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View Full Version : Is/was there a genetic cline between AASI and negrito(Onge-like) populations?



Censored
06-02-2019, 12:53 AM
Considering the fact that the Haobinhan sample from Laos on nMonte is very Onge/Jarawa like, we can assume that the native negrito population of SE Asia was similar to them. We also know that the simulated AASI_South by DMXX seems intermediate between AASI NW and Hoabinhan/Onge. Given this, was there some sort of AASI/Negrito genetic structure? Similar to how EHG and WSHG are part of the same cline?

I asked this on another thread but I didnt get any response. I'm still very foggy on how South Asia and Southeast Asia are interconnected.

okarinaofsteiner
07-29-2019, 06:39 AM
Hoabinhian is most likely a sister population to Onge/Jarawa but is also very distinct from them, and more distant still from the "Negrito" populations of the Malay Peninsula and the Philippines- not to mention the Wallaceans or Papuans.

Many SE Asians score traces of "ASI"/"South_Indian" in MDLP K23b. This GEDmatch calculator also has Papuan-like and Polynesian-like "Australoid" components, so this suggests that the "ASI" ancestry component is a better proxy for Hoabinhian/"Ancestral SE Asian" among extant "Mongoloid" SE Asians.

Censored
07-29-2019, 01:48 PM
Hoabinhian is most likely a sister population to Onge/Jarawa but is also very distinct from them, and more distant still from the "Negrito" populations of the Malay Peninsula and the Philippines- not to mention the Wallaceans or Papuans.

Many SE Asians score traces of "ASI"/"South_Indian" in MDLP K23b. This GEDmatch calculator also has Papuan-like and Polynesian-like "Australoid" components, so this suggests that the "ASI" ancestry component is a better proxy for Hoabinhian/"Ancestral SE Asian" among extant "Mongoloid" SE Asians.

What evidence is there that hoabinian is very distinct from onge?

okarinaofsteiner
07-30-2019, 05:24 PM
What evidence is there that hoabinian is very distinct from onge?

Onge, Hoabinhian proper, and AASI proper (i.e. Indian subcontinent specific) are probably all quite distant from each other due to geographic isolation. There may have been a cline among all three ancient populations, but it would probably have been like how there is a cline of Continental East Asian-to-Austronesian ancestry among modern-day SE Asians, from Tibeto-Burmans in Myanmar to Khmers to pribumis (Native Indonesians) to Filipinos and Taiwanese aborigines.

Censored
07-30-2019, 09:08 PM
Onge, Hoabinhian proper, and AASI proper (i.e. Indian subcontinent specific) are probably all quite distant from each other due to geographic isolation. There may have been a cline among all three ancient populations, but it would probably have been like how there is a cline of Continental East Asian-to-Austronesian ancestry among modern-day SE Asians, from Tibeto-Burmans in Myanmar to Khmers to pribumis (Native Indonesians) to Filipinos and Taiwanese aborigines.

No the distance is rather close

"sample": "Jarawa:Average",
"fit": 3.7979,
"LAO_Hoabinhian": 100,

Cambodian vs. Burmese:
"sample": "Cambodian:Average",
"fit": 10.3113,
"Burmese": 100,

AASI is distinct but I think that indigenous SE Asians were probably of the same stock as the islanders.

K33
07-30-2019, 10:48 PM
The nMonte distance from Onge to Hoabhinian is low enough to demonstrate the former are quite obviously the direct descendants of Hoabhinian refugees who took to the sea after farming groups moved into SE Asia. In other words, Onge are not some indigenous Paleolithic relic population as sometimes formerly surmised, but unadmixed descendants of SE Asian HG groups once much more widespread.

As for the original question, Ryukendo put forward a broad outline a few years ago that still might be relevant: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7094-Ancient-DNA-from-Asia&p=155724&viewfull=1#post155724

I think generally East/South Asian "deep" population history will be very complex, with a "starburst" phylogeny of various HG groups peeling off from one another throughout the Paleolithic after the initial entry into E/S Asia. The Neolithic would have had a "leveling" effect here, just as in Europe and MENA, but in East/South Asia I believe this effect was even more pronounced due to the monumental effects of the expansion of the Chinese and Indian empires.

okarinaofsteiner
07-31-2019, 04:09 AM
No the distance is rather close

"sample": "Jarawa:Average",
"fit": 3.7979,
"LAO_Hoabinhian": 100,

Cambodian vs. Burmese:
"sample": "Cambodian:Average",
"fit": 10.3113,
"Burmese": 100,

AASI is distinct but I think that indigenous SE Asians were probably of the same stock as the islanders.

Yeah that's a better and more evidence-based way of putting it. Thank you K33 for better articulating what I was trying to say in my previous posts.

Which calculator are those nMonte results based on?

Tomenable
08-01-2019, 02:08 AM
Onge, Hoabinhian proper, and AASI proper (i.e. Indian subcontinent specific) are probably all quite distant from each other due to geographic isolation.

Censored is right. The Andamanese are surprisingly close to Hoabinhians (maybe there were migrations - by boats - of Hoabinhians to Andaman Islands long after the Last Ice Age).


The nMonte distance from Onge to Hoabhinian is low enough to demonstrate the former are quite obviously the direct descendants of Hoabhinian refugees who took to the sea after farming groups moved into SE Asia. In other words, Onge are not some indigenous Paleolithic relic population as sometimes formerly surmised, but unadmixed descendants of SE Asian HG groups once much more widespread.

^^^
This is probable. Their admixture percentages are very similar.

Kale
08-01-2019, 05:13 AM
Onge and Hoabinhian form a weak clade if any. They are only 'close' in that they behave similarly in relation to other populations.
Something like D: Outgroup Hoabhinian Onge East_Asian
may not even reach significance. And that's with the potential of East Asians having a small dose of ANE to bias it in that direction anyways.