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View Full Version : R1b-L277.1* R1b-M269>L23>L150>Z2103>Z2105>L277.1* 2014



Joe B
12-16-2013, 08:57 PM
L277.1 Haplogroup - R1b1a2a2b RefSNP ID - rs2538852 Mutation - T->C
L277.1 - ISOGG
L277 - 23andme
L277.1 or L277 has been found from Kolkata, India to The Hague, The Netherlands in very small numbers so far. Small hot spots have been found with the Assyrian and Swiss Anabaptist communities. No intermediate SNPs between Z2103/Z2105 and L277.1 have been found so far.
Please post any L277.1 results or information on this thread so we can follow any developments in 2014. The expectation is a lot more L277.1 is out there just waiting to be tested.
Edit: Please keep the focus on R1b-L277.1

Rathna
12-16-2013, 09:08 PM
I have written a lot about this also on this forum. We don't start from anything. So far it seems that there isn't any L277+ haplotype that hasn't DYS392=14, thus the subclade should be very recent, i.e. from the Indo-European expansion. This could explain the diffusion in all the IE world.

Joe B
12-16-2013, 10:40 PM
Found three haplotypes that look like L277.1 in the Timurids(The Emperor of India) Y-DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/The%20Emperor%20of%20India/default.aspx?section=ycolorized).
#69057, #69058, #69060 should test L277.1.
MODE 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/TimuridEmpire1400.png/250px-TimuridEmpire1400.png
Timurid dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty) Wikipedia
The Timurid Empire in 1405 CE The Timurid dynasty (Persian: تیموریان‎), self-designated Gurkānī [3][4][5] (Persian: گوركانى‎), was a Persianate,[6][7] Sunni Muslim dynasty of Turco-Mongol lineage[7][8][9][10] which ruled over modern-day Iran, Afghanistan, much of Central Asia, as well as parts of contemporary Pakistan, India, Mesopotamia, Anatolia and the Caucasus. The dynasty was founded by Timur (Tamerlane) in the 14th century.
Y DNA tree - early and undefined branches Project
(http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA-Tree-Early-Branches,Y-DNA-Tree-Early-Branches/default.aspx?section=ycolorized)India subcontinent DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/india/default.aspx?section=ycolorized)
Edit: Add #216616 from the Afghan-Pakistani DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/dna_afghan_pak/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) too.

Rathna
12-16-2013, 11:34 PM
69058 Saad-Ullah Khan - Awan R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-18
69060 Sultan Mohammed Khan Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
69057 Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
184412 Karsli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-18 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 18 37-37 12 12

These 3 hapotypes belong to an unique family closely related and for their 13, 14, 28, they could be R-L277+. The other haplotype could be an L584+. But they are a few R1b and demonstrate for their scarcity that this haplogroup wasn't born there.

Rathna
12-16-2013, 11:41 PM
Edit: Add #216616 from the Afghan-Pakistani DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/dna_afghan_pak/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) too.

216616 Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28

Also this haplotype belongs to the same family,
Tanoli.

Joe B
12-16-2013, 11:59 PM
69058 Saad-Ullah Khan - Awan R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-18
69060 Sultan Mohammed Khan Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
69057 Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
184412 Karsli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-18 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 18 37-37 12 12

These 3 hapotypes belong to an unique family closely related and for their 13, 14, 28, they could be R-L277+. The other haplotype could be an L584+. But they are a few R1b and demonstrate for their scarcity that this haplogroup wasn't born there.
Why did you put #184412 with the DYS393=13 with the Timurids with DYS393=14 that seem R1b-L277.1+? That is confusing.

This Timurids group fits your idea of a late dispersal for L277.1 for south central Asia.

Humanist
12-17-2013, 12:01 AM
Small hot spots have been found with the Assyrian and Swiss Anabaptist communities.

Thanks for the info, Joe. More on Anabaptists (Wikipedia):


Anabaptists are Christians of the Radical Reformation of 16th-century Europe. Although some consider the Anabaptist movement to be an offshoot of Protestantism, others see it as a distinct movement. The Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites are direct descendants of the movement.

....

Common Anabaptist beliefs and practices of the 16th century continue to influence modern Christianity and Western society.

Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice – the authority of the Scriptures
Freedom of religion – liberty of conscience
Separation of church and state
Pacifism or nonresistance
Separation or nonconformity to the world
Voluntary church membership and believer's baptism
Evangelistic zeal
Priesthood of all believers

Joe B
12-17-2013, 12:42 AM
More on Anabaptists (Wikipedia):
Anabaptists are Christians of the Radical Reformation of 16th-century Europe. Although some consider the Anabaptist movement to be an offshoot of Protestantism, others see it as a distinct movement. The Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites are direct descendants of the movement.
#159189 from the Netherlands belongs to the Huguenot Y-DNA (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Huguenot/default.aspx?section=yresults) project. The Huguenots are another group connected to the Reformation in Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_in_Switzerland) and France.
el wikipedia
The Huguenots (/ˈhjuːɡənɒt/ or /huːɡəˈnoʊ/; French: [yɡno], [yɡəno]) were members of the Protestant Reformed Church of France during the 16th and 17th centuries. French Protestants were inspired by the writings of John Calvin in the 1530s, and they were called Huguenots by the 1560s. By the end of the 17th century and into the 18th century, roughly 500,000 Huguenots had fled France during a series of religious persecutions. L277.1 is found in interesting places.

Rathna
12-17-2013, 05:37 AM
Why did you put #184412 with the DYS393=13 with the Timurids with DYS393=14 that seem R1b-L277.1+? That is confusing.

This Timurids group fits your idea of a late dispersal for L277.1 for south central Asia.

Because they were the unique hg. R1b in that Project, i.e. only 2: 1 L277+ and probably 1 L584+, and also the other from Pakistan belongs to the same family of the former ones. Result: only 1 L277+ in all that place. Which does it demonstrate? That hg. L277+ has arrived there from elsewhere, probably from the region around the Caucasus, and, if it is linked with the expansion of the Indo-Europeans, they didn't come from India, but they arrived in India from elsewhere.
Second: if we'll find in all Middle East to India only L277+ and L584+, what should we think about the origin of Z2105+? And if L277 is relatively recent for not having found any sample with a mutation in DYS392, shouldn't we consider it like a paragroup like L51 with its DYS426=13 or like M269 if will be demonstrate that all are L150+/PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+?
Don't you think that this is important to shed some light on the origin of Z2105+? Of course this origin could not saying anything about the origin of L23*, not found so far and probably not existing now, but if we put together this fact with others, probably we could made some conclusions:
1) only Europe has all the subclades of Z2105, not L584 if not in the Jewish pool which may have come from elsewhere, but Europe has so far PF7580* (of course if Carnevali and Aghinitei will be tested negative for L584)
2) so far the most ancestral haplotype of Z2105 is the Tuscan of the 1KGP
3) also about L277+ Europe has very varied haplotypes, not only the Swiss Burkhholders, but also the Italian Manno and Stasi
All what I said would bring me to think that Z2105 comes from Europe. Of course we are waiting for every other next result.

Joe B
12-31-2013, 08:52 AM
216616 Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28

Also this haplotype belongs to the same family,
Tanoli.
Found a Tanoli that is L23+ L277- L584- L51- of the same haplotype in the R1b-Early spreadsheet. Just goes to show that 13, 14, 28 is not a L277.1+ guarantee. This Tanoli does not belong to any FTDNA project.
There is a fair amount of L277.1+ presumption going on in some of the projects. Maybe a new push to L277 SNP test is in order just to see if what is out there is replicable.

Joe B
12-31-2013, 10:01 AM
Here's the current geographical status for R1b-L277.1 for the start of 2014.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7383/11664542563_10a7fc41f1_o.jpg
Original size (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7383/11664542563_10a7fc41f1_o.jpg)
Only haplotypes that have a specific locality are included.

Rathna
12-31-2013, 10:48 AM
Found a Tanoli that is L23+ L277- L584- L51- of the same haplotype in the R1b-Early spreadsheet. Just goes to show that 13, 14, 28 is not a L277.1+ guarantee. This Tanoli does not belong to any FTDNA project.
There is a fair amount of L277.1+ presumption going on in some of the projects. Maybe a new push to L277 SNP test is in order just to see if what is out there is replicable.

These are the three haplotypes I posted above:
69058 Saad-Ullah Khan - Awan R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-18
69060 Sultan Mohammed Khan Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
69057 Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18

Have you found another Tanoli? Where? Which is his haplotype?
Who did him test for SNPs?

Rathna
12-31-2013, 10:57 AM
History of the Tribe "tanoli"

The Tanoli are a prominent Sarbanri Pashtun tribe residing in the Hazara region of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province of Pakistan and Afghanistan. The word Tanawal is derived from Taniwal or the Tanal pass in Central Asia.[citation needed] Although not usually acknowledged as Pashtuns, the Tanoli have assimilated many Pastun cultural features.[1][2] Tribally allied with the Pathans,[3][4][5] The Tanoli participated in the frontier wars with the British and in Charles Allen's analysis of those wars were described as "extremely hostile" and "brave and hardy and accounted for the best swordsmen in Hazara."[6]

They have ruled the state of Amb of Hazara whitch started from the beginning of 18th century.During the the late 17th century,Turks were overthrown by swatis in areas of upper Hazara. Tanolis, however, remained loyal to Turks till end of latters rule in Hazara. Tanolis later on put up the vigorous rebellions against the Sikhs in the 19th century. They also allied with Ahmed Shah Abdali in his conquest of India. Many Khans and princes of their dynasty have gained mass popularity as heroes. The origin of the term Tanoli is due to later corruption of the name Tanawali o Taniwal.It is a Hazara custom to change names etc. from the original. For example in Tanawal the name Gohar Aman is usually pronounced as Gohriamaan, Hussain khan to Sain khan, Ahmed khan to madd khan and Mubarak Shah to Marak Shah - there are countless examples of this in different parts of Hazara - this is the most plausible explanation for the term as the oral and written history of Tanawal is fiercely holding on to their age-long belief that they originate fromAfghanistan from a pass known Tanaubal or Tanawal . Therefore, to assign any other origin of the name Tanoli is not only against the cultural norms and tribal history of the area but also a distortion of History.

Most members of the Tanoli tribe reside in the former princely state of Amb in the Hazara Divisionof Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province of Pakistan, in the cities of Abbottabad, Khalabat Township,Haripur and its district, Mansehra, Battagram and Kohistan districts. A branch of the Tanoli tribe also resides in Kashmir, mainly in Muzaffarabad and Srinagar. Tanolis also inhabit the cities of Quetta and Karachi. They dominate the Tanawal-Sherwan belt.[2]

In Afghanistan, the Tanoli primarily live in the eastern provinces of Paktia, Gardez, and Ghazni.

Rathna
12-31-2013, 11:00 AM
Perhaps it merits to SNPs test the two samples of the Azeri Projet that seemed L277+.

Rathna
12-31-2013, 11:14 AM
With DYS464=14(15)-15-16-18 they could be also Z2110 and linked to the East European cluster.

Rathna
12-31-2013, 11:31 AM
74690 Malkhasy Azerbaijan Azerbaijan R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-16-18 10 11 19-23 15 16 17 16 38-39 12 12
N3986 Mouradian Melik Mouradian, ~1860-1905, Hadrut, Karabakh Armenia R1b1a2a
12 25 15 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-18 11 11 19-21 15 16 18 19 35-38 12 12
69058 Saad-Ullah Khan - Awan R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-18
69060 Sultan Mohammed Khan Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
69057 Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
This haplotype is diffused in the Caucasus and probably is very ancient there:
255338 Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 25 14 11 12-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-18 11 12 19-24 15 16 18 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 12 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 7 12 24 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
263463 Melik Parsadan I, 17th C., Syunik, Armenia Armenia R1b1a2
12 25 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 15 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-15-16-17-17 11 10 19-23 15 16 18 17 36-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
171777 Iran R1b1a2a
12 25 12 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 16 18 30 15-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 17 17 16 16 35-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-25 15 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
etc. etc.

Silesian
12-31-2013, 01:37 PM
Here's the current geographical status for R1b-L277.1 for the start of 2014.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7383/11664542563_10a7fc41f1_o.jpg
Original size (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7383/11664542563_10a7fc41f1_o.jpg)
Only haplotypes that have a specific locality are included.
Nice map.
I was comparing TMRCA, Cossack from Urals R1b L277+ to my own L277-L584- Silesia 99SC2 ,using the age calculator posted by
Farroukh http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1801-KLAD-simple-TMRCA-calculator-for-two-haplotypes
searching by haplotype R1b1a2a1 & Genetic Distance Report
http://www.ysearch.org/haplosearch_start.asp?uid=99SC2
and then applying 30 per generation. Cossack-Urals223828 b.1886, d.1932, Yaik Cossack clan R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L23+, L277+, M269+, L51-, L584-, P312-, U106- L277+ Cossack genetic distance 32/67 comes out to around 4300. The closest TMRCA values to mine are found 14.67 & 16.67 around my region Poland,Prussia, Jászság, Hungary and Czech L277-,L584- around 1500-2000.Comparing our German-Silesia genetic distance FXJ53 Darmstadt, Hesse-Darmstadt/Hessen-Darmstadt, Germany 25/67 about 3500 . The real shocker are the distances between the Albanian R1b likeE12439 1945 R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L23+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L51-, P310-, P311-, P312-, U106-, genetic distance 51/67 or around 8000 or Macedonian genetic distance of 37/37 11490. Perhaps I'm not calculating correctly.

Rathna
12-31-2013, 02:00 PM
Nice map. I was comparing Cossack from Urals R1b L277 to my own L277-L584- Silesia,using the age calculator posted by
Farroukh http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1801-KLAD-simple-TMRCA-calculator-for-two-haplotypes
searching by haplotype R1b1a2a1 & Genetic Distance Report
http://www.ysearch.org/haplosearch_start.asp?uid=99SC2
and then applying 30 per generation. Cossack-Urals223828 b.1886, d.1932, Yaik Cossack clan R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L23+, L277+, M269+, L51-, L584-, P312-, U106- L277 Cossack genetic distance 32/67 comes out to around 4300. The closest to me are around my region Poland,Prussia, Jászság, Hungary and Czech L277-,L584- around 1500-2000.Comparing our German-Silesia genetic distance FXJ53 Darmstadt, Hesse-Darmstadt/Hessen-Darmstadt, Germany 25/67 about 3500 . The real shocker are the distances between the Albanian R1b likeE12439 1945 R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L23+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L51-, P310-, P311-, P312-, U106-, genetic distance 51/67 or around 8000 or Macedonian genetic distance of 37/37. Perhaps I'm not calculating it correctly.

Fega belongs to the "Balkan (or Albanian) cluster", thus they had a RECHLoh in DYS385 from 11-14 (or other value) to 11-11, then count it for 1.
The Albanians (or Greeks) tested seem to belong to R-Z2110: see Drakopoulos but also the Italian Varipapa, if he is, as I think, of Arbereshe origin.
We will know more about our haplogroup when my Chromo2 results arrive. So far it seems to me that the closest to me are those of Central Europe like Szabo, who are L277- and L584- and I hope of the most ancient Z2105*, but there are the possibility that some of us is PF7580, ancestor of L584 or some intermediate cluster like the Tuscan of the 1KGP (NA20532).
As I have said before, it remains open the problem of L277, which hasn't so far an intermediate SNPs between it and Z2105 and leaves open the possibility of an Eastern origin of Z2105*.

Silesian
12-31-2013, 02:13 PM
Fega belongs to the "Balkan (or Albanian) cluster", thus they had a RECHLoh in DYS385 from 11-14 (or other value) to 11-11, then count it for 1.
The Albanians (or Greeks) tested seem to belong to R-Z2110: see Drakopoulos but also the Italian Varipapa, if he is, as I think, of Arbereshe origin.
We will know more about our haplogroup when my Chromo2 results arrive. So far it seems to me that the closest to me are those of Central Europe like Szabo, who are L277- and L584- and I hope of the most ancient Z2105*, but there are the possibility that some of us is PF7580, ancestor of L584 or some intermediate cluster like the Tuscan of the 1KGP (NA20532).
As I have said before, it remains open the problem of L277, which hasn't so far an intermediate SNPs between it and Z2105 and leaves open the possibility of an Eastern origin of Z2105*.

The Balkan cluster looks very distant, I was surprised we are both 2103.2105 Could two distinct branches have arisen from which middle east is from.

Joe B
12-31-2013, 08:27 PM
These are the three haplotypes I posted above:
69058 Saad-Ullah Khan - Awan R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-18
69060 Sultan Mohammed Khan Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
69057 Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18

Have you found another Tanoli? Where? Which is his haplotype?
Who did him test for SNPs?
He is FTDNA tested. L23+ L277- L584- L51-
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 16 16 16 17 34-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 21-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
Can you see anything that would help us discern L277.1+/-?

Joe B
12-31-2013, 08:47 PM
Nice map.
I was comparing TMRCA, Cossack from Urals R1b L277+ to my own L277-L584- Silesia 99SC2 ,using the age calculator posted by
Farroukh http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1801-KLAD-simple-TMRCA-calculator-for-two-haplotypes
searching by haplotype R1b1a2a1 & Genetic Distance Report
http://www.ysearch.org/haplosearch_start.asp?uid=99SC2
and then applying 30 per generation. Cossack-Urals223828 b.1886, d.1932, Yaik Cossack clan R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L23+, L277+, M269+, L51-, L584-, P312-, U106- L277+ Cossack genetic distance 32/67 comes out to around 4300. The closest TMRCA values to mine are found 14.67 & 16.67 around my region Poland,Prussia, Jászság, Hungary and Czech L277-,L584- around 1500-2000.Comparing our German-Silesia genetic distance FXJ53 Darmstadt, Hesse-Darmstadt/Hessen-Darmstadt, Germany 25/67 about 3500 . The real shocker are the distances between the Albanian R1b likeE12439 1945 R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L23+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L51-, P310-, P311-, P312-, U106-, genetic distance 51/67 or around 8000 or Macedonian genetic distance of 37/37 11490. Perhaps I'm not calculating correctly.
One of the common characteristics of R1b-Z2103 is the funky nature(off mode) of some of the slow mutating STR markers. Just look at DYS393=11/12/13. How would that effect TMRCA and GD? I haven't put to much energy into TMRCA values or even genetic distance.

Rathna
01-01-2014, 12:18 AM
One of the common characteristics of R1b-Z2103 is the funky nature(off mode) of some of the slow mutating STR markers. Just look at DYS393=11/12/13. How would that effect TMRCA and GD? I haven't put to much energy into TMRCA values or even genetic distance.

DYS393 is a slow mutating marker, but not so slow as others, thus no wonder that we find the modal 12 but also some haplotypes with 11 or 13, in fact the subclades have 13 like modal, because the mutation of the subclade happened in an haplotype with 13. I wouldn't pay a particular attention to this. More weird is that R-L51 (at least the haplotype survived) has 13 in DYS426, which is a slower mutating marker than DYD393, thus the mutation of L51 happened in one of the few haplotypes of L23 with DYS426=13 and not in the more numerous with 12. But this is what happens.

Rathna
01-01-2014, 12:52 AM
He is FTDNA tested. L23+ L277- L584- L51-
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 16 16 16 17 34-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 21-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
Can you see anything that would help us discern L277.1+/-?

This haplotype
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 16 16 16 17 34-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 21-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
is clearly linked to this
69060 Sultan Mohammed Khan Tanoli R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
more than to the other two, even though they belong to the same family/cluster.
They have only one mutation (DYS458) out of 25 markers.
That they are L277- should be verified, because many times FTDNA is wrong, above all about testing M269. Anyway, if the SNP will be confirmed, you ask me if there are some values which may separate L277 + from -. Actually the series 13 14 28 is strong, not only for DYS392=14 from 13, but also for DYS389II from 29 to 28. Anyway these two mutations may have happened also in other clusters.
We may see the other two series
8 10 10 8 11 11
11 13 11 11 12 12
with the mutation in DYF406S1 from 10 to 11.
8 10 10 8 11 11 is modal in L584+ rather than in L277+, but also these slow mutating markers mutate, and only a large comparison could say something definitive, just because, as I say, markers mutate around the modal, there is convergence to the modal as time passes and only sometime a value goes for the tangent.

Rathna
01-01-2014, 01:27 AM
The real shocker are the distances between the Albanian R1b likeE12439 1945 R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L23+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L51-, P310-, P311-, P312-, U106-, genetic distance 51/67 or around 8000 or Macedonian genetic distance of 37/37 11490. Perhaps I'm not calculating correctly.

E12439 FEGA 1945 Albania R1b1a2a1
13 24 14 11 10-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 16-16-16-17 12 11 19-23 15 15 17 18 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 9 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 21 20 16 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
H1614 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firen Italy R1b1a2
12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 12 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 32 15 9 16 11 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 14 10 9 20 15 19 14 23 18 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 9 11 11
176123 Silesia/ Poland/Germany/Czech[ Shlesien,Śląsk1750] Poland R1b1a2a1
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 14 13 31 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 33 14-15-16-19 10 10 19-23 16 16 19 19 37-40 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 23 20 14 12 11 13 11 10 12 12

27 mutations out of 67 markers between me and Fega
26 mutations out of 67 markers between me and Silesian
36 mutations out of 67 markers between Silesian and Fega
I counted DYS385 = 2 mutation as to our 11-14, because 11-11 by a RecLOH and DYS385a from 11 to 10. Of course it isn't said that our 11-14 has remained unchanged whereas Fega had two mutations, just for the hidden mutations due the convergence to the modal etc.

Joe B
01-01-2014, 01:39 AM
That they are L277- should be verified, because many times FTDNA is wrong, above all about testing M269.

but also these slow mutating markers mutate, and only a large comparison could say something definitive, just because, as I say, markers mutate around the modal, there is convergence to the modal as time passes and only sometime a value goes for the tangent.
I had a chance to look over the history of L277.1 and it's not real pretty. It is my understanding that they got the Sanger Sequencing test locked in. They should at $49. Some questions have been raised about 23andme L277 results too. Right now the L277.1 issues seemed to have been resolved. Thread: L277 back on the table? (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?78-L277-back-on-the-table)
It's time for people to test.

In addition to convergence, we have to keep in mind that the STR - SNP relationship is coincidental.

Thanks for taking a look at the Tanoli haplotype.

Felice Anno Nuovo!

Cofgene
01-01-2014, 03:11 AM
I had a chance to look over the history of L277.1 and it's not real pretty. It is my understanding that they got the Sanger Sequencing test locked in. They should at $49. Some questions have been raised about 23andme L277 results too. Right now the L277.1 issues seemed to have been resolved. Thread: L277 back on the table? (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?78-L277-back-on-the-table)
It's time for people to test.

In addition to convergence, we have to keep in mind that the STR - SNP relationship is coincidental.

Thanks for taking a look at the Tanoli haplotype.

Felice Anno Nuovo!

Yes. Getting L277.1 testable was a series of technical issues but Thomas Krahn eventually got it worked out. Locking in on the one spot to capture the L277 SNP and not the 2nd mirror location was a technical mountain. Big-Y's for L277.1+ individuals would be interesting since there appear to be some additional sequence changes close to where one end of the primers needed to sit that complicated getting a true positive result. If someone comes up with the money for a big-Y I can get one of the Burkholder's to provide the sample.

Rathna
01-01-2014, 06:24 AM
Felice Anno Nuovo!

Happy New Year to you too and to all the other people of the forum!

Rathna
01-01-2014, 07:05 AM
If someone comes up with the money for a big-Y I can get one of the Burkholder's to provide the sample.

I am waiting from three months my Chromo2 now, and it seems that L277 (S343) is tested. I have had also 23andMe and was L277-. As we have a reliable tree now (that of smal's) with many SNPs in series, I'll be able to verify my situation as to L277.
Of course a Big Y (or a Full Y) of Burkholder or any other L277+ would be interesting, also to verify the ancientness of L277+ (we have the 1KGP and these Big Y, or similar, of the paper on Jews, and what a pity they didn't test a Jewish L277+, seen that the L23+ Jewish cluster is formed of L277+ with an unique haplotype).
I always have 50$ donated for testing Mangino in the "Italy FTDNA Project", and who promised to test himself with Geno 2.0 in these Holydays. I have no news so far. In this case I have nothing against the fact that my money could be used for Burkholder. Of course if others will donate too.

Joe B
01-01-2014, 08:19 PM
Yes. Getting L277.1 testable was a series of technical issues but Thomas Krahn eventually got it worked out. Locking in on the one spot to capture the L277 SNP and not the 2nd mirror location was a technical mountain. Big-Y's for L277.1+ individuals would be interesting since there appear to be some additional sequence changes close to where one end of the primers needed to sit that complicated getting a true positive result. If someone comes up with the money for a big-Y I can get one of the Burkholder's to provide the sample.Thanks for your insight on the L277.1 struggle. Trying to reconstruct what went on from internet was confusing and read like a soap opera.
The Burkholder Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Burkholder/default.aspx) is very interesting and has some good L277.1 information. I wanted to give more prominence to the Burkholder family but they all point to the same spot near Bern. Also, it's not clear if only one person has tested for L277.1 in the Burkholder Project or more did. In other words, were the results replicated in two different individuals by the same testing technique?
I understand the desire to do the BigY and it would be informative. Getting more people to test for L277.1 be interesting too. There are only about 17 actual L277+ individuals from various testing techniques. Semargl shows about 24 L277.1 negative results. Mean while Mike W has identified ~25 potential L277.1+ 67 STR haplotypes that need to be tested. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1469-R1b-Early-Subclades-Haplotypes-Spreadsheet Many more can be found in the FTDNA projects that did not meet the STR criteria needed for the spreadsheet.
Maybe Thomas Krahn's new company could help. A YSEQ (http://www.yseq.net/) bullet point is intriguing and that may be another way to find near by SNPs. "+ Get other SNPs on same segment for FREE" Thomas Krahn should know how to dial in L277.1 better than most.
Any ideas on how to engage more project group administrators to increase L277.1 testing? Negative or positive results should be informative.

Silesian
01-01-2014, 08:45 PM
27 mutations out of 67 markers between me and Fega
26 mutations out of 67 markers between me and Silesian
36 mutations out of 67 markers between Silesian and Fega
I counted DYS385 = 2 mutation as to our 11-14, because 11-11 by a RecLOH and DYS385a from 11 to 10. Of course it isn't said that our 11-14 has remained unchanged whereas Fega had two mutations, just for the hidden mutations due the convergence to the modal etc.


Estimates +/-

Here are some comparisons using Czech 1180 A.D R1b from monastery, and various samples Italy,Germany, Poland, Czech, Ossetia, Russia, Swiss,Kazakhstan,Lithuania,Croatia [R1b L277+ Khazakh & Swiss]



Genetic Distance Report

Research Tools > Genetic Distance Report

User ID Last Name Origin Haplogroup Tested With Markers Compared Genetic Distance
U98VT skeleton HB02 Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko - Forensic DNA Service -1180AD -
KV7Y2-Italy 26/10-129 generations, 3870years
99SC2-Poland 25/7-88 generations, 2640years
5Y5EA-Ossetia 25/7-88 generations, 2640 years
FXJ53-Germany 25/12 -171 generations
KJ8UQ-Kazakhstan25/14-209 generations R1b L277+
VBRAM-Albania 25/28-619 generations
KJY63-Swiss 22/ 13-225 generations R1b L277+


Genetic Distance Report

Research Tools > Genetic Distance Report


U98VT skeleton HB02 Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko
DB9H7-Preußen/Prussia, Germany 25/ 3-35 generations 1050 years
HW54G-Jászság, Hungary, 25/4
D3TNG- Croatia 25/4
MK9TU-Silesia, Germany 25/5
XQHH7-Musnik, Lithuania 25/5
G538R-Tamov, Poland 25/6
CRQ37- Czech? 25/6
WF567-Poland 25/7
5Y5EA-Ossetia, Russia 25/7
99SC2-Silesia, Poland 25/7
FXJ53- Germany 25/12
KJ8UQ-Uralsk, Kazakhstan 25/14-R1b L277+
A7ERS-Rzeszow, Poland 22/2 -26 generations 780 years
CZ2K2-Posen/Pozna'n, Germany 22/3
DK6NG-Pisa, Italy 22/5
KJY63-Swiss? 22/13-R1b L277+
X9M4H-Silesia Poland 19/1 -15 generations 450 years

Albanian sample VBRAM seems quite distant from Czech 1180 A.D. sample, U98VT.

Cofgene
01-02-2014, 12:22 AM
Also, it's not clear if only one person has tested for L277.1 in the Burkholder Project or more did. In other words, were the results replicated in two different individuals by the same testing technique?


I thought we had the 2nd branch tested for L277 but I don't see it on the order list. It took some work just to get the L277+ result posted back to the one account 5 months after Thomas finally got the set of primers working as the original L277 order had disappeared from the system as a failure. I believe Thomas used 2 or 3 different samples to get the L277 primers locked in on. The push for L277 was that at that time based upon the 23andMe results it showed the presence of a new, very geographically diverse, haplogroup under L23. Having L277 carve out a subgroup of the R1b Cohamin before Sean's WTY was available was even more interesting. Generically we need to get about 20 L277+ lines collected and then move through Big-Y's to get the downstream branching defined.

Silesian
01-02-2014, 02:21 AM
R1B L277+ Swiss, Kazakhstan,Lebanon TMRCA estimates +/-.


Genetic Distance Report

Research Tools > Genetic Distance Report

Genetic Distance TMRCA KJ8UQ-Uralsk, Kazakhstan
KJ8UQ-Uralsk, Kazakhstan 0 generations R1b L277+
PKP7K-Lebanon 67/26 131 generations 3930 years R1b L277+
KJY63-Swiss 37/20 201 generations 6030 years R1b L277+

R1b L277+L584 TMRCA estimates +/-


7PJJJ -Westhofen, Germany 0 generations R1b L584+
JU9CG-Iraq 67/24
PKP7K-Lebanon 67/21 R1b L277+
KJ8UQ-Uralsk, Kazakhstan 67/25 R1b L277+
4H5MD-Egypt 67/27
RS5ZY-Aleppo, Syrian Arab 66/17 68 generations 2040 years R1b L584+
5TVQS-Iraqi Arab 66/32
KJY63-Swiss 37/17 R1b L277+
B9SCN-Iraq 34/16
VF3P5-Iraq 34/17

Joe B
01-02-2014, 03:22 AM
I thought we had the 2nd branch tested for L277 but I don't see it on the order list. It took some work just to get the L277+ result posted back to the one account 5 months after Thomas finally got the set of primers working as the original L277 order had disappeared from the system as a failure. I believe Thomas used 2 or 3 different samples to get the L277 primers locked in on. The push for L277 was that at that time based upon the 23andMe results it showed the presence of a new, very geographically diverse, haplogroup under L23. Having L277 carve out a subgroup of the R1b Cohamin before Sean's WTY was available was even more interesting. Generically we need to get about 20 L277+ lines collected and then move through Big-Y's to get the downstream branching defined.That sounds like it took some perseverance to get L277.1 right and take care of the Burkholders too. No doubt they are all L277.1+. There were a couple of other haplotypes that did not win that data battle and I relied on Humanist and Mike W for that information. Wish people would avail themselves to taking the L277.1 SNP test after all the work to get it correct. There are quite a few people in the R1b-Cohamin (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bCohane/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) and Jewish R1b (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) Projects that should test. Caucasus, Anatolia and other area projects too.
Speaking of L584, Goldschlager is doing the Big Y and wishes to move that ball along with more people testing L584. From R-L23/L150 to R-PF7580 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1586-From-R-L23-L150-to-R-PF7580)>L584
Your generic outline sounds great. I bet a targeted email from some of the ethnic and geographic project administrators and the 20 L277.1 lines goal is surpassed. Maybe a couple of Big Y tests will be encouraged too.
I read some of what is going on with R1b-U106 and really appreciate your thoughts. The R1b-Z2103 tree must look very simple in comparison.
Thanks again for the good infromation and happy new year.

Joe B
01-02-2014, 05:11 AM
Estimates +/-

Here are some comparisons using Czech 1180 A.D R1b from monastery, and various samples Italy,Germany, Poland, Czech, Ossetia, Russia, Swiss,Kazakhstan,Lithuania,Croatia [R1b L277+ Khazakh & Swiss]


The Czech monastery guy doesn't look like a L277+ but does have a DYS449=32 value. If he is R1b-Z2103+, he would share that value with the Oziembloski (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/oziemblowski/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) and Probasco (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/probasco-bartoszewski-bartos/default.aspx?section=yresults) projects. DYS449=32/33 is seen in Poland and also a member of this forum.
Happy New Year

Rathna
01-02-2014, 10:26 AM
The Czech monastery guy doesn't look like a L277+ but does have a DYS449=32 value. If he is R1b-Z2103+, he would share that value with the Oziembloski (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/oziemblowski/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) and Probasco (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/probasco-bartoszewski-bartos/default.aspx?section=yresults) projects. DYS449=32/33 is seen in Poland and also a member of this forum.

196634 Oziemblowski, Nizankowice (Przemysl), PL till 1939 R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 14 19 32 14-15-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 19 18 36-37 12 12
226570 Oziemblowski, Nizankowice (Przemysl), PL till 1939 R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 13 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14-15-16-17 10 11 19-22 15 15 19 18 36-37 12 12
169070 Oziemblowski, Nizankowice (Przemysl), PL till 1939 R1b1a2a
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 15 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 33 14-15-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
169072 Oziemblowski, Nizankowice (Przemysl), PL till 1939 R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 15 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 33 14-15-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 20 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
Of course this haplotype (because the Oziemblowski family belongs to an unique haplotype) is interesting. I'd reconstruct the modal like this:
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14-15-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 20 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
I think that this haplotype, like others which come from Central Europe, is close to mine. Taking in account my close relative Giancarlo Tognoni (H1621) and a Brazilian Anonymous (Ysearch: N92C5) but close to me (H1614 ), I could reconstruct it like this (67 markers):
12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
We can see that the two series
8 10 10 8 10 11
11 13 11 11 12 12
are probably close to the modal in me but with a mutation from 11 to 10 in DYS572 in Oziemblowski. I make you note that Silesian mutated in DYS640 from 11 to 10 and Bork in DYS640 from 11 to 12. I make you note also that Shomo, who seems pretty close to us for the markers values and has been tested Z2110+ (and this could be also our subclade!) coincides in these series with Bork.
This to say what? That I don't understand the analysis of Silesian based upon the Genetic Distance amongst these haplotypes. They of course shall be classified as to their subclade based upon Geno 2.0, Chromo2 or Big Y or, better, the Full Y. If he is trying to understand the link amongst them from the GD, it is dangerous just for the problem of the convergence which can not be exceeded if not by reconstructing the single modal step by step, what I am trying to do with this analysis and others I have done in the past.
Just for speaking of Tognarelli's haplotype (that I tested at my expense both with 23andMe and with 37 markers at FTDNA) it is necessary to put it in his history for understanding something. He comes from Pisa Province, a place near mine, but the family came from Lunigiana during the 15th century, in fact he has close matches there and also in one person from Corsica (Orsini Luciani). His haplotype is the most diffused (probably) amongst the Western European R-Z2105, in fact he finds many close matches at FTDNA whereas I have a few and the closest to me in YHRD are only 18 with a Western European and South American diffusion (of course of probably Western European ancestry and the Hui is thought by me of Roman descent, but this is all to demonstrate, seen that there is also a Han in 1KGP of probable Caucasian origin).
If we came back to the link between Oziemblowski and me I can say that the link seems very close, also in DYS464 I used in the past because this asset seems to last in the range of the thousands of years, i.e. from a supposed 14-15-16-18, we should have had 14-15-16-17 and from this my 14-14-16-17. The mutation of Oziemblowski in DYS572 from 11 to 10 could put the MRCA in the range of 0 to 4000 years. And the same for Silesian and Bork.

Joe B
01-10-2014, 05:30 AM
ISOGG added S334.1 as another name for L277.1 this week.

S334.1 R1b1a2a2b L277.1 rs2538852 10336023 9726023 9726023

Y-DNA Haplogroup R and its Subclades - 2014 (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html)


International Society of Genetic Genealogy (2014). Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree 2014, Version: Version: 9.04 , Date: 7 January 2014, http://www.isogg.org/tree/ 9 January 2014.

Rathna
01-10-2014, 06:49 AM
ISOGG added S334.1 as another name for L277.1 this week.

S334.1 R1b1a2a2b L277.1 rs2538852 10336023 9726023 9726023

Y-DNA Haplogroup R and its Subclades - 2014 (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html)


International Society of Genetic Genealogy (2014). Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree 2014, Version: Version: 9.04 , Date: 7 January 2014, http://www.isogg.org/tree/ 9 January 2014.

This is the answer of 23andMe to the L277.1 (S334.1) SNP:

Gene Position SNP Versions Genotypes
intergenic 9726023 rs2538852 C or T
no call Francesca Guarino
T Gioiello Tognoni
T Giorgio Tognarelli
no call Monica De Conti
no call Silvana Vagelli
T Velthur Tognoni

smal
01-11-2014, 12:15 PM
If someone of L277+ wants to verify the new (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1727-R1b-phylogeny&p=26401&viewfull=1#post26401) topology of the Z2103 tree , he should order in YSEQ (http://shop.yseq.net/) some of the following possible SNP tests:

R1b-L277
Y:14054313 G->A
Y:16193434 A->T
Y: 16387123 C->T
Y: 17040958 G->A
Y: 23399063 G->T

These SNPs were founded by Rootsi et al. 2013 (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html).

Joe B
04-28-2014, 09:38 PM
If someone of L277+ wants to verify the new (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1727-R1b-phylogeny&p=26401&viewfull=1#post26401) topology of the Z2103 tree , he should order in YSEQ (http://shop.yseq.net/) some of the following possible SNP tests:

R1b-L277
Y:14054313 G->A
Y:16193434 A->T
Y: 16387123 C->T
Y: 17040958 G->A
Y: 23399063 G->T

These SNPs were founded by Rootsi et al. 2013 (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html).

YSEQ 39 = FTDNA 234905 (L277+) Z2104+ Z2107+

Yes. Getting L277.1 testable was a series of technical issues but Thomas Krahn eventually got it worked out. Locking in on the one spot to capture the L277 SNP and not the 2nd mirror location was a technical mountain. Big-Y's for L277.1+ individuals would be interesting since there appear to be some additional sequence changes close to where one end of the primers needed to sit that complicated getting a true positive result. If someone comes up with the money for a big-Y I can get one of the Burkholder's to provide the sample.
The first big news for L277.1 is the title of this thread needs to change. Z2106+ for a L277.1(S334.1) at YSEQ (http://www.yseq.net/). Thanks number 39 and smal. That leaves Z2108 and Z2109 that need to be tested by someone. The Z-SNPs are really challenging in this area, just like L277.1 was for Sanger sequencing. Has a L277.1(S334.1) taken the Chrome 2 test? Pretty sure they cover Z2109. Otherwise the $25 per SNP price might make this worth exploring.

smal
04-29-2014, 05:10 PM
Z2106+ for a L277.1(S334.1) at YSEQ (http://www.yseq.net/). That leaves Z2108 and Z2109 that need to be tested by someone.

But L277 was tested in YSEQ only for Z2104 and Z2107. Z2106 is unknown for L277+. But if NA20532 is really L277+ then L277+ is Z2108- Z2109-.

Joe B
04-29-2014, 06:24 PM
But L277 was tested in YSEQ only for Z2104 and Z2107. Z2106 is unknown for L277+. But if NA20532 is really L277+ then L277+ is Z2108- Z2109-.
Number 39 should go ahead and place an order for Z2106 now and not wait for my results. It's too important to wait. Krahn should understand and muscle this test through.
Z2103, Z2104, Z2105, Z2106 and Z2110 are in the YSEQ catalog (http://shop.yseq.net/index.php?manufacturers_id=34).

brygian
04-30-2014, 03:42 PM
Number 39 should go ahead and place an order for Z2106 now and not wait for my results. It's too important to wait. Krahn should understand and muscle this test through.
Z2103, Z2104, Z2105, Z2106 and Z2110 are in the YSEQ catalog (http://shop.yseq.net/index.php?manufacturers_id=34).

If you've been waiting for more than two months for the Z2106 test, probably you should contact YSEQ. I lost the link but somewhere I read a letter from Thomas himself from the time he was still employed at FTDNA. He mentioned that more than two months is not normal for an SNP test and mentioned that tougher tests tend to be forgotten.

Joe B
04-30-2014, 05:43 PM
If you've been waiting for more than two months for the Z2106 test, probably you should contact YSEQ. I lost the link but somewhere I read a letter from Thomas himself from the time he was still employed at FTDNA. He mentioned that more than two months is not normal for an SNP test and mentioned that tougher tests tend to be forgotten.
Normally YSEQ is very fast. This case is different. Z2106 is in a region with a huge STR, something like 600 bases long. So my agreement is to try the test, on my dime, to see if the primer design will work. It's only been a month on the Z2106 test. YSEQ hasn't let me down yet.

Joe B
05-03-2014, 03:13 PM
Results for Z2106 are positive and goes nicely with my Z2107-.
1808
The additional SNPs that were tested in the process are Z2357, YSC0000168 and PF4693, all negative.
Please join Group R1b-L23_Z2103 & Subclades at YSEQ and post your results for research.

brygian
05-03-2014, 03:21 PM
Results for Z2106 are positive and goes nicely with my Z2107-.
1808
Additional SNPs that were tested in the process were Z2357, YSC0000168 and PF4693, all negative.
Please join Group R1b-L23_Z2103 & Subclades at YSEQ and post your results for research.

Good to hear that Krahn has understood Z2106 at the end. I've already joined the group and am awaiting results for 9 SNPs and am going to order five more.

smal
05-03-2014, 03:55 PM
Something is wrong in tree. I will check everything again.

Joe B
05-03-2014, 04:09 PM
Something is wrong in tree. I will check everything again.
There is nothing wrong with your work smal. We are just learning new things and starting to fill in some of the unknowns about the R1b-Z2103 haplogroup. Looking forward to your new analysis. Bet we all are.

brygian
05-03-2014, 05:05 PM
Results for Z2106 are positive and goes nicely with my Z2107-.


Something is wrong in tree. I will check everything again.

Do we have somebody who is Z2106+ and Z2107+ at the same time? Pity that I can't order Z2107 and Z2108.

Joe B
05-03-2014, 08:50 PM
Do we have somebody who is Z2106+ and Z2107+ at the same time? Pity that I can't order Z2107 and Z2108.No we don't, that's why it is critical to get #39, who is Z2107+, L277.1+ to test for Z2106. In reality my results should have been posted on Z2103, Z2104, Z2105, Z2106, Z2107, Z2108, Z2109, Z2110 & Sanger sequencing (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2246-Z2103-Z2104-Z2105-Z2106-Z2107-Z2108-Z2109-Z2110-amp-Sanger-sequencing). Guess L277.1 was on my mind and will repost the results there.

brygian
05-03-2014, 09:03 PM
Can't we just ask him to test Z2106? He participates in a number of projects at FTDNA including R1b1a2 (P312- U106-). I will rise the question about Z2107 and Z2108 the next time I order from YSEQ - it is strange that others have ordered but I was denied the test. Is there another company that offers these two?

Joe B
05-10-2014, 07:07 PM
Possible L277.1 haplotype has done the Big Y. No L277.1 SNP test, however, he has DYS392=14, DYS389II=28 and 111STRs. FTDNA has him as a R-V221, the new haplogroup for when they can't figure it out. R1b Gateway Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b,r1b/default.aspx?vgroup=r1b%2cr1b&section=ysnp) #236189

Joe B
05-24-2014, 06:32 PM
But L277 was tested in YSEQ only for Z2104 and Z2107. Z2106 is unknown for L277+. But if NA20532 is really L277+ then L277+ is Z2108- Z2109-.



Having this, YSEQ #39 (FTDNA 234905) L277+ Z2104+ Z2107+ has ordered the A368 test in Yseq. So, we are waiting for both Z2106 and A368 results for the L277 branch now.
A368 could help answer some of the L277.1 branch questions about precise placement on the R1b-Z2103 haplotree. Who else needs to test SNP A368 for verification?
Couldn't help but notice that NA20532 is a DYS393=13, does this Tuscan have a connnection to the Swiss R1b-L277.1? Burkholder - Burkhalter Surname Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Burkholder/default.aspx?section=ycolorized)

smal
05-24-2014, 07:07 PM
A368 could help answer some of the L277.1 branch questions about precise placement on the R1b-Z2103 haplotree. Who else needs to test SNP A368 for verification?
I think we should wait for first result.


Couldn't help but notice that NA20532 is a DYS393=13, does this Tuscan have a connnection to the Swiss R1b-L277.1? Burkholder - Burkhalter Surname Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Burkholder/default.aspx?section=ycolorized)
It's hard to say but it is possible.

Joe B
05-25-2014, 07:01 AM
Delete post please