PDA

View Full Version : Migrations of K, L and T



newtoboard
12-10-2013, 08:13 PM
Has anybody ever made a map on the migrations of various L and T clades as well as the K clade that is ancestral to L and T? is there a theory accepted by most scholars out there?

Humanist
12-10-2013, 09:36 PM
Has anybody ever made a map on the migrations of various L and T clades as well as the K clade that is ancestral to L and T? is there a theory accepted by most scholars out there?

I do not have a migration map, but based on the data, I believe Syro-Mesopotamia and Y-DNA T may have a long history. The same goes for (certain subclades ? of) Y-DNA L and Syria/Levant.


Y-DNA T in Syro-Mesopotamia, among minorities and Syrian Arabs(?). Sources are Mendez et al., and the Assyrian DNA project at FTDNA.


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/ydna_t_.jpg



This may tie-in with the above. Druze, Palestinian Christians, Alawites, and Maronites with the highest frequencies among Semitic-speaking populations.


PopID N L Language Source
Druze__ 751 6% Semitic Arabic Behar et al., Flores et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
PlChris 44 5% Semitic Arabic Fernandes et al.
Alawi 104 5% Semitic Arabic Donbak et al.
Assyr 79 1% Semitic Aramaic FTDNA, 23andMe (Pred. “Nestorian”)
IraqJ 79 0% Semitic Hebrew Behar et al.
IranJ 49 0% Semitic Hebrew Behar et al.
Armen 413 2% Indo-European Armenian Hererra et al.
NiqJ 99 1% Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic Nebel et al.
GrkOrt 59 0% Semitic Arabic Haber et al.
Maron 196 4% Semitic Arabic/Aramaic Haber et al.
YemeJ 74 0% Semitic Hebrew/Arabic Behar et al.
Bakht 46 0% Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh 18 0% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.
Gilak 43 0% Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki Roewer et al.
Mazan 46 4% Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh 43 14% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/Map_Middle_East_L_.jpg

newtoboard
12-10-2013, 09:41 PM
I think L1b has a long history in the Levant (that is what I believe most of the Levantine L belongs to). But I am not sure on that. For example DMXX has speculated that at least some of the Talysh L came from Central Asia. I don't see why the same can't apply to the Levant especially if we find L1a and L1c. L1b I don't know. But it does seem to have its peak among groups around the south Black and Caspian seas.

newtoboard
01-05-2014, 09:05 PM
There seems to be a lot of claims of L originating in Iran or Mesopotamia but given the distribution of L clades South Central Asia seems more likely. L1c seems to be concentrated in South Central Asia. L1b in West Asia. L1a in South Asia. L2 in Europe.

MfA
01-05-2014, 09:52 PM
I do not have a migration map, but based on the data, I believe Syro-Mesopotamia and Y-DNA T may have a long history. The same goes for (certain subclades ? of) Y-DNA L and Syria/Levant.

What is Northern Iraqi Jews? Are there another group of Jews other than the Kurdish Jews?


There seems to be a lot of claims of L originating in Iran or Mesopotamia but given the distribution of L clades South Central Asia seems more likely. L1c seems to be concentrated in South Central Asia. L1b in West Asia. L1a in South Asia. L2 in Europe.

There are quite many Hemshin Armenians with old L2(L1b).. I also have 2 L2* matches from Anatolia and a Cypriot..

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hemshin/default.aspx?section=yresults

Humanist
01-05-2014, 10:03 PM
What is Northern Iraqi Jews? Are there another group of Jews other than the Kurdish Jews?

Jews of N Iraq = Kurdish Jews. Native speakers of Northeastern Neo-Aramaic. Like myself.

Humanist
01-05-2014, 10:47 PM
There seems to be a lot of claims of L originating in Iran or Mesopotamia but given the distribution of L clades South Central Asia seems more likely. L1c seems to be concentrated in South Central Asia. L1b in West Asia. L1a in South Asia. L2 in Europe.

Well, I am not one who is claiming L originated in Iran/Mesopotamia. I think it is a possibility. But, of course, so is farther east. We need a study devoted to the question of Y-DNA L's origin(s). Some aDNA would not hurt either.

newtoboard
01-05-2014, 11:14 PM
I know you never made a claim like that. I wasn't talking about you but the fact that this seems to be a common theory on Eupedia.

vettor
01-05-2014, 11:41 PM
I know you never made a claim like that. I wasn't talking about you but the fact that this seems to be a common theory on Eupedia.

The claim comes from the paper on J and T in Madagascar and east africa. They where "arab/persian" slavers with markings of T and J and first appeared as hunter/herders from the Zargos mountains ( they migrated south later). The L is due to the high balochi and gedrosian mixture plus their "union" with the Akkadian empire and their association in the northern levant.

I agree that L began in south central Asia ( so did N ) , but moved westwards. IJKLT are the same family

vettor
01-05-2014, 11:43 PM
I do not have a migration map, but based on the data, I believe Syro-Mesopotamia and Y-DNA T may have a long history. The same goes for (certain subclades ? of) Y-DNA L and Syria/Levant.

you need to update the T tree...........there is a new branch

newtoboard
01-05-2014, 11:56 PM
Why do you think N started there too?

Humanist
01-06-2014, 01:44 AM
you need to update the T tree...........there is a new branch

Thanks. It is from a post on ABF from nearly two years ago. As is the below post, regarding Druze L haplotypes reported in Shlush et al.:


Y-DNA L haplotypes, exclusively from Druze. Shlush et al. Do not rely on the predictions, however. They are based on very few markers.


SNP 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389i 392 389ii Predictor.RU Probability
L-M20 11 22 15 11 xx xx 11 12 xx 13 14 30 L1-M295 81%
L-M20 11 22 15 11 xx xx 11 12 xx 13 14 30 L1-M295 81%
L-M20 11 22 15 11 xx xx 11 12 xx 13 14 30 L1-M295 81%
L-M20 11 22 15 11 xx xx 11 12 xx 13 14 30 L1-M295 81%
L-M20 11 22 15 11 xx xx 11 12 xx 13 14 30 L1-M295 81%
L-M20 11 22 15 11 xx xx 11 12 xx 13 14 30 L1-M295 81%
L-M20 11 22 14 10 xx xx 11 12 xx 13 14 29 L1a-M27 90%
L-M20 11 23 14 10 xx xx 11 12 xx 12 14 28 L1a-M27 88%
L-M20 11 22 14 10 xx xx 11 12 xx 12 14 28 L1a-M27 65%
L-M20 11 23 15 11 xx xx 11 14 xx 13 14 30 L1b*-M317 73%
L-M20 12 23 14 10 xx xx 11 12 xx 14 13 30 L1b1-M349 94%
L-M20 12 23 14 10 xx xx 11 12 xx 13 13 29 L1b1-M349 77%
L-M20 12 23 14 10 xx xx 11 12 xx 14 13 30 L1b1-M349 94%

vettor
01-06-2014, 04:13 AM
Why do you think N started there too?

from here

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/origins-and-dispersals-of-y-chromosome.html

vettor
01-06-2014, 04:17 AM
@ Humanist

January 1st 2014 T ydna tree

T L445, L452, L455/PF5670, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272/PF5667, Page129
• T* -
• T1 L206, L490, M193
• • T1* -
• • T1a M70/Page46/PF5662, Page78
• • • T1a* -
• • • T1a1 L162/Page21, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, L454
• • • • T1a1* -
• • • • T1a1a L208/Page2, L905
• • • • • T1a1a* -
• • • • • T1a1a1 Z709
• • • • • • T1a1a1* -
• • • • • • T1a1a1a CTS8512, Z710, Z713, Z714
• • • • • • • T1a1a1a* -
• • • • • • • T1a1a1a1 CTS2860, CTS7225/L907, CTS11968, L906, P77
• • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1* -
• • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1a CTS6507
• • • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1a1 CTS9882
• • • • • T1a1a2 P321
• • • • • • T1a1a2* -
• • • • • • T1a1a2a P317
• • • • • T1a1a3 PF7443, PF7444, PF7445, PF7453, PF7457, PF7458
• • • T1a2 L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b L446
• • • T1a3 L1255

Edit...I could not be bother removing the RED numbers as they are my only positives..........just think of them as Black

ataneojr1
02-22-2018, 10:41 PM
according to FTDNA Y12 I am K-M9...is that Old?

vettor
02-22-2018, 10:58 PM
Where sre you from.
Only M9 is strange.
K1 Group has L and T
And
K2 group has N O P Q R S M

GarethH
02-22-2018, 11:05 PM
according to FTDNA Y12 I am K-M9...is that Old?

Is it a prediction (in red) or confirmed (in green)? Have you joined any projects?

Caspian
02-22-2018, 11:20 PM
My estimates are as below.
L probably was from South Caucasus/Eastern Anatolia or West Iran/Mesopotamia.
T probably was from Levant/South Anatolia.
LT probably was from Levant or Mesopotamia.

vettor
02-22-2018, 11:25 PM
I would have thought LT wiuld be around the Pamir mointains especially since the recent himalyan paper found 11% of T2-ph110 which equals in age to T1

lgmayka
02-23-2018, 12:06 AM
according to FTDNA Y12 I am K-M9...is that Old?
23andMe found you to be P295+ , whereas FTDNA found you to be M45- . Thus, on ISOGG's P haplotree (https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpP.html) you probably belong to P2-B253. FTDNA considers this to be K-M9 because FTDNA's Y-Hap-Backbone test examines M45 but not P295.

ataneojr1
02-24-2018, 01:46 AM
21706 GREEN
@vettor
@GarethH

alchemist223
10-06-2020, 04:10 AM
I do not have a migration map, but based on the data, I believe Syro-Mesopotamia and Y-DNA T may have a long history. The same goes for (certain subclades ? of) Y-DNA L and Syria/Levant.

I think Humanist is correct here. This is what I posted in another thread:

Fascinatingly, a new T2 sample has been uploaded to YFull, creating a new subclade of T-PH196 (https://yfull.com/tree/T-PH196/) in addition to the Armenian sample. The sample appears to be of a Muslim Arab from Diyala Province of Iraq. Considering that the Armenian T2 sample appears to come from Gaziantep (formerly Aintab) in southern Turkey and the TMRCA of T-PH196 occurred approximately 8000 ybp, T-PH196 could have plausibly originated in Neolithic Mesopotamia. And considering that this is by far the most basal clade of Haplogroup T (the next most basal clade, T-M4538 (https://yfull.com/tree/T-M4538/) having an extremely recent TMRCA in a Lebanese family after splitting 18,400 ybp), the entire haplogroup may have well formed in Anatolia or Mesopotamia, and arrived in the Levant in the Neolithic period. But we need more ancient and modern samples of T to be sure.

alchemist223
10-06-2020, 04:12 AM
And my thoughts about the origin of LT.

I am not sure. After forming about 45,000 years ago, LT has a TMRCA of 42,600 years ago, with both L and T being predominantly West Eurasian. I suspect LT may have migrated to the west before splitting (considering that K2a and K2b are solidly represented in East Eurasia), but the two haplogroups may have split in Eastern Eurasia, or possibly a west-to-east migration occurred instead. Both L and T have significant bottlenecks, with their TMRCAs being over 15,000 years after their formation. We need far more Paleolithic DNA samples to know what exactly happened.

vettor
10-06-2020, 04:21 AM
I think Humanist is correct here. This is what I posted in another thread:

Fascinatingly, a new T2 sample has been uploaded to YFull, creating a new subclade of T-PH196 (https://yfull.com/tree/T-PH196/) in addition to the Armenian sample. The sample appears to be of a Muslim Arab from Diyala Province of Iraq. Considering that the Armenian T2 sample appears to come from Gaziantep (formerly Aintab) in southern Turkey and the TMRCA of T-PH196 occurred approximately 8000 ybp, T-PH196 could have plausibly originated in Neolithic Mesopotamia. And considering that this is by far the most basal clade of Haplogroup T (the next most basal clade, T-M4538 (https://yfull.com/tree/T-M4538/) having an extremely recent TMRCA in a Lebanese family after splitting 18,400 ybp), the entire haplogroup may have well formed in Anatolia or Mesopotamia, and arrived in the Levant in the Neolithic period. But we need more ancient and modern samples of T to be sure.

Did yfull have all 3 x T2-PH196 or PH110 samples ...................these are found in Armenia, Bhutan and Germany

alchemist223
10-06-2020, 04:24 AM
No, but it would be enlightening to see the German and Bhutanese samples added to YFull. The German T2 most likely is the result of Neolithic migrations from the Near East to Europe. I have no idea how Haplogroup T got as far east as Bhutan.