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J Man
08-23-2012, 01:34 PM
I am quite interested in the origin and spread of haplogroup J2a. Most believe that J2a originated in either the Levant or northern Mesopotamia and was part of the first human groups to domesticate plants and animals in this region. From these areas of the Near East J2a then began migrating to other lands initially in search of more fertile lands to farm. Obviously later migrations during the Copper and Bronze ages right up until the Middle Ages probably also helped spread J2a into Europe and parts of North Africa and Central Asia. There is a good chance then I think that the originators of the Sumerian and other ancient Near Eastern civilizations may have initially been dominated by haplogroup J2a. One thing that is interesting and important to point out I think is that so far the dominant Y-DNA haplogroup of the early Neolithic farmers in Europe has turned out to be haplogroup G. No J2a has been found at all so far. I think this may point to J2a being a rather late entrant into continental Europe from the Near East. On the other hand maybe some J2a was present in the Mediterranean areas of Europe since Neolithic times. Here is a link with some good background information on haplogroup J2a.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_(Y-DNA)

DMXX
09-27-2012, 10:21 AM
Despite not having enough aDNA to back the assertion, the correlation between Y-DNA J2a and the neolithic expansion is pretty much a given based on the modern distribution in Eurasia.

Based on Y-DNA STR and subclade diversity (numerous studies), it seems that the area encompassing Turkey and Iran is where Y-DNA J2a first arose. It may have happened elsewhere, but the gross assortment of subclades in this part of the world leads me to suspect there wasn't some form of prehistoric demic mass migration from somewhere else (i.e. the Persian Gulf, which was once an ecological hotspot).

I am quite interested in the J2a found in Central Asia, particularly among the Kazakhs. I wonder if they cluster better with North Caucasians or South-Central Asians?

J Man
09-27-2012, 03:58 PM
^Yes I am quite sure that J2a was present among the earliest farming communities in the northern parts of the Fertile Crescent. For some reason though it did not expand in large numbers along with G2a into mainland Europe during the Neolithic. It is too early really though to know for sure as some J2a could still turn up in some of the Mediterranean areas of Europe in Neolithic remains I think. However it does seem more likely now that J2a started to spread out in large numbers in all directions during the early Bronze Age with new Bronze technologies.

I agree that the J2a found among Central Asians such as the Kazakhs is interesting. I am of the opinion that the J2a found there was part of the very early Neolithic or Bronze Age communities that became Iranian peoples. They were later assimilated by the Turkic tribes that swept into Central Asia from much later.

DMXX
09-27-2012, 06:59 PM
^Yes I am quite sure that J2a was present among the earliest farming communities in the northern parts of the Fertile Crescent. For some reason though it did not expand in large numbers along with G2a into mainland Europe during the Neolithic. It is too early really though to know for sure as some J2a could still turn up in some of the Mediterranean areas of Europe in Neolithic remains I think. However it does seem more likely now that J2a started to spread out in large numbers in all directions during the early Bronze Age with new Bronze technologies.

I agree that the J2a found among Central Asians such as the Kazakhs is interesting. I am of the opinion that the J2a found there was part of the very early Neolithic or Bronze Age communities that became Iranian peoples. They were later assimilated by the Turkic tribes that swept into Central Asia from much later.

It's the timing of this sweep I'm most interested in. We know of post-BMAC agriculturalists entering the Tarim Basin around 500 B.C. IIRC from the Pamirs. There's also, if memory serves right, a vocabulary set donated to the Tocharians from agriculturalists.

The J2a found in Kazakhs certainly stemmed from a more south-easterly source, but the question is, when, and who were they?

J Man
09-28-2012, 09:04 PM
The J2a in Kazakhs may have come from the people called ''Sarts''. They were sedentary peoples of Central Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

newtoboard
11-28-2012, 06:19 PM
Is it also poassible that the J2a in Kazakhs came from the Caucasus or Iran?

Hanna
04-27-2013, 08:01 AM
Does anybody know where J2a4h is common?
Is it common among Jews?

J Man
08-30-2014, 07:42 PM
Does anybody know where J2a4h is common?
Is it common among Jews?

It is quite common everywhere J2a men are found. Yes it is also found among Jews.

Bane
09-01-2015, 11:54 AM
Look like J-YSC0000253 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YSC0000253/) has been confirmed for a sample from Iron Age Bulgaria: More Y-SNP calls from Iron and Bronze Age Bulgaria (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/more-y-snp-calls-from-iron-and-bronze-age-bulgaria/)

J Man
09-01-2015, 01:38 PM
Look like J-YSC0000253 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YSC0000253/) has been confirmed for a sample from Iron Age Bulgaria: More Y-SNP calls from Iron and Bronze Age Bulgaria (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/more-y-snp-calls-from-iron-and-bronze-age-bulgaria/)

Which culture does the J-YSC0000253 from Iron Age Bulgaria come from do you know?

Bane
09-01-2015, 02:13 PM
Which culture does the J-YSC0000253 from Iron Age Bulgaria come from do you know?

Quoting the original study:

Sample K8 was found in the Yakimova Mogila Tumulus, which dates to the Iron Age (450400 BC), near Krushare, Bulgaria. An aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods was excavated in 2008.18 A molar from one individual, probably male, was used for DNA analysis.

Pulling out the 1%: Whole-Genome Capture for the Targeted Enrichment of Ancient DNA Sequencing Libraries (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824117/)

J Man
09-01-2015, 03:22 PM
So is it confirmed 100% then that this K8 individual from the Yakimova Mogila Tumulus belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup J-YSC0000253?

J Man
09-01-2015, 04:00 PM
It does seem like there is a bit of a chance that this K8 sample may have been a bit contaminated.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2014/05/more-info-on-two-thracian-genomes-from.ht

J Man
09-01-2015, 04:07 PM
Damn it actually looks like there is a very good chance that this individual called is contaminated. Ahhh well.

J Man
10-07-2015, 01:03 PM
These are very exciting times for ancient DNA discoveries! Hopefully some more ancient Y-DNA haplogroup J2a samples will be discovered soon. Personally I now am really thinking that J2a originated somewhere around the Zagros area of Iran and may have been part of a second wave of Neolithic farmers that spread out to both the west and east from that region.

Edward J
10-15-2015, 02:03 PM
In looking at these recent J finds in this general region (including the Lengyel/Sopot/Kyjatice finds in Hungary) would these cultures/individuals likely have been part of proto Celtic societies?

Trojet
10-15-2015, 02:24 PM
In looking at these recent J finds in this general region (including the Lengyel/Sopot/Kyjatice finds in Hungary) would these cultures/individuals likely have been part of proto Celtic societies?

I would expect the Celts Y-DNA makeup to have been quite diverse. Since some of these J2 subclades were already present in central Europe by the Bronze Age, I would say that the Celts did carry some J2, but I would think that J2 was a minority lineage among Celts.

Dorkymon
02-23-2016, 07:31 PM
Note that the two CHG genomes sequenced to date courtesy of Jones et al. 2015, Kotias and Satsurblia, belonged to Y-haplogroups J and J2a. Moreover, J2 today shows peaks in frequency and diversity in and around the Caucasus. In other words, Y-haplogroup J, and in particular J2, appear to represent paternal signals of CHG admixture.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.md/2016/02/chg-admixture-in-early-western.html

Agamemnon
02-23-2016, 09:18 PM
^^ Satsurblia is J1-F4306.

J Man
03-05-2016, 08:11 PM
^^ Satsurblia is J1-F4306.

I know that we need a lot more ancient DNA before any of this can be truly answered but in the mean time it is fun to speculate. I remember a few weeks back that you mentioned that you think that Y-DNA haplogroup J2a may have adopted agriculture ''relatively late''. How late?

Agamemnon
03-05-2016, 11:08 PM
I know that we need a lot more ancient DNA before any of this can be truly answered but in the mean time it is fun to speculate. I remember a few weeks back that you mentioned that you think that Y-DNA haplogroup J2a may have adopted agriculture ''relatively late''. How late?

Probably as late as 8200 years ago, if not later.

J Man
03-05-2016, 11:33 PM
Probably as late as 8200 years ago, if not later.

And where were these J2a people living do you think? Caucasus?, Iran?, Anatolia?

Agamemnon
03-05-2016, 11:47 PM
And where were these J2a people living do you think? Caucasus?, Iran?, Anatolia?

Well, taking I0708's (the J2a-Z6048 sample from Barcın) presence in Western Anatolia roughly ~8200 years ago and the ~7000 kya old J2 sample from Sopot into account, I'd say J2a foragers were spread throughout the Near East back then, I'm pretty sure they had an important presence in the northern parts of the Near East (starting from the Taurus & Zagros, basically from Western Anatolia to the shores of the Caspian and probably even Central Asia) and the Levant. It's also possible, but not by any means likely, that J2a made it to the edges of the Pontic-Caspian steppe and the Balkans prior to the adoption of agriculture (I'm saying this because of I0211, the Karelian EHG who was J1). Mind you, I think J2a's success is due to several branches taking up agriculture locally, thereby allowing them to diversify (but again, I could be wrong). And of course, J2a must've been present in Mesopotamia for a very long time.

J Man
03-16-2016, 03:16 AM
I think that there is a very good chance that at least some of the Mesolithic Belt Caves samples from Iran will come back as some sort of J. Some J2a from there is a strong possibility I think.