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Táltos
12-18-2013, 01:10 AM
Hello I have been wondering if there are any STRs for a Q1b1a that are significant for genealogy or ancestry beside DYF395S1? My brother's kit is awaiting the last three panels for the 67 marker upgrade. In the 25 marker level he has two that are different from most matches. They are DYS447=24, mode in the project=25, and DYS449=30 for him. Mode for that one=29. In the 37 marker his CDY=32-39, the mode is 33-38. A lot in the project look to have different numbers at CDY, however not very many seem to be the 32-39. Thank you in advance for any help.

Táltos
12-19-2013, 10:18 PM
MY brother's panel 4 came in today. DYS425=0. When I look at the Haplogroup Q Project, it looks like all Q1b men across the board have a value of 0 here. It doesn't matter if they are from Eastern Europe, Ireland, Netherlands, Portugal, Germany, Dagestan, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, India, Uzbekistan, or Kazakhstan. So no difference of Jewish vs non-Jewish. I think there was maybe only 3 or 4 of the the various Q1a types that have a 0 at this marker. What's up with that???

Joe B
12-19-2013, 11:22 PM
MY brother's panel 4 came in today. DYS425=0. When I look at the Haplogroup Q Project, it looks like all Q1b men across the board have a value of 0 here. It doesn't matter if they are from Eastern Europe, Ireland, Netherlands, Portugal, Germany, Dagestan, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, India, Uzbekistan, or Kazakhstan. So no difference of Jewish vs non-Jewish. I think there was maybe only 3 or 4 of the the various Q1a types that have a 0 at this marker. What's up with that???
There is a whole project dedicated to 425=0. Null425 Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/null425/default.aspx)
ISOGG wiki http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Null_value page has some information and links.

A null value is the term used when a DNA laboratory is unable to determine a value for a short tandem repeat (STR) marker on the Y-chromosome.

Táltos
12-20-2013, 02:46 AM
Thank you very much Joe. I never heard of this. I can see from the links that you gave me that some R1b, and E1b also have issues with this. It looks to cover all subclades of Q1b. I wonder what that means for the haplogroup as a whole? Such as is it a deep ancestry implication? If I understand what I have read about the tree for Q, Q1b is close to the ancestral Q.

Táltos
12-20-2013, 03:27 AM
I also want to add the rest of my brother's panels just appeared! As per the DYF395S1=15-19, we are in the Ashkenazi cluster! :beerchug: I still hope there will be more discoveries made about how this subclade entered the Jewish population. The guys that belong to this appear to be in their own caste. :)

On a side note for those of you who used to follow the Batch Calender at FTDNA that is now closed. My brother's test had been in Batch 542, batched 11.14.2013, the expected date was 12.31.2013. Some of the first Big Y orders are in this batch. So hopefully they are moving things along quickly to get Big Y results out.

palamede
12-20-2013, 04:57 PM
I also want to add the rest of my brother's panels just appeared! As per the DYF395S1=15-19, we are in the Ashkenazi cluster! :beerchug: I still hope there will be more discoveries made about how this subclade entered the Jewish population. The guys that belong to this appear to be in their own caste. :)

On a side note for those of you who used to follow the Batch Calender at FTDNA that is now closed. My brother's test had been in Batch 542, batched 11.14.2013, the expected date was 12.31.2013. Some of the first Big Y orders are in this batch. So hopefully they are moving things along quickly to get Big Y results out.
If the number of repetitions STR could not been determined (Null Value), this could be due to a neighbouring mutation which prevents from locating the STR.

My BIG Y is also in Batch 542 but my expected date was reported from 12.31.2013 to 02.28.2014 (possible mid-february) and I think it is general.

Humanist
12-20-2013, 05:06 PM
I also want to add the rest of my brother's panels just appeared! As per the DYF395S1=15-19, we are in the Ashkenazi cluster! :beerchug: I still hope there will be more discoveries made about how this subclade entered the Jewish population. The guys that belong to this appear to be in their own caste. :)

Congrats! :) Have you considered full y-dna testing? It is rather expensive at the moment.

Táltos
12-22-2013, 04:05 AM
If the number of repetitions STR could not been determined (Null Value), this could be due to a neighbouring mutation which prevents from locating the STR.

My BIG Y is also in Batch 542 but my expected date was reported from 12.31.2013 to 02.28.2014 (possible mid-february) and I think it is general.
Thank you for further information on this phenomenon. I just looked through the Haplogroup Q project and noticed another odd thing about all the subclades of Q1b. Almost all, maybe two or three guys don't have this, but on DYS413 which is right after the DYS425=0, the DYS413=22-22. The other ones are 21-22 or 22-24.

Good luck on your Big Y results. I hope you discover many new SNPs. Fingers crossed that some results do start coming in by mid-Feb. Please post what you find out.

Táltos
12-22-2013, 04:25 AM
Congrats! :) Have you considered full y-dna testing? It is rather expensive at the moment.

Thank you! Yes eventually I would like to have the full yDNA testing done. Unfortunately it is not in my budget at this time. I am lucky I finally have got this far. I have wanted to test my father since the early 2000's when all the hype was out about testing for the Genghis Khan gene! I do have to say I understand so much more now than then. I still have a lot to learn. My father if he was alive, I am sure he would be thrilled with his haplogroup.:)
And I thank you for taking an interest in our haplogroup. I do find your posts to be very helpful. One question? Because you brought up about the Q1b's and Khazar theory in the other thread about the new R1a paper. Do you think there is a close relationship with these two haplogroups traveling together. Not necessarily for Khazar theory, but for other ones. I have read on Eupedia that they were linking the two coming into the Middle East together with the Indo-Iranian migrations from Central Asia during the late Bronze Age. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

Táltos
04-14-2014, 01:22 PM
There is a whole project dedicated to 425=0. Null425 Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/null425/default.aspx)
ISOGG wiki http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Null_value page has some information and links.
One of my brother's new matches is a GD of 6 at the 67 marker. When I look at this man's STRs to compare, at DYS425 he has nothing listed. No zero, zip , nada, it is blank. Every Q1b that I can see has a value of 0 listed here. Because this new match has a blank at this marker he is counted at a GD of 6. I am wondering if it is reasonable for me to infer that he and my brother are really at a GD of 5 because it is always 0 at this marker for a Q1b? If anyone knows, or has an opinion I would most appreciate it.

Táltos
04-15-2014, 02:50 PM
One of my brother's new matches is a GD of 6 at the 67 marker. When I look at this man's STRs to compare, at DYS425 he has nothing listed. No zero, zip , nada, it is blank. Every Q1b that I can see has a value of 0 listed here. Because this new match has a blank at this marker he is counted at a GD of 6. I am wondering if it is reasonable for me to infer that he and my brother are really at a GD of 5 because it is always 0 at this marker for a Q1b? If anyone knows, or has an opinion I would most appreciate it.
Bump. Anybody? Any thoughts?

lgmayka
04-15-2014, 10:12 PM
My understanding is that FTDNA used to declare a Null after 3 tries. More recently, FTDNA (at least sometimes) tries to find the cause of the apparent Null, which may be a nearby SNP. If so, FTDNA may then use alternative primers to read the actual STR value.

Táltos
04-16-2014, 03:22 AM
My understanding is that FTDNA used to declare a Null after 3 tries. More recently, FTDNA (at least sometimes) tries to find the cause of the apparent Null, which may be a nearby SNP. If so, FTDNA may then use alternative primers to read the actual STR value.
Thanks, yes I had read that somewhere too about declaring a Null after three tries. I'm just confused why at DYS425, FTDNA left it completely blank for this guy. I am starting to wonder if it is some kind of "buggy" glitch in the FTDNA website? If it is blank space for this marker in the project one would think it should read 0 there. Especially as every Q1b has a 0 at this marker. Well this could be a first, so I shouldn't assume. His father line also has a very interesting history. FTDNA is counting this blank space as part of the GD. This makes me wonder if this man is missing matches that he should have because of the lack of an actual 0 there as place holder. Place holder maybe not the best words to describe, but to show there is some kind of number there not a blank space.

Шад
04-18-2014, 07:29 PM
Thanks, yes I had read that somewhere too about declaring a Null after three tries. I'm just confused why at DYS425, FTDNA left it completely blank for this guy. I am starting to wonder if it is some kind of "buggy" glitch in the FTDNA website? If it is blank space for this marker in the project one would think it should read 0 there. Especially as every Q1b has a 0 at this marker. Well this could be a first, so I shouldn't assume. His father line also has a very interesting history. FTDNA is counting this blank space as part of the GD. This makes me wonder if this man is missing matches that he should have because of the lack of an actual 0 there as place holder. Place holder maybe not the best words to describe, but to show there is some kind of number there not a blank space.

See also: Null425 Project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/null425/default.aspx?section=goals
For all Q-L245 DYS425=Null. Sometimes null is denoted 0 (it is wrong).

Táltos
04-19-2014, 04:29 AM
For all Q-L245 DYS425=Null. Sometimes null is denoted 0 (it is wrong).
So when you say it is wrong, do you mean DYS425 is part of DYF371? In the Null425 Project it shows Q-L245=10c-10c-13c-15c at DYF371. Please forgive my confusion.

Шад
04-20-2014, 04:27 PM
DYF371 is a multicopy, palindromic region marker. Includes the DYS425 marker & can be informative in cases of null values at that marker.


DYS425, when it can be measured, is very stable. However it is actually one copy of a multiple part marker, DYF371 (below), and as such recLOH mutations can often make it unmeasurable when the other copies overwrite it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Y-STR_markers

NULL means the inability to correct measurement.

Táltos
04-21-2014, 05:11 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Y-STR_markers

NULL means the inability to correct measurement.
Шад thanks for the taking the time to explain this to me, (Null DYS425, DYF371). But because as you mentioned that for all Q-L245 DYS425=Null, why does FTDNA list nothing at this marker for this man? I'm sorry if as the saying goes I'm beating a dead horse :deadhorse: with this question. I just find it weird that FTDNA would not denote 0 for this match at DYS425.

Here are the differences between my brother and this match that makes FTDNA say the GD=6.


My brother CDY=32-39 DYS442=12 DYS425=0 DYS557=16 DYS444=11
His match CDY=34-38 DYS442=13 DYS425= DYS557=17 DYS444=12

Táltos
04-28-2014, 01:38 PM
I am starting to wonder if it is some kind of "buggy" glitch in the FTDNA website?
Well in looking at my own FF matches at FTDNA today I realized I'm missing my five most recent matches. So this just prompted me to look at my brother's Y DNA matches. Lo and behold they actually did something right! This match that I have been talking about is now at a GD of 5 this morning and not a GD of 6. When I looked at his markers though FTDNA still kept his DYS425 a blank space. Still it's progress, and I don't feel like I'm losing my mind anymore!