The Z39589 Founder

[rms2]

I was bored this morning and thinking about how huge the Z39589 branch under DF13 is. It made me wonder if the Z39589 founder was some sort of Genghis Khan-type chieftain or king in the British Isles who fathered a boatload of sons, many of whom must have been Genghis Khan-types in their own right.

So I made a tree showing the path of my own terminal SNP underneath Z39589 and DF41.

30710


You can ignore my personal stuff. Just notice how many clades under Z39589 there are, some of them pretty major.

[alan]

Certainly lineage survival to today shows that the branch had a huge advantage for a sustained period. Or perhaps it is simply that the branch was by chance the main carrier in the isles of Beaker type autosomal genetics and those autosomal genetics conferred advantage. Or perhaps it was by chance the main utiliser of the beaker socio-subsistence model in the isles. Something definitely gave a higher ability to produce offspring that survived and in turn had offspring that also survived and so on. The key thing is this was a sustained advantage over many centuries rather than an event or Great War. There is a lot of interesting new data about how the bell beakers seem to have introduced a new more successful farming subsistence model that seems to have worked better than the farming model introduced by the first isles farmers c 4000BC. That model seems to have started failing within just a few centuries of the farmers settling the isles. The 1st farmers arrived at period of peak conditions in NW Europe and it seems the traditional farming and settlement model they brought was caught out when a long period of wetter weather set in soon after. After 3000BC settlements of substance became v scarce while monster ritual monuments with a solar obsession are being built - which probably was reflecting the concerns about the wet climate of the era.

[rms2]

Maybe that advantage was the addition of pastoralism.

[TigerMW]

Certainly lineage survival to today shows that the branchad a huge advantage for a sustained period. Or perhaps it is simply that the branch was by chance the main carrier in the isles of Beaker type autosomal genetics and those autosomal genetics conferred advantage. Or perhaps it was by chance the main utiliser of the beaker socio-subsistence model in the isles. Something definitely gave a higher ability to produce offspring that survived and in turn had offspring that also survived and so on. The key thing is this was a sustained advantage over many centuries rather than an event or Great War. There is a lot of interesting new data about how the bell beakers seem to have introduced a new more successful farming subsistence model that seems to have worked better than the farming model introduced by the first isles farmers c 4000BC. That model seems to have started failing within just a few centuries of the farmers settling the isles. The 1st farmers arrived at period of peak conditions in NW Europe and it seems the traditional farming and settlement model they brought was caught out when a long period of wetter weather set in soon after. After 3000BC settlements of substance became v scarce while monster ritual monuments with a solar obsession are being built - which probably was reflecting the concerns about the wet climate of the era.

I don't think it is an either or where it was a "great war" or technological/cultural advantages.

We've had wars, or at least violent conflicts between peoples, carry on for hundreds of years. I hate to start listing them as it will bring us in to modern politics and idealogies.

I think it is obvious that a new society came in and took over from the top, probably with some significant violence along the way. Over time, various types of oppression were just part of the systems that led to dominance in some male lines. It's only been in the modern era when slavery has largely been stopped, feudalism ended, etc.

This may not have appeared to be a great war because it was too one sided. It is what it is. It must have been an oppressive society. It doesn't make these particular folks more morally bankrupt than their opposition, they just happened to be very successful.

Well, that's probably not very politically correct.

I just don't see how these male lineages were so successful without significant on-going violence and oppression, unless there is a significant biological advantage in these particular Y chromosomes. There was just too much mixing on the autosomal DNA (intermarriages between the old and new) for a long lived autosomal advantage.

Advantageous and more diversified food production would allow for larger families (children reaching adulthood), but this only fueled the need for more and better land acquisition.

[alan]

I don't think it is an either or where it was a "great war" or technological/cultural advantages.

We've had wars, or at least violent conflicts between peoples, carry on for hundreds of years. I hate to start listing them as it will bring us in to modern politics and idealogies.

I think it is obvious that a new society came in and took over from the top, probably with some significant violence along the way. Over time, various types of oppression were just part of the systems that led to dominance in some male lines. It's only been in the modern era when slavery has largely been stopped, feudalism ended, etc.

This may not have appeared to be a great war because it was too one sided. It is what it is. It must have been an oppressive society. It doesn't make these particular folks more morally bankrupt than their opposition, they just happened to be very successful.

Well, that's probably not very politically correct.

I just don't see how these male lineages were so successful without significant on-going violence and oppression, unless there is a significant biological advantage in these particular Y chromosomes. There was just too much mixing on the autosomal DNA (intermarriages between the old and new) for a long lived autosomal advantage.

Advantageous and more diversified food production would allow for larger families (children reaching adulthood), but this only fueled the need for more and better land acquisition.

By great war, I just meant that it wasnt like the D-day landings. Polities were probably extemely localised then overlaid by a much wider contact network. I agree, at some point, even if they initially lived side by side in some sort of toleration (perhaps different spheres), the growth of the beaker lineages would have fairly quickly caused conflict.

[danieldgray]

Isn’t it more likely Z39589 originally flourished with founder descendants in one or two unique epicenters (e.g. Brittany, Ireland, Frisia/Netherlands/Jutland or Sweden) from which there was a diaspora. This was a sea faring culture that had a constant flow of descendants to less populated areas in Wales, England, Scotland, Ireland, Hebrides and Iceland via ships exploring the coastlines which was not similarly replicated by other descendants of L21. This diaspora may have been voluntary (e.g. Somerled/Vikings) or involuntary due to war or climate change in the mother territory (e.g Fir Bolg or Tuatha De Danan displacement in Lebor Gabala Erenn or continued floods in the Netherlands). This gave them the genealogical advantage as various subclades from the mother territory continued to immigrate to the same underpopulated areas over centuries. It would be similar to the migration of individuals from Europe to the New World due to opportunity, war and famine. Transportation via sea to underpopulated areas, advanced farming/fishing techniques, technological advantages in war, greater procreation rate and more disease resistant gene pool led to a dominant presence.

[rms2]

Don't know. Seems likely to me that Z39589 was born among Kurgan Bell Beaker in the Isles, but, as I said, I don't know.

[Peter MacDonald]

Don't know. Seems likely to me that Z39589 was born among Kurgan Bell Beaker in the Isles, but, as I said, I don't know.

Any guess/speculation as to where Z39589 would have originated in the Isles (i.e. Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England....etc.)?

[rms2]

Any guess/speculation as to where Z39589 would have originated in the Isles (i.e. Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England....etc.)?

I'm not sure. Somewhere in Britain is my guess, but I can't say where.