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Standardized Ape
11-02-2021, 08:52 PM
If this is accurate at all, I20509 is most likely from central/eastern Sweden. The others are probably just false calls.

Target: I20509
Distance: 1.9488% / 0.01948770
64.2 Norwegian
20.8 Latvian
15.0 Finnish

Zelto
11-02-2021, 09:23 PM
If this is accurate at all, I20509 is most likely from central/eastern Sweden. The others are probably just false calls.

Target: I20509
Distance: 1.9488% / 0.01948770
64.2 Norwegian
20.8 Latvian
15.0 Finnish

According to altvred, the calls for I20509 look good. Apparently there's only a single I1, so tentatively not expecting many samples from Scandinavia.

How does this guy compare to VK579? Less Finnish, more Baltic/Scandinavian?

Standardized Ape
11-02-2021, 09:44 PM
According to altvred, the calls for I20509 look good. Apparently there's only a single I1, so tentatively not expecting many samples from Scandinavia.

How does this guy compare to VK579? Less Finnish, more Baltic/Scandinavian?

VK579 picks up much more Finnish.

Target: Sweden_IA_1.SG:VK579.SG
Distance: 7.0102% / 0.07010165
56.2 Norwegian
43.8 Finnish

But this isn't Global 25 but a bootleg. It's better with distances. This guy looks pretty close to the siblings from Uppsala. I don't know much about these other samples.
https://i.imgur.com/aUQCiC1.png

parastais
11-05-2021, 06:56 AM
New Lithuanian autosomal study with few interesting findings:
Genome-Wide Landscape of North-Eastern European Populations: A View from Lithuania
https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4425/12/11/1730

A quote relevant to this topic:
«Genome wide SNP data results support moderate impact of Finno-Ugrian populations on Lithuanians and Latvians»

Off or on topic:
This is first time such a statement gets through papers and it is important for my new pet theory, sorry for changing those so quickly :-). N in Latvians and Lithuanians is from Brushed Pottery culture which got assimilated by Balts early centuries AD. I personally consider it likely (50/50) that BP was (or turned) Finnic (evidenced by Malaren axes in Lithuania) by Y lines and linguistically, but not so autosomally.

Few other quotes, that we knew already but good to have confirmed:
« The predominant genetic component of the Zemaitija region probably reflects the first early inhabitant ancestry of the Baltic region preserved in Lithuanians. »
« Meanwhile, in the Lithuanian region Aukstaitija, another predominant genetic component (in yellow) and in lower proportion (in green) was found (Supplementary Figure S5). This latter component is also largely preserved in Slavic populations.»

Zelto
11-05-2021, 07:09 PM
Off or on topic:
This is first time such a statement gets through papers and it is important for my new pet theory, sorry for changing those so quickly :-). N in Latvians and Lithuanians is from Brushed Pottery culture which got assimilated by Balts early centuries AD. I personally consider it likely (50/50) that BP was (or turned) Finnic (evidenced by Malaren axes in Lithuania) by Y lines and linguistically, but not so autosomally.

This sounds a lot like Lang's Southwest passage model. Doesn't the lack of N in Kivutkalns hurt this theory?

What changed your mind about the Barrows with Stone Circles bringing N-L1025?

parastais
11-05-2021, 08:52 PM
This sounds a lot like Lang's Southwest passage model. Doesn't the lack of N in Kivutkalns hurt this theory?

What changed your mind about the Barrows with Stone Circles bringing N-L1025?
Mainly I found etymological material on Belarus with identified Finnic toponyms, not the poor quality one before, but solid work. Including hybrid ones (Lintupi - lint Finnic bird and upi Baltic river), showing that Balts arrived after Finnics in Belarus. Highest N share is in NE Lithuania. And those Finnic toponyms are also close to Lithuanian border.
Besides I heard Nosevich stated BP could have been Finnic, and I was like- wow, that solves everything. BP was for very long believed to be Baltic, but what if?

Standardized Ape
11-06-2021, 11:05 AM
I20509 now has G25 coordinates...but I think there are some issues with quality/noise as the distance to moderns is a bit high.

https://i.imgur.com/AuktDdO.png

Target: Celtic_paper:I20509
Distance: 4.1551% / 0.04155058
77.4 Icelandic
14.8 Lithuanian_PZ
5.4 Finnish_North
1.6 Koinanbe
0.6 Basque_Spanish
0.2 Paniya

I'm pretty sure the coordinates are no good. Koinanbe(Papuan) might be Siberian or just plain noise.

parastais
11-06-2021, 01:04 PM
I20509 now has G25 coordinates...but I think there are some issues with quality/noise as the distance to moderns is a bit high.

https://i.imgur.com/AuktDdO.png

Target: Celtic_paper:I20509
Distance: 4.1551% / 0.04155058
77.4 Icelandic
14.8 Lithuanian_PZ
5.4 Finnish_North
1.6 Koinanbe
0.6 Basque_Spanish
0.2 Paniya

I'm pretty sure the coordinates are no good. Koinanbe(Papuan) might be Siberian or just plain noise.

I am some what lost, what is this Celtic paper everyone is talking about?

Standardized Ape
11-06-2021, 01:12 PM
I am some what lost, what is this Celtic paper everyone is talking about?

A paper about the genetic transition from Bell Beakers to pre-Roman Britons. 800 samples, mostly from Britain but some have to be from other places like the steppe as a few are identical to Yamnaya. We don't have much information about the samples yet.
I20509 could be a Viking, a Scandinavian who joined Anglo-Saxons or even an earlier arrival to Britain from Scandinavia. With the former two scenarios I suppose there would not be much relevance for N-L550 source.

Zelto
11-06-2021, 06:54 PM
Mainly I found etymological material on Belarus with identified Finnic toponyms, not the poor quality one before, but solid work. Including hybrid ones (Lintupi - lint Finnic bird and upi Baltic river), showing that Balts arrived after Finnics in Belarus. Highest N share is in NE Lithuania. And those Finnic toponyms are also close to Lithuanian border.
Besides I heard Nosevich stated BP could have been Finnic, and I was like- wow, that solves everything. BP was for very long believed to be Baltic, but what if?

I'm still not really convinced KAM axes can be associated with the spread of N-L550/L1025 in a meaningful way, but we have already discussed that in the IA Estonian thread. Also I don't think too much importance should be placed on the frequency of N in modern NE Lithuanians, that could be explained by any number of factors, not necessarily related to how N-L1025 initially arrived in the Baltic.

Although, if you are right about those toponyms, they would be hard to explain without Finnics taking the SW route.


I20509 could be a Viking, a Scandinavian who joined Anglo-Saxons or even an earlier arrival to Britain from Scandinavia. With the former two scenarios I suppose there would not be much relevance for N-L550 source.

I found I20509 in ph2ter's PCA with all the new samples. Approximate coordinates are something like -0.025, 0.075. He's definitely a bit of an outlier compared to the others in the study.

https://i.imgur.com/bNJWvx7.jpg

parastais
11-06-2021, 08:58 PM
Toponyms are these:
From Жучкевич (not full list):
Салабута, Мыза, Исса, Газьба, Лохозва, Койры, Лумна, Невда, Невежа, Войса, Комае, Ламбово, Дрисса, Ляйки, Важа, Иканы, Малмыги, Орпа, Лынтупы, Ижа
From here:
https://orda.of.by/....kevich/ktsb/144

English transcription:
Salabuta, Miza, Issa, Gazba, Lohozva, Koiri, Lumna, Neuda, Nevezha, Voisa, Komaye, Lambovo, Drissa, Laiki, Vazha, Ikani, Malmigi, Orpa, Lintupi, Izha.

parastais
11-07-2021, 01:50 PM
From other forum posting here, so it stays there as Viking Age Balts reference.
Baltic Gotlanders closest to modern Balts:
VK47
VK458
VK60
VK432
VK434
VK438
VK463
VK471
VK472
VK475
Archaic Baltic Gotlanders (closest modern folk Balts, but distance is higher):
VK462
VK464
VK439

Zelto
11-07-2021, 09:02 PM
I had to jog my memory a bit, but Lang believes (citing Egorejchenko) that Brushed or Striated pottery was strongly influenced by Dnieper-Dvina and D'yakovo cultures.

"I have called this network of water routes ‘the South-Western Passage’ (Lang, 2015) in order to set it apart from another impor-tant network of thoroughfares, the so-called North-Western Passage, which using the northern Russian rivers went from the Volga region to Karelia and interior Fennoscandia (see e.g. Kuz’minych, 1996, pg. 13). While the North-Western Passage was the main route for the distribution of Textile (or NE-Tapiola) Ware, the South-Western Passage was used by the people spreading the SW-Tapiola Ware – and probably also by the makers of Striated Pottery, keeping in mind the similarity of bone and antler artefacts of both groups (e.g. Luik & Maldre, 2007; Luik, 2013; Luik & Lang, 2013). Both the Dnieper-Dvina and the Upper-Oka archaeological cultures were located in the South-Western Passage. According to the distribution of Baltic hydronyms, these cultures might have belonged to the ancestors of some Baltic- (or Balto-Slavic-) speaking tribes. The regions immediately north of the latter belonged to western Finno-Ugrians"
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333176681_Fortified_Settlements_in_the_Eastern_Bal tic_From_Earlier_Research_to_New_Interpretations

If N-L1025 broke up in Western Russia (D'yakovo/Western Netted Ware) Baltic clades could have spread into the Brushed pottery culture, while the rest went north. Although, the arrival of hillforts, clay spindle whorls, Akozino-Mälar axes, bone pins and arrow heads, harpoons, etc. may be too early for N-L1025.

The elephant in the room is still the lack of N or "Finnic" admixture in Kivutkalns. It being the largest of these fortified settlements Lang's argument is based around.

There's some more on Brushed pottery here, including a map and some cool settlement reconstructions.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150402115429/http://www.spadczyna.com/history/reference/b_shtryh_k.htm

parastais
11-08-2021, 10:38 AM
Yes, you are right, Kivutkalns does not work here.
I think there was some argument (back when I discussed against SW passage :))) ) that some later Kivutkalns samples showed some affinity towards Kras or EST_IA, or was it just one sample? Can’t remember.

Anyway, I am giving 50-50 now. Not sold on either.

Standardized Ape
11-08-2021, 01:34 PM
I had a fairly informative exchange with Valter Lang about the route of Finnic speakers. I don't think he will mind if I post this here.



Alright, ____, I try to explain why I consider the Dvina route more plausible than any other.
First and most importantly, you cannot separate the tarands from the rest of evidence speaking about the coming from the east. The most essential here is the whole material culture, particularly ceramics. The spread of this material gives us the main route of communication: from Volga to upper Dnieper and from there to upper Dvina. This coming started already ca 500 years before the first tarand cemeteries occurred; thus, the latter are nothing but one more step in the chain of many arrivals - all using the same passage of water routes.
Second, all routes of communication of that time were water routes. It was very hard to go through dense forests, particularly with animals and children. So, we have good rivers from one side and dense forests on both the southern and northern sides of Lake Peipsi - your choice.
Third, if one supposes the route via Ilmen and Volkhov then all archaeological material we have from the 1st millennium BC from that region is different from that we have in Estonia and (north) Latvia around the Dvina. True, there are also several tarand graves discovered recently in Votic areas, but they are late in comparison with North-Estonian and Southwest-Finnish ones, shownig clearly the direction of impact from the west to the east and not vice versa.
Fourth, There are also early tarand graves in Latvia but they are insufficiently studied. Still, Strazde should belong to the very beginning of the pre-Roman period, not much later than Kunda. There are many examples of material culture demonstrating the distribution through the south-eastern passage but none showing any other.
Finally, I do not think that people settling at that time in what is today Latvia were Balts or that there were only Balts. But this is already another story.

All the best,
VL


Stradze should therefore be a deciding factor for a lot of things.

Zelto
11-08-2021, 07:14 PM
I had a fairly informative exchange with Valter Lang about the route of Finnic speakers. I don't think he will mind if I post this here.

What are your own thoughts after talking with him?


First and most importantly, you cannot separate the tarands from the rest of evidence speaking about the coming from the east. The most essential here is the whole material culture, particularly ceramics. The spread of this material gives us the main route of communication: from Volga to upper Dnieper and from there to upper Dvina. This coming started already ca 500 years before the first tarand cemeteries occurred; thus, the latter are nothing but one more step in the chain of many arrivals - all using the same passage of water routes.

Lang must be aware of Mittnik et al., right? It's arguably more relevant to the SW passage than Saag et al. was. Kivutkalns (besides being a fortified settlement) has the eastern influences on its material culture, that supposedly suggest mixed-bilingual inhabitants.

Either way, I don't think this was how N-L1025 entered the Baltic genepool. The hillfort wave is too early (end of the 2nd millennium BC) and if the immediate ancestors of the early-Tarands were in hillforts along the Daguava, Baltic Y-lines would have split upstream from the N-L550* (Y4706?) the Estonian Tarands had.


There are also early tarand graves in Latvia but they are insufficiently studied. Still, Strazde should belong to the very beginning of the pre-Roman period, not much later than Kunda.


Stradze should therefore be a deciding factor for a lot of things.

Unfortunately the dates of the early-Tarands are vague because of the Hallstatt plateau. 800-400BC is probably as accurate as it will get, unless Latvian Tarands are significantly older.

Admittingly, from an archeologist's perspective, the SW passage is the most robust model. My layman's opinion is that if this is the case, Daguava hillforts may have acted as trading hubs, while remaining genetically homogenous. This at least seems to be the case for Kivutkalns.

Standardized Ape
11-08-2021, 08:01 PM
What are your own thoughts after talking with him?


It is quite clear his ideas are based on a wealth of information entirely different from my own. His concern is not genetics and nuances thereof but the very large picture of material culture in which he sees a unified eastern element that is not simply Tarand or KAM. I'm sure he has a point or two, or three that can make a lot of the things I would sign look ridiculous. For now, I'll still favor an eastern path to Kunda although fairly close to the Latvian border and Finnic propagation from the area in a counter-clockwise fashion as that is what works for the genetic side(Y-DNA aside). That is something I'm not at all sure about though. Maybe 60% sure.

wejoja
11-12-2021, 11:26 PM
Here is the link to new interactive N-L550 map made by Mr. Jari Kinnunen from Haplotree Info Project…!
I have been helping him to gather data from different FTDNA projects. So from the top menu you can activate
the L550 colored subgroups on the map separately or together. Any ideas and comments are welcome...!

https://haplotree.info/maps/n-l550/

Standardized Ape
11-28-2021, 06:11 PM
There's a new basal L550 on YFull from Mogilev region of Belarus. He might be placed on some other branch later though.

Zelto
12-22-2021, 06:46 PM
According to the Supplementary Tables (S1-S9), altvred was correct about I20509 being N-L550.

His archeological context:

Iron Age (La Tène)
Thirty-one samples (19 petrous bones and 12 teeth) from individuals from the La Tène cemetery (c. fourth–third centuries BCE; La Tène B1b–La Tène C1b; see Velemínský and Dobisíková 1998; Kovařík and Sankot in press) were successfully analysed for aDNA.

A petrous bone from an individual aged over 17 years in double-grave 48 (Skeleton 48A; 2912; 48, P7A-16136), which contained fragments of an iron fibula, yielded sample I17321 (female); a tooth from the other individual in this grave, aged 18–25 years (Skeleton 48B; P6570; 48, P7A-16137) failed analysis.


• an individual aged 30–50 years in grave 42 (P6567; 42, P7A-16130), wearing an iron arm-ring, yielding sample I20509 (male)

So there's a Scandinavian looking N-L550 sample, from 400-200BC Czech La Tene culture.... huh. His coverage is 21.32% and mtDNA H7b.

parastais
12-23-2021, 01:46 PM
According to the Supplementary Tables (S1-S9), altvred was correct about I20509 being N-L550.

His archeological context:




So there's a Scandinavian looking N-L550 sample, from 400-200BC Czech La Tene culture.... huh. His coverage is 21.32% and mtDNA H7b.
Rurik’s great grand dad visited Czech Republic for some good beer :-)
What it tells is that likely Germanics had kidnapped (some branches of) L550 by then already.

Zelto
12-23-2021, 08:06 PM
I20509 is pretty fascinating, especially considering I don't think Patterson et al. found any I1. He obviously came from farther north, perhaps following the Amber road to Prague? How many beers could you buy with a kg of amber anyway? ;)

His updated coordinates are at eurogenes if anyone wants to check them out.

Standardized Ape
12-26-2021, 09:51 AM
I20509 is pretty fascinating, especially considering I don't think Patterson et al. found any I1. He obviously came from farther north, perhaps following the Amber road to Prague? How many beers could you buy with a kg of amber anyway? ;)

His updated coordinates are at eurogenes if anyone wants to check them out.

It probably doesn't have much to do with L550 in particular but I20509 seems to represent a related population to the Levänluhta outlier. They both have excess Pitted Ware admixture which is well beyond the norm. Levänluhta outlier JK2065 has no apparent Baltic/Estonia shift at all, but I20509 does have a tiny bit although it doesn't show that well.

Target: CZE_IA_La_Tene:I20509
Distance: 3.5624% / 0.03562411
60.4 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric:STR_316
20.4 SWE_Vasterbjers_PWC_BAC:vbj007
18.8 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M
0.4 Baltic_EST_MA:s19_IIa_1

Target: FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o:JK2065
Distance: 3.5643% / 0.03564313
43.2 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M
39.2 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric:STR_316
17.6 SWE_Vasterbjers_PWC_BAC:vbj007

If you model I20509 with JK2065 the fit improves a bit and more Estonian or Baltic can be fitted.

Target: CZE_IA_La_Tene:I20509
Distance: 3.3532% / 0.03353197
46.0 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric:STR_316
34.0 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o:JK2065
12.6 SWE_Vasterbjers_PWC_BAC:vbj007
7.4 Baltic_EST_MA:s19_IIa_1

parastais
12-26-2021, 12:13 PM
But judging by modern (or even “Gotland Balts” average from Viking article) Balts unlikely population akin to La Tene sample can be responsible for 40% of Balts Y-dna (Scenario - L-1025 from NorthWest).
So, more likely perhaps L1025 split off L550 this side of Baltics before taking up so much Scandinavian.

Zelto
12-26-2021, 08:59 PM
It probably doesn't have much to do with L550 in particular but I20509 seems to represent a related population to the Levänluhta outlier. They both have excess Pitted Ware admixture which is well beyond the norm. Levänluhta outlier JK2065 has no apparent Baltic/Estonia shift at all, but I20509 does have a tiny bit although it doesn't show that well.

Actually I think the vast majority of N-L550+ L1025- men descend from a (post early-Tarand) Iron Age group around lake Mälaren, that may have been I20509-like. This would IMO, best explain the diversity found in modern Swedes and the aDNA that's slowly being released.

The volcanic winter of 536 was catastrophic for farmers in Central Sweden, alongside continuous waves of immigration from the more densely populated south, may have reduced the frequency of N-L550 and the Pitted Ware component to their current levels.

N-L1025 may well be an exception, but its also younger than the other N-L550 subclades.

Somewhat unrelated, but a few months ago a Pole was added to YFull who is currently N-L1025*. https://yfull.com/tree/N-L1025/

I also discovered that YF03832 under Z16981* (TMRCA 2600ybp) is from the Grodno Region in Western Belarus. https://yfull.com/tree/N-Z16981/
Note: N-A2358* (TMRCA 2600ybp) directly downstream, found in a man from England.

These individual modern samples probably won't mean much in the long run though.

Standardized Ape
12-27-2021, 09:07 AM
Actually I think the vast majority of N-L550+ L1025- men descend from a (post early-Tarand) Iron Age group around lake Mälaren, that may have been I20509-like. This would IMO, best explain the diversity found in modern Swedes and the aDNA that's slowly being released.

The volcanic winter of 536 was catastrophic for farmers in Central Sweden, alongside continuous waves of immigration from the more densely populated south, may have reduced the frequency of N-L550 and the Pitted Ware component to their current levels.


The lack of samples from Central Sweden from the LBA to the IA is a problem to me for other reasons too, relating to Scandinavian admixture in Finland.
I think that the reservoirs for L550 in Mälaren and PWC admixture were separate even if adjacent, as later samples with L550 do not exactly need much of it.

https://i.imgur.com/YmCmgXi.png

Not sure what's up with VK579 but unless more samples like that turn up I'd dismiss it as an outlier.



N-L1025 may well be an exception, but its also younger than the other N-L550 subclades.


I have some reasons to think N-Y4707 in Finland came from northern Estonia and quite early too. I think northern Estonia functioned as the source of N-L1025 but could not function as the reservoir due to some sequence of unfortunate events, which would affect other L550 in the area as well. Y5004 seems to have fared much better through these events.

Zelto
12-27-2021, 07:39 PM
The lack of samples from Central Sweden from the LBA to the IA is a problem to me for other reasons too, relating to Scandinavian admixture in Finland.
I think that the reservoirs for L550 in Malaren and PWC admixture were separate even if adjacent, as later samples with L550 do not exactly need much of it.

I'm not so sure. I think it makes sense that PWC admixture would have survived longer in the north and at one time, the entire perimeter of Lake Mälaren was inhabited by Pitted Ware people. As you know, this is also where the Swedish Tarands were constructed.

VK579 is much younger and was found farther south in Öland. The oldest N-L550 samples from Central Sweden post-date I20509 by well over a thousand years, the 536 event and waves of demic movement from the south occurred between.


I have some reasons to think N-Y4707 in Finland came from northern Estonia and quite early too. I think northern Estonia functioned as the source of N-L1025 but could not function as the reservoir due to some sequence of unfortunate events, which would affect other L550 in the area as well. Y5004 seems to have fared much better through these events.

You could go a step farther and say N-Y4706 was formed in Northern Estonia because of VII4. I still think there is some missing link, between early-Tarands and N-rich Balts. Tarands lived practically next door to Kivutkalns for centuries whilst the estimated TMRCAs on YFull suggest N-L1025 should have begun diversifying.

The "missing link" between Estonian Tarands and modern distribution doesn't have to be IA Swedes, but for N-L550+L1025- subclades I'm pretty confident it was.

Standardized Ape
12-27-2021, 08:26 PM
I'm not so sure. I think it makes sense that PWC admixture would have survived longer in the north and at one time, the entire perimeter of Lake Mälaren was inhabited by Pitted Ware people. As you know, this is also where the Swedish Tarands were constructed.

VK579 is much younger and was found farther south in Öland. The oldest N-L550 samples from Central Sweden post-date I20509 by well over a thousand years, the 536 event and waves of demic movement from the south occurred between.


My expectation is that Mälaren hosted a population rich in Battle Axe-related ancestry with low levels of PWC at best. The arrival of Tarands may have caused a shift of much larger magnitude than we see in I20509.
I do not think the language spoken in the area was yet Germanic at that point, although it may have been a related language. Germanization would have involved yet another shift, introducing more southern Scandinavian ancestry and wiping out whatever Finnic words were loaned into the local language(presuming Finnic did not become the primary language spoken in the area). That's just what makes sense to me.

Zelto
12-27-2021, 09:10 PM
My expectation is that Mälaren hosted a population rich in Battle Axe-related ancestry with low levels of PWC at best. The arrival of Tarands may have caused a shift of much larger magnitude than we see in I20509.

But I20509 must have had early-Tarand paternal ancestors a couple centuries prior, no? In which case Tarand auDNA was diluted quite rapidly. Where do you think I20509 got his elevated PWC admixture if not Mälaren?

Standardized Ape
12-27-2021, 09:36 PM
But I20509 must have had early-Tarand paternal ancestors a couple centuries prior, no? In which case Tarand auDNA was diluted quite rapidly. Where do you think I20509 got his elevated PWC admixture if not Mälaren?

Maybe somewhere around Vänern. The maternal line of I20509 seems to have a distribution biased mostly towards that area(or rather west of it).
https://i.imgur.com/pjwxrUs.png

Dewsloth
12-27-2021, 11:21 PM
I20509 is pretty fascinating, especially considering I don't think Patterson et al. found any I1. He obviously came from farther north, perhaps following the Amber road to Prague? How many beers could you buy with a kg of amber anyway? ;)

His updated coordinates are at eurogenes if anyone wants to check them out.

Completely different uniparental, but if you plot all the CZE La Tene and CZE Hallstatt from the new paper onto a G25 NW Euro PCA, the closest Hallstatt "outlier" to I20509 seems to be I17607 (a DF19 who similarly seems to be a non-native traveler who was buried in CZE in 800-550 BCE). Maybe another "corner" of a larger trade network.

Huck Finn
12-28-2021, 11:29 AM
I'm not so sure. I think it makes sense that PWC admixture would have survived longer in the north and at one time, the entire perimeter of Lake Mälaren was inhabited by Pitted Ware people. As you know, this is also where the Swedish Tarands were constructed.

Timingwise, related to the early heydays of PWC, some more peripheral place such as Åland, might work as a source for PWC admixture? Also taking into account the geographic location between Estonia and Sweden.

Standardized Ape
12-28-2021, 12:50 PM
Timingwise, related to the early heydays of PWC, some more peripheral place such as Åland, might work as a source for PWC admixture? Also taking into account the geographic location between Estonia and Sweden.

PWC were hardly peripheral although they may have been relatively few in numbers. They had an arrangement with BAC that they got the coastal areas while BAC had the inland, both being more suitable for their modes of subsistence.

https://i.imgur.com/lK9d9Mw.png

People can draw their own conclusions but I think the similarity of much later samples from Mälaren like vik_84001 to Bergsgraven is the thing worth noting. Probably some ancient samples from Finland will also show this, whether they may be R1a, I1 or N-L550 but not so much the PWC.

Dewsloth
12-28-2021, 05:30 PM
Completely different uniparental, but if you plot all the CZE La Tene and CZE Hallstatt from the new paper onto a G25 NW Euro PCA, the closest Hallstatt "outlier" to I20509 seems to be I17607 (a DF19 who similarly seems to be a non-native traveler who was buried in CZE in 800-550 BCE). Maybe another "corner" of a larger trade network.

Here is what I'm talking about:
47873

Maybe they had similar reasons for visiting the CZE core?

Zelto
12-28-2021, 06:55 PM
Maybe somewhere around Vänern. The maternal line of I20509 seems to have a distribution biased mostly towards that area(or rather west of it).

I'm not sure I follow. Why would Vänern have higher PWC admixture than Mälaren? It was much more closely connected to Denmark and what was likely the core-Germanic area to the south.

I stole your model from post #776 and tried running all the VK2020 samples. vik_84001 is 60th from the top in terms of BAC ancestry. VK24 (Faroes_VA), VK124 (NOR_Mid_MA) and VK426 (SWE_Skara_VA) all score 85% plus BAC, with the latter scoring 93.3%. Unfortunately I can't fit it all in a screenshot.

So vik_84001 has above average BAC ancestry when all 400+ VK2020 samples are accounted for, but it's definitely not exceptionally high. I still favor I20509 coming from Mälaren, or at least somewhere along the Baltic coast. More recent Viking Age samples almost certainly have "southern" admixture.

Standardized Ape
12-28-2021, 08:35 PM
I'm not sure I follow. Why would Vänern have higher PWC admixture than Mälaren? It was much more closely connected to Denmark and what was likely the core-Germanic area to the south.

I stole your model from post #776 and tried running all the VK2020 samples. vik_84001 is 60th from the top in terms of BAC ancestry. VK24 (Faroes_VA), VK124 (NOR_Mid_MA) and VK426 (SWE_Skara_VA) all score 85% plus BAC, with the latter scoring 93.3%. Unfortunately I can't fit it all in a screenshot.

So vik_84001 has above average BAC ancestry when all 400+ VK2020 samples are accounted for, but it's definitely not exceptionally high. I still favor I20509 coming from Mälaren, or at least somewhere along the Baltic coast. More recent Viking Age samples almost certainly have "southern" admixture.

I'm pretty sure my reasoning is not going to convince you because quite frankly it is not solid on the surface level. There's such a massive gap in samples that these are guesses upon guesses. vik_84001 is actually closer to ber1m in distance than all but one of the VK2020 samples so fine structure might be showing there. I think ber1m-related ancestry in Finland originated from the Mälaren area, and I20509 is all wrong for that. I doubt it it is Bronze Age or Viking Age either. Finland aside, I'm not really seeing why there would be so much L550 around Mälaren(hypothetically in the past as well) with only as much admixture as I20509 has but then again I guess that is an issue with Balts as well to some extent.

Huck Finn
12-28-2021, 09:07 PM
Why would Vänern have higher PWC admixture than Mälaren?

Good question. I'd guess that during even early BA some remote place by the Baltic coastline, including the islands, would be a better alternative. Provided that PWC is still seen as being based on local maritime HG's? Even the area around Mälaren is probably too central in this respect.

Zelto
12-28-2021, 10:16 PM
I think ber1m-related ancestry in Finland originated from the Mälaren area, and I20509 is all wrong for that. I doubt it it is Bronze Age or Viking Age either. Finland aside, I'm not really seeing why there would be so much L550 around Mälaren(hypothetically in the past as well) with only as much admixture as I20509 has but then again I guess that is an issue with Balts as well to some extent.

I believe N-L550 had a very limited distribution in Sweden initially (albeit at a higher frequency). This is partly why I would place I20509 near the early-Tarand graves, close to Mälaren. I will take note of your point about ber1m-related ancestry in Finland though.

I think something has to be said for the only Iron Age sample from Sweden (VK579) turning up as N-L550 and now I20509 as well. It's not much to go off of, but could hint at N-L550 previously being more common.

If the Saaremaa Vikings were from Svealand, their frequency of N is surprisingly similar to current levels, roughly 15% in Uppsala and 10% in Gotland.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7058887_Y-chromosome_diversity_in_Sweden_-_A_long-time_perspective

This is why I think the hypothetical genetic shift happened soon after 536AD.
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2%3A526789/FULLTEXT01.pdf


Good question. I'd guess that during even early BA some remote place by the Baltic coastline, including the islands, would be a better alternative. Provided that PWC is still seen as being based on local maritime HG's? Even the area around Mälaren is probably too central in this respect.

That's possible too, but I20509 is very Scandinavian looking. Depending on what islands you mean, if you are traveling from Skåne by boat, Mälaren isn't much closer than Åland for example.

Huck Finn
12-29-2021, 08:35 AM
That's possible too, but I20509 is very Scandinavian looking. Depending on what islands you mean, if you are traveling from Skåne by boat, Mälaren isn't much closer than Åland for example.

Is he? The PWC vs. BAC -ratio does not look very much like modern Scandinavian, at least. I'd say he looks either archaic or peripheral, because of PWC. If not even something getting close to the elevated amounts of HG based ancestry in Eastern Baltic. If not Åland, then something related to the islands Ösel and Gotland, maybe?

Zelto
12-29-2021, 07:39 PM
Is he? The PWC vs. BAC -ratio does not look very much like modern Scandinavian, at least. I'd say he looks either archaic or peripheral, because of PWC. If not even something getting close to the elevated amounts of HG based ancestry in Eastern Baltic. If not Åland, then something related to the islands Ösel and Gotland, maybe?

Not in the modern sense, but PWC admixture should be a telltale sign of ancient ancestry from Scandinavia. I20509 also scores a lot of DEU_MA_Baiuvaric:STR_316, or whatever other "Germanic" proxy is used. Looking at Standardized Apes model, I20509 has 18.8% BAC when it's not swallowed up by FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o. Baltic_BA doesn't seem to be needed at all.

Compared to modern samples:

Distance to: Czech_IA_LaTene:I20509
0.03919157 Icelandic:NA15755
0.04181390 Danish:463
0.04337990 Icelandic:NA15765
0.04364637 Icelandic:NA15761
0.04444649 Danish:449
0.04467538 Swedish:Sweden8
0.04516293 Irish:512
0.04607436 Danish:435
0.04712055 Swedish:Sweden19
0.04877967 Swedish:Sweden6
0.04891057 Danish:493
0.04929248 Swedish:Sweden9
0.04941217 Danish:487
0.04943814 Irish:Irish54
0.04954612 Irish:555
0.04966619 Swedish:Sweden3
0.04989930 Icelandic:NA15763
0.04991493 Swedish:Sweden15
0.04998561 Swedish:Sweden7
0.04999617 Swedish:Sweden1
0.05026610 Dutch:Netherlands47
0.05048769 Norwegian:NOR152
0.05053840 Swedish:Sweden22
0.05079590 Icelandic:NA15759
0.05101457 Danish:475

Huck Finn
12-29-2021, 07:50 PM
Not in the modern sense, but PWC admixture should be a telltale sign of ancient ancestry from Scandinavia.

Sure, easy to agree on that one.