PDA

View Full Version : First Mesolithic ancient Y-DNA is I*, I2 and I2a1b*



Jean M
12-24-2013, 11:40 AM
Lazaridis, I. et al. (2013), Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for Europeans, pre-print online 23 December 2013. http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552


Analysis of ancient DNA can reveal historical events that are difficult to discern through study of present-day individuals. To investigate European population history around the time of the agricultural transition, we sequenced complete genomes from a ~7,500 year old early farmer from the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) culture from Stuttgart in Germany and an ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour rock shelter in Luxembourg. We also generated data from seven ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherers from Motala in Sweden. We compared these genomes and published ancient DNA to new data from 2,196 samples from 185 diverse populations to show that at least three ancestral groups contributed to present-day Europeans. The first are Ancient North Eurasians (ANE), who are more closely related to Upper Paleolithic Siberians than to any present-day population. The second are West European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), related to the Loschbour individual, who contributed to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners. The third are Early European Farmers (EEF), related to the Stuttgart individual, who were mainly of Near Eastern origin but also harbored WHG-related ancestry. We model the deep relationships of these populations and show that about ~44% of the ancestry of EEF derived from a basal Eurasian lineage that split prior to the separation of other non-Africans.


Loschbour, Heffingen [LSB 1] (6220-5990 BC): dark hair, 50% probability of blue eyes. Y-DNA I2a1b* (L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, M438+, L68+, P38+, M170+, M359.2-, L161.1-, L621-)

Motola males c. 6000 BC:

Motola 2: I* (P38+ , U179+ , L41+, M253-, L37-)
Motola 3: I2 (L68+, M258+, U179+, L181-, L417-)
Motola 9: I* (P38+, P40-)
Motola 12: I2a1b* (L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, L68+, M170+, M258+, U179+, M359.2-, L621-)

Anglecynn
12-24-2013, 11:46 AM
Perhaps this also supports a later development of I1, rather than an earlier one?

Jean M
12-24-2013, 12:45 PM
Perhaps this also supports a later development of I1, rather than an earlier one?

The lineage that led to I1 is as old as that which led to I2. I1 has a much later expansion than I2.

The difference seems to be that the I1 lineage was not an early adopter of farming. So it maintained itself at replacement level, as hunter-gatherers do. It accumulated a lot of mutations (a sign of age), but no subclades. That picture is of only one son surviving (or having surviving male offspring) from each father. So along the route that led to I1 are many generations that we would label I*, because we have no living samples between I* and I1. They may turn up in ancient DNA.

I just updated my page on haplogroup I to take into account the new ancient DNA results. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/haplogroupi.shtml

DMXX
12-24-2013, 01:25 PM
The aDNA data seems to conclusively supports one of the common views in the genetic genealogy community, where Y-DNA haplogroup I is a quintessentially European lineage. Its' presence all across prehistoric sites from Spain to Sweden is quite telling.

Looks like this might be the case where frequency is indicative of the general zone of development since prehistoric times, which is in direct contrast to Y-DNA R1b.

RCO
12-24-2013, 01:31 PM
Yes, but we can find some basal types of haplogroup I continuously living in the Northern Middle East and soon we are going to know their whole sequence. I think some basal types of I and J remained close to their IJ original cradle in some regions of Northern Iran and East Anatolia.

newtoboard
12-24-2013, 02:00 PM
Yes, but we can find some basal types of haplogroup I continuously living in the Northern Middle East and soon we are going to know their whole sequence. I think some basal types of I and J remained close to their IJ original cradle in some regions of Northern Iran and East Anatolia.

Which ones are those? Almost all Middle Eastern I is I2c and I2a-Din (and there is even no need to consider the possibility of Middle Eastern I1 as living there continuously). Both of these could have (and likely) did arrive with Indo-European speaking nomads from north of the Black Sea or Indo-European migrations from the Balkans (also later empires that spanned Anatolia and the Balkans are a possibility as is the Silk Road). Both have their center of diversity and frequency in Europe. Even if some I is found in Asia that is older it is likely from the Mesolithic corridor that spanned from Iberia to Siberia or from some sort of migration from the North Caspian imo.

RCO
12-24-2013, 02:18 PM
You can find small pockets of haplogroup I in the last paper of Julie di Cristofaro: Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge. Basal types of J and I from Iran and Central Asia can have a very interesting history and they can have complete new sequences of whole Y-DNA, completely different from the Western European cases.

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0076748.s007

rms2
12-24-2013, 02:23 PM
This is big news. Thanks, Jean. I updated my little Google map to include it.

http://goo.gl/maps/Dh90

newtoboard
12-24-2013, 02:29 PM
You can find small pockets of haplogroup I in the last paper of Julie di Cristofaro: Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge. Basal types of J and I from Iran and Central Asia can have a very interesting history and they can have complete new sequences of whole Y-DNA, completely different from the Western European cases.

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0076748.s007

Is this any different from the old studies which showed Central Asian I being I2a2? Or contradict anything I said about the majority of West Asian I being I2a-DIN and I2c with a small minority of I1. All four of these lineages have their center of diversity and frequency in Europe. Does this paper find anything that disputes that?

There isn't much I in Asia and whatever there is can be explained by European admixture. Just because some of these lineages have STR values not typical of Europe doesn't mean they originated in Asia and have been living there for thousands of years. The same logic could be applied to the small amounts of R1a-M458 in the North Caucasus or R1b-L51 in Armenians.

RCO
12-24-2013, 02:42 PM
You need the phylogenetic applications of whole Y-chromosome sequences to understand the history of I and J in places like Northern Iran and Eastern Anatolia. R1a-M458 and R1b-L51 have far less new SNPs than I and J basal cases. Count the new SNPs ! I had 185 new FGC SNPs in my J1b test. R1a-M458 and R1b-L51 will not have a big number of new SNPs because they are not old enough to compare with I and J basal types.

Heber
12-24-2013, 04:10 PM
When Genographic recently tested in Mayo, they found 88% R1b and 12% I, R1a.
The Prime Minister (Taoiseach) Enda Kenny, a native of Mayo, results were I.
Genographic attributed the R1a and I to later migrations eg Bronze Age or Viking.
I suspect the I results are closer to the Megalithic Period as some of the oldest and largest Megalithic and Neolithic structures, Carrowmore and Ceide Fields are nearby.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/genographic/

1087

rossa
12-24-2013, 04:27 PM
When Genographic recently tested in Mayo, they found 88% R1b and 12% I, R1a.
The Prime Minister (Taoiseach) Enda Kenny, a native of Mayo, results were I.
Genographic attributed the R1a and I to later migrations eg Bronze Age or Viking.
I suspect the I results are closer to the Megalithic Period as some of the oldest and largest Megalithic and Neolithic structures, Carrowmore and Ceide Fields are nearby.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/genographic/

1087

I thought Enda Kenny was M222, I seem to remember seeing a map which had I-M253 at high levels in Mayo. Hopefully we get a betetr breakdown soon.
Jean, are there many new ancient DNA sample results on the horizon?

Heber
12-24-2013, 04:39 PM
"Prime Minister Enda Kenny’s paternal Geno 2.0 results found a lineage that is found at moderate frequency in northern Europe, including Ireland, Britain and Scandinavia. This particular lineage Haplogroup I, spread from the Balkans during the post-glacial recolonization of Europe at the end of the last Ice Age. The Prime Minister’s maternal haplogroup, H2 is much rarer in Ireland, reaching a maximum of 5-10% in parts of Eastern Europe and Scandinavia. It was originally spread during the post-glacial recolonization of Europe at the end of the last ice age."

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/06/26/gathering-irish-genes/

Rathna
12-24-2013, 05:02 PM
I had 185 new FGC SNPs in my J1b test. R1a-M458 and R1b-L51 will not have a big number of new SNPs because they are not old enough to compare with I and J basal types.

185 SNPs in an FGC are the same of 60 in Big Y or similar, and even less.

lgmayka
12-24-2013, 08:37 PM
I must apparently repost and expand in this thread the important point I cited yesterday in the original thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1756-Ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three-ancestral-populations-for-Europeans&p=24327&viewfull=1#post24327) when I first posted the haplogroup I information:
---
On a finer scale, a modern Russian individual (HGDP00887) was found to share high similarity with the Loschbour individual. Out of 2,790 informative positions in both individuals (9 were not covered by reads in Loschbour), only 5 sites were different, including 3 transversions and 2 transitions. We used another Russian individual (HGDP00894) to show that all five of these five mutations fell on the HGDP00887 branch rather than on the Loschbour branch. These derived mutations may either have occurred on the HGDP00887 branch after divergence from Loschbour, or they might represent errors in HGDP00887.
---

The Loschbour individual was M423+ L178+ L161- L621- , which Ken Nordtvedt says has not been observed in modern Y-DNA. ("I don't believe we have a present day example in our databases which is M423+ L178+ but ancestral for both L621 and L161.") Clearly, then, we need to know more about this HGDP00887 individual.

R.Rocca
12-25-2013, 09:14 PM
It is quite interesting that the Urnfield Culture, Lichtenstein Cave site produced 12 of 16 (75%) I2a2b. The cave is actually in Lower Saxony. That I know of, no I1 has been confirmed yet in any aDNA samples, just flavors of I2a. One has to wonder if I1 did not cross the North Sea until the Germanic expansions.

newtoboard
12-25-2013, 09:18 PM
There isn't any aDNA from the South Baltic is there?

newtoboard
12-25-2013, 09:21 PM
I think I read one thing about I1 crossing both the baltic and north seas with single grave.

pyromatic
12-26-2013, 07:12 AM
It is quite interesting that the Urnfield Culture, Lichtenstein Cave site produced 12 of 16 (75%) I2a2b. The cave is actually in Lower Saxony. That I know of, no I1 has been confirmed yet in any aDNA samples, just flavors of I2a. One has to wonder if I1 did not cross the North Sea until the Germanic expansions.

I1's MRCA is young but not young enough for I1's expansion to be associated with Germanic migrations. Its age and phylogeographical structure fit more with a spread from the western Corded Ware Culture (Battleaxe, Single Grave) and subsequent Nordic Bronze Age.

R.Rocca
12-26-2013, 12:01 PM
I1's MRCA is young but not young enough for I1's expansion to be associated with Germanic migrations. Its age and phylogeographical structure fit more with a spread from the western Corded Ware Culture (Battleaxe, Single Grave) and subsequent Nordic Bronze Age.


It doesn't need to be. It could have been bottled up in Scandinavia for thousands of years before finally migrating during the Germanic expansions. Also, it would be difficult to associate it with Corded Ware as ancient DNA samples have been lacking I1 to date. Besides, it is a almost a necessity to have Corded Ware as heavily R1a at this point to explain the spread of R1a.

newtoboard
12-26-2013, 11:06 PM
It doesn't need to be. It could have been bottled up in Scandinavia for thousands of years before finally migrating during the Germanic expansions. Also, it would be difficult to associate it with Corded Ware as ancient DNA samples have been lacking I1 to date. Besides, it is a almost a necessity to have Corded Ware as heavily R1a at this point to explain the spread of R1a.


Hasn't Ken N. been recently arguing I1 expanded from the South Baltic? I also believe recent findings have been pointing to a greater diversity of I1 in continental Europe particularly Germany with some old clades distributed around the Baltic. I have my doubts on Corded Ware being so homogenous. I think there have only been 3 samples from Corded Ware tested so far. One from Elau in East Germany that was an upstream R1a, and two from Southern Poland which were likely G and G/I/J. So I think it is a bit early to say Corded Ware had no I1 due to the small sample size and a complete lack of samples from the Southern Baltic and North Sea coasts. Also who knows what Western Corded Ware carried. It is worth noting that the branches of R1a best associated with that region are CTS4385/L664 which Michal thinks doesn't even reach a frequency of 1% anywhere. That seems like a very low rate of survival for Corded Ware lineages. So I1 might still be a a candidate to be a part of that mix. But then again we shouldn't expect Corded Ware lineages to have survived everywhere (especially since I2 in Scandanavia didn't do a good job of surviving) and I1's presence in Corded Ware probably should have spread some I1 deep into Asia via the Corded Ware>Fatyanovo-Balanovo>Abashevo chain of cultures (unless of course this chain was cultural or a bottleneck reduced the frequency of I1 to zero).

pyromatic
12-27-2013, 06:35 AM
It doesn't need to be. It could have been bottled up in Scandinavia for thousands of years before finally migrating during the Germanic expansions. Also, it would be difficult to associate it with Corded Ware as ancient DNA samples have been lacking I1 to date. Besides, it is a almost a necessity to have Corded Ware as heavily R1a at this point to explain the spread of R1a.

Modern phylogeography is inconsistent with a dispersal from Scandinavia.

As for Motala2, only M253 of the numerous phyloequivalent I1 SNPs was tested. None of the I2, I2a, I2b, or I2c defining SNPs was tested. So to say it's I* is not justified. The same for Motala9, which had just two SNPs tested - one that is phyloequivalent to M253 (negative) and another that is among those defining I (positive). My suspicion is that these two samples would also be I2, but we certainly can't rule out pre-I1 or some line that is more similar to I1 than I2. The big point is that I1 was not found in mesolithic samples in its modern stomping ground and that I2-M423, which is rare in Scandinavia, was.

pyromatic
12-27-2013, 06:51 AM
Jean M. I love your website Ancestral Journeys (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/). It has so much ancient DNA you can compare with modern DNA at places like Eupedia and FTDNA. Were Motola 2 and Motola 9 for sure I* or just negative for all the I subclades they were tested for? It would make sense if all the Y DNA from Motola, Sweden was tested for I2a1b that they would all be positive, and that I2a1b*(X I2a1b1, I2a1b2, I2a1b3) was popular in many areas of Europe in the Mesolithic. This new Y DNA probably means I2a1b3 L621 has a Mesolithic origin in or around eastern Europe, maybe it spread after the Mesolithic but still. I know that I2a1b2 L61.1 is mainly in north-west Europe even though the Luxemburg man was negative for it I bet it also has a Mesolithic origin somewhere around where it is today. Y DNA I2a2 and I1 were probably somewhere in central Europe during the Mesolithic and I2a1a CTS595 was somewhere in western Europe. Unlike I2a1a MTS595 which is very exclusive to western Europe I2a1b is in eastern and western Europe, so it kind of makes sense these Mesolithic northwest Europeans had I2a1b.

I can't wait till that paper on La Brana-1's genome comes out, if they get his Y DNA it will probably be I2a1a1 M26 unless his paternal line goes back to a farmer. If there is more Y DNA taken from Mesolithic central Europe I2a2 P214 and I1 M253 will probably pop up. I am not very surprised non of the Y DNA samples from Mesolithic Sweden had hg I1. Because all modern Scandinavians including Sami(mtDNA V) have about as much farmer mtDNA as the rest of Europe, it makes sense who ever brought Y DNA I1 to Scandinavia were farmers. I think there was probably major population replacement that occurred in Scandinavia during the metal ages. There is evidence of this in the hunter gatherer mtDNA from Karelia, Gotland, and now Motola, Sweden.

In most regions of Europe there has probably been major population replacement since the Mesolithic. The only Europeans that may have mainly Mesolithic ancestry are central, northern-western, eastern, and especially northeastern.

There's no reason to suspect I1 existed in the mesolithic. The results of this paper, both the positive and negative SNPs, are consistent with datings for these nodes. So it's reasonable to then expect the datings for I1 and its subclades are also relatively accurate, which also put I1's MRCA in the neolithic. Should this be the case, researchers need to begin testing more of the phyloequivalent SNPs if we're to find where (pre-)I1 got its start.

pyromatic
12-27-2013, 07:05 AM
I don't think you can extrapolate a recent expansion from a single line as evidence of late adoption of farming and maintenance at replacement level. It could be consistent with that but need not imply such a conclusion. You might make the same claim in regard to R1b then (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/11/one-to-three-men-fathered-most-western.html). I would like to see the same analysis performed with regard to I1.

Jean M
12-27-2013, 11:36 AM
Thanks for clarifying that the I*'s were not tested for I2.

You will see in my original post:

Motola 2: I* (P38+ , U179+ , L41+, M253-, L37-).
Motola 9: I* (P38+, P40-)

M253 = I1
P40 = I1
L37 = I2a2

Possibly they got no call for I2, I2a and I2a1 mutations on these two samples. They certainly tested other samples for them.

Jean M
12-27-2013, 11:46 AM
I don't think you can extrapolate a recent expansion from a single line as evidence of late adoption of farming and maintenance at replacement level..

Of course I can. I have done. I think what you mean is that I shouldn't! :biggrin1: There are of course other possibilities. This would be a good place to suggest and debate them. Welcome to the forum.


You might make the same claim in regard to R1b then ..

I do indeed draw similar conclusions - not quite the same. But that is the topic of another thread. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1622-Another-R1b-model-Sikora-et-al-2013

GTC
12-27-2013, 12:11 PM
It gets annoying when people assume I1 was originally Scandinavian. If they do just a tiny bit of research on how its subclades are distributed they will find it is more diverse in central Europe than Scandinavia. It is not only Germanic too because I1a2 L22 is pre Germanic in Scandinavia, and I1 definitely is as a whole.


I think sites like Eupedia promote the Scandinavian bit on the basis of frequency of modern populations, rather than diversity. Some quotes:

"Haplogroup I is the oldest major haplogroup in Europe and in all probability the only one that originated there (apart from very minor haplogroups like C6 and deep subclades of other haplogroups)."

"The I1 branch is estimated to have split away 20,000 years ago and evolved in isolation in Scandinavia during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic."

"Haplogroup I1 is the most common I subclade in northern Europe. It is found mostly in Scandinavia and Finland, where it typically represent over 35% of the male Y-chromosomes. Associated with the Norse ethnicity, I1 is found in all places invaded by ancient Germanic tribes and the Vikings."

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

Jean M
12-27-2013, 12:44 PM
The Loschbour individual was M423+ L178+ L161- L621- , which Ken Nordtvedt says has not been observed in modern Y-DNA. ("I don't believe we have a present day example in our databases which is M423+ L178+ but ancestral for both L621 and L161.").

Just adding a link to where he said this: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2013-12/1387905885

He added:


I estimated the age of the node where eventual L621+ branch line parts from eventual L161+ branch line to be 12,000 years ago. See "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" at my web link below.
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/ i.e.

http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf

ADW_1981
12-27-2013, 02:26 PM
It gets annoying when people assume I1 was originally Scandinavian. If they do just a tiny bit of research on how its subclades are distributed they will find it is more diverse in central Europe than Scandinavia. It is not only Germanic too because I1a2 L22 is pre Germanic in Scandinavia, and I1 definitely is as a whole.

Thanks for clarifying that the I*'s were not tested for I2, I think all were probably I2a1b*(- all 3 subclades). mtDNA U2e, U4, and U5 now have been found in Mesolithic central Europe, Scandinavia(Sweden and an island by Gotland), and Karelia. This shows they had a somewhat close maternal relationship also now Y DNA I2a1b has been found in Mesolithic central Europe and Sweden. When looking at mtDNA from Mesolithic Europe I did see some differences between Russia-Scandinavian hunter gatherer mtDNA with the rest of Europe. All U5 subclades from Mesolithic Scandinavia and Russia are under U5a while most from the rest of Mesolithic Europe are under U5b. I see the same pattern in U5 subclades in the Neolithic and metal ages. The bronze and iron age kurgan people of Asia had a high amount of U5(all 13 with subclade were U5a), U2e, and U4 like Mesolithic hunter gatherers of Russia. Most of the U5 subclades from Neolithic central Europe were under U5b. But then in Bell beaker and Corded ware most is U5a, and U4 and U2e pop up for the first time since the Mesolithic. I think that is evidence people from far eastern Europe migrated to central Europe in the copper age.

Some of the Motola results are bonafide I*. What is unusual about this? This is exactly what we would expect considering that M253 was always thought to be neolithic age or younger by the mathematicians.

pyromatic
12-27-2013, 02:56 PM
Some of the Motola results are bonafide I*. What is unusual about this? This is exactly what we would expect considering that M253 was always thought to be neolithic age or younger by the mathematicians.

Which Motala are true I*?

For Motala2, tested were the following:
I-defining SNPs: P38, U179, L41
I1-defining SNP: M253
No I2
No I2a
No I2b
No I2c
Instead we have the following subclades:
I1a2a1a (Z140), I2a1b3 (L621), I2a2 (L37), I2a2a1b2 (L703), and I2a2a1c1b1a1a (S434).

You cannot possibly claim this is truly I* if only one of the 24 I1-defining SNPs is tested and NONE of the I2(a,b,c)-defining SNPs.

For Motala9, only P38 (which is among the several SNPs-defining I) and P40 (also one of 24 I1-defining SNPs) were tested.

This is also not a true I*. If you want to call them such, they must be negative for ALL I1 and I2 defining SNPs. Simply put, these two are just I for now and perhaps forever if no other testing is performed.

ADW_1981
12-27-2013, 03:34 PM
Which Motala are true I*?

For Motala2, tested were the following:
I-defining SNPs: P38, U179, L41
I1-defining SNP: M253
No I2
No I2a
No I2b
No I2c
Instead we have the following subclades:
I1a2a1a (Z140), I2a1b3 (L621), I2a2 (L37), I2a2a1b2 (L703), and I2a2a1c1b1a1a (S434).

You cannot possibly claim this is truly I* if only one of the 24 I1-defining SNPs is tested and NONE of the I2(a,b,c)-defining SNPs.

For Motala9, only P38 (which is among the several SNPs-defining I) and P40 (also one of 24 I1-defining SNPs) were tested.

This is also not a true I*. If you want to call them such, they must be negative for ALL I1 and I2 defining SNPs. Simply put, these two are just I for now and perhaps forever if no other testing is performed.

You're correct that Motala 2 wasn't tested for the I2 defining SNPs, so I am incorrect there. However, it's equally possible and quite likely that he was positive for some of the 24 defining I1 SNPs, but not the M253 one, which would make him some intermediate lineage that is neither I1 nor plain I. At this point the nomenclature can't even keep up so we don't need to go all OCD about it.

pyromatic
12-30-2013, 06:01 PM
Ken Nordtvedt just posted on the HG I mailing list that many of the SNPs previously thought to be phyloequivalent to M423 were found to be ancestral in the Loschbour and Motala12 samples, whereas several others were found to be derived, after the study authors went back and rechecked them. This obviously breaks their phyloequivalence and suggest these ancient individuals represent a now-extinct branch of I2 or are the ancestors of what would become the modern I2-M423 lineage.


A brand new research publication “Ancient human genomes suggest 3 ancestral populations for present day Europeans” assembled genomes for several 8000 year old bones found in northern Europe. All but one of the ancient males were found to be of Y haplogroup I, and the autosomal tendencies of the Y Hg I folks tended to be of the “western hunter gatherer” type, probably representative of the first post-LGM folks to repopulate northern Europe.
I think one of the paper’s tables suggests that today about 45 percent or so of the genome for people in some of the northern Europe countries descends from the original hunter-gatherer population, with this percentage falling as one moves south and southeast toward the Mediterranean and Mid East.

A couple of the bones (Loschbour and Motala12) were even found to be L178+ L161- L621-, putting them as a possibly new more ancient branch off of the tree branch leading to our modern L178+ L621+ Dinaric and L178+ L161+ Isles populations.

In the meantime our Geno2 collective results showed up 9 new snps which were phyloequivalent to L178 and M423 in the face of present data from present-day dna customers’ tests.

One of the authors of the paper named above has very kindly checked his Loschbour and Motala12 dna samples for their allele states on the 9 snps found from us hobbyists’ Geno2 work.

Those 9 snps break about equally between being found ancestral and derived in Loschbour and Motala12, thereby breaking the phyloequivalence and putting the 8000 year old bone dna on a new branch of the I Tree. This branch has either gone extinct or leads to a population of today so rare it has not yet shown up in our examined public databases.

These findings which result from a combination of evidence from different workers, academic and hobbyist and commercial, is illustrated in the updated “Tree and Map for Haplogroup I” which can be seen at my website link given below.

Even L1224, a snp originally discovered in a WTY customer’s results, was previously found phyloequivalent to L178 and M423 by further selective testing. But now Loschbour is found ancestral for it while remaining derived for L178 and M423.

Overall, the paper “Ancient human genomes.........” in my view adds strength to the view long held by some of us that haplogroup I was in Europe among the hunter-gatherers well before the agriculturalists spread into Europe from the Mid East.

You can see where these individuals would fall on Ken Nordtvedt's tree (see his website for all his various I1 and I2 trees):
1138

Jean M
12-30-2013, 06:49 PM
Ken Nordtvedt just posted on the HG I mailing list that many of the SNPs previously thought to be phyloequivalent to M423 were found to be ancestral in the Loschbour and Motala12 samples, whereas several others were found to be derived, after the study authors went back and rechecked them. This obviously breaks their phyloequivalence and suggest these ancient individuals represent a now-extinct branch of I2 or are the ancestors of what would become the modern I2-M423 lineage.

Must say that makes a lot more sense to me. I have updated my Mesolithic DNA and Haplogroup I pages accordingly.

lgmayka
12-30-2013, 09:50 PM
Ken Nordtvedt just posted on the HG I mailing list that many of the SNPs previously thought to be phyloequivalent to M423 were found to be ancestral in the Loschbour and Motala12 samples, whereas several others were found to be derived, after the study authors went back and rechecked them. This obviously breaks their phyloequivalence and suggest these ancient individuals represent a now-extinct branch of I2 or are the ancestors of what would become the modern I2-M423 lineage.
Once again I quote from the paper's supplementary information:
---
On a finer scale, a modern Russian individual (HGDP00887) was found to share high similarity with the Loschbour individual. Out of 2,790 informative positions in both individuals (9 were not covered by reads in Loschbour), only 5 sites were different, including 3 transversions and 2 transitions. We used another Russian individual (HGDP00894) to show that all five of these five mutations fell on the HGDP00887 branch rather than on the Loschbour branch. These derived mutations may either have occurred on the HGDP00887 branch after divergence from Loschbour, or they might represent errors in HGDP00887.
---

The question is, What is the Russian's precise classification? I don't mean a wild guess. Does anyone have access to the raw data for HGDP00887, and can check the SNPs (previously thought to be) phyloequivalent to M423 and downstream from M423 ?

pyromatic
12-31-2013, 10:56 AM
The question is, What is the Russian's precise classification? I don't mean a wild guess. Does anyone have access to the raw data for HGDP00887, and can check the SNPs (previously thought to be) phyloequivalent to M423 and downstream from M423 ?

There was a call on the hg I mailing list to see if additional information about this individual can be gleaned. I may have missed it, but I don't think we have anymore info.

rms2
01-04-2014, 02:48 PM
Interesting that the Loschbour male was homozygous for all the MC1R stuff tested, so he had zero chance of having red hair (as did the Stuttgart female likewise). I know Loschbour is just one single individual, but one would think that hunter-gatherers would show more Neanderthal admixture than modern Europeans. If red hair is something we inherited from the Neanderthal, as some have speculated, then one might expect at least one heterozygous MC1R result for Loschbour, yet he was homozygous on all of the ones that were tested.

I did not see anything in the supplementary stuff on hair color for the Motala remains. Did I miss it?

What about MA1?

Jean M
01-04-2014, 03:01 PM
If red hair is something we inherited from the Neanderthal, as some have speculated

Some Neanderthals may have had red hair, but via a different genetic route than modern man. We did not inherit it from them.

rms2
01-04-2014, 03:48 PM
Thanks, Jean. I found the MA-1 report in your library and went through the supplementary data. I see they predicted dark hair and skin for MA-1 but, if I am reading things rightly, did not really get a red hair result (i.e., making it impossible to tell if he was a carrier).

newtoboard
01-04-2014, 03:51 PM
So what possibility is left for red hair if the current studies are leaning towards ruling out Neanderthals, Mesolithic hunters and Neolithic farmers? I bet it is a matter of time before an origin north of the Black Sea is suggested.

rms2
01-04-2014, 03:55 PM
So what possibility is left for red hair if the current studies are leaning towards ruling out Neanderthals, Mesolithic hunters and Neolithic farmers? I bet it is a matter of time before an origin north of the Black Sea is suggested.

It would be interesting if there was a way to gauge the relationship between the proportion of ANE and that of red hair carriers (not necessarily actual redheads) in a population.

Mehrdad
01-04-2014, 04:27 PM
My father in law is I2b1, his family are Irish. One of his direct ancestors came over to the new world in the early 18th century and they've flourished in the South ever since. Anyone have more info on I2b1?

rossa
01-04-2014, 05:30 PM
My father in law is I2b1, his family are Irish. One of his direct ancestors came over to the new world in the early 18th century and they've flourished in the South ever since. Anyone have more info on I2b1?


. . . . . . .

Scarlet Ibis
01-05-2014, 02:54 AM
Red hair discussion posts were moved here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?979-Red-Hair/page7

Croghan
03-06-2014, 09:58 AM
When Genographic recently tested in Mayo, they found 88% R1b and 12% I, R1a.
The Prime Minister (Taoiseach) Enda Kenny, a native of Mayo, results were I.
Genographic attributed the R1a and I to later migrations eg Bronze Age or Viking.
I suspect the I results are closer to the Megalithic Period as some of the oldest and largest Megalithic and Neolithic structures, Carrowmore and Ceide Fields are nearby.


http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/genographic/

1087

Enda Kenny is almost certainly a member of the L161-Isles-C2 clade that includes surname variations of Kenny, Kaney, Geaney, Keaveney and Kavanagh.

Patrick Kavanagh, the Irish poet, is also likely to have descended from the same paternal line; Patrick's grandfather came from Easkey, Co. Sligo.

Roslea Cemetery in Easkey probably holds quite a number of L161 burials: http://www.igp-web.com/igparchives/ire/sligo/photos/tombstones/sligo-roslea-3/index.html

Other closely connected Connacht L161 surnames are Hanley, Feeney, Maxwell, Mitchell and Cox.

The other "hot-spot" for L161 in Connacht is area in Co Roscommon radiating from out from Rathcroghan and this is likely to be where L161 were originally clustered. Rathcroghan was an ancient settlement mentioned in Irish folklore, including The Tain or "the Cattle Raid on Cooley". What is totally ignored in the historical narrative is the man made earthen Iron Age fortification called The Doon at Drumsna, Co Leitrim which controlled access to Connacht as it was one of only two fording points on the river Shannon in summertime along it's entire length of 200 miles; the other fording point was in Athlone. L161 survived to the west of Drumsna in some numbers, possibly as high as 7% of the male population.

rossa
03-06-2014, 04:25 PM
Enda Kenny is almost certainly a member of the L161-Isles-C2 clade that includes surname variations of Kenny, Kaney, Geaney, Keaveney and Kavanagh.

Patrick Kavanagh, the Irish poet, is also likely to have descended from the same paternal line; Patrick's grandfather came from Easkey, Co. Sligo.

Roslea Cemetery in Easkey probably holds quite a number of L161 burials: http://www.igp-web.com/igparchives/ire/sligo/photos/tombstones/sligo-roslea-3/index.html

Other closely connected Connacht L161 surnames are Hanley, Feeney, Maxwell, Mitchell and Cox.

The other "hot-spot" for L161 in Connacht is area in Co Roscommon radiating from out from Rathcroghan and this is likely to be where L161 were originally clustered. Rathcroghan was an ancient settlement mentioned in Irish folklore, including The Tain or "the Cattle Raid on Cooley". What is totally ignored in the historical narrative is the man made earthen Iron Age fortification called The Doon at Drumsna, Co Leitrim which controlled access to Connacht as it was one of only two fording points on the river Shannon in summertime along it's entire length of 200 miles; the other fording point was in Athlone. L161 survived to the west of Drumsna in some numbers, possibly as high as 7% of the male population.

Is this based on a study?

alan
03-06-2014, 11:00 PM
I recall seeing maps showing I stronger in the west of Ireland which suggests to me an early strata and nothing to do with Vikings.

rossa
03-07-2014, 12:01 AM
I wonder if L161 in a parts of Connacht may be related to M222 movements, isn't there also an M222 hotpsot around Rathcroghan?

Croghan
03-07-2014, 10:52 AM
Is this based on a study?

Yes. A Y Chromosome Census of the British Isles by Capelli et al: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/capelli-CB-03.pdf

On the sampling matrix map Castlerea (17) is incorrectly pinpointed as being in Co. Offaly; a line drawn as an extension of the line from points 8-10 on the matrix intersecting with a line from point 17 on the map parallel to the north-south axis of the matrix will give a close approximation as to where Castlerea is actually located. Castlerea is on the western fringes of the Rathcroghan plain of central Roscommon. The study finds that excluding I1b2 (2%) that there is a 7% presence of other forms of Haplogroup I in Castlerea and no R1a is detected.

The Keaveney DNA Project has a L161 Kenney member: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/keaveney/default.aspx?section=yresults

Declan Ganley, Libertas etc.., is known to be L161 as are many Hanleys.

Vincent Hanley, Irelands first notable AIDS victim, was most likely L161, and Haplogroup I have a known susceptability.

rossa
03-07-2014, 07:31 PM
I thought you meant there were amounts of 7% found around Athlone.
Other surnames that are supposed to have signifigant levels are O'Driscoll and O'Grady. I remember when the semargyl website showed surnames, I had a look at some O'Driscolls and their colsest matches had English looking surnames.
Are the closest str matches other Irish people for those you mentioned above?

alan
03-07-2014, 08:02 PM
Is there any handy summary on I in Ireland? I must admit the whole M222 thing kind of bores me as it only really tells us about the last 2000 years of Ireland's 10000 year long human settlement.

rossa
03-07-2014, 08:26 PM
Is there any handy summary on I in Ireland? I must admit the whole M222 thing kind of bores me as it only really tells us about the last 2000 years of Ireland's 10000 year long human settlement.

The reason I brought up M222 is that some I haplogroups may have come around the same time from Scotland (such as M284 and possible L161), and with L161 and M222 being found in the same area it may indicate an arrival together and a high number due to being part of an elite group.
I think some of the I-M223 groups (like the various ones named continentals) may be hard to nail down and might require some info on str matches as they really could have arrived anytime from 5,000 years ago to the time of the Normans.
M284 could be linked to the Cruithin as it is regularly noted and L126 seems to have been brought over mainly in the plantation or very close to it.
I also recall seeing one of Eupedia's maps shwoing Mayo with an elevated number of an I1 clade.

Croghan
03-09-2014, 11:14 PM
I thought you meant there were amounts of 7% found around Athlone.
Other surnames that are supposed to have signifigant levels are O'Driscoll and O'Grady. I remember when the semargyl website showed surnames, I had a look at some O'Driscolls and their colsest matches had English looking surnames.
Are the closest str matches other Irish people for those you mentioned above?

L161 is currently subdivided into 4 clades A, B, C, D as determined by Ken Nordvedt.

On a MRCA basis the age profile oldest to youngest is B, C, D A.

Clade A is supposed to be a recent (circa 1,100 years) descendant of a B ancestor but this may be revised when FTDNA BIG Y and anonymous Chromo2 results are analysed. The O'Driscolls are presumed to be Corca Laidhe but the likelihood is that L161 O'Driscolls are not of this lineage and indeed their nearest matches would seem to be English like Lee, Kinley and Adkins -although this may be a Cork link.

The O'Grady's are classified as L161-D2, very few have tested and they are thought to be closely related. O'Grady was originally an East Clare family that moved to Limerick, JP MacManus currently owns the family seat ay Killballyowen.

For Clades C and D most matches are Irish and based in mainly Roscommon, Sligo, Donegal, Derry, Leitrim, Longford, Galway and Clare with a few outlying clade D in Tipperary. There seems to be a penetration into north Kerry also. The river Shannon seems to be a common factor in the counties with the highest L161 penetration being to the west.

gravetti
04-25-2014, 09:42 AM
More ancient Scandinavians (Skoglund, Malmström et al. 2014)

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/04/more-ancient-scandinavians-skoglund.html

Mesolithic Swedish hunter gatherers
StoraFörvar11 aka SfF11(Male), 7,500-7,250 cal. B.P, Stora Karlso Sweden : mtDNA=U5a1

6,873 ± 119 BC, Stora Karlso Sweden : mtDNA=U4b1

Motala1(Female), 6,000BC Motala Sweden: mtDNA=U5a1

Motala2(Male), 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I PF3742+, I L41+, I1 S108-, I1 L845-, I1 M253-, I2a1b CT1293-, I2a2 L37-), mtDNA=U2e1

Motala3(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1b*(I M258+, I PF3742+, I2 L68+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U5a1

Motala4(Female) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: mtDNA=U5a2d

Motala6(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=? (Q1 L232- Q1a2a L55+), mtDNA=U5a2d

Motala9(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I1 P40-), mtDNA=U5a2

Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitted_Ware_culture

Neolithic Swedish hunter gatherers of the Pitted Ware culture

Ajv52A(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=V

Ajv59(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U

Ajv53(Female), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ajv58(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1-P37.2, mtDNA=U4d

Ajv70(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ire8(Male), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ajv13(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ajv52b(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ajv66(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ajv54(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5

Ajv36(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5

Ajv5(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5a

Ajv29a(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5a

Fir15(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U4

Fir22(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U4

Fir4(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U5

Fir27(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U5a

Ire6b(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=T2b

Ire9(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ire3(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4



Neolithic Swedish Farmers of the TRB culture, Frälsegården, Gokhem Sweden


Gökhem4(Male), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H

Gökhem2(Female), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H1c

Gökhem7(Female), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H24

Gökhem5(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=K1e

Ste7(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=T2b

Ste7(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=J

alan
04-25-2014, 11:34 AM
Seems consistent with previous findings. It would be nice to get more Neolithic y DNA from that area just to see what the pattern of male vs female migration was associated with the arrival of farming. It would be very interesting too to see what y and mt lineages might be linked to the ANE element among Scandinavian hunters. I suppose if its just a small component it might take a lot of samples to actually hit on any unusual non-recombining lineages that could be responsible for the ANE component which might have penetrated the area around or just before the Mesolithic.

rms2
04-25-2014, 11:53 AM
. . .

Ajv58(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1-P37.2 . . .


What's the source for that one? I apologize for missing it.

Update: Never mind. I see it.

Jean M
04-25-2014, 11:56 AM
More ancient Scandinavians (Skoglund, Malmström et al. 2014)

As far as I can tell after a quick look, this material was all available already, from Skoglund's dissertation last year, and/or from Lazarides 2013. I'm going over it in more detail now.

rms2
04-25-2014, 12:19 PM
As far as I can tell after a quick look, this material was all available already, from Skoglund's dissertation last year, and/or from Lazarides 2013. I'm going over it in more detail now.

The ones I did not know about were Motala6 and the y-dna result Ajv58.

alan
04-25-2014, 03:01 PM
Its of frustrating that there is nothing coming out of Britain and Ireland in terms of ancient prehistoric DNA. We usually (its actually been a nice week or two) have such an superabundant supply of bad weather to make ancient DNA preservation more likely :0(

alan
04-25-2014, 04:01 PM
Its interesting that on Dienekes it is commented that evidence of absorbtion of hunters by farmers in northern Europe is increasing. I suspect that the final wave of farming that passed into the North and Baltic Sea areas and the isles around 4000BC give or take may have ultimately (even if not immediately) led to a lot of absorbtion of Mesolithic genes. This IMO may well not show up in the first generations of settlers who may have remained aloof from the hunters but rather is slightly later remains.

The only question for me is how long was it before they mixed. Now considering Irish evidence, there is no doubt that cremation, a form of burial used before the arrived was being used within a couple of centuries of the arrival of farming. This has been found in the local court tombs, a type of tomb shape that has close parallels in farmers in Britain and which may ultimately have been based on Neolithic house types of an earlier era. Cremation is rare in early Neolithic Britain and the continent. So, I believe that the adoption of the cremation ritual might have owed something to the Mesolithic substrate and its incorporation into the obviously Neolithic farmer associated megalithic tombs might represent some sort of blending of traditions. One possible theory might be that they mixed once the Neolithic farmers hid the skids with deteriorating climate after a couple of centuries. It is noticeable that around then they abandoned their preconcieved rectangular house traditions too.

The archaeological evidence of the mixing of the two populations is otherwise problematic. Radiocarbon is not precise enough to detect a generation or so of overlap between Neolithic and Mesolithic cultures. Recently a study of radiocarbon dates suggests the arrival of farmers at detectable levels c. 3850BC in Ireland and few if any Mesolithic sites conclusively post-date that date. However, dateable closed context Mesolithic sites are much more rarely found than Neolithic sites. There are several sites dating to the interface period. It seems more likely that ancient DNA will solve this than archaeology. A chapter in the publication I link to below is interesting in that it discusses the dated Mesolithic Irish human remains and once from the Mesolithic-Neolithic interface. Its not an impressive amount but it does show at least some pre-farming Irish material exists that might perhaps be DNA tested.

http://www.academia.edu/3483992/Radiocarbon_dating_of_Mesolithic_human_remains_in_ Ireland

GTC
04-25-2014, 04:10 PM
Its of frustrating that there is nothing coming out of Britain and Ireland in terms of ancient prehistoric DNA. We usually (its actually been a nice week or two) have such an superabundant supply of bad weather to make ancient DNA preservation more likely :0(

They found the flints years ago, but where are the bones?

http://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/features/howburn-farm-excavating-scotlands-first-people.htm

Jean M
04-25-2014, 06:18 PM
The ones I did not know about were Motala6 and the y-dna result Ajv58.

I've now worked out that there are several new mtDNA results and one new certain y-dna result - the Ajv58 that you picked out.

By the way - Razib Khan comments on the news: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/plows-of-the-gods/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=plows-of-the-gods

ADW_1981
04-26-2014, 03:13 AM
I've now worked out that there are several new mtDNA results and one new certain y-dna result - the Ajv58 that you picked out.

By the way - Razib Khan comments on the news: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/plows-of-the-gods/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=plows-of-the-gods

He's I2a. Either the M423, M26 results were negative or yielded no result. This is consistent with YDNA I2, and I - sweeping across Europe from a east to west direction during the Mesolithic era.

I'm disappointed that we still don't have YDNA of TRB.

What's interesting is that both I1 (possibly didn't exist in Mesolithic) and I2-M223 are more common in northern Germany and Scandinavia and haven't turned up in ancient DNA results yet. I suspect in both cases, these groups spread west in more recent times with Anglo-Saxons and or other Germanic tribes and have similar roots in hunter gatherer northern Europe. What type of migratory event could have caused I1 to supplant the I2 folks, seemingly independent of R1a or R1b, since neither group has a founder effect in Finland for instance.

pyromatic
04-26-2014, 01:32 PM
He's I2a. Either the M423, M26 results were negative or yielded no result. This is consistent with YDNA I2, and I - sweeping across Europe from a east to west direction during the Mesolithic era.

I'm disappointed that we still don't have YDNA of TRB.

What's interesting is that both I1 (possibly didn't exist in Mesolithic) and I2-M223 are more common in northern Germany and Scandinavia and haven't turned up in ancient DNA results yet. I suspect in both cases, these groups spread west in more recent times with Anglo-Saxons and or other Germanic tribes and have similar roots in hunter gatherer northern Europe. What type of migratory event could have caused I1 to supplant the I2 folks, seemingly independent of R1a or R1b, since neither group has a founder effect in Finland for instance.

On page 46 of the supplementary material (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2014/04/23/science.1253448.DC1/Skoglund.SM.pdf), you can see what SNPs they tested. No SNPs downstreamof P37.2 are listed, though no SNPs in the list are given as questionable to no read. I'd bet Ajvide58 belongs to the same extinct line to which Loschbour and Motala samples belong and which is parallel to the modern L1224 branch leading to the Dinarics and Isles branches.

parasar
05-10-2014, 07:30 PM
Per Genetiker:

The K12b Gedrosia component is completely absent in both the hunter-gatherers of the Pitted Ware culture and the farmers of the Funnelbeaker culture...

Ajvide 52
hunter-gatherer
Pitted Ware culture
Gotland
4,900–4,600 BP
K12b
•63.14% North_European
•25.24% Atlantic_Med
•5.98% Sub_Saharan
•4.28% Siberian
•1.35% Southeast_Asian
•0.01% South_Asian
•0.00% Caucasus
•0.00% East_African
•0.00% East_Asian
•0.00% Gedrosia
•0.00% Northwest_African
•0.00% Southwest_Asian
...

Ajvide 53
hunter-gatherer
Pitted Ware culture
Gotland
4,900–4,600 BP
K12b
•70.15% North_European
•26.87% Atlantic_Med
•1.47% Siberian
•1.34% South_Asian
•0.16% Sub_Saharan
•0.00% Caucasus
•0.00% East_African
•0.00% East_Asian
•0.00% Gedrosia
•0.00% Northwest_African
•0.00% Southeast_Asian
•0.00% Southwest_Asian
...

Ajvide 59
hunter-gatherer
Pitted Ware culture
Gotland
4,900–4,600 BP
K12b
•89.92% North_European
•7.50% Sub_Saharan
•1.56% East_African
•0.99% Northwest_African
•0.02% Southeast_Asian
•0.01% Atlantic_Med
•0.00% Caucasus
•0.00% East_Asian
•0.00% Gedrosia
•0.00% Siberian
•0.00% South_Asian
•0.00% Southwest_Asian
...

Ajvide 70
hunter-gatherer
Pitted Ware culture
Gotland
4,900–4,600 BP
K12b
•67.36% North_European
•24.55% Atlantic_Med
•4.46% Sub_Saharan
•2.60% Siberian
•1.02% Southeast_Asian
•0.01% East_Asian
•0.00% Caucasus
•0.00% East_African
•0.00% Gedrosia
•0.00% Northwest_African
•0.00% South_Asian
•0.00% Southwest_Asian
...

Ire 8
hunter-gatherer
Pitted Ware culture
Gotland
5,100–4,150 BP
K12b
•69.89% North_European
•20.20% Atlantic_Med
•3.90% East_African
•3.38% Sub_Saharan
•1.30% Southeast_Asian
•1.29% East_Asian
•0.05% Northwest_African
•0.00% Caucasus
•0.00% Gedrosia
•0.00% Siberian
•0.00% South_Asian
•0.00% Southwest_Asian
...

Gökhem 5
farmer
Funnelbeaker culture
Västergötland
5,280–4,890 BP
K12b
•55.66% Atlantic_Med
•13.82% Caucasus
•10.40% Southwest_Asian
•8.56% North_European
•5.58% Siberian
•3.00% Sub_Saharan
•1.97% Northwest_African
•0.64% East_Asian
•0.37% South_Asian
•0.00% East_African
•0.00% Gedrosia
•0.00% Southeast_Asian
...

Gökhem 7
farmer
Funnelbeaker culture
Västergötland
5,050–4,750 BP
K12b
•64.16% Atlantic_Med
•15.67% North_European
•5.45% East_African
•4.78% Northwest_African
•4.11% Siberian
•3.09% Caucasus
•2.00% South_Asian
•0.74% Sub_Saharan
•0.00% East_Asian
•0.00% Gedrosia
•0.00% Southeast_Asian
•0.00% Southwest_Asian
...

Gökhem 2
5,050 to 4,750 years ago
K12b
•55.74% Atlantic_Med
•18.59% North_European
•9.33% Caucasus
•5.99% Southwest_Asian
•4.93% Northwest_African
•3.64% Sub_Saharan
•1.06% Southeast_Asian
•0.64% East_Asian
•0.05% South_Asian
•0.03% Siberian
•0.01% East_African
•0.00% Gedrosia
...

Ajvide 58
4,900 to 4,600 years ago
K12b
•63.80% North_European
•28.75% Atlantic_Med
•4.11% Sub_Saharan
•2.69% Siberian
•0.64% Southeast_Asian
•0.01% East_African
•0.01% South_Asian
•0.00% Caucasus
•0.00% East_Asian
•0.00% Gedrosia
•0.00% Northwest_African
•0.00% Southwest_Asian
...

Stora Förvar 11
7,500 to 7,250 years ago
K12b
•68.03% North_European
•24.32% Atlantic_Med
•3.41% Sub_Saharan
•3.23% Siberian
•0.79% South_Asian
•0.16% Southeast_Asian
•0.05% East_African
•0.00% Caucasus
•0.00% East_Asian
•0.00% Gedrosia
•0.00% Northwest_African
•0.00% Southwest_Asian
•0.00% West_Asian
...

La Braña 1 genome
K12b
•59.99% North_European
•30.12% Atlantic_Med
•4.11% Southeast_Asian
•3.59% Sub_Saharan
•2.12% South_Asian
•0.06% East_Asian
•0.01% Siberian
•0.00% Caucasus
•0.00% East_African
•0.00% Gedrosia
•0.00% Northwest_African
•0.00% Southwest_Asian
...

Mal’ta MA1
24000ybp
K12b
•44.27% North_European
•24.73% Gedrosia
•15.50% South_Asian
•13.76% Siberian
•1.73% Sub_Saharan
•0.01% East_African
•0.00% Atlantic_Med
•0.00% Caucasus
•0.00% East_Asian
•0.00% Northwest_African
•0.00% Southeast_Asian
•0.00% Southwest_Asian
...

Afontova Gora AG2
K12b
•61.18% North_European
•20.28% Gedrosia
•11.36% Siberian
•6.12% South_Asian
•0.84% Sub_Saharan
•0.22% Atlantic_Med
•0.00% Caucasus
•0.00% East_African
•0.00% East_Asian
•0.00% Northwest_African
•0.00% Southeast_Asian
•0.00% Southwest_Asian
...

http://genetiker.wordpress.com/
FWIW, Genetiker associates Gedrosia with Y-P and derivatives.

parasar
05-20-2014, 04:31 PM
Genetiker has attempted to glean the Y of the Swede samples.


The Y-SNP calls in my last post implied that Stora Förvar 11 was O3a1a. But notice that Ajvide 58 also had a positive call for O3a1a-DYS257_2/P27.2_2, and Ajvide 58 definitely wasn’t O3a1a ...
But I didn’t find any mistakes for F2-M427, so maybe Ajvide 70 really was F2. It might be that F2 originated in the Veddoids of India, and then ended up in both the Caucasoids of Europe and the Mongoloids of East Asia, just as C1a did. If that is what happened, then F2 must have died out in Europe, because it hasn’t been found in modern European populations ...

The calls for Ajvide 59 don’t tell us which haplogroup he belonged to, but they do tell us that he didn’t belong to P, Q, or R.

The calls for Gökhem 4 tell us that he belonged to I2, but not to I2a1a or I2a2a.

The calls for Ire 8 tell us that he belonged to F, but not to P, Q, or R. He was probably I or I2.

The calls for Stora Förvar 11 imply that he was O3a1a, but I think that’s extremely unlikely, considering the fact that O3a1a is only found in the Mongoloids of East and Southeast Asia. The analyses of the Stora Förvar 11 genome didn’t show any significant amounts of Mongoloid admixture. The calls imply that Stora Förvar 11 wasn’t P, Q, or R. He was probably I or I2.

The calls for Ajvide 52 tell us that he was I2a2a1.

The calls for Ajvide 70 imply that he was F2, but I think that is also extremely unlikely. F2 is found in the Mongoloid Lahu people of China, and Ajvide 70 didn’t show any significant amounts of Mongoloid admixture. But the calls do show that he wasn’t I, P, Q, or R, so it’s not clear what he was. He might have been F*.

The calls for Ajvide 58 confirm the published finding that he was I2a1, and they also show that he was not I2a1a, I2a1b, I2a1d, or I2a1e.

http://genetiker.wordpress.com/

gravetti
05-21-2014, 09:50 AM
Important new SNPs for Dinarics

http://i2aproject.blogspot.se/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.html

gravetti
08-03-2014, 04:04 PM
"And here is his tree from February 2014 showing the possible position of the extinct Loschbour etc line."

It looks like a parallel haplogroup to the modern I2a1b.Why?I am not convinced at all abouth that .There is lots of L178+,M423+,P37.2,M438+,L68+,M170+"Dinarics".I think there is mutch more to investigate.

"The lineage that led to I1 is as old as that which led to I2. I1 has a much later expansion than I2.

The difference seems to be that the I1 lineage was not an early adopter of farming."

Farming?Why should I2 adopt farming?Because the modern model?

Jean M
08-03-2014, 04:23 PM
Farming? Why should I2 adopt farming?

I am deducing that I2 adopted farming from the fact that there is a burst of subclades (indicating a population expansion) in I2 in the Neolithic. We also have two examples of I2a1 have been found in the DNA of Neolithic farmers. We also have I2a1a (M26) a a founder lineage in Sardinia, settled in the Neolithic. See The Story of Y-DNA Haplogroup I: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/haplogroupi.shtml

Foragers who didn't take up farming simply could not compete with farmers in most of Europe, where farmers could outbreed them easily. So most of the Mesolithic Y-DNA lineages just died out. There are two obvious regions where this was not the case: the northeast and parts of the southeast (Middle Danube and Dnieper-Donets.)

pyromatic
08-03-2014, 07:55 PM
"And here is his tree from February 2014 showing the possible position of the extinct Loschbour etc line."

It looks like a parallel haplogroup to the modern I2a1b.Why?I am not convinced at all abouth that .There is lots of L178+,M423+,P37.2,M438+,L68+,M170+"Dinarics".I think there is mutch more to investigate.

"The lineage that led to I1 is as old as that which led to I2. I1 has a much later expansion than I2.

The difference seems to be that the I1 lineage was not an early adopter of farming."

Farming?Why should I2 adopt farming?Because the modern model?

The line to Loschbour and Motala is parallel to the line that would become the modern Dinarics, Isles, etc because the Loschbour and Motala samples are L1224- CTS8486- CTS5375- CTS1802- and CTS11030- whereas the extant, modern lines are L1224+ CTS8486+ CTS5375+ CTS1802+ and CTS11030+. Or more simply put, the ancient samples broke the phyloequivalence of the 10+ SNPs listed as defining the modern I2-M423 branch (I2a1b in ISOGG as of 8/2014). Their position parallel to the modern line seems rather well-established.

gravetti
08-04-2014, 07:04 AM
The line to Loschbour and Motala is parallel to the line that would become the modern Dinarics, Isles, etc because the Loschbour and Motala samples are L1224- CTS8486- CTS5375- CTS1802- and CTS11030- whereas the extant, modern lines are L1224+ CTS8486+ CTS5375+ CTS1802+ and CTS11030+. Or more simply put, the ancient samples broke the phyloequivalence of the 10+ SNPs listed as defining the modern I2-M423 branch (I2a1b in ISOGG as of 8/2014). Their position parallel to the modern line seems rather well-established.

Thanks!Hopfully,future researche will find the ancestor line of modern I2-M423 branch in Scandinavia.

rokousa
08-04-2014, 04:57 PM
So most of the Mesolithic Y-DNA lineages just died out. There are two obvious regions where this was not the case: the northeast and parts of the southeast (Middle Danube and Dnieper-Donets.)

Y IN CZECHS
I-M170 age 4.58 - 2.30ky
I1-M253 age 2.03 - 1.25ky
I2a-P37 age 1.94 - 1.17ky
I2b1-M22 age 2.38 - 1.47ky

It seems that in the Danube Area, I2 came yesterday.
Luca 2006-Y-Chromosomal Variation in the Czech Republic

Jean M
08-04-2014, 07:32 PM
It seems that in the Danube Area, I2 came yesterday.

Those figures are not the age. If you look down the table you will find the age given in generations. For example 534 generations for I-M170. If we take 30 years per generation, that would be about 16,000 years ago. In the text they say "Hg I-M170 as a whole emerges as the oldest, in line with its presence during or soon after the LGM (Rootsi et al., 2004)." (LGM = Last Glacial Maximum).

But I wouldn't pay much attention anyway. They are assuming continuity of population, which is always a mistake, and this is an old paper. Things will get clearer when we have more ancient DNA from the Balkans.

Croghan
10-23-2014, 08:52 AM
When Genographic recently tested in Mayo, they found 88% R1b and 12% I, R1a.
The Prime Minister (Taoiseach) Enda Kenny, a native of Mayo, results were I.
Genographic attributed the R1a and I to later migrations eg Bronze Age or Viking.
I suspect the I results are closer to the Megalithic Period as some of the oldest and largest Megalithic and Neolithic structures, Carrowmore and Ceide Fields are nearby.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/genographic/

1087

At the Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2014 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHnW2NAfPIA2KUipZ_PlUlw) Conference in Dublin last week, Spencer Wells announced that Enda Kenny is I-M223-CTS616.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/M223-Y-Clan/default.aspx?section=yresults

I make the assumption that Mr Kenney is L1193>Y5996; Grogan and Kilcoyne would be surnames from the vicinity of Mr Kenny's ancestral abode in Islandeady, Co Mayo but the existence of a McKinney, Griffin and Lane in Roots Group 2a1 gives pause for thought but I think is much less likely.

I had previously expressed an opinion on this forum that Mr Kenny was more likely to be I-L161-Isles.

gravetti
10-24-2014, 08:44 AM
Y IN CZECHS
I-M170 age 4.58 - 2.30ky
I1-M253 age 2.03 - 1.25ky
I2a-P37 age 1.94 - 1.17ky
I2b1-M22 age 2.38 - 1.47ky

It seems that in the Danube Area, I2 came yesterday.
Luca 2006-Y-Chromosomal Variation in the Czech Republic

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/full/ncomms6257.html

Hando
01-07-2015, 05:06 PM
Genetiker has attempted to glean the Y of the Swede samples.


http://genetiker.wordpress.com/

How is it possible that ancient Scandinavian farmers such as Gokhem 4 is I2 and Ajvide 58 is I2a1? According to Razhib Khan's Plows of the Gods, "With the large genetic distance, as well as the fact that the hunter-gatherers exhibited minimal gene flow from the farmers, and, likely a very salient physical difference, it seems plausible that we have the ingredients for inter-group conflict or at least an uneasy coexistence." He also says the F st between Gokhem farmers and Ajvide hunter gatherers was on the order of 0.05. So how can such different groups share the same I2 haplogroup?
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/plows-of-the-gods/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=plows-of-the-gods

genetiker
08-16-2015, 06:48 AM
I have reanalyzed the Y-SNPs of seven samples from Stone Age Sweden.

Stora Förvar 11, the Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from 7,500 years ago, belonged to I1 or pre-I1.

More Y-SNP calls from Stone Age Sweden (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/08/16/more-y-snp-calls-from-stone-age-sweden/)

Krefter
08-16-2015, 07:19 AM
I have reanalyzed the Y-SNPs of seven samples from Stone Age Sweden.

Stora Förvar 11, the Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from 7,500 years ago, belonged to I1 or pre-I1.

More Y-SNP calls from Stone Age Sweden (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/08/16/more-y-snp-calls-from-stone-age-sweden/)

Wow, awesome job geneticker!!!! I don't know why no one else looks like SNPs like you do:noidea:. So far I1 has been found in Neolithic Hungary, Mesolithic Sweden, and Late Neolithic/Bronze age Sweden/Denmark. The one from Hungary may have also been pre-I1(Uncle to modern I1 not father), while the Late Neolithic/Bronze age ones were certainly direct ancestors of modern I1.

EDIT: You make a good point about R1b. J2, E1b-M78, and I1 are three lineages we never expected to see in Neolithic/Mesolithic Europe. So, why couldn't the ancestor of R1b-L11 be there? I dis agree but don't deny we don't have enough Y DNA samples to say it's fact R1b-L11 is from East Europe.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-16-2015, 07:55 AM
I have reanalyzed the Y-SNPs of seven samples from Stone Age Sweden.

Stora Förvar 11, the Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from 7,500 years ago, belonged to I1 or pre-I1.

More Y-SNP calls from Stone Age Sweden (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/08/16/more-y-snp-calls-from-stone-age-sweden/)

Well done on your efforts. But one might question your conclusions . Even if that SF sample was indeed I1, the fact remains that all other SHG samples are I2. Thus, by the EBA, there was a significant replacement from I2 to R1a, R1b and I1. The latter still possbly came from the Carpathian basin, even if earlier "pre-I1" existed in scandinavia.

Just a thought, not really a massive critique

Krefter
08-16-2015, 08:00 AM
Well done on your efforts. But one might question your conclusions . Even if that SF sample was indeed I1, the fact remains that all other SHG samples are I2. Thus, by the EBA, there was a significant replacement from I2 to R1a, R1b and I1. The latter still possbly came from the Carpathian basin, even if earlier "pre-I1" existed in scandinavia.

Just a thought, not really a massive critique

Sf11 is an uncle not a father to modern I1.

smirnov
08-26-2015, 03:16 AM
And what are the thoughts of movement(migration) of ancient I1, pre I1 and when and where it split from M170?