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parasar
12-18-2013, 02:59 AM
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9505/8q7z.png

Rootsi, S. et al. Phylogenetic applications of whole Y-chromosome sequences and the Near Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Levites. Nat. Commun. 4:2928 doi: 10.1038/ncomms3928 (2013).

...
Any reason the Z2124 level is missing? As that is the one that unifies Z2123 and Z2122 (and separates Y40 and L657).


the divergence time of the two Ashkenazi M582 lineages and the Assyrian R1a-Z2122(xM582) sequence, yielding an estimate of 4,000 (SE 300) years.

That Iberian connection is interesting, as

According to Ibn Faḍlan, Ibn Dastah, and others, only the king and the grandees were followers of Judaism. The rest of the Chazars were Christians, Mohammedaus, and heathens ... Many members of the Chazarian royal family emigrated to Spain.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4279-chazars

PGP4 (Ashkenazi Jew) and HG01617 (Iberian from Spain) - https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1MWpWdVlUa19RY2c/edit

Humanist
12-18-2013, 05:48 AM
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9505/8q7z.png

Rootsi, S. et al. Phylogenetic applications of whole Y-chromosome sequences and the Near Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Levites. Nat. Commun. 4:2928 doi: 10.1038/ncomms3928 (2013).

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html

Regarding the Iraqi Jewish and Mumbai Jewish match, this may be of relevance:


History of the Jews in Bombay, India, began when Jews started settling in Bombay during the 18th century, due to its economic opportunities.[1] The Jewish community of Bombay consisted of the remnants of three distinct communities: the Bene Israeli Jews of Konkan, the Baghdadi Jews of Iraq, and the Cochin Jews of Malabar.[2]


That Iberian connection is interesting...

When I see that tree I am thinking more crypto-Jew, than Khazar.

Generalissimo
12-18-2013, 06:10 AM
That Iberian connection is interesting.

But the crypto-Jew explanation much more practical.

Rathna
12-18-2013, 06:10 AM
Then
from P to R about 4,000 y
from R to R1 about 3,200 y
from R1 to R-Z2105 and R-L11 about 10,700 y
from R-Z2105 to the line of these Jews 800 y
between this Kurdish Jew and an Assyrian about 4,500 y

P.S. The SNPs come from only 8,97Mbp not from the Full Y, thus the dates are higher, we don't know how much.

Rathna
12-18-2013, 06:34 AM
But the crypto-Jew explanation much more practical.

Of course without other not-Jews tested and above all the aDNA we cannot say if these people descend from ancient Jews or are introgressed in different times.

Generalissimo
12-18-2013, 08:51 AM
Well, in any case, the whole genome is available at the 1000 Genomes website, and it looks like that pedigree has been in Murcia for a while (Iberian_HG01617).

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4160/owyl.png

Palisto
12-18-2013, 08:55 AM
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9505/8q7z.png

Rootsi, S. et al. Phylogenetic applications of whole Y-chromosome sequences and the Near Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Levites. Nat. Commun. 4:2928 doi: 10.1038/ncomms3928 (2013).

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html

Based on this paper 43% (3/7) of R1a-M198 Kurds are R1a-M582 (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2013/12/ashkenazi-levite-jews-and-their-iranian.html). This is a higher percentage than in all other tested non-Jewish populations.

palamede
12-18-2013, 10:02 AM
Then
from P to R about 4,000 y
from R to R1 about 3,200 y
from R1 to R-Z2105 and R-L11 about 10,700 y
from R-Z2105 to the line of these Jews 800 y
between this Kurdish Jew and an Assyrian about 4,500 y

P.S. The SNPs come from only 8,97Mbp not from the Full Y, thus the dates are higher, we don't know how much.

This gives 23200 years from P to present with 1 mutation every 100 years . With 8,9Mbp,Francalacci et al took 1 mutation every 200 years (confirmed by Ray Banks independantly). Therefore, the distance from P to present becomes 46,400years . but I am certain P is more than 50,000 years old and probably coalesced at the end of the first pleniglacial 59,000 years ago and before the warm and wet phase between 55,000 and 50,000 time of the expansion of AMH from India (origin of P) and Gulf to Near East westwards (Emirian culture with G, I and J) and to Center Asia (origin of R and Q probably) northwards.

46400 is by couting for R1b line . For R1a line from P to Assyrian, it is 50,000 years

The gap between 59-55,000 and 50-46,000 , about 5-13,000 years is probably to find in the ends of the tree still weakly known and not between P and L11,Z93 with SNPs now well-known enough.

Rathna
12-18-2013, 10:12 AM
This gives 21200 years from P_to_present with 1 mutation every 100 years . With 8,9Mbp,Francalacci et al took 1 mutation every 200 years. Therefore, the distance from P to present becomes 42,400years . but I am certain P is more than 50,000 years old and probably coalesced at the end of the first pleniglacial 59,000 years ago and before the warm and wet phase between 55,000 and 50,000 time of the expansion of AMH from India (origin of P) and Gulf to Near East westwards (Emirian culture with G, I and J) and to Center Asia (origin of R and Q probably) northwards.

The gap between 59-55,000 and 42,500 , about 17-13,000 years is probably to find in the ends of the tree still weakly known and not between P and L11,Z93 with SNPs now well-known enough.

Palamede, in another thread (see R1b Phylogeny) I examined the SNPs between Z2103 and Z2110 and it seemed to me that only Z2108 lacked, thus the SNPs lacked aren't the double but a little bit more. But for me, and for my theory of the Italian Refugium, already these dates are good.

ADW_1981
12-18-2013, 03:20 PM
From the Paper:

R1a-M582 was identified in various populations, with the highest frequency occurring within Iranians collected from the southeastern Kerman population who self-identified as Persians, northwestern Iranian Azeri and in Cilician Anatolian Kurds, at 2.86%, 2.50% and 2.83%, respectively

The R1a-M582 fellow(s?) may have been ruling elite Khazar(s) who converted to Judaism way back when. We actually have no way of knowing, but my first impulse is not to equate this branch with exiled Israelites quite frankly.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 05:52 PM
From the Paper:

R1a-M582 was identified in various populations, with the highest frequency occurring within Iranians collected from the southeastern Kerman population who self-identified as Persians, northwestern Iranian Azeri and in Cilician Anatolian Kurds, at 2.86%, 2.50% and 2.83%, respectively

The R1a-M582 fellow(s?) may have been ruling elite Khazar(s) who converted to Judaism way back when. We actually have no way of knowing, but my first impulse is not to equate this branch with exiled Israelites quite frankly.

The paper pretty much argued against it. And the argument seemed quite convincing. There are options other than equating R1a-M582 with Khazars or exiled Israelites.

Jean M
12-18-2013, 05:57 PM
Razib Khan has chimed in with The Empire of R1a1a and the Levites: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-empire-of-r1a1a-and-the-levites/

Humanist
12-18-2013, 06:33 PM
The paper pretty much argued against it. And the argument seemed quite convincing. There are options other than equating R1a-M582 with Khazars or exiled Israelites.

Yes. Such as the center of Judaism for a significant part of its history. Mesopotamia/Persia. Judaism has a 2500+ year history in the east.


Babylonia remained the center of Judaism in the world. The major book defining Rabbinic Judaism, the Babylonian Talmud, was written in Jewish Babylonian Aramaic in Asorestan between the 3rd and 5th centuries. The Babylonian Talmudic academies were all established relatively near to Seleucia-Ctesiphon. The first Talmudic academy was founded in Sura by Rav (175–247) in about 220. One of the most influential Talmudic teachers, Rava (270–350), who was influenced by both Manichaean polemic and Zoroastrian theology, studied in another Talmudic academy at Pumbedita.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 06:39 PM
Yes. Such as the center of Judaism for a significant part of its history. Mesopotamia/Persia. Judaism has a 2500+ year history in the east.

I sincerely doubt Babylonians carried any R1a clade. Ultimately M582 is connected to some sort of Iranian speaking population whether West Asian or Scythians from the steppe imo.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 06:39 PM
Although the Mittani could be another option.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 06:41 PM
I also doubt Z2124+ and Z2125+ can be anything other than Central Asian.

ADW_1981
12-18-2013, 06:48 PM
The paper pretty much argued against it. And the argument seemed quite convincing. There are options other than equating R1a-M582 with Khazars or exiled Israelites.

No it didn't if you actually read it. It stated that the R1a1a was not the result of converted Poles, which all of us in 2013 knew already. Go back and read it son.

Khazars are a mysterious people whom we have very little information about. Perhaps the ruling elite were more like Persians. It's certainly a plausible scenario.

The data doesn't support a Levant origin though. The Middle East is a vast territory...

Humanist
12-18-2013, 07:06 PM
I sincerely doubt Babylonians carried any R1a clade. Ultimately M582 is connected to some sort of Iranian speaking population whether West Asian or Scythians from the steppe imo.

From a past post of mine:


In Babylon, the Indo-European (Greco-Macedonian), Indo-Iranian IE (Persian), West Semitic (Canaanite), and Sumero-Akkadian (Mesopotamian) worlds came together, in one place, at the same time, perhaps for the first time.

Edit:

I should add that I am not defining "Babylonian" as you appear to be (i.e. "Semite").

Also, I said Mesopotamia/Persia. This includes northern Mesopotamia and Iran.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 07:21 PM
No it didn't if you actually read it. It stated that the R1a1a was not the result of converted Poles, which all of us in 2013 knew already. Go back and read it son.

Khazars are a mysterious people whom we have very little information about. Perhaps the ruling elite were more like Persians. It's certainly a plausible scenario.

The data doesn't support a Levant origin though. The Middle East is a vast territory...

First of all I'm not your son.

Second maybe you should read it again.

As David quoted on his blog




Considering the historical records of Ashkenazi Jews, three potential geographic sources should be considered: the Near East, which was the geographic location for the ancient Hebrews; Europe, which was the residence of the Ashkenazi Jewish Diaspora and the region in which they evolved for nearly two millennia; and the region overlapping with the no longer extant mid-11th Century Khazarian Khaganate, whose ruling class has been suggested to have converted to Judaism18. Our data render the latter source highly unlikely since the Khazarian Khaganate overlapped with the Northern Pontic-Caspian steppe and the North Caucasus region, in which just one Nogay sample carried the R1a-M582 haplogroup (Table 1). Furthermore, the Nogays, formerly a powerful Kipchak Turkic-speaking nomadic confederation, are relatively recent inhabitants of the Caucasus, and the STR haplotype of the sole R1a-M582 Nogay sample lies outside of the Levite cluster. Had the Caucasus region been the source for the Ashkenazi modal lineage, we likely would have found R1a-M582 Y-chromosomes in some of its 20 local populations examined in our sample of more than 2,000 Y-chromosomes (Table 1).


http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2013/12/near-eastern-origin-of-ashkenazi-r1a.html

Why would the ruling class have been like Persians? The ruling class would have been more like steppe populations, Central Asians and Caucasians. And so far not much M582 in the North Caucasus. I suspect the same will be true for Central Asia.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 07:23 PM
From a past post of mine:



Edit:

I should add that I am not defining "Babylonian" as you appear to be (i.e. "Semite").

I'm not defining Babylonian as Semitic either. I'm trying to say that this clade can ultimately be traced back to Central Asia where Z2124+ likely originated. Of course that doesn't rule out it traveling from Central Asia to Iran to Mesopotamia to Jewish populations.

Humanist
12-18-2013, 07:26 PM
I'm not defining Babylonian as Semitic either. I'm trying to say that this clade can ultimately be traced back to Central Asia where Z2124+ likely originated. Of course that doesn't rule out it traveling from Central Asia to Iran to Mesopotamia to Jewish populations.

Agreed. A (ultimately) Central Asian origin is most likely, in my opinion.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 07:56 PM
Agreed. A (ultimately) Central Asian origin is most likely, in my opinion.

Yep. But definitely not from Khazars imo. More likely Z2124+ originated in Central Asia and migrated to West Asia and Z2122+ and M582+ developed in situ from West Asian R1a clades. But the Khazar theory will never go away.

Humanist
12-18-2013, 08:07 PM
But the Khazar theory will never go away.

Yes. I am not sure why that is. Jewish Q1b (L245+) has also been suggested as a marker of the Khazars. But again, the subclade is shared with Assyrians and others (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?615-Assyrian-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=22028&viewfull=1#post22028). Including some Europeans, such as Sicilians (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?615-Assyrian-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=22060&viewfull=1#post22060).


The Q-L245 subclade has been previously dubbed the "Ashkenazi" Q1b branch. On the FTDNA Q1b page, men derived for Q-L245 consist of one or more individuals from the following groups (may not be exclusive): Jewish (Ashkenazi and Mizrahi), NW Europeans (Dutch, Irish and German), Armenian, Saudi, Iraqi, and Assyrian. Marko Heinila, I believe based on his most recent work, dates the Q-L245 TMRCA to 2600 years. Right about the time of the fall of the Neo-Assyrian empire. Perhaps a foreign element was introduced into the ME population at that time?

Táltos
12-18-2013, 08:24 PM
But the crypto-Jew explanation much more practical.


Yes. I am not sure why that is. Jewish Q1b (L245+) has also been suggested as a marker of the Khazars. But again, the subclade is shared with Assyrians and others (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?615-Assyrian-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=22028&viewfull=1#post22028). Including some Europeans, such as Sicilians (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?615-Assyrian-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=22060&viewfull=1#post22060).
And my brother has an exact 12 marker match to someone from Portugal at FTDNA, speaking of the Iberian Peninsula earlier. Also in the YHRD database they updated their populations and with my brother's markers at 12 and 25 level, his top exact match is to a Uighur. At the 37 level he has no exact match. I would really like to know more about this Uighur. Khazar or not, in my opinion I do not believe that Q1b1a started out Jewish, but became Jewish. And I would love to know how. The Khazar theory will remain of interest because so little is known of them, but also because some people will twist it for political propaganda. And I find the latter most annoying.

ADW_1981
12-18-2013, 08:29 PM
Yep. But definitely not from Khazars imo. More likely Z2124+ originated in Central Asia and migrated to West Asia and Z2122+ and M582+ developed in situ from West Asian R1a clades. But the Khazar theory will never go away.

Since Khazar DNA has never surfaced, and written evidence is scarce, how could you state this with any certainty? We're looking strictly at the Y chromosome, not the overall genetic profile of Levites, which is identical to other Ashkenazi populations, and is primarily a Mediterranean profile.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 08:41 PM
Since Khazar DNA has never surfaced, and written evidence is scarce, how could you state this with any certainty? We're looking strictly at the Y chromosome, not the overall genetic profile of Levites, which is identical to other Ashkenazi populations, and is primarily a Mediterranean profile.

Probably because not much M582+ was found in the North Caucasus and probably not much will be found in Central Asia. Z21224+ is unlikely to be a Khazar clade since its downstream lineage Z2123+ includes people as far away as Sri Lanka and England. And I believe Z2122+ is around the same age.

Dienekes agreed on his blog that the Levite clade is likely of an iraic origin and I believe Palisto has written similar theories on his blog.

I could ask you the same thing btw. Since no Khazar DNA as ever surfaced why associate a clade more common in Levites and West Asians with Khazars? So the Khazars left a lot of ancestry in West Asia but almost none in their homeland? Yes that sounds very likely.

ADW_1981
12-18-2013, 08:48 PM
Probably because not much M582+ was found in the North Caucasus and probably not much will be found in Central Asia. Z21224+ is unlikely to be a Khazar clade since its downstream lineage Z2123+ includes people as far away as Sri Lanka and England. And I believe Z2122+ is around the same age.

Dienekes agreed on his blog that the Levite clade is likely of an iraic origin and I believe Palisto has written similar theories on his blog.

I could ask you the same thing btw. Since no Khazar DNA as ever surfaced why associate a clade more common in Levites and West Asians with Khazars? So the Khazars left a lot of ancestry in West Asia but almost none in their homeland? Yes that sounds very likely.

What little information exists on the Khazars, Iranic people may have been part of the ruling elite, but by no means exculsively so. If this were true, it's amazing how far west they actually moved across the steppe to fight off the Arabs.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 09:10 PM
What little information exists on the Khazars, Iranic people may have been part of the ruling elite, but by no means exculsively so. If this were true, it's amazing how far west they actually moved across the steppe to fight off the Arabs.

Once again if this clade were part of the Khazar elite why is it better represented in West Asia and Levites than the areas we would expect it if were related to Khazars (Eastern Europe, Central Asia, and the North Caucasus)? The paper argued against the Khazar theory, David agrees with it, Dienekes does as well as does the Michal who is the administrator of the R1a project. So I am curious on what basis you think this clade is associated with Khazars or their Iranic ruling elite?

Humanist
12-18-2013, 09:20 PM
And my brother has an exact 12 marker match to someone from Portugal at FTDNA, speaking of the Iberian Peninsula earlier. Also in the YHRD database they updated their populations and with my brother's markers at 12 and 25 level, his top exact match is to a Uighur. At the 37 level he has no exact match. I would really like to know more about this Uighur. Khazar or not, in my opinion I do not believe that Q1b1a started out Jewish, but became Jewish. And I would love to know how. The Khazar theory will remain of interest because so little is known of them, but also because some people will twist it for political propaganda. And I find the latter most annoying.

The reason why I bring up Mesopotamia/Persia so often is because there are multiple lines of evidence pointing to this area as a possible source for the origin of at least a few Jewish Y-DNA lines. Given the complete record, I believe the more immediate origin of your paternal line may be from this general area (Mesopotamia/Persia) during the period between 500 BCE and 500 CE. As with the recently discussed Levite R1a line, your line may ultimately be of Central Asian origin.

Your Uyghur matches should most certainly be investigated further, so as to understand the relationship more precisely.

More on Uyghurs, from Wikipedia:


Modern scholars consider modern Uyghurs to be the descendants of a number of people, including the ancient Uyghurs of Mongolia who arrived at the Tarim Basin after the fall of Uyghur Khaganate, Iranian Saka tribes, and other Indo-European peoples who inhabited the Tarim Basin before the arrival of the Mongolian Uyghurs. DNA analyses indicate that the peoples of central Asia such as the Uyghurs are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian. Uyghur activists identify with the Tarim mummies, but research into the genetics of ancient Tarim mummies and their links with modern Uyghurs remain controversial, both to Chinese government officials concerned with ethnic separatism, and to Uyghur activists concerned that research could affect their claims of being indigenous to the region.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 09:26 PM
I read that Q1b apparently seems to be common among certain Brahmin groups as well. There has been some discussion connecting Q1b to the spread of Nestorian Christianity.

Humanist
12-18-2013, 09:29 PM
Relevant to the discussion is a comment made by Dr. Roy King on molgen.org in February of this year, regarding another Jewish line:


[J1]M7427 is from Kuwait and has a YSTR pattern very similar to but different from the Cohanim cluster. We should consider the possibility that the Cohanim are originally from a region near Kuwait or South Iraq. This area is close to the Babylonian center or even the Sumerians, all of whom had a priestly and scribal caste as well.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 09:39 PM
Relevant to the discussion is a comment made by Dr. Roy King on molgen.org in February of this year, regarding another Jewish line:

Could you post the link to that discussion?

Humanist
12-18-2013, 09:44 PM
Could you post the link to that discussion?

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=265

lgmayka
12-18-2013, 10:41 PM
And I believe Z2122+ is around the same age.
Z2122+ Y57+ now appears to be thinly spread across most of West Eurasia.
Z2122+ F1345+ F2935+ may have the same geographical range, though even thinner.

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 10:49 PM
Z2122+ Y57+ now appears to be thinly spread across most of West Eurasia.
Z2122+ F1345+ F2935+ may have the same geographical range, though even thinner.

What is your take on the origin of Z2122+? And its entry into the Levite gene pool?

Humanist
12-18-2013, 11:17 PM
I read that Q1b apparently seems to be common among certain Brahmin groups as well.

That is interesting. Do you have any studies you can refer me to, on the topic of Brahmin Q1b?

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 11:18 PM
That is interesting. Do you have any studies you can refer me to, on the topic of Brahmin Q1b?

I remember it being mentioned on one of the comments on DMXX's blog in the entry where he covered West Asian Q.

parasar
12-18-2013, 11:31 PM
Yep. But definitely not from Khazars imo. More likely Z2124+ originated in Central Asia and migrated to West Asia and Z2122+ and M582+ developed in situ from West Asian R1a clades. But the Khazar theory will never go away.

Do we know that Khazars did not have a Z2124+ component? After all, there is a good chance that they were related to the Kushans (cf. yavuga, yapku - troop leader). http://books.google.com/books?id=OOK-fBNwZ7kC&pg=PA32

Humanist
12-18-2013, 11:36 PM
I remember it being mentioned on one of the comments on DMXX's blog in the entry where he covered West Asian Q.

Here is a DMXX post, with some details on a Brahmin population carrying Q1b:


Posted on the minor Y-DNA R results just now but the full results can be viewed in this thread. Raw Y-STR haplotypes (17) put through Urasin's YPredictor. Only those results with >60% prediction probability shown.

These results are from Genetic polymorphisms for 17 Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in Jammu and Kashmir Saraswat Brahmin population by Yadav et al. (2010).

Kashmiri Brahmins have more Y-DNA haplogroup diversity and seem to have more of the markers one would expect from Near-Eastern populations (G2a-P15, J1c3-P58 etc.). Also worth pointing out both sets of Brahmins are over 10% "P-M45", which is interesting.



JSB KSB
n=58 n=54
C3-M217 1.9%
_DE-M1 5.2%
E1b1a1g-U175 1.9%
F-M89 1.7% 3.7%
G1*-M285(xP20) 3.7%
G2a-P15 1.9%
H*-M69(xM82) 1.7% 9.3%
H1a-M82 3.4% 1.9%
H-M69 1.7% 3.7%
J1*-M267*(xM365,L136) 1.9%
J1c3-P58 1.9%
J2a4-L26 8.6% 16.7%
L1c-M357 1.7% 3.7%
O3-M122 1.7%
P-M45 10.3% 18.5%
Q1a-MEH2 5.6%
Q1b-M378 6.9%
R1a1a1*-M17 48.3% 14.8%
R1b1*-P25*(xP297) 1.9%
R1b1b2-M269 1.7%
R2a-M124 6.9% 1.9%
R2a1*-L295(xL294) 5.6%


364365

newtoboard
12-18-2013, 11:50 PM
Do we know that Khazars did not have a Z2124+ component? After all, there is a good chance that they were related to the Kushans (cf. yavuga, yapku - troop leader). http://books.google.com/books?id=OOK-fBNwZ7kC&pg=PA32

Khazars=Turkic people, more concetrated in the Caspian regions
Kushans= Tocharian or Iranian speaking people who existed in regions more to the East and long before the Khazars

Michał
12-18-2013, 11:53 PM
Once again if this clade were part of the Khazar elite why is it better represented in West Asia and Levites than the areas we would expect it if were related to Khazars (Eastern Europe, Central Asia, and the North Caucasus)? The paper argued against the Khazar theory, David agrees with it, Dienekes does as well as does the Michal who is the administrator of the R1a project. So I am curious on what basis you think this clade is associated with Khazars or their Iranic ruling elite?


All above seems to be perfectly consistent with my Nethinim hypothesis that tries to explain the specific association between R1a-M582/Z2474 (or R1a-CTS6, as we used to call this clade in our project) and the (Ashkenazi) Levites. Finding an increased frequency of R1a-M582 among the Levites of both Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi origin is also consistent with my theory:
https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/theory-re-nethinim-origins

Generalissimo
12-18-2013, 11:55 PM
Do we know that Khazars did not have a Z2124+ component? After all, there is a good chance that they were related to the Kushans (cf. yavuga, yapku - troop leader). http://books.google.com/books?id=OOK-fBNwZ7kC&pg=PA32

It doesn't matter if the Khazars had Z2124 or even Z2122. This study establishes a tentative line going from the early steppe Z93 Iranians (see the phylogenetic tree) to the late Near Eastern M582 Iranians, and then a more convincing line going from these Near Eastern Iranians to Jews.

There's no need for Khazars or anyone else there. It's proto-Iranians > Near Eastern Iranians > Jews.

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 12:10 AM
Yea exactly what you would expect. Q1b among the Jammu Brahmins and Q1a among the Kashmiri Brahmins.

The P like DMXX said is interesting but is probably not actual P imo. Interesting occurrences of J1 and G1. Same for the P25, M269, O3, and DE (doubt it is actual DE)

Humanist
12-19-2013, 12:12 AM
Yea exactly what you would expect. Q1b among the Jammu Brahmins and Q1a among the Kashmiri Brahmins.

Why is that? I am not familiar with these groups.

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 12:16 AM
Why is that? I am not familiar with these groups.


Q1a seems more associated with Turkic elements according to DMXX. Kashmir has had more Central Asian influences (which is consistent with their elevated amounts of E, G and J1) than Jammu. IMO Kashmir an extension of Northern Pakistan but Jammu is an extension of Punjab.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 12:24 AM
LMAO, Wow, Jews have modern Iranian roots! Hitler and all other (neo-)NAZI’s are turning in their graves.

What a irony of fate! Jews with their Kurdic (Zagros-Aryan race) roots were killed by fake German wannabe Aryans, Hitler NAZI butchers etc. (please I don't mean this as an insult) because they were accused being Semitic and enemies of 'Aryans'.

Btw, I always believed that Jews were descendants of Aryans.


Lots of Jews share also 'Iranic' mtDNA with me..

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 12:27 AM
Some Jews do. Levites are not all Jews.

And there is no such thing as a "Zagros-Aryan" race.

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 12:29 AM
All above seems to be perfectly consistent with my Nethinim hypothesis that tries to explain the specific association between R1a-M582/Z2474 (or R1a-CTS6, as we used to call this clade in our project) and the (Ashkenazi) Levites. Finding an increased frequency of R1a-M582 among the Levites of both Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi origin is also consistent with my theory:
https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/theory-re-nethinim-origins

Seems likely to me.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 12:37 AM
Some Jews do. Levites are not all Jews.

And there is no such thing as a "Zagros-Aryan" race.Oh, there's such a race. Aryans FROM and native to the Zagros Mountains, mostly Kurds belong to that race. you can call it actually a 'Kurdic' race. There's also a lot of ''Kurdic' J2a among the Jewish priests (Conen)

There're also links between Ashkenazi and Brahmans. Brahmans priests of India have also lots of J2a. And 'voila' here is a link to the ancient Aryans.

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 12:42 AM
Oh, there's such a race. Aryans FROM and native to Zagros mountains, mostly Kurds belong to that race. you can call it actually a 'Kurdic' race. There's also a lot of J2a among the Jewish priests (Conen)

There're also links between Ashkenazi and Brahmans. Brahmans priests of India have also lots of J2a. And 'voila' here'a link to ancient Aryans.

This is the epitome of pseudoscience.

parasar
12-19-2013, 12:46 AM
Khazars=Turkic people, more concetrated in the Caspian regions
Kushans= Tocharian or Iranian speaking people who existed in regions more to the East and long before the Khazars

There were Khazirs reported quite early in Armenia in the same time-frame as the Kushans who quite likely were part Turkic.
Moses of Chorene(~450AD): "Rex autem aquilonarius appellatur Chacanus [Khan], qui est Chazirorum [Khazar] dominus, et regina vocatur Chathunia [Khatun] qua: est Chacani conjux ex Basiliorum [cf Kushan Basileos] gente orta" talking about a period about 200AD
Now Khan and Khatun is also Mogol, so at that time perhaps Mogols and Turks were the same.

Táltos
12-19-2013, 12:48 AM
Q1a seems more associated with Turkic elements according to DMXX. Kashmir has had more Central Asian influences (which is consistent with their elevated amounts of E, G and J1) than Jammu. IMO Kashmir an extension of Northern Pakistan but Jammu is an extension of Punjab.
Yes I wasn't sure what you meant either. This makes some sense to me, but I'm still not a 100% to understand as I am not too familiar with the region. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_region Here they talk about the name of the region being made up of Persian words and introduced by Turkic Muslim conquerors. Also in this thread is three Indians that are Q1b and had full Y sequences http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=1194 Some of the Nestorianism talk is there. I had seen it more so on the Russian version. They have an excellent section on Q at their forum.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 12:51 AM
This is the epitome of pseudoscience.Why? The Medes were the original inhabitants of the Zagros Mountain. They were called by others 'Aryans'. So native people of the Zagors Mountains were anciently described as Aryans. And now they found many links between Jews and natives of the Zagros Mountains. And some historians have been always saying that there are links between the Jews (priests, COHEN) and Brahman priests. If we can link Jews to Zagros mountains, via R1a AND 'Cohenian' J2a, we also can link Brahmans to Zagors indirectly through the Jews. Brahman priests do also have some J2a.


With all due respect but you're the master of pseudoscience. You brought pseudoscience to a higher level.

Táltos
12-19-2013, 01:01 AM
There were Khazirs reported quite early in Armenia in the same time-frame as the Kushans who quite likely were part Turkic.
Moses of Chorene(~450AD): "Rex autem aquilonarius appellatur Chacanus [Khan], qui est Chazirorum [Khazar] dominus, et regina vocatur Chathunia [Khatun] qua: est Chacani conjux ex Basiliorum [cf Kushan Basileos] gente orta" talking about a period about 200AD
Now Khan and Khatun is also Mogol, so at that time perhaps Mogols and Turks were the same.
I bolded this part as I have been thinking this myself. I had been told by my father and his father (my paternal grandfather) that we are Lithuanian, Polish, and had Mongolian ancestry. Never told that we had been Jewish. Really I can't understand what the big whoop would be to tell us we had been Jewish, but to opt to say that we had been Mongolian instead? We had plenty of Jewish people in the area where I grew up. Another interesting thing, there are two Q1b1a that are from Dagestan. One is listed as an Avar and the other a Kaitak.

parasar
12-19-2013, 01:02 AM
All above seems to be perfectly consistent with my Nethinim hypothesis that tries to explain the specific association between R1a-M582/Z2474 (or R1a-CTS6, as we used to call this clade in our project) and the (Ashkenazi) Levites. Finding an increased frequency of R1a-M582 among the Levites of both Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi origin is also consistent with my theory:
https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/theory-re-nethinim-origins

The paper posits the M582 in non-Ashkenazi Levites potentially to the Ashkenazi Levites.


Among non-Ashkenazi Jews, R1a-M582 was observed only in Levites, and the observed sub-haplogroup shares the same STR signature as that seen in Ashkenazi Levites. A few demographic scenarios can account for this observation. Clearly, a joint Levantine origin before the Diaspora split into the Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews must be considered. Under this scenario, this particular R1a-M582 Levite lineage existed among the ancient Hebrews and was carried to the various Jewish Diaspora communities in a manner similar to that of the Cohen Modal Haplotype21, 22, 23. However, recent studies of genome-wide diversity point to recent shared Levant ancestries and a close genetic proximity among members of Ashkenazi, North African and Spanish Exile Jewish communities17, 36, 37. Similarly, some of the mitochondrial DNA Ashkenazi founding lineages are also found among Spanish Exiles20. Therefore, another possible scenario is that of continuous gene flow between Ashkenazi, North African and Spanish Exile Jewish communities. Under this scenario, Ashkenazi Levites must have repeatedly and episodically introgressed into non-Ashkenazi communities, maintaining their Levite status while abandoning their Ashkenazi affiliation.

Humanist
12-19-2013, 01:05 AM
Why? The Medes were the original inhabitants of the Zagros Mountain.

How is that possible?

An Assyrian View on the Medes (https://www.academia.edu/441280/2003_An_Assyrian_View_on_the_Medes._In_G._B._Lanfr anchi_M._Roaf_and_R._Rollinger_ed._Continuity_of_E mpire_Assyria_Media_Persia._History_of_the_Ancient _Near_East_Monographs_5_Padova_2003_37-64). In G. B. Lanfranchi, M. Roaf & R. Rollinger (ed.), Continuity of Empire: Assyria, Media, Persia. History of the Ancient Near East Monographs 5 (Padova 2003) 37-64.

By Karen Radner

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/shalmaneserIII.jpg

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 01:18 AM
How is that possible?

An Assyrian View on the Medes (https://www.academia.edu/441280/2003_An_Assyrian_View_on_the_Medes._In_G._B._Lanfr anchi_M._Roaf_and_R._Rollinger_ed._Continuity_of_E mpire_Assyria_Media_Persia._History_of_the_Ancient _Near_East_Monographs_5_Padova_2003_37-64). In G. B. Lanfranchi, M. Roaf & R. Rollinger (ed.), Continuity of Empire: Assyria, Media, Persia. History of the Ancient Near East Monographs 5 (Padova 2003) 37-64.

By Karen Radner

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/shalmaneserIII.jpgWhy is that so strange? The Medes (and orher Iranic folks) were also mentioned by the ancient Indo-European Greek historians, not only by Assyrians. The Medes were descendants of Mittani/Matiene and Mannaens. Mittani never disappeared. Descendants of Mittani became later on known as the Medes. Like Kurds, who are direct descents of the Medes, became known as Kurds.

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 01:20 AM
Why is that so strange? The Medes (and orher Iranic) were also mentioned by the ancient Indo-European Greek historians, not only by Assyrians. The Medes were descendants of Mittani/Matiene and Mannaens. Mittani never disappeared. Descendants of Mittani became later on know as the Medes. Like Kurds, who are direct descents of the Medes, became known as Kurds

Every linguist agress the Mittani were not Iranic speaking.

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 01:24 AM
Why? The Medes were the original inhabitants of the Zagros Mountain. They were called by others 'Aryans'. So native people of the Zagors Mountains were anciently described as Aryans. And now they found many links between Jews and natives of the Zagros Mountains. And some historians have been always saying that there are links between the Jews (priests, COHEN) and Brahman priests. If we can link Jews to Zagros mountains, via R1a AND 'Cohenian' J2a, we also can link Brahmans to Zagors indirectly through the Jews. Brahman priests do also have some J2a.


With all due respect but you're the master of pseudoscience. You brought pseudoscience to a higher level.

I'm the master of pseudoscience? You are the one arguing Iranian languages originated in West Asia even though PIE developed on the steppe. And then declaring there is an Zagros-Aryan race. Can you tell us more about this race?

J2a exists in West Asia, the Caucasus, North Africa, Southern Europe, South Asia, and Central Asia and nothing really links the people carrying them them other than them belonging to a lineage likely spread in the Neolithic.

Humanist
12-19-2013, 01:24 AM
Why is that so strange. The Medes (and orher Iranic) were also mentioned by the ancient Greek historians The Medes were descendants of Mittani/Matiene and Mannaens. Mittani never disappeared. Descendants of Mittani became later on know as the Medes. Like Kurds, who are direct descents of the Medes, became known as Kurds

Ancient Greek historians postdate the Black Obelisk.

What is your source for Mitanni = Medes?

Wikipedia


Within a few centuries of the fall of Washshukanni to Assyria, Mitanni became fully Assyrianized and linguistically Aramaized, and use of the Hurrian language began to be discouraged throughout the Neo-Assyrian Empire. However, Urartean, a dialect closely related to Hurrian seems to have survived in the new state of Urartu, in the mountainous areas to the north.[17] In the 10th to 9th century BC inscriptions of Adad-nirari II and Shalmaneser III, Hanigalbat is still used as a geographical term.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 01:27 AM
Every linguist agress the Mittani were not Iranic speaking.Why? Because of the names of some so called 'Vedic' Gods?

Mittani were most probalby proto-Iranians, 'Indo-Iranian'. And not Indic or Vedic at all. Their deities like Mitra, Varuna, Indra etc. were actually derived from the Mithraism. And Mithraism is originally from the Sumerians.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 01:30 AM
Ancient Greek historians postdate the Black Obelisk.

What is your source for Mitanni = Medes?

WikipediaLol, give me a break. Wikipedia, without any reference within that page...

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 01:31 AM
Lol, give me a break. Wikipedia, without any reference within that page...

And your references are?

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 01:33 AM
What is your source for Mitanni = Medes?WikipediaAncient 'Aryan' religion. Sumerians, Mittani, Medes, (Ezdi) Kurds are all 'SUN' worshippers. Mithraism developed from the Sumerians through the Mittani, Medes, Kurds etc. They all share an West Iranian language with each other

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 01:34 AM
And your references are?HOLA!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wn623TlM98

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 01:36 AM
Why? Because of the names of some so called 'Vedic' Gods?

Mittani were most probalby proto-Iranians, 'Indo-Iranian'. And not Indic or Vedic at all. Their deities like Mitra, Varuna, Indra etc. were actually derived from the Mithraism. And Mithraism is originally from the Sumerians.

Because every linguist agrees with it. How can the Mittani be derived from Mithraism when they predate it by 1500 years?

Generalissimo
12-19-2013, 01:36 AM
Ancient 'Aryan' religion. Sumerians, Mittani, Medes, (Ezdi) Kurds are all 'SUN' worshippers. Mithraism developed from the Sumerians through the Mittani, Medes, Kurds etc. They all share an West Iranian language with each other

Iranians aren't native to the Near East or South Asia. They came from the steppe.


Although the modern Afghan population is made up of ethnically and linguistically diverse groups, the similarity of the underlying gene pool and its underlying gene flows from West and East Eurasia and from South Asia is consistent with prehistoric post-glacial expansions, such as an eastward migration of humans out of the Fertile Crescent in the early Neolithic period, and the arrival of northern steppe nomads speaking the Indo-Iranian variety of Indo-European languages. Taken together, these events led to the creation of a common genetic substratum that has been veneered with relatively recent cultural and linguistic differences.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076748

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 01:36 AM
Ancient religion of the Kurds, before most Kurds became Muslims, the Yezidism/Mithraism is connected to the Medes, Mittani and the Sumerians! I've still that ancient religion of the Kurds!

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 01:38 AM
Because every linguist agrees with it. How can the Mittani be derived from Mithraism when they predate it by 1500 years?NEIN, this German ACADEMIC is saying that Mithraism or ANCIENT ARYAN religion of the Kurds is VERY old! Predate the Mittani!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wn623TlM98

Humanist
12-19-2013, 01:40 AM
Lol, give me a break. Wikipedia, without any reference within that page...

I did not write the Wikipedia piece, but it may be Simo Parpola (citing Rollig).


The long-term strategic goal of Assyria thus was not the creation of an empire upheld by arms, but a nation united by a semi-divine king perceived as the source of safety, peace and prosperity. As we have seen, this goal was achieved through a systematically implemented assimilation and integration policy geared to delete the ethnic identities of the conquered peoples and to replace them with an Assyrian one. The efficacy of this policy is strikingly demonstrated by the fate of the tens of thousands of Hurrians who were deported from their homeland and resettled in Assyria in the middle Assyrian period. A few centuries later, the descendants of these people had been so completely absorbed into the Assyrian society that no trace of their Hurrian ancestry, except for a few garbled personal names, remains in the Neo-Assyrian sources (Rollig 1996). They now were in every respect ethnic Assyrians, indistinguishable from their fellow citizens.

Wikipedia


Mitanni (Hittite cuneiform KUR URUMi-ta-an-ni, also Mittani Mi-it-ta-ni) or Hanigalbat (Assyrian Hanigalbat, Khanigalbat cuneiform Ḫa-ni-gal-bat) was an Hurrian-speaking state in northern Syria and south-east Anatolia from ca. 1500 BC–1300 BC. Founded by an Indo-Aryan ruling class governing a predominately Hurrian population, Mitanni came to be a regional power after the Hittite destruction of Amorite[1] Babylon and a series of ineffectual Assyrian kings created a power vacuum in Mesopotamia.

parasar
12-19-2013, 01:44 AM
Why is that so strange? The Medes (and orher Iranic folks) were also mentioned by the ancient Indo-European Greek historians, not only by Assyrians. The Medes were descendants of Mittani/Matiene and Mannaens. Mittani never disappeared. Descendants of Mittani became later on known as the Medes. Like Kurds, who are direct descents of the Medes, became known as Kurds.

In fact the Medes were likely exactly the same as the Mitanni as there is no evidence of a later Mede empire either in Scythia or in Iran. So it is my thinking that's a small error on Herodotus' part.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 01:44 AM
I did not write the Wikipedia piece, but it may be Simo Parpola.This text is talking about the Hurrians and not about the Mittani. Maybe R1b in Assyrians is from the Hurrians, because Armenians are known to be descendants of Urartu/Hurrians and you both share R1b.
And I'm NOT denying that modern-day Assyrians have some Hurrian input in them


Mittani were most probably R1a & J2a folks...

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 01:48 AM
I'm the master of pseudoscience? You are the one arguing Iranian languages originated in West Asia even though PIE developed on the steppe.WRONG again. Even Russia ACADEMIA doesn't agree with you!

PIE is from West Asia!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0FflO5j-TI&feature=player_embedded


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKlGCc0xhv8&feature=player_embedded


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh1OzBsqZtk&feature=player_embedded

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 01:56 AM
In fact the Medes were likely exactly the same as the Mitanni as there is no evidence of a later Mede empire either in Scythia or in Iran. So it is my thinking that's a small error on Herodotus' part.According to Herodotus the Medes and Persians were darker than Indo-European Hellenic people. Herodotus wrote that the Medes were first known as 'Aryans' and that later on they changed their name and became part of 'Umman Manda'. Mittani were 'Aryan' people too. People that belonged to 'Umman Manda' were Cimmerians (Iranized European people) , Medes (Iranian people), some Chaldeans (Babylonian - Semitic people) and some Scythians (???). And modenr Kurds are mostly descendants of those 'Umman Manda'.

Generalissimo
12-19-2013, 01:57 AM
PIE is from West Asia!

It can't be, because Neolithic farmers didn't speak Indo-European. They spoke other languages which survived as substrata in various Indo-European languages which came later.

But these Indo-European languages didn't come from the Near East, because during the Copper Age the European genetic structure shifted from Near Eastern-like to modern European. See here...

http://www.sciencemagazinedigital.org/sciencemagazine/11_october_2013?pg=134#pg131

So the Neolithic PIE hypothesis is dead as a dodo, and the Bronze Age West Asian PIE hypothesis never had time to get off the ground before being shot down.

Michał
12-19-2013, 01:58 AM
The paper posits the M582 in non-Ashkenazi Levites potentially to the Ashkenazi Levites.
I would need to see their STR haplotypes (or full Y-DNA sequencing results) to evaluate this. The authors mention similar STR signatures in both these groups but do not provide enough data to exclude that they are relatively closely related but still separate subgroupings (for example with MRCA clearly predating the appearance of the Ashkenazi community).

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 02:01 AM
It can't be, because Neolithic farmers didn't speak Indo-European. They spoke other languages which survived as substrata in various Indo-European languages which came later.

But these Indo-European languages didn't come from the Near East, because during the Copper Age the European genetic structure shifted from Near Eastern-like to modern European. See here...

http://www.sciencemagazinedigital.org/sciencemagazine/11_october_2013?pg=134#pg131

So the Neolithic PIE hypothesis is dead as a dodo, and the Bronze Age West Asian PIE hypothesis never had time to get off the ground before being shot down.Nobody knows which language the Neolithic farmers spoke!!!


But I believe that Maykop people linguistically Indo-Europized the Yamna horizon peoples. Maykop predates Yamna, fact! And Maykop peoples came from West Asia! There're thousands of proves (genetically, archeologically, culturally) that Maykop folks came from West Asia, not far from the Caspian Sea

Generalissimo
12-19-2013, 02:08 AM
Nobody knows which language the Neolithic farmers spoke!!!

We know for a fact it wasn't Indo-European.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 02:19 AM
We know for a fact it wasn't Indo-European.Well, at that time the writing system didn't exist. We don't know the position of the languages spoken by the Neolithic farmers in relation to later yet to be evolved proto-IEan.

DMXX
12-19-2013, 02:30 AM
Hello everyone,

Please remember to structure arguments with something from scientific literature to maximise the scope of the discussion beyond mindless anecdote conflicts. The merit of the arguments through expert research, rather than the veracity or claims or forceful language, should be considered foremost.

Translation - A couple of citations and links would be appreciated. Though we haven't headed in that direction yet, posts containing one-line quips will be deleted by the staff in line with forum policy.

Thanks for your attention.

Generalissimo
12-19-2013, 02:32 AM
Well, at that time the writing system didn't exist. We don't know the position of the languages spoken by the Neolithic farmers in relation to later yet to be evolved proto-IEan.

No, linguists are very clear on the issue: Neolithic farmers didn't speak Indo-European.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0asQ4IrwUIg&list=PLAXoDomeFLX90fTHi0W8lYBtEoZHSBH2i&index=13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFZhWfL0ocY&list=PLAXoDomeFLX90fTHi0W8lYBtEoZHSBH2i&index=13

As for Maykop, well that came from the Near East, and Indo-European languages aren't native to the Near East.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 02:42 AM
No, linguists are very clear on the issue: Neolithic farmers didn't speak Indo-European.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0asQ4IrwUIg&list=PLAXoDomeFLX90fTHi0W8lYBtEoZHSBH2i&index=13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFZhWfL0ocY&list=PLAXoDomeFLX90fTHi0W8lYBtEoZHSBH2i&index=13

As for Maykop, well that came from the Near East, and Indo-European languages aren't native to the Near East.

"The calibrated radiocarbon dates suggest that the Maikop culture seems to have had a formative influence on kurgan burial rituals and what now appears to be the later Pit-Grave (Yamnaya) culture on the Eurasian steppe (Chernykh and Orlovskaya 2004a: 97)."

http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511605376&cid=CBO9780511605376A014

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Maykop_culture-en.svg/400px-Maykop_culture-en.svg.png

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 02:45 AM
"The calibrated radiocarbon dates suggest that the Maikop culture seems to have had a formative influence on kurgan burial rituals and what now appears to be the later Pit-Grave (Yamnaya) culture on the Eurasian steppe (Chernykh and Orlovskaya 2004a: 97)."

http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511605376&cid=CBO9780511605376A014

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Maykop_culture-en.svg/400px-Maykop_culture-en.svg.png

So PIE speakers on the steppe had cultural influence from the south? Most people have influence from their neighbors. Doesn't mean they always adopt their language.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 02:46 AM
Early Cultures of the Lands ofthe Scythians

Adapted from a Russian text by Boris Piotrovsky

The State Hermitage Museum, Leningrad

The Maikop Culture -> Early Cultures of the Lands of the Scythians


http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.metmuseum.org%2Fpubs%2Fbullet ins%2F1%2Fpdf%2F3269231.pdf.bannered.pdf&ei=912yUu7kJcXmywP1_oGoDA&usg=AFQjCNFFi29Ww6fadT9Wx_FUO8x26oW2BQ&sig2=aMHUX5WHfnXWmJ8IZ3pHTw&bvm=bv.58187178,d.Yms&cad=rja

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 02:50 AM
So PIE speakers on the steppe had cultural influence from the south? Most people have influence from their neighbors. Doesn't mean they always adopt their language.Dude, you know better than the academia, right? It's hopeless. You're in denial. Even if we go back into ancient times with a time machine you will disagree.

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 02:53 AM
Dude, you know better that the academia, right? it's hopeless. You're in denial. Even if go back into ancient times with a time machine you will disagree.

Maybe there are other academics who don't agree with that theory. I don't why one Russian academic arguing for a West Asian origin somehow takes importance over the majority who believe in a steppe homeland.

lgmayka
12-19-2013, 02:56 AM
What is your take on the origin of Z2122+? And its entry into the Levite gene pool?
Second question first: Michał's Nethinim theory of a Babylonian Exile origin now looks like the winner.

Z2122+ Y57+ now appears to be common enough across Europe, from England to Russia, to suggest a steppe origin. Even Z2122+ F1345+ F2935+ now appears to have originated on the steppe IMHO, although we only have about 3 independent examples so far (a Scot, a Pole, and a Chinese!).

In other words, F1345 appears to have split into:
- F2935 which stayed on the steppe, and
- M582 which went south into (what is now) Iran.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 02:57 AM
Maybe there are other academics who don't agree with that theory. I don't why one Russian academic arguing for a West Asian origin somehow takes importance over the majority who believe in a steppe homeland.
Which majority may I ask you? Most academics I do follow, from West or Russia, are saying that PIE is from West Asia!

Generalissimo
12-19-2013, 03:29 AM
Which majority may I ask you? Most academics I do follow, from West or Russia, are saying that PIE is from West Asia!

They obviously didn't make it to this meeting...

http://www.youtube.com/user/2mmel2t/videos

Or this...


In 2012, the widely supported theory that the Indo-European languages reached Europe during a Bronze Age expansion wave from the Ukrainian steppes was challenged once more by the rival Out-of-Anatolia hypothesis. This hypothesis, which claims that the Indo-Europeans spread from Anatolia in the wake of agriculture, gained world-wide media attention after its implementation in a new model for language expansions. Meanwhile, current research on the pre-Indo-European loanwords in Germanic, Celtic, Greek and Latin reveals that the separate Indo-European dialects borrowed a significant part of their agricultural terminology from extinct Neolithic languages. This seems to suggest that the Indo-Europeans and the earliest European farmers were two culturally and linguistically distinct groups.

http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/conference/2013_talking_neolithic

Humanist
12-19-2013, 04:12 AM
I have stated what my opinion is on the possible origin of the Askhenazi Levite R1a line. So, the bit below is inconsistent with my opinion. However, it is a part of the total record, and thus should be considered.



In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes. (II Kings 17:3-6)


And the king of Assyria did carry away Israel unto Assyria and put them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes: because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God, but transgressed his covenant, and all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded and would not hear them, nor do them. (II Kings 18:11-12)

Generalissimo
12-19-2013, 04:22 AM
I have stated what my opinion is on the possible origin of the Askhenazi Levite R1a line. So, the bit below is inconsistent with my opinion. However, it is a part of the total record, and thus should be considered.

How is that inconsistent though? What if some of them returned to Israel...and brought with them a few Medes converts. Or am I not getting something?

AJL
12-19-2013, 04:42 AM
I would need to see their STR haplotypes (or full Y-DNA sequencing results) to evaluate this. The authors mention similar STR signatures in both these groups but do not provide enough data to exclude that they are relatively closely related but still separate subgroupings (for example with MRCA clearly predating the appearance of the Ashkenazi community).

Analysis by Full Genomes suggests M582 is the same as Z2474.

Humanist
12-19-2013, 04:54 AM
How is that inconsistent though? What if some of them returned to Israel...and brought with them a few Medes converts. Or am I not getting something?

Hi, Generalissimo. What I meant by being inconsistent was that my opinion was that the line was probably not originally Israelite (or Judean), and may have first entered the Jewish community in Mesopotamia/Persia. However, the bits from the Bible, if true, may suggest the possibility that this particular R1a subclade entered "the cities of the Medes" via the deportation of the Israelites.

Just a bit of background, because I know many folks are not completely familiar with the history. I know I was not, until a few years ago.

The Assyrians were responsible for the demise of Israel (see the 10 Lost Tribes story). At the time of the deportation of the Israelites, Judah remained loyal to Assyria*. A century or so later, the Babylonians were responsible for the demise and deportation of the Judeans. It is these latter Judeans who were supposedly permitted to return to their native land, after the Persians conquered Babylon.

http://bibleresources.americanbible.org/content/images/The_Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah__1_2_4152.jpg


*
One can even say the Judeans played a very significant part in Israel's demise, if this account from the Bible is to be believed:


Ahaz sent messengers to say to Tiglath-pileser king of Assyria, 'I am your servant and vassal. Come up and save me out of the hand of the king of Aram (i.e. Damascus) and of the king of Israel, who are attacking me'. And Ahaz took silver and gold... and sent it as a gift to the king of Assyria. The king of Assyria complied. (2 Kings 16:7-9)

AJL
12-19-2013, 05:02 AM
Z2122+ Y57+ now appears to be common enough across Europe, from England to Russia, to suggest a steppe origin. Even Z2122+ F1345+ F2935+ now appears to have originated on the steppe IMHO, although we only have about 3 independent examples so far (a Scot, a Pole, and a Chinese!).

In other words, F1345 appears to have split into:
- F2935 which stayed on the steppe, and
- M582 which went south into (what is now) Iran.

I am tempted to speculate on the Chinese man having Uyghur or similar origins (which is something that no Chinese academic institution would mention for political reasons), and so it being a link through the Steppe.

parasar
12-19-2013, 05:19 AM
How is that inconsistent though? What if some of them returned to Israel...and brought with them a few Medes converts. Or am I not getting something?

Where is the M582 in Israel though except for Ashkenazi and Ashkenazi influenced? Israel 0/363

It is more prevalent in the Turkic influenced regions - Azeri and Kerman.

After 1040 more nomadic or seminomadic Türkmen moved across Iran into the Jibal region, Azerbaijan, and Armenia; others migrated southward into Kerman
http://books.google.com/books?id=9HUDXkJIE3EC&pg=PA53

The M582 in the Azeri (a Khazar establishment cf the Sea of Khazars and near the region of the Arab/Khazar battle) especially is noteworthy in contract* with the rest of north Iran which has 0/336 M582.

*Edit: contrast

Rathna
12-19-2013, 05:31 AM
One can even say the Judeans played a very significant part in Israel's demise, if this account from the Bible is to be believed:

The real history of what happened is well explained by "The invention of the Jewish people" of Shlomo Sand, but, also after many years, I am seeing that no one takes in consideration that history and all the archaeology beyond it.

parasar
12-19-2013, 05:45 AM
Where is the M582 in Israel though except for Ashkenazi and Ashkenazi influenced? Israel 0/363

It is more prevalent in the Turkic influenced regions - Azeri and Kerman.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9HUDXkJIE3EC&pg=PA53

The M582 in the Azeri (a Khazar establishment cf the Sea of Khazars and near the region of the Arab/Khazar battle) especially is noteworthy in contract with the rest of north Iran which has 0/336 M582.


Azeris are mainly Shi'a Muslims and are the largest ethnic group in Iran after the Persians. The name “Azeri” is a Turkified form of “Azari” and the latter is derived from the Old Iranian name for the region of Azerbaijan in North-West Iran. The Azari people likely derive from ancient Iranic tribes, such as the Medians in Iranian Azerbaijan. Azari was the dominant language there before it was replaced in many regions by the Turkic language. It was spoken in most of Azerbaijan at least up to the 17th century, with the number of speakers decreasing since the 11th century due to the Turkification of the area. During the time of the Mongol invasion, most of the invading armies were composed of Turkic tribes, which increased the influence of Turkish in the region. Today, the Azari language is completely replaced by Turkish or Azeri language. The question remains whether this language replacement happened with Turkish people gene flow or it happened simply as a result of acculturation without gene flow.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

Generalissimo
12-19-2013, 05:53 AM
Where is the M582 in Israel though except for Ashkenazi and Ashkenazi influenced?

You do realize though that we're probably talking about a chance event here, which seems to have included the following: a single Iranian-speaking individual from the Near East converting to Judaism; one of his descendants moving west via the Mediterranean into Europe; someone from that pedigree giving rise somewhere in Europe to all of the Levite M582 present today.

If so, then what's point of looking for M582 in Israel? It's probably there, along with Z2122, Z2124 and other Iranian markers, if we look hard enough, but it doesn't need to be there.

Humanist
12-19-2013, 07:12 AM
This is not a new DNA paper, but it is relevant to our recent discussion. This is a bit from Harry Ostrer's 2012 book, "Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People (http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Genetic-History-Jewish-People/dp/0195379616)."

Figure 2.7: Early Timeline showing coalescence of founder mutations and comparing these with events in Jewish history

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/tay_sachs_disease_ostrer_fig2_7.jpg


And, although it may not be of much significance, a study I came across a few years ago:

Screening for Carriers of Tay-Sachs Disease among Ashkenazi Jews — A Comparison of DNA-Based and Enzyme-Based Tests.
Triggs-Raine et al. 1990


Our DNA analyses of obligate carriers of Tay-Sachs disease identified all the common mutations known to cause the disease in the Ashkenazi population. The three known mutations accounted for 98 percent (61 of 62) of the mutant alleles in the group of Ashkenazi obligate carriers. The frequency of identified mutations increases to 99 percent (93 of 94) of the alleles of all patients and carriers, or to 99 percent (78 of 79) of the alleles of all patients with infantile disease, if other obligate carriers described in the literature are included. These mutations were not restricted to the Ashkenazi population, since the insertion mutation was found in four non-Ashkenazi subjects, and the exon 7 mutation in a non-Ashkenazi (described as Assyrian) patient.

Generalissimo
12-19-2013, 07:17 AM
Let's say that this one convert who introduced Z2122 (and thus M582) into the Jewish population was indeed a Khazar.

So does that mean the Khazar hypothesis is alive and well? Not really; I'd say what we have in that case is the Khazar accident.

Humanist
12-19-2013, 08:06 AM
The real history of what happened is well explained by "The invention of the Jewish people" of Shlomo Sand, but, also after many years, I am seeing that no one takes in consideration that history and all the archaeology beyond it.

Believe me, I have come to question a great deal of the accepted Judeo-Christian narrative over the past few years. However, Shlomo Sand is very much wrong in his opinion that Jews are "a mix of groups who have adopted the Jewish religion, primarily descending from the medieval Eurasian state of Khazaria."

Rathna
12-19-2013, 08:55 AM
Believe me, I have come to question a great deal of the accepted Judeo-Christian narrative over the past few years. However, Shlomo Sand is very much wrong in his opinion that Jews are "a mix of groups who have adopted the Jewish religion, primarily descending from the medieval Eurasian state of Khazaria."

Humanist, I wasn't referring to this (even though the intake of Khazars in the Jewish pool shouldn't be dismissed, and also on this R1a/M582 it seems to me that parasar is supporting it and with not bad arguments, and I discussed a lot about the mtDNA J1b1b1, present largely also on the last paper about the Iranian pool beyond the known Buryats and also some Europeans).
I was referring to the two Kingdoms of Israel and Judah and the reliability of the Bible about that that Sand and many historians, above all of Jewish origin, put in doubt. And I don't want to deepen the question here.

Humanist
12-19-2013, 09:16 AM
I was referring to the two Kingdoms of Israel and Judah and the reliability of the Bible about that that Sand and many historians, above all of Jewish origin, put in doubt. And I don't want to deepen the question here.

OK. Well we can agree on that point. However, it is not exclusive to the Jews. The study of Christians and Christianity is filled with much of the same. And yes, we should not continue this discussion here. You are more than welcome to create a thread in the appropriate section if you would like to discuss this further.

lgmayka
12-19-2013, 10:59 AM
I am tempted to speculate on the Chinese man having Uyghur or similar origins (which is something that no Chinese academic institution would mention for political reasons), and so it being a link through the Steppe.
That is my suspicion also.

Rathna
12-19-2013, 11:05 AM
OK. Well we can agree on that point. However, it is not exclusive to the Jews. The study of Christians and Christianity is filled with much of the same. And yes, we should not continue this discussion here. You are more than welcome to create a thread in the appropriate section if you would like to discuss this further.

Of course I agree with you about Christianity and all the other religions. Perhaps who knows me knows that I am not a believer. I thank you for this offer, but I have no intention to discuss this argument here, thinking that our interest is genetics and to know our true origin and history by a scientific point of view.
I answer your posting only because that passage from the Bible seemed to give reason to the theories of the book I quoted. Also books are like DNA, full of mutations, insertions and deletions, junks, and I am interested only to reconstruct the code.

Michał
12-19-2013, 11:15 AM
I am tempted to speculate on the Chinese man having Uyghur or similar origins (which is something that no Chinese academic institution would mention for political reasons), and so it being a link through the Steppe.
It should be noted that this Chinese F2935+ sample and a Geno2-tested sample form Kazakhstan belong to a specific "Eastern" subclade of F2935 called F1019, while the two remaining F2935 cases (from Scotland and Poland/Ukraine) are negative for F1019.

Michał
12-19-2013, 11:23 AM
Analysis by Full Genomes suggests M582 is the same as Z2474.
Yes, this information has been previously posted by Maximus/Centurion on the Molgen forum. Also, Semargl has just made an analysis of those SNP results reported by Rootsi and here are links to his schemes that illustrate it:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1VTRRQ09yWWFRN1k/edit?pli=1
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1Q1FFbk90NTBHd1k/edit?pli=1

Here is a link to his comment (in Russian):
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,6435.msg215428.html#msg215428

Michał
12-19-2013, 11:28 AM
I would need to see their STR haplotypes (or full Y-DNA sequencing results) to evaluate this.
This is what I've just posted on this subject on the Molgen forum:

I have just looked at the STR haplotypes from the supplementary file attached to the the paper by Rootsi et al., and the Middle Eastern samples include at least two potential subclades of M582 (both parallel to the potential Ashkenazi Levite subclade of M582). One of those potential subclades (let's call it subclade B ) includes all three Kurdish samples (two from Turkey and one from Kazakhstan), three (out of six) Iranian Azeri samples and one Iranian Kerman sample. The other potential subclade (let's call it subclade C) seems to be smaller and includes all three remaining Iranian Azeri samples. The four unclustered M582 members from Middle East include two Iranian Kerman samples (possibly distantly related to subclade A), one Nogay sample and one Gilan sample from Iran. Also, the Iberian sample from the 1KG project should be included into this unclustered group, which is actually seen on the Fig. 1b from the paper.

As for the non-Ashkenazi Levite haplotypes, they are evidently closely related to the Ashkenazi ones, but it is hard to say whether they are just a part of the Ashkenazi Levite group or constitute a very closely related (or only partially overlapping) grouping. For example, they show slightly increased frequency of DYS390=24, which may be either coincidental (as such results are also occasionally seen among the Ashkenazi Levites) or related to the existence of some potential non-Ashkenazi subclade (very closely related to the Ashkenazi Levites). Full Y-DNA sequencing would definitely help us solve this question.

ADW_1981
12-19-2013, 02:26 PM
Where is the M582 in Israel though except for Ashkenazi and Ashkenazi influenced? Israel 0/363

It is more prevalent in the Turkic influenced regions - Azeri and Kerman.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9HUDXkJIE3EC&pg=PA53

The M582 in the Azeri (a Khazar establishment cf the Sea of Khazars and near the region of the Arab/Khazar battle) especially is noteworthy in contract with the rest of north Iran which has 0/336 M582.

Agreed. Nothing against the M582 folks but R1a was likely never (substantial) among Canaanites or Hebrews, or any other Levantine population. The positive selection of this branch among Levites is linked to a particular event, and an Iranic/Alan source from the steppe seems the likeliest possibility. I also would not necessarily think M582 would be exceedingly common today. Remember that this is likely 1 male who survived, or possible a small handful of closely related males. For all intents and purposes other remaining lineages could have died out.

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 02:30 PM
Agreed. Nothing against the M582 folks but R1a was likely never (substantial) among Canaanites or Hebrews, or any other Levantine population. The positive selection of this branch among Levites is linked to a particular event, and an Iranic/Alan source from the steppe seems the likeliest possibility.

An ultimate origin in the steppe or Central Asia for Z2122+ seems correct but M582+ could have originated in the Near East.

ADW_1981
12-19-2013, 02:40 PM
An ultimate origin in the steppe or Central Asia for Z2122+ seems correct but M582+ could have originated in the Near East.

Near East referring to somewhere in Persia, we should be clear. I was never suggesting it had to be Khazar, just stating that was still a very valid possibility since that is one of the only agreed upon conversion events. Otherwise, the only hypothesis in Persia is via Babylonian exile, and there is no corroborating evidence from ancient Canaan or the Levant outside of 19th/20th century Israel.

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 02:41 PM
Near East referring to somewhere in Persia, we should be clear.

Yes I did mean somewhere in an Iranic speaking region.

lgmayka
12-19-2013, 03:11 PM
It should be noted that this Chinese F2935+ sample and a Geno2-tested sample form Kazakhstan belong to a specific "Eastern" subclade of F2935 called F1019, while the two remaining F2935 cases (from Scotland and Poland/Ukraine) are negative for F1019.
Just to be more precise: The Polish/Ukrainian F2935 has not actually been tested for F1019, as far as I know. Michał is, I think, predicting his status based on a degree of haplotype (STR) similarity with the Scottish F2935, who has been tested by Geno 2.0.

The R1a1a and Subclades Project should request FTDNA to offer an individual F1019 SNP test.

Michał
12-19-2013, 03:16 PM
Just to be more precise: The Polish/Ukrainian F2935 has not actually been tested for F1019, as far as I know. Michał is, I think, predicting his status based on a degree of haplotype (STR) similarity with the Scottish F2935, who has been tested by Geno 2.0.

Correct. Thank you for noticing this.

Silesian
12-19-2013, 03:22 PM
OK. Well we can agree on that point. However, it is not exclusive to the Jews. The study of Christians and Christianity is filled with much of the same. And yes, we should not continue this discussion here. You are more than welcome to create a thread in the appropriate section if you would like to discuss this further.
The difference being a paternal priestly caste:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levite


kohanim comprise a family dynasty (although people claiming to be kohanim have many haplogroups) within the tribe of Levi, and thus all kohanim are traditionally considered to be Levites, but not all Levites are kohanim.

If you postulate that R1a in Jewish Levite is from the steppe, you leave the door open for other clades like for example R2, also.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cohen/default.aspx

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 03:31 PM
The difference being a paternal priestly caste:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levite



If you postulate that R1a in Jewish Levite is from the steppe, you leave the door open for other clades like for example R2, also.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cohen/default.aspx

Can you explain what you mean? How is R2 relevant to the discussion of R1a in the Levites.

ADW_1981
12-19-2013, 03:33 PM
The difference being a paternal priestly caste:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levite



If you postulate that R1a in Jewish Levite is from the steppe, you leave the door open for other clades like for example R2, also.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cohen/default.aspx

Does anyone have data readily available on the other 50% of the Levite YDNA

Silesian
12-19-2013, 03:42 PM
Can you explain what you mean? How is R2 relevant to the discussion of R1a in the Levites.
It does not have to be R2 although there are obviously R2.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cohen/default.aspx
It could be xyz, IMO, R1ai shows there was introgression and confirms the account of Queen Helena.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/801-adiabene
Conversion of Some of Izates' Subjects.

Did you think the L found in Druze is from Levant. Are they located close to Samaritans?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze

According to DNA testing, Druze are remarkable for the high frequency (35%) of males who carry the Y-chromosomal haplogroup L, which is otherwise uncommon in the Mideast (Shen et al. 2004).[67] This haplogroup originates from prehistoric South Asia and has spread from Pakistan into southern Iran

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 03:54 PM
Does anyone have data readily available on the other 50% of the Levite YDNATable A


Ashkenazi Levites: Counts of Haplogroups by Use of 25 Biallelic Markers and of Haplotypes by Use of 12 Microsatellite Markers[Note]


Count in Population
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Haplogroup and Haplotype ----------------------------- Total

DE(xE3):

16 15 17 12 12 18 22 9 12 13 11 16 ------------------ 1


E3b:

13 13 15 12 14 16 25 9 11 13 11 13 ------------------- 1
13 14 16 12 13 17 23 10 11 13 11 16 ------------------ 3
13 15 16 12 14 16 23 10 11 13 11 --------------------- 1
13 16 16 14 13 18 25 10 11 13 11 16 ------------------ 1
13 16 18 12 13 17 24 10 11 13 11 16 ------------------ 1
13 17 18 12 13 17 24 9 11 14 11 16 ------------------- 1
13 17 18 12 13 17 25 9 11 14 11 16 ------------------- 1
13 17 18 12 13 18 22 10 11 14 11 17 ------------------- 2


F*(xG,H,I,J,K):

16 11 13 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------ 1


I:

16 15 16 13 13 16 22 10 13 13 11 15 ------------------- 1


J*(xJ2):

14 16 18 16 13 16 24 10 13 12 11 14 ------------------- 1
15 13 17 16 13 16 23 10 11 12 11 15 ------------------- 1


J2:

14 12 17 16 14 17 23 10 11 12 11 15 ------------------ 1
14 13 17 17 13 16 23 10 11 12 11 15 ------------------ 1
14 14 16 15 14 16 25 10 11 12 11 15 ------------------- 1
16 14 15 15 14 17 22 11 11 12 11 16 ------------------- 1


K*(xL,N,O,P):

13 13 16 12 14 18 22 10 13 13 11 16 ------------------ 1


N*(xN3):

14 11 13 12 13 16 23 11 14 14 11 14 ------------------ 1


Q:

13 14 16 12 13 16 22 10 15 13 12 16 ------------------- 1


R1*:

16 11 14 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------ 1


R1a1:

15 11 14 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 12 14 -------------------1
15 11 14 12 13 17 24 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------- 2
15 11 14 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------- 1
16 11 14 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------- 4
16 11 14 12 13 17 24 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------- 1
16 11 14 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------ 18
16 11 14 12 13 18 24 10 11 12 12 14 ------------------- 1
16 11 14 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------- 1
17 11 14 12 13 17 24 10 11 13 12 14 -------------------- 1
17 11 14 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 14 -------------------- 1


R1b:

14 10 10 12 13 16 23 10 13 13 12 17 -------------------- 1
14 11 14 12 13 16 24 10 14 12 11 16 -------------------- 1
14 11 15 12 13 16 24 10 13 13 12 16 -------------------- 1
15 12 13 12 14 16 24 10 13 13 11 17 ---------------------1
16 11 14 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 14 ---------------------1


Total -------------------------------------------------------- 60

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180600/table/TB7/

whole paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180600/

Silesian
12-19-2013, 03:56 PM
Does anyone have data readily available on the other 50% of the Levite YDNA

I don't know. However the areas where R1a and R1b are found, especially R1b in frequencies of 15%-30%[Anatolia/Turk_Armenia_Northern Assyrians_North Western Iranians] have very little to no African components, which if the transplant of Levant peoples to Mede regions occurred under the Assyrians would show up in one form or another,
compare African components found in modern day Ashkenazi Druze Yemeni Jews Sephardic Jews to Armenian/ Assyrians/ Northern Iranians.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 04:17 PM
I don't know. However the areas where R1a and R1b are found, especially R1b in frequencies of 15%-30%[Anatolia/Turk_Armenia_Northern Assyrians_North Western Iranians] have very little to no African components, which if the transplant of Levant peoples to Mede regions occurred under the Assyrians would show up in one form or another,
compare African components found in modern day Ashkenazi Druze Yemeni Jews Sephardic Jews to Armenian/ Assyrians/ Northern Iranians.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0Ashkenazi Levites

1 x F*(xG,H,I,J,K)
1 x I
1 x K*(xL,N,O,P)
1 x Q
1 x N*(xN3)

1 x DE(xE3)
11 x E3b

2 x J*(xJ2)
4 x J2

1 x R1*
5 x R1b
31 x R1a1


Ancient Iranians (/Aryans) like the Medes, Persians etc. were mostly Caucasus-Gedrosia folks. That's why nations like Iranians and Kurds have the highest amounts of Gedrosia in West Asia, around 30%. But Ashkenazi have no so much of Gedrosia in them.

Silesian
12-19-2013, 04:31 PM
1 x F*(xG,H,I,J,K)
1 x I
1 x K*(xL,N,O,P)
1 x Q
1 x N*(xN3)

1 x DE(xE3)
11 x E3b
2 x J*(xJ2)
4 x J2
1 x R1*
5 x R1b
31 x R1a1

Ancient Iranians (/Aryans) like the Medes, Persians etc. were mostly Caucasus - Gedrosia folks. That's why nations like Iranians and Kurds have the highest amounts of Gedrosia in West Asian
In terms of actual physical written attestation, that can be verified; I would have to agree with you.


.....The cuneiform for "kur" was written ideographically with the cuneiform sign ��, a pictograph of a mountain.[1]..... Kur came to also mean land, and Sumer itself, was called "Kur-gal" or "Great Land".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur
Aratta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aratta

What is it with Sumerians and mountains?

Táltos
12-19-2013, 04:32 PM
Ashkenazi Levites

1 x F*(xG,H,I,J,K)
1 x I
1 x K*(xL,N,O,P)
1 x Q
1 x N*(xN3)

1 x DE(xE3)
11 x E3b

2 x J*(xJ2)
4 x J2

1 x R1*
5 x R1b
31 x R1a1


Ancient Iranians (/Aryans) like the Medes, Persians etc. were mostly Caucasus-Gedrosia folks. That's why nations like Iranians and Kurds have the highest amounts of Gedrosia in West Asia, around 30%. But Ashkenazi have no so much of Gedrosia in them.
You can add two more Levites for the Q1b as they are in my brother's haplogroup origins page.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 04:34 PM
E-M35 is very common among Semitic speakers. It seems that this marker determined the language of Ashkenazi Levites.

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 04:43 PM
It does not have to be R2 although there are obviously R2.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cohen/default.aspx
It could be xyz, IMO, R1ai shows there was introgression and confirms the account of Queen Helena.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/801-adiabene
Conversion of Some of Izates' Subjects.

Did you think the L found in Druze is from Levant. Are they located close to Samaritans?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze

I have no idea about the L in the Druze. I would need to see a subclade breakdown.

newtoboard
12-19-2013, 04:46 PM
I don't know. However the areas where R1a and R1b are found, especially R1b in frequencies of 15%-30%[Anatolia/Turk_Armenia_Northern Assyrians_North Western Iranians] have very little to no African components, which if the transplant of Levant peoples to Mede regions occurred under the Assyrians would show up in one form or another,
compare African components found in modern day Ashkenazi Druze Yemeni Jews Sephardic Jews to Armenian/ Assyrians/ Northern Iranians.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0


Yes but we don't know if these African components existed in the Levant back then. They could be linked to the spread of Arabic to the Levant.

ADW_1981
12-19-2013, 04:47 PM
Ashkenazi Levites

Ancient Iranians (/Aryans) like the Medes, Persians etc. were mostly Caucasus-Gedrosia folks. That's why nations like Iranians and Kurds have the highest amounts of Gedrosia in West Asia, around 30%. But Ashkenazi have no so much of Gedrosia in them.

Appreciate you digging up this data but you can't reliably corroborate autosomal DNA with YDNA, it just doesn't work. What I can see from this data is that the founder effect is limited to M582, and the other groups aren't skewed in any particular Y lineage's favour. There isn't even a skew towards Q1b or R2 among the remaining 50% which is what I was looking for.

ADW_1981
12-19-2013, 04:50 PM
Yes but we don't know if these African components existed in the Levant back then. They could be linked to the spread of Arabic to the Levant.

R1b-V88 is likely indigenous to the Levant. R1a1, which is considerably more frequent among Arabs than R1b is, seems to have arrived to countries like Qatar, UAE..etc with Persians.

ADW_1981
12-19-2013, 04:54 PM
Yes but we don't know if these African components existed in the Levant back then. They could be linked to the spread of Arabic to the Levant.

I'd argue the opposite. The Levant was probably more SSA back then than it is now. Only aDNA and ADMIXTURE will prove this though.

vettor
12-19-2013, 04:55 PM
Table A


Ashkenazi Levites: Counts of Haplogroups by Use of 25 Biallelic Markers and of Haplotypes by Use of 12 Microsatellite Markers[Note]


Count in Population
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Haplogroup and Haplotype ----------------------------- Total

DE(xE3):

16 15 17 12 12 18 22 9 12 13 11 16 ------------------ 1


E3b:

13 13 15 12 14 16 25 9 11 13 11 13 ------------------- 1
13 14 16 12 13 17 23 10 11 13 11 16 ------------------ 3
13 15 16 12 14 16 23 10 11 13 11 --------------------- 1
13 16 16 14 13 18 25 10 11 13 11 16 ------------------ 1
13 16 18 12 13 17 24 10 11 13 11 16 ------------------ 1
13 17 18 12 13 17 24 9 11 14 11 16 ------------------- 1
13 17 18 12 13 17 25 9 11 14 11 16 ------------------- 1
13 17 18 12 13 18 22 10 11 14 11 17 ------------------- 2


F*(xG,H,I,J,K):

16 11 13 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------ 1


I:

16 15 16 13 13 16 22 10 13 13 11 15 ------------------- 1


J*(xJ2):

14 16 18 16 13 16 24 10 13 12 11 14 ------------------- 1
15 13 17 16 13 16 23 10 11 12 11 15 ------------------- 1


J2:

14 12 17 16 14 17 23 10 11 12 11 15 ------------------ 1
14 13 17 17 13 16 23 10 11 12 11 15 ------------------ 1
14 14 16 15 14 16 25 10 11 12 11 15 ------------------- 1
16 14 15 15 14 17 22 11 11 12 11 16 ------------------- 1


K*(xL,N,O,P):

13 13 16 12 14 18 22 10 13 13 11 16 ------------------ 1


N*(xN3):

14 11 13 12 13 16 23 11 14 14 11 14 ------------------ 1


Q:

13 14 16 12 13 16 22 10 15 13 12 16 ------------------- 1


R1*:

16 11 14 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------ 1


R1a1:

15 11 14 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 12 14 -------------------1
15 11 14 12 13 17 24 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------- 2
15 11 14 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------- 1
16 11 14 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------- 4
16 11 14 12 13 17 24 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------- 1
16 11 14 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------ 18
16 11 14 12 13 18 24 10 11 12 12 14 ------------------- 1
16 11 14 12 13 18 25 10 11 13 12 14 ------------------- 1
17 11 14 12 13 17 24 10 11 13 12 14 -------------------- 1
17 11 14 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 14 -------------------- 1


R1b:

14 10 10 12 13 16 23 10 13 13 12 17 -------------------- 1
14 11 14 12 13 16 24 10 14 12 11 16 -------------------- 1
14 11 15 12 13 16 24 10 13 13 12 16 -------------------- 1
15 12 13 12 14 16 24 10 13 13 11 17 ---------------------1
16 11 14 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 14 ---------------------1


Total -------------------------------------------------------- 60

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180600/table/TB7/

whole paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180600/

The astonishing lower number for DYS389b with it's max of 18 is a factor.


IF as stated on the link the DYS are arranged as
bHaplotype made up of repeat sizes of microsatellite loci in the following order: DYS19, DYS385a, DYS385b (arbitrarily given larger repeat size over DYS385a), DYS388, DYS389…I, DYS389…II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS426, DYS439.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 05:01 PM
In terms of actual physical written attestation, that can be verified; I would have to agree with you.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur
Aratta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aratta

What is it with Sumerians and mountains?

Mountains are great conservators of someone’s ethnicity and it's impossible for the aggressive invaders to change the bloodline of mountain people. Mountains are the best protectors during a war. Look at the Caucasus Mountains. People in the Caucasus are still very ancient with very ancient cultures and languages.

Also, Sumerians were one of the first SUN worshippers. I guess in the mountains you're closer to the sun and therefore closer to the Gods.


Sumerian SUN god UTU

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/778/mcso.jpg

" He represents the brilliant light of the sun, which returns every day to illuminate the life of mankind, as well as the heavenly Force that brings the warmth which causes plants to grow. Utu's pictographic sign appears already in the earliest written cuneiform records. Several Old Sumerian kings speak of Utu as their king, and this can be attested by the kings' name forms, which may include the name of the god or his epithets in it. "

http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/gods/lords/lordutu.html


Solar Religion in Harappa is from the Sumerians!

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9219/c36l.jpg

from a book 'The Rise of Man in the Gardens of Sumeria" by Christine Preston
http://books.google.nl/books?id=ujn2fPCwaUAC&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=sumerian+farmers+harappa&source=bl&ots=i1bpNNAy98&sig=hayTmYud33uwJ74NDLfiDfsZXS8&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=QIzmUdfRKYXXPN3bgcAB&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAzgU#v=onepage&q=sumerian%20farmers%20harappa&f=false


Ur III Sumerian cuneiform for An (sky GOD) = Annunaki

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Cuneiform_sumer_dingir.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anu


same as this left of Kurdish Melek Taus:

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/6221/mgs7.jpg


Actually, it has been said that the Yezidism is at least going back at the time of the Sumerians. Sumerians GODS were Birdlike and equipped with beaks and wings.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sumeranu/sumeranu14_06.jpg
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sumeranu/sumeranu14_09.jpg


The Yezidi sanjak

http://www.personal.ceu.hu/students/09/Eszter_Spat/sanjak/TheSheikhansanjak_files/image002.jpg


Yezidi sanjak depicting cosmic bird atop the sky-pole.

http://www.andrewcollins.com/pics/SANJAK.gif
http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/thecygnusmystery_heaven.htm


Sumerian GOLDEN Bull

http://www.atlastours.net/iraq/golden_harp.jpg


Maykop GOLDEN Bull

http://culturedallroundman.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/r3_2_2d_eneolith_bull.jpg

Silesian
12-19-2013, 05:03 PM
Yes but we don't know if these African components existed in the Levant back then. They could be linked to the spread of Arabic to the Levant.
Interesting how do you propose an Ashkenazi with R1a M582[which you conjecture in it's earliest form, was from the steppe] and 5% African component, got that mixture? From, Eastern Europeans, Assyrians, Iranians, Armenians, Arabs, or Khazars? What do you see as the chronology of entry in African admixture in Ashkenazi's like R1a for example?

AJL
12-19-2013, 05:11 PM
Just to be more precise: The Polish/Ukrainian F2935 has not actually been tested for F1019, as far as I know. Michał is, I think, predicting his status based on a degree of haplotype (STR) similarity with the Scottish F2935, who has been tested by Geno 2.0.

The R1a1a and Subclades Project should request FTDNA to offer an individual F1019 SNP test.

Do we have information on the position and base pair substitution for F1019? If so the Ashkenazi-Levite Project can request it as well.

AJL
12-19-2013, 05:12 PM
Can you explain what you mean? How is R2 relevant to the discussion of R1a in the Levites.

It isn't, because it also occurs in Israelites, Sephardim, etc.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 05:14 PM
Lalesh is to Kurds Ezdi (Kurds of native Kurdish religion) what Vatican is for Christians, Jerusalem to Jews and Mecca to Muslims. And there are Jewish star of David / ornaments at Lalesh sanctuary, very very old!


ornaments at Lalesh sanctuary:

http://www.saradistribution.com/foto7/lales-ornament1.jpg


same shape as this

http://www.saradistribution.com/foto4/The_yezidi_Scripts6.jpg
http://www.saradistribution.com/artlines.htm

AJL
12-19-2013, 05:15 PM
Does anyone have data readily available on the other 50% of the Levite YDNA

Apparently a fairly standard Near Eastern mix of E1b1b, G, J1, J2, Q1b, early R1b1a2 subclades, R2, and T.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/400971.pdf

AJL
12-19-2013, 05:17 PM
I have no idea about the L in the Druze. I would need to see a subclade breakdown.

Likely L1b1 (old L2a), which is very common in some areas of Syria and Turkey, and is also found in Jews.

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 05:30 PM
It has been thought among my people that Jewish Kohens and Levites are from Kurdistan. So, it is actually possible and DNA is proving it, that ancient Jewish arch-fathers and prophets, like Moses, Ezekiel. Jeremiah, were actually Iranic!


It has been said that even Noah was Iranic and that the Noah's ark must be somewhere in Kurdistan!

the SUN child
12-19-2013, 05:32 PM
The biblical Tree Of Life of The Garden of Eden is from Kurdistan!

http://cdn.greenprophet.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Ancient-olive-tree.jpg


A new research paper traces the roots of the wild olive to one location, KURDISTAN!

http://www.greenprophet.com/2013/02/olives-trees-have-kurdish-roots/


There is an ancient tradition that the “tree of life” in the Garden of Eden was an olive tree. According to the Apocalpyse of Moses, an apocryphal Hebrew book, when Adam fell ill Seth went to request the “oil of mercy” to anoint Adam and restore his health. His entreaty was refused, as it was destined for Adam to die, but the angel Michael told Seth that the oil would be granted to the righteous at the end of days. In a similar passage in the “Life of Adam” the oil is referred to as “the tree of mercy from which the oil of life flows.”

http://www.triumphpro.com/olive-tree-mystery.htm


http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4776/29572250.jpg
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/581/2kurdistangardenofeden.jpg

http://gimozangana.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/kurdistans-garden-of-eden/

seferhabahir
12-19-2013, 08:21 PM
It isn't, because it also occurs in Israelites, Sephardim, etc.

OK, but I think perhaps my R1b-L583 subclade is relevant. The story is similar (except for not much, if any, R1b-L21 in the Middle East). This SNP has proven to be exclusively Ashkenazi-Levite and is a subset of a larger (40+ known test kits) Ashkenazi cluster under R1b-Z251 with markers far removed from the rest of Z251 and for that matter, the rest of R-L21. Rathna and I have discussed at length on other forums when and where an introgression into the Jewish gene pool may or may not have occurred, and why only a subset of this R1b-Z251 Jewish cluster claim Levite heritage. To date, Levites in L21 are exclusive to SNP L583, and there are also some STR markers that tend to differentiate Levite from non-Levite in Z251 Jews.

Could be someone (probably a Jewish Z251 in the Middle Ages) married a Levite daughter and decided his paternal line should be Levite (less problematic than for Kohanim). Origin of Jewish Z251 likely goes back much earlier than this Levite/non-Levite split. I have a Full Genomes test in progress and we will see how many SNPs there are under Z251 not shared by the other Z251 testers. Since there is conjecture that perhaps the frequency of new SNPs is one every 75 years, we might get a handle on how long ago the Jewish cluster of Z251 containing the L583 Levite sub-group split off from its Z251 ancestor.

Humanist
12-19-2013, 08:46 PM
Mapping the non-Jewish Iranian R-M582 from Rootsi et al.

For locations, I entered the following, in ACME Mapper (they are intended to provide a general idea of the location):

Middle East Kerman, Iran ("Kerman")
Middle East Gilan, Iran ("Gilan")
Middle East Iranian Azeri ("Tabriz") <-- (capital of East Azerbaijan Province, Iran)


Middle East Gilan, Iran
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Kurd, Kazahstan
Middle East Iranian Kerman
Middle East Iranian Kerman
Middle East Iranian Kerman
Middle East Kurd,Turkey
Middle East Kurd,Turkey
West Europe German_West
Central Europe Hungarian
Central Europe Slovak
Caucasus Nogay
West Europe Iberian


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/m582.jpg

And frequencies, excluding the Near East pooled data:


2.86 --   Iran Kerman
2.83 --  Kurds (Turkey and Kazakhstan)
2.5 --   Iran Azeri
1.33 --   Iran
0.53 --   Iran
0 --   Iran North

seferhabahir
12-19-2013, 08:47 PM
It could be xyz, IMO, R1a1 shows there was introgression and confirms the account of Queen Helena.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/801-adiabene
Conversion of Some of Izates' Subjects.


The Adiabene conversion story has been referenced as a possibility for many haplogroup scenarios, including J-L817.

http://iyyovi.org/?q=history

According to some sources, Izates left 24 sons, all or most of whom were shuttled off to Jerusalem for a Jewish education. This would seem to be enough to get a decent sized Jewish cluster going at the beginning of the Common Era.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8358-izates

AJL
12-19-2013, 09:25 PM
OK, but I think perhaps my R1b-L583 subclade is relevant.

Yes, I suspect that might point to a Rhine-area convert or other introgression (probably France or Germany) at some point over the last 2,000 years.

RCO
12-19-2013, 11:32 PM
Any possibility of R-M582 in the R1a Arab or Gulf cases ?

AJL
12-20-2013, 12:45 AM
Any possibility of R-M582 in the R1a Arab or Gulf cases ?

Almost all R1a Arabs/Gulf area are proving Z2123 or L657 and specifically L657's Y7 subclade. There are also some Z2124* (with affinities to Pashtuns) and only one Arab Z2122, who matches close enough to the few nonAshkenazi Levite F1345s to suggest he may have ancestry ultimately from the Caucasus or close by. There is also a Banu Tamim lineage that needs to be Z2123-tested, but which is certainly not Z2122.

Generalissimo
12-20-2013, 12:52 AM
Interesting how do you propose an Ashkenazi with R1a M582[which you conjecture in it's earliest form, was from the steppe] and 5% African component, got that mixture? From, Eastern Europeans, Assyrians, Iranians, Armenians, Arabs, or Khazars? What do you see as the chronology of entry in African admixture in Ashkenazi's like R1a for example?

Sub-Saharan African admixture was probably present in the Jewish gene pool before R1a arrived there. Palestinians, Jordanians, Bedouins, Cypriots and even Southern Italians and Sicilians have it, Egyptians even more, so why not Hebrews? African-Americans with U106 still look mostly African.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5260/ssananeibdmapsfig2.png

parasar
12-20-2013, 01:27 AM
Almost all R1a Arabs/Gulf area are proving Z2123 or L657 and specifically L657's Y7 subclade. There are also some Z2124* (with affinities to Pashtuns) and only one Arab Z2122, who matches close enough to the few nonAshkenazi Levite F1345s to suggest he may have ancestry ultimately from the Caucasus or close by. There is also a Banu Tamim lineage that needs to be Z2123-tested, but which is certainly not Z2122.

Iran I believe.

Humanist
12-20-2013, 01:31 AM
Sub-Saharan African admixture was probably present in the Jewish gene pool before R1a arrived there. Palestinians, Jordanians, Bedouins, Cypriots and even Southern Italians and Sicilians have it, Egyptians even more, so why not Hebrews? African-Americans with U106 still look mostly African.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5260/ssananeibdmapsfig2.png

You may be right, in the end, but there is a clear correlation between mtDNA L lineages and Dodecad "African" values that one should consider.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/mtdna_african.jpg

The above data is based on an older Dodecad run. K12b data for Samaritans shows that Samaritans do indeed have non-negligible "African" component values. However, they are not "Sub-Saharan." Including the HGDP Palestinians for comparison:


SAM PAL
4.5 5.4 Northwest_African
0.2 5.2 East_African
0 2 Sub_Saharan
4.7 12.6 TOTAL "AFRICAN"

DMXX
12-20-2013, 02:14 AM
Can you explain what you mean? How is R2 relevant to the discussion of R1a in the Levites.

There actually is a connection which I was going to explain when I had more time but Silesian's fine observation deserves some expanding.

Within R2a-M124 the most decisive marker in separating samples has been found to be L295. This is particularly the case in India, where the south is generally heavily L295+ and the north L295-.

As far as I'm aware from the FTDNA R2 Project, the majority of Ashkenazi R2a are L295-. The few Iranians (including myself) who've tested for this marker are also L295-.

This is supported by some early phylogenetic STR work I carried out approximately two years ago, which showed some West Asian and Ashkenazi samples belonged to the same broad cluster together with a couple of Indians. I've attached this below.

Considering the above, I would tentatively propose the source of Ashkenazi R2a-M124 may have similarly West/West-Central Asian origins as the R1a subclade described here. Rather than the steppes and considering the wealth of information Humanist shared earlier, a post-steppe (i.e. West Asian) origin may also be sought again.

[Edit]: We must also take into consideration an observation made by Humanist, Birko19 and other users elsewhere on the Internet concerning the higher frequency of R2a-M124 among minority Jewish populations in the Near-East. I had a skim through some Mountain Jew R2a samples a while back and, if I recall correctly, the STRs indicated a founder effect took place. A thorough analysis of Near-Eastern Jewish R2a would be a worthwhile investigation in the future.

1078

Also, one comment about the presence of R1a-M582 among Iranian Azeris and people from Kerman but not "North Iranians"; the latter likely refers to Gilaki and Mazandarani speakers. These communities tend to be quite endogamous. There's certain features about their Y-DNA profile (i.e. relatively lower R1a compared to other northern Iranians) which exist.
So, the absence of R1a-M582 among that (likely) sample set from Gilan and Mazandaran should not automatically be presumed to be indicative of recent historical movements, such as a Turkish contribution, given Gilaki and Mazandarani speakers don't have much R1a to begin with.

lgmayka
12-20-2013, 02:50 AM
Do we have information on the position and base pair substitution for F1019? If so the Ashkenazi-Levite Project can request it as well.
F1019 is in Ybrowse (http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=7601943;end=7601943;name=F1019 ;class=Sequence;feature_id=6949;db_id=chrY%3Adatab ase).

Humanist
12-20-2013, 03:49 AM
[Edit]: We must also take into consideration an observation made by Birko19 and other users elsewhere on the Internet concerning the higher frequency of R2a-M124 among minority Jewish populations in the Near-East. I had a skim through some Mountain Jew R2a samples a while back and, if I recall correctly, the STRs indicated a founder effect took place. A thorough analysis of Near-Eastern Jewish R2a would be a worthwhile investigation in the future.

1078

Thank you for the post, DMXX. Some data, for those unfamiliar with our previous discussions:

Behar et al. (2010)

Some of this is likely Q1b, I would imagine, but R2a may (and probably does) have a significant presence among eastern Mizrahi Jews. The higher frequencies may be, as you point out, a result of a founder effect. One very interesting observation to make is that the below elevated PQR2 frequencies extend to the Yemeni Jews as well.

Frequencies rounded to nearest whole %.


PQR2
35 - Iranian Jews (N=49)
30 - Iraqi Jews (N=79)
12 - Azerbaijan Jews (N=57)
11 - Georgian Jews (N=62)
9 - Yemeni Jews (N=74)


Bertoncini et al. (2012)

16 - Mountain Jews (N=19)

Anthrogenica (2013)

8 - Assyrian (N=119)


Compare to PQR2 frequencies in Arab groups from Behar et al. (2010).


PQR2
0 - Bedouin (N=34)
0 - Lebanon (N=126)
0 - Yemen (N=62)
1 - Egypt (N=82)
1 - Palestinian (N=292)
1 - Syrian (N=111)
3 - Saudi Arabia (N=155)

Tomasso29
12-20-2013, 04:31 AM
In regards to the Cohen Levite connection, assuming there was such a tribe in the past and also assuming that this was a large tribe. It should not be unusual for them to have multiple haplogroups. Regardless, in the end it will be hard to prove anything via modern Jewish individuals with the Cohen background. A similar example can be noticed among the Quraish Arab tribe for example, in other words, take it with a grain of salt.


It has been thought among my people that Jewish Kohens and Levites are from Kurdistan. So, it is actually possible and DNA is proving it, that ancient Jewish arch-fathers and prophets, like Moses, Ezekiel. Jeremiah, were actually Iranic!

It has been said that even Noah was Iranic and that the Noah's ark must be somewhere in Kurdistan!

Sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. There's no evidence for individuals like Moses, Abraham, Noah, etc. So there's no point in connecting mythology figures to DNA studies.



35 - Iranian Jews (N=49)
30 - Iraqi Jews (N=79)
12 - Azerbaijan Jews (N=57)
11 - Georgian Jews (N=62)
9 - Yemeni Jews (N=74)


Most of the Yemeni Jewish samples may very well be a mixture of Q1a/Q1b. But the majority of the Iraqi/Iranian Jewish samples are most likely R2a with a smaller Q1b number. Obviously there's no proof in this study but I've seen this pattern a lot around FTDNA and 23andMe. Here's a simple example based on the Sephardic project (Although this is only a presentation of those who joined obviously):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sephardic_heritage/default.aspx?section=yresults

Traditionally Sephardic Jews have an Iberian/North African heritage, but sometimes Mizrahi Jews are also grouped under the Sephardic umbrella. Anyways, if you count the people from Iraq/Iran in that project this is what their haplogroup breakdown looks like:

Sample = 20
R2a - 25%
J2a - 20%
J1c3 - 15%
E1b1b1 - 15%
G2a3 - 10%
Q1b - 10%
T1a - 5%

I can tell you for a fact that there are other R2a Iranian/Iraqi Jewish samples that are not in that project, but the same thing can be said for the other haplogroups so I'll ignore it for the sake of that. Another thing to keep in mind is that there's not much diversity in the R2a Jewish samples, then again most of the samples only contain 12 STR's so more is needed to confirm (Among Ashkenazi R2a samples there's enough data available to analyze). What is clear however is there's quite a connection among these Iraqi/Iranian Jews and the European R2a Jewish samples which seems intriguing. I'm wondering if the same exists with the other haplogroups between the Mizrahi and Ashkenazi.

Btw, this is Birko19 :)

parasar
12-20-2013, 04:37 AM
...
Sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. There's no evidence for individuals like Moses, Abraham, Noah, etc. So there's no point in connecting mythology figures to DNA studies.


...
Btw, this is Birko19 :)

Birko,
While I may not agree the biblical references are mumbo-jumbo, it's nice to see you posting here!:)

Táltos
12-20-2013, 05:27 AM
In regards to the Cohen Levite connection, assuming there was such a tribe in the past and also assuming that this was a large tribe. It should not be unusual for them to have multiple haplogroups. Regardless, in the end it will be hard to prove anything via modern Jewish individuals with the Cohen background. A similar example can be noticed among the Quraish Arab tribe for example, in other words, take it with a grain of salt.



Sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. There's no evidence for individuals like Moses, Abraham, Noah, etc. So there's no point in connecting mythology figures to DNA studies.



Most of the Yemeni Jewish samples may very well be a mixture of Q1a/Q1b. But the majority of the Iraqi/Iranian Jewish samples are most likely R2a with a smaller Q1b number. Obviously there's no proof in this study but I've seen this pattern a lot around FTDNA and 23andMe. Here's a simple example based on the Sephardic project (Although this is only a presentation of those who joined obviously):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sephardic_heritage/default.aspx?section=yresults

Traditionally Sephardic Jews have an Iberian/North African heritage, but sometimes Mizrahi Jews are also grouped under the Sephardic umbrella. Anyways, if you count the people from Iraq/Iran in that project this is what their haplogroup breakdown looks like:

Sample = 20
R2a - 25%
J2a - 20%
J1c3 - 15%
E1b1b1 - 15%
G2a3 - 10%
Q1b - 10%
T1a - 5%

I can tell you for a fact that there are other R2a Iranian/Iraqi Jewish samples that are not in that project, but the same thing can be said for the other haplogroups so I'll ignore it for the sake of that. Another thing to keep in mind is that there's not much diversity in the R2a Jewish samples, then again most of the samples only contain 12 STR's so more is needed to confirm (Among Ashkenazi R2a samples there's enough data available to analyze). What is clear however is there's quite a connection among these Iraqi/Iranian Jews and the European R2a Jewish samples which seems intriguing. I'm wondering if the same exists with the other haplogroups between the Mizrahi and Ashkenazi.

Btw, this is Birko19 :)
If I am not mistaken I think the Yemeni Jewish are all actually a sublclade of Q1a. Thanks for the link to the project. It is too bad that the Q1b men did not test to the 67 marker. They use the DYF395S1 for clusters.

seferhabahir
12-20-2013, 05:31 AM
I can tell you for a fact that there are other R2a Iranian/Iraqi Jewish samples that are not in that project, but the same thing can be said for the other haplogroups so I'll ignore it for the sake of that. Another thing to keep in mind is that there's not much diversity in the R2a Jewish samples, then again most of the samples only contain 12 STR's so more is needed to confirm (Among Ashkenazi R2a samples there's enough data available to analyze). What is clear however is there's quite a connection among these Iraqi/Iranian Jews and the European R2a Jewish samples which seems intriguing. I'm wondering if the same exists with the other haplogroups between the Mizrahi and Ashkenazi.


From what I observe, there at three identifiable clusters within the R2a Jewish samples. The smaller Ashkenazi cluster (that is probably identified by SNP L288, labeled Hungary and Latvia in Birko's chart) seems to be the most genetically distant. The other two groups seem more closely related to each other in time, with Iraqi/Iranian samples (at least the ones with 37 markers) clustered together and somewhat differentiated from the Ashkenazi samples (identified by SNP F1092 - these are the lime green Eastern Europeans in the chart). To me, this says this F0192 Ashkenazi cluster likely broke off in the Middle East and mostly went to Europe. I don't know yet whether any of the Iraq/Iran R2a samples listed in the Sephardic Heritage project (the ones that differ as described below) are positive or negative for F1092.

The STR markers show this differentiation to some extent. For example, L288 and Iraq/Iran samples have DYS458=17, while F1092 Ashkenazi samples have DYS458=16. The L288 samples are DS459=8,9 while the Iraq/Iran and F1092 Ashkenazi samples have DYS459=9,9. L288 samples have YCAII=19,21 while Iraq/Iran samples have YCAII=20,21 and F1092 Ashkenazi have YCAII=20,20 (except an outlier that is YCAII=18,20 and also DYS458=15). These are all L295- as stated above. Identifying more new SNPs would be helpful. I know there are at least two F1092 Ashkenazi kits that ordered a BIG Y.

This is somewhat far afield from the R1a1 paper, so perhaps we can start another thread on this under R2-M479 for those interested in analyzing the R2a groups.

Tomasso29
12-20-2013, 06:15 AM
I don't know yet whether any of the Iraq/Iran R2a samples listed in the Sephardic Heritage project (the ones that differ as described below) are positive or negative for F1092.

Kit N40042 from Iran is positive for F1092. Can't speak for the others but based on the STR similarity despite it being only 12 markers, I suspect kit 106980 from Iraq may be a lock for that SNP as well.

Nirvana
12-20-2013, 06:45 AM
What is clear however is there's quite a connection among these Iraqi/Iranian Jews and the European R2a Jewish samples which seems intriguing.

I am not knowledgeable enough about this subject, so I will just guess the point. Could we say that R1a and R1b are European converts?
Not sure if I understand R2 connection, but you seem to point to a connection. What is your suggestion for R2?

AJL
12-20-2013, 06:48 AM
I am not knowledgeable enough about this subject, so I will just guess the point. Could we say that R1a and R1b are European converts?

No. That's what people thought in perhaps 2004, but it's far more complicated than that.

Nirvana
12-20-2013, 06:57 AM
No. That's what people thought in perhaps 2004, but it's far more complicated than that.

Yes I understand your point, since I guess there should be a presence of R1 derived groups in Iraq and Iran long enough to become part of ancient Israelites. I was just intrigued by Tomaso29s speculative breakage of groups.

Generalissimo
12-20-2013, 12:40 PM
Not really a paper, just an abstract from ongoing projects...

Two main genetic shifts in Iberia since the Mesolithic (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/two-main-genetic-shifts-in-iberia-since.html)

Tomasso29
12-20-2013, 02:05 PM
I am not knowledgeable enough about this subject, so I will just guess the point. Could we say that R1a and R1b are European converts?
Not sure if I understand R2 connection, but you seem to point to a connection. What is your suggestion for R2?

I cannot comment for the connection between Middle Eastern Jews and European Jews in terms of haplogroups R1a/R1b. But as far as R2a goes, please see the WTY-FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2-M124-WTY/default.aspx?section=yresults

The big Jewish cluster contains Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews. There's a clear ancient connection if you analyze that data.

Humanist
12-20-2013, 04:07 PM
Please continue the discussion here.

ADW_1981
12-20-2013, 04:21 PM
I know the topic and paper were primarily targeting the R1a Levites, but I noticed that an Arab Christian was under L11+ as per the diagram. Does anyone have further details on this?

Nirvana
12-20-2013, 04:35 PM
I cannot comment for the connection between Middle Eastern Jews and European Jews in terms of haplogroups R1a/R1b. But as far as R2a goes, please see the WTY-FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2-M124-WTY/default.aspx?section=yresults

The big Jewish cluster contains Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews. There's a clear ancient connection if you analyze that data.

Sorry my mistake. I thought you were pointing out to a lack of R1a/R1b among Iraqian and one Iranian sample, in a break of haplogroups from FTDNA Sephardi project.

Yes, I expected R2a to have an ancient connection.

Humanist
12-20-2013, 04:42 PM
I know the topic and paper were primarily targeting the R1a Levites, but I noticed that an Arab Christian was under L11+ as per the diagram. Does anyone have further details on this?

This does not add much, but this is the only mention that it receives in the paper:


The haplogroup distribution pattern observed for the Ashkenazi Levite lineage does not seem to be restricted to haplogroup R1a chromosomes. While haplogroup R1a is the most prevalent in East Europe, it is its companion haplogroup, R1b, that is the most frequent among West Europeans38. Similar to haplogroup R1a, haplogroup R1b frequencies are also found at low frequencies among non-Europeans, including Jews39. Based on distinct STR patterns, it has been suggested that some of the Jewish R1b chromosomes may have a West European origin and that some might be of Near Eastern origin34. Our sequence data are compatible with this suggestion as the Kurdish, Moroccan and Turkish Jewish R1b lineages for which whole Y-chromosome data was determined to coincide with a different branch than the one which is common in Europe (Fig. 1a). Intriguingly, we also noticed that like the R1a subclade, the particular subclade within R1b is also shared by Jews and a Y-chromosome, sampled in Aramaic speaking Assyrian descendants. In contrast, one Ashkenazi Jewish and one Arab Christian R1b lineages seem to be nested with the European R1b-L52 haplogroup. Estimating the proportion of haplogroup R1b chromosomes among Jews and in particular among Ashkenazi Jews of Levantine origin remains the scope of further studies.

Humanist
12-20-2013, 04:54 PM
I can tell you for a fact that there are other R2a Iranian/Iraqi Jewish samples that are not in that project, but the same thing can be said for the other haplogroups so I'll ignore it for the sake of that. Another thing to keep in mind is that there's not much diversity in the R2a Jewish samples, then again most of the samples only contain 12 STR's so more is needed to confirm (Among Ashkenazi R2a samples there's enough data available to analyze). What is clear however is there's quite a connection among these Iraqi/Iranian Jews and the European R2a Jewish samples which seems intriguing. I'm wondering if the same exists with the other haplogroups between the Mizrahi and Ashkenazi.

Btw, this is Birko19 :)

I am not sure if you recall, but when Marko Heinila created his analyses a couple of years back, your R2a haplotype did not match any other haplotype within the last few thousand years. Your "best" match was with a man from the Persian Gulf. An area I have mentioned several times when discussing Assyrian Y-DNA. Including my own G1 line. Perhaps the Iraqi/Iranian Jewish R2a frequency is related in some way to the above observation.

Great to have you here. ;)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/Birko_R2_.jpg

AJL
12-20-2013, 05:13 PM
Yes I understand your point, since I guess there should be a presence of R1 derived groups in Iraq and Iran long enough to become part of ancient Israelites. I was just intrigued by Tomaso29s speculative breakage of groups.

I don't think you do understand. It used to be thought that R1 was European. Best evidence now points to R1 originating near the Caspian, and early R1b subclades occur in West Asia routinely that are scarcely found in Western Europeans.

<http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/>

R1a as well has diversity in its two major subclades, with one (CTS4385) being most common in Western Europe, and the other (Z645) in Eurasia, with Z645's subdivisions being most common in Eastern/Central Europe (Z283) on the one hand and the Eurasian Steppe and West, Central, and South Asia (Z93) on the other.

<http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?vgroup=r1a&vgroup=r1a&vgroup=r1a&section=yresults>

None of this in itself suggests that all or most R1a and R1b were imported into the Jewish population in Europe. That is probably the case for a few specific and fairly rarely occuring Ashkenazi subclades such as Ashkenazi R1a-L1029 and R1b-L583 which so far are a very small proportion of their respective root-level haplogroups among all Jews, well less than 1%.

Most of the Ashkenazi R1b subclades are found in concentration in other West Asian populations (e.g. Druze, Lebanese, Syrians, Armenians, Assyrians, Turks, Kurds, etc), and not in any concentration among Europeans.

Nirvana
12-20-2013, 05:42 PM
I don't think you do understand. It used to be thought that R1 was European. Best evidence now points to R1 originating near the Caspian, and early R1b subclades occur in West Asia routinely that are scarcely found in Western Europeans.

Sorry, not meant to offend you in any way.

I am actually aware of this.

My knowledge of Jewish history and associated haplogroups is not perfect indeed.
I, naively, took a small sample breakdown of haplogroups in Iraq as indicative of some sort.

AJL
12-20-2013, 06:03 PM
Sorry, not meant to offend you in any way.

I am actually aware of this.

My knowledge of Jewish history and associated haplogroups is not perfect indeed.
I, naively, took a small sample breakdown of haplogroups in Iraq as an indicative of some sort.
Also thank you for the additional explanation concerning Jewish subclades.

What is your opinion on Khazarian origin theories?

No offence at all -- your remarks just didn't seem to indicate that you were up on R1a and R1b.

A Khazar origin is quite possible for a small percentage of Ashkenazi yDNA and mtDNA lines (perhaps ~3%), but much more than that does not fit with either uniparental marker frequencies, nor does the autosomal DNA profile suggest much more than that.

I also think a small percentage of Rhine genetics (probably <1%) is possible as mentioned above, and a significant proportion of other non-natively Levantine but still Mediterranean/West Asian contributions, perhaps as high as 20-25%. There also is a probable contribution of ballpark 1-2% East European from Poland/Ukraine/the Baltic states. There may be some minor (<1%) uniparental traces of various other lineages including potentially Asian (e.g. mtDNA M33) and possibly Subsaharan African (e.g. yDNA E1a1).

However the overall impression conveyed by Ashkenazi atDNA, yDNA, and mtDNA together is of a mainly northern Levantine people with a slight pull towards Europe relative to other Levantine peoples -- where in Europe depends on which dimensions you examine.

Silesian
12-20-2013, 06:42 PM
Sub-Saharan African admixture was probably present in the Jewish gene pool before R1a arrived there. Palestinians, Jordanians, Bedouins, Cypriots and even Southern Italians and Sicilians have it, Egyptians even more, so why not Hebrews? African-Americans with U106 still look mostly African.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5260/ssananeibdmapsfig2.png

R1a/R1b/R2 combination is not found among Proto- Afro Asiatic regions.The lack of R1a/R1b/R2 in Northern Africa[ proto-Semitic to Libyco-Berber.] The region of Assyriana/Armenia, North Western Iran/Anatolia have 0-0.4% North West African components in Dodecad K12b. Ashkenazi have 5%+/- IMO a result of migration of Proto-Afro Asiatics[ proto-Semitic from Libyco-Berber.] into regions inhabited by Proto-Indo-Europeans.

According to the proponents of this theory, Syria and Mesopotamia was originally inhabited by a non-Semitic population as the earlier linguistic tradition of those areas can be seen from the non-Semitic toponyms preserved in Akkadian and Palaeosyrian languages. The African origin may be firmly confirmed with the relationship between Afro-Asiatic and the Niger–Congo languages, whose urheimat probably lies in Nigeria-Cameroon.[4] It appears that the most numerous isoglosses and lexicostatistical convergences link proto-Semitic to Libyco-Berber.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic_language


Another indication to the arrival of the proto-Semitic culture is the appearance of tumuli in 4th and 3rd millennium Palestine, which were typical characteristic of Neolithic North Africa.[5]
Dodecade K12b North West African component and Proto Libyco-Berber component[Mozabite]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

Mozabite-98.5% Northwest African
Egyptians-10.9% Northwest African
Sephardic Jews-6.2% Northwest African
Ashkenazi Jews-4.2% Northwest African
Yemen-Jews 3.1% Northwest African
Druze-2.9% Northwest African
Azerbaijan Jews- 0.4% Northwest African
Turkey/Anatolia-0.4% Northwest African
Assyrians-0% Northwest African
Armenians-0% Northwest African

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Expansion_of_Afroasiatic.svg

seferhabahir
12-20-2013, 09:23 PM
A Khazar origin is quite possible for a small percentage of Ashkenazi yDNA and mtDNA lines (perhaps ~3%), but much more than that does not fit with either uniparental marker frequencies, nor does the autosomal DNA profile suggest much more than that.


There were other ways for a migration of Jewish haplogroups from Khazaria that would not be through Khazar conversions. The importation of Jewish sages and teachers and their families has been mentioned with regard to educating the newly converted Khazars. These Jews, probably from Babylonian areas, could have migrated up into Eastern Europe along with some converted Khazars when the empire fell apart. The imported scholars could have been almost anything such as R1a1, J-L817, R2a, or R1b (ht35 types, but not western types like my R-L583 line).

See for example:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4279-chazars

"...It was one of the successors of Bulan, named Obadiah, who regenerated the kingdom and strengthened the Jewish religion. He invited Jewish scholars to settle in his dominions, and founded synagogues and schools..."

newtoboard
12-21-2013, 02:46 PM
Is there any non z2122 but z93 r1a among Ashkenazi Jews?

Michał
12-21-2013, 03:04 PM
Is there any non z2122 but z93 r1a among Ashkenazi Jews?
Yes, there is a relatively young cluster called 9.D4 in our project. They are Z2124+ and negative for Z2122, though thier Z2123 status remains unknown.

newtoboard
12-21-2013, 03:06 PM
Yes, there is a relatively young cluster called 9.D4 in our project. They are Z2124+ and negative for Z2122, though thier Z2123 status remains unknown.

What origin would you propose for this cluster?

Michał
12-21-2013, 03:34 PM
What origin would you propose for this cluster?
Hard to say with no information about their closest Y-DNA "cousins". Anyway, the Khazar origin is certainly worth considering, though many other scenarios, including some potential Scythian, Persian, Cimmerian or Turkic non-Khazar contribution, are also possible.

newtoboard
12-21-2013, 03:39 PM
Hard to say with no information about their closest Y-DNA "cousins". Anyway, the Khazar origin is certainly worth considering, though many other scenarios, including some potential Scythian, Persian, Cimmerian or Turkic non-Khazar contribution, are also possible.

I thought you didn't think it made sense to associate Cimmerians with Z93.

Michał
12-21-2013, 05:11 PM
I thought you didn't think it made sense to associate Cimmerians with Z93.
Why? Of course, I don't know what was the exact Y-DNA composition in the Cimmerian population and which haplogrpoup (or subclade) was the major component there, but I see no reason to exclude Z93 from the Cimmerian Y-DNA pool, especially when I suspect that Z93 was included (as a minority component) into some definitely non-Indo-Iranian-speaking populations suspected of being originally derived from the North Pontic region.

newtoboard
12-21-2013, 05:16 PM
Why? Of course, I don't know what was the exact Y-DNA composition in the Cimmerian population and which haplogrpoup (or subclade) was the major component there, but I see no reason to exclude Z93 from the Cimmerian Y-DNA pool, especially when I suspect that Z93 was included (as a minority component) into some definitely non-Indo-Iranian-speaking populations suspected of being originally derived from the North Pontic region.

My apologies. I thought you had said it made no sense to associate Cimmerians with IndoIranian languages or z93 but I later Realized you never said the latter. I wonder if it makes sense to associate that west Asian cluster of z282 to Cimmerians.

Michał
12-21-2013, 05:44 PM
My apologies. I thought you had said it made no sense to associate Cimmerians with IndoIranian languages or z93 but I later Realized you never said the latter.
Actually, I have only said that it is relatively unlikely that the Cimmerians spoke an Indo-Iranian language when assuming that the Andronovans spoke Proto-Indo-Iranian while the language ancestral to Cimmerian was spoken in Srubna. :)

As you know, I consider it quite possible that Proto-Indo-Iranian predates Andronovo, which of course would make Srubna (and Cimmerians) more likely to speak an Indo-Iranian language.


I wonder if it makes sense to associate that west Asian cluster of z282 to Cimmerians.
I think we have already discussed this before and agreed that it is possible (or even quite likely).

newtoboard
12-21-2013, 05:54 PM
The Porto Indo Iranian predating andronovo places it in Poltavka. Do you think it is also possible Cimmerians spoke an Indo Iranian language because of andronovo influence in the region around the Volga where they overlapped.

So the ultimate chain that led to z93 is

Central Asia to samara to khvalynsk to eastern yamnaya to Poltavka to sintasha to andronvo

newtoboard
12-21-2013, 05:58 PM
Also everything you said makes sense but it hard to wrap my head around Cimmerians speaking anything but Indo Iranian when timber grave is considered a fusion of Poltavka and abashevo groups. Who could have filled the void when Poltavka migrated east of the Urals to account for Cimmerians speaking a non Indo Iranian language.

The other thing I have thought of is what if andronovo represents the Proto Indic and Proto Iranian branches in their separated forms from the start. Could this possibly correspond to alakul and Federovo?

Michał
12-21-2013, 07:22 PM
The Porto Indo Iranian predating andronovo places it in Poltavka.
Or even in Eastern Yamna, if going further back in time (though this is of course slightly less likely).


Do you think it is also possible Cimmerians spoke an Indo Iranian language because of andronovo influence in the region around the Volga where they overlapped.
I cannot rule it out.


So the ultimate chain that led to z93 is

Central Asia to samara to khvalynsk to eastern yamnaya to Poltavka to sintasha to andronvo
I would also add the Early Dnieper-Donets culture (Dnieper-Donets I) just before the Samara stage.

Michał
12-21-2013, 07:39 PM
We are drifting away from the main subject of this thread, so this is my last post here. :)


Also everything you said makes sense but it hard to wrap my head around Cimmerians speaking anything but Indo Iranian when timber grave is considered a fusion of Poltavka and abashevo groups. Who could have filled the void when Poltavka migrated east of the Urals to account for Cimmerians speaking a non Indo Iranian language.
They could have spoken a language closely related to Indo-Iranian (but not Indo-Iranian), especially when assuming that Proto-Indo-Iranian was spoken only in Andronovo.



The other thing I have thought of is what if andronovo represents the Proto Indic and Proto Iranian branches in their separated forms from the start. Could this possibly correspond to alakul and Federovo?
You would need to demonstrate that Gandahara Grave was more closely related to one of those two cultures than to the other, which won't be easy. Also, assigning Proto-Iranian to one specific culture is not an easy task. There were multiple cultural transformations and many migrations in different directions between the 15th and 9th cent. BC taking place in Central Asia, Southern Ural, Western Siberia and Eastern Europe, and I haven't seen any comprehensive analysis that would link all of this to some very specific linguistic groupings (with many of those languages being likely to have become extinct).

Humanist
12-21-2013, 08:54 PM
More information on the purported Assyrian resettlement of Israelites (in Iran specifically):


The cities of the Medes under Assyrian control are situated in three provinces in the Zagros mountain range: Parsua, Harhar and Kišessim. If one assumes that the Israelites were resettled immediately, then Parsua is the only option as the other two provinces were only established in 716 BC.

Karen Radner, 'Israel, the 'House of Omri (http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/saao/aebp/essentials/countries/israel/)'', Assyrian Empire Builders, University College London, 2012

The location:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/israelite_iran.jpg


EDIT:

One additional point to keep in mind.

(bold by me)


[P]eople were not made to leave on their own but did so together with their families. They were not snatched away in the heat of battle or conquest, but were chosen as the result of a deliberate selection process, often in the aftermath of a war that had very possibly reduced their original home to ruins. And when the Assyrian sources specify who was to be relocated, they name the urban elites, craftsmen, specialists and scholars.

Karen Radner, 'Mass deportation: the Assyrian resettlement policy (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sargon/essentials/governors/massdeportation/)', Assyrian empire builders, University College London, 2012

lgmayka
12-22-2013, 02:10 AM
Yes, there is a relatively young cluster called 9.D4 in our project. They are Z2124+ and negative for Z2122, though thier Z2123 status remains unknown.
One cluster member, N3982, has ordered the Z2123 SNP test.

Humanist
12-23-2013, 05:47 AM
Came across this 2003 paper.


t would be a remarkable coincidence that the geographic origins and demographic expansion of the Ashkenazi are within Northern and Eastern Europe and that this haplogroup is found at very high frequency within neighboring non-Jewish populations of European origin but not at high frequency elsewhere.

[I]Multiple Origins of Ashkenazi Levites: Y Chromosome Evidence for Both Near Eastern and European Ancestries (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180600/)

Behar et al.

seferhabahir
12-23-2013, 07:39 AM
More information on the purported Assyrian resettlement of Israelites (in Iran specifically):

The cities of the Medes under Assyrian control are situated in three provinces in the Zagros mountain range: Parsua, Harhar and Kišessim. If one assumes that the Israelites were resettled immediately, then Parsua is the only option as the other two provinces were only established in 716 BC.

Karen Radner, 'Israel, the 'House of Omri (http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/saao/aebp/essentials/countries/israel/)'', Assyrian Empire Builders, University College London, 2012



Encyclopaedia Judaica shows a map from J. Shapiro (ed.), Historical Atlas of the Jewish People, Tel Aviv, 1966, indicating Assyrian resettlement in Ecbatana (Hamadan, Iran) in 721 BCE. This is 100 miles east of your yellow pin.

I'm not an expert in this area, so can you tell me if Ecbatana is within the province of Bit-Hamban, the other Median province that was attached to Assyria along with Parsua in 744 BCE? Or maybe an Assyrian Ecbatana resettlement is only an assumption based on the existence of later Jewish communities there.

Also Karen Radner, 'Assyria and the Medes (http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199733309.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199733309-e-032)', in The Oxford Handbook of Ancient Iran, 2013.

Humanist
12-23-2013, 09:16 AM
Encyclopaedia Judaica shows a map from J. Shapiro (ed.), Historical Atlas of the Jewish People, Tel Aviv, 1966, indicating Assyrian resettlement in Ecbatana (Hamadan, Iran) in 721 BCE. This is 100 miles east of your yellow pin.

I'm not an expert in this area, so can you tell me if Ecbatana is within the province of Bit-Hamban, the other Median province that was attached to Assyria along with Parsua in 744 BCE? Or maybe an Assyrian Ecbatana resettlement is only an assumption based on the existence of later Jewish communities there.

Also Karen Radner, 'Assyria and the Medes (http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199733309.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199733309-e-032)', in The Oxford Handbook of Ancient Iran, 2013.


Mapping the non-Jewish Iranian R-M582 from Rootsi et al.

For locations, I entered the following, in ACME Mapper (they are intended to provide a general idea of the location):

A. Middle East Kerman, Iran ("Kerman")
B. Middle East Gilan, Iran ("Gilan")
C. Middle East Iranian Azeri ("Tabriz") <-- (capital of East Azerbaijan Province, Iran)


Middle East Gilan, Iran
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Iranian Azeri
Middle East Kurd, Kazahstan
Middle East Iranian Kerman
Middle East Iranian Kerman
Middle East Iranian Kerman
Middle East Kurd,Turkey
Middle East Kurd,Turkey
West Europe German_West
Central Europe Hungarian
Central Europe Slovak
Caucasus Nogay
West Europe Iberian


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/m582.jpg

And frequencies, excluding the Near East pooled data:


2.86 --   Iran Kerman
2.83 --  Kurds (Turkey and Kazakhstan)
2.5 --   Iran Azeri
1.33 --   Iran
0.53 --   Iran
0 --   Iran North

Hi seferhabahir.

Points D and E represent (roughly) the locations of Harhar and Parsua (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1738-Rootsi-et-al-(2013)-Ashkenazi-Levite-R1a-Discussion-Thread&p=24085&viewfull=1#post24085) respectively. Harhar is located in what is today Hamadan Province, Iran.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/r1a_israelite.jpg

the SUN child
12-23-2013, 03:48 PM
I'm a (Kurmanji) Kurd Ezdi (unmixed). According to me Kurds are direct descendants of the Medes. I do also believe that the Jews also have Iranian ( Kurdic ) blood in them from the Medes and other Iranic (J2a + R1a) natives of the Zagros mountains & Kurds have some 'Jewish' blood too. And here is why. -> My K12b results, check out 'Mixed Mode Population Sharing' of DODECAD analyse:

37.76 % - Caucasus
28.04 % - Gedrosia
14.71 % - Southwest_Asian
8.76 % - Atlantic_Med
4.87 % - North_European
2.69 % - South_Asian
1.76 % - Northwest_African
0.88 % - Siberian
0.32 % - Southeast_Asian
0.21 % - East_Asian


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) ------------- Distance
1 Kurd (Dodecad) ------------------ 4.27
2 Iranians (Behar) ----------------- 4.42
3 Iranian (Dodecad) --------------- 5.04
4 Kurds (Yunusbayev) ------------- 5.46
5 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) ---- 10.61


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

"# - Primary Population (source) + Secondary Population (source) @ Distance
01 - 86.8% Iranians (Behar) + 13.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 1.77
02 - 86.6% Iranians (Behar) + 13.4% Cypriots (Behar) @ 1.95
03 - 88.2% Iranians (Behar) + 11.8% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) @ 1.95
04 - 88.5% Iranians (Behar) + 11.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.98
05 - 88.2% Iranians (Behar) + 11.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.01
06 - 88.0% Iranians (Behar) + 12.0% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 2.01
07 - 87.9% Iranians (Behar) + 12.1% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.12
08 - 89.6% Iranians (Behar) + 10.4% Greek (Dodecad) @ 2.34
09 - 90.4% Iranians (Behar) + 09.6% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.4
10 - 91.4% Iranians (Behar) + 08.6% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 2.62

Agamemnon
04-05-2014, 01:57 AM
No offence at all -- your remarks just didn't seem to indicate that you were up on R1a and R1b.

A Khazar origin is quite possible for a small percentage of Ashkenazi yDNA and mtDNA lines (perhaps ~3%), but much more than that does not fit with either uniparental marker frequencies, nor does the autosomal DNA profile suggest much more than that.

I also think a small percentage of Rhine genetics (probably <1%) is possible as mentioned above, and a significant proportion of other non-natively Levantine but still Mediterranean/West Asian contributions, perhaps as high as 20-25%. There also is a probable contribution of ballpark 1-2% East European from Poland/Ukraine/the Baltic states. There may be some minor (<1%) uniparental traces of various other lineages including potentially Asian (e.g. mtDNA M33) and possibly Subsaharan African (e.g. yDNA E1a1).

However the overall impression conveyed by Ashkenazi atDNA, yDNA, and mtDNA together is of a mainly northern Levantine people with a slight pull towards Europe relative to other Levantine peoples -- where in Europe depends on which dimensions you examine.

I agree, this is the general impression I get after having studied Ashkenazi DNA for years now.

The more we seem to learn, the scarcer the evidence for some sort of Khazar contribution.

Levite R1a-M582 surely is of Near Eastern origin, whether it came from a convert during the Babylonian exile or from some Mitannian settler in the Levant (around 10% of the general population of the Levant had Hurrian or Aryan names in the 14th century B.C) is still a mystery.

Either way, for this marker to have come with the Khazars, one has to bend logic in order to picture such an event.

AJL
06-29-2014, 05:44 PM
While the Khazar hypothesis doesn't work as well with current evidence, perhaps the SUN child was on to something.

It is known that the Queen of Adiabene, an Assyrian kingdom, converted to Judaism and moved to Jerusalem about 150-175 years before the destruction of the Second Temple, and that she donated a large amount of money to the Temple. Adiabene, however, was multicultural and included Alani, among other groups. The queen's family names suggest she was of Iranian background rather than being ethnically Assyrian. In the Talmud, "Ashkenaz" is paraphrased as Hadayab i.e. Adiabene. There's a little more background here (https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/theory-re-adiabene-origins).

It is easy to see how this could have led to a sort of culturally Assyrianized Iranian Levite contingent joining the Temple staff shortly before it was destroyed.

Humanist
06-29-2014, 06:32 PM
It is known that the Queen of Adiabene, an Assyrian kingdom, converted to Judaism and moved to Jerusalem about 150-175 years before the destruction of the Second Temple, and that she donated a large amount of money to the Temple. Adiabene, however, was multicultural and included Alani, among other groups. The queen's family names suggest she was of Iranian background rather than being ethnically Assyrian. In the Talmud, "Ashkenaz" is paraphrased as Hadayab i.e. Adiabene. There's a little more background here (https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/theory-re-adiabene-origins).

Given what I have read of the estimated dates for the below SNPs, I am not sure if Adiabene (1st millennium CE) is as good a fit as a possible 1st millennium BCE origin. There were countless opportunities for "Iranic" lines to enter Mesopotamia (and farther west) in the 1st millennium BCE. For instance, the Assyrians and Babylonians repopulated parts of Israel and Judah, in significant part, with peoples from the Zagros Mountains, Elam, and Babylonia. The Scythian settlements in the region preceding and subsequent to the fall of Nineveh. And so on.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/r1_levite.jpg

parasar
06-29-2014, 06:37 PM
I agree, this is the general impression I get after having studied Ashkenazi DNA for years now.

The more we seem to learn, the scarcer the evidence for some sort of Khazar contribution.

Levite R1a-M582 surely is of Near Eastern origin, whether it came from a convert during the Babylonian exile or from some Mitannian settler in the Levant (around 10% of the general population of the Levant had Hurrian or Aryan names in the 14th century B.C) is still a mystery.

Either way, for this marker to have come with the Khazars, one has to bend logic in order to picture such an event.

A few of points that I had made on another forum:
1. Of the M582 hotspots from Iran, the Azeris are Turks and Kerman (Seljuk) was a Turkish stronghold. Marco Polo notes Kerman as a Tatar occupied region.
2. The Armenian historian, Moses of Khorene (5th cent.) mentions a people called by him Ghazar or Ghyssir in the Armenia-Kurdistan region around 200AD and says that the king of the Huns is lord of the Ghazars with the title of Khagan and that of his queen called Ghatun. Page 271 Sefer Ha-Kuzari Judah (ha-Levi).
3. The Seljuks were a Khazar kin (per Maliknama) and Seljuq's sons were Mika'il (Michael), Musa (Moses), Yusuf (Joseph) and Isra'il (Israel).

The key question to me is - Is M582 higher in Turkic influenced areas of Iran than in others? If so, M582 could very well have developed in Turks, just prior or just after they had crossed the Caucasus. If not, it has not much to do with the Turks.

AJL
06-29-2014, 06:40 PM
True. One issue is Z2122 also encompasses some Karachay, Adygei, and Tatar, while Z2123 also encompasses many Tatar, Gulf Staters, and Central and various South Asians. So while it's seemingly a slam dunk for descent from an Indo-Aryan line at some point it's still a little unclear where and when...

vettor
06-29-2014, 06:56 PM
unsure if this has already been posted

https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/2014-klyosov-article-on-jewish-dna-genealogy

AJL
06-29-2014, 07:38 PM
unsure if this has already been posted

https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/2014-klyosov-article-on-jewish-dna-genealogy

Actually that site also mentions Vitaly's Adiabene hypothesis I alluded to, though it may not have been clear from the way I buried it in text:

https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/theory-re-adiabene-origins

parasar
06-29-2014, 07:46 PM
One of the key findings of Rootsi et al was:

...the 10 non-Ashkenazi R1a-M582 individuals, two were from the North African Algerian community, six belonged to Spanish expulsion descendent communities of Slovenia, Turkey and Bulgaria, and two were from individuals reporting their last known parental origin as Israel.
Significantly, all eight individuals for whom caste information was available self-identified as Levites.
...
all Ashkenazi Levite R1a samples belonged to haplogroup R1a-M582...

non-Ashkenazi Jews, R1a-M582 was observed only in Levites, and the observed sub-haplogroup shares the same STR signature as that seen in Ashkenazi Levites
...
Ashkenazi Levites must have repeatedly and episodically introgressed into non-Ashkenazi communities, maintaining their Levite status while abandoning their Ashkenazi affiliation.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html

Humanist
06-29-2014, 08:12 PM
Actually that site also mentions Vitaly's Adiabene hypothesis I alluded to, though it may not have been clear from the way I buried it in text:

https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/theory-re-adiabene-origins

Thank you for the link. Among his many theories, the author makes no reference to the possibility mentioned in my post above. Perhaps he is unaware of the possibility. Of 23 documented deportations to an area described as the "Middle and South Levant," the origin points for these deportations were as follows:

83% Southern Zagros, Elam, and Babylonia
13% Urmia and Lake Van
4% Northern Zagros & Foothills
100% from East

Source:
Roads and Mass Deportations in the Neo-Assyrian Empire (https://www.academia.edu/2057625/Roads_and_Mass_Deportations_in_the_Neo-Assyrian_Empire)
David Danzig (https://nyu.academia.edu/DavidDanzig)

Not to take anything away from Vitaly, but when it comes to the Adiabene possibility, Ted Kandell and Matthew Gross have mentioned it for many years as well.

Mamluk
07-05-2014, 03:26 PM
unsure if this has already been posted

https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins-of-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites/2014-klyosov-article-on-jewish-dna-genealogy

In regards to Klyosov's article, I would like to mention something significant in regards to peninsular Arab R1a.

This past February, I visited Qatar and had the pleasure of meeting Saud, from the former DNA-forums, and an administrator for an Arab R1a project.
As is known, Arab tribes have a tradition of maintaining their family trees and lineages, going back several centuries, and in some cases before the Middle Ages. With the advances in Y-chromosome testing, Saud and his colleagues have embarked on an aggressive campaign to test descendants of various tribes in the Arabian peninsula.

Based on the results of the extensive testing done, the presence of R1a among Gulf Arabs is such:
J1 is generally present in the "true" Arabs, of Semitic origin... the Bedouin Arabs--Arabs of the desert. These are the traditional nomads, living in tents, inhabiting the arid interior of the peninsula.

R1a is a relatively recent arrival, present in the descendants of Arabized peoples that inhabit(ed) the coastal regions of the Persian Gulf, who have now been assimilated as "Arabs."
The ancestors of these people were not as nomadic, and did not inhabit the arid interior. Rather, they clung to the coasts, and lived settled in villages. These men were the fishermen, builders of boats called dhows, and the pearl-divers of the Gulf waters. They arrived to the area from the coast of southern Iran, and present-day Pakistan centuries ago. Some of these R1a Arabs, even prior to the advent of genealogical testing, acknowledged their (medieval) ancestry from Balochistan (Pakistan), Afghanistan, or Persia. Their vocabulary included many Persian-derived words, which are now not as commonly used by the younger generation.

(As an interesting side note, R1a Gulf Arabs maintain their maritime heritage by leisurely sailing the Gulf waters, and as Saud explained to me, it is mandatory for them to learn how to swim and dive as children--they are force-taught to swim by getting pushed off a boat in the middle of the sea!)

Prior to our current era the J1 and R1a tribes were often at political and cultural odds with each other, having now reconciled with the establishment of modern borders and a national identity, in light of decades' worth of economic success.

--------------------------------------------

Based on this, and in my opinion, the common ancestor between R1a Gulf Arabs and R1a Ashkenazi Levites would likely be found in present-day Iran, or in Central Asia.

--------------------------------------------

(How R1a is the identified Y-lineage of the Abraham-descended Banu Shaiba, keepers of the keys to the Ka'abah [of the Quraysh tribe in Mecca], is still a mystery to me.)

--------------------------------------------

And, I admit that I am still a stubborn proponent of the Khazar hypothesis.

parasar
07-10-2014, 09:05 PM
...

--------------------------------------------
Some of these R1a Arabs, even prior to the advent of genealogical testing, acknowledged their (medieval) ancestry from Balochistan (Pakistan), Afghanistan, or Persia. Their vocabulary included many Persian-derived words, which are now not as commonly used by the younger generation...

(How R1a is the identified Y-lineage of the Abraham-descended Banu Shaiba, keepers of the keys to the Ka'abah [of the Quraysh tribe in Mecca], is still a mystery to me.)

...

But many don't. Saud is likely quite correct about a number of these families, but I have received complaints from Arabs really upset with this whole R1a1 thing. Until al-Shibi, (the key-holder to Kaaba from prior to the prophet's time, and allowed to keep the key in perpetuity by the prophet) was found to be R1a1, many R1a1 Arabs refused to disclose their names so as to not raise doubts about their authenticity.

Later of course, al-Shibi further tested L657+, Y7+ (M6740 Mecca https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=ysnp ).
His closest GD=32/111 are - M8712, Albulushi and M8898, Obaid Qamber Obaid alhossayni
The first could well be of Baloch origin (called in Swahili and Arabic Bulush http://archive.org/stream/balochracehistor00damerich/balochracehistor00damerich_djvu.txt ).
Qamber Khel is an Afridi Pakhtoon sub group in Khyber.

I would also note that many Baloch as well as Khyber Pakhtoons claim an Arab or Jewish descent, and a Khyber is indeed located in Arabia north of Mecca.

Besides Banu Shaiba of the Koraish, among many others the al-Wahhab/Ohba line of Najd is also L657. 195320 Al-Whbh Al-Tamimi Fahad Al ohba Al Tamimi https://www.familytreedna.com/public/middle-east/default.aspx?section=ysnp

There is also the abna Tamim connection seen in Yemen, Khorasan, Sogd, Armenia, Najd etc. which perhaps explains R1a1 presence in Arabia prior to the Islamic period.

Humanist
07-10-2014, 09:13 PM
I am still a stubborn proponent of the Khazar hypothesis.

What is the genetic evidence supporting the Khazar hypothesis?

parasar
07-11-2014, 12:57 AM
What is the genetic evidence supporting the Khazar hypothesis?

Mamluk himself is part of the puzzle as he is Z2472+ upstream of Z2474/M582 along with the Iberian HG01617 who shares SNPs further down.

We could also perhaps test some purported Khazar descendants in the Crimea and Kiev areas (and perhaps in Spain (Toledo/Tolitula) and Azerbaizan if they can be located). pg 177 http://books.google.com/books?id=hEuIveNl9kcC&pg=PA193

(1) Nicholas Andrew Bell, a descendant of Jews from Kiev who claimed Khazar ancestry; (2) Ben R. Rosenthal and Hinda Waldman, descendants of Jews from Ladyzhin who claimed Khazar ... (3) David M. Razler ... (4) Gregory A. Kosarin ... Kazarinsky

Humanist
07-11-2014, 01:00 AM
Here is a map of "Khazaria." I think that some of these supposed "Khazar" lines may be confused with genuine Jewish links with areas to the south, including Mesopotamia and Persia.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/russia/Khazaria_map_from_600_till_850.jpg

parasar
07-11-2014, 01:39 AM
Here is a map of "Khazaria." I think that some of these supposed "Khazar" lines may be confused with genuine Jewish links with areas to the south, including Mesopotamia and Persia.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/russia/Khazaria_map_from_600_till_850.jpg

The Khazars had been driven out from the core area of Khazaria (the Caspian-Volga region) shown for 650 to 850AD. After 1000 AD Khazaria was limited to Crimea (Gazaria). In 1158 they tried to recover some of their ancestral lands.

DMXX
07-11-2014, 01:53 AM
Looking at the map, the core Khazar area was situated in the northern Caucasus. Indirect genetic evidence of Khazar continuity in modern Ashkenazi Jewish folk should therefore include signs of North Caucasian admixture (I have IBD segments in mind here) that sets them apart from both East European and Near-Eastern groups which aren't likely to have it.

Do Ashkenazi Jews show any evidence of this? Has this been looked into?

Also, I couldn't help notice on the map that a Greek colony once existed beneath the Aral sea... Could this be the source of that consistent (but very low frequency) Y-DNA I enthusiasts looking into that part of Eurasia (such as myself) keep noticing?

parasar
07-11-2014, 02:04 AM
Looking at the map, the core Khazar area was situated in the northern Caucasus. Indirect genetic evidence of Khazar continuity in modern Ashkenazi Jewish folk should therefore include signs of North Caucasian admixture (I have IBD segments in mind here) that sets them apart from both East European and Near-Eastern groups which aren't likely to have it.

Do Ashkenazi Jews show any evidence of this? Has this been looked into? ...



How about your matches? You are part Azeri right? The eastern portion of modern Azerbaijan would be part of the Khazar core. The Caspian there was (is?) known as the Khazar deniz.

Humanist
07-11-2014, 02:14 AM
How about your matches? You are part Azeri right? The eastern portion of modern Azerbaijan would be part of the Khazar core. The Caspian there was (is?) known as the Khazar deniz.

The "Khazar core" was located that far south?

Humanist
07-11-2014, 02:29 AM
Looking at the map, the core Khazar area was situated in the northern Caucasus. Indirect genetic evidence of Khazar continuity in modern Ashkenazi Jewish folk should therefore include signs of North Caucasian admixture (I have IBD segments in mind here) that sets them apart from both East European and Near-Eastern groups which aren't likely to have it.

Do Ashkenazi Jews show any evidence of this? Has this been looked into?

No...


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/heatmap.png

DMXX
07-11-2014, 02:53 AM
How about your matches? You are part Azeri right? The eastern portion of modern Azerbaijan would be part of the Khazar core. The Caspian there was (is?) known as the Khazar deniz.

I am half Azeri (Iranian, not from the Republic), yes. I also do have more "real" North Caucasian-specific IBD segments than the average Iranian (confirmed by both Dodecad and Eurogenes).

However, my results are not informative in this context, as I have an oral tradition of recent ancestry from some sort of Iranian-speaking group in the Caucasus. A minority of my ancestry is therefore from an extent group north of Iran. That confounds any interpretation of my results.


No...


Fantastic we have some data to confirm or deny the link - In this case, a fairly strong denial.

parasar
07-11-2014, 02:57 AM
The "Khazar core" was located that far south?

Difficult to be sure, but yes I think so. Though Sassanid and later Arab pressure had them move back and forth.
As early as ~200AD their presence is mentioned in Armenia by Moses of Chorene (writing in the 5th century). Arab account also places them in the Georgia (Jurzan) and Azerbaijain (Arran) which after 531AD came under Sassanid control.
http://books.google.com/books?id=bcWtttJL3WEC&pg=PA305

parasar
07-11-2014, 04:09 AM
Difficult to be sure, but yes I think so. Though Sassanid and later Arab pressure had them move back and forth.
As early as ~200AD their presence is mentioned in Armenia by Moses of Chorene (writing in the 5th century). Arab account also places them in the Georgia (Jurzan) and Azerbaijain (Arran) which after 531AD came under Sassanid control.
http://books.google.com/books?id=bcWtttJL3WEC&pg=PA305

The above account also mentions a city of Kabalah of al-Khazar and a Sughdabil a settlement of the (abna) Sogdhians I had mentioned in post 200 above in this thread. It would be interesting to find out if any L657 is present in the Sughdabil area.

AJL
07-11-2014, 04:33 AM
The "Khazar core" was located that far south?

I don't believe so -- more around Volgograd and Astrakhan, IIRC? In fact we do have a single non-Ashkenazi Z2122 sample from a Russian from Volgograd.

I have not seen indication of much autosomal overlap but there are from memory some unique segments around the 5 Mb threshold (based on old deCODEme upload results). Hard to say what those mean.

Probably the best evidence for the Khazar theory is the fact that Z2122 is found in concentration among several northern Caucasus peoples such as Karachay/Balkars and Adygei, and rarely also in Tatars (who are mainly in the brother clade Z2123). These peoples collectively are probably among the better proxies for Khazars extant, certainly better than Armenians, used by Elhaik.

This is not a smoking gun without better archaeological evidence or sampling or phylogenetic resolution though. We don't have the best estimate on the age of Z2122, M582, or similar SNPs' TMRCAs, since we have few samples apart from Ashkenazi-Levites, but Z2122 could be as much as 4,000 years old, about the time of Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers.

what remains to be seen then is whether the Z2122 overlap results from expansions of (Proto-Indo)Iranian peoples on both sides of the Caucasus, or rather from a single source from north of the Caucasus in what is now eastern Ukraine, European Russia, or nearby.

We have several Z2122 and better still F1345 in Europe -- much better tested, of course -- and these are very thin and the distribution seem to coincide fairly well with areas that were home to Alans or Sarmatian auxiliaries in the Roman Empire. (Alania in 650 CE is pretty well identical to the Karachay and Adygei republics today.)

So there does not seem to be sufficient evidence to discard the Khazar theory based on Z2122's current spread: but in the light of M582's appearance elsewhere, if Z2122 turns out to be surprisingly widespread in some villages of Kurds or Azeris or far northwestern Iranians, we shouldn't be completely surprised either.

parasar
07-11-2014, 06:48 PM
...
Probably the best evidence for the Khazar theory is the fact that Z2122 is found in concentration among several northern Caucasus peoples such as Karachay/Balkars and Adygei, and rarely also in Tatars (who are mainly in the brother clade Z2123). These peoples collectively are probably among the better proxies for Khazars extant, certainly better than Armenians, used by Elhaik.

...

While there were many ethnicities in Khazaria, among the Khazars themselves there were two distinct and very different kinds.

The Khazars do not resemble the Turks ... There are two kinds ...

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=UPCworiqUqcC&pg=PT239

AJL
07-11-2014, 08:40 PM
While there were many ethnicities in Khazaria, among the Khazars themselves there were two distinct and very different kinds.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=UPCworiqUqcC&pg=PT239

I believe a similar distinction is prevalent in Turkic cultures even today and may not be, strictly speaking, genetic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Turks_and_Black_Turks

parasar
07-11-2014, 10:30 PM
I believe a similar distinction is prevalent in Turkic cultures even today and may not be, strictly speaking, genetic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Turks_and_Black_Turks

Ibn Fadlan is quite precise when he says Khazars don't look like Turks ie they were not mongoloid looking.
Some looked like Hindus while others were fair.

Mamluk
07-13-2014, 02:18 AM
His closest GD=32/111 are - M8712, Albulushi and M8898, Obaid Qamber Obaid alhossayni
The first could well be of Baloch origin
Qamber Khel is an Afridi Pakhtoon sub group in Khyber.

I would also note that many Baloch as well as Khyber Pakhtoons claim an Arab or Jewish descent, and a Khyber is indeed located in Arabia north of Mecca.

Besides Banu Shaiba of the Koraish, among many others the al-Wahhab/Ohba line of Najd is also L657.


To an Arabic speaker, Al-Balushi does indeed mean "the one who is Baloch" (i.e. from Balochistan).
------------------------
In the pan-Arab mindset of the Arabian Peninsula (I'm including Jordan, but not including Lebanon [actually much anti-Arab sentiment exists here], NW Syria and Palestine*) it appears generally embarrassing to be descended from non-Arab folk. Given the ancient and established tribal system, and the affiliations that royal families have with some tribes, it is considered more noble to be descended from a true Arabian lineage, rather than Turkish, Greek, Persian, or heaven forbid, Indian-Pakistani or African, even if genetic testing reveals the truth. From what I gathered from public FTDNA results, most Y chromosome diversity is to be had in the western part of the peninsula (in and around Mecca; the Quraish tribe) as is expected, with so many centuries of pilgrimage from around the world.

My interpretation for this type of behavior (in this case, embarrassed about carrying R1a1a) is that for the past several decades the Gulf countries (especially Saudi Arabia) were the most economically influential, and this has turned into cultural and political influence as well. I have personally observed societies (in NW Jordan and Syria) that once had Turkish-culture inclinations have about-faced and now have Gulf-Arab-culture inclinations. (Saudi Arabia has tried to use their wealth to conscript non-Arab Muslim communities to implement their version of Islam, and it has worked in some places, but has been rejected by others: an acquaintance of mine, who is a history professor from Kosovo, related how a delegation from Saudi Arabia arrived to one of the Prishtina area mosques, and they sat down with the local imam and his congregation to discuss funding with strings attached. The imam, in his Balkan-splendor--Albanian-style rage--physically picked up the leader of the delegation by his lapels and threw him out the front doors. And to paraphrase, the imam said "We have been fine for these many centuries without you.") Arabs have also forgotten that wealthy Muslims from India funded charities and endowments in Mecca, and prior to the discovery of oil Gulf Arabs went to India to look for a job!! Also from the religious perspective, they would rather have ancestors that were indigenous to the holy lands and related to prophetic lineages, than being from elsewhere (i.e. related to the domestic servants in their household, or the construction workers building skyscrapers). And it is further embarrassing to carry R1a1a especially if it means that their ancestors arrived to the Gulf via way of... IRAN (!). Politics (and the Sunni-Shi'a divide) are involved in this too.

*In Palestine, Lebanon and Syria, (and Egypt too) there is more open-mindedness regarding ancestral origins, and much more diversity in city-dwellers, because the societies here have been cosmopolitan since recorded history.

Mamluk
07-13-2014, 02:23 AM
What is the genetic evidence supporting the Khazar hypothesis?

In my simplistic view, it's the distribution of R1a1a Z2472 (F1345).

Mamluk
07-13-2014, 02:56 AM
We could also perhaps test some purported Khazar descendants in the Crimea and Kiev areas (and perhaps in Spain (Toledo/Tolitula) and Azerbaizan if they can be located).

That's another reason why I have to discount autosomal analysis. Khazars as an entity existed too far back in time. However, Y chromosomes are intact.

----
I'll use my family's ancestral home town as a case in point:

You can't use autosomal analysis on the people of Safed, Israel, in 2014, and draw conclusions about who lived there 200 years ago. Now it is primarily Ashkenazi Jewish (I'm not specifying Ashkenazi Levite, by the way), with a sprinkling of Sephardic Jewish.
100 years ago it was primarily "Arab," but if you ask a guy like Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) and other Westerners who visited the region, the townsfolk weren't called Arab, rather they were "Turks." But the Bedouins and fellahin were called "Arab." If you go back to the 15th century you will find the arrival of Balkan janissaries settling in with Kipchak Turk mamluks who were there since the late 13th century. Going back only 50 more years none of these people were here--it was inhabited by Franks (the Knights Hospitaller and then the Knights Templar). Go back to the time of Christ and you have an entirely different people altogether.

Similarly you cannot apply autosomal analysis of the people currently inhabiting Crimea, and the north or south Caucasus, or even Ukraine for that matter, to discuss if Ashkenazi Jews (I did not specify Levites) are related to them, the way you can apply autosomal analysis of people living in other parts of the world (British Isles, Scandinavia, or relatively endogamous groups like Alawites and Druze.) That does not make sense. People here were annihilated, driven out, etc., as we know from history: Sviatoslav's massacre of the Khazars and other non-Slavic peoples, the Mongol invasions, etc.

Taken from The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. 7, by Edward Gibbon (b. 1737 - d. 1794)

In regards to the 13th century Mongol invasions of Eastern Europe:

The whole country north of the Danube* was lost in a day, and depopulated in a summer; and the ruins of cities and churches were overspread with the bones of the natives, who expiated the sins of their Turkish ancestors.

---------
*North of the Danube, I see Romania and Hungary.
And even though the 13th century is too far back in time for proper autosomal analysis, my father and wife have autosomal matches (>6cM) with people from this region.

I think the Mongol invasions and Slavic invasions helps to explain the dearth of R1a-F1345 in a region in which it was once prolific, having now survived in small single-digit percentages, conspicuous in the R1a Ashkenazi Levites (I did not say Ashkenazi Jews, but rather specified the R1a-Levites), who, if descended from Khazars, would have sought refuge in the towns and cities of Poland and Kiev and its surroundings, after their former empire was cut to pieces. There are also accounts of some Khazar Jews converting to Islam (perhaps their descendants comprise the modern Tatars also).

Humanist
07-13-2014, 03:17 AM
In my simplistic view, it's the distribution of R1a1a Z2472 (F1345).

Can you refer me to a map of its distribution (that you have in mind), and how it is relevant to Khazars and Ashkenazi Levites?

Mamluk
07-13-2014, 08:39 AM
Can you refer me to a map of its distribution (that you have in mind), and how it is relevant to Khazars and Ashkenazi Levites?

These are the R1a1a carriers of Z2472 (F1345).
The orange markers are Levites with the downstream CTS-6 marker, the fuchsia markers are non-Jewish individuals who have some additional downstream markers, the green individuals are non-Jewish and do not have additional downstream markers.

I am the green one marked in Galilee. The other green one, in Samsun, says his grandfather was born in Ukraine, and immigrated to Turkey.

2074

Michał
07-13-2014, 04:15 PM
These are the R1a1a carriers of Z2472 (F1345).
The orange markers are Levites with the downstream CTS-6 marker, the fuchsia markers are non-Jewish individuals who have some additional downstream markers, the green individuals are non-Jewish and do not have additional downstream markers.

I am the green one marked in Galilee. The other green one, in Samsun, says his grandfather was born in Ukraine, and immigrated to Turkey.
2074
There are at least several things that make the above map (showing the distribution of F1345) practically useless when discussing the origin of the Ashkenazi Levites subclade of R1a.

Firstly, according to my own SNP-based estimates (https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/y-dna-analysis/snp-based-calculations-of-time-to-mrca-for-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites), F1345 is about 4500 years old (while Klyosov suggests a slightly younger age of about 4000 years, based on his STR calculations). This strongly suggests that your lineage and all other non-AL sublineages of F1345 shown on your map have been separated from the lineage ancestral to the Ashkenazi-Levites clade R1a-Y2619 (a daughter clade of CTS6/M582) more than 2000 years before the Khazar empire was founded, and probably long before any of those R1a lineages had a chance to become assimilated by the Turkic people.

Secondly, it would be much more appropriate to show the distribution of CTS6/M582 (a clade ancestral to the AL subclade) instead. According to the paper by Rootsi et al., the distribution of CTS6/M582 clearly demonstrates that this particular subclade of F1345 is practically absent in Eastern Europe and extremely rare in the Northern Caucasus region, while it shows a significantly higher frequency (and at the same time relatively high diversity) in the Middle East. It is also worth noting that these numbers are based on some large samples representing each region in question, while your map is just showing the ancestral locations of some FTDNA customers, which may obviously lead to a serious bias, especially when we know that all these clades show only very small frequencies in all countries in Europe and Asia.

Thirdly, the vast majority of the data points on your map are the ancestral locations of the Ashkenazi Levites, which is very misleading when presenting this map as something that would represent the true distribution of R1a-F1345. BTW, it is also worth noting that if the Ashkenazi Levites patrilineages were indeed derived from the Khazar Empire, while the remaining Ashkenazi patrilineages (including those from haplogroups J1, J2, E1, G and R1b) were of non-Khazar origin, we should see an apparent eastward shift when comparing the distribution of R1a-Y2619 with the distribution of other lineages. In fact, there is no such eastward shift at all, and all these Ashkenazi sublineages show exactly the same distribution pattern, suggesting that they were all present in the same “Proto-Ashkenazi” population (residing most likely in Western Germany). One may of course claim that the entire Ashkenazi population (including nearly all Ashkenazi patrilineages) originates from the Khazar Empire, but this is of course negatively verified by the autosomal data.

I have a very strong impression that people still support the “Khazar theory” because of some sentimental issues rather than because of any strong evidence that stays behind this hypothesis, and this is ok for me, but only as long as this is not associated with ignoring all the data that strongly support some other scenarios and make the Khazar theory simply a much less likely (if not implausible) alternative.



To summarize, there seem to be three major reasons why the Middle Eastern origin of R1a-Y2619 is definitely much more likely to become commonly accepted than the Khazar theory, and these include:

1) The geographical distribution (including both frequency and diversity) of R1a-CTS6/M582 (a clade parental to the AL subclade R1a-Y2619) strongly favors the Middle Eastern origin of Y2619.

2) There are no differences between the distribution of ancestral locations for members of R1a-Y2619 and any other major Ashkenazi Y-DNA lineages (with at least some of those lineages clearly derived from the Near East).

3) The Khazar theory offers no satisfactory explanation for the extremely strong association of R1a-Y2619 with the Levite caste, while such explanation is provided by the Nethinim hypothesis (a variant of the Middle Eastern theory).

Mamluk
07-13-2014, 04:54 PM
Secondly, it would be much more appropriate to show the distribution of CTS6/M582 (a clade ancestral to the AL subclade) instead. According to the paper by Rootsi et al., the distribution of CTS6/M582 clearly demonstrates that this particular subclade of F1345 is practically absent in Eastern Europe and extremely rare in the Northern Caucasus region, while it shows a significantly higher frequency (and at the same time relatively high diversity) in the Middle East. It is also worth noting that these numbers are based on some large samples representing each region in question, while your map is just showing the ancestral locations of some FTDNA customers, which may obviously lead to a serious bias, especially when we know that all these clades show only very small frequencies in all countries in Europe and Asia.


I need more education about this, and I'm trying to understand it more, so please excuse my naive questions. So are CTS6 and M582 equivalent to each other? If so, my understanding is that CTS6 is only found in Levites that ultimately came from Eastern Europe and Germany. If M582 is downstream, I cannot find a map of it. I must have been out-of-the-loop for the past several months, but supposedly M582 has its highest diversity within R1a Iranians. Which would mean that these Iranians also carry F1345??? Who are these people, and why haven't I heard of them before, and where I can I see a table or chart showing the data?

You also indicate that the map posted (which is from Semargl's site) does not show the true distribution of F1345. I would like to see a map showing the actual distribution.

According to you calculation, how old is the R1a Levite clade?
If F1345 is 4500 years old, then that makes Z2122 even older, and L342 even older than that, and Z93 very very old, relatively speaking. So are the previous calculations on the age of R1a towards the base of the tree wrong? That means R1a and R1b diverged even further back in time than previously thought?

Mamluk
07-13-2014, 05:09 PM
I have a very strong impression that people still support the “Khazar theory” because of some sentimental issues rather than because of any strong evidence that stays behind this hypothesis, and this is ok for me, but only as long as this is not associated with ignoring all the data that strongly support some other scenarios and make the Khazar theory simply a much less likely (if not implausible) alternative.

To summarize, there seem to be three major reasons why the Middle Eastern origin of R1a-Y2619 is definitely much more likely to become commonly accepted than the Khazar theory, and these include:

1) The geographical distribution (including both frequency and diversity) of R1a-CTS6/M582 (a clade parental to the AL subclade R1a-Y2619) strongly favors the Middle Eastern origin of Y2619.

2) There are no differences between the distribution of ancestral locations for members of R1a-Y2619 and any other major Ashkenazi Y-DNA lineages (with at least some of those lineages clearly derived from the Near East).

3) The Khazar theory offers no satisfactory explanation for the extremely strong association of R1a-Y2619 with the Levite caste, while such explanation is provided by the Nethinim hypothesis (a variant of the Middle Eastern theory).

I've read about some people who have these "sentimental issues" regarding the Khazar hypothesis. I'm definitely not one of them, although I could have reasons to be!

The only reason I care about discussing this subject is because it relates to me and my paternal family origins, and I'm trying to figure it out.

I am quick to change my mind about the Khazar hypothesis, once I can fully understand the data presented (and I'm trying to understand the Rootsi, et al paper, and where these M582 Iranians suddenly appeared--I was oblivious to them--were they part of the group tested Z2122+ back when it was first discovered?)

Mamluk
07-13-2014, 05:45 PM
The only reason I care about discussing this subject is because it relates to me and my paternal family origins, and I'm trying to figure it out.



The mamluks that settled in Safed were called Kipchaks, and history tells us their last point of departure from their place of origin was Crimea.

I was in Safed last May with napobo3, and we toured some sites with an archaeologist from the Israel Antiquities Authority. Safed abounds with mamluk artifacts and buildings--including things that were beneath our noses and are often oblivious to the common eye.
And the Turkic names of mamluks that left their legacy in Safed survive: my favorite is the name of a powerful governor, inscribed on a mausoleum (one of the oldest intact buildings in all of Israel), Musa bin Aruqtay al-Qipchaqi, which means "Moses, son of Aruqtay, the Kipchak."

The mausoleum is a 2-minute walk from where my ancestors had their home and property, which is on a rampart of Baybars' fortress and slopes down to the moat, and adjacent to a shrine that was consecrated by a mamluk prince named Baktimur Juqandar.

My interest is primarily focused on these Kipchaks and who they were. It just so happens that the Desht-i-Kipchak (the Kipchak Steppe) and Khazaria occupy the same geographical area, and in addition I share F1345 with Ashkenazi Levites. There has to be a relation somehow.

Agamemnon
07-13-2014, 06:49 PM
Given the ancient and established tribal system, and the affiliations that royal families have with some tribes, it is considered more noble to be descended from a true Arabian lineage, rather than Turkish, Greek, Persian, or heaven forbid, Indian-Pakistani or African, even if genetic testing reveals the truth.

Very true, I recall a couple of cases where arabs got the "N" word on arab forums after discovering they were E-M34 or E-V22 (I kid you not)... Tragicomic, to say the least.

I think this is mainly due to this tendency among Arabs to claim Adnanite, Qahtanite and Biblical lineages... This is reminiscent of Berbers claiming Arab ancestry and tribal affiliation to attain higher status and the same thing happened in the Levant at some point.

Humanist
07-13-2014, 07:18 PM
Very true, I recall a couple of cases where arabs got the "N" word on arab forums after discovering they were E-M34 or E-V22 (I kid you not)... Tragicomic, to say the least.

I think this is mainly due to this tendency among Arabs to claim Adnanite, Qahtanite and Biblical lineages... This is reminiscent of Berbers claiming Arab ancestry and tribal affiliation to attain higher status and the same thing happened in the Levant at some point.

That is strange. Because many Arabs are indeed African admixed, whether it is represented in their Y-DNA line or not.

MfA
07-13-2014, 07:23 PM
Rootsi et al.

Near Eastern populations are the only populations in which haplogroup R1a-M582 was found at significant frequencies (Table 1). Moreover, the representative samples displayed substantial diversity even within this geographic region (Fig. 1b). Higher frequencies and diversities often suggest lineage autochthony. Hence, we can assess whether or not the origin of haplogroup R1a-M582 is in present-day Iran and eastern Anatolia, or rather the broader region of the Near East. Our data demonstrate the occurrence of R1a-M582 among different Iranian populations, among Kurds from Cilician Anatolia and Kazakhstan, and among Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews. These observations, and the STR network delineating an internal R1a-M582 structure, might attest to a broad Near Eastern distribution range of this minor haplogroup that survived to the present day at low frequencies among Iranian Kerman, Iranian Azeri, Kurds and Jews. Haplogroup R1a-M582 was not detected in samples from Iraq or among Bedouins, Druze and Palestinians sampled in Israel.
Palisto's blogpost about the study
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com.tr/2013/12/ashkenazi-levite-jews-and-their-iranian.html

Underhill et al.
Maju's blogpost about Underhill et al.
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.tr/2014/03/y-dna-r1a-spread-from-iran.html

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION(Supplementary Tables 1-5)
Table S3
Y-STR haplotype diversity
sub-haplogroup haplotypes total haplotype diversity*
R-M582 Near/Middle East 13 0,974
R-M582 Jews 22 0,844



Region Population Last defining Y-chr marker DYS19 D388 DYS389I DYS389b DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS461=A7.2 DYS385 a DYS385 b DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYS456 DYS458 DYS635 Y GATA H4
East/Central Europe Austrian M582 16 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
East/Central Europe Austrian M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 25 12
East/Central Europe Hungarian M582 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
East/Central Europe Slovak M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 11
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 15 23 11
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 15 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 18 24 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 15 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 17 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 12 20 14 15 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 17 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 15 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 13 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 14 15 23 13
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 16 26 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Near/Middle East Gilan, Iran M582 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 15 18 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 16 12 14 17 25 10 11 12 12 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 14 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 15 12 13 16 25 11 11 14 10 10 10 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 12
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 15 12 13 16 25 11 11 14 10 10 10 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 12
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 16 12 14 17 25 10 11 13 12 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 14 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 15 12 13 16 25 11 11 13 10 10 10 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 11
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 16 12 14 18 26 10 11 13 13 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 14 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Kerman M582 16 12 14 17 25 10 11 13 12 10 11 13 14 11 20 16 14 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Kerman M582 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 13 14 11 20 16 14 23 12
Near/Middle East Iranian Kerman M582 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 11 11 14 14 11 20 16 14 23 12
Near/Middle East Kurd M582 16 12 14 17 25 10 11 13 12 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 14 23 13
Near/Middle East Kurd, Cilicia M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 10 11 15 14 11 20 16 15 23 13
Near/Middle East Kurd, Cilicia M582 16 12 14 17 25 10 11 13 12 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 15 23 13
West/North Europe German_West M582 17 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 25 12


Despite this last manifestation, the harshest attempt to take over and control the tribal territory of the Kurds was led by the Zankids. During the years 525/1130 in order to secure the hinterland of their capital, Mosul, the Zankids carried out an offensive on the kurdish principalities of that region : the Humaydiyya, the Mihrâniyya (Hadhbâniyya) and the Hakkâriyya citadels were taken. The Zankids started also to massively recruit Kurds in their army. This resulted in unleashing an important flow of kurdish population in Syria and Palestine and particularly those who participated to the Counter-Crusade.

The Ayyubid period is the climax of the kurdish integration within the main cities of Syria and Egypt to the extent that the highest religious, administrative or judicial authorities in Egypt could be kurdish even very late during the mameluk period. Many big cities of the Near East at the end of the Ayyubid period had a kurdish quarter(Eddé, James).

This cycle finishes with the end of the Ayyubid Dynasty, when the Mamluks cease the power in Egypt and Syria. With the Mamluks we can notice two phenomena. The disappearance of the Kurds as a major military force in the State and especially within the group of high ranking amirs and the reappearance of the Kurds in the tribal territory thanks to the fall of the Turkmen auxiliary dynasties and thanks to global politics. The tribal territory becomes a stamp space because of the warm and cold war between Mamluks and Mongols (Amitai-Preiss). The mamluk direct rule never reached further east than al-Rahba and the Mongol influence, even if it manifested in very violent reminders in the tribal territory, has always been a ponctual or say a seasonal one as John Meloy describe the same phenomenon in mamluk Hedjâz. The return of the Kurds to the edges (to bedouinity ?) closes the cycle.


The tribal territory of the Kurds through Arabic medieval historiography: spatial dynamics, territorial categories, and Khaldunian paradigm - Boris James (IFPO/ University of Paris 10) (http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/35/01/18/PDF/Tribal_territory_of_the_Kurds.pdf)

Agamemnon
07-13-2014, 07:24 PM
That is strange. Because many Arabs are indeed African admixed, whether it is represented in their Y-DNA line or not.

Indeed, which is why this all seems very tragicomic to me (and not tragic per se)!

Humanist
07-13-2014, 07:35 PM
Rootsi et al.

Palisto's blogpost about the study
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com.tr/2013/12/ashkenazi-levite-jews-and-their-iranian.html

Underhill et al.
Maju's blogpost about Underhill et al.
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.tr/2014/03/y-dna-r1a-spread-from-iran.html

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION(Supplementary Tables 1-5)
Table S3
Y-STR haplotype diversity
sub-haplogroup haplotypes total haplotype diversity*
R-M582 Near/Middle East 13 0,974
R-M582 Jews 22 0,844



Region Population Last defining Y-chr marker DYS19 D388 DYS389I DYS389b DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS461=A7.2 DYS385 a DYS385 b DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYS456 DYS458 DYS635 Y GATA H4



The tribal territory of the Kurds through Arabic medieval historiography: spatial dynamics, territorial categories, and Khaldunian paradigm - Boris James (IFPO/ University of Paris 10) (http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/35/01/18/PDF/Tribal_territory_of_the_Kurds.pdf)


What is the connection between the "Tribal territory of the Kurds" and the haplotypes you posted?

I should add. That I think the link between the Levite R1a and Kurds, and other Indo-Iranian speaking peoples precedes the events described in the "Tribal territory of the Kurds" (i.e. before the 2nd millennium CE).

MfA
07-13-2014, 08:22 PM
What is the connection between the "Tribal territory of the Kurds" and the haplotypes you posted?

I should add. That I think the link between the Levite R1a and Kurds, and other Indo-Iranian speaking peoples precedes the events described in the "Tribal territory of the Kurds" (i.e. before the 2nd millennium CE).

I thought I quoted Mamluk's post where he stated he couldn't follow latest developments and who are those people? etc. thus I posted the haplotypes, a few blogposts and etc.

Clearly, There were many Kurdish chiefmen and soldiers during Bahrid Mamluk period in Egypt and ''intermarried'' is the key word here.

http://abload.de/img/desktop_2014_07_13_237jjgf.png
The Cambridge History of Egypt, Volume 1 (http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=y3FtXpB_tqMC&pg)

Egyptian Kurds are now just a handful people and the ones from Ayyubidis era are already assimilated within Egyptians.

lgmayka
07-13-2014, 09:49 PM
Firstly, according to my own SNP-based estimates (https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/y-dna-analysis/snp-based-calculations-of-time-to-mrca-for-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites), F1345 is about 4500 years old (while Klyosov suggests a slightly younger age of about 4000 years, based on his STR calculations).
Yes, this means that other members of R1a-F1345 (and even more so R1a-Z2122) are only very distantly related to R1a-CTS6. Thus, the origin of CTS6 does not tell us the origin of F1345 or Z2122, nor vice-versa. One blogger steadfastly insisted that Z2122 as well as its progeny have a Middle Eastern origin. I myself see little evidence of that so far.

parasar
07-13-2014, 11:32 PM
...

I have a very strong impression that people still support the “Khazar theory” because of some sentimental issues rather than because of any strong evidence that stays behind this hypothesis, and this is ok for me, but only as long as this is not associated with ignoring all the data that strongly support some other scenarios and make the Khazar theory simply a much less likely (if not implausible) alternative.

...

I doubt there is any sentimental issue involved.
If some one noted that White Australians are completely different from Australo-Aborigines, and if the descent was to be established to White Australians, what would be the reason to test the Aborigines.

In this case we have the following:
1. The Khazars were different from other inhabitants of Khazaria.
2. The Khazars were so totally eliminated from Khazaria that is no trace of them left there.
3. Of the overall Khazar population, in the Ashkenazi case we are dealing with a miniscule subset - as "According to Ibn Faḍlan, Ibn Dastah, and others, only the king and the grandees were followers of Judaism. The rest of the Chazars were Christians, Mohammedaus, and heathens ... Many members of the Chazarian royal family emigrated to Spain."

So then why would anyone test populations of north Caucasus to establish or disprove Khazar connection. You would instead test the areas the Khazars and their Seljuk relatives were supposed to have repaired to such as Kiev, Crimea, Azeri areas, Kerman, Spain etc.

If you could show in any form that today's north of Caucasus populations are descended of the same Khazar ruling class that converted to Judaism, then you would have a point, but there has been no such showing.

Humanist
07-14-2014, 12:52 AM
Ibn Fadlan is quite precise when he says Khazars don't look like Turks ie they were not mongoloid looking.
Some looked like Hindus while others were fair.

This argument is somewhat similar to what I have said regarding the possible "Aramean" component in Assyrians. Basically, based on the genetic evidence, one cannot reconcile our genome with a principally Aramean origin, given that we are obviously not principally "Levantine," despite the fact that our language, Sureth is an eastern member of the NW Semitic family of languages. What I have argued is that the characterization of these peoples we have come to know as the "Arameans," thanks in large part to their treatment in the Judeo-Christian tradition as prototypical "Western Semites" has succeeded in obfuscating the question regarding their origin(s).

Something I posted on another forum:



The Aramaeans in the NW settled in the heart of what was Hurrian and Hittite country*. The product, the Aramaeans of later centuries, or more appropriately, Aramaic-speaking groups, were a mix of Semites (the original Aramaeans, and other Semitic peoples), Indo-Europeans, and Hurrians, in my opinion. A motley bunch.


Wikipedia

*

The Hittite Suppiluliumas I permanently defeated Mitanni and conquered Aleppo in the 14th century BC. Aleppo had cultic importance to the Hittites for being the center of worship of the Storm-God.**

**

Teshub (also written Teshup or Tešup; cuneiform dIM) was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun (with variant stem forms Tarhunt, Tarhuwant, Tarhunta), although this name is from the Hittite root *tarh- "to defeat, conquer".

Goldschlager
07-14-2014, 01:48 AM
Shaul Stampfer, “Did the Khazars Convert to Judaism?,” Jewish Social Studies: His- tory, Culture, Society n.s. 19, no. 3 (Spring/Summer 2013): 1–72


The view that some or all of the Khazars, a central Asian people, converted to Judaism at some point during the ninth or tenth century is widely accepted. A careful ex- amination of the sources, however, shows that some of them are pseudepigraphic, and the rest are of questionable reliability. Many of the most reliable contemporary texts that mention Khazars say nothing about their conversion, nor is there any archaeological evidence for it. This leads to the conclusion that such a conversion never took place.

From the paper on Ibn Fadlan quoted in a prior entry:

Another relevant document on the Khazars’ conversion is found in the travelogue of Ahmad ibn Fadlan, who set off in 921 on a journey that brought him to the kingdom of the Bulgars, near Khazaria.112 His lively description of the Khazars is therefore based on informants and possibly on literary sources but not on firsthand knowledge.113 We do not have the complete text of ibn Fadlan’s travel report but only a large fragment, found in 1923 in Meshed (Iran), that ends in the middle of the description of the Khazars and lacks any reference to their Jewish- ness. However, a long citation of ibn Fadlan by Yaqut ibn ‘And Allahl-Hamawi (1179–1229), who wrote long after the Khazar state had ceased to exist, contains the laconic comment that “the Khazars and their king are all Jews.”114 This same long quotation notes, “and the king has nine judges of Jews, Christians, Muslims, and idol worship- pers. If a legal case arises for some people these [judges] adjudicate it.”115 This might have been written by ibn Fadlan, or it might have been added by Yaqut or by the copyist of ibn Fadlan whom he relied on.116

According to ibn Fadlan, the Khazar kings each had 25 wives and 60 concubines. In addition, if a king ruled for 40 years, he was put to death on the grounds that after so many years he would be confused and no longer sharp witted. Ibn Fadlan also reported that when a Khazar king died, his body was buried in a special house that was then flooded by a river; the individuals involved in the burial were killed so that the exact location of the burial could never be discov- ered. Almost all of this is in clear violation of Jewish law,117 and it also seems rather fantastic.118 Ibn Fadlan also makes no reference to ob- servance of any Jewish rituals, even though Sabbath observance and other rituals might be expected to have aroused some attention.119

Ibn Fadlan’s fascination with the bizarre, his lack of a critical sense with regard to stories he was told, and his lack of explanation for the conversion to Judaism weaken the claim that he can be regarded as a reliable source for Khazar conversion to Judaism. It would be simpler to claim that he relied uncritically on either an earlier source or a traveler for his story.13]

Michał
07-14-2014, 10:13 AM
So are CTS6 and M582 equivalent to each other? If so, my understanding is that CTS6 is only found in Levites that ultimately came from Eastern Europe and Germany. If M582 is downstream, I cannot find a map of it.
These are two separate SNPs, but they are currently regarded as positioned on about the same level in the R1a tree. In other words, they are just 2 of 12 known SNPs that separate the upstream F1345 level (encompassing F1345 and F2997) from the downstream Y2619 level (currently encompassing about 20 of roughly equivalent SNPs that are common to all Ashkenazi Levites but are most likely absent in most non-AL members of CTS6/M582).

Unfortunately, the Middle Eastern cases of M582+ that have been reported by Rootsi et al. were not tested for CTS6 (or for any other SNPs from that very level), so we don’t really know whether they were CTS6+ or CTS6-, and it is of course possible that some of them were M582+ CTS6- (if CTS6 is downstream of M582). However, as long as their relative position in the phylogenetic tree is not established, we need to treat these two SNPs as being roughly equivalent.

For more details on this subject, please see the recently updated tree on the”Levite DNA” site:
https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/y-dna-analysis/snp-tree-for-r1a1a-ashkenazi-levites



I must have been out-of-the-loop for the past several months, but supposedly M582 has its highest diversity within R1a Iranians. Which would mean that these Iranians also carry F1345???
Yes, this is correct.



Who are these people, and why haven't I heard of them before, and where I can I see a table or chart showing the data?
Please see the paper of Rootsi et al. discussed in this thread (including the supplementary materials). The above post by MfA provides a nice summary.

The most likely reason why we haven’t heard about those Middle Eastern cases of M582/CTS6 is because most of them are from the regions that are heavily underrepresented among the FTDNA customers. We also need to keep in mind that this clade is very rare even among the Kurds and Iranians.



You also indicate that the map posted (which is from Semargl's site) does not show the true distribution of F1345. I would like to see a map showing the actual distribution.
This would require having some large samples from different regions of Eurasia being tested for F1345, which, to my knowledge, hasn’t been done so far.



According to you calculation, how old is the R1a Levite clade?
About 1600 years old.



If F1345 is 4500 years old, then that makes Z2122 even older, and L342 even older than that, and Z93 very very old, relatively speaking.
It has been always suspected that both Z93 and Z94/L342.2 are probably older than 5000 years, so the new SNP-based estimates do not change anything in this respect.



So are the previous calculations on the age of R1a towards the base of the tree wrong?
No, most of those new estimates are more or less consistent with the previously known STR-based estimates.



That means R1a and R1b diverged even further back in time than previously thought?
In this particular case, it seems indeed that these two lineages diverged a couple of thousand years earlier than previously suspected (i.e. about 25-27 kya instead of 18-22 kya).

parasar
07-14-2014, 03:32 PM
Shaul Stampfer, “Did the Khazars Convert to Judaism?,” Jewish Social Studies: His- tory, Culture, Society n.s. 19, no. 3 (Spring/Summer 2013): 1–72


The view that some or all of the Khazars, a central Asian people, converted to Judaism at some point during the ninth or tenth century is widely accepted. A careful ex- amination of the sources, however, shows that some of them are pseudepigraphic, and the rest are of questionable reliability. Many of the most reliable contemporary texts that mention Khazars say nothing about their conversion, nor is there any archaeological evidence for it. This leads to the conclusion that such a conversion never took place.

From the paper on Ibn Fadlan quoted in a prior entry:

Another relevant document on the Khazars’ conversion is found in the travelogue of Ahmad ibn Fadlan, who set off in 921 on a journey that brought him to the kingdom of the Bulgars, near Khazaria.112 His lively description of the Khazars is therefore based on informants and possibly on literary sources but not on firsthand knowledge.113 We do not have the complete text of ibn Fadlan’s travel report but only a large fragment, found in 1923 in Meshed (Iran), that ends in the middle of the description of the Khazars and lacks any reference to their Jewish- ness. However, a long citation of ibn Fadlan by Yaqut ibn ‘And Allahl-Hamawi (1179–1229), who wrote long after the Khazar state had ceased to exist, contains the laconic comment that “the Khazars and their king are all Jews.”114 This same long quotation notes, “and the king has nine judges of Jews, Christians, Muslims, and idol worship- pers. If a legal case arises for some people these [judges] adjudicate it.”115 This might have been written by ibn Fadlan, or it might have been added by Yaqut or by the copyist of ibn Fadlan whom he relied on.116

According to ibn Fadlan, the Khazar kings each had 25 wives and 60 concubines. In addition, if a king ruled for 40 years, he was put to death on the grounds that after so many years he would be confused and no longer sharp witted. Ibn Fadlan also reported that when a Khazar king died, his body was buried in a special house that was then flooded by a river; the individuals involved in the burial were killed so that the exact location of the burial could never be discov- ered. Almost all of this is in clear violation of Jewish law,117 and it also seems rather fantastic.118 Ibn Fadlan also makes no reference to ob- servance of any Jewish rituals, even though Sabbath observance and other rituals might be expected to have aroused some attention.119

Ibn Fadlan’s fascination with the bizarre, his lack of a critical sense with regard to stories he was told, and his lack of explanation for the conversion to Judaism weaken the claim that he can be regarded as a reliable source for Khazar conversion to Judaism. It would be simpler to claim that he relied uncritically on either an earlier source or a traveler for his story.13]

So are we to believe someone writing in 2013 and not someone writing at the same time as the Khazar existed. The reason for Fadlan's embassy to the Saqaliba was to protect them from the Jews (ie the Khazar). While I agree that the observances listed are not Judaic, they are not "fantastic" but quite in line with those reported for Asiatic tribes - Kurgan burial and river ceremony, numerous wives and concubines, execution of the elderly, etc. - and we know traditions die hard. The caste system has survived in Islamic and Christian converts in India many hundred of years after conversion.

Plus Fadlan's testimony is also confirmed by the following:

QUOTES ABOUT KHAZAR JUDAISM...
Christian of Stavelot, in Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam (864):
"At the present time we know of no nation under the heavens where Christians do not live. For [Christians are even found] in the lands of Gog and Magog -- who are a Hunnic race and are called Gazari (Khazars)... circumcized and observing all [the laws of] Judaism. The Bulgars, however, who are of the same seven tribes [as the Khazars], are now becoming baptized [into Christianity]."

...

Ibn al-Faqih (c. 930):
"All of the Khazars are Jews. But they have been Judaized recently."

Khazar King Joseph, in his Reply to Hasdai ibn-Shaprut (c. 955):
"After those days there arose from the sons of Bulan's sons a king, Obadiah by name. He was an upright and just man. He reorganized the kingdom and established the Jewish religion properly and correctly. He built synagogues and schools, brought in many Israelite sages, honored them with silver and gold, and they explained to him the 24 Books of the Bible, Mishnah, Talmud, and the order of prayers established by the Khazzans. He was a man who feared God and loved the law and the commandments."

Abd al-Jabbar ibn Muhammad al-Hamdani, in The Establishment of Proofs for the Prophethood of Our Master Muhammad (c. 1009-1010):

"One of the Jews undertook the conversion of the Khazars, who are composed of many peoples, and they were converted by him and joined his religion. This happened recently in the days of the Abbasids.... For this was a man who came single-handedly to a king of great rank and to a very spirited people, and they were converted by him without any recourse to violence and the sword. And they took upon themselves the difficult obligations enjoined by the law of the Torah, such as circumcision, the ritual ablutions, washing after a discharge of the semen, the prohibition of work on the Sabbath and during the feasts, the prohibition of eating the flesh of forbidden animals according to this religion, and so on."

Abraham ibn Daud of Toledo, Spain, in The Book of Tradition (1161):
"You will find the communities of Israel spread abroad... as far as Dailam and the river Itil where live Khazar peoples who became proselytes. The Khazar king Joseph sent a letter to Hasdai ibn-Shaprut and informed him that he and all his people followed the rabbinical faith. We have seen descendants of the Khazars in Toledo, students of the wise, and they have told us that the remnant of them is of the rabbinical belief."
Dimashqi (1327):

"Ibn-al-Athir tells how in the days of Harun, the emperor of Byzantium forced the Jews to emigrate. They came to the Khazar country, where they found an intelligent but untutored race and offered them their religion. The inhabitants found it better than their own and accepted it."
Here is a list of Jewish sources that preserve knowledge of the Khazars' conversion to Judaism:

Elchanan the Merchant a.k.a. Eldad the Danite - 9th century
Anonymous author of the Schechter Letter - 10th century
Hasdai ibn Shaprut - 10th century
King Joseph of the Khazars - 10th century
....
Here is an excerpt from Hasdai ibn Shaprut's letter to King Joseph:
"We live in the Diaspora and there is no power in our hands. They say to us everyday, 'Every nation has a kingdom, but you have no memory of such in all the land.' But when we heard about my master the [Khazar] King, the might of his monarchy, and his mighty army, we were amazed. We lifted our heads, our spirits returned, our hands were strengthened, and my master's kingdom was our response in defense. Were it that this news would gain added strength, for through it we will be elevated further." (translation by Rabbi N. Daniel Korobkin)
...

http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-quotes.html

Kagan, Bek, Kosar, Atell, Sorkel, etc. - all of these names support if not confirm a Khazar connection.

Mamluk
07-14-2014, 11:07 PM
Well, this took me a while to digest, as I apparently had a mental block on the subject! But there are still so many mysteries that are left unsolved.
-------------------
What did happen to the Khazars? Where are they now? Does the Q haplogroup come into play here?

I'm trying to sort out the issue with R1a-L342 and J1c3d among Jews and Arabs.
- R1a-L342 is present in Ashkenazi Levites (descended from Levi, grandson of Isaac), and in the Banu Shaiba of Quraysh (descended from Ishmael, mentioned in the Qur'an as divinely appointed to guard the keys to the Ka'aba until the Day of Judgment). The Levites carry Z2122, the Quraysh carry Z2123.
-J1c3d is present in Cohanim (descended from Levi, through Aaron), and in most Arabs with tribal origins.
Some (hypothetical) issues floating around in my mind right now:

One scenario is that during the Babylonian Captivity that some local Persian R1a-M582 converts were admitted to the Levite caste, and they returned to Jerusalem with the exiled Jews when Cyrus the Great released them. And from there their descendants, along with the rest of the J1c3d Jews, were subjected to the Roman Diaspora. But converts to Judaism aren't generally acceptable, from what I understand, unless this was some sort of agreement between the Jews and Cyrus.

It is related that Abraham came from Ur, or the area around it, which we know is at the north of the Persian Gulf. It could very well be that Abraham was R1a-Z93-L342, and ultimately of Indo-Iranian origin. Ishmael's lineage eventually would give rise to R1a-Z2123-L657, as is evidenced with the Banu Shaiba, and some peninsular tribes, and there could have been gene flow into central and south Asia. The Jewish Dayan family of Aleppo (R1a-Z2123) have what appears to be a well-maintained family tree detailing their direct descent from King David. One would then extrapolate that to conclude that Jesus Christ's mother, Mary, came from a family which was R1a-Z2123! And in the lineage of Isaac occurred the Z2122-Z2123 split (?). If this scenario is to be considered, then how is it that the Cohanim are J1c3d?

-----------
R1a men sure knew how to move around a lot! Following their exhausting genetic footsteps keeps us circumambulating around the Caucasus and Caspian.

Humanist
07-14-2014, 11:21 PM
One scenario is that during the Babylonian Captivity that some local Persian R1a-M582 converts were admitted to the Levite caste, and they returned to Jerusalem with the exiled Jews when Cyrus the Great released them.

They were not necessarily in bondage at that point. By that time, many had become successful "Babylonians," with some even owning slaves of their own. There is nothing to suggest that they had not been free to return before that time, save for what is contained in the Judeo-Christian literature, and the accounts of Cyrus himself.

Wikipedia


Around the 6th century BCE, the Neo-Babylonian Empire conquered the ancient Kingdom of Judah, destroying much of Jerusalem and exiling its population far to the East in Babylon. During the Babylonian captivity, many Israelites were enslaved within the Babylonian Empire and learned the closely related Semitic language of their captors, Aramaic. The Babylonians had taken mainly the governing classes of Israel while leaving behind presumably more-compliant farmers and laborers to work the land.[citation needed] Thus for a significant period, the Jewish elite became influenced by Aramaic.[18]


Compare with some recent scholarly work on the subject:

Slavery between Judah and Babylon: The Exilic Experience (https://www.academia.edu/1221599/Slavery_between_Judah_and_Babylon_The_Exilic_Exper ience)

F. RACHEL MAGDALENE, UNIVERSITÄT LEIPZIG; AND CORNELIA WUNSCH, UNIVERSITY OF LONDON

In: L. Culbertson (ed.), Slaves and Household in the Near East (Oriental Institute Seminars, vol. 7) Chicago, Illinois: The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago 2011, pp. 113–134."


[T]he [Judean] exiles in rural Babylonia seem to possess none of the normal attributes of those in chattel slavery. From our brief study of these texts, we have learned that these Judeans were treated much like Babylonians and other non-Judean deported communities. They were given land with the same expectation of taxes and service as common Babylonians. Many integrated well into Neo-Babylonian society, and some were able to prosper in rural Babylonia, becoming affluent farmers, businessmen, and local officials, who might own their own chattel slaves of diverse ethnic backgrounds. All, in fact, were assigned a status that afforded them protection from being sold into chattel slavery. In sum, they apparently used the social, economic, legal, and political systems in place to advance themselves in the situation in which they found themselves. Over four generations, these Judeans became much like those Babylonians who were not from the most privileged urban families.

AJL
07-14-2014, 11:35 PM
What did happen to the Khazars? Where are they now? Does the Q haplogroup come into play here?


Good question. I don't believe without testing of ancient remains we're likely to have definitive answers.



One scenario is that during the Babylonian Captivity that some local Persian R1a-M582 converts were admitted to the Levite caste, and they returned to Jerusalem with the exiled Jews when Cyrus the Great released them.

Quite possible. This is fairly similar to both Michał's theory of Nethinim, and the Adiabene hypothesis. While conversion is not common now, it probably was at other points in history, more so by femalesm, for a couple of obvious reasons.



It is related that Abraham came from Ur, or the area around it, which we know is at the north of the Persian Gulf. It could very well be that Abraham was R1a-Z93-L342, and ultimately of Indo-Iranian origin.


If there was such a historical personage as Abraham, it is possible. But I am not sure we have any evidence for his existence, and I think there remains some debate over whether Abraham's Ur was the Chaldean city or Şanlıurfa, Turkey.



The Jewish Dayan family of Aleppo (R1a-Z2123) have what appears to be a well-maintained family tree detailing their direct descent from King David.


Again, while we have evidence of a dynasty called the House of David, we do not yet have proof of a King David. "David" may have been a family/tribal name. Multiple haplogroups claim Davidic descent, so many that I am skeptical of all claims.



R1a men sure knew how to move around a lot!

That's for sure! But probably not as much as our cousins in Q, who stretched across Eurasia and the Americas well before Columbus.

Goldschlager
07-14-2014, 11:37 PM
Each and every "contemporary" quote re - Khazar's conversion are refuted in Stampfer analysis. Below is the relevant quote Re the Joseph's letter to Hasdai:

The most promising sources of information regarding the Jewishness of the Khazars in general and their conversion in particular are two, or arguably three, Hebrew texts. The first is what appears to be an exchange of letters between the Spanish Jewish leader Hasdai ibn Shaprut (915–c. 975) and Joseph, king of the Khazars. The correspondence opens with a letter written by Hasdai expressing interest in the history of the Khazars and the nature of their Judaism. A letter from a Spanish Jew is no proof of the Khazars’ conversion, but it could be seen as proof that the author, who was well informed but lived thousands of miles away from the Khazar lands, thought that the Khazars had converted. However, the second letter, the reply of the Khazar king, might prove important for our purposes.

The Khazar ruler’s letter, which includes a detailed history of the Khazars and their conversion, has been preserved in two versions that agree on the main points. Joseph refers to himself as “king of the Turks” and describes how many generations previously, Bulan, one of the first Khazar kings, was visited in his dreams by an angel who led him and later his vizier to recognize the true God.62 In time, Bulan organized a religious disputation between Christians, Muslims, and Jews in order to determine which was the true religion. When the debate reached a stalemate, Bulan turned to both the Christians and the Muslims and asked them to compare the other religions. Both were naïve enough to fall into the trap and agreed that Judaism was the truer of the alternatives, upon which the king and his people promptly accepted Judaism.63 Bulan imported Jewish scholars, who taught him and his people the Torah and the commandments. He was succeeded by his grandson Ovadia, who built synagogues and study houses and gathered many scholars to teach him Torah and Talmud.

The authenticity of the letter has long been debated.64 It is certainly old, as it was already cited within a century of Hasdai ibn Shaprut’s lifetime. A well-known Spanish talmudic scholar named Judah of Barcelona (late eleventh–early twelfth centuries) mentioned the letter but added that he had doubts about the authenticity of the conversion story. Unfortunately, Judah did not spell out the reasons for his uncertainty, but it is unlikely he would have mentioned having doubts without good reasons.65 Thus his reference to the letter does not provide strong support for its authenticity, but neither is it proof that the letter is not genuine.

The timing of the Khazar conversion according to Joseph’s letter is not clear. In one version of the letter, the conversion is dated to 340 years before the letter was written, and at the time of the conversion, the Khazars already ruled over a kingdom. The other version does not specify a specific date but also describes it as far in the past. As the Khazar kingdom was overrun by 970, the latest possible date for the conversion would have been 630. However, we know from other sources that the Khazar kingdom was founded only in the middle of the seventh century.66 Moreover, as we shall see below, reliable sources (Sallam the Interpreter and Cyril and Methodius) suggest that in the seventh century and later the Khazar leadership was not Jewish, nor was the nation, although Joseph’s letter describes mass conversion as early as the seventh century.

The letter mentions that over the course of time, the Khazar kings built synagogues and study halls and gathered many Jewish scholars, giving them great wealth; the scholars expounded the Bible, Mishnah, Talmud, and more. However, none of the scholars are named, no other sources refer to grand synagogues or Jewish study halls, and no archae- ological remains of Khazar synagogues have been found. In all of the rich literature produced in that time in the yeshivot of Jerusalem or Babylonia67 or preserved in the Cairo Geniza, there is not one reference to scholars in the Khazar lands, nor are there references to migration of scholars to Khazaria. There is also no realistic description in the letter of how Jewish law was observed by the Khazar converts, though this would have been no small challenge for a rather warlike nation. Perhaps the author was exaggerating or embellishing the facts, but to admit as much is simply another way of saying that the story, as recounted in the letter, could not have taken place.

There are also good reasons to doubt that the letter was actually written by a Khazar. A native Khazar would have thought in the Khazar language (likely a Turkic language),68 and what he wrote, in any language, would reflect his mother tongue. However, the letter is written in a beautiful literary Hebrew.69 Abraham N. Poliak and others have also noted that there are Arabisms scattered through the text.70 The king could have hired a native Arabic speaker with a profound knowledge of Hebrew as his Hebrew secretary. But if such masters of Hebrew prose lived in Khazaria, it is all the odder that no other Khazar literary work besides this letter was preserved and that no references to Jewish scholarship in Khazaria exist.

The geographical descriptions in the letter are even more problematic. A king should be familiar with the geography of his kingdom. However, Joseph’s letter does not display this kind of knowledge. The borders of the Khazar state described in the letter define an area far larger than the known borders of the empire in the lifetime of Hasdai. This led A. P. Novoseltsev to attempt to reconcile text and reality by stating that the author was describing the borders as they were a century or two before he wrote the letter, in order to impress Hasdai ibn Shaprut.71 This is possible but feels forced.

Poliak noted72 that although Joseph showed great familiarity with much of his empire, he seemed to know remarkably little about its eastern part, about the national groups that populated that area, or about trade routes and commercial ties with Khorazem (now Khiva). This is surprising, as trade with Khorazem was an important element of the Khazar economy. Poliak also observed that the geographical information in the letter is similar to the knowledge that a traveler coming from Constantinople to the Southern coast of Crimea could have obtained.73 Moreover, there are also problems with the letter’s references to Crimea.74 Shapira points out that the letter pays disproportionate attention to Crimean geography, raising the possibility that its author was from Crimea.75 In two detailed studies, Elena Galkina found additional problems with the letter’s geographical accuracy.76 Finally, the letter does not mention the main cities of the Khazar kingdom by name, something we would have expected of a king who was providing a description of his land.77

The letter’s description of Khazar economic life is no less problematic. The Khazars were nomads who, though they may have partially adapted to agriculture and sedentary life, were often on the move with their flocks. As one later visitor to the region described it, “Al-Khazar is an extensive district, . . . a wretched, depressing place. It abounds in grazing animals, honey and Jews.”78 However, the letter describes ad- [10] vanced Khazar agriculture—rich fields, vineyards, orchards—even though this was not in fact typical of the region. There is no mention of livestock. No less serious is the absence of reference to the important trade routes that went through Khazaria. Whittow notes, “In the ninth and tenth centuries the Arab geographers describe a state which has become essentially a commercial empire,” but there is not a word about this in the letter, and there is no reason to think that Hasdai would have been uninterested in learning about trade.79 Finally, the letter describes an urbanized kingdom of “villages, towns and fortress cities,” though the archaeologist Valerii Flerov summarized his findings thus: “There were no cities in the Khazar qaghanate [kingdom].”80 Difficulties also plague the letter’s historical descriptions of the wars between the Arabs and Khazars.81

The problems with Joseph’s letter—incongruous language, geographical and historical inaccuracies, and economic misconceptions— leave little alternative but to regard it as written neither by a Khazar king, nor by a member of his court, nor, for that matter, by anyone in Khazaria.82 If the letter did not originate in Khazaria, it does not offer any proof that the Khazars converted.83 I leave it to others to determine who wrote it and why and whether it is a fiction or a forgery.84

The creative production of historical sources is an old tradition in many European societies,85 and the well-known Donation of Constantine (Donatio Constantini) is only one case of a text that was once widely accepted as genuine and later turned out to be anything but.86 Medieval Jews did not differ from their neighbors in the production of such texts. In the course of the Maimonidean controversy in thirteenth-century Spain, one partisan forged a last will of Maimonides.87 Another author “supplied” a letter of a famous Babylonian scholar, Hai Gaon.88 The classic description in Abraham ibn Daud’s Sefer ha- kabalah (The Book of Tradition) of how the study of Torah spread in the western Mediterranean is another Spanish invention.89 One of the most important medieval histories, Yosippon, is attributed to Josephus but was probably written in Italy in the tenth century. Both the Zohar and Sefer Yetsirah (The Book of Creation) are pseudepigraphic and seem to be products of Spain, though their dates of composition are not certain. A pseudepigraphic Arabic text written in Spain by a Muslim at the time of Hasdai ibn Shaprut is quite similar to the correspondence attributed to him in its concern with buttressing identity.90 In this context, a pseudepigraphic letter written by Arabic speaking Jews in Spain and ascribed to the king of the Khazars would not have been exceptional, especially given the power of the Khazar conversion story in the context of religious polemic, acting as proof that the biblical prophecy of a continuous Judahite kingship was [11] being fulfilled.

Mamluk
07-14-2014, 11:48 PM
That's for sure! But probably not as much as our cousins in Q, who stretched across Eurasia and the Americas well before Columbus.

At least Q kept going in approximately one direction. R1a is like a ball in a pinball machine.

AJL
07-15-2014, 12:06 AM
At least Q kept going in approximately one direction. R1a is like a ball in a pinball machine.

Mainly so though Q also got to Scandinavia and France... It reminds me a bit of the distribution of mtDNA X, something that is truly Eurasiamerican.

Mehrdad
07-15-2014, 12:09 AM
At least Q kept going in approximately one direction. R1a is like a ball in a pinball machine.

haha good point, perhaps its in our genes :)

Mamluk
07-15-2014, 12:17 AM
haha good point, perhaps its in our genes :)

Not surprising! My father, brother and I each can't seem to stay in one place very long, even if we tried. And we're constantly getting bitten by the travel bug.

Mamluk
07-15-2014, 05:03 PM
Since M582 has its greatest diversity in Iran, if we look upstream, skipping F1345 (because of few samples), to Z2122, where does Z2122 reach its greatest diversity and concentration?
I understand that its brother subclade Z2123 is high in South Asia and the Persian Gulf.

parasar
07-15-2014, 06:45 PM
Each and every "contemporary" quote re - Khazar's conversion are refuted in Stampfer analysis ... .

What is his opinion on Arabs, especially Masudi, since as far I can discern Masudi is very reliable?

"... so that I might build a fortress which would protect me from the Jews who have enslaved me ...
Risala, Aḥmad Ibn Faḍlān, Richard Nelson Frye

"the khaqanate is not conferred on any but a Jew"
al-Iṣṭakhri

".. embraced the tenet of the Jews ... "
Kitab Muruj Al-dahab Al-Masudi. By 'Abu-l-Hasan 'Ali ibn al-Husain al-Masudi, Alois Sprenge
pg 407 http://books.google.com/books?id=C8NVAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover

With number of battles the Arabs fought against the Khazars, it is highly doubtful that their top historians all made this major an error. After all we rely on these very same writers for the bulk of the history of the period, whether it is the remote Rus or far-flung east Indies.

parasar
07-15-2014, 08:39 PM
Since M582 has its greatest diversity in Iran, if we look upstream, skipping F1345 (because of few samples), to Z2122, where does Z2122 reach its greatest diversity and concentration?
I understand that its brother subclade Z2123 is high in South Asia and the Persian Gulf.

Diversity
R-M582 Near/Middle East 13 0.974
R-M582 Jews 22 0.844
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg201450x5.xls

As far as its distribution in Iran is concerned, in the Underhill Iranian data set South Iran has 0/408 and NE Iran 0/127. South Asia, Central Asia, Siberia, Arab areas, and the Caucasus (except one Nogay) draw a blank.

East/Central Europe Austrian M582 16 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
East/Central Europe Austrian M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 25 12
East/Central Europe Hungarian M582 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
East/Central Europe Slovak M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 11
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 15 23 11
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 15 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 18 24 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 15 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 17 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 12 20 14 15 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 16 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 17 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 15 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 13 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 14 15 23 13
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Jews Ashkenazi, Levite M582 16 12 13 16 26 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 23 12
Near/Middle East Gilan, Iran M582 15 12 13 18 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 15 14 11 20 15 18 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 16 12 14 17 25 10 11 12 12 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 14 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 15 12 13 16 25 11 11 14 10 10 10 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 12
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 15 12 13 16 25 11 11 14 10 10 10 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 12
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 16 12 14 17 25 10 11 13 12 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 14 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 15 12 13 16 25 11 11 13 10 10 10 14 14 11 20 15 15 23 11
Near/Middle East Iranian Azeri M582 16 12 14 18 26 10 11 13 13 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 14 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Kerman M582 16 12 14 17 25 10 11 13 12 10 11 13 14 11 20 16 14 23 13
Near/Middle East Iranian Kerman M582 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 10 11 13 14 11 20 16 14 23 12
Near/Middle East Iranian Kerman M582 16 12 13 17 25 11 11 13 10 11 11 14 14 11 20 16 14 23 12
Near/Middle East Kurd M582 16 12 14 17 25 10 11 13 12 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 14 23 13
Near/Middle East Kurd, Cilicia M582 16 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 12 10 11 15 14 11 20 16 15 23 13
Near/Middle East Kurd, Cilicia M582 16 12 14 17 25 10 11 13 12 10 11 14 14 11 20 16 15 23 13
West/North Europe German_West M582 17 12 13 17 25 10 11 13 10 10 11 14 14 11 20 14 14 25 12


So it is the 6 Azeris who are contributing towards ~half the total (13 M582) in the Near/Middle East. The presence of varied types in the Iranian Azeri Turks was the most striking part I found in the Underhill paper.
In fact if you look at Table S5, they have sufficient samples in other categories too to enable age calculations.
Z93 Iranian Azeris 5/12
Z2125 Iranian Azeris 7/38
M780 Iranian Azeris 6/18 (this is L657 eq.)
M582 Iranian Azeris 5/13
Z282 Iranian Azeris 5/12

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_x7xNgfhbbWo/S9r3DMsFJ6I/AAAAAAAAAaw/zBDyNDLuag0/s320/Azeri4.jpg

Goldschlager
07-15-2014, 09:35 PM
Stempfer on Al-Masudi:
One of the most cited sources on the Jewishness of the Khazars is al-Mas’udi (b. Baghdad 896, d. Cairo 956), a well-respected writer who was apparently interested in Jews and who wrote a detailed description of the Khazars in his book Muruj adh-dhahab wa ma’adin al- jawhar (The Meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems).144 His writing is realistic, leading Novoseltsev to consider al-Mas’udi’s report to be the only source on the Khazars “worthy of belief.”145 However, Paul Wheatley wrote of him, “Al-Mas’udi was generally content to accept the testimony of secondary, somewhat dubious, sources at their face value. Only seldom did he investigate primary sources.”146 Therefore, he should be read carefully.

Al-Mas’udi wrote the following description of Itil, the Khazar capital:

In this town are many Moslims and Christians, Jews and Pagans. The king [and] his suite . . . embraced the tenets of the Jews, in the reign of ar-Rashid. To this king flock the Jews from all the Moslim districts, and from the Byzantine Empire; for the emperor forced the Jews of his do- minions to turn Christians, and loaded the converts with favours. The present Byzantine emperor is Armanus.147

Although the description of the Khazars continues for a few pages, only this passage mentions their Jewishness, but no other details about it are offered. In the continuation, al-Mas’udi, following al- Istakhri, states that “the majority of the population of this country are Muslims,” that the standing army is made up of Muslims, that the vizier is also a Muslim, and that complex legal decisions are ultimately [20] decided by Muslim law. He does not explain why the Muslim majority was willing to tolerate a Jewish ruler or why the Jewish ruler accepted a secondary role in the legal system.

The best way to assess al-Mas’udi’s description of the Khazars’ Jewishness is to examine three of his statements related to the Khazar conversion that can be tested against outside sources—one on the status of Muslims in the Khazar state, another on persecutions of Jews in Byzantium, and the third on the date of the Khazar conversion.

Al-Mas’udi’s first statement, on the status of Muslims in Khazaria, reads as follows:

[T]here are many Muslims in this kingdom; . . . they are artisans, trades- people, and merchants, who have been attracted by the justice and security (of persons and property) afforded by the government. They have a great public mosque the Minaret of which rises above the royal palace; and several private mosques where children are instructed in reading the Koran. If the Muslims and Christians, who are there, agree, the king has no power over them.148

This statement presents three problems. First, the report about a massive mosque and a multiplicity of Islamic schools is not corroborated by the reports of other Muslim authors. There are references to a mosque, but not one of such great dimensions, and they make no mention of instruction in private mosques. Second, the inability of the Khazar king to overrule Muslim decisions is not documented elsewhere and is probably not typical for rulers in the region.149 These issues alone would merit attention, but there is a third and greater problem: this description appears to contradict another one. Al- Baladhuri (d. 892) wrote in his Kitab futuh al-buldan (Book of the Conquests of Lands) the following comment about the city Shamkur (now in Azerbaijan):

In the year 240 the city was rebuilt by Bugha, the freedman of al- Mu’tasim and the governor of Armenia, Adharbaijan and Shimshat. He settled in it people from al-Khazar who, because of their interest in Islam came, and sought security. He also transplanted merchants to it from Bardha’ah and called it al-Mutawakkiliyah.150

The presence of Muslim refugees from Khazaria seeking security in Shamkur does not fit with a description of thriving Muslim life in Itil and a political framework in which Muslims held power. On the contrary, it suggests that al-Mas’udi’s description is exaggerated and inaccurate. Nevertheless, as al-Baladhuri lived about half a century before al- Mas’udi, it is possible, though not likely, that Islam flourished in Khaz- [21] aria only after al-Baladhuri’s death and that this new situation was what al-Mas’udi was reporting, though al-Mas’udi does not refer to recent improvements in the condition of the Muslim population.

The second statement concerns the persecution of Jews in Byzantium. Al-Mas’udi, who was generally well informed about what went on in Byzantium,151 wrote regarding the emperor Romanus Lecapenus (d. 948), “The emperor forced the Jews of his dominions to turn Christians, and loaded the converts with favours. . . . Under these cir- cumstances, many Jews took flight from the Byzantine empire into the country of the Khazar.”152

We might expect that such dramatic events would have been mentioned in other contemporary sources,153 but oddly enough, this is the only source regarding the persecution and the forced conversion of the Jews by Romanus Lecapenus. Moreover, when Romanus wrote to the Khazar ruler, he did not use hostile language but instead employed a diplomatic tone:

To the Khaghan [chaganos] of Khazaria. A three-solidus gold bull. “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, our one and sole true God. Constantine and Romanos, Emperors of the Romans, faithful to God, to [name] the most noble [eugenestatos], most re- nowned [periphanestatos] Khaghan of Khazaria.”154

This suggests that Byzantine ties with the Khazars were normal and correct ties—not at all what one would expect from al-Mas’udi’s description.

The Vision of Daniel, a Byzantine Jewish source from this period,155 contains a portion that reads, “And in his days the lowly people will dwell in tranquility. And afterwards there will arise a king who will persecute them by driving out and not by destruction but mercifully. He will set his face against God but he will not succeed.”156 Driving out qualifies for admission into the category of persecution, but it is not forced conversion. Nor does the term merciful fit al-Mas’udi’s picture. In any case, it is clear that there were Jewish communities in Byzantium after the reign of Romanus, so unless there was mass Jewish migration to Byzantium after the death of Romanus or reversion of converted Jews to Judaism—both unlikely—it is necessary to conclude that the Jews of Byzantium were never forced to convert.157 As Robert Bonfil recently wrote in a discussion of Byzantine Jewry, “There is no need to assume that Romanus issued a formal decree of compulsory conversion, of which no evidence whatsoever has survived, beyond hearsay reports of [22] foreign provenience.”158

An eleventh-century text supports the view that there were no extreme persecutions of the Jews in the time of Romanus Lecapenus. The Nestorian metropolitan Elias of Nisibis compared the Byzantines to the Muslims in his book Demonstration of the Correctness of the Faith, written before 1046. He was critical of the Byzantines, who, according to him, deny Nestorians the right to build churches yet tolerate numerous Jews, offer them protection, and allow public worship and the construction of synagogues, even though the Jews say terrible things about Christianity.159 His argument would have been substantially weakened had the Jews been persecuted within the last century, as his readers were well acquainted with Byzantine realities; it is difficult to imagine that he would have taken this risk. It is simpler to assume that no such persecu- tions took place and that Elias of Nisibis had good grounds for his claim.

As for the third statement, on the date of the Khazar conversion, al-Mas’udi explicitly dates this event to the reign of ar-Rashid, who died in 809. The conversion, according to al-Mas’udi, would therefore have taken place between about 790 and 809, a date that contradicts the picture of the situation in Khazaria derived from sources related to the mission of Cyril and Methodius. It also does not fit with a reliable contemporary Muslim source that refers to the Khazars, that of ibn Khordadbeh. The examination of these statements reveals that al-Mas’udi presents problematic information in all three cases. This does not prove that everything he said was false, but it does show that he was far from an ideal or reliable source.

parasar
07-16-2014, 06:49 PM
Stempfer on Al-Masudi:
One of the most cited sources on the Jewishness of the Khazars is al-Mas’udi (b. Baghdad 896, d. Cairo 956), a well-respected writer who was apparently interested in Jews and who wrote a detailed description of the Khazars in his book Muruj adh-dhahab wa ma’adin al- jawhar (The Meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems).144 His writing is realistic, leading Novoseltsev to consider al-Mas’udi’s report to be the only source on the Khazars “worthy of belief.”145 However, Paul Wheatley wrote of him, “Al-Mas’udi was generally content to accept the testimony of secondary, somewhat dubious, sources at their face value. Only seldom did he investigate primary sources.”146 Therefore, he should be read carefully.

Al-Mas’udi wrote the following description of Itil, the Khazar capital:

In this town are many Moslims and Christians, Jews and Pagans. The king [and] his suite . . . embraced the tenets of the Jews, in the reign of ar-Rashid. To this king flock the Jews from all the Moslim districts, and from the Byzantine Empire; for the emperor forced the Jews of his do- minions to turn Christians, and loaded the converts with favours. The present Byzantine emperor is Armanus.147

Although the description of the Khazars continues for a few pages, only this passage mentions their Jewishness, but no other details about it are offered. In the continuation, al-Mas’udi, following al- Istakhri, states that “the majority of the population of this country are Muslims,” that the standing army is made up of Muslims, that the vizier is also a Muslim, and that complex legal decisions are ultimately [20] decided by Muslim law. He does not explain why the Muslim majority was willing to tolerate a Jewish ruler or why the Jewish ruler accepted a secondary role in the legal system.

The best way to assess al-Mas’udi’s description of the Khazars’ Jewishness is to examine three of his statements related to the Khazar conversion that can be tested against outside sources—one on the status of Muslims in the Khazar state, another on persecutions of Jews in Byzantium, and the third on the date of the Khazar conversion.

Al-Mas’udi’s first statement, on the status of Muslims in Khazaria, reads as follows:

[T]here are many Muslims in this kingdom; . . . they are artisans, trades- people, and merchants, who have been attracted by the justice and security (of persons and property) afforded by the government. They have a great public mosque the Minaret of which rises above the royal palace; and several private mosques where children are instructed in reading the Koran. If the Muslims and Christians, who are there, agree, the king has no power over them.148

This statement presents three problems. First, the report about a massive mosque and a multiplicity of Islamic schools is not corroborated by the reports of other Muslim authors. There are references to a mosque, but not one of such great dimensions, and they make no mention of instruction in private mosques. Second, the inability of the Khazar king to overrule Muslim decisions is not documented elsewhere and is probably not typical for rulers in the region.149 These issues alone would merit attention, but there is a third and greater problem: this description appears to contradict another one. Al- Baladhuri (d. 892) wrote in his Kitab futuh al-buldan (Book of the Conquests of Lands) the following comment about the city Shamkur (now in Azerbaijan):

In the year 240 the city was rebuilt by Bugha, the freedman of al- Mu’tasim and the governor of Armenia, Adharbaijan and Shimshat. He settled in it people from al-Khazar who, because of their interest in Islam came, and sought security. He also transplanted merchants to it from Bardha’ah and called it al-Mutawakkiliyah.150

The presence of Muslim refugees from Khazaria seeking security in Shamkur does not fit with a description of thriving Muslim life in Itil and a political framework in which Muslims held power. On the contrary, it suggests that al-Mas’udi’s description is exaggerated and inaccurate. Nevertheless, as al-Baladhuri lived about half a century before al- Mas’udi, it is possible, though not likely, that Islam flourished in Khaz- [21] aria only after al-Baladhuri’s death and that this new situation was what al-Mas’udi was reporting, though al-Mas’udi does not refer to recent improvements in the condition of the Muslim population.

The second statement concerns the persecution of Jews in Byzantium. Al-Mas’udi, who was generally well informed about what went on in Byzantium,151 wrote regarding the emperor Romanus Lecapenus (d. 948), “The emperor forced the Jews of his dominions to turn Christians, and loaded the converts with favours. . . . Under these cir- cumstances, many Jews took flight from the Byzantine empire into the country of the Khazar.”152

We might expect that such dramatic events would have been mentioned in other contemporary sources,153 but oddly enough, this is the only source regarding the persecution and the forced conversion of the Jews by Romanus Lecapenus. Moreover, when Romanus wrote to the Khazar ruler, he did not use hostile language but instead employed a diplomatic tone:

To the Khaghan [chaganos] of Khazaria. A three-solidus gold bull. “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, our one and sole true God. Constantine and Romanos, Emperors of the Romans, faithful to God, to [name] the most noble [eugenestatos], most re- nowned [periphanestatos] Khaghan of Khazaria.”154

This suggests that Byzantine ties with the Khazars were normal and correct ties—not at all what one would expect from al-Mas’udi’s description.

The Vision of Daniel, a Byzantine Jewish source from this period,155 contains a portion that reads, “And in his days the lowly people will dwell in tranquility. And afterwards there will arise a king who will persecute them by driving out and not by destruction but mercifully. He will set his face against God but he will not succeed.”156 Driving out qualifies for admission into the category of persecution, but it is not forced conversion. Nor does the term merciful fit al-Mas’udi’s picture. In any case, it is clear that there were Jewish communities in Byzantium after the reign of Romanus, so unless there was mass Jewish migration to Byzantium after the death of Romanus or reversion of converted Jews to Judaism—both unlikely—it is necessary to conclude that the Jews of Byzantium were never forced to convert.157 As Robert Bonfil recently wrote in a discussion of Byzantine Jewry, “There is no need to assume that Romanus issued a formal decree of compulsory conversion, of which no evidence whatsoever has survived, beyond hearsay reports of [22] foreign provenience.”158

An eleventh-century text supports the view that there were no extreme persecutions of the Jews in the time of Romanus Lecapenus. The Nestorian metropolitan Elias of Nisibis compared the Byzantines to the Muslims in his book Demonstration of the Correctness of the Faith, written before 1046. He was critical of the Byzantines, who, according to him, deny Nestorians the right to build churches yet tolerate numerous Jews, offer them protection, and allow public worship and the construction of synagogues, even though the Jews say terrible things about Christianity.159 His argument would have been substantially weakened had the Jews been persecuted within the last century, as his readers were well acquainted with Byzantine realities; it is difficult to imagine that he would have taken this risk. It is simpler to assume that no such persecu- tions took place and that Elias of Nisibis had good grounds for his claim.

As for the third statement, on the date of the Khazar conversion, al-Mas’udi explicitly dates this event to the reign of ar-Rashid, who died in 809. The conversion, according to al-Mas’udi, would therefore have taken place between about 790 and 809, a date that contradicts the picture of the situation in Khazaria derived from sources related to the mission of Cyril and Methodius. It also does not fit with a reliable contemporary Muslim source that refers to the Khazars, that of ibn Khordadbeh. The examination of these statements reveals that al-Mas’udi presents problematic information in all three cases. This does not prove that everything he said was false, but it does show that he was far from an ideal or reliable source.

Almost every thing that Masudi says looks credible, and nothing to me rises to the level of falsehood.

I don't know what the semantics related to persecution are and whether or it was extreme or not, but it was present. What one would consider to be "great" mosque, may or may not be perceived "massive" to another. Even great and massive are not equivalent terms!

Furthermore, in world diplomacy dealing with interests rather than fraternity, letters are often written that do not expose all underlying disagreements, and this is sometimes purposely done in order to ameliorate contentious issues. The pressure from the Arabs would also naturally force the Byzantines to maintain ties to Khazars no matter what their internal policy vis a vis the Jews had been.

In a way the trip of Cyril and Methodius is further proof of Masudi's accuracy, as they had been invited to debate the pro and cons of Christian precepts versus others. Plus the Life of Methodius says: "The Jews that lived there much disparaged the Christian faith." http://etd.fcla.edu/UF/UFE0042646/quintos_m.pdf

Overall though, bringing in straw arguments does not to me negate the principal contention of the Jewishness of the Khazars. Clear and convincing proof has to be presented to negate attestations such as these - "We have seen in Toledo some of their descendants, pupils of the wise, and they told us that the remnant of them followed the Rabbanite faith" - and not by grasping for straws to find "problematic" references in massive treatises such as The Meadows of Gold.

AJL
07-16-2014, 07:24 PM
While Stempfer's paper does I think weaken the position of the Khazar argument significantly, I am not sure he has dealt a total deathblow to the hypothesis either as pertains to CTS6. What we are left with is some possible secondhand evidence that some portion of the Khazar Khaganate was at some point Jewish, and a repudiation of some further proposed evidence -- which neither supports nor refutes CTS6 having arisen among Khazars.

Again, I think it is not as likely as I once thought, especially when there are several credible opportunities for Iranian DNA to have entered the Israelite gene pool in the Second Temple period, but it is also probable that only ancient yDNA from along the Volga, or significantly more testing around the Caucasus, or both, will yield a satisfactory answer.