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Aedmund
07-02-2019, 09:56 AM
Hello all,

One of my ancestral lines is confirmed Z49+. Another likely match is confirmed S8183>S20782.

This line's surname is very common in the North-West, however there are no close matches on FTDNA's surname project (none beyond 12 markers). I find this quite surprising, although perhaps not entirely unexpected given that common surnames often have multiple origins.

I was wondering if anyone else here is Z49+ in/around the North-West?

More generally, I am also interested in the arrival of Z49 into Britain, so any discussion on this would be welcome!

Many thanks.

G Livesey
07-02-2019, 10:06 AM
Hello all,

One of my ancestral lines is confirmed Z49+. Another likely match is confirmed S8183>S20782.

This line's surname is very common in the North-West, however there are no close matches on FTDNA's surname project (none beyond 12 markers). I find this quite surprising, although perhaps not entirely unexpected given that common surnames often have multiple origins.

I was wondering if anyone else here is Z49+ in/around the North-West?

More generally, I am also interested in the arrival of Z49 into Britain, so any discussion on this would be welcome!

Many thanks.

Hi Aedmund.

Have you joined R-U152 Project? If you haven't I recommend you do. You can get some good help there.

My family is also from the North-West, but my paternal line is on the R-Z56 branch of R-U152. When did R-Z49 arrive in Britain? The same question for my line.
Good luck with your research.

Aedmund
07-02-2019, 10:15 AM
Thanks for the reply,

I have a suspicion a lot of U152 may have arrived in North West England shortly before the Normans – Edward the Confessor was known to have had lots of connections in/around Normandy & Flanders and possibly brought men back with him to help patrol the Scottish border. This is attested by the relatively large amount of Dutch & Norman surnames in Lancashire (which also seems to be a hotspot for U152 in England?).

I am in the U152 group, but my father's Y-STR numbers are quite unusual and seem to be peculiar to the S20782 branch so I'm hitting a bit of a brick wall.

G Livesey
07-02-2019, 11:01 AM
Thanks for the reply,

I have a suspicion a lot of U152 may have arrived in North West England shortly before the Normans – Edward the Confessor was known to have had lots of connections in/around Normandy & Flanders and possibly brought men back with him to help patrol the Scottish border. This is attested by the relatively large amount of Dutch & Norman surnames in Lancashire (which also seems to be a hotspot for U152 in England?).

I am in the U152 group, but my father's Y-STR numbers are quite unusual and seem to be peculiar to the S20782 branch so I'm hitting a bit of a brick wall.

U152 has a presence in Britain since Roman times. I suspect the period before the Norman conquest with the coming of the Saxons would have seen the arrival of many U152. More so the L2 branches. Others with a better knowledge of Z49 would be able to have a better idea regarding that branch. I would think though its more likely pre-Norman.

ahead01
07-03-2019, 09:42 PM
I am Z49>Z142, and have traced my family back to Dalston Parish, Cumbria (near Carlisle). I like to think of my first Y-ancestor in England as a Gallic tribesman stationed on Hadrian's wall, but that's just me!

MitchellSince1893
07-03-2019, 10:24 PM
I am Z49>Z142, and have traced my family back to Dalston Parish, Cumbria (near Carlisle). I like to think of my first Y-ancestor in England as a Gallic tribesman stationed on Hadrian's wall, but that's just me!
One of my closest SNP and STR matches MRCA is from Brough, Westmorland in NW England. He is able to trace his paternal line back to mid 1700s. Like me he is Z49>Z142>Z12222 etc
Our shared MRCA lived around 1175 AD.

G Livesey
07-04-2019, 12:03 AM
I am Z49>Z142, and have traced my family back to Dalston Parish, Cumbria (near Carlisle). I like to think of my first Y-ancestor in England as a Gallic tribesman stationed on Hadrian's wall, but that's just me!

Could be. I think the impact of the Saxons was not as great in the North West as in the South. As you can see, my Avatar is of the Roman XX legion. This is my half serious take on my possible paternal line arrival in Britain. There was a veterans settlement at the Roman fort less than 10 miles from Livesey, my ancestral home. :)

Gwydion
07-06-2019, 04:03 PM
I am Z49+, Z142- and many of the samples which share my final Y-DNA originate in Northwest England. From what I have discovered based on research two are from what's now the Greater Manchester area, one from Garstang north of Preston, and one which believes their ancestor may have been from Furness in what is now Cumbria. I haven't proven it with records yet but I believe my ancestors were Scottish, likely from the West/Southwest, though my surname is also common in Lancashire and elsewhere in N. England/Scotland.

I personally think while U152 isn't typically associated with the Norse, in my case it might be. S8183 has a strong showing in Sweden and NE Europe generally for example. What stands out for me is the almost completely northwest coastal nature of the samples for my Y-DNA in Britain (and an Irishman with a surname by far most common in the east) but most importantly sharing my Y-DNA with a man with a fairly rare and distinctively Highland Scottish surname most associated with the Outer Hebrides and Skye and which traditionally claimed Norse descent. Lewis and Skye are remote and aside from a Norse migration I am not sure what else would connect the Outer Hebrides/Northwest Highlands to Ireland, Furness, Lancashire, Cheshire, etc.

Combined with a fairly late TMRCA with a Northern German (Iain McDonald's estimate starts at 444 AD) and another continental match with a Norwegian man, the North Atlantic/Irish Sea concentration of the insular samples for my final Y-DNA strikes me as a Norwegian Viking era spread. Of course my own surname is of Norse origins so I suppose it would make sense.

Aedmund
07-06-2019, 07:22 PM
Thanks Gwydion, that is all very interesting. I remember a U152 distribution map for Britain put Kent as the highest, and I think Lancashire was also one of the higher ones?

If my subclade is correct, it doesn't seem to have a particular link with Scandinavia, another poster on here has connected it to the Adriatic Sea, although that doesn't necessarily rule out a Norse connection? The closest match I have at 12 markers is Swedish, and is S8183+, but not my subclade, so our MCRA must be very distant.

Perhaps my limited amount of Y-matches is simply due to a 'thin' paternal line? From genealogical records, in my paternal line it seems each father has one or two sons with many daughters, and only one son producing further sons for at least 4-5 generations.

Aedmund
07-09-2019, 12:04 PM
Further to my previous points, I'd like to hear if anybody has any information or comments about U152 in Lancashire being, at least partially, due to the Flanders connection. There are many surnames in a concentrated region of Lancashire such as Molyneux, Fawkes, Fleming, which can be traced to Flanders and all remained strongly Catholic making a group with strong internal group with intermarriage along religious lines post-Henry VIII. There is speculation of a link to Tongres with my surname, which is a U152 hotspot itself.

G Livesey
07-09-2019, 12:26 PM
Further to my previous points, I'd like to hear if anybody has any information or comments about U152 in Lancashire being, at least partially, due to the Flanders connection. There are many surnames in a concentrated region of Lancashire such as Molyneux, Fawkes, Fleming, which can be traced to Flanders and all remained strongly Catholic making a group with strong internal group with intermarriage along religious lines post-Henry VIII. There is speculation of a link to Tongres with my surname, which is a U152 hotspot itself.

Which subclades of U152 in particular are in the hotspot?

I think U152 can be too general a description. I feel you might be referring to some subclades of R-L2, which is such a large group compared to the other subclades of U152, such as Z56 and Z36 and can have very different distributions on the continent.

Aedmund
07-09-2019, 12:38 PM
Thanks for the reply, unfortunately I'm not sure which subclade is associated with Tongeren region in particular. I realise this is within the realm of speculation, but I think another poster has brought up the possible Flemish and Norman connection with U152 in the north-west. It would be interesting to do an analysis on Lancashire Catholic surnames and see if these have a higher U152 frequency but that is beyond my abilities...