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View Full Version : Relative finder distribution of South Asian Caste and Tribal Haplogroups



soulblighter
12-12-2013, 07:55 PM
I am starting this thread to ask members from South Asia with all 4 grandparents from the same ethnicity to post a Pie chart of relative finder haplogroups (Please post only if you have more than 30 relative finder results).

Here are the steps to do this:
1) Go to 23andme and to your relative finder results list.
2) Click Download data and download the Excel file.
3) Remove all columns except for mtDNA and yDNA data
4) Remove yDNA and mtDNA that you know are not from a south Asian parent (if you don't know, leave it as is)
5) Create a Pie chart from the data (If you don't know how to do this, PM me)

soulblighter
12-12-2013, 07:56 PM
My results (Tamil Iyer/Iyengar)

newtoboard
12-12-2013, 08:10 PM
My results (Tamil Iyer/Iyengar)

I'm a bit confused. With regards to Y-DNA isn't South Asian F actually the same thing as H2 ?

soulblighter
12-12-2013, 09:25 PM
I'm a bit confused. With regards to Y-DNA isn't South Asian F actually the same thing as H2 ?

Old F3 is new H2. But don't know what F subclade the 23andme samples on my relative finder list belong to.

Dr_McNinja
12-12-2013, 10:47 PM
Nowhere near 75 relative finder results and I don't know how to make the chart, but here's the data:


Maternal Haplogroup
I1
M4a
I1
M30
U7
U2b
U5a1
U2b
U2c
U2a
U5a1b1
R30
U2e
R5a2
H1e1
K2
U2b1


Paternal Haplogroup

F
C5a

J2a1c



R2
J2
H1a*
R1a1a
L3*
G2a5
I1*
R1b1b2a1a
R1a1a


Altogether:

Maternal Haplogroup Paternal Haplogroup
I1
M4a F
I1 C5a
M30
U7 J2a1c
U2b
U5a1
U2b
U2c R2
U2a J2
U5a1b1 H1a*
R30 R1a1a
U2e L3*
R5a2 G2a5
H1e1 I1*
K2 R1b1b2a1a
U2b1 R1a1a
Are other South Asian users really getting that many Relative Finder results on 23andMe?

Sein
12-13-2013, 04:25 AM
I now have a total of 139 "relatives". Here's the data.


Paternal haplogroups:
H1*
R1a1a
I2a2b
G2a
I1*
L3*
R1b1b2
J2a1e
I1*
R1b1b2a1a2d
L3*
R1a1a
L3*
R1a1a
J2
I1*
R1a1a
I2a2b
J1
R1a1a
R1a1a
R1b1b2a1a2d3*
R1a1a
I1*
H1a*
R1b1b2a1a
O2b*
R1a1a
R1b1b2a
R1a1a
E1b1b1a2*
R1a1a*
R1a1a
R1a1a
R1b1b2a1a2d
R1a1a
R1b1b2a1a
R1b1b2a1a2d3*
E1b1b1c1a
R1b1b2a1a1*
R1a1a
I2b1
R1b1b2a1a1
R1b1b2a1a1*
J2
R1a1a
R1b1b2a1a2f2
R1a1a
R1b1b2a
R1a1a
R1b1b2a1a
R1b1b2a1a2f*
R
R1a1a*
I2b1*
R1b1b2a1a1
J1
J2
I2a2b
R1b1b2a1a2c
C5*
R1a1a
I2a2b
Q1
R1a1a
R1b1b2a
Q1a3*
R1b1b2a1a2f*
J2b2*
G2a
E1b1b1c1
R1a1a
G1*
J2
L3*
R1a1a
E1b1b1c1a
G2c1
H1a*
R1a1a

Maternal haplogroups:
R2
U2e
A4
U9b
M4a
H
N1d
J1c
T2b5
T2b5
T2
H
U6a3
H
T2b5
T2
A4
H5b
J1b1a
J1b1a
U5a1b1
M5d
U5b2a1
U2e1
H
L3e1a1a
C4a1
H1c
I2
M30c
H14a
R0a1a
U2a
H5b
U5a1
W
T2b
HV
K1c1
H2a1
H1c
J1c
W
HV
K1a4a1
H1c
W3a
X2d
U4a1c
H2a1
J1c
W3a
W
H6a1
HV
L2a1
H14a
K1a4a1
T2c1
H1b
H1
H4a1a1a
N1a1a
U8a1a
HV6
H1
H3
M10a2
J1c2
H4a
H12
U3a1
M1a1
H1
HV0
V
H11a
J1c8
T1a
W4
H6a1
M30
R5a2
H15a
T2b
T1a1
H
H11a
T2b
J1c
U5b2a2
H6a1
R30b1
T2b5
X2
H6a1
HV0c
H1
M5a
H1c2
J1c5
U3a2
T1a1
H1
H20
H24
H5b
H7
K1a4a1
H1c
X2e
M4b
H10
H3
X2b
H3g
H17
H13a2
T1a1
M30
H1b
H1c
M5a
I1a1
U1a1
I1
I1a1
H6a1
H1c
H7a1
I4
U7
H
J1b3
M5a1b
U2c
U4a3
M2a1


I have 23 R1a1a matches. Of these, 4 are Polish, 3 are Iranian, 2 are Americans who are listed as being from "Eastern Europe", 2 are from Afghanistan (1 Pashtun, and 1 Tajik), 1 is Romanian, 1 is listed as being from "Northern Europe", 1 is Indian (Punjabi), 1 is Pakistani, 1 is listed as being from "East Asia", 1 is of "Multiple Regions", and as for the rest, I have no clue. The number of R1b1b matches caught me by surprise. I haven't counted, but based on my highly fallible visual skills, I think the largest paternal haplogroup found among my male "relatives" is R1b1b.

paulgill
12-13-2013, 08:02 AM
I don't quit understand what you are looking for? I have 23andMe results, Geno 2.0 results, and FTDNA 37 STRs, and soon will have 67STRs. I am J1-Z1853* and Mt H14a.

paulgill
12-13-2013, 08:16 AM
Maternal Haplogroup
J1b1a
M3
M30c
I4
M6
M6
HV2
U1a3
M
I1
M
H2b
M2a1a
U9b
M5b'c
U8b
M3a1
U2b2
M5b2a
U2b2
HV
H15
U7
D4j
M30c
U2b2
U7
U2c
U5a2a
M5a
U7
U2b2
U2
F1b1a1
H7
U2
H1e1a
M4b2
M3a
H1
HV2
H3
R5a2

Paternal Haplogroup





L3*
R1a1a*
R1a1a


L3*
R1a1a

J2a1j
H1*
H1a*
R1a1a
R1a1a
L3*
F
R1a1a
R2
R1a1a
L1
R1a1a
J2

R1a1a


J2a1c
R2
H1*
O3a3c1*


R1b1b2a1a2f*

H1a*
R1b1b2a1a1
L3*
R1a1a
R1a1a

I am Y-J1 Z1853* and Mt- H14a.

Sein
12-13-2013, 08:43 AM
Hi paulgil,

You should really post your "Who Am I?" Geno 2.0 results. If I'm not mistaken, you're a Punjabi Jatt? I've been very anxious to see Punjabi results for their autosomal test, but haven't found any individuals. I'd really appreciate this. Thank you.

Dr_McNinja
12-13-2013, 12:01 PM
Hi paulgil,

You should really post your "Who Am I?" Geno 2.0 results. If I'm not mistaken, you're a Punjabi Jatt? I've been very anxious to see Punjabi results for their autosomal test, but haven't found any individuals. I'd really appreciate this. Thank you.How long does Geno 2.0 take to deliver results? Is it really 6-8 weeks or is it sooner? They just got my sample a few days ago.

newtoboard
12-13-2013, 02:59 PM
I don't quit understand what you are looking for I have 23andMe results. Geno 2.0 results and FTDNA 37 STRs? I am J1-Z1853* and Mt H14a.

Very unusual groups for a South Asian. Is your line P58-?

newtoboard
12-13-2013, 03:10 PM
4) Remove yDNA and mtDNA that you know are not from a south Asian parent (if you don't know, leave it as is)


Shouldn't you have removed I1* from the paternal list?

soulblighter
12-13-2013, 04:00 PM
Pashtun (Sein)
Note: Many non south Asian matches

1058




Punjabi Jatt (Paul Gill)


1059

soulblighter
12-13-2013, 04:02 PM
Shouldn't you have removed I1* from the paternal list?

He did not indicate ancestral origins and I have no contact with this match.

BMG
12-13-2013, 04:17 PM
I am starting this thread to ask members from South Asia with all 4 grandparents from the same ethnicity to post a Pie chart of relative finder haplogroups (Please post only if you have more than 75 relative finder results).

I dont think many south asians have 75 relatives in 23 and me .You could lower the threshold to around 25

Are all those relatives real ones ? i am surprised you got that much relatives considering not many south asians have actually tested through 23andme

BMG
12-13-2013, 04:20 PM
How long does Geno 2.0 take to deliver results? Is it really 6-8 weeks or is it sooner? They just got my sample a few days ago.

For me it took exactly 6 weeks after they checked in my sample

soulblighter
12-13-2013, 05:16 PM
I dont think many south asians have 75 relatives in 23 and me .You could lower the threshold to around 25

Are all those relatives real ones ? i am surprised you got that much relatives considering not many south asians have actually tested through 23andme

Ok, I just lowered it to 30.
Yes, the matches are real. I actually have 163 matches to date. most if not all of them are south Indian Brahmins. I think it is because of the over representation of this ethnicity in the United States ( with possibly more exposure to the product)

and this is exactly why I have been asking for south Asians to come together to help test the major under represented groups(i think the Brahmin ethnicity is less than 2% of the south Indian population?)

BMG
12-13-2013, 07:14 PM
Yes, the matches are real. I actually have 163 matches to date. most if not all of them are south Indian Brahmins. I think it is because of the over representation of this ethnicity in the United States ( with possibly more exposure to the product)


I think the endogamy and relatively less population would have narrowed the gene pool.So many of those matches would actually be much more generations before than the posited one and thus increasing the number of matches .I have around 10 matches in ftdna family finder .not only all of them are syrian christians almost all have atleast a fifth cousin relationship to each other . I have been told that a similar situation occurs among ashkenazy jews also

Sein
12-13-2013, 07:36 PM
How long does Geno 2.0 take to deliver results? Is it really 6-8 weeks or is it sooner? They just got my sample a few days ago.

For me, I believe it took 12 weeks. I'm really curious as to your results.

soulblighter
12-13-2013, 07:51 PM
I think the endogamy and relatively less population would have narrowed the gene pool.So many of those matches would actually be much more generations before than the posited one and thus increasing the number of matches .I have around 10 matches in ftdna family finder .not only all of them are syrian christians almost all have atleast a fifth cousin relationship to each other . I have been told that a similar situation occurs among ashkenazy jews also

That is very true.
My mom is the only real relative I have on 23andme. None of the other relationships they suggest make any sense.
I supposedly have 9 second to third cousins, 60 fourth cousins! and 105 distant cousins...

The Tamil Brahmin community appears very inbred.

Sein
12-13-2013, 07:56 PM
Also, thank you for the chart Soulblighter! So, the largest maternal haplogroup among my matches is by far H, followed, in descending order, by U, T, M, and J.

soulblighter
12-13-2013, 07:59 PM
Also, thank you for the chart Soulblighter! So, the largest maternal haplogroup among my matches is by far H, followed, in descending order, by U, T, M, and J.

Do you know if most of the mtDNA H comes from European "relatives"?

paulgill
12-13-2013, 09:34 PM
How long does Geno 2.0 take to deliver results? Is it really 6-8 weeks or is it sooner? They just got my sample a few days ago.

Mine were batched on 14/8/13 and results came on 8/9/13. What you mean by "you should post your Who am I results"? That will give you the results of my autosomal dna only which can be changed drastically within one generation. At Geno 2.0, I am J1 P58-Z1853* and Mt H14. Yes, you are right I am a Punjabi Jatt from India. Even when there are around 30 Z1853* in our story, only two other of my matches have written their story. One is a German and the other one a Norwegian.



Southwest Asian
50%
Mediterranean
19%
Southeast Asian
15%
Northern European
13%
Northeast Asian
2%

My first reference population is Pamiri Tajikstan and the second one is Western Indian.

Sein
12-13-2013, 09:36 PM
It seems most of the H does come from European "relatives", but at least three are South Asians. Interestingly, my non-South Asian R1a1a "relatives" tend to belong to H. Not really sure if that means anything significant.

Thank you paulgill!

paulgill
12-13-2013, 09:52 PM
@Sein, Do you have a white American mother? You seem to have too many matches at 23andMe compared to other South Asians.

everest59
12-13-2013, 09:54 PM
I don't know how to create a pie chart, but I'll jut list the haplogroups. I'm Nepalese btw. I removed R1b's as they are probably not from South Asia. Here are the rest:
R1a1a
R1a1a*
R1a1a
R1a1a
R1a1a
R1a1a
C5a
R1a1a
R1a1a
C5a
R2
C5a
H1a*
R1a1a
C
C5a
D1
R1a1a
R1a1a
N
R2
R1a1a
H1a*

Maternal:
Maternal Haplogroup
R6
M34
I5a
U2
U2c
M3
M35b2
N1e'I
U2c
M35b
T1a1
N1e'I
M5a2a1
F1a'c
N1e'I
U2c
H2a
R6
M4b
M30d1
H2a
M5a2a1
D4
G2a1d
D4
M33b
N1e'I
U2b1
T1a1
M34b
G2a1d
M35b2
U2c
R5a2b
H6a1a
D4
U5a1b
M5b2a
D4j1b


Probably got some Tibetan in there. Not sure.

@Sein, is your C5* relative from the Indian subcontinent? Just curious.

Sein
12-13-2013, 10:16 PM
@paulgill - I'm pretty sure I don't, as I've had my mother genotyped at 23andMe ;). Though, I do seem to have more "relatives" than other people from Pakistan and India. And it seems the largest proportion of my "relatives" are non-South Asians (a lot of White Americans and Eastern Europeans, as well as quite a few Iranians). I think it boils down to me being a very liminal-peripheral South Asian. I'm probably not a South Asian in the "proper" or "robust" sense. A more concise and simple way to put it: I'm simultaneously a South Asian, West Asian, and Central Asian, with some distant connections to Northern-Eastern Europe. My ancestry is closely tied to all of these regions, especially the Asian ones, and I guess that is predictable for a Pashtun.

Sein
12-13-2013, 10:37 PM
@Sein, is your C5* relative from the Indian subcontinent?

I think this individual is from South Asia, since his maternal haplogroup is M4b.

paulgill
12-13-2013, 10:42 PM
Very unusual groups for a South Asian. Is your line P58-?

No, it is J1 P58+ with Z1853* as terminal SNP where my line split off from Z1865*. There are tens of thousands of us in India. Z1853* mutation supposed to be around 8000 years old.

parasar
12-13-2013, 11:01 PM
...

The Tamil Brahmin community appears very inbred.

I bet the same is the case with my community, but I have the opposite situation due to that, since my community has limited presence on 23andme, I don't have any real relatives there.

12 3rd and 4th 'cousins'

Me U2b2 R1a1a*

Female Northern Europe H1

Male India M6 J2b2*

Male U2e R1a1a*

Female Michigan H1c

Female California J1b1a

Male U4a1 R1b1b2a1a2d

Male M4-64 L1 (most likely India)

Male K1c1b R1b1b2a1a1*

Male T2 R1a1a

Male H1b R1b1b2a1a

Female Roane County, Tennessee J1c3b

Female H5a1

soulblighter
12-13-2013, 11:19 PM
It seems most of the H does come from European "relatives", but at least three are South Asians. Interestingly, my non-South Asian R1a1a "relatives" tend to belong to H. Not really sure if that means anything significant.

Thank you paulgill!

the R1a+ H combo is invariably an Eastern European thing.

evon
12-13-2013, 11:24 PM
Can i ask what your CoA Results are like, both default and lowest setting (5cM and 1+ gp)? i am especially curious if you guys pick up many Balkan based matches in Europe? Also Russian (Especially Tatar) matches.

Dr_McNinja
12-13-2013, 11:54 PM
Can i ask what your CoA Results are like, both default and lowest setting (5cM and 1+ gp)? i am especially curious if you guys pick up many Balkan based matches in Europe? Also Russian (Especially Tatar) matches.

Default:

India 0.2%

Lowest setting:

United States 0.7%–1.1%
India 0.4%–0.8%
Bangladesh 0.2%
Ireland 0.1%–0.3%
Venezuela 0.1%
Cuba 0.1%
Austria 0.1%
Canada 0.0%–0.5%
Pakistan 0.0%–0.3%
Italy 0.0%–0.3%
Netherlands 0.0%–0.2%
Czech Republic 0.0%–0.2%
Ukraine 0.0%–0.1%
Spain 0.0%–0.1%
Slovenia 0.0%–0.1%
Slovakia 0.0%–0.1%
Poland 0.0%–0.1%
Greece 0.0%–0.1%
France 0.0%–0.1%
United Kingdom 0.0%–0.0%
Sweden 0.0%–0.0%
Germany 0.0%–0.0%
Denmark 0.0%–0.0%
The US matches are mostly white Americans. I figure because they're the overwhelming majority among 23andMe's customer demographic for now.

My mother's:

Default:
India 0.1
Lowest:
United States 0.7%–2.0%
India 0.4%–0.9%
Pakistan 0.1%–0.4%
Germany 0.1%–0.3%
Portugal 0.1%–0.2%
Lebanon 0.1%–0.2%
Netherlands 0.1%
Ukraine 0.0%–0.4%
Italy 0.0%–0.2%
United Kingdom 0.0%–0.1%
South Africa 0.0%–0.1%
Romania 0.0%–0.1%
Poland 0.0%–0.1%
Norway 0.0%–0.1%
Mexico 0.0%–0.1%
Iran 0.0%–0.1%
Guyana 0.0%–0.1%
Czech Republic 0.0%–0.1%
Canada 0.0%–0.1%
Brazil 0.0%–0.1%
Belgium 0.0%–0.1%
Belarus 0.0%–0.1%
Sri Lanka 0.0%

Sein
12-14-2013, 12:06 AM
This is what I had, last time I checked. Has anyone seen significant changes or additions?

Default:

Ukraine=0.1%
Poland=0.1%
Iran=0.1%
Afghanistan=0.1%

Four grandparents, 5cM:

Pakistan=0.3%
United Kingdom=0.2%
Turkey=0.2%
Poland=0.2%
Afghanistan=0.2%
Ukraine=0.1%
Sweden=0.1%
South Korea=0.1%
Russia=0.1%
Romania=0.1%
Italy=0.1%
Iran=0.1%
Greece=0.1%
Finland=0.1%
Bulgaria=0.1%
Bosnia and Herzegovina=0.1%
Belarus=0.1%

everest59
12-14-2013, 12:11 AM
Can i ask what your CoA Results are like, both default and lowest setting (5cM and 1+ gp)? i am especially curious if you guys pick up many Balkan based matches in Europe? Also Russian (Especially Tatar) matches.

Default with the United States matches included:
Nepal 1.9%
United States 0.2%
India 0.2%

Lowest Setting:
Nepal 3.8%–4.1%
United States 0.7%–1.5%
India 0.3%–0.5%
Canada 0.1%–0.4%
Trinidad and Tobago 0.1%
Sweden 0.1%
Norway 0.1%
Colombia 0.1%
Albania 0.1%
United Kingdom 0.0%–0.3%
Ukraine 0.0%–0.1%
Russia 0.0%–0.1%
Poland 0.0%–0.1%
Mexico 0.0%–0.1%
Italy 0.0%–0.1%
Guyana 0.0%–0.1%
Germany 0.0%–0.1%
Finland 0.0%–0.1%
Austria 0.0%–0.1%

My biggest non-South Asian match is 9.3 cm (American).

paulgill
12-14-2013, 12:44 AM
Default

India

1.0%

Lowest

India=1.9%–2.1%
United States=1.0%–1.4%
United Kingdom-0.1%–0.5%
Italy=0.1%–0.1%
Russia=0.0%–0.2%
Georgia=0.0%–0.2%
Canada=0.0%–0.2%
Sweden=0.0%–0.1%
Poland=0.0%–0.1%
Greece=0.0%–0.1%
Germany=0.0%–0.1%
Cuba=0.0%–0.1%
Bangladesh=0.0%–0.1%
Norway=0.0%
Japan=0.0%–0.0%

BMG
12-14-2013, 03:11 AM
@paulgill - I'm pretty sure I don't, as I've had my mother genotyped at 23andMe ;). Though, I do seem to have more "relatives" than other people from Pakistan and India. And it seems the largest proportion of my "relatives" are non-South Asians (a lot of White Americans and Eastern Europeans, as well as quite a few Iranians). I think it boils down to me being a very liminal-peripheral South Asian. I'm probably not a South Asian in the "proper" or "robust" sense. A more concise and simple way to put it: I'm simultaneously a South Asian, West Asian, and Central Asian, with some distant connections to Northern-Eastern Europe. My ancestry is closely tied to all of these regions, especially the Asian ones, and I guess that is predictable for a Pashtun.
We can expect matches from west asia and central asia but when you start getting matches from say italy or england there should be something wrong with the algorithm they use.

Sein
12-14-2013, 03:36 AM
A very good point. I'd say there is a huge bias in their customer database.

Sein
12-14-2013, 05:06 AM
For those of us who've taken FTDNA's "Family Finder", do you know the ethnic backgrounds of your "relatives" there?

Sapporo
12-14-2013, 12:02 PM
Maternal Haplogroup

U7
U2e
X2
U7
U2b2
U2b2
M31a2
M4-64
T2b2
HV
J1b1b
R8a1a1c
M6
I2a
M52'58
U7
M6
M30
M4-64
M30
M30d1
M33a1b
U7
U4a1a
U7
M3a1
M30c
R
M4a
D4
HV
M35b
R5a2
U5b1b2
T2b
R30
A2
K1a1
G2a
I1a1
R6a1
M4a
U7
U2c
J1c3b
H39
W1c
H5b
W1c
W1c
M3a1
W1c
W1c
HV2
K1a1
W1c
T2
H14a
W1c
M30d1
H
M30
U2a
H1
W1c
W1c
M5a
H15a
H1
T2b2
H13a2
J1b1a

Paternal Haplogroup
R2
L3*
L3*

R1a1a
R2

F
L3*
R1a1a



T
R1a1a*
L3*
L3*

R1a1a
L3*
J2a1j
H1a*
J2a1j
E1b1b1c1a
L3*
F
L3*

R1a1a


C5a
R1a1a
R2
R1b1b2a1a1d*
L2*
R1b1b2a1a

R1a1a
R1b1b2a
R2
R
R1b1b2a1a2f*

R1b1b2a1a2d3*
I2

E1b1b1a2*
R2
R2

R2

R2
R1b1b2a1a


J1e


I2b1*
R1a1a

R1b1b2a1a


R1a1a
R1a1a
R1b1b2a1a1
L3*
L1
L3*


Soulblighter, mind making two pie charts for me? Excel is being funky when I try to. A couple of people on my relative finder are Latin American or White Americans though. Me and Paul are 4th to Distant Cousins as we share 0.10% on 1 segment.

BMG
12-14-2013, 12:20 PM
Though i have not tested through 23andme below is the pie chart of ydna data of my ethnic group kerala syrian christians (data collected from ftdna,23andme &geno2 results known to me and tried to avoid possible duplication ie same guy tested through different labs)
1061

evon
12-14-2013, 02:51 PM
Are you guys public matches in CoA, have you filled out the Questionnaire attached to CoA?



Austria 0.1%


IS this a public match? if so does the name start with H?



Ukraine=0.1%
Poland=0.1%

United Kingdom=0.2%
Turkey=0.2%
Poland=0.2%

Ukraine=0.1%
Sweden=0.1%

Russia=0.1%
Romania=0.1%
Italy=0.1%

Greece=0.1%
Finland=0.1%
Bulgaria=0.1%
Bosnia and Herzegovina=0.1%
Belarus=0.1%


Any of these Public matches?



Sweden 0.1%
Norway 0.1%

Albania 0.1%


Its interesting to see how the matches are distributed..I expected more Balkan based matches overall. The UK and Irish is likely due to a huge presence in the database, along with Americans in general.

Sapporo
12-14-2013, 04:02 PM
4 grandparents from same country.

Default

India = 1.3%

Lowest Setting:

India = 2.2%
France = 0.6%
Poland = 0.2%
Turkey = 0.1%
Sweden = 0.1%
Pakistan = 0.1%
Italy = 0.1%
Iran = 0.1%
Dominican Republic = 0.1%

The Swede, one of the Poles, one of the Italians, Turk and Dominican are public matches.

At least, this is how I think you're suppose to do it right? Can someone I'm sharing with see if I did it correctly?

everest59
12-14-2013, 04:13 PM
Well there is a box there for US and Canada matches. I would click on that as well. If I remember correctly your highest matches are US matches after India.

Dr_McNinja
12-14-2013, 04:14 PM
4 grandparents from same country.

Default

India = 1.3%

Lowest Setting:

India = 2.2%
France = 0.6%
Poland = 0.2%
Turkey = 0.1%
Sweden = 0.1%
Pakistan = 0.1%
Italy = 0.1%
Iran = 0.1%
Dominican Republic = 0.1%

The Swede, one of the Poles, one of the Italians, Turk and Dominican are public matches.

At least, this is how I think you're suppose to do it right? Can someone I'm sharing with see if I did it correctly?This is yours on lowest for me:


India 2.2%–2.9%
United States 1.7%–2.5%
France 0.6%–0.7%
Poland 0.2%–0.3%
Canada 0.1%–0.6%
Italy 0.1%–0.3%
Turkey 0.1%
Sweden 0.1%
Pakistan 0.1%
Iran 0.1%
Dominican Republic 0.1%
Australia 0.1%
Germany 0.0%–0.7%
Colombia 0.0%–0.6%
United Kingdom 0.0%–0.3%
Ireland 0.0%–0.3%
Spain 0.0%–0.2%
Russia 0.0%–0.2%
Norway 0.0%–0.2%
Mexico 0.0%–0.1%
Lithuania 0.0%–0.1%
Lebanon 0.0%–0.1%
Iraq 0.0%–0.1%
Hungary 0.0%–0.1%
Denmark 0.0%–0.1%
Austria 0.0%–0.1%

Dr_McNinja
12-14-2013, 04:15 PM
IS this a public match? if so does the name start with H?It's not a public match. I share a 6.1cM segment with this individual who has all 4 grandparents from Austria.

Dr_McNinja
12-14-2013, 04:18 PM
Evon, if you want to see a European breakdown of some South Asians, I compiled some Eurogenes results of South Asian posters here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

everest59
12-14-2013, 04:26 PM
I am HRP 315 if you want to add my harappa results.

Mehrdad
12-14-2013, 06:11 PM
So what's the difference between 23andMe autosomal and Geno 2.0?!

Sapporo
12-15-2013, 03:30 AM
I am HRP 315 if you want to add my harappa results.

You should probably pm him your results as the ones in the spreadsheet are the HarappaWorld DIY rather than the official Harappa results. Also, you should have him add your Eurogenes K13 as well. I'm very curious about your results. If you don't mind, could you post them in the Eurogenes thread with the oracles too?

Dr_McNinja
12-15-2013, 05:01 PM
You should probably pm him your results as the ones in the spreadsheet are the HarappaWorld DIY rather than the official Harappa results. Also, you should have him add your Eurogenes K13 as well. I'm very curious about your results. If you don't mind, could you post them in the Eurogenes thread with the oracles too?Yeah, everest59. You can PM me your GEDmatch kit # and I'll run through all the admixture calculator results for you and add it to the spreadsheet. Are you the same Nepalese Brahmin whose Eurogenes K36 I have in there (I believe from Anthroscape forums)?

everest59
12-15-2013, 05:18 PM
Okay, I just pmed you my kit number.

newtoboard
12-16-2013, 01:54 PM
No, it is J1 P58+ with Z1853* as terminal SNP where my line split off from Z1865*. There are tens of thousands of us in India. Z1853* mutation supposed to be around 8000 years old.

Are there really? The J1 frequency in South Asia in most studies has been close to zero hasn't it?

paulgill
12-16-2013, 07:44 PM
Are there really? The J1 frequency in South Asia in most studies has been close to zero hasn't it?

This is not your Arabian J1P58. It is from Anatolia, either Gutian to Massagetae then to India or from Conan the warrior to Ukraine to Massagetae then to India and may even be part of Dehae the Dahya Jatt clan which ruled Persia and beyond as Parthians. When you question my J1 Z1853* you are actually insulting my whole tribe, Khybar Pass may be named so by my people as Khabur River and J1 Z1853* go together and we still name our village as such, so there is not even a slightest chance of contamination here, and I know we are at least tens of thousands if not in millions. Obviously I am the only one in my tribe who have his Dna tested.

Mehrdad
12-16-2013, 08:11 PM
This has now peaked my curiosity. Very interesting.

newtoboard
12-16-2013, 08:15 PM
This is not your Arabian J1P58. It is from Anatolia, either Gutian to Massagetae then to India or from Conan the warrior to Ukraine to Massagetae then to India and may even be part of Dehae the Dahya Jatt clan which ruled Persia and beyond as Parthians. When you question my J1 Z1853* you are actually insulting my whole tribe, Khybar Pass may be named so by my people as Khabur River and J1 Z1853* go together and we still name our village as such, so there is not even a slightest chance of contamination here, and I know we are at least tens of thousands if not in millions. Obviously I am the only one in my tribe who have his Dna tested.

Relax. It was just a question. I was curious because J1 does not show up in most studies but maybe it might be limited to certain tribes such as yours.

Dr_McNinja
12-16-2013, 08:25 PM
This is not your Arabian J1P58. It is from Anatolia, either Gutian to Massagetae then to India or from Conan the warrior to Ukraine to Massagetae then to India and may even be part of Dehae the Dahya Jatt clan which ruled Persia and beyond as Parthians. When you question my J1 Z1853* you are actually insulting my whole tribe, Khybar Pass may be named so by my people as Khabur River and J1 Z1853* go together and we still name our village as such, so there is not even a slightest chance of contamination here, and I know we are at least tens of thousands if not in millions. Obviously I am the only one in my tribe who have his Dna tested.Where did you hear that Gills may be from the Dahiya? They seem to have a similar ancestry story in websites about Jat/Rajput ancestry, that they came from Iran near the Caspian Sea and were named after it

Dr_McNinja
12-16-2013, 08:32 PM
Okay, I just pmed you my kit number.I added your results to the other tabs on the spreadsheet.

soulblighter
12-17-2013, 01:55 AM
Nepalese Brahmin(Everest 59)
Note:Fewer than 30 yDNA samples

http://i.imgur.com/iVb2fuD.jpg?1





Jatt Sikh (Sapporo)
http://i.imgur.com/Qi747PY.jpg?1


Sapporo is the first person to not have a clear R1a majority .

Mehrdad
12-17-2013, 02:55 AM
Sapporo is the first person to not have a clear R1a majority .[/QUOTE]


You mean as in Japan Sapporo?!

parasar
12-17-2013, 03:51 AM
Where did you hear that Gills may be from the Dahiya? They seem to have a similar ancestry story in websites about Jat/Rajput ancestry, that they came from Iran near the Caspian Sea and were named after it

One of the first things to look at are family annals and see if there is any mention of this stuff or was it made up in the English period. While the facts the English civil servants collected are quite reliable, most of their stories are fanciful and based on superficial similarity of names (eg. Bellew's purported Rajput names for Afghans), some of whom only look similar when transcribed into English.

parasar
12-17-2013, 03:57 AM
This is not your Arabian J1P58. It is from Anatolia, either Gutian to Massagetae then to India or from Conan the warrior to Ukraine to Massagetae then to India and may even be part of Dehae the Dahya Jatt clan which ruled Persia and beyond as Parthians. When you question my J1 Z1853* you are actually insulting my whole tribe, Khybar Pass may be named so by my people as Khabur River and J1 Z1853* go together and we still name our village as such, so there is not even a slightest chance of contamination here, and I know we are at least tens of thousands if not in millions. Obviously I am the only one in my tribe who have his Dna tested.

Regarding Khyber, it comes to my mind that there was a Jewish establishment in Arabia of that name. That it has anything to with your J1 is very unlikely.

soulblighter
12-17-2013, 04:38 AM
Sapporo is the first person to not have a clear R1a majority .


You mean as in Japan Sapporo?![/QUOTE]

ofcourse not :) . look at post #40.
I don't know his ethnicity.

soulblighter
12-17-2013, 05:07 AM
Evon, if you want to see a European breakdown of some South Asians, I compiled some Eurogenes results of South Asian posters here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

Thanks! I just realized that you have my results in there as well.

Mehrdad
12-17-2013, 05:16 AM
You mean as in Japan Sapporo?!

ofcourse not :) . look at post #40.
I don't know his ethnicity.[/QUOTE]

Cool thanks man :) I was starting to think that it was Sapporo in Japan.

soulblighter
12-17-2013, 05:32 AM
Only Sein and I have G2a matches??

paulgill
12-17-2013, 07:26 AM
Dehae ruled the area Gills supposed to have come from many a times and they also ruled the area where P58 mutation supposed to have taken place. Gills are not Dahae but were most likely their allies, both are Jatt tribes and related. Rajputs have nothing to do with Jatts much, as most of Rajputs were Indian tribal people that Brahmins used agianst Jatts and Gujars. Yes some Jatts and Gujars did come under Brahmanism and became Rajputs and their Surnames are found among Rajputs but most Jatts rejected the idea to become second to Brahmans and never came under them.

paulgill
12-17-2013, 07:37 AM
Regarding Khyber, it comes to my mind that there was a Jewish establishment in Arabia of that name. That it has anything to with your J1 is very unlikely.

Khybar Rivers are in the area of the J1 P58 mutation. It be unwise to reject such a strong connection. Z1853* predates Judaism, and so does the name of Khybar Rivers, I believe. Some of my people use it as their Surname and if not the oldest, it may be proven someday as one of the oldest surnames in the world, and also among all the Jatts. Mind you, Anatolia and Arabia are not the same. People of the Jewish establishment in Arabia that you mentioned, were most probably originally from the area of Khybar Rivers.

Dr_McNinja
12-17-2013, 05:32 PM
Dehae ruled the area Gills supposed to have come from many a times and they also ruled the area where P58 mutation supposed to have taken place. Gills are not Dahae but were most likely their allies, both are Jatt tribes and related. Rajputs have nothing to do with Jatts much, as most of Rajputs were Indian tribal people that Brahmins used agianst Jatts and Gujars. Yes some Jatts and Gujars did come under Brahmanism and became Rajputs and their Surnames are found among Rajputs but most Jatts rejected the idea to become second to Brahmans and never came under them.I just ran into a 23andMe user from Hyderabad, India who is J2b2* and says their family claims descent from the famous Sufi, Abdul Qadir Gilani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul-Qadir_Gilani) who was from the Gilan province of Iran (re: where it is claimed Gills got their name from). But being from that part of India, the J2b2* haplogroup is not uncommon so unless they sign up for a STR test at FTDNA which I recommended, won't know if it's from the same strain as mine or other South Asian J2b2* individuals.

EDIT: In a further ironic twist, my actual surname is a Persian word referencing the aforementioned Sufi saint.

parasar
12-17-2013, 07:30 PM
I just ran into a 23andMe user from Hyderabad, India who is J2b2* and says their family claims descent from the famous Sufi, Abdul Qadir Gilani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul-Qadir_Gilani) who was from the Gilan province of Iran (re: where it is claimed Gills got their name from). But being from that part of India, the J2b2* haplogroup is not uncommon so unless they sign up for a STR test at FTDNA which I recommended, won't know if it's from the same strain as mine or other South Asian J2b2* individuals.

EDIT: In a further ironic twist, my actual surname is a Persian word referencing the aforementioned Sufi saint.

Gilan was covered in Grugni et al.
J1-M267* is present but in this sample set there is no J2b2 among the Gilakis


Eighty-eight Y-chromosome binary genetic markers were hierarchically genotyped as AFLP (YAP, [30]), RFLP (M2 [31], SRY10831.2 [32], M12 [33]; P15 [34]; M74 [35]; M34, M60, M61, M67, M70, M76, M78, M81, M175, M198, M207, M213 [36]; LLY22g, P36.2, P43 [37]; M123, M172 [38]; M242, M253, M285 [23]; V12, V13, V22 [39]; M377 [24]; P128, P287 [40]; M406 [41]; M269 [42]; Page08 [43]; V88 [44]; M458 [45]; PAGE55 [46]; L23, M412 [47]; L91 [48]; M527, M547, Page19, P303, U1 [49]), by DHPLC (M217 [50]; M25, M35, M47, M68, M69, M82, M92, M124, M170, M173, M174, M201, M205, M214, M216 [36]; M429 [51]; P209 [40]; M241, M267, M343 [23]; M357, M378, M410 [24]; M346 [40]; M434, M458 [45]; M530 [46]; L497, P16 [49]), and direct sequencing (M18 [33]; M42, M73, M75, M96 [52]; M33, PN2 [36]; MEH2 [53]; M317 [24]; M356 [54]; M438 [51]; P297 [40]) ... The following 10 Y-STR loci: DYS19, DYS388, DYS389I/II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS439, DYS460, YCAIIb/YCAIIa were analyzed in a subset of Y chromosomes
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

paulgill
12-17-2013, 08:33 PM
@Parasar, 1. Sample is scanty. 2. He should look for it among his own people(Jatts), because when these movements happen generally most or all the tribe migrates. 3. Should also look for it among the European Gills and the variations of it, because the source of this surname is the same Scythian, Goths, Samaritians, Jutes etc. 4. If he is looking for its roots he should focus on relation around 2000 yrs old though Ydna snps. Strs have reverse mutation so may be misleading. I have 37 STRs and closest are 9GD, and all are East Europeans. I think all this can be resolved only though tons of FG sequencing from everywhere and each tribe. J2b2 is found in Mazandarani which is between Gilan and Golestan.

Dr_McNinja
12-17-2013, 08:50 PM
@Parasar, 1. Sample is scanty. 2. He should look for it among his own people(Jatts), because when these movements happen generally most or all the tribe migrates. 3. Should also look for it among the European Gills and the variations of it, because the source of this surname is the same Scythian, Goths, Samaritians, Jutes etc. 4. If he is looking for its roots he should focus on relation around 2000 yrs old though Ydna snps. Strs have reverse mutation so may be misleading. I have 37 STRs and closest are 9GD, and all are East Europeans. I think all this can be resolved only though tons of FG sequencing from everywhere and each tribe.With 37 STRs, my closest are 11-12GD from Turkey and Europe, and none from J2-M241. I don't think there will be widespread FG sequencing until its much cheaper. Maybe in a few decades.

parasar
12-17-2013, 10:31 PM
@Parasar, 1. Sample is scanty. 2. He should look for it among his own people(Jatts), because when these movements happen generally most or all the tribe migrates. 3. Should also look for it among the European Gills and the variations of it, because the source of this surname is the same Scythian, Goths, Samaritians, Jutes etc. 4. If he is looking for its roots he should focus on relation around 2000 yrs old though Ydna snps. Strs have reverse mutation so may be misleading. I have 37 STRs and closest are 9GD, and all are East Europeans. I think all this can be resolved only though tons of FG sequencing from everywhere and each tribe. J2b2 is found in Mazandarani which is between Gilan and Golestan.

There is no doubt that the sample is small.
Plus there is also no doubt in my mind that the closest matches will be found among Jatts.

Nevertheless, we have to keep in mind that J2-M241 has a very different coverage in India when compared to J1-M267. J2-M241 (like H, R1a1, etc) is found in every part of India, except perhaps the north-east region adjacent to Burma.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/bin/AJHGv78p202fg4a.jpg


One distinction noted by Sengupta was that South Asians predominantly show a "7-repeat motif at the A7.2 microsatellite locus, in contrast to the 8-repeat motif in Europe." This is also see on the SNP side - within M241 there is a clear bifurcation between South Asians and Europeans. The former are Z2432 and the latter are L283. We will have to see on which side the Jatts M241 falls. Right now, if I had to bet, I would bet on Z2432 http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/

Dr_McNinja
12-17-2013, 11:24 PM
There is no doubt that the sample is small.
Plus there is also no doubt in my mind that the closest matches will be found among Jatts.

Nevertheless, we have to keep in mind that J2-M241 has a very different coverage in India when compared to J1-M267. J2-M241 (like H, R1a1, etc) is found in every part of India, except perhaps the north-east region adjacent to Burma.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/bin/AJHGv78p202fg4a.jpg


One distinction noted by Sengupta was that South Asians predominantly show a "7-repeat motif at the A7.2 microsatellite locus, in contrast to the 8-repeat motif in Europe." This is also see on the SNP side - within M241 there is a clear bifurcation between South Asians and Europeans. The former are Z2432 and the latter are L283. We will have to see on which side the Jatts M241 falls. Right now, if I had to bet, I would bet on Z2432 http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/

A7.2 should be DYS461 I think which is tested by the 111 marker test at FTDNA. Most are 9 and 10, European or otherwise, a few are 8 and even fewer are 7:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA_J/default.aspx?vgroup=Y-DNA_J&section=yresults

So I'm not sure what that study is talking about.

It should be Z2432 too I think. That showed up in "PJL" which was "Punjabi in Lahore", but if it's Arain Punjabi or a different group, it could be of a different origin. A lot of Arain Punjabi are plain J-M172.

So far there aren't any other J2 Punjabis at the FTDNA database with more than 12 markers done. I had 10 at DYS617 and 10 at DYS464a which I think might be significant if I am J2-M241 since I haven't seen that anywhere else yet. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ajhri0M5fYwQdFR2ei05VGowV2t6WEJVdzd6bUc2V UE#gid=0)

parasar
12-18-2013, 02:42 AM
A7.2 should be DYS461 I think which is tested by the 111 marker test at FTDNA. Most are 9 and 10, European or otherwise, a few are 8 and even fewer are 7:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA_J/default.aspx?vgroup=Y-DNA_J§ion=yresults

So I'm not sure what that study is talking about.

...

It appears that you have to add 2 to Sengupta's A7.2 repeat count to convert to FTDNA. I compared R1a1 A7.2 STRs and that is difference I'm seeing.

Mehrdad
12-18-2013, 02:42 AM
It would seem to me that the Jatts were one of the last groups to migrate into South Asia. Is this true?!

Dr_McNinja
12-18-2013, 03:03 AM
It would seem to me that the Jatts were one of the last groups to migrate into South Asia. Is this true?!The opposite actually. Some of the first Indo-Europeans in South Asia became Jatts. Jatt is just an agricultural non-Brahmanic caste. Some of the tribes that joined that caste come from the earliest Indo-European settlements in South Asia many thousands of years ago and some come from recent (i.e, Scythian or similar type 2000ybp). Generally speaking the caste "closed" around 1800-2000ybp with the last of the Indo-Scythians when endogamy caught on, the region became more crowded (offering stiffer resistance to invaders, like as happened to Alexander), and after which recorded history detailed movements of peoples better.

Dr_McNinja
12-18-2013, 03:16 AM
It appears that you have to add 2 to Sengupta's A7.2 repeat count to convert to FTDNA. I compared R1a1 A7.2 STRs and that is difference I'm seeing.Thanks for clearing that up.

There's a Serbian J2-M241 L283+ who has the 7/9 there.

paulgill
12-18-2013, 09:09 AM
The opposite actually. Some of the first Indo-Europeans in South Asia became Jatts. Jatt is just an agricultural non-Brahmanic caste. Some of the tribes that joined that caste come from the earliest Indo-European settlements in South Asia many thousands of years ago and some come from recent (i.e, Scythian or similar type 2000ybp). Generally speaking the caste "closed" around 1800-2000ybp with the last of the Indo-Scythians when endogamy caught on, the region became more crowded (offering stiffer resistance to invaders, like as happened to Alexander), and after which recorded history detailed movements of peoples better.

It is obvious that your knowledge about Jatts is very poor. Jatts were Central Asian nomads, Mostly Iranic Tribes, Scythians, Samaratians etc. They took to agriculture only later on. Read Deva Samhita. Dahae are the Royal Scythians. Gill, Mann, Virk, Dhillon, Bains and many more surnames common with Europeans are found only among Jatts and non other, because these are ancient tribe names of these Central Asians and got into India and Europe as Goths, Jutes, Alans, Samaratians and Scythians migrated south into Indian subcontinent and West into Europe.

Many communities in India are into agriculture and they have either their own caste or ethnic group and are not called Jatts just because they are agriculturists. Jatts, Kamboh, Gujar and even Ahirs are considered by most as outsiders. Jatt is an ethnic group not a caste, they were never a part of the caste system.

paulgill
12-18-2013, 09:41 AM
With 37 STRs, my closest are 11-12GD from Turkey and Europe, and none from J2-M241. I don't think there will be widespread FG sequencing until its much cheaper. Maybe in a few decades.

11Gd at 37 STRs means no relationship or no relationship for the past 2500yrs. But it is worth looking into if it is of Central Asian origin. I have a match of 1GD at 12 STRs from Turkey and we are trying to get him to go for more DNA testing. He is from Yetis family, Yetis does sound close to Jatts. We know that he is originally from Central Asia and may be Z1853* like me and may belong to my lineage.

Not a few decades, may be in a few years FG be affordable for most.

paulgill
12-18-2013, 09:49 AM
It would seem to me that the Jatts were one of the last groups to migrate into South Asia. Is this true?!

Last ones are probably Gurjar and Kamboh.

Dr_McNinja
12-18-2013, 03:46 PM
Last ones are probably Gurjar and Kamboh.Kamboja are Iron Age, no? ~2200-3000ybp. At the latest they came into India around the time of the Scythians. The Gujjar came significantly later (~1500ybp) with the Hephthalites

Dr_McNinja
12-18-2013, 03:48 PM
11Gd at 37 STRs means no relationship or no relationship for the past 2500yrs. But it is worth looking into if it is of Central Asian origin. I have a match of 1GD at 12 STRs from Turkey and we are trying to get him to go for more DNA testing. He is from Yetis family, Yetis does sound close to Jatts. We know that he is originally from Central Asia and may be Z1853* like me and may belong to my lineage.

Not a few decades, may be in a few years FG be affordable for most.I have a 1GD match at 12 markers from Turkey too. A J2b1 individual.

Dr_McNinja
12-18-2013, 04:18 PM
It is obvious that your knowledge about Jatts is very poor. Jatts were Central Asian nomads, Mostly Iranic Tribes, Scythians, Samaratians etc. They took to agriculture only later on. Read Deva Samhita. Dahae are the Royal Scythians. Gill, Mann, Virk, Dhillon, Bains and many more surnames common with Europeans are found only among Jatts and non other, because these are ancient tribe names of these Central Asians and got into India and Europe as Goths, Jutes, Alans, Samaratians and Scythians migrated south into Indian subcontinent and West into Europe.

Many communities in India are into agriculture and they have either their own caste or ethnic group and are not called Jatts just because they are agriculturists. Jatts, Kamboh, Gujar and even Ahirs are considered by most as outsiders. Jatt is an ethnic group not a caste, they were never a part of the caste system.Since there is no official story here, you're welcome to your opinion but I personally don't consider Jatt a truly separate ethnic group. The genetic differences are minor and entirely attributable to caste-based endogamy and the very word "Jat" has etymological connections to the basis for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti

The origin of Jatts is uncertain, but Jatt, today and for the past 1500 years at least constituted an agricultural non-Brahmanic/Hindu caste in the northwestern part of India (not simply an agricultural caste, but specifically one that didn't mesh with Hinduism properly and existed in the Northwest... some of them or most of them might have had Central Asian ancestry but more than a few have completely local/native Y-DNA lineages). The first tribes might have actually had a deeper Jatt identity while they were still in Central Asia but more likely they had independent tribal identities and "Jatt" didn't become a unifying identity until they settled into an agricultural lifestyle in India, sort of like retirement from their previous nomadic lifestyle in Central Asia. The Kamboj would be an example of an exception, who didn't assimilate into the Jatt caste (for whatever reason, they were a Central Asian tribe who came into India around the same time) and retained their original identity.

There are theories that "Jatt" was used as an identifying term for a nation or confederation of many tribes since their time in Central Asia, and that it etymologically has connections to Goths, Jutes, etc but all this is still pretty much unsubstantiable hearsay.

You know all this. So you should also know that the tribes it is claimed Jatts are related to (i.e, Alans, Jutes, Goths, etc) retained their tribal identities in Europe and became separate ethnic groups. The history of Jatts in India did not follow a similar pattern. There isn't enough of a cultural and genetic difference, imho, to label them as a truly separate ethnicity. But India's caste system is today unique so the various castes have evolved into a near ethnic level of differentiation in some cases. I would consider "Punjabi", "Rajasthani", "Kashmiri", "Pahari", "Pathan", "Sindhi", "Balochi", etc examples of ethnic groups. You could label Jatt as a tribe or caste within that context. It functions the same either way in modern times (and in ancient times more like a caste since the sub-tribes held their independent identities a little better). Since the word is too broad for the terms tribe or ethnicity, caste will have to do (since it did function like a caste once the people known as Jatts settled in India). Studies do show that endogamy did not catch on in India until the development of the four varna caste system or sometime around ~2000ybp, so it might have been influenced by that even if not formally a part of it. The word itself has an etymological connection to the very word for caste. Before ~2000ybp it might have functioned as an identity for a confederation or nation of tribes, and not a caste, but we don't know more about that yet.

Another thing to note is that the usual suspects in claimed Jatt ancestry (Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, and other Central Asian groups) have history that is too recent to account for the Y-DNA haplogroups. You yourself have admitted your J1 haplogroup has been in South Asia for thousands of years before the time period in which these groups came south.

Mehrdad
12-18-2013, 04:48 PM
Since there is no official story here, you're welcome to your opinion but I personally don't consider Jatt a truly separate ethnic group. The genetic differences are minor and entirely attributable to caste-based endogamy and the very word "Jat" has etymological connections to the basis for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti

The origin of Jatts is uncertain, but Jatt, today and for the past 1500 years at least constituted an agricultural non-Brahmanic/Hindu caste in the northwestern part of India (not simply an agricultural caste, but specifically one that didn't mesh with Hinduism properly and existed in the Northwest... some of them or most of them might have had Central Asian ancestry but more than a few have completely local/native Y-DNA lineages). The first tribes might have actually had a deeper Jatt identity while they were still in Central Asia but more likely they had independent tribal identities and "Jatt" didn't become a unifying identity until they settled into an agricultural lifestyle in India, sort of like retirement from their previous nomadic lifestyle in Central Asia. The Kamboj would be an example of an exception, who didn't assimilate into the Jatt caste (for whatever reason, they were a Central Asian tribe who came into India around the same time) and retained their original identity.

There are theories that "Jatt" was used as an identifying term for a nation or confederation of many tribes since their time in Central Asia, and that it etymologically has connections to Goths, Jutes, etc but all this is still pretty much unsubstantiable hearsay.

You know all this. So you should also know that the tribes it is claimed Jatts are related to (i.e, Alans, Jutes, Goths, etc) retained their tribal identities in Europe and became separate ethnic groups. The history of Jatts in India did not follow a similar pattern. There isn't enough of a cultural and genetic difference, imho, to label them as a truly separate ethnicity. But India's caste system is today unique so the various castes have evolved into a near ethnic level of differentiation in some cases. I would consider "Punjabi", "Rajasthani", "Kashmiri", "Pahari", "Pathan", "Sindhi", "Balochi", etc examples of ethnic groups. You could label Jatt as a tribe or caste within that context. It functions the same either way in modern times (and in ancient times more like a caste since the sub-tribes held their independent identities a little better). Since the word is too broad for the terms tribe or ethnicity, caste will have to do (since it did function like a caste once the people known as Jatts settled in India). Studies do show that endogamy did not catch on in India until the development of the four varna caste system or sometime around ~2000ybp, so it might have been influenced by that even if not formally a part of it. The word itself has an etymological connection to the very word for caste. Before ~2000ybp it might have functioned as an identity for a confederation or nation of tribes, and not a caste, but we don't know more about that yet.

Another thing to note is that the usual suspects in claimed Jatt ancestry (Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, and other Central Asian groups) have history that is too recent to account for the Y-DNA haplogroups. You yourself have admitted your J1 haplogroup has been in South Asia for thousands of years before the time period in which these groups came south.

Has there been an analysis of both Y and mtDNA's done on the Jatts? Their autosomal from what I've seen is definitely different from their neighboring populations.

Dr_McNinja
12-18-2013, 05:29 PM
Has there been an analysis of both Y and mtDNA's done on the Jatts? Their autosomal from what I've seen is definitely different from their neighboring populations.The variation between Jatts and other neighboring groups is pretty much a gradient. They are very similar to Pathans and Punjabi Arain, Brahmin, Khatri, etc

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdDhib1M5OE1wWENNb2haUFFWZzNBMEE#gid=0

paulgill
12-18-2013, 07:39 PM
Garbage in garbage out. You are buying into the garbage that have been put on the internet. All of what you read is not true. I wonder where your claims come from? Jatts' European component of atuosomal dna alone proves your theory of Jatts being local people untrue. And there are still traditions among Jatts that directly point out them being mainly Massagetae, and if you are a Jatt you should be aware of that. Sorry to say but your knowledge of Jatts is near to nil.

paulgill
12-18-2013, 07:48 PM
The variation between Jatts and other neighboring groups is pretty much a gradient. They are very similar to Pathans and Punjabi Arain, Brahmin, Khatri, etc

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdDhib1M5OE1wWENNb2haUFFWZzNBMEE#gid=0

And all those groups are outsiders.

parasar
12-18-2013, 10:33 PM
Kamboja are Iron Age, no? ~2200-3000ybp. At the latest they came into India around the time of the Scythians. The Gujjar came significantly later (~1500ybp) with the Hephthalites

Even that is suspect. You may have seen on another thread a paper posted that finds little if any evidence of the Ashkenaki Jewish connection to Khazars.
"Our data render the latter source highly unlikely"
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html

These same Khazars were purported to have been Gurjjara.

There was Gurjjar Pratihar (later Rajput) rule in Kannauj, which dynasty was started by a Brahman Harichandra.
Ghatayala Inscription: "Padihara-vanso ... vippo Hariando" http://books.google.com/books?id=IwE16UFBfdEC&pg=PA146

Another Gurjjara dynasty is thought to be that of Udaipur Rajputs which was started by a Brahman Guhadatta.
Atpur Inscription "From Anandpur came he of Brahman race (may he flourish!) Muhideosur Gohadit [Guhil], from whom came the famous Gohil tribe" http://www.eternalmewar.in/research/wikipedia/index.aspx?q=atpur

The supposedly third Gurjjara was the Rajput Chauhan dynasty which was established by the Brahman Samanta.
Bijolia Inscription: calls the first Chahamana as Samanta a Vipra of the Vatsa kula.
विप्र श्री वत्स गोत्रे भूदहिच्छ्त्रपुरे पुरा । सामन्तोअनन्त सामन्त: पूर्नतल्लो नृपस्तत: ॥ तस्माच्छ्री :जयराजविग्रहनृपौ-श्री चन्द्रगोपेन्द्रकौ । तस्मादुर्लभ गूबको शशिनृपौ-गूवाकसच्चन्दनौ ॥ Epigraphia Indica, Vol.3
http://www.jatland.com/home/Bijolia_Bhilwara

So faced with all these Brahman dynasties ruling north India, a theory was developed. This is the Khazar-Hephathlite Hun theory. According to this theory the Khazars were the priests of these Huns, and later became Rajputs.
Campbell and Bhandarkar were the main proponents of this theory: http://books.google.com/books?id=gUAvuYu-otEC&pg=PA59

In my opinion, all of the above is suspect. In one the records written (Desavali-vivriti by Pandit Jagamohan) about our caste, we are called of Gurjjar origin and were dislodged from the Yamuna to settle further down the Ganges.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA46&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0HkTSBGW3rSS5EC8GTdArGDOcElg&ci=401%2C302%2C373%2C175&edge=0

I can't speak for all Gurjjars, but as I am L657-Y9-Y2392, and as no L657 has been found anywhere in Khazar lands, then at least our Gurjjar line was not Khazar!

Mehrdad
12-18-2013, 10:58 PM
[/QUOTE] I can't speak for all Gurjjars, but as I am L657-Y9-Y2392, and as no L657 has been found anywhere in Khazar lands, then at least our Gurjjar line was not Khazar![/QUOTE]

I didn't know you were Y9, all this time I thought you were Y7.

Dr_McNinja
12-18-2013, 10:58 PM
Garbage in garbage out. You are buying into the garbage that have been put on the internet. All of what you read is not true. I wonder where your claims come from? Jatts' European component of atuosomal dna alone proves your theory of Jatts being local people untrue. And there are still traditions among Jatts that directly point out them being mainly Massagetae, and if you are a Jatt you should be aware of that. Sorry to say but your knowledge of Jatts is near to nil.Some Western European populations have more Baloch today than South Asian populations that have Northeast European. Even the high NE-Euro in Haryanvi Jatts isn't that much to go crazy over considering Pathan/Pashtun, Brahmin, Rajput, etc have been seen to have NE-Euro in the teens as well (not to mention distant Central Asian populations like Tajiks who are on the border with Northwestern India have even higher NE-Euro). Everyone is related ("Indo-European") and no one is arguing that Jatts did not come from Central Asia. They did, that is their highly likely origin, but we don't know much beyond that. We don't even know dates. I don't think all Jatts are from Massagetae, some of the Y-DNA haplogroups are too local and too old. Some of them doubtless came from that group though. And some from Indo-Scythian stock, some from Indo-Greek, and some from much earlier migrations. I think the Scythians were probably the source of the biggest assimilation into Jatts in the latter part of their formative period (before 2000ybp).

It's common sense too, when people migrate or settle into an area and two populations assimilate, even if one population dominates the other, one population doesn't entirely displace the other. I think the more interesting question is about the local South Asian contributions to Jatt ancestry. Who were they and what was their lifestyle? (aside from being agriculturalists) We already have a fairly good idea about what the Central Asians were like since Central Asian lifestyle hasn't changed much throughout the millennia (the typical nomadic horse-centric warrior culture).

Dr_McNinja
12-18-2013, 10:59 PM
Even that is suspect. You may have seen on another thread a paper posted that finds little if any evidence of the Ashkenaki Jewish connection to Khazars.
"Our data render the latter source highly unlikely"
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html

These same Khazars were purported to have been Gurjjara.

There was Gurjjar Pratihar (later Rajput) rule in Kannauj, which dynasty was started by a Brahman Harichandra.
Ghatayala Inscription: "Padihara-vanso ... vippo Hariando" http://books.google.com/books?id=IwE16UFBfdEC&pg=PA146

Another Gurjjara dynasty is thought to be that of Udaipur Rajputs which was started by a Brahman Guhadatta.
Atpur Inscription "From Anandpur came he of Brahman race (may he flourish!) Muhideosur Gohadit [Guhil], from whom came the famous Gohil tribe" http://www.eternalmewar.in/research/wikipedia/index.aspx?q=atpur

The supposedly third Gurjjara was the Rajput Chauhan dynasty which was established by the Brahman Samanta.
Bijolia Inscription: calls the first Chahamana as Samanta a Vipra of the Vatsa kula.
विप्र श्री वत्स गोत्रे भूदहिच्छ्त्रपुरे पुरा । सामन्तोअनन्त सामन्त: पूर्नतल्लो नृपस्तत: ॥ तस्माच्छ्री :जयराजविग्रहनृपौ-श्री चन्द्रगोपेन्द्रकौ । तस्मादुर्लभ गूबको शशिनृपौ-गूवाकसच्चन्दनौ ॥ Epigraphia Indica, Vol.3
http://www.jatland.com/home/Bijolia_Bhilwara

So faced with all these Brahman dynasties ruling north India, a theory was developed. This is the Khazar-Hephathlite Hun theory. According to this theory the Khazars were the priests of these Huns, and later became Rajputs.
Campbell and Bhandarkar were the main proponents of this theory: http://books.google.com/books?id=gUAvuYu-otEC&pg=PA59

In my opinion, all of the above is suspect. In one the records written (Desavali-vivriti by Pandit Jagamohan) about our caste, we are called of Gurjjar origin and were dislodged from the Yamuna to settle further down the Ganges.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA46&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0HkTSBGW3rSS5EC8GTdArGDOcElg&ci=401%2C302%2C373%2C175&edge=0

I can't speak for all Gurjjars, but as I am L657-Y9-Y2392, and as no L657 has been found anywhere in Khazar lands, then at least our Gurjjar line was not Khazar!
Yeah that Khazar connection is a real stretch. Even the Hephthalite one is a guess, we know they were in the region, we don't know what became of them. They didn't become Jatts I'm pretty sure, at least not most of them and they didn't become Gujjar I would bet. The origin of Gujjar is mostly a mystery too like the rest of these groups.

Dr_McNinja
12-18-2013, 11:04 PM
And all those groups are outsiders.Their origin was outside but they are locals now. No one in the world will consider any of these groups to be anything other than South Asians now. They speak South Asian languages and have South Asian cultures. Calling the Brahmin outsiders at this point in history is a little silly.

Mehrdad
12-18-2013, 11:26 PM
Their origin was outside but they are locals now. No one in the world will consider any of these groups to be anything other than South Asians now. They speak South Asian languages and have South Asian cultures. Calling the Brahmin outsiders at this point in history is a little silly.

Wait, Brahmans were originally outsiders? sorry my knowledge of south asian culture is scant since I wasn't born and bought up in the region

Dr_McNinja
12-18-2013, 11:37 PM
Wait, Brahmans were originally outsiders? sorry my knowledge of south asian culture is scant since I wasn't born and bought up in the regionProbably. A really long time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia

parasar
12-19-2013, 12:06 AM
...

I didn't know you were Y9, all this time I thought you were Y7.

I had not tested for Y7 with FTDNA. It is now confirmed negative as per YFull. YF01382 https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1a1dWUlNJWHY3Ync/edit
So we have a common ancestor not at the Y7 but at the Y9 level!
While your Y7 ancestors were guarding the Khyber, mine were probably further east.

BMG
12-19-2013, 02:11 AM
parasar you took FG test ?

parasar
12-19-2013, 02:56 AM
parasar you took FG test ?

Yes that is correct.

List of private SNP's
Private SNP (99%): 24
FGC7406+
FGC7414+
FGC7415+
FGC7416+
FGC7420+
FGC7421+
FGC7422+
FGC7423+
FGC7424+
FGC7425+
FGC7426+
FGC7427+
FGC7428+
FGC7429+
FGC7430+
FGC7431+
FGC7432+
FGC7433+
FGC7434+
FGC7435+
FGC7436+
FGC7437+
FGC7443+
FGC7444+

Private Indel (99%): 3
FGC7445+
FGC7447+
FGC3217+

Private SNP (95%): 15
FGC7407+
FGC7408+
FGC7409+
FGC7410+
FGC7411+
FGC7412+
FGC7413+
FGC7417+
FGC7418+
FGC7419+
FGC7438+
FGC7439+
FGC7440+
FGC7441+
FGC7442+

Private Indel (95%) 1
FGC7446+

Private SNP (40%): 69
Private Indel (40%): 10
Many at SNPs and Indels at unreliable 10% level.

Total 'private' high quality mutation (95%+): 43

Summary by Michał:

Based on the preliminary analysis of the variantCompare file that kit N12617 received from FGC, it seems that he shows the following number of SNPs at each level between Z645 and his "private" level:

3 SNPs at the Z93 level (Z93, Z95 and Z2479, all previously known),
2 SNPs at the Z94 level (Z94, L342, both previously known),
8 SNPs at the L657 level, including 6 mutations that have been previously reported by YFull (L657, Y2, Y3, Y13, Y26, Y27), one "new" good quality marker M605, and one marker of much lower quality (22479878, G->T) that is probably located in a region that is not easily sequenced (though I am pretty convinced that it is specifically associated with L657, at least when branch Z93 alone is considered),
1 SNP at the Y9 level,
1 SNP (FGC7398) shared with all known Y9(xY7) samples (HG03899, HG04098, NA20904),
5 SNPs (FGC7399, FGC7400, FGC7401, FGC7402, FGC7404) shared with HG03899 and HG04098 only,
1 SNP (FGC7405) shared with HG04098 only.

Together, there are 21 mutations downstream of Z645 and upstream of his private mutations. The number of his private mutations (currently 43 high quality mutations, as reported in detail by parasar in another thread) may significantly change after his BAM file is analyzed by YFull. Also, it seems that YFull will not consider the above 22479878, G->T mutation (at the L657 level) as reliable. As far as I know from Semargl, they don't currently report any mutations found in such regions.

Here are the chromosomal positions for all those seven non-private SNPs below Y9:
FGC7398, 16303284 G->A
FGC7399, 6780908 A->G
FGC7400, 9169903 A->C
FGC7401, 14860054 G->C
FGC7402, 16391394 C->T
FGC7404, 28503901 G->T
FGC7405, 5659815 A->T

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=463&start=170

paulgill
12-19-2013, 06:21 AM
Probably. A really long time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia

Dr_McNinja, what kind of a doctor are you? Will you please identify yourself, ethnic group and area etc? You surely seem to have nothing to do with Jatts.

paulgill
12-19-2013, 06:46 AM
I had not tested for Y7 with FTDNA. It is now confirmed negative as per YFull. YF01382 https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1a1dWUlNJWHY3Ync/edit
So we have a common ancestor not at the Y7 but at the Y9 level!
While your Y7 ancestors were guarding the Khyber, mine were probably further east.

I thought you are a Punjabi Brahman? Thanks for posting your FG results.

paulgill
12-19-2013, 06:52 AM
Wait, Brahmans were originally outsiders? sorry my knowledge of south asian culture is scant since I wasn't born and bought up in the region

I think the guy is here with an agenda, it is useless to argue with such a person. He doesn't even know that the very name of the ethnic group is not Indian. Mehrdad, are you a pashtune?

paulgill
12-19-2013, 09:21 AM
Yeah that Khazar connection is a real stretch. Even the Hephthalite one is a guess, we know they were in the region, we don't know what became of them. They didn't become Jatts I'm pretty sure, at least not most of them and they didn't become Gujjar I would bet. The origin of Gujjar is mostly a mystery too like the rest of these groups.

Can you name a single group whose origin is not a mystery?

paulgill
12-19-2013, 09:41 AM
Their origin was outside but they are locals now. No one in the world will consider any of these groups to be anything other than South Asians now. They speak South Asian languages and have South Asian cultures. Calling the Brahmin outsiders at this point in history is a little silly.

I thought we were talking about the origin of specific ethnic groups. Try to sell your opinion of Brahmins being of south asian origin to a Dravidian.

paulgill
12-19-2013, 10:01 AM
Probably. A really long time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia

Are you trying to say that brahmins are in southasia for ........ years?

Mehrdad
12-19-2013, 04:47 PM
I think the guy is here with an agenda, it is useless to argue with such a person. He doesn't even know that the very name of the ethnic group is not Indian. Mehrdad, are you a pashtune?

Hi paulgill

My grandfather is a Pashtun from Lahore, he left prior to the partition. Me personally, I'm a mixed mutt with multiple ancestries :)

Mehrdad
12-19-2013, 05:20 PM
I had not tested for Y7 with FTDNA. It is now confirmed negative as per YFull. YF01382 https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1a1dWUlNJWHY3Ync/edit
So we have a common ancestor not at the Y7 but at the Y9 level!
While your Y7 ancestors were guarding the Khyber, mine were probably further east.

Hi parasar, what's the difference between the Big Y and the FG tests?! I'm thinking of taking the Big Y when they offer another discount.

AJL
12-19-2013, 05:31 PM
Hi parasar, what's the difference between the Big Y and the FG tests?! I'm thinking of taking the Big Y when they offer another discount.

There's a long discussion on that here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?742-Full-Y-Chromosome-Sequencing-Phase-III-Pilot

parasar
12-19-2013, 06:22 PM
I thought you are a Punjabi Brahman? Thanks for posting your FG results.

No, I'm not a Punjabi. HRP0003 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdGE4eDh6emt1dUs2U2pXTkVjS0lsV1E&hl=en#gid=0
While the link says Bihari Brahmin, our caste is better known as Bhumihar or Babhan (Pali form of Brahman), called by British officials "military brahmins."
Essentially we were/are an agricultural class. http://books.google.com/books?id=CWzuCykUKV4C&pg=PA147

The reference that I had mentioned in Post # 89 calls us Gurjjar, and the book looks to be very reliable. It is a compendium of the situation of India just prior to the British, though the Portuguese and perhaps the French were already in India as Firangis are mentioned as being present in the south.

The work is in the form of an interlo-cution between Dulala Vaijala or Deva Vaijala, the patron, and Jagamohan, the compiler. The patron died in the year 1650
A. D. This date is given in three difierent eras, namely, Saka, Sam vat and Kali Yuga. Saka 1572, Kali Yuga 4750 and the Samvat Era is lost. We have Vikramasya ca ''■' but the chronogram is lost. It may be supposed that by that time the gazetteer of fifty-six countries was either complete or very nearly so. But the death of Vaijala was followed by disorder and the work was neglected. Some parts were lost and the whole was in confusion. The words used in the text are—" Chinna, bhinna-", etc. Many years after his death, the Maga-Brahma- nas or the Magii or the Sakadvipi Brahmanas of the village, which was the home of the Vaijala family, recompiled and revised the fragments available, and in doing so they added the history of the intervening period. They took ten years to revise the work and the dates when reduced to Christian Era come to 1718 and 1728.
http://archive.org/stream/journalofbiharre04bihauoft/journalofbiharre04bihauoft_djvu.txt


Therefore, perhaps our early name was Gurjjar Brahman when we on the Yamuna and then with the Turkish invasions moved east (the book above just calls the invaders Yavana which is a generic word used for all invaders) and merged with the Babhans.

There is an interesting take on a website on Gurjjar Brahmans:
http://horsesandswords.blogspot.com/2012/01/colonial-myths-on-ancient-province.html#The case of the Gurjara Brahmans
and gives this map which make a lot of sense to me.http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-79Bz1L6Q1bU/TzxpMen8b0I/AAAAAAAABL0/I4TDl2fRHAQ/s1600/Gujjar_Gurjara_Brahman_map.jpg

If you note in the above map, there is a settlement in the Punjab region and the Yamuna region. In both those locations, our family traditions hold that we had connections, with Mohyals and Gaur Tyagis, respectively. But the Gurjara connection was forgotten. Mohyal legends on the other hand do retain recollections of a presence in the Gurjara region near the Narmada and Tapti rivers.

References:
"Gurjara" http://books.google.com/books?id=YnEBFRMPTmUC&pg=PA8

"The earliest records that can be unquestionably allotted to members of this family [Gurjjar], are of the time of Dadda II.4 Two of them are copperplate charters which were obtained at Kaira, the chief town of the Kaira District, Bombay Presidency ... for which the form Akuleivara occurs elsewhere,3 — has been rightly identified by Dr. Buhler with the modern Ankleshwar, the chief town of the Ankleshwar taluka in the Broach District" http://books.google.com/books?id=MRYIAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA307

The Mohyal records say that they were present on the banks of the Amravati river in Gujarat. "Amravati ke kenare par Raja Dahar Mal laryo Bich Gujrat baje fateh ke nakare ji. - Dahar Mal fought with the Sultan on the- bank of the river Amravati and killed many of his men. The rest of the Sultan's army fled across the river and Raja Dahar's victory was proclaimed in Gujrat." The History of the Muhiyals: The Militant Brahman Race of India, 1938

"Muhial ... cultivate land, ... a connection is claimed with the Bhunhar or Bhumihar community of Bihar and the United Provinces...Tradition also declares that Raja Dahar defeated a Sultan on the banks of the AmravatiJ across which river the beaten army fled; and Dahar's victory was proclaimed at Gujrat."
http://books.google.com/books?id=UQUtQzPtC6wC&pg=PA132

Now this river has apparently become a nala-stream but there indeed is such a river near Ankleshwar! "Those killed and the 25 injured among others were travelling in a state transport bus which fell into Amravati river on national highway no 8, about 5 km from Ankleshwar." http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2006-12-21/ahmedabad/27797302_1_bus-driver-bus-accident-ankleshwar

Now that I have near exhaustively researched available sources, Full Genome scans can perhaps provide some conformation. Comparing STRs, one of my best matches happens to be a Bal Jatt. Unfortunately what I could find on the web about them looks peculiar and fanciful. http://www.jatland.com/home/Bal
Do you (or does anyone else) happen to have some traditional information on this clan?

parasar
12-19-2013, 06:25 PM
Hi parasar, what's the difference between the Big Y and the FG tests?! I'm thinking of taking the Big Y when they offer another discount.

I think they should be about the same. A few have ordered both and once Big Y results start coming in we should be able to compare.

paulgill
12-19-2013, 07:01 PM
Hi parasar, what's the difference between the Big Y and the FG tests?! I'm thinking of taking the Big Y when they offer another discount.

It covers about half of FG and no STRs either. FG gives you 442 STRs also.

paulgill
12-19-2013, 07:18 PM
I think Bal is an ancient Scythian Massagetae clan. We are in relationship with this clan and you will find this surname and its variations among Europeans because the source is the same.

Mehrdad
12-21-2013, 04:45 AM
Thanks for that, makes me wonder if the STRs in South Asia are older than Europeans for R1a1, why are the SNPs for R1a1 older in Europe? If I didn't make sense my apologies.

parasar
12-21-2013, 05:04 AM
Thanks for that, makes me wonder if the STRs in South Asia are older than Europeans for R1a1, why are the SNPs for R1a1 older in Europe? If I didn't make sense my apologies.

Europe has some lineages (in eastern Europe and Scandinavia) that expanded recently and that reduces the overall STR based age.
Overall I would say that the age of European and South Asian R1a1 is about the same (give or take a few thousand years) with the South Siberian and Chinese (modern region, not people) older.

Dr. Klyosov may have accurately pointed this out:
"R1a1 ... common ancestors in the regions from South Siberia and northern/northwestern China ... South Siberia and/or neighboring regions, around 20,000 ybp ... Not later than 12,000 ybp bearers of R1a1 already were in the Hindustan, then went across Anatolia and the rest of Asia Minor apparently between 10,000 and 9000 ybp, and around 9000 - 8000 ybp they arrived to the Balkans and spread over Europe east to the British Isles."
http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2012.21001

The movements of R1a1 to India and to Europe were from a common source but independent.

Dr_McNinja
12-21-2013, 05:48 AM
Europe has some lineages (in eastern Europe and Scandinavia) that expanded recently and that reduces the overall STR based age.
Overall I would say that the age of European and South Asian R1a1 is about the same (give or take a few thousand years) with the South Siberian and Chinese (modern region, not people) older.

Dr. Klyosov may have accurately pointed this out:
"R1a1 ... common ancestors in the regions from South Siberia and northern/northwestern China ... South Siberia and/or neighboring regions, around 20,000 ybp ... Not later than 12,000 ybp bearers of R1a1 already were in the Hindustan, then went across Anatolia and the rest of Asia Minor apparently between 10,000 and 9000 ybp, and around 9000 - 8000 ybp they arrived to the Balkans and spread over Europe east to the British Isles."
http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2012.21001

The movements of R1a1 to India and to Europe were from a common source but independent.What about that new theory that the R haplogroup arose in Southeast Asia? Did it split into R1a, R1b, R2, etc in India?

Or did a more recent migration of R1a1 from Central Asia (back?) into India muddy the waters so to speak, making it difficult to ascertain?

parasar
12-21-2013, 07:03 AM
What about that new theory that the R haplogroup arose in Southeast Asia? Did it split into R1a, R1b, R2, etc in India?

Or did a more recent migration of R1a1 from Central Asia (back?) into India muddy the waters so to speak, making it difficult to ascertain?

R itself is likely not of SE Asian origin. We see MP, S, N, M, O in SE Asia. Therefore P may have had a SE Asian or even South Asian origin as we see some P(xM207, xM242) in India. This along with the significant presence of M207/M479 makes it likely that P and R2 arose (or at least are now present) in India. For R1 I have seen no such evidence. R1 must have been born of P and R lines that migrated from India to Upper Eurasia including Eastern Europe. During the LGM time-frame R1 was born in South Siberia, NW China region.

While the R line is now dominant in Europe, we have to remember that the earlier population of Europe and West/South Asia was not R.

To make some sense of how this happened we have to imagine the spread of populations in layers. It appears that settlement was in these nested layers
1) CEDF 2) FGHIJLK 3) KMNOPS

The first CEDF is the earliest level of AMH settlement world-wide. The node of expansion could have been Africa, SE Asia, or anywhere in the middle.

The second FGHIJLK is West Eurasian - this stretches from Lanka/Maldives to Western Europe. The node of this expansion is also difficult to pinpoint, but to me West Asia looks most likely.

The KMNOPS expansion is pan-Eurasian and is a series of expansions emanating form Austronesia to South Asia and East Asia.

From the extent of its spread it appears that P was the first 40-50000ybp (slightly mongoloid but non EDAR), followed by NO after 17000ybp (again non EDAR) and then wrap-around C (i.e. East Asian C).

paulgill
12-21-2013, 09:42 AM
@Parasar, how distant is your relationship to Bal?

paulgill
12-21-2013, 11:21 AM
@Parasar, you might have read Bali Mohyal as Bal Jatt, Bali clan has Parasar gotra. We do have a Brahmin family from a village next to mine that my family is friends with for the last 4 generations at least and I thought their surname was Modgill Joshi, but now I think it must be Mohyal Joshi. Brahmins of that village own all the land there and not even a single Jatt is present in that village, but the other castes are there. It is surrounded by Jatt villages where Jatts own all the Land, though Brahmin families are also present in these villages, but they own no land.

You must be a Parasar of Bali Clan originally from the greater Punjab which once stretched from Indus to Jamuna.

parasar
12-21-2013, 06:36 PM
@Parasar, how distant is your relationship to Bal?

The separation is quite old - my estimate would be about 2000 years, i.e. if he is Y9+.


@Parasar, you might have read Bali Mohyal as Bal Jatt, Bali clan has Parasar gotra. We do have a Brahmin family from a village next to mine that my family is friends with for the last 4 generations at least and I thought their surname was Modgill Joshi, but now I think it must be Mohyal Joshi. Brahmins of that village own all the land there and not even a single Jatt is present in that village, but the other castes are there. It is surrounded by Jatt villages where Jatts own all the Land, though Brahmin families are also present in these villages, but they own no land.

You must be a Parasar of Bali Clan originally from the greater Punjab which once stretched from Indus to Jamuna.

Mudgil, if that is the name, is a different gotra.

The Bali connection is quite possible. When they were driven out Gujarat by the Arabs they initially landed in Mathura.
Muslim Balis still remained in Gujarat ( http://books.google.com/books?id=mB8YAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA25 ). The split must have occurred in Mathura with the Balis going to the Jammu and the Punjab while we stayed in UP. Then after the Turk invasion we were driven further east.

Another surprising issue is that Mohyals still carry Bengali type titles - Baidya, Datta, Sen, etc.

Many names of the Lau clan in Mohyal folklore and records closely match names from the Sena dynasty of Bengal, like Ballal Sen and Lau Sen. That, and the coinciding of the Lau clan's appearance in Punjab with the period when the Senas held territories North of Delhi, has led some historians to assert that the Laus descended from among the Senas[3] and are named after Lau Sen, consistent with the known phenomenon of a new clan or caste name coming into being with a notable ancestor. The name Lau Sen is famous in Bengali folklore as well,[4] and consistent with Mohyal tradition the Senas were also of Brahmin lineage but in a Kshatriya role. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lau_clan

The Brahmans in the Gujarat region also carried such titles. They were officials who were administrators for the Guptas. When the Gupta empire declined many of them assumed power and established semi-independent principalities. One of these was established in Vallabipur - and that is reason the Vallabhi era is the same as the Gupta era.
El-Beruni:
As regards the Guptakala, people say that the Guptas were wicked powerful people, and that when they ceased to exist this date was used as the epoch of an era. It seems that Valabha was the last of them, because the epoch of the era of the Guptas falls, like that of the Valabha era, 241 years later than the Sakakala.


Regarding "Indus to Jamuna," that looks like the region the Mohyals are spread. In the regions of Haryana and upper Jamuna-Ganga doab they are seen in the Gaur Tyagi form.
Mohyals also claim presence beyond the Khyber in Kabul and even beyond the Hindu Kush in Mazar/Balkh. There is some proof of these Brahman chiefs retreating from Kabul to Ohind/Attock to Lahore and then to Hastika, but there is nothing convincing connecting them to Mohyals.

El Beruni: "This Hindu Shahiya dynasty is now extinct, and of the whole house there is no longer the slightest remnant in existence."
Kalhan Pandit: "Hammira [Mahmud] though victorious in the field ... The Shahi took shelter in Hastika and made great efforts to retrieve his fortune. Thus have I briefly narrated the fall and extinction of the line of Shahi, and now the very existence of his kingdom of which I have spoken in the history of Shangkaravarmma, has become an object of doubt." http://books.google.com/books?id=fWMoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA173

Mehrdad
12-22-2013, 12:29 AM
R itself is likely not of SE Asian origin. We see MP, S, N, M, O in SE Asia. Therefore P may have had a SE Asian or even South Asian origin as we see some P(xM207, xM242) in India. This along with the significant presence of M207/M479 makes it likely that P and R2 arose (or at least are now present) in India. For R1 I have seen no such evidence. R1 must have been born of P and R lines that migrated from India to Upper Eurasia including Eastern Europe. During the LGM time-frame R1 was born in South Siberia, NW China region.

While the R line is now dominant in Europe, we have to remember that the earlier population of Europe and West/South Asia was not R.

To make some sense of how this happened we have to imagine the spread of populations in layers. It appears that settlement was in these nested layers
1) CEDF 2) FGHIJLK 3) KMNOPS

The first CEDF is the earliest level of AMH settlement world-wide. The node of expansion could have been Africa, SE Asia, or anywhere in the middle.

The second FGHIJLK is West Eurasian - this stretches from Lanka/Maldives to Western Europe. The node of this expansion is also difficult to pinpoint, but to me West Asia looks most likely.

The KMNOPS expansion is pan-Eurasian and is a series of expansions emanating form Austronesia to South Asia and East Asia.

From the extent of its spread it appears that P was the first 40-50000ybp (slightly mongoloid but non EDAR), followed by NO after 17000ybp (again non EDAR) and then wrap-around C (i.e. East Asian C).

Thanks for this explanation, its starting to paint a picture on our ancestors migration pattern.

parasar
12-23-2013, 05:44 PM
Evon, if you want to see a European breakdown of some South Asians, I compiled some Eurogenes results of South Asian posters here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

There looks to be some above noise connection to Mordvin-Kargopol/Eastern Europe (5.38%) and Kent/North Sea (5.82%) in my data.

I recall a few years back looking at Kent as a peculiar spot in England to have land holdings like we had. I had posted above in the thread that we are often called Bhumihar. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1707-Relative-finder-distribution-of-South-Asian-Caste-and-Tribal-Haplogroups&p=23793&viewfull=1#post23793

We used to hold land without incident, Bhumia tenure, with no primogeniture but the youngest son often got an extra share of the property. While there was no obligation to pay taxes, we were required to defend the land. http://books.google.com/books?id=A8RBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA284 http://books.google.com/books?id=WnLiPiPPEowC&pg=PA30

Something similar was present in Kent - Gavelkind.

Gavelkind, an example of customary law in England, was thought to have existed before the Norman Conquest of 1066, but generally was superseded by the feudal law of primogeniture. Its survival (until as late as 1925) in one part of the country, is regarded as a concession by the Conqueror to the people of Kent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavelkind

Orkney/Shetland - udal

Allodium, meaning "land exempt from feudal duties", is first attested in English-language texts in the 11th-century Domesday Book, but was borrowed from Old Low Franconian *allōd, meaning "full property", and attested in Latin as e.g., alodis, alaudes, in the Salic law (ca. A.D. 507–596) and other Germanic laws. The word is a compound of *all "whole, full" and *ōd "estate, property" (cf. Old Saxon ōd, Old English ead, Old Norse auπr).[6] Allodial tenure seems to have been common throughout northern Europe, but is now unknown in common law jurisdictions apart from the United States. Allodial titles are known as udal tenure in Orkney and Shetland, the only parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland where they exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title

Regarding the connection to the Mordvin/Moksha, it could be from the Buddhist period or even remote. Many of these Turko-Mongol tribes were at one time Buddhistic and had a significance to the number 108.
Eg. "The 108 Forms of Avalokitesvara Drawn by Nepalese Artists http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw44/bk147.html
and Huns and Magyar "Hungarian version" summary:

land of Evilath, following the confusion of languages ... This land was latter called east Persia, and lay next to Northern India. Here he married his first wife Eneth and she later bore him two twin sons called Hunor and Magor. He later had other wives and from them were born other sons and daughters who became the ancestors of the Parthians/?/Persians... Enchanted by the heavenly beast they gave chase to it. The animal lead them across glades and medows onward toward the west. At dusk the beast vanished so the two princes and their men camped for the night. At dawn the hind reappeared and the chase continued afresh. It lead them through foreign lands and across the mountains of Adjem (western Iran), through wild and dangerous swamps of Meotis ...
The two young men were so enchanted by the two princesses that they resolved to marry them, so they and their men kidnapped all the women and married them according to their custom. They settled on a great island in the lake, which was well protected. Their descendants multiplied and populated the nearby lands, founding the 108 clans of the Scythian nation.
...
http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/stagg.htm


Perhaps just coincidences, but worth noting nonetheless.

Dr_McNinja
12-23-2013, 06:40 PM
There looks to be some above noise connection to Mordvin-Kargopol/Eastern Europe (5.38%) and Kent/North Sea (5.82%) in my data.

I recall a few years back looking at Kent as a peculiar spot in England to have land holdings like we had. I had posted above in the thread that we are often called Bhumihar. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1707-Relative-finder-distribution-of-South-Asian-Caste-and-Tribal-Haplogroups&p=23793&viewfull=1#post23793

We used to hold land without incident, Bhumia tenure, with no primogeniture but the youngest son often got an extra share of the property. While there was no obligation to pay taxes, we were required to defend the land. http://books.google.com/books?id=A8RBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA284 http://books.google.com/books?id=WnLiPiPPEowC&pg=PA30

Something similar was present in Kent - Gavelkind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavelkind

Orkney/Shetland - udal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title

Regarding the connection to the Mordvin/Moksha, it could be from the Buddhist period or even remote. Many of these Turko-Mongol tribes were at one time Buddhistic and had a significance to the number 108.
Eg. "The 108 Forms of Avalokitesvara Drawn by Nepalese Artists http://www.yogichen.org/cw/cw44/bk147.html
and Huns and Magyar "Hungarian version" summary:

http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/stagg.htm


Perhaps just coincidences, but worth noting nonetheless.Very interesting. Perhaps coincidental but I do think the varied Eurogenes breakdown points to possibly ancestral links to our autosomal European signature. I think the various European groupings (pre-Germanic, Germanic, Northern European, Eastern European, Turkic/Tatar) have corollaries since the ancestors of these same groups have had historical connections to Central and South Asia. I believe the Germanic and especially the pre-Germanic signature points to the original Indo-Aryans (most of the Brahmins have a strong link to this group, although my dad seems to have a similar relation). Germanic and North European might point to the Indo-Europeans from Central Asia around ~3kya (first millennium BC) (some might also say these are the main "Jatt" progenitors by internal legends, since they have the Jatt surnames). Eastern European could point to ~2kya. Turkic/Tatar could point to specifically Turkic links, etc.

But since it's not exact, it's usually a range. Depending on the rest of the genome, it could range from pre-Germanic to Germanic in an almost random fashion, but it likely won't show up as Eastern or Turkic for example. That's because modern Western European populations have had a lot of Germanic and pre-Germanic mixing so there's a margin for error introduced. So if your link is to Western European, it will vary or not vary but consistently show up as Western European. The exception is some of the Caucasian individuals (like the Afghan Pashtun) who, according to Dr. McDonald, make it hard to pin the European components because it's so close. As opposed to the case of Indians like us, where there's a starker contrast so it's easier to pick out the European component. McDonald couldn't figure out which part of Europe worked for HRP0370 so he picked the Balkans but in Eurogenes it's consistently showing a highly fluctuating Western/Northern component.

I think the West Caucasian and North Caucasian difference also points to a potentially significant historical link. Maybe not for the Afghans who have so much of it that it's almost random, but why, for instance, do some Indians have a more Western Caucasian link and why does it seem to correspond to a Western European link as well in some individuals? It could be signature of chronological events (i.e, migration events in a certain timeframe will show up as West Caucasian rather than North, same as the European breakdown). That there are any perceptible differences left is due to local endogamy (which prevented the leftover European admixture from becoming totally mixed), further linking these compositions to local areas.

Iranians show a consistent link to Southern Europe. Might be due to a Mediterranean link most likely. Sardinian on the other hand represents really old Europe probably.

The other thing I like about K36 is the entire HGDP Pakistan group (Baloch, Brahui, Burusho, Pathan, Sindhi, etc) acts like a really strong magnet, preventing from excess admixture being caught as European, in fact taking too much from certain individuals relative to their Harappa breakdown, leaving more of the identifiable European stuff.

neji
12-26-2013, 03:55 AM
highest dna share segment was 0.16% with some h2a female, don't know origins. 0.12% for south asia, russia/ukrain, us, france, patels (hes in us, but origin prolly same as mine, western india).

Maternal Haplogroup Paternal Haplogroup
H2a1 ---
M5b2a R1a1a
U8a1a ---
U4a2 H1a*
M5a R2
X2b I2a1*
K1a1 ---
M5a2a1 R1a1a
U2c C5
H17 I1*
U2c H1a*
H ---
U7 R1a1a
U5a2b ---
H39 J2a1b*
T1a1 N1c1*
H1e1 ---
HV0 I1*

neji
12-26-2013, 04:07 AM
The other thing I like about K36 is the entire HGDP Pakistan group (Baloch, Brahui, Burusho, Pathan, Sindhi, etc) acts like a really strong magnet, preventing from excess admixture being caught as European, in fact taking too much from certain individuals relative to their Harappa breakdown, leaving more of the identifiable European stuff.

Never understood wtf are those in the 'principle' population groups. I mean seriously, that region has been ravaged once every 100 years. So, its clearly some political motive to select those as principle groups of south asia.

parasar
12-28-2013, 06:45 PM
R itself is likely not of SE Asian origin. We see MP, S, N, M, O in SE Asia. Therefore P may have had a SE Asian or even South Asian origin as we see some P(xM207, xM242) in India. This along with the significant presence of M207/M479 makes it likely that P and R2 arose (or at least are now present) in India. For R1 I have seen no such evidence. R1 must have been born of P and R lines that migrated from India to Upper Eurasia including Eastern Europe. During the LGM time-frame R1 was born in South Siberia, NW China region.

While the R line is now dominant in Europe, we have to remember that the earlier population of Europe and West/South Asia was not R.

To make some sense of how this happened we have to imagine the spread of populations in layers. It appears that settlement was in these nested layers
1) CEDF 2) FGHIJLK 3) KMNOPS

The first CEDF is the earliest level of AMH settlement world-wide. The node of expansion could have been Africa, SE Asia, or anywhere in the middle.

The second FGHIJLK is West Eurasian - this stretches from Lanka/Maldives to Western Europe. The node of this expansion is also difficult to pinpoint, but to me West Asia looks most likely.

The KMNOPS expansion is pan-Eurasian and is a series of expansions emanating form Austronesia to South Asia and East Asia.

From the extent of its spread it appears that P was the first 40-50000ybp (slightly mongoloid but non EDAR), followed by NO after 17000ybp (again non EDAR) and then wrap-around C (i.e. East Asian C).


This calculator is somewhat inapplicable to me, since 5%-15% of my genetic ancestry is derived from an ancient population of South Eurasians, and they aren't accounted for in this model. Nevertheless, I'm predominantly West Eurasian, and my largest component for K13 is "West Asian", so I thought it might be fun to see what this makes of me.

Results:
EEF 59.45%
WHG 24.20%
ANE 16.33%

I'm tempted to treat my "ANE" percentage as capturing all of my non-West Eurasian admixture, since I'm consistently 4%-6% Siberian-Amerindian on most calculators, along with the 10% "ASI". But that wouldn't be accurate, since I'm 9.39% Baltic, and 1.53% North_Atlantic.


I had a feeling WHG was actually somewhat ASI for non europeans when Sein first posted his results. Thanks for confirming it.


I think Sein's and newtoboard's observations are very interesting. My thinking is that ASI is actually more a part of all three, especially EEF.
We are seeing the undercurrent of old layers followed by the ANE. The ANE looks correspond well to the spread of P(KMNOPS). Followed by: "gene flow into some northeastern Europeans after the initial ANE admixture, and may be related to the fact that Y-chromosome haplogroup N30, 31 is shared between Siberian and northeastern Europeans 32, 33 but not with western Europeans. There may in fact be multiple layers of Siberian gene flow into northeastern Europe after the initial ANE gene flow, as our analyses reported in SI 12 show that some Mordovians, Russians and Chuvash have Siberian-related admixture that is significantly more recent than that in Finns (SI12)."

The FGHIJLK West Eurasian would seem to correspond to both WHG and EEF.

So where is the oldest CEDF AMH worldwide? - it is this that best corresponds to ASI, IMO.

neji
12-31-2013, 02:24 AM
No, I'm not a Punjabi. HRP0003 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdGE4eDh6emt1dUs2U2pXTkVjS0lsV1E&hl=en#gid=0
While the link says Bihari Brahmin, our caste is better known as Bhumihar or Babhan (Pali form of Brahman), called by British officials "military brahmins."
Essentially we were/are an agricultural class. http://books.google.com/books?id=CWzuCykUKV4C&pg=PA147

The reference that I had mentioned in Post # 89 calls us Gurjjar, and the book looks to be very reliable. It is a compendium of the situation of India just prior to the British, though the Portuguese and perhaps the French were already in India as Firangis are mentioned as being present in the south.

http://archive.org/stream/journalofbiharre04bihauoft/journalofbiharre04bihauoft_djvu.txt


Therefore, perhaps our early name was Gurjjar Brahman when we on the Yamuna and then with the Turkish invasions moved east (the book above just calls the invaders Yavana which is a generic word used for all invaders) and merged with the Babhans.

There is an interesting take on a website on Gurjjar Brahmans:
http://horsesandswords.blogspot.com/2012/01/colonial-myths-on-ancient-province.html#The case of the Gurjara Brahmans
and gives this map which make a lot of sense to me.http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-79Bz1L6Q1bU/TzxpMen8b0I/AAAAAAAABL0/I4TDl2fRHAQ/s1600/Gujjar_Gurjara_Brahman_map.jpg

If you note in the above map, there is a settlement in the Punjab region and the Yamuna region. In both those locations, our family traditions hold that we had connections, with Mohyals and Gaur Tyagis, respectively. But the Gurjara connection was forgotten. Mohyal legends on the other hand do retain recollections of a presence in the Gurjara region near the Narmada and Tapti rivers.

References:
"Gurjara" http://books.google.com/books?id=YnEBFRMPTmUC&pg=PA8

"The earliest records that can be unquestionably allotted to members of this family [Gurjjar], are of the time of Dadda II.4 Two of them are copperplate charters which were obtained at Kaira, the chief town of the Kaira District, Bombay Presidency ... for which the form Akuleivara occurs elsewhere,3 — has been rightly identified by Dr. Buhler with the modern Ankleshwar, the chief town of the Ankleshwar taluka in the Broach District" http://books.google.com/books?id=MRYIAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA307

The Mohyal records say that they were present on the banks of the Amravati river in Gujarat. "Amravati ke kenare par Raja Dahar Mal laryo Bich Gujrat baje fateh ke nakare ji. - Dahar Mal fought with the Sultan on the- bank of the river Amravati and killed many of his men. The rest of the Sultan's army fled across the river and Raja Dahar's victory was proclaimed in Gujrat." The History of the Muhiyals: The Militant Brahman Race of India, 1938

"Muhial ... cultivate land, ... a connection is claimed with the Bhunhar or Bhumihar community of Bihar and the United Provinces...Tradition also declares that Raja Dahar defeated a Sultan on the banks of the AmravatiJ across which river the beaten army fled; and Dahar's victory was proclaimed at Gujrat."
http://books.google.com/books?id=UQUtQzPtC6wC&pg=PA132

Now this river has apparently become a nala-stream but there indeed is such a river near Ankleshwar! "Those killed and the 25 injured among others were travelling in a state transport bus which fell into Amravati river on national highway no 8, about 5 km from Ankleshwar." http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2006-12-21/ahmedabad/27797302_1_bus-driver-bus-accident-ankleshwar

Now that I have near exhaustively researched available sources, Full Genome scans can perhaps provide some conformation. Comparing STRs, one of my best matches happens to be a Bal Jatt. Unfortunately what I could find on the web about them looks peculiar and fanciful. http://www.jatland.com/home/Bal
Do you (or does anyone else) happen to have some traditional information on this clan?


Seems like you are somewhat kayasta-ish caste ?

parasar
12-31-2013, 05:55 AM
Seems like you are somewhat kayasta-ish caste ?

No. Kayastha (in our lingo Kayath) were scribes, while we were nominally brahmans but as agriculturists barely literate in the past. Among Gurjar brahmans our equivalent would be Desais and perhaps Nagars. In the Maharatha/Konkan areas Gaurs and Chitpavans. We do have a Chitponia Babhan subsection.

A section of Chitpavan Brahmins migrated to Magadh and got settled in and around the present day Navaadaa region! Today they are a subcaste of Bhumihar Brahmins and are called as "Chitponia Babhans". http://www.nasikchitpavan.org/history-of-chitpavans.php

Dinoyus
12-31-2013, 08:02 PM
i think one rajasthani rajput had J1 in Sengupta study.
Jatts have large number of clans, so many haplogroups will be present.
There are around 1 crore Jatts(17% of population) in Rajasthan.

Dinoyus
12-31-2013, 08:25 PM
India has large number of castes. Some are as big as Jatts and Gujjars who can be termed as separate ethnic group because of their heavy population in NW India.
So a great study is required.

paulgill
01-02-2014, 09:00 AM
India has large number of castes. Some are as big as Jatts and Gujjars who can be termed as separate ethnic group because of their heavy population in NW India.
So a great study is required.

Jatts and Gujjars are not castes but ethnic groups. Jatts never accepted the supremacy of Brahmins, refused to be second to them.

paulgill
01-02-2014, 09:02 AM
Gujjars and Kamboh may also have high NE component.

paulgill
01-02-2014, 09:05 AM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?749-Brahmin-Y-DNA-results-from-Jammu-Kashmir

jatt2016
02-14-2016, 04:03 PM
Pashtun (Sein)
Note: Many non south Asian matches

1058




Punjabi Jatt (Paul Gill)



1059



hi soul, I recently had my DNA tested by Nat Geo. My paternal is J-CTS2906....I am wondering if I can get the Pie chart.....how can I get a pie chart for my DNA?

Ali16
05-14-2016, 10:23 AM
hi soul, I recently had my DNA tested by Nat Geo. My paternal is J-CTS2906....I am wondering if I can get the Pie chart.....how can I get a pie chart for my DNA?

How can you be positive for J-CTS2906 when you are H-M69?
Negative for M304, M172, M410, L26, M67 ... Why don't you order a M92 SNP pack for $39?

purohit
06-09-2018, 11:38 AM
No, I'm not a Punjabi. HRP0003 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdGE4eDh6emt1dUs2U2pXTkVjS0lsV1E&hl=en#gid=0
While the link says Bihari Brahmin, our caste is better known as Bhumihar or Babhan (Pali form of Brahman), called by British officials "military brahmins."
Essentially we were/are an agricultural class. http://books.google.com/books?id=CWzuCykUKV4C&pg=PA147

The reference that I had mentioned in Post # 89 calls us Gurjjar, and the book looks to be very reliable. It is a compendium of the situation of India just prior to the British, though the Portuguese and perhaps the French were already in India as Firangis are mentioned as being present in the south.

http://archive.org/stream/journalofbiharre04bihauoft/journalofbiharre04bihauoft_djvu.txt


Therefore, perhaps our early name was Gurjjar Brahman when we on the Yamuna and then with the Turkish invasions moved east (the book above just calls the invaders Yavana which is a generic word used for all invaders) and merged with the Babhans.

There is an interesting take on a website on Gurjjar Brahmans:
http://horsesandswords.blogspot.com/2012/01/colonial-myths-on-ancient-province.html#The case of the Gurjara Brahmans
and gives this map which make a lot of sense to me.http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-79Bz1L6Q1bU/TzxpMen8b0I/AAAAAAAABL0/I4TDl2fRHAQ/s1600/Gujjar_Gurjara_Brahman_map.jpg

If you note in the above map, there is a settlement in the Punjab region and the Yamuna region. In both those locations, our family traditions hold that we had connections, with Mohyals and Gaur Tyagis, respectively. But the Gurjara connection was forgotten. Mohyal legends on the other hand do retain recollections of a presence in the Gurjara region near the Narmada and Tapti rivers.

References:
"Gurjara" http://books.google.com/books?id=YnEBFRMPTmUC&pg=PA8

"The earliest records that can be unquestionably allotted to members of this family [Gurjjar], are of the time of Dadda II.4 Two of them are copperplate charters which were obtained at Kaira, the chief town of the Kaira District, Bombay Presidency ... for which the form Akuleivara occurs elsewhere,3 — has been rightly identified by Dr. Buhler with the modern Ankleshwar, the chief town of the Ankleshwar taluka in the Broach District" http://books.google.com/books?id=MRYIAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA307

The Mohyal records say that they were present on the banks of the Amravati river in Gujarat. "Amravati ke kenare par Raja Dahar Mal laryo Bich Gujrat baje fateh ke nakare ji. - Dahar Mal fought with the Sultan on the- bank of the river Amravati and killed many of his men. The rest of the Sultan's army fled across the river and Raja Dahar's victory was proclaimed in Gujrat." The History of the Muhiyals: The Militant Brahman Race of India, 1938

"Muhial ... cultivate land, ... a connection is claimed with the Bhunhar or Bhumihar community of Bihar and the United Provinces...Tradition also declares that Raja Dahar defeated a Sultan on the banks of the AmravatiJ across which river the beaten army fled; and Dahar's victory was proclaimed at Gujrat."
http://books.google.com/books?id=UQUtQzPtC6wC&pg=PA132

Now this river has apparently become a nala-stream but there indeed is such a river near Ankleshwar! "Those killed and the 25 injured among others were travelling in a state transport bus which fell into Amravati river on national highway no 8, about 5 km from Ankleshwar." http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2006-12-21/ahmedabad/27797302_1_bus-driver-bus-accident-ankleshwar

Now that I have near exhaustively researched available sources, Full Genome scans can perhaps provide some conformation. Comparing STRs, one of my best matches happens to be a Bal Jatt. Unfortunately what I could find on the web about them looks peculiar and fanciful. http://www.jatland.com/home/Bal
Do you (or does anyone else) happen to have some traditional information on this clan?

We are also part of the 84 gurjara brahmins family. Pushkarna/pushtikar. Raja dahir sen last hindu king of sindh was also.pushkarna. Pushkarna lives in North gujarat Eastern sindh and western rajasthan.

redeyednewt
12-22-2018, 05:38 PM
I have friends and in-laws who are South Asian, most are Tamil but some are Sikh. I only know one who took a DNA test and it was done a decade or more and from National Geographic.