this stage which was reinforced by the Cist Rathlin DF21 find. Personally I think L21 is over 5000 years old and DF21 is around 4500 years old




Thank God for ancient y-dna. We can hope for more continental and Isles Bell Beaker results soon that might settle some of these controversies.

Not from Trinity College by the looks of things, it is now three years ago since they announced that they had funding for a number of tests on ancient remains, maybe they are not getting the results they were looking for and are keeping the results to themselves, thank God for Queen's University in Belfast who published the Rathlin results, we would probably be still in the dark only for them.

rms2
06-06-2017, 12:14 PM
Not too sure that the bulk were from Brittany. I recall reading that there were approx. 5,800 men in total, with the Bretons estimated at approx. 2,100 men. The 5,800 total included 2,000 cavalry & 800 archers.

And I wouldn't bet on all the L21 Bretons in William's army being descended from the Britons who fled to Armorica from the Irish in the immediate post-Roman period. It's likely that when the Britons began arriving in Armorica the Bretons were already not much different from their relatives right across the Channel.

jdean
06-06-2017, 12:31 PM
YFull's current tmrca estimate for DF49 is 4300 ybp or around 2300 BC. Since Bell Beaker is pretty obviously the original source of L21 in the Isles, if DF49 was born in Strathclyde or anywhere else in the Isles, it must have happened very soon after the Bell Beaker people arrived, because the oldest Bell Beaker burials in Britain date to around 2400 BC. That's a pretty narrow window, and if YFull is underestimating the age of DF49 by a couple of hundred years, then what?

Thank God for ancient y-dna. We can hope for more continental and Isles Bell Beaker results soon that might settle some of these controversies.

I think Olalde et al pretty much put the whammy on the idea that L21 or even DF13 arose in the Isles. It will be interesting to see how much info we get on the various DF13 subclades in the next few years.

Personally I think Z39589 in general will turn out to be relativity recent in the Isles but we'll probably have to wait for a deal more aDNA to come through before we'll know either way.

However DF49's distribution (edit: by this I mean DF49xM222 obviusly) is best described as spread very thinly all over the shop but we do seem to be picking up more than our fair share in North and NE Europe. Somebody asked the other day if there were non Isles L21 subclades, which I'm sure there are in a lot of L21 branches but we have a good one currently shared by one gent of recent Polish ancestry and a Swede defined by ZP241 (http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?name=ChrY%3A6595457..6595457) which is one SNP downstream of ZP162. These two have a GD of 18 @ 37 loci (24 if you use the hybrid modal) and ZP241 is only 4 or 5 SNPs downstream of DF49 depending on if you count ZP18 or not (to honest you probably shouldn't count ZP20, 21 or 18)

Heber
06-06-2017, 12:37 PM
Not from Trinity College by the looks of things, it is now three years ago since they announced that they had funding for a number of tests on ancient remains, maybe they are not getting the results they were looking for and are keeping the results to themselves, thank God for Queen's University in Belfast who published the Rathlin results, we would probably be still in the dark only for them.

The authors of Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome, (Cassidy and Martiniano) are from Trinity College and the principal correspondent Professor Dan Bradley is from Trinity College and the samples came from his lab. Queens University Belfast also made a great contribution.
Martiniano also authored the recent Iberian Bell Beaker paper, The Population Genomics Of Archaeological Transition In West Iberia.
I understand they have up to 20 samples from Ireland in the pipeline.
They are also starting a very interesting multi discipline (Genetics, Archealogy, Linguistics, History, Culture, Humanities) project called CITIGEN.
http://www.citigen.org/about/

Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome
Lara M. Cassidya,1, Rui Martinianoa,1, Eileen M. Murphyb, Matthew D. Teasdalea, James Malloryb, Barrie Hartwellb, and Daniel G. Bradleya,2

Authors
Lara M. Cassidy
aSmurfit Institute of Genetics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland;
Rui Martiniano
aSmurfit Institute of Genetics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland;
Eileen M. Murphy
bSchool of Geography, Archaeology and Palaeoecology, Queen's University Belfast, Belfast BT7 1NN, Northern Ireland
Matthew D. Teasdale
aSmurfit Institute of Genetics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland;
James Mallory
bSchool of Geography, Archaeology and Palaeoecology, Queen's University Belfast, Belfast BT7 1NN, Northern Ireland
Barrie Hartwell
bSchool of Geography, Archaeology and Palaeoecology, Queen's University Belfast, Belfast BT7 1NN, Northern Ireland
Daniel G. Bradley
aSmurfit Institute of Genetics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland;


http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.abstract

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/10/134254

rms2
06-06-2017, 12:40 PM
The jury is still out on the place of origin of L21 as indeed the origins of the Celtic tribes in Europe . . .

We don't know the exact place on the continent where L21 was born, but I think the jury has already hanged the Isles-origin idea.

No one that I know of ever thought the Celtic tribes originated in the Isles.



I don't think there are any people that disagree with the Bell beaker origin of L21 at this stage which was reinforced by the Cist Rathlin DF21 find. Personally I think L21 is over 5000 years old and DF21 is around 4500 years old . . .

If you are right, then there is no way either L21 or DF21 was born in the Isles. I personally doubt L21 is that old, but a tmrca of about 4500 or 4600 years wouldn't surprise me.

Cassidy et al was like an appetizer. Olalde et al was the main course.

oneillabu
06-06-2017, 02:49 PM
Where are all these tests that were promised years ago then?

Maybe they are afraid of being made look very foolish if they cannon find ancient DF49/M222 in Ireland that pre-dates Niall, they have conducted an incredible propaganda campaign which is frequently regurgitated by sites such as Irish Central, it is even mentioned in Irish Children's books but where is the follow up research from Trinity? This study took place in 2004 and is still being quoted as a recent study even though this is five years before the discovery of L21 let alone DF49, why are they not looking at the same surnames that they based their 17 marker study on and breaking them down into SNP clusters? Better to keep everything vague and shrouded in mystery rather than getting concrete answers which may completely discredit their claim. The origin of M222 looks very much like it is in the Strathclyde Scottish region with names such as Caldwell and Dalton being the source of this SNP.

Having listened to the participation on a radio show that was discussing the Celts by Trinity college professors among others who came to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a Celt and it is simply an ancient term for a Beardy Fellow then forgive me for feeling skeptical of anything that emulates from that particular Center of learning, and give me places of study such as the University of Leicester or Queen's University any day, just because people from Trinity signed their name to the paper that was published does not mean that it would have been published without Queen's University input.



https://www.familytreedna.com/landing/matching-niall.aspx

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0120_060120_irish_men.html

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/niall-took-no-hostages-43038522-237784201

Muireagain
06-06-2017, 02:52 PM
If M222 (which includes the Dal Cuinn (i.e. S660 sub-branch) and maybe Dal Fiatach and Luigne) has been removed from the list of DF49 testees. What about the DF49 members that are FGC6545 whose surnames point to them being Ui-Maine?

Is the Morgan testee labelled as Welsh. His family is from north Co. Louth, were this surname in Irish is O'Muireagain and a local pedigree makes them Ui Tuirtre of Clan Colla. His terminal SNP is shared with another Morgan from Armagh City, were the a local Armagh pedigree makes them O'Morgain, i.e., the same O'Muireagain family of Ui Tuirtre of Clan Colla. Because of the Anglicization of Irish surnames into acceptable Imperial names, if is impossible to identify the correct origin of a British surname.


Here is a breakdown of the current DF49 project pre M222, I only included people whose surnames I could resolve, I excluded singletons

TOTAL INCLUDED = 117

ENGLISH SURNAMES BOTH NORMAN AND SAXON = 37

SCOTTISH SURNAMES BOTH SCOTTISH AND SCOTTISH NORMAN = 34

IRISH SURNAMES BOTH IRISH AND NORMAN IRISH = 18

WELSH SURNAMES = 10

CONTINENTAL SURNAMES = 18


Here is the breakdown

English Surnames = 23
English Norman surnames = 14

Scottish Surnames = 23
Scottish Norman Surnames = 11

Irish Surnames = 14
Iriish Norman surnames = 4

Welsh Surnames = 10

Continental Surnames = 18

French = 6
Iberian = 4
Sweden = 2
Poland = 2
Germany = 1
Austria = 1
Italy = 1
Holland = 1

Here are the percentages

Britain = 70%
Ireland = 15%
Non Isles = 15%

British plus French accounts for 75% of all matches, this strongly suggests that this is Strathclyde Britain in origin given the bulk of William the Conquerors invasion force consisted of Celtic Britons from Brittany who were of the same Brythonic Celtic stock as the Scottish Strathclyde Britons and their Welsh counterparts, Irish matches are varied with the Madden Kelly cluster strongly matching to Welsh surnames of the Irish Norman Tribes of Galway origin such as Joyce, other Irish names are Carroll, Sullivan, Gallagher, Byrne, O'Dea, Daugherty, McCaffry, McCreary, Trainor and Madden

Muireagain
06-06-2017, 03:28 PM
The origin of M222 looks very much like it is in the Strathclyde Scottish region with names such as Caldwell and Dalton being the source of this SNP ???????? Because of the Irish names such as Caldwell and Dalton ????

castle3
06-06-2017, 03:28 PM
I'm afraid a lot of origin myths & legends for Scottish & Irish surnames were taken as gospel. Some seem to have thrown science into that particular mix & tried to make the mythology 'work'. Not surprisingly, the jigsaw pieces don't always fit as they were supposed to!

Muireagain
06-06-2017, 03:52 PM
I'm afraid a lot of origin myths & legends for Scottish & Irish surnames were taken as gospel. Some seem to have thrown science into that particular mix & tried to make the mythology 'work'. Not surprisingly, the jigsaw pieces don't always fit as they were supposed to!

Can you justify what you are saying? For I find it is the Angliczation that is falsehood.

Did you know within the M222 project we have identifies branches of Dal Cuinn, i.e., Ui Neill and Ui Briuin as being form DF49/S474 > Z2980 > Z2976 > DF23 > Z2961 > M222 > DF106 > DF104 > DF105(S660)
The Ui Maine surnames are from DF49/S474 > Z2980 > Z2976 > DF23 > Z2961 > FGC6540 > FGC6562 > FGC6545
The O'Muireagain of Ui Tuirtre of Clan Colla are DF49/S474 > FGC11210 > FGC11163 > ZZ33 > 7935412-A-T > Y55

While the Anglo Norman settle of Scotland seems very false:
The Littles and MacKennedys of Carrick share SNP A8 hence predicted to have share a common ancestor 651 ybp ~ 1309 AD.
Now the above families share with Glendinnings and Vans SNP A3, no date predicted.
Again the above families share with the MacLean, Drummonds, Elliots, SNP L193 with a predicted age of 2116 ybp ~ 256 BC.
Further out are the MacKenizes sharing SNP FGC13499 with a predicted age of 3429 ybp ~ 1469 BC.
And the Maguires of Fermangh sharing SNP S5668 with a predicted age of 3680 ybp ~ 1720 BC.
Hence families that claim to be Hungarian or Norman have the same yDNA origin as their neighboring Gaels.

As for L1065 they seem to be Dal Raida (who according to Bede and other 7/8th century sources came from Ireland.)
(L1065 splits into FGC10125 and S744)
FGC10125 gives the Campbells who never claim any descent from Fergus Mor
(S744 splits into those that claim descent from Fergus Mor)
S691 The MacGregors, Bohannon, the Buchanans, a Matheson sept from Carbeth?, Robertson and Ferguson which I believe are the real family from Atholl (plus Alexanders and Patersons from Argyll? and Hendersons and Ewensons.)
S764 The MacLaren, MacRae, a sept of Ferguson (of Balquidder?), a sept named MacDonald, the MacPhersons of Clan Chattan and a sept of MacSweeny, MacCoys (of Kintyre?) and a sept of Ferguson (of Kilkerran?), Templetowns and a sept of MacFarlanes.
Y17075 The McKinnons plus related sept of MacPherson and possibly some MacQuarries, and the Youngs that trace themselves to a branch of the Lamonts of Cowal.
CTS4931 a sept of Rodgers (of Bute?)
Y15476 a sept of Moores

castle3
06-06-2017, 04:05 PM
Can you justify what you are saying? For I find it is the Angliczation that is falsehood.

Did you know within the M222 project we have identifies branches of Dal Cuinn, i.e., Ui Neill and Ui Briuin as being form DF49/S474 > Z2980 > Z2976 > DF23 > Z2961 > M222 > DF106 > DF104 > DF105(S660)
The Ui Maine surnames are from DF49/S474 > Z2980 > Z2976 > DF23 > Z2961 > FGC6540 > FGC6562 > FGC6545
The O'Muireagain of Ui Tuirtre of Clan Colla are DF49/S474 > FGC11210 > FGC11163 > ZZ33 > 7935412-A-T > Y55

While the Anglo Norman settle of Scotland seems very false:
The Littles and MacKennedys of Carrick share SNP A8 hence predicted to have share a common ancestor 651 ybp ~ 1309 AD.
Now the above families share with Glendinnings and Vans SNP A3, no date predicted.
Again the above families share with the MacLean, Drummonds, Elliots, SNP L193 with a predicted age of 2116 ybp ~ 256 BC.
Further out are the MacKenizes sharing SNP FGC13499 with a predicted age of 3429 ybp ~ 1469 BC.
And the Maguires of Fermangh sharing SNP S5668 with a predicted age of 3680 ybp ~ 1720 BC.
Hence families that claim to be Hungarian or Norman have the same yDNA origin as their neighboring Gaels.

As for L1065 they seem to be Dal Raida (who according to Bede and other 7/8th century sources came from Ireland.)
(L1065 splits into FGC10125 and S744)
FGC10125 gives the Campbells who never claim any descent from Fergus Mor
(S744 splits into those that claim descent from Fergus Mor)
S691 The MacGregors, Bohannon, the Buchanans, a Matheson sept from Carbeth?, Robertson and Ferguson which I believe are the real family from Atholl (plus Alexanders and Patersons from Argyll? and Hendersons and Ewensons.)
S764 The MacLaren, MacRae, a sept of Ferguson (of Balquidder?), a sept named MacDonald, the MacPhersons of Clan Chattan and a sept of MacSweeny, MacCoys (of Kintyre?) and a sept of Ferguson (of Kilkerran?), Templetowns and a sept of MacFarlanes.
Y17075 The McKinnons plus related sept of MacPherson and possibly some MacQuarries, and the Youngs that trace themselves to a branch of the Lamonts of Cowal.
CTS4931 a sept of Rodgers (of Bute?)
Y15476 a sept of Moores

I wasn't suggesting every clan/surname's history was based on mythology, merely that some were. David Sellar's 'Highland Family Origins - Pedigree Making & Pedigree Faking' highlighted some of the problems, as did Skene. Sellar decried those who claimed a Norman ancestor when an indigenous root was more likely. Luckily more researchers are adopting a more rigorous approach to genealogy & using, as you appear to be, DNA evidence.
I've discussed the fact in other posts that several modern historians believe influence went from Argyll etc to Ulster & not vice-versa, however that's another debate! aDNA from several Scottish sites should be available by September, and the data should be fascinating.

Muireagain
06-06-2017, 04:22 PM
I wasn't suggesting every clan/surname's history was based on mythology, merely that some were. David Sellar's 'Highland Family Origins - Pedigree Making & Pedigree Faking' highlighted some of the problems, as did Skene. Sellar decried those who claimed a Norman ancestor when an indigenous root was more likely. Luckily more researchers are adopting a more rigorous approach to genealogy & using, as you appear to be, DNA evidence.
I've discussed the fact in other posts that several modern historians believe influence went from Argyll etc to Ulster & not vice-versa, however that's another debate!

I would agree there are problems with our understanding of the pedigrees in MS1467 and claims that certain Cowal families being O'Neill (and with who the Ulster O'Neills are).

The major problem I have is accessing the original Scottish Gaelic material. There was and are numerous pedigree material (http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/91596/1/91596.pdf), however other than Sellar I find little analysis or transcriptions of the material.

After reviewing the L1065 families, I am left wondering about what is within the Scottish Gaelic tradition, i.e., within the original material, and how it describes the connections between the L1065 families. yDNA testing can show then the material is correct. The pedigrees in the Black book of Clanranald included a comment that the MacKenizes and MacLeans might be related. This seems true, however not at the generation mentioned within this text.

castle3
06-06-2017, 04:32 PM
I would agree there are problems with our understanding of the pedigrees in MS1467 and claims that certain Cowal families being O'Neill (and with who the Ulster O'Neills are).

The major problem I have is accessing the original Scottish Gaelic material. There was and are numerous pedigree material (http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/91596/1/91596.pdf), however other than Sellar I find little analysis or transcriptions of the material.

After reviewing the L1065 families, I am left wondering about what is within the Scottish Gaelic tradition, i.e., within the original material, and how it describes the connections between the L1065 families. yDNA testing can show then the material is correct. The pedigrees in the Black book of Clanranald included a comment that the MacKenizes and MacLeans might be related. This seems true, however not at the generation mentioned within this text.

Thanks for the link. It's a paper I've read with interest in the past. I'll PM you shortly.

oneillabu
06-16-2017, 09:09 PM
Here is a breakdown of the current DF21 project S5488 SNP, I only included people whose surnames I could resolve, I excluded singletons and I only included one example of a surname for instance if there were 10 Kelly’s I only included one

TOTAL INCLUDED = 156

ENGLISH SURNAMES NORMAN SAXON AND CORNISH = 23

SCOTTISH SURNAMES BOTH SCOTTISH AND SCOTTISH NORMAN = 44

IRISH SURNAMES BOTH IRISH AND NORMAN IRISH = 83

WELSH SURNAMES = 4

CONTINENTAL SURNAMES = 2


Here is the breakdown

English Surnames = 17
English Norman surnames = 6

Scottish Surnames = 34
Scottish Norman Surnames = 10

Irish Surnames = 76
Iriish Norman surnames = 7

Welsh Surnames = 4

Continental Surnames = 2

Sweden = 1
Finland = 1

Here are the percentages

Irish = 53%
Scottish = 28%
English = 15%
Welsh = 3%
Non Isles = 1%

Irish plus Scottish accounts for 81% of all matches, this strongly supports the Rathlin 2 ancient DNA result that S5488 was present in Ireland 4000 years ago, there is no indication of a continental origin for this SNP and the Scottish matches strongly indicate a large Dalriada element especially given that the older clusters are Irish and many of the Scottish surnames are given as ancient Irish in origin.

blue lander
07-24-2017, 08:39 PM
Remarkably of the Nine surname branches of CLANN CERNAIGH Seven of these are represented by the S5488 Ui Maine signature

If we do some Genetic distance comparisons between the above the following have tested to 111 markers

443955 Michael O'Loughlin
210550 John F. Cullen
N126262 Patrick Conlin
44513 King (Conroy)

The genetic distance from O'Loughlin to Cullen at 111 markers is 18 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

The genetic distance from O'Loughlin to Conlin at 111 markers is 17 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

The genetic distance from Conlon to Cullen at 111 markers is 18 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

This shows a remarkable consistency which is the pattern amongst the various S5488 branches which indicates that these are genuine pedigree matches however because any of the rest of the matches above have not tested to 111 markers then this is a provisional 8th Century date for CLANN CERNAIGH

If we look at 44513 King (Conroy) compared to the other 111 marker matches we find the following

The genetic distance from King (Conroy) to Cullen at 111 markers is 15 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1200 years ago

The genetic distance from King (Conroy) to Conlen at 111 markers is 16 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1300 years ago

Again we find the same type of consistency which all points to a Common Big Ancestor consistent with the Ui Maine pedigree


Hi All,

My Collins ancestors came from right outside of Athlone on the Connacht side. They had been farming there since at least the mid 1700's. I'm trying to determine what "kind" of Collins's they were. Did they come up Shannon from Limerick or Cork or were they "indigenous" Collins's of Clan Cernaich of Ui Maine.

I want to order a Y-DNA test to figure this out, but I can't afford the Big-Y test. But if it sounds like I'd need to get the Y-111 test and an additional SNP test to see if my terminal Haplogroup is S5488. Is there a cheaper, more targeted test I could take?

Peter MacDonald
07-30-2017, 11:43 AM
Take the S5488 SNP test through YSEQ for $17.00

TigerMW
07-30-2017, 03:05 PM
Hi All,

My Collins ancestors came from right outside of Athlone on the Connacht side. They had been farming there since at least the mid 1700's. I'm trying to determine what "kind" of Collins's they were. Did they come up Shannon from Limerick or Cork or were they "indigenous" Collins's of Clan Cernaich of Ui Maine.

I want to order a Y-DNA test to figure this out, but I can't afford the Big-Y test. But if it sounds like I'd need to get the Y-111 test and an additional SNP test to see if my terminal Haplogroup is S5488. Is there a cheaper, more targeted test I could take?

SNPs like S5488 are quite old so testing for SNPs one at a time becomes a step at a time, lengthy process to get where you want to go. This is why I recommend 111 STRs. If you have good matches at 111 STRs and they have done extensive, like Big Y, you can learn from them and skip right a couple of very youthful SNPs to test for. Fortunately, many R1b-S5488 people have done Big Y so odds are good.

If 111 STRs is not in the cards, another option is FTDNA's $119 R1b-S5488 SNP Pack. It has somewhere around 140-150 SNPs downstream of S5488 (including S5488) so it is very cost-effective. These are a collection of SNPs from Big Y and other testing discoveries.

You might look for sales promotions too. We know there will be a Holiday Season promotion at the least.

Still, Big Y is SNP discovery testing. It is expensive but if you think you might every want to discover your own line of SNPs, biting the bullet is worth it. Of course, it fits you into the existing tree as it discovers your novel SNPs.

Tasha
08-15-2017, 01:47 AM
My husband is L21 and his surname is Connors

Rebecca905
10-04-2017, 12:54 AM
My father is DF25. We are Moore.
I am testing more SNPs to learn more. Red hair and green eyes are all through our family.

TimC
01-22-2018, 04:18 PM
The MacDonald chiefs are R1a which has led them to the conclusion that their first ancestor, Somerled, who fought the Vikings, was a Viking descendant and not a Celtic descendant (patrilineal line) per the legends.
As far as the Clansmen being R1b, that accounts for about 75%. About 25% are R1a.
There is more than just one Viking line in the MacDonalds. Almost all have the "Scottish Mutation", L176.2, but a few do not.

angscoire
01-23-2018, 05:41 PM
The MacDonald chiefs are R1a which has led them to the conclusion that their first ancestor, Somerled, who fought the Vikings, was a Viking descendant and not a Celtic descendant (patrilineal line) per the legends.
As far as the Clansmen being R1b, that accounts for about 75%. About 25% are R1a.
There is more than just one Viking line in the MacDonalds. Almost all have the "Scottish Mutation", L176.2, but a few do not.


The many MacDonald Chiefs (all but one) can be compellingly linked through a combination of genealogy and DNA to the apparent great x3 grandson of Somerled , Lord John (c.1310-1386). Other individuals from Clans that by tradition also descend from Somerled via other lineages , have DNA results that lend some legitimacy to this claim . I am one of them .Ultimately these things can only be definitively proved by analysing Somerleds ,or his close descendants, remains .... which will likely never happen.

Somerled fought Scots as well as Norse ! Indeed he died making war on them. He married a daughter of a Norse king and likely had Gael-Norse heritage himself regardless of whether he was R1a or not. He was largely an opportunist , using violence as well as diplomacy , and allied himself to whomever he believed could increase his power and prestige at any given time .

angscoire
01-31-2018, 01:56 PM
My father is DF25. We are Moore.
I am testing more SNPs to learn more. Red hair and green eyes are all through our family.

Many Muir/Moore's are under DF25 , and also downstream under DF5 and CTS3655 , including my Scottish Muir ancestor .

redeyednewt
05-14-2018, 04:13 PM
Does anyone know if any of the Irish, Scots, Britton, or Welsh cheiftans/kings were RL21 R-DF-13? Or where that haplogroup and subclade originated?

Dubhthach
05-16-2018, 08:52 AM
Does anyone know if any of the Irish, Scots, Britton, or Welsh cheiftans/kings were RL21 R-DF-13? Or where that haplogroup and subclade originated?

The O'Conor Don lineage is validated as R1b-M222+ (M222 falls under DF49 and thus DF13), the O'Brien lineage is confirmed as L226+ via testing of Baron Inchiquin (BigY).

oneillabu
05-16-2018, 08:56 PM
Does anyone know if any of the Irish, Scots, Britton, or Welsh cheiftans/kings were RL21 R-DF-13? Or where that haplogroup and subclade originated? The DF21 branch of L21 is the ancient Irish bloodline, there are various Chiefly lines coming from different branches of this 4000 year old Irish DNA type which has been confirmed by the Rathlin Island study,

The O'Donaghue Mor, The McCarthy Mor, The Seven Septs of Laois which included Rory Oge O'More,
The O'Carroll's of Ely, and many more both Irish and Scottish

This DF21 is entirely consistent with the Ancient Irish Sons of Mil pedigree recorded in all the Annals of Ireland which show a number of different branches dating from the period of these Rathlin Island DNA finds that branch out into the various lines of the Chieftains of Ireland

redeyednewt
05-16-2018, 09:27 PM
The DF21 branch of L21 is the ancient Irish bloodline, there are various Chiefly lines coming from different branches of this 4000 year old Irish DNA type which has been confirmed by the Rathlin Island study,

The O'Donaghue Mor, The McCarthy Mor, The Seven Septs of Laois which included Rory Oge O'More,
The O'Carroll's of Ely, and many more both Irish and Scottish

This DF21 is entirely consistent with the Ancient Irish Sons of Mil pedigree recorded in all the Annals of Ireland which show a number of different branches dating from the period of these Rathlin Island DNA finds that branch out into the various lines of the Chieftains of Ireland

OK thanks, do you have links to any of this information or these studies? Or the genealogy of these Irish/Scots, or even Welsh/Brittonic Chieftains? Or who else you are related to if you are YDNA RL-21 Subclade: R-DF13?

I actually do not know that much about any of this as it's not something I am familiar with, do you have any book titles about this subject that are not purely academic? I have nothing against academic studies, but reading an entire book about them is not really that exciting.

I know something about Scots clans but those happened centuries later.

redeyednewt
05-16-2018, 09:48 PM
The O'Conor Don lineage is validated as R1b-M222+ (M222 falls under DF49 and thus DF13), the O'Brien lineage is confirmed as L226+ via testing of Baron Inchiquin (BigY).

OK thanks, so who else falls under the DF13 lineage? Do you have any links to studies or articles about this? Or any book titles that are not purely academic? I have nothing against academic studies, but reading an entire book about them is not really that exciting.

redeyednewt
05-17-2018, 02:00 AM
The O'Conor Don lineage is validated as R1b-M222+ (M222 falls under DF49 and thus DF13), the O'Brien lineage is confirmed as L226+ via testing of Baron Inchiquin (BigY).

Also what do you mean by 'DF49 and thus DF13'? I am not that familiar with subclades, or do you mean that subclade R-DF-13, is a subset subclade of R-DF13?

Dubhthach
05-17-2018, 04:58 PM
M222:
R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > DF49/S474 > Z2980 > Z2976 > DF23 > Z2961 > M222

L226:
R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > ZZ10 > Z253 > Z2534 > ~22280136-C-G > FGC5618 > L226

redeyednewt
05-17-2018, 06:43 PM
M222:
R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > DF49/S474 > Z2980 > Z2976 > DF23 > Z2961 > M222

L226:
R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > ZZ10 > Z253 > Z2534 > ~22280136-C-G > FGC5618 > L226

OK what exactly does this mean? Please explain instead of just listing YDNA haplogroups and subclades, and subsets of subclades.

oneillabu
05-18-2018, 10:51 AM
OK thanks, do you have links to any of this information or these studies? Or the genealogy of these Irish/Scots, or even Welsh/Brittonic Chieftains? Or who else you are related to if you are YDNA RL-21 Subclade: R-DF13?

I actually do not know that much about any of this as it's not something I am familiar with, do you have any book titles about this subject that are not purely academic? I have nothing against academic studies, but reading an entire book about them is not really that exciting.

I know something about Scots clans but those happened centuries later.

In the case of both the O'Donaghue Mor, and the O'Carroll of Ely these are paper pedigrees that have existed in the family for many generations

regarding the Seven Septs of Laois, this is based on surnames given in the ancient pedigrees for this collection of Septs which are remarkably reproduced in a branch of DF21, the legendary Chieftain Rory Oge O'More was descended from the Seven Septs of Laois and sure enough there are a number of people with the surname Moore (O'More) in this cluster,

The McCarthy DNA project carried out a detailed study which was probably the best of its kind and came to the conclusion based on Genetic Distances and matching surnames given in the McCarthy pedigree that the line of the McCarthy Mor was DF21, you will probably find this study on the McCarthy project website.

There are also some Cornish such as the ancient Nankivell family and some Welsh, sadly research into the Celtic Royal lines in Wales has been neglected and the focus has been mostly on Ireland and Scotland

My own branch of DF21 is called S5488 and is nearly as old as DF21 itself, there are strong indications that one of the Bell Beaker skeletons from Rathlin Island tested by Queens University was S5488 so this may be treated as an entirely different very early branch of DF21.

In the Sons of Mil pedigrees from the Ancient Irish Annals their origin is given as Spain and the earliest Bell Beaker finds came from the Iberian peninsula, I have uploaded my own DNA results from four different companies to Gedmatch and I ran it through the Eurogenes Ethnicity calculator using the Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors test here are the results

FTDNA most likely origin = Irish / French Basque / Norwegian / West Norwegian

My Heritage most likely origin = Irish / French Basque / Norwegian / West Norwegian

Ancestry most likely origin = Irish / French Basque / Southwest English / Norwegian

23 and Me most likely origin = Irish / French Basque / West Scottish / North Swedish

Of these 23 and Me best reflects my known ancestry however you will notice that Basque is common to all and recent studies of Basque DNA show that the Basque's most likely come from a common ancestry from around 5000 years ago.

The area of French Basque is adjacent to the Celtiberian territories so this confirms that the ancient Milesian Myth origin is entirely plausible, indeed the arrival of L21 to Britain and Ireland would probably have had different points of origin, we know from the Amesbury Down (Wiltshire, England) L21 find dating from 4500 years ago that it arrived in Britain before Ireland, also there are other similarities between the Irish Q Celtic and Iberia and also a very early form of Ogham was found in Iberia, too many similarities to be just coincidence,

To date DF21 is the only confirmed branch of early Irish DNA and in my opinion this will not change however the promise of testing of early Irish remains has not materialised, probably due to the complete liberalisation of places like trinity college who are now busy trying to assign non European origins to the early inhabitants of the Isles to push the liberal agenda that we are all immigrants,

this disgusting behaviour that we have seen with the so called cheddar man study in Britain is all we can expect for the foreseeable future and even archaeology will be twisted to suit the liberal narrative being pushed as we have seen with the Viking muslim claim from Upsalla University in Sweden which was shown to be completely bogus

redeyednewt
05-18-2018, 06:54 PM
In the case of both the O'Donaghue Mor, and the O'Carroll of Ely these are paper pedigrees that have existed in the family for many generations

regarding the Seven Septs of Laois, this is based on surnames given in the ancient pedigrees for this collection of Septs which are remarkably reproduced in a branch of DF21, the legendary Chieftain Rory Oge O'More was descended from the Seven Septs of Laois and sure enough there are a number of people with the surname Moore (O'More) in this cluster,

The McCarthy DNA project carried out a detailed study which was probably the best of its kind and came to the conclusion based on Genetic Distances and matching surnames given in the McCarthy pedigree that the line of the McCarthy Mor was DF21, you will probably find this study on the McCarthy project website.

There are also some Cornish such as the ancient Nankivell family and some Welsh, sadly research into the Celtic Royal lines in Wales has been neglected and the focus has been mostly on Ireland and Scotland

My own branch of DF21 is called S5488 and is nearly as old as DF21 itself, there are strong indications that one of the Bell Beaker skeletons from Rathlin Island tested by Queens University was S5488 so this may be treated as an entirely different very early branch of DF21.

In the Sons of Mil pedigrees from the Ancient Irish Annals their origin is given as Spain and the earliest Bell Beaker finds came from the Iberian peninsula, I have uploaded my own DNA results from four different companies to Gedmatch and I ran it through the Eurogenes Ethnicity calculator using the Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors test here are the results

FTDNA most likely origin = Irish / French Basque / Norwegian / West Norwegian

My Heritage most likely origin = Irish / French Basque / Norwegian / West Norwegian

Ancestry most likely origin = Irish / French Basque / Southwest English / Norwegian

23 and Me most likely origin = Irish / French Basque / West Scottish / North Swedish

Of these 23 and Me best reflects my known ancestry however you will notice that Basque is common to all and recent studies of Basque DNA show that the Basque's most likely come from a common ancestry from around 5000 years ago.

The area of French Basque is adjacent to the Celtiberian territories so this confirms that the ancient Milesian Myth origin is entirely plausible, indeed the arrival of L21 to Britain and Ireland would probably have had different points of origin, we know from the Amesbury Down (Wiltshire, England) L21 find dating from 4500 years ago that it arrived in Britain before Ireland, also there are other similarities between the Irish Q Celtic and Iberia and also a very early form of Ogham was found in Iberia, too many similarities to be just coincidence,

To date DF21 is the only confirmed branch of early Irish DNA and in my opinion this will not change however the promise of testing of early Irish remains has not materialised, probably due to the complete liberalisation of places like trinity college who are now busy trying to assign non European origins to the early inhabitants of the Isles to push the liberal agenda that we are all immigrants,

this disgusting behaviour that we have seen with the so called cheddar man study in Britain is all we can expect for the foreseeable future and even archaeology will be twisted to suit the liberal narrative being pushed as we have seen with the Viking muslim claim from Upsalla University in Sweden which was shown to be completely bogus

Hi thank you for the detailed reply. It is very helpful. I have friends from Spain and they told me how I look very Basque or from that region of Spain. I have never been to País Vasco or any of the Basque regions in France, but when I went to Barcelona I had people think I was from there.

What is the DNA test from 23andMe like compared to those of Ancestry and Family tree? Do they have a genealogy database?

Also, which Welsh kings or rulers are L21? What has happened with the Cheddar man?

oneillabu
05-18-2018, 10:31 PM
Hi thank you for the detailed reply. It is very helpful. I have friends from Spain and they told me how I look very Basque or from that region of Spain. I have never been to País Vasco or any of the Basque regions in France, but when I went to Barcelona I had people think I was from there.

What is the DNA test from 23andMe like compared to those of Ancestry and Family tree? Do they have a genealogy database?

I suppose of the four companies FTDNA is the most useful because of their YDNA testing however they all have various flaws,

with FTDNA the My Origins test is not as detailed as some of the others and they include trace results which for some people may be useful if it matches to some Family lore or tradition of an ancestor from a certain group,

my main problem with this is even though they say that this result may be simply background noise they do not give the customer the option to exclude the result, in my own case they say I am 1% Japanese or Korean or some such nonsense and then the list me as 99% European which is extremely annoying, the other three companies show me as 100% European which confirms this is simply noise,

I looked at the European estimates of 100 of the matches to my DNA and around 70% of these are showing between 95% and 99% European so this practice is widespread, the more sceptical of us may speculate that this is a deliberate attempt to dilute European ethnicity, They list me as 97% British and Irish but do not give a breakdown of this between the two Islands. the remaining 2% is shown as South European

With Ancestry once again they have these low confidence regions and these are once again used to reduce the overall percentage even though they say they are low confidence so once again the customer should be allowed to choose the one's to allow or exclude, in my own case there is a 2% South Europe result which matches the FTDNA result so I would be including this and excluding the rest if I had the option to do this, the rest is shown as Ireland Scotland and Wales and a region they call Great Britain

This region is another annoying thing about Ancestry and is simply another marketing ploy, in my case when I click on this Great Britain region it says

Your DNA shows that you have ancestry from Great Britain and links you to these specific regions:

Munster Ireland

Now anyone with a basic knowledge of geography would know that this is ridiculous so why do they have it included unless it is simply a marketing gimmick

With My Heritage they also have what they term as English DNA however in the explanation they have for this region they say the following

the dominant “original” British ethnic group is dominated by the English, of course, and includes the Celtic heirs, as some of Welsh, Scottish, and Irish descent respectively have settled in modern-day England.

So what they are saying is that people who moved to England from the Celtic lands their DNA Is somehow transformed into what they term as English? of course this is nonsense, I have seen results from two Brothers with an Irish surname varying wildly with one Brother having a large majority of English and the other Brother having a large majority of Irish Scottish Welsh DNA, more marketing rubbish

With 23 an Me they give my DNA as 92% Irish and the rest what they call Broadly Northwestern European for which they give the following explanation

Northwestern Europeans are represented by people from as far west as Ireland, as far north as Norway, as far east as Finland, and as far south as France. These countries rim the North and Baltic Seas, and have been connected throughout much of history by those waters.

This to me makes far more sense than trying to break down your DNA into unsubstantiated low confidence regions

this is actually reflected when I uploaded my raw data to Gedmatch from each company because as I explained the 23 and Me result most accurately reflects my know Ancestry

I believe there is a lot of Iberian L21 that is yet to be discovered so this is an ongoing process, it is a shame that most of this research into L21 is by people who volunteer their time for free and the so called centres of learning no longer are no longer interested in European heritage unless of course it is to try and debunk it.

Hope this was some help to you

redeyednewt
05-20-2018, 10:59 AM
I suppose of the four companies FTDNA is the most useful because of their YDNA testing however they all have various flaws,

with FTDNA the My Origins test is not as detailed as some of the others and they include trace results which for some people may be useful if it matches to some Family lore or tradition of an ancestor from a certain group,

my main problem with this is even though they say that this result may be simply background noise they do not give the customer the option to exclude the result, in my own case they say I am 1% Japanese or Korean or some such nonsense and then the list me as 99% European which is extremely annoying, the other three companies show me as 100% European which confirms this is simply noise,

I looked at the European estimates of 100 of the matches to my DNA and around 70% of these are showing between 95% and 99% European so this practice is widespread, the more sceptical of us may speculate that this is a deliberate attempt to dilute European ethnicity, They list me as 97% British and Irish but do not give a breakdown of this between the two Islands. the remaining 2% is shown as South European

With Ancestry once again they have these low confidence regions and these are once again used to reduce the overall percentage even though they say they are low confidence so once again the customer should be allowed to choose the one's to allow or exclude, in my own case there is a 2% South Europe result which matches the FTDNA result so I would be including this and excluding the rest if I had the option to do this, the rest is shown as Ireland Scotland and Wales and a region they call Great Britain

This region is another annoying thing about Ancestry and is simply another marketing ploy, in my case when I click on this Great Britain region it says

Your DNA shows that you have ancestry from Great Britain and links you to these specific regions:

Munster Ireland

Now anyone with a basic knowledge of geography would know that this is ridiculous so why do they have it included unless it is simply a marketing gimmick

With My Heritage they also have what they term as English DNA however in the explanation they have for this region they say the following

the dominant “original” British ethnic group is dominated by the English, of course, and includes the Celtic heirs, as some of Welsh, Scottish, and Irish descent respectively have settled in modern-day England.

So what they are saying is that people who moved to England from the Celtic lands their DNA Is somehow transformed into what they term as English? of course this is nonsense, I have seen results from two Brothers with an Irish surname varying wildly with one Brother having a large majority of English and the other Brother having a large majority of Irish Scottish Welsh DNA, more marketing rubbish

With 23 an Me they give my DNA as 92% Irish and the rest what they call Broadly Northwestern European for which they give the following explanation

Northwestern Europeans are represented by people from as far west as Ireland, as far north as Norway, as far east as Finland, and as far south as France. These countries rim the North and Baltic Seas, and have been connected throughout much of history by those waters.

This to me makes far more sense than trying to break down your DNA into unsubstantiated low confidence regions

this is actually reflected when I uploaded my raw data to Gedmatch from each company because as I explained the 23 and Me result most accurately reflects my know Ancestry

I believe there is a lot of Iberian L21 that is yet to be discovered so this is an ongoing process, it is a shame that most of this research into L21 is by people who volunteer their time for free and the so called centres of learning no longer are no longer interested in European heritage unless of course it is to try and debunk it.

Hope this was some help to you

Thanks it is helpful. What exactly is happening with the Cheddar man?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5364983/Retired-history-teacher-believes-looks-like-Cheddar-Man.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42939192

oneillabu
05-20-2018, 12:44 PM
Thanks it is helpful. What exactly is happening with the Cheddar man?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5364983/Retired-history-teacher-believes-looks-like-Cheddar-Man.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42939192 It seems that the whole Cheddar man thing was a politically motivated con job with virtually no scientific basis whatsoever

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O38yK1eZx80

redeyednewt
06-08-2018, 08:11 AM
It seems that the whole Cheddar man thing was a politically motivated con job with virtually no scientific basis whatsoever

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O38yK1eZx80

OK thanks.

redeyednewt
06-29-2018, 03:24 AM
Anyone have any more information about them or who they were, or know of any websites with the information about the Irish, Scots, and Welsh/Brittionic Chieftains and early kings who are R1B-L21?

MacUalraig
09-15-2018, 08:26 AM
Scottish clan affairs made the evening news here last night:

Clan Buchanan appoints its first chief since 1681

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45518505

rncambron
09-15-2018, 04:43 PM
He is just a rich guy who could afford a Burke's Peerage researcher and a QC to present a case to the Lord Lyon.His actual descent from the early Chiefs of Buchanan is via two obscure female lines.He does not hold the Y-DNA that denotes descendancy via the male line.

Nibelung
05-29-2019, 12:20 AM
Surprisingly, it's looking slightly possible now that both the Deirgtine (parent family of the Eoganachta and Ui Fidgenti + Ui Liathain) and the earlier Dairine (Corcu Loigde and others) are in origin Irish Type II (CTS4466) and related. However, I've seen elsewhere in this thread that the Dal Fiatach, supposedly the closest relations of the Dairine, who were found nextdoor to them in Ulster on Ptolemy's map, may in fact be M222. Of course there is a famous Ulster-Munster artery in the Ulster Cycle.

So I guess we might (or might not, and assuming we can claim either more distantly) be splitting them? btw there's a little M222 in the Corca Laidhe project, but totally random and evidently missing among the O'Driscolls and O'Learys. CTS4466 in turn has a small presence in North Ireland/Ulster, more of one in Scotland, and a possible origin in Wales.

GogMagog
05-29-2019, 01:58 PM
Aye laddie, like Pringle of Stichhill and Johnston of Johnston;)

IanFitzpatrick
03-03-2020, 08:24 PM
Which line, out of those mapped on this attached tree, is most likely to be the descendants of the Mac Giolla Phádraig Chiefs?

No cheating, based on the tree only.

36635

JoeyP37
03-03-2020, 08:32 PM
Hey, my stepmother's a Fitzpatrick. Figured she was R1b, anyway. I like to know the (theoretical) y chromosome haplogroups of my maternal-line ancestors, and being Irish in origin, there will be a LOT of R1b. My maternal-line great-great-grandmother was the daughter of a Tipperary Ryan and therefore most likely R1b-DF27, while her daughter, my mother's maternal grandmother, was northwestern French R1b-L21, as a distant male-line cousin of hers is part of the Acadia DNA project (her father was from Nova Scotia)

Hodo Scariti
03-12-2020, 04:38 PM
Hello everyone,

just a question: does it exist a Scottish clan heavy in R1b-U152? Or does it exist chieftains with R1b-U152?

Cascio
03-12-2020, 05:32 PM
Hello everyone,

just a question: does it exist a Scottish clan heavy in R1b-U152? Or does it exist chieftains with R1b-U152?

The Scottish West Highlands have more R1b-U152 than the rest of the country.
In Ireland, County Cork (SW Ireland) has the most R1b-U152.

The figures in both countries are very low compared to Northern Italy or Switzerland.

angscoire
07-01-2020, 12:02 PM
Mulreagain,

Unfortunately only a very limited number of MacDougalls have tested their Y DNA through FTDNA. The number of persons with the surname of McDougall don't total a very large number unfortunately. I didn't notice if the current McDougall Chief has tested his Y DNA, if so do you know if he made his results public? Do you have any knowledge of his Y DNA? You probably already know the MacDonald Chief's Y DNA (R1A) type only accounts for a limited amount (20-30%) of the Y DNA of Clan Donald males.

Peter

Great strides have been made over the last couple of years. See link.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/McDougall?iframe=yresults