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Khamsin
06-23-2019, 01:48 PM
I inherited gluten intolerance from both sides of my family and this crushed my hope of being cured from it. If I have it from both mom and dad and the gene is already expressed, it will likely stay with me ��

Anyway, I am interested in knowing if gluten intolerance is widespread in Somalis. You see my parents are not cousins and I had ancestors who came from different regions but I got one copy of the famous celiac/gluten gene from each parent how lucky I am :(

This makes me think a lot more Somalis are intolerant and this probably why so many of them end up with diabetes. Most doctors in the West believe it is rare in Africans and that celiac is mostly a problem for North Western Europeans and some Scandinavians (so they never check Somalis unless someone asks for the test and even then, tjey may discourage). The trouble is when you don't stop gluten after your intolerance is comfirmed, you become at risk for other autoimmune diseases like diabetes mellitus (type 1) from what I know.

We probably got the intolerance from the Natufian which is high in my autosomal.

Omaar
06-23-2019, 03:39 PM
I am not sure how widespread is it in Somalia, but i have seen in Europe some somalis "adults and children", who have "Celiac Disease". I guess, it is easy to live in Somalia with "Asymptomatic Celiac Disease", because of somali diet. They usually plant and eat rice, corn, millet, bean, NOT wheat, rye, barley.

Khamsin
06-24-2019, 10:58 PM
I see I lost my reply yesterday.
I really think it is widespread among many Somali groups but we need researches to be done. Those old farmer genes are hurting us and we are not aware and doctors don't even know gluten intolerance is a thing back home. I heard about a little girl who was always sick and her family took her to a big hospital in a foreign country. The hospital: she had celiac.

VytautusofAukstaitija
06-25-2019, 12:14 AM
I don't think you have much knowledge on Somali and the general Cushitic/Erythrean prehistory and population genetics. What farmer genes? and which farmers exactly? the proto-Cushitic/Erythrean and most other Afroasiatic peoples went straight from hunter-cultivators to pastoralists. If anything, it's the pastoralist background of the ancestors of the Somalis that would be conducive to gluten intolerance. If our ancestors survived heavily off of farming wheat, barley, and rye, the selective pressure would have undoubtedly not favored those with gluten intolerance. But even with the partial cultivator background of the early Afroasiatic and early Cushitic/Erythrean peoples, gluten intolerance shouldn't even be a problem if your consuming the type of grains the early Cushitic and other NE African peoples (outside Lower Egypt) largely relied on, which didn't include wheat, but did include sorghum.

Also, celiac disease is not uncommon in the rest of the world. There is a reason gluten-free is very big in the west. So far, nothing suggests Somalis are out of the norm.

Also - it makes no sense to surmise about Natufians being the cause Somalis have celiac disease, especially since:

1) We have no idea if Natufians even contributed to the ancestry of the early Cushitic/Erythrean people, and thus the Somali genepool. You stated it as if it were a fact that Natufians did contribute to Somalis, when the truth is far from that and completely unknown as of now. If they did, it is much less than your assuming, as we have West Eurasian ancestry present in the oldest genomes from the African landmass yet - the 15,000 year old Ibermaurusians. And it was the Natufians that most likely traced some of their West Eurasian ancestry from NE Africa, as their is clear Ibermaurusian-like input in Natufians, and the Ibermaurusians predate the Natufians.

2) The Natufians were heavy on barley, wheat, and rye. If anything, if the early Cushitic/Erythreans and Somalis even had Natufian ancestry, it would have been more plausible that it decreases - not increases - gluten intolerance.

Khamsin
06-26-2019, 01:57 AM
Thank your reply but you seem a bit overconfident to me. Just because gluten intolerance has not been studied among Somalis does not mean it is not time to do some research.
While gluten free food may be a fad for some Hollywood celebrities, there are people suffering. In my family and other families, we sure are. I know people who took their family member 10,000 miles away just to be told to just stop eating bread. Gluten intolerance once expressed is not a small thing and it can really handicap you or shorten your life as more diseases add up.
It is not like I am saying everyone with diabetes has gluten intolerance but there must be many unknown cases (undiagnosed by doctors as it is not what they usually looking for). In the country where I live now, any child with diabetes is checked for gluten intolerance and I know two Somali families with a gluten intolerant and diabetic child. If they lived in Somalia or another country where this check-up is not done systematically, they may be still eating gluten and be sick all the time.
Not SURE it is frequent but at least the gene mutation could be. Among Somalis immigrant families, diabetes is quite spread unlike back home (at least where I lived it was not) but still not saying all diabetes are due to GI.
I am just making my hypothesis.
As far as I know Somalis have Natufians but not all Somalis have the same gene composition and deep ancestry.
You said since Natufians ate a lot of grains, people with that DNA should have developped resistance. Maybe some of them did, some died and the others still have the mutation (memory of the time the ancestors ate much wheat). Many doctors believe being intolerant to gluten is a good thing and it is the way the body is protecting itself.

sum1
06-26-2019, 04:54 PM
Thank your reply but you seem a bit overconfident to me. Just because gluten intolerance has not been studied among Somalis does not mean it is not time to do some research.
While gluten free food may be a fad for some Hollywood celebrities, there are people suffering. In my family and other families, we sure are. I know people who took their family member 10,000 miles away just to be told to just stop eating bread. Gluten intolerance once expressed is not a small thing and it can really handicap you or shorten your life as more diseases add up.
It is not like I am saying everyone with diabetes has gluten intolerance but there must be many unknown cases (undiagnosed by doctors as it is not what they usually looking for). In the country where I live now, any child with diabetes is checked for gluten intolerance and I know two Somali families with a gluten intolerant and diabetic child. If they lived in Somalia or another country where this check-up is not done systematically, they may be still eating gluten and be sick all the time.
Not SURE it is frequent but at least the gene mutation could be. Among Somalis immigrant families, diabetes is quite spread unlike back home (at least where I lived it was not) but still not saying all diabetes are due to GI.
I am just making my hypothesis.
As far as I know Somalis have Natufians but not all Somalis have the same gene composition and deep ancestry.
You said since Natufians ate a lot of grains, people with that DNA should have developped resistance. Maybe some of them did, some died and the others still have the mutation (memory of the time the ancestors ate much wheat). Many doctors believe being intolerant to gluten is a good thing and it is the way the body is protecting itself.

All Somalis have almost identical levels of Natufian/ANA ancestry ~40% minus, there aren't differences in Somalis autosomal makeup regardless of where those Somalis live.

VytautusofAukstaitija
06-27-2019, 12:59 AM
Thank your reply but you seem a bit overconfident to me. Just because gluten intolerance has not been studied among Somalis does not mean it is not time to do some research.
While gluten free food may be a fad for some Hollywood celebrities, there are people suffering. In my family and other families, we sure are. I know people who took their family member 10,000 miles away just to be told to just stop eating bread. Gluten intolerance once expressed is not a small thing and it can really handicap you or shorten your life as more diseases add up.
It is not like I am saying everyone with diabetes has gluten intolerance but there must be many unknown cases (undiagnosed by doctors as it is not what they usually looking for). In the country where I live now, any child with diabetes is checked for gluten intolerance and I know two Somali families with a gluten intolerant and diabetic child. If they lived in Somalia or another country where this check-up is not done systematically, they may be still eating gluten and be sick all the time.
Not SURE it is frequent but at least the gene mutation could be. Among Somalis immigrant families, diabetes is quite spread unlike back home (at least where I lived it was not) but still not saying all diabetes are due to GI.
I am just making my hypothesis.
As far as I know Somalis have Natufians but not all Somalis have the same gene composition and deep ancestry.
You said since Natufians ate a lot of grains, people with that DNA should have developped resistance. Maybe some of them did, some died and the others still have the mutation (memory of the time the ancestors ate much wheat). Many doctors believe being intolerant to gluten is a good thing and it is the way the body is protecting itself.

I apologize for not noticing the personal angle from which you wrote your post - I want to clarify that I always wanted a genetic survey on whatever host of "Somali-diseases" exist, ideally a full-on GWAS. It is possible that gluten intolerance is elevated for whatever reasons in Somalis. I definitely see where your coming from.

Several such genome-wide studies (http://https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/genomicresearch/gwastudies)of very high-density sample (100,000's even (http://https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/214973v2)) have been done on single target-study population groups - selected on any critrea, such as illness, geography, ancestry, social status, and any combination thereof - to find genetic causation and variables from anything like academic achievement (http://https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-018-0147-3), disease susceptibility (http://https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4459905/), even ones on such seemingly peripheral things such as being a morning person (http://https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10448), and drug use (http://https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4996024/). A GWAS on a similarly high-density Somali sample set (10,000's ideally) that captures very subtle associations - especially in health and disease susceptibility - is very much needed. The need for this becomes abundantly clear once you see how little is known on the cause of Somali lactase persistence despite the extensive decade-long study of the genetic factors of lactase persistence in a diversity of populations, some closely related to Somalis, as even Cushitic/Erythrean LP genes are low amongst ethnic Somalis, and another pathway (more epigenetic factors) most likely exists to explain the very high LP amongst ethnic Somalis. That lack of data for LP in Somalis should illustrate how little is known on Somali genetics outside what little we know for deep and shared ancestry, which - as I said - despite all studies on LP, even E. Africa-specific ones, nothing substantial pertaining to Somalis exists to explain this peculiarity of low percentage of LP genes, and the contrasting high lactase persistence nonetheless present amongst them. In addition - there is a current orthodoxy that an LP phenotype in dairy-dependent groups (like Somalis) results in some degree of a selective sweep (as seen in Europeans, Arabians), and thus homogeneity at the concerned regions of LP-conferring locus. Yet in the case of the Somali, we see the complete opposite, with an explosion of diversity in the LP locus despite genome-wide homogeneity (more so than the tested European and Arabian ethnic groups) and an increase in the number of pathways conferring LP, including possibly extremely rare and seemingly Somali-specific LP genotypes and unique intestinal biome. All this, along with the discrepancy of psychological issues in 2nd generation Somalis compared to their peers, such as OCD, autism, and similar illnesses at well above average rates likely has some background in the very homogeneous and isolated Somali genepool, and signals how unknown the effects of the Somali genepool due to strong isolation, selection, and homogeneity is.

Also - it's when you say things like "As far as I know Somalis have Natufians but not all Somalis have the same gene composition and deep ancestry" that shows how out of depth and how very little you know on Somali and Cushitic/Erythrean population genetics. And I mean this in a purely factual and non-combative manner, as I simply want to elucidate these things to you.

If Somalis don't have the same "gene composition" and deep ancestry, then there is no such thing as any clearly delineated human population group. There is no East Eurasian, West Eurasian, Natufian, AASI, ANE, ASE, and whatever number of components based on real ancestral population groups existing, because if such a group as homogeneous and rather inbred as Somalis doesn't qualify, then who does exactly?

Somalis are as genetically kindred as it gets outside of extreme and extensive consanguinity. Virtually all ethnic Somalis share the same deep ancestry, and not only Somalis, but all Samaal ethnic groups (minus language-shifting groups) are remarkably homogeneous when it comes to ancestry. Somalis share the longest segments of dna within group in Africa for a group practicing endogamous but outbred marriage patterns, only those practicing extensive caste-based cousin-marriage patterns like the Wolof and Fulani coming close and surpassing the Somalis in this regard, along with small, isolated or simply very low breeding sized populations . But ancestry-wise? the overwhelming majority of Somalis trace 90-100% of their ancestry to whatever bottleneck(s) occurred several thousand years ago amongst early and ancestral Somalis. As of now, we are unable to detect any substructure amongst unmixed Somalis. Even small, homogeneous populations like Lithuanians show it, now matter how small it may turn out to be.

And again - Natufian ancestry is not confirmed. As of now, it is merely a proxy to gauge the West Eurasian ancestry of Somalis and Cushitic/Erythrean peoples, not an actual ancestral group. And even then, it's far from a good proxy, which hints at something other than Natufian being the source of Somali West Eurasian ancestry, or at least the bulk of it. And in my opinion, most of it has to do with the paleolithic West Eurasian ancestry we saw in Ibermaurusian, possibly a localized NE African version of it. I don't really think we have as much basal as Natufians do (40-50%) in regards to the West Eurasian ancestry.

@sum1 - I always think Somalis are going to be around 40-45% West Eurasian, and as of current, no one has any idea about any ANA ancestry in Somalis and Cushitic/Erythrean groups - but since its basal to Eurasian ancestry, and more Eurasian-related than Mota, it shouldn't be impossible to detect vis a vis Eurasian ancestry, and Somalis select more Eurasian rich sources than ANA- and more non-Eurasian groups.

I would say once we know whatever AEA is, or whatever it is that makes up 55-60% of Somali ancestry - we can then accurately gauge how much ANA ancestry (if any) exists in Somalis. I myself believe that AEA in its current conception is a non-population, and a pseudo-component that is in fact a mix of predominately ANA and lesser and more basal African ancestry that contributed L0a, L2a, some small and rare L1 lineages. The grouping of those two ancestries would probably form such a ghost population whose positioning makes it essentially look and pull like some ancient ghost population that fits what we would expect of NE Africa. It is important to note that all groups carrying ths hypothetical AEA are significantly diluted, especially Mota and southeast African HG who carry heavy (almost half) divergent San-like ancestry, or West Africans who carry something much more divergent (large Basal Human + heavy archaic ancestry), or Somalis and most NE Africans (heavy West Eurasian ancestry).

And/or, it can be ANA itself is simply a pseudo-component. Ultimately, until we get ancient dna from paleolithic NE Africa from those cluster of related cultures inhabiting Upper Egypt and Lower Nubia from 30,000 years ago to 7,000 years ago, from the Nile and eastern deserts and possibly as far south as the Gash basin, I don't think anyone will have much of an idea about whatever ANA and AEA is. Pure statistical constructs - as they are created now - do have that downside, but are also very good at picking up on things we wouldn't otherwise question. Which it did when the Ibermaurusians were being modeled as a 4-way mix of Hadza, west-central African, and even San-like and West Eurasian ancestry. Or as half-Morrocan, half-Somali. Most accepted it, had it not been for a few folks picked up on disparities and irregularities with that model.

And when components are created for groups on the more basal end of human ancestry (further from Eurasians), we have no larger encompassing group ancestries (which aDNA would address) which could elucidate how basal, related and how much ancestry a ghost shares and is relative to Eurasians, and this results in creating a sort of trash dump where all that is unknown goes in by default, which SSA as a concept currently serves well. And especially when the age of the bulk of that shared ghost ancestry is very deep (30-40,000 years ago), the shared ancestry could be in any direction and composed of any ancestries, and as such, a AEA ghost ancestor population that forms some sort of ancestral pan east/west/north African group may only exist statistically, although I certainly believe that such an ancestral population existed as the tmrca of E-P2 and certain L3 lineages show, although archaeologically it is almost nowhere to be seen (although that may be an artifact of us expecting it to be a late paleolithic out-of-Ethiopia exodus, rather than looking to areas immediately bordering Ethiopia in earlier than expected time periods).

Khamsin
06-28-2019, 03:25 AM
Thank you for sharing what you know. I want to keep the focus on (the possible hypothetical issue) gluten intolerance being more widespread than doctors may think. I don't want to argue about Somalis having Natufians or not. If I am wrong that's fine, I have a great self-esteem :)

As far as I know, Somalis have been isolated from others so they are homogenous but I would not call us inbreds. Compared to the Afars, Somalis are exogamous. I get your point so let's move on. Somalis are homogenous but not all of them are the same. Maybe, my family is special. My mother, my grandma and my great grandma are all from different groups and yes we are from major groups but we also don't look like others and I have family that came from at least 3 different areas. We have been living in cities for many generations and great grandp have settled in different places and met spouses from there. This is not what I call endogamy.

So homogenous but not inbreds. You may have misunderstood what I meant by not having the same ancestors and gene composition. You and me must have some differences. No matter the homogeneity, we have differences since we don't have the same exact ancestors and I know I have differences with some other Somalis.

Where am I going with this? If you have not noticed GI among Somalis, it could be you are from a clan/area/town/part of the Horn of Africa where GI is rare or not witnessed. Homogeneity does not mean NO difference. Right? Now, eating pattern and diets are also different.
Anyway, you could also be from a place where people did not eat an imported diet until very recently and where people ate ancestral diet so not much GI is expressing among your family or neighbours etc.

Finally, it is not like I am asking all Somalis to start freaking out and ask for an gastroenterologist appointment. I want to raise awareness that it could (DID NOT say Must Be) hidden and it could help some poeple control their diabetes if their intolerance is proven. If people have no whatsoever concerns, they don't need to worry.

Wow! This post made tired.

Khamsin
06-28-2019, 03:58 AM
Brother, it would be nice to break down this discussion. You might wanna post something on the Natufians and/or other topics like the LP etc. It is getting hard to read long posts on my little phone.
By the way, I know nothing about LP but I am less interested. I am only interested in GI because this is diagnosed in my family.
However, maybe I need to give up on Somalis and GI. Maybe, I am less Somalis than others and I should just focus on my own family. After all, it is up to everyone to research their own family problems.

Khamsin
06-28-2019, 04:10 AM
Also, it is a turnoff when people start with "you don't have much knowledge" with------". If you want someone to read you, just quit these little expressions. You don't have to tell me you know more. If you do, I will realize it :)

Khamsin
06-28-2019, 04:28 AM
"Also - it makes no sense to surmise about Natufians being the cause Somalis have celiac disease"

Then, where is celiac disease from? Do you have a better hypothesis? By the way, the more you eat a food, the more chances you have to become allergic or intolerant to it.

This is why peanut allergy is widespread in America. People here eat peanut in sandwiches and not as snack (there are other reasons too of course but in Europe where people eat less peanuts, results are less allergies to peanuts).

sum1
06-29-2019, 01:08 AM
I apologize for not noticing the personal angle from which you wrote your post - I want to clarify that I always wanted a genetic survey on whatever host of "Somali-diseases" exist, ideally a full-on GWAS. It is possible that gluten intolerance is elevated for whatever reasons in Somalis. I definitely see where your coming from.

Several such genome-wide studies (http://https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/genomicresearch/gwastudies)of very high-density sample (100,000's even (http://https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/214973v2)) have been done on single target-study population groups - selected on any critrea, such as illness, geography, ancestry, social status, and any combination thereof - to find genetic causation and variables from anything like academic achievement (http://https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-018-0147-3), disease susceptibility (http://https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4459905/), even ones on such seemingly peripheral things such as being a morning person (http://https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10448), and drug use (http://https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4996024/). A GWAS on a similarly high-density Somali sample set (10,000's ideally) that captures very subtle associations - especially in health and disease susceptibility - is very much needed. The need for this becomes abundantly clear once you see how little is known on the cause of Somali lactase persistence despite the extensive decade-long study of the genetic factors of lactase persistence in a diversity of populations, some closely related to Somalis, as even Cushitic/Erythrean LP genes are low amongst ethnic Somalis, and another pathway (more epigenetic factors) most likely exists to explain the very high LP amongst ethnic Somalis. That lack of data for LP in Somalis should illustrate how little is known on Somali genetics outside what little we know for deep and shared ancestry, which - as I said - despite all studies on LP, even E. Africa-specific ones, nothing substantial pertaining to Somalis exists to explain this peculiarity of low percentage of LP genes, and the contrasting high lactase persistence nonetheless present amongst them. In addition - there is a current orthodoxy that an LP phenotype in dairy-dependent groups (like Somalis) results in some degree of a selective sweep (as seen in Europeans, Arabians), and thus homogeneity at the concerned regions of LP-conferring locus. Yet in the case of the Somali, we see the complete opposite, with an explosion of diversity in the LP locus despite genome-wide homogeneity (more so than the tested European and Arabian ethnic groups) and an increase in the number of pathways conferring LP, including possibly extremely rare and seemingly Somali-specific LP genotypes and unique intestinal biome. All this, along with the discrepancy of psychological issues in 2nd generation Somalis compared to their peers, such as OCD, autism, and similar illnesses at well above average rates likely has some background in the very homogeneous and isolated Somali genepool, and signals how unknown the effects of the Somali genepool due to strong isolation, selection, and homogeneity is.

Also - it's when you say things like "As far as I know Somalis have Natufians but not all Somalis have the same gene composition and deep ancestry" that shows how out of depth and how very little you know on Somali and Cushitic/Erythrean population genetics. And I mean this in a purely factual and non-combative manner, as I simply want to elucidate these things to you.

If Somalis don't have the same "gene composition" and deep ancestry, then there is no such thing as any clearly delineated human population group. There is no East Eurasian, West Eurasian, Natufian, AASI, ANE, ASE, and whatever number of components based on real ancestral population groups existing, because if such a group as homogeneous and rather inbred as Somalis doesn't qualify, then who does exactly?

Somalis are as genetically kindred as it gets outside of extreme and extensive consanguinity. Virtually all ethnic Somalis share the same deep ancestry, and not only Somalis, but all Samaal ethnic groups (minus language-shifting groups) are remarkably homogeneous when it comes to ancestry. Somalis share the longest segments of dna within group in Africa for a group practicing endogamous but outbred marriage patterns, only those practicing extensive caste-based cousin-marriage patterns like the Wolof and Fulani coming close and surpassing the Somalis in this regard, along with small, isolated or simply very low breeding sized populations . But ancestry-wise? the overwhelming majority of Somalis trace 90-100% of their ancestry to whatever bottleneck(s) occurred several thousand years ago amongst early and ancestral Somalis. As of now, we are unable to detect any substructure amongst unmixed Somalis. Even small, homogeneous populations like Lithuanians show it, now matter how small it may turn out to be.

And again - Natufian ancestry is not confirmed. As of now, it is merely a proxy to gauge the West Eurasian ancestry of Somalis and Cushitic/Erythrean peoples, not an actual ancestral group. And even then, it's far from a good proxy, which hints at something other than Natufian being the source of Somali West Eurasian ancestry, or at least the bulk of it. And in my opinion, most of it has to do with the paleolithic West Eurasian ancestry we saw in Ibermaurusian, possibly a localized NE African version of it. I don't really think we have as much basal as Natufians do (40-50%) in regards to the West Eurasian ancestry.

@sum1 - I always think Somalis are going to be around 40-45% West Eurasian, and as of current, no one has any idea about any ANA ancestry in Somalis and Cushitic/Erythrean groups - but since its basal to Eurasian ancestry, and more Eurasian-related than Mota, it shouldn't be impossible to detect vis a vis Eurasian ancestry, and Somalis select more Eurasian rich sources than ANA- and more non-Eurasian groups.

I would say once we know whatever AEA is, or whatever it is that makes up 55-60% of Somali ancestry - we can then accurately gauge how much ANA ancestry (if any) exists in Somalis. I myself believe that AEA in its current conception is a non-population, and a pseudo-component that is in fact a mix of predominately ANA and lesser and more basal African ancestry that contributed L0a, L2a, some small and rare L1 lineages. The grouping of those two ancestries would probably form such a ghost population whose positioning makes it essentially look and pull like some ancient ghost population that fits what we would expect of NE Africa. It is important to note that all groups carrying ths hypothetical AEA are significantly diluted, especially Mota and southeast African HG who carry heavy (almost half) divergent San-like ancestry, or West Africans who carry something much more divergent (large Basal Human + heavy archaic ancestry), or Somalis and most NE Africans (heavy West Eurasian ancestry).

And/or, it can be ANA itself is simply a pseudo-component. Ultimately, until we get ancient dna from paleolithic NE Africa from those cluster of related cultures inhabiting Upper Egypt and Lower Nubia from 30,000 years ago to 7,000 years ago, from the Nile and eastern deserts and possibly as far south as the Gash basin, I don't think anyone will have much of an idea about whatever ANA and AEA is. Pure statistical constructs - as they are created now - do have that downside, but are also very good at picking up on things we wouldn't otherwise question. Which it did when the Ibermaurusians were being modeled as a 4-way mix of Hadza, west-central African, and even San-like and West Eurasian ancestry. Or as half-Morrocan, half-Somali. Most accepted it, had it not been for a few folks picked up on disparities and irregularities with that model.

And when components are created for groups on the more basal end of human ancestry (further from Eurasians), we have no larger encompassing group ancestries (which aDNA would address) which could elucidate how basal, related and how much ancestry a ghost shares and is relative to Eurasians, and this results in creating a sort of trash dump where all that is unknown goes in by default, which SSA as a concept currently serves well. And especially when the age of the bulk of that shared ghost ancestry is very deep (30-40,000 years ago), the shared ancestry could be in any direction and composed of any ancestries, and as such, a AEA ghost ancestor population that forms some sort of ancestral pan east/west/north African group may only exist statistically, although I certainly believe that such an ancestral population existed as the tmrca of E-P2 and certain L3 lineages show, although archaeologically it is almost nowhere to be seen (although that may be an artifact of us expecting it to be a late paleolithic out-of-Ethiopia exodus, rather than looking to areas immediately bordering Ethiopia in earlier than expected time periods).

A very informative post.

I also believe there might be a hunter-gatherer component in Somalis that is difficult to detect. Certain maternal haplogroups such as mine L3i2 are completely restricted to the Horn with not even Southern Cushities carrying them. Additionally, a Somali with the Paternal haplogroup M281 also was discovered which would indicate contact with a population somewhere in the horn.

VytautusofAukstaitija
06-29-2019, 04:31 AM
A very informative post.

I also believe there might be a hunter-gatherer component in Somalis that is difficult to detect. Certain maternal haplogroups such as mine L3i2 are completely restricted to the Horn with not even Southern Cushities carrying them. Additionally, a Somali with the Paternal haplogroup M281 also was discovered which would indicate contact with a population somewhere in the horn.

No doubt there must be some degree of Paleolithic Horner ancestry. But we mustn't forget that just as there are Somalis walking around with mtdna L3x and L3i2, there are also those with mtdna T2c and J1. I also remember seeing a Somali J1-P56 sample.

I believe that some of these Paleolithic Horner mtdna and ydna has an origin in the assimilation of Habesha slaves, as well as intermarriage between Habesha groups and Somalis. The contact between these groups in late antiquity is rather significant, and culminates in the clear heavy influence of Abyssinian-style statecraft on early Somali Imperial states. Abyssinian socio-political and cultural influence is also very clear in the general archaeology and burial practices and items of the Somali early Islamic period, wherein we see alot of Judaic and Christian graves, bibles written in a Habesha language - and other items. The heavy intercourse of later Habesha groups like the Harari with the Somali also left its mark, and it may be around this period those several Somali clans who have clan founders who are stated as being half-Habesha/various Abyssinian due Habesha/Abyssinian mothers might have been born. Perhaps the Somali E-M281 may have a Habesha paternal ancestor, maybe from the pre-Islamic period, but from the late Medivial period there is clear evidence of high-status Habesha males marrying the daughters of figures like Ahmed Gran, and similarly high status Somalis like Nur Mujahid married high-status Habesha woman. And that the Somali-Harari forces carried off the entire female members of many royal and aristocratic Abyssinian houses during the Conquest period, and extensive hauling of masses of Abyssinian slaves from the Ethiopian plateau into the Somali lowlands for both export into the wider Muslim world and for domestic slave markets must have left a significant mark in Somali mtdna.

This older more Habesha layer was plied on in the 1820/40's onwards - the last great migration period of the Somalis - with pervasive admixture in the frontier areas of the southwestern/eastern periphery of the Somali territories where warrior bands of young Somali males would take females almost exclusively at times from newly contacted Nilotic and Cushitic groups such as the Masai, Samburu, and Boran and Warra-Daya Oromos - both by force (as with the Boran) and choice (Masai). It is in this period onwards until the 1910's where we see the appearance of Auliyahan, Mohamed Zubeir, and Degodiye sub-clans in areas of present-day northern Kenya who descend almost exclusively of Somali males and non-Somali women, both captive and free. Which is why so many Somalis sampled thus far from Kenya cluster between Somalis and Oromos/Masais/Samburu, despite no change in ydna composition compared with more northern Somalis.

I believe the older more Habesha layer brought alot of the JT and other Semitic as well as some of paleolithic Horner mtdna lineages some Somalis carry that is heavy in Habeshas, and that the later Oromo heavy layer reinforced this - but is much more localized and didn't have time to spread-out equally. The earlier Habesha layer brought some ydna as well, seeing that J1-P56 Somali sample and possibly even this Somali E-M281, but ultimately both Habesha and Oromo ancestry is Somalis is almost completely maternal, as these type of guys are exceedingly rare.

NetNomad
06-29-2019, 01:12 PM
I believe that some of these Paleolithic Horner mtdna and ydna has an origin in the assimilation of Habesha slaves, as well as intermarriage between Habesha groups and Somalis.

I don't think this is true. I have looked into the paleolithic HOA maternal lineages Somalis have and often they have TMRCA of over 5,000 to 25,000 years from Ethiopian samples. Leaning more towards local origins.

23andme does a rather good job at distinguishing Somalis who are solely Somali in origin from Somalis with Ethiopian admixture. Many of my Somali cousins on the relative finder tool on 23andMe carry paleolithic HOA lineages and score practically 100% Somali. Ruling out recent Ethiopian origins. There is evidence that people lived in Somalia prior to the arrival of Cushites.

The E-M281 individual Somali also appear not to be Ethiopian admixed but is autosomally a standard Somali.

Mirix
10-10-2020, 11:20 AM
People here are mentioning Naftufian DNA LOL, when the Somali Gluten intolerance could just be due to the absence of it in the Ancient Somali diet.