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Tomenable
06-04-2019, 04:01 AM
Along the coastline strip of land shorter than e.g. distance from Cracow to Lublin in Poland (less than 200 km), there is a big difference in genetics:

1. French person from Charente-Maritime (although more distant ancestors could be from Aquitaine), most similar to Basques and South Europe:

https://i.imgur.com/Dia9YJN.png

2. French person from Pays Nantais (Loire-Atlantique) - Armorican lands before Roman conquest - most similar to Bretons, Armoricans and Brits:

https://i.imgur.com/onhvQMo.png

^^^ You can compare to the distribution of tribes in Pre-Roman Western Europe:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/7y2is8/i_drew_a_map_of_the_preroman_peoples_of_western/

https://i.imgur.com/wx3QCnO.png

Tomenable
06-04-2019, 04:15 AM
And their results in K15 mapping: https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

Pays Nantais sample:

Abscisse (x-axis): 274 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 172 pixel

Charentes-Maritime:

Abscisse (x-axis): 144 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 201 pixel

https://i.imgur.com/imFhSyt.png

Bealfire
06-04-2019, 04:33 AM
Not surprising it's gascon territory

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Los_dialectes_de_l%27occitan.jpg

Trelvern
06-04-2019, 05:00 AM
Not surprising it's gascon territory

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Los_dialectes_de_l%27occitan.jpg


Charente maritime a gascon territory?
Not really
Square 2 is centered on the "Bordelais" and Landes

30766

Ruderico
06-04-2019, 09:19 AM
I'd rather see more than just one sample per location before making conclusions, even if this isn't really too surprising. And I'd use K13 or K15 (and not that PCA jpg which is terrible nowadays) instead of K36

Tomenable
06-04-2019, 01:20 PM
I'd rather see more than just one sample per location before making conclusions

That Pays Nantais sample is an academic sample from an official study.

But there is only one from this region in the whole dataset (30 samples from all over Northern France). I have more samples from Brittany and from Aquitaine - I can tell you that other Brittany samples are similar to this Pays Nantais and other Aquitaine samples are similar to this Charente-Maritime.

I chose those two because they represent the southernmost and northernmost examples of their respective clusters (Armorican/Breton and Aquitanian).

There is a genetically intermediate zone too (most of Pays de la Loire and Poitou-Charentes are intermediate, West-Central).


I'd use K13 or K15

Here are their K15 results:

Population
North_Sea 35.29 Pct
Atlantic 26.65 Pct
Baltic 9.89 Pct
Eastern_Euro 7.08 Pct
West_Med 10.07 Pct
West_Asian 3.47 Pct
East_Med 5.65 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian 0.16 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.48 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.74 Pct
Sub-Saharan 0.53 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 4.19
(...)

Population
North_Sea 19.07 Pct
Atlantic 45.26 Pct
Baltic 5.95 Pct
Eastern_Euro 1.10 Pct
West_Med 22.76 Pct
West_Asian -
East_Med 3.20 Pct
Red_Sea 1.92 Pct
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.37 Pct
Oceanian 0.15 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.24 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French_Basque 3.64
(...)

Trelvern
06-04-2019, 01:34 PM
That Pays Nantais sample is an academic sample from an official study.

But there is only one from this region in the whole dataset (30 samples from all over Northern France). I have more samples from Brittany and from Aquitaine - I can tell you that other Brittany samples are similar to this Pays Nantais and other Aquitaine samples are similar to this Charente-Maritime.

I chose those two because they represent the southernmost and northernmost examples of their respective clusters (Armorican/Breton and Aquitanian).

There is a genetically intermediate zone as well (most of Pays de la Loire and Poitou-Charentes are intermediate).



Here are their K15 results:

Population
North_Sea 35.29 Pct
Atlantic 26.65 Pct
Baltic 9.89 Pct
Eastern_Euro 7.08 Pct
West_Med 10.07 Pct
West_Asian 3.47 Pct
East_Med 5.65 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian 0.16 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.48 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.74 Pct
Sub-Saharan 0.53 Pct

Population
North_Sea 19.07 Pct
Atlantic 45.26 Pct
Baltic 5.95 Pct
Eastern_Euro 1.10 Pct
West_Med 22.76 Pct
West_Asian -
East_Med 3.20 Pct
Red_Sea 1.92 Pct
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.37 Pct
Oceanian 0.15 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.24 Pct


This academic study?
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201417530768
30769


"Performing a clustering analysis with admixture at both K=2 and K=3, we found that the admixture coefficients were correlated with geography (P<10−16 when regressing admixture coefficients with latitude and longitude). With K=2, admixture separated some of the Bretons from the rest of the sample (Supplementary Figure 2), and this cluster was again found with K=3 (green cluster in Figure 1). When averaging the ancestry of individuals within each department, we found that the ancestry component corresponding to the Bretons (green cluster) was larger in the three departments at the western end of Brittany (Finistère, Côtes d’Armor, Morbihan, see Supplementary Figure 3). With K=3, the ancestry of some individuals, many of them coming from the Vendée Department and from the south of the Maine-et-Loire department, differed from the rest of the sample (the blue cluster in Figure 1, see also Supplementary Figure 3)."

Tomenable
06-04-2019, 01:38 PM
No it is from Lazaridis 2016, "Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East".

This sample: French24061 Loire-Atlantique France Latitude/Longitude: 47.34281747, -1.66718251

moesan
06-11-2019, 09:36 PM
That Pays Nantais sample is an academic sample from an official study.

But there is only one from this region in the whole dataset (30 samples from all over Northern France). I have more samples from Brittany and from Aquitaine - I can tell you that other Brittany samples are similar to this Pays Nantais and other Aquitaine samples are similar to this Charente-Maritime.

I chose those two because they represent the southernmost and northernmost examples of their respective clusters (Armorican/Breton and Aquitanian).

There is a genetically intermediate zone too (most of Pays de la Loire and Poitou-Charentes are intermediate, West-Central).



Here are their K15 results:

Population
North_Sea 35.29 Pct
Atlantic 26.65 Pct
Baltic 9.89 Pct
Eastern_Euro 7.08 Pct
West_Med 10.07 Pct
West_Asian 3.47 Pct
East_Med 5.65 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian 0.16 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.48 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.74 Pct
Sub-Saharan 0.53 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 4.19
(...)

Population
North_Sea 19.07 Pct
Atlantic 45.26 Pct
Baltic 5.95 Pct
Eastern_Euro 1.10 Pct
West_Med 22.76 Pct
West_Asian -
East_Med 3.20 Pct
Red_Sea 1.92 Pct
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.37 Pct
Oceanian 0.15 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.24 Pct

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French_Basque 3.64
(...)

Charentes-Maritimes were speaking a Poitevin dialect of West-France, with specificities - but it is believed they spoke before dialects closer to Occitanie ones - that said:
1- Poitou has been part of Great Aquitaine in Middle-Ages times.
2- Southern and Eastern Poitou phenotipically presented more mesocephalic less brachycephalic people than even North Gascon people, and in their mix showed a stronger 'mediter' (roughly said) input.
3- Brachycephally augmented quickly during IA in Western France, surely based on Jura or Alps pops moves of Celticized pops under some Celts tribes pression; here the concerned Poitevins seem having resisted to this push more than neighbouring regions.
4- Spite lacking some dialectal innovations common to peri-Basque regions and Gascogne, the southern Poitevin dialect show a trend towards spiration of French /sh/ -> a sound between /sh/ and /kh/ + of /zh/ -> /h/, shortly said a trend close to the evolution occurred in North-Castile/Basque country - without contacts! But I think some articulatory habits can survive a long time among populations.
Have we here a long term survivance of common genetic heritage (even if not 100%?)