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oneillabu
12-10-2013, 06:42 PM
This thread is an attempt to carry out a comprehensive analysis of the L21 Celtic bloodlines that may have spawned the various Royal lines from earliest times until the eventual collapse of Celtic society. We will look at existing claimants and weigh up the merits of these based on detailed examination of the evidence presented and also look at any new research of ancient lines based on the latest SNP findings.

MikeWhalen
12-10-2013, 10:46 PM
interesting idea, I hope it works...and lets remember, all you Celtic cousins, to keep the 'heat' level down eh?
:)

Mike

Ian B
12-10-2013, 11:38 PM
This thread is an attempt to carry out a comprehensive analysis of the L21 Celtic bloodlines that may have spawned the various Royal lines from earliest times until the eventual collapse of Celtic society. We will look at existing claimants and weigh up the merits of these based on detailed examination of the evidence presented and also look at any new research of ancient lines based on the latest SNP findings.

In order to verify the various claimants entitlements, won't it be necessary for them to participate? As the result of the "Flight of the Earls" (Wild Geese) the main claimants to past royal titles are now Spanish. Others are spread over western Europe.

Rory Cain
12-11-2013, 06:30 AM
This thread is an attempt to carry out a comprehensive analysis of the L21 Celtic bloodlines that may have spawned the various Royal lines from earliest times until the eventual collapse of Celtic society. We will look at existing claimants and weigh up the merits of these based on detailed examination of the evidence presented and also look at any new research of ancient lines based on the latest SNP findings.

One the DF21 thread we discussed DF21 chiefs and septs and you provided a list which (slightly modified) might be a starter to this thread:
The McCarthy Reagh
The O’Carroll
The McMahon
The O’Sullivan (Beara)
The McGuire
The O’Callaghan
The O’Donaghue Mor
Rory Oge O’Moore (seven septs of Laois)
Lord McDonald of Islay
Lords of Ivowen Ulster O’Neill’s

There are many others such as Clan Colla, Fiach McHugh O’Byrne

Is it your intention that this thread stay broad enough to include clans and septs which have no recognised chief and no claimant at the present time, which is the case with many DF21 (and probably other) septs? What we learn about one sept, with or without a chief, may have a bearing on better understanding their related septs, again with or without a chief. The checkerboard of DNA types in Munster (where many of the above surnames originate) is a case where learning about one may help with another of the same DNA type.

RGM
12-11-2013, 06:53 AM
Lord McDonald of Islay

Pretty sure I remember reading about DNA studies confirming the McDonald and McAllister lineages and I don't think they were L21.

Rory Cain
12-11-2013, 09:23 AM
Pretty sure I remember reading about DNA studies confirming the McDonald and McAllister lineages and I don't think they were L21.

I read some of those too, re the Macdonald chiefs being R1a and their clansmen being R1b, and then oneillabu recruited Lord Macdonald of Islay into the R-DF21 project on the basis of his DF5 test result which makes him L21/DF13/DF21/Z246/DF25/DF5. Yep, not all Macdonald chiefs are DF21 as oneillabu and I have already discussed in another thread. Similarly most O'Neills of Tyrone are not M222+ Ui Niall type, but then being M222_ you would know that already. It makes life interesting, doesn't it?

RGM
12-11-2013, 11:30 AM
I read some of those too, re the Macdonald chiefs being R1a and their clansmen being R1b, and then oneillabu recruited Lord Macdonald of Islay into the R-DF21 project on the basis of his DF5 test result which makes him L21/DF13/DF21/Z246/DF25/DF5. Yep, not all Macdonald chiefs are DF21 as oneillabu and I have already discussed in another thread. Similarly most O'Neills of Tyrone are not M222+ Ui Niall type, but then being M222_ you would know that already. It makes life interesting, doesn't it?

So you're saying the current Chief of the name is participating and has tested positive for DF85? I was unaware of that. I did some looking around and the Clan Donald DNA Project shows the results for four chiefs that are R1a: Iain Godfrey Macdonald of Sleat, Ranald MacDonell of Glengarry, Ranald Alexander MacDonald of Clanranald and Allan Douglas MacDonald of Vallay.

Dubhthach
12-11-2013, 02:29 PM
Where is the suggestion that Fiach Mac Aodha Ó Broin (anglised: Feagh McHugh O'Byrne -- died 1597) was DF21 coming from? From what we can see in public databases the O'Brynes of Leinster along with O'Tools and the Kavanaghs/Kinsella's/McMurrogh's appears to be Z255+ (L159.2+) -- "Irish sea"/Laigin cluster.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Jon
12-11-2013, 05:32 PM
Hi All,

There has been a lot of speculation on L193 (513 A-1) in this regard. Seems to be very much Scotland, heavy in the south-west (Ayrshire/Galloway), but also found in Argyll, Perthshire, Inverness, Moray, and elsewhere. Also a lot in Ireland, mostly in the north, where it might be mostly due to Ulster plantation. But the clade is quite closely related to other sub-groups of 513 (e.g. A-3 and A-2), which are much more widespread throughout Ireland. Being quite young (1000-1500 YBP?) and very prolific in Scotland, there's a chance this could be a royal, or at least landed, line, possibly related to Dalriada, and/or the various British kingdoms (e.g. Rhegged or Strathclyde).

Some have speculated on the line of the Lords of Galloway, which would fit in geographically, and also in terms of approximate time period. They were thought to be 'Gall Ghaidel', i.e. Norse-Gaels from Argyll and the north, where they would certainly have had ties with the Irish Celts.

I'd love to hear any thoughts on L193 and/or L513 and how they might fit in here!

Cheers to all,

Jon

MacUalraig
12-11-2013, 05:55 PM
Hi All,

There has been a lot of speculation on L193 (513 A-1) in this regard. Seems to be very much Scotland, heavy in the south-west (Ayrshire/Galloway), but also found in Argyll, Perthshire, Inverness, Moray, and elsewhere. Also a lot in Ireland, mostly in the north, where it might be mostly due to Ulster plantation. But the clade is quite closely related to other sub-groups of 513 (e.g. A-3 and A-2), which are much more widespread throughout Ireland. Being quite young (1000-1500 YBP?) and very prolific in Scotland, there's a chance this could be a royal, or at least landed, line, possibly related to Dalriada, and/or the various British kingdoms (e.g. Rhegged or Strathclyde).

Some have speculated on the line of the Lords of Galloway, which would fit in geographically, and also in terms of approximate time period. They were thought to be 'Gall Ghaidel', i.e. Norse-Gaels from Argyll and the north, where they would certainly have had ties with the Irish Celts.

I'd love to hear any thoughts on L193 and/or L513 and how they might fit in here!

Cheers to all,

Jon
Hmm I have to say that some of the L193 guys have been talking it up a bit more than it objectively deserves. I can't see any evidence from the discussions on their forum or from the data itself that it should be linked to major nobility or royalty.

MacUalraig

Jon
12-11-2013, 06:17 PM
Fair enough. I am far from being an expert, but I think what is most interesting about L193 is its youth, and its relative frequency with a very specific geographic focal point in the south west. This led to the thinking that there had to have been a significant 'explosion' of the sub-clade in a relatively short time period in a very focussed area, which has led to the speculation as to who/what might have caused it. I accept there is no reason at all for the line to have been royal in any way, but given that back in those days it tended to be those in privileged positions who had the chance to procreate their lines the most successfully, it is at least a possibility. I have no vested interest, I just find the historical aspect so fascinating! Thanks for your thoughts, any others are greatly welcome.

oneillabu
12-11-2013, 10:02 PM
This thread is an attempt to carry out a comprehensive analysis of the L21 Celtic bloodlines that may have spawned the various Royal lines from earliest times until the eventual collapse of Celtic society. We will look at existing claimants and weigh up the merits of these based on detailed examination of the evidence presented and also look at any new research of ancient lines based on the latest SNP findings.

First of all I want to thank everyone that participates in this study that will hopefully shine some light on many of the mysteries of our Celtic ancestors.

This thread has the potential to become a series of point scoring slanging matches unless we create a structure that must be followed so we need to lay down some basic ground rules at the start.

1: It will be assumed that all postings will begin with the following statement “In my opinion”, this is because all postings will be of equal value and importance and unless a person has some absolute irrefutable proof then no one persons arguments will hold sway over the others unless the consensus of opinion agrees with this person. There is no need to type “In my opinion” because it will be assumed that the post begins with this.

2: We will create a number of steps to examine each case and this structure must be adhered to avoid confusion

3: Only one case can be dealt with at a time to avoid confusion and we will only move on to the next case when we are satisfied we have exhausted all avenues of research with the current one or else we are completely deadlocked and making no further progress.

Here are some suggested steps we need to follow

Step one – What is the origin of the subject, are there entries in any of the early annals to support this origin and are there any written pedigrees to further support this. In this step we will collectively look for every scrap of information on the subject and examine these thoroughly and make a finding based on this examination of the accumulated data.

Step two - Based on the findings made in step one we will then decide what should be the most likely DNA type for the subject, this will be a simple Celtic L21 type or non Celtic type decision. If the finding is non-Celtic then because this is an L21 forum then there is no point in proceeding any further however if there are a few different viewpoints on the subject then we will proceed to the next step to try to resolve this.

Step three – we will look at the DNA of as many persons as possible with the subject’s surname and look for other surname matches to each person with a view to finding supportive evidence for each DNA type that is reflected in the pedigrees, in other words matches to surnames that are given as descended from the same line, we then examine genetic distances to see if they support the timeframe of the given pedigree and eliminate candidates leaving only the most suitable remaining.

Step four – we will make a decision on the top three most likely candidates for descent from this line and evaluate the pro’s and cons of each and make a decision on the most likely according to the weight of evidence in their favour of each.

If anyone disagrees with the above or has anything they feel should be added or omitted please post your suggestions.

We also need to decide on our first test subject, I propose the Lord of the Isles Macdonald’s however I am open to suggestions so please post your own preferences, it will help to formulate a list of likely test subjects.

Thanks again
oneillabu

Kopfjäger
12-11-2013, 11:50 PM
So you're saying the current Chief of the name is participating and has tested positive for DF85? I was unaware of that. I did some looking around and the Clan Donald DNA Project shows the results for four chiefs that are R1a: Iain Godfrey Macdonald of Sleat, Ranald MacDonell of Glengarry, Ranald Alexander MacDonald of Clanranald and Allan Douglas MacDonald of Vallay.

Yes, the chiefs of Clan Donald belong to a Norwegian variety of R1a1.

Rory Cain
12-12-2013, 12:29 AM
So you're saying the current Chief of the name is participating and has tested positive for DF85? I was unaware of that.

Huh? DF85? I said nothing of the sort. The current Chief of the name? Nope, I never mentioned him either. I feel that something is going on when someone misquotes me. I have no idea who oneillabu has "participating". That's his business. I referred only to Macdonald of Islay and his DF5 result, which are out in the public domain, except for also acknowledging that other Macdonald chiefs (including the Chief of the name) are R1a. I would appreciate it if you don't shoot me for being the DF5 messenger in Lord Macdonald of Islay's case. Oneillabu recruited him. I saw his results in the DF21 project after oneillabu recruited him and that's the extent of my involvement with him.

As for the argument that you want to have with me, I already had that argument with oneillabu when he listed the name "Lord of the Isles" amongst DF21+chiefs. I felt that was over-reaching. You may have noticed that I changed "Lord of the Isles" to "Lord Macdonald of Islay" on his list in order to avoid the sort of argument that you now want to have with me. Been there, done that. I argued what you are arguing now, so you're preaching to the converted. If you have any problems with Lord Macdonald of Islay being who he says he is, that's a matter to take up with him; or his DF5 result being accurate, that's a matter to take up with the lab. I am only too aware that paper pedigrees can be fabricated and that the lab gets results wrong. So if you don't mode I prefer to stay out of any fight and just be a spectator here.

RGM
12-12-2013, 04:02 AM
Huh? DF85? I said nothing of the sort. The current Chief of the name? Nope, I never mentioned him either. I feel that something is going on when someone misquotes me. I have no idea who oneillabu has "participating". That's his business. I referred only to Macdonald of Islay and his DF5 result, which are out in the public domain, except for also acknowledging that other Macdonald chiefs (including the Chief of the name) are R1a. I would appreciate it if you don't shoot me for being the DF5 messenger in Lord Macdonald of Islay's case. Oneillabu recruited him. I saw his results in the DF21 project after oneillabu recruited him and that's the extent of my involvement with him.

As for the argument that you want to have with me, I already had that argument with oneillabu when he listed the name "Lord of the Isles" amongst DF21+chiefs. I felt that was over-reaching. You may have noticed that I changed "Lord of the Isles" to "Lord Macdonald of Islay" on his list in order to avoid the sort of argument that you now want to have with me. Been there, done that. I argued what you are arguing now, so you're preaching to the converted. If you have any problems with Lord Macdonald of Islay being who he says he is, that's a matter to take up with him; or his DF5 result being accurate, that's a matter to take up with the lab. I am only too aware that paper pedigrees can be fabricated and that the lab gets results wrong. So if you don't mode I prefer to stay out of any fight and just be a spectator here.

What argument? I didn't argue anything. I was just trying to clarify what you were saying. I think you're reading way too much into what I said. I'm not here to argue, I'm here to learn.

Who is Lord Macdonald of Islay? I was under the impression that that title belongs to the Chief of the Name. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm not an expert on Clan Donald. I don't want to have an argument, I just want to know who we're talking about and what line he represents.

Rory Cain
12-12-2013, 09:43 AM
What argument? I didn't argue anything. I was just trying to clarify what you were saying. I think you're reading way too much into what I said. I'm not here to argue, I'm here to learn.

Who is Lord Macdonald of Islay? I was under the impression that that title belongs to the Chief of the Name. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm not an expert on Clan Donald. I don't want to have an argument, I just want to know who we're talking about and what line he represents.

OK, I'll take the change of my words "lord Macdonald of Islay" to "Chief of the Name" as totally innocent and unintentional. It makes a world of difference though, as I will try to explain. Mind you, I am not a Macdonald expert either and apologise in advance for any misconceptions of my own. With the annexation to the Crown of the Lordship of the Isles in 1493 and the death of John, the last Lord of the Isles, in 1503 the several different branches of Clan Donald effectively became independent clans. The Lordship of the Isles remains with the Crown and I think HRH Prince Charles may be the present incumbent. Therefore that title has never been revived within Clan Donald, but in 1910 Macdonald of Sleate was recognised as Macdonald of Macdonald, or as you put it, Chief of the Name. In fact I thought that was why you mentioned Macdonald of Sleate's R1a status which I have never denied. Nor his chiefship. I can see now that you thought Macdonald of Islay was Chief of the Name, whereas Sleate is. Perhaps you can see now how a misunderstanding developed. Two totally different men with two totally different haplogroups.

As for who Lord Macdonald of Islay is, I take it from his use of that title that he is their heir to the Macdonalds of Islay. The Macdonalds of Islay pre-date the Lordship of the Isles, and as I understand it, consider themselves the original Macdonald stock from which the Lords of the isles, Sleate, Glengarry and other Macdonald branches descend. I don't know whether that points to an NPE occurring, as is suspected to be the case with the O'Neill of Tyrone dynasty who were apparently M222+ up to a point, then non-M222 afterwards. I would be getting out of my depth commenting further on either the Macdonald or the O'Neill succession in relation to their DNA. So too O'Donoghue of the Lakes aka O'Donoghue Ross aka O'Donoghue More being DF21 and O'Donoghue of the Glens being CTS4466. I have already had to dig into why the O'Cathains of Ciannachta Glinne-Geimhein from the Northern Ui Niall and the O'Cathains of Cenel Sedna descended (supposedly) from Niall's brother Fiachra are L658. I think I now know the answer to that, but cannot help you further with the Macdonalds. Sorry.

So just to underscore the point, I was talking purely about Macdonald of Islay and not the Chief of the Name, Macdonald of Macdonald and Sleate. That unintentional changing of one name to another and attributing that to me would have placed placed me in a difficult position although I accept that this was innocent and unintended. At this point I think I have to hand over any further Macdonald discussion to others. Glad we sorted out the misunderstanding though.

Jean M
12-12-2013, 12:28 PM
OK, I'll take the change of my words "lord Macdonald of Islay" to "Chief of the Name" .

The problem here is that there is no current Lord Macdonald of Islay. I have no idea who was recruited to the project under that name. Kit 265119 gives the name John Ian Islay Mac Alan Lord MacDonald, which must be the ancestor claimed by this person. An online genealogy claims him have lived 1321-1388 and to be the son of Angus Og of Islay. http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/814733/6953648923

It can easily be seen from his name (Mac Alan) that he was not the son of Angus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aonghas_%C3%93g_of_Islay. Angus had two sons named Ian/John (Scottish/English versions of the same name):

John of Islay, Lord of the Isles, the first person to use the title Lord of the Isles.

An illegitimate son, by a daughter of Dougall MacHenry: Iain Fraoch MacDonald, who founded Clan MacDonald of Glencoe.

So it looks as though Kit 265119 is claiming descent from John of Islay, Lord of the Isles, due to some confusion in a genealogy.

MacUalraig
12-12-2013, 12:46 PM
You can check the names of clan chiefs via the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs http://www.clanchiefs.org.uk/chief/ which lists all five of the MacDonald chiefs:

MacDonald of Clanranald The Captain of Clanranald
Macdonald of Glengarry Ranald Macdonell of Glengarry
MacDonald of Keppoch Ranald MacDonald of Keppoch
Macdonald of Macdonald The Lord Macdonald of Macdonald
Macdonald of Sleat Sir Ian Macdonald of Sleat Bt.

oneillabu
12-12-2013, 09:32 PM
[QUOTE=oneillabu;22797]First of all I want to thank everyone that participates in this study that will hopefully shine some light on many of the mysteries of our Celtic ancestors.

Step one – What is the origin of the subject, are there entries in any of the early annals to support this origin and are there any written pedigrees to further support this. In this step we will collectively look for every scrap of information on the subject and examine these thoroughly and make a finding based on this examination of the accumulated data.

Lets begin with the Lord of the Isles then

Here are the early pedigrees that are given for Somerled


Book of Ballymote

Colla Uais
Ecach
Fergusa
Goffrid
Maini
Niallgusa
Suibni
Indirgi
Solamh
Gilladamnain
Gillebrigid
Somharli

Book of Lecan

Colla Uais
Eathach
Eircc
Fergag
Gofrag
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Miargaigi
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillabridi
Somairli

1467 MS

Colla Uais
Eathach Feighlioch
Cartain
Eirc
Fergusa
Gofrig
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Meargad
Solaim
Gill Eagamain
Gillbrigde
Somairle

Annals of Clonmacnoise

Colla Wais
Eahagh
Eirck
Fergussa
Cathwaye
Godfrey
Mayne
Nealgusa
Swyne
Meargaye
Salomon
Gille Gilladawnayne
Gillebride
Sawarle

Harleian MS 1425

Colla U Uais

Eache
Caraghan
Earc
Mayne
Nihallaghus
Gafrough
Meargaen
Suyvune
Solamh
Giolla Aghanam
Giolla Bruade
Somhairle


Monro 1549

Thola Craisme
Ethoy
Carlayne
Ericke
Fergus
Gothofreid
Racime
Malghwssa
Swyffine
Mearghaighe
Solla
Gille Adam
Gillebryde
Somarle

Keating

Colla Uais
Eochaid
Crimthann
Erc
Fergus
Goffradh
Mani
Niallgus
Suibhni
Medraide
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillebhridi na mbo
Samharli


O’Cleary

Colla Uais
Eirc
Carthenn
Fergus
Goffradha
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibhne
Merguidhe
Solamh
Giolla Adamnan
Giolla Bhride
Somhairle


These are all Celtic in origin, have I missed a Norse pedigree or are we looking at an NPE in the line?

Ian B
12-13-2013, 01:01 AM
Jean:
" An online genealogy claims him have lived 1321-1388 and to be the son of Angus Og of Islay." Is this the same man who was known as Angus Og MacDonald, Lord of the Isles?

Jean M
12-13-2013, 01:14 AM
Jean: Is this the same man who was known as Angus Og MacDonald, Lord of the Isles?

I gave a link to the Wikipedia article on him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aonghas_%C3%93g_of_Islay : Aonghas Óg MacDomhnaill (d. 1314x18): (Anglicised: Angus MacDonald the younger) .. Lord of Islay and chief of Clan Donald. His son Ian of Islay was the first "Lord of the Isles" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Islay,_Lord_of_the_Isles

oneillabu
12-13-2013, 11:59 PM
[QUOTE=oneillabu;22797]

Here are the early pedigrees that are given for Somerled


Book of Ballymote

Colla Uais
Ecach
Fergusa
Goffrid
Maini
Niallgusa
Suibni
Indirgi
Solamh
Gilladamnain
Gillebrigid
Somharli

Book of Lecan

Colla Uais
Eathach
Eircc
Fergag
Gofrag
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Miargaigi
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillabridi
Somairli

1467 MS

Colla Uais
Eathach Feighlioch
Cartain
Eirc
Fergusa
Gofrig
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibne
Meargad
Solaim
Gill Eagamain
Gillbrigde
Somairle

Annals of Clonmacnoise

Colla Wais
Eahagh
Eirck
Fergussa
Cathwaye
Godfrey
Mayne
Nealgusa
Swyne
Meargaye
Salomon
Gille Gilladawnayne
Gillebride
Sawarle

Harleian MS 1425

Colla U Uais

Eache
Caraghan
Earc
Mayne
Nihallaghus
Gafrough
Meargaen
Suyvune
Solamh
Giolla Aghanam
Giolla Bruade
Somhairle


Monro 1549

Thola Craisme
Ethoy
Carlayne
Ericke
Fergus
Gothofreid
Racime
Malghwssa
Swyffine
Mearghaighe
Solla
Gille Adam
Gillebryde
Somarle

Keating

Colla Uais
Eochaid
Crimthann
Erc
Fergus
Goffradh
Mani
Niallgus
Suibhni
Medraide
Solamh
Gilleadamnain
Gillebhridi na mbo
Samharli


O’Cleary

Colla Uais
Eirc
Carthenn
Fergus
Goffradha
Maine
Niallgusa
Suibhne
Merguidhe
Solamh
Giolla Adamnan
Giolla Bhride
Somhairle


?

It is safe to assume then that there is no male Norse pedigree for Somerled Mac Gillebride so what possibilities does that give us for the R1a Clan Chief’s

1: That all of the pedigrees are pure fiction and there was no male Celtic ancestor

2: That the Norse DNA is from male ancestors of the female line (in-laws) who used the name surname McDonald.

3: That there was an NPE event sometime after Somerled.

It is highly unlikely that all of these pedigrees are fabricated because of the entries in the various Annals so it is entirely reasonable that we may search for a Celtic McDonald descended from the line of Somerled that pre-dates the Norse Clan Chief’s.

Somerled’s Father is given as Gillebride of Clan Angus so he was effectively of the same line as Clan Mac Aonghuis (McInnes) and is actually recorded as leading Clan McInnes against the Viking’s, he is also supposed to be buried on the Island of Iona the same as the ancient McInnes clan which further supports the McInnes connection. He is recorded in the Annals of Ulster in 1164 as trying to persuade the then Abbot of Derry Flaithbertach Ua Brolchain to relocate to the Island of Iona further supporting his connection with Iona. According to the old Seanachies and supported by the given pedigrees Gillebride was a descendent of Aonghuis son of Erc, hence the name Mac Aonghuis, this Aonghuis was a Brother of Fergus Mor Mac Erc.

Somerled’s Mother is reputed to be a Daughter of Sigurd Hlodvisson or Sigurd the Stout whose Mother was said to be Eithne a Daughter of Cerball Mac Dunlainge King of Ossory. This shows that Somerled had Norse blood on his Mothers side and is mentioned by Scotland’s foremost genealogist Donald Whyte who states that Somerled was of Celtic origin but had Norse blood.


Somerled married Raghnailt the daughter of Olaf King of Mann and the Isles further reinforcing the Norse connection into subsequent generations.


The 1467 MS was partially written in the year 1467 (hence the name) by member of the MacMhuirich bardic family who were bards to the Lords of the Isles. This further supports the authenticity of the Somerled pedigree in this manuscript because they would have had first hand knowledge.

Heber
12-14-2013, 09:58 AM
One of the best ways to determine the DNA of the Kings of Scotland, Ireland and Norway is to test them. Many are buried in the Abbey of Iona, most in unidentifiable graves, because of erosion, from Kenneth McAlpin to Malcolm III, via Macbeth and Duncan. An inventory was recorded in 1549. Professor Dan Bradley of TCD mentioned earlier this year that the focus is now on ancient DNA and the budgets are available for suitable projects. The technology of aDNA has improved dramatically in recent years including Y testing.
If we can do it for Richard III, we can do it for the ancient kings of Dál Riata.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iona

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-and-scottish-kings/

"The ancient burial ground, called the Rèilig Odhrain (Eng: Oran's "burial place" or "cemetery"), contains the 12th century chapel of St Odhrán (said to be Columba's uncle), restored at the same time as the Abbey itself. It contains a number of medieval grave monuments. The abbey graveyard contains the graves of many early Scottish Kings, as well as kings from Ireland, Norway and France. Iona became the burial site for the kings of Dál Riata and their successors. Notable burials there include:
Cináed mac Ailpín, king of the Picts (also known today as "Kenneth I of Scotland")
Domnall mac Causantín, alternatively "king of the Picts" or "king of Alba" (i.e. Scotland; known as "Donald II")
Máel Coluim mac Domnaill, king of Scotland ("Malcolm I")
Donnchad mac Crínáin, king of Scotland ("Duncan I")
Mac Bethad mac Findlaích, king of Scotland ("Macbeth")
Domnall mac Donnchada, king of Scotland ("Domnall Bán" or "Donald III")
John Smith Labour Party Leader
In 1549 an inventory of 48 Scottish, 8 Norwegian and 4 Irish kings was recorded. None of these graves are now identifiable (their inscriptions were reported to have worn away at the end of the 17th century). Saint Baithin and Saint Failbhe may also be buried on the island. The Abbey graveyard is also the final resting place of John Smith, the former Labour Party leader, who loved Iona. His grave is marked with an epitaph quoting Alexander Pope: "An honest man's the noblest work of God".[33]
Other early Christian and medieval monuments have been removed for preservation to the cloister arcade of the Abbey, and the Abbey museum (in the medieval infirmary). The ancient buildings of Iona Abbey are now cared for by Historic Scotland (entrance charge)."

oneillabu
12-14-2013, 06:31 PM
One of the best ways to determine the DNA of the Kings of Scotland, Ireland and Norway is to test them. Many are buried in the Abbey of Iona, most in unidentifiable graves, because of erosion, from Kenneth McAlpin to Malcolm III, via Macbeth and Duncan. An inventory was recorded in 1549. Professor Dan Bradley of TCD mentioned earlier this year that the focus is now on ancient DNA and the budgets are available for suitable projects. The technology of aDNA has improved dramatically in recent years including Y testing.
If we can do it for Richard III, we can do it for the ancient kings of Dál Riata.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iona

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-and-scottish-kings/

"The ancient burial ground, called the Rèilig Odhrain (Eng: Oran's "burial place" or "cemetery"), contains the 12th century chapel of St Odhrán (said to be Columba's uncle), restored at the same time as the Abbey itself. It contains a number of medieval grave monuments. The abbey graveyard contains the graves of many early Scottish Kings, as well as kings from Ireland, Norway and France. Iona became the burial site for the kings of Dál Riata and their successors. Notable burials there include:
Cináed mac Ailpín, king of the Picts (also known today as "Kenneth I of Scotland")
Domnall mac Causantín, alternatively "king of the Picts" or "king of Alba" (i.e. Scotland; known as "Donald II")
Máel Coluim mac Domnaill, king of Scotland ("Malcolm I")
Donnchad mac Crínáin, king of Scotland ("Duncan I")
Mac Bethad mac Findlaích, king of Scotland ("Macbeth")
Domnall mac Donnchada, king of Scotland ("Domnall Bán" or "Donald III")
John Smith Labour Party Leader
In 1549 an inventory of 48 Scottish, 8 Norwegian and 4 Irish kings was recorded. None of these graves are now identifiable (their inscriptions were reported to have worn away at the end of the 17th century). Saint Baithin and Saint Failbhe may also be buried on the island. The Abbey graveyard is also the final resting place of John Smith, the former Labour Party leader, who loved Iona. His grave is marked with an epitaph quoting Alexander Pope: "An honest man's the noblest work of God".[33]
Other early Christian and medieval monuments have been removed for preservation to the cloister arcade of the Abbey, and the Abbey museum (in the medieval infirmary). The ancient buildings of Iona Abbey are now cared for by Historic Scotland (entrance charge)."

Testing the buried on Iona would be ideal, the first real concrete evidence of the early Celtic genetic makeup especially the ancient Royal lines however I do recall this subject was spoke about before and as far as I can remember I think that there is some heritage order that prevents any form of excavation of this ancient site.

I also remember at the time that a similar recovery of DNA from Sir Niall O'Neill’s tomb was mentioned. Sir Niall is buried in the French Chapel in Waterford since 1690 and the whole site is unused so there should be no issue in recovering a DNA sample from his tomb, also due to the short enough time span his remains should be well preserved enough for a high quality sample however nothing has been done and probably will not unless some kind of a media campaign is launched.

If the science department of the Waterford Institute of Technology worked with a partner such as the University of Leicester who have prior experience of this type of recovery then it is possible due to the media coverage and publicity for Waterford that this would generate that such a venture would be considered. I would not recommend involving Trinity College because it is unlikely that the results would ever be published and it would be their little secret.

An example of this was when a mitrochondrial DNA sample was recovered from a 3000 year old female skeleton in Ireland and they tested a number of pupils in a local school which produced a few matches of the same type however the results were never published so we could expect the same treatment with Sir Niall’s DNA.

For Iona I would say the best bet is to involve Alistair Moffat and Scotlands DNA and possibly work in conjunction with BBC Alba to televise the whole event something along the same line as the publicity surrounded the testing of the Mummies in Egypt with a lot of fanfare surrounding the results. This would also be a tourist bonanza for Scotland in the amount of publicity it would generate.

Do not underestimate the amount of opposition that exists to this testing because there are many there who do not want these answers to ever be made public and would much prefer that the existing status quo remains in which existing claims are treated as fact and are never challenged.

IrishTypeIII
12-21-2013, 02:08 AM
One, I believe, we can put away immediately is the Dál gCais signature, as carried by Brian Boru, Brian Bóruma mac Cennétig, High King of Ireland, c931 -23 April 1014.

His direct descendant, "The O'Brien", Sir Conor Myles John O'Brien, 18th Baron Inchiquin, Chief of the name O'Brien and Prince of Thomond, has tested and is R-L226.

Many O'Brien's today carry this signature, and when looking at the Irish Pedigrees, other Irish names descend from this line prior to the taking up of permanent surnames. Some of the surnames associated with the O'Brien line 1,000 years ago are Kennedy, Casey, Hogan, McEnchroe (Crow) and McCraw/McGrath which all feature prominently in the R-L226 project.

Dennis Wright
www.irishtype3dna.org/

Ian B
12-21-2013, 02:35 AM
I gave a link to the Wikipedia article on him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aonghas_%C3%93g_of_Islay : Aonghas Óg MacDomhnaill (d. 1314x18): (Anglicised: Angus MacDonald the younger) .. Lord of Islay and chief of Clan Donald. His son Ian of Islay was the first "Lord of the Isles" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Islay,_Lord_of_the_Isles

Jean: Don't want to seem argumentative, but Wiki also has an article on Angus Og - apparently a different person to the Lord Islay. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aonghas_%C3%93g)

This article is about Aonghas Óg, son of John of Islay, Earl of Ross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Islay,_Earl_of_Ross). For other uses, see Aonghas Óg (disambiguation) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aonghas_%C3%93g_(disambiguation)).
Aonghas Óg (died 1490) was a Scottish nobleman who was the last independent Lord of the Isles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Isles). Aonghas became a rebel against both his father and against the Scottish crown, in a civil clan war which would see the end of the independent Lordship of the Isles.
Angus was born the bastard son of John of Islay, Earl of Ross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Islay,_Earl_of_Ross) (Eoin). In time, Aonghas would become a rebel against both his father and against the Scottish crown. He is not to be confused with his namesake, Aonghas Óg, Lord of Islay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aonghas_%C3%93g,_Lord_of_Islay), who fought alongside Robert the Bruce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_I_of_Scotland).
After the discovery in 1476 of a secret treaty made by John of Islay with Edward IV of England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_IV_of_England) by James III of Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_III_of_Scotland), James stripped Ross of his earldom, as well as the sheriffdoms of Nairn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nairn) and Inverness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverness), and the lordships of Kintyre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintyre) and Knapdale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knapdale), but confirmed Eoin with the remainder of his lands and the title Lord of the Isles. It appears that Aonghas, as Eoin's heir, was not prepared to accept this settlement. Aonghas campaigned to regain Ross and the other lost dominions. At first he may have been supported by his father, but this did not last. Aonghas married Isobella Campbell daughter of Colin Campbell, 1st Earl of Argyll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Campbell,_1st_Earl_of_Argyll).
Eoin, his prestige in tatters, was driven from Islay by his son. Eoin managed to gather support among the MacGill'Eain ("MacLean") kindred of Duart, the MacLeoid kindred of Lewis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Lewis) and Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Harris), and MacNeill kindred of Barra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Barra), as well as the Scottish crown and John Stewart, Earl of Atholl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stewart,_1st_Earl_of_Atholl); but Aonghas had the important support of Domhnall Ballach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domhnall_Ballach) and the rest of the MacDomhnaill kindred.
Rebellion and war

Aonghas gathered his forces and those of his allies against the armies of his father, and a great sea battle took place near Tobermory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobermory,_Mull), the Battle of the Bloody Bay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bloody_Bay), probably in the year 1481, in which Aonghas defeated the galleys of his father's west highland allies. In the same year, another battle took place at Lagabraad (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lagabraad&action=edit&redlink=1), in which Aonghas defeated a royal army led by the Earl of Atholl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Atholl). According to Hugh MacDonald's History of the MacDonalds, 517 of Atholl's men were slain. Aonghas followed up his victory by retaking control of Dingwall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingwall) Castle and Easter Ross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Ross).
Aonghas had benefitted from political distractions in the south. By 1483 those distractions were over, and the earl of Atholl and earl of Huntly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Huntly) were able to bring their presence to bear on the north, forcing Aonghas to retreat back to the west. However, the great magnate rebellion of 1488 gave Aonghas another chance to move east and Aonghas was able to seize control of Inverness.
Death and legacy

In 1490 Aonghas had his throat cut while he was sleeping. The murderer was his Irish harpist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harp), Art O'Carby, who carried out the act for reasons which remain unclear. Following Aonghas' death, the crown launched a new campaign against the power of the Lord of the Isles, and Aonghas' son Domhnall Dubh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domhnall_Dubh) was captured by Colin Campbell, 1st Earl of Argyll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Campbell,_1st_Earl_of_Argyll). Aonghas' death would see the effective end of the independent Lordship of the Isles. Henceforth the power of the Stewarts and the Crown of Scotland would be greatly increased . (And now we have a Greco/German holding the title Lord of the Isles-quelle horreur!!!)

Jean M
12-21-2013, 10:38 AM
Jean: Don't want to seem argumentative, but Wiki also has an article on Angus Og - apparently a different person to the Lord Islay.)


Yes it is all very confusing, but the online genealogy* which gives the supposed ancestor of Kit 265119 - John Ian Islay Mac Alan Lord MacDonald More (1321-1388), supposes him to be descended from Angus Og Lord Isles MacDonald More (1274-1330). Those dates are too early for the later Aonghas Óg (died 1490). The dates in the online genealogy for the earlier Angus Og may be wrong. Wikipedia gives him as dying between 1314 and 1318, but the more important clue that this genealogy is bogus is that it gives someone called John Mac Alan as the son of someone called Angus. He cannot be. His name tells us that he was the son of Alan.

* http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/814733/6953648923

Dubhthach
12-21-2013, 11:19 AM
Óg = young, the contrasting term is "Mór" (Big/great). Basically how you say Snr./Jnr. in Irish.

So "Seán Mór" could be the father of "Seán Óg" -- of course what's even more fun with name like "Aonghus Óg" is that it's also the name of the "God of Love" namely:

"Aengus Óg" -- who had epitaphs such as: "mac ind óg" (son of the young), "mac Óg" (young son), Maccan (little son -- -an = diminutive)
;)

-Paul
DF41+)

oneillabu
12-21-2013, 04:18 PM
Yes it is all very confusing, but the online genealogy* which gives the supposed ancestor of Kit 265119 - John Ian Islay Mac Alan Lord MacDonald More (1321-1388), supposes him to be descended from Angus Og Lord Isles MacDonald More (1274-1330). Those dates are too early for the later Aonghas Óg (died 1490). The dates in the online genealogy for the earlier Angus Og may be wrong. Wikipedia gives him as dying between 1314 and 1318, but the more important clue that this genealogy is bogus is that it gives someone called John Mac Alan as the son of someone called Angus. He cannot be. His name tells us that he was the son of Alan.

* http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/814733/6953648923

There are actually two DF21 claimants, Frank Everett McDonald is in the Clan Colla DF21 group, while the DF5+ John Ian Islay Mac Alan Lord MacDonald is from the John of Islay line so according to the pedigrees these are descended from two different Brothers, both Sons of Angus Mór MacDonnell however this cannot be right because while both are DF21+ it is widely accepted that Z246 is very old meaning that only one of these (if any) could be correct. I am going to examine all the various sources of material such as Skene, Schlegal etc to pick out the main points that may help us in determining the most likely DNA candidate for Somerled based on these findings.

Rory Cain
01-30-2014, 03:32 AM
[QUOTE=oneillabu;22925]

It is safe to assume then that there is no male Norse pedigree for Somerled Mac Gillebride so what possibilities does that give us for the R1a Clan Chief’s

1: That all of the pedigrees are pure fiction and there was no male Celtic ancestor

2: That the Norse DNA is from male ancestors of the female line (in-laws) who used the name surname McDonald.

3: That there was an NPE event sometime after Somerled.

It is highly unlikely that all of these pedigrees are fabricated because of the entries in the various Annals so it is entirely reasonable that we may search for a Celtic McDonald descended from the line of Somerled that pre-dates the Norse Clan Chief’s.

Somerled’s Father is given as Gillebride of Clan Angus so he was effectively of the same line as Clan Mac Aonghuis (McInnes) and is actually recorded as leading Clan McInnes against the Viking’s, he is also supposed to be buried on the Island of Iona the same as the ancient McInnes clan which further supports the McInnes connection. He is recorded in the Annals of Ulster in 1164 as trying to persuade the then Abbot of Derry Flaithbertach Ua Brolchain to relocate to the Island of Iona further supporting his connection with Iona. According to the old Seanachies and supported by the given pedigrees Gillebride was a descendent of Aonghuis son of Erc, hence the name Mac Aonghuis, this Aonghuis was a Brother of Fergus Mor Mac Erc.

Somerled’s Mother is reputed to be a Daughter of Sigurd Hlodvisson or Sigurd the Stout whose Mother was said to be Eithne a Daughter of Cerball Mac Dunlainge King of Ossory. This shows that Somerled had Norse blood on his Mothers side and is mentioned by Scotland’s foremost genealogist Donald Whyte who states that Somerled was of Celtic origin but had Norse blood.


Somerled married Raghnailt the daughter of Olaf King of Mann and the Isles further reinforcing the Norse connection into subsequent generations.


The 1467 MS was partially written in the year 1467 (hence the name) by member of the MacMhuirich bardic family who were bards to the Lords of the Isles. This further supports the authenticity of the Somerled pedigree in this manuscript because they would have had first hand knowledge.

Actually it might not be safe to make that assumption and it may be that a fourth alternative might be added. The ultimate authority on Scots chiefs is the Court of the Lord Lyon of Scotland. One Lord Lyon wrote:

"The genealogies of both King Somerled and King Olaf [of Man] require much further research. But it may be suggested that both sprang from the Norse kings in Ireland through two different 'sons' of Ivar, King of Dublin, who ransacked Dunbarton in 870 - and that King Ivar himself descended through King Ranald Higher-then-the-Hills ...from the Norse Ynglingar dynasty...

"King Somerled's descent from the House of Ivar depends on the reasonable identification of his great-great-grandfather Imergi (as given by the seanachies) with the Iehmarc of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, one of the three kings who submitted to Canute when he invaded Scotland and who was obviously Echmarcach ('Horse-Rider' in Gaelic, and pronounced Margadr by the Norse), King of Dublin on and off from 1035 to 1052."

The plot thickens! Lord Lyon ought to know his stuff. As something of an aside, one Macdonald of Islay claimant bears the common Scots topographical name of Moore. I am not convinced that the name Moore provides proof of descent from a chief who bore the adjective 'Mor' after his surname. Apart from the Modha, also anglicised as Moore, Moore is more usually a topographical name meaning 'hill' and is interchangeable with the Scots surname Muir. One might drop the 'Mor' but never the 'Macdonald'. BTW this is not a vendetta and as a DF21 patriot I'll take your side if you can find a more compelling example.

Heber
01-30-2014, 09:04 AM
My particular focus will be the Ely O Carroll and Clan Colla.
In my opinion, if we look at the historical record and the matching surnames and clan names, I would guess DF21 developed in Ireland around the Airghilla area possibly incorporating the Three Collas. Colla Uais may have migrated to Scotland and founded the Scottish lineages of Dal Riata and Siol Alpin, Colla da Crioch may have remained in the area and gave rise to McMahon of Airghilla and McGuire of Fermanagh while O Carroll of Airghilla may have gone south and founded Ely O Carroll. There was probably overlap with the Osraigh of Laois to the East of Ely and with Ui Maine to the West of Ely. I will try to kickstart an Ely O Carroll project in Ely O Carroll country around Birr, Seir Kieran and Aghaboe and get people with documented genealogies to test. I would love to test King Cearbhall who is buried in Seir Kieran but doubt if it is possible to get permits. Other Ossraigh kings are buried in Aghaboe.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df21/.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-clans-ely-o-carroll/

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534765651055/

Of all the sources OHart is the least reliable although it is available online. However it gives an idea of surname structure. Keating, Wolfe and McLysagh are good guides to surnames. 15, 19, 20, 24 and 25 below are good original sources for Airghilla. As a general rule you are on safer ground post 6th century as there are Annalistic records to refer to. The Principal Extant Irish Genealogical Texts in Chronological Order
• (1) First Leinster collection – in the second portion of Bodleian Oxford MS Rawlinson B 502 – penned, possibly at Glendalough, c. 1125.
• (2) Second Leinster collection – towards the end of the Book of Leinster (TCD MS 1339 [H.2.18]) – penned somewhere in Leinster c. 1160.
• (3) The Bansheanchas, Lore of Famous Women, in both prose and metrical versions – the latter composed in 1147 by Gilla Mo-Dutu Ó Caiside in Devenish monastery in Lower Lough Erne, Co. Fermanagh – preserved in seven manuscripts (including the Books of Leinster, Uí Mhaine, Ballymote, Lecan, etc.).
• (4) The Genealogies of Irish saints, preserved in more than a dozen recensions in the principal Irish manuscript-collections (the Books of Leinster, Uí Mhaine, Ballymote, and Lecan, TCD H.2.7, Mac Fhir Bhisigh’s Great Book of Genealogies, etc.).
• (5) The Ó Cianáin Miscellany – the first part of National Library of Ireland MSS G 2-3 – written, probably in Fermanagh, by Ádhamh Ó Cianáin, in 1344-5.
• (6) The Ó Dalláin manuscript – TCD 1298 (or H.2.7) – penned in Uí Mhaine (east Co. Galway) by Lúcás Ó Dalláin, around the year 1350.
• (7) The Book of Uí Mhaine (formerly known as the Book of Ó Dubhagáin) – RIA MS 1225 (or D i 1) – largely compiled (it would appear) towards the end of the 14th century.
• (8) The Book of Ballymote – RIA MS 536 (or 23 P 12) – also dating from the (early) 1390s.
• (9) The Book of Lecan – RIA MS 535 (or 23 P 2) – largely compiled between the years 1397 and 1418.
• (10) Bodleian Laud MS 610, the second part of which (containing the genealogies) was written in the years 1454-5.
• (11) The two-part Leabhar Donn – RIA MS 1233 (or 23 Q 10) – one part dating from the period 1432-41 and the other from some decades later, 1476-82; apparently penned ‘somewhere on the Sligo-Leitrim border.’
• (12) The fragmentary King’s Inns MS G 11 compiled c. 1500, although ‘much of the material … seems to be some thirty or forty years earlier.’
• (13) Part of TCD MS 1372 (or H.4.31) containing ‘a valuable collection of c. 1500, especially detailed for the families of MacReynolds, Magauran and MacKiernan.’
• (14) The (largely) 16th-century family-collections edited by Standish Hayes O Grady (as appendices to Caithréim Thoirdhealbhaigh, 1929) under the titles Senchas Buitlérach, Senchas Búrcach, Senchas Síl Bhriain, and Senchas Geraltach.
• (15) The Genealogies of Irish Kings and Saints – compiled in 1630 by the Four Masters (Brother Míchél Ó Cléirigh, Fear Feasa Ó Maoil Chonaire, Cú Choigcríche Ó Cléirigh and Cú Choigcríche Ó Duibhgeannáin) in the house of the Franciscan friars of Athlone, situated at Killinure, Co. Westmeath.
• (16) The O Flaherty-O Conor Collection – RIA MS 621 (or E iv 4) – the first 31-leaf portion of which dates from the (early?) 17th century, and which passed successively through the hands of Ruaidhrí Ó Flaithbheartaigh (Roderic O Flaherty) and Charles O Conor.
• (17) The collection of genealogies attached to Séathrún Céitinn’s Foras Feasa ar Éirinn, the earliest manuscript of which dates from c. 1640.
• (18) The so-called ‘Book of the MacDermotts’ (Leabhar Cloinne Maoil Ruanaidh) – RIA MS 539 (or D i 3) – produced by a number of Ó Duibhgeannáin scribes ‘in or around 1644.’
• (19) Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh’s Great Book of Irish Genealogies (including the Abridged version known as the Cuimre) – compiled (principally in Galway) between the years 1645 and 1666 and preserved in the autograph manuscript, UCD Add. Ir. MS 14, and (in the case of the Cuimre) in Maynooth MS B 8 and RIA MS 585 (24 N 2).
• (20) The O Clery Book of Genealogies – RIA MS 790 (or 23 D 17) – compiled by Cú Choigcríche Ó Cléirigh, one of the Four Masters, at some time, as yet undetermined, in the period c. 1630-64.
• (21) The fragmentary paper manuscript at the end of TCD MS 1337 (or H.3.18) which contains a parallel (and, according to Kenneth Nicholls, ‘often better’) version of much of the O Clery work.
• (22) An acephalous genealogical tract (including unique material on the Burkes of Connacht) in a manuscript of uncertain date (but probably 17th-century) and provenance, TCD MS 1393 (or H.5.21).
• (23) The collection of genealogies found in a number of 17th-century Ulster manuscripts, notably BL MS Eg. 133 and TCD MSS 1366 and 1372 (or H.4.25 and H.4.31).
• (24) The genealogies of Ceinéal Eóghain (An Leabhar Eóghanach) and Oirghialla (Geinealach na gColladh) attached to Leabhar Cloinne Aodha Bhuidhe, a duanaireor ‘poem-book’ compiled in 1680 – RIA MS 1076 (or 24 P 33) – although the original version of the Leabhar Eóghanach appears to date from about a century earlier.
• (25) The bulky collection of Munster genealogies, An Leabhar Muimhneach, preserved in several 18th-century manuscripts (the principal one – RIA MS 756, or 23 E 26 – penned in 1716-17 by the Dublin scribe Richard Tipper) but based on works by two earlier 17th-century Munster scholars, Domhnall Ó Duinnín and Tadhg mac Dáire Mheic Bhruaideadha.
• (26) The great Mac Solaidh-Tipper collection (incorrectly ascribed to Tipper alone by Nicholls), compiled by Seán Mac Solaidh in 1714 – RIA MS 153-4 (or 23 M 17-18) – and copied c. 1724 by Richard Tipper – NLI MS G 177.
• (27) The collection in TCD MS 1286 (or H.1.12); in the words of Kenneth Nicholls, ‘a very bad copy by the 18th-century scribe Hugh O Daly of a collection said to have been made by a Seán mac Muiris Uí Maoilchonaire in 1480.’
• (28) An 18th-century manuscript – RIA MS 303 (or 23 L 37) – containing a small collection of MacNamara/Mac Con Mara genealogies originally compiled in the late 14th century and recopied at least twice in the course of the 17th.
• (29) The collection of O Reilly genealogies, based on a manuscript written in 1703 by Eóghan Ó Raghallaigh, and preserved in a later copy – RIA MS 759 (or 23 F 15).
• (30) The intriguing work known as Linea Antiqua, a great collection of Gaelic genealogies, albeit written in English, and compiled between 1707 and 1712 by Roger O Ferrall – preserved in the Genealogical Office (now part of Nat. Lib. Ireland) as GO MS 155.
• (31) The early-18th-century collection of Fermanagh genealogies which survives only in an inaccurate late transcript, from 1842: St Colman’s College, Fermoy, MS CF 6.
As for printed editions of these texts, a little under half (14) have been edited to date (leaving some seventeen texts – several of them quite substantial – of which editions have yet to be produced); it must be emphasised, however, that the existing editions – notably nos. 1-2, 4, 19, 20 and 25 – include some of the most voluminous collections of Irish genealogies:

Jean M
01-30-2014, 10:34 AM
One Lord Lyon wrote:

"The genealogies of both King Somerled and King Olaf [of Man] require much further research. But it may be suggested that both sprang from the Norse kings in Ireland through two different 'sons' of Ivar, King of Dublin, who ransacked Dunbarton in 870 - and that King Ivar himself descended through King Ranald Higher-then-the-Hills ...from the Norse Ynglingar dynasty...

This is based on acceptance of the much later and non-historical saga of Ragnarr Loðbrók, legendary king of Denmark, and his sons Óláfr the white and Ívarr the boneless, and unconvincing attempts to weave Óláfr and Ívarr into the royal line of Norway.

As I show in AJ, Ívarr and his brothers were probably the sons of Godfrid, son of Harald Klak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Klak

Andrew Lancaster
01-30-2014, 10:40 AM
[QUOTE=oneillabu;22797]

These are all Celtic in origin, have I missed a Norse pedigree or are we looking at an NPE in the line?

The term NPE is almost meaningless when we are discussing very old pedigrees that go back before the time of modern surnames. The old pedigrees you refer to generally give no details but we know that powerful families often passed on names that look like surnames to a modern name, but were more like titles passed on to heirs. (Heirs are not the same as sons on all occasions. For example they can be nephews, adopted sons, sons-in-law, or even just friends and allies.)

So in practice we should EXPECT major lineages of chiefs NOT to all be in the same male line.

Best Regards
Andrew

Rory Cain
01-31-2014, 12:45 AM
My particular focus will be the Ely O Carroll and Clan Colla.
I will try to kickstart an Ely O Carroll project in Ely O Carroll country around Birr, Seir Kieran and Aghaboe and get people with documented genealogies to test.

Possibly a good choice, although the Ely O'Carroll DNA appears to be well served already. There is an Ely O'Carroll project run by Peter Biggins and an Ely Carroll sub-group in the R-DF21 Project. Not sure why the prefix 'O' was topped by the DF21 Project. Admittedly a number of O'Carrolls have dropped it, but the district remains known as Ely O'Carroll with the time-honoured Gaelic prefix 'O' and would be the more historically accurate, short of going all the way and adopting the Irish Gaelic spelling. Perhaps a misguided attempt to appease someone?

Heber
01-31-2014, 12:27 PM
Possibly a good choice, although the Ely O'Carroll DNA appears to be well served already. There is an Ely O'Carroll project run by Peter Biggins and an Ely Carroll sub-group in the R-DF21 Project. Not sure why the prefix 'O' was topped by the DF21 Project. Admittedly a number of O'Carrolls have dropped it, but the district remains known as Ely O'Carroll with the time-honoured Gaelic prefix 'O' and would be the more historically accurate, short of going all the way and adopting the Irish Gaelic spelling. Perhaps a misguided attempt to appease someone?

Rory, I am aware of Ely O Carroll DNA project which is rather narrow in its focus and STR range. My focus will be on SNP testing and going back to the homeland and surviving families living in the area. I have contacted the local Historical Society and Enterprise Board and will see how it progresses. There should be a lot of O Carrollls gathering for the 1,000 anniversary of the Battle of Clontarf. I will consult with all projects and interested parties.

"The most famous of the Cearbhaill's were the Ely O'Carroll's of Uíbh Fhailí (an ancient townland) which includes present day County Offaly and parts of Tipperary. They derived their name from Cearbhall, King of Ely (Éile), he was one of the leaders who fought and led the Elyans into battle with the victorious native irish army at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014."

Rory Cain
02-01-2014, 01:52 AM
Rory, I am aware of Ely O Carroll DNA project which is rather narrow in its focus and STR range. My focus will be on SNP testing and going back to the homeland and surviving families living in the area. I have contacted the local Historical Society and Enterprise Board and will see how it progresses. There should be a lot of O Carrollls gathering for the 1,000 anniversary of the Battle of Clontarf. I will consult with all projects and interested parties.

"The most famous of the Cearbhaill's were the Ely O'Carroll's of Uíbh Fhailí (an ancient townland) which includes present day County Offaly and parts of Tipperary. They derived their name from Cearbhall, King of Ely (Éile), he was one of the leaders who fought and led the Elyans into battle with the victorious native irish army at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014."

Gerard, I welcome any attempt to draw more DF21+ folks out of hiding, including more Ely O'Carroll folks. In writing of the sanctuary of Briganten goddess Brigid at Caltraghbreedy, Co Galway, Fr Tom O'Connor wrote, "This sanctuary was in the lands of Clann Cian, descendants of Tadg Mac Cian from Eli in Offaly who were Briganten and worshippers of the goddess Brigid." The Ely O'Carroll chiefs trace their ancestry to Tadg Mac Cian.

Interesting that we are finding DF21 not only in the Eile but also in other clans associated with the Brigantes in some way. Amongst the surnames appearing in the Ely O'Carroll sub-group of the R-DF21 project are Gorman and Tracy. MacGorman was chief of Crioch Ui Bairrche and O'Tracy was chief of Ui Bairrche Tire. In Ireland the Brigantes abandoned their British name Brigantes, a Romansed form of a P-Celtic name and adopted the Irish name Ui Bairrche. The Seven Septs of Laois who are DF21+ are strongly associated with the Barony of Slievemargy (Sliebh mBairrche).

Rory

Heber
02-01-2014, 10:27 AM
Gerard, I welcome any attempt to draw more DF21+ folks out of hiding, including more Ely O'Carroll folks. In writing of the sanctuary of Briganten goddess Brigid at Caltraghbreedy, Co Galway, Fr Tom O'Connor wrote, "This sanctuary was in the lands of Clann Cian, descendants of Tadg Mac Cian from Eli in Offaly who were Briganten and worshippers of the goddess Brigid." The Ely O'Carroll chiefs trace their ancestry to Tadg Mac Cian.

Interesting that we are finding DF21 not only in the Eile but also in other clans associated with the Brigantes in some way. Amongst the surnames appearing in the Ely O'Carroll sub-group of the R-DF21 project are Gorman and Tracy. MacGorman was chief of Crioch Ui Bairrche and O'Tracy was chief of Ui Bairrche Tire. In Ireland the Brigantes abandoned their British name Brigantes, a Romansed form of a P-Celtic name and adopted the Irish name Ui Bairrche. The Seven Septs of Laois who are DF21+ are strongly associated with the Barony of Slievemargy (Sliebh mBairrche).

Rory


Rory,

That is interesting. I match several Gormans (MacGorman).

The Clan Cian connection is interesting. I will investigate it further.

I have noticed the overlap with Ossary in DF21.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-clans-ely-o-carroll/

The grave marker of King Cearbhall of Ely O Carroll notes King of Ossary.

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534765651055/

"Cerball mac Dúnlainge (died 888; Middle Irish pronunciation: [ˈkərval mak ˈðūnləŋe]) was king of Ossory in south-east Ireland. The kingdom of Ossory (Osraige) occupied roughly the area of modern County Kilkenny and lay between the larger provincial kingdoms of Munster and Leinster.
Cerball came to prominence after the death of Fedelmid mac Crimthainn, King of Munster, in 847. Ossory had been subject for a period to the Eóganachta kings of Munster, but Feidlimid was succeeded by a series of weak kings who had to contend with Viking incursions on the coasts of Munster. As a result, Cerball was in a strong position and is said to have been the second most powerful king in Ireland in his later years.[1]
Kjarvalr Írakonungr, a figure in the Norse sagas who appears as an ancestor of many prominent Icelandic families, is identified with Cerball."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerball_mac_D%C3%BAnlainge

"Portions of Ossory were known by various names during its history. The portion between the Nore and Barrow was sometimes excluded from the kingdom of Ossory, and was anciently styled Hy Creoghain Gabhran. The southeastern part of Ossory was sometimes referred to as Comor na tri uisge, "the district of the three waters." The territory of the Uí Duach comprised much of the north and the north-eastern sections of Ossory. The countries of Ely O'Carroll and Hy Carthin comprised some of the north-western portion of Ossory. The lands of the southeast were possibly the territories of the Uí Bairrche (Uí Bearchon, aka Ibercon), the Uí Dheaghaidh (O'Dea, aka Ida), and the Uí Crinn (Uí Grine, aka Igrin).

"In ancient times the Kingdom of Ossory was divided under Brehon Laws into Magha, a term signifying "plains", of which seven are recorded in early documents, though not all of these are coterminous with the present county boundaries. The names of these, now doubtful of interpretation and no longer in popular usage, included Magh Airgead Rois, northwards from Kilkenny city; Magh Airbh, continuing further north-westwards to the Laois border; Magh Chearbaill, on a broad front from the Nore to the Barrow rivers, now comprising much of the barony of Gowran; Magh Ghabhar Laighean, northwards from the Johnswell Hills into modern Co. Laois (Leix); Magh Lacha (west of Kilkenny city to Callan?); Magh Feimhin, west of Callan to Slievenaman (in modern Co. Tipperary); and Magh Roighne, comprising most of Shillelogher Barony. "

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ossory.htm

Mikewww
02-01-2014, 04:38 PM
Rory,

That is interesting. I match several Gormans (MacGorman).
....

I don't have a Gorman or MacGorman FTDNA project URL so I've never looked for L21 people among them. I see their worldfamilies web site.
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/gorman/

Can someone ask them to turn on their FTDNA public project displays with MDKA origins checked marked along with Y Classic, Y colorized AND Y DNA SNP?

This actually saves them time as headache as FTDNA will automatically update the public project web sites and new test results come in, showing all 111 markers and the SNPs.

I send a request to a surname project owner or Terry Barton (worldfamilies) almost every day, it seems. Slowly we are getting people moved over so we can have cross the board consistency in viewing.

Heber
02-01-2014, 07:41 PM
I don't have a Gorman or MacGorman FTDNA project URL so I've never looked for L21 people among them. I see their worldfamilies web site.
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/gorman/

Can someone ask them to turn on their FTDNA public project displays with MDKA origins checked marked along with Y Classic, Y colorized AND Y DNA SNP?

This actually saves them time as headache as FTDNA will automatically update the public project web sites and new test results come in, showing all 111 markers and the SNPs.

I send a request to a surname project owner or Terry Barton (worldfamilies) almost every day, it seems. Slowly we are getting people moved over so we can have cross the board consistency in viewing.

I sent your request to the Gorman Project Administrator.

Rory Cain
02-01-2014, 11:30 PM
I sent your request to the Gorman Project Administrator.

Gerard, I hope that you have more success with the Gorman project admin than Mike or I have had. Most of his project are not DF21 and in an email exchange we had, he displayed little interest in DF21. Perhaps because DF21 is not his own DNA type. Nonetheless I would expect a DF21 strain in at least some of the Gorman sept, and in the Tracey sept, given their location. Later Ui Bairrche septs include:
Crioch Ui Bairrche: MacGorman, O Duffin, MacGrath
Ui Bairrche Maighe hAilbe: O Baniff, O Brennan, O Brien, O Canain, O Cellaig, O Gowran
Ui Bairrche Magh da Chon: O Kearney
Ui Bairrche Maige Dergraith: O Brogan
Ui Bairrche Tire: O Tracey, O Cullen, O Cummin, O Mangan, O Mooney, O Nealon, O Ronan
Ui Bairrche Mag Airget Rois: not known. This branch expanded well west into Munster at least twice in their history and may well have been incorporated into fabricated pedigrees as Munstermen.

Several of these surnames appear to possess the Ely O'Carroll DNA type.

Mikewww
02-02-2014, 04:59 AM
Gerard, I hope that you have more success with the Gorman project admin than Mike or I have had. ....
I just went right to Terry Barton because he is generally only an admin when not much is going on with a project. Terry responded quickly and i'm copying all of the >=67 STR haplotypes from Gorman as we speak.

brianlm1
02-02-2014, 08:26 PM
Have we come to a position whereby R1b-L21 is the minimalist definition for the term "Celt"?

Rory Cain
02-02-2014, 09:11 PM
Have we come to a position whereby R1b-L21 is the minimalist definition for the term "Celt"?

Bold question. I'll have a shot at answering. L21 is certainly Celtic, in my view. Sorry about that to those guys who think of themselves as purebred Anglos and keep wanting to make L21 Germanic. Certainly branches of L21 lives on the frontiers between Celtic and Germanic society, but in the male line, L21 means you are a Celt.

But minimalist position? Perhaps L21 is too minimalist. I regard P312 as the baseline Celtic marker, acknowledging that other haplogroups including and not confined to haplogroup I ended up in the mix. P312 includes not only L21 (some designated "Isles" Celts although the L21+ Continental Europeans might object); U152 (sometimes designated "Alpine Celts") and DF27 (sometimes designated "Atlantic Celts"). Of course that's just my thoughts.

George Chandler
02-02-2014, 09:28 PM
Personally I wouldn't call L21 Celtic as it predated the Celts. It expanded within the Celtic tribes and a very high percentage of people with Celtic ancestry are L21 pos. How L21 found it's way into other cultures or communities is open for debate but I don't see why an L21 person predating the Celts could not have arrived in another European culture. There can be many reasons why it is found there - if it predated the Celts though you would think the percentage would be higher in those areas, but it's also difficult to say for sure when you consider plagues eliminating 30% - 50% of the population, wars etc.

George

Mikewww
02-02-2014, 09:52 PM
Personally I wouldn't call L21 Celtic as it predated the Celts. It expanded within the Celtic tribes and a very high percentage of people with Celtic ancestry are L21 pos. How L21 found it's way into other cultures or communities is open for debate but I don't see why an L21 person predating the Celts could not have arrived in another European culture. There can be many reasons why it is found there - if it predated the Celts though you would think the percentage would be higher in those areas, but it's also difficult to say for sure when you consider plagues eliminating 30% - 50% of the population, wars etc.

George

Agreed. Well said. When L21 first started out out about 4000 years ago, I'm not sure we should characterize the presence of a true Celtic society yet. I may be better characterized as Italo-Celtic or may be Western Indo-European... or maybe, because we really don't know what they spoke and they were just Bell Beaker, or late Bell Beaker.

Heber
02-02-2014, 10:27 PM
Have we come to a position whereby R1b-L21 is the minimalist definition for the term "Celt"?

I see L21 as Bronze Age Isles Celtic and combined with DF27 as Atlantic Celtic.
1354

I see U152 as Iron Age Alpine Celtic associated with Le Tene and Halstatt cultures.
1355

In see P312 as Italic Proto Celtic or Bell beaker.

rms2
02-03-2014, 12:37 PM
The frequencies on those maps are in many instances way out of sync with Busby et al and are of doubtful accuracy. I am not trying to be overly critical of their creator, but I would caution against spreading them far and wide as if they were Gospel.

brianlm1
02-03-2014, 07:56 PM
Rory and George,
Thanks for your replies. Put together they fairly well sum up my understanding of Celticity after some reading of people like Cunliffe, Moffat, Clarkson, Haywood, and others. FTDNA's Clan MacFarlane project doesn't want to assign me to any of their clan groupings so I am starting to assume that my origins could be more of an indigenous background rather than being from chieftan or royal lines. I rather like the idea of my P312** being proto-Celtic. I am waiting on Britain's DNA results of my Y tests which they tell me have to go through further sequencing.
Brian

Rory Cain
02-18-2014, 12:08 AM
This thread is an attempt to carry out a comprehensive analysis of the L21 Celtic bloodlines that may have spawned the various Royal lines from earliest times until the eventual collapse of Celtic society. We will look at existing claimants and weigh up the merits of these based on detailed examination of the evidence presented and also look at any new research of ancient lines based on the latest SNP findings.

It might be wise to keep in mind the Irish Chiefs Watch website at http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanmurphy/chiefs/chiefswatch.htm

That website lists the following whose claims are not supported by the evidence:
MacSweeny Doe
O Cahan, allegedly of the Ulster sept (which was but one of several)
McShane-Johnson
O Hanlon
MacMahon of Thomond
O Higgins
MacShort, alleged Baron of Castleshort (apparently a MacCarthy Mor creation)
MacCarthy Mor (again)

Heber
02-18-2014, 11:02 PM
Here is a mapping of surnames to the L21 Phylogenetic Tree for Ireland.
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/
1437

oneillabu
02-19-2014, 12:49 AM
The purpose of this thread is to examine DNA evidence and not individuals paper pedigrees of which many are just fabrication, the McCarthy study concluded that DF21 was the most likely contender for the ancient line of the McCarthy Chiefs based on a the DNA of a number of surnames of a certain SNP which matched the given pedigrees and did not focus on any one individual. Likewise the Seven Septs of Laois are a collection of surnames linked to the given pedigree's that have tested positive for DF21 and not any one individual. I have no doubt that there are many fabricated pedigrees trying to link certain DNA types to the ancient lines, indeed I consider the whole Niall of the Nine hostages to be completely ludicrious with no hard evidence linking this type to the bloodline of St Columba and it has simply become a marketing ploy by FTDNA with those stupid Niall of the Nine hostages Tri Colour badges.

There are real answers to be had but it is far too soon yet, maybe in a few years time given the current pace of SNP research we will actually be able to assign individual SNP's to certain tribal groups that can then be linked to written pedigrees so until then all we can do is speculate on the various origins which is what this thread is about. Like I said all statements by me on this thread begin with "In my opinion" because I simply do not know and neither does anyone else for that matter, including Trinity College and their "Recent Study" which took place 10 years ago.

Rory Cain
02-19-2014, 06:17 AM
In order to verify the various claimants entitlements, won't it be necessary for them to participate?

It would not appear that you received an answer to your question. Getting chiefs and lords to participate would of course, be the biggest problem with the chieftains-based approach originally stated by the originator of this thread.

A further problem is that it was fashionable during the Victorian era to have a pedigree, even if fabricated. These fabricated pedigrees found their way into Burke's Peerage & Baronetage, O'Hart's irish Pedigrees and other such sources which accepted pedigrees without checking their authenticity. They would have lacked the ability to do so.

I notice that, apparently in response to my post re possible impostors mentioned on the Irish Chiefs Watch website, that the originator of this thread has changed his approach from chieftain-based to clan-based. That certainly makes it easier to obtain participants- a problem with the earlier approach; and now avoids the inherent danger of being sucked in by a fabricated pedigree. Thus I think that you might take oneillabu's post of today's date on this thread as a belated answer to your query also.

Heber
02-19-2014, 08:57 AM
One suggestion would be to approach Clans of Ireland and encourage DNA testing. In fact one of the current leaders of Clans of Ireland is also Chief of the McEgans and it was he who instigated the very successful Clan Egan Rallies and DNA projects. I am one of his matches.
There is a DNA section on the Clans of Ireland web site.
http://www.clansofireland.ie/baile/dna
Another more radical approach is Ancient DNA testing. Iona Abbey is the final resting place of over 50 of Dal Riata and Siol Alpin Kings and Chieftens. I recently visited Seir Kieran and Aghaboe, buriel place of the Ely O Carroll and Kings of Ossary. Their graves in some cases are cleared marked. Of course getting permits is the big issue. With the recently announced NGS of King Richard III, perhaps we will see more ancient DNA projects in the future.

Rory Cain
02-20-2014, 03:36 AM
One suggestion would be to approach Clans of Ireland and encourage DNA testing. In fact one of the current leaders of Clans of Ireland is also Chief of the McEgans and it was he who instigated the very successful Clan Egan Rallies and DNA projects. I am one of his matches.
There is a DNA section on the Clans of Ireland web site.
http://www.clansofireland.ie/baile/dna
Another more radical approach is Ancient DNA testing. Iona Abbey is the final resting place of over 50 of Dal Riata and Siol Alpin Kings and Chieftens. I recently visited Seir Kieran and Aghaboe, buriel place of the Ely O Carroll and Kings of Ossary. Their graves in some cases are cleared marked. Of course getting permits is the big issue. With the recently announced NGS of King Richard III, perhaps we will see more ancient DNA projects in the future.

Heber, thanks for your tip about the Chief of the McEgans being DF21+. Oneillabu will be happy with that too. With my Co Galway origins, I am aware of the McEgans, but hadn't looked into their DNA as they claim to be Ui Maine. The O'Kelly of Ui Maine is DF49 though. The tribe of Cian who the O'Kelly ancestor crunched to become Prince of Ui Maine were more probably DF21+. Perhaps you can persuade Mr McEgan to join the R-DF21 project?

The Corcoran sept were, as you have stated before, attached to the Ely O'Carroll chiefs. But your Y-DNA matches the McEgan chiefs? Still DF21+ of course, but a different branch. DF21 on the borders of Connaught, Munster & Leinster is starting to resemble a checkerboard. On the thread Tom O'Connor's Hand of History I posted how we now have the surname Leonard, an anglicisation of O Leannain from Co Galway, who is DF5+. The O Leannain sept traditionally descend from the Six Sogains, a Cruithne remnant who the Ui Maine were unable to expel from Tiaquin Barony. I'm not saying Mr Leonard's DNA is Cruithne. I think not. But it adds another checker to the checkerboard.

Rory

Heber
02-20-2014, 05:32 AM
Rory,

I have sent an eMail to the administrator of Clan Egan DNA Project to clarify the terminal SNP position.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ClanEgan/

It is not surprising that there is an overlap between Clan Egan and Clan Ely O Carroll.
There is a beautiful stone bridge in Birr Castle Gardens over the river Brosna.
On it is an incription (by the McEgans) saying on one side of the Bridge (West) is Clan Egan on the other side (East) is Clan Ely O Carrol. Birr Castle was an Ely O Carroll Castle.

1450

1451

Nearby Redwood Castle in Ballymacegan belonged to the McEgans.

"All descendants of a common ancestor, the MacEgans (name in Irish is MacAodhagain, from the diminutive of Aodh, meaning 'fire' and anglicized Hugh) were the most important of the Brehon families in Ireland. They began as a prominent sept in County Galway, under the O'Kellys. From perhaps the twelfth century on, they became dispersed, attending to the legal affairs of such chiefs as the O'Conors of Connacht, O'Conor Faly, MacCarthy Mor, O'Carroll of Ely, Fitzpatrick of Ossary, O'Farrell Buidhe, and, after the Hibernicisation of the great Norman lord, MacWattin and the Clanrickard Burke. The branch of the Clan Egan that will concern us here, that of Ormond in North Tipperary, grew in influence under the O'Kennedy patronage and by the fifteenth century at least was, in the words of George Cunningham, "perhaps the most notable learned family in all Ireland".

http://www.clanegan.org/heritage/speckled/castles.html

rms2
03-08-2014, 06:57 PM
Here is something newsworthy and extremely interesting. If true, it means that we can infer that Kenneth Mac Alpin was DF41+ (aka CTS6581+, S524+).

I: Patrilinear Descent of Walter the High Steward

Note.- each succeeding generation is the son of the previous one.

24.Ere of Irish Dairiada (Dal naraide)
23.Fergus Mor Mae Ere, d.501
22.Domangart
21. K. Gabran of Dalriada, c.548-558
20.Aedan Mac Gabran, d.608, m. Ygerna de Acqs
19.Eochaid Buide (younger brother of the historical King Arthur)
18.Donald Brec
17.Domangart
16.Eochaid, d.696
15. Eochaid
14. Aed the White (Aed Find)
13.Eochaid the Poisonous, d.781
12. Alpin
11. K. Kenneth MacA]pin [sic]
10. K. Aed (Aeth), d.878
9.Doir, b.870-d.936
8.Murdoch, b.900-d.959
7.Ferguard, b.929-d.980
6.Kenneth, b.960-d.1030
5.Banquo, Thane of Lochaber, b.990-k.1043
4.Fleance, Thane of Lochaber, b.1020-d. c.1064
3.Walter, Thane of Lochaber, b. c.1045-d.1093
2.Alan of Lochaber, b. c. 1088-d. 1 153, father of-
1.WALTER FITZ ALAN, 1st HIGH STEWARD OF SCOTLAND, d. 1177

Here is the link to the very convincing argument:

http://www.mckinneyandstewart.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I2816&tree=McKinneyandStewart

Heber
03-08-2014, 07:39 PM
There are probably several candidates for the McAlpin line including M222 and DF21. With DF41, I guess we won't know for sure until we test the remains in Iona Abbey.

Dal Riatha are associated with M222.

From The Scots A Genetic Journey:

“Did it (the M222 marker) cross the sea with the war bands of Fergus Mor mac Erc and his ancestors? There is uncompromising evidence that it did. More than 6 percent of all Scottish men carry M222, around 150,000 are direct decendents of Niall, the High King of the Irish. The frequency of the marker is very pronounced on the west with 9 per cent and less in the east with 3 per cent on the axis from Galloway to Shetland. It occurs very often amongst men with ancient Scottish surnames and whose family trees can, in some cases, be traced back over three centuries. Those in Scotland with the M222 marker are not recent immigrants and their high incidence and geographic spread indicate a large scale movement of people – probably mainly from Ulster and probably around AD 500”.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-and-scottish-kings/

Siol Alpin are related to Colla Uais who have many names in DF21.

DF21 is a Three Collas signature.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-scottish-clan-siol-alpin/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-genealogies/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-celtic-clans/

http://www.siol-alpin.com/

1580

1581

1582

1583

rms2
03-08-2014, 07:51 PM
If the Stewarts are in fact descended in the y-dna line from Alan of Lochaber, and if that pedigree from Kenneth Mac Alpin is correct, then it can be inferred that Kenneth was DF41+ at least, if not L745+ (that one may have arisen in the Stewart line after Kenneth). There are a couple of ifs involved, obviously. We know the Stewarts are DF41+ because Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, was tested by ScotlandsDNA.

But where is the M222 or DF21 in the y-dna line of Kenneth Mac Alpin? Perhaps you could lay it out clearly. I missed it in the pedigree charts you posted above.

oneillabu
03-08-2014, 07:57 PM
Here is something newsworthy and extremely interesting. If true, it means that we can infer that Kenneth Mac Alpin was DF41+ (aka CTS6581+, S524+).

I: Patrilinear Descent of Walter the High Steward

Note.- each succeeding generation is the son of the previous one.

24.Ere of Irish Dairiada (Dal naraide)
23.Fergus Mor Mae Ere, d.501
22.Domangart
21. K. Gabran of Dalriada, c.548-558
20.Aedan Mac Gabran, d.608, m. Ygerna de Acqs
19.Eochaid Buide (younger brother of the historical King Arthur)
18.Donald Brec
17.Domangart
16.Eochaid, d.696
15. Eochaid
14. Aed the White (Aed Find)
13.Eochaid the Poisonous, d.781
12. Alpin
11. K. Kenneth MacA]pin [sic]
10. K. Aed (Aeth), d.878
9.Doir, b.870-d.936
8.Murdoch, b.900-d.959
7.Ferguard, b.929-d.980
6.Kenneth, b.960-d.1030
5.Banquo, Thane of Lochaber, b.990-k.1043
4.Fleance, Thane of Lochaber, b.1020-d. c.1064
3.Walter, Thane of Lochaber, b. c.1045-d.1093
2.Alan of Lochaber, b. c. 1088-d. 1 153, father of-
1.WALTER FITZ ALAN, 1st HIGH STEWARD OF SCOTLAND, d. 1177

Here is the link to the very convincing argument:

http://www.mckinneyandstewart.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I2816&tree=McKinneyandStewart

The 1467 MS is the oldest Scottish pedigree document so If you look through the various pedigrees descended from Erc the only surname associated with DF41 is McLellan which is simply not enough to support this theory. That is assuming the Kenneth McAlpine was actually descended from Erc however if he was not then this may fit into your theory that he was DF41. My own L720 branch of DF21 seems to tick all the boxes for a descent from Fergus Mor Mac Erc with the following all recorded in the MS1467 pedigrees


Fergus Mor Mac Erc

Clan Chattan - L720 surnames associated with clan chatten

Six matches to Gille Iosa (Gillis)
Four matches to MacIntosh (Mac an Toiseach)
One MacPherson (Son of the Parson)
One Davidson
One McKillian (McQuilkin of Rathlin Island)

Clan MacInnes of Iona L720 matches
Seven MacInnes with a good GD spread confirming the antiquity of the line

Lord of the Isles MacDonald associated with Clan MacInnes that match the MacInnes above
Three MacDonalds
One McCaul (a sept of the Lord of the Isles MacDonalds)

Clan Gille Fhaolain (McNab) L720 matches
Two McLellan's one from North Uist and the other from South Uist
One McClelland (Same name as MacLellan)
One Weir (clan McNab surname)

Muircheartach Mor Mac Erc (Brother of Fergus and ancestor of O'Neill of Ulster)
One O'Neill from Ireland
This O'Neill has markers that are distinct from the Scottish line showing a seperate Irish line, the genetic distance at 67 markers is remarkably consistant at 11 or 12 indicating a common ancestor with the Scottish line of around 1500 years ago .

Other L720 surnames

Colonial cluster stemming from a recent common ancestor, a GD of 10 at 111 markers to McLellan indicate that this group are descended from Scottish McLellan.
Farris
Williams
Singleton

Of 31 people with clear L720 signatures we have 28 who have surnames associated with the line of Erc and the other three are almost certainly descended from a Scottish McLellan and this is clearly the only SNP with this high percentage of surname matches so therefore is by far the best contender for the descendents of this line to date. I am aware that this may change in the future as more people test but for now I am sticking to my guns that L720 is the line of Fergus Mor Mac Erc


http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/

rms2
03-08-2014, 08:12 PM
I don't really want to wade into the morass of claims and counter claims, but do you have any actual evidence beyond surnames alleged to be associated with descent from Fergus Mor Mac Erc?

The idea that Kenneth Mac Alpin might have been DF41+ is not my theory. If the info at the link I posted a couple of posts back is true, then it can be inferred that Kenneth was DF41+. Of course, that is predicated on the info being true, i.e., that the Stewarts are descended in their y-dna line from Alan of Lochaber and that Alan of Lochaber was in turn descended in his y-dna line from Kenneth Mac Alpin.

It seems a fairly strong argument, since we have a confirmed DF41+ result from an actual scion of the Stewart royal house, Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, who is a direct descendant of Charles II.

Honestly, I do not know whether Alan of Lochaber's pedigree from Kenneth Mac Alpin is correct or not, but at least there is some substance to the y-dna result for the Royal House of Stewart.

Here is that link again:

http://www.mckinneyandstewart.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I2816&tree=McKinneyandStewart

alan
03-08-2014, 08:50 PM
The DNA of the Dalriadan's will be very hard to pin down. The Irish Dalriadan kingdom left no known Irish surnames of lineages that remained in Ireland and that trace back to the dynasty of the kingdom.

The Scottish clan genealogies are problematic. Unlike in Ireland, the Viking settlement of the west of Scotland profoundly shook up the clans in that area and written records essentially cease. Consequently there is no continuous trail of annals or genealogies and there is a worrying gap say between about 800 and 1200 or later where there is incredibly little evidence. I know generally academics consider that the Scottish highland clan genealogies for the generations of those 400 years that were retrospectively written down could well have a considerable amount of fabrications.

rms2
03-08-2014, 09:00 PM
Ancient y-dna might provide some answers, but it isn't likely they'll open up Kenneth Mac Alpin's tomb to obtain a sample.

alan
03-08-2014, 11:20 PM
i have heard people mention that they should open up the graves of this or that king on Iona to find dark age kings in the royal cemetery of Releig Orain but there are no in-situ grave markers of that date. Its only many centuries later that later Medieval carved graves markers or sarcophagi exist for clan chiefs in the abbey. They would have to do a general excavation of what is thought to be the royal cemetery area and try and work out who was who but unless some carved markers or metalwork remain below the ground indicating who was who and. The Dalriadans and early Gaelic kings of Scotland were Christians so there shouldnt be grave goods so all they might have is radiocarbon dates which usually dont give a narrow enough date band to be sure who was who given that there was a whole sequence of kings and there could often have been a handful in every century. Mind you it would still be amazing if they ever tried. I am not sure how disturbed by later burials the royal. Anyone interested in Scottish archaeology might be interested in the Canmore website which has the sites and monuments record of Scotland and all sorts of information on all sites in Scotland

http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/21617/details/iona+st+oran+s+chapel+and+reilig+odhrain+burial+gr ound/&biblio=more

Anyone interested in the early period of the history of Iona, Columba etc should read Adomnan's Life of Columba written c. 690AD and contains the first reference to the Loch Ness monster!

https://archive.org/details/lifeofsaintcolum00adamuoft







Ancient y-dna might provide some answers, but it isn't likely they'll open up Kenneth's Mac Alpin's tomb to obtain a sample.

Heber
03-09-2014, 09:02 AM
Here is a genealogy from the McDonalds.
1589
They claim descent from the Clan Colla and Dal Riada.
The Clan Colla project has identified the most common SNP as DF21.
Here is the map of matching surnames for DF21 in Scotland.
1590
Here is a genealogy of Dal Riada.
1591
I tend to agree with oneillabu that our best option is to find out which clans match which terminal branch with Big Y and FGC and work our way back up the tree identifying the many false pedigrees and eventually creating a newer clan map based on DNA. This will not be easy and it will not be quick.

rms2
03-09-2014, 01:50 PM
From what I have read, Colla Uais lived and reigned in the 4th century, not the 5th century, as that first pedigree (perhaps erroneously) shows.

I don't personally claim descent from any Scottish kings, at least, not in my y-dna line, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But it seems to me a few surnames here and there with a very tenuous claim to descent from Fergus Mor Mac Erc, a man who lived in the 5th century, is a pretty shaky foundation.

Like I said, I do not know if the pedigree of Alan of Lochaber is good all the way to Kenneth Mac Alpin, or if the part of it from Kenneth to Fergus is any good, but, if it is, then the y-dna haplogroup of that line can be inferred as DF41+ because we actually have a confirmed DF41+ result from a known y-dna descendant of King Charles II (Stewart): Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch. That seems to me much more solid than an argument, from a few surnames, that is based on genealogies written half a millennium, at the earliest, after the fact. And that argument rests merely on the surnames themselves, not on any individual possessor or possessors of the surnames with an unbroken pedigree to Fergus.

Admittedly, the Alan of Lochaber pedigree itself must have been compiled long after the fact, as well, but in the case of the Stewarts you have a family that actually was a part of Scottish royalty, and a test result for a confirmed member of that royal family.

Is there anyone else with as solid a claim who has tested DF21+ or M222+ or anything else?

Merely possessing the surname of a clan claiming descent from Fergus is not a very compelling argument, especially if not everyone with that surname shares the same y haplogroup, subclade, and haplotype.

oneillabu
03-09-2014, 09:25 PM
I don't really want to wade into the morass of claims and counter claims, but do you have any actual evidence beyond surnames alleged to be associated with descent from Fergus Mor Mac Erc?

The idea that Kenneth Mac Alpin might have been DF41+ is not my theory. If the info at the link I posted a couple of posts back is true, then it can be inferred that Kenneth was DF41+. Of course, that is predicated on the info being true, i.e., that the Stewarts are descended in their y-dna line from Alan of Lochaber and that Alan of Lochaber was in turn descended in his y-dna line from Kenneth Mac Alpin.

It seems a fairly strong argument, since we have a confirmed DF41+ result from an actual scion of the Stewart royal house, Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, who is a direct descendant of Charles II.

Honestly, I do not know whether Alan of Lochaber's pedigree from Kenneth Mac Alpin is correct or not, but at least there is some substance to the y-dna result for the Royal House of Stewart.

Here is that link again:

http://www.mckinneyandstewart.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I2816&tree=McKinneyandStewart

Accoding to O'Hart the Royal Stewarts are descended from Corc as listed below


72.-THE STEM OFTHE" STEWART"FAMILY.

CORC, No. 89 on the stem of the "Mac Carthy Mor" pedigree, was
married to Mong-fionn, daughter of Feredach Fionn (also called Fionn
Cormac), king of the Picts. Main Leamhna, one of the sons by that
marriage, remained in Scotland with his grandfather, Feredach Fionn,
who gave him land to inhabit, called Leamhain (anglicised Lennox), which
his posterity enjoyed ever since with the appellation or title of Mor Mhain Leamhna
i,e. " Great Steward of Lennox "; and at length became Kings
of Scotland and of England. This term" Steward" is the origin of the
sirnames Stewart and Stuart.


89. Corc: King of Munster. U4. Alen, the younger: hif; sou,
90. Main Leamhna: his son.
91. Donal: his son
92. Muredach: his son
93. Alen (or Alan), the elder, first Great Steward of Lennox, his son a quo Stewart
94. Alan the younger, his son
95. Amhailgadh (Awly) the elder, his son
96. Awly the younger, his son
97. Walter, his son
98. Donogh, (Doncan, Duncan), his son

Here the old Irish copy of the Genealogy of this Royal Family is defective,
Some leaves being either torn or worn out with time, wherein the pedigree (in al1
likelihood) was traced down to the time of the writing of that book some hundreds of
years past; and no other copy extant to supply it, I am (therefore) necessitated to
follow the Scottish writers, where they begin to take notice of this noble and princely
family, in the person of Bianco, who was lineally descended from the above-named
Donogh or Duncan, who was Thane of Lochquaber; was one of the chief nobility of
Scotland; and near Kinsman to the good Kmg Duncan, who was murdered by the
usurper Macbeth, as were this Bianco and all his children except his Son Fleance,"-
Annals of the four masters~, .
[As this Bianco Was murdered by Macbeth, he must have been contemporary
with his near kinsman the good King Duncan," who is No, 108 on the
"Lineal Descent of the Royal family"; we may therefore reckon Bianco as, at least,
No. 107 on this family stem.]



107. Bianco, lineally descended
from Duncan, who is No. 98 on this
stem.
108. Fleance: his son.
109. Walter: his son.
110 Alan Stewart: his son. This
Alan went to the Holy Land with
Godfrey of Boloign (now H Bou.
logne") and Robert, duke of Normandy,
A.D. 1099; where he behaved
himself with much valour,
for the recovery of Jerusalem.


The British Royal family also claim to be descended from the Kings of Leinster line through the Stewarts and this pedigree is the subject of more research than any other other.


This is just another example pedigrees being tailored to suit whatever Royal claim was most advantageous.

oneillabu
03-09-2014, 10:55 PM
I don't really want to wade into the morass of claims and counter claims, but do you have any actual evidence beyond surnames alleged to be associated with descent from Fergus Mor Mac Erc?

The idea that Kenneth Mac Alpin might have been DF41+ is not my theory. If the info at the link I posted a couple of posts back is true, then it can be inferred that Kenneth was DF41+. Of course, that is predicated on the info being true, i.e., that the Stewarts are descended in their y-dna line from Alan of Lochaber and that Alan of Lochaber was in turn descended in his y-dna line from Kenneth Mac Alpin.

It seems a fairly strong argument, since we have a confirmed DF41+ result from an actual scion of the Stewart royal house, Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, who is a direct descendant of Charles II.

Honestly, I do not know whether Alan of Lochaber's pedigree from Kenneth Mac Alpin is correct or not, but at least there is some substance to the y-dna result for the Royal House of Stewart.

Here is that link again:

http://www.mckinneyandstewart.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I2816&tree=McKinneyandStewart

The genetic distances at 67 markers for DF41 having a lineal descent from the Dalriada Kings of Ireland do not add up. I tested the distances at 67 markers from one of the oldest Stewart matches (82598) who has a pedigree from the year 1681 and compared them to 16 other DF41 people who shared the common value of 10 Y-GATA-H4 which all Stewarts have.

Creer distance at 67 = 24
Nuckolls distance at 67 = 28
Mackenzie distance at 67 = 21
Edwards distance at 67 = 23
Tuite distance at 67 = 26
McCauly distance at 67 = 20
Salmon distance at 67 = 24
Fisher distance at 67 = 22
Moore distance at 67 = 22
Dwyer distance at 67 = 29
O’Hare distance at 67 = 27
Hall distance at 67 = 30
Duffy distance at 67 = 20
Carroll distance at 67 = 23
Black distance at 67 = 21
Dowie distance at 67 = 20

Average GD at 67 = 24

This points to a common DF41 ancestor around 2400 years ago for this group; it would seem that the Royal Stewarts stem from an individual line that is very old.

Now compare that to the Genetic distances from O’Neill to the various L720 matches

McInnes 1 distance at 67 = 13
McInnes 2 distance at 67 = 12
Farris distance at 67 = 13
Davidson distance at 67 = 11
McPherson distance at 67 = 11
Singleton distance at 67 = 11
McLellan distance at 67 = 11
Gillis 1 distance at 67 = 11
Gillis 2 distance at 67 = 11

Average GD at 67 = 12 (11.55)

This is the correct distance you would expect from a common ancestor from around 1500 years ago and is right on the money for the Kings of Dalriada as the L720 surnames suggest.

Rory Cain
03-10-2014, 12:22 AM
At abandonment of courtesy recognition in 2003, those previously afforded courtesy recognition included:
Chiefs of the Name
O'Brien, Prince of Thomond – Connor O'Brien (Clare).
O'Callaghan – Don Juan O'Callaghan (Spain).
O'Donoghue of the Glens, Prince of Glenflesk – Geoffrey Paul Vincent O'Donoghue (Offaly).
O'Conor Don, Prince of Connacht – Desmond O'Conor (England).
MacDermot, Prince of Coolavin – Nial MacDermot (Kildare).
O'Donovan – Morgan O'Donovan (Cork).
Fox – John W Fox (Australia).
McGillycuddy of the Reeks – Donough McGillycuddy (South Africa).
O'Morchoe – Major-General David O'Morchoe (Wexford).
O'Neill of Clanaboy – Hugo Ricciardi O'Neill (Portugal).
O'Grady of Kilballyowen – Henry Thomas Standish O'Grady (France).
O'Kelly of Gallagh and Tycooly – Walter L. O'Kelly (Dublin).
MacMurrough-Kavanagh, Prince of Leinster – Cathal Cavanagh (Ireland).[1]
O'Donnell of Tyrconnell – Fr. Hugh O'Donel, O.F.M. (a priest, formerly a missionary in Zimbabwe, now retired to Ireland)
O'Doherty of Inishowen – Ramon O'Dogherty (Spain).
MacDonnell of the Glens – Randal MacDonnell (Ireland).
O'Rourke of Breifne – Geoffrey O'Rorke (Ireland).
Designation dormant
O'Toole of Fer Tire

Dubhthach
03-10-2014, 12:12 PM
At abandonment of courtesy recognition in 2003, those previously afforded courtesy recognition included:
Chiefs of the Name
O'Brien, Prince of Thomond – Connor O'Brien (Clare).
O'Callaghan – Don Juan O'Callaghan (Spain).
O'Donoghue of the Glens, Prince of Glenflesk – Geoffrey Paul Vincent O'Donoghue (Offaly).
O'Conor Don, Prince of Connacht – Desmond O'Conor (England).
MacDermot, Prince of Coolavin – Nial MacDermot (Kildare).
O'Donovan – Morgan O'Donovan (Cork).
Fox – John W Fox (Australia).
McGillycuddy of the Reeks – Donough McGillycuddy (South Africa).
O'Morchoe – Major-General David O'Morchoe (Wexford).
O'Neill of Clanaboy – Hugo Ricciardi O'Neill (Portugal).
O'Grady of Kilballyowen – Henry Thomas Standish O'Grady (France).
O'Kelly of Gallagh and Tycooly – Walter L. O'Kelly (Dublin).
MacMurrough-Kavanagh, Prince of Leinster – Cathal Cavanagh (Ireland).[1]
O'Donnell of Tyrconnell – Fr. Hugh O'Donel, O.F.M. (a priest, formerly a missionary in Zimbabwe, now retired to Ireland)
O'Doherty of Inishowen – Ramon O'Dogherty (Spain).
MacDonnell of the Glens – Randal MacDonnell (Ireland).
O'Rourke of Breifne – Geoffrey O'Rorke (Ireland).
Designation dormant
O'Toole of Fer Tire

That was due to the "McCarthy Mór" (Mac Carthaigh Mór) scandal. Several of the above are valid lineages, the prime example been the O'Conor Don and the O'Brien.

rms2
03-10-2014, 07:15 PM
The genetic distances at 67 markers for DF41 having a lineal descent from the Dalriada Kings of Ireland do not add up. I tested the distances at 67 markers from one of the oldest Stewart matches (82598) who has a pedigree from the year 1681 and compared them to 16 other DF41 people who shared the common value of 10 Y-GATA-H4 which all Stewarts have.

Creer distance at 67 = 24
Nuckolls distance at 67 = 28
Mackenzie distance at 67 = 21
Edwards distance at 67 = 23
Tuite distance at 67 = 26
McCauly distance at 67 = 20
Salmon distance at 67 = 24
Fisher distance at 67 = 22
Moore distance at 67 = 22
Dwyer distance at 67 = 29
O’Hare distance at 67 = 27
Hall distance at 67 = 30
Duffy distance at 67 = 20
Carroll distance at 67 = 23
Black distance at 67 = 21
Dowie distance at 67 = 20

Average GD at 67 = 24

This points to a common DF41 ancestor around 2400 years ago for this group; it would seem that the Royal Stewarts stem from an individual line that is very old.


Certainly you realize that is an obviously faulty argument, since no one is claiming that all of DF41 descends from Kenneth Mac Alpin, merely that the Stewarts do. All that would be necessary is for Kenneth to have been DF41+ and for the Stewart y-dna line to descend from him.

It's not my claim; it was made by the writer of the piece at the link I provided.



Now compare that to the Genetic distances from O’Neill to the various L720 matches

McInnes 1 distance at 67 = 13
McInnes 2 distance at 67 = 12
Farris distance at 67 = 13
Davidson distance at 67 = 11
McPherson distance at 67 = 11
Singleton distance at 67 = 11
McLellan distance at 67 = 11
Gillis 1 distance at 67 = 11
Gillis 2 distance at 67 = 11

Average GD at 67 = 12 (11.55)

This is the correct distance you would expect from a common ancestor from around 1500 years ago and is right on the money for the Kings of Dalriada as the L720 surnames suggest.

Another very flawed argument. It assumes the consequent, i.e., that the persons bearing those surnames descend from the kings of Dalriada and that therefore the kings of Dalriada were L720+.

Unless all of the bearers of those surnames are L720+, you are cherry picking those that are and eliminating other possible candidates. In other words, are all McInneses L720+? All Farrises? All Davidsons, etc.?

And unless at least one among those L720+ has an unbroken pedigree to the Dalriadic y-dna line, you are merely speculating.

Besides, what do you mean by "O'Neill"? Not the Ui Neill, surely?

I think there may be other, far better arguments against the claim that the Stewarts descend from Kenneth Mac Alpin, but your argument from bearers of a handful of surnames who happen to be L720+ strikes me as not at all compelling.

rms2
03-10-2014, 07:26 PM
Accoding to O'Hart the Royal Stewarts are descended from Corc as listed below


72.-THE STEM OFTHE" STEWART"FAMILY.

CORC, No. 89 on the stem of the "Mac Carthy Mor" pedigree, was
married to Mong-fionn, daughter of Feredach Fionn (also called Fionn
Cormac), king of the Picts. Main Leamhna, one of the sons by that
marriage, remained in Scotland with his grandfather, Feredach Fionn,
who gave him land to inhabit, called Leamhain (anglicised Lennox), which
his posterity enjoyed ever since with the appellation or title of Mor Mhain Leamhna
i,e. " Great Steward of Lennox "; and at length became Kings
of Scotland and of England. This term" Steward" is the origin of the
sirnames Stewart and Stuart.


89. Corc: King of Munster. U4. Alen, the younger: hif; sou,
90. Main Leamhna: his son.
91. Donal: his son
92. Muredach: his son
93. Alen (or Alan), the elder, first Great Steward of Lennox, his son a quo Stewart
94. Alan the younger, his son
95. Amhailgadh (Awly) the elder, his son
96. Awly the younger, his son
97. Walter, his son
98. Donogh, (Doncan, Duncan), his son

Here the old Irish copy of the Genealogy of this Royal Family is defective,
Some leaves being either torn or worn out with time, wherein the pedigree (in al1
likelihood) was traced down to the time of the writing of that book some hundreds of
years past; and no other copy extant to supply it, I am (therefore) necessitated to
follow the Scottish writers, where they begin to take notice of this noble and princely
family, in the person of Bianco, who was lineally descended from the above-named
Donogh or Duncan, who was Thane of Lochquaber; was one of the chief nobility of
Scotland; and near Kinsman to the good Kmg Duncan, who was murdered by the
usurper Macbeth, as were this Bianco and all his children except his Son Fleance,"-
Annals of the four masters~, .
[As this Bianco Was murdered by Macbeth, he must have been contemporary
with his near kinsman the good King Duncan," who is No, 108 on the
"Lineal Descent of the Royal family"; we may therefore reckon Bianco as, at least,
No. 107 on this family stem.]



107. Bianco, lineally descended
from Duncan, who is No. 98 on this
stem.
108. Fleance: his son.
109. Walter: his son.
110 Alan Stewart: his son. This
Alan went to the Holy Land with
Godfrey of Boloign (now H Bou.
logne") and Robert, duke of Normandy,
A.D. 1099; where he behaved
himself with much valour,
for the recovery of Jerusalem.


The British Royal family also claim to be descended from the Kings of Leinster line through the Stewarts and this pedigree is the subject of more research than any other other.


Very interesting. Thanks for that.



This is just another example pedigrees being tailored to suit whatever Royal claim was most advantageous.

You do realize the same thing could be said of any pedigree claiming descent from the kings of Dalriada, including clan pedigrees written over 500 years after the fact?

oneillabu
03-10-2014, 11:29 PM
Very interesting. Thanks for that.


You do realize the same thing could be said of any pedigree claiming descent from the kings of Dalriada, including clan pedigrees written over 500 years after the fact?

Of Course, this is where DNA research comes in used in conjunction with the existing pedigrees, an example of this is the McCarthy Mor study which looked at a number of surnames and not any individual claiment to decided what DNA type was the most likely candidate for the origin of the progentator of that line based on the accumalated data. This is the way forward in my opinion and should be applied to all the differant lines we will look at here.

Rory Cain
03-11-2014, 05:49 AM
That was due to the "McCarthy Mór" (Mac Carthaigh Mór) scandal. Several of the above are valid lineages, the prime example been the O'Conor Don and the O'Brien.

Quite so. The Irish Chiefswatch website divides recognitions into two categories:

(A) Recognitions 1944-45, Properly Verified

1 Mac Dermot, Prince of Coolavin, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder Roderick (Rory) Charles McDermot of Dublin.

2 Mac Gillycuddy of the Reeks, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder Dermot Patrick Donogh McGillycuddy of Northamptonshire.

3 O Callaghan, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder Juan O'Callaghan of Barcelona.

4 O Conor Don, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder Desmond Roderic O'Conor of Sussex.

5 O Donoghue of the Glen or Glens, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder Geoffrey Paul Vincent O'Donoghue of Offaly.

6 O Donovan, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder (Morgan Gerald) Daniel O'Donovan of Cork.

7 O Morchoe, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder David Nial Creagh O'Morchoe of Wexford.

8 O Neill of Clannaboy, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder Hugo O'Neill of Portugal.

9 The Fox, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder Douglas Fox of Australia (reported to have succeeded his father John William Fox who died about 2007?).

10 O Toole of Fer Tire, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, title currently dormant.

11 O Grady of Kilballyowen, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder Henry Thomas Standish O'Grady of London.

12 O Kelly of Gallagh and Tycooly, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder Walter Lionel O'Kelly of Dublin.

13 O Brien of Thomond, recognised 1944 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder Sir Conor Myles John O'Brien, Lord Inchiquin, of Clare.

14 Mac Morrough Kavanagh, recognised 1945 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, title formerly declared to be dormant, but after the rediscovery of 'missing' correspondence in 2000, the current holder William Butler Kavanagh of Wales was belatedly acknowledged.

15 O Donnell of Tirconnell, recognised 1945 by Chief Herald MacLysaght, current holder Fr Hugh O'Donnell OFM of Zimbabwe.

(B) Recognitions 1989-95, Unverified, Bogus or Questionable

16 O Doherty of Inishowen, recognised c1990 by Chief Herald Begley, current claimant Ramón O'Dogherty of Spain; there are fairly persuasive secondary published pedigrees and this is the least questionable of the post-1989 recognitions; in 2010 the claimant provided to the writer copies of primary documentation which tends to validate his right to the title (writer's interim report of 25 April 2001, due to be revised); significant portions of the official file remain closed, which constitutes the principal obstacle to resolving this case.

17 O Long of Garranelongy, recognised 1989 by Chief Herald Begley, current claimant Denis C Long of Cork; no documentary evidence has been found to prove the claim to chiefship (writer's report of 26 April 2000); significant portions of the official file remain closed, but crucial documents are stated to be 'missing'.

18 Maguire of Fermanagh, recognised 1991 by Chief Herald Begley, claimant Terence J Maguire of Dublin, a grand-uncle of Terence MacCarthy below, died 19 February 2005; there is no documentary evidence whatsoever to support the claim to chiefship, only 'the tradition of the family' (writer's report of 9 September 1999); counter claims to the chiefship were submitted by Hugh A McGuire of New Zealand and Robert C Maguire of South Carolina; significant portions of the official files remain closed, but the contents of the earliest file are said to be minimal, with the possibility that key documents have again gone 'missing'.

19 Mac Carthy Mór, recognised 1992 by Chief Herald Begley and Deputy Chief Herald Gillespie, despite objections (relevant correspondence now 'missing'); recognition withdrawn from Terence MacCarthy of Morocco in July 1999 following public exposure of the falsity of his claims (writer's report of 16 June 1999); a counter-claim was submitted by Barry Trant MacCarthy of Wiltshire, a descendant of the earlier self-styled chief Samuel Trant MacCarthy, but the latter's great-grand nephew, Liam Trant MacCarthy of Australia, is now reckoned to be the most senior heir and the leading claimant to chiefship; significant portions of the official files remain closed.

20 O Carroll of Eile O Carroll, recognised 1993 by Chief Herald Begley, the claimant Frederick J O'Carroll of California passed away in 2010; there are questions concerning the validity of the recognition of this chief (writer's interim report of 25 April 2001), and primary documentation to validate the holder's right to the title has yet to be produced; significant portions of the official file remain closed.

21 O Rourke of Breifne, recognised 1993 by Deputy Chief Herald Gillespie, current claimant Geoffrey P C O'Rorke of London, who does not appear to be the senior male descendant of the last inaugurated chief, and therefore should not have been recognised (writer's interim report of 25 April 2001); significant portions of the official file remain closed.

22 Mac Donnell of the Glens, recognised 1995 by Chief Herald Begley, current claimant Randal McDonnell of Dublin, who again is not the senior representative of his family and therefore should not have been recognised as chief (writer's interim report of 25 April 2001); significant portions of the official file remain closed.

23 Joyce of Joyce Country, although never registered as a recognised chief, the current claimant John Joyce of Clare?, was introduced as such to President Robinson by Chief Herald Begley in 1991, and his banner fomerly hung with those of other chiefs in the State Heraldic Museum; no official file appears to exist and pedigree information is not forthcoming.

Heber
03-11-2014, 07:50 AM
I believe one of the best ways to map the Irish clan names to the Phylogenetic tree is as follows:

Examine the existing Irish Genealogies:

1597

Identify the reliable sources of Irish Genealogies. There are over 20 good sources. I would not include O'Hart in the primary list.

1598

Assemble good English print translations of the original sources.

1599

Scan, OCR, Index and convert to Tree format eg. GEDCOM, WikiTree.

1600


Map the Ancient Genealogies to the Updated Phylogenetic Tree.
Work from the external branches back up the tree.

1601

If this provides good results extent to Scottish and eventually Welsh pedigrees.

As mentioned earlier, it will not be easy and it will not be quick.

rms2
03-11-2014, 06:06 PM
I wrote Dr. Jim Wilson of ScotlandsDNA, etc., and ran the alleged Stewart pedigree from Alan of Lochaber by him. He replied that it is interesting but in his opinion the MacGregors have the most likely claim to descent from the kings of Dalriada, and they are L1335+>L1065+. The MacGregor Clan claims descent from Griogar, a son of Alpin. Given the frequency of L1065 in Scotland, he could be right.

Anyway, barring the recovery of ancient y-dna from the remains of Kenneth Mac Alpin or someone else in that y line, it seems we never will know the truth.

Rory Cain
03-12-2014, 03:00 AM
I wrote Dr. Jim Wilson of ScotlandsDNA, etc., and ran the alleged Stewart pedigree from Alan of Lochaber by him. He replied that it is interesting but in his opinion the MacGregors have the most likely claim to descent from the kings of Dalriada, and they are L1335+>L1065+. The MacGregor Clan claims descent from Griogar, a son of Alpin. Given the frequency of L1065 in Scotland, he could be right.

Anyway, barring the recovery of ancient y-dna from the remains of Kenneth Mac Alpin or someone else in that y line, it seems we never will know the truth.

All the clans of the so-called Siol Alpin claim descent from Alpin. These clans include:
Grant, supposedly descended from Gregor mor Macgregor, ca 12th C;
Macalpin;
Macduffie aka Macphie;
Macgregor, supposedly descended from Griogar son of Alpin, as stated above;
Mackinnon, supposedly descended from Fingon son of Gregor, son of Kenneth Mac Alpin, King of Scots. Note: other versions of their genealogy exist;
Macnab, descended from a Celtic Abbot of Glendockart in the reign of David 1;
Macquarrie, supposedly descended from Guiare son of Fingon, ancestor of the Mackinnons.

The truth...? Who knows! I'm not sure that digging up the remains of Kenneth Mac Alpin will settle the matter to the satisfaction of all. It is difficult to see much commonality between the clans of Siol Alpin. All the above clans will be wanting his DNA to match theirs and not everyone can be a winner.

Oneillabu offers perhaps the best way forward in collecting the DNA of the clans and allaying it in the way the McCarthy study did. While the McCarthy Mor line is extinct in the male line, the McCarthy Reagh is possibly the next ranking chieftain of the clan and his DNA matched a good percentage of the McCarthy clan. Calculation of the coalescence timeframe back to the common ancestor Carthaigh tended to rule out the other main DNA contender.

rms2
03-12-2014, 07:58 AM
Honestly, I do not see how Oneillabu's method is any kind of solution at all when you have all these clans and surnames claiming descent from the same kings of Dalriada, with conflicting pedigrees, and so many of those bearing the different surnames also belonging to different y haplogroups and/or subclades. They do not all belong to the same y-dna line, so most of them are wrong, if not all of them. Oneillabu's method conveniently attributes the Dalriadic y-dna line to his own subclade. He is not exactly a dispassionate, independent investigator.

I personally don't care all that much, since I do not claim descent in my y-dna line from any of these folks.

Rory Cain
03-12-2014, 11:24 PM
Honestly, I do not see how Oneillabu's method is any kind of solution at all when you have all these clans and surnames claiming descent from the same kings of Dalriada, with conflicting pedigrees, and so many of those bearing the different surnames also belonging to different y haplogroups and/or subclades. They do not all belong to the same y-dna line, so most of them are wrong, if not all of them. Oneillabu's method conveniently attributes the Dalriadic y-dna line to his own subclade. He is not exactly a dispassionate, independent investigator.

I personally don't care all that much, since I do not claim descent in my y-dna line from any of these folks.

Oneillabu admits his bias, that he would like to fit his own line in there. So he is upfront about where he is coming from. That's better than a hidden agenda. He can be, er... shall we say "passionate" and that can offend. Perhaps he has offended you. I have disagreed with his views in the past, but at the same time I have to admit a liking for his youthful enthusiasm. One may take offence at HOW he says things but that's no reason to discard WHAT he says.

You have outlined above sound reasons (conflicting claims, fabricated genealogies, etc) as to why not to rely solely on the DNA of chiefs with paper pedigrees, which was how this thread started out. You have given some good reasons to follow something more like what oneillabu now suggests. I hope I do not offend you but from reading your post it wouldn't appear that you and oneillabu are so far apart philosophically. The McCarthy DNA study was not oneillabu's, BTW, and shouldn't be discarded just because oneillabu refers to it. The McCarthy DNA study started out with nothing, as we do, and patiently built up a body of DNA evidence sufficient to distinguish trends, splits between DNA types, ancestral coalescence dates, etc and draw some well reasoned conclusions. I doubt that everyone was or is happy with those conclusions. But they appear reasonable and are based on the evidence.

If you have a better method, I am open to it. I confess to female-line descents from McCarthy, McKinnon, McQuarrie and other clans whose names have appeared in this thread. But as we are talking Y-DNA and my descent is female-line, I am neutral regarding Y-DNA and just curious to see where the Y-DNA leads. I have a particular interest in those DF21 lines now attached to the Eoganachta of Munster, which includes my own male line. Dare I risk saying that should oneillabu's thesis be proved wrong it may prove to be his line too. That's a risk that oneillabu probably knows he is taking in pursuing the same methodology as the McCarthy DNA study. This could get interesting for all of us, despite any disagreements along the way!

oneillabu
03-13-2014, 01:08 AM
Honestly, I do not see how Oneillabu's method is any kind of solution at all when you have all these clans and surnames claiming descent from the same kings of Dalriada, with conflicting pedigrees, and so many of those bearing the different surnames also belonging to different y haplogroups and/or subclades. They do not all belong to the same y-dna line, so most of them are wrong, if not all of them. Oneillabu's method conveniently attributes the Dalriadic y-dna line to his own subclade. He is not exactly a dispassionate, independent investigator.

I personally don't care all that much, since I do not claim descent in my y-dna line from any of these folks.

I am not on a personal crusade; rather I am seeking the truth regarding Niall of the nine hostages. The fact that my own DNA is the most likely candidate to date allied with my surname is irrelevant, I would pursue equally an M222 claim or otherwise if the evidence stacked up (which it does not) because this would then allow me to redirect my attentions elsewhere for my own research.

I have not worked on YDNA with a long time because I have been working on my paper pedigree in conjunction with Family Finder DNA which is really beginning to bear fruit, you see I don’t think I am descended from the O’Neill’s of Ulster, I KNOW I AM. Here is an example of some of my Family Finder matches

Doris Greaves 5th Cousin – Lord O’Neill from Ulster in her pedigree chart
Dr Gary Brown 5th Cousin – descended form Henry Neely Ulster (1698)
Sherman Warren 5th Cousin – descended form Thomas Neely Ulster (1695)
Barbara Lake Peters 5th Cousin – O’Neill from NI in her surname list

I have two Fourth cousin matches to the D’Armond family who emigrated from Ulster to America in the 1730’s from the exact same area in Antrim where the O’Neill’s of Clannboy were recorded from the 1650’s until around 1720. This match is from the first marriage of James Diarmond who was born in the same Antrim parish as the O’Neill’s in 1710 and his first wife’s is almost certainly an O’Neill hence the match

I have four separate 5th Cousin matches to a people who share ancestry with a Mendenhall the third who was married to an Elizabeth Maris (Morris) who had ancestors in the exact same area of Antrim as the D’Armond / O’Neill. The O’Neill’s of Antrim were kinsmen to the O’Neill’s of Ivowen and this was recorded by a Family Priest who mentioned in his memoirs a visit from HIS KINSMEN FROM ANTRIM ON HORSBACK, in reality they were probably one and the same line.
I could go on and on but I think I have made my point.

If it looks like a duck and quacks then it is a duck, you may wish it to be something else but it will never change regardless of what spin is put on it.

In my opinion which is based solely on the facts which have been deduced from the surname matches to the recorded Scottish and Irish pedigrees and combined with Family Finder matches which link my line to the Ulster O’Neill’s then L720 is the correct DNA of St Columba and therefore also Niall of the Nine hostages.

RGM
03-13-2014, 02:55 AM
I'm not sure I follow. You're using Family Finder results as evidence of something along your paternal line? The two things are completely different. Everyone with roots in Ulster is likely descended from O'Neills, that has no bearing on your paternal line. I have zero Family Finder matches who have my surname listed in their profile (and several who do list O'Neill), but I've confirmed my line through Y-DNA matches who do share my surname. One thing is not related to the other.

Not to mention that the relationship estimates from any company relating to autosomal matches are completely fabricated once you get beyond close family.

Heber
03-13-2014, 10:07 AM
If it looks like a duck and quacks then it is a duck, you may wish it to be something else but it will never change regardless of what spin is put on it.



I tend to follow this method.
If we map matching surnames to the Phylogenetic tree we get a picture which will be clear to people familiar with Irish history and clan history.

1615

If we then map SNPs to geographic regions we can see familiar patterns emerge.

1616

1617

1618

1619

There are exceptions of course such as McCarthy and McGregor and there are overlaps between SNPs however general patterns can be detected.

rms2
03-13-2014, 12:08 PM
I am not on a personal crusade; rather I am seeking the truth regarding Niall of the nine hostages. The fact that my own DNA is the most likely candidate to date allied with my surname is irrelevant, I would pursue equally an M222 claim or otherwise if the evidence stacked up (which it does not) because this would then allow me to redirect my attentions elsewhere for my own research . . .

If it looks like a duck and quacks then it is a duck, you may wish it to be something else but it will never change regardless of what spin is put on it . . .

In my opinion which is based solely on the facts which have been deduced from the surname matches to the recorded Scottish and Irish pedigrees and combined with Family Finder matches which link my line to the Ulster O’Neill’s then L720 is the correct DNA of St Columba and therefore also Niall of the Nine hostages.

I don't "wish it to be" anything. I have no wishes at all in the matter of Niall or the kings of Dalriada, since I don't claim descent from any of them. You apparently do have wishes in that regard, which is why the fact that you are arguing for the candidacy of your own subclade is very relevant. You might be right, but you have to prove it.

I don't mean to offend, but I don't see how you have made anything you want me to regard as a duck look or sound like a duck.

There are competing claims with regard to the kings of Dalriada; they all seem to me as likely to be false as any of them is likely to be true. Your argument strikes me as circular, because one has first to assume the consequent, i.e., that within your subclade the bearers of the group of surnames you have assembled for your argument all descend from Fergus Mor. One has first to assume that before the confluence of their haplotypes is any kind of evidence.

If all the surnames, or even most of the surnames, with claims on descent from the kings of Dalriada were turning out as belonging to one subclade, with a distinctive haplotype, like, for example, the case of Irish Type III, L226, and the Dalcassians, that would be one thing; but I do not see that you have assembled anything like that.

oneillabu
03-13-2014, 03:23 PM
I'm not sure I follow. You're using Family Finder results as evidence of something along your paternal line? The two things are completely different. Everyone with roots in Ulster is likely descended from O'Neills, that has no bearing on your paternal line. I have zero Family Finder matches who have my surname listed in their profile (and several who do list O'Neill), but I've confirmed my line through Y-DNA matches who do share my surname. One thing is not related to the other.

Not to mention that the relationship estimates from any company relating to autosomal matches are completely fabricated once you get beyond close family.

First of all, to compare M222 to L720 is wrong, they are completely different. Of course you have Autosomal FF matches to O’Neill’s because there are vast amounts of M222 all over Ireland and Ulster and also all over Britain as well as the continent so the law of averages says that there will be some O’Neill’s amongst them. There are M222 people who have hundreds of matches to people with different surnames and at least one case with over a thousand matches within the timeframe of surnames that are all different surnames. I myself have at least four Autosomal matches to people who are M222+ and these are all Anglo Norman surnames so this is an inevitable connection given the quantity of M222.

Compare this to L720, I am the only person on the Island of Ireland who has tested positive for L720, and there is only one person on Rathlin Island of the coast of Antrim who is L720+ and even this match is around 1500 years old to myself so L720 only exists in very small numbers. Remarkably of these handful of L720 people 98% of them have surnames associated with the Ancient Celtic church and the Islands associated with St Columba so to suggest that this is some kind of coincidence is quiet frankly ridiculous.

Regarding the L720 Autosomal Family Finder matches, I am living in County Waterford in the same place that my ancestors have lived for over two hundred years so any Ulster matches are of great antiquity and most stem from Blaris in County Antrim. Using Rootsireland if you search for O’Neill’s in the nine counties of Ulster from 1690 to 1730 you will find only 39 people with the O’Neill or McNeill surname and this is used in both forms in some families using both McNeill and O’Neill. A County breakdown of these O’Neill’s shows the following

Antrim = 22 matches
Armagh = 12 matches
Derry = 5 matches

Breakdown of the Antrim O’Neill’s reveal that all 22 O’Neills’s stem from Blaris

Breakdown of the Derry O’Neill’s reveal that all 5 O’Neills’s stem from St Columb’s

Breakdown of the Armagh O’Neill’s reveal that 7 O’Neills stem from Lurgan and were Quakers and the other 5 O’Neills stem from Armagh town

The fourth cousin matches to John D’Armond and Barbara Rodier D’Armond are not some kind of convergence or anomolies, both are descended from Thomas son of James D’Armond of Blaris County Antrim through his first marriage. His first wife probably died on the voyage to America in the 1730’s so information on her surname is absent however given that there were 22 O’Neill’s in Blaris during this time and 12 of these were female it is highly probable that she was on O’Neill which explains the fourth cousin match to myself. His second wife was Mary Johnstone also from Blaris in County Antrim.

Regarding the Fifth cousin Autosomal matches that you say are some kind of fabrication that have been invented, that is strange because I tested my Son for Autosomal losing nearly one-third of my matches which is normal however he still has the same matches to Ulster Neely’s and Mendenhall descendents which I quoted earlier as well as the D’Armond matches so if this is some kind of a conspiracy it is very sinister because he has a different address to me and there is no way they could connect us.

I must refer you back to the Duck mentioned earlier.

rms2
03-13-2014, 07:14 PM
How common is L720? Not very, from what I have seen, although I could be wrong about that.

Does it seem likely that the eminently prolific Niall of the Nine Hostages, with his ninety wives and numerous sons, belonged to such a relatively infrequent subclade?

That was one of the arguments Dr. Jim Wilson mentioned as militating against the alleged Stewart descent from Kenneth Mac Alpin, i.e., the fact that L745 and even DF41 itself are not all that frequent, and one would think that Kenneth would be represented by many descendants today.

Besides, aren't many of the surnames connected with Niall and the Ui Neill mostly M222+?

oneillabu
03-13-2014, 10:04 PM
How common is L720? Not very, from what I have seen, although I could be wrong about that.

Does it seem likely that the eminently prolific Niall of the Nine Hostages, with his ninety wives and numerous sons, belonged to such a relatively infrequent subclade?

That was one of the arguments Dr. Jim Wilson mentioned as militating against the alleged Stewart descent from Kenneth Mac Alpin, i.e., the fact that L745 and even DF41 itself are not all that frequent, and one would think that Kenneth would be represented by many descendants today.

Besides, aren't many of the surnames connected with Niall and the Ui Neill mostly M222+?

Here is a list of surnames of people with clear M222 signatures I compiled from my M222 database, this list is around two years old so you could probably add many more names at this stage. The amount of surnames that are associated with Niall are very small in comparison and it is possible to create any scenario you wish from these names, Norman, Saxon, Eoghnact, Niall, etc. This Trinity Niall must have been some man, I think they used the analogy "The Genghis Khan effect" comparing the petty Kings of Ireland to a Mongol ruler of Continents who had a steady diet of Virgins which he used to good effect, he also sacrificed them in their thousands. I wonder why it was so important to find an Abbot of Iona of the same blood line as St Columba when according to Trinity they were everywhere. This kind of nonsense has done untold damage to proper research of the ancient Kings of Ireland and is probably irreversible at this stage regardless of how much French, Welsh, Scottish DF49/DF23 results comes in.



Allison Armstrong Ashley Allred Andrew Alexander Archibald Arrington Abel Atkinson Augustine Allen Agnew Adamthwaite Agosti Alison Auld Akins Anderson Anglin Ansley Arbuckle Ashley Ashworth

Belsher Blount Burnet Bartley Burns Bryant Brune Blandy Boice Bolling Blaney Burditt Black Berry Boyle Baugh Bohan Barnett Buchanan Boyd Bloomer Battle Brooks Bell Biggs Blanchard Bruce Brown Bradley Butler Begley Buckles Blakely Bligh Barrett Brennan Bonner Bridges Burke Bingham
Bowers Barron Bennett Byrne Bolen Blaylock Brandenburg Boyle Bowe Brock Bales Best Baker Blayney Bookout Boggan Barron Bain Brahany Buckley Barkley Bartlett Brandon Backer Bacon Bailey Balch Barnes Barton Bassett Bateman Barr Benton Bickerstaffe Biggins Bissett Blackwell Blair Bliss Bostik Buoy Bradshaw Bradner Branson Braswell Bray Bricker Britton Bryson Buck Buckner Bullock Burks Burton Byrd Button Blaylock


Clugston Carney Cox Coyne Carver Cannon Carroll Conwell Carnes Campbell Cullen Cullivan Cleary Creegan Christian Carey Clarke Colgan Connor Cunningham Corrigan Cross Coursey Curry Cowan Cowley Coffey Carr Corse Callan Carlile Conwill Craig Coleman Callaghan Corgan Coen Curran Caulfield Cavett Cassidy Cornwall Cameron Cunniff Cunnea Cool Conroy Cruden Craven Craft Clancy Coogan Carlin Clegg Curley Cryans Caffrey Churchill Croxen Cluxton Caverly Clements Coane Cahill Caddell Cuthbert Chard Chambers Copson Chamberlin Chandler Carpenter Carson Coats Cope Caldwell Colbert Carlton Carter Carver Casey Chapman Church Clendenin Clinton Coad Coats Collins Connolly Conway Cooke Cooney Cooper Conklin Cottrell Craft Crane Crawford Cree Cronin Crossgrove Crowley Curtis

De Highden Davidson Doyen Dearing Darcy Dees Davis DeWolfe Donelson Dooley Dill Downie Dalton Davisson Devenney Doyle Dunn Dexter Diamond Doolin Damman Duley Drennan Dunbar Dominic Dillon Dehority Dorsey Duncan Doherty Dowell Dixon Donohoe Donnelly Downen Delaney
Dennison Duffey Denny Dobbins Douglas Daniel Darby Dawdy Dolton Downs Drake Dolan Donaldson,Doyne Doudell Deyarmie Dearing Devin Dougan Day Dover Daley Degnan Dowdican Durnan Dulea Donlan Doran Desertspring Darnell Dawson Dempsey Denson Devlin Dooley Dowd

Englis Efland Edmondson EVANS Ewing Everett Eaton Ellison Egan Elder

Ferrall Fuller Fairchild Flaherty Foley Forson Foster Flynn Fanning Fraser Feeney Ford Faulkner Ferguson Fay Fitzsimmons Flanagan Frey Fitzgerald Freeman Fournier Fortineux Fowler Faughnan Fingleton French Fain Farran Flannery Fleury Fair Friel Finnan Fogarty Fleming Forrest Fox Gibbons
Greene Gregory Gartland Grant Gates Gillespie Griffin Grogan Garvey Galloway Gray Gough Gatlin
Grimes Gracie Glass Glenn Gilmer Gormley Gallagher Golden Gwinn Guin Gordon Goodwin Graham Gorin Geoghegan Grier Garrett Golding Gallion Greeley Gorry Gorman Geary Growney Garrity Goehring Goggins Goulding

Hodges Hampson Haslett Harrison Hale Henderson Harriman Hays Hefflin Henley Harley Higgins Hughes Hill Hart Henson Harvey Harris Herald Harrelson Houston Hurley Hagan Hendry Haire Hannon Hardin Herring Harrow Horton Hoy Harp Holland Harkins Hood Helton Hargis Haun Hamill
Horan Haley Heanue Heaney Handlon Hayer Harold Hamrick Huvane

St John Jackson Jones Jordan Junkens Johnson Jamieson James Jennings Judge

Keesey Kennedy Kearon Killean Keltner Kerr King Kee Kent Keleghan Kelly Knowles Kilpatrick Knox Killion Kimble Kavenagh Kiernan Kern Keif Keeley Kroff Kindelan Kirk Kennelly Kielty
Kyle



Lafferty Lamont Lawson Lane Lutz Lee Leslie Leonard Lemons Lowery Lominac Lockhart Logan Leeper Livingstone Lennan Lafferty Liddil Lyons Lively Lenahan Lynn Lanagan Larkin Longbone
Lopez Loftus Lally Locklin Lagan Lynch Langley

Morley Marchington Meek Minor Mickle McConnell MacAulay McCormick Munro McAnallym McDougall Manley McAdams McKemmish McCan McTiernan McGovern Muckian McBride Mawhorter McLaughlin McGrath McRory McGonagill McNeil McFarlane McAmis McCall McGinnis McHarg Mead McMurray McDermott Megerian Mahoney McKinney McGeachie McMaster
McClanahan McClain Munnelly McNelly McHenry McCullough McCollister Moore Murphy Manley
Myers McAninch McGee McCubbin McCarthy McCracken McKenny Mullen Milligan Morrison Mitchell More McPherson McKenzie McBroom Maxwell Middleton McCombs Markham McGuire Morris Miller Morgan McDonald McHugh Martin Mosely McGlothlen Mannion Mathieson Montague Majors Malloy McGuirk McNew McKeon McKeever Masterson McCants Mason Minear Milam McClara Minzies McAfee Michael Meharg McHale McMurty McDonnell Medley Moran McFadden McElhaney Meredith Manross McManus Maney McShane Miers Melville Melia Mullaly McCreary McStravick Mullins McSorley McCalmont Maroney Montague Mooney McVaney Montgomery Moncrieff McConnaughhay Melvin McCarl McNamara McGrory McCarron McHargue McNutt McQuhae McPartlin Moneghan Meason Manees McGoran McCray McDearmond

Nabors Nelson Nolan Norton Norman Noonan Neel Nichols Naughton Nesbitt Nevin Nugent Noone
Nutter

O Donnell O'Kane Oliphant O’Reilly O’Brien Orr Owens O’Hara O’Gara Owsley O’Neill

Phan Potter Phillips Prosser Paul Patton Parton Paiz Pepper Patterson Powell Proffitt Plunkett
Purcell Prietula Parker Powers Pryor

Quinn Queen Quinton

Rankin Rennie Riney Ryan Rafferty Reed Redden Roberts Russell Rooney Romanoff Rice Reese
Ransom Robertson Reynolds Roddy Ross Reddick Rhodes Rurikson Roch Rogers

Stoker Sloane Swago Sinclair Sweeney Shepherd Strain Spencer Stroup Scott Sheehan Stevenson Stinson Snipes Stiles Stewart Starling Scism Skaar Sizemore Slagle Short Slavin Sinor Shannon Shaugnessy Smith Sheldon Swope Snow Sutherland Savage Siskron Shazell Sheeran Slotnick Spoon
Sanders Standford Shanklin Shields Sherry Spendalow Slavens Slattery Stephenson

Tammany Tardiff Towey Thornton Tribble Taylor Torpey Thrasher Tighe Trott Tucker Theken
Thomas Tully Thompson Torry

Urquhart

Vanover Vaughan

Wells Whitehead Williams Wallace Washington Worley Whitaker Wilson White Webb Wheeler Walker Woods Watson Ward Woodruff Whalley Watts Wyatt Wade Wheelahan Waller Welsh
Worley Welch

Young

RGM
03-14-2014, 12:23 AM
Regarding the L720 Autosomal Family Finder matches, I am living in County Waterford in the same place that my ancestors have lived for over two hundred years so any Ulster matches are of great antiquity and most stem from Blaris in County Antrim.

I don't know why you refer to it as "L720 Autosomal" matches, as again, the two things are not related.

My grandmother is from Galway. Her family has has lived in the same townland for at least 200 hundred years and all of her known ancestors are from Galway and Mayo. She has autosomal matches from many different places in Ireland (including Waterford). It has no relevance to her surname.


Regarding the Fifth cousin Autosomal matches that you say are some kind of fabrication that have been invented, that is strange because I tested my Son for Autosomal losing nearly one-third of my matches which is normal however he still has the same matches to Ulster Neely’s and Mendenhall descendents which I quoted earlier as well as the D’Armond matches so if this is some kind of a conspiracy it is very sinister because he has a different address to me and there is no way they could connect us.

The matches are not a fabrication. The relationships are a fabrication. It isn't a conspiracy, it's genetics. Once the amount of shared DNA drops to a certain level, nobody can predict how old the relation is with any degree of certainty. Here is some food thought: Everyone of Irish descent shares autosomal DNA.

Dubhthach
03-14-2014, 11:01 AM
From what I can see in Ireland yDNA Project the Uí Bhriúin and the Uí Fhiachrach are M222+, these are two of the three Connachta (the Uí nAilleo were annihilated during the 9th-10th century). Good example of Uí Bhriúin surnames been: O'Connor, McManus (branch of O'Connor's), Concannon, McDermot, Flanagan, Reilly, O'Rourke, O'Flaherty -- in case of above they all have recent ancestry in Connacht which fits with the territory of the various Uí Bhriúin "dynasties".

Likewise I see O'Shaugnessy, Cleary Hynes, O'Dowd, Loughney of the Uí Fhiachrach show up M222+.

Either way the mulitutde of new SNP's are starting to spilt M222 up nicely:
http://www.kennedydna.com/M222_2013Dec16.jpg

Unsurprising the more upstream parts are found more in Britain then in Ireland. For example the sole M222+/S7073- man known so far is from Scotland. This ties in with the idea that M222 probably arose in Northern Britain during the Iron age. In some ways nicely ties in with the Dál Cuinn foundation myth linking Tuathal Teachtmar to Britain.

rms2
03-14-2014, 11:05 AM
I don't think anyone ever argued that Niall was the first M222+ man or that every modern M222+ man is a descendant of Niall, so listing every surname connected with M222 is kind of pointless. More to the point would be a listing of Ui Neill surnames that are predominantly M222+. As far as I know, M222 is pretty common among the alleged Ui Neill. That's not proof positive, but one might expect a king with so many wives, concubines, etc., and numerous similarly prolific sons, to have left a multitude of descendants behind. One would not expect his y-dna line to be represented by a relatively infrequent subclade.

This is not a topic that can hold my attention for long, I must admit, but I was not aware until I read it here that there were any other y-dna claimants to the line of Niall of the Ninety Hot Wenches than M222. Interesting.

(This post refers to Post #85 above.)

Dubhthach
03-14-2014, 11:10 AM
Rich,

Niall wasn't specifically more prolific then a standard "petty king" (to use a term) of his era. He had two wives who bore him supposed 8 sons. There's some probability that a number of these were written in later, so for example Maine of the so called Cenel Maine (perhaps a doubling for the Uí Maine of east galway).

If we go to the 15th century we see the O'Donnell (King of Tír Chonaill) had something like 18 sons by 10 different women and close on 50 male grandsons (who reached adulthood). It's a multipier effect really, given the nature of Irish society where there was no concept of illegitimacy.

rms2
03-14-2014, 11:15 AM
Rich,

Niall wasn't specifically more prolific then a standard "petty king" (to use a term) of his era. He had two wives who bore him supposed 8 sons. There's some probability that a number of these were written in later, so for example Maine of the so called Cenel Maine (perhaps a doubling for the Uí Maine of east galway).

If we go to the 15th century we see the O'Donnell (King of Tír Chonaill) had something like 18 sons by 10 different women and close on 50 male grandsons (who reached adulthood). It's a multipier effect really, given the nature of Irish society where there was no concept of illegitimacy.

It was my understanding that he had 90 wives (some of whom may have been concubines rather than wives) and many more than eight sons. Is that incorrect?

Regardless, one would expect a king like Niall to have numerous y-dna line descendants.

rms2
03-14-2014, 11:41 AM
From what I can see in Ireland yDNA Project the Uí Bhriúin and the Uí Fhiachrach are M222+, these are two of the three Connachta (the Uí nAilleo were annihilated during the 9th-10th century). Good example of Uí Bhriúin surnames been: O'Connor, McManus (branch of O'Connor's), Concannon, McDermot, Flanagan, Reilly, O'Rourke, O'Flaherty -- in case of above they all have recent ancestry in Connacht which fits with the territory of the various Uí Bhriúin "dynasties".

Likewise I see O'Shaugnessy, Cleary Hynes, O'Dowd, Loughney of the Uí Fhiachrach show up M222+.

Either way the mulitutde of new SNP's are starting to spilt M222 up nicely:
http://www.kennedydna.com/M222_2013Dec16.jpg

Unsurprising the more upstream parts are found more in Britain then in Ireland. For example the sole M222+/S7073- man known so far is from Scotland. This ties in with the idea that M222 probably arose in Northern Britain during the Iron age. In some ways nicely ties in with the Dál Cuinn foundation myth linking Tuathal Teachtmar to Britain.

Those lines would be descendants of Niall's brothers, Brión and Fiachrae, correct? Or am I off on that? I have to confess I have never really followed the whole saga of Niall and his relatives very closely.

Andrew Lancaster
03-14-2014, 11:56 AM
From what I can see in Ireland yDNA Project the Uí Bhriúin and the Uí Fhiachrach are M222+, these are two of the three Connachta (the Uí nAilleo were annihilated during the 9th-10th century). Good example of Uí Bhriúin surnames been: O'Connor, McManus (branch of O'Connor's), Concannon, McDermot, Flanagan, Reilly, O'Rourke, O'Flaherty -- in case of above they all have recent ancestry in Connacht which fits with the territory of the various Uí Bhriúin "dynasties".

Likewise I see O'Shaugnessy, Cleary Hynes, O'Dowd, Loughney of the Uí Fhiachrach show up M222+.

Either way the mulitutde of new SNP's are starting to spilt M222 up nicely:
http://www.kennedydna.com/M222_2013Dec16.jpg

Unsurprising the more upstream parts are found more in Britain then in Ireland. For example the sole M222+/S7073- man known so far is from Scotland. This ties in with the idea that M222 probably arose in Northern Britain during the Iron age. In some ways nicely ties in with the Dál Cuinn foundation myth linking Tuathal Teachtmar to Britain.

Anyway you could associate surnames with branches on this tree yet?

Dubhthach
03-14-2014, 12:12 PM
It was my understanding that he had 90 wives (some of whom may have been concubines rather than wives) and many more than eight sons. Is that incorrect?

Regardless, one would expect a king like Niall to have numerous y-dna line descendants.

Nope, first I've heard of a figure of 90! Each of the sons are linked with specific kindreds/dynsties. So for example the official list were:

Fiachu mac Néill -- Cineal Fiachrach -- MacGeoghan and Molloy, King of Uisneach -- cursed by Patrick, thence dynasty was of little importance
Lóegaire mac Néill (Laoghaire) -- Cenél Lóegairi -- Connellan/Conlon/Quinlan -- High-King during time of St. Patrick, cursed by St. Patrick
Eóġan mac Néill (Eoghan) -- Cenél nEoghain -- O'Neill, Laverty, O'Donnelly, Gormley, McLoughlin, O'Looney, O'Kane etc. (baptised by St. Patrick)
Conall Gulban mac Néill -- Cenél Chonaill -- O'Donnell, Gallagher, Doherty, Cannon, Boyle etc. (baptised by St. Patrick)
Conall Cremthainne mac Néill -- through him the two important Southern Dynasties of Clann Cholmáin and Síl nÁedo Sláine descend
Coirpre mac Néill -- Cenél Coirpri -- O'Carey -- Cursed by St. Patrick
Éndae mac Néill -- Cenél Éndae

Maine of Tethba -- probably eastern Uí Maine absorbed into Southern Uí Néill overlordship.

The mentions of "cursed by St. Patrick" is basically a way Tírechán (who wrote a biography of saint in about 690) explained the downfall of specific dynasts/kindreds. Their fall from political power was basically explained away as due to them pissing of St. Patrick who would thus curse them etc.

Nice bit of political spin by Tírechán. If you are interested here's an extract from "Early Christain Ireland" by T.M. Charles-Edwards which deals specifically with the Southern Uí Néill.

http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/samples/cam032/99054974.pdf

The domainant dynasty in the "South" and the dominant dynasty in the "North" (Northern Uí Néill) would rotate the "High-Kingship" between them each generation. So you'd have for example in 9th/10th century something along the lines of:

Áed Findliath (Cenel nEoghain d. 879) Flann Sínna (Clann Chólmain d. 916) -> Niall Glúndubh (Cenel nEoghain d. 919AD) -> Donnchad Donn (Clann Chólmain d. 944) etc.

In the case above, Áed Findliath was the father of Niall Glúndubh (whom the O'Neill family are named after), whereas Donnchad Donn is the son of Flann Sínna.

At this stage Clann Cholmáin were dominant among the Southern Uí Néill, and the Cenél nEoghain had excluded the Cenél Chonaill from the kingship of the North.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
03-14-2014, 12:20 PM
Those lines would be descendants of Niall's brothers, Brión and Fiachrae, correct? Or am I off on that? I have to confess I have never really followed the whole saga of Niall and his relatives very closely.

That's the one, he had three half-brothers. Plus there was I believe a full brother by the name of Fergus. Saga is the right word, there's actually a text in english called: ""The Adventures of the Sons of Eochaid Mugmedon"
http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/eochaid.html

Basically this is all set in the two generations before Christianity arrived. Their father Eochaid bore a title of "Mugmedon" which basically means "Slave-Lord".

Dubhthach
03-14-2014, 12:22 PM
Anyway you could associate surnames with branches on this tree yet?

Andrew, there is a tree been maintained by Iain Kennedy using data from Chromo2 (IrelandsDNA/ScotlandsDNA) and BigY / Full Genomes testing. Here it is in PDF format. Early days let though:

http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf

rms2
03-14-2014, 06:27 PM
Nope, first I've heard of a figure of 90! . . .

I don't know where I read that, but I read it somewhere a number of years ago. Maybe it was someone's guesswork.

Dubhthach
03-14-2014, 07:58 PM
I don't know where I read that, but I read it somewhere a number of years ago. Maybe it was someone's guesswork.

Well important thing even if Niall only had 8 sons (plus say extra dozen by serving wenches etc.). The important thing is the "multiplier effect" that happens over subsequent generations. Kenneth Nichols in his seminal work on Gaelic Ireland (Gaelic and Gaelicised Ireland during the Middle ages) talks about "top-down replacement" of general population due to massive expansion of lineages of a ruling line. As each generation the specific King could have a dozen or so sons who then in turn would have sons a plenty themselves. From time of Niall to the destruction of native society in the early 17th century is 1200 years. on a 30 year generation that's basically 40generations. With rate of growth a lineage over that time that was carried by a ruling family could undergo exponential growth.

Dubhthach
03-14-2014, 07:59 PM
Note to all you want a successfull kindred going forth don't piss of St. Patrick this coming Monday ;)

rossa
03-14-2014, 09:12 PM
Note to all you want a successfull kindred going forth don't piss of St. Patrick this coming Monday ;)

Damn Welsh!
Would Primae Noctis have been practiced in Ireland (it was in Braveheart so it "had" to have been in Scotland)? I think it's mentioned in The Tain.

Dubhthach
03-15-2014, 05:46 PM
Damn Welsh!
Would Primae Noctis have been practiced in Ireland (it was in Braveheart so it "had" to have been in Scotland)? I think it's mentioned in The Tain.

I wouldn't rely on Braveheart for historical accuracy, sure didn't they have Mel wearing a Kilt (18th century invention).

-Paul
(DF41+)

rossa
03-18-2014, 07:34 PM
That was very much tongue in cheek. I love this quote form wikipedia.

Peter Traquair has referred to Wallace's "farcical representation as a wild and hairy highlander painted with woad (1,000 years too late) running amok in a tartan kilt (500 years too early)."

Rory Cain
03-25-2014, 01:40 AM
Compare this to L720, I am the only person on the Island of Ireland who has tested positive for L720, and there is only one person on Rathlin Island of the coast of Antrim who is L720+ and even this match is around 1500 years old to myself so L720 only exists in very small numbers.

While L720 is small, it does have cousins. L720 appears to be 'son" of S7200 but as the other sons have now yet emerged, I cannot say who your brothers are. But some cousins have emerged. S7200 appears to be "son" of ChrY position 19088630 C->T, a SNP shared with the Ely O'Carroll DNA type. So you appear to have cousins with an affinity for Co Offaly & Co Tipperary. More may emerge once this SNP is made avalable outside of Big Y.

Rory

oneillabu
03-26-2014, 12:05 AM
While L720 is small, it does have cousins. L720 appears to be 'son" of S7200 but as the other sons have now yet emerged, I cannot say who your brothers are. But some cousins have emerged. S7200 appears to be "son" of ChrY position 19088630 C->T, a SNP shared with the Ely O'Carroll DNA type. So you appear to have cousins with an affinity for Co Offaly & Co Tipperary. More may emerge once this SNP is made avalable outside of Big Y.

Rory

I believe that marker DYS462 is the key to the origin of L720 due to its ultra slow mutation rate. The only other DF21 person to date with this value is Arie Kaptein however this is a later mutation in this case because he is the only Z246 person with this value. Arie Kaptein's early ancestor is of unknown origin as we have learned from postings on this forum so we really cannot place any importance on his Dutch connection unless further DF21/Z246 people from this region are found. Regarding the Leinster connection, one interesting connection between the kin of Niall of the nine hostages and Corc is that he was a foster brother implying an very early DF21 connection between the differant DF21 snp branches which is consistant with a DF21 Milesian type descent from differant lines.

Rory Cain
03-26-2014, 01:52 AM
I believe that marker DYS462 is the key to the origin of L720 due to its ultra slow mutation rate. The only other DF21 person to date with this value is Arie Kaptein however this is a later mutation in this case because he is the only Z246 person with this value. Arie Kaptein's early ancestor is of unknown origin as we have learned from postings on this forum so we really cannot place any importance on his Dutch connection unless further DF21/Z246 people from this region are found. Regarding the Leinster connection, one interesting connection between the kin of Niall of the nine hostages and Corc is that he was a foster brother implying an very early DF21 connection between the differant DF21 snp branches which is consistant with a DF21 Milesian type descent from differant lines.

Much has changed in a short time. Your L720 and Kaptein's Z246 are no longer "brothers". FGC3903 pushed in between DF21 and Z246 and spoiled the DYS462 party by being ancestral rather than derived on that marker. Likewise ChrY:19088630 ans S7200 pushed in between DF21 and LL720, so that your closest cousins are now the Ely O'Carroll, who are also ancestral for DYS462. Not to say that it isn't a significant marker of your L720 sub-group. It just isn't shared by anyone else on your newly sprung branch and Kaptein is a very distant cousin now, on a different branch of DF21. Folks who are S7200+ but L720- appear to be your closest cousins now, followed by Ely O'Carroll.

You are onto something with the DF21 strata or perhaps sub-strata of Munster society. I can't say exactly what. Pseudo-history has attached DF21+ clans to the ruling dynasties of the pentarchy. But Fr Tom O'Connor has unravelled some of this. I posted some of O'Connor's thoughts on Conall Corc on the thread O'Connor's Hand of History.

Dubhthach
03-26-2014, 11:07 AM
Rory,

Is there any new Cladograms available for current structure of DF21?

-Paul
(DF41+)

Rory Cain
03-26-2014, 09:15 PM
Rory,

Is there any new Cladograms available for current structure of DF21?

-Paul
(DF41+)

Paul, not yet, I regret to say. I have been unable to access David's ytree on the R-DF21 project Background page although I have kept sub-group names up-to-date with new SNP names. Also the News and Results pages. Alex has been working on a new ytree which he will provide when completed.

Major finds thus far have included S971/ Z3017 for the Airghialla; ChrY:19088630 (yet to be named) which unites S7200 (father of L720) and the Ely O'Carroll; S3058 which unites the Little Scots Cluster plus an L159.3 Donahue amongst others; and FGC3900 & FGC3903 which unite Z246 and CTS8704.

The major sub-clades of DF5 have been marriage shy and remain under separate roofs at L658, L1403 (now upstream from L1402), L1446-L1447, CTS3655 & CTS3849/S4628. Plus five singletons, of whom Torres ordered Big Y. Leonard from Roscommon and an unidentified McCarthy have no STRs with which to ID their partcular DF5+ sub-group.

Of 5 FGC orders, 4 have arrived. The other should be soon as it's Batch 5. Of 44 Big Y orders, 9 (about 20%) have arrived. A month over schedule and only 20% completed, so the remainder are anyone's guess.

Rory

oneillabu
03-27-2014, 01:07 AM
Much has changed in a short time. Your L720 and Kaptein's Z246 are no longer "brothers". FGC3903 pushed in between DF21 and Z246 and spoiled the DYS462 party by being ancestral rather than derived on that marker. Likewise ChrY:19088630 ans S7200 pushed in between DF21 and LL720, so that your closest cousins are now the Ely O'Carroll, who are also ancestral for DYS462. Not to say that it isn't a significant marker of your L720 sub-group. It just isn't shared by anyone else on your newly sprung branch and Kaptein is a very distant cousin now, on a different branch of DF21. Folks who are S7200+ but L720- appear to be your closest cousins now, followed by Ely O'Carroll.

You are onto something with the DF21 strata or perhaps sub-strata of Munster society. I can't say exactly what. Pseudo-history has attached DF21+ clans to the ruling dynasties of the pentarchy. But Fr Tom O'Connor has unravelled some of this. I posted some of O'Connor's thoughts on Conall Corc on the thread O'Connor's Hand of History.

I checked the GD at 111 markers from myself to Carroll 185954 from the Ely Carroll group and it is 40 so this link is very old, nearly as old as DF21 itself so this common ancestor is well over three thousand years which once again points to distances consistant with the ancient Milesian pedigrees.

Rory Cain
03-27-2014, 02:05 AM
I checked the GD at 111 markers from myself to Carroll 185954 from the Ely Carroll group and it is 40 so this link is very old, nearly as old as DF21 itself so this common ancestor is well over three thousand years which once again points to distances consistant with the ancient Milesian pedigrees.

No argument with the first part. But you mention Milesian genealogies. How reliable are Milesian genealogies at 3,000 years back?

I'm curious why you used the term "Milesian". Apart from that "history" generated by the pulp-mill press, it is understood that the mythical sons of Mil were just that, myth.

Mag Uidhir 6
03-27-2014, 06:27 AM
Ah.....BUT in every MYTH there lies a nugget of truth!!

Not to say the Milesean stories ARE true.... But hey, there indeed may well BE some truth in there.

rossa
03-28-2014, 12:48 PM
Ah.....BUT in every MYTH there lies a nugget of truth!!

Not to say the Milesean stories ARE true.... But hey, there indeed may well BE some truth in there.

I don't think anyone discounts the idea of interaction between Ireland and Spain back in the day , but there seems to beca romanticised view of some unique Ireland/Spain genetic relationship that doesn't exist.

Rory Cain
03-28-2014, 09:09 PM
I don't think anyone discounts the idea of interaction between Ireland and Spain back in the day , but there seems to beca romanticised view of some unique Ireland/Spain genetic relationship that doesn't exist.

It remains just that, an idea. While a central part of the Milesian myth, no evidence has ever been found to support it. For Irish nationalism, it beats having to admit that the most likely route from the Continent is via Britain. There was always the fear that previous resideince in Britain might provide some justification for British imperialism. Hence the romanticised Ireland/Spain relationshipthat doesn't exist.

Certainly there were Celtiberians in Spain, descended from a similar stock. Some DNA types represented in Spain like DF27 are turning up in the far west if Britain and Ireland. However the ieea of the earliest Europeans wintering out the Ice Age in an Iberian refuge and recolonizing western Euope from Europe is now obsolete. Those of us who purchased FTDNA's first Deep Clade Test, a product heavily influenced by the iberian theory and which tested SNPs found in the Basque country when geneticists flocked there, soon found we had wasted our money.

Then plucky little 23andme outpaced the big boys on the block when they grasped the significance of P312, which displayed more genetic diversity in Eastern Europe than in Western Europe. It couldn't have come from Spain so was ignored. But 23andme tested for it and it is now established that P312 arrived from the east, not from Spain, and carried the proto-Celts with it. To still support the Milesian myth it would now be necessary to find a downstream SNP within the Celtic population which contains evidence of Iberian origins. I am not sure that DF27 fits that criteria. It appears to have originated in the Alps and have spread to Iberia about the same time that other DF27 moved in a westerly direction to Britain and then Ireland. As did most Celts, it would seem. If a Spanish colonisation of Ireland occurred, it hasn't been identified other than in myth.

If we don't totally discard U152 because of it's southerly sperad into Italy, we note a second branch went west down the Rhine and left a signifiant pocket in modernday Belgium. This would be the most likely migration route out of the Celtic homeland in the Alps - down the Rhine to France, Belgium and Nederlands then across to Britain.

Looking at DF21, close to the heart of the originator of this thread, the only non-Isles members of that clade have origins on the Atlantic fringe of Northern Europe, including France, Nederlands and Norway, rather than a siesta in sunny Spain. Those locations also have a closer proximity to the Isles than does Spain. Tellingly, there is a significant enough population on the island of Britain to resemble what we might expect had DF21 arrived there first before continuing on to Ireland, wheras the Milesian myth specifically excludes Britain. Great myt for political purposes. Not so great at describing any sort of historical reality.

oneillabu
03-29-2014, 12:08 AM
a central part of the Milesian myth, no evidence has ever been found to support it. .

Like I said before, I tend to concentrate on the existing facts and formulate theories based on these. The cornerstone of Irish pedigrees are the Milesian bloodlines and I am not prepared to write these off just to save Trinity College’s blushes, everything must fall to try and perpetrate this ridiculous M222 Niall scenario which at this stage has become a complete farce. So how could there be any facts associated with the Milesian pedigrees I hear you say, well let’s first look at some of these including physical evidence of a connection between Ireland and Egypt.

The ancient name for the hill of Tara is “Teamair” which translates to the (burial) mound of Tea (pronounced Chi) who was the wife of Eremon of the Milesian line, so the origins of the primary Royal site associated with the ancient Celtic Kings of Ireland is directly linked to the Milesians.

The wife of Milesius was Scota or Scotia (who was the daughter of an Egyptian Pharaoh) and this was the name by which both Ireland and Scotland were known prior to 1000 AD, Ireland being Scotia major and Scotland Scotia minor. Scotia’s glen in Kerry is also associated with the Milesian story, also Nova Scotia translates to “New Scotia” due to the Irish who settled there.

St Columba claimed Milesian Royal blood and his existence from 521 AD cannot be questioned, this proves that there was considerable knowledge of this ancient line a long time before the fabrication of pedigrees which attempted to link later arrivals to the core Royal blood line.

The ancient Nava Fort (Eamhain Macha) existed well over two and a half thousand years ago and this has been proven by the excavations of this site, this evidence is contrary to writers such as O’Rahilly and his later converts who would have us believe that Ireland was an uninhabited wasteland at this time. This Fort is once again linked to the Milesian’s and the famous Red Branch Knights. Excavations at this Fort revealed the skull of a Barbary Ape which is found in Morocco adjacent to Egypt, also the bones of very large dogs were found which are undoubtedly the legendary Irish Wolfhound and these are mentioned in the ancient writings of Rome and are central to many Irish stories. The origin of these magnificent dogs is undoubtedly Egypt.

The following connects the Ancient Celts and Egypt

1: The DNA of the Pharaoh Tutankhamun is proto Celtic which was an absolute shock to the African Pharaoh theorists

2: Celtic mercenaries were to be found in the Armies of the Pharaoh’s from very early times

3: A discovery was made in Egypt of writing in Greek by two persons with Celtic names which outlined their methods used in the capturing of dogs.

4: Some mummified dogs from Egypt are almost identical to Irish Wolfhounds; I know this because I have kept Wolfhound’s for years

5: The early Celtic Church is almost identical in structure to the Egyptian Coptic Church proving the early Christian connection.

6: The cover of a Psalter (Fadden Mor) found in an Irish bog dating from around 800 AD was found to be much older than the book itself and a detailed examination of the cover revealed that it was constructed of Egyptian papyrus reeds and must have originated in Egypt.

Regarding the lack of foreign DF21, this is not surprising to me because if DF21 is linked to the Sons of Mil then it may well have originated in Ireland, the results to date certainly reflect a number of distinct lines of Irish origin with extremely large genetic distances between them, I have over 50% mismatches at 111 markers in some cases. Of course the given pedigrees for the Sons of Mil are not going to be exactly reflected and in the case of the Conn of the hundred battles line from Aongus Tuirimheach, this is almost certainly fabrication and the original line from Fiacha Fearmara to Cairbre Riada most likely reflects the original pedigree. It is not about matching surnames exactly to given pedigrees and more about comparing the overall picture to existing results to determine if a Sons of Mil scenario is reflected in any group. To date DF21 is the only credible candidate however only time and more results will tell.

Dubhthach
03-29-2014, 10:34 AM
The ancient name for the hill of Tara is “Teamair” which translates to the (burial) mound of Tea

It doesn't translate as that, that's a false etymology. Aside from that Míl Espáine is a calque of the latin Miles Hispaniae (Soldier of Hispania) into Irish. It and the whole storyline your post about only dates to the 8th/9th century.

As for Pharaoh's given that R1b probably arose in central asia and that M269 specifically probably arose in the middle east it's hardly surprising that a Pharaoh could be R1b. If anything he was probably R1b-V88 which is parallel clade to M269.

rms2
03-29-2014, 01:32 PM
Just a side note. It isn't likely that "[t]he early Celtic Church [was] . . . almost identical in structure to the Egyptian Coptic Church". The Copts were Monophysites, that is, they rejected the decisions of the Council of Chalcedon (A.D. 451) and the famous Tome of Pope St. Leo the Great, declaring that Christ has two natures and is therefore both fully Divine and fully human. The Monophysites held that Christ had one, Divine nature. Anyway, that aside, Ireland was still in the process of conversion at that time, and there is no evidence I know of to indicate that Monophysitism was ever a factor there, as surely it would have been had there been a Coptic connection.

oneillabu
03-29-2014, 05:01 PM
Just a side note. It isn't likely that "[t]he early Celtic Church [was] . . . almost identical in structure to the Egyptian Coptic Church". The Copts were Monophysites, that is, they rejected the decisions of the Council of Chalcedon (A.D. 451) and the famous Tome of Pope St. Leo the Great, declaring that Christ has two natures and is therefore both fully Divine and fully human. The Monophysites held that Christ had one, Divine nature. Anyway, that aside, Ireland was still in the process of conversion at that time, and there is no evidence I know of to indicate that Monophysitism was ever a factor there, as surely it would have been had there been a Coptic connection.

Here are some examples of the commonality

1: The use of cashels, enclosing numerous churches and a conventional establishment, is common to both early Ireland and Egypt.

2: Egyptian Coptic churches having also waggon-vaulted" roofs like the Irish churches.

3: The use of handbells is common to both Irish and Coptic rituals.

4: The use of embossed metal covers for Manuscripts is common to both Irish and Coptic churches.

5: The use of book satchels and ecclesiastical Fans is common to both Irish and Coptic churches.

6: Saltair Na Rann, a collection of mediaeval Irish poems, is simply an Irish eleventh or twelfth century edition of the Book of Adam
and Eve, composed in the fifth or sixth century in Egypt and is known in no other European country save Ireland

7: The Fadden Mor Psalter has a Papyrus reed cover of Egyptian origin showing an indisputable early connection between both churches

oneillabu
03-29-2014, 06:05 PM
It doesn't translate as that, that's a false etymology. Aside from that Míl Espáine is a calque of the latin Miles Hispaniae (Soldier of Hispania) into Irish. It and the whole storyline your post about only dates to the 8th/9th century.

As for Pharaoh's given that R1b probably arose in central asia and that M269 specifically probably arose in the middle east it's hardly surprising that a Pharaoh could be R1b. If anything he was probably R1b-V88 which is parallel clade to M269.

According to the Dindshenchas there are two possible sources for the name Teamair

Source One
Teamair or Te-muir, that is Mur Tea, or “The Wall of Tea”. Tea we learn was the daughter of Lugaidh son of Ith and she married Gede Ollgothach

Source Two
Teipe-mur “Wall of Teipe or “of Teipi”, this Tephi we are told was the daughter of one Bachter “King of Spain”

I am only repeating what the ancient scribes say however you are entitled to your opinion on these.

Rory Cain
03-29-2014, 09:44 PM
The ancient Nava Fort (Eamhain Macha) existed well over two and a half thousand years ago and this has been proven by the excavations of this site, this evidence is contrary to writers such as O’Rahilly and his later converts who would have us believe that Ireland was an uninhabited wasteland at this time.


That is not what O'Rahilly said. Instead of the Labor Gabala nonsense about Ninus mac Bel of Assyria then regular summer excursions of Greeks bearing the names Parthalonian, Nemedian, etc, all incestuously related to each other and leaving extrememly regular looking breaks between their holidays in Ireland, O'Rahilly proposed his own model. I believe I may have posted a summary of it on the Anthrogenica thread "O'Connor's Hand of History" some time ago.

O'Rahilly has waves of invaders, starting with the Cruithne ca 700-500 BC. It would appear that you have not read O'Rahilly but relied upon a third source who has misinformed you. Such is the strength of the now discredited Milesian Myth that O'Rahilly ended up tacking it onto the end of his more realistic model. Then again, it was also quite late in his life that O'Rahilly acknowledged that the Tara myth was a late fabrication, Tara having been in the hands of the stubborn Cruithne until seized from them by the Connaught dynasty as late as the 8th C (Ref: O'Connor). O'Rahilly ain't perfect but he attempts to write history, as opposed to fable like the Labor Gabala. the Milesian Myth & the Tara Myth. O'Connor further refined s0me of this work.

Dubhthach
03-29-2014, 10:33 PM
The earliest poems withing the Dindshenchas date to the 11th century, more then likely as a collection of topographical poems they were collected during the 12th century. The keyword here is "poem". I think I'd prefer an earlier source here's what Cormac mac Cuilennáin King-Bishop of Munster wrote during the period 890-908 in his famous glossary:

Temair .i. te múr múr Téa ingine Lúgdach maic hItha. no
grec rotruaillned and téomora i. e. conspicio. témair
din cach loch ba hurgna décsiu iter mhag & tech ut dicitur
temair na duath .i. grianan no tulach. temair intige
.i. grianan.

The first bit talks about Téa and her so called wall. Given that the glossary dates to the late 9th century it's not surprising that the taint of political propaganda can be found in it. The second part (bolded) is by far the more relevant etymology particularly when you consider the geography of the location.

For those not familiar with "Old Irish" (let alone Modern Irish)
--
Temair,
then, every place from which there is a remarkable [?] prospect both in
plain and house (d), ut dicitur temair na tuailhe (' temair of the country')
i.e. a hill, temair in tige (' temair of the house') i.e. an upper room.
---

Dubhthach
03-29-2014, 10:35 PM
That is not what O'Rahilly said. Instead of the Labor Gabala nonsense about Ninus mac Bel of Assyria then regular summer excursions of Greeks bearing the names Parthalonian, Nemedian, etc, all incestuously related to each other and leaving extrememly regular looking breaks between their holidays in Ireland, O'Rahilly proposed his own model. I believe I may have posted a summary of it on the Anthrogenica thread "O'Connor's Hand of History" some time ago.

O'Rahilly has waves of invaders, starting with the Cruithne ca 700-500 BC. It would appear that you have not read O'Rahilly but relied upon a third source who has misinformed you. Such is the strength of the now discredited Milesian Myth that O'Rahilly ended up tacking it onto the end of his more realistic model. Then again, it was also quite late in his life that O'Rahilly acknowledged that the Tara myth was a late fabrication, Tara having been in the hands of the stubborn Cruithne until seized from them by the Connaught dynasty as late as the 8th C (Ref: O'Connor). O'Rahilly ain't perfect but he attempts to write history, as opposed to fable like the Labor Gabala. the Milesian Myth & the Tara Myth. O'Connor further refined s0me of this work.

Tara was part of the Kingdom of Leinster until Dál Cuinn seized it. I'm not sure where O'COnnor is coming up with his information but it doesn't match anything been published in the academic world in this regards.

Rory Cain
03-29-2014, 11:59 PM
Tara was part of the Kingdom of Leinster until Dál Cuinn seized it. I'm not sure where O'COnnor is coming up with his information but it doesn't match anything been published in the academic world in this regards.

The borders of Leinster, Ulster, Connaught and Munster have shifted numerous times. You could possibly name more instances of that than I. The problem is detailing those shifts. O'Connor believes traditions embodied in the Ulidian Cycle tales and the legends of Cormac Mac Airt and the Battle of Cath Crinna throw a different light on Tara than does the Tara Myth. Right or wrong, O'Connor sees the Ulster dynasty as descendants of the stubborn Cruithne, continuously pushed further north by invading Fir Belg. He states, "The implications of the Battle of Crinna corroborate the fact that at the time of Cormac, and for centuries after, the power of the Cruithin of Ulster extended S of the Boyne not only to Tara but as far as the Tolka River which flows into Dublin Bay on the East coast."

"Cath Crinna depicts Cormac assembling his vassal tribes, including the Ciannachta of Eile. These had a long history as vassal-allies of Connaught." [They also appear to have some affinity with DF21 if we look at DF21's distribution on the frontiers of Leinster, Connaught, Munster and Ulster.]

O'Connor continues, "MacNeill erred in thinking Tara previously belonged to leinster and passed to Connacht...Cath Crinna shows that the area S of the Liffey, including Tara, never previously belonged either to leinster or Connacht, but solely to the Cruithin Kings of Ulster. MacNeill had to admit: "Yet i the story itself, there is no mention of Leinster and Cormac's only enemies were the Ulstermen. The conflict seems to be altogether between Cormac and Ulster." Thus he struck the core of the original truth, but ignored it because he had preconceived ideas about Tara which ed him to believe that the tale was defective." But, was it? It belies the Tara myth and either way, whoever originally ruled Tara, it certainly wasn't the dal Cuinn from time immemorial as the Tara Myth would have it. As Lewis Carroll said, "It ges curioser and curioser."

O'Connor is bold and will no doubt be criticised for that, as was O'Rahilly before him. Personally I not going to discard either O'Rahilly or O'Connor without hearing them out. I am interested in the opinions of those like yourself who have read more widely than the Tara Myth fool's fodder of the pulp-mill press.

rms2
03-30-2014, 12:08 AM
Here are some examples of the commonality

1: The use of cashels, enclosing numerous churches and a conventional establishment, is common to both early Ireland and Egypt.

2: Egyptian Coptic churches having also waggon-vaulted" roofs like the Irish churches.

3: The use of handbells is common to both Irish and Coptic rituals.

4: The use of embossed metal covers for Manuscripts is common to both Irish and Coptic churches.

5: The use of book satchels and ecclesiastical Fans is common to both Irish and Coptic churches.

6: Saltair Na Rann, a collection of mediaeval Irish poems, is simply an Irish eleventh or twelfth century edition of the Book of Adam
and Eve, composed in the fifth or sixth century in Egypt and is known in no other European country save Ireland

7: The Fadden Mor Psalter has a Papyrus reed cover of Egyptian origin showing an indisputable early connection between both churches

Those things seem to me to be pretty superficial resemblances. Do you have a reliable source for item #6? I could not find any articles connecting the Saltair Na Rann to The Book of Adam and Eve nor even any reference to The Book of Adam and Eve as such. The Catholic Encyclopedia has a reference to The Books of Adam here (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01132b.htm), but no mention of a translation into Irish.

Believe what you wish, but I am fairly familiar with Church history. It isn't likely Egyptian Copts had much if anything to do with Irish Christianity. The Copts were staunchly Monophysite, and to this day their churches remain separate from the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches for that reason.

Dubhthach
03-30-2014, 08:31 AM
What ever about Saltair na Rann it's well known that several classic works from the mediterraenian was translated into Irish. For example:

Aenid -> Imtheachta Aeniasa
De Excidio Troiae Historia -> Togail Troí

Several others (including a life of Alexander), of course these texts weren't just translated into Irish but "adapted" to the Irish situation/sensibilities.

http://www.classicsireland.com/2004/poppe.html

Of course these were works that were widely available in the "right circles" throughout Christian europe at the time (1000-1200 is general date for these translations)

oneillabu
03-30-2014, 11:10 AM
Those things seem to me to be pretty superficial resemblances. Do you have a reliable source for item #6? I could not find any articles connecting the Saltair Na Rann to The Book of Adam and Eve nor even any reference to The Book of Adam and Eve as such. The Catholic Encyclopedia has a reference to The Books of Adam here (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01132b.htm), but no mention of a translation into Irish.

Believe what you wish, but I am fairly familiar with Church history. It isn't likely Egyptian Copts had much if anything to do with Irish Christianity. The Copts were staunchly Monophysite, and to this day their churches remain separate from the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches for that reason.

These are not my theories regarding the connection between the Coptic Church and the Celtic Church, they are by a number of respected academics. The Irish Adam and Eve story has been researched and published by the school of Celtic studies at the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies.

In 1883 Whitley Stokes published an edition without translation of the Middle Irish
biblical poem Saltair na Rann from MS Rawlinson B 5021 in the Bodleian Library,
Oxford (Anecdota Oxoniensia. Mediæval and Modern Series Vol. I, Part III).

During the 1970s Professor David Greene conducted a seminar on this text at the Dublin Institute for
Advanced Studies. As a result, he published with Fergus Kelly an edition and translation
of The Irish Adam and Eve story from Saltair na Rann (lines 833–2240)

Butlers Ancient Coptic Churches of Egypt (Clarendon press) has illustrations outlining the common features of the Coptic and Celtic churches, this is also featured in "Ireland and the Celtic Church" by George T Stokes published in 1891 so this theory has been around for a long time. I have no doubt that the Egyptian Papyrus cover of the Fadden Mor Psalter is an reflection of this ancient connection and probably dates from the time of Saint Columba. The Saltair na Rann poems have been attributed to Oengus the Culdee who flourished in the ninth century AD which is around the period that the Fadden Mor Psalter has been dated from so there is clearly a connection here.

rms2
03-30-2014, 12:31 PM
These are not my theories regarding the connection between the Coptic Church and the Celtic Church, they are by a number of respected academics. The Irish Adam and Eve story has been researched and published by the school of Celtic studies at the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies.

In 1883 Whitley Stokes published an edition without translation of the Middle Irish
biblical poem Saltair na Rann from MS Rawlinson B 5021 in the Bodleian Library,
Oxford (Anecdota Oxoniensia. Mediæval and Modern Series Vol. I, Part III).

I did not say the Saltair na Rann did not exist, just that I could not find any evidence that it has anything to do with any Coptic Egyptian works.




During the 1970s Professor David Greene conducted a seminar on this text at the Dublin Institute for
Advanced Studies. As a result, he published with Fergus Kelly an edition and translation
of The Irish Adam and Eve story from Saltair na Rann (lines 833–2240)

And? Where is the evidence of a connection to a Coptic work? I could not even find anything about a supposed Coptic The Book of Adam and Eve. I already mentioned The Books of Adam article from The Catholic Encyclopedia, which mentions a number of translations, none of them Irish.



Butlers Ancient Coptic Churches of Egypt (Clarendon press) has illustrations outlining the common features of the Coptic and Celtic churches, this is also featured in "Ireland and the Celtic Church" by George T Stokes published in 1891 so this theory has been around for a long time. I have no doubt that the Egyptian Papyrus cover of the Fadden Mor Psalter is an reflection of this ancient connection and probably dates from the time of Saint Columba. The Saltair na Rann poems have been attributed to Oengus the Culdee who flourished in the ninth century AD which is around the period that the Fadden Mor Psalter has been dated from so there is clearly a connection here.

The Egyptians pretty much began the practice of Christian monasticism, so there is a certain amount of Egyptian influence throughout the older churches, but it is very early influence, long before Ireland converted. Egyptian artistic influences were carried to Europe via the Byzantines, again before Ireland converted.

What everyone must understand in this regard is that the Copts and their leaders were anathematized as Monophysite heretics at the Council of Chalcedon and subsequent church councils. Chalcedon was one of the ecumenical councils of the Church and not small potatoes. It was major. While it is possible that a few Egyptian monks - perhaps Orthodox monks fleeing the Monophysite Copts - could have made their way to Ireland, it seems highly unlikely. Actual Copts would have been regarded as heretics and not as Catholics.

By the 9th century AD, the Copts had long been outside the Catholic Church. There is no evidence, as far as I know, of the Monophysite heresy ever making an appearance in Ireland, as surely it would had the Copts any real influence there. By contrast, we know the heretic Pelagius (source of the heterodox teaching known as Pelagianism) was a Briton and that Pelagianism was a problem in Britain. We never hear of a similar problem with Egyptian Monophysitism in Ireland.

oneillabu
03-30-2014, 03:16 PM
[QUOTE=rms2;35486]


And? Where is the evidence of a connection to a Coptic work? I could not even find anything about a supposed Coptic The Book of Adam and Eve. I already mentioned The Books of Adam article from The Catholic Encyclopedia, which mentions a number of translations, none of them Irish.

Here is a link

http://www.dias.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4742%3Asaltair-na-rann&catid=27&Itemid=225&lang=en



[Actual Copts would have been regarded as heretics and not as Catholics.]

The early Celtic church was not Catholic and was actually at war with Rome for centuries over the date of Easter, like I said the theory of the connection between the Celtic church and the Coptic church was examined in detail by the historians I quoted so it is not my theory but one that is supported with physical evidence by the Egyptian Papyrus cover of the Fadden Mor Psalter so I see no reason not to agree with it.

oneillabu
03-30-2014, 03:51 PM
O'Rahilly has waves of invaders, starting with the Cruithne ca 700-500 BC. It would appear that you have not read O'Rahilly but relied upon a third source who has misinformed you.

O'Rahilly has waves of invaders, starting with the Cruithne ca 700-500 BC. It would appear that you have not read O'Rahilly but relied upon a third source who has misinformed you.

I must confess that I have not read O’Rahilly in over two years and before that I read it only once. I found it to be an extremely depressing read in which he found lies and deceit in almost every pedigree and some of the conclusions he came to were completely ludicrious. His mission seemed to be to completely debunk the existence of any ancient Royal line while belittling other historian’s who did not agree with his theories. I recall that Clan McLaughlin frequently quoted sections of his work to attack what their website termed as the “not so Royal O’Neill’s” who did not measure up to the M222 Niall story.


The point I was trying to make regarding Navan Fort is that an Irish Royal line definitely existed around 600 BC which is the earliest date that excavations of the site record and there is no mention of this in O’Rahilly’s work that I can recall however like I said I have not read his book in over two years so maybe I will dust off the cobwebs and have a fresh look at his various theories because so much has changed in two years, particularly on the SNP front.

oneillabu
03-30-2014, 05:29 PM
.[/QUOTE]

Here is an article entitled on the trail of the Seven Coptic Monks in Ireland by Abba Seraphim

The Coptic Orthodox Church has long known of the historic links between the British Isles and Christian Egypt, but documentation and solid evidence is thin on the ground for these early centuries of church history. There are learned articles by Monique Blanc-Ortolan of the Musee des Arts dE9coratifs, Paris, and Pierre du Bourguet of the Louvre on ‘Coptic and Irish Art’ and by Joseph F.T. Kelly of John Carroll University, Cleveland, Ohio, on ‘Coptic Influences in the British Isles’ in the Coptic Encyclopedia which are worth consulting. Other works, like Shirley Toulson’s The Celtic Year, which asserts that “rather than adhere to the ruling of the Council [of Chalcedon], some of the most dedicated adherents of Monophysitism fled from Egypt, and some of them most surely travelled west and north to Ireland”, in their enthusiasm to establish a link, make up what is lacking in hard evidence with sheer conjecture and fantasy.

The late Archdale King noted the links between Celtic Ireland and Coptic Egypt. He suggests that much of the contact took place before the Muslim Conquest of 640. There exists evidence of a Mediterranean trade in a single passage in the life of St. John the Almsgiver (Ioannes III Eleemon), Greek Patriarch of Alexandria between 610-621, in which reference is made to a vessel sailing to Alexandria from Britain with a cargo of tin, doubtless come from Cornwall or Somerset.

King observes that the kind of asceticism associated with the Desert Fathers was especially congenial to the Irish but refers to Dom Henri Leclercq’s suggestion that Celtic monasticism was directly derived from Egypt, as an “unsubstantiated hypothesis”. No serious historian, however, would deny that first-hand knowledge of the Desert Fathers was brought directly to the South of Gaul by St. John Cassian and that the links between the British and Gallican churches were especially strong at this period. King nevertheless admits that the grouping together of several small churches within a cashel or fortified enclosure seems to support Leclercq’s view.

King mentions an Ogham inscription on a stone near St. Olan’s Well in the parish of Aghabulloge, County Cork, which scholars interpret as reading: ‘Pray for Olan the Egyptian.’ Professor Stokes tells us5 about the Irish monk Dicuil, who around 825 wrote his Liber de Mensure orbis terre describing the pyramids as well as an ancient precursor of the Suez Canal. It would seem that Egypt was often visited by pilgrims to the Holy Land. Stokes instances the Saltair Na Rann, an anthology of biblical poems attributed to Oengus the Culdee, but containing the sixth or seventh century Book of Adam and Eve, composed in Egypt and known in no other European country except Ireland.

King also notes that one of the commonest names for townlands or parishes is Disert or ‘Desert’: a solitary place in which anchorites were established. Presumably the same etymology gives us the Scottish Dysart, just north of Kirkcaldy, and the Welsh Dyserth, to the south of Prestatyn ? This would then present a consistent picture common to Celtic Christianity. The Martyrology of Oengus the Culdee, an early ninth century monastic bishop of Clonenagh (Co. Offaly) and later of Tallaght, has a litany invoking ‘Seven monks of Egypt in Disert Uilaig, I invoke unto my aid, through Jesus Christ.’ [Morfesseor do manchaib Egipr(e) in disiurt Uilaig]. The Antiphonary of Bangor (dating from between 680-691) also contains the text:

” … Domus deliciis plena Super petram constructa Necnon vinea vera Ex Aegypto transducta …”

which is translated as:

” … House full of delight Built on the rock And indeed true vine Translanted from Egypt …”

Providence undoubtedly put me in touch with Fr. Feargal Patrick McGrady, priest of Ballymena, County Antrim in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Down and Connor. As well as being a native of Downpatrick (the burial place of St. Patrick), Father Feargal is enthusiastic about the Eastern churches and holds His Holiness Pope Shenouda in high esteem. He was delighted to assist with my enquiries and very soon made contacts with local historians, who are the real source of the information we need.

Dr. Cahal Dallat, Genealogist and Historical Consultant, of Ballycastle, County Antrim, identified Disert Ilidh or Uilaigh with Dundesert, near Crumlin, county Antrim, which is to the north-west of Belfast, the capital of Northern Ireland, between Belfast International Airport and Templepatrick.

Mr. Bobbie Burns, a local historian living in Crumlin, was another link in the chain. He produced a report in the Belfast Telegraph of 13th July 1936 under the headline “Unique Once Famous Ulster Church: Neglected Crumlin Ruins”, which showed the ruins of the medieval church built on the site of an earlier shrine. The local historical group is taking a renewed interest in the site and the local Protestant landowner has given permission for them to come and go freely to the site. It is hoped that they might obtain a grant to restore the dilapidated ruins but they are excited by its more ancient and possible Coptic connections. The site is approached by a path along the side of a grazing field 200-300 metres from Poplar Road. It is on the steep bank of the Crumlin River, which is a large free-flowing river, but is more than 100 metres from the water. Access is easy in dry weather, but not pleasant after heavy rain. The terrain inside the enclosure is very rough. The ground is strewn with boulders which have either fallen or been removed from the medieval walls. Parts of the medieval walls, in places three feet thick and covered in ivy, survive on the east (or gable) and south sides. The east wall contains two arched recesses or sedilia, now only about four feet in height but probably much higher if their foundations were cleared of the extensive in-fill of stones and earth. The gable rises to around thirty feet in height but a number of stones have already been removed and were any more to go it would be undermined and likely to collapse. What remains of the wall at the other end is much lower. It is likely that the whole structure would have been removed long ago but for the difficulties of dislodging stone from the walls and the problem of transportation to the road.

We are grateful for the efforts of these local enthusiasts for having preserved these ancient ruins and look forward to making further discoveries about the last resting place of the seven monks of Egypt.

Abba Seraphim

oneillabu
03-30-2014, 08:26 PM
.

Here is an article entitled on the trail of the Seven Coptic Monks in Ireland by Abba Seraphim

The Coptic Orthodox Church has long known of the historic links between the British Isles and Christian Egypt, but documentation and solid evidence is thin on the ground for these early centuries of church history. There are learned articles by Monique Blanc-Ortolan of the Musee des Arts dE9coratifs, Paris, and Pierre du Bourguet of the Louvre on ‘Coptic and Irish Art’ and by Joseph F.T. Kelly of John Carroll University, Cleveland, Ohio, on ‘Coptic Influences in the British Isles’ in the Coptic Encyclopedia which are worth consulting. Other works, like Shirley Toulson’s The Celtic Year, which asserts that “rather than adhere to the ruling of the Council [of Chalcedon], some of the most dedicated adherents of Monophysitism fled from Egypt, and some of them most surely travelled west and north to Ireland”, in their enthusiasm to establish a link, make up what is lacking in hard evidence with sheer conjecture and fantasy.

The late Archdale King noted the links between Celtic Ireland and Coptic Egypt. He suggests that much of the contact took place before the Muslim Conquest of 640. There exists evidence of a Mediterranean trade in a single passage in the life of St. John the Almsgiver (Ioannes III Eleemon), Greek Patriarch of Alexandria between 610-621, in which reference is made to a vessel sailing to Alexandria from Britain with a cargo of tin, doubtless come from Cornwall or Somerset.

King observes that the kind of asceticism associated with the Desert Fathers was especially congenial to the Irish but refers to Dom Henri Leclercq’s suggestion that Celtic monasticism was directly derived from Egypt, as an “unsubstantiated hypothesis”. No serious historian, however, would deny that first-hand knowledge of the Desert Fathers was brought directly to the South of Gaul by St. John Cassian and that the links between the British and Gallican churches were especially strong at this period. King nevertheless admits that the grouping together of several small churches within a cashel or fortified enclosure seems to support Leclercq’s view.

King mentions an Ogham inscription on a stone near St. Olan’s Well in the parish of Aghabulloge, County Cork, which scholars interpret as reading: ‘Pray for Olan the Egyptian.’ Professor Stokes tells us5 about the Irish monk Dicuil, who around 825 wrote his Liber de Mensure orbis terre describing the pyramids as well as an ancient precursor of the Suez Canal. It would seem that Egypt was often visited by pilgrims to the Holy Land. Stokes instances the Saltair Na Rann, an anthology of biblical poems attributed to Oengus the Culdee, but containing the sixth or seventh century Book of Adam and Eve, composed in Egypt and known in no other European country except Ireland.

King also notes that one of the commonest names for townlands or parishes is Disert or ‘Desert’: a solitary place in which anchorites were established. Presumably the same etymology gives us the Scottish Dysart, just north of Kirkcaldy, and the Welsh Dyserth, to the south of Prestatyn ? This would then present a consistent picture common to Celtic Christianity. The Martyrology of Oengus the Culdee, an early ninth century monastic bishop of Clonenagh (Co. Offaly) and later of Tallaght, has a litany invoking ‘Seven monks of Egypt in Disert Uilaig, I invoke unto my aid, through Jesus Christ.’ [Morfesseor do manchaib Egipr(e) in disiurt Uilaig]. The Antiphonary of Bangor (dating from between 680-691) also contains the text:

” … Domus deliciis plena Super petram constructa Necnon vinea vera Ex Aegypto transducta …”

which is translated as:

” … House full of delight Built on the rock And indeed true vine Translanted from Egypt …”

Providence undoubtedly put me in touch with Fr. Feargal Patrick McGrady, priest of Ballymena, County Antrim in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Down and Connor. As well as being a native of Downpatrick (the burial place of St. Patrick), Father Feargal is enthusiastic about the Eastern churches and holds His Holiness Pope Shenouda in high esteem. He was delighted to assist with my enquiries and very soon made contacts with local historians, who are the real source of the information we need.

Dr. Cahal Dallat, Genealogist and Historical Consultant, of Ballycastle, County Antrim, identified Disert Ilidh or Uilaigh with Dundesert, near Crumlin, county Antrim, which is to the north-west of Belfast, the capital of Northern Ireland, between Belfast International Airport and Templepatrick.

Mr. Bobbie Burns, a local historian living in Crumlin, was another link in the chain. He produced a report in the Belfast Telegraph of 13th July 1936 under the headline “Unique Once Famous Ulster Church: Neglected Crumlin Ruins”, which showed the ruins of the medieval church built on the site of an earlier shrine. The local historical group is taking a renewed interest in the site and the local Protestant landowner has given permission for them to come and go freely to the site. It is hoped that they might obtain a grant to restore the dilapidated ruins but they are excited by its more ancient and possible Coptic connections. The site is approached by a path along the side of a grazing field 200-300 metres from Poplar Road. It is on the steep bank of the Crumlin River, which is a large free-flowing river, but is more than 100 metres from the water. Access is easy in dry weather, but not pleasant after heavy rain. The terrain inside the enclosure is very rough. The ground is strewn with boulders which have either fallen or been removed from the medieval walls. Parts of the medieval walls, in places three feet thick and covered in ivy, survive on the east (or gable) and south sides. The east wall contains two arched recesses or sedilia, now only about four feet in height but probably much higher if their foundations were cleared of the extensive in-fill of stones and earth. The gable rises to around thirty feet in height but a number of stones have already been removed and were any more to go it would be undermined and likely to collapse. What remains of the wall at the other end is much lower. It is likely that the whole structure would have been removed long ago but for the difficulties of dislodging stone from the walls and the problem of transportation to the road.

We are grateful for the efforts of these local enthusiasts for having preserved these ancient ruins and look forward to making further discoveries about the last resting place of the seven monks of Egypt.

Abba Seraphim[/QUOTE]

HERE IS A LINK TO A PDF DOCUMENT THAT CAN BE DOWNLOADED

EGYPTIANS IN IRELAND: A QUESTION
OF COPTIC PEREGRINATIONS
by Robert K. Ritner, Jr.


http://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/handle/1911/63225/article_RIP622_part6.pdf?sequence=1

rms2
03-30-2014, 08:59 PM
Believe what you wish. A Coptic connection to Ireland seems highly dubious to me. There is a relatively new "British Orthodox Church" that a few years ago affiliated itself with the Copts of Egypt and is always looking for authentication via alleged connections between ancient churches and the British Isles (including Ireland).

Following the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451, the Copts were considered heretics outside the Catholic Church. That is simply a fact, and requires no tenuous arguments based on dubious artistic or architectural resemblances.

Rory Cain
03-30-2014, 11:10 PM
O'Rahilly has waves of invaders, starting with the Cruithne ca 700-500 BC. It would appear that you have not read O'Rahilly but relied upon a third source who has misinformed you.

I must confess that I have not read O’Rahilly in over two years and before that I read it only once. I found it to be an extremely depressing read in which he found lies and deceit in almost every pedigree and some of the conclusions he came to were completely ludicrious. His mission seemed to be to completely debunk the existence of any ancient Royal line while belittling other historian’s who did not agree with his theories. I recall that Clan McLaughlin frequently quoted sections of his work to attack what their website termed as the “not so Royal O’Neill’s” who did not measure up to the M222 Niall story.


The point I was trying to make regarding Navan Fort is that an Irish Royal line definitely existed around 600 BC which is the earliest date that excavations of the site record and there is no mention of this in O’Rahilly’s work that I can recall however like I said I have not read his book in over two years so maybe I will dust off the cobwebs and have a fresh look at his various theories because so much has changed in two years, particularly on the SNP front.

I quite agree that if you read O'Rahilly again in the light of recent SNP discoveries, and doing a memory dump of the Tara Myth so that doesn't act as a set of blinkers, you may find some of what you seek. I like Fr Tom O'Connor's "Hand of History" as a follow-up to O'Rahilly. Not saying that both accounts aren't without their defects. But what emerges is not a set of present-day provinces based on their present-day borders and inhabited by a monoculture of DF49. History of smaller tribes that has been buried will re-emerge. Some will be DF21, some will be Z253. Neither O'Rahilly nor O'Connor had the benefit of DNA evidence. Enjoy reading those two works. I look forward to continuing our chat in due course.

Rory

oneillabu
04-02-2014, 09:04 PM
I quite agree that if you read O'Rahilly again in the light of recent SNP discoveries, and doing a memory dump of the Tara Myth so that doesn't act as a set of blinkers, you may find some of what you seek. I like Fr Tom O'Connor's "Hand of History" as a follow-up to O'Rahilly. Not saying that both accounts aren't without their defects. But what emerges is not a set of present-day provinces based on their present-day borders and inhabited by a monoculture of DF49. History of smaller tribes that has been buried will re-emerge. Some will be DF21, some will be Z253. Neither O'Rahilly nor O'Connor had the benefit of DNA evidence. Enjoy reading those two works. I look forward to continuing our chat in due course.

Rory

You rightly questioned my statement on O’Rahilly which was based on a hazy recollection from over two years ago. When it comes to DF49 however you are the one using blinkers, your assumption the main Irish Chiefly lines comprised of DF49 is based on what evidence? Have you even looked at the surnames in the DF49 project group? Here is a breakdown of 34 DF49+ / DF23- people from the project by surname origin.

TOTAL ENGLISH 44% (8 Anglo Saxon names and 6 Anglo Norman names)

TOTAL SCOTTISH 37% (6 Scottish border names, 3 Strathclyde Briton names, 1 Gallowglass name, 1 Aberdeenshire name and 1 Hebridean name)

TOTAL WELSH 9% (2 Welsh Brythonic names and 1 North Wales name)

TOTAL IRISH 9% (2 Munster names and 1 Leinster or Connaught name)

What are really interesting are the lowland Scottish and Welsh names because the Strathclyde Britons occupied the border Scottish region and parts of North Wales. This pattern is repeated in M222+ people with the origin of M222 almost certainly in the Scottish border region. Like I said, I base my research on actual results, not wishful thinking agendas.

Rory Cain
04-03-2014, 01:55 AM
You rightly questioned my statement on O’Rahilly which was based on a hazy recollection from over two years ago. When it comes to DF49 however you are the one using blinkers, your assumption the main Irish Chiefly lines comprised of DF49 is based on what evidence? Have you even looked at the surnames in the DF49 project group? Here is a breakdown of 34 DF49+ / DF23- people from the project by surname origin.

TOTAL ENGLISH 44% (8 Anglo Saxon names and 6 Anglo Norman names)

TOTAL SCOTTISH 37% (6 Scottish border names, 3 Strathclyde Briton names, 1 Gallowglass name, 1 Aberdeenshire name and 1 Hebridean name)

TOTAL WELSH 9% (2 Welsh Brythonic names and 1 North Wales name)

TOTAL IRISH 9% (2 Munster names and 1 Leinster or Connaught name)

What are really interesting are the lowland Scottish and Welsh names because the Strathclyde Britons occupied the border Scottish region and parts of North Wales. This pattern is repeated in M222+ people with the origin of M222 almost certainly in the Scottish border region. Like I said, I base my research on actual results, not wishful thinking agendas.

I must have expressed myself poorly. My aploogies. That is not my assumption at all re DF49, although a genetic monoculture would be the only conclusion consistent with the Irish Nation all descending from one small band of brothers.

believe the Irish genetic landscape is more of a checkerboard than the monoculture of the sons of Mil, whatever their defining SNP might have been. The Milesian Myth does not allow for plurality. That's why the more pluralistic O'Rahilly and O'Connor are far more informative.

Dubhthach
04-03-2014, 08:31 AM
I'm assuming when Rory talked about DF49, he was talking about DF49 in it's entirety (just as we talk about DF21 or DF41 in it's entirety) and not specifically about DF49** (negative for all subclades).

Of course I'd be interested in the origin of any of the major DF13 subclades, personally I've no problem if DF41 arose in what is now Britain during the Iron age. After all it was a insular celtic speaking milieu, just like the one present on this island (Ireland) at the same time. We know archaelogy speaking that there were ties between Northern Britain and the Northern half of Ireland in the period 300BC up until the Roman conquest. In context of the Dál Cuinn (of which the Uí Néill were a branch of) their origin myths specifically talk about Tuathal Teachtmar been in exile in northern Britain having been born there, his mother having fled while pregnant with him, she been the daughter of the "King of Alba" -- Alba in this case been the older meaning of word, meaning "Britain" (akin to Albion) and not Scotland.

Rory Cain
04-03-2014, 11:42 PM
I'm assuming when Rory talked about DF49, he was talking about DF49 in it's entirety (just as we talk about DF21 or DF41 in it's entirety) and not specifically about DF49** (negative for all subclades).

Of course I'd be interested in the origin of any of the major DF13 subclades, personally I've no problem if DF41 arose in what is now Britain during the Iron age. After all it was a insular celtic speaking milieu, just like the one present on this island (Ireland) at the same time. We know archaelogy speaking that there were ties between Northern Britain and the Northern half of Ireland in the period 300BC up until the Roman conquest. In context of the Dál Cuinn (of which the Uí Néill were a branch of) their origin myths specifically talk about Tuathal Teachtmar been in exile in northern Britain having been born there, his mother having fled while pregnant with him, she been the daughter of the "King of Alba" -- Alba in this case been the older meaning of word, meaning "Britain" (akin to Albion) and not Scotland.

You're right, I was talking about DF49 in general, and must have expressed myself poorly. If the Milesians (who we now know to be mytical) had indeed existed and were indeed DF49 as many assume, then there is a big problem in Leinster where their supposed offshoot and its clan surnames are often L159.2 and likewise in Munster where it is even more of a checkerboard. The concept of "Milesian" appears to be more a cobbled-together bunch of ruling provincial dynasties from different genetic streams, CTS4466, P314.2 and others.

The O Cathain chiefs of Cenel Sedna have a genealogy that makes them a branch of the Ui Fiachra Aidhne. Yet most branches of the Ui Fiachra are M222, like the Ui Briuin and at least portions of the Ui Niall, including our namesakes, the O Cathain chiefs of Ciannachta Glinne-Geimhein in north Derry. But the surnames Cain, Kane, Keane & Mahon in south Galway are mostly DF21. Mahon can come from two sources: O Mochain, a follower of O Cathain; and O'Maghna, Chiefs of Ui Fiachra Aidhne until dispossessed by deposed by their Ui Fiachra "kin". It is somewhat problematic to identify whether the M222+ Oh Eidhin, O Seanasaigh, MacGiollacheallaigh, O Cleirigh, O Cathail & O Scanlon septs were the original Ui Fiachra or whether it was O Cathain, O Mochain & O Maghna.

However the Cathanach (O Cathains) already had another genealogy from Munster as the Tradraige, and even after losing their Tradree, Co Clare territory due to their support for the Ui Fiachra dynasty, they bore the name Tradraige Dubh-ros in their new home nearer the Ui Fiachra heartland around Kinvarradoorus. Likewise the neighbouring Caonraige from Kenry Co Limerick relocated to Aidhne and retained the tribal name Caonraige until when surnames were adopted, they became O'Maghna. This indicates a more diverse genetic landscape than the sons of Mil as Ard Righ from time immemorial.

So yes, I was only speaking of DF49 generally, and even then making the point that whoever DF49 were, there was and remains a DF21 strata to Irish society (and DF41) and other non-DF49 that the Milesian Myth has covered over.

oneillabu
04-06-2014, 02:28 PM
I quite agree that if you read O'Rahilly again in the light of recent SNP discoveries, and doing a memory dump of the Tara Myth so that doesn't act as a set of blinkers, you may find some of what you seek. I like Fr Tom O'Connor's "Hand of History" as a follow-up to O'Rahilly. Not saying that both accounts aren't without their defects. But what emerges is not a set of present-day provinces based on their present-day borders and inhabited by a monoculture of DF49. History of smaller tribes that has been buried will re-emerge. Some will be DF21, some will be Z253. Neither O'Rahilly nor O'Connor had the benefit of DNA evidence. Enjoy reading those two works. I look forward to continuing our chat in due course.

Rory

What we need to do is to break down the research into three periods, the first being the early to late Bronze Age and access the merits of the various historians theories. The advantage we have over people like McNeill, Rahilly, Pokorny and other early writers is obviously DNA as well as carbon dated finds from various excavations.

Let’s look at the various theories starting with the work of the celebrated German Celtic historian Julius Pokorny in the early 1900’s. I am fortunate to have an English translation of his work “A History of Ireland” translated by Seana D. King.

Here are the main points by Pokerny on Bronze age Ireland

It is possible that a small dark haired long-headed people found in the ancient territories of the Cruithin (Picts) are the descendents of palaeolilithic inhabitants of Britain during the ice age. He does not say whether he feels that these are actually the picts themselves.

He makes a correlation between the skin boats used by the ancient Irish and those used by the Eskimo’s and says that there is a possibility that these early inhabitants namely the Fir Bolg were descended from these Eskimo’s from Greenland, Iceland and the Faroe Islands. He a correlation between Bolg (bag or pouch) and the skin boats used on the river Boyne in ancient Ireland. He also compares the weapon of Cu Culainn the Gae Bolga to the Eskimo’s harpoon as further evidence of this connection

He states that the earliest traces of human habitation in Ireland date from 3500 BC and belong to the Campignian Culture-province and states that traces of Asturian point to a direct immigration from Spain.

He cites a second migration from Spain of dark haired long-headed Iberians as proven and states that this migration was partly direct from Spain and partly through Brittany and Cornwall and took place in the early bronze age (2000 – 1500 BC). This Mediterranean race took possession of the entire island of Ireland and was responsible for the construction of the Megalithic standing stones, dolmens and stone circles. He further states that in the bronze age they carried on a brisk trade with Spain, France and Scandinavia being in possession of the Tin mines of Cornwall and also large quantities of Irish gold from the Wicklow hills making Ireland the fabulous gold country of the old world. This Irish influence was to be found in the early Bronze Age Germanic culture areas as shown by ornamented axes.

He quotes the Kelts as being a branch of the western group of Aryans, a race of tall long headed aristocratic conquerors with fair hair, blue eyes and light skins and similar in culture to the ancient Teutons. He feels that the home of these Kelts seems to be in north-eastern France, eastern Switzerland, and the German Rhine basin, upper Austria, Salzburg and southern Germany.

In the late Halstatt period about 600 BC a powerful Keltic invasion spread throughout northern, middle and western Spain from the western Pyrenees and it was here that the Kelts first came to the notice of the classical writers

The round barrow men who invaded Britain at the beginning of the bronze age (2000 BC) were a mixture of Nordic Proto-Kelts from Germany and the dark brachycephalic beaker folk from the upper Rhine who originated in Spain. These people conquered the entire Island of Britain with the exception of Cornwall and never made it to Ireland.

The first group of purely Keltic invaders (Goidelic Kelts) seem to have landed in England about 1000 BC coming from the lower Rhine and mouths of the Seine and Somme. At the beginning of the fourth period of the bronze age (900 BC) they crossed to the North East of Ireland through Scotland where they spread over the entire Island interrupting the evolution of the bronze age and bringing with them entirely new types of weapons (socketed axes and slashing swords) and pottery (encrusted urns). The assertion by other writers and initially by myself that this Goidelic invasion took place in 300 BC can no longer be sustained in light of new archaeological discoveries.

The iron age culture that was introduced into Ireland around 250 BC was introduced by Brythonic Kelts from Britain who quickly became absorbed by the native Goidels. This invasion was as a result of continuous pressure from the expansion of Teutonic tribes as far as Marne which resulted in fresh Brythonic Keltic invasions of Britain resulting in the Brythonic iron age introduction to Ireland.

There followed Belgian invasions into Britain around 75 and 50 BC. These Belgae were a mixed race of Teutons and Kelts but there language was Keltic. Some of these sailed up the east coast of Ireland where the names Manapioi, Kaukoi, Koriondoi used by Ptolemy in the first century AD testify to the fact that was a settlement of Belgic and Teutonic sea-rovers in the district because all of these names are Teutonic.

The changes which the original Keltic language has undergone on Irish soil are traceable to the influence of a non Aryan substratum which was related chiefly to the languages of the old Hamatic white populations of North Africa such as Berber and Old Egyptian which was the original language of the white race.

This was a brief summary of Pokorny’s analysis of Ireland in the early to late Bronze Age ending in the beginning of the Iron Age. We can immediately dismiss any genetic connection to the Eskimo’s because we know that they are haplotype Q however that does not dismiss his view that the skin boats technology did not find its way to Ireland via the Faroe Islands and Scotland.

Heber
04-10-2014, 01:11 PM
April 23rd is the 1,000th anniversary of the death of Brian Boru, the most famous and, arguably, the greatest Irishman before the modern era. He died in his hour of victory at the Battle of Clontarf, after a lifetime of remarkable achievement.
The man we call Brian Boru – Brian of Béal Bóraimhe, near Killaloe in Co Clare – was from a Munster family formerly of no great distinction. He was born into an Ireland that was hidebound by tradition, where political power was dominated by a single great dynasty, the Uí Néill.
These descendants of the eponymous and perhaps mythical Niall of the Nine Hostages occupied a vast swathe of Ireland, their southern branch inhabiting the midlands from the Shannon to the Irish Sea, the northern Uí Néill ruling from modern Donegal to the River Bann.
More to those Vikings than swords and hoards
900 years later: how nationalists adopted Brian Boru in 1914
The long Good Friday: ‘Nobody could recognise even his own son, so covered were they in blood’

For half a millennium, until Brian came along, the Uí Néill had held exclusive rights to the almost mystical “kingship of Tara”. Over the course of time, and certainly during the ninth and 10th centuries, an equation came to be made between possession of this arcane trophy and exclusive entitlement to the kingship of all Ireland.
This meant that, although at any one time upwards of half a dozen provincial rulers were powerful enough to bid for national supremacy, the force of tradition and Uí Néill propaganda combined to deny them the honour.
This is why Brian Boru was a hugely important figure, even before his triumph at Clontarf. He flouted this convention. For 20 years this upstart led a political and military struggle to undermine the ruling dynasty. And by the year 1002 Brian had succeeded in forcing the Uí Néill high king, Máel Sechnaill mac Domnaill, to recognise him as his superior.
It was a landmark in Irish history. Brian had demonstrated that one did not have to be a descendant of the eponymous Niall to put forward a claim to the high kingship.

1701

oneillabu
04-11-2014, 03:30 PM
What we need to do is to break down the research into three periods, the first being the early to late Bronze Age and access the merits of the various historians theories. The advantage we have over people like McNeill, Rahilly, Pokorny and other early writers is obviously DNA as well as carbon dated finds from various excavations.

.

Here is a summary of O’Rahilly’s view of Late bronze age and early Iron Age Ireland

On the Son’s of Mil

This was an elaborate attempt to obscure the origins of the Irish people however they did not succeed in obliterating all the evidence which told a different story.

O’Rahilly’s theory on the stages of occupation of Ireland

(1) Cruithin (Priteni) after who these Islands were known to the Greeks as the Pretanic Islands. In early historical times they preserved their individuality best in the North of Britain where they were known to Latin writers as Picti. (We may assume from this that O’Rahilly made no distinction between Irish and Scottish Picts)

(2) The Builg, commonly called Fir Bolg and also known as Erainn (Iverni). Their name Bolgi identifies them with the Belgae of the continent and of Britain. According to Irish tradition they were of the same stock as the Britons and their own invasion legend tells how their ancestor Lugaid came from Britain and conquered Ireland.

(3) A group of tribes whom we may call the Laganian Invaders and who included the Lagin, the Domnainn and the Galioin. These latter two tribes were admittedly pre-Goidelic and partly for this reason their names fell into disuse, but under the name Lagin those of the invaders that had held on to their conquests in Mid and South Leinster were provided with a fictitious Goidelic pedigree. According to their own invasion-legend they were in origin Gauls, who invaded Ireland from Armorica. Their conquest of Ireland was a partial one, confined for practical purposes to considerable parts of Leinster and Connaught. These Lagan invaders were a branch of the Dumnonii of Devon or Cornwall.

(4) The Goidels, the latest of the Celtic invaders, and the only Q-Celts among them. They reached Ireland direct from Gaul, and their arrival cannot have been much anterior to the extinction of Gaulish independence (50 BC) and probably took place around 100 BC.


O’Rahilly on Ptolemy’s map of Ireland (roughly AD 90–168)

While the evidence of the names in Ptolemy’s account of Ireland shows plainly that the Ireland he describes was a Celtic speaking Ireland, none of the names has anything peculiarly Goidelic about its form, on the contrary there is positive evidence to show that the Celtic spoken in Ptolemy’s Ireland was of the Brittonic type.

Of the presence of the Builg or Erainn in Ptolemy’s Ireland there is unmistakable evidence in such names as Uluti, Darini, Iverni. On the other hand there is not a trace of any Goidelic tribal name.

There is no trace in Connaught of a Laganian invader presence during on Ptolemy’s map of Ireland. It remains to be seen whether any of the tribes of the Laganian invasion of Ireland left a mark during this period in the South East of Ireland where they most permanently left their mark.

Bearing on the date of the invasion of the Erainn or Builg from the account of Ireland that Ptolemy has preserved there is good reason to believe that the Erainn were the dominant power in Ireland in 325 BC

Given that we have dated Ptolemy’s map of Ireland to 325 BC the ascendency of the Priteni has given way to that of the Erainn or Bolgi at this time. He produces no explanation or evidence for dating the origin of Ptolemy’s map 400 years earlier than when it was compiled.

oneillabu
04-12-2014, 12:35 PM
What we need to do is to break down the research into three periods, the first being the early to late Bronze Age and access the merits of the various historians theories. The advantage we have over people like McNeill, Rahilly, Pokorny and other early writers is obviously DNA as well as carbon dated finds from various excavations.



This summary is from an interesting book by Hal McGregor called “Picts of the Ullaid”

Pre-Historic Times

10,000BC - The earliest humans arrived in Ireland, in the Mesolithic or Middle Stone Age period as
the northern hemispheres was recovering from the last ice age. They crossed by land from Albann.
These people were mainly hunter/gatherers.

6,000BC - Neolithic Europeans introduced lake dwelling to the British Isles.

3000BC - Agrarian colonists of the Neolithic period reached Ireland. Remnants of their civilization
have been excavated at Lough Gur in Co. Limerick. They traded in products, such as axe-heads.
One of their monuments, a megalithic tomb at Newgrange in Co. Meath, has survived.

2000BC - Beaker people, who were bronze and gold metalworkers, arrived. Metal deposits were
discovered, and objects were made.

1200BC - More people reached Ireland, producing a greater variety of weapons and artifacts. A
common dwelling of this period was the "crannog", an artificial island, constructed in a lake.

750BC - Iron technology Cruithni tribes came to Ireland from Albann; which they continued to call
their fatherland for a thousand years. They established two kingdoms in Ireland, one in the south
and one in the north. The one in the north was dominated by the Dal n’Araidh, and they called
themselves “Ulladd” (those who slaughter), from which Ulster was named. The Ulladd became the
elite class in the north.

400BC - The south of Hibernia was settled primarily by P-Celtic speaking Gaulish Celts called
‘firbolg’ (men from Belgium) or Erainn. Celtic Ireland was not politically unified, only by culture and
language. The country was divided into about 150 miniature kingdoms, each called a 'tuath'. A
local king ruled a 'tuath', subject to a more powerful king who ruled a group of tuaths, who was in
theory, subject to one of the five provincial kings. This struggle for living space caused constant
fighting and a shifting in power, among the most powerful contenders, as was the Celtic way
throughout Europe. There were no towns. Society was stratified into classes, and was regulated
by Celtic Brehan Laws, based largely on the concepts of the 'tuath' as the political body, and the
'fine', or Clanna as the social unit.

By 350BC, European P-Celtic speaking LaTene Celts had overwhelmed Britain, pushing as far
north as Strathclyde in Albann and from there, into Hibernia. The pre-Celtic inhabitants called
those newcomers "S'Goth" (boat people. These Brythonic Celts in Britain were the ancestors of
the modern day Welsh. In Ireland, they established homelands throughout the island.
The Cruithni dominated the north. The close proximity of the north of Hibernia to Albann (12 miles
across the strait) meant Pictish kingdoms often encompassed both parts of western Albann and
parts of northern Ulidia. Several High Kings of Albann were recorded as also being kings of
Ireland (northern). The Cruithni stayed near the coast, as their ancestors had flourished in Moray
on the Northeast coast of Albann, and they were expert at surviving on shoreline flora and fauna.

In 325 BC, Pytheas [a Greek geographer], referred to the British Isles (Britain, Hibernia and the Isle
of Man) as the 'Isles of the Pretani'. There were no Milesian Celts there yet, and Q-Celtic had died
out except in some isolated places. In 150AD, Ptolemy drew a map of Hibernia, which was based
on the epic voyage of Pytheas 175 years earlier.
His map contains some identifiable names such as the Volunti (people of good-will) in the Northeast.
Ptolemy wrote: "The Pretani are the ancient British people, and are made up of the Picts of
Albann, the Britons of Cymru (pronounced Kemry) and the Cruithni of Hibernia."


About 250 BC, Brythonic Laigin Celts settled in the south east. Around 150 BC, Goidelic Q-Celtic
speaking Celts (Gaels) arrived in southern Ireland directly from southwestern Europe, and quickly
expanded northwards, overwhelming the Erainn and Laigin. They established a classical European
style Celtic system of two classes, one of Druids & warriors, and the other comprising the earlier
inhabitants who were the food producers. When they confronted the Brythonic Celts in the north,
a thousand year war erupted.

Two large tribes of Firbolg sought sanctuary in the north. The Dal Fiatach (kindred of the wild
ones) settled in County Down and the Dal Riata settled in northern Antrim. These two tribes paid a
yearly tribute to the dominating Cruithni tribes; who allowed them to enter.

The Firbolg and Cruithni cooperated in the face of an alien enemy, and became fierce and efficient
fighters. As a price for their protection, the Cruithni and all people who lived in the Kingdom of
Ulidia were obliged to serve in the army of the Ulladd, when required. In return, the strong Ulladd
army protected all Ulster tribes from southern Gaelic incursions, and fought a centuries long series
of wars to maintain their independence. Therefore, the Kings of the Ulladd were considered to be
the Overlords of Greater Ulster, roughly one third of Ireland.

43AD- On the British mainland, Roman Legions invaded the Brythonic Celts. By 78AD, the soldier-
Governor, Agricola, had conquered all of southern Britain. He then decided to eliminate
harassment by the “Caledonians”. In 79AD, he pushed up to the Tyne and Solway, established
there a line of forts from sea to sea.

Many of the Picts in Galloway were in close contact with their fellow Picts in Ulster, so when the
Romans came, many fled across the Irish Sea to safety. By this time, the Romans had a grip on all
of mainland Britain except northern Albann, where they had built two massive defensive walls, and
were paying the Picts not to attack. With those borders secure, there was a distinct possibility the
expanding Roman Empire would attack Ireland.

123AD- First year of Conn of 100 battles as Ard Righ of Ireland.

Heber
04-13-2014, 04:07 PM
Bart Jaski gave a great talk on the genealogies of the Dal Cais at the Battle of Clontarf conference in TCD. He also published a paper called "Medieval Irish Genealogies and Genetics" in the book edited by Professor Sean Duffy called "Princes Prelates and Poets in Medieval (Essays in honour of Catherine Simms). In the same book Professor Catherine Swift published "Genealogies and Genetics in twenty-first century Ireland". Two excellent papers which clearly show the emergence of historians using the modern tools of genetic genealogy and providing and alternative view to papers published by geneticists eg McEvoy, Bradley etc. I bought the book at the conference and it comes highly recommended. http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/product.php?intProductID=1007

Rory Cain
04-15-2014, 03:00 AM
Here is a summary of O’Rahilly’s view of Late bronze age and early Iron Age Ireland

On the Son’s of Mil

This was an elaborate attempt to obscure the origins of the Irish people however they did not succeed in obliterating all the evidence which told a different story.

O’Rahilly’s theory on the stages of occupation of Ireland

(1) Cruithin (Priteni) after who these Islands were known to the Greeks as the Pretanic Islands. In early historical times they preserved their individuality best in the North of Britain where they were known to Latin writers as Picti. (We may assume from this that O’Rahilly made no distinction between Irish and Scottish Picts)

(2) The Builg, commonly called Fir Bolg and also known as Erainn (Iverni). Their name Bolgi identifies them with the Belgae of the continent and of Britain. According to Irish tradition they were of the same stock as the Britons and their own invasion legend tells how their ancestor Lugaid came from Britain and conquered Ireland.

(3) A group of tribes whom we may call the Laganian Invaders and who included the Lagin, the Domnainn and the Galioin. These latter two tribes were admittedly pre-Goidelic and partly for this reason their names fell into disuse, but under the name Lagin those of the invaders that had held on to their conquests in Mid and South Leinster were provided with a fictitious Goidelic pedigree. According to their own invasion-legend they were in origin Gauls, who invaded Ireland from Armorica. Their conquest of Ireland was a partial one, confined for practical purposes to considerable parts of Leinster and Connaught. These Lagan invaders were a branch of the Dumnonii of Devon or Cornwall.

(4) The Goidels, the latest of the Celtic invaders, and the only Q-Celts among them. They reached Ireland direct from Gaul, and their arrival cannot have been much anterior to the extinction of Gaulish independence (50 BC) and probably took place around 100 BC.


O’Rahilly on Ptolemy’s map of Ireland (roughly AD 90–168)

While the evidence of the names in Ptolemy’s account of Ireland shows plainly that the Ireland he describes was a Celtic speaking Ireland, none of the names has anything peculiarly Goidelic about its form, on the contrary there is positive evidence to show that the Celtic spoken in Ptolemy’s Ireland was of the Brittonic type.

Of the presence of the Builg or Erainn in Ptolemy’s Ireland there is unmistakable evidence in such names as Uluti, Darini, Iverni. On the other hand there is not a trace of any Goidelic tribal name.

There is no trace in Connaught of a Laganian invader presence during on Ptolemy’s map of Ireland. It remains to be seen whether any of the tribes of the Laganian invasion of Ireland left a mark during this period in the South East of Ireland where they most permanently left their mark.

Bearing on the date of the invasion of the Erainn or Builg from the account of Ireland that Ptolemy has preserved there is good reason to believe that the Erainn were the dominant power in Ireland in 325 BC

Given that we have dated Ptolemy’s map of Ireland to 325 BC the ascendency of the Priteni has given way to that of the Erainn or Bolgi at this time. He produces no explanation or evidence for dating the origin of Ptolemy’s map 400 years earlier than when it was compiled.

I also posted a greatly summarised extract of O'Rahilly's Historical Model on the Anthrogenica thread, "Tom O'Connor's Hand of History", a thread which compliments the direct this thread is going at present. O'Rahilly was modest enough to consider his beefs a Model, and subject to modification. One modification might be adding an aboriginal element prior to the arrival of the Cruithne. Another might be deleting entirely the mythical sons of Mil of whom there is no historical record.

Dubhthach
04-15-2014, 08:30 AM
Why do people keep bringing up O'Rahilly, he's been dead for over 60 years. Irish Historiography has moved on in the mean time.

-Paul
(DF41+)

LUKE33
04-15-2014, 08:51 AM
Why do people keep bringing up O'Rahilly, he's been dead for over 60 years. Irish histology has moved on in the mean time.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Sorry, but you meant historical linguistics ? not Histology : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histology

T. F. O'Rahilly : Historical linguist.

Rory Cain
04-15-2014, 09:15 AM
Why do people keep bringing up O'Rahilly, he's been dead for over 60 years. Irish histology has moved on in the mean time.

-Paul
(DF41+)

People? Oh, you mean me! Well, given the choice between the revisionists and the actual historians, I choose the latter. Even as late as Keating, Irish so-called "history" was just revisionism- nothing new, just revising the same old same old, especially the discredited sons of Mil mythology. To his credit, O'Rahilly dug deeper than that. I don't consider O'Rahilly the final word though. He too was so brought conned by the sons of Mil myth that he was unable to discard it, even with no evidence to support it. O'Connor's Hand of History is another that anyone raised on the sons of Mil myth ought to read.

However we have had this discussion before and each time you bring your distaste for O'Rahilly into the discussion, I ask you if you have a better historical model than O'Rahilly's. If you have I am most happy to hear it. But you know that, Paul, for I have said so before. As Michelangelo said, "Ancora imparo" or "I am still learning". I have yet to learn what you consider better than O'Rahilly, only that you dislike him. Perhaps this will be the occasion you will share. I am open to whatever your historical model may be.

Cheers

Rory

Dubhthach
04-15-2014, 09:17 AM
Sorry, but you meant historical linguistics ? not Histology : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histology

T. F. O'Rahilly : Historical linguist.

Historiography even, faux pas on my part. As for "historical linguistics" O'Rahilly is wrong anyways in his findings. Again the study/"science" of Irish pre-history has moved on hugely in the last 60 years. I really do wonder is the reliance on stuff like O'Rahilly due to it been given a second life on the Internet and people not reading the relevant history journals/academic publications.

-Paul
(DF41+)

LUKE33
04-15-2014, 09:24 AM
Historiography even, faux pas on my part. As for "historical linguistics" O'Rahilly is wrong anyways in his findings. Again the study/"science" of Irish pre-history has moved on hugely in the last 60 years. I really do wonder is the reliance on stuff like O'Rahilly due to it been given a second life on the Internet and people not reading the relevant history journals/academic publications.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Ok - I see.

Rory Cain
04-16-2014, 02:00 AM
Historiography even, faux pas on my part. As for "historical linguistics" O'Rahilly is wrong anyways in his findings. Again the study/"science" of Irish pre-history has moved on hugely in the last 60 years. I really do wonder is the reliance on stuff like O'Rahilly due to it been given a second life on the Internet and people not reading the relevant history journals/academic publications.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Phew, for while there I thought you were going to support your anti-O'Rahilly stance with linguistics. Not my field at all. Although I do recall one historian stating that linguists have universally failed to find support for the Gaelic language arriving from Spain, whether with the mythical sons of Mil or with anyone else.

But since you are talking historiography, a field with which I am familiar, haven't you unwittingly placed O'Rahilly back in the picture? O'Rahilly marks a division between revisions and historiography. The nonsense written before O'Rahilly was just revisionism, always revising the same old same old about High Kings of Tara from time immemorial.

O'Rahilly, for all his linguistic errors, departed from revisionism and went down the historiography path. His chapter on the Laigin peels back the false of the Laigin being Milesian, and reveals others layers of Irish society who preceded the Lagin but were incorporated into their genealogy. These earlier people include tribes belonging to the Cruithin and the Brigantes/ Ui Bairrche. If, as many assume, the sons of Mil were DF49, the L159.2 Laigin cannot have been Milesian.

Would those journals you suggest I have not read include ones like the excavations on the Isle of Lambay of the burial of a Briganten noble? The entire tribe of the Brigantes was buried by the revisionists because they didn't know how to handle Prolomey's map of Ireland showing Brigantes, Coriondi etc from Britain and Menapi from Belgica. And now, possibly we are on the verge of identifying these historical tribes with the DNA record, at which point we leave O'Rahilly behind but thank for studying material discarded by others.

Dubhthach
04-16-2014, 08:47 AM
O'Rahilly is patently wrong on the linguistics front. He claims that there was Brythonic language in Ireland and that "Proto-Goidelic" arrived with his "Midlandian Gaels" in the period 200-100BC from Gaul no less. This makes no sense within context of Celtic phylogeny. It's fairly obviously that Goidelic is an early branch within the overall Celtic family. It's separation date from Brythonic has been dated to period 900BC-1200BC in a number of studies. A similar date for the separation from Gaulish.

O'Rahilly used the LGÉ (Lebor Gabála Érenn -- Leabhar Gabhála na hÉireann in Modern Irish) as his basic guide for determining his mythical "invasions". The problem is there is no archaeology to back up any of this. He also ignores the fact the highest concentration of Ogham stones are in areas connected to what he called the Érainn (basically Munster). Ogham is the oldest form of Goidelic know. It's considerably scarcer in regions connected to his purported "Midlandian Gaels" namely the Dál Cuinn (or as they were know earlier the "Moccu Cuinn") which consist of the Connachta and the Uí Néill. Let he considers the Érainn as been P-Celtic.

The archaeology is showing that Ireland underwent a dark age after decline of Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-800BC) which lasted about 500 years. There is continuity during this period though with items found in it (quite fewer finds) and those found in the preceding late Bronze age stage. We only see renewed change from about 300BC onwards when contact with Northern Britain see's the arrival of La Tene style items into the North-East and gradual spell southward (with a fair bit of local copy/insular styles based on La Tene type material). The general line of La Tene style finds basically matches the pseudo-historical division into Leath Cuinn (Conn's half) and Leath Mogha (the half of Mugh Nuadhat -- aka Eoghain Mór -- aka titular founder of Eoghanacht).

Given that Goidelic is more archaic my own opinion is that Proto-Celtic (which was "Q-Celtic" -- people make too much of Q/P division) spread into North-West Europe during the Bronze age. Either with the Beakers or perhaps in the case that Beakers spoke a dialect of Proto-Indo-European developed among "Beaker groupings" along the Atlantic facade, gaining prestige status due to trade networks.

There were strong ties between Ireland and Britain during the Bronze age (Ballintubber style swords for example have a hotspot in Thames valley as well as Ireland), with the subsequent decline in Bronze culture after 800BC (shift of axis towards Alps with Salt/Iron culture developing out of Hallstat) and issues such as climatic change leading to population decline. It's probable thus that "Pre-Proto-Goidelic" was able to survive in it's more "archaic" state due to fact that Ireland unlike Britain was basically cut off from the continent.

From 300BC we see influence returning, what probably is happening is not "population movement" but perhaps the example of "foreign" military elite (mercenaries) something that would be repeated in Ireland at least three times within the next 1500 years (Vikings, Normans, Gallowglasses). These would have over time had become "more Irish then Irish themselves" marrying locally and adopting language/customs. These are what I believe are the Cruithin, who by the time the historic record begins 500-700 years later are fully Gaelicised. Sort of same way the Cambro-Normans were generally fully Gaelicised (witness the Burkes of Connacht using Gaelic inaguration rituals as well as inaguration sites of previous dynasties). Of course even though the Cambro-Norman's were often speaking Irish for 200-300 years they were still called "Gaill" (foreigners -- words orginially means "of Gaul").

O'Rahilly puts these "Cruithne" as been the first arrivals. I believe this is due to both reading LGÉ and also mistaken belief at the time that "Pictish" was non-IE, when in really it's a P-Celtic language closely related to Brythonic. (though with some archaic features)

If we look at the locations of groups defined as Cruithin they tend to fall along the province boundaries, for example the Soghain in South Connacht (Galway), the Loíghis on boundaries of then Leinster/Munster/Meath. The Conaille Muirthemne of Louth (Ulster/Meath boundary).

---
"To the Cruithne of Ireland belong the Dal Araidhe, the seven Laighsi of
Leinster, the seven Soghain of Éire, and every Conaill of Eirinn"
---

There were no sons of Míl, there was simply no Míl. It's a learned fiction from the 8th-9th century, the name itself is a calque from Latin into Irish. If anything the origin story back to Spain is probably due to the influence of Isidore of Seville .

The term you are looking for isn't "revisionist historian" (which actually means something different) but "synthetic historians", these are the "historians" (for want of a better word) who synthesised a standard history out of disparate fragments. The goal at the time of which was to slot Ireland neatly into a world defined by Biblical and Classical history narrative. The oldest writings on "sons of Míl" only have two sons, one who was the ancestor of the Dál Cuinn and the other ancestor of Eoghanacht. The Laighin, Ulaidh and all the other relevant dynasties weren't even included. It's only later over preceding centuries that they were "written in" as descended from different purported "sons of Míl".

The same process of course happened multiple times even within large dynastical groupings where favoured status was conferred on sub-groupings by giving them a genealogy tied in with their overlords. The Airghialla are a good example of this.

What the "falsehood" doe of course is constitute a process of "nation-building" in a post-pagan milieu. The "bi-partite" power-division is recognised by both blocks (Dál Cuinn and Eoghanacht), which are given common descent, as result both have a stake in this "learned fiction". It's only really of course form late 9th century onwards that the "nominal high-kingship" (which up to them basically meant ruler of Leath Cuinn) could be seen as an all island force. Most notably in the rise of the Dál gCais under Briain. The Dál gCais themselves had a "learned fiction" composed that wrote them into lineage of the Eoghanacht (through supposed brother of Eoghan Mór namely Cormac Cas), in reality they were probably a branch of the Deicise of Munster who moved north and conquered Clare (Thomond) from Connact after the decline of the Uí Fhiachrach Aidhne dynasty (of South Galway) in the 7th-8th centuries.

The Dál Cuinn are the interesting grouping though, I do think O'Rahilly probably got it right that they were intrusive, but not from Gaul but instead Northern Britain. Their origin tales talk about arriving at Malahide (south of Lambay). Given the fact that M222 (if we accept that M222 is associated with Dál Cuinn) has higher diversity in Northern Britain (plus what appears to be M222+/S7073- from Scotland) it's possible that their arrival into Ireland is due to the Roman conquest of the Brigantes. The specific gravesite on Lambay is actually dated to this period (1st/2nd century AD).

There's some research published in the Oxford New History of Ireland which points to Ceannas Mór (Kells) as been centerpoint of Dál Cuinn power before the conquered Tara from the Laighin (which occurred later). It's only really in the 4th century AD that they reach a point of dominance and subject the Laighin to the infamous bóruma (cattle tribute). The presence of a Ogham stone commemorating a Leinster King who died fighting the Uí Néill in the early 5th century at Slane (Co. Meath) is somewhat telling of how far north the Laighin had extended before they were defeated.

There is also some general debate that the Eoghanacht are intrusive perhaps from Gaul, there is an example of Ogham stone from Waterford bearing a Gaulish influence name though I do find it interesting the discovery of a SNP upstream of CTS4466 that was found in a CTS4466- man from South-West of Britain. (Early days on that front). The heavy presence of Z253 in Munster does point to contact with North-West France/Continent.

In general my feeling is that we are not seeing movements of people but of military elites who build dynastical groupings. The same thing happened with Normans, thence the rise of groups such as the Burke dynasties (divided into "Upper" and "Lower" blocks), the Fitzgearld's (Kildare and Desmond) and the Butlers, in case of Cambro-Normans generally within 2 generatons they were marrying Irish women, their sons and grandsons thus became progressively more Irish at each generation. The same process probably occurred with "new arrivals" in period after 300BC. They got absorbed into a proto-Goidelic speaking society, of course it would have been lot easier to swith to "proto-pre-Goidelic" from likes of "Proto-pre-Brythonic" then from Norman-French. They were closely related languages after all. The difference between them at the time probably less then current difference from Dutch to German.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
04-18-2014, 11:43 AM
I just bought "Early Christian Ireland" by T.M. Charles-Edwards (Published by Cambridge University Press), you can read chunks of it on Google Books:
http://books.google.ie/books?id=g6yq2sKLlFkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=early+christian+ireland&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_w5RU4O9E6PB7AaL0oDADA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=early%20christian%20ireland&f=false

The softback cost me €55 in Hodges Fidges in Dublin. HF is one of few decent bookshops left where the history section isn't awash with "popular histories" which tend to just sell soft-sell simplistic accounts for general public. In this case the author is "Professor of Celtic" at Oxford, book specifically covers period from 4th and 9th centuries using the arrival of the Vikings as a bookend.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Rory Cain
05-10-2014, 01:30 AM
Elsewhere the originator of this thread states:

"Actually if you really want to know what my own theory is, I believe that DF21 represents the Tuatha De Dannan who are descended from the ancient Celtic BOII tribe whom the river Boyne is named after (the Goddess Boann) and that the Sons of Mil and the BOII are one and the same. The BOII came from the Iberian peninsula originally and also Italy and spread to the Rhine Valley. This however is just a theory and I will not be forcing anyone to accept it although the DF21+ Rutelli from Italy seems to be on the outer fringe of DF21 and provides possible evidence of my theory but you cannot base a theory on one person ..."

Dubhthach
05-10-2014, 08:52 AM
Isn't Bohemia not named after the Boii, as far as I recall there's no mention of them ever in Iberia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Boians.png/1024px-Boians.png

Rory Cain
05-10-2014, 11:43 PM
Isn't Bohemia not named after the Boii, as far as I recall there's no mention of them ever in Iberia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Boians.png/1024px-Boians.png

That's my understanding also. And that they later gave their name to Bologna in Italy. I am unaware that theyexchanged pasta for paella. Beyond that, I will leave it to wikipedia as attached below.

"Boii
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Boii (disambiguation).


Map showing the approximate location of the Boii in Bohemia and in Italy. The contemporary La Tène Culture is indicated in green tones, the preceding Hallstatt Culture in yellow.
The Boii (Latin plural, singular Boius; Greek Βόϊοι) were a Gallic tribe of the later Iron Age, attested at various times in Cisalpine Gaul (northern Italy), Pannonia (Hungary and its western neighbours), in and around Bohemia (after whom the region is named in most languages), and Transalpine Gaul. In addition the archaeological evidence indicates that in the 2nd century BC Celts expanded from Bohemia through the Kłodzko Valley into Silesia, now part of Poland.[1]

They first appear in history in connection with the Gallic invasion of north Italy, 390 BC, when they made the Etruscan city of Felsina their new capital, Bononia (Bologna). After a series of wars they were decisively beaten by the Romans in a battle near Mutina (Modena) and their territory became part of the Roman province of Cisalpine Gaul. According to Strabo, writing two centuries after the events, rather than being destroyed by the Romans like their Celtic neighbours,

"the Boii were merely driven out of the regions they occupied; and after migrating to the regions round about the Ister, lived with the Taurisci, and carried on war against the Daci until they perished, tribe and all — and thus they left their country, which was a part of Illyria, to their neighbours as a pasture-ground for sheep."[2]

Around 60 BC, a group of Boians joined the Helvetians' ill-fated attempt to conquer land in western Gaul and were defeated by Julius Caesar, along with their allies, in the battle of Bibracte. Caesar settled the remnants of that group in Gorgobina, from where they sent two thousand to Vercingetorix's aid at the battle of Alesia six years later. The eastern Boians on the Danube were incorporated into the Roman Empire in 8 AD."

Rory Cain
05-12-2014, 12:15 AM
What I don't know about oneillabu's Boii/ Tuatha de Dana/ sons of Mil theory is whether this is meant to fit into the LGE framework of Parthalon, followed by Nemed, f/b the Fir Bolg, f/b the Tuatha de Dana, f/b the sons of Mil, f/b the Cruithne. Or, since O'Rahilly also figured the Tuatha de Dana and the sons of Mil to be the same group, whether oneillabu now subscribes to O'Rahilly' s Historical Model, despite his repeated attacks on O'Rahilly in the past.

alan
05-12-2014, 01:33 AM
I just saw your post there and its uncannily similar to my position. I totally agree that the Cruithin tribes and La Tene material look like groups of mercenaries or buffer clients allowed to settle by existing people. I would add to your boundary area observations that the Cruithin tribes of Antrim (DalnAraide)and Down (Ui Echach Cobha) also formed a buffer between the Errain tribes of the DalFiathach and Dalraida on the coastal areas and the lands further west beyond the Bann. When the Normans settled they simply took over the lands of the two old Errain tribes and kept the buffer peoples just to the west as friendly buffer states - essentially keeping exactly the same situation as had prevailed before. I think that explains a whole lot about the Cruithin, the La Tene material and also why Q Celtic prevailed. The Cruithin tribes were settled on the boundary areas rather than in the cores. As Mallory recently suggested, it was the probably the people who controlled the large provincial royal sites and assemblies of Iron Age Ireland whose language prevailed.

I generally think when you remove the probably 0-250AD influx of British tribes who were slightly Romanised and the group of later dynasties like the Connachta/Ui Neills etc Ireland was probably before 0 essentially a land of local indigenous peoples (probably best classed as Errain or 'Ireland people') and some La Tene elites on the fringes of their major territorial divisions (Cruithin). I think the archaeological evidence would suggest it was as simple as that around 0. It was only complicated IMO by the partly Romanised British waves into Leinster after 0. I say after 0 because most of the material in Leinster south of the Boyne is Romano-British looking rather than La Tene so I think the the identity of Leinster emerged as a result of post-0 movements and probably had not existed before.

I think the population of Ireland would all have been considered Errain before 300BC and the other terms like Cruithin, Laigin, Domnainn, Bolg etc only came about because they arrived late enough for some hazy remembrance of their external origin still survived. By Medieval times I think this had all become very confused and probably deliberately distorted for dynastic propaganda reasons.

What I do wonder about is the old province names - Ulaid, Laigin, Mumu and ol Nechmacht. I think they are very very ancient in origin and ASAIK linguists have struggled to work out their derivations. I think they may well be pre-Celtic or certainly very ancient. That the major Iron Age royal/assembly sites seem distributed in a way that reflects these provinces suggests that they still had some meaning in the last centuries BC. I suspect that at one time all of them were controlled by the Errain albeit some had Cruithin clients on their borders. That is how I see the pseudo-ethnic population strata situation before around 0. I strongly suspect that the Errain are the source of the retention of Q-Celtic and that this was due to the limited and peripheral impact of the Cruithin/La Tene groups.


O'Rahilly is patently wrong on the linguistics front. He claims that there was Brythonic language in Ireland and that "Proto-Goidelic" arrived with his "Midlandian Gaels" in the period 200-100BC from Gaul no less. This makes no sense within context of Celtic phylogeny. It's fairly obviously that Goidelic is an early branch within the overall Celtic family. It's separation date from Brythonic has been dated to period 900BC-1200BC in a number of studies. A similar date for the separation from Gaulish.

O'Rahilly used the LGÉ (Lebor Gabála Érenn -- Leabhar Gabhála na hÉireann in Modern Irish) as his basic guide for determining his mythical "invasions". The problem is there is no archaeology to back up any of this. He also ignores the fact the highest concentration of Ogham stones are in areas connected to what he called the Érainn (basically Munster). Ogham is the oldest form of Goidelic know. It's considerably scarcer in regions connected to his purported "Midlandian Gaels" namely the Dál Cuinn (or as they were know earlier the "Moccu Cuinn") which consist of the Connachta and the Uí Néill. Let he considers the Érainn as been P-Celtic.

The archaeology is showing that Ireland underwent a dark age after decline of Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-800BC) which lasted about 500 years. There is continuity during this period though with items found in it (quite fewer finds) and those found in the preceding late Bronze age stage. We only see renewed change from about 300BC onwards when contact with Northern Britain see's the arrival of La Tene style items into the North-East and gradual spell southward (with a fair bit of local copy/insular styles based on La Tene type material). The general line of La Tene style finds basically matches the pseudo-historical division into Leath Cuinn (Conn's half) and Leath Mogha (the half of Mugh Nuadhat -- aka Eoghain Mór -- aka titular founder of Eoghanacht).

Given that Goidelic is more archaic my own opinion is that Proto-Celtic (which was "Q-Celtic" -- people make too much of Q/P division) spread into North-West Europe during the Bronze age. Either with the Beakers or perhaps in the case that Beakers spoke a dialect of Proto-Indo-European developed among "Beaker groupings" along the Atlantic facade, gaining prestige status due to trade networks.

There were strong ties between Ireland and Britain during the Bronze age (Ballintubber style swords for example have a hotspot in Thames valley as well as Ireland), with the subsequent decline in Bronze culture after 800BC (shift of axis towards Alps with Salt/Iron culture developing out of Hallstat) and issues such as climatic change leading to population decline. It's probable thus that "Pre-Proto-Goidelic" was able to survive in it's more "archaic" state due to fact that Ireland unlike Britain was basically cut off from the continent.

From 300BC we see influence returning, what probably is happening is not "population movement" but perhaps the example of "foreign" military elite (mercenaries) something that would be repeated in Ireland at least three times within the next 1500 years (Vikings, Normans, Gallowglasses). These would have over time had become "more Irish then Irish themselves" marrying locally and adopting language/customs. These are what I believe are the Cruithin, who by the time the historic record begins 500-700 years later are fully Gaelicised. Sort of same way the Cambro-Normans were generally fully Gaelicised (witness the Burkes of Connacht using Gaelic inaguration rituals as well as inaguration sites of previous dynasties). Of course even though the Cambro-Norman's were often speaking Irish for 200-300 years they were still called "Gaill" (foreigners -- words orginially means "of Gaul").

O'Rahilly puts these "Cruithne" as been the first arrivals. I believe this is due to both reading LGÉ and also mistaken belief at the time that "Pictish" was non-IE, when in really it's a P-Celtic language closely related to Brythonic. (though with some archaic features)

If we look at the locations of groups defined as Cruithin they tend to fall along the province boundaries, for example the Soghain in South Connacht (Galway), the Loíghis on boundaries of then Leinster/Munster/Meath. The Conaille Muirthemne of Louth (Ulster/Meath boundary).

---
"To the Cruithne of Ireland belong the Dal Araidhe, the seven Laighsi of
Leinster, the seven Soghain of Éire, and every Conaill of Eirinn"
---

There were no sons of Míl, there was simply no Míl. It's a learned fiction from the 8th-9th century, the name itself is a calque from Latin into Irish. If anything the origin story back to Spain is probably due to the influence of Isidore of Seville .

The term you are looking for isn't "revisionist historian" (which actually means something different) but "synthetic historians", these are the "historians" (for want of a better word) who synthesised a standard history out of disparate fragments. The goal at the time of which was to slot Ireland neatly into a world defined by Biblical and Classical history narrative. The oldest writings on "sons of Míl" only have two sons, one who was the ancestor of the Dál Cuinn and the other ancestor of Eoghanacht. The Laighin, Ulaidh and all the other relevant dynasties weren't even included. It's only later over preceding centuries that they were "written in" as descended from different purported "sons of Míl".

The same process of course happened multiple times even within large dynastical groupings where favoured status was conferred on sub-groupings by giving them a genealogy tied in with their overlords. The Airghialla are a good example of this.

What the "falsehood" doe of course is constitute a process of "nation-building" in a post-pagan milieu. The "bi-partite" power-division is recognised by both blocks (Dál Cuinn and Eoghanacht), which are given common descent, as result both have a stake in this "learned fiction". It's only really of course form late 9th century onwards that the "nominal high-kingship" (which up to them basically meant ruler of Leath Cuinn) could be seen as an all island force. Most notably in the rise of the Dál gCais under Briain. The Dál gCais themselves had a "learned fiction" composed that wrote them into lineage of the Eoghanacht (through supposed brother of Eoghan Mór namely Cormac Cas), in reality they were probably a branch of the Deicise of Munster who moved north and conquered Clare (Thomond) from Connact after the decline of the Uí Fhiachrach Aidhne dynasty (of South Galway) in the 7th-8th centuries.

The Dál Cuinn are the interesting grouping though, I do think O'Rahilly probably got it right that they were intrusive, but not from Gaul but instead Northern Britain. Their origin tales talk about arriving at Malahide (south of Lambay). Given the fact that M222 (if we accept that M222 is associated with Dál Cuinn) has higher diversity in Northern Britain (plus what appears to be M222+/S7073- from Scotland) it's possible that their arrival into Ireland is due to the Roman conquest of the Brigantes. The specific gravesite on Lambay is actually dated to this period (1st/2nd century AD).

There's some research published in the Oxford New History of Ireland which points to Ceannas Mór (Kells) as been centerpoint of Dál Cuinn power before the conquered Tara from the Laighin (which occurred later). It's only really in the 4th century AD that they reach a point of dominance and subject the Laighin to the infamous bóruma (cattle tribute). The presence of a Ogham stone commemorating a Leinster King who died fighting the Uí Néill in the early 5th century at Slane (Co. Meath) is somewhat telling of how far north the Laighin had extended before they were defeated.

There is also some general debate that the Eoghanacht are intrusive perhaps from Gaul, there is an example of Ogham stone from Waterford bearing a Gaulish influence name though I do find it interesting the discovery of a SNP upstream of CTS4466 that was found in a CTS4466- man from South-West of Britain. (Early days on that front). The heavy presence of Z253 in Munster does point to contact with North-West France/Continent.

In general my feeling is that we are not seeing movements of people but of military elites who build dynastical groupings. The same thing happened with Normans, thence the rise of groups such as the Burke dynasties (divided into "Upper" and "Lower" blocks), the Fitzgearld's (Kildare and Desmond) and the Butlers, in case of Cambro-Normans generally within 2 generatons they were marrying Irish women, their sons and grandsons thus became progressively more Irish at each generation. The same process probably occurred with "new arrivals" in period after 300BC. They got absorbed into a proto-Goidelic speaking society, of course it would have been lot easier to swith to "proto-pre-Goidelic" from likes of "Proto-pre-Brythonic" then from Norman-French. They were closely related languages after all. The difference between them at the time probably less then current difference from Dutch to German.

-Paul
(DF41+)

alan
05-12-2014, 02:00 AM
I think O'Rahally was a brilliant linguist and historical geographer but he really was hamstrung by trying to interpret things through the Milesian fairytale. He did such great work but then tried to fit it into a fabricated overall model that Medieval monks made up. Most of his linguistic work still stands but his historical invasion scheme is generally considered worthless in terms of dates, orders of invasions and indeed existence of most of them. The scheme is primarily useless because he tries to present a variant of the Milesian scheme which I think he must have felt some sort of pressure to do.

I think he gets a lot of attention because he was the last book published specifically on this and all the progress since then over the last few generations is contained in academic journals which people dont tend to see unless they have access to a university library who do Celtic studies or have access to JSTOR etc. However, there are tons of articles.

One journal which tackled the issues of Ireland, Celticisation etc very well was Emania. There are a couple of issues in particular which deal with this. One thing I especially recall is an article of two bringing out the true meaning of Errain for example and its derivation from Ierne the name of the island which was an IE form which probably meant the 'lush island' or something like that. It was attested in a source that probably originated in the the 6th century BC before any La Tene material arrived and implies IE and almost certainly Celtic was spoken in Ireland in the Bronze Age. I dont keep up with all the Celtic studies type journals but I would still say from what I have read that Emania had by far the best go at looking into the Irish Iron Age and Celtic origins and the differences within Ireland.

Other articles in the same journal looked at the contrast between the areas with La Tene material mainly in Ulster and Connaught and fringes of Leinster and areas with very little like Munster and south Leinster. That latter however had a lot of indicators of Romano-British material. it was suggested that the origin of a separate Leinster pseudo-ethnicity was due to the Romano-British input and indeed the Leinster sagas and myths do reflect this memory that they were intrusive.

You can see early inputs by Koch in the journal too as well as Mallory and many other big names. There is lots about Irish royal sites although further work has been done since it was written.

David Mc
05-12-2014, 06:18 AM
Thanks, Alan, for your thoughts. Can you elaborate on the reasons for your describing the Cruithin in terms of client-kingdoms? I tend to think of client-kingdoms in terms of weaker partners, whereas you yourself describe the Cruithin in terms of an elite La Tene bearing group.

On a different but related note, James Fraser argues, rather compellingly I think, that the origin myths of the Dalriadan Scots are likely just that-- myth. Noting the similar etymology of Dalriada and "Epidii," and the linkage of both names with the area around Argyll and Kintyre, he suggests (IIRC) that the Dalraidans/Epidii actually crossed from Argyll to Antrim, establishing a sea kingdom that spanned the two domains. The linguistic questions become interesting at this point, assuming he is right. Were the Epidii originally P-Celtic speakers (as their tribal name might suggest) who embraced the Q-Celtic of their Irish neighbors? Or had they always been speakers of Q-Celtic, but Ptolemy was given the name that their P-Celtic neighbors to the south gave them?

Coming full circle, if Fraser is right, I wonder why the DalnAraide would be clearly identified as Cruithin while the Dalriada are not. That might be a weak point in his argument, or it may just be a matter of timing-- the former may have been more recent arrivals than the latter. I don't know if you or others might have any thoughts on this. At the very least, it recognizes that the history of the Irish people(s) is wonderfully complex.

alan
05-12-2014, 07:24 PM
I think people tend to think of La Tene material as superior but in fact the Irish La Tene material is largely decorative and/or horse associated. The actual weaponry is actually nothing special - just spears and swords that are actually rather unimpressive as weapons although they have beautiful scabards etc. The main reason why I (and apparently Dubhthach) think the La Tene material and the Cruithin were kind of buffer groups rather than at the centre of things is the distribution of the La Tene material and also the Cruithin tribes near border areas. Also the impact and range of the La Tene material is limited in Ireland. The limited nature of this (no classic La Tene burials, pottery etc) seems to correlate with the lack of P Celtic taking a hold in Ireland and we would expect settlers of the sort of 300-0 period to speak P Celtic.

As for the Dal Riada =Epiddi idea, its a very poorly thought out and wafer thin revisionist arguement. The revisionist arguement is based on a mind blowingly silly leap based on a Dal Riadan ancestor being called Eochaid Muinremair and linking the name Eochaid with the Brythonic P-Celtic tribal name in west Scotland - Eppidi which has a similar meaning to do with horses. However Eochaid actually appears in many Irish genealogies including the immediate Ui Neill/Connachta ancestor Eochaid Mugmedon - Eochaid just means horse lord or something like that. It may even have some link with the horse-orientated Irish kingship rituals and indeed with the concept of the father god Dagda (also known as Eochaid) marrying the land.

The Epidii=Dal Riada model is not taken seriously by Irish experts - its the sort of arguement that comes about when someone is too focused on one subject and doesnt have a wider knowledge of Irish genealogies dabbles. Its a Scottish idea and its motive is a drive in recent times to try and provide an alternative to the less palatable mainstream model that makes Scottish Gaelic and the Scots as a late arrival from Ireland.

Dal Riada in Ireland has zero Scottish type Iron Age material or monuments in it and there is no evidence of Gaelic, Dal type tribal names etc outside Ireland other than in Dal Riada. Most of the recorded Dal Riadan population names and names of individuals are very Irish and unknown among the Britons and Picts. All the historic sources and genealogies that do exist (and we cannot be picky in that period) clearly consider them Irish intruders. Indeed there is no better documented kingdom than Dal Riada with the Irish annals having a lot of Iona input, the wonderful Life of Adomnan and the Senchus Fir nAlban survey document. Noone familiar with Irish laws, linguistics, social structure, tribal nomenclature etc can fail to be struck by the way Dal Riada comes across as a carbon copy of Irish material and is very distinct from all other parts of Scotland including the rest of the west coast both to the north and south. In western Scotland from the extreme SW to Orkney all the evidence before 500AD and for some time after points to western Scotland being P-Celtic speaking just as was the eastern part of the country with the exception of Dal Riada. There is actually a ton of evidence of P Celtic in the west but not too many people are aware of it, even many who write on the subject.

With ever single bit of evidence pointing to some variant on the traditional story being correct and the revisionist model incorrect it is absurd to support the latter unless one has a patriotic motive. Like I say, its only merit is its appeal to Scots who would like the Scots/Dal Riadans to join the Picts as indigenous. A similar kind of idea existed in the 19th century which even tried to make the Picts Gaelic speaking and again its main appeal was to Scots patriotism.

The other arguement sometimes made is a lack of evidence for migration but lack of evidence for a migration is a chronic problem in archaeology in many areas so that sort of negative evidence is pretty worthless. The reality is among Christian insular Celts who did not bury with gravegoods its virtually impossible to see an invasion horizon and problematically Irish and British Celtic material is very very similar.

Dal Riada is actually my specialism area which I studied for years and produce a thesis on and have an unfinished PhD on so believe me I know this subject better than all but a handful of people on this planet.

Some variant of the traditional model seems correct. The only thing people should not do is take the records too literally - noone who knows Irish material would do that. Rather than seeing the first Dal Riadan overking to live in Scotland, Fergus Mor McErc, as some sort of primary conquering king who crossed to Scotland, his move was probably simply a transfer of the overking of Dalriada to Scotland when the culmination of a century or two of Irish settlement led to Dal Riada's Scottish lands becoming larger and more important than those at home. I could type several pages on why the revisionist theory is absurdly counter-intuitive but its such a weak model it doesnt deserve the effort. Problem is when a couple of people with locally appealing but weak revisionist ideas gets to publish in a popular book or paper or two it hard to undo the disinformation.


Thanks, Alan, for your thoughts. Can you elaborate on the reasons for your describing the Cruithin in terms of client-kingdoms? I tend to think of client-kingdoms in terms of weaker partners, whereas you yourself describe the Cruithin in terms of an elite La Tene bearing group.

On a different but related note, James Fraser argues, rather compellingly I think, that the origin myths of the Dalriadan Scots are likely just that-- myth. Noting the similar etymology of Dalriada and "Epidii," and the linkage of both names with the area around Argyll and Kintyre, he suggests (IIRC) that the Dalraidans/Epidii actually crossed from Argyll to Antrim, establishing a sea kingdom that spanned the two domains. The linguistic questions become interesting at this point, assuming he is right. Were the Epidii originally P-Celtic speakers (as their tribal name might suggest) who embraced the Q-Celtic of their Irish neighbors? Or had they always been speakers of Q-Celtic, but Ptolemy was given the name that their P-Celtic neighbors to the south gave them?

Coming full circle, if Fraser is right, I wonder why the DalnAraide would be clearly identified as Cruithin while the Dalriada are not. That might be a weak point in his argument, or it may just be a matter of timing-- the former may have been more recent arrivals than the latter. I don't know if you or others might have any thoughts on this. At the very least, it recognizes that the history of the Irish people(s) is wonderfully complex.

alan
05-12-2014, 07:42 PM
I wonder why the DalnAraide would be clearly identified as Cruithin while the Dalriada are not. That might be a weak point in his argument, or it may just be a matter of timing-- the former may have been more recent arrivals than the latter. I don't know if you or others might have any thoughts on this. At the very least, it recognizes that the history of the Irish people(s) is wonderfully complex.

That is another reason why it makes no sense. Like I said there are so many arguements against the revisionist idea I struggle to remember them all and I could type about 10000 words on why its hugely counterintuitive to go for the revisionist theory against accepting the broad truth of the traditional model.

The Irish records are very consistent in describing the DalnAraide and their subgroups the Elne, Latharna etc being Cruithin and Dal Riada is never considered or described as Cruithin. When you consider that the DalnAraide and its subgroups completely surrounded Dal Riada except where the sea was the latter's border then you can see that the distinction is not a casual one. Its very very clear and consistent in all sources.

The Dal Riada were considered Errain as were the other north-eastern coastal group the Dal Fiathach. There is a strong although not absolute trend for the Errain territories to occupy the coastal areas of north-eastern Ireland which are also the areas where much of the prehistoric archaeology is located. There is also a strong pattern in Irish records of the Erainn peoples as being renowned for maritime power both in NE and SW Ireland. The Cruithin tend to in contrast occupy the heavy clay soil inland border lands that were not popular in prehistoric times for settlement.

Now, IMO Erainn simply meant 'native people of Ireland' which in turn meant everyone who in Ireland who were not descended from later waves like the Cruithin, Laigin, Connachta, Eoganachta etc. However, I dont think it was any more specific than that and in reality it probably originally had no further specific lineage meaning. The attempt in the genealogies to link the Erainn together like they were a sept from one common ancestor, Conaire Mor, has got to be a retrospective invention to link all the tribes considered Erainn together. No modern scholar actually believes there is anything reality to that genealogy other than it being a symbolic way of indicating they were considered Erainn.

David Mc
05-12-2014, 09:33 PM
Thanks, Alan. That is very helpful. I'll need to revisit Fraser when I have the chance. I'm not sure I would see him as having a narrow reading of Scottish history, and he isn't a lightweight in his field, so I want to engage with what he's saying, even if I may not ultimately agree with his conclusions. I will note that his link between the Epidii and the Dalriadans is based on the roots of Epidii and Riata/Reti, (not Eochaid) both of which seem to speak of horses or horsemen. Also, he suggests that the Dal Riada seem to have a different (more centralized) form of Either way, I won't reproduce everything he's written here. If anyone is interested, they can read more in his book, From Caledonia to Pictland: Scotland to 795.

I've also found a short description of the central argument here: The Horsemen (https://hefenfelth.wordpress.com/2009/03/16/the-horsemen/)

The money-quote, I suppose is this:

“The Cruithni may have been British incomers from various parts of the west of outer Brigantia, Argyll, and the Hebrides. Later Gaelic ethnographers distinguished Dal Riata from the Cruithni in racial terms. If we set such pseudo-history aside, we are confronted by two neighboring Early Historic peoples, one based largely in Britain with a small presence in Antrim, and the other based in Ireland but known as ‘Britons’. Together they form a link between Argyll and north-east Ireland that scholars require to explain Gaelic in Argyll. Contrary to the conventional model and early medieval origin mythology, however, the link probably arose from inclusions into Ireland from Britain, and not the other way around. There is nothing at all unlikly about the proposition that the inhabitants of Argyll ‘went Gaelic’ along with the Cruithni in Ireland, even if precisely how, and moreover when, such a process could have taken place remains unclear.” (Fraser, p. 148-149)

Again, Fraser may be wrong, but I would like to think we can engage with what he says rather than automatically cast him in the colours of Ian Adamson and other revisionist writers...

alan
05-13-2014, 11:21 AM
I am convinced the Cruithin are indeed groups who entered Ireland in the Iron Age. However, the Dal Riada are clearly not considered Cruithin.

Bede gives a variation on the normal legend and says the Irish arrived in Argyll under Reuda, hence Dal Reudini or something like that. Again some revisionists conveniently ignore the bit where he says they came from Ireland and try to make something of the fact this differs from the Fergus Mor story. His reference to Reuda in all probability simply shows he knew from his Irish contacts the story of Cairbre Riada son of Conaire Mor (a king who live around the 1st century BC/AD according to the myths). Caibre Riada in Irish sources is seen as the founder of Dal Riada as a whole i.e. he founded Irish Dalriada. So, in all probability what Bede had heard was the legend of the founding of Dal Riada but Cairbre Riada and the latter is the Reuda of Bede. In all probability the story was known to Bede through Irish monasteries in Scotland and their ongoing contacts with NE England. There is no contradiction in that Cairpre Riada is seen as the originator of Dal Riada in Ireland while Fergus Mor is simply seen as the first overking of Dal Riada to move to Scotland. Bede was probably slightly confused and thought the story of the founding of Dal Riada under Cairpre Riada or Reuda was the same thing as the settling of Scotland.

The story that he was a son of Conaire Mor who migrated from Munster to NE Ireland is of course totally unbelievable and a transparent attempt to explain the puzzling aspect that the Erainn were strong in the NE and SW corners of Ireland while disguising the probable truth that the whole island had been ruled by the Errain at one time and they were just the survivors.
Although I believe Bede was repeating and slightly misunderstanding the Cairpre Riada story when he talks about Reuda, that doesnt mean I think the Cairpre Riada story is itself remotely reliable. Its clearly a fabrication with a geographically ludicrous movement from SW to NE within Ireland and a load of brothers all called Cairpre whose second names all are those of tribes just like Riada's is - basically individual symbolically represented tribes as eponymous ancestors. So its basically nonsense and an attempt to explain the distribution of the rump of the ancient Erainn that had clung on in the opposite corners of Ireland.

If one accepts that the Irish genealogies and tribal origin sotries are overwhelmingly fabricated before 400AD then this just leaves Ptolemy's map and archaeology. Ptolemy's map is a problem in that it shows a tribe the Robogdii. I think there is a good chance that O'Rahilly's speculation that this is badly distorted and comes from Redodii or something like that which would linguistically tie it to Riada could be right but its not possible to prove this. Archaeologically, pre-500AD the Irish DalRiada area has very little La Tene material in sharp contrast to its DalnAraide neighbouring areas in the same county. What it does on the other hand is have several hoards of Roman material from Britain I think mainly from the 2nd and 4th/early 5th century AD. Indeed other than Leinster, the NE coastal area in and around Dal Riada is probably the next hotspot for such material in Ireland. What it tells us is contact or raiding with Roman Britain in some way - probably with areas rather to the south of Argyll. I dont hink anyone knows what these finds in NE Ireland mean.


Thanks, Alan. That is very helpful. I'll need to revisit Fraser when I have the chance. I'm not sure I would see him as having a narrow reading of Scottish history, and he isn't a lightweight in his field, so I want to engage with what he's saying, even if I may not ultimately agree with his conclusions. I will note that his link between the Epidii and the Dalriadans is based on the roots of Epidii and Riata/Reti, (not Eochaid) both of which seem to speak of horses or horsemen. Also, he suggests that the Dal Riada seem to have a different (more centralized) form of Either way, I won't reproduce everything he's written here. If anyone is interested, they can read more in his book, From Caledonia to Pictland: Scotland to 795.

I've also found a short description of the central argument here: The Horsemen (https://hefenfelth.wordpress.com/2009/03/16/the-horsemen/)

The money-quote, I suppose is this:

“The Cruithni may have been British incomers from various parts of the west of outer Brigantia, Argyll, and the Hebrides. Later Gaelic ethnographers distinguished Dal Riata from the Cruithni in racial terms. If we set such pseudo-history aside, we are confronted by two neighboring Early Historic peoples, one based largely in Britain with a small presence in Antrim, and the other based in Ireland but known as ‘Britons’. Together they form a link between Argyll and north-east Ireland that scholars require to explain Gaelic in Argyll. Contrary to the conventional model and early medieval origin mythology, however, the link probably arose from inclusions into Ireland from Britain, and not the other way around. There is nothing at all unlikly about the proposition that the inhabitants of Argyll ‘went Gaelic’ along with the Cruithni in Ireland, even if precisely how, and moreover when, such a process could have taken place remains unclear.” (Fraser, p. 148-149)

Again, Fraser may be wrong, but I would like to think we can engage with what he says rather than automatically cast him in the colours of Ian Adamson and other revisionist writers...

rossa
05-13-2014, 02:28 PM
Is there a link between the groups in North West Ireland and Southern Scotland who were both called Venecnii?

Dubhthach
05-13-2014, 03:45 PM
Venicones in Scotland, whereas Ptolemy had the vennicnii in Donegal.

What's interesting here is that "Veni" probably shares the root word for Irish Féni. Which is the oldest name given to the Irish by themselves (before "Gael" was borrowed from welsh). The traditions/laws of the Irish been Fenechas.

In Irish proto-Celtic W (written often as a V) underwent mutation to f. So for example Vino -> Fíon (Wine).

The second part of name Venicones is often regarded to do with Hounds. In Irish cú = hound, genitive case = con
eg. "Bord na gCon" == "(Grey)hound board"

rossa
05-13-2014, 06:04 PM
I thought I saw a map with Venecnii mentioned in Scotland, it may have been in the context of someones idea for he spread of M222. I remember an idea that the name was linked to the Fianna doing the rounds at one time (possibly tying into the Feni side of things).
What I find interesting about the name is that the highest mountain in Donegal is Carnaween, which is South Donegal. I remember someone into local history saying the root of the ween element is a bit of a mystery. One idea is that it comes from the gaelic for bird, another is that it may be linked to Finn McCool (there is some legends about him knocking around there). I wonder if there is a link to venecnii.

Rory Cain
05-13-2014, 11:10 PM
Venicones in Scotland, whereas Ptolemy had the vennicnii in Donegal.

What's interesting here is that "Veni" probably shares the root word for Irish Féni. Which is the oldest name given to the Irish by themselves (before "Gael" was borrowed from welsh). The traditions/laws of the Irish been Fenechas.

In Irish proto-Celtic W (written often as a V) underwent mutation to f. So for example Vino -> Fíon (Wine).

The second part of name Venicones is often regarded to do with Hounds. In Irish cú = hound, genitive case = con
eg. "Bord na gCon" == "(Grey)hound board"

According to John Koch and several other historians, the Latin name Venedotia from whence the Welsh Gwynned comes is ultimately from the Irish word Feni.

From wikipedia's entry on Gwynedd: "The name Gwynedd is believed to be an early borrowing from Irish (reflective of Irish settlement in the area in antiquity), either cognate with the Old Irish ethnic name Féni, "Irish People", from Proto-Irish *Weidh-n- "Forest People"/"Wild People" (from Proto-Indo-European *weydh- "wood, wilderness"), or (alternately) Old Irish fían "war band", from Proto-Irish *wēnā (from Proto-Indo-European *weyH1- "chase, pursue, suppress").[8][9][10][11]

Rory Cain
05-19-2014, 12:31 AM
I just saw your post there and its uncannily similar to my position. I totally agree that the Cruithin tribes and La Tene material look like groups of mercenaries or buffer clients allowed to settle by existing people. I would add to your boundary area observations that the Cruithin tribes of Antrim (DalnAraide)and Down (Ui Echach Cobha) also formed a buffer between the Errain tribes of the DalFiathach and Dalraida on the coastal areas and the lands further west beyond the Bann. When the Normans settled they simply took over the lands of the two old Errain tribes and kept the buffer peoples just to the west as friendly buffer states - essentially keeping exactly the same situation as had prevailed before. I think that explains a whole lot about the Cruithin, the La Tene material and also why Q Celtic prevailed. The Cruithin tribes were settled on the boundary areas rather than in the cores. As Mallory recently suggested, it was the probably the people who controlled the large provincial royal sites and assemblies of Iron Age Ireland whose language prevailed.

I generally think when you remove the probably 0-250AD influx of British tribes who were slightly Romanised and the group of later dynasties like the Connachta/Ui Neills etc Ireland was probably before 0 essentially a land of local indigenous peoples (probably best classed as Errain or 'Ireland people') and some La Tene elites on the fringes of their major territorial divisions (Cruithin). I think the archaeological evidence would suggest it was as simple as that around 0. It was only complicated IMO by the partly Romanised British waves into Leinster after 0. I say after 0 because most of the material in Leinster south of the Boyne is Romano-British looking rather than La Tene so I think the the identity of Leinster emerged as a result of post-0 movements and probably had not existed before.

I think the population of Ireland would all have been considered Errain before 300BC and the other terms like Cruithin, Laigin, Domnainn, Bolg etc only came about because they arrived late enough for some hazy remembrance of their external origin still survived. By Medieval times I think this had all become very confused and probably deliberately distorted for dynastic propaganda reasons.

What I do wonder about is the old province names - Ulaid, Laigin, Mumu and ol Nechmacht. I think they are very very ancient in origin and ASAIK linguists have struggled to work out their derivations. I think they may well be pre-Celtic or certainly very ancient. That the major Iron Age royal/assembly sites seem distributed in a way that reflects these provinces suggests that they still had some meaning in the last centuries BC. I suspect that at one time all of them were controlled by the Errain albeit some had Cruithin clients on their borders. That is how I see the pseudo-ethnic population strata situation before around 0. I strongly suspect that the Errain are the source of the retention of Q-Celtic and that this was due to the limited and peripheral impact of the Cruithin/La Tene groups.

What I deduce from Alan (and I accept that he deduces something slightly different, is that we can identify the followig waves of invaders or settlers:
Erainn
Cruithne
Gauls
Belgae

oneillabu's original intent in starting this thread was to identify R-L21 royal lines. That is going to be a challenge as it remains conjectural as to what DNA was connected with what wave of settlers. My thoughts are that R-L21 royal lines would be amongst the later two waves. However what do we really know about attaching a DNA tag to any of them:

Erainn- some studies have tried, and found for instance that the Corcu Loigdhe septs include O'Driscoll who appears a largely haplogroup I sept, but also includes O'Coffey, a largely Irish Type 2 sept, while O'Leary, Hennessy, Flynn & McNally have been inclclusive. The latter names have, like so many Irish surnames, more than one source so that makes the job harder.

Cruithne: a commercial DNA company markets a "Pictish DNA" product, but with what scientific authority I know not. I suspect that what they call "Pictish DNA" is likely to be the Scots Modal Haplotype. Assuming that Scot automatcally equals Pict seems to be a leap of faith- perhaps some sort of Nationalist faith?

Gauls & Belgae: We should be on firmer ground here, given material left by Ptolomey and by the Romans. Archeologists believe they can identify Gallo-British versus Belgic settlements, and have produced maps that show presence or absence of La Tene artifacts or other indicators. We don't have the necessary genetic maps yet to match against the archeological record. But some picture should be starting to emerge, either on a localbasis or an overall type picture.

So if R-L21 is the focus of this thread, perhaps the originator of this thread can state where he sees it fitting into the historical model above.

Heber
05-19-2014, 11:33 AM
Here are a collection of Royal Lines from Bart Jaskos work on Medieval Kingship.
I would imagine that a pragmatic way of tackling this issue is to identify the most likely terminal SNPs an mapping them to the Phylogenetic Tree.
Many of them should be in the L21 tree.
We still have a long way to go to achieve this but with at least it gives us some data to work with.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-genealogies/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df21/

Rory Cain
05-20-2014, 12:24 AM
Here are a collection of Royal Lines from Bart Jaskos work on Medieval Kingship.
I would imagine that a pragmatic way of tackling this issue is to identify the most likely terminal SNPs an mapping them to the Phylogenetic Tree.
Many of them should be in the L21 tree.
We still have a long way to go to achieve this but with at least it gives us some data to work with.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-genealogies/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df21/

We do indeed have a long way to go. I wonder if the originator of this thread hasn't bitten off more than he can chew. From discussions with Alan, I take it that there have been four waves of settlers:

THE ÉRAINN
THE CRUITHNE
THE GAULS
THE BELGAE

Looking at the tribes that electricscotland makes to be Erainn, few have had their DNA established with any certainty. However they appear to include:
O Driscoll, chief of Corcu Luighde, haplogroup I-PF4135
O'Shea, part of the Corcu Duibhne, R-L513
MacCurtin, part of the Corcu Modhruadh, J-M172
Breasal, Phelan, Whelan of the Deisi Mumha, R-L144/L195/CTS1751
O'Brien of Dal gCais, R-L226
O Tracy of Ui Bairrche Tire, R-DF21

A number of confounding factors exist of course.
1. The list on electricscotland's website appears ambitious. Other evidence suggests that the Dal gCais, Deisi, Ui Bairrche and others of that list do not belong there, but under other banners.
2. Many Irish surnames have multiple origins and these are harder to attribute a DNA type to than those surnames with a single origin.

Notwithstanding all that, and deleting three of those above who I suspect are nor Erainn, that leaves three accepted Erainn septs with I-PF4135, R-L513 and J-M172. That may well be so, as the group name Erainn may well refer to all the aboriginal inhabitants of Ireland, whatever their origin or ancestor. Maybe I should have started with the Cruithne? Or Gauls? Or Belgae?

David Mc
05-20-2014, 02:46 AM
Rory,

Where do you see DF49 fitting in here? I'm assuming either Gauls or Belgae, yet DF49* (or at least the few samples we have of it) seem to be sprinkled throughout Scotland and England.

Rory Cain
05-21-2014, 01:04 AM
Rory,

Where do you see DF49 fitting in here? I'm assuming either Gauls or Belgae, yet DF49* (or at least the few samples we have of it) seem to be sprinkled throughout Scotland and England.

David, I have to confess that I am not the best person to ask. It's true that abut one in three O Cathains are DF49 > DF23 > M222 but that means that the other 2/3rds of my membership are from the smaller O Cathains septs that get ignored if it weren't for the Cain DNA Project. So I've kinda let the M222 take the running on this, if they so choose, just as James Kane now runs the small South Irish Type sub-group for me.

Personal view? I've read some tantalising posts speculating about an origin in France for DF49, and rumours of a M222 hot-spot on the western slopes of the Alps in France. Whether or not that is so, I expect that DF49 (or it's ancestor) was part of the movement of Gauls and Belgae from the Continent to the Isles. I've just had a series of conversations with Alan who was initially negative about the Belgae reaching Ireland but who now uses one of their names, i.e. Laigin, to cover the Gauls and Belgae together. The difference between them as I read Alan and others is cultural and not racial.

I would expect that as each new wave of arrivals landed in southeast Britain or in southeast Ireland, that they bumped the previous wave further north and west. DF49 or its ancestor) seems to have kept up its northern direction of movement and rather than entering Ireland via Leinster did so by the alternative route via Scotland, perhaps not to Antrim as one might expect though. Perhaps they took the longer route around to Connaught.

Well, I hope that now I've jumped in and given others plenty to find fault with, that you get some further responses, some from folks who have focussed on DF49 farmore than I have.

Rory.
k.

David Mc
05-21-2014, 05:01 PM
Thanks for that, Rory. I suppose part of the difficulty lies in the fact that the data for DF49* is still quite limited. It's fascinating seeing different tribal groupings being linked, however tentatively, to specific SNP's. I suspect we will continue to find complexity within each of those groups, but it's still interesting to consider how DNA my be able to shed light on the people movements in and around Ireland.

Rory Cain
05-22-2014, 12:48 AM
David, my pleasure, and I still hope that someone more DF49-savvy than I responds to your post. What you said about the exciting possibility of using DNA to shed light on people movements echoes Norman Mongan's words about being able to track a Roman-era tribe, the Menapii as they were to Caesar or the Manapi as they appear in irish history. Mongan, who bears a Manapi surname, did just that in his book Manapia Quest. I look forward to the day when we can do the same using DNA. In fact I wonder if Norman Mongan were to revisit the topic in the light of DNA discoveries, whether he might not end up comparing the movement of Z253 with the Manapi folk movements that he traces.

If that's the sort of thing that you would like to recreate then you might enjoy Norman Mongan's Manapia Quest.

Jon
05-23-2014, 11:52 AM
Looking at the tribes that electricscotland makes to be Erainn, few have had their DNA established with any certainty. However they appear to include:
O Driscoll, chief of Corcu Luighde, haplogroup I-PF4135
O'Shea, part of the Corcu Duibhne, R-L513
MacCurtin, part of the Corcu Modhruadh, J-M172
Breasal, Phelan, Whelan of the Deisi Mumha, R-L144/L195/CTS1751
O'Brien of Dal gCais, R-L226
O Tracy of Ui Bairrche Tire, R-DF21

A number of confounding factors exist of course.
1. The list on electricscotland's website appears ambitious. Other evidence suggests that the Dal gCais, Deisi, Ui Bairrche and others of that list do not belong there, but under other banners.
2. Many Irish surnames have multiple origins and these are harder to attribute a DNA type to than those surnames with a single origin.

Notwithstanding all that, and deleting three of those above who I suspect are nor Erainn, that leaves three accepted Erainn septs with I-PF4135, R-L513 and J-M172. That may well be so, as the group name Erainn may well refer to all the aboriginal inhabitants of Ireland, whatever their origin or ancestor. Maybe I should have started with the Cruithne? Or Gauls? Or Belgae?[/QUOTE]

Rory, I'm involved in the L513 group. It's still a bit of a mystery, although getting clearer with Chromo2 etc. It seems like the two big irish clusters are Maguire in Fermanagh/Monaghan, and the O'Shea group you mention. Could any of you guys comment on this? Might there be a possible link historically between these two, or is the L513 connection more likely just random? I'v long thought that the huge presence of L513 in SW Scotland must at least partly be down to Dalriada, or pre-Dalriada movement.

Rory Cain
05-24-2014, 03:11 AM
Looking at the tribes that electricscotland makes to be Erainn, few have had their DNA established with any certainty. However they appear to include:
O Driscoll, chief of Corcu Luighde, haplogroup I-PF4135
O'Shea, part of the Corcu Duibhne, R-L513
MacCurtin, part of the Corcu Modhruadh, J-M172
Breasal, Phelan, Whelan of the Deisi Mumha, R-L144/L195/CTS1751
O'Brien of Dal gCais, R-L226
O Tracy of Ui Bairrche Tire, R-DF21

A number of confounding factors exist of course.
1. The list on electricscotland's website appears ambitious. Other evidence suggests that the Dal gCais, Deisi, Ui Bairrche and others of that list do not belong there, but under other banners.
2. Many Irish surnames have multiple origins and these are harder to attribute a DNA type to than those surnames with a single origin.

Notwithstanding all that, and deleting three of those above who I suspect are nor Erainn, that leaves three accepted Erainn septs with I-PF4135, R-L513 and J-M172. That may well be so, as the group name Erainn may well refer to all the aboriginal inhabitants of Ireland, whatever their origin or ancestor. Maybe I should have started with the Cruithne? Or Gauls? Or Belgae?

Rory, I'm involved in the L513 group. It's still a bit of a mystery, although getting clearer with Chromo2 etc. It seems like the two big irish clusters are Maguire in Fermanagh/Monaghan, and the O'Shea group you mention. Could any of you guys comment on this? Might there be a possible link historically between these two, or is the L513 connection more likely just random? I'v long thought that the huge presence of L513 in SW Scotland must at least partly be down to Dalriada, or pre-Dalriada movement.[/QUOTE]

Jon

I am happy to bow out of this and let someone more expert in L513 answer, although they haven't yet. To answer the genetic question first, is the sharing of L513 just random? No, it's not random. If we were talking STR markers a shared marker might well be what you call "random" or what Darwin called "convergent evolution", with no shared ancestry. But as far as we know, the is only L513. Some other markers like L149 have decimals after them to indicate that they across across unrelated groups. But not L513. So an L513 in Kerry is related somewhere back to an L513 in Fermanagh and to an L513 in Scotland. Genetics tells us that much. The shortfall is the historical record, where the folk movements of L513 have not been recorded, and the wide scale falsification of genealogies whereby L513 septs have been attached to the ruling dynasties of the regions where they ended up.

The Dal Riata were but one small branch of the Erainn, and the example in my post above indicates that we are far from attributing a single or even specific multiple DNA types to the Erainn. The DalRiata are a particular problem as they largely departed for Scotland where pedigrees may be even less reliable than in Ireland. It is my understanding the the O Quinns of northern Ireland are Dal Riata but this common Irish name has multiple sources of origin, a nightmare for the geneticist. As far as I know, there is no reason for attributing L513 to the Dal Riata and it may well represent other non-Dal Riata immigration. But possibly still Erainn, I suspect. however that's a personal feeling and I have little concrete evidence for it.

There are L513 Kanes, BTW, so I have taken some interest in this. The one L513 Kane to do Big Y remains a singleton as far as shared SNPs with other L513. I believe his sept to have been the O Cahane Coarbs of Senan on Iniscatha in the Shannon estuary. Now found most often in Co Clare, this sept may well have originated from Kerry like the O'Sheas. That would point towards a Corcu Duibhne origin. But Irish mist still shrouds much of what we would need to see in order tone more conclusive. I probably have to hand over to someone else more L513-savvy at this point.

Jon
05-24-2014, 08:41 AM
Many thanks Rory. I'm still trying to get to grips with the way it all works, and that helped a lot. So at least in principle, the L513 originator may have been amongst the groups known now as Erainn (I accept that this people will have included different haplogroups amongst them, of course), with related subgroups then fanning out throughout Ireland, and also over to Scotland/England? I don't know enough about the ancient history of Ireland, but I have consulted some excellent books on early Scottish history, among them 'Somerled and the Emergence of Gaelic Scotland' by John Marsden, 'The Problem of the Picts', Wainwright et. al., and 'A History of the Scottish People', T.C. Smout; all of these of course make reference to Dalriada, but emphasize the near certainty that migration from Ireland was happening in the centuries before. One piece of evidence is the location and age of Ogham stones up the west coast of Britain. I too would love to hear from any other L513 folks; to my eye, the common factor in L513 is Ireland, as it seems like most of the groupings have at least one surname cluster which is obviously Irish. I was interested in the possible Cruithne link, as these are sometimes referred to as 'Picts', so could represent another Ireland/Scotland link; however I know there is much debate on that one.

oneillabu
05-24-2014, 09:34 PM
[QUOTE=Rory Cain;40454]We do indeed have a long way to go. I wonder if the originator of this thread hasn't bitten off more than he can chew.

Looking at the tribes that electricscotland makes to be Erainn, few have had their DNA established with any certainty. However they appear to include:
O Driscoll, chief of Corcu Luighde, haplogroup I-PF4135
O'Shea, part of the Corcu Duibhne, R-L513
MacCurtin, part of the Corcu Modhruadh, J-M172
Breasal, Phelan, Whelan of the Deisi Mumha, R-L144/L195/CTS1751
O'Brien of Dal gCais, R-L226
O Tracy of Ui Bairrche Tire, R-DF21


I really am sick to death of your behaviour, you do not have the right to invent a ridiculous origin for DF21 with no research provided and not one shred of evidence to support your Brigantes / Ui Bairrche nonsense. You have actually labelled S5456 people who have surnames such as McMahon, Folan (Aran Islands), Byrne, Keane, Corcoran, Feeney, Gaffney, Conway, Alexander, Rowan and King as Brigantes / Ui Bairrche in the DF21 section of the O’Keane project. It obviously does not matter to you that none of these names support your theory.

Not content at that, you have also included in the cluster McMartin from the 314.2 group as Brigantes / Ui Bairrche labelling the entire cluster of 314.2 as Ui Bairrche and also carefully selected a person from the Clan Colla group to also label that group as also Ui Bairrche. Of course you did not forget the little Scots cluster so you also included members from that group from the Isle of Man and Donegal, you also did not forget the new S5488 group (myself included) and the SO CALLED Ely O’Carrolls Finally you did not forget the L1403 people either therefore labelling the Seven Septs of Laois as Ui Bairrche just to make sure you have them all covered.

You did not however include yourself in amongst these descendents of the inferior slaves as you recently labelled all DF21 people (yourself excluded) rather you created an O’Cathain section for yourself and your matches. So now being an admin in the DF21 project (no doubt you volunteered) I bet you are itching to rename all the various groups to something more suitable to your own agend and destroying David Reynolds hard work therefore preventing real researchers from actually discovering the origins of DF21.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cain-Caine/default.aspx?section=yresults

RoudellmcGraceville
07-05-2014, 03:29 AM
Elsewhere the originator of this thread states:

"Actually if you really want to know what my own theory is, I believe that DF21 represents the Tuatha De Dannan who are descended from the ancient Celtic BOII tribe whom the river Boyne is named after (the Goddess Boann) and that the Sons of Mil and the BOII are one and the same. The BOII came from the Iberian peninsula originally and also Italy and spread to the Rhine Valley. This however is just a theory and I will not be forcing anyone to accept it although the DF21+ Rutelli from Italy seems to be on the outer fringe of DF21 and provides possible evidence of my theory but you cannot base a theory on one person ..."





Dear Sir,


I thank you for your time;

I had the possibility to read the interesting subject, and where it is also mentioned about my family surname, and I appreciate the interest in matter;

I wish to mention the truth about my Rutelli patrilineage, once - Rudelli - ;

after the paternal line [of british celtic origin (british from the old -pretani- as we know)] stationed at some time within the ancient British Isles [my Y DNA Haplogroup is R1b / DF21 with related S971+ (Z3017 equivalent) and S959+ (Z3006 eq.) direct Subgroups, with these two Subgroups recently found exclusively in the DNA of R-DF21 Carriers with their patrilineage stationed at the time in Ireland], the same paternal line moved at some point in time in the continental french territory (west - southwest region), which surname was originally Rudel/Rudellus/Rudelli (from the old celtic languages/dialects, or possibly from the old local french occitan dialect, then partially latinized by the scribes of the time who would document among everything also the full names as we know;
later (12th - 13th century), the line moved again and this time to the old Mariner Republic of Genua in north - west Italy, most likely from/through the french Provence territory and with the same surname Rudellus/Rudelli, to then slightly change to Rutelli (15th century);

meanwhile, several lines spread within the same italic/italian territory and some of these continued as well in other nations with other slight surname variants; a few lines moved back again into the same french territory even during more recent times, where they originally came from;


thanks again and best regards to You and to All the Anthrogenica Members;


Rutelli

oneillabu
07-05-2014, 08:17 PM
Dear Sir,


I thank you for your time;

I had the possibility to read the interesting subject, and where it is also mentioned about my family surname, and I appreciate the interest in matter;

I wish to mention the truth about my Rutelli patrilineage, once - Rudelli - ;

after the paternal line [of british celtic origin (british from the old -pretani- as we know)] stationed at some time within the ancient British Isles [my Y DNA Haplogroup is R1b / DF21 with related S971+ (Z3017 equivalent) and S959+ (Z3006 eq.) direct Subgroups, with these two Subgroups recently found exclusively in the DNA of R-DF21 Carriers with their patrilineage stationed at the time in Ireland], the same paternal line moved at some point in time in the continental french territory (west - southwest region), which surname was originally Rudel/Rudellus/Rudelli (from the old celtic languages/dialects, or possibly from the old local french occitan dialect, then partially latinized by the scribes of the time who would document among everything also the full names as we know;
later (12th - 13th century), the line moved again and this time to the old Mariner Republic of Genua in north - west Italy, most likely from/through the french Provence territory and with the same surname Rudellus/Rudelli, to then slightly change to Rutelli (15th century);

meanwhile, several lines spread within the same italic/italian territory and some of these continued as well in other nations with other slight surname variants; a few lines moved back again into the same french territory even during more recent times, where they originally came from;


thanks again and best regards to You and to All the Anthrogenica Members;


Rutelli

Hi, thanks for the interesting comments however there are a number of flaws in your given scenario, firstly to suggest that the S971 clan Colla group are descended from Roman conscripts from Britain stationed in Ireland is a non-runner because there were no Roman's in Ireland. Also there is a strong Irish element to all branches of DF21 with very large genetic distances between them so an Irish origin from around 1000 BC is the most likely scenario plus the fact that there are clusters that can be linked to given pedigrees of ancient Irish origin which further suppports an early Irish origin.

There were Welsh DF21 clusters however there were Irish settlements in South Wales during the time of the Roman occupation so this could account for this and also possibly for your own Rutelli ancestor. If your ancestor is of Irish Celtic origin then this rules out any connection between the Boii tribe of Italy and an early Irish migration as I previously suggested.

Regards

oneillabu
08-07-2014, 07:45 PM
[QUOTE=oneillabu;40895][QUOTE=Rory Cain;40454]

Looking at the Y-DNA Haplotree in MYFTDNA you would think that DF21 consists of the Z248 tree only, here are all the SNP’s listed

Z248
DF25
DF5
CTS3655
627
625
626
CTS1970
CTS6253

Even the smallest branches of Z248 are included while everyone else is omitted, rather strangely PF4252 has been added even though there has been no PF4252+ result to date and also L130 has been added as well. L130 has recently tested S5488 > Z16294+ the same as Ely Carroll however there is an average distance of 35 between the L130 people and Ely Carroll which means that this is a very old connection. The inclusion of L130 in the tree and the omission of its upstream SNP’s makes you wonder just what is going on with information supplied to FTDNA and what personal agendas are at work here.

Rory Cain
08-17-2014, 03:24 AM
Dear Sir,


I thank you for your time;

I had the possibility to read the interesting subject, and where it is also mentioned about my family surname, and I appreciate the interest in matter;

I wish to mention the truth about my Rutelli patrilineage, once - Rudelli - ;

after the paternal line [of british celtic origin (british from the old -pretani- as we know)] stationed at some time within the ancient British Isles [my Y DNA Haplogroup is R1b / DF21 with related S971+ (Z3017 equivalent) and S959+ (Z3006 eq.) direct Subgroups, with these two Subgroups recently found exclusively in the DNA of R-DF21 Carriers with their patrilineage stationed at the time in Ireland], the same paternal line moved at some point in time in the continental french territory (west - southwest region), which surname was originally Rudel/Rudellus/Rudelli (from the old celtic languages/dialects, or possibly from the old local french occitan dialect, then partially latinized by the scribes of the time who would document among everything also the full names as we know;
later (12th - 13th century), the line moved again and this time to the old Mariner Republic of Genua in north - west Italy, most likely from/through the french Provence territory and with the same surname Rudellus/Rudelli, to then slightly change to Rutelli (15th century);

meanwhile, several lines spread within the same italic/italian territory and some of these continued as well in other nations with other slight surname variants; a few lines moved back again into the same french territory even during more recent times, where they originally came from;


thanks again and best regards to You and to All the Anthrogenica Members;


Rutelli

It looks like Seamas answered you with a blinkered approach based on his Boii theory which he has aggressively and unsuccessfully tried to push onto the rest of Anthrogenica's subscribers.

You may have noted that your results group with Harbour, who has unsubstantiated Welsh origins. This might be of more value to you.

Rory

oneillabu
08-17-2014, 01:16 PM
It looks like Seamas answered you with a blinkered approach based on his Boii theory which he has aggressively and unsuccessfully tried to push onto the rest of Anthrogenica's subscribers.

You may have noted that your results group with Harbour, who has unsubstantiated Welsh origins. This might be of more value to you.

Rory

Once again you show yourself up because here is the one an only time I mentioned the BOII tribe in this forum

"Actually if you really want to know what my own theory is, I believe that DF21 represents the Tuatha De Dannan who are descended from the ancient Celtic BOII tribe whom the river Boyne is named after (the Goddess Boann) and that the Sons of Mil and the BOII are one and the same. The BOII came from the Iberian peninsula originally and also Italy and spread to the Rhine Valley. This however is just a theory and I will not be forcing anyone to accept it although the DF21+ Rutelli from Italy seems to be on the outer fringe of DF21 and provides possible evidence of my theory but you cannot base a theory on one person ..."


Now if that is "aggressively and unsuccessfully tried to push my theory onto the rest of Anthrogenica's subscribers" then you interpretation of the English lanuage leaves a lot to be desired, actually when Rutelli matched to Harbour I immediately acknowledged that this BOII Italian connection is a non-runner unlike you who have been consistantly bullying people with your Ui Bairrche nonsense, I guess the phrase "I was wrong" does not exist in your vocabulary.

Rory Cain
08-18-2014, 12:17 AM
Once again you show yourself up because here is the one an only time I mentioned the BOII tribe in this forum

"Actually if you really want to know what my own theory is, I believe that DF21 represents the Tuatha De Dannan who are descended from the ancient Celtic BOII tribe whom the river Boyne is named after (the Goddess Boann) and that the Sons of Mil and the BOII are one and the same. The BOII came from the Iberian peninsula originally and also Italy and spread to the Rhine Valley. This however is just a theory and I will not be forcing anyone to accept it although the DF21+ Rutelli from Italy seems to be on the outer fringe of DF21 and provides possible evidence of my theory but you cannot base a theory on one person ..."


Now if that is "aggressively and unsuccessfully tried to push my theory onto the rest of Anthrogenica's subscribers" then you interpretation of the English lanuage leaves a lot to be desired, actually when Rutelli matched to Harbour I immediately acknowledged that this BOII Italian connection is a non-runner unlike you who have been consistantly bullying people with your Ui Bairrche nonsense, I guess the phrase "I was wrong" does not exist in your vocabulary.

It appears that Seamas has moved away from his earlier theory of a Egyptian Coptic migration establishing the Celtic Church, a variant one supposes on the Milesian myth of invasions from the Greek and Eqyptian worlds. I think fellow correspondent rms2 brought some reality to that discussion.

So now apparently Seamas favours the Boii of Bohemia and the Po Valley in Italy and transplants them to Spain as both the Tuatha de Dana and the mythical sons of Mil. He appears to be throwing in his lot with O'Rahilly. Strange bedfellows, indeed!

Well, I have never disputed Seamas' right to subscribe to whatever theory he wants, so long as he will pay the same level of respect to others. Regretably he repeatedly attacks anyone who dares to hold a different view to his, as when Ian B questioned him turning the R1a MacDonald chieftains into DF21; when rms2 questioned him turning the Celtic Church into Egyptian Copts; and when RGM questioned his use of "L720 autosomal" DNA matches for a male line (alleged) descent instead of Y-DNA, where L720 is found. I'll bet that faux pas from Seamas raised quite a few eyebrows.

Having attacked pretty much everyone on this thread and finding himself alone, he turned upagain on the DF21 thread claiming everyone here had bullied him. I guess that means Ian B, RGM, rms2, Dubhthach, Jon, MacUlraig, Heber, indeed anyone who offered a more learned contribution to the discussion. From reading this thread it looks more like peoplefelt sorry for him being alone here and contributed in order to keep this thread alive after every incident where Seamas attacked and alienated yet another contributor. Perhaps, just perhaps, Seamas can heed Mike W's original comment to keep the heat down, if Seamas is only capable of doing that.

oneillabu
08-24-2014, 05:49 PM
It appears that Seamas has moved away from his earlier theory of a Egyptian Coptic migration establishing the Celtic Church, a variant one supposes on the Milesian myth of invasions from the Greek and Eqyptian worlds. I think fellow correspondent rms2 brought some reality to that discussion.





Response

I do not have a theory on the connections between the Coptic Church of Egypt and the Celtic Church, these are other peoples theories so I was quoting from a number of studies some dating from over 100 years ago that highlight what they feel are obvious similarities between these Churches, what I was responding to was the statement by you that there is no connection between Ireland and Egypt which is blatantly incorrect. Here are some indisputable connections.
Connection 1
Ptolemy’s map of Ireland from around 2000 years ago was constructed in the library of Alexandria in Egypt; it is widely believed that he constructed this map on much earlier information that existed in the library from travelers to Egypt from Ireland.
Connection 2
The skull of a Barbary Ape dating from around 300 BC was found in the ancient fort of Eamhain Macha in Ireland, obviously this creature had to be taken to Ireland by the Celts or maybe you think that they bought the creature on Ebay.
Connection 3
Celtic mercenaries were to be found in the Armies of the Pharaoh’s from very early times, this is a fact so it is not unreasonable to surmise that the Celts that came to Ireland already had knowledge of this area.
Connection 4
A discovery was made in Egypt of writing in Greek dating from 1000 BC by two persons with Celtic names which outlined their methods used in the capturing of dogs. Some mummified dogs from Egypt are almost identical to Irish Wolfhounds. The bones of these large dogs were also found by excavations at Eamhain Macha
Connection 5
The early Celtic Church is almost identical in structure to the Egyptian Coptic Church proving the early Christian connection. Also there is absolute evidence that Seven Coptic Monks were buriied in Ulster and the connection between Ireland and Egypt is mentioned in the Irish Stowe Missal which is the oldest Irish Missal in existence where it refers to the Egyptian Anchorites of the fourth century. Here is a link to a book that examines this connection.
http://books.google.ie/books?id=Cmey73GtfuUC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=seven+coptic+monks+ireland&source=bl&ots=Knwu0BLvPG&sig=JBI4EaNxladxf2ptDllEnq2Oxws&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dVHzU8upJNSe7AaVrYHYDA&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=seven%20coptic%20monks%20ireland&f=false

Connection 6
The cover of a Psalter (Fadden Mor) found in an Irish bog dating from around 800 AD was found to be much older than the book itself and a detailed examination of the cover revealed that it was constructed of Egyptian papyrus reeds and must have originated in Egypt.
Connection 7
The book of Kells uses a technique known to calligraphers as rubication was borrowed by the Celtic monks from Egyptian Coptic Christian manuscripts brought to Ireland by missionaries in the 5th Century
http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/AEmblem/BooKells.html
Connection 8
The ancient name for the hill of Tara is “Teamair” which translates to the (burial) mound of Tea (pronounced Chi) who was the wife of Eremon of the Milesian line and of Egyptian origin. Also the wife of Milesius was Scota or Scotia was the daughter of an Egyptian Pharaoh.

Connection 9
Written in a single passage in the life of St John the Almsgiver the Greek patriarch of Alexandria between 610 AD and 621 AD is reference to a vessel sailing to Alexandria from Britain with a cargo of tin from Cornwall. This trade must have been in place during the time of Ptolemy and travellers using this crossing were doubtless the source of Irish literature in the Alexandria library from which Ptolemy created his map

Now unless yourself and rms2 have found some evidence contradicting these connections then the only reality you are bringing to this discussion is that you have nothing but a blinkered view of ancient history and are not open to any theories that contradict this view.

Rory Cain
08-28-2014, 02:42 AM
Response

I do not have a theory on the connections between the Coptic Church of Egypt and the Celtic Church, these are other peoples theories so I was quoting from a number of studies some dating from over 100 years ago that highlight what they feel are obvious similarities between these Churches, what I was responding to was the statement by you that there is no connection between Ireland and Egypt which is blatantly incorrect. Here are some indisputable connections.







Connection 8
The ancient name for the hill of Tara is “Teamair” which translates to the (burial) mound of Tea (pronounced Chi) who was the wife of Eremon of the Milesian line and of Egyptian origin. Also the wife of Milesius was Scota or Scotia was the daughter of an Egyptian Pharaoh.

Now unless yourself and rms2 have found some evidence contradicting these connections then the only reality you are bringing to this discussion is that you have nothing but a blinkered view of ancient history and are not open to any theories that contradict this view.

rms2 has already dealt with most of Seamas' Coptic Egyptian theory earlier and Seamas simply restating the same material adds nthing of value.

His reference to the Milesian myth indicates that Seamas still subscribes to the long-discredited Leabhor Gabhala Errainn or Book of Invasions with its improbable series of Assyrian, Parthalonian, Nemedian, Danaan and Milesian invaders from the Greek and Egyptian worlds. A good nursery tale for infants. Seamas must have locked himself away from the scholarly world for a century. A far more up to date account has been provided in these pages by Alan:
Erainn
Cruithne
Britons (i.e. Gauls who arrived via Britain)
Fir Belg or Belgae

It is abundantly clear to me who is the more scholarly and well read out of Seamas and Alan, or rms2. I'll stick with Alan and rms2.

Rory Cain
08-28-2014, 11:11 PM
Looking at the tribes that electricscotland makes to be Erainn, few have had their DNA established with any certainty. However they appear to include:
O Driscoll, chief of Corcu Luighde, haplogroup I-PF4135
O'Shea, part of the Corcu Duibhne, R-L513
MacCurtin, part of the Corcu Modhruadh, J-M172
Breasal, Phelan, Whelan of the Deisi Mumha, R-L144/L195/CTS1751
O'Brien of Dal gCais, R-L226
O Tracy of Ui Bairrche Tire, R-DF21

A number of confounding factors exist of course.
1. The list on electricscotland's website appears ambitious. Other evidence suggests that the Dal gCais, Deisi, Ui Bairrche and others of that list do not belong there, but under other banners.
2. Many Irish surnames have multiple origins and these are harder to attribute a DNA type to than those surnames with a single origin.

Notwithstanding all that, and deleting three of those above who I suspect are nor Erainn, that leaves three accepted Erainn septs with I-PF4135, R-L513 and J-M172. That may well be so, as the group name Erainn may well refer to all the aboriginal inhabitants of Ireland, whatever their origin or ancestor. Maybe I should have started with the Cruithne? Or Gauls? Or Belgae?

Rory, I'm involved in the L513 group. It's still a bit of a mystery, although getting clearer with Chromo2 etc. It seems like the two big irish clusters are Maguire in Fermanagh/Monaghan, and the O'Shea group you mention. Could any of you guys comment on this? Might there be a possible link historically between these two, or is the L513 connection more likely just random? I'v long thought that the huge presence of L513 in SW Scotland must at least partly be down to Dalriada, or pre-Dalriada movement.[/QUOTE]

In another thread, Seamas oneill-boo-boo appears to make these folks, including the Corcu Laidhe, Corcu Duibhne, Corcu mRuadh, Dal Riata, etc into R-DF21 >S5488. That would appear simplistic, at best. Or just plain wrong. His work is poorly researched and he repeatedly just deletes any piece of information that does not git into his preconceived solution.

R-L513 for instance appear to have quite a westerly distribution up the Atlantic coasts of Ireland and Scotland. That might suggest the Dal Riata if one looks at Scotland, or the Circu Duibhne if one looks at the Co Kerry pocket of R-L513. Of course the Corcu Duibhne and Dal Riata claim to share a common ancestor.

oneillabu
08-30-2014, 10:35 PM
Rory, I'm involved in the L513 group. It's still a bit of a mystery, although getting clearer with Chromo2 etc. It seems like the two big irish clusters are Maguire in Fermanagh/Monaghan, and the O'Shea group you mention. Could any of you guys comment on this? Might there be a possible link historically between these two, or is the L513 connection more likely just random? I'v long thought that the huge presence of L513 in SW Scotland must at least partly be down to Dalriada, or pre-Dalriada movement.

RORY VS THE WIZARD A BOO BOO THE FINAL SHOWDOWN EPISODE 1

QUE THE CREEPY MUSIC

Do do do do, do do do do, do do do do, do do do do, do do do do, do do do do, do do,

There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man, only Rory. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of Rory’s imagination. It is an area which we call the DNA Twilight Zone.


In tonight’s episode we visit the L21 dimension once again, in our last episode you saw Rory’s magic create the Brigante / Ui Bairrche portal from one Tracey hair from the DF21 head. With this portal he attempted to teleport the entire DF21 head to this Brigante / Ui Bairrche region of his imagination and it was only by the timely intervention of the Wizard a Boo Boo that this malicious act of madness was thwarted.

However now Rory has turned his attention to the L513 area of the L21 dimension, inside the L513 gate we find two passageways, the first leads to the S6365 chamber, inside this chamber we find the following people

Coleman (Ui Fiachrach), Nicholson (Scottish or Anglo Saxon), Moody (Anglo Saxon), Healy (Irish Sligo name), Devine (Fermanagh Surname), Johnston (Scottish Border Riever name), Roddy (Galway Ui Maine), Denson (Yorkshire name), Anglin (Cork Surname), Starr (Anglo Saxon), Coffey, Matthews, (Welsh), Sears (Anglo Norman) , Breene (Irish name Multiple origins), Brown (Anglo Norman), Scanlan (Irish name Multiple origins), Fritts (German Surname), Winter (Anglo Saxon), Kingston (Anglo Saxon), Collins (Irish Ui Fidhgheinte), Noe (French surname), White (Anglo Saxon), Lewis (Welsh), Pitts (Flemish name), Banks (Anglo Saxon), Morris (Anglo Norman), Edwards (Welsh), Jones (Welsh), Gardner (Anglo Saxon), Phillips (Welsh), Adams (Anglo Saxon), Bargeon (France), Owens (Welsh), Barrett (Norman), Munnerlyn (unknown), Walsh (Welsh Norman), Butler (Welsh Norman), Sunesson (Sweden),

QUE POWERFUL DRAMATIC AUSSIE MUSIC (men at work?) followed by loud explosions and a thick cloud of smoke. Out of this smoke emerges a Crocodile Dundee type figure sporting a very very big knife.

WHO DO WE HAVE IN HERE HE THUNDERS

I have a Welsh surname stammered a scared individual followed by a chorus of “ME TOO” from a large number of people, I have an Anglo Saxon name someone replied in a heavy Yorkshire accent, this again was followed by a large chorus of “ME TOO” , “SILENCE” Rory screamed, YOU THERE IN THE KILT, ARE YOU DAL RIADA, NO the startled Scotman replied, I am from a Border Riever clan.

This completely enraged Rory, WHERE ARE THE CORCA LAIDHE HE BELLOWED? Corca What said a voice in a Swedish accent, SACRE BLEU, what is this CORCA LAIDHE of which you speak said an extremely annoyed French man.

Rory pointed his very very big knife at these continentals menacingly and said

Everyone who is Irish step forward and tell me what you are

Coleman, I am Ui Fiachrach
Healy clan from Sligo
Devine from Fermanagh
Roddy, Ui Maine from Galway
Anglin from Cork
Breene multiple origins in Ireland however not Corca Laidhe
Scanlan multiple origins in Ireland no Corca Laidhe

Rory turned away dejectedly but just when he thought all was lost a voice cried out

I AM COFFEY, I AM CORCA LAIDHE!!!!!!!!!

Rory was elated, he remembered the portal he opened using just the one DF21 Tracey so there is no reason that the same trick cannot work again however he also remembered the Wizard a BOO BOO and his persistent meddling but this time Rory vowed, it will be different and victory will be mine.

Summoning all the power of his imagination Rory began creating the Portal and fusing all the people to Corca Laidhe Coffey through which he will turn all L513 people into Corca Laidhe / Dal Riada but then Rory remembered the other L513 tunnel called S5668, in this tunnel I will find my Dal Riada even though both tunnels are mutually exclusive

In episode 2 we see the final showdown between the Wizard a BOO BOO and Rory

Coming soon to an imaginary cinema near you

Mikewww
08-31-2014, 01:43 AM
oneillabu, This appears a bit verbose. A little humour is okay but please try to focus on the topic and avoid personally directed sarcasm. (posted as a moderator so consider it a warning)

RORY VS THE WIZARD A BOO BOO THE FINAL SHOWDOWN EPISODE 1

QUE THE CREEPY MUSIC

Do do do do, do do do do, do do do do, do do do do, do do do do, do do do do, do do,

There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man, only Rory. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of Rory’s imagination. It is an area which we call the DNA Twilight Zone.


In tonight’s episode we visit the L21 dimension once again, in our last episode you saw Rory’s magic create the Brigante / Ui Bairrche portal from one Tracey hair from the DF21 head. With this portal he attempted to teleport the entire DF21 head to this Brigante / Ui Bairrche region of his imagination and it was only by the timely intervention of the Wizard a Boo Boo that this malicious act of madness was thwarted.

However now Rory has turned his attention to the L513 area of the L21 dimension, inside the L513 gate we find two passageways, the first leads to the S6365 chamber, inside this chamber we find the following people

Coleman (Ui Fiachrach), Nicholson (Scottish or Anglo Saxon), Moody (Anglo Saxon), Healy (Irish Sligo name), Devine (Fermanagh Surname), Johnston (Scottish Border Riever name), Roddy (Galway Ui Maine), Denson (Yorkshire name), Anglin (Cork Surname), Starr (Anglo Saxon), Coffey, Matthews, (Welsh), Sears (Anglo Norman) , Breene (Irish name Multiple origins), Brown (Anglo Norman), Scanlan (Irish name Multiple origins), Fritts (German Surname), Winter (Anglo Saxon), Kingston (Anglo Saxon), Collins (Irish Ui Fidhgheinte), Noe (French surname), White (Anglo Saxon), Lewis (Welsh), Pitts (Flemish name), Banks (Anglo Saxon), Morris (Anglo Norman), Edwards (Welsh), Jones (Welsh), Gardner (Anglo Saxon), Phillips (Welsh), Adams (Anglo Saxon), Bargeon (France), Owens (Welsh), Barrett (Norman), Munnerlyn (unknown), Walsh (Welsh Norman), Butler (Welsh Norman), Sunesson (Sweden),

QUE POWERFUL DRAMATIC AUSSIE MUSIC (men at work?) followed by loud explosions and a thick cloud of smoke. Out of this smoke emerges a Crocodile Dundee type figure sporting a very very big knife.

WHO DO WE HAVE IN HERE HE THUNDERS

I have a Welsh surname stammered a scared individual followed by a chorus of “ME TOO” from a large number of people, I have an Anglo Saxon name someone replied in a heavy Yorkshire accent, this again was followed by a large chorus of “ME TOO” , “SILENCE” Rory screamed, YOU THERE IN THE KILT, ARE YOU DAL RIADA, NO the startled Scotman replied, I am from a Border Riever clan.

This completely enraged Rory, WHERE ARE THE CORCA LAIDHE HE BELLOWED? Corca What said a voice in a Swedish accent, SACRE BLEU, what is this CORCA LAIDHE of which you speak said an extremely annoyed French man.

Rory pointed his very very big knife at these continentals menacingly and said

Everyone who is Irish step forward and tell me what you are

Coleman, I am Ui Fiachrach
Healy clan from Sligo
Devine from Fermanagh
Roddy, Ui Maine from Galway
Anglin from Cork
Breene multiple origins in Ireland however not Corca Laidhe
Scanlan multiple origins in Ireland no Corca Laidhe

Rory turned away dejectedly but just when he thought all was lost a voice cried out

I AM COFFEY, I AM CORCA LAIDHE!!!!!!!!!

Rory was elated, he remembered the portal he opened using just the one DF21 Tracey so there is no reason that the same trick cannot work again however he also remembered the Wizard a BOO BOO and his persistent meddling but this time Rory vowed, it will be different and victory will be mine.

Summoning all the power of his imagination Rory began creating the Portal and fusing all the people to Corca Laidhe Coffey through which he will turn all L513 people into Corca Laidhe / Dal Riada but then Rory remembered the other L513 tunnel called S5668, in this tunnel I will find my Dal Riada even though both tunnels are mutually exclusive

In episode 2 we see the final showdown between the Wizard a BOO BOO and Rory

Coming soon to an imaginary cinema near you

oneillabu
08-31-2014, 06:19 PM
oneillabu, This appears a bit verbose. A little humour is okay but please try to focus on the topic and avoid personally directed sarcasm. (posted as a moderator so consider it a warning)

I guess that is the end of episode 2 then, I had just reached the part where the Wizard a BOO BOO was captured, tied to an Ogham stone and tortured to make him reject his Dal Riada claim, there will definitely be no movie now.

I guess it's back to quoting Genetic Distances and matching surnames to pedigrees and looking at the people that they actually do closely match and then trying to look for supporting archeological evidence, you know the kind of stuff that is completely ignored on these forums.

These yellow cards are definitely one-sided because there are very few DF21 people that Rory has not insulted as well as imposing his own pet origin theory on all DF21 people and stating that this is one thing we can take as an absolute certainty without any published research or evidence whatsoever, he has even labelled all branches as Brigante in his Cain project. I seem to recall Jim Wilson being attacked from all sides for suggesting that L1065 was the DNA of the Scottish Picts, outrageous was the cry and yet he based this on careful evaluation of a large amount of data unlike Rory who simply invented his theory with no research produced. I guess project Administrators are free from sanction and can even unashamedly promote his own Z248 DNA down to the smallest of branches while depriving all other members of David Reynolds project of a place on the coveted FTDNA Y-Haplotree, is it any wonder that we have not established even one confirmed origin for any Celtic clan (except Rory's certainties) and this will not change once attitudes like that exist.

Incidentely, I stated as far back as two years ago that the evidence for the origins of M222 firmly points to Northern Britain, and as usual I was ridiculed from all sides, this is what you can expect when you dare to challenge the current cosy status quo

Mikewww
09-01-2014, 04:56 AM
I guess that is the end of episode 2 then, I had just reached the part where the Wizard a BOO BOO was captured, tied to an Ogham stone and tortured to make him reject his Dal Riada claim, there will definitely be no movie now.

I guess it's back to quoting Genetic Distances and matching surnames to pedigrees and looking at the people that they actually do closely match and then trying to look for supporting archeological evidence, you know the kind of stuff that is completely ignored on these forums.

These yellow cards are definitely one-sided because there are very few DF21 people that Rory has not insulted as well as imposing his own pet origin theory on all DF21 people and stating that this is one thing we can take as an absolute certainty without any published research or evidence whatsoever, he has even labelled all branches as Brigante in his Cain project. I seem to recall Jim Wilson being attacked from all sides for suggesting that L1065 was the DNA of the Scottish Picts, outrageous was the cry and yet he based this on careful evaluation of a large amount of data unlike Rory who simply invented his theory with no research produced. I guess project Administrators are free from sanction and can even unashamedly promote his own Z248 DNA down to the smallest of branches while depriving all other members of David Reynolds project of a place on the coveted FTDNA Y-Haplotree, is it any wonder that we have not established even one confirmed origin for any Celtic clan (except Rory's certainties) and this will not change once attitudes like that exist.

Incidentely, I stated as far back as two years ago that the evidence for the origins of M222 firmly points to Northern Britain, and as usual I was ridiculed from all sides, this is what you can expect when you dare to challenge the current cosy status quo

Sorry if GD's, etc. are boring for you. You are welcome to have opinions about Irish kings or whatever although we should try to stay on track with some tie into genetic DF21 related information.

However, I don't appreciate that you threw in another "dig" or two on Rory. I have argued verhemently with Rory on some topics. Disagreement is fine but I seen nothing wrong with Rory having a different point of view than mine or yours. Is there a chance I've missed something as a moderator? sure, but two wrongs don't make a right.

We need to stay away from personally oriented negative comments and sarcasm. You seem bent on following this line. You should consider this "strike two" in the warning department.

Jon
09-01-2014, 06:00 PM
Hi All,
I certainly don't want to throw oil on any fires here, but since I originally raised L513 in this thread and wondered about its connection to DF21, I wanted to pick up on Rory's latest point. I hope that's OK.

Rory, I'm interested in your sources for L513 west Atlantic concentration - I still use the FTDNA 11-13 results map, as well as Semargl. Although L513 does seem to have representation in England, and to a more significant extent in Wales, I cannot escape the conclusion that it is still heaviest by far in Scotland and Ireland, with particular concentration on the western coastal areas, I completely agree.

What does this mean? I know it's early days. L513 is very very old - I think of it kinda like a more isles-specific L21 actually. But it has neatly defined subgroups already, the largest of which, to my knowledge, are in Ireland and Scotland. In keeping with Ewan Campbell's questioning of the Irish invasion of Scotland idea, I guess this could represent the ancient heritage that has always existed between the two countries. Were the Erainn in Scotland before the Dalriadan migration I wonder? Given that L193 is not that closely related to the big Irish subgroups (although they do both share S5668...), this would seem to be a very old relationship, although one which might suggest shared Goedelic heritage.

Any thoughts?

Jon

Dubhthach
09-01-2014, 07:01 PM
With regards to L513, one of most interesting clusters is the whole Airgialla II (Airgialla = Oirialla in modern Irish, anglisced as Oriel). What's interesting is this cluster appears to be linked to L513 through some of the new SNP's found in BigY. Namely A2, what's interesting of course is that the archaeology is pointing at some "Romano-British" influence in the general Airghialla area. For example the Hillfort of Clogher in what is now Tyrone.

http://www.magheneparish.ie/images/parishesofclogher5.jpg

The diocese of Clogher roughly maps onto territorial boundary of the Airghialla "confederation" during the early 12th century. What's interesting is the apparant binary division into the later lordships of Fermanagh (Maguire) and Monaghan (McMahon) seems to map onto difference between Airghialla II (L513) and Airghialla I (Clan Colla -- DF21) cluster.

Decent article on Clogher here:
http://www.academia.edu/7150576/Clogher_an_archaeological_window_on_early_Medieval _Tyrone_and_Mid_Ulster

What I think you are seeing with L193 and with the SNP's that define Airghialla II (FGC9795 FGC9807 FGC9794 FGC9777 FGC9773 FGC9798 Z16341 FGC9811 FGC9793 FGC9810 FGC9780 FGC9784 FGC9803 Z16338 FGC9786 Z16335 Z16336 FGC9816) is a shared "Insular Celtic" origin. Archaelogy speaking the northern half of Ireland sees increased contact with northern Britain in period after 200BC (before then Ireland was in a "Irish dark age"), so for example you've probably seen maps like this:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg

There's some debate that the Airgialla were basically "subject people" of the Ulaidh (Ulstermen) who switched allegiance to the rising power of the "Dál Cuinn" (Uí Néill and the Connachta), as a result they had their genealogy rewritten in 8th-9th century for political reasons etc.

Jon
09-01-2014, 08:08 PM
Many thanks Dubhthach (and for the pronunciation guide ;))

Do I understand that 'insular celtic' refers to pre-Iron Age inhabitants shared by both islands? If so, don't you think the modern-day distribution of L513 is a bit too Scottish/irish, and western? I mean I can't really see a huge English representation in it at all...could this simply be due to historical population displacement of Celts by Romans, Saxons etc. etc?

I feel that to put L193 down to Dalriada, or even to general movement from Ireland, would be premature. Even M222 has been revised from the old days of every single case in western Scotland being pegged up to Niall's hoards (!). But I still see those groupings hugging the Irish Sea on both sides, and L193 has been said to be fairly recent historically, also being almost ridiculously exclusive to Scotland...but then not in Pictland either...nor closely related to any groups which could confidently be tied to England or Wales either...what's going on?!

Jon

Dubhthach
09-01-2014, 09:53 PM
Well I don't see it has any connection to Dál Riata, tbh it's hard to say about Dál Riata in general given that they were basically destroyed as a powerbase in Ireland in the 7th-8th century by the expansion of Dál nAraidi (Cruithne) in what is now co. Antrim.

My feeling is that A2 probably arose in what is now Britain, it spilt with one group developing as L193 in Britain the other giving rise to what we term Airghialla II in Ireland. The same is probably the case for M222 as well. There is L513 showing up with men with more recent Welsh ancestry. Mike is a good example, his surname which is now the 2nd or 3rd most common in Ireland arrived post 1169 with the Cambro-Normans. ;)

(Mike with all your "mod powers" -- don't tase me bro!)

Rory Cain
09-01-2014, 11:46 PM
Hi All,
I certainly don't want to throw oil on any fires here, but since I originally raised L513 in this thread and wondered about its connection to DF21, I wanted to pick up on Rory's latest point. I hope that's OK.

Rory, I'm interested in your sources for L513 west Atlantic concentration - I still use the FTDNA 11-13 results map, as well as Semargl. Although L513 does seem to have representation in England, and to a more significant extent in Wales, I cannot escape the conclusion that it is still heaviest by far in Scotland and Ireland, with particular concentration on the western coastal areas, I completely agree.

What does this mean? I know it's early days. L513 is very very old - I think of it kinda like a more isles-specific L21 actually. But it has neatly defined subgroups already, the largest of which, to my knowledge, are in Ireland and Scotland. In keeping with Ewan Campbell's questioning of the Irish invasion of Scotland idea, I guess this could represent the ancient heritage that has always existed between the two countries. Were the Erainn in Scotland before the Dalriadan migration I wonder? Given that L193 is not that closely related to the big Irish subgroups (although they do both share S5668...), this would seem to be a very old relationship, although one which might suggest shared Goedelic heritage.

Any thoughts?

Jon

Jon, Paul has beaten me to it with a nice summary of the Airghialla territory. In "Hand of History" Fr Tom O'Connor makes the Airghialla territory one of a series of landgrabs off Ulster by Connaught, each subsequently settled as swordland by mercenaries serving Connaught. The previous landgrab before Airghiall was Breifne, where the "Breifne clans" DNA type was identified, Z253+ but L226-. Then as Paul stated, L513 in the Fermanagh end of Airghiall and DF21 in the eastern end known as Oriel, a curruption if Airghialla. Fr O'Connor believes Airghiall was originally Oir Ghialla or "eastern subjects", i.e. eastern in relation to the Connaught regime. He also believe that the three mythical Colla brothers were a historical fabrication, and originated as three Collaibh or fighting bands: the Collaich Uais who he equates with the Ciannachta, and the Collaibh mean who he equates with the Menapi, and the Collaibh Oige or Collaibh Fo Chri, descendants of an earlier Menapi group grated swordland west of Dublin.

I know your primary interest is in L513. I just widened it out to illustrate that L513 may have been part of a much bigger folk movement that included neighbour now settled in Ulster who may have been neighbours further south before going north to cut out swordland in Ulster. I am sure Paul is correct about genealogies being fabricated- perhaps more than once. It remains an open question whether DF21 entered Ireland from the northeast or the southeast, or perhaps from both directions. Those genealogies tying DF21 to Ulster also appear to me to be the most fabicated, not that I would discount the northern route on that basis alone. I suspect that trying to trace L513 through genealogies will also be fraught with missinformation. Frankly I don't think the genealogies are going to be of much use to us. I don't have access to a map of L513's distribution but it would be useful.

Rory

Heber
09-02-2014, 01:58 AM
I don't have access to a map of L513's distribution but it would be useful.

Rory

2523

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-l513/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df21/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df49/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-z253/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-c4466/

Jon
09-02-2014, 07:55 AM
Thanks Rory for the information, and Gerard for the excellent maps. Do you happen to have the same distribution maps for Britain?

At first glance what strikes me is how much more L513 than DF21 there is in Ireland. Also how coastal L513 seems, hugging the western seaboards. The Ulster/Kerry concentration is weird also - opposite ends of the country! But this ties up with what you said earlier Rory.

Does the consensus seem to be on L513 being older/indigenous? This might explain its wide spread over Ireland and the UK. But it still seems much more frequent in Ireland than I had first appreciated....

Jon

Rory Cain
09-02-2014, 08:24 AM
Thanks Rory for the information, and Gerard for the excellent maps. Do you happen to have the same distribution maps for Britain?

At first glance what strikes me is how much more L513 than DF21 there is in Ireland. Also how coastal L513 seems, hugging the western seaboards. The Ulster/Kerry concentration is weird also - opposite ends of the country! But this ties up with what you said earlier Rory.

Does the consensus seem to be on L513 being older/indigenous? This might explain its wide spread over Ireland and the UK. But it still seems much more frequent in Ireland than I had first appreciated....

Jon

Jon, the most honest answer I can give to those questions is "I don't know". I suspect that L513's Atlantic Coastal distribution points to it's being an older indigenous population. However Gerard's map of L513 also shows some affinity with Fr Tom O'Connor's account of the Collaibh Menn and Collaibh Oige descended from the Menapi.

The L513 pockets in Fermanagh southwest of Dublin stood out after I refreshed my memory of O'Connor's work. I never thought of L513 as representing the sea-faring Menapi, but now I can't rule it out.

Maybe I also better refresh my memory of Norman Mongan's Menapia Quest. We have been talking of the better-known tribes like the Erainn, Dal Riata, etc., and maybe the Menapi have slipped under the radar?

Dubhthach
09-02-2014, 09:42 AM
Jon, Paul has beaten me to it with a nice summary of the Airghialla territory. In "Hand of History" Fr Tom O'Connor makes the Airghialla territory one of a series of landgrabs off Ulster by Connaught, each subsequently settled as swordland by mercenaries serving Connaught. The previous landgrab before Airghiall was Breifne, where the "Breifne clans" DNA type was identified, Z253+ but L226-. Then as Paul stated, L513 in the Fermanagh end of Airghiall and DF21 in the eastern end known as Oriel, a curruption if Airghialla. Fr O'Connor believes Airghiall was originally Oir Ghialla or "eastern subjects", i.e. eastern in relation to the Connaught regime. He also believe that the three mythical Colla brothers were a historical fabrication, and originated as three Collaibh or fighting bands: the Collaich Uais who he equates with the Ciannachta, and the Collaibh mean who he equates with the Menapi, and the Collaibh Oige or Collaibh Fo Chri, descendants of an earlier Menapi group grated swordland west of Dublin.

I know your primary interest is in L513. I just widened it out to illustrate that L513 may have been part of a much bigger folk movement that included neighbour now settled in Ulster who may have been neighbours further south before going north to cut out swordland in Ulster. I am sure Paul is correct about genealogies being fabricated- perhaps more than once. It remains an open question whether DF21 entered Ireland from the northeast or the southeast, or perhaps from both directions. Those genealogies tying DF21 to Ulster also appear to me to be the most fabicated, not that I would discount the northern route on that basis alone. I suspect that trying to trace L513 through genealogies will also be fraught with missinformation. Frankly I don't think the genealogies are going to be of much use to us. I don't have access to a map of L513's distribution but it would be useful.

Rory

Rory not having read the book I can't comment, but it sounds like he's taking the old view of "sword-land" when most historians now adays think that the various groups within the Airgíalla (there were 9 dynastical groups in the confederation) were actually probably already in situ and had for want of better word "switched overlord". The ethmoylogy about "hostages of gold" is regarded as false by the way.

TM. Charles-Edwards goes into to some detail about the Airgíalla origin poems in his book "Early Christian Ireland", extracts of the book can be seen here, but unfotunetly the Airgíalla sections aren't in the preview:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=g6yq2sKLlFkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=early+christian+ireland&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c44FVJutBeup7AbNsICoAg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=early%20christian%20ireland&f=false

Basically part of the tieing in of the Airgíalla to the Uí Néill (not to the Connachta) includes the lampooning of the Connachta who in the Airgíalla "charter poems" are called "The men with the unintoxicating drinks" a pun on Fir Ol nEchmacht (the men of Ol nEchmacht -- old name for province of Connacht before the arrival of the Connachta is: Cóiced Ol nEchmacht = "The province of the Ol nEchmacht")

Given that a number of Uladh/Cruithne (Dál Fiatach/Dál nAraide) king claimed the "high kingship of Tara" in the 7th century it's probable that the switch of the Airgíalla was after this point. Thus they were given a nice little detailed ancestry to tied them into wider Dál Cuinn plus to emphasise their links with the Uí Néill in particular.

Another key people who provided military service to the Uí Néill/Dál Cuinn in this period are the Cíannachta (Cíannacht = singular)

--

Ciannachta Breg – found in Brega, later conquered by the Síl nÁedo Sláine
Ciannachta Glinne Geimin – found in Cenél nEógain, in the barony of Keenaght, County Londonderry
Ard Ciannachta – barony of Ferrard, County Louth (see Conaille Muirtheimne)

---

If anything it looks like it was the Cíannachta who conqueored Brega (what we now call Meath) where Tara is situated.

Anyways I got the paperback copy of Early Christian Ireland for about €50 it's well worth it, has detailed sections on origins of Uí Néill etc.

Here's the bio of the author from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Charles-Edwards

Dubhthach
09-02-2014, 10:17 AM
2523

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-l513/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df21/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df49/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-z253/
http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-c4466/

Gerard,

Do you have breakdown of the surnames in that L513 map. Given the distrubition it wouldn't surprise me if a good chunk of it in the likes of Mayo, Cork/Kerry, Kildare/Kilkenny is due to Cambro-Norman's. It would be good to see a map that was xL193 as well, given that most of the L193 in Ireland is probably post 1609.

-Paul

Heber
09-02-2014, 10:44 AM
Gerard,

Do you have breakdown of the surnames in that L513 map. Given the distrubition it wouldn't surprise me if a good chunk of it in the likes of Mayo, Cork/Kerry, Kildare/Kilkenny is due to Cambro-Norman's. It would be good to see a map that was xL193 as well, given that most of the L193 in Ireland is probably post 1609.

-Paul

Paul,

Here is the distribution of surnames based on data from the beginning of this year.

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534766787476/

I suspect that there an East West bias in the maps as many Gaelic families were driven west in the 17th century.
I can see this with my own family who apparently originated in the Ely O Carroll Country in the midlands, moved West in the 17th Century and returned to the same parish they originated from in the 19th century.
The West was also the area of highest emigration during the Great Famine to the USA so that may be reflected in the results as many of the testers are from the Diaspora community..
The L513 map appears to reflect your map of ancient Airghilla.
I need to update the maps (with the help of Howard Mathierson) to reflect the latest datasets and include complete maps of the Isles.
You can find Bubble Charts which show Isles distribution in most of the boards.

Jon
09-02-2014, 12:09 PM
Is there perhaps a picture emerging then of the S5668 guys (Airghialla II and L193) basically having shared ancestry in west Scotland/north Ireland, and the S6365 guys (including O'Shea of Kerry plus the big Wales group) having shared ancestry? This would I guess fit with the common sense of close proximity indicating shared ancestry...?

Sorry to keep harping on about L193 but it is a weird one...it is one of the most country-specific HG's I've seen. As Dubhthach mentioned, most L193 in Ireland seems post plantation, given the surnames (I'd also love to see a map minus L193...). But too far south to be Picts I guess, not enough in England or Wales to match Strathclyde Britons. The most convincing explanation I have read is Ewen Campbell's, who talks of the 'Sea Kingdom' of shared ancestry in Ireland and west Scotland, with a shared Gaelic language and trading/cultural links as well. Makes a lot of sense when you consider geography, and is less dramatic than the sudden invasion theory.

Mikewww
09-02-2014, 04:09 PM
Well I don't see it has any connection to Dál Riata, tbh it's hard to say about Dál Riata in general given that they were basically destroyed as a powerbase in Ireland in the 7th-8th century by the expansion of Dál nAraidi (Cruithne) in what is now co. Antrim.

My feeling is that A2 probably arose in what is now Britain, it spilt with one group developing as L193 in Britain the other giving rise to what we term Airghialla II in Ireland. The same is probably the case for M222 as well. There is L513 showing up with men with more recent Welsh ancestry. Mike is a good example, his surname which is now the 2nd or 3rd most common in Ireland arrived post 1169 with the Cambro-Normans. ;)

To be honest, I'm still looking for the "smoking gun" on this stuff. I think we are closing in on the 1000 to 1500 years but the old SNP TMRCA's (Time to Most Recent Common Ancestors) like L513, S5668 and S6365 are probably from a good 3000 years ago. We could be totally off on our sites back then. People just don't stay still and folks like Vineviz trained me that frequency is not a good indicator of origin. I oftentimes envision that Caesar may have had more impact than we can imagine. If you were against him, you probably had to leave Gaul. I stayed at Caesar's Palace recently and marveled that the centerpiece of the pool is this large statue of a man who lived 2000 years ago.
http://www.frontiereland.be/ouest/ouest2/caesars2.jpg
http://www.lasvegastourism.com/caesars_palace_hotel/8.jpg
The photos don't do justice to the actual sizes.

The good news is another walked the earth back then too, who is worthy.


(Mike with all your "mod powers" -- don't tase me bro!)

Well, I hope I'm not too scary. Moderators and Administrators get "reported" posts every now and then I don't always jump in but I try to keep us on topic rather than personal insulats. Sometimes it is quite difficult to ferret out multiple posts. This reminds oftentimes of separating my kids who were always adept at "... but he started it!".

Rory Cain
09-02-2014, 10:48 PM
Well, I hope I'm not too scary. Moderators and Administrators get "reported" posts every now and then I don't always jump in but I try to keep us on topic rather than personal insulats. Sometimes it is quite difficult to ferret out multiple posts. This reminds oftentimes of separating my kids who were always adept at "... but he started it!".

As it started on another thread, you missed the beginning. I figured the guy was a nutter, refrained from responding and left that thread for this one. He found me again, started attacking again, and when I failed to respond yet again he attacked "R", a victim of childhood bullying, who did respond but was distressed and confused and fired a shot at me. "R" was expelled and so the attacker was encouraged to continue his ways. Until he grew so bold as to take on the terminator. You may remember me appealing for clemency for "R" as he was not the trouble-maker and I knew something of his background. He has been a model citizen since being reinstated, which think vindicates him.

You guys can continue talking about this if you wish. I am over it. I will thank Seamas for starting this thread. I despaired every time someone joined in and he drove them away. It's good to see the virbant discussion that has sprung up again after his departure. For my part, always I hoped he would change his style and be valuable contributor. In starting this thread, he has.

Rory Cain
09-02-2014, 11:16 PM
Another key people who provided military service to the Uí Néill/Dál Cuinn in this period are the Cíannachta (Cíannacht = singular)

--

Ciannachta Breg – found in Brega, later conquered by the Síl nÁedo Sláine
Ciannachta Glinne Geimin – found in Cenél nEógain, in the barony of Keenaght, County Londonderry
Ard Ciannachta – barony of Ferrard, County Louth (see Conaille Muirtheimne)

---

If anything it looks like it was the Cíannachta who conqueored Brega (what we now call Meath) where Tara is situated.

Anyways I got the paperback copy of Early Christian Ireland for about €50 it's well worth it, has detailed sections on origins of Uí Néill etc.

Here's the bio of the author from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Charles-Edwards

Paul, I agree in large part. After being implanted (as I tend to see it), the Airghialla appear to have changed their allegiance from the Ui Briuin to the Ui Niall without changing location. Then the Ui Niall expanded their power over the Airghialla.

The Ciannachta that Fr O'Connor referred to as the Airghialla descending from were not those that we all think of as bearing the name Ciannachta, but the Eile of Bri Eile, descendants of Tadhg Mac Cian. The Eile (anglicised as Ely) and Ui Ciaran stayed in location and don't seem to be thought of as Ciannachta. But that's who their genealogy traced them from. Fr O'Connor relates that when Cormac Mac Airt of Connacht took the region that includes Tara from Ulster at the Battle of Cath Crinna, "His army consisted of the Colla Menn tribes of Galway, their kinsmen, the Fir Managh of Dublin and Wicklow, the Ciannachta of Tadhg Mac Cein, and the Luighne and Gailenga."

The Fir Managh of Dublin and Wicklow appear to fit your scenario of a local tribe simply changing side. Having been pushed north from Wexford by the invading Laigin, the Menapi ended up along the Avoca River and northwards. The Ciannachta Breg were brought in by Tadhg Mac Cein as part of Cormac's army. Or at least that's how Fr O'Connor sees it. So we have examples of both, incomers rewarded with swordland and septs changing sides.

DNA evidence now confirms that the Airghialla of eastern Oriel and the Ely O'Carroll are both DF21. At that point in time their sub-clades of S971 and S5488 lack an umbrella SNP connecting them so I have not fully committed toFr O'Connor's thesis. But also bearing in mind that Fr O'Connor wrote before recent DNA developments and had no knowledge of (or interest in) DNA, it's remarkable that he would associate the Airghialla with the Eile as both being Ciannachta offshoots.

On the other hand, I don't see the same evidence for the Luighne and Gailenga being DF21+, so I tend to reserve judgement somewhat. Not wanting to pour oil on the fire either, this is really where I used to differ from Seamas, where some evidence existed but gaps existed too. I incurred wrath if I pointed out the gaps because Seamas wanted a 100% solution where often only a 50% solution existed. Re the Ciannachta and Menapi I suspect Fr O'Connor is running at somewhat better than 50%, and warrants examination.

Dubhthach
09-03-2014, 11:34 AM
Rory,

No disrepesct but changing allegience from "Uí Briúin" (Uí Bhriúin = modern Irish form) to Uí Néill does make sense with anything anyone working in the field has written over the last 30 years. First the Uí Briúin only came to power really within what we now call Connacht from the 7th-8th centuries, before that it was the Uí Fiachrach (Uí Fhiachrach) who were dominant among the three Connachta. The Uí nAilello (the third of the "three Connachta") sat between the powerbase of the Uí Briúin and the "North" until their destruction at the end of the 8th century.

For 792, The battle of Ard Maicc Rimi in which the Uí Ailella were overthrown and Conchobor and Airechtach grandsons of Cathal fell. Cathmug son of Flaithbertach, king of Cairpre, and Cormac son of Dub dá Crích, king of Breifne, also fell.

That extract also mentions importanly the "King of Cairpre", this basically reflects the fact that also in general Sligo/Leitrim/Longford/South Donegal region you had the Cenél Cairpre of the Uí Néill.

As Charles-Edwards outlines in his book what is obvioulsy from parsing the data is that it was Cairpre mac Néill with the likes of the Ciannachta who conquered Tara/Brega from Laighin (Leinstermen) during the end of the 5th century. Likewise Mide (-> Midhe -> Mí aka Meath but really "westmeath" in modern county sense) was conquered by the Cenél Fiachach (Fíachu mac Néill).

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/gif/breifne2.gif

To me it sounds like O'Connor (not having read his book) is relying on rather dated views on the Airgíalla.

Rory Cain
09-03-2014, 11:45 PM
Rory,

No disrepesct but changing allegience from "Uí Briúin" (Uí Bhriúin = modern Irish form) to Uí Néill does make sense with anything anyone working in the field has written over the last 30 years. First the Uí Briúin only came to power really within what we now call Connacht from the 7th-8th centuries, before that it was the Uí Fiachrach (Uí Fhiachrach) who were dominant among the three Connachta. The Uí nAilello (the third of the "three Connachta") sat between the powerbase of the Uí Briúin and the "North" until their destruction at the end of the 8th century.

For 792, The battle of Ard Maicc Rimi in which the Uí Ailella were overthrown and Conchobor and Airechtach grandsons of Cathal fell. Cathmug son of Flaithbertach, king of Cairpre, and Cormac son of Dub dá Crích, king of Breifne, also fell.

That extract also mentions importanly the "King of Cairpre", this basically reflects the fact that also in general Sligo/Leitrim/Longford/South Donegal region you had the Cenél Cairpre of the Uí Néill.

As Charles-Edwards outlines in his book what is obvioulsy from parsing the data is that it was Cairpre mac Néill with the likes of the Ciannachta who conquered Tara/Brega from Laighin (Leinstermen) during the end of the 5th century. Likewise Mide (-> Midhe -> Mí aka Meath but really "westmeath" in modern county sense) was conquered by the Cenél Fiachach (Fíachu mac Néill).

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/gif/breifne2.gif

To me it sounds like O'Connor (not having read his book) is relying on rather dated views on the Airgíalla.

Fr O'Connor traces the rivalry right back to the three brothers, Briuin, Fiachra and Niall. So maybe I was trying to condense too big a slice of history so as to stay focussed on the insertion of the Airghialla rather than on later political machinations, not that those are not of any interest. After all, my sept were attached to the Ui Fiachra. They provide an example of a changing political landscape. I personally suspect that DF21 started off in Leinster, where the Seven Septs of Laois remain. However I accept that others prefer an Ulster origin. In any case they were settled at Bruree in Munster until one Trad mac Taoiseach received Tradree, Co Clare as his inheritance. The Tradraige are recorded as Saertuatha Muma (or Munster nobility) in the Book of Ballymote, and as one of the Seven Onaghts (Eoganachts, also meaning Munster nobility). Lughaidh Meann's takeover of Clare from the Connaught regime saw the Tradraige remain loyal to Connaught and having lost Tradree, relocated to the Dubh-ros peninsula of Co Galway as the Tradraige Dubh-ros.

I believe this to be the same sept who were granted a royal Ui Fiachra genealogy as the Cenel Sedna, Sedna being a prince of the Ui Fiachra. On the adoption of surnames, the cheifs of Cenel Sedna bore the surname O Cathain. Their genealogy changed with their political allegiance, according to whether they were serving Munster or Connaught. Which genealogy is correct? Well,we aren't M222 like most of the Ui Fiachra, but then neither are the O'Mahons, also DF21+. As Chiefs of Caonraige (Kenry, Co Limerick), relocated to Caonraige Ardrahan, they suffered a similar relocation but that didn't stop them from emerging as Lords of Ui Fiachra for a time. So I'm certainly still interested in the changing political fortunes, but like to get through that layer to where some of these septs originated. The Oga Peathra sept of the Aidhne also had a Munster origin.

Jon
09-04-2014, 01:02 PM
Do I see it right that there is a split between tribes of the eastern Airghialla region and the west? And that this could reflect a DF21 and L513 split? Given Mike's and others' view of the age of L513, I wonder then if DF21 and others represent later additions, and L513 earlier tribes. I've been reading good old WJ Watson on early Scottish Celtic place names, still a classic since it was written in 1926. He goes into some detail in terms of tribal history. He mentions for instance the so-called 'creenies' of Galloway, which he puts down to Cruithne having migrated over from Ulster. Given that the Ulaid/Cruithne were said to be Brittonic (as far as I know), this might explain the DF21 and L513 make-up of Airghialla. Could the Kingdom of Airghialla feasibly have had Cruithne/Ulaid elements (possibly L513)?

Rory Cain
09-05-2014, 04:06 AM
Do I see it right that there is a split between tribes of the eastern Airghialla region and the west? And that this could reflect a DF21 and L513 split? Given Mike's and others' view of the age of L513, I wonder then if DF21 and others represent later additions, and L513 earlier tribes. I've been reading good old WJ Watson on early Scottish Celtic place names, still a classic since it was written in 1926. He goes into some detail in terms of tribal history. He mentions for instance the so-called 'creenies' of Galloway, which he puts down to Cruithne having migrated over from Ulster. Given that the Ulaid/Cruithne were said to be Brittonic (as far as I know), this might explain the DF21 and L513 make-up of Airghialla. Could the Kingdom of Airghialla feasibly have had Cruithne/Ulaid elements (possibly L513)?

Paul feels that the two Airghialla groups were homegrown while I suspect that they were inserted. Could go either way, I suppose.

The Romans had trouble not only with Scotti (Irish) raiders but also with Atticotti settlers, in the same area you refer to - Galloway. Atticotti comes from Airtheach Tuathach, meaning something like ancient people (I'm sure Paul will translate this better) so could well describe the Cruithme. The term "freebie" appears to support this interpretation.

However I am unaware of anyone successfully identifying L513 with the Cruithne. I understand that I-L161 is more in favour as a potential Cruithne DNA type.

I might be going out on a limb here, maybe L513 could also be open to interpretation as Erainn or Menapi. Same problem again though, that no-0ne has tied these down either, so far asI know.

Rory Cain
09-05-2014, 07:52 AM
["So lets look at some of the southern surnames associated with the S5488 SNP

Corca Loigde
Mongan, Quinn, Nichols, Doyle, Cullen, Kelly, Connor, Loughlin, Shelly, Lydon, Lynch, Rourke, Hamilton, Curry, Rowell (variation of Rowley), Fanning (variation of Finnan), Marrinan (variation of Minehan), Galvin (variation of Gavin)"]

The above is extracted from another thread but perhaps fits better here. The gist of the argument is that the Corcu Loigde are DF21 > S5488. I have had my disagreements with this particular correspondent in the past, but he argued so..er, let's say passionately, that I felt compelled check this theory out.

When I search for Corcu Loigde surnames, I get a completely different list of septs, viz
McAllan, McAnally, McCampbell, McCoffey, McConn, McGlanchy, McIth, McNally, O'Clancy, O'Cornyn, O'Driscoll, O'Flynn, O'Hea and O'Leary. For the most part, these surnames are associated with the traditionalCorcu Loigde territory in southwest Co Cork.

To examine the alleged Corcu Loigde septs I also find little evidence that the alternative list of alleged Corcu Loigde surnames have any connection with the Corcu Loigde, viz.
Mongan - three separate septs in Connaught, Co Tyrone and southwest Munster. The last of these may atleast be in the right area.
Quinn - among the 20 commonest Irish surnames and with five septs spread from the Glens of Antrim to Inchiquin, Co Clare is somewhat problematic.
Nichols - a variant of Nicholl, a Scots surname brought tolster by Scots settlers.
Doyle - among the 20 commonest Irish surnames with a southeast Leinster bias rather than Corcu Loigde territory.
Cullen - among the 100 commonest irish surnames with miltiple origins.
Kelly - 2nd commonest Irish surname with miltiple origins in at least seven counties. A particularly problematic surname as I know from tracing the Seven Septs of Laois, who include a Kelly sept.
Connor - among the 10 commonest Irish surnames with multiple origins in at least five counties.
Loughlin - the McLoughli variant is among the 30 commonest Irish surnames and has multiple origins, to which must be added O'Loughlin.
Shelly - found mainly in Dublin and Tipperary, not Corcu Loigde territory.
Lydon - originally a Galway & Mayo surname, since spread to Clare and elsewhere, including in one of my ancestral lines. If they are Corcu Loigde then I missed that.
Lynch - among the 20 commonest Irish surnames and while strong in Galway likely has miltiple origins.
Rourke - a Breifne sept who claim to be Ui Briuin, not Corcu Loigde.
Hamilton - among the 40 commonest Scots surnames, brought to Ulster by Scots settlers.
Curry - a Scots surname brought to Ulster by Scots settlers, and also a small sept of western Co Clare.
Rowell - our correspondent states this to be a variant of Rowley. If so, Rowley is largely a Co Mayo surname well removed from Corcu Loigde territory.
Fanning - our correspondent states this to be a variant of Finnan. However Fanning is the name of an Anglo-Norman family who settled in Tipperary while Finnan is a north Connaught sept. Neither are in Corcu Loigde territory.
Marrinan - our correspondent states this to be a variant of Minehan. However Marrinan derives from O Manannan in coastal Co Clare while Minehan is a variant of Moynihan or O Muimhneachain from Cork and Kerry.
Galvin - our correspondent states this to be a variant of Gavin. However it dervies from O Gealbhain, the name of a Co Clare sept.

I acknowledge that the anglicisation of Irish surnames was a random and irregular process where anything could happen and sometimes did. For that reason, experienced researchers are cautious about relying upon them, just as they are cautious about relying on surnames which are extremely common, even ubiquitous, and those surnames which are known to have multiple origins. That about sums up the above list. Plus it bears no resemblance to the known list of Corcu Loigde septs. I am not closing the door on the theory that the Corcu Loigde are S5488, but I would be reluctant to propose that on the basis of the above list of surnames.

Dubhthach
09-05-2014, 11:11 AM
Paul feels that the two Airghialla groups were homegrown while I suspect that they were inserted. Could go either way, I suppose.

The Romans had trouble not only with Scotti (Irish) raiders but also with Atticotti settlers, in the same area you refer to - Galloway. Atticotti comes from Airtheach Tuathach, meaning something like ancient people (I'm sure Paul will translate this better) so could well describe the Cruithme. The term "freebie" appears to support this interpretation.

However I am unaware of anyone successfully identifying L513 with the Cruithne. I understand that I-L161 is more in favour as a potential Cruithne DNA type.

I might be going out on a limb here, maybe L513 could also be open to interpretation as Erainn or Menapi. Same problem again though, that no-0ne has tied these down either, so far asI know.

Well no I should clarify, I think they are probably "inserted" but at an earlier stage, so for example sometime after 200BC but before the 4th century. The "potted history" is of course of the Three Colla's conqueoring Eamhain Mhacha in the 4th century AD, of course the site had been basically abandoned since at least the 1st century AD ("Cathedral hill" couple miles away in Armagh city had become a settlement with carbon-dated remains from 1st century AD).

So for example the archaeological dig at Clogher hillfort points to "romano-british" influence in a sea of "native settlement". My feeling thus is the groups that became the Airgíalla were a tributary military grouping who basically centered on the southern area of Ulster. Akin to how McSweeney's and other Gallowglasses groups were given territory (in the likes of Donegal) during middle ages.

They subsequently "switched sides" probably during the late 6th/early 7th century, in which case you see domination by the Uí Néill of the "Kingship of Tara" (aka the "quasi" high-kingship), before this their "tributary overlods" were probably the Ulaidh (aka. Dál Fiatach).

The "Cruithne" also seem to be military tributary power at the start, though as the Dál Fiatach decline in 7th/8th century you see the Dál nAraidi (the main "dynasts" among the "Cruithne") claim the over kingship of the Ulaidh, so much so that they started to claim that they were the "True Ulstermen" and basically grab the genealogy. During this time the Dál nAraidi basically "preyed" on Dál Riata (northern Antrim) and destroyed the Dál Riata as a power in Ireland. Subsequently the Dál Fiatach had a revival and regained the "overlordship" of the Ulaidh (by this stage "Uladh" was restricted to modern Antrim/Down), which they held until John de Courcy invaded and created the "Earldom of Ulster" in the late 12th/early 13th century.

Anyways I think we should caution about trying to say one haplogroup represents a "tribal group" in the pre-christian period. What we see post the 5th century are dynastical groups based on powerfull male lineages. In a pre-christian environment it's quite possible that one lineage mightn't have been so dominant in a "tribal group" (particulary in event of elected kingship not based on genealogy).

Dubhthach
09-06-2014, 12:26 PM
Just some photo's I've taken from "Early Chritian Ireland" (I don't have a scanner)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/airgialla_1.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/airgialla_2.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/airgialla_3.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/airgialla_4.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/airgialla_5.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/airgialla_6.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/airgialla_7.jpg

-Paul

Rory Cain
09-07-2014, 11:24 PM
To me it sounds like O'Connor (not having read his book) is relying on rather dated views on the Airgíalla.

I'm not claiming to be expert in this area, but couldn't the same be said of "Early Christian Ireland"?

- I have not read the whole book, but this section refers to the Ui Niall of Tara just sounds uneasuly like the author accepts the Tara myth, which I thought was descredited some decades ago.

- In this section at least the author also sounded somewhat credulous with respect to the Three Collas pedigree, which many believe to be a fabrication. Maybe he arrives at that point later in the book?

The timeframe is about right though, the period in which the Ciannacta won Brega for Cormac Mac Art following the Battle of Cath Crinna; the planting of the Oga Beathra from Mallow, Co Cork, into Aidhne, Co Galway, as a home guard for the Ui Fiachra regime while other septs were at the front; the planting of the Tradraige from Munster into Co Clare probably for similar reasons. Quite possibly too, the period in which those Ciannachta who became the Airghialla entered the service of the Connachta?

Rory

Dubhthach
09-27-2014, 10:45 AM
Haven't manage to get back to this thread for last couple weeks (my son was starting school, was back at work after holidays etc.)

Anyways

1. There's a difference between the "mythical" kingship of Tara and the actual historic kingship of Tara. The mythical one is that as espoused in the pseduo-history's with reards to an ever lasting "high kingship" all the way back to the fake Míl. Versus the actual historical kingship of Tara that existed once the Uí Néill had conqueored Mide and Brega from the Laighin. This is specifically both the Kingdom of the "Southern Uí Néill" as well as the concept of overlodship of Leath Cuinn. Thus the pseduo-history was written in context of an actual existing kingship in period 500 onwards.

2. In section above he shows how the Airgíalla connection is faked, you can't be of both gens Uais and Conn for example. Let alone the mythical background of the Mugdorna connecting them both to the Cruithne and Ulaidh.

Anyways here's the chapter with regards to the Rise of the Uí Néill

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_01.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_02.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_03.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_04.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_05.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_06.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_07.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_08.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_09.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_10.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_11.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_12.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_13.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_14.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_15.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_16.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_17.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_18.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_19.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_20.jpeg

Dubhthach
09-27-2014, 10:45 AM
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_21.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_22.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_23.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_24.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_25.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_26.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_27.jpeg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/ui_neill_28.jpeg

Rory Cain
10-02-2014, 11:27 PM
"Early Christian Ireland" corresponds with O'Connor's "Hand of History" in several respects:
- the politics of an Ui Niall regime lately arrived in the Midlands (including Tara) from Connaught using propaganda to justify it's position,
- the Ui Niall and Ui Fiachra alliance against the Ui Briuin,
- the initial Ui Niall conquests as leaders of Confederati or fianna rather than as leaders (kings) of their own kingdoms
- the southeast to northwest distribution of these fianna on their newly won sword lands.
- the probable origin of these fianna from what is now North Munster although it may have been Leinster previously,

Plus "Early Christian Ireland" is more precise with chronology, an aspect O'Connor neglects because as he says, in Irish history dates are whatever you want to make them. A bit cynical but not without justification!

jaysgr8
11-24-2014, 08:33 AM
One of the seven clans who claim descent from King Kenneth McAlpin:

MacDuffee / McAfee Clan (MacFie):
McAfee and McDuffee are interchangeable surnames in both Scotland and Northern Ireland.
"Pro Rege"

FTDNA Kit No. H1084; YSEQ DNA Customer No. 169, GENO 2.0

Tested below:

CTS11722 (L1065)+>CTS7030+>CTS6838+>FGC10125+
>FGC10117-

Terminal SNP FGC10125+

Islay, Co. Argyll, Scotland>Ballymagarry, Dunluce Parish, Co. Antrim, N. Ireland>Wayne Co, Ohio, USA

Rory Cain
11-26-2014, 08:24 PM
One of the seven clans who claim descent from King Kenneth McAlpin:

MacDuffee / McAfee Clan (MacFie):
McAfee and McDuffee are interchangeable surnames in both Scotland and Northern Ireland.
"Pro Rege"

FTDNA Kit No. H1084; YSEQ DNA Customer No. 169, GENO 2.0

Tested below:

CTS11722 (L1065)+>CTS7030+>CTS6838+>FGC10125+
>FGC10117-

Terminal SNP FGC10125+

Islay, Co. Argyll, Scotland>Ballymagarry, Dunluce Parish, Co. Antrim, N. Ireland>Wayne Co, Ohio, USA

Is this consistent with other alleged branches of Siol Ailpin, e.g.
Grant
MacAlpine
MacGregor
Mackinnon
MacNab
Macquarie?

I descend maternally from two of the above. Not sure there is much commonality and consistency though, between the alleged branches of this alleged clan.

Rory Cain
11-29-2014, 04:58 AM
Perhaps "jaysgr8" didn't find much evidence of DNA shared in common by the supposed Siol Ailpin clans. To check that nothing much had changed since I last poked, I looked again. We have:
Grant, whose chiefs are R-DF19 > DF88.
McAlpine, R-M269 and Haplogroup I.
MacDuffie, R-M269 and R-CTS11722
Macgregor, R-M269 and R-CTS11722
MacKinnon, R-M269 and the admin thinks R-PF5236 to be significant.
McNabb, R-M269
MacQuarrie, R-M269

Those project members and project admins who have not yet discovered SNP testing result in R-M269 being the main SNP listed. The only other sept of Siol Ailpin who appears to share R-CTS11722 with MacDuffie is Macgregor.

Whether the estimated coalescence date of these two sets of R-CTS11722 agrees with the timeframe of the alleged Siol Ailpin pedigree is another matter.

J Man
11-29-2014, 04:46 PM
Interesting stuff. I only have a few names in my tree that look to be of old true Irish Celtic origins. One is O'Neill and the other is Argue. My ggg grandmother on my maternal grandfather's side was an O'Neill and according to family legend she descended from the Earl of Tyrone but indeed that may just be a legend.

Rory Cain
12-12-2014, 10:58 AM
Interesting stuff. I only have a few names in my tree that look to be of old true Irish Celtic origins. One is O'Neill and the other is Argue. My ggg grandmother on my maternal grandfather's side was an O'Neill and according to family legend she descended from the Earl of Tyrone but indeed that may just be a legend.

The bottom line is that you may never find the evidence to either prove or disprove this particular family legend. Particularly in Ireland where the genealogical records are very sparse indeed. That is of course why we turn to DNA. Not sure that DNA will help you either. Y-DNA and mtDNA are not the appropriate tools except for the direct male and direct female lines, and the timeframe seems a mite too remote for atDNA to produce anything conclusive.

Cherish your family claim if you wish. It appears unlikely that anyone can prove your family wrong.

Rory Cain
01-02-2015, 06:23 AM
The original aim of this thread to track and DNA test royal and chiefly lines appears to have been overly ambitious. Few royal and chiefly lines have tested and fewer still have turned out to be DF21+ as the originator of this thread might have wished. Me too. The exceptions are McCarthy Reagh and O'Donoghue Mor, both DF21+.

We might have to realign our sights for the more realistic aim of identifying the DNA of genetic groupings, as has been done with the Airghialla and Seven Septs of Lapis, or geographic regions as has been done with the DF21 hotspot running from Co Laois through to East Galway. Indeed, this may well be richer and more rewarding that chief-hunting anyway.

oneillabu
01-11-2015, 02:02 PM
It appears that Seamas has moved away from his earlier theory of a Egyptian Coptic migration establishing the Celtic Church, a variant one supposes on the Milesian myth of invasions from the Greek and Eqyptian worlds. I think fellow correspondent rms2 brought some reality to that discussion.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03qkzbp/sacred-wonders-of-britain-episode-3

Here are some quotes from Dr Ian Bradley on the BBC2 Scotland program on Iona (link above)

The incredible thing about the ethos of St Columba was that it was formulated not by monks in Ireland but much farther afield in Egypt

Irish monasticism really derives from the desert monasticism of Egypt and Sinia and Palestine in the third century and fouth century. The Irish monks emulated the Coptic Church.

We know that Egyptian Monks land in Ireland in the fifth century


And you wonder why I abandoned this thread, maybe the monks joined the Ui Bairrche which mysteriously vanished from this forum once I was vanquished by the "terminator's" angel on his shoulder.

Rory Cain
01-12-2015, 02:37 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03qkzbp/sacred-wonders-of-britain-episode-3

Here are some quotes from Dr Ian Bradley on the BBC2 Scotland program on Iona (link above)

The incredible thing about the ethos of St Columba was that it was formulated not by monks in Ireland but much farther afield in Egypt

Irish monasticism really derives from the desert monasticism of Egypt and Sinia and Palestine in the third century and fouth century. The Irish monks emulated the Coptic Church.

We know that Egyptian Monks land in Ireland in the fifth century


And you wonder why I abandoned this thread, maybe the monks joined the Ui Bairrche which mysteriously vanished from this forum once I was vanquished by the "terminator's" angel on his shoulder.

I have no prblems with that. The eastern churches have a number of similarities with the celtic church, not the least being more collegiate and less hierarchical than the Roman model. If your purpose is to continue old fights, I am not much interested in that. You might consider leaving that behind and moving forward. As has been said elsewhere, the SNP tsunami has been overwhelming and there would be a role for you if you wish to adopt a forward-looking approach.

Your suggestion that Mike W works for me is quite incorrect. Last time we discussed the FTDNA Ytree Mike was a defender of it, whereas I share your view about its inadequacy and obsolescence. i am not going to join you in blaming David Reynolds for it though. That is not fair. Instead of looking to blame others, why not do something positive and fix it? We presently have the most responsive ISOGG rep that I can recall working with in Charles Fueston. As an S5488 guy, you can probably ID many S5488+ SNPs that need to be submitted to ISOGG. There is no conspiracy to work against you on this, no CIA, no KGB. Provided you exercise a little self-discipline and stick to the task and avoid personal attacks, whatever you put to Charles will go on the ytree, with supporting evidence per the ISOGG criteria.

You might be surprised how much you can achieve with a positive approach.

oneillabu
01-12-2015, 08:09 PM
I have no prblems with that. The eastern churches have a number of similarities with the celtic church, not the least being more collegiate and less hierarchical than the Roman model

That’s strange, a complete u-turn on your part in fact, here are some of your comments

rms2 has already dealt with most of Seamas' Coptic Egyptian theory earlier and Seamas simply restating the same material adds nothing of value.
It is abundantly clear to me who is the more scholarly and well read out of Seamas and Alan, or rms2. I'll stick with Alan and rms2.

So what did rms2 have to say on the Egyptian and Celtic Church similarities

Believe what you wish, but I am fairly familiar with Church history. It isn't likely Egyptian Copts had much if anything to do with Irish Christianity.

The Egyptians pretty much began the practice of Christian monasticism, so there is a certain amount of Egyptian influence throughout the older churches, but it is very early influence, long before Ireland converted.

There is no evidence, as far as I know, of the Monophysite heresy ever making anappearance in Ireland, as surely it would had the Copts any real influence there.


Your suggestion that Mike W works for me is quite incorrect.

This is the second forum I was barred from over standing up to you and your outlandish unsubstantiated theories, you simply cannot just invent theories like your Ui Baricche and then present them as actual fact with statements such as “The Northern British Brigante / Ui Bairche oriigin of DF21 is one of the few things in DNA we can take as an actual certainty” and not be challenged on it. What I do find disturbing is when you had achieved your goal of getting me kicked off the forum you then abandon your Brigante / Ui Bairrche theory and even remove it from the DF21 section of the O’Cathain project group; to me this was a setup job pure and simple.


You might consider leaving that behind and moving forward. As has been said elsewhere, the SNP tsunami has been overwhelming and there would be a role for you if you wish to adopt a forward-looking approach.

First of all as I stated before there are many members of the DF21 that are there because of my research, only yesterday another person ordered a DF21 test on my recommendation however I recommended DF21 and not S5488 because of what happened with McKissick (N121928) who was told he was S5488 negative and removed from the S5488 group. Their STR pattern did not reflect this so I contacted them about testing for S5488 again and just over a week later they were told they were S5488+, THIS IS HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS because there is no way they could be tested in this short time frame unless they were already S5488+ and someone had marked them otherwise.

On the DF21 section of the FTDNA Ytree 95% of the SNP’s are from your own FGC3903 SNP cluster and you say that Mike W supports this and you oppose it even though it reflects what the DF21 project has become under your stewardship with three out of current four Administrators all coming from this FGC3903 SNP cluster. The fourth administrator is from the Little Scots Cluster leaving no representation for S5488 cluster even though it is nearly as old as DF21 itself.

The excellent researcher Peter Biggins who looks after both the S971 Clan Colla and S5488 Ely O’Carroll projects WAS REFUSED when he applied to become an administrator of the DF21 project even though he was representing two groups, I wonder why this was.


i am not going to join you in blaming David Reynolds for it though. That is not fair.

What is not fair is twisting things, I have never had nothing but the utmost of praise for David Reynolds and what he achieved with the DF21 project in such a short timeframe was staggering, the man is an absolute Gentleman, on many occasions I asked him to contact people I had identified as DF21 candidates and he always delivered. Any criticism I have is of the current regime, namely you, if I sent you a request to contact someone I would have serious doubts that the message would ever be relayed, especially if they had an Irish surname that would not suit your agenda.


Provided you exercise a little self-discipline and stick to the task and avoid personal attacks, whatever you put to Charles will go on the ytree, with supporting evidence per the ISOGG criteria.

The S7200 SNP is upstream of L720 which has met the criteria a long time ago so there is no reason why this SNP test should not be available from FTDNA, I bet if a new FGC3903 SNP was discovered it would available in no time, I sent complaints to FTDNA about the lack of availability of a test for S5488 and I fully believe that to be the reason why the test is now available.


There is no conspiracy to work against you on this, no CIA, no KGB.
You might be surprised how much you can achieve with a positive approach.

No but what there is are lots of people with different agendas who manipulate the grouping of results to reflect their interests and refuse to contact people about testing for SNP’s if the result may threaten their established positions which are taken as Gospel by most people regardless of the lack of corroborating evidence.

I could name project groups, individual administrators and fill page after page with examples but what is the point, the pity is that we have at our disposal the most pure form of history ever used, history that does not tell lies or have political agendas or otherwise but simply gives us a window back to our ancient past.

What is needed are people of integrity and honesty to carry out unbiased interpretation of the ever increasing stream of SNP information free of any personal agendas which unfortunately has been absent to date, lets hope the new year will bring about changes in this regard but more project administrators dealing with individual groups is probably the only way this will change.

Rory Cain
01-12-2015, 11:26 PM
This is the second forum I was barred from over standing up to you ...



Sure, I remember you attacking me on another forum. Like old veterans often do, I chose to walk away from a fight and left that forum and came to Anthrogenica so I had no idea that you were expelled. Then you found me again, here on Anthrogenica, and got yourself expelled again. Strange how it's always everyone else's fault though, and you can never take any responsibility. Now you want to start Round 3? It was said of the Ancien Regime that they "had learned nothing and forgotten nothing." Your posts sound a lot like that.

Your continued attacks on David Reynolds are earning you no friends. It is obvious that you are referring to L626 and L625 being on the FTDNA Ytree and therefore it is obvious that you are attacking David, although what David has ever done to you I do not know, even by your own admission. It's no secret that L626 is David and his cousin, while L625 is David and his brother. As Charles has already (politely) said, stop attacking David for being proactive. If you want your SNPs on the Ytree then submit them.

The ball is in your court. You seem to see yourself as some sort of frustrated genius. Get and there and be a genius. Do something positive for the S5488 community if you are capable of that. The project admins who you attack have day jobs and other tasks as admins. It's a golden opportunity for you to make the S5488 section of the ytree the most up to date in all of ISOGG.

Rory Cain
01-14-2015, 05:15 AM
The excellent researcher Peter Biggins who looks after both the S971 Clan Colla and S5488 Ely O’Carroll projects WAS REFUSED when he applied to become an administrator of the DF21 project even though he was representing two groups, I wonder why this was.



The events regarding Peter Biggins occurred before the time of any of the present admins of the R-DF21 Project,back in David Reynolds' time. Peter Biggins remembers it though, and said:

"I have not expressed an interest to anyone, except that in 2012 I
talked to FTDNA about taking over from Dave Reynolds because he
seemed to be unable to work on the project. At the last minute, Dave
resurfaced, and there was no need for my involvement."

Oneillabu's misguided version appears to be yet another unfounded personal attack on David Reynolds, the then admin of this project. Weasel words are used instead of actually naming David, but he was the administrator. Note that in this very different version to that of oneillabu, there is no formal application, and no suggestion whatsoever of the project admin, David, refusing Peter's application. For whatever reason, David is not here to defend himself, which makes these continued attacks unmanly at best.

The good news is that in refuting oneillabu's misinformation, we discovered that Peter Biggins is interested in joining this project as a co-admin, despite his heavy workload with other projects. We immediately issued a formal invitation before Peter could change his mind, which Peter accepted. He will have particular responsibility for S971 (aka Airghialla) and S5488 (Ely Carroll et. al.). Welcome, Peter.

oneillabu
01-14-2015, 08:13 PM
The good news is that in refuting oneillabu's misinformation, we discovered that Peter Biggins is interested in joining this project as a co-admin, despite his heavy workload with other projects. We immediately issued a formal invitation before Peter could change his mind, which Peter accepted. He will have particular responsibility for S971 (aka Airghialla) and S5488 (Ely Carroll et. al.). Welcome, Peter.

There you go, problem solved in one fell swoop. Now the substantial S5488 group have an excellent representative in Peter Biggins and all of the DF21 people will benefit and I will certainly help him in any way I can. This could have been done a long time ago however it is a welcome development and maybe the BBC Scotland program on the Great man St Columba has helped us all to move us forward in the search for the truth so I am prepared to bury the hatchet for the sake of the project.

If you think the Egyptian connection is the only thing I am right about then you are very much mistaken, it was from the Seven Septs of Laois that the legendary Rory OG O'Moore stemmed and DF21 will prove to be the home of the Irish Chieftains, if you look at the territory of the O'Carrolls of Ely you will see that it stems from the same location as the Muscraige who were related to the Corca Laidhe and it was from these that the Dal Riada and Dal Fiatach sprung. According to McNeil the Dal nAiridhe were of the same ancient stock as the Dal Riada and the Seven Septs of Laois are from this line so this is very promising, common early Munster origins with a cliff face type migration from Irish to Scottish with S7200, incidentally the surname Rogers and McRory both stem from the Lord of the Isles MacDonalds and have you noticed that we have both a Rogers and McRory with a GD of 7 between them matching a MacDonald in the S7200 cluster, and this is not just one MacDonald because I have up to 20 (including Septs) in my database. So much progress can be made if we work as a unit and respect each others contributions so no more "So called O'Carrolls of Ely" stuff please and maybe then I will not have the need to react with unpleasant exchanges that neither of us want.

http://www.peterspioneers.com/elycarroll.htm
http://www.peterspioneers.com/colla.htm

Rory Cain
01-15-2015, 02:58 AM
There you go, problem solved in one fell swoop. Now the substantial S5488 group have an excellent representative in Peter Biggins and all of the DF21 people will benefit and I will certainly help him in any way I can. This could have been done a long time ago however it is a welcome development and maybe the BBC Scotland program on the Great man St Columba has helped us all to move us forward in the search for the truth so I am prepared to bury the hatchet for the sake of the project.

If you think the Egyptian connection is the only thing I am right about then you are very much mistaken, it was from the Seven Septs of Laois that the legendary Rory OG O'Moore stemmed and DF21 will prove to be the home of the Irish Chieftains, if you look at the territory of the O'Carrolls of Ely you will see that it stems from the same location as the Muscraige who were related to the Corca Laidhe and it was from these that the Dal Riada and Dal Fiatach sprung. According to McNeil the Dal nAiridhe were of the same ancient stock as the Dal Riada and the Seven Septs of Laois are from this line so this is very promising, common early Munster origins with a cliff face type migration from Irish to Scottish with S7200, incidentally the surname Rogers and McRory both stem from the Lord of the Isles MacDonalds and have you noticed that we have both a Rogers and McRory with a GD of 7 between them matching a MacDonald in the S7200 cluster, and this is not just one MacDonald because I have up to 20 (including Septs) in my database. So much progress can be made if we work as a unit and respect each others contributions so no more "So called O'Carrolls of Ely" stuff please and maybe then I will not have the need to react with unpleasant exchanges that neither of us want.

http://www.peterspioneers.com/elycarroll.htm
http://www.peterspioneers.com/colla.htm

Yes, you are quite right about a DF21+ hotspot in Laois & Bri Eile. You might recall that i was the first to identify the Seven Septs of Laois with this hotspot, so it would appear that we have been in agreement on this all along. In fact this hotspot extends even further, from Co Laois right through Bri Eili into east Co Galway where we have L130, L658, much of S5456, about half of Z16539, and perhaps about half of L1336. Tribally, in addition to the Seven Septs of Laois and Ely O'Carroll we should perhaps look at the Ui Ciaran also. Their genealogy attaches them to the Ely O'Carroll, and the chiefly family's surname O'Meagher can be anglicised Meagher, Maher, Marr, Meeker, which appear in the L1336 sub-group. The L1336 in east Galway might well have originated from Ikerrin, Co Tipperary, named after the Ui Ciaran.

You would have to provide some evidence regarding the Muscraige, Corca Laidhe, Dal Riada, Dal Faitach and Dal nAraidhe. Something for you to work on, perhaps? It may well be a worthwhile project. So feel free to convince the rest of us. I'll ignore the threat of you reacting with further unpleasant exchanges should I dare to have my own opinion on any subject. It would be better had you not said that and simply left it with burying the hatchet for the sake of the project, which I will do too. Peter has a number of S5488 research and administrative tasks to deal with so I am sure that he will be grateful for any assistance that you can offer.

omaolchonaire
02-19-2015, 10:26 PM
The best later works of Irish history were made by devout Christians, mostly prior to the theory of evolution. So unless creationism is a part of your "scientific" beliefs, I would be careful quoting the works of late mediaeval bards, or particularly esteemed historians like O'Flaherty, O'Rahilly, or Charles O'Connor, as their works were inherently tainted by a belief that the world was created approximately 6000 years ago, long after the original settlement of Ireland. Considering Tara was built only 1000-1500 years after "creation" these types of ideological Christian interpretations pose numerous problems.

omaolchonaire
02-19-2015, 10:33 PM
I believe five critical groups to establishing the greater history of DF-21 would be the Mac Lochlainns of the Burren, County Clare, the O'Connors of Kerry, the Kearneys/Foxes (an tSionnach) of Uí Maine, the O'Farrells, and the O'Loingseach (Lynch) of Ulster. All of whom should be related to the Seven Septs of Laois (descendants of the Ulster warrior Conall Cearnach).

omaolchonaire
02-19-2015, 10:35 PM
I am starting to believe Ely Carroll are the Erainn, and much of O'Neill Abu's most recent post to be spot on, although I definitely don't agree with all his interpretations.

Rory Cain
02-23-2015, 09:07 PM
I believe five critical groups to establishing the greater history of DF-21 would be the Mac Lochlainns of the Burren, County Clare, the O'Connors of Kerry, the Kearneys/Foxes (an tSionnach) of Uí Maine, the O'Farrells, and the O'Loingseach (Lynch) of Ulster. All of whom should be related to the Seven Septs of Laois (descendants of the Ulster warrior Conall Cearnach).

I agree that those Septs would be critical to proving the "traditional" descents of those tribes, if only those traditional descents were true. Finding an adequate size DNA sample may be the problem. From the samples Presently available, nothing stands put as supporting the alleged descent of those Septs. Perhaps the opposite.

Rory Cain
02-23-2015, 09:17 PM
I am starting to believe Ely Carroll are the Erainn, and much of O'Neill Abu's most recent post to be spot on, although I definitely don't agree with all his interpretations.

If by Erainn you mean in the broader sense, and not just the Iverni sept of southwest Ireland, then oneillabu may well be right. DF21 appears to be Ca 4000 years old with almost no Continental representation. Almost exclusively Isles.

Some DF21 lacks evidence of a long residence in any particular place. The Eli have a long presence in the region disputed by Leinster and Munster, but near enough to Connaught to have powerful patrons.

So like you I am starting to consider this now that the age and the Isles residency of DF21 has grown from earlier predictions. It needs more support from other DF21 groupings sharing that history. But it's potentially a start.

Rory Cain
03-01-2015, 12:54 AM
To follow up on oneillabu and omailchonaire's throughts re the Erainn, I borrow from Jean's Irish settlement model on the thread Ancient Celt from Hinxton DF21+ Z246+ where Jean proposes the following waves:

8,000-7,000 BC Mesolithic hunter-gatherers via Britain
3,800-3,700 BC Neolithic farmers
2400 BC Copper Age bell beaker folks from Portugal via the Atlantic coast to Brittany then the Isles
2200 BC Bronze Age bell beaker folks from the Rhine route to the Isles
300 BC Iron Age La Tene influence in the northern 2/3rds of ireland
100 BC Belgae from the Continent or via Britain
71-73 AD Brigantes from Britain
79-80 AD Domnonii from southern Scotland or from Cornwall & Devon at an unknown time
500 AD Cruithne from Britain, 1st mentioned in Irish Annals 552 AD

The question might be, where are the Erainn in this model? It seems a comprehensive model so the Erainn are likely to be there somewhere, just not identified as such. If oneillabu and omailchonaire are right about DF21 being Erainn, or part of the Erainn, then given that DF21 is almost exclusively Isles, and currently dated at about 4,000 ybp, it appears that we should be looking at about the Copper Age or Bronze Age. Jean figures arrivals in this period to be bell beaker folks, with a Copper Age wave from Iberia and a Bronze Age wave from the Rhine route through Gaul and/or Belgica to the Isles. Were they the Erainn?

There is a disconnect between this period and the later period of the Connacht, Eoganacht, Ulaid, Laigin etc with their fabricated pedigrees to which we now know DF21+ septs were attached for political purposes. Thus the Eili were attached to the Eoganacht pedigree, the Airghialla to the Ui Maine and Ui Niall pedigrees, the Seven Septs of Laois to the Clanna Rory of Ulster (although McEvoy was made to be Airghialla, and Devoy to be Laighin). I looked at the Clanna Rory for omailchonaire but found no DNA evidence of a shared descent with the Seven Septs of Laois. If you guys believe Ely O'Carroll is Erainn, should be be looking at Ely O'Carroll's alleged connection to the Eoganacht dynasty instead? The Eoganacht are associated geographically with the territory of the Erainn.

Rory Cain
03-29-2015, 05:09 AM
I believe five critical groups to establishing the greater history of DF-21 would be the Mac Lochlainns of the Burren, County Clare, the O'Connors of Kerry, the Kearneys/Foxes (an tSionnach) of Uí Maine, the O'Farrells, and the O'Loingseach (Lynch) of Ulster. All of whom should be related to the Seven Septs of Laois (descendants of the Ulster warrior Conall Cearnach).

aughty.org has on-line "A History of the Clanna Rory" by Richard F. Cronnelly. His expanded list is thus:

The Magennices
„ O’Mores
„ O’Cronnellys
,, O’Dugans
,, O’Morans
„ O’Lennans ,, O’Casans
„ M‘Gowans or Smiths
„ M‘Wards
,, M‘Scanlans „ O’Kennys ,, O’Lawlors „ O’Lynches
,, O’Mannions
,, Maginns
„ M‘Colreavys or Grays ,, M‘Cartans
„ O‘Carelons
„ O‘Conors-Kerry
„ O‘Conors-Corc
,, O’Loghlens-Burren

Let
O‘Kielys
M‘Shanlys
M‘Priors
O‘Ferrals
O‘Roddys
M‘Finvars or Gaynors M‘Cormick
M‘Dorchys
M‘Raghnaills or Reynolds O’Quins
O’Mulveys
O’Neidhes
O’Conarys
O’Diochallas
O’Maoletighs
M‘Keoghs
O’Beices
M‘Maolisaa
O‘Dugans
O‘Coscridhs
M‘Rory or Rodgers Corca-Dallan
Corca-Aulim
Dal-Confinn
Ciarruighe Loch an Airneagh Ciarruighe Ae, or Ai, or Nao Ciarruighe Airteach
Cinel Buine
Gailenga
Ui liodan
Owny Deisceart Eoganacht Aire Cliach O‘Drennans M‘Dubhains, or Duans

Some names associated with the Six Sogains of Tyaquin Barony, Co Galway, traditionally said to be Cruithne, appear on this list. Some of the same surnames appear in the R-DF21 Project. Some appear in R-L130, some in Z16539. omaolchonaire may have been onto something.

Jon
04-18-2015, 06:40 PM
Hi All,

I've been trawling through the L513 groups (as is my want!)...still breaking my head trying to figure out what links the 'big families' in this HG. O'Shea's down in Kerry, Maguires in Fermanagh, then over to a core Mackenzie group in Scotland as well as the L193 families spread over western Scotland. Shared insular Celtic seems likely - how about the ancient Erainn? The line of Conaire Mor? Would cover the Erainn groups down in Munster, as well as possibly link up with Ulster groupings, and even make sense of the Scottish lines (the House of Dunkeld has long claimed descent from the Sil Conairi). Pure, pure speculation...but fun, and who knows, there may be truth to it as well. Just throwing it out there!

Jon

Dubhthach
04-18-2015, 07:02 PM
Just remember that Conaire Mór is a semi-mythical character, genealogical claims of links to such men are nearly equivalent to Greek families claiming descent from Perseus ;)

I do think there isn't enough L513 showing up in munster, Maguire genealogy puts them as Aírgialla which have false genealogy connecting them to Dál Cuinn (Conn of the Hundred battles), what seems obvious is that from archaeology there are links from general Aírgialla area into Northern Britain.

oneillabu
04-18-2015, 08:04 PM
Just remember that Conaire Mór is a semi-mythical character, genealogical claims of links to such men are nearly equivalent to Greek families claiming descent from Perseus ;)

Someone built and used the Royal sites of Cruachain, Eamhain Macha and Tara from a very early time, it is interesting how you consider Conn of the Hundred battles not to be semi-mythical like you say Conaire Mor is but it is likely that this entire pedigree from Cairenn the alleged second wife of Niall of the Nine hostages is a ninth century fabrication linking the new arrivals to a fictitious Conn of the hundred battles, note how Cairenn is given a British origin.

The real question is how did the Cineal Eoghain seize the High Kingship from the Uladh in the ninth Century which is something that they failed to do for Centuries. There are some historians who consider that the both the Cineal Connaill and Cineal Eoghain were Uladh in origin and the Uladh originated from the Corca Laidhe which would mean that Niall of the Nine hostages may have been from this group, this would mean that the true descendents of Niall of the Nine hostages are the Ui Maine and the entire line that spawned the surnames used in the Trinity M222 findings is fictitious, this theory is supported by the Genetic distances between these which show a common ancestor from around the ninth Century.

Jon
04-18-2015, 08:26 PM
According to the statistical visuals on Gerard Corcoran's excellent L21 pin page, L513 is the 2nd most frequent subclade of L21 in Ireland (after DF49 of course). Which makes me think that it can't all be down to 17th century Ulster settlement...O'Shea caught my eye as L513 does seem to constitute the core of the surname, in their heartlands of Kerry. And despite being found throughout the UK, the hotspots are still Scotland and Ireland as far as I can see. Maybe I'm just jealous at not being able to claim descent from a mediaeval Irish Dynast :) One day.... ;)

Dubhthach
04-18-2015, 11:09 PM
Someone built and used the Royal sites of Cruachain, Eamhain Macha and Tara from a very early time, it is interesting how you consider Conn of the Hundred battles not to be semi-mythical like you say Conaire Mor is but it is likely that this entire pedigree from Cairenn the alleged second wife of Niall of the Nine hostages is a ninth century fabrication linking the new arrivals to a fictitious Conn of the hundred battles, note how Cairenn is given a British origin.

The real question is how did the Cineal Eoghain seize the High Kingship from the Uladh in the ninth Century which is something that they failed to do for Centuries. There are some historians who consider that the both the Cineal Connaill and Cineal Eoghain were Uladh in origin and the Uladh originated from the Corca Laidhe which would mean that Niall of the Nine hostages may have been from this group, this would mean that the true descendents of Niall of the Nine hostages are the Ui Maine and the entire line that spawned the surnames used in the Trinity M222 findings is fictitious, this theory is supported by the Genetic distances between these which show a common ancestor from around the ninth Century.

Where did I claim that Conn of the hundred battles was real? Heck I'd have reservations about Níall himself, as most he was the father of Coirpre and Fiacha who probably acomplished alot more than what is claimed for Níall, but obviously they gotten written out of history in the 8th century (Well seriously sideline) as for the Uí Maine there genealogy claims Aírgialla connections but unlike the Aírgialla they are neither DF21 or L513 instead we see Z2961 show up in the Kelly senior line.

Of course at least we know that the O'Conor Don is M222 given the testing of a close male relative of his. This ties in with A259 showing up time and time again among the Uí Briúin surnames.

Rory Cain
04-20-2015, 06:54 AM
Where did I claim that Conn of the hundred battles was real? Heck I'd have reservations about Níall himself, as most he was the father of Coirpre and Fiacha who probably acomplished alot more than what is claimed for Níall, but obviously they gotten written out of history in the 8th century (Well seriously sideline) as for the Uí Maine there genealogy claims Aírgialla connections but unlike the Aírgialla they are neither DF21 or L513 instead we see Z2961 show up in the Kelly senior line.

Of course at least we know that the O'Conor Don is M222 given the testing of a close male relative of his. This ties in with A259 showing up time and time again among the Uí Briúin surnames.

I would have to agee that the O'Conor Don M222+ result is quite persuasive, along with other Uí Briúin, Ui Fiachra & Ui Niall surnames in the main showing up M222+. From that start-point, however, a number of other genealogoes which may have been artificially attached to three three dynasties start to unravel- my own sept amongst them. The O'Cathains of Ceneal sedna, allegedly a branch of the Ui Fiachra Aidhne, are not M222+ but DF21+ >> L658. Their ancestor Sedna was allegedly a brother of Eoghain Aidhne. There is a hint though that he may have been of Clan Corc, descended from Fergus mac Rossa mac Rory, some of whose other descendants are DF21, although other clades than L658.

Dubhthach
04-21-2015, 09:20 AM
I would have to agee that the O'Conor Don M222+ result is quite persuasive, along with other Uí Briúin, Ui Fiachra & Ui Niall surnames in the main showing up M222+. From that start-point, however, a number of other genealogoes which may have been artificially attached to three three dynasties start to unravel- my own sept amongst them. The O'Cathains of Ceneal sedna, allegedly a branch of the Ui Fiachra Aidhne, are not M222+ but DF21+ >> L658. Their ancestor Sedna was allegedly a brother of Eoghain Aidhne. There is a hint though that he may have been of Clan Corc, descended from Fergus mac Rossa mac Rory, some of whose other descendants are DF21, although other clades than L658.

Oh indeed, well the prime example of such attachments is that of the Aírgialla where the "Three Colla's" (which appear to be nothing more than a literary creation) are attached into the "Dál Cuinn" lineage. The fact that we see DF21 (Aírgialla I cluster) and L513 (Aírgialla II cluster) seems to negate this:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/airgialla_4.jpg

Another major case of it is that of the Dál gCais and the Eoghanachta, the genealogy append their "mythical ancestor" Cormac Cas as a brother of Eogain Mór (equally mythical if ye ask me!). Of course the fact that Baron Inchiquin ("The O'Brien") has done BigY testing and is confirmed L226+ (Z253) and alot of Eoghanachta surnames show up as CTS4466+ kinda proves this not to be case (as the historians have argued for years anyways)

Jon
04-21-2015, 01:11 PM
Hi Guys,
I'm trying to mug up on Irish history, as it seems the clan systems there were different to those I've read about in Scotland. I read that the most recent thinking on the Airgialla suggests that it was a confederation of (nine?) kingdoms, all of which were unrelated, and from whose lines the rulers came and interchanged. If true, this must mean that different HG's today can trace back to this federation (perhaps DF21 and L513 being good examples of primary HG's among them). In that case, it follows that some, but clearly not all, of DF21 and L513 could have been brought to Britain from Ireland, via the known migration periods (e.g. Dalriada). Please correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm just starting my reading on this :)

Jon

Rory Cain
04-21-2015, 09:22 PM
Oh indeed, well the prime example of such attachments is that of the Aírgialla where the "Three Colla's" (which appear to be nothing more than a literary creation) are attached into the "Dál Cuinn" lineage. The fact that we see DF21 (Aírgialla I cluster) and L513 (Aírgialla II cluster) seems to negate this:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/airgialla_4.jpg

Another major case of it is that of the Dál gCais and the Eoghanachta, the genealogy append their "mythical ancestor" Cormac Cas as a brother of Eogain Mór (equally mythical if ye ask me!). Of course the fact that Baron Inchiquin ("The O'Brien") has done BigY testing and is confirmed L226+ (Z253) and alot of Eoghanachta surnames show up as CTS4466+ kinda proves this not to be case (as the historians have argued for years anyways)

In addition, the 3rd alleged brother, Cian Cashel, left descendants who are largely DF21+, including Ely O'Carroll with DF21 > S5489 > Z16594 and O'Meagher with DF21 > S5488 > L1336. Three brother with different Y-DNA!

The Ely O'Carroll
& O'Meagher DF21 > S5489 supports the genealogy of both Septs, but remains problematic with Z16594 and L1336 appearing much older than the MRCA where the two genealogies are supposed to join.Hmmm.

Jon
04-24-2015, 07:56 PM
Hi Rory,
Just wondered if you had seen Mike W's latest L513 breakthrough - an early branch-off including a Kane (L513). From a look at the FTDNA site the L513 Kane's seem to be of Co Clare. I wonder how this might all tie up?

Jon

oneillabu
04-24-2015, 08:06 PM
Oh indeed, well the prime example of such attachments is that of the Aírgialla where the "Three Colla's" (which appear to be nothing more than a literary creation) are attached into the "Dál Cuinn" lineage. The fact that we see DF21 (Aírgialla I cluster) and L513 (Aírgialla II cluster) seems to negate this:


That is not what the book of Rights says regarding the Colla

"There is due to the king of Airgialla
throughout sea-girt Ireland
from lawful (?)
kings a third of every levy.
"A third of that third—truly...
—belongs to Colla Menn,
the young prince of the Collas."

The Book of Rights is said to have been compiled in the 5th century by St Benignus (Benen), who died in 467 and who was baptized by and a favorite disciple of St. Patrick.



as for the Uí Maine there genealogy claims Aírgialla connections but unlike the Aírgialla they are neither DF21 or L513 instead we see Z2961 show up in the Kelly senior line.


It is in the Book of Rights that we find the one and only mention of Nine Hostages in any of the early surviving writings


Nine hostages’ to the king of Ireland on his circuit
by consent of the king of Airgialla all together;
they should be entrusted to the king of Tlachtga in the east
without prison-cells or fetters.



So what does this passage tell us, well we know from this that the King of Ireland received Nine Hostages so this is likely Niall of the Nine hostages

So who was the King of Ireland and are there any clues from this manuscript to his identity, take a look at the following entry

Three shields, three swords, three horns,
three horses, and three merry women
to the king of Ui Nialláin of brilliant fame
from the king of Ireland of cool lakes.


Now it is unlikely that the King of Ireland was called the King of Cool lakes so this passage almost certainly refers to this Ui Niallain of brilliant fame as the Son of the King of Ireland who hailed from the area of the cool lakes

So where are the Cool lakes, well the East coast is the coolest area in Ireland due to its proximity to the Atlantic and it is here we find the Irish lake district of Lough Corrib (172.9), Lough Mask (83.4) and Lough Carra (15.6) which is our largest lake district and has our second largest lake in Lough Corrib.

So here we have written down for us dating from the 5th century the origin of Niall of the Nine hostages, he was descended from the ancient Kings of the West who were almost certainly DF21 because this area was dominated by this bloodline in this early period

The Ui Maine are the descendents of Niall and they were Corca Laidhe/Muscraige in origin and they were both predominately DF21

Here are the actual pedigrees of the Ui Maine taken from the Book of Lecan broken down into sections, note that the name Trainor is not included in any pedigree.

I have included the kit number or YSearch ID of any DF21 matches to each branch. If you compare this with theDF23/Z2961 matches you will see that DF21 has a far stronger claim to be Ui Maine, especially since this is the main DF21 hotspot.

The only DF23 names from these pedigrees are one Madden and a cluster of Kelly’s who share a fairly recent common ancestor and yet the M222 Niall propaganda has labelled this as Ui Maine even though there is no supporting evidence.

Here are the various Ui Maine Branches

CLANN CERNAIGH

O'Finain Finan, Fanning One match 173456 Feehan One Match 98203 (clan colla) Feeney

O'Laidhin Lyons, Lynne One example B8179

O'Lachtnain Loughnan Laughlin Four matches 103901, 158243, 311927, 149586

Conbhuidhe Conway, Conroy, Conry two matches 218112, 199254, possible third Conlon 324600

O'Ceinneididh Kennedy Four matches 169021, N30683, N21843, 81497

O'Dorchaidhi Darcy, Dorsey One Match 23504

Sidhachain Sheehan, One Match 205682

Cuilein, Cullen and Collins, One Match 210550 Cullen

THE CLANN AEDHAGAIN

Mac Egans Three matches 67599, 3676, 51686

THE CLANN FLAITHEAMHAIL MIC DLUTHAIGH.

O'Domnallains, Donnelan, Donald, Daniels Six matches, 44725, 286983, 183628, 177135, 278841, 184048

O'Maeilalaidfi's, Lally, Mulally, One Match, 217777

THE CINEL FATHAIDH

O'Fathaidh Faherty, Fahy, Flaherty,

PEDIGREE OF HY-CORMAIC OF MAENMAGH

Niall, son of Cerbhall, numerous DF21 Carrolls

SIL ANMCHADA

O'Maddens, One Match N61052

Ua Churrain Curran, No Curran match, one possible Curry mistranslation Kit number 116797

Ua Cinaeith, Kenny, One Match V8A7U

Muinter Chobhthaigh, Coffey, One Match, 95987

Ua Brenainn Brennan, One Mulvihill Match, 163988

Muintir Chicharain, Keighry, Carey, One Carey Match 84279

Muintir Rodaighi, Ruddy, Roddy, Reidy Two Matches, 204692, 63208

Muinter Conghalaigh, Conely, Two Matches 263699, 111808

Ua Dubhlaigh, Dooley, Six Matches, 24765, 115408, 214229, 3224, 168720, 1405

Muinter Lorcain, Larkin, Six matches, L-0088, L-0078, L-0083, L-0004, L-0065, L-0087

Ua Maenaigh, Mooney, Three matches LSC 146064, N92313, 76448,

THE MUINNTER CHOBHTHAIGH,

Muinter Madadhain. Madden, One Match N61052

Muinter Chinaith, Kenny, One Match V8A7U

Muinter Tresaigh, Tracey Seven matches, 289639, 335793, 164932, 129222, 185725, 45013, 271750

Ua Churrain Curran, No Curran match, one possible Curry mistranslation Kit number 116797

Ua Aedha, Hughes, Hugh. McHugh Four matches, 7996 (Colla), 182014, MESPS, EBJTD

Muinter Ruairc, O'Rourke, Six Matches, N105692, H1730, 144806, 126218, 67651, 133193

Muinter Dubhlainn, now Dowling, Doolin, Five Matches, 202200, N127012, 148622, N57631, 198281

Muinter Arrachtain, Harrington, One Match, 119300 (Colla)

Muinter Conrui, Conry, King, Five Matches, 157485, 271391, 44513, 218112, 170847

Domhnall Mor, son of Tadhg Taillte, O'Kelly, Very large DF21 cluster

UI BRIUN AI

O'Connor, Four Matches, 193578, 178768, 155422, MacDermott, Two Matches, 171696, N71588

UI BRIUN BREFFNEY

O'Rourke, Six Matches, 67651, 133193, N105692, H1730, 144806, 126218, O'Reilly, Two matches 110716 (314.2), 91903

UA DUBHCHONNA

Downey Two DF5 Downing matches (161348) (187591)

5 Doolin's DF5 202200, N127012, 148622, N57631, 198281

Ua Mongain Mongan One example S5488 (N17039)

O'Ruaidhre, Rogers one S5488 Rogers (115854)

O'Cormaic Cormack or McCormack Two Clan Colla DF21 matches 253386 and 278906

Rory Cain
04-24-2015, 09:51 PM
Hi Rory,
Just wondered if you had seen Mike W's latest L513 breakthrough - an early branch-off including a Kane (L513). From a look at the FTDNA site the L513 Kane's seem to be of Co Clare. I wonder how this might all tie up?

Jon
Hi Jon

Yes, I saw that. A well deserved reward for Bill Kane's efforts & patience. Right now this new SNP includes just Bill Kane and a Brown, but may potentially include a number of Donoghues (various spellings). These Kane's appear to descend from the O'Cahane Coarbs of St Senan on Inishcatha. Some suspect a previous origin in Co Kerry. If the Donoghue L513 cluster share this new SNP, that would also point to Kerry as an earlier origin than when their name first appears in Clare.

Jon
04-25-2015, 10:16 AM
Hi Rory,

If there was a Kerry connection, that might suggest some earlier links with the big main L513 O'Shea group, whose origins are down there also. They are also in the same branch of L513 as the O'Donoghues, as I recall (S6365).

Jon

Rory Cain
04-26-2015, 12:33 AM
Hi Rory,

If there was a Kerry connection, that might suggest some earlier links with the big main L513 O'Shea group, whose origins are down there also. They are also in the same branch of L513 as the O'Donoghues, as I recall (S6365).

Jon

Jon, I always wondered if a connection with the O'Sheas might be uncovered. For a long time, Bill Kane was an "orphan" with no SNP downstream of L513. Now he and Brown have FGC13437, but that splits him from the O'Sheas and O'Donoghues. Unless those O'Dooghues who show up amongst Bill Kanes matches are not S6365 and not yet tested for FGC13437. All we know is that the GDs of FGC13437 are big, so it will include many other folks besides Bill and Mr Brown.

Jon
04-26-2015, 10:43 AM
Rory, I'd ask him myself if I had contact - but do you know where Bill Kane traces his line to? I'm guessing Ireland, but any idea which region? If you can't/don't want to answer, I quite understand.
I'm reading more about possible Airgialla links to all of this. They're a slippery bunch to pin down, that's for sure!

Rory Cain
04-26-2015, 08:45 PM
Rory, I'd ask him myself if I had contact - but do you know where Bill Kane traces his line to? I'm guessing Ireland, but any idea which region? If you can't/don't want to answer, I quite understand.
I'm reading more about possible Airgialla links to all of this. They're a slippery bunch to pin down, that's for sure!

I believe Bill is still searching for that info. Three other Kane/Keane guys in his group have origins in Ballylongford, Co Kerry; Kilrush, Co Clare; and Ruan Parish, Co Clare.

This O'Cahane group probably represent the O'Cahanes of O'Cahane's Castle on
Iniscatha in the Shannon who were probably the same sept as the O'Cahane coarbs of St Senan on Iniscatha.

No geographical or genetic connection with the Airghialla. Only one Cain is Airghialla so far. He is DF21 > S971.

GogMagog
05-17-2015, 03:25 PM
There is an updating for the MacEgans chiefly line in progress, there is also a gap of four generations in his pedigree.