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Aspar
06-28-2019, 02:29 PM
Obviously not linguistically but looking at various PCA's and maps and even haplogroup distribution, there is little to none difference between Macedonians from North Macedonia and those from Greek Macedonia, or better yet, there is a clear genetic cline that runs north-south without any genetic walls or major differences between both populations.

I have used the PCA made by ph2ter using Eurogenes K15 coordinates, showing that there is a clear Macedonian cluster where Macedonians from both N.Macedonia and Greek Macedonia plot together and no Bulgarian or other Greeks fall in this cluster, except a few maybe:

https://i.postimg.cc/zvw1HgZk/aaaa.png (https://postimg.cc/H8LNfjLJ)

Even if we go by y-dna markers, there is even greater similarity.
Going by the several studies done on the respective populations y-dna, there is a great overlap.
The overall statistics for this studies as shown by the Eupedia site is the following:

https://i.postimg.cc/cLvTCNND/y-dna4.png (https://postimages.org/)

The only major difference might be the ratio of I2a/R1a where I2a is a bit higher in North Macedonia while R1a is a bit higher in North Greece.

I also imagine that there are significant differences among the Macedonians from North Macedonia where some, especially from the Northern half of the country are significantly separated and fall in entirely different cluster, together with the North-Western Bulgarians and the Southern Serbs.

At the end, I've tried modeling myself using both scaled and unscaled Global25 coordinates:

[1] "distance%=1.5836"

Aspar

BGR_IA,47.4
HUN_Avar_Szolad,30.2
Anatolia_IA,16.4
CZE_Early_Slav,6

[1] "distance%=2.4118"

Aspar_scaled

BGR_IA,52.6
HUN_Avar_Szolad,19.2
CZE_Early_Slav,17.4
Anatolia_IA,8.2
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,2.6


In both cases BGR_IA is much more preferred than Empuries_2 is however there is a clear difference when it comes to Anatolia_IA sample which percentage is doubled when using unscaled rather than scaled coordinates.
As such, I find the scaled coordinates as a better fit for myself!

Now, trying to model GREEKGRALPOP17, a northern Greek:

[1] "distance%=2.807"

Greek:GREEKGRALPOP17

BGR_IA,51.2
CZE_Early_Slav,17
HUN_Avar_Szolad,17
Anatolia_IA,9.8
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,5


Now a Macedonian from the south-west of N.Macedonia:

[1] "distance%=2.1941"

Macedonian:Macedonian8

BGR_IA,35.4
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,23.2
HUN_Avar_Szolad,19.6
CZE_Early_Slav,16
Anatolia_IA,5.8

And another Greek:

[1] "distance%=2.2715"

Greek:GREEKGRALPOP8

BGR_IA,30.2
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,24.6
HUN_Avar_Szolad,18.6
CZE_Early_Slav,17.4
Anatolia_IA,9.2

Going by the PCA sent by Davidski, GREEKGRALPOP17 is most probably from the Eastern part of Greek Macedonia or Western Thrace and he clearly prefers BGR_IA over Empuries2 as I do who am from the south-east of N.Macedonia.
While Macedonian8 and GREEKGRALPOP8 who is most likely from Western Macedonia in Greece also prefer big deal of Empuries2!

Dorkymon
06-28-2019, 02:40 PM
The short answer is no.
Everyone in Southeast Europe is a mix of local Thracian/Mycaenean-like people and Slavs. For example, Northern Bulgarians overlap with Southern Romanians to the extent that they could be considered one people genetically. At the end of the day, the most important aspect is the language and identity. So in that aspect, North Macedonians and Greek Macedonians are quite different.

Sikeliot
06-28-2019, 02:44 PM
The short answer is no.
Everyone in Southeast Europe is a mix of local Thracian/Mycaenean-like people and Slavs. For example, Northern Bulgarians overlap with Southern Romanians to the extent that they could be considered one people genetically. At the end of the day, the most important aspect is the language and identity. So in that aspect, North Macedonians and Greek Macedonians are quite different.

The way you worded this is a bit confusing so I will actually amend it a bit to reflect what I think is the most accurate scenario:

Greek Macedonians and "Slavic" Macedonians are genetically related in that both are a mixture of indigenous south Balkan peoples (Mycenaean-like, if you will) and Slavs, but the amount of each differs. Slavic-speaking Macedonians of course have more Slavic ancestry than do Greeks, but the difference is not as large as one may believe and in fact, Greek Macedonians are autosomally much closer to Slavic Macedonians than they are to Sicilians or Cretans.

Aspar
06-28-2019, 02:44 PM
The short answer is no.
Everyone in Southeast Europe is a mix of local Thracian/Mycaenean-like people and Slavs. For example, Northern Bulgarians overlap with Southern Romanians to the extent that they could be considered one people genetically. At the end of the day, the most important aspect is the language and identity. So in that aspect, North Macedonians and Greek Macedonians are quite different.

Obviously I am using arguments from genetic aspect rather than linguistic and no, if that was the case than we would of had chaotic clusters without any clear difference but that's not the case because many Macedonians from both sides of the border cluster together.

Sikeliot
06-28-2019, 02:49 PM
If you look at the plot, some of the Greek Macedonians plot so far shifted toward Slavs that even Italians from Marche plot significantly south of them (you see them in another cluster on the right of the plot). The plot would have to extend far upward to even see Sicilians, Cretans, Calabrians and the Dodecanese, though we do see some people from Chios, Apulia, and Mani/Laconia appearing in that transitional zone between mainland and island Greek.

Aspar
06-28-2019, 03:25 PM
The way you worded this is a bit confusing so I will actually amend it a bit to reflect what I think is the most accurate scenario:

Greek Macedonians and "Slavic" Macedonians are genetically related in that both are a mixture of indigenous south Balkan peoples (Mycenaean-like, if you will) and Slavs, but the amount of each differs. Slavic-speaking Macedonians of course have more Slavic ancestry than do Greeks, but the difference is not as large as one may believe and in fact, Greek Macedonians are autosomally much closer to Slavic Macedonians than they are to Sicilians or Cretans.

I partially agree with you but I will take the freedom to add that the "indigenous south Balkan peoples" were also to great degree "BGR_IA" like and if we go by various PCA's and admixture results we can observe that "BGR_IA" was a bit different than the Mycenaeans as it had more "WHG" like component so we can't take the Sicilians and the Cretans as a starting point who must have little to none "BGR_IA" like ancestry.

BGR_IA was very similar to modern central Italians but a little bit more "Sardinian" EEF shifted!

Sikeliot
06-28-2019, 03:27 PM
I partially agree with you but I will take the freedom to add that the "indigenous south Balkan peoples" were also to great degree "BGR_IA" like and if we go by various PCA's and admixture results we can observe that "BGR_IA" was a bit different than the Mycenaeans as it had more WHG component so we can't take the Sicilians and the Cretans as a starting point who must have little to none "BGR_IA" like ancestry.

Sicilians and Cretans are outlying in the sense that they're the southernmost extreme for their respective nations (excluding now independent peoples like Cypriots and Maltese) but my point is simply that Greek Macedonians (and to some extent other mainland Greeks) have so much Slavic ancestry that they are closer to Bulgarians than to many of their own countrymen from the islands.

There has often been a desire on these forums to paint Balkan Slavs as not being significantly genetically Slavic, but I don't think this is the case. I think this narrative is pushed because acknowledging that Bulgarians for instance have significant Slavic input means we must acknowledge Greeks do too, and this is something many were unprepared or unwilling to acknowledge.

Aspar
06-28-2019, 03:43 PM
Sicilians and Cretans are outlying in the sense that they're the southernmost extreme for their respective nations (excluding now independent peoples like Cypriots and Maltese) but my point is simply that Greek Macedonians (and to some extent other mainland Greeks) have so much Slavic ancestry that they are closer to Bulgarians than to many of their own countrymen from the islands.

There has often been a desire on these forums to paint Balkan Slavs as not being significantly genetically Slavic, but I don't think this is the case. I think this narrative is pushed because acknowledging that Bulgarians for instance have significant Slavic input means we must acknowledge Greeks do too, and this is something many were unprepared or unwilling to acknowledge.

But we don't know if those from the mainland and those from the islands are derived from the same stock of indigenous Balkan people in the first place and honestly I don't think all of the mainland was Mycenaean like but great amount was BGR_IA like and as I said previously, this sample has more WHG like ancestry which shifts away from the Mycenaeans who are more "Southern"!

And why should the Greek Macedonians be closer to those from the islands than to their neighbors over the border in the first place if they have not only more "Slavic ancestry" from their countrymen from the islands but also different indigenous Balkan elements which they probably share with their neighbors over the border?

Mycenaean like ancestry can only be more relevant for those of the islands and Peloponnese, certainly not for those from Macedonia which had many tribes of Thracian and Illyrian ancestry as well!

eastara
07-01-2019, 12:30 PM
I am not certain that the samples taken from Greek from Macedonia are really with all grandparents going back hundreds of years from that region who actually spoke Greek. Many were new settlers both from Anatolia and parts of Bulgaria and European Turkey, who already managed to mix with the locals. Not mentioning those locals, who actually spoke Macedonian and Bulgarian until 1940s. Everywhere you see Nea in Greek toponymics usually means recent refugees which renamed the previous Slavic and Turkish settlements. The first haplogroup study about Greek Macedonians was paradoxically with samples taken from Nea Nikomedeia, who are very well known as refugees from North Western Anatolia.

Aspar
07-03-2019, 10:41 AM
I am not certain that the samples taken from Greek from Macedonia are really with all grandparents going back hundreds of years from that region who actually spoke Greek. Many were new settlers both from Anatolia and parts of Bulgaria and European Turkey, who already managed to mix with the locals. Not mentioning those locals, who actually spoke Macedonian and Bulgarian until 1940s. Everywhere you see Nea in Greek toponymics usually means recent refugees which renamed the previous Slavic and Turkish settlements. The first haplogroup study about Greek Macedonians was paradoxically with samples taken from Nea Nikomedeia, who are very well known as refugees from North Western Anatolia.

You have a good point, especially if we take into account what kind of demographic changes occurred in Macedonia immediately after the Balkan wars, however there are still people there who are native by all means, who haven't mixed with Anatolians, Pontics and other Greeks.

For example, here is a Gedmatch results of a native from the town of Chalastra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalastra) near Thessaloniki, with all eight of his grandparents coming from Chalastra and going by the surname of Laskaris, which is a match of mine on Gedmatch and who also had GEDCOM before that future was still available on Gedmatch:


Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.63
2 West_Med 20.96
3 North_Atlantic 20.91
4 Baltic 18.56
5 West_Asian 11.43
6 Red_Sea 2.47
7 Oceanian 1.03
8 East_Asian 0.55
9 Amerindian 0.31
10 Siberian 0.16

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 3.63
2 Bulgarian 6.48
3 Romanian 8.59
4 Tuscan 10.15
5 Italian_Abruzzo 10.24
6 Central_Greek 10.32
7 West_Sicilian 11.16
8 East_Sicilian 11.65
9 Serbian 12.71
10 North_Italian 13
11 Ashkenazi 13.72
12 South_Italian 14.43
13 Moldavian 18.65
14 Italian_Jewish 19.97
15 Algerian_Jewish 20.01
16 Sephardic_Jewish 20.31
17 Portuguese 20.57
18 Hungarian 20.91
19 Spanish_Extremadura 21.1
20 Croatian 21.52

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 63.9% Bulgarian + 36.1% West_Sicilian @ 1.85
2 67.4% Greek_Thessaly + 32.6% Bulgarian @ 2.09
3 81% Greek_Thessaly + 19% Serbian @ 2.13
4 73.9% Greek_Thessaly + 26.1% Romanian @ 2.15
5 89.6% Greek_Thessaly + 10.4% East_German @ 2.2
6 88.8% Greek_Thessaly + 11.2% Austrian @ 2.23
7 88.2% Greek_Thessaly + 11.8% Croatian @ 2.25
8 88% Greek_Thessaly + 12% Hungarian @ 2.26
9 70.1% Bulgarian + 29.9% South_Italian @ 2.27
10 91% Greek_Thessaly + 9% South_Polish @ 2.27
11 91.2% Greek_Thessaly + 8.8% Ukrainian @ 2.32
12 86.9% Greek_Thessaly + 13.1% Moldavian @ 2.34
13 92.1% Greek_Thessaly + 7.9% Polish @ 2.35
14 93% Greek_Thessaly + 7% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.36
15 92.7% Greek_Thessaly + 7.3% North_Swedish @ 2.37
16 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% La_Brana-1 @ 2.38
17 91.1% Greek_Thessaly + 8.9% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.38
18 93.5% Greek_Thessaly + 6.5% Estonian @ 2.39
19 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% Swedish @ 2.43
20 93.5% Greek_Thessaly + 6.5% Finnish @ 2.45

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 20.22
2 West_Med 16.62
3 Atlantic 15.87
4 North_Sea 12.45
5 Baltic 11.87
6 West_Asian 11.68
7 Eastern_Euro 7.51
8 Red_Sea 2.8
9 Oceanian 0.87
10 Southeast_Asian 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 4.38
2 Greek_Thessaly 5.14
3 Bulgarian 6.1
4 Tuscan 8.26
5 Romanian 8.3
6 Italian_Abruzzo 8.74
7 Central_Greek 9.42
8 West_Sicilian 10.17
9 East_Sicilian 10.46
10 Ashkenazi 10.6
11 Serbian 11.54
12 North_Italian 11.78
13 South_Italian 12.73
14 Italian_Jewish 16.97
15 Moldavian 17.12
16 Sephardic_Jewish 17.83
17 Algerian_Jewish 18.21
18 Austrian 18.37
19 Portuguese 18.51
20 Spanish_Extremadura 18.75

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85% Greek + 15% West_German @ 1.3
2 88.4% Greek + 11.6% Norwegian @ 1.31
3 89% Greek + 11% West_Norwegian @ 1.36
4 88.4% Greek + 11.6% Swedish @ 1.36
5 88.4% Greek + 11.6% North_Swedish @ 1.49
6 88.1% Greek + 11.9% North_Dutch @ 1.5
7 84.6% Greek + 15.4% East_German @ 1.58
8 85.2% Greek + 14.8% South_Dutch @ 1.62
9 87.6% Greek + 12.4% Southwest_English @ 1.62
10 88.2% Greek + 11.8% Danish @ 1.64
11 88.9% Greek + 11.1% Orcadian @ 1.64
12 87.2% Greek + 12.8% North_German @ 1.69
13 87.9% Greek + 12.1% Southeast_English @ 1.74
14 88.7% Greek + 11.3% West_Scottish @ 1.74
15 88.6% Greek + 11.4% Irish @ 1.77
16 74.1% Greek + 25.9% Serbian @ 1.79
17 83.9% Greek + 16.1% French @ 1.81
18 82.8% Greek + 17.2% Hungarian @ 1.9
19 63.4% Bulgarian + 36.6% West_Sicilian @ 2.06
20 88.5% Greek + 11.5% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.08

Eurogenes K36:


Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 1.76 Pct
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 3.26 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 7.76 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 7.34 Pct
East_Med 14.45 Pct
Eastern_Euro 6.51 Pct
Fennoscandian 0.29 Pct
French 2.17 Pct
Iberian 10.79 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 15.23 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 4.79 Pct
North_African -
North_Atlantic 4.74 Pct
North_Caucasian 6.77 Pct
North_Sea 3.95 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian 0.20 Pct
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.22 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 1.59 Pct
West_Med 8.19 Pct


And here is a Macedonian from Bitola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitola), N.Macedonia:

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.04
2 Baltic 20.54
3 West_Med 20.49
4 North_Atlantic 19.32
5 West_Asian 11.27
6 Red_Sea 2.32
7 Siberian 0.73
8 Amerindian 0.29

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 4.3
2 Bulgarian 6.2
3 Romanian 8.78
4 Central_Greek 10.94
5 Italian_Abruzzo 11.76
6 East_Sicilian 12.24
7 Tuscan 12.29
8 West_Sicilian 12.57
9 Serbian 12.94
10 Ashkenazi 13.52
11 South_Italian 15.14
12 North_Italian 15.24
13 Moldavian 18.39
14 Algerian_Jewish 20.22
15 Italian_Jewish 20.35
16 Sephardic_Jewish 20.77
17 Hungarian 21.17
18 Croatian 21.3
19 Portuguese 22.71
20 Spanish_Extremadura 23.31

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.9% Bulgarian + 22.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.46
2 62.1% Greek_Thessaly + 37.9% Bulgarian @ 2.55
3 90.3% Greek_Thessaly + 9.7% Southwest_Russian @ 2.66
4 78.3% Bulgarian + 21.7% Italian_Jewish @ 2.67
5 70.3% Bulgarian + 29.7% Ashkenazi @ 2.7
6 92.2% Greek_Thessaly + 7.8% Lithuanian @ 2.72
7 91.1% Greek_Thessaly + 8.9% Estonian_Polish @ 2.72
8 90.5% Greek_Thessaly + 9.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.73
9 91.5% Greek_Thessaly + 8.5% Erzya @ 2.73
10 91.2% Greek_Thessaly + 8.8% Belorussian @ 2.74
11 89.7% Greek_Thessaly + 10.3% Ukrainian @ 2.75
12 91.1% Greek_Thessaly + 8.9% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.79
13 91.6% Greek_Thessaly + 8.4% Kargopol_Russian @ 2.84
14 89.9% Greek_Thessaly + 10.1% South_Polish @ 2.87
15 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% Estonian @ 2.87
16 90.9% Greek_Thessaly + 9.1% Polish @ 2.89
17 89.7% Greek_Thessaly + 10.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.91
18 87% Greek_Thessaly + 13% Croatian @ 2.92
19 73.1% Bulgarian + 26.9% South_Italian @ 2.92
20 85.3% Greek_Thessaly + 14.7% Moldavian @ 2.94

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 24.15
2 West_Med 16.73
3 North_Sea 15.68
4 Atlantic 11.36
5 Baltic 11.28
6 Eastern_Euro 9.76
7 West_Asian 9.09
8 Red_Sea 1.79
9 Amerindian 0.12
10 Siberian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 5.7
2 Greek 8
3 Bulgarian 9.91
4 Ashkenazi 10.72
5 Central_Greek 10.78
6 Romanian 11.15
7 Italian_Abruzzo 11.36
8 Tuscan 11.55
9 East_Sicilian 11.8
10 West_Sicilian 12.12
11 Serbian 13.19
12 South_Italian 13.81
13 North_Italian 14.97
14 Italian_Jewish 16.67
15 Algerian_Jewish 17.97
16 Moldavian 18.27
17 Sephardic_Jewish 18.33
18 Hungarian 20.04
19 Croatian 20.56
20 Austrian 20.67

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% Chuvash @ 5.09
2 92.7% Greek_Thessaly + 7.3% East_Finnish @ 5.14
3 93% Greek_Thessaly + 7% Erzya @ 5.15
4 94.8% Greek_Thessaly + 5.2% Mari @ 5.15
5 92.7% Greek_Thessaly + 7.3% Kargopol_Russian @ 5.16
6 93.3% Greek_Thessaly + 6.7% Finnish @ 5.26
7 84.8% Greek_Thessaly + 15.2% Serbian @ 5.27
8 93.4% Greek_Thessaly + 6.6% Southwest_Finnish @ 5.29
9 94% Greek_Thessaly + 6% Estonian @ 5.29
10 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% North_Swedish @ 5.32
11 93.5% Greek_Thessaly + 6.5% Southwest_Russian @ 5.32
12 92.9% Greek_Thessaly + 7.1% Ukrainian @ 5.34
13 93.6% Greek_Thessaly + 6.4% Polish @ 5.35
14 94.1% Greek_Thessaly + 5.9% Estonian_Polish @ 5.35
15 94.2% Greek_Thessaly + 5.8% Belorussian @ 5.37
16 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.38
17 93.4% Greek_Thessaly + 6.6% South_Polish @ 5.4
18 95% Greek_Thessaly + 5% Lithuanian @ 5.41
19 91.4% Greek_Thessaly + 8.6% Hungarian @ 5.41
20 94.2% Greek_Thessaly + 5.8% Russian_Smolensk @ 5.42


And my own Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 20.78
2 Baltic 20.63
3 North_Atlantic 20.33
4 West_Med 19.35
5 West_Asian 12.86
6 Red_Sea 4.12
7 Amerindian 1.39
8 Northeast_African 0.4
9 Siberian 0.11
10 East_Asian 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Bulgarian 4.38
2 Greek_Thessaly 5.97
3 Romanian 6.38
4 Serbian 10.67
5 Italian_Abruzzo 12.45
6 Central_Greek 12.48
7 Tuscan 12.87
8 East_Sicilian 13.77
9 West_Sicilian 14.04
10 North_Italian 14.88
11 Moldavian 15.97
12 Ashkenazi 16.05
13 South_Italian 16.86
14 Hungarian 18.81
15 Croatian 19.02
16 Austrian 21.13
17 Portuguese 21.54
18 Spanish_Extremadura 22.12
19 Spanish_Galicia 22.24
20 Algerian_Jewish 22.5

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.5% Central_Greek + 39.5% Croatian @ 1.76
2 56.2% Central_Greek + 43.8% Moldavian @ 1.88
3 67.2% Central_Greek + 32.8% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.89
4 70.7% Central_Greek + 29.3% Polish @ 1.96
5 68.4% Central_Greek + 31.6% Ukrainian @ 2.03
6 51.4% Moldavian + 48.6% South_Italian @ 2.03
7 60.2% South_Italian + 39.8% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.06
8 53.8% East_Sicilian + 46.2% Moldavian @ 2.19
9 53% South_Italian + 47% Croatian @ 2.23
10 78.5% Bulgarian + 21.5% East_Sicilian @ 2.31
11 61.5% South_Italian + 38.5% Ukrainian @ 2.33
12 74.2% Greek_Thessaly + 25.8% Moldavian @ 2.35
13 58.2% East_Sicilian + 41.8% Croatian @ 2.35
14 76.9% Bulgarian + 23.1% Central_Greek @ 2.37
15 72% Central_Greek + 28% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.37
16 68.2% Central_Greek + 31.8% South_Polish @ 2.4
17 59.9% Bulgarian + 40.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.42
18 82.1% Bulgarian + 17.9% South_Italian @ 2.44
19 64% South_Italian + 36% Polish @ 2.44
20 65.4% South_Italian + 34.6% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.46


Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 19.43
2 West_Med 16.1
3 North_Sea 15.85
4 Eastern_Euro 13.19
5 Atlantic 11.19
6 West_Asian 10.42
7 Baltic 9.26
8 Red_Sea 3.87
9 Amerindian 0.62
10 Northeast_African 0.07

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 7.94
2 Bulgarian 9.39
3 Romanian 9.66
4 Greek 10.03
5 Serbian 10.87
6 Ashkenazi 11.87
7 Tuscan 12.47
8 Italian_Abruzzo 12.65
9 Central_Greek 12.79
10 East_Sicilian 13.66
11 West_Sicilian 14.03
12 North_Italian 15
13 Moldavian 15.95
14 South_Italian 16.35
15 Hungarian 18.23
16 Croatian 18.58
17 Austrian 18.79
18 Italian_Jewish 19.07
19 Spanish_Galicia 20
20 Portuguese 20.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.6% Greek_Thessaly + 14.4% Chuvash @ 5.26
2 88% Greek_Thessaly + 12% Mari @ 5.61
3 52.9% Serbian + 47.1% Ashkenazi @ 5.7
4 73.1% Serbian + 26.9% Cyprian @ 5.79
5 71.5% Serbian + 28.5% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.87
6 55% Moldavian + 45% Italian_Jewish @ 5.87
7 84.3% Greek_Thessaly + 15.7% East_Finnish @ 5.94
8 84.2% Greek_Thessaly + 15.8% Kargopol_Russian @ 5.95
9 84.8% Greek_Thessaly + 15.2% Erzya @ 5.95
10 71.5% Central_Greek + 28.5% East_Finnish @ 6
11 77.3% Serbian + 22.7% Samaritan @ 6.01
12 63.6% Greek_Thessaly + 36.4% Serbian @ 6.01
13 78.1% Serbian + 21.9% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.07
14 66.8% Serbian + 33.2% Italian_Jewish @ 6.1
15 59.1% Ashkenazi + 40.9% Moldavian @ 6.1
16 71.5% Central_Greek + 28.5% Kargopol_Russian @ 6.16
17 55.6% Serbian + 44.4% Central_Greek @ 6.19
18 68.6% Serbian + 31.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 6.22
19 72.5% Central_Greek + 27.5% Erzya @ 6.31
20 57.1% Moldavian + 42.9% Algerian_Jewish @ 6.31


It's quite obvious that Macedonians cluster together, both from Greece and N.Macedonia.

Keep in mind that when I am saying N.Macedonia I mean the southern half of the country!

eastara
07-04-2019, 03:57 AM
Yes, I also noticed the population of the Republic of North Macedonia, living in the SouthWest of the country is somewhat different from the North East. It is known that the North are more Shops/Torlaks, similar to NorthWestern Bulgaria and South EastSerbia.
It is possible, though that some of the population of lowland Greek Macedonia are more recent settlers from the North Macedonian mountain region. Some people think the Slavs which used to live in nowadays Greek Macedonia, South Albania, Epirus and Thessaly spoke an EASTERN Bulgarian dialect, which is now extinct. This is confirmed also by the earliest publication in Modern (not Church) Bulgarian from the Moskopole era. Where are those people now? Those who did not Hellenise moved to what is now Bulgaria or Turkish Eastern Thrace(back to Bulgaria after the Balkan wars) even in 18th, beginning of 19th centuries. This was due to the expansion of the Albanians and the reign of different Muslim warlords in the South Western Balkans. It was considered safer to live closer to Istanbul, where the Sultan could still maintain some law enforcement.

td120
07-04-2019, 11:20 AM
Kortcha(KorÁŽ) dialect has preserved some of the features of Thessaloniki dialect (which is an Eastern one).


3.2.3.1. Солунският говор е най-представителният и най-архаичният югоизточнобългарски диалект от западнорупски тип ... Тъй като много от неговите старинни особености се откриват на юг ó в Странджа, Родопите, а дори и на запад в Корчанско, Албания...etc.

...4.2.2. Крайни югозападни (не-a-) говори. В миналото тези архаични диалекти са били от югоизточен тип (срв. и досега запазените говори с редица източни особености в Костурско и Корчанско), но по-късно са изпитали влиянието на югозападните а-говори и днес имат смесен характер (вече с преобладаващо западни черти)...

Sikeliot
07-04-2019, 02:07 PM
For example, here is a Gedmatch results of a native from the town of Chalastra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalastra) near Thessaloniki, with all eight of his grandparents coming from Chalastra and going by the surname of Laskaris, which is a match of mine on Gedmatch and who also had GEDCOM before that future was still available on Gedmatch:

This person clearly does have Slavic ancestry. Similar results can be found all the way through Thessaly.

parapolitikos
02-05-2020, 09:14 PM
This picture is more important to look.
36250

Those are the Anatolian greek settlements in Macedonia.
In absolute numbers they were 40% of the population when they arrived.
Pontic Greeks and Ipirote Greek also arrived since 1991.
Constantinople Greek refugees also settled in Macedonia in mass after 1953.
So to answer your question ,no. Those ''North Greeks'' exist only on paper as they are a hypothetical population, the extreme outlier of the pre-1922 population of Macedonia, who was left unaffected . The rest pretty much intermingled completely due to intermarriages.