PDA

View Full Version : DF27/Z195/DF17 IN IBERIA AND WESTERN EUROPE



jaumemiquel
06-18-2019, 12:43 PM
The purpose of this thread is to pinpoint the origin of this haplogroup DF27/Z195/DF17. Its dispersal throughout western Europe with a high dense coincidence in NE Spain and basque country sheds light as a possible migration terminal locations, but not origin(?). Welcome, Bienvenidos, Benvenuti, endietorri, Bienvenue, benvinguts, Céad míle fáilte, Willkommen

razyn
06-18-2019, 04:10 PM
This topic isn't really "General," and has been addressed on numerous existing threads. The most specific (but not the most recently updated) would be here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand

In recent weeks DF27 was included in a broader discussion that almost certainly will be revived when the referenced study becomes available: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15377-Cassidy-s-Thesis-Implications-for-L21-DF27-etc&p=574724&viewfull=1#post574724

According to this lengthy and informative post by Heber, the Cassidy dissertation is embargoed until May 2020: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15377-Cassidy-s-Thesis-Implications-for-L21-DF27-etc&p=497168&viewfull=1#post497168

I think you are aware of the first two suggestions, certainly of the second one -- but not everybody who might see your new thread would have any reason to be. So I just mention them, and suggest that the General category isn't the place for such a DF27-specific investigation.

jaumemiquel
06-18-2019, 07:13 PM
This topic isn't really "General," and has been addressed on numerous existing threads. The most specific (but not the most recently updated) would be here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand

In recent weeks DF27 was included in a broader discussion that almost certainly will be revived when the referenced study becomes available: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15377-Cassidy-s-Thesis-Implications-for-L21-DF27-etc&p=574724&viewfull=1#post574724

According to this lengthy and informative post by Heber, the Cassidy dissertation is embargoed until May 2020: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15377-Cassidy-s-Thesis-Implications-for-L21-DF27-etc&p=497168&viewfull=1#post497168

I think you are aware of the first two suggestions, certainly of the second one -- but not everybody who might see your new thread would have any reason to be. So I just mention them, and suggest that the General category isn't the place for such a DF27-specific investigation.


Thank You Razin, The purpose of my thread is to invite more feedback from the iberian (Spain and Portugal) side of the coin as i discern a bit of rejection (in general) and bias to the idea that perhaps DF27 may have been iberian in origin or insitu. All the threads i read of people who have DF27/Z195 noth of parallel 45 in Europe appear to be in awe or denial that their ancestor may have something to to with SPAIN (that county south of the Pyrenees mountains)...ohhhh there i said it. I hear comments such as "how come i have iberian in my dna?" or " df27 cannot be Iberian"...so the post stays where it is!

Webb
06-18-2019, 07:46 PM
Thank You Razin, The purpose of my thread is to invite more feedback from the iberian (Spain and Portugal) side of the coin as i discern a bit of rejection (in general) and bias to the idea that perhaps DF27 may have been iberian in origin or insitu. All the threads i read of people who have DF27/Z195 noth of parallel 45 in Europe appear to be in awe or denial that their ancestor may have something to to with SPAIN (that county south of the Pyrenees mountains)...ohhhh there i said it. I hear comments such as "how come i have iberian in my dna?" or " df27 cannot be Iberian"...so the post stays where it is!

It is about geography and Ydna relationships, really. DF27, U152, and DF99 share a parent. This parent shares a parent with L21 and a few other smaller clades. P312 shares a parent with U106. This parent shares a parent with Z2103/Z2105. R1b shares a lineage with R1a. Their parent, R shares a parent with Q, which is P1. This whole time we are moving gradually east, as we go further back towards the root of the tree. The oldest R was found in Siberia. Q is the main lineage among Native Americans. In Ancient Dna we don't see P312 in Iberia the Bronze Age. The oldest DF27 found was in Germany. The oldest U152 was also found in Germany. I think some DF27 entered Iberia pretty early. Maybe around the same time as the Sicily samples that were Z195, around 2300BCE, maybe 2400BCE for Iberia, but that is off memory. But based on how far and wide DF27 is found today, not all of DF27 went into Iberia. I can tell you that outside of Iberia, DF27 is densest in Southern France, in modern populations. According to one study, that I have a spreadsheet for P312(xL21xU152) was found at the following:

Bouches du Rhone (at mouth): 32.4%
Var (coastal, E of Rhone): 35.3%
Vaucluse (upstream Rhone): 29.5%
Alpes de Haute Provence: 29%

jaumemiquel
06-18-2019, 10:25 PM
It is about geography and Ydna relationships, really. DF27, U152, and DF99 share a parent. This parent shares a parent with L21 and a few other smaller clades. P312 shares a parent with U106. This parent shares a parent with Z2103/Z2105. R1b shares a lineage with R1a. Their parent, R shares a parent with Q, which is P1. This whole time we are moving gradually east, as we go further back towards the root of the tree. The oldest R was found in Siberia. Q is the main lineage among Native Americans. In Ancient Dna we don't see P312 in Iberia the Bronze Age. The oldest DF27 found was in Germany. The oldest U152 was also found in Germany. I think some DF27 entered Iberia pretty early. Maybe around the same time as the Sicily samples that were Z195, around 2300BCE, maybe 2400BCE for Iberia, but that is off memory. But based on how far and wide DF27 is found today, not all of DF27 went into Iberia. I can tell you that outside of Iberia, DF27 is densest in Southern France, in modern populations. According to one study, that I have a spreadsheet for P312(xL21xU152) was found at the following:

Bouches du Rhone (at mouth): 32.4%
Var (coastal, E of Rhone): 35.3%
Vaucluse (upstream Rhone): 29.5%
Alpes de Haute Provence: 29%

Thanks a lot Webb. So those areas are along the French Mediterranean side...is there any SNP's and haplogroups known for the West Atlantic side of France (ancient Aquitaine)? I've heard that Aquitainian is the parent of basque languages. any relations amongst basques from Spain and Pyrénées-Atlantiques peoples?

BalkanKiwi
06-18-2019, 11:31 PM
I've shifted this to a more appropriate forum section.

jaumemiquel
06-19-2019, 01:20 AM
I've shifted this to a more appropriate forum section.

please elaborate...

BalkanKiwi
06-19-2019, 01:46 AM
please elaborate...

Your question is related to DF27. I've moved your thread to the DF27 section of the forum where those who discuss this regularly will be able to see it, and reply appropriately.

Webb
06-19-2019, 02:00 AM
please elaborate...

It’s the rules. Razyn suggested moving to you because it is the rules. It’s not an infraction or anything. Threads should be started in the appropriate category. A thread about DF27 should probably be in the DF27 subcategory. The administrators move threads to different subcategories, periodically, if they think that is where the thread should be. Razyn, my favorite sun dried grape, is very knowledgeable about DF27. He, and a few more of us were testing before there was a DF27 to link SRY2627, DF17, Z209, and M153 together. We were pretty lucky because we were all under Z195/Z196. When they finally released DF27 for stand alone testing, many people were stuck at DF27 for a very long time. These were mainly the guys who are ZZ12, which is the slightly larger brother of Z195/Z196. But because M153 and SRY2627 were quickly labeled the Basque/Iberian markers, that is still what people assume today. As you may know, DF27 is now the second largest P312 super clade, using modern tester’s numbers in the various P312 subclade projects. From time to time someone joins the forum here and jumps right in with the DF27 originating in Iberia and it starts some heated exchange. Not because people don’t like Iberia, but because of the evidence. The evidence I mentioned above about geography and relationships. P312 is often referred to as the Bell Beaker people. This is sort of causes confusion, because of the pots. The whole beaker package is different than just a pot. It’s becoming more evident that P312 is most likely the vector for the start of the Italic/Celtic language tree. The relationship between P312 and it’s brother, U106, genetically mirrors the relationship between Italic/Celtic and Germanic. It’s probably a little messier than my simplistic explanation, but it is efficient. As more evidence mounts with aDna, it is looking like we need to start looking east for the birthplace of P312. Some people think the Eurasian Steppes. Some around the mouth of the Danube. I tend to favor the Hungary area. Who knows. But I don’t think DF27 was born in Iberia. I do think some DF27 men arrived early and were successful. Followed by more subsequent waves of DF27 men through the Bronze Age and Iron Age. A lot depends on getting more evidence from France and Central Europe.

razyn
06-19-2019, 06:20 PM
The purpose of my thread is to invite more feedback from the iberian (Spain and Portugal) side of the coin as i discern a bit of rejection (in general) and bias to the idea that perhaps DF27 may have been iberian in origin or insitu.

This isn't a very new purpose, or unique to you. I'll paste in a partial quotation (of myself, 2 1/2 years ago) linking to one of the threads on which we got fairly specific -- although this conversation happened not to involve DF17 or its subclades. It's part of the "long" (as genetic genealogy goes) history we've had of discussing Basques, starting on the now defunct DNA-Forums and (to a lesser degree) on Eupedia. I believe the Basques are at least mentioned on 26 of this (Anthrogenica) DF27 subforum's threads.


... in 2011, the M153 "Basque Cluster" was directly below P312; and all P312* people from the Deep Clade test of that vintage (myself included) were tested for M153. So YBrowse shows, for M153, 3842 tested and 33 derived... FTDNA (for instance) has learned not to sell that test. But many people have not learned how young M153 is, or how recently the Basques became a DF27+ majority population.

The following post of mine isn't about genetics, but is otherwise potentially of Basque interest -- so I'll just link it here, where it might get a bit more play than where I had to post it earlier today, under "The Arts." https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17386-NEA-National-Heritage-Fellowships

ADW_1981
06-20-2019, 01:41 AM
The purpose of this thread is to pinpoint the origin of this haplogroup DF27/Z195/DF17. Its dispersal throughout western Europe with a high dense coincidence in NE Spain and basque country sheds light as a possible migration terminal locations, but not origin(?). Welcome, Bienvenidos, Benvenuti, endietorri, Bienvenue, benvinguts, Céad míle fáilte, Willkommen

You're not really looking at the whole picture though. You should probably look at Z272 which you didn't note here, since it's a common parent to both DF17 and Z209, the latter of which you didn't mention at all.

Tomenable
06-20-2019, 04:35 AM
Why aren't 1000 Genomes samples with DF27 included in FTDNA Projects?

jaumemiquel
06-20-2019, 01:14 PM
It’s the rules. Razyn suggested moving to you because it is the rules. It’s not an infraction or anything. Threads should be started in the appropriate category. A thread about DF27 should probably be in the DF27 subcategory. The administrators move threads to different subcategories, periodically, if they think that is where the thread should be. Razyn, my favorite sun dried grape, is very knowledgeable about DF27. He, and a few more of us were testing before there was a DF27 to link SRY2627, DF17, Z209, and M153 together. We were pretty lucky because we were all under Z195/Z196. When they finally released DF27 for stand alone testing, many people were stuck at DF27 for a very long time. These were mainly the guys who are ZZ12, which is the slightly larger brother of Z195/Z196. But because M153 and SRY2627 were quickly labeled the Basque/Iberian markers, that is still what people assume today. As you may know, DF27 is now the second largest P312 super clade, using modern tester’s numbers in the various P312 subclade projects. From time to time someone joins the forum here and jumps right in with the DF27 originating in Iberia and it starts some heated exchange. Not because people don’t like Iberia, but because of the evidence. The evidence I mentioned above about geography and relationships. P312 is often referred to as the Bell Beaker people. This is sort of causes confusion, because of the pots. The whole beaker package is different than just a pot. It’s becoming more evident that P312 is most likely the vector for the start of the Italic/Celtic language tree. The relationship between P312 and it’s brother, U106, genetically mirrors the relationship between Italic/Celtic and Germanic. It’s probably a little messier than my simplistic explanation, but it is efficient. As more evidence mounts with aDna, it is looking like we need to start looking east for the birthplace of P312. Some people think the Eurasian Steppes. Some around the mouth of the Danube. I tend to favor the Hungary area. Who knows. But I don’t think DF27 was born in Iberia. I do think some DF27 men arrived early and were successful. Followed by more subsequent waves of DF27 men through the Bronze Age and Iron Age. A lot depends on getting more evidence from France and Central Europe.

Thanks so much for your input Webb...i'm ok with the thread being shifted...Now back to the concern about Iberia not being liked or being liked, that's not my point, my point is that 40% of Iberia is M269/P312/Df27 which equates to about 12 million souls...now that's twice the population of Ireland in its totality, yet Spain is left out on any celtic studies debates and the celticity is strictly appropriated by the British and a few others. That's my point...As far as the East to WEst migration patterns, yes it appears (but not yet proven) that the black sea may have been the origins of these mutations yet it is mathematically in contradiction to a diffusion/dispersion model as the focal point is on the west atlantic...thanks

razyn
06-20-2019, 05:53 PM
yet it is mathematically in contradiction to a diffusion/dispersion model as the focal point is on the west atlantic...thanks

It's the pooling point, not the "focal" point. Nobody here questions where the 21st century (and long before that) DF27 "hot spot" was, when colonization of the Americas by modern Europeans began. Anglo-America has way more people of Irish than Spanish/Portuguese/Basque recent ancestry; and that's who buys most of the consumer DNA kits. ("The Isles," especially the Emerald one, are also over-represented by contrast with anyplace else in Continental Europe. Not just Iberia, or "south of the Pyrenees.") It will iron itself out -- it just takes more time, and more money, than has yet been spent to resolve such queries.

Webb
06-20-2019, 06:20 PM
I do agree with jaumemiquel, as to the fact that if one considers L21 and U152 Celtic, then one has to also consider DF27 Celtic as well. On the other hand, if one considers L21 Celtic but U152 as other, thereby assuming DF27 is other, I am ok with that as well. But we know there were Celts in Iberia and the rate of L21 and U152 in Iberia is so low, that I think you could assume the Celtic element and Pre-Celtic element in Iberia can both be attributed to DF27.

GoldenHind
06-20-2019, 06:21 PM
Why aren't 1000 Genomes samples with DF27 included in FTDNA Projects?

You have to be a FTDNA customer to join a FTDNA Project, and obviously 1KG samples don't qualify. However they are included in the Big Tree.

razyn
06-20-2019, 07:35 PM
My brother had himself tested, early, for the Genographic Project (processed in the FTDNA lab); but he had lost his kit number by the time I got interested, and those tests were anonymized to the point that neither NatGeo nor FTDNA could tell him what it was. I had one YDNA "match" in the Genographic project, nominally "from England." Had to pay for FTDNA testing of my brother (from Kentucky) to prove he was it. To our mutual relief, we at least were proven to be genetically brothers.

MitchellSince1893
06-20-2019, 08:40 PM
Is “Celtic” in this discussion referring to a culture or a language?

There’s roughly a 1000 year gap between the end of Bell Beaker Culture and the earliest Celtic culture. Plenty of time for some BB descendants to be outside of the future Celtic sphere.

Some of the BB descendants are L21 men in Cornwall, Ireland, Wales, and Scotland who now mostly speak a Germanic Language, but would be considered mostly of Celtic cultural origin.

U152 is even more convoluted. Some u152 men in Britain may have arrived with Bell Beaker and their descendants also became part of insular Celtic culture. Later additional continental (I.e. Hallstatt & LaTene) u152 celts arrived in Britain. Later still Germanic U152 men arrived in Britain with Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Danes, Dutch, Flemings. These later arrivals had there origin in Bell Beaker/Single Grave Culture, but were outside of both the insular and continental Celtic cultural spheres and did not speak a Celtic language.

I wouldn’t be surprised if DF27 men also were both inside and outside of the Celtic cultural spheres even though they have origins in BB/SGC

jaumemiquel
06-20-2019, 09:45 PM
Is “Celtic” in this discussion referring to a culture or a language?



There’s roughly a 1000 year gap between the end of Bell Beaker Culture and the earliest Celtic culture. Plenty of time for some BB descendants to be outside of the future Celtic sphere.

Some of the BB descendants are L21 men in Cornwall, Ireland, Wales, and Scotland who now mostly speak a Germanic Language today but would be considered mostly of Celtic cultural origin.

U152 is even more convoluted. Some u152 men in Britain may have arrived with Bell Beaker and their descendants also became part of insular Celtic culture. Later additional continental u152 celts arrived in Britain. Later still Germanic U152 men arrived in Britain with Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Danes, Dutch, Flemings. These later arrivals had there origin in Bell Beaker/Single Grave Culture, but were outside of both the insular and continental Celtic cultural spheres and did not speak a Celtic language.

I wouldn’t be surprised if DF27 also was both inside and outside of the Celtic cultural spheres even though they has origins in BB/SGC

Both. Spain had the Tartessos language which now appears to be the oldest remnant of any celtic languages...yeap, right there on the south tip of the peninsula overlooking the pillars of Hercules...

Dewsloth
06-20-2019, 10:12 PM
Is “Celtic” in this discussion referring to a culture or a language?

There’s roughly a 1000 year gap between the end of Bell Beaker Culture and the earliest Celtic culture. Plenty of time for some BB descendants to be outside of the future Celtic sphere.

Some of the BB descendants are L21 men in Cornwall, Ireland, Wales, and Scotland who now mostly speak a Germanic Language today but would be considered mostly of Celtic cultural origin.

U152 is even more convoluted. Some u152 men in Britain may have arrived with Bell Beaker and their descendants also became part of insular Celtic culture. Later additional continental u152 celts arrived in Britain. Later still Germanic U152 men arrived in Britain with Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Danes, Dutch, Flemings. These later arrivals had there origin in Bell Beaker/Single Grave Culture, but were outside of both the insular and continental Celtic cultural spheres and did not speak a Celtic language.

I wouldn’t be surprised if DF27 also was both inside and outside of the Celtic cultural spheres even though they has origins in BB/SGC

Another example: The P312 subclade of DF19 (and now Z4161) looks Germanic (and its modern distribution is decidedly so), but its earliest (only) ancient burial find to date is in ~200AD Roman York and the person autosomally looks close to Welsh, but isotopically could have had continential or British contacts.
But he doesn't look especially Germanic. All sorts of mysteries to uncover between P312's formation and modern times.

razyn
06-20-2019, 10:18 PM
Spain had the Tartessos language which now appears to be the oldest remnant of any celtic languages...

And we know that because of all those cool Tartessian inscriptions on rocks, using the Phoenician alphabet. (See Celtic from the West, pp. 210 ff.) Tip o' the hat to haplogroup J, and that writing crowd.

jaumemiquel
06-20-2019, 11:31 PM
And we know that because of all those cool Tartessian inscriptions on rocks, using the Phoenician alphabet. (See Celtic from the West, pp. 210 ff.) Tip o' the hat to haplogroup J, and that writing crowd.

Wrong. The Phoenicians traded with the Tartessians but not the same peoples. Sure, Tartessians borrowed their alphabet letters to write but was not phoenician. Just like You Razin, using the latin alphabet writing in good o' English, right?

GoldenHind
06-21-2019, 12:09 AM
Is “Celtic” in this discussion referring to a culture or a language?

There’s roughly a 1000 year gap between the end of Bell Beaker Culture and the earliest Celtic culture. Plenty of time for some BB descendants to be outside of the future Celtic sphere.

Some of the BB descendants are L21 men in Cornwall, Ireland, Wales, and Scotland who now mostly speak a Germanic Language, but would be considered mostly of Celtic cultural origin.

U152 is even more convoluted. Some u152 men in Britain may have arrived with Bell Beaker and their descendants also became part of insular Celtic culture. Later additional continental (I.e. Hallstatt & LaTene) u152 celts arrived in Britain. Later still Germanic U152 men arrived in Britain with Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Danes, Dutch, Flemings. These later arrivals had there origin in Bell Beaker/Single Grave Culture, but were outside of both the insular and continental Celtic cultural spheres and did not speak a Celtic language.

I wouldn’t be surprised if DF27 men also were both inside and outside of the Celtic cultural spheres even though they have origins in BB/SGC

I think one should keep in mind that not all P312 subclades have been found among Bell Beaker aDNA samples. I believe to date only L21, DF27 and U152 have been so identified. It may well eventually be established that all of P312 was part of Bell Beaker, but to date that is an assumption lacking proof.

Also I concur that even if all of P312 was part of the Beakers, that doesn't establish that all of P312 eventually became Celtic or spoke a Celtic language, though that belief has long been promoted by fans of the Celtic world. For example I think it is very difficult to reconcile the known modern distribution of P312 subclade L238, which is overwhelmingly found in Scandinavia, with a Celtic origin.

I also suspect that some portion of even those P312 subclades which appear to have strong associations with the Celts may have been incorporated into the Germanic world at a very early date.

Webb
06-21-2019, 12:25 AM
I think one should keep in mind that not all P312 subclades have been found among Bell Beaker aDNA samples. I believe to date only L21, DF27 and U152 have been so identified. It may well eventually be established that all of P312 was part of Bell Beaker, but to date that is an assumption lacking proof.

Also I concur that even if all of P312 was part of the Beakers, that doesn't establish that all of P312 eventually became Celtic or spoke a Celtic language, though that belief has long been promoted by fans of the Celtic world. For example I think it is very difficult to reconcile the known modern distribution of P312 subclade L238, which is overwhelmingly found in Scandinavia, with a Celtic origin.

Some things to take into consideration. Davidsky’s steppe charts show his Norwegian samples have the highest steppe component. L238, DF99, and DF19 seem to be more commonly found closer to the North Sea. The oldest DF27 and, I believe, the oldest U152 found so far was deep in the interior of Germany. I have had a hunch for a bit that maybe P312 ground zero was closer to this area. But as you say, no Bell Beaker remains yet that are L238, DF99, or DF19, unless our guys adopted the Beaker package after the formation of the various clades underneath P312.

rms2
06-21-2019, 12:33 AM
Some things to take into consideration. Davidsky’s steppe charts show his Norwegian samples have the highest steppe component . . .

I believe that is for modern peoples, not ancient ones.

I2417, one of the Boscombe Bowmen, who was R1b-L21, had as much steppe dna as just about any Corded Ware man, which was a lot.

I2417 (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/search?q=I2417)

MitchellSince1893
06-21-2019, 02:56 AM
My own branch U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222 (TMRCA 1800BC) is post Bell Beaker and presently found all over Western and Northern Europe. I.e. Sweden, Finland, Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, Scotland, England, Ireland, Hungary, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France. So what single post Beaker cultural explains this geographic distribution? None I’m aware of.
I think we should keep in mind that, try as we may, it’s hard to make P312 subclades (even post Beaker ones) neatly/wholly fit into a particular Iron Age culture. E.g Celts, Italic, Germanic Iberian etc. By 1000BC many subclades were spread out over large areas of Northern and Western Europe...ending up in multiple cultures.

Tomenable
06-21-2019, 03:33 AM
My father's BigY sample has 56 Novel SNPs* at YFull and 24 Private SNPs (Unnamed Variants) at FTDNA.

I think it means my lineage is not closely related to West European lineages under the same subclade.

=====

*But 30 of them are under "One reading!" category, 14 "Best quality", 10 "Acceptable", 2 "Ambiguous".

Edit:


Is “Celtic” in this discussion referring to a culture or a language?

There’s roughly a 1000 year gap between the end of Bell Beaker Culture and the earliest Celtic culture. Plenty of time for some BB descendants to be outside of the future Celtic sphere.

Unless Bell Beaker itself was Proto-Italo-Celtic.

Proto-Italo-Celtic language has been reconstructed by linguists, while Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic has never been reconstructed by linguusts - most likely because Proto-Germanic evolved from different cultures (I suspect Battle Axe Culture).

Proto-Italo-Celtic was ancestral to Italic and Celtic, but possibly also to some other - long extinct by now - IE languages.

Tomenable
06-21-2019, 03:49 AM
You have to be a FTDNA customer to join a FTDNA Project, and obviously 1KG samples don't qualify. However they are included in the Big Tree.

I asked because there is a 1000 Genomes Spanish sample which has a similar subclade to me. There is also one Mexican at FTDNA who has my subclade but for some reason he hasn't transferred his BigY data to YFull yet. I think this Mexican is my closest SNP match (although BigY results say that I have no matches, so even this guy is not close enough to show up as a BigY match). As for this 1000 Genomes sample, using "Check SNPs" option at YFull, I'm negative for SNPs this sample is positive for:

M225 - negative
M7948 - negative
F2106 - negative
F1225 - negative
S14003 - negative
Z5297 - negative

My Y-STR matches (at 37 markers, no matches at 67 and 111) are all British, but they're all listed as R1b-M269. No idea what is their subclade.

=====

BTW, my 23andMe autosomal ancestry results came in several days ago, and I got no links to:

Iberian - 0.0%
British and Irish - 0.0%

^^^
Of course my father might score some % in these categories if I test him with 23andMe as well.

The rest of my results:

https://i.imgur.com/jkMf1YL.png
^^^
I don't think they're accurate on regional level (they predicted my top 5 regions in Poland all wrong, compared to my paper trail), but:

- North Rhine-Westphalia and Bavaria is what I got for Germany
- Hauts-de-France and Grand Est is what I got for France
- they could not identify countries/regions for "Greek and Balkan"

https://i.imgur.com/U9tjQvq.png

https://i.imgur.com/9CArBfW.png
^^^
The link to Germanic areas such as North Rhine-Westphalia etc. is probably from my mother's side (as her maiden name is of Germanic origin).

Bavaria is where "Poznan Bambers" came from, so maybe this genetic signature is quite widespread in the local population by now (assuming that these 23andMe regions are even remotely accurate - because as I said, for Poland they got my regions wrong, and for other countries I cannot tell if they are wrong or correct):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bambrzy

=====

There are probably people with my subclade in Lithuania and Belarus, but in my 23andMe I didn't score these countries (I only got Poland, Russia and Ukraine under East Euro category). I guess the migration was from Poland to Lithuania and Belarus (makes sense as these Lithuanians have Polish-sounding surnames).

Under East Euro category I got:

Poland - Highly Likely Match
Russia - Possible Match
Ukraine - Possible Match (strongest match to Lvov)

https://i.imgur.com/1Uns2Ou.png

https://i.imgur.com/3x8WEkT.png
How far back does 23andMe go? Just 200 years or closer to 500 years?

I mainly ordered it to see if they give me any British/Irish/Iberian, but no. Maybe in the future I will check what my father scores in their test.

Hilerno
06-21-2019, 12:03 PM
The purpose of this thread is to pinpoint the origin of this haplogroup DF27/Z195/DF17. Its dispersal throughout western Europe with a high dense coincidence in NE Spain and basque country sheds light as a possible migration terminal locations, but not origin(?). Welcome, Bienvenidos, Benvenuti, endietorri, Bienvenue, benvinguts, Céad míle fáilte, Willkommen

If the purpose of this thread is to find out the origin of Df27-Z195, then the only thing you have to do is check Olalde's last job and you can verify that there are at least 7 samples of this subclade of Df27 in Iberia both in the Bronze Age as in the Iron Age. There are no more documented samples in all European prehistory then obviously the origin is absolutely berian. The same goes for the other branch of Df27- Haplogroup- ZZ12, because all the samples found so far have been in Spain (the oldest one in 1,900 BC) -

Webb
06-21-2019, 12:35 PM
I believe that is for modern peoples, not ancient ones.

I2417, one of the Boscombe Bowmen, who was R1b-L21, had as much steppe dna as just about any Corded Ware man, which was a lot.

I2417 (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/search?q=I2417)

Yes, I know. So if The Norwegian samples have the most steppe, today, it means they are the least admixed. Why? To me it suggests that there were steppe men and women, allowing the steppe to not dilute as quickly. Versus having male steppe and local women.

Webb
06-21-2019, 12:37 PM
If the purpose of this thread is to find out the origin of Df27-Z195, then the only thing you have to do is check Olalde's last job and you can verify that there are at least 7 samples of this subclade of Df27 in Iberia both in the Bronze Age as in the Iron Age. There are no more documented samples in all European prehistory then obviously the origin is absolutely berian. The same goes for the other branch of Df27- Haplogroup- ZZ12, because all the samples found so far have been in Spain (the oldest one in 1,900 BC) -

The two Sicilian Bell Beaker found to be Z195 are dated to around 2300BCE to 2100BCE.

jaumemiquel
06-21-2019, 01:03 PM
The two Sicilian Bell Beaker found to be Z195 are dated to around 2300BCE to 2100BCE.

Webb, the oldest Z195 per Nature article is:
Z195 was apparently oldest in Catalonia (4580 ± 240 ya).
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

rms2
06-21-2019, 01:47 PM
I0806, a Kurgan Bell Beaker man whose skeleton was recovered near Quedlinburg, Germany, was R1b-DF27 and rc dated to 2431-2150 BC.

Besides him, there are a number of other excellent reasons to regard the idea that DF27 originated in Iberia as ridiculous. First off, there was no R1b-M269, and certainly no R1b-L23 or R1b-P312, in Iberia before Kurgan Bell Beaker arrived there around 2500 BC. There are plenty of ancient samples from Iberia that predate 2500 BC, and none of them is R1b-P312 or even R1b-M269.

Secondly, DF27 and U152 are brother clades under ZZ11. It isn't likely either of them originated far from the other, and there is certainly no indication that either originated anywhere near Iberia.

jaumemiquel
06-21-2019, 02:07 PM
I0806, a Kurgan Bell Beaker man whose skeleton was recovered near Quedlinburg, Germany, was R1b-DF27 and rc dated to 2431-2150 BC.

Besides him, there are a number of other excellent reasons to regard the idea that DF27 originated in Iberia as ridiculous. First off, there was no R1b-M269, and certainly no R1b-L23 or R1b-P312, in Iberia before Kurgan Bell Beaker arrived there around 2500 BC. There are plenty of ancient samples from Iberia that predate 2500 BC, and none of them is R1b-P312 or even R1b-M269.

Secondly, DF27 and U152 are brother clades under ZZ11. It isn't likely either of them originated far from the other, and there is certainly no indication that either originated anywhere near Iberia.

Z195 is right under DF27, and as indicated above its age is 4580 ± 240 ya, which means it may be as old as 4820 ya or 2800 BC...that's way before our Quelinburg deutscher Mann...how is that explained?

rms2
06-21-2019, 02:14 PM
Z195 is right under DF27, and as indicated above its age is 4580 ± 240 ya, which means it may be as old as 4820 ya or 2800 BC...that's way before our Quelinburg deutscher Mann...how is that explained?

That's from an old paper based on modern samples, and that date is a guesstimate based on those modern samples. It's not a date based on any actual ancient human skeleton. Ancient dna research has rendered that paper obsolete, even ridiculous. Periodically it is pulled out, dusted off, and presented as evidence by guys who really want not only DF27 but P312 and perhaps even M269 to be aboriginal in Iberia.

Didn't happen.

Tomenable
06-21-2019, 02:23 PM
Anyone checked this tool?: http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

Hilerno
06-21-2019, 02:35 PM
The two Sicilian Bell Beaker found to be Z195 are dated to around 2300BCE to 2100BCE.

If you have read the paper in Sicily, you will see that those cases of Df27 are Iberian Bbs because the pottery found in the deposits is of the Ciempozuelos style, which as you know is exclusive to Iberia. the founder effect of Df27 and most of its branches in Iberia between the final Chalcolithic and most of the Bronze Age is obvious

Hilerno
06-21-2019, 02:41 PM
Webb, the oldest Z195 per Nature article is:
Z195 was apparently oldest in Catalonia (4580 ± 240 ya).
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

Yes, Catalonia and the entire Iberian Mediterranean coast, where there is also an evident genetic continuity from the Chalcolithic to the historical Iberian peoples of the Iron Age (Indiketes, Ilerkavones, Edetanos ...) all of them absolutely Df27, in its two branches , both Z195 and ZZ12. Iberians are direct descendants of Iberian Bbs by maternal and paternal line

Dewsloth
06-21-2019, 02:47 PM
Anyone checked this tool?: http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

It's fun. If you put in DF13, zoom to Europe view and click the "show descendants" box, you can see the Illuminati at work. ;)

rms2
06-21-2019, 02:59 PM
Yes, Catalonia and the entire Iberian Mediterranean coast, where there is also an evident genetic continuity from the Chalcolithic to the historical Iberian peoples of the Iron Age (Indiketes, Ilerkavones, Edetanos ...) all of them absolutely Df27, in its two branches , both Z195 and ZZ12. Iberians are direct descendants of Iberian Bbs by maternal and paternal line

Keep in mind that there are two distinctly different kinds of "Iberian BBs". Early Iberian BB people were non-R1b-M269 and had no steppe dna. They tended to be short in stature, with gracile skeletons and long heads. They buried their dead in collective Neolithic tombs like other Neolithic farmers. Then, around 2500 BC, Kurgan Bell Beaker men arrived from the east bringing with them R1b-M269 (probably much of it already DF27) and steppe dna. They were tall for the period, with robust skeletons and a tendency to be round headed. They buried their important dead, especially males, in single graves with a suite of grave goods.

It is not at all likely that DF27 originated anywhere in Iberia, ethno-nationalist pride notwithstanding.

razyn
06-21-2019, 03:37 PM
There's also the salient point that jaumemiquel and Hilerno have, at the moment, 18 Anthrogenica posts among them, as a group. They are pretty late to this discussion, unless one or both were just a banned poster returning under a new ID. In any case, the OP has raised a question; and the people responding to it rationally have, as a group, more like 20,000 posts here. rms2 accounts for more than half of them, but none of us are total newbs. We have read the papers, including Olalde's latest; we understand what they are saying, and (importantly) what they are not saying. In a few cases, also what they have said (since 2012, when anyone Iberian started saying anything at all about the newly discovered DF27) that's wildly erroneous.

If you don't know what you are talking about it would be good to talk less, and listen more.

jaumemiquel
06-21-2019, 08:40 PM
There's also the salient point that jaumemiquel and Hilerno have, at the moment, 18 Anthrogenica posts among them, as a group. They are pretty late to this discussion, unless one or both were just a banned poster returning under a new ID. In any case, the OP has raised a question; and the people responding to it rationally have, as a group, more like 20,000 posts here. rms2 accounts for more than half of them, but none of us are total newbs. We have read the papers, including Olalde's latest; we understand what they are saying, and (importantly) what they are not saying. In a few cases, also what they have said (since 2012, when anyone Iberian started saying anything at all about the newly discovered DF27) that's wildly erroneous.

If you don't know what you are talking about it would be good to talk less, and listen more.

First, I’m not returning with new ID nor have I been banned from Anywhere. The name you see is my real name I don’t hide my identity like some of you do.
Secondly, no one is debating that the bell beakers came across the Danube corridor from M269/L51/L23/p310/p312 etc. My thread is specifically regarding Z195 and DF 27 which are mutations that may have happened on the Iberian side but whether They shifted on the north of the pyrenees is besides the point. The fact is that 40% of the Iberian Peninsula do have df27 and Z195.

rms2
06-22-2019, 03:59 PM
First, I’m not returning with new ID nor have I been banned from Anywhere. The name you see is my real name I don’t hide my identity like some of you do.
Secondly, no one is debating that the bell beakers came across the Danube corridor from M269/L51/L23/p310/p312 etc. My thread is specifically regarding Z195 and DF 27 which are mutations that may have happened on the Iberian side but whether They shifted on the north of the pyrenees is besides the point. The fact is that 40% of the Iberian Peninsula do have df27 and Z195.

Fair enough, but for DF27 to have arisen in Iberia, its ZZ11 father would have had to come to Iberia first. The problem with that is that U152 is also a scion of ZZ11. I suppose it's possible for one ZZ11 guy to have fathered the first U152 man in eastern or central Europe while another ZZ11 man went to Iberia before fathering the first DF27 man, but that strikes me as unlikely.

It seems to me both DF27 and U152 arose in eastern or central Europe. However it happened, the DF27 tribes did very well in Iberia and came to dominate the place. Same thing happened in Britain and Ireland with L21.

Awhile back someone asked me about the relationship between L2 and L21, so I made this graphic to illustrate it. It's good for showing DF27's place, as well. It's not meant to include all of P312.

31104

jaumemiquel
06-22-2019, 04:22 PM
Fair enough, but for DF27 to have arisen in Iberia, its ZZ11 father would have had to come to Iberia first. The problem with that is that U152 is also a scion of ZZ11. I suppose it's possible for one ZZ11 guy to have fathered the first U152 man in eastern or central Europe while another ZZ11 man went to Iberia before fathering the first DF27 man, but that strikes me as unlikely.

It seems to me both DF27 and U152 arose in eastern or central Europe. However it happened, the DF27 tribes did very well in Iberia and came to dominate the place. Same thing happened in Britain and Ireland with L21.

Awhile back someone asked me about the relationship between L2 and L21, so I made this graphic to illustrate it. It's good for showing DF27's place, as well. It's not meant to include all of P312.

31104

OK, I think it could've been possible for a ZZ11 to have taken the italian coastline route which would explain the DF27 along the french Riviera coastline someone was mentioning...then entered Iberia via Balearic Islands into Catalonia or viceversa. Thanks

rms2
06-22-2019, 04:32 PM
OK, I think it could've been possible for a ZZ11 to have taken the italian coastline route which would explain the DF27 along the french Riviera coastline someone was mentioning...then entered Iberia via Balearic Islands into Catalonia or viceversa. Thanks

While that's possible and not totally unreasonable, the finding of DF27 Beaker man I0806 (buried with a Corded Ware axe interestingly enough) in Quedlinburg (https://goo.gl/maps/TF1NoTpU9GD1Jxiz5) in east central Germany, rc dated to 2431-2150 BC, renders it unlikely.

That one is an actual ancient BB skeleton with steppe dna.

jaumemiquel
06-22-2019, 05:07 PM
While that's possible and not totally unreasonable, the finding of DF27 Beaker man I0806 (buried with a Corded Ware axe interestingly enough) in Quedlinburg (https://goo.gl/maps/TF1NoTpU9GD1Jxiz5) in east central Germany, rc dated to 2431-2150 BC, renders it unlikely.

That one is an actual ancient BB skeleton with steppe dna.

There could've been multiple ZZ11 spreading all over Europe and the DF27 mutations happening in several locations at around the same time? cousins of cousins etc...

Shadogowah
06-22-2019, 11:00 PM
There could've been multiple ZZ11 spreading all over Europe and the DF27 mutations happening in several locations at around the same time? cousins of cousins etc...

You could say the same for all the other mutations that define parents, siblings and children and find yourself in a problem to try to explain why some haplogroups are much more common in some places and so rare in others. If the same successful mutations happen in different places simultaneously, you should see a much more homogeneous distribution, I think.

We don't know yet where Mr. DF27 came to this world first but of course we all have our own opinions because we give more weight to some pieces of evidence than others.

Some consider modern distribution almost irrelevant and they believe that the early DF27 were Bell Beakers with high Steppe ancestry.

Making a parallelism with more recent events, modern Iberians would be like Hispanic american "mestizos" regarding their Steppe admixture. In a similar way they belong to European lineages but their admixture won't be completely European while their Spanish and Portuguese siblings are 100% Europeans. They want to believe that the DF27 that show up beyond Iberia had nothing to do with Iberians but sharing those original Steppe rich BB as ancestors.

Some others like me do not discard the possibility of DF27 explosion in Iberia and their success being actually the consequence of intermingling and the DF27 lineages that popup in places like Scotland or Germany are actually connected to a reflux from Iberia at some point.

razyn
06-22-2019, 11:47 PM
There could've been multiple ZZ11 spreading all over Europe and the DF27 mutations happening in several locations at around the same time? cousins of cousins etc...

There could have been, in the sense that there could have been flying pigs, and Yetis roaming the planet. But other scenarios are much more probable.

There was one ZZ11 guy. One descendant of his had one DF27 mutation; and another descendant (arguably older -- but that is not proven by the absence of a DF27 cemetery cluster, comparable to all those U152>L2 corpses near Prague that have been discovered) had the one U152 mutation. These major mutations were coming along in fairly rapid succession, around the start of the "Bronze Age" (which can itself be wildly different in specific date, depending on where one was when bronze came upon the scene). Their many respective subclades developed over much longer scales of time and distance.

But recent linguistic models, e.g. Chang et al (2015), don't seem to contradict recent analysis of (autosomal) ancient DNA by Davidski/Generalissimo, both of which suggest movement of most IE language bearers from the Pontic-Caspian steppe into central-then-western Europe (progressively and in that direction) via the SGC, Single-Grave Culture -- a route evidently north of the Carpathians -- and diffusing at (or just before) the dawn of the Bronze Age, with their several respective haplogroups. And populations with similar steppe genetic backgrounds [predominantly L11, on the male side] subsequently differentiated into separate language families (that did not exist in the Bronze Age, such as "Celtic") -- in a manner suggested [don't take it very seriously, but the suggestion is not preposterous] by this recent graphic: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16234-Bell-Beaker-Archaeology-and-Ancient-DNA&p=550704&viewfull=1#post550704

And that, as one can see, has squat to do with the much later Glory that was Greece; Grandeur that was Rome; Levantine religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam -- or the Mediterranean, in general. Probably, not even with the Danube and the Iron Gates (although that route from the steppe still has some admirers, who aren't yet persuaded that Davidski got it all right).

It is evidence-based stuff like this that casts doubt on the "possible" (but highly unlikely) notion of a DF27 that
entered Iberia via Balearic Islands into Catalonia or viceversa.

Here's some more catching-up, background material for a person who has been on the forum for less than two weeks. I just tried to sum up a few things; so have Webb, rms2, Dewsloth and others posting here. In general, the much-read thread I'm about to cite (again) will guide you to more of the evidence you wish to ignore than otherwise. OTOH you may find, to your delight, things like Generalissimo calling me "crazy." (Clinically, that's not the case, but I am pretty old and cranky.) https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16234-Bell-Beaker-Archaeology-and-Ancient-DNA&p=544606&viewfull=1#post544606

rms2
06-23-2019, 02:55 AM
. . . They want to believe that the DF27 that show up beyond Iberia had nothing to do with Iberians but sharing those original Steppe rich BB as ancestors . . .


It doesn't matter what we want to believe. It's pretty plain that before about 2500 BC there was no R1b-M269 of any kind in Iberia and no steppe dna, and when the two do show up, they show up together, in the very same skeletons.

There are plenty of samples from ancient Iberia that predate the arrival of the Kurgan Bell Beaker men. As I said, none of them is R1b-M269 of any kind and none of them has steppe dna.

Those are facts.

rms2
06-23-2019, 03:12 AM
Please delete.

rms2
06-23-2019, 03:26 AM
There could've been multiple ZZ11 spreading all over Europe and the DF27 mutations happening in several locations at around the same time? cousins of cousins etc...

No. If there were multiple ZZ11 founders of multiple different original DF27 lines, one would see a variety of different SNPs between ZZ11 and DF27, and some at the ZZ11 level, on the different lines of DF27, and one doesn't. One or more of those SNPs would be the important SNP or SNPs, and DF27 would be redundant, signified by monikers like DF27.2, DF27.3, etc.

If there was even one extra ZZ11 guy between DF27 and the original ZZ11 founder, the odds increase for novel SNPs (at least one) that he carried that would show up in every DF27 man at the DF27 level, SNPs that would not show up in U152 men.

So, odds are the ZZ11 founder fathered both the DF27 founder and the U152 founder, and probably not far from one another.

Shadogowah
06-23-2019, 04:41 AM
It doesn't matter what we want to believe. It's pretty plain that before about 2500 BC there was no R1b-M269 of any kind in Iberia and no steppe dna, and when the two do show up, they show up together, in the very same skeletons.

There are plenty of samples from ancient Iberia that predate the arrival of the Kurgan Bell Beaker men. As I said, none of them is R1b-M269 of any kind and none of them has steppe dna.

Those are facts.

Your reply suggests I am contradicting the facts.

One connects facts with a narrative (otherwise they are just isolated pieces of data). I do not dispute that R1b-M269 nor the absence of them in Iberia prior to 2500 bC although they begin to show up around that time. To argue that you need to find someone else.

However the most plausible estimated date given for the appearance of DF27 is not far from 2500 bC. Another narrative that fits the facts would be that the first DF27 was born already in what today is France and the man of Quedlinburg particularly moved East and not West and is not a representative sample of what his kin was doing at the time, as we know they could travel quite far.

rms2
06-23-2019, 04:54 AM
Your reply suggests I am contradicting the facts.

One connects facts with a narrative (otherwise they are just isolated pieces of data). I do not dispute that R1b-M269 nor the absence of them in Iberia prior to 2500 bC although they begin to show up around that time. To argue that you need to find someone else.

This is what you said, and what I quoted and responded to:



. . . They want to believe that the DF27 that show up beyond Iberia had nothing to do with Iberians but sharing those original Steppe rich BB as ancestors . . .

That sounds like you contradicting the facts in order to make DF27 native to Iberia and somehow not "sharing those original Steppe rich BB as ancestors".

If that's not what you meant, one wonders why you wrote it.



However the most plausible estimated date given for the appearance of DF27 is not far from 2500 bC. Another narrative that fits the facts would be that the first DF27 was born already in what today is France and the man of Quedlinburg particularly moved East and not West and is not a representative sample of what his kin was doing at the time, as we know they could travel quite far.

Except that both DF27 and U152 are brother clades under ZZ11. Are you arguing that both were born in France?

You're moving east. I guess I should regard that as progress in the right direction.

Hilerno
06-23-2019, 08:03 AM
You could say the same for all the other mutations that define parents, siblings and children and find yourself in a problem to try to explain why some haplogroups are much more common in some places and so rare in others. If the same successful mutations happen in different places simultaneously, you should see a much more homogeneous distribution, I think.

We don't know yet where Mr. DF27 came to this world first but of course we all have our own opinions because we give more weight to some pieces of evidence than others.

Some consider modern distribution almost irrelevant and they believe that the early DF27 were Bell Beakers with high Steppe ancestry.

Making a parallelism with more recent events, modern Iberians would be like Hispanic american "mestizos" regarding their Steppe admixture. In a similar way they belong to European lineages but their admixture won't be completely European while their Spanish and Portuguese siblings are 100% Europeans. They want to believe that the DF27 that show up beyond Iberia had nothing to do with Iberians but sharing those original Steppe rich BB as ancestors.

Some others like me do not discard the possibility of DF27 explosion in Iberia and their success being actually the consequence of intermingling and the DF27 lineages that popup in places like Scotland or Germany are actually connected to a reflux from Iberia at some point.

The oldest cases of Z195, and therefore Df27, are the samples found in Sicily. Many people have been surprised because they never expect to find this haplogroup in the Western Mediterranean. However, since the samples belong to typically Iberian BBs, you already have Df27 in Iberia in 2,300 BC, along with other samples discovered by Olalde in his last two jobs. In contrast, Z195 has not yet been found in the rest of Europe. Regarding Spain you have 3 cases of Z195 in the Ancient Bronze Age (19th-18th-17th centuries BC) By order of antiquity-Can Roqueta (Sabadell), Lloma de Betxí (Paterna, Valencia) and Galls Carboners (Tarragona), with which the Mediterranean coast of Iberia seems clear that it has something to say in the origin of this subclade of Df27, of course more than Hungary or the Netherlands

Regarding Hispanic Americans who want to believe that the DF27 that show up beyond Iberia had nothing to do with Iberians but sharing those original Steppe rich BB as ancestors, they will never be able to deny having an Iberian origin because surely the majority are descendants of conquerors mixed with Indians. Probably their racial contradictions and the indigenous ideology makes them think that way

jaumemiquel
06-23-2019, 12:01 PM
This is what you said, and what I quoted and responded to:



That sounds like you contradicting the facts in order to make DF27 native to Iberia and somehow not "sharing those original Steppe rich BB as ancestors".

If that's not what you meant, one wonders why you wrote it.



Except that both DF27 and U152 are brother clades under ZZ11. Are you arguing that both were born in France?

You're moving east. I guess I should regard that as progress in the right direction.

rms2, it's amazing how you dislike the idea that perhaps DF27 may have been born in Iberia. You may even think DF27 spoke German and drank fricking Jagermeister...The fact is, so you and all others know, is that most Spaniards share the same P312 parent as most western Europeans, including you. P312 is our ancestor. I'm Z195/DF17

Webb
06-23-2019, 01:46 PM
rms2, it's amazing how you dislike the idea that perhaps DF27 may have been born in Iberia. You may even think DF27 spoke German and drank fricking Jagermeister...The fact is, so you and all others know, is that most Spaniards share the same P312 parent as most western Europeans, including you. P312 is our ancestor. I'm Z195/DF17

RMS2 is L21, Welsh American, most likely. He doesn’t believe L21 was born in the British Isles. His particular subclade of L21 May have been born there, but the first L21 man probably wasn’t. RMS2, actually thinks they were all born close to the Russian Steppes, I think. I like closer to the North Sea for ground zero of P312. I’ll tell you why. Horses can’t traverse thick woods, mountains, and large bodies of water very well. A frozen tundra in winter might be more suitable to horses in the summer when everything thaws and dries out. Anyway, DF27 is to Iberia what L21 is to the British Isles. Some DF27 subclades were probably born there and others that stayed wherever they stayed, were not.

razyn
06-23-2019, 02:42 PM
rms2, it's amazing how you dislike the idea that perhaps DF27 may have been born in Iberia.

"Disbelieve" does not mean "dislike." We don't believe that the evidence shows an Iberian origin for it. (Nor that it was in any meaningful sense "Celtic" when it was born.)

Speaking only for myself, I also don't place very deep credence in the SNP-counting technique for estimating the age of a haplogroup. It's better than nothing; but the alleged "mutation rate" is not a steady clock, has a wide range of error, and trusts statistics more than it should, given the small size of most samples. So the DF27 mutation is at least as old as the earliest corpse from which it has been sequenced; but whether it's a little older or a lot older has not been established.

Shadogowah
06-23-2019, 03:05 PM
This is what you said, and what I quoted and responded to:



That sounds like you contradicting the facts in order to make DF27 native to Iberia and somehow not "sharing those original Steppe rich BB as ancestors".

If that's not what you meant, one wonders why you wrote it.



Except that both DF27 and U152 are brother clades under ZZ11. Are you arguing that both were born in France?

You're moving east. I guess I should regard that as progress in the right direction.

Basically DF27 appears in today's France or even Belgium (and if they did further east, they crossed thousand of km as a small group and left nothing that survived). They arrive in small numbers to Southern France and enter Iberia. They become extremely successful there (and not in Germany or Poland) and grow in numbers exponentially while they intermix with native women. In a few centuries the most successful DF27 subclades have appeared and their offspring refluxes towards the British Isles and Center Europe.

It is just a narrative that does not contradict the facts and also fits better with modern distribution.

Shadogowah
06-23-2019, 03:21 PM
The oldest cases of Z195, and therefore Df27, are the samples found in Sicily. Many people have been surprised because they never expect to find this haplogroup in the Western Mediterranean. However, since the samples belong to typically Iberian BBs, you already have Df27 in Iberia in 2,300 BC, along with other samples discovered by Olalde in his last two jobs. In contrast, Z195 has not yet been found in the rest of Europe. Regarding Spain you have 3 cases of Z195 in the Ancient Bronze Age (19th-18th-17th centuries BC) By order of antiquity-Can Roqueta (Sabadell), Lloma de Betxí (Paterna, Valencia) and Galls Carboners (Tarragona), with which the Mediterranean coast of Iberia seems clear that it has something to say in the origin of this subclade of Df27, of course more than Hungary or the Netherlands

Regarding Hispanic Americans who want to believe that the DF27 that show up beyond Iberia had nothing to do with Iberians but sharing those original Steppe rich BB as ancestors, they will never be able to deny having an Iberian origin because surely the majority are descendants of conquerors mixed with Indians. Probably their racial contradictions and the indigenous ideology makes them think that way

I would be surprised not to find ancient Z195 outside Iberia because you can find it now everywhere in Europe, as far as the Baltic. But if that is true taking into account all the samples analysed so far, it would be a point to add to the "reflux from Iberia" hypothesis. The heat maps that present modern distribution of Z195 outside Iberia (with a couple of foci in Eastern England and the Netherlands) suggest (again) a penetration from the coast.

And connected to this, I like the idea of DF27 arriving to south east Iberia via sea and from there progressing North to conquest Humanejos and West to Zambujal. It always bring me to Los Millares and its fortifications.

These people must have been conquerors and they either rebuilt or conquer these ancient settlements.

And perhaps an archaeologist could debunk all this with a few assertions but that is just how I interpret the distorted data and contradicting information I read as a hobbyist.

jaumemiquel
06-23-2019, 04:11 PM
I would be surprised not to find ancient Z195 outside Iberia because you can find it now everywhere in Europe, as far as the Baltic. But if that is true taking into account all the samples analysed so far, it would be a point to add to the "reflux from Iberia" hypothesis. The heat maps that present modern distribution of Z195 outside Iberia (with a couple of foci in Eastern England and the Netherlands) suggest (again) a penetration from the coast.

And connected to this, I like the idea of DF27 arriving to south east Iberia via sea and from there progressing North to conquest Humanejos and West to Zambujal. It always bring me to Los Millares and its fortifications.

These people must have been conquerors and they either rebuilt or conquer these ancient settlements.

And perhaps an archaeologist could debunk all this with a few assertions but that is just how I interpret the distorted data and contradicting information I read as a hobbyist.

Agreed. I think we can all agree once and for all that DF27/Z195 made Iberia (current day SPAIN for the nonbelievers), their home.

razyn
06-23-2019, 04:49 PM
A frozen tundra in winter might be more suitable to horses in the summer when everything thaws and dries out.

This piqued my curiosity about how early (or late) our Baltic neighbors might have adopted the practice of foddering, whereby (domesticated) animals that would not normally (i.e. in the wild) survive the long winters might have been kept around -- for winter emergency protein, as well as for the next warm season -- with human assistance (dried hay, and so on). And I came across this; I'll insert a brief excerpt:


the identification of dairy fats associated with Corded Ware pottery now pushes the date for domestication [above the 60th parallel] back to ca 2500 BC and for the first time, directly associates the appearance of a new cultural horizon with the arrival of animal domestication.

And here's the url for the 2014 paper from which I've quoted:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4132672/

ArmandoR1b
06-23-2019, 05:16 PM
The oldest cases of Z195, and therefore Df27, are the samples found in Sicily. Many people have been surprised because they never expect to find this haplogroup in the Western Mediterranean. However, since the samples belong to typically Iberian BBs, you already have Df27 in Iberia in 2,300 BC, along with other samples discovered by Olalde in his last two jobs. In contrast, Z195 has not yet been found in the rest of Europe. Regarding Spain you have 3 cases of Z195 in the Ancient Bronze Age (19th-18th-17th centuries BC) By order of antiquity-Can Roqueta (Sabadell), Lloma de Betxí (Paterna, Valencia) and Galls Carboners (Tarragona), with which the Mediterranean coast of Iberia seems clear that it has something to say in the origin of this subclade of Df27, of course more than Hungary or the Netherlands


It's important to mention that what is and isn't found can be due to several reasons. The ancient specimens they have are only a small percentage of the people that lived at the time the specimens are dated to. They don't have ancient specimens from every region and there are also a lot of ancient specimens that they haven't sequenced. Another reason is that there is DNA damage due to decay. It is because of the DNA damage that there was not a successful test of DF27 and/or Z195 of many of the ancient specimens.

It is also important to be accurate about which specific specimens have tested positive for DF27. I have seen the Olalde tables and the table of ancient specimens from Sicily. There aren't any DF27+ ancient specimens from Iberia dated to 2,300 BC that I have seen. EHU002 is dated to 2562–2306 cal BCE but there is no read for DF27 or Z195. I6539 and I6588 are dated to 2500–2000 BCE but again, no reads on DF27 or Z195. EHU002 and I6539 are positive for P312. I6588 does not have a read on P312. When there is no read there is no way to know if they are positive or negative for those SNPs. The likelihood that they would be positive for DF27 if there had not been DNA damage due to decay is very high based on how common DF27 is in Iberia and the fact that Quedlinburg is dated to 2431-2150 BC meaning that DF27 did already exist in that time period. They all have steppe autosomal DNA.

My way of thinking on this is that DF27 made it's way into Iberia very early on and prospered early in Iberia and because of too few specimens and too much of them with DNA damage that we will never truly know how common and widespread DF27 was in in the Bronze Age. DF27 likely first appeared outside of Iberia, maybe Germany or Switzerland or perhaps as others believe even further east, but it didn't likely first appear in Iberia.


Regarding Hispanic Americans who want to believe that the DF27 that show up beyond Iberia had nothing to do with Iberians but sharing those original Steppe rich BB as ancestors, they will never be able to deny having an Iberian origin because surely the majority are descendants of conquerors mixed with Indians. Probably their racial contradictions and the indigenous ideology makes them think that way
There are a lot of different Hispanic Americans with a lot of different ideas and different mixtures with many caring more about non-Hispanic ancestry even though it is the highest percentage of their non-indigenous ancestry. However, I haven't seen anyone try to say to use the origin of DF27 as a way make it sound as if their European ancestors weren't really from Iberia. Personally I have documented ancestors from Iberia that participated the conquest of the Americas and others that arrived shortly after the conquest and therefore participated in populating the Americas and many of them had encomiendas. Some of the direct paternal descendants have even had advanced Y-DNA testing. It is not anything that upsets me or causes me to deny it or to try to reinvent history. It is a bit bothersome that others keep trying to find an excuse to ignore the facts. None of this has an affect on my deductive reasoning of the origin of DF27.

ArmandoR1b
06-23-2019, 05:25 PM
Agreed. I think we can all agree once and for all that DF27/Z195 made Iberia (current day SPAIN for the nonbelievers), their home.

I don't think that anyone disagrees with that. It has been established for quite a while. It's the origin that has been and is still somewhat in contention. The contention is that the sink is not the source. The river of DF27 caused a pooling of DF27. The source of the river is believed by many to be far away from the pool of DF27.

Hilerno
06-23-2019, 05:48 PM
Agreed. I think we can all agree once and for all that DF27/Z195 made Iberia (current day SPAIN for the nonbelievers), their home.

I certainly agree with you, and I would say that without Df27 (including Z195, ZZ12 and other minor subclades) one would not understand the current genetic makeup of Spain and Portugal, because as you say, more than 40% of men are Df27 and 70% R1b. But other very old clades in the peninsula such as I2a and G2a that have small but important percentages in the current population are also important. Regarding Z195, the truth is that since it appears in the Bronze Age, the Iron Age and the current population, the luck we have is that we do not have to look for its origin in other regions of Europe, just look at any region of Spain, although it is true that it is more frequent in Catalonia, Valencia, the Balearic Islands and Murcia- For me it would be a surprise even if it appeared in the south of France

Hilerno
06-23-2019, 06:13 PM
It's important to mention that what is and isn't found can be due to several reasons. The ancient specimens they have are only a small percentage of the people that lived at the time the specimens are dated to. They don't have ancient specimens from every region and there are also a lot of ancient specimens that they haven't sequenced. Another reason is that there is DNA damage due to decay. It is because of the DNA damage that there was not a successful test of DF27 and/or Z195 of many of the ancient specimens.

It is also important to be accurate about which specific specimens have tested positive for DF27. I have seen the Olalde tables and the table of ancient specimens from Sicily. There aren't any DF27+ ancient specimens from Iberia dated to 2,300 BC that I have seen. EHU002 is dated to 2562–2306 cal BCE but there is no read for DF27 or Z195. I6539 and I6588 are dated to 2500–2000 BCE but again, no reads on DF27 or Z195. EHU002 and I6539 are positive for P312. I6588 does not have a read on P312. When there is no read there is no way to know if they are positive or negative for those SNPs. The likelihood that they would be positive for DF27 if there had not been DNA damage due to decay is very high based on how common DF27 is in Iberia and the fact that Quedlinburg is dated to 2431-2150 BC meaning that DF27 did already exist in that time period. They all have steppe autosomal DNA.

My way of thinking on this is that DF27 made it's way into Iberia very early on and prospered early in Iberia and because of too few specimens and too much of them with DNA damage that we will never truly know how common and widespread DF27 was in in the Bronze Age. DF27 likely first appeared outside of Iberia, maybe Germany or Switzerland or perhaps as others believe even further east, but it didn't likely first appear in Iberia.


There are a lot of different Hispanic Americans with a lot of different ideas and different mixtures with many caring more about non-Hispanic ancestry even though it is the highest percentage of their non-indigenous ancestry. However, I haven't seen anyone try to say to use the origin of DF27 as a way make it sound as if their European ancestors weren't really from Iberia. Personally I have documented ancestors from Iberia that participated the conquest of the Americas and others that arrived shortly after the conquest and therefore participated in populating the Americas and many of them had encomiendas. Some of the direct paternal descendants have even had advanced Y-DNA testing. It is not anything that upsets me or causes me to deny it or to try to reinvent history. It is a bit bothersome that others keep trying to find an excuse to ignore the facts. None of this has an affect on my deductive reasoning of the origin of DF27.

It is clear that everyone has to understand the difficulty of genetic analysis, not only for the damage that the ancient DNA has (in some samples only a few thousand SNPs can be recovered, and if there is luck and these fragments coincide with certain specific regions, geneticists can attribute a haplogroup to the specimen in question)- It is also true that at the moment we have few samples analyzed throughout Europe so that everyone can make conjectures and speculations about the origin and the antiquity of the different lineages.But on the other hand this shortage and difficulty, gives greater importance to the sampless we have. That is, the fact that we already have 14 cases of Df27 in Iberia from the beginning of the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, and that these samples also belong to the two most important subclades of Df27, invites us to think that there was a founder effect of this lineage in the Iberian Peninsula

You have to bear in mind that the other European country that has been sufficiently analyzed in Europe is England, where many cases of R1b are known in the Bronze Age and there is not a single case of Df27 because they are all L21. I suppose you will agree with me that everything points to different regions of origin for the different subclades of P312. Of course I can be wrong, because only with the appearance of one sample of Df27 in the French Italian or German chalcolithic, then we would have to rethink the date of entry of Df27 in the peninsula

Regarding whether Df27 has its origin in Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland, Hungary etc, everyone has their own theory that I suppose depends on their personal preferences. Only by analyzing more ancient sites will we find the solution. At the moment we Spaniards can explain the origin of many subclades of Df27 without having to resort to an origin beyond the Pyrenees.

Hilerno
06-23-2019, 06:22 PM
I don't think that anyone disagrees with that. It has been established for quite a while. It's the origin that has been and is still somewhat in contention. The contention is that the sink is not the source. The river of DF27 caused a pooling of DF27. The source of the river is believed by many to be far away from the pool of DF27.

You can think of any origin for Df27, but to convince people you need proof. Where do you think the Z195 Sicilians came from?

To which source of the river do you mean, the one of Df27? where do you think its source is?

jaumemiquel
06-23-2019, 07:33 PM
I don't think that anyone disagrees with that. It has been established for quite a while. It's the origin that has been and is still somewhat in contention. The contention is that the sink is not the source. The river of DF27 caused a pooling of DF27. The source of the river is believed by many to be far away from the pool of DF27.

The sink is not the source for all SNP's buddy...Where do you stop? in Africa?

alexfritz
06-23-2019, 07:39 PM
You can think of any origin for Df27, but to convince people you need proof. Where do you think the Z195 Sicilians came from?

To which source of the river do you mean, the one of Df27? where do you think its source is?

SICILY BA Steppe Distal Sources
I8561 M EBA 2300-2000BC 0.141p 60.1ANF 16.5WHG 23.3YAM R1b/DF27+ R1b1a1a2a1a1a1 Isnello
[proximate sources* 0.624p 55.3SicMN 44.7FraBB]
I11443 M EBA 2300-2100BC 0.824p 49.3ANF 10.5WHG 40.2YAM R1b/P312+ R1b1a1a2a1a1 Buffa CaveII
[proximate sources* 0.297p 25.8SicMN 74.2FraBB]
I3123 M EBA 2300-2000BC 0.623p 75.2ANF 10.7WHG 14.1YAM R1b/DF27+ R1b1a1a2a1a1a1 Buffa CaveII
[proximate sources* 0.377p 70.3SicMN 29.7FraBB]
I3124 M MBA 1900-1800BC 0.520p 79.0ANF 7.7WHG 13.3YAM R1b/P312+ R1b1a1a2a1a1 Buffa CaveII
I3876 M LBA 1100-900BC 0.687p 78.0ANF 3.3WHG 18.6YAM G2a/P303+ G2a2b2a1a1c1a Marcita

Supp Table14 (EBA only)
*Our modeling of the three outliers identifies France_Bell_Beaker as the only parsimonious fitting second source

france or the south of france is an actual option for these samples

razyn
06-23-2019, 07:48 PM
... You have to bear in mind that the other European country that has been sufficiently analyzed in Europe is England, where many cases of R1b are known in the Bronze Age and there is not a single case of Df27 because they are all L21.

Armando has said enough from the perspective of a well-informed person of Iberian ancestry, and I don't want to keep arguing. [Just corrected my mis-statement , I see you were referring only to the Bronze Age examples in the ancient DNA published thus far.]

But MitchellSince1893 has posted regional maps of the concentration of DF27, U152, L21 and other SNPs in England, as self-reported by FTDNA testers whose MDKA is from a known location in the Isles. The British average for DF27 (in the male population, of course) runs to about 7%, and I believe U152 is a bit more (although in a specific county, one of those usually outnumbers the other). Like any other place, there are hot spots and cold spots, perhaps having much to do with skewed data sources -- and relative strength of the migration from those areas of the present UK to America (or Australia); anyway, away from England to someplace that does more DNA testing. L21 does have much higher percentages, but nowhere near 100%. My wife's family from Devonshire, represented at FTDNA by her brother's BigY, has its own subclade of haplogroup G2-L497.

ArmandoR1b
06-23-2019, 07:49 PM
That is, the fact that we already have 14 cases of Df27 in Iberia from the beginning of the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, and that these samples also belong to the two most important subclades of Df27, invites us to think that there was a founder effect of this lineage in the Iberian Peninsula I counted 13 cases of DF27 in Iberia from the beginning of the Bronze Age to the Iron Age.



You have to bear in mind that the other European country that has been sufficiently analyzed in Europe is England, where many cases of R1b are known in the Bronze Age and there is not a single case of Df27 because they are all L21. I suppose you will agree with me that everything points to different regions of origin for the different subclades of P312. Of course I can be wrong, because only with the appearance of one sample of Df27 in the French Italian or German chalcolithic, then we would have to rethink the date of entry of Df27 in the peninsula
I have posted at Anthrogenica for a very long time and I am well aware of all of that and have been as the studies have been published. I have read every thread, the actual publication, and the supplementary data within days of the publication that has been mentioned at Anthrogenica over the past several years. You are preaching to the choir.



Regarding whether Df27 has its origin in Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland, Hungary etc, everyone has their own theory that I suppose depends on their personal preferences.

I have already explained that I am not using personal preference.




Only by analyzing more ancient sites will we find the solution.
I have already pointed out a caveat, you repeated it in the beginning of your response, then you completely ignored it for that statement. We might not know the full story due to insufficient samples and because so many of them have so much DNA damage.


At the moment we Spaniards can explain the origin of many subclades of Df27 without having to resort to an origin beyond the Pyrenees. The origin of DF27 and the origin of subclades of DF27 are two different things. Which one is it you are posting about? If you read my previous you post you should understand my stance using an unbiased deduction.

Hilerno
06-23-2019, 07:55 PM
SICILY BA Steppe Distal Sources
I8561 M EBA 2300-2000BC 0.141p 60.1ANF 16.5WHG 23.3YAM R1b/DF27+ R1b1a1a2a1a1a1 Isnello
[proximate sources* 0.624p 55.3SicMN 44.7FraBB]
I11443 M EBA 2300-2100BC 0.824p 49.3ANF 10.5WHG 40.2YAM R1b/P312+ R1b1a1a2a1a1 Buffa CaveII
[proximate sources* 0.297p 25.8SicMN 74.2FraBB]
I3123 M EBA 2300-2000BC 0.623p 75.2ANF 10.7WHG 14.1YAM R1b/DF27+ R1b1a1a2a1a1a1 Buffa CaveII
[proximate sources* 0.377p 70.3SicMN 29.7FraBB]
I3124 M MBA 1900-1800BC 0.520p 79.0ANF 7.7WHG 13.3YAM R1b/P312+ R1b1a1a2a1a1 Buffa CaveII
I3876 M LBA 1100-900BC 0.687p 78.0ANF 3.3WHG 18.6YAM G2a/P303+ G2a2b2a1a1c1a Marcita

Supp Table14 (EBA only)
*Our modeling of the three outliers identifies France_Bell_Beaker as the only parsimonious fitting second source

france or the south of france is an actual option for these samples

The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean- Daniel M. Fernandes, Alissa Mittnik, Iñigo Olalde, Iosif Lazaridis -"Two of these were Y-haplogroup R1b1a/1a2a/1a2a/1 (Z195) which today is largely restricted to Iberia and has been hypothesized to have originated there 2500-2000 BCE. This evidence of west-to-east gene flow from Iberia is also suggested by qpAdm modeling where the only parsimonious proximate source for the Steppe ancestry we found in the main Sicily-EBA cluster is Iberians"

Furthermore, when an old sample is classified in a certain haplogroup, it is necessary to know how to interpret the site where it was found, and in this case all the objects related to these individuals do not come from the south of France but from Iberia.

ArmandoR1b
06-23-2019, 08:02 PM
You can think of any origin for Df27, but to convince people you need proof.
Anyone that is willing to be unbiased and use the available data to come to a logical conclusion can see that DF27 itself, the sole mutation that happened in a single person that is the Adam of all DF27 people, was not likely to have lived in Iberia. I am not trying to convince anyone that is happened in a specific region outside of Iberia just that it there is no proof and there is not even an inference based on the data that it happened in Iberia.


Where do you think the Z195 Sicilians came from?
That has absolutely no bearing on the origin of DF27. It's a red herring.



To which source of the river do you mean, the one of Df27? where do you think its source is?
Refer back to the first portion of this post. "I am not trying to convince anyone that is happened in a specific region outside of Iberia just that it there is no proof and there is not even an inference based on the data that it happened in Iberia."

alexfritz
06-23-2019, 08:11 PM
The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean- Daniel M. Fernandes, Alissa Mittnik, Iñigo Olalde, Iosif Lazaridis -"Two of these were Y-haplogroup R1b1a/1a2a/1a2a/1 (Z195) which today is largely restricted to Iberia and has been hypothesized to have originated there 2500-2000 BCE. This evidence of west-to-east gene flow from Iberia is also suggested by qpAdm modeling where the only parsimonious proximate source for the Steppe ancestry we found in the main Sicily-EBA cluster is Iberians"

Furthermore, when an old sample is classified in a certain haplogroup, it is necessary to know how to interpret the site where it was found, and in this case all the objects related to these individuals do not come from the south of France but from Iberia.

but i would caution the collective EBA result because several EBA samples did not have any steppe ancestry infact only the three said samples that they could only model with France_Bell_Beaker had steppe ancestry, now mallorca EBA was modeled 1way with Iberia_High_Steppe so what sailed around in the EBA to the baleares could also have sailed to west sicily(+!archaeo context) so that much is possible, but still each of the two DF27+ samples (in the most parsimonious model) rejected Iberia as the proximate source and accepted france(?olalde et al 2018 samples) so that has to be factored into it aswell

ArmandoR1b
06-23-2019, 08:11 PM
The sink is not the source for all SNP's buddy
That is incorrect. SNPs in the combed region mutate at about every 144 years. If the sink was never the source then every generation would have to move to a completely unrelated region.



...Where do you stop? in Africa?
You use ancient DNA and closely related upstream SNPs and stop in the regions they were found. P312 is upstream of DF27, L151 upstream of P312, L52 is upstream of L151, L51 is upstream of L52, and L23 is upstream of L51. Where has L23 been found prior to the oldest P312 and it's subclades from Olalde et al. 2018 and Olalde et al. 2019?

Hilerno
06-23-2019, 08:51 PM
Anyone that is willing to be unbiased and use the available data to come to a logical conclusion can see that DF27 itself, the sole mutation that happened in a single person that is the Adam of all DF27 people, was not likely to have lived in Iberia. I am not trying to convince anyone that is happened in a specific region outside of Iberia just that it there is no proof and there is not even an inference based on the data that it happened in Iberia.


That has absolutely no bearing on the origin of DF27. It's a red herring.


Refer back to the first portion of this post. "I am not trying to convince anyone that is happened in a specific region outside of Iberia just that it there is no proof and there is not even an inference based on the data that it happened in Iberia."


I count 14 samples in the Bronze Age and in the Iron Age , with the cases of ZZ12 older than Z195, and another two Df27 in the time of the Goths.

If the children of Df27 at the moment have only been found in Iberia, do you think that this is insufficient proof to think of an Iberian origin? It seems to me much more logical to think that the origin of the father is where his children are, or do you think Df27 was traveling through Europe for centuries and that only when he crossed the Pyrenees was he able to leave offspring?

Of course it can happen that cases of ZZ12 and Z195 appear in France and even in Switzerland or Italy, but until that happens, we only have the Iberian samples, and that is what we have to take into account. I do not know if you are Df27, but if you are, I suppose you will be interested as I am in knowing our origin, whatever it is

Hilerno
06-23-2019, 09:00 PM
but i would caution the collective EBA result because several EBA samples did not have any steppe ancestry infact only the three said samples that they could only model with France_Bell_Beaker had steppe ancestry, now mallorca EBA was modeled 1way with Iberia_High_Steppe so what sailed around in the EBA to the baleares could also have sailed to west sicily(+!archaeo context) so that much is possible, but still each of the two DF27+ samples (in the most parsimonious model) rejected Iberia as the proximate source and accepted france(?olalde et al 2018 samples) so that has to be factored into it aswell

I just think the same as Fernandes, Olalde, Mittnik and Lazaridis, that is-"Evidence of west-to-east gene flow from Iberia is also suggested by qpAdm modeling where the only parsimonious proximate source for the Steppe ancestry we found in the main Sicily-EBA cluster is Iberians"

In any case, the similarities between Iberian BB sites and those of southern France are so great, that any route is possible. That is, they could reach Sicily by sailing from Andalucia, the Balearic Islands, Liguria, central Italy or the mouth of the Rhone River, but in any case the pottery they brought with them came not from the Neherlands or Germany but from Spain.

ArmandoR1b
06-23-2019, 09:26 PM
The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean- Daniel M. Fernandes, Alissa Mittnik, Iñigo Olalde, Iosif Lazaridis -"Two of these were Y-haplogroup R1b1a/1a2a/1a2a/1 (Z195) which today is largely restricted to Iberia and has been hypothesized to have originated there 2500-2000 BCE.57 This evidence of west-to-east gene flow from Iberia is also suggested by qpAdm modeling where the only parsimonious proximate source for the Steppe ancestry we found in the main Sicily-EBA cluster is Iberians"


Even though the Sicilian Z195 it is a red herring as the source of DF27, I am going to comment on what I bolded since the reference for that statement needs to be pointed out. The reference is Solé-Morata, N. et al. Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ. Sci. Rep. 7, 7341 (2017). (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x) That study was published prior to Olalde et al. 2018 and Olalde et al. 2019 and none of the studies are take into consideration the DF27 from Quedlinburg dated to 2431-2150 BC. The Solé-Morata et al. 2017 study mainly uses modern distribution of DF27 although it does reference Haak et al. 2015 and Allentoft et al. 2015 but it is missing a big part of the picture without the Quedlinburg specimen and without the samples from Olalde et al. 2018 such as E09568 from Hugo-Eckener-Straße, Augsburg, Bavaria that is dated to 2460–2210 calBCE and is R-L52 and R-P311 but ancestral for R-L151 and R-S1159. That person descends comes from the same population that lead to R-L151 and then to P312. Since he was in Germany and DF27 was also in Quedlinburg, Germany around the same time and they estimated an age of 4190 ± 140 ya for the whole of DF27 then there is problem because DF27 shows up outside of Iberia around the same time it was supposed to have first appeared.

ArmandoR1b
06-23-2019, 09:56 PM
I count 14 samples in the Bronze Age and in the Iron Age , with the cases of ZZ12 older than Z195, and another two Df27 in the time of the Goths. I'll see if I have time to make a table of them later.



If the children of Df27 at the moment have only been found in Iberia, do you think that this is insufficient proof to think of an Iberian origin?
Yes, as I have explained, too few specimens have been sequenced, and too many of the specimens that have been sequenced do not have reads for DF27 and most of the SNPs downstream from DF27.



It seems to me much more logical to think that the origin of the father is where his children are, or do you think Df27 was traveling through Europe for centuries and that only when he crossed the Pyrenees was he able to leave offspring?
These were people that were traveling a lot at the time. How else did people from the Eurasian Steppe all of the sudden show up in western Europe with new Y-DNA haplogroups and new autosomal DNA and a new culture? These people also likely had a very large number of children and descendants just like the encomenderos of Mexico did when they arrived in Mexico. Since the parents and recent ancestors of the Bronze Age Steppe people were willing to travel their descendants were also willing to travel to find new land for themselves. Just like the Iberian BB went to Sicily.



Of course it can happen that cases of ZZ12 and Z195 appear in France and even in Switzerland or Italy, but until that happens, we only have the Iberian samples, and that is what we have to take into account. We have to take into account all of the data. Everything. To not leave anything out. We also have to leave bias to the side. We also have to use deductive reasoning based on the data. Once we have done all of that then we are left with the logical conclusion that DF27 was born outside of Iberia and we still don't know which subclades of DF27 were born outside of Iberia and which were born in Iberia.



I do not know if you are Df27, but if you are, I suppose you will be interested as I am in knowing our origin, whatever it isYes, I am positive for DF27 and have been involved in DNA testing since 2009 long before DF27 was discovered and have been reading up on the origin of DF27 ever since it was discovered. I have been posting here at Anthrogenica for a very long time. I joined in July of 2013 and it was probably not long after Anthrogenica was first created. I have been active ever since because I want to know as much as possible about what has been found and what is left to be found.

jaumemiquel
06-23-2019, 10:58 PM
I'll see if I have time to make a table of them later.


Yes, as I have explained, too few specimens have been sequenced, and too many of the specimens that have been sequenced do not have reads for DF27 and most of the SNPs downstream from DF27.


These were people that were traveling a lot at the time. How else did people from the Eurasian Steppe all of the sudden show up in western Europe with new Y-DNA haplogroups and new autosomal DNA and a new culture? These people also likely had a very large number of children and descendants just like the encomenderos of Mexico did when they arrived in Mexico. Since the parents and recent ancestors of the Bronze Age Steppe people were willing to travel their descendants were also willing to travel to find new land for themselves. Just like the Iberian BB went to Sicily.

We have to take into account all of the data. Everything. To not leave anything out. We also have to leave bias to the side. We also have to use deductive reasoning based on the data. Once we have done all of that then we are left with the logical conclusion that DF27 was born outside of Iberia and we still don't know which subclades of DF27 were born outside of Iberia and which were born in Iberia.

Yes, I am positive for DF27 and have been involved in DNA testing since 2009 long before DF27 was discovered and have been reading up on the origin of DF27 ever since it was discovered. I have been posting here at Anthrogenica for a very long time. I joined in July of 2013 and it was probably not long after Anthrogenica was first created. I have been active ever since because I want to know as much as possible about what has been found and what is left to be found.

Carlos and Olalde talk about a Z195 linage of old European substrate (March 2019):
In this case, if stemming from Iberia, it is most likely of subclade R1b-Z220 – or another Z195 (xM167) lineage – originally associated with the Old European substrate found in topo-hydronymy in Iberia, whose most likely remnants attested during the Iron Age were Lusitanians.

Still a dilemma indeed.

ArmandoR1b
06-24-2019, 01:34 AM
Carlos and Olalde talk about a Z195 linage of old European substrate (March 2019):
In this case, if stemming from Iberia, it is most likely of subclade R1b-Z220 – or another Z195 (xM167) lineage – originally associated with the Old European substrate found in topo-hydronymy in Iberia, whose most likely remnants attested during the Iron Age were Lusitanians.

Still a dilemma indeed.

I see where Carlos posted that here (https://indo-european.eu/2019/03/arrival-of-steppe-ancestry-with-r1b-p312-in-the-mediterranean-balearic-islands-sicily-and-iron-age-sardinia/) but I don't see where Olalde has stated anything about that. Regardless, the statement is about the Sicilian Z195 samples. That one I do believe did arrive to Sicily from Iberia since Sicily_EBA includes the specimens positive for R1b1a1a2a1a2a1 (Z195) and they show to be a close match to mix of Sicily_MN and Bell_Beaker_Iberia_highsteppe. The Sicilian Z195 samples are I8561 and I3123. Their date in the spreadsheet are -3285 BP and -3202 BP respectively. Present in 14C dating is 1950. So the specimens are from about 1335 BC and 1225 BC. That is a long time after the likely first appearance of DF27 in Spain. The coverage is 4.243 and 5.19 respectively which is very good so once the specimens are uploaded to European Nucleotide Archive (ENA) then we can see if there are hits on subclades of Z195.

I am still very interested in finding out more. Even so, the Sicilian BB specimens don't have much to say about the origin of DF27.

ArmandoR1b
06-24-2019, 01:53 AM
I count 14 samples in the Bronze Age and in the Iron Age , with the cases of ZZ12 older than Z195, and another two Df27 in the time of the Goths.
Here is the table that I have. Let me know which one you claim should be included. It would make things easier if you were to use the ID or burial site for the 14th individual.




ID
Y-DNA (Rocca) or study
Date (Direct radiocarbon date on the individual calibrated at 2 sigma or date range based on the archaeological context)
Y-chr
Pop name
Cultural affiliation
Site
Country


I3756
8762842 = Z33440 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>A6387>BY61519
2014–1781 cal BCE (3565±25 BP, PSUAMS-2077)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA

Castillejo del Bonete, Terrinches, Ciudad Real, Castilla-La Mancha
Spain


I12209
21380200 = DF27-S250 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250
1368–1211 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1a2a1a2b1,xR1b1a 1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
La Requejada, San Román de Hornija, Valladolid, Castilla y León
Spain


I6470
19736631 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12
1753–1549 cal BCE (3375±35 BP, Poz-49177)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2b,xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1 a2a1a2a1,xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA

Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos, Castilla y León
Spain


VAD001
DF27>Z225
1867–1616 cal BCE (3400±35 BP, Ua-36345)
R1b1a1a2a1a2a5
N_Iberia_BA

Valdescusa, Hervías, La Rioja
Spain


I1312_d
17922066 = Z195-S227 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S227
2000–1400 BCE [1930–1634 cal BCE (3465±60 BP, UBAR-697), 1867–1526 cal BCE (3370±50 BP, UBAR-670), 1736–1453 cal BCE (3305±55 BP, UBAR-671), 1877–1526 cal BCE (3380±60 BP, UBAR-672), four dates of the whole stratigraphy of the site]
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
NE_Iberia_BA

Can Roqueta II, Sabadell, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


I4563
R-M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z198>PH1909 > BY36372
1700–1500 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
NE_Iberia_BA

Galls Carboners, Mont-ral, Tarragona, Catalonia
Spain


I3494
22024379 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>BY3332
1920–1753 cal BCE (3515±30 BP, CNA-1661.1.1)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
SE_Iberia_BA

Coveta del Frare, La Font de la Figuera, València/Valencia, Valencian Community
Spain


I3324
7571621 S450-Z268 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>S450
360–193 cal BCE (2190±20 BP, PSUAMS-2159)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
E_Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Puig de Sant Andreu, Ullastret, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3320
DF27>Z225
300–100 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2a5
E_Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Els Estrets de la Rata, Vilafamés, Castelló/Castellón, Valencian Community
Spain


I8206
21930315 = L165-S68 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z198>L165/S68
300–100 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2
NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries1)

Empúries, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3582
8456571 = PF7595-Z211-S358 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>S450>Z295/S1217>ZZ77>Z216
400–600 CE
R1b1a1a2a1a2
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE

El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


I3576
13681707 = BY35080 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>BY3332>PH4023
408–538 cal CE (1595±25 BP, PSUAMS-2117)
R1b1a1a2a1a2
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE

El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


esp005.SG
DF27
1430–1410 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2a(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA.SG

Cueva de los Lagos, Aguilar de Alhama, La Rioja
Spain

razyn
06-24-2019, 02:01 AM
Here is the table that I have.

That is quite a job! I almost didn't think to scroll right, I'm not very high-techish. There is a huge amount of detail here, compared with just skimming through the papers. And it's been winnowed for the DF27.

Hilerno
06-24-2019, 07:09 AM
Here is the table that I have. Let me know which one you claim should be included. It would make things easier if you were to use the ID or burial site for the 14th individual.




ID
Y-DNA (Rocca) or study
Date (Direct radiocarbon date on the individual calibrated at 2 sigma or date range based on the archaeological context)
Y-chr
Pop name
Cultural affiliation
Site
Country


I3756
8762842 = Z33440 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>A6387>BY61519
2014–1781 cal BCE (3565±25 BP, PSUAMS-2077)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA

Castillejo del Bonete, Terrinches, Ciudad Real, Castilla-La Mancha
Spain


I12209
21380200 = DF27-S250 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250
1368–1211 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1a2a1a2b1,xR1b1a 1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
La Requejada, San Román de Hornija, Valladolid, Castilla y León
Spain


I6470
19736631 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12
1753–1549 cal BCE (3375±35 BP, Poz-49177)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2b,xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1 a2a1a2a1,xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA

Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos, Castilla y León
Spain


VAD001
DF27>Z225
1867–1616 cal BCE (3400±35 BP, Ua-36345)
R1b1a1a2a1a2a5
N_Iberia_BA

Valdescusa, Hervías, La Rioja
Spain


I1312_d
17922066 = Z195-S227 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S227
2000–1400 BCE [1930–1634 cal BCE (3465±60 BP, UBAR-697), 1867–1526 cal BCE (3370±50 BP, UBAR-670), 1736–1453 cal BCE (3305±55 BP, UBAR-671), 1877–1526 cal BCE (3380±60 BP, UBAR-672), four dates of the whole stratigraphy of the site]
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
NE_Iberia_BA

Can Roqueta II, Sabadell, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


I4563
R-M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z198>PH1909 > BY36372
1700–1500 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
NE_Iberia_BA

Galls Carboners, Mont-ral, Tarragona, Catalonia
Spain


I3494
22024379 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>BY3332
1920–1753 cal BCE (3515±30 BP, CNA-1661.1.1)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
SE_Iberia_BA

Coveta del Frare, La Font de la Figuera, València/Valencia, Valencian Community
Spain


I3324
7571621 S450-Z268 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>S450
360–193 cal BCE (2190±20 BP, PSUAMS-2159)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
E_Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Puig de Sant Andreu, Ullastret, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3320
DF27>Z225
300–100 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2a5
E_Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Els Estrets de la Rata, Vilafamés, Castelló/Castellón, Valencian Community
Spain


I8206
21930315 = L165-S68 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z198>L165/S68
300–100 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2
NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries1)

Empúries, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3582
8456571 = PF7595-Z211-S358 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>S450>Z295/S1217>ZZ77>Z216
400–600 CE
R1b1a1a2a1a2
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE

El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


I3576
13681707 = BY35080 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>BY3332>PH4023
408–538 cal CE (1595±25 BP, PSUAMS-2117)
R1b1a1a2a1a2
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE

El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


esp005.SG
DF27
1430–1410 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2a(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA.SG

Cueva de los Lagos, Aguilar de Alhama, La Rioja
Spain






I think I3997-Lloma de Betxi (Paterna, Valencia-1.741 BC) is positive for Z195-The site is a non-walled village of the culture of the Ancient Valencian Bronze Age. The important thing is that probably the Bronze Age in Iberia will be mostly R1b-P312 / Df27, that is to say all its cultures have turned out to be dominated by this haplogroup (El Argar, Las Motillas, Valencian Bronze, Bronze of the Northeast, Bronze of the Guadalquivir, Atlantic Bronze, Las Cogotas). This explains why the Iberian peoples of the Iron Age were also R1b-P312 and why currently 70% of Spanish men is R1b-

Regarding BBs Df27 in Sicily, I see that you agree on an Iberian origin, I believe that no one can doubt it

I3123-BU31, grave 3031, cranium III- Skull, with the left portion of the frontal bone missing, extremely brachycephalic (“planoccipital”)- The skull sutures are open. Morphologically the individual is inferred to be a male. C14 dated to 2287-2044 calBCE (3760±30 BP, 138 PSUAMS-3892)- (2.165 BC)-
I8561-Abisso del Vento-C14 dated to 2346-2199 calBCE 298 (3825±20 BP, PSUAMS-4873) (2.272 AC)-

These individuals and also the other R1b-P312 negative for Df27 are colonists or Iberian traders mixed with Sicilian women

If you are Df27 you will understand why this discussion is so interesting for us, there are some cases of Iberian BBs that could be Df27, specifically one case in Humanejos and another in El Virgazal. Regarding the samplee that you mentioned EH001/EH002, from the site of El Hundido, they are very old and I do not know if anyone has checked if they have SNPs below Df27. The important thing is that, as we have many P312 in Iberia from the 25/24 century BC, those cases can be perfectly the parents of the Iberian Df27

Hilerno
06-24-2019, 07:16 AM
Carlos and Olalde talk about a Z195 linage of old European substrate (March 2019):
In this case, if stemming from Iberia, it is most likely of subclade R1b-Z220 – or another Z195 (xM167) lineage – originally associated with the Old European substrate found in topo-hydronymy in Iberia, whose most likely remnants attested during the Iron Age were Lusitanians.

Still a dilemma indeed.

Yes still a dilemma, but with respect to the page that you mentioned of Carlos Quiles, he is obsessed with demonstrating his theory of the demic diffusion of the IE language, and not only is he not interpreting correctly what is happening in Iberia, but he is ignoring evidence that indicates that maybe things did not happen as he thinks

Webb
06-24-2019, 09:41 AM
Here is the table that I have. Let me know which one you claim should be included. It would make things easier if you were to use the ID or burial site for the 14th individual.




ID
Y-DNA (Rocca) or study
Date (Direct radiocarbon date on the individual calibrated at 2 sigma or date range based on the archaeological context)
Y-chr
Pop name
Cultural affiliation
Site
Country


I3756
8762842 = Z33440 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>A6387>BY61519
2014–1781 cal BCE (3565±25 BP, PSUAMS-2077)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA

Castillejo del Bonete, Terrinches, Ciudad Real, Castilla-La Mancha
Spain


I12209
21380200 = DF27-S250 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250
1368–1211 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1a2a1a2b1,xR1b1a 1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
La Requejada, San Román de Hornija, Valladolid, Castilla y León
Spain


I6470
19736631 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12
1753–1549 cal BCE (3375±35 BP, Poz-49177)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2b,xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1 a2a1a2a1,xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA

Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos, Castilla y León
Spain


VAD001
DF27>Z225
1867–1616 cal BCE (3400±35 BP, Ua-36345)
R1b1a1a2a1a2a5
N_Iberia_BA

Valdescusa, Hervías, La Rioja
Spain


I1312_d
17922066 = Z195-S227 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S227
2000–1400 BCE [1930–1634 cal BCE (3465±60 BP, UBAR-697), 1867–1526 cal BCE (3370±50 BP, UBAR-670), 1736–1453 cal BCE (3305±55 BP, UBAR-671), 1877–1526 cal BCE (3380±60 BP, UBAR-672), four dates of the whole stratigraphy of the site]
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
NE_Iberia_BA

Can Roqueta II, Sabadell, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


I4563
R-M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z198>PH1909 > BY36372
1700–1500 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
NE_Iberia_BA

Galls Carboners, Mont-ral, Tarragona, Catalonia
Spain


I3494
22024379 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>BY3332
1920–1753 cal BCE (3515±30 BP, CNA-1661.1.1)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
SE_Iberia_BA

Coveta del Frare, La Font de la Figuera, València/Valencia, Valencian Community
Spain


I3324
7571621 S450-Z268 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>S450
360–193 cal BCE (2190±20 BP, PSUAMS-2159)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
E_Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Puig de Sant Andreu, Ullastret, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3320
DF27>Z225
300–100 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2a5
E_Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Els Estrets de la Rata, Vilafamés, Castelló/Castellón, Valencian Community
Spain


I8206
21930315 = L165-S68 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z198>L165/S68
300–100 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2
NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries1)

Empúries, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3582
8456571 = PF7595-Z211-S358 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>S450>Z295/S1217>ZZ77>Z216
400–600 CE
R1b1a1a2a1a2
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE

El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


I3576
13681707 = BY35080 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>BY3332>PH4023
408–538 cal CE (1595±25 BP, PSUAMS-2117)
R1b1a1a2a1a2
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE

El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


esp005.SG
DF27
1430–1410 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2a(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA.SG

Cueva de los Lagos, Aguilar de Alhama, La Rioja
Spain






R.Rocca withdrew the L165 call for I8206 a month or so on a separate thread. I think this sample is still Z195/Z196, though. I’ll look for his post later today.

Hilerno
06-24-2019, 11:26 AM
I'll see if I have time to make a table of them later.


Yes, as I have explained, too few specimens have been sequenced, and too many of the specimens that have been sequenced do not have reads for DF27 and most of the SNPs downstream from DF27.


These were people that were traveling a lot at the time. How else did people from the Eurasian Steppe all of the sudden show up in western Europe with new Y-DNA haplogroups and new autosomal DNA and a new culture? These people also likely had a very large number of children and descendants just like the encomenderos of Mexico did when they arrived in Mexico. Since the parents and recent ancestors of the Bronze Age Steppe people were willing to travel their descendants were also willing to travel to find new land for themselves. Just like the Iberian BB went to Sicily.

We have to take into account all of the data. Everything. To not leave anything out. We also have to leave bias to the side. We also have to use deductive reasoning based on the data. Once we have done all of that then we are left with the logical conclusion that DF27 was born outside of Iberia and we still don't know which subclades of DF27 were born outside of Iberia and which were born in Iberia.

Yes, I am positive for DF27 and have been involved in DNA testing since 2009 long before DF27 was discovered and have been reading up on the origin of DF27 ever since it was discovered. I have been posting here at Anthrogenica for a very long time. I joined in July of 2013 and it was probably not long after Anthrogenica was first created. I have been active ever since because I want to know as much as possible about what has been found and what is left to be found.

Well I can be new in this forum, but I already have a lot of experience in this world of genetics and archeology, I participate in a Foundation that is dedicated to promoting genetic studies throughout Spain and the protection of the historical artistic heritage in Castilla y León ( including archaeological sites), so we can all learn things if we share our knowledge-The Foundation has good relations with similar institutions in Italy, France and some Hispanic countries such as Mexico. That is why it is also interesting to know the opinion of descendants of Spanish conquistadores or settlers in those countries. I guess those people will have different opinions about the origin of their Spanish lineages but what is undeniable is that the cultural and genetic relationship is huge.

I will try to read some of your posts, to understand what it is that has led you to be so convinced of a German ?, French? origin of Df27-In any case I think that locating the origin with exact geographic coordinates is going to be a very complicated matter, because the mobility of the prehistoric populations is amazing

Regarding the scarcity of samples analyzed, this situation can affect Italy and even France, but not Spain, Germany or England. The abundance of data in those countries is enough to get a pretty good idea of ​​how events happened, although it is true that everyone interprets the data as best they know or can, and it is clear that we can not agree on everything

I am very surprised by the situation of Df27 in the British Isles (I just read that it reaches 7% of men) and Germany (where I think it is only 2%). I do not know if someone here, have reliable percentages (with the latest studies done in Europe) to get an idea of ​​the dispersion of the lineage.

MitchellSince1893
06-24-2019, 12:44 PM
I am very surprised by the situation of Df27 in the British Isles (I just read that it reaches 7% of men) and Germany (where I think it is only 2%). I do not know if someone here, have reliable percentages (with the latest studies done in Europe) to get an idea of ​​the dispersion of the lineage.

In the FTDNA database of over 170000 samples (23495 of which are in England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland, and Ireland);
DF27 makes up the following percentages
England: 5.6%
Scotland: 4.4%
Wales: 4.2%
N. Ireland: 6.2%
United Kingdom total: 5.1%

Ireland: 3.3%

Study I did earlier from FTDNA database. DF27 in Orange on pie charts but these percentages are for R1b only samples. So total percentages will be much less in non Western European countries.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ac/3c/fe/ac3cfe1135c8860dff51139055efe522.png
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps&p=266907&viewfull=1#post266907

jaumemiquel
06-24-2019, 12:56 PM
Well I can be new in this forum, but I already have a lot of experience in this world of genetics and archeology, I participate in a Foundation that is dedicated to promoting genetic studies throughout Spain and the protection of the historical artistic heritage in Castilla y León ( including archaeological sites), so we can all learn things if we share our knowledge-The Foundation has good relations with similar institutions in Italy, France and some Hispanic countries such as Mexico. That is why it is also interesting to know the opinion of descendants of Spanish conquistadores or settlers in those countries. I guess those people will have different opinions about the origin of their Spanish lineages but what is undeniable is that the cultural and genetic relationship is huge.

I will try to read some of your posts, to understand what it is that has led you to be so convinced of a German ?, French? origin of Df27-In any case I think that locating the origin with exact geographic coordinates is going to be a very complicated matter, because the mobility of the prehistoric populations is amazing

Regarding the scarcity of samples analyzed, this situation can affect Italy and even France, but not Spain, Germany or England. The abundance of data in those countries is enough to get a pretty good idea of ​​how events happened, although it is true that everyone interprets the data as best they know or can, and it is clear that we can not agree on everything

I am very surprised by the situation of Df27 in the British Isles (I just read that it reaches 7% of men) and Germany (where I think it is only 2%). I do not know if someone here, have reliable percentages (with the latest studies done in Europe) to get an idea of ​​the dispersion of the lineage.

HIlerno, yo doy positivo en Z195/DF17 pero negativo en DF27, segun fmtdna...extrano eso, no?

Webb
06-24-2019, 01:24 PM
I have a spreadsheet that I pulled from the study of Southern France, Bashkirs, and Tats(Northeast Caucasus). This spreadsheet has totals of 15 other studies combined. It doesn't show DF27, but it has P312(xL21xU152). I will rank P312(xL21xU152) in order of concentration.

Andalusia, Sevilla: 52%
Castille and Leon, Leon: 47%
Portugal, Lisbon: 44%
Cantabria, Santander: 37%
Var (coastal, E of Rhone): 35%
Valencian Community, Valencia: 32%
Bouches du Rhone (at mouth): 32%
Vaucluse (upstream Rhone): 30%
Alpes de Haute Provence: 29%
France South: 29%
France East: 24%
Ireland Southwest: 23%
France West: 21%
Ireland East: 19%
Switzerland Northwest: 19%
Ireland North: 14%
Ireland South: 13%
Switzerland Northeast: 13%
Switzerland South: 13%
England Central: 12%
England North: 11%
Germany South: 10%

Some of these P312(xL21xU152) probably include DF19, DF99, etc.

Hilerno
06-24-2019, 02:11 PM
HIlerno, yo doy positivo en Z195/DF17 pero negativo en DF27, segun fmtdna...extrano eso, no?

No, it's not strange, you're one of ours. I have seen in another thread that you are Majorcan (saluda a Nadal de mi parte). My advice is that you try to form your own opinion by reading a lot and without believing everything that people say (including me)

Hilerno
06-24-2019, 02:36 PM
Webb and MitchellSince- Thanks, If those percentages are reliable, the truth is that they surprise me even more, especially Germany (10%), Ireland (13-23%), and the percentages in the east (Hungary and Ukraine). I think they are very high. I suppose it will be relatively easy to find out which subclades of Df27 are typical of each region, in order to determine their age. If those clades are old enough, sooner or later they will appear in the ancient dna of those regions, if they do not, then people will have to start looking for explanations in Iberia.

At the moment we only know that Df27 is absolutely linked to the BB culture (including the Sicilian samples), and in Spain to the culture of Las Cogotas, the culture of Las Motillas and other cultures of the Bronze Age. Regarding the Iron Age, it has been found in three Iberian peoples on the Mediterranean coast. Thanks to genetics, Spanish archaeologists have solved a debate of more than 100 years, that is to say the evident cultural continuity between the Bell Beaker culture and Las Cogotas culture. Both overwhelmingly R1b-P312/DF27

Hilerno
06-24-2019, 02:40 PM
MitchellSince- Where is the "Tierra de Ayllón"? Ayllón is one of my last names

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_V%C3%A1zquez_de_Ayll%C3%B3n

Ruderico
06-24-2019, 02:44 PM
MitchellSince- Where is the "Tierra de Ayllón"? Ayllón is one of my last names

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_V%C3%A1zquez_de_Ayll%C3%B3n

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comunidad_de_villa_y_tierra_de_Ayll%C3%B3n

jaumemiquel
06-24-2019, 02:45 PM
No, it's not strange, you're one of ours. I have seen in another thread that you are Majorcan (saluda a Nadal de mi parte). My advice is that you try to form your own opinion by reading a lot and without believing everything that people say (including me)

Will do man, thanks. Mallorquin y de madre Castellano leonesa H1J...vacceo puro LOL

Hilerno
06-24-2019, 04:05 PM
Will do man, thanks. Mallorquin y de madre Castellano leonesa H1J...vacceo puro LOL

Castilla y León is going to finance a project to examine Vacceos, Vettones and Astures deposits. It is very interesting because they are going to try to demonstrate the genetic continuity with Las Cogotas culture (ie R1b-Df27). More interesting will be to check the linguistic implications of the results. Only in the city of Pintia we have more than 30 individuals (all children) to analyze

razyn
06-24-2019, 05:13 PM
This is getting a little more interesting, now. If Mitchell says 5% (instead of the 7% I had dimly recalled), that's probably correct; anyway England, like the rest of Europe, is well supplied with DF27 -- just not nearly as well supplied as Iberia. And I may have been looking at the stats for some region more (or less) specific than the UK.

Anyway, about 2 1/2 years ago there was a pretty active thread on which he posted a good many maps, also pie charts and tables. I'll link the first one on which he broke down the DF27 in England by counties. Again, this is based on what FTDNA testers had self-reported for their most distant known male-line ancestor. It may contain errors or guesswork, and many testers just report "USA" or something -- because they don't know where their first identified ancestor came from when he shows up in colonial Connecticut, Virginia or wherever. But it's what we have to work with; and it's not insignificant, because the testing group is quite large. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6154-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-Percentages-and-maps-for-England-Source-FTDNA-Y-DNA-projects&p=131772&viewfull=1#post131772

I was the lead administrator of the DF27 haplogroup project (at FTDNA) for its first four years, 2013-17. In July of 2017 that baton was passed to Lucas McCaw, who is much younger and more agile with the technology of sorting a few thousand files by pushing buttons. (That was not a big part of my higher education in the 1960s and 70s.) Anyway I am still registered as an admin, and can access tools in that project, membership of which now numbers almost 3,300. I had planned to insert a screen shot of the members' breakdown by place of origin, but I seem to have "exceeded my quota," whatever that means. I think I may have posted too many megabytes of pictures, or need to pay some dues.

jaumemiquel
06-24-2019, 05:58 PM
Castilla y León is going to finance a project to examine Vacceos, Vettones and Astures deposits. It is very interesting because they are going to try to demonstrate the genetic continuity with Las Cogotas culture (ie R1b-Df27). More interesting will be to check the linguistic implications of the results. Only in the city of Pintia we have more than 30 individuals (all children) to analyze

Nice to know, hopefully that sheds some light to see if vaccei were related to the neighboring tribes Arevacos (Numantia) and Celtiberian.

Ruderico
06-24-2019, 06:08 PM
Castilla y León is going to finance a project to examine Vacceos, Vettones and Astures deposits. It is very interesting because they are going to try to demonstrate the genetic continuity with Las Cogotas culture (ie R1b-Df27). More interesting will be to check the linguistic implications of the results. Only in the city of Pintia we have more than 30 individuals (all children) to analyze

I hope they go for autossomal analysis, yDNA and mtDNA are nice and all, but in the end what matters the most is the whole thing, rather than just two small parts of the genome

Hilerno
06-24-2019, 06:44 PM
I hope they go for autossomal analysis, yDNA and mtDNA are nice and all, but in the end what matters the most is the whole thing, rather than just two small parts of the genome

In Avila a genetic project has been made and the results are quite surprising because in relation to the autosomal DNA and the Ychromosome the Castilians of Avila are very very Basque, which on the other hand confirms the studies of ancient toponymy of the Extremadura Castellana with a high percentage of villages founded by Riojan, Basque and Navarrese. However, the repopulation of Salamanca was made by the Galician, Leonese and Asturians. The most surprising thing about the study is the total absence of Levantine component (for example, not a single case of J1 or T has been found), and the small percentage of North African blood. The final results will be published in a book by the end of the year

Regarding Pintia, the truth is that there are not many surprises expected, even in the autosomal component, because the genetic continuity is amazing in Iberia (taking into account our history). Do you expect to find something relevant in an autosomal study of vacceos or vettones? after all, are peoples very similar to the Lusitanians. Is there any study on this in Portugal?

Hilerno
06-24-2019, 06:51 PM
This is getting a little more interesting, now. If Mitchell says 5% (instead of the 7% I had dimly recalled), that's probably correct; anyway England, like the rest of Europe, is well supplied with DF27 -- just not nearly as well supplied as Iberia. And I may have been looking at the stats for some region more (or less) specific than the UK.

Anyway, about 2 1/2 years ago there was a pretty active thread on which he posted a good many maps, also pie charts and tables. I'll link the first one on which he broke down the DF27 in England by counties. Again, this is based on what FTDNA testers had self-reported for their most distant known male-line ancestor. It may contain errors or guesswork, and many testers just report "USA" or something -- because they don't know where their first identified ancestor came from when he shows up in colonial Connecticut, Virginia or wherever. But it's what we have to work with; and it's not insignificant, because the testing group is quite large. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6154-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-Percentages-and-maps-for-England-Source-FTDNA-Y-DNA-projects&p=131772&viewfull=1#post131772

I was the lead administrator of the DF27 haplogroup project (at FTDNA) for its first four years, 2013-17. In July of 2017 that baton was passed to Lucas McCaw, who is much younger and more agile with the technology of sorting a few thousand files by pushing buttons. (That was not a big part of my higher education in the 1960s and 70s.) Anyway I am still registered as an admin, and can access tools in that project, membership of which now numbers almost 3,300. I had planned to insert a screen shot of the members' breakdown by place of origin, but I seem to have "exceeded my quota," whatever that means. I think I may have posted too many megabytes of pictures, or need to pay some dues.

And do you know the variability of subclades in England and in North America? Is there more ZZ12 or Z195?

Dewsloth
06-24-2019, 07:00 PM
And do you know the variability of subclades in England and in North America? Is there more ZZ12 or Z195?

Have you clicked on those subclades, here?

https://www.ytree.net/

Edit: Once you do, wait a few seconds for the flags to show up at the bottom

Hilerno
06-24-2019, 07:17 PM
Have you clicked on those subclades, here?

https://www.ytree.net/

Edit: Once you do, wait a few seconds for the flags to show up at the bottom

805-ZZ12 against 518-Z195, but it is obvious that they are people from all countries. I said that it would be interesting to know the percentages of each country (including its regions of origin). I do not have time to add all that data it would be good if someone did it because we could understand certain migration guidelines.

razyn
06-24-2019, 08:39 PM
The only way to generate a Z195 or ZZ12 snapshot like that (with the admin tools at FTDNA) would be to have separate ZZ12 and Z195 projects, and we have neither.

The little flags on the Ytree linked by Dewsloth are informative, but Ytree only has a fraction of the kits tested at FTDNA. However, it tends to be the kits that have tested there most thoroughly, with NextGen sequencing. Ytree also includes FGC testers, the 1000 Genomes project, and some other results not displayed in the FTDNA project. Here is DF27, per se, at Ytree: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=29

As Dewsloth mentioned, you can click on the lead SNP of any subclade that particularly interests you. Any large group (such as DF27) can be slow to load; therefore some of us prefer to save (bookmark) the url for a much smaller group, such as DF17 or Z225. For example, I have long since bookmarked FGC15710, the group I'm in.

Here is the url for the group including DF17 (and many other SNPs that currently are at the same level, unless or until further NextGen sequencing reveals branching at that level that can break it down, somewhat): http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=624&star=false

MitchellSince1893
06-24-2019, 09:13 PM
MitchellSince- Where is the "Tierra de Ayllón"? Ayllón is one of my last names

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_V%C3%A1zquez_de_Ayll%C3%B3n

I'm referring to this "Tierra de Ayllón"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_V%C3%A1zquez_de_Ayll%C3%B3n#/media/File:Detail_Ayllon_Map_of_Diego_Ribero_1539.jpg

Map detail by Diego Ribero (1529), showing southeastern coast of current US was named Tiera de Ayllon It was the earliest European name for the area where I'm from.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_V%C3%A1zquez_de_Ayll%C3%B3n

MitchellSince1893
06-24-2019, 09:30 PM
And do you know the variability of subclades in England and in North America? Is there more ZZ12 or Z195?

In the FTDNA database

Z195: Total samples: 3817
US: 137
England: 320
Ireland: 97

ZZ12_1: Total samples 2229
US: 147:
England: 274
Ireland: 160

Shadogowah
06-24-2019, 09:30 PM
HIlerno, yo doy positivo en Z195/DF17 pero negativo en DF27, segun fmtdna...extrano eso, no?

That would be like saying that you are a feline and a cat but not a mammal.

I have read many times that the mutation/s that define/s DF27 seems to be located in a tricky location and when it is not properly read during the test, FTDNA just states "presumed positive" if you happen to tick the boxes in other well known mutations below.

You would be the first case I know where they state "negative" for DF27 but positive for well known DF27's subclades.

In my case it was marked as "No call or heterozygous call" (And as I ignore how you could have an heterozygous call in a Y chromosome mutation, I assumed it was a no call). However I clearly belong to the DF27 branch because I am positive for a long list of mutations below it.

jaumemiquel
06-24-2019, 10:17 PM
That would be like saying that you are a feline and a cat but not a mammal.

I have read many times that the mutation/s that define/s DF27 seems to be located in a tricky location and when it is not properly read during the test, FTDNA just states "presumed positive" if you happen to tick the boxes in other well known mutations below.

You would be the first case I know where they state "negative" for DF27 but positive for well known DF27's subclades.

In my case it was marked as "No call or heterozygous call" (And as I ignore how you could have an heterozygous call in a Y chromosome mutation, I assumed it was a no call). However I clearly belong to the DF27 branch because I am positive for a long list of mutations below it.

got it thanks. Correct, the SNP excel says "No call or heterozygous call" but the certificate said Negative on DF27...which mislead me

Webb
06-24-2019, 10:27 PM
got it thanks. Correct, the SNP excel says "No call or heterozygous call" but the certificate said Negative on DF27...which mislead me

At one point FTDNA used to charge extra to run DF27. I want to say the stand alone snp tests were 24.00 and DF27 was 42.00. Going off memory.

ArmandoR1b
06-24-2019, 11:40 PM
I think I3997-Lloma de Betxi (Paterna, Valencia-1.741 BC) is positive for Z195-The site is a non-walled village of the culture of the Ancient Valencian Bronze Age.
Yes it is. I'll update the table.



The important thing is that probably the Bronze Age in Iberia will be mostly R1b-P312 / Df27, that is to say all its cultures have turned out to be dominated by this haplogroup (El Argar, Las Motillas, Valencian Bronze, Bronze of the Northeast, Bronze of the Guadalquivir, Atlantic Bronze, Las Cogotas). This explains why the Iberian peoples of the Iron Age were also R1b-P312 and why currently 70% of Spanish men is R1b-
I agree and none of my posts have contradicted that. Not even my older posts prior to this thread. My contention has been about the region of origin of DF27 and not the frequency of it in Bronze Age Iberia or about the date of entry into Iberia.




Regarding BBs Df27 in Sicily, I see that you agree on an Iberian origin, I believe that no one can doubt it

I3123-BU31, grave 3031, cranium III- Skull, with the left portion of the frontal bone missing, extremely brachycephalic (“planoccipital”)- The skull sutures are open. Morphologically the individual is inferred to be a male. C14 dated to 2287-2044 calBCE (3760±30 BP, 138 PSUAMS-3892)- (2.165 BC)-
I8561-Abisso del Vento-C14 dated to 2346-2199 calBCE 298 (3825±20 BP, PSUAMS-4873) (2.272 AC)-

These individuals and also the other R1b-P312 negative for Df27 are colonists or Iberian traders mixed with Sicilian women

I made a mistake yesterday by using the Online Table 2 (14C dates) (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/03/21/584714/DC2/embed/media-2.xlsx?download=true) in the spreadsheet thinking that I could subtract the BP date from 1950 to get the calBCE. The information I needed was in Online Table 1 the whole time but I had missed it. So I see that the correct dates are 2287-2044 calBCE and 2346-2199 calBCE for those two. I also see that I3123 is Sicily_EBA3123 and is not a closer match to a mix of Sicily_MN and Bell_Beaker_Iberia_highsteppe but I8561 is. That helps prove an early entrance of Z195 into Iberia but does not prove that Z195 or the parent clade of DF27 was born in Iberia.



If you are Df27 you will understand why this discussion is so interesting for us, there are some cases of Iberian BBs that could be Df27, specifically one case in Humanejos and another in El Virgazal. Regarding the samplee that you mentioned EH001/EH002, from the site of El Hundido, they are very old and I do not know if anyone has checked if they have SNPs below Df27. The important thing is that, as we have many P312 in Iberia from the 25/24 century BC, those cases can be perfectly the parents of the Iberian Df27
Yes, as stated previously, I am positive for DF27. The correct IDs are EHU001 and EHU002. They can be the parents of the Iberian DF27 but not the parents of the first person to have the DF27 mutation. See the difference?

ArmandoR1b
06-24-2019, 11:48 PM
Castilla y León is going to finance a project to examine Vacceos, Vettones and Astures deposits. It is very interesting because they are going to try to demonstrate the genetic continuity with Las Cogotas culture (ie R1b-Df27). More interesting will be to check the linguistic implications of the results. Only in the city of Pintia we have more than 30 individuals (all children) to analyze

That is great news if they include Y-DNA next gen sequencing.

razyn
06-24-2019, 11:52 PM
At one point FTDNA used to charge extra to run DF27. I want to say the stand alone snp tests were 24.00 and DF27 was 42.00. Going off memory.

Vince Tilroe once explained the technical problem of testing for DF27, that made Thomas Krahn develop nested primers for it (to be sure the strand of double-helix DNA in question was tested both forward and back -- because that SNP is only visible in one direction). This was while Thomas still ran the FTDNA lab, before he and his wife established YSEQ. Anyway here is a link to Vince's explanation: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5027-R1b-M343-Backbone-SNP-Pack-FTDNA&p=98773&viewfull=1#post98773

Understanding it fully is a bit above my pay grade. But that's why they charged extra to test for DF27 (by Sanger sequencing) -- and why DF27 can't be forced to show up reliably on a chip test, that is by nature one-shot. NextGen sequencing that gives 46 heterozygous reads and 31 no-calls (at a locus that would, in its ancestral state, be homozygous) strongly suggests that the locus is in fact derived, for the elusive SNP one is trying to detect there. Other possibilities probably exist, but that would be the logical conclusion.

ArmandoR1b
06-25-2019, 12:05 AM
R.Rocca withdrew the L165 call for I8206 a month or so on a separate thread. I think this sample is still Z195/Z196, though. I’ll look for his post later today.

I found it here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16682-The-genomic-history-of-the-Iberian-Peninsula-over-the-past-8000-years&p=563517&highlight=I8206#post563517).

ArmandoR1b
06-25-2019, 01:12 AM
Here is an updated table of the DF27 samples from Iberia all found in Olalde et al. 2019. I8206 was removed because it is negative for Z195 and no read on DF27. I added I3997 because it is positive for R1b1a1a2a1a2a1 (Z195). It's still only 13 and the oldest is 2014–1781 cal BCE.




ID
Y-DNA (Rocca or study)
Date (Direct radiocarbon date on the individual calibrated at 2 sigma or date range based on the archaeological context)
Y-chr
Pop name
Cultural affiliation
Site
Country


I3756
8762842 = Z33440 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>A6387>BY61519
2014–1781 cal BCE (3565±25 BP, PSUAMS-2077)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA

Castillejo del Bonete, Terrinches, Ciudad Real, Castilla-La Mancha
Spain


I12209
21380200 = DF27-S250 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250
1368–1211 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1a2a1a2b1,xR1b1a 1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA
Cogotas I
La Requejada, San Román de Hornija, Valladolid, Castilla y León
Spain


I6470
19736631 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12
1753–1549 cal BCE (3375±35 BP, Poz-49177)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2b,xR1b1a1a2a1a2c,xR1b1a1 a2a1a2a1,xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA

Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos, Castilla y León
Spain


VAD001
DF27>Z225
1867–1616 cal BCE (3400±35 BP, Ua-36345)
R1b1a1a2a1a2a5
N_Iberia_BA

Valdescusa, Hervías, La Rioja
Spain


I1312_d
17922066 = Z195-S227 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S227
2000–1400 BCE [1930–1634 cal BCE (3465±60 BP, UBAR-697), 1867–1526 cal BCE (3370±50 BP, UBAR-670), 1736–1453 cal BCE (3305±55 BP, UBAR-671), 1877–1526 cal BCE (3380±60 BP, UBAR-672), four dates of the whole stratigraphy of the site]
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
NE_Iberia_BA

Can Roqueta II, Sabadell, Barcelona, Catalonia
Spain


I4563
R-M269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z198>PH1909 > BY36372
1700–1500 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
NE_Iberia_BA

Galls Carboners, Mont-ral, Tarragona, Catalonia
Spain


I3494
22024379 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>BY3332
1920–1753 cal BCE (3515±30 BP, CNA-1661.1.1)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
SE_Iberia_BA

Coveta del Frare, La Font de la Figuera, València/Valencia, Valencian Community
Spain


I3997
DF27>Z195
1864–1618 cal BCE (3400±40 BP, Beta-195318)
R1b1a1a2a1a2a1
SE_Iberia_BA

Lloma de Betxí, Paterna, València/Valencia, Valencian Community
Spain


I3324
7571621 S450-Z268 RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>S450
360–193 cal BCE (2190±20 BP, PSUAMS-2159)
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
E_Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Puig de Sant Andreu, Ullastret, Girona, Catalonia
Spain


I3320
DF27>Z225
300–100 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2a5
E_Iberia_IA
Iberian culture
Els Estrets de la Rata, Vilafamés, Castelló/Castellón, Valencian Community
Spain


I3582
8456571 = PF7595-Z211-S358 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>Z195/S355>Z272>S450>Z295/S1217>ZZ77>Z216
400–600 CE
R1b1a1a2a1a2
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE

El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


I3576
13681707 = BY35080 = RM269>P312/S116>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27/S250>ZZ12>BY3332>PH4023
408–538 cal CE (1595±25 BP, PSUAMS-2117)
R1b1a1a2a1a2
SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE

El Castillón, Montefrío, Granada, Andalusia
Spain


esp005.SG
DF27
1430–1410 BCE
R1b1a1a2a1a2a(xR1b1a1a2a1a2a5)
C_Iberia_BA.SG

Cueva de los Lagos, Aguilar de Alhama, La Rioja
Spain

ArmandoR1b
06-25-2019, 02:04 AM
Well I can be new in this forum, but I already have a lot of experience in this world of genetics and archeology, I participate in a Foundation that is dedicated to promoting genetic studies throughout Spain and the protection of the historical artistic heritage in Castilla y León ( including archaeological sites), so we can all learn things if we share our knowledge-The Foundation has good relations with similar institutions in Italy, France and some Hispanic countries such as Mexico. That is why it is also interesting to know the opinion of descendants of Spanish conquistadores or settlers in those countries. I guess those people will have different opinions about the origin of their Spanish lineages but what is undeniable is that the cultural and genetic relationship is huge.

I will try to read some of your posts, to understand what it is that has led you to be so convinced of a German ?, French? origin of Df27-In any case I think that locating the origin with exact geographic coordinates is going to be a very complicated matter, because the mobility of the prehistoric populations is amazing

I am not convinced of a German or French origin of DF27. I am convinced that is it highly unlikely that it was born in Iberia based on all of the data points.

1 - There is not a single case in western Europe of an ancient specimen positive for R-L51 or a downstream SNP prior to the Bronze Age even though R-L51 is much older than the Bronze Age.
2 - All of the Bronze Age western European specimens that tested positive for R-L51 or a downstream SNP also have Steppe autosomal DNA.
3 - Many of the Bronze Age western European specimens with Steppe autosomal DNA that were positive for R-L51 were also positive for R-P312.
4 - The first person with the mutation of R-P312 is a recent ancestor of the first person with the mutation of R-DF27. Since the R-P312 people are or recently descend from people from the east then the first person with R-DF27 could have been from the east or somewhere in western Europe prior to R-DF27 entering Iberia.
5 - There was an ancient Bronze Age specimen with Steppe autosomal DNA from Germany dated to 2431-2150 BC that is positive for R-DF27. That is the oldest R-DF27 there is.
6 - None of the non-Iberian Bronze Age specimens from western Europe with Steppe autosomal DNA and positive for R-L51 or a subclade have Iberian autosomal DNA. See Olalde et al. 2018.
7 - Germany is on the path from the Eurasian Steppe to Iberia.

There is no data currently that should lead a person to believe that the very first person born with the DF27 mutation lived in Iberia. If the western European BA specimens positive for R-P312 had Iberian autosomal DNA then I would think differently.


Regarding the scarcity of samples analyzed, this situation can affect Italy and even France, but not Spain, Germany or England. The abundance of data in those countries is enough to get a pretty good idea of ​​how events happened, although it is true that everyone interprets the data as best they know or can, and it is clear that we can not agree on everything
There are not enough ancient specimens with reads on DF27 and Z195 to state which modern country DF27 was born in. There is not an abundance of specimens with those SNPs from around 2500 BC - 2200 BC. There is an abundance of Bronze Age western European specimens positive for R-L51 and R-P312 that do not have any Iberian autosomal DNA. That is very telling.

MitchellSince1893
06-25-2019, 03:02 AM
A way to use the FTDNA data to ignore the British Isles testing bias is to compare the percentage differences between DF27 overall and its 2 main subclades. I've done this with U152 in the past
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?36-R1b-U152-Updates-News&p=155764&viewfull=1#post155764

I just started doing this on DF27 using the FTDNA numbers and I wanted to share a preliminary finding.

DF27 in England makes up 18.3% of the known DF27 locations in the FTDNA database (631 out of 3443 known locations are in England)


Z195 in England makes up 18.3% of known Z195 locations (320 out of 1744 known locations are in England)
ZZ12_1 in England makes up 18.6% of known ZZ12_1 locations (274 out of 1472 known locations are in England)

Essentially, there is little difference when comparing DF27 England percentage to the Z195 and ZZ12 England percentages.

If historic DF27 arrivals in England were primarily from Z195 or ZZ12, I would expect that haplogroup to above the overall average for DF27 in England. For example if DF27 in England was mostly from Z195, then one would expect Z195 in England to be above the DF27 average of 18.3%. So it appears that neither of these DF27 haplogroups is disproportionately represented in England in the FTDNA database.

MitchellSince1893
06-25-2019, 03:19 AM
In Spain it's a similar story to England. Not much difference between the DF27 percentages and the subclade percentages.
DF27 in Spain makes up 11.2% of the known DF27 locations in the FTDNA database (385 out of 3443 known locations are in Spain)

Z195 in Spain makes up 11.3% of known Z195 locations (197 out of 1744 known locations are in Spain)
ZZ12_1 in Spain makes up 10.5% of known ZZ12_1 locations (154 out of 1472 known locations are in Spain)

Similar pattern is seen in Mexico
DF27: 2.0%
Z195: 2.0%
Z12: 2.2%

In Portugal there is a significant difference. ZZ12 is above the average for DF27 in Portugal and Z195 is below.
DF27 in Portugal makes up 4.9% of the known DF27 locations in the FTDNA database (167 out of 3443 known locations are in Portugal)

Z195 in Portugal makes up 2.5% of known Z195 locations (43 out of 1744 known locations are in Portugal)
ZZ12_1 in Portugal makes up 7.6% of known ZZ12_1 locations (112 out of 1472 known locations are in Portugal)

The pattern for Portugal is also seen in Brazil
DF27 0.6%
Z195 0.2%
ZZ12_1 1.0%

In France it's the opposite. Z195 is above the DF27 average and ZZ12 is below
DF27: 9.3%
Z195: 12.3%
ZZ12: 5.8%

Ireland
DF27: 7.9%
Z195: 5.6%
ZZ12: 10.9%

N. Ireland
DF27: 1.6%
Z195: 1.1%
ZZ12: 2.2%

Scotland
DF27: 7.8%
Z195: 9.5%
ZZ12: 6.0%
(Interesting that N. Ireland is more similar to Ireland than Scotland i.e. ZZ12 in more common in Ireland and Northern Ireland, and Z195 is more common in Scotland)

Germany
DF27: 6.0%
Z195: 7.9%
ZZ12: 3.7%

Netherlands, Belgium & Luxembourg
DF27: 2.1%
Z195: 2.5%
ZZ12: 1.8%

Italy
DF27: 1.8%
Z195: 2.1%
ZZ12: 1.2%

Sweden
DF27: 1.7%
Z195: 1.6%
ZZ12: 1.8%

Switzerland
DF27: 1.7%
Z195: 1.7%
ZZ12: 1.5%

Wales
DF27: 1.2%
Z195: 0.7%
ZZ12: 1.0%

MitchellSince1893
06-25-2019, 04:27 AM
Here is a map of the results

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/33/6d/70336daa7ab710347da36c7ef4abc374.png

Hilerno
06-25-2019, 06:55 AM
I am not convinced of a German or French origin of DF27. I am convinced that is it highly unlikely that it was born in Iberia based on all of the data points.

1 - There is not a single case in western Europe of an ancient specimen positive for R-L51 or a downstream SNP prior to the Bronze Age even though R-L51 is much older than the Bronze Age.
2 - All of the Bronze Age western European specimens that tested positive for R-L51 or a downstream SNP also have Steppe autosomal DNA.
3 - Many of the Bronze Age western European specimens with Steppe autosomal DNA that were positive for R-L51 were also positive for R-P312.
4 - The first person with the mutation of R-P312 is a recent ancestor of the first person with the mutation of R-DF27. Since the R-P312 people are or recently descend from people from the east then the first person with R-DF27 could have been from the east or somewhere in western Europe prior to R-DF27 entering Iberia.
5 - There was an ancient Bronze Age specimen with Steppe autosomal DNA from Germany dated to 2431-2150 BC that is positive for R-DF27. That is the oldest R-DF27 there is.
6 - None of the non-Iberian Bronze Age specimens from western Europe with Steppe autosomal DNA and positive for R-L51 or a subclade have Iberian autosomal DNA. See Olalde et al. 2018.
7 - Germany is on the path from the Eurasian Steppe to Iberia.

There is no data currently that should lead a person to believe that the very first person born with the DF27 mutation lived in Iberia. If the western European BA specimens positive for R-P312 had Iberian autosomal DNA then I would think differently.


There are not enough ancient specimens with reads on DF27 and Z195 to state which modern country DF27 was born in. There is not an abundance of specimens with those SNPs from around 2500 BC - 2200 BC. There is an abundance of Bronze Age western European specimens positive for R-L51 and R-P312 that do not have any Iberian autosomal DNA. That is very telling.

I think that for now, going to discuss the exact origin of Df27 is a sterile discussion, because we do not have conclusive evidence in one way or another, but certainly, my opinion is different from yours.

What I consider most interesting is the work that MitchellSince has done to try to classify Df27 and its subclades

Shadogowah
06-25-2019, 07:36 AM
I don't understand what Mitchell tries to clarify. How do you remove the British Isles bias looking at that difference?

Hilerno
06-25-2019, 07:38 AM
Here is a map of the results

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/33/6d/70336daa7ab710347da36c7ef4abc374.png

Great job Mitchell-These data are very interesting, first because it seems that Z195 and ZZ12 have different patterns of migration and may have different geographical origins. At the moment the oldest cases of ancient Z112 and Z195 are in Iberia

I3756-ZZ12-Castillejo del Bonete (Terrinches, Ciudad Real)-1.897 BC- The Deposit is a ceremonial cave oriented to the sunrise (a kind of solar monument) with an age superior to 2,500 BC, and clearly linked to the Iberian BBs (in Iberia this culture extended until the 17th BC when it was transformed into the culture of Las Cogotas)
I3494-ZZ12-Coveta del Frare (La Font de la Figuera, Valencia)-1.836 BC-Four dolichocephalic individuals buried in a natural cave
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260293782_Los_restos_humanos_de_la_Coveta_del_Frar e_La_Font_de_la_Figuera_Valencia

The first conclusion we can draw is that ZZ12 was spread throughout the Iberian Peninsula (east and west) from the chalcolithic

Regarding Z195

I1312d- Can Roqueta-1.782 BC
I3397-Lloma de Betxí (Paterna, Valencia)-1.741 BC
I4563-Galls Carboners (Tarragona)-1.600 BC

They are deposits of the Ancient Valencian/Catalan Bronze Age, and at the moment Z195 has not appeared in the western half of the peninsula, therefore it is fundamentally Mediterranean and Pyrenean-In addition our Sicilians friends, are Z195, then we can imagine a migration from the Iberian Mediterranean coast to the western Mediterranean islands. Surely we will find more cases of Z195 in the south of France, Italy, Corsica, Sardinia and even northern Morocco during the period of expansion of the BB culture
In addition, these patterns are repeated in the current population with Z195 being more Mediterranean and Pyrenean and ZZ12 and its subclades more western (Asturias, Galicia, Portugal, Castilla and León).

We are very far from knowing how Df27 expanded throughout Europe, but I believe that there was a first expansion of ZZ12 linked to the Atlantic Bronze (swords and halberds-Atlantic type) by the Atlantic facade arriving in Ireland which may explain why the Irish are more ZZ12 than Z195. Regarding Z195, everything will depend on the antiquity of its subclades in the different regions of Europe. I see a difficult expansion towards the north during the Bronze Age and the Iron Age because the migratory patterns in these periods of time seem to be produced from north to south and not vice versa. Therefore we can not rule out that there are very old subclades of Z195 in France and even Germany

In any case I suppose that each individual or subclade of Df27 will have its own migratory history, some will be older (BB culture/Bronze Age) and others more modern (Roman Empire, Celts)

Ruderico
06-25-2019, 08:39 AM
Regarding Pintia, the truth is that there are not many surprises expected, even in the autosomal component, because the genetic continuity is amazing in Iberia (taking into account our history). Do you expect to find something relevant in an autosomal study of vacceos or vettones? after all, are peoples very similar to the Lusitanians. Is there any study on this in Portugal?

As far as I know there are no such studies being done in Portugal. We have the issue that our soils, particularly in the north, are very acidic because there's so much granite going around, so bones get deteorated quickly

The main reason I'd like to see more Iron Age samples form Iberia is so we can try to see how different or similar each group was, but going by the Olalde2019 results I have the feeling the differences aren't going to be very significant - IE-speaking individuals weren't particularly more steppe-shifted than others, it might be simply a matter of geography, ie groups closer to France tended to be more similar to other West Europeans

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WGEtGHSDOXiA4XGpC59TLPIB6OITjVl9iuzMR9ybyxc/edit#gid=1532186826


On the other hand it seems Portuguese and Galicians tend to share more DNA with West Euros than the rest of Iberian do - besides extra North African - possibly because we're less Basque-like (ironically I'm very "Spanish" in this regard)..so I'm interested to know if this was a consequence of Suebi settlement in the north, and subsequent repopulation during the Reconquista, or whether this was something that happened earlier
https://i.postimg.cc/Vv90c9nB/admixturek7.png

Hilerno
06-25-2019, 11:30 AM
As far as I know there are no such studies being done in Portugal. We have the issue that our soils, particularly in the north, are very acidic because there's so much granite going around, so bones get deteorated quickly

The main reason I'd like to see more Iron Age samples form Iberia is so we can try to see how different or similar each group was, but going by the Olalde2019 results I have the feeling the differences aren't going to be very significant - IE-speaking individuals weren't particularly more steppe-shifted than others, it might be simply a matter of geography, ie groups closer to France tended to be more similar to other West Europeans

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WGEtGHSDOXiA4XGpC59TLPIB6OITjVl9iuzMR9ybyxc/edit#gid=1532186826


On the other hand it seems Portuguese and Galicians tend to share more DNA with West Euros than the rest of Iberian do - besides extra North African - possibly because we're less Basque-like (ironically I'm very "Spanish" in this regard)..so I'm interested to know if this was a consequence of Suebi settlement in the north, and subsequent repopulation during the Reconquista, or whether this was something that happened earlier
https://i.postimg.cc/Vv90c9nB/admixturek7.png

Taking into account the results of the Iberians and the Tartessians, the truth is that nobody expect that vacceos, astures cantabros, vettones, even lusitanians to be different. That is to say, they are all going to be overwhelmingly P312 / Df27 and autosomically very similar to the Iberians. The archaeological/cultural continuity between the Bb culture / Cogotas culture/ Soto de Medinilla culture / Vettones and vacceos, I believe that it is sufficiently demonstrated, therefore the Celtization of the peoples of the Castilian Plateau was very late due to the influence of the Celtiberians (III-II century BC) and only in view of the common danger of the Romans and Carthaginians did they become aware of their racial and cultural unity- That is, the common interest to survive united them and allowed them to make defensive alliances (Lusitanians, vettones, carpetanos, vacceos) and later celtiberians, astures and cántabros)

Indeed there is a north/south gradient of Indo-Europeanization, which I believe that more than the Suebi can be attributed to the Celts (Arévacos, beribraces, titos, belos etc) and the Urnifield culture, I do not think the Suebi left a lot of traces in Spain, as it seems to have happened with the Goths.

Regarding the extra African component in Galicia and Portugal, the truth is that it is surprising because Galicia was never occupied by the Moors, or it was briefly. After the Olalde's results, it would be interesting to verify what subclades or percentages of E1b and J2 correspond to the Moors and which to the Visigoths / Romans / Greeks. I would never have thought that the Goths in their European migrations would recruit these haplogroups (In the Balkans or Greece, where they seem to have been?) If this happened with the Goths, I suppose it would be the same with the Suebi, Vándalos and Alanos- That is, from the first century onwards, all the cultures or peoples would already be a mixture of many different haplogroups.

Ruderico
06-25-2019, 12:06 PM
Regarding the extra African component in Galicia and Portugal, the truth is that it is surprising because Galicia was never occupied by the Moors, or it was briefly. After the Olalde's results, it would be interesting to verify what subclades or percentages of E1b and J2 correspond to the Moors and which to the Visigoths / Romans / Greeks. I would never have thought that the Goths in their European migrations would recruit these haplogroups (In the Balkans or Greece, where they seem to have been?) If this happened with the Goths, I suppose it would be the same with the Suebi, Vándalos and Alanos- That is, from the first century onwards, all the cultures or peoples would already be a mixture of many different haplogroups.

Well, we've known that for a few years now, and I think the Olalde paper gave us a big clue as why that is. Considering it was already present in levels twice or thrice as high as it is today amongs certain regions in the south, it's definitely something that has been in the peninsula way before any Islamic invasion took place. It could have come from north African migrants/colonisers during the Roman period, Pheonicians/Carthaginians or perhaps even Tartessian descendants. Hypothetically they could have had a partially north African origin, and after the kingdom collapsed after the fall of Tyre in the 500s its descendants (assuming that's what Turdetani and Turduli were, which we do not know) moved west and along the Atlantic coastline - which we know the Turduli did.
I think the Carthaginian and/or Roman hypothesis make more sense, though.


On the Suebi, they did not wander in SE Europe, so I expect them to be much more North Euro genetically than these Visigoths were. I do not know if they were very relevant or not (some models seem to say they were moderately important in the west) but if they were not then we need another source to explain why Galicians/Portuguese seem to have this profile...and that doesn't leave us with many options because Celticisation of NW Iberia was very late and rather incomplete when compared to the Meseta. Unless the Atlantic Bronze culture had some sort of genetic impact, but that is highly speculative

Hilerno
06-25-2019, 12:25 PM
Well, we've known that for a few years now, and I think the Olalde paper gave us a big clue as why that is. Considering it was already present in levels twice or thrice as high as it is today amongs certain regions in the south, it's definitely something that has been in the peninsula way before any Islamic invasion took place. It could have come from north African migrants/colonisers during the Roman period, Pheonicians/Carthaginians or perhaps even Tartessian descendants. Hypothetically they could have had a partially north African origin, and after the kingdom collapsed after the fall of Tyre in the 500s its descendants (assuming that's what Turdetani and Turduli were, which we do not know) moved west and along the Atlantic coastline - which we know the Turduli did.
I think the Carthaginian and/or Roman hypothesis make more sense, though.

Regarding the Tartessians, at the moment the only samples we have (which belong to the so-called orientalizing phase, that is to say, influenced by Phoenician/Greek trade) are typically Iberian (R1b-P312 and Mit Hap-H) . Anyway in "El Turuñuelo" has been found at the moment, one skeleton that is being analyzed and although we do not know if it is a Tartesian or an invader/enemy, it can give us clues about the destruction of the Tartessian culture.

https://www.eldiario.es/eldiarioex/cultura/yacimiento-Turunuelo-hallazgo-arqueologico-decenio_0_847966026.html

That is, we will see what happens with the results that have to be published in Italy, including the samples of Rome, but it seems clear that this African component already existed in Iberia long before the Moors, the complicated thing is to take it to Portugal and Galicia because they are not especially Romanized regions except for the settlements of veterans of the legions (Emerita Augusta, Legio, Asturica Augusta, Lucus Agusti, Brácara etc)- Maybe those legionaries are the key because they would be volunteers from many regions of the Empire-

We know that Anibal married a Carpetanian or Oretanian Princess (I do not remember), but I do not believe that the Carthaginians genetically influenced the Iberian gene pool

jaumemiquel
06-25-2019, 06:07 PM
There's one thing we can all agree with, The continuity of conquering by the P312 linages. The same ancestors that swept through Europe with the Yamanyas (R1b-P312) later conquered the Americas with their offsprings.

ArmandoR1b
06-26-2019, 04:51 AM
Regarding the samplee that you mentioned EH001/EH002, from the site of El Hundido, they are very old and I do not know if anyone has checked if they have SNPs below Df27.

I processed the file of EHU002 and uploaded the Y-DNA results as an XLSX file to https://bit.ly/2KF8XyC I used the program here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17269-BAM-Analysis-Kit-(Windows-and-Linux)-New-release&p=572561&viewfull=1#post572561) then I got the longhand names with the program I created at https://bit.ly/2NeMkTR

In order for a positive read to be accurate the upstream SNPs can't be negative. EHU002 definitely does not have read on DF27 or Z195. Any SNPs downstream from DF27 that do have a read are negative such as Z272 and Z225.

You can do what I did by going to https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena then searching on the specimen ID then downloading the BAM then running the BAM Analysis Kit then the Complete SNPs program.

EHU001 is at https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/search?query=EHU001

Hilerno
06-26-2019, 08:44 AM
I processed the file of EHU002 and uploaded the Y-DNA results as an XLSX file to https://bit.ly/2KF8XyC I used the program here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17269-BAM-Analysis-Kit-(Windows-and-Linux)-New-release&p=572561&viewfull=1#post572561) then I got the longhand names with the program I created at https://bit.ly/2NeMkTR

In order for a positive read to be accurate the upstream SNPs can't be negative. EHU002 definitely does not have read on DF27 or Z195. Any SNPs downstream from DF27 that do have a read are negative such as Z272 and Z225.

You can do what I did by going to https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena then searching on the specimen ID then downloading the BAM then running the BAM Analysis Kit then the Complete SNPs program.

EHU001 is at https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/search?query=EHU001

The important thing about modern science is that knowledge has been democratized, not only geneticists and professional biochemists can elaborate theories and draw conclusions, we can also do it and thus progress will always be guaranteed. That is why it is important that independent people are able to process those BAM files and disclose their findings. Whatever our preferences, we will all have to accept sooner or later those facts that are irrefutable.

I have already read some of your posts and it seems that you have made clear in this thread (and in others) your opinion about Df27 (and also P312, L51 etc), that is to say that it is highly unlikely that they have Iberian origin. I have already said that at the moment, what I see is a very old antiquity of this lineage in Iberia, that its expansion is linked to the Bell Beaker culture and that the fact that both ZZ12 and Z195 have been abundantly documented in the Bronze Age means that we are seeing a massive founder effect with the subsequent disappearance of several old Iberian Mesolithic/Neolithic lineages such as C1a2/H2

It is true that we do not have to focus only on Iberia, because France is also important in this debate, but it is unlikely that both ZZ12 and Z195 have different origins, although obviously they may have followed different paths of expansion. Regarding the data in current populations, the American companies have much more data than us and their sequencing processes are very good, so they can analyze better than us the subclades that occur in people of English, French or German origin, and what is more important, the antiquity of those subclades. Some of them will be exclusive to the isles, northern Europe and even North America.

razyn
06-26-2019, 06:28 PM
I don't know whether this will be an addition to our shared information pool, or a subtraction from it. Anyway, it's a thing, and it's new (posted June 14, 2019). So I might as well mention it here as anywhere: https://phylogeographer.com/r-df27-and-pas-de-calais/

The author of this blog, Hunter Provyn, is admin of an FTDNA haplogroup project for J-M241 and its subclades. He's trying to solve migration riddles via software engineering. I'm not sure that's a good idea, but it's certainly one I haven't pursued, and couldn't if I wanted to.

Hilerno
06-26-2019, 06:47 PM
EHU002-El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos- (2.434 BC)- is R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1e?, positive for SNPs S470 and Z251, that is downstream R1b-L21, right?, or do I miss something?

Hilerno
06-26-2019, 07:33 PM
EL Hundido-

Tomb I- was located in the corridor of the collective tomb building an oval shaped cist where a man of more than 55 years and 1.83 of stature with Southeast-Northwest orientation in fetal position was buried, left lateral decubitus with arms flexed and collected against the chest with the hands next to the face. A Ciempozuelos style campaniform beaker, a Palmela spearhead facing north, a bone tip and a sphere of pyrite found in nearby deposits of Sierra de la Demanda were deposited as funerary trousseau.

Tomb II-was located in the northern area of ​​the collective burial chamber where a man over 45 years of age was buried who appears to have been placed in a fetal position in a right lateral decubitus position and with NO-SE orientation. A Ciempozuelos style casserole, a copper awl and a V perforated button have been recovered from the funeral trousseau. The Ciempozuelos casserole presents a complex and original radial design of printed motifs alternating between the spokes of the upper area of ​​the hull, interrupted by concentric motifs in the union between the body and the base and decoration around the small flat bottom. The incised decorative motifs are collected by R. Garrido (2000 fig 46-47) for the Ciempozuelos style of the plateau, but alternated with printed motifs of a type similar to those described by A. Alday (1.995-155) for the Ebro valley. The Palmela spearhead is atypical because although the leaf follows the usual model, the wide peduncle of rectangular section (10 mm) is more typical of a tongue dagger with what looks like a hybrid between Palmela point and dagger, model already described previously in the Ebro valley, specifically in the Obioneta dolmen (Realengo de Aralar, Navarra) and in Los Husos (Álava). The V-perforated button is of the conical type, which together with the hemispherical type forms the Bohemian-Moravian type (Barge-Mahieu, 1.991-8) and other similar buttons have been recovered in the dolmen of Las Arnillas (Moradillo de Sedano, G. Delibes, 1986, fig 12), in the dolmen del Virgazal (Tablada de Rudrón, J. Campillo, 1985, fig 12-4) in the dolmen of Mina de Farangortea (Artajona, Navarra) and in the dolmen of Peña Guerra (Cameros, La Rioja).

Tomb III was located in the southern area of ​​the burial chamber, and contains the remains of a man over 50 years of age and 1.76 meters tall.

The three individuals are brachycephalic, broad or short jaw and have strong muscle impressions in the long bones that denote high physical activity in both the upper and lower extremities.

These gentlemen are the first P312 found in Spain (2.434 BC) and the archaeologists give us very interesting data, because although they were buried with Ciempozuelos type pottery (only existing in Spain) and with Palmela style spearheads, the buttons are equal to those of Bohemia and the shape of the dagger is identical to some of Brittany. We also know that they were very tall and that they were not riding, because of the great wear on the Achilles tendon that indicates long walks in mountainous terrain

It seems that France can be the solution to the mystery

Webb
06-26-2019, 08:24 PM
I don't know whether this will be an addition to our shared information pool, or a subtraction from it. Anyway, it's a thing, and it's new (posted June 14, 2019). So I might as well mention it here as anywhere: https://phylogeographer.com/r-df27-and-pas-de-calais/

The author of this blog, Hunter Provyn, is admin of an FTDNA haplogroup project for J-M241 and its subclades. He's trying to solve migration riddles via software engineering. I'm not sure that's a good idea, but it's certainly one I haven't pursued, and couldn't if I wanted to.

Pas-de-Calais is very French.

rms2
06-26-2019, 08:34 PM
I don't know whether this will be an addition to our shared information pool, or a subtraction from it. Anyway, it's a thing, and it's new (posted June 14, 2019). So I might as well mention it here as anywhere: https://phylogeographer.com/r-df27-and-pas-de-calais/

The author of this blog, Hunter Provyn, is admin of an FTDNA haplogroup project for J-M241 and its subclades. He's trying to solve migration riddles via software engineering. I'm not sure that's a good idea, but it's certainly one I haven't pursued, and couldn't if I wanted to.

Doubtful, IMHO. It's based on modern y-dna. Now that we have ancient y-dna, there's no real good reason to put much stock in such things. It's like a throwback to 2010 and the old dna forums.

I believe the most ancient DF27 we have is SGBR Beaker man I0806 from Quedlinburg, Germany, and I'll bet his DF27 founding ancestor came from somewhere well east of that.

ArmandoR1b
06-26-2019, 10:19 PM
EHU002-El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos- (2.434 BC)- is R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1e?, positive for SNPs S470 and Z251, that is downstream R1b-L21, right?, or do I miss something?

I had already explained that in order for a positive read to be accurate the upstream SNPs can't be negative. See here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17377-DF27-Z195-DF17-IN-IBERIA-AND-WESTERN-EUROPE&p=577158&viewfull=1#post577158). If you change the filter of the column name Positive to include No then you will see that EHU002 is negative for L21 therefore the positive read for Z251/S470 is a false positive due to DNA damage.

ArmandoR1b
06-26-2019, 11:07 PM
Doubtful, IMHO. It's based on modern y-dna. Now that we have ancient y-dna, there's no real good reason to put much stock in such things. It's like a throwback to 2010 and the old dna forums.

I believe the most ancient DF27 we have is SGBR Beaker man I0806 from Quedlinburg, Germany, and I'll bet his DF27 founding ancestor came from somewhere well east of that.

I agree that ancient specimens using C14 dating and both Y-DNA and autosomal DNA is the only way to resolve this but it sure is frustrating how often specimens don't have reads of DF27 and Z195 due to DNA damage and that there are too few specimens. EHU002 would be the oldest if it had a read of DF27 and turned out to be positive since it is dated to 2562–2306 cal BCE. The more important fact is that the DF27 specimen from Quedlinburg is from about the same and does not have Iberian autosomal DNA and neither do the rest of the German, French, Netherlanders, and British from the same period that are all R-P312 or R-L51 without a read on R-P312. There are about 23 non-Iberian BB specimens that don't have a read on DF27.

ArmandoR1b
06-26-2019, 11:16 PM
Here is a table of the non-Iberian Bell Beaker Bronze Age specimens that are potentially positive for DF27 if there had been no DNA damage. I haven't looked at their BAM files to verify that there is not a downstream SNP that they are positive for. They are from Olalde et al. 2018 Scroll to the right to see the burial location and country. Since none of them have autosomal DNA from Iberia they don't have ancestry from Iberia.

edit: Specimens from the Isles aren't included since they are extremely unlikely to be positive for DF27.




ID
Y haplogroup-ISOGG version 11.110 (21 April 2016)
Terminal SNP or equivalent
SNPs in autosomes
Label1
Label2
Date (95% CI)
Location
Country


I4069
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
721500
BB_The_Netherlands
BB_Netherlands_Tui
2188–1887 calBCE (3640±50 BP, GrA-6477)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I4073
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
761432
BB_The_Netherlands
BB_Netherlands_Tui
2196–1903 calBCE (3660±50 BP, GrA-15598)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I2478
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
622069
BB_Northern_Italy
BB_Italy_Par
2200–1930 calBCE (3671±40 BP, LTL-5035A)
via Guidorossi, Parma
Italy


RISE98.SG
R1b1a1a2a1a1
M405
1089349

Nordic_LN.SG
2275-2032 calBCE (3736±32 BP, OxA-28987)
L Beddinge
Sweden


I4074
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
775215
BB_The_Netherlands
BB_Netherlands_Tui
2278–1914 calBCE (3690±60 BP, GrA-15597)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I4145
R1b1a1a2
M269
123001
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Czech_CBO
2279–2033 calBCE (3740±35 BP, Poz-84460)
Kněževes
Czech Republic


I3607
R1b1a1a
P297
10064
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAV
2300 BCE
Künzing-Bruck, Lkr. Deggendorf, Bavaria
Germany


I3599
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
36524
BB_Central_Europe

2300–2150 BCE
Alburg-Lerchenhaid, Spedition Häring, Stkr. Straubing, Bavaria
Germany


I3588
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
428761
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAV
2300–2150 BCE
Alburg-Lerchenhaid, Spedition Häring, Stkr. Straubing, Bavaria
Germany


I1381
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
690979
BB_Central_Europe
BB_France_Mon
2400–1900 BCE
Mondelange, PAC de la Sente, Moselle
France


I1382
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
607837
BB_Central_Europe
BB_France_Mon
2435–2136 calBCE (3805±35 BP, GrA-4468)
Mondelange, PAC de la Sente, Moselle
France


I1388
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
375748
BB_Southern_France
BB_France_Mar
2456–2135 calBCE (3805±40 BP, Lyon-3099)
Marlens, Sur les Barmes, Haute-Savoie
France


I1530
R1b1a1a2
M269
32225
BB_Central_Europe

2458–2140 calBCE (3818±48 BP, Er-8715)
Rothenschirmbach
Germany


E09568_d
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
32968
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAV
2461–2210 calBCE (3860±25 BP, MAMS-18918)
Hugo-Eckener-Straße (Augsburg)
Germany


I0805
R1b1a1a2
M269
225361
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_SAN
2467–2142 calBCE (3839±55 BP, Er-8558)
Quedlinburg
Germany


I1389
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
97913
BB_Central_Europe

2468–2278 calBCE [2481–2289 calBCE (3935±35 BP, Poz-41229); 2468–2278 calBCE (3925±30 BP, Poz-41228)]
Sierentz, Les Villas d'Aurele, Haut-Rhin
France


RISE564.SG
R1b1a1a2a1
L51
91035
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAVm
2500–2000 BCE
Osterhofen-Altenmarkt
Germany


I4178
R1b1a1a2
M269
587361
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Hungary_HUN
2500–2200 BCE
Szigetszentmiklós,Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő
Hungary


I1390
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
449568
BB_Central_Europe
BB_France_HAR
2566–2299 calBCE [2566–2524 calBCE (3910±35 BP, Poz-41227); 2489–2299 calBCE (3875±35 BP, Poz-41226)]
Sierentz, Les Villas d'Aurele, Haut-Rhin
France


I4253
R1b1a1a2
M269
452974
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Poland_Sam
2571–2208 calBCE (3920±60 BP, Ki-7929)
Samborzec
Poland


I4144
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
271735
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAVm
2572–2512 calBCE (3955±35 BP, Poz-84553)
Osterhofen-Altenmarkt
Germany


I4132
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
223736
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAVm
2800–1800 BCE
Augsburg
Germany


I4251
R1b1a1a2
M269
80714
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Poland_Sam
2837–2672 calBCE (3990±60 BP, Ki-7926)
Samborzec
Poland

Webb
06-26-2019, 11:56 PM
I have the master spreadsheet of every sample at work. There were a number of Scottish samples that calls were only made at the P312 level or slightly above. Bummer.

ArmandoR1b
06-27-2019, 12:04 AM
I have the master spreadsheet of every sample at work. There were a number of Scottish samples that calls were only made at the P312 level or slightly above. Bummer.

I had removed the specimens from the Isles since they are mostly L21 and unlikely to be positive for DF27. I forgot to mention that.

Webb
06-27-2019, 12:33 AM
The L165 cluster and the Douglas/Sutherland clusters have been my pet project for some time.

ArmandoR1b
06-27-2019, 12:50 AM
The L165 cluster and the Douglas/Sutherland clusters have been my pet project for some time.

You have a point. Since L165 is not very much younger than DF27 and Z195 it is possible that it first appeared between 2,500 BC - 2,000 BC which is the low end of the C14 dates of many of the oldest specimens and the Sicilian Z195 specimens are dated to 2287-2044 calBCE and 2346-2199 calBCE so we know Z195 is at least that old. However, the DF27 in Iberia isn't going to be from the Isles. The DF27 that went into Iberia would likely be from Germany or France or both so I am going to continue using just the continental specimens.

ArmandoR1b
06-27-2019, 12:54 AM
I found out that I had the table from the pre-print of Olalde et al. 2018. The official publication of Olalde et al. 2018 has 41 continental non-Iberian Bell Beaker Bronze Age specimens that are potentially positive for DF27. I'll make the table later. Then I can see if any of them have a negative read for DF27 and/or Z195.

razyn
06-27-2019, 04:40 AM
I found out that I had the table from the pre-print of Olalde et al. 2018. The official publication of Olalde et al. 2018 has 41 continental non-Iberian Bell Beaker Bronze Age specimens that are potentially positive for DF27. I'll make the table later. Then I can see if any of them have a negative read for DF27 and/or Z195.

In case my list from the Olalde paper (print version) is of any help, I posted it in Feb. last year -- and a month later copied it to a different thread, after that one was shut down by moderators. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=361750&viewfull=1#post361750

ArmandoR1b
06-27-2019, 01:38 PM
In case my list from the Olalde paper (print version) is of any help, I posted it in Feb. last year -- and a month later copied it to a different thread, after that one was shut down by moderators. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=361750&viewfull=1#post361750Thanks, I plan on including specimens without a call for P312 and even if they don't have a call for L51, L151, or L52 since no calls on those mean they could still be positive for DF27. E09568 is derived for R-L52 and R-P311 but ancestral for R-L151 and R-S1159 so I hope to remember to exclude him. I didn't remember to exclude him in the last table.

razyn
06-27-2019, 05:29 PM
Thanks, I plan on including specimens without a call for P312 and even if they don't have a call for L51, L151, or L52 since no calls on those mean they could still be positive for DF27. E09568 is derived for R-L52 and R-P311 but ancestral for R-L151 and R-S1159 so I hope to remember to exclude him. I didn't remember to exclude him in the last table.

So your list will be longer anyway, just thought I'd refresh that in case it had any commentary you had missed. Btw my assumption (back then) that these guys were U152- was not correct, because the aDNA tests weren't detecting U152 itself. We only know about a bunch of the earliest ones, e.g. around Prague, because they were all L2, and apparently that is reliably detected. But U152* (or some other U152 subclade) may have gone undetected, and may be hiding among our "potential DF27" lists.

Webb
06-27-2019, 07:26 PM
These four samples interest me as they were tested negative for L21.



I6539
Hume 5A, 4552
Tooth
M
T2b3+151
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
402250
1240k capture
This study
Bones/Teeth
No
1
half

Beaker Iberia
BK_Spain_MAD2
Yes
2500–2000 BCE
Humanejos, Madrid
Hum
40.22
-3.76
Spain





I7570
3043
Petrous
M
T2b4+152
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
776944
1240k capture
This study
Bones/Teeth
No
1
half

England_MBA
Yes
1735–1531 calBCE (3347±30 BP, SUERC-74471)
Baston and Langtoft, South Lincolnshire, England
52.6963
-0.34
Great Britain




I7571
OVE08 feature 1437 skeleton 8389
Petrous
M
J1c1
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
772247
1240k capture
This study
Bones/Teeth
No
1
half

England_MBA
Yes
1448–1259 calBCE (3100±40 BP, SUERC-28364)
Over Narrows, Needingworth Quarry, England
52.34
0.03
Great Britain




I2860
GENSCOT66
Petrous
M
H5a1
R1b1a1a2a1a2(xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
830544
1240k capture
This study
Bones/Teeth
No
1
half

Scotland_LBA
Yes
969–815 calBCE (2738±29 BP, SUERC-68715)
Covesea Cave 2, Moray, Scotland
57.721
-3.3881
Great Britain

Webb
06-27-2019, 07:28 PM
Well that didn't come out as planned!!!

ArmandoR1b
06-27-2019, 10:38 PM
Well that didn't come out as planned!!!

What is different from how you wanted it to come out?

Webb
06-27-2019, 11:01 PM
What is different from how you wanted it to come out?

I’ve never copied from a spreadsheet before.

ArmandoR1b
06-27-2019, 11:25 PM
I’ve never copied from a spreadsheet before.

But was there something you wanted to show up that didn't or did you want the table to look different or is it something else that didn't come out as planned?

GoldenHind
06-27-2019, 11:27 PM
Most importantly, is it accurate?

Webb
06-27-2019, 11:29 PM
But was there something you wanted to show up that didn't or did you want the table to look different or is it something else that didn't come out as planned?

Most of it showed up. Enough, I think. There are a large number of samples stat are P312 or slightly higher snps. These four were interesting as they are not L21.

Webb
06-27-2019, 11:33 PM
Most importantly, is it accurate?


It’s directly from the master spreadsheet that was a supplement in the Olalde paper. It includes his samples plus many others. I think Reich must have tested L21 and L2. It has every BB sample from Britain to Czech. It also has the Neolithic samples. I think over 100 total.

ArmandoR1b
06-28-2019, 12:44 AM
Most of it showed up. Enough, I think. .


There are a large number of samples stat are P312 or slightly higher snps.
Can you reword that because I didn't understand it?


These four were interesting as they are not L21.
I6539 does not have a read for DF27, Z195, and U152. I see the negative read of L21 using BAK. I consider I6539 would most likely be positive for DF27 if there had been no decay since it is from Madrid, Spain. I had mentioned I6539 in post #62 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17377-DF27-Z195-DF17-IN-IBERIA-AND-WESTERN-EUROPE&p=576412&viewfull=1#post576412).

I will look at those other three another day.

Hilerno
06-29-2019, 05:32 PM
Here is a table of the non-Iberian Bell Beaker Bronze Age specimens that are potentially positive for DF27 if there had been no DNA damage. I haven't looked at their BAM files to verify that there is not a downstream SNP that they are positive for. They are from Olalde et al. 2018 Scroll to the right to see the burial location and country. Since none of them have autosomal DNA from Iberia they don't have ancestry from Iberia.

edit: Specimens from the Isles aren't included since they are extremely unlikely to be positive for DF27.




ID
Y haplogroup-ISOGG version 11.110 (21 April 2016)
Terminal SNP or equivalent
SNPs in autosomes
Label1
Label2
Date (95% CI)
Location
Country


I4069
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
721500
BB_The_Netherlands
BB_Netherlands_Tui
2188–1887 calBCE (3640±50 BP, GrA-6477)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I4073
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
761432
BB_The_Netherlands
BB_Netherlands_Tui
2196–1903 calBCE (3660±50 BP, GrA-15598)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I2478
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
622069
BB_Northern_Italy
BB_Italy_Par
2200–1930 calBCE (3671±40 BP, LTL-5035A)
via Guidorossi, Parma
Italy


RISE98.SG
R1b1a1a2a1a1
M405
1089349

Nordic_LN.SG
2275-2032 calBCE (3736±32 BP, OxA-28987)
L Beddinge
Sweden


I4074
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
775215
BB_The_Netherlands
BB_Netherlands_Tui
2278–1914 calBCE (3690±60 BP, GrA-15597)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I4145
R1b1a1a2
M269
123001
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Czech_CBO
2279–2033 calBCE (3740±35 BP, Poz-84460)
Kněževes
Czech Republic


I3607
R1b1a1a
P297
10064
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAV
2300 BCE
Künzing-Bruck, Lkr. Deggendorf, Bavaria
Germany


I3599
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
36524
BB_Central_Europe

2300–2150 BCE
Alburg-Lerchenhaid, Spedition Häring, Stkr. Straubing, Bavaria
Germany


I3588
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
428761
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAV
2300–2150 BCE
Alburg-Lerchenhaid, Spedition Häring, Stkr. Straubing, Bavaria
Germany


I1381
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
690979
BB_Central_Europe
BB_France_Mon
2400–1900 BCE
Mondelange, PAC de la Sente, Moselle
France


I1382
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
607837
BB_Central_Europe
BB_France_Mon
2435–2136 calBCE (3805±35 BP, GrA-4468)
Mondelange, PAC de la Sente, Moselle
France


I1388
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
375748
BB_Southern_France
BB_France_Mar
2456–2135 calBCE (3805±40 BP, Lyon-3099)
Marlens, Sur les Barmes, Haute-Savoie
France


I1530
R1b1a1a2
M269
32225
BB_Central_Europe

2458–2140 calBCE (3818±48 BP, Er-8715)
Rothenschirmbach
Germany


E09568_d
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
32968
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAV
2461–2210 calBCE (3860±25 BP, MAMS-18918)
Hugo-Eckener-Straße (Augsburg)
Germany


I0805
R1b1a1a2
M269
225361
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_SAN
2467–2142 calBCE (3839±55 BP, Er-8558)
Quedlinburg
Germany


I1389
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
97913
BB_Central_Europe

2468–2278 calBCE [2481–2289 calBCE (3935±35 BP, Poz-41229); 2468–2278 calBCE (3925±30 BP, Poz-41228)]
Sierentz, Les Villas d'Aurele, Haut-Rhin
France


RISE564.SG
R1b1a1a2a1
L51
91035
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAVm
2500–2000 BCE
Osterhofen-Altenmarkt
Germany


I4178
R1b1a1a2
M269
587361
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Hungary_HUN
2500–2200 BCE
Szigetszentmiklós,Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő
Hungary


I1390
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
449568
BB_Central_Europe
BB_France_HAR
2566–2299 calBCE [2566–2524 calBCE (3910±35 BP, Poz-41227); 2489–2299 calBCE (3875±35 BP, Poz-41226)]
Sierentz, Les Villas d'Aurele, Haut-Rhin
France


I4253
R1b1a1a2
M269
452974
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Poland_Sam
2571–2208 calBCE (3920±60 BP, Ki-7929)
Samborzec
Poland


I4144
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
271735
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAVm
2572–2512 calBCE (3955±35 BP, Poz-84553)
Osterhofen-Altenmarkt
Germany


I4132
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
223736
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Germany_BAVm
2800–1800 BCE
Augsburg
Germany


I4251
R1b1a1a2
M269
80714
BB_Central_Europe
BB_Poland_Sam
2837–2672 calBCE (3990±60 BP, Ki-7926)
Samborzec
Poland






Maybe it would be interesting that you also check other P312 in Iberia

I3238- la Paloma Cave (Asturias)-
I6471- La Magdalena (Madrid)-Theoretically classified as CT but is the Iberian BB with the highest percentage of steppe ancestry, then it should be R1b-P312
I6588-Humanejos (Madrid)-
I3485- Castillejo del Bonete (Terrinches, Ciudad Real)

You also have I5665 (Virgazal), I6472 (La Magdalena, which seems to be positive for some SNPs downstream U152), I7691 (Monte da Cabida), I12809/I12855(Castillejo del Bonete), I6618 (Humanejos) etc.

More than 60 samples of R1b-P312 in Iberia including the 13 that have already been classified as Df27, with which I suppose some of them will be positive for this haplogroup. Given its age, I suppose it will be interesting for many people-

ArmandoR1b
07-06-2019, 11:14 PM
I finally finished what I originally said that I wanted to look at. After a final check, there are 39 specimens labeled as Beaker and/or Bronze age R1b specimens not from Iberia or the Isles that are not positive for U152, L21, U106. Z2103 or one of their subclades and aren't reported as negative for M269, L23, L51, L52, L151, P312, or DF27 in the Olalde et al. 2018 table. I ran them all through BAK 2.092 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17269-BAM-Analysis-Kit-(Windows-and-Linux)-New-release&p=578984#post578984) and I made a note of the most downstream derived SNP found, the negative SNPs downstream of L151, and the SNPs that didn't have coverage.

Of the 39 specimens we already knew was negative for L151 and an equivalent (E09568), one we already knew was positive for DF27 (I0806), one was negative for P312 (I4178), one was positive for Z2103 (I4253), and two were negative for DF27 (I4073 and I4074).

That leave 33 specimens without a read on DF27 that could be positive for DF27. They don't have a read on U152 either though and some don't even a read on P312 or another upstream SNP. There is one that is kin to a specimen positive for L2 but that doesn't prove he is positive for L2.

The reason that I post this is because it is important to note how many specimens we don't know if they are positive for DF27 and none of these had autosomal DNA from Iberia. If any of them are positive for DF27 like I0806 is then that is more evidence that DF27 was born outside of Iberia therefore that is where it originated.





ID
Y haplogroup-ISOGG version 11.110 (21 April 2016)
SNP or equivalent
Derived SNP and 2016 Haplogroup
Negative
No Coverage
SNPs in autosomes
Label
Grouping for Beaker-associated individuals
Analysis dataset
Kinship
Y-DNA SNP of kin
Date (95% CI)
Location
Country


I4890
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
L151/PF6542=R1b1a1a2a1a

P312, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
37,650
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Czech_CZE
Yes


2500–2000 BCE
Prague 8, Kobylisy, Ke Stírce Street
Czech Republic


I7288
R1b1a1a2
M269
CTS11468/PF6520=R1b1a1a2

P312, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
91,114
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Czech_CZE
Yes


2500–2200 BCE
Radovesice
Czech Republic


I5024
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
L151/PF6542=R1b1a1a2a1a

P312, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
92,728
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Czech_CZE
Yes


2278–2032 calBCE (3740±35 BP, Poz-84460)
Kněževes
Czech Republic


I1381
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
L151/PF6542=R1b1a1a2a1a
U106, L21
P312, DF27, Z195, U152
690,979
Beaker Central Europe
BK_France_Mon
Yes


2400–1900 BCE
Mondelange, PAC de la Sente, Moselle
France


I1382
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
L21
DF27, Z195, U152
607,837
Beaker Central Europe
BK_France_Mon
Yes
2-3d_rel_I1381
R-L151
2434–2135 calBCE (3805±35 BP, GrA-4468)
Mondelange, PAC de la Sente, Moselle
France


I1390
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2

DF27, Z195, L21, U152
449,568
Beaker Central Europe
BK_France_HAR
Yes


2480–2210 calBCE [2480–2288 calBCE (3910±35 BP, Poz-41227); 2467–2210 calBCE (3875±35 BP, Poz-41226)]
Sierentz, Les Villas d'Aurele, Haut-Rhin
France


I1389
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2

DF27, Z195, L21, U152
97,913
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I1390
R-P312
2468–2278 calBCE [2564–2289 calBCE (3935±35 BP, Poz-41229); 2488–2298 calBCE (3925±30 BP, Poz-41228)]
Sierentz, Les Villas d'Aurele, Haut-Rhin
France


I3599
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2

DF27, Z195, L21, U152
36,524
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I3588
R-L151
2300–2150 BCE
Alburg-Lerchenhaid, Spedition Häring, Stkr. Straubing, Bavaria
Germany


I3588
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
P310/PF6546/S129=R1b1a1a2a1a
U106, L21
P312, DF27, Z195, U152
419,937
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2300–2150 BCE
Alburg-Lerchenhaid, Spedition Häring, Stkr. Straubing, Bavaria
Germany


I4132
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2

DF27, Z195, L21, U152
271,486
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I5519
R-L2
2500–2000 BCE
Augsburg Sportgelände, Augsburg, Bavaria
Germany


I5661
R1b1a1a2
M269
PF6543/S1159/YSC0000191=R1b1a1a2a1a

DF27, Z195, L21, U152
90,529
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2500–2000 BCE
Irlbach, County of Straubing-Bogen, Bavaria
Germany


I5663
R1b
M343
M343=R1b

P297, M269, L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
23,224
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2500–2000 BCE
Irlbach, County of Straubing-Bogen, Bavaria
Germany


I5657
R1b1a1a2
M269
PF6509=R1b1a1a2

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
61,081
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I5658_I4248

2500–2000 BCE
Irlbach, County of Straubing-Bogen, Bavaria
Germany


I5660
R1b1a1a2
M269
two R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
58,395
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I6624

2500–2000 BCE
Irlbach, County of Straubing-Bogen, Bavaria
Germany


I3604
R1b1a
L754
CTS10349/FGC42/PF6492=R1b1a1a2

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
30,589
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2350–2250 BCE
Künzing-Bruck, Lkr. Deggendorf, Bavaria
Germany


I3607
R1b1a1a
P297
CTS5577/PF6464=R1b1a1a

M269,L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
10,064
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2350–2250 BCE
Künzing-Bruck, Lkr. Deggendorf, Bavaria
Germany


I5021
R1b1a1a2
M269
four R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
97,061
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2571–2341 calBCE (3955±35 BP, Poz-84553)
Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria
Germany


I5022
R1b1a1a2
M269
two R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
65,655
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2500–2000 BCE
Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria
Germany


I0805
R1b1a1a2
M269
two R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
225,361
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_SAN
Yes


2467–2142 calBCE (3839±55 BP, Er-8558)
Quedlinburg
Germany


I1530
R1b1a1a2
M269
CTS623/PF6419=R1b1a1a2

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
32,225
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I0111

2458–2140 calBCE (3818±48 BP, Er-8715)
Rothenschirmbach
Germany


I6534
R1b1a1a2
M269
two R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
72,026
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Poland_POL
Yes


2456–2149 calBCE (3830±35 BP, Poz-75936)
Kornice
Poland


I4251
R1b1a1a2
M269
five R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
80,714
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Poland_Sam
Yes


2431–2150 calBCE (3825±25 BP, PSUAMS-2321)
Samborzec
Poland


I5755
R1b1a1a2
M269
four R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
119,998
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Switzerland_Sio
Yes


2469–1984 BCE [two dates 2469–2041 calBCE (3820±70 BP; B-3061) and 2467–1984 calBCE (3790±80 BP; B-3064) from dolmen XI]
Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Dolmen XI
Switzerland


I5757
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
L151=R1b1a1a2a1a

P312, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
74,999
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Switzerland_Sio
Yes


2469–1984 BCE [two dates 2469–2041 calBCE (3820±70 BP; B-3061) and 2467–1984 calBCE (3790±80 BP; B-3064) from dolmen XI]
Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Dolmen XI
Switzerland


I2478
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
Z195, L21
DF27,U152
622,069
Beaker Northern Italy
BK_Italy_Gui3
Yes


2194–1939 calBCE (3671±40 BP, LTL-5035A)
Via Guidorossi, Parma, Emilia Romagna
Italy


I1388
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
L151=R1b1a1a2a1a
U106
P312, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
375,748
Beaker Southern France
BK_France_Mar
Yes


2455–2134 calBCE (3805±40 BP, Ly-3099)
Marlens, Sur les Barmes, Haute-Savoie
France


I4068
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
L21
DF27, Z195, U152
469,691
Beaker The Netherlands
BK_Netherlands_Tui
Yes
2-3d_rel_I4073
R-P312
2131–1951 calBCE (3655±20 BP, PSUAMS-2318)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I4069
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
L21
DF27, Z195, U152
721,500
Beaker The Netherlands
BK_Netherlands_Tui
Yes


2188–1887 calBCE (3640±50 BP, GrA-6477)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I5748
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
L21
DF27, Z195, U152
636,009
Beaker The Netherlands
BK_Netherlands_Tui
Yes


2579–2233 calBCE (3945±55 BP, GrN-6650C)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I5750
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
Z195
DF27, L21, U152
641,693
Beaker The Netherlands
BK_Netherlands_Tui
Yes


2300–1900 BCE
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I7202
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
L21
DF27, Z195, U152
548,005
Czech_EBA

Yes


2200–1700 BCE
Prague 5, Jinonice, Zahradnictví
Czech Republic


I7041
R1b1a1a2
M269
PF6540/YSC0000082=R1b1a1a2a1a
U106
P312, DF27, Z195, U152
382,155
Hungary_BA

No (kinship)


2500–2200 BCE
Szigetszentmiklós-Üdülősor
Hungary


I6537
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
P310=R1b1a1a2a1a
U106, L21
P312, DF27, Z195, U152
533,101
Poland_BA

Yes


2290–2041 calBCE (3765±35 BP, Poz-54136)
Racibórz-Stara Wieś
Poland

Shadogowah
07-07-2019, 11:31 AM
I finally finished what I originally said that I wanted to look at. After a final check, there are 39 specimens labeled as Beaker and/or Bronze age R1b specimens not from Iberia or the Isles that are not positive for U152, L21, U106. Z2103 or one of their subclades and aren't reported as negative for M269, L23, L51, L52, L151, P312, or DF27 in the Olalde et al. 2018 table. I ran them all through BAK 2.092 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17269-BAM-Analysis-Kit-(Windows-and-Linux)-New-release&p=578984#post578984) and I made a note of the most downstream derived SNP found, the negative SNPs downstream of L151, and the SNPs that didn't have coverage.

Of the 39 specimens we already knew was negative for L151 and an equivalent (E09568), one we already knew was positive for DF27 (I0806), one was negative for P312 (I4178), one was positive for Z2103 (I4253), and two were negative for DF27 (I4073 and I4074).

That leave 33 specimens without a read on DF27 that could be positive for DF27. They don't have a read on U152 either though and some don't even a read on P312 or another upstream SNP. There is one that is kin to a specimen positive for L2 but that doesn't prove he is positive for L2.

The reason that I post this is because it is important to note how many specimens we don't know if they are positive for DF27 and none of these had autosomal DNA from Iberia. If any of them are positive for DF27 like I0806 is then that is more evidence that DF27 was born outside of Iberia therefore that is where it originated.





ID
Y haplogroup-ISOGG version 11.110 (21 April 2016)
SNP or equivalent
Derived SNP and 2016 Haplogroup
Negative
No Coverage
SNPs in autosomes
Label
Grouping for Beaker-associated individuals
Analysis dataset
Kinship
Y-DNA SNP of kin
Date (95% CI)
Location
Country


I4890
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
L151/PF6542=R1b1a1a2a1a

P312, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
37,650
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Czech_CZE
Yes


2500–2000 BCE
Prague 8, Kobylisy, Ke Stírce Street
Czech Republic


I7288
R1b1a1a2
M269
CTS11468/PF6520=R1b1a1a2

P312, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
91,114
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Czech_CZE
Yes


2500–2200 BCE
Radovesice
Czech Republic


I5024
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
L151/PF6542=R1b1a1a2a1a

P312, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
92,728
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Czech_CZE
Yes


2278–2032 calBCE (3740±35 BP, Poz-84460)
Kněževes
Czech Republic


I1381
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
L151/PF6542=R1b1a1a2a1a
U106, L21
P312, DF27, Z195, U152
690,979
Beaker Central Europe
BK_France_Mon
Yes


2400–1900 BCE
Mondelange, PAC de la Sente, Moselle
France


I1382
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
L21
DF27, Z195, U152
607,837
Beaker Central Europe
BK_France_Mon
Yes
2-3d_rel_I1381
R-L151
2434–2135 calBCE (3805±35 BP, GrA-4468)
Mondelange, PAC de la Sente, Moselle
France


I1390
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2

DF27, Z195, L21, U152
449,568
Beaker Central Europe
BK_France_HAR
Yes


2480–2210 calBCE [2480–2288 calBCE (3910±35 BP, Poz-41227); 2467–2210 calBCE (3875±35 BP, Poz-41226)]
Sierentz, Les Villas d'Aurele, Haut-Rhin
France


I1389
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2

DF27, Z195, L21, U152
97,913
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I1390
R-P312
2468–2278 calBCE [2564–2289 calBCE (3935±35 BP, Poz-41229); 2488–2298 calBCE (3925±30 BP, Poz-41228)]
Sierentz, Les Villas d'Aurele, Haut-Rhin
France


I3599
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2

DF27, Z195, L21, U152
36,524
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I3588
R-L151
2300–2150 BCE
Alburg-Lerchenhaid, Spedition Häring, Stkr. Straubing, Bavaria
Germany


I3588
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
P310/PF6546/S129=R1b1a1a2a1a
U106, L21
P312, DF27, Z195, U152
419,937
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2300–2150 BCE
Alburg-Lerchenhaid, Spedition Häring, Stkr. Straubing, Bavaria
Germany


I4132
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2

DF27, Z195, L21, U152
271,486
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I5519
R-L2
2500–2000 BCE
Augsburg Sportgelände, Augsburg, Bavaria
Germany


I5661
R1b1a1a2
M269
PF6543/S1159/YSC0000191=R1b1a1a2a1a

DF27, Z195, L21, U152
90,529
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2500–2000 BCE
Irlbach, County of Straubing-Bogen, Bavaria
Germany


I5663
R1b
M343
M343=R1b

P297, M269, L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
23,224
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2500–2000 BCE
Irlbach, County of Straubing-Bogen, Bavaria
Germany


I5657
R1b1a1a2
M269
PF6509=R1b1a1a2

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
61,081
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I5658_I4248

2500–2000 BCE
Irlbach, County of Straubing-Bogen, Bavaria
Germany


I5660
R1b1a1a2
M269
two R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
58,395
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I6624

2500–2000 BCE
Irlbach, County of Straubing-Bogen, Bavaria
Germany


I3604
R1b1a
L754
CTS10349/FGC42/PF6492=R1b1a1a2

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
30,589
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2350–2250 BCE
Künzing-Bruck, Lkr. Deggendorf, Bavaria
Germany


I3607
R1b1a1a
P297
CTS5577/PF6464=R1b1a1a

M269,L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
10,064
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2350–2250 BCE
Künzing-Bruck, Lkr. Deggendorf, Bavaria
Germany


I5021
R1b1a1a2
M269
four R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
97,061
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2571–2341 calBCE (3955±35 BP, Poz-84553)
Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria
Germany


I5022
R1b1a1a2
M269
two R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
65,655
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_BAV
Yes


2500–2000 BCE
Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria
Germany


I0805
R1b1a1a2
M269
two R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
225,361
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Germany_SAN
Yes


2467–2142 calBCE (3839±55 BP, Er-8558)
Quedlinburg
Germany


I1530
R1b1a1a2
M269
CTS623/PF6419=R1b1a1a2

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
32,225
Beaker Central Europe

No (kinship)
1d_rel_I0111

2458–2140 calBCE (3818±48 BP, Er-8715)
Rothenschirmbach
Germany


I6534
R1b1a1a2
M269
two R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
72,026
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Poland_POL
Yes


2456–2149 calBCE (3830±35 BP, Poz-75936)
Kornice
Poland


I4251
R1b1a1a2
M269
five R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
80,714
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Poland_Sam
Yes


2431–2150 calBCE (3825±25 BP, PSUAMS-2321)
Samborzec
Poland


I5755
R1b1a1a2
M269
four R1b1a1a2 SNPs

L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
119,998
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Switzerland_Sio
Yes


2469–1984 BCE [two dates 2469–2041 calBCE (3820±70 BP; B-3061) and 2467–1984 calBCE (3790±80 BP; B-3064) from dolmen XI]
Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Dolmen XI
Switzerland


I5757
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
L151=R1b1a1a2a1a

P312, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
74,999
Beaker Central Europe
BK_Switzerland_Sio
Yes


2469–1984 BCE [two dates 2469–2041 calBCE (3820±70 BP; B-3061) and 2467–1984 calBCE (3790±80 BP; B-3064) from dolmen XI]
Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Dolmen XI
Switzerland


I2478
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
Z195, L21
DF27,U152
622,069
Beaker Northern Italy
BK_Italy_Gui3
Yes


2194–1939 calBCE (3671±40 BP, LTL-5035A)
Via Guidorossi, Parma, Emilia Romagna
Italy


I1388
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
L151=R1b1a1a2a1a
U106
P312, DF27, Z195, L21, U152
375,748
Beaker Southern France
BK_France_Mar
Yes


2455–2134 calBCE (3805±40 BP, Ly-3099)
Marlens, Sur les Barmes, Haute-Savoie
France


I4068
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
L21
DF27, Z195, U152
469,691
Beaker The Netherlands
BK_Netherlands_Tui
Yes
2-3d_rel_I4073
R-P312
2131–1951 calBCE (3655±20 BP, PSUAMS-2318)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I4069
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
L21
DF27, Z195, U152
721,500
Beaker The Netherlands
BK_Netherlands_Tui
Yes


2188–1887 calBCE (3640±50 BP, GrA-6477)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I5748
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
L21
DF27, Z195, U152
636,009
Beaker The Netherlands
BK_Netherlands_Tui
Yes


2579–2233 calBCE (3945±55 BP, GrN-6650C)
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I5750
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
Z195
DF27, L21, U152
641,693
Beaker The Netherlands
BK_Netherlands_Tui
Yes


2300–1900 BCE
De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland
The Netherlands


I7202
R1b1a1a2a1a2
P312
P312=R1b1a1a2a1a2
L21
DF27, Z195, U152
548,005
Czech_EBA

Yes


2200–1700 BCE
Prague 5, Jinonice, Zahradnictví
Czech Republic


I7041
R1b1a1a2
M269
PF6540/YSC0000082=R1b1a1a2a1a
U106
P312, DF27, Z195, U152
382,155
Hungary_BA

No (kinship)


2500–2200 BCE
Szigetszentmiklós-Üdülősor
Hungary


I6537
R1b1a1a2a1a
L151
P310=R1b1a1a2a1a
U106, L21
P312, DF27, Z195, U152
533,101
Poland_BA

Yes


2290–2041 calBCE (3765±35 BP, Poz-54136)
Racibórz-Stara Wieś
Poland








Is it possible that most of them could belong to extinct parallel lineages?

ArmandoR1b
07-07-2019, 07:22 PM
Is it possible that most of them could belong to extinct parallel lineages?

It's possible but the problem is that there is not enough coverage to know if they belong to subclades that have descendants. The significant number of specimens with reduced coverage of Y-DNA due to decay causing no coverage doesn't allow us to determine that. The reason I posted the table is to highlight how important it is to investigate the lack of coverage of DF27, U152, and even at times L21 for R1b specimens. It would take complete coverage, without any decay, to be able to determine if they are negative for all known downstream subclades. However, that would also leave open the possibility that the reason for the lack of known subclades is that not enough people have had NextGen or WGS testing and therefore they exist in modern population but haven't been identified. We can't conclude something likely doesn't exist without a sufficient number of samples with negative results. A lack of coverage is not the same as negative results.

Hilerno
07-07-2019, 09:05 PM
It's possible but the problem is that there is not enough coverage to know if they belong to subclades that have descendants. The significant number of specimens with reduced coverage of Y-DNA due to decay causing no coverage doesn't allow us to determine that. The reason I posted the table is to highlight how important it is to investigate the lack of coverage of DF27, U152, and even at times L21 for R1b specimens. It would take complete coverage, without any decay, to be able to determine if they are negative for all known downstream subclades. However, that would also leave open the possibility that the reason for the lack of known subclades is that not enough people have had NextGen or WGS testing and therefore they exist in modern population but haven't been identified. We can't conclude something likely doesn't exist without a sufficient number of samples with negative results. A lack of coverage is not the same as negative results.

Don't worry, Df27 will continue to appear where he lived, be it in France, Spain, Germany, Scandinavia, or the British Isles. The percentage of ancient genomes with good coverage is enough to safely trace the history of Df27, but what is true, is that it will not appear where it never was or where it was only passing. Nor can we pretend that after 4,500 years our ancestors and relatives keep their DNA intact. At the moment we Spaniards have to be satisfied with everything we have found. The work of geneticists, both professional and amateur, is being spectacular and the effectiveness is enough to reconstruct our history.

Meanwhile everyone will continue to speculate and elaborate more or less convincing theories and we will all have a good time discussing them.

ArmandoR1b
07-08-2019, 01:28 AM
Don't worry, Df27 will continue to appear where he lived, be it in France, Spain, Germany, Scandinavia, or the British Isles.
I'm not worried about anything. I only state what needs to be acknowledged. Anyway, it's not where DF27 has lived that caused me to post that table. We have a general idea where DF27 exists currently based on various studies and FTDNA testing and YFull. But we can't know in which modern countries that DF27 existed in during the early Bronze Age without sufficient specimens with coverage of DF27. It's impossible to state, and be factually correct, that there wasn't DF27 in a region in the early Bronze Age when the specimens don't have a read for DF27.



The percentage of ancient genomes with good coverage is enough to safely trace the history of Df27,
Based on the specimens and the results so far we can logically conclude that DF27 was born outside of Iberia but we still can't conclude where in Europe, outside of Iberia, that DF27 was born. We need a lot more specimens with read on DF27, especially from 3500-2500 BC, and from other regions that there are no specimens for where DF27 could have originated before we can get an idea where P312 and/or DF27 was born.



but what is true, is that it will not appear where it never was or where it was only passing.
This is obvious.



Nor can we pretend that after 4,500 years our ancestors and relatives keep their DNA intact. At the moment we Spaniards have to be satisfied with everything we have found. The work of geneticists, both professional and amateur, is being spectacular and the effectiveness is enough to reconstruct our history.
There is still a lot of data that is missing partly because of the decay of the DNA of the ancient specimens and because the C14 dating isn't always accurate to within 100 years. The fact that some DF27 made it's way to Iberia in the early Bronze Age and prospered in Iberia has been established although partly based on a pre-print of a study that hasn't published the BAM files. What still can't be determined is which modern country outside of Iberia was the one that gave birth to DF27.



Meanwhile everyone will continue to speculate and elaborate more or less convincing theories and we will all have a good time discussing them.
There has been a lot of conclusions over the years but certain things are logical and others are just plain speculation for the sake of speculating. I prefer to focus on what is known and what is not known meaning there are several possibilities for several aspects concerning DF27. That includes the origin of DF27 and also the range and dispersal of DF27.

Shadogowah
07-08-2019, 04:42 AM
It's possible but the problem is that there is not enough coverage to know if they belong to subclades that have descendants. The significant number of specimens with reduced coverage of Y-DNA due to decay causing no coverage doesn't allow us to determine that. The reason I posted the table is to highlight how important it is to investigate the lack of coverage of DF27, U152, and even at times L21 for R1b specimens. It would take complete coverage, without any decay, to be able to determine if they are negative for all known downstream subclades. However, that would also leave open the possibility that the reason for the lack of known subclades is that not enough people have had NextGen or WGS testing and therefore they exist in modern population but haven't been identified. We can't conclude something likely doesn't exist without a sufficient number of samples with negative results. A lack of coverage is not the same as negative results.

I didn't want to conclude anything but suggest possibilities.

The current distribution of western haplogroups most of the times seems to be explained via founder effect and therefore DF27 were the first wave to arrive and acquire numerical advantage but I was wondering if its siblings arrived more or less at the same time but lost in some sort of competition.

Hilerno
07-08-2019, 08:59 AM
I'm not worried about anything. I only state what needs to be acknowledged. Anyway, it's not where DF27 has lived that caused me to post that table. We have a general idea where DF27 exists currently based on various studies and FTDNA testing and YFull. But we can't know in which modern countries that DF27 existed in during the early Bronze Age without sufficient specimens with coverage of DF27. It's impossible to state, and be factually correct, that there wasn't DF27 in a region in the early Bronze Age when the specimens don't have a read for DF27.


Based on the specimens and the results so far we can logically conclude that DF27 was born outside of Iberia but we still can't conclude where in Europe, outside of Iberia, that DF27 was born. We need a lot more specimens with read on DF27, especially from 3500-2500 BC, and from other regions that there are no specimens for where DF27 could have originated before we can get an idea where P312 and/or DF27 was born.

This is obvious.

There is still a lot of data that is missing partly because of the decay of the DNA of the ancient specimens and because the C14 dating isn't always accurate to within 100 years. The fact that some DF27 made it's way to Iberia in the early Bronze Age and prospered in Iberia has been established although partly based on a pre-print of a study that hasn't published the BAM files. What still can't be determined is which modern country outside of Iberia was the one that gave birth to DF27.


There has been a lot of conclusions over the years but certain things are logical and others are just plain speculation for the sake of speculating. I prefer to focus on what is known and what is not known meaning there are several possibilities for several aspects concerning DF27. That includes the origin of DF27 and also the range and dispersal of DF27.

Well, I think that everyone appreciates the interest you are showing in looking for Df27. But remember that not only in the Netherlands, France and Germany there are cases of R1b-P312 with poor coverage. That's a problem that we also have in Spain, so we have to check the snps of those samples that have not yet been classified with total security (aprox 40/50)

It seems that many people have come to the seemingly logical conclusion that Df27 was born outside of Iberia. Apparently no one knows where, but the important thing must be that it was certainly outside the Iberian Peninsula. I agree, because based on ancient DNA, I would now say that Df27 is of Sicilian origin, because regardless of the fact that they are clearly Iberian migrants, this lineage has not yet been identified in Iberia (before 2.300 BC)- (Since the island of Sicily belonged to the Viceroyalty of Naples for centuries, we are also happy, and surely we will find some Sicilian relatives, descendant of those Iberian BBs).

The Bronze Age is when there really was a huge demographic explosion across Europe. That's why I talked about a founder effect of Df27 in Iberia, the strange thing is that Df27 has not been detected in other countries, although it is true that it may be due to lack of exhaustive studies (I am thinking of France and Italy). Regarding Germany and Central Europe, I think there is enough ancient DNa analyzed and at the moment there is no trace of Df27, that is to say it was territory U152

It is also evident that the two main branches of Df27- that is, ZZ12 and Z195 are documented in Iberia, and I believe that at least 12 branches of these subclades, have been identified. The 14 cases of Df27 identified in Iberia, mean that thousands of men in Spain, Portugal, America and other European countries can trace with total security their origins by paternal line to the Iberian Peninsula. I suppose they will be happy to have finally found their ancestors. I already told you when we started this thread that finding the exact place of the birth of a certain lineage seems very difficult. And in reality it should not matter much, because what is really important is that most branches are Iberian, and from there we can work safely to study population movements and know how this lineage spread throughout the world.

rms2
07-08-2019, 11:59 AM
Why Sicily?

I think one has to keep in mind the overall prehistoric pattern in Europe:

1. Small bands of hunter-gatherers wandered the continent during the Paleolithic and Mesolithic Periods;

2. About 9,000 years ago, Neolithic farmers from the Near East arrived in southern Europe and began spreading throughout the rest of the continent, at first displacing but then mixing with the native hunter-gatherers, so that by about 5,500 years ago most Europeans were a combination of those two elements;

3. About 5000 years ago, Indo-European pastoralists from the Pontic-Caspian steppe moved west into Europe, affecting a massive change in the European genome, language and culture, so that now by far most Europeans speak an Indo-European language and are a genetic combination of Native Hunter-Gatherer, Early European Farmer, and Steppe Pastoralist.

It isn't likely that DF27 bucked that progression, closely connected as it is to Kurgan Bell Beaker, which was a product of #3 above.

Hilerno
07-09-2019, 08:33 AM
The oldest cases of Df27-Z195 are in Sicily, then they are fundamental to understand the origin of this haplogroup. Until other cases are discovered in Europe, they are the ones that have to serve as a reference and therefore we have to think that Df27-Z195 originated in Sicily. Obviously the current origin of any lineage is provisional, and subject to new discoveries. This provisionality can last days, months or years.

I8561-Abisso del Vento-C14 dated to 2346-2199 calBCE 298 (3825±20 BP, PSUAMS-4873) (2.272 AC)- I3123-BU31, grave 3031, cranium III- Skull, with the left portion of the frontal bone missing, extremely brachycephalic (“planoccipital”)- The skull sutures are open. Morphologically the individual is inferred to be a male. C14 dated to 2287-2044 calBCE (3760±30 BP, 138 PSUAMS-3892)- (2.165 BC)-

Evidently we know that the Z195 arrived in Sicily sailing and carrying the BB culture with them, and we have to bear in mind that this culture only extended to small regions of the island and that it is considered there as an anecdotal culture that lasted only a few hundred years.

So, we can only speculate with the point of origin of that migration. Obviously we have to take as a starting point the type of pottery found in the deposits, and this track, points to Iberia. But obviously, this pottery is also found in the south of France, in Sardinia, and in northern Italy, then we can not exclude that these gentlemen traveled from any of those regions. We also have to take into account the trade and colonization routes used in the western Mediterranean from the Neolithic. Putting this knowledge together we have sufficient evidence to suppose that Z195 was a relatively common lineage in the Western Mediterranean in the 24th and 23rd centuries, and these data are very close to the estimated origin for the haplogroup.

rms2
07-09-2019, 11:03 AM
A couple of points: that R1b-DF27 Kurgan Bell Beaker skeleton from Germany, I0806, is slightly older, and Sicily was a receiver of Kurgan Bell Beaker migrants, a destination on the southern margin, not a point of origin.

Sicily is not thought of as any kind of source of KBB culture, pottery styles, weapons, etc., either.

It isn't likely that DF27 first appeared there.

Hilerno
07-09-2019, 12:03 PM
Well, here we are talking about Df27-Z195 and then the oldest Z195 is in Sicily (2.272 BC)

Regarding I0806, it appeared in different studies and with different dates- Brotherton et al (2.013-with a date that can be discarded because it was not calibrated), Haak et al (2.015-2.296-2.206 cal BCE-2 Sigma calibrated- 2.251 BC) and Mathieson et al (2.015-2.431-2.150 cal BCE-2 Sigma calibrated-2.290 BC).

Normally archaeologists choose the calibration that has less variability, because they are more reliable, then we should think that the correct dating for that sample is 2.251 BC, slightly more modern than the Sicilian case. If you prefer to use the one with more variability then the correct dating would be 2,290 BC, slightly older. The discussion is sterile because the two samples (Germany and Sicily) are obviously contemporary. I have already seen that you prefer to consider Quedlinburg as older, I really do not have preferences about it. In any case, I0806 can not serve as a reference for the Sicilian samples because it does not have any SNP downstream Df27, that is, it can not be classified as either Z195 or ZZ12, which means that we still have the Sicilian sample as the most ancient Df27-Z195 of Europe.

Obviously Sicily is not the source of the BB culture, just a kind of commercial settlement. Regarding the path followed by Z195, he was able to follow the course of the Rhone River, reach the French coast and sail to Sicily. Who knows? We will have to wait for other results in Germany, France or Switzerland to find out. I think we can not rule out any alternative, although the pottery is clearly Iberian/French and not German

rms2
07-09-2019, 02:11 PM
YFull shows the tmrca of Z195 as about 4500 ybp or about 2550 BC (using 1950 as “present”), which is also what they have for the tmrca of DF27 itself. If that’s accurate (Who knows?), then it is extremely unlikely that Z195 arose in Sicily, unless one wants to claim Z195 predates Kurgan Bell Beaker there.

Regarding KBB pottery, I don’t agree that it’s ultimately of Iberian origin. I think van der Waals, Glasbergen, and Lanting were right in deriving it from Corded Ware Single Grave Protruding Foot Beaker in the Netherlands.

Hilerno
07-09-2019, 03:51 PM
Daniel Fernandes et al (2.019). Early Bronze Age: "We find that Sicily_EBA can be fit as Sicily_MN and Bell_Beaker_Iberia_highsteppe (15.7 ± 3.5%), in agreement with the Y chromosome evidence of an Iberian affinity. Our modeling of the three outliers identifies France_Bell_Beaker as the only parsimonious fitting second source (Supplementary Table 14), albeit with different proportions of 29.7 ± 3.4% in Sicily_EBA3123, 44.7 ± 3.2% in Sicily_EBA8561, and , 74.2 ± 3.8 in Sicily_EBA11443.

rms2
07-09-2019, 04:51 PM
Daniel Fernandes et al (2.019). Early Bronze Age: "We find that Sicily_EBA can be fit as Sicily_MN and Bell_Beaker_Iberia_highsteppe (15.7 ± 3.5%), in agreement with the Y chromosome evidence of an Iberian affinity. Our modeling of the three outliers identifies France_Bell_Beaker as the only parsimonious fitting second source (Supplementary Table 14), albeit with different proportions of 29.7 ± 3.4% in Sicily_EBA3123, 44.7 ± 3.2% in Sicily_EBA8561, and , 74.2 ± 3.8 in Sicily_EBA11443.

Which says what about the origin of Z195? (Except that Fernandes et al seem to be deriving it from Iberia, thus the "Y chromosome evidence of an Iberian affinity".)