PDA

View Full Version : New early branch in P312



TigerMW
06-19-2019, 11:13 PM
FTDNA is reporting that the DF19 phylogenetic equivalent block has been broken. [Edit they are reporting Z4161+ DF19- calls that imply the block is broken. They have not done their "hap assurance" or hands-on interpretation and analysis yet.]

Z4161 now marks an earlier branch. A person with an EKA from Czech Republic is P312+ Z4161+ DF19-. [Edit DF19-].

Until now everyone who was Z4161+ was DF19+. Most people think DF19 in today’s populations looks northern and possibly Germanic.

Here is what DF19 project thinks.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-df19/about

Dewsloth
06-19-2019, 11:45 PM
I just saw him in the DF19 group list! Cool!

Dewsloth
06-19-2019, 11:50 PM
So now the DF19 block on the Big Tree has a "hat" block like L21 does :lol: ;)

https://www.ytree.net/

ArmandoR1b
06-19-2019, 11:59 PM
FTDNA is reporting that the DF19 phylogenetic equivalent block has been broken.

Z4161 now marks an earlier branch. A person with an EKA from Czech Republic is P312+ Z4161+ DF19+.

Until now everyone who was Z4161+ was DF19+. Most people think DF19 in today’s populations looks northern and possibly Germanic.

Here is what DF19 project thinks.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-df19/about

It looks like you meant to write DF19- since that is the only way to prove that Z4161 is an earlier branch and there is only one person in the SNP list (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF19?iframe=ysnp) with DF19- and Z4161+

TigerMW
06-20-2019, 02:45 AM
It looks like you meant to write DF19-
Yes, DF19-. He is DF19-.

TigerMW
06-20-2019, 01:21 PM
I don't think having a Z4161+ DF19- person from the Czech Republic means that this is where DF19 people originate. It is possible and this split of Z4161+ DF19- and Z4161+ DF19+ is back in the very early descendants of P312.

I want to emphasize how early this is. There are many mutation rates floating around out there and people often use 144 years per SNP, but this is per ComBed region coverage only and old Big Y coverage.

New Big Y coverage and FGC Elite (which has been out there for a while) are now on par and we are talking about mutation rates across their coverage as about one 85 years per SNP.

Z4161 stands alone without equivalents so that means the single Z4161 MRCA man is only one SNP (avg. 85 years) away from the P312 MRCA.

FTDNA has not formally updated their tree which means they have not done a direct "hands-on" interpretation yet so there is a chance they find the Z4161 call flaky or even recurrent but as of now the guy is R-Z4161*.

The surname appears Germanic so this could be Germanic wanderings or if there were other movements related to what was referred to as the Sudetenland.

On the other hand, this is possibly one more point of evidence on the stack that DF19 became Germanic early on perhaps as an original or proto-Germanic tribe member. L238 also has a lot of evidence leaning this way.

Dewsloth
06-20-2019, 03:00 PM
I wonder if it might turn up in some of those indeterminate "other P312" ancient samples that are in publications?

If they are only looking for DF19 and/or S232 (another member of the DF19 block I've seen used in older threads), then Poppa Z4161 might have been in the Beaker population studies all along, but not identified yet.

AlfonsoVIII
05-22-2020, 07:59 AM
:eek::eek::eek:

Dewsloth
05-22-2020, 02:34 PM
Tierras de Toledo ( Castilla la Nueva)
Ethnicity Celto-Roman
Nationality Spaniard
Y-DNA (P) R1b-DF19

:eek::eek::eek:

Whoah! B) :beerchug: I think you're the first Spanish DF19 I've ever seen. Out of over 900 members on the FTDNA DF19 Block Tree, the closest is _one_ from Portugal.

What testing did you use and have you tried to find out what subclade of DF19?

AlfonsoVIII
06-27-2020, 09:19 AM
Whoah! B) :beerchug: I think you're the first Spanish DF19 I've ever seen. Out of over 900 members on the FTDNA DF19 Block Tree, the closest is _one_ from Portugal.

What testing did you use and have you tried to find out what subclade of DF19?

Really I don't know for sure. I only know I'm P312. I had 24 markers and the Nevgen Y predictor give me more than 50% of probability for DF19. If I'm not DF19 probably can be L21.

Dewsloth
06-27-2020, 02:29 PM
Really I don't know for sure. I only know I'm P312. I had 24 markers and the Nevgen Y predictor give me more than 50% of probability for DF19. If I'm not DF19 probably can be L21.

Ahh, Nevgen.
See this post and the relevant ones below it like 129.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2622-Lebanon-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=676754&viewfull=1#post676754

There is a STR sequence that some DF19 share with many non-DF19 P312 subclades that can cause Nevgen to give odd predictions. I hope you have the opportunity to get some SNPs tested if this happens to you.