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R.Rocca
12-26-2013, 03:39 PM
If the recent ancient DNA findings are any indication, it looks like this combination of Y-DNA haplogroup I and mtDNA haplogroup U may have made up the majority (entirety?) of all Mesolithic Europeans. Certainly others like I(xI2), mtDNA U2, etc would need to be thrown into the discussion as well.

Of interest, I2a and U5b both have high frequencies in Basque Country and Sardinia when compared to their immediate neighbors. Earlier this year, Blasco-Ferrer made a case for Paleosardinian and Proto-Basque splitting from Pre-Proto-Basque sometime during the Mesolithic/Early Neolithic transition. Blasco's Paleosardinian toponyms are found in the center-east of the island which happens to be higher in I2a-M26.

Then we have one of Vennemann's linguistic theory that defines Old European hydronyms as being Vasconic. While some of his theories are controversial, perhaps this one deserves a closer look based on genetics alone?

rms2
12-26-2013, 04:05 PM
I have long thought that R1b was not the original Vasconic y haplogroup but merely became prevalent via admixture and drift. It never made sense to me that the bulk of R1b could have been Vasconic speaking and yet, despite its overwhelming predominance in Western Europe, preserve that speech only among a numerically small, isolated people. It seemed more likely to me that R1b was Indo-European speaking and that the Basques had become mostly R1b over time and yet had somehow managed to preserve their speech. Otherwise you have the far less likely scenario of a very large population totally dropping its original language or languages and becoming IE-speaking versus a small, non-IE group simply acquiring a new predominant y haplogroup. The smallest degree of change makes the most sense to me.

I also think we, as males, tend to underplay the influence of women in transmitting language. If the Basques had a matrilocal tradition, as I read somewhere that they did, then the groom went to live with the bride's family. That means the children would have been raised speaking mom's language, and the husband would have had to speak it, too. Such a tradition is tailor-made for the female-vectored preservation of a language and the masking of a y-dna transfer from another ethno-linguistic culture.

ADW_1981
12-26-2013, 04:19 PM
If the recent ancient DNA findings are any indication, it looks like this combination of Y-DNA haplogroup I and mtDNA haplogroup U may have made up the majority (entirety?) of all Mesolithic Europeans. Certainly others like I(xI2), mtDNA U2, etc would need to be thrown into the discussion as well.

Of interest, I2a and U5b both have high frequencies in Basque Country and Sardinia when compared to their immediate neighbors. Earlier this year, Blasco-Ferrer made a case for Paleosardinian and Proto-Basque splitting from Pre-Proto-Basque sometime during the Mesolithic/Early Neolithic transition. Blasco's Paleosardinian toponyms are found in the center-east of the island which happens to be higher in I2a-M26.

Then we have one of Vennemann's linguistic theory that defines Old European hydronyms as being Vasconic. While some of his theories are controversial, perhaps this one deserves a closer look based on genetics alone?

Certainly when we look at Sardinian YDNA being primarily I2a1(YDNA I is northern Euro HG) + G2a3 (LBK farmer) as the two primary founding lineages of the island, we can see how Sardinia was first settled. It looks like all of the R1b there is probably mostly Italian U152 and various others, and Phoenician R1b-V88 :P

GailT
12-26-2013, 04:25 PM
Of interest, I2a and U5b both have high frequencies in Basque Country and Sardinia when compared to their immediate neighbors.

Most of the Basque U5b are in a single subclade of U5b1f (which I'll tentatively call U5b1f1a) that I estimate to be about 3000 years old, so the high frequency of U5b among the Basque is likely due to a recent founder event. If you exclude U5b1f, the Basque U5 frequency and its distribution among U5 subclades are very similar to surrounding populations.

So in terms of the origins of the Basque, the mtDNA seems to indicate a common maternal history with other populations in southwestern Europe, and the high U5b1f frequency seems to indicate cultural or geographic separation and genetic drift in the mtDNA during the last 3000 years.

The Sardinian samples have a large percentage of U5b3a1a. So I think this indicates the difficulty of using uniparental DNA to assess origins of small populations in which genetic drift might affect the haplogroup distribution.

GailT
12-26-2013, 04:38 PM
If the Basques had a matrilocal tradition, as I read somewhere that they did, then the groom went to live with the bride's family. That means the children would have been raised speaking mom's language, and the husband would have had to speak it, too. Such a tradition is tailor-made for the female-vectored preservation of a language and the masking of a y-dna transfer from another ethno-linguistic culture.

I think this is supported by the mtDNA. U5b1f has an ancient Iberian origin, at least 10,000 ybp, and I would guess that U5b1f1a was introduced recently into a small founding Basque population. Approximately 11% of the Basque are U5b1f1a, and I think it is remarkable to find such a high percentage of a relatively young subclade within a population.

Rathna
12-26-2013, 05:27 PM
Thanks to GailT for the inputs. Theories expressed by the others don’t fit:
1) U5b3 is the unique haplogroup that scholars said born in Italy (so far) and is very ancient
2) R-V88 not only has 24 “Sardinian” SNPs, but its subclade more diffused (M18) is in Corsica at an overwhelming percentage not known elsewhere, and Corsican Y cannot be ascribed to Phoenicians.

Jean M
12-26-2013, 05:55 PM
Of interest, I2a and U5b both have high frequencies in Basque Country and Sardinia when compared to their immediate neighbors. Earlier this year, Blasco-Ferrer made a case for Paleosardinian and Proto-Basque splitting from Pre-Proto-Basque sometime during the Mesolithic/Early Neolithic transition. Blasco's Paleosardinian toponyms are found in the center-east of the island which happens to be higher in I2a-M26.

Then we have one of Vennemann's linguistic theory that defines Old European hydronyms as being Vasconic. While some of his theories are controversial, perhaps this one deserves a closer look based on genetics alone?

I can't agree. There are several objections:


Hunter-gathers spread over an area the size of Europe would not all be speaking the same language. See The Linguistic Diversity of Aboriginal Europe http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=980
Vennemann's theory on Old European hydronyms cannot be supported linguistically. Larry Trask, as expert on Basque, pointed out that 'None of the roots or suffixes listed by Vennemann for Old European looks anything like Basque, save for the root *iz- ‘‘water’’.
Sardinia was settled in the Neolithic by people making Cardial pottery. These people were not local hunter-gatherers. Far from it. The island had been empty for a thousand years before they arrived. The Cardial makers came by sea from the east and also moved up the Garonne to what is now Gascony. So the I2a link could relate to Cardial-makers. Said Cardial people undoubtedly had an ultimate origin in the Near East. They carried Near Eastern stock and seed, not to mention bringing pottery techniques of Near Eastern origin. I2 seems to be a European Mesolithic haplogroup that was caught up in the Cardial strand of the Neolithic (or part of it). That would explain why modern-day Sardinians appear strong in the autosomal element EEF (see Lazaridis 2013 http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1756-Ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three-ancestral-populations-for-Europeans ) But:
Sardinia had a significant increase in population with the arrival of copper-working c. 4000 BC, probably from the Balkans.
Basque appears to be a Copper Age language.

newtoboard
12-26-2013, 10:28 PM
The problems I see in addition to Jean's list is that I doubt all Mesolithic Europeans belonged to the same lineage. I think R1a, I1 and N1c will be found eventually. Plus I2's range was probably larger than the area proposed for having a Vasconic substrate (doesn't even include all of Western Europe).

ADW_1981
12-27-2013, 02:22 PM
I can't agree. There are several objections:


Hunter-gathers spread over an area the size of Europe would not all be speaking the same language. See The Linguistic Diversity of Aboriginal Europe http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=980
Vennemann's theory on Old European hydronyms cannot be supported linguistically. Larry Trask, as expert on Basque, pointed out that 'None of the roots or suffixes listed by Vennemann for Old European looks anything like Basque, save for the root *iz- ‘‘water’’.
Sardinia was settled in the Neolithic by people making Cardial pottery. These people were not local hunter-gatherers. Far from it. The island had been empty for a thousand years before they arrived. The Cardial makers came by sea from the east and also moved up the Garonne to what is now Gascony. So the I2a link could relate to Cardial-makers. Said Cardial people undoubtedly had an ultimate origin in the Near East. They carried Near Eastern stock and seed, not to mention bringing pottery techniques of Near Eastern origin. I2 seems to be a European Mesolithic haplogroup that was caught up in the Cardial strand of the Neolithic (or part of it). That would explain why modern-day Sardinians appear strong in the autosomal element EEF (see Lazaridis 2013 http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1756-Ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three-ancestral-populations-for-Europeans ) But:
Sardinia had a significant increase in population with the arrival of copper-working c. 4000 BC, probably from the Balkans.
Basque appears to be a Copper Age language.


I think I2a can probably be ruled out as a neolithic lineage in all cases now. I am also in agreement that the YDNA I lineage must have been swept up by incoming farmers and been absorbed into the settlement of Sardinia. The other old lineages are G2a3 and R1b-V88

Jean M
12-27-2013, 03:51 PM
I think I2a can probably be ruled out as a neolithic lineage in all cases now.

You cannot be saying that no I2a+ existed in the Neolithic. So perhaps you mean that I2a* (L460/PF3647/S238) was born in Europe before farming arrived there? We can indeed deduce that, given that we have I2a1b* (M423) as early as 6000 BC in Europe. If I understand Ken Nordvedt's tree correctly, he estimates that I2a* was born around the time of the Last Glacial Maximum. http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf

However - this is the tricky bit - its descendants did not necessarily arrive before the Neolithic where they are now found. A whole lot of haplogroup I men seem to have been involved in one migration or another from the Mesolithic onwards, right up to the movements we can actually trace in pedigrees today.

ADW_1981
12-27-2013, 05:41 PM
You cannot be saying that no I2a+ existed in the Neolithic. So perhaps you mean that I2a* (L460/PF3647/S238) was born in Europe before farming arrived there? We can indeed deduce that, given that we have I2a1b* (M423) as early as 6000 BC in Europe. If I understand Ken Nordvedt's tree correctly, he estimates that I2a* was born around the time of the Last Glacial Maximum. http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf

However - this is the tricky bit - its descendants did not necessarily arrive before the Neolithic where they are now found. A whole lot of haplogroup I men seem to have been involved in one migration or another from the Mesolithic onwards, right up to the movements we can actually trace in pedigrees today.

Well, you can say YDNA I was not likely to be responsible for the introduction of farming to Europe since the basal lineages seem to be present in Europe before this time. To your point, obviously I2a, I2, I1..etc lineages would have been swallowed up for the ride from the period between 6000 BC and present day.

The point with Sardinia is important. I-M26 and G2a3 are the oldest on the island, followed by R1b-V88 as a third correct? Can someone confirm this?

Jean M
12-27-2013, 06:55 PM
The point with Sardinia is important. I-M26 and G2a3 are the oldest on the island, followed by R1b-V88 as a third correct? Can someone confirm this?

I take it that you are talking about Paolo Francalacci et al., Low-Pass DNA Sequencing of 1200 Sardinians Reconstructs European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny, Science 341, (2013), 565. They say:


.. we can infer that when the I2a1a sub-haplogroup entered Sardinia, it had already differentiated into four founder lineages that then accumulated private Sardinian variability. Two other founder clades show similar divergence after entry into the island: one belonging to haplogroup R1b1c (xV35) (whose differentiation is identified contrasting the Sardinian data with the ISOGG and 1000 Genome data), and the other to haplogroup G2a2b-L166 (identified by divergence from a sequenced Corsican sample).

Here's the graph of Y-DNA on the island:

1112

The grey area on that graph is enlarged here to show I2 on the island:

1111

Just to clarify for other readers: the founders here represent a Neolithic influx into Sardinia. So we seem to be wandering from the question posed by the OP.

ADW_1981
12-27-2013, 07:56 PM
I take it that you are talking about Paolo Francalacci et al., Low-Pass DNA Sequencing of 1200 Sardinians Reconstructs European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny, Science 341, (2013), 565. They say:


Just to clarify for other readers: the founders here represent a Neolithic influx into Sardinia. So we seem to be wandering from the question posed by the OP.

Thanks for posting that information. I think it is relevant to the OP topic at least as it concerns YDNA, founding lineages, and pre-IE language. If there is any connection between YDNA and linguistics, we should be looking at Basque/Sardinian language(s) being spoken by G2a + I2 men during the neolithic, which may have overlaid an even older set of languages spoken by hunter gatherer YDNA I men.

I know that there is not much support for Vasconic and it's probably an oversimplification anyhow.

Jean M
12-27-2013, 08:11 PM
.. we should be looking at Basque/Sardinian language(s) being spoken ... during the neolithic....

That has been suggested by one linguist. Bengtson, J. D. 2011. The Basque Language: History and Origin, International Journal of Modern Anthropology, 4, 43-59.

He surmised that the ancestor of Basque arrived in Aquitaine along with the Neolithic Cardial culture. Basque vocabulary includes words for domestic animals, domesticated plants, and implements used in food production, which he argued have cognates in North-West Caucasian languages, suggesting a common ancestor. Scorn has been poured upon this idea by several linguists.

I have pointed out in AJ that Euskara appears to be a language from the age of metal. It includes indigenous Basque words relating to agriculture, wheeled vehicles and metallurgy, such as shepherd (artzain), millet (artatxiki - formerly arto), wine (ardo), cart (gurdi), wheel (gurpil from *gurdi-bil, meaning cart-round), smith ([h]arotz), iron (burdina), lead (berun), gold (urre), and silver (zillar or urre-zuri - literally white gold).

So I suspect that the language ancestral to Basque and Palaeo-Sardinian arrived from the Balkans c. 4000 BC (when archaeology indicates a population expansion, new settlements, etc), rather than in the early Neolithic. That would fit with what Francalacci et al deduced:



.. clades of E, R, and G that show Sardinian specific variability of 25 to 30 SNPs are consistent with further expansion in the Late Neolithic (~5500 to 6000 years ago)

That is E1b1b1b2, R1b1a2 and G2a3.

Rathna
12-28-2013, 04:11 AM
I have pointed out in AJ that Euskara appears to be a language from the age of metal. It includes indigenous Basque words relating to agriculture, wheeled vehicles and metallurgy, such as shepherd (artzain), millet (artatxiki - formerly arto), wine (ardo), cart (gurdi), wheel (gurpil from *gurdi-bil, meaning cart-round), smith ([h]arotz), iron (burdina), lead (berun), gold (urre), and silver (zillar or urre-zuri - literally white gold).


Basque "zillar" is too much similar to "silver" and "burdina" to Hebrew "בַּרְזֶל" (see Latin "ferrum" from "*fersom/*bherdom" probably of Middle Eastern origin) for not being linked, etc.

Rathna
12-28-2013, 09:48 AM
Basque "zillar" is too much similar to "silver" and "burdina" to Hebrew "בַּרְזֶל" (see Latin "ferrum" from "*fersom/*bherdom" probably of Middle Eastern origin) for not being linked, etc.

The first word, "silver", reconstructed like *silVbVr (see Mallory/Adams 2006, p. 79) could be a loanword of Ibero-Celt (silaPur) from Basque and diffused with Bell Beakers to Central Europe. We find it in fact in German and Balto-Slavic languages: ON silfr, OE seolfor, Goth silubr, Lith sidabras, Rus serebrò. The IE word for "silver", like Lat argentum, remained in those Indo-Europeans who, as I think, peopled Iberia from Italy but weren't reached from their expansion to Central Europe.
The word for "iron" is believed of Middle Eastern origin, and we know that "iron" was worked by Hittites/Caucasians and diffused after the fall of the Hittite Empire (about 1200 BC). The reconstructed form of Latin "ferrum" from *fersom and which presupposes *bherdom could explain Basque burdina.
About the last origin of the word perhaps it could be linked in some way with the IE word for "metal" (*h1roudhòs) seen that Hittites were Indo-Europeans.

R.Rocca
12-29-2013, 02:27 PM
You could be right on many or all counts as my post was only opening up the discussion. I will add however the following points:


I can't agree. There are several objections:

Hunter-gathers spread over an area the size of Europe would not all be speaking the same language. See The Linguistic Diversity of Aboriginal Europe http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=980


If R1a and R1b spoke Indo-European languages, I don't know why it would be difficult to have all haplogroup I Europeans speaking a single language family (notice I didn't say language). Besides, I2 began with one man speaking one language.



Vennemann's theory on Old European hydronyms cannot be supported linguistically. Larry Trask, as expert on Basque, pointed out that 'None of the roots or suffixes listed by Vennemann for Old European looks anything like Basque, save for the root *iz- ‘‘water’’.


I'm sure reconstructing an 8,000 year old language is an almost impossible feat, given the language influences and replacements that have occurred in Europe. Perhaps the root *iz- alone is good enough. Humans have been heavily bound to coastal areas throughout most of our existence.



Sardinia was settled in the Neolithic by people making Cardial pottery. These people were not local hunter-gatherers. Far from it. The island had been empty for a thousand years before they arrived. The Cardial makers came by sea from the east and also moved up the Garonne to what is now Gascony. So the I2a link could relate to Cardial-makers. Said Cardial people undoubtedly had an ultimate origin in the Near East. They carried Near Eastern stock and seed, not to mention bringing pottery techniques of Near Eastern origin. I2 seems to be a European Mesolithic haplogroup that was caught up in the Cardial strand of the Neolithic (or part of it).


While I2a has been found as a small percentage of Cardial Culture samples, that is not to say that they were not descendants of Iberian hunter-gatherers that got swept up in the Cardial Culture advance. Let's not forget that the only Megalithic Y-DNA we have to date is I2a-M26 and it is not really where one would expect it (Paris). I don't think it would surprise anyone if farming techniques were learned by I2a+U Mesolithics who then went on to build the Megalithic monuments of Western Europe.



That would explain why modern-day Sardinians appear strong in the autosomal element EEF (see Lazaridis 2013 http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1756-Ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three-ancestral-populations-for-Europeans )

Sorry, but there is no way we can pretend to know the autosomal makeup of Mesolithic Sardinians based on modern day Sardinians. In all likelihood they would have resembled the La Brana hunter-gatherers.



Sardinia had a significant increase in population with the arrival of copper-working c. 4000 BC, probably from the Balkans.


Agreed, but at the same time we see a big population spike in mainland Italy and we can't attribute it to I2a there. As a side note, if R1b was not responsible for the Stelae, then a Copper Age Balkan group may have been.

rokousa
07-31-2014, 09:59 AM
I heard that Basque and Fulani people had started to drink milk in marmara. Who knows why they became angry at each other, but they were split from each other’s and from the group; evil tongues says that they had fight over cows and milk production.
did euscara is connected with sahara?

Jean M
07-31-2014, 11:29 AM
If R1a and R1b spoke Indo-European languages, I don't know why it would be difficult to have all haplogroup I Europeans speaking a single language family (notice I didn't say language).....

there is no way we can pretend to know the autosomal makeup of Mesolithic Sardinians based on modern day Sardinians. In all likelihood they would have resembled the La Brana hunter-gatherers.

Rich - sorry to only reply now. I only noticed your reply when this thread was bumped up.



As Johanna Nichols has proved with native North American languages, what you get with hunter-gatherers scattered across a continent is a whole lot of different languages and language families. People who don't meet up to chat in a thousand years are not going to speak the same language. It seems very likely that by the time people emerged from their LGM shelters and moved northwards, each refuge would have developed a totally different language (or language family) from any other refuge. So what you would get is encounters in let's say Jutland or Finland between reindeer hunters from Iberia speaking one language and ditto from the Black Sea region speaking a completely different one. And so on. Those in the Italian refuge seem to have made less impact, but they too would have a different language.
Sardinia was not settled in the Mesolithic. Hunter-gatherers needed more animals/territory than the Mediterranean islands could supply. So they might make visits, but did not stay. There is no sign of them in Sardinia for a thousand years before the first farmers arrived.
La Brana 1 had Y-DNA C1a2. Not a lot of them around now.
Y-DNA I2 was found in some Mesolithic foragers in Scandinavia, but that was a lineage of I2 that did not survive. The I2 that did survive comes from a group of foragers who took up farming. It travelled with Cardial Ware to Sardinia (see the Francalacci et al Sardinian DNA paper with time estimates*). Cardial Ware also went up the Garonne to S France north of the Pyrennees, which I assume is why it appears in the Basques.


* http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1756-Ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three-ancestral-populations-for-Europeans&p=24966&viewfull=1#post24966

RCO
07-31-2014, 12:27 PM
As Johanna Nichols has proved with native North American languages, what you get with hunter-gatherers scattered across a continent is a whole lot of different languages and language families. People who don't meet up to chat in a thousand years are not going to speak the same language. It seems very likely that by the time people emerged from their LGM shelters and moved northwards, each refuge would have developed a totally different language (or language family) from any other refuge. So what you would get is encounters in let's say Jutland or Finland between reindeer hunters from Iberia speaking one language and ditto from the Black Sea region speaking a completely different one. And so on. Those in the Italian refuge seem to have made less impact, but they too would have a different language.


In South America the situation was different, perhaps with a similar development of a dominant language more similar to Eurasia and the PIE language. Tupi Language Family in Lowland South America can resemble in some aspects the expansion of the IE Language family. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0035025

Jean M
07-31-2014, 02:27 PM
In South America the situation was different, perhaps with a similar development of a dominant language more similar to Eurasia and the PIE language. Tupi Language Family in Lowland South America can resemble in some aspects the expansion of the IE Language family.

Tupi is just one of many Native American languages in South America, as I understand it, though I am no expert. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_South_America

The paper is interesting though. Thanks for the link. I can see what you mean I think. The Americas did have an independent Neolithic, which could have spread certain languages, just as happened on other continents. Europe is unusual in having another linguistic wave after that.

rokousa
07-31-2014, 03:30 PM
Basque Country ...
Then we have one of Vennemann's linguistic theory that defines Old European hydronyms as being Vasconic. ...deserve a closer look based on genetics alone?
Iberians including Spaniards and Basques show relatedness to (native Tunisian) Berbers, suggesting that the gene flow of 7th century AD invaders was also low in Iberians.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21385325

Tunisian Berbers appear to be closely related to Iberians (Spaniards and Basques), indicating that the 7(th) century AD gene flow of invaders was low in Iberians and that the main part of their genetic pool came after the Northward Saharan migration, when hyper-arid conditions were established in Sahara (before 6000 BC). Other studied populations belong to the old Mediterranean substratum, which has been present in the area since pre-Neolithic times.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704

Our HLA data show that both southern from Ghannouch and northern Tunisians are of a Berber substratum in spite of the successive incursions (particularly, the 7th-8th century A.D. Arab invasion) occurred in Tunisia. It is also the case of other North Africans and Iberians.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309

did euscara come from sahara?
uri (water)=urine?

gravetti
07-31-2014, 09:04 PM
•Y-DNA I2 was found in some Mesolithic foragers in Scandinavia, but that was a lineage of I2 that did not survive.
How do you know that?

Jean M
07-31-2014, 09:29 PM
•Y-DNA I2 was found in some Mesolithic foragers in Scandinavia, but that was a lineage of I2 that did not survive.
How do you know that?

That was Ken Nordvedt's view.

alan
07-31-2014, 10:55 PM
I do not believe in Vasconic but believe the expansion from the western refuge as far as the Baltic and beyond probably led to the fission and divergence from a language that came from the south-west. It also took maybe 6 millenia for western derived hunters to reach their maximum extent c. 9000BC so the divergence in western-derived groups must have been very great even during their expansion period. It is about c. 17000 years since the western hunters emerged out of their refugia. So, there is very little hope of any reconstructable family of languages even stretching into the shakiest most speculative models. The divergence would be vast today had this group left any descendants.

I would say any languages where connections can still be detected have shared a significantly more recent common ancestor than the 17000 year old scenario I have just made. Any shaky suggestions of links between Basque and the languages of the Caucasus does not work in a western derived hunter gatherer model as the hunter gatherer cultures of the Caucasus or the areas immediately to the north and south that have been detected archaeologically were not at all related to the wave from western Europe. Even the possibility that there are still detectable links between Basque and the Caucasus or IE in itself, if it were ever to be widely accepted, would tend to indicate a more recent common ancestor perhaps at the Neolithic sort of level if not later.

There have been suggestions made very tentatively that Basque has some very deep time link to IE. Similar distant shared ancestry with IE has been made of some Caucasus languages as well as Uralic and to a lesser degree Altaic and some even more speculative linkages have been suggested. When you put that all together it suggests to me that Basque is more likely of eastern origin.

Looking at the archaeology of the old Basque area the pre-farming period can be ruled out as a possible explanation for the tentative links between Basque and IE or Caucasian for reasons I have already cited above i.e. the hunters of those areas had probably not shared common ancestry since before the LGM. The next possibility is Cardial early Neolithic. This links back along the Med. as far as the Adriatic and probably originates in the Levant. Again, if the suggested Basque links with IE, Caucasian etc were real then the distribution of Cardial does not well fit the geography of IE, Caucasian etc - certainly not within the steppe model.

So, on the surface, if the suggested deep time connections between Basque, IE and Caucasian languages have any basis in reality, they would tend to suggest that Jean's model of a post-Neolithic arrival would be supported. If the connections are wrong and Basque is a true isolate then I suppose it would open up the possibility that it is a western hunter remnant or perhaps more probably some sort of Neolithic cardial remnant.

The link of Basque with palaeo-Sardinian seems a little more popular than the other tentative ones and is geographically easy enough to believe. There are a couple of reasons for believing that a pre-farming link is not responsible for any such connection. Firstly there is, as Jean mentioned today, evidence that hunters had died out there or never settled permanently before the farmers arrived. Secondly, and I believe this is a clincher, Sardinian hunters were not part of the western Magdalenian derived groups and probably any links in the upper Palaeolithic, especially in the LGM , would have taken advantage of the lower sea levels to walk through Corsica and the very narrow sea crossing to Tuscany from the latter island. That is epigravettian hunter territory, not Magdallenian or western. The last cultural commonality between these Italian hunters and those in the Franco-Cantabrian regugium would appear to be back in the pre-LGM part of the Gravettian - an enormous time depth and too deep to explain the Basque-palaeo Sardinian links.

gravetti
08-01-2014, 05:19 AM
Thanks Jean.

rokousa
08-02-2014, 06:42 AM
•Y-DNA I2 was found in some Mesolithic foragers in Scandinavia, but that was a lineage of I2 that did not survive.
How do you know that?

yeah...that lineage come from Mars....heloooouuuu....

Christina
04-25-2015, 04:34 AM
FWIW, there is likely some merit to the OP's contentions. Long ago Cavalli Sforza made the (still valid) point of using all tools at our disposal (genetics, language, history), to solve the puzzle. Here is my tiny piece, FWIW.

I can report as some of you doubtlessly know that the historical sources, all written by Romans, state that at one third of Sardinia was inhabited by people from the Iberian peninsula. Now, ancient sources are notoriously fanciful at times, but this does not appear to be one of those examples of inventing mythical origins.

If Romans encountered people in Sardinia in 500 BC with an Iberian-like or Vasconic language and a tradition of Iberian origin, this is evidence for some of the OP's theories.

GailT
04-25-2015, 01:19 PM
If Romans encountered people in Sardinia in 500 BC with an Iberian-like or Vasconic language and a tradition of Iberian origin, this is evidence for some of the OP's theories.

No, it would be evidence of a link between Sardinians and Basques before 500 BC, most likely in the Neolithic or copper age. It is not evidence of either these cultures being present in these locations in the Mesolithic. See Jean's response (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1767-I2a-mtDNA-U-Vasconic-Mesolithic-European&p=24607&viewfull=1#post24607) to the OP.